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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Ina Garten’s Memoir Be Ready When the Luck Happens (with Evan Ross Katz)
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- [00:01]
Chelsea Devantes
The holidays are about spending time with.
- [00:03]
Evan Ross Katz
Your loved ones and creating magical memories that will last a lifetime. So whether it's family and friends you haven't seen in a while or those who you see all the time, share holiday magic this season with an ice cold Coca Cola. Copyright 2024 the Coca Cola Company this episode is brought to you by Disney's Mufasa the Lion King. Get tickets now for the ultimate family holiday movie experience. Reunite with the characters you and the untold story you'd never expect. Witness Mufasa's rise from orphan to king and see how the legendary villain Scar got his name. Disney's Mufasa the Lion King in theaters everywhere. Now the kingdom awaits.
- [00:54]
Chelsea Devantes
Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dig into all of the glamour and all of the trash. If you have ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy, then this might be the podcast for you. I'm your host, Chelsea Devantes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this week we are book clubbing. Be Ready when the Luck Happens, the memoir by Ina Garden. It was published just a couple weeks ago, October 2024, so it's hot off the presses now. Ina Garden is a bestselling author of many, many cookbooks. She's the star of the hit TV show Barefoot Contessa. She's an icon in the culinary world and just like a pop culture moment of her own. Now, if you're a longtime listener, you know how much I struggle to cook anything at all or really even come close to cooking anything or wrapping my head around hosting. I'm a terrible host, but I love when I go to someone's house who's a good host. So I do not have Ina's skill set in any way, and I found this book to be very inspiring. And normally foodie books, they aren't my thing, but I had a delightful time reading. However, there is so much to talk about. And please be warned, there is a trigger warning for child abuse. So always take care when listening and let's dive in. I didn't want to write papers about enriched uranium. I wanted to bake cookies. Not just because I like them, and I do, but because I saw a completely different life from the one I was living. The food business. This food business would give me the freedom and creative outlet I craved. You bake cookies, you sell cookies, and if the cookie doesn't sell, you bake something that customers will love and that will sell. It's a Business problem to solve, and it involved chocolate chip cookies. How great is that? My guest today is Evan Ross Katz, deemed the most valuable hype man in the history of television by Mike White and the Pop Culture Chronicler by gq. And you Funny by Channing Tatum via Instagram dm. Evan is a writer, podcast host, cultural commentator whose work has been published in dozens of publications including British Vogue, gq, Harper's Bazaar, Interview magazine, and Rolling Stone. He is a contributor at New York magazine's the Cut and author of the book Into Every Generation, A Slayer is Born. Okay, Evan, I am obsessed with your Instagram, as everyone is obsessed with your taste, but also I need to tell everyone on this podcast that Mandy Moore sang live at your wedding.
- [03:29]
Evan Ross Katz
Oh, my God. Well, thank you. First of all, thank you for having me. I am truly a very big fan of this podcast. I have, like, an encyclical knowledge of it. Are you serious? Yes. I listen all the time. So this is particularly exciting for me because sometimes you go on a podcast and you have to, like, you know, do the homework to familiarize yourself. I am, like, deeply familiar with the canon of this podcast.
- [03:47]
Chelsea Devantes
I am so shook by that because I'm so obsessed with you. And then shout out to Julie, who connected. I was just like, well, Julie must have really talked this podcast up. But you listen. Well, I'm. I'm starstruck.
- [04:00]
Evan Ross Katz
Oh, yeah, No, I. I religiously listen, so. So thank you for having me.
- [04:03]
Chelsea Devantes
You are a big Ina garden fan, right? I am curious your Ina history and just overall jumping in. What did you think of the memoir?
- [04:12]
Evan Ross Katz
I would say that my familiarity with Ina would be through having many friends cook recipes of hers for me because I, admittedly, I don't have a ton of experience in the kitchen. And then I kind of know Ina as, like, the pop culture institution that she is. I've obviously watched episodes of the show, but I would say my biggest point of familiarity is, like, clips that have gone. I wouldn't. Not necessarily like, the biggest viral moments, but the ones that have been, like, you know, readily shared on the Internet. So for me, she's just sort of like a calming presence that always has been in the periphery of my life. And I think this is how many people feel about her. I have an innate trust in all things Ina, so anything she tells me, whether it be about cooking or just sort of like life lessons, I know she's right. And so I've just sort of. She's always been a North Star in that sense for me.
- [05:05]
Chelsea Devantes
I love that. And I know. Cause you got on the recording, you said you made a lot of notes. I also made a lot of notes and a lot of life lessons were passed on that I'm really excited to check in with you about and see how we feel about them.
- [05:17]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes. And then so to answer your question, like, about the book. Cause I've been thinking about this a lot. Sort of like both experiencing the book and then how we would talk about it today. It is such an interesting book. I didn't quite know what to expect because I didn't know a lot about her life. Then I saw the press tour that she did in which she revealed a lot of the quote unquote juicier aspects of the book, particularly about her early life and the abuse that she experienced from her parents. So there were a lot of times in the book I was like, oh, I heard about this anecdote through this interview. Whether it be like playing beer pong with Taylor Swift. So there was that component. But I also think that that's kind of like the modern day press cycle. That's kind of how it works now when you're promoting a book. Yeah.
- [05:58]
Chelsea Devantes
Oh yeah.
- [05:59]
Evan Ross Katz
But overall I found myself really fascinated by her life. But I did see a viral tweet going around about the book that I kind of agreed with. Okay, so this viral tweet reads, listening to Ina Garten's memoir and she's just like, I got a job and hated it. Then I got another job and hated it too. I went to Europe, had the time of my life, then came home and hated my job. She's just like me. So there is this element of Aina that's like she faces a lot of quote unquote adversity, but at the same time it always seems to be like very easily remedied. So there's that fascination with Aina where it's like her life is full of problems, but they get solved seemingly so sensibly.
- [06:37]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. Almost like rom com problem solving where it's like oops, and then it's done. Yes. I had a delightful romp through this book. However, the thing that struck me, which I think is the exact same thing you're saying, it's just a different reasoning for it is all the quiet wealth in the book. There's so much money kind of tucked away in little sentences. And I think if you didn't grow up with wealth, it might be very loud wealth. But the way it's written, it's not really pulled out. But you're like, wait a Minute your friend's dad got you a job in Washington at a bank?
- [07:11]
Evan Ross Katz
Like, yes.
- [07:12]
Chelsea Devantes
That's not everybody.
- [07:14]
Evan Ross Katz
Right. I think that a great example of that is when she's talking about, like, devising her brownie. And I might get the exact numbers here wrong, but she says something that at that time, the average cost of a Brownie was around 75 cents. And because of the ingredients that she was using, her brownie came out to be $3.50. And then she says, I decided that that couldn't be the price, so I had to re engineer it. And I got it down to $3.25. And that sort of embodies Ina to me, which is like her idea of the price reduction is still so grossly higher than the average at the time. But also, you can kind of reason, okay, she did get the price down. So like, there's that sort of like, I had trouble threading the needle sometimes. But also I sort of remedy that by always just being like, well, it's Ina.
- [07:57]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. Yeah. I think that really got me too. Where she's really delightful, she's really likable. But when she says, like, when the luck happens, I was almost like, when the money happens, because there's just so much money. So, okay, let's dive in. What it felt like the arc of the book was to me really revolved around Geoffrey. When you open the book immediately, there's this beautiful childhood photo of her. Then there's a picture of her, like walking with a bouquet in the streets of New York, and wind is blowing her, like, perfect jacket. And then there's a picture of Jeffrey on the next page with sunglasses on, clearly like someone beside him has been cropped out. Like, it's just like the vibe is so different than her photos. And then, yeah, the whole book is sort of like, this is for Jeffrey. And Jeffrey, you know, helped me find my purpose and Jeffrey is my purpose.
- [08:51]
Evan Ross Katz
It's so interesting. I didn't quite know how to feel about their relationship because on the one hand, you get the sense that despite their great love for one another, they haven't spent a ton of time together.
- [09:03]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah.
- [09:03]
Evan Ross Katz
Whether it be because he's living in another country or whether it be because she's working 20 hour days at Barefoot Contessa. So there was always that sort of push and pull of feeling like that she felt that he was the first person to ever see her and empower her to be her best self, while also sort of thinking, okay, I don't. First of all, she seems to have no downtime to begin with. And what little she has there isn't much about, like, you know, we get into some of their early travels together, but we're more being like, told about their love than actually shown how they spend their time. I mean, the fact that she did the interior design of their home in Paris without Jeffrey being so much as involved in that, I just was like, how does one have a close relationship with a partner in which they're literally designing their, I think, third home?
- [09:50]
Chelsea Devantes
At that point, I wanna say maybe 19th home.
- [09:53]
Evan Ross Katz
Maybe 19th.
- [09:53]
Chelsea Devantes
There's so many homes in this book.
- [09:55]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah, yeah. And it's funny too. She's always like, how do I get secure this house? Oh, I'll give them over the asking price. That's how you do it. And I'm like, great advice. I love giving over the asking price. But anyway, it's like the fact that you have. I know for me, it would be very hard for me to furnish an entire home without my husband so much as knowing about any of the choices I'm making. And then she goes as far as to say, when Jeffrey finally came and saw their home, which is ultimately her home, she says it was one of the happiest, if not the happiest days of their lives.
- [10:28]
Chelsea Devantes
Both of their lives.
- [10:29]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah, both of their lives. So my. On the one hand, I sort of am like, that's odd. But then I'm also like, if this is their version of happiness, who am I to say what a, you know, what a good or quote unquote healthy relationship is? So that was sort of the push and pull for me of like, thinking that, like, I was doing a lot of judging their relationship while also being like, why not?
- [10:49]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the Paris thing, which is at the very end of the book. But I love that we're talking about it here because it's the thing I can't stop thinking about, which is like, there are just. At the end of the book, we just go to Paris for four chapters and she makes monthly, monthly trips to renovate this huge Paris apartment. And it's a two year surprise for Jeffrey. And the other thing I was thinking about is there's this time when Jeffrey gets a job in Tokyo, but Jeffrey really hates change and hates leaving home. So she flies to Tokyo and redoes his Tokyo apartment furniture by furniture, by appliance to look exactly like their New York apartment and surprise him with it. And she always has coffee brewing and the smell of his favorite foods coming from the kitchen. And Music playing when he walks in. And I got so horny for Ina garden. I said, if someone did this for.
- [11:43]
Evan Ross Katz
Me, I get it.
- [11:44]
Chelsea Devantes
Like, oh, my God. Yeah. Like, their love languages are very different. And a lot of it is preparing and loving and making things for Geoffrey. And listen, if I was Geoffrey, I'd fucking love it. Like, I don't want to decorate a house either. So that's. So. That's very nice.
- [11:59]
Evan Ross Katz
Absolutely. I also felt like coming away from the book, and maybe this wasn't the goal. I really have no sense of who Geoffrey is outside of a man that deeply loves Ina.
- [12:09]
Chelsea Devantes
We have. Okay, we're going to put a pin in that, because I have 19,000 notes on Geoffrey. But first, let's get right into the beginning, where she talks about how they meet when he is a sophomore at Dartmouth and she is in high school. She's 16 years old, and her very uppity mother doesn't like the boyfriend she has in high school. So she asks Ina's brother, who's also at Dartmouth, to set her up on a date with someone new. And the person he sets her up with just happens to be Jeffrey's roommate. And Jeffrey sees Ina through a window and is like, who's that girl? And his roommate's like, she's my date tonight. And he's like, I want to date her. And then starts writing Ina letters and is like, yes, you dated my roommate, but I saw you through a window. I think you're the love of my life. And if you don't feel like you wanna meet me, he has this great line which is, don't even waste the stationery writing back. So it's like a really beautiful love story. But also when you're like, oh, my God, she was 16.
- [13:08]
Evan Ross Katz
That's so young, because we're coming out of that. Having learned about the situation at her home and the abuse from her parents and everything. There's also that feeling of, like, her needing to find someone, if not Jeffrey, to affirm her right to exist in the world. Because she's been given nothing but negative reinforcement about who she is and her place in the world. So I also got the sense with Jeffrey that it was like, yes, she was falling for him, but she was also falling for the idea of there being someone in the world who didn't think she was a piece of shit.
- [13:41]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes. So true. And just going back to that year, it's like, women can't have a credit card. They can't get a business loan. So the only way out of her House is via marriage. And her parents have brought her up to be like, your only purpose in life is marriage. People are treating women is like the only way you can financially get out is marriage. So she's got to get married to get away from them. Let's talk about her childhood. The overarching thing is that they have money, but they do not have love in any way. And it's a very cold, restrictive, emotionally abusive from both parents. Sometimes physically abusive from her dad childhood. Yet I kept getting the sense she had more love and forgiveness for her dad than her mom.
- [14:24]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes.
- [14:24]
Chelsea Devantes
Because he apologized later. What did you think?
- [14:27]
Evan Ross Katz
I got that same sense too. I felt like when she sort of in the closing moments of the book, when she's trying to fit a bow on the greater narrative of the book. Yes, one definitely gets the sense that because he had regret that she was sort of able to forgive him in a way. You know, I found this really interesting. Because I will say the biggest pull quote that I've seen taken from the book is the abuse that she suffered. And I think that's because she's given several interviews on her press tour talking about this. And I think it's just the most surprising thing about the book. The other one being her kind of separation from Geoffrey. But like, they're not. It was more sort of like it was in the ether than like anything. I don't know that to me, I seen that as a headline coming out of the book. But that to me was far less interesting.
- [15:11]
Chelsea Devantes
I think you're so right in the sense that those two things were surprising to what we know of Ina in the Zeitgeist. But in the writing of the book, she does not spend a lot of time actually describing either of those moments. And so I think it's a headline. Cause it's surprising to her. But if it wasn't her, there's actually not a lot about either of those things in the book. Is how I felt like I was expecting much more.
- [15:31]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes. I was actually surprised too, by just the. We got childhood briefly. And then it seemed like she was 16 all of a sudden. And she was meeting Geoffrey. And it's interesting cause she talks at the end about her reticence to write a memoir and knowing that she would have to be vulnerable and expose aspects of her life. And while I certainly think obviously there are moments of vulnerability throughout the book, it was an interesting thing to say. Because I came away from the book thinking that, like, she had been quite selective about what aspects of herself to reveal. Obviously, it's very brave to reveal the abuse that she suffered, But I think it's easier to reveal said abuse when you have a quote, unquote happy ending to sort of bookend the literal book with. And so for me, it was like she was able to reveal that because she, quote, unquote, overcame it. And I think that she was really purposeful in wanting that to be the message of the book for others who read it. And that's been a talking point of hers in the press tour, which is that, like, no matter what circumstance you come from, you can rise above it. But by making that sort of a message for others, I think it exonerates herself from having to reveal too much about herself by making it more of, like, I'm an example of something larger.
- [16:41]
Chelsea Devantes
I think that is so well said. And yeah, I got the sense that we are missing 95% of the story of that childhood. We got, I think, the 5% she was comfortable saying. And I also get the sense that she's from the generation two of that. Even saying this about her parents is so, like, rude and impolite of her that I don't know if she could share maybe the worst parts because I definitely get way more hurt from her than words on the page. And it is tough to have it. Anyone can overcome their circumstance because, well, there's just so much that goes into overcoming, you know. And I do think she got some really beautiful moments, including then this is so sticky for me because. And I relate this to my mom too, where, like, a husband can help you get out, but only so much. And so she wrote this sentence, you know, Jeffrey takes her on a date, and he wanted to date her. And the quote from him is, I thought you needed someone to take care of you. He told me, and happily, he wanted to be that someone. And it is like, both parts beautiful and like, no, like, oh, no. Because that does become her marriage. And she talks really beautifully about how he raises her because her parents didn't raise her. Her parents didn't love her. Her parents didn't teach her anything. Her parents didn't think she was useful. So Jeffrey re parents her, which is amazing. But then also it's like, complicated, really what you want. Yeah, your husband. You don't want husband to be daddy.
- [18:06]
Evan Ross Katz
Which is, I think, something that a lot of people observe about their narrative, which, like, there's a chasteness about their relationship as it's always been presented, especially, like the times that he's been on the show. But with that comes this sort of as you point out this blurry line between him being a surrogate parent and their, like, romantic love for one another. And I wanna say, like, I think this. I don't think it's an atypical situation that they have in, like, someone finding a partner who unlocks access to like, a suppressed person inside of them. Like, I think many people can on some level relate to that. But again, as someone reading this memoir, one couldn't help but wonder, yeah, sort of like how that. What dynamic that then creates when there's a little bit of like a superiority within the construct of the relationship because someone is the student and someone is the teacher.
- [18:55]
Chelsea Devantes
Exactly. And that's gonna lead to this separation later. But first she's like, she gets married at 19, you know, they're so young. And then she goes back to college, but now Jeffrey is financially in charge of them, which is so interesting. She's like, yes, I have $100 for the month at college from Jeffrey. And she doesn't wanna go to college. And now Jeffrey's kind of her parent, so he's like, okay, don't go to college. But then she decides she does, and she wants to find what she loves doing. And she's like, I was really lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I decided to learn how to fly a plane as one does. I was like, what?
- [19:31]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah.
- [19:32]
Chelsea Devantes
As she's like, yeah. And they wouldn't teach women, but I found someone to teach me. I love that part of her personality. And she starts flying planes. And then Jeffrey's like, well, I don't know if I want Ina to be the only one who knows how to fly the plane when it's just the two of. So then Geoffrey learns how to fly.
- [19:45]
Evan Ross Katz
A plane again, as one does.
- [19:47]
Chelsea Devantes
Nevermind, I'm not gonna be a pilot. Yeah, as one does. Just casual. Ina the pilot.
- [19:51]
Evan Ross Katz
I think that sort of underlines so much of who Ina is, which. It's like there's an obstacle in her life and then she just decides to solve it and does. And again, I think that's true to her experience. So I don't falter in the writing of this memoir. But it's a thing that makes her remarkably unrelatable, despite the fact that I think part of Ina's appeal culturally is this feeling of like, she's kind of like America's mom in a sense, or like aunt, but she just has this way of being like, oh, I want to learn how to fly a plane. So I just went and did that.
- [20:24]
Chelsea Devantes
She's so likable and unrelatable at the same time. And those two qualities are almost never present in the same human.
- [20:31]
Evan Ross Katz
And I couldn't help but think there are few other examples of figures in pop culture that sort of fit in that Venn diagram.
- [20:38]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes, totally. Totally. And I kind of kept wanting to write, like, a children's book series. And it's like one book is like, Ina flies a plane, and the next book is like, Ina works at a strip club. Yeah, she didn't know it. She just wanted a job. And one day she was working at a strip club, which is another story. And then Jeffrey joins the ROTC to help him get a scholarship to finish college. But then he's part of the military, and so he has this military service to finish. And then they come to this point where they're free for four months before his job begins in Washington, D.C. she doesn't know what she's doing with her life. And they go and travel in Europe, and they got one of those books that was like, how to Live in Europe for $5 a day. And for $5 a day, they live in a tent and drive across Europe. Which, I mean, if you can do that, you're definitely in love for four months.
- [21:26]
Evan Ross Katz
Absolutely.
- [21:27]
Chelsea Devantes
A tent and a little car in Europe. But I don't know how you are. Would you consider yourself a foodie?
- [21:32]
Evan Ross Katz
No.
- [21:33]
Chelsea Devantes
No. Okay. I love to eat, but I'm not a foodie. Like, I can't participate in that world. So there were parts of this book where, like, if you love cooking, you love food, like, this is heaven for you. But sometimes in Europe, I just. On page 96, I wrote, oh, my God, two pages of grocery ingredients. And those parts, I was like, okay, I don't think I can read about every butcher in Ireland.
- [21:56]
Evan Ross Katz
Right.
- [21:57]
Chelsea Devantes
But it is really, like, if you love stuff like that, then you will love.
- [22:01]
Evan Ross Katz
You'll be super served that part of the book.
- [22:03]
Chelsea Devantes
You'll be super serv. Be overserved. And then they get to Washington, and this is where she's like, thanks to a friend's father, I started working at the Federal Power Commission. And I just really quickly, like, kind of 10 years passes in their marriage where he's working political jobs, she's working political jobs, and she's really bored and hates it. But she's also, like, writing legislature to, like, stop nuclear power plants from being built in the community. Well, what did you think of the Washington years?
- [22:31]
Evan Ross Katz
I mean, I knew a little bit about that because I think that if, you know, Ina if you're sort of like a layer deep into the fandom, this is part of the Aina lore. Like, this has been a part of it for some time. So I knew about it. I wouldn't. This was kind of like the least interesting to me in that although it's a surprising part of her background, there was nothing I really learned about her or any crazy anecdotes from Washington that came of it. So it was more like, oh, this is the part of the book that I knew was in there. And sure, she expounds on some of her time there, and she makes some interesting points that I think many of us now know, which is the whack a mole that is trying to get anything done in Washington. But, yeah, I found this part kind of like the least interesting as it relates to Ina, just because it was more sort of a checking off the box of, like, oh, this was a period of my life. Yeah.
- [23:19]
Chelsea Devantes
And a huge one, because she's not gonna own barefoot contest until she's 30. So her 20s are spent doing this, like, nuclear policy. And the one part I did love about this is how you can really feel how good her heart is. She said, I remember another time when I tried to save the government 20 billion. Yeah, this is. I don't know what year we're in, but this is like, what, 70s, 80? I don't know what. I don't know what year we're in, but we're talking billions in a year where that's a lot more than it is now by simply transferring a nuclear fuel project from the public sector to the private. A great idea. Until a very powerful senator in South Carolina, where enriched uranium just happened to be produced, did his damnedest to make sure it didn't come up for a vote. I said, name that senator. Full names. But I think we could figure it out if we. If I put more time into it. But basically, after this time in Washington, she goes to buy a house with Jeffrey because real estate has become her hobby. And they say to her, well, Jeffrey doesn't make enough on his own. And we won't count your income because women don't count because you'll probably just get pregnant. So on paper, you don't count at all. And this is like a little seed she plants in the. My marriage is not equal. The world is not equal. And she's a really staunch, fiery feminist, which I love. But in the book, it's my favorite part of the book, she takes us from, like, not knowing how to survive without her parents or Jeffrey to talking about Gloria Steinem and the era and wanting to be her own person and have her own credit cards and, like, discovering her rights. And, like, I just loved that part of the book. What did you think of the Gloria Steinem throughline?
- [25:06]
Evan Ross Katz
Well, first of all, I loved later in the book when she talks about some of her employees. She saw Gloria Steinem outside, brought Gloria Steinem into her store, and made all of her young employees who didn't know who Gloria Steinem was, she basically gave them an instant education by being like, this is Gloria, and here's all the things she does and here's why you shouldn't. Which is, like, such an INA story.
- [25:24]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah.
- [25:24]
Evan Ross Katz
I would say my one. I don't know if you wanna call it a critique. There was, again, she tells the story of maybe not being able to get the loan because she's a woman. And the guy says, oh, you're just gonna go and get pregnant. But then she's just like, no, no, I'm not gonna get pregnant. I'm gonna stay working. And then it's like, okay, problem solved. So, again, it's like an instance of, like, you have these obstacles, but they're never quite obstacles for Ina because it's like she presents it and then she's like, no, no, no. And then she ends up going around it and getting her way. So.
- [25:50]
Chelsea Devantes
Well, yeah, yeah.
- [25:51]
Evan Ross Katz
That was, like, the part that made it unrelatable in so many ways because there are a lot of women, I imagine, who face similar situations and who perhaps wanted to actually have kids and then who couldn't get a load and whose lives were completely upended because of it. So in thinking about, like, the two avenues one could travel for an interesting story, she often sort of takes the road more traveled in the sense of, like, just not having it be, like, narratively that interesting because it's like, problem. Problem solved.
- [26:17]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, her not choosing to not have kids, especially from her generation, is a wild and very judged decision to that time. And she does not. She could have spent some time right there talking about, like, that was actually quite a brave and compelling choice. And the only thing she really puts in the book about it is that she had such a terrible childhood that both she and her brother were like, we don't want to have kids. We don't want to accidentally pass that on. Her brother later does end up having a child via adoption, but she put that in, I think, to try and be like, we both felt the same. She never really talks about Jeffrey's feelings She never talks about if Jeffrey brought it up. Jeffrey's working in places where he would be so judged for not having a family during those years. That never comes up. And then she includes a Dolly Parton quote where Dolly Parton says, if I had kids, I couldn't do all the things I'd done with my career. And Ina's like, me too, but that was kind of it. And I'm like, I'm sure Ina's parents were telling her to have children. Like, where's the story?
- [27:19]
Evan Ross Katz
Right? And I couldn't help but think about younger readers reading this book that don't have the context of the time in which this took place. Because it's when you're reading this book through a 20, 24 lens, it's like, oh, she didn't want to have kids. That makes sense. She wanted to focus on her career. And again, it's not her job to lay out the context. But I think it would have been helpful because thinking about all of those girls at her store who didn't know who Gloria Steinem is, I think there's a set of reader of this book who does not know. Just sort of like how. I don't wanna say groundbreaking, but how against the grain so many of Ina's life decisions were in the time that she was living.
- [27:55]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. And listen, I think it is in a memoir, it is your job. Because I mostly wanna know her feelings. Well, then she's trying to find out what she wants to do with her life. Cause she's just so bored at work. And she sees an ad in a newspaper that's like, you can make hundreds and thousands of dollars in the Hamptons, like running your own business at the Barefoot Contessa. And she and Jeffrey go up there. It is hours away from Washington. It's like four hours, I don't know. And they buy it for $20,000. And she's like, I'm going to run the Barefoot Contessa. Which I always wondered where this name came from for her. And it came from an Ava Gardner movie. And it was just previously called the Barefoot Contessa. And she just kept it. I was like, this makes so much sense. Because I never really understood that branding for her. You know what I mean? She's not barefoot. She's very elegantly east coast dressed. And so, yeah, she just starts running this business in the Hamptons. And this is another time when Jeffrey just lives in Washington and they see each other on the weekends maybe. Yeah, she comes alive in the business parts where she's Like I'm calculating brownies, I'm doing 20 hour work days. This is what I did with the chicken salad. And I put it on this plate and the plate made all the difference. And I'm like, holy shit. I never would have changed the plate. I just would have perished.
- [29:15]
Evan Ross Katz
I have to say, like, on a top level. My biggest takeaway from this book is her innate business acumen is absolutely unbelievable. She says this towards the end. You know, I always ask for others opinions, but I ultimately always trust my gut. And it's a gut worth trusting. Like, she just has so many ideas of how things ought to be that, you know, when laid out by her just makes so much sense. And she just has such a, you know, a conviction about the way that she operates, both from a business perspective, but also even just imagining, you know, how she does the interior design of her many homes that I think is just so admirable and I really appreciate that. So many instances throughout the book she gives practical, I did this instead of this and this is why it worked. And you know, talking about, for instance, displaying the chicken and the difference that that made. And I thought that there were so many actionable takeaways from this book for anyone looking to start a business that I found that aspect of the book particularly impressive.
- [30:12]
Chelsea Devantes
I totally agree, even down to. There's one piece of advice that I can tell is already sticking with me, which is that when people come into the shop, they don't treat her like she owns it. And so she's like, I know what I'll do, I'll change how I dress. And she goes across the street and she buys a white linen skirt and a white button up top and she says the biggest piece of gold jewelry she can find and that becomes her outfit. And immediately people know to treat her with more respect. And she's like, anytime you want to change your life, change the way you dress. And I was like, oh, I'm going to do that.
- [30:45]
Evan Ross Katz
And it's great too, because the advice is not change who you are. Obviously to buy a new look costs money, but it's again, it's a very actionable piece of advice. And it's not saying who you are or what you're doing is wrong. It's saying there's a, perhaps a better way to go about doing it if you want to see this result. Just like, again, so actionable.
- [31:02]
Chelsea Devantes
So then she writes, she has one summer working at the Hamptons. She's working constantly. Barefoot Contessa is a huge success. And she writes this I thought a lot about it, and at my lowest point, I wondered if the only answer would be to get a divorce. I knew I was getting ahead of myself, but the upside of divorce was getting a lot of attention. The year after the release of the blockbuster movie An Unmarried Woman. This is so funny. Yes. And then she said she wanted a pathway to independence. I wanted all of that, but I loved Jeffrey and I didn't want to shock him. So I started by suggesting we pause for a separation sometime in the middle of the summer. We went for a walk around the beach. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I found the courage to start the painful conversation. I told him I needed to be on my own, and he accepts it. And they separate. And on the next page, she said for the first time in my life, I didn't have to worry about whether Jeffrey was happy. Which is pretty dark.
- [31:58]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah, it's dark.
- [31:59]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, like some dark shit. And especially because they're just. They're gonna end up getting back together. And the way they get back together is she says, you have to go to therapy immediately if you wanna get back together. And he says, I'll go tomorrow. And then he did. And again, nothing is being written of this. But if you're like, if you don't get your ass in fucking therapy, it's over. And that's what saves your marriage. It's like what was going on.
- [32:25]
Evan Ross Katz
Exactly, Exactly. I couldn't help but have that thought. Also, the reason why I think the anecdote like the separation story is a little low impact is because so much of their marriage is spent quite literally separated, that I know this is a different kind of separate. Exactly. So I know obviously this is different kind of separation, but it's not as though they went from spending in a traditional marriage to all of a sudden being separated. Their entire relationship is so untraditional in a fabulous way that I didn't. Again, of all the things that stick with me about the book, that separation, to me, I felt like that was low impact.
- [33:01]
Chelsea Devantes
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- [33:59]
Evan Ross Katz
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- [34:54]
Chelsea Devantes
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- [34:56]
Evan Ross Katz
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- [35:32]
Chelsea Devantes
Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation and when they get back together, I'm going to read it out loud and then I want to ask your personal opinion. She said. The Palm Spring Summit was the beginning of the rest of our lives, where they basically go to therapy. A therapist many years later told me her theory of marriage when you're young, you marry someone who has the qualities you wish you had. In my case, I was drawn to Jeffrey because he was smart and serious. He was a grownup. He did the same thing, seeing me as someone who was always fun and happy. The life of the party. As you grow older, one of two things happens. Either you start to find those differences increasingly annoying and you grow apart, or, and this is what was happening to us, you gradually become more like each other, even as you remain who you are. With time, Jeffrey became lighter, while I became more serious without losing my sense of fun. Okay, so here's my question for you. Do you believe that theory is correct?
- [36:28]
Evan Ross Katz
No, I think it's too binary. I think that there's just so many other options. And I think that the one thing that's, like, missing from that conversation comes down to finances. Because at the end of the day, when you have a lot of money, these decisions are a lot easier. By not having the conversation around income, you're not recognizing the way in which a lot of couples are either, in the worst instance, forced, but in other instances, you know, second guess themselves because of the need, the financial need to stay together. I think finances are such a driving force, particularly in this time period, that to not acknowledge that is sort of missing a crucial element of why so many marriages either worked or failed.
- [37:12]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, it was interesting because I read that, and I immediately, even though I did not get married young, we were probably a geriatric wedding by most standards. But I did write down my husband Yassir's qualities, and they were all qualities that, like, I wanted in myself. And I was like, ooh. And I'd heard this one other thing, which is the quality you are most attracted to on the first date will become something you're extremely pissed at years down the road. And I've always found that to be really funny and, like, you can, like, love it and hate it and go back and forth. But I was thinking maybe that was in this theory, too, of, like, they'll have these qualities, and you'll either bring them on or they'll start to become annoying.
- [37:51]
Evan Ross Katz
Right, right, right. That's interesting. But the thing that I couldn't quite thread the needle on is in Ina's description when she said that, like, Geoffrey found her to be, like, the fun, the life of the party. I never got the impression that Ina, like, that was the perception of Ina from how she presented her younger self.
- [38:06]
Chelsea Devantes
Right. Cause she's also. She's such a good businesswoman immediately. And Jeffrey, from every clip I've watched, seems, like, goofy. Goofy, like, I don't. Unless maybe he used to be serious. And Ina brought up the side thing is what she's saying. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Well, they get back together and Jeffrey starts working for the Lehman Brothers and they're like, go to Japan for a year. And Ina, she's bought a Dean and DeLuca that was moving out of its place in the East Hampton.
- [38:37]
Evan Ross Katz
In East Hampton? Yeah.
- [38:38]
Chelsea Devantes
In East Hampton, yes. And so she opens the second Barefoot Contessa. She'll later close the one on the beach. Just run that one. She's having this like very fancy life with tons of stars and celebrities and all this drama around whether the Dean and Zuluka, you know, if she's as good as this old store. And Jeffrey lives in Tokyo and they are taking turns flying back and forth to see each other, which sounds like hell. And she said, jeffrey, maybe you shouldn't like live in Japan while I run this store and work 20 hours a day. We're never going to see each other. So he goes into the Lehman Brothers and is like, if you want me to go there, my wife needs free first class travel back and forth whenever she wants. And they're like, yeah, no problem. And so she says she would get her like, little breaks and vacations in life when she was flying in the air, first class to Japan.
- [39:28]
Evan Ross Katz
So what's crazy about that, besides the obvious, is in addition to the travel time, you're also contending with the time difference, which is wild, that that was something I had to like regularly deal with. And the jet lag that comes with that, as well as the fact that East Hampton is two hours from the airport. So you're adding an additional four hours to and from just travel to the airport. So I mean, for all we know, maybe at this point she's flying private. Who's to say? Cause like, we really don't know. But like, I just felt again, it's like this is such an Ina Garten workaround where it's like, okay, Jeffrey's gotta be in Tokyo, but we'll just get first class flights to and from. And it's like, while that's certainly the best case scenario for what you've chosen as far as a life choice goes, I think the majority of people would be like, something's gotta give here. Like one of us. These two ideas of how we want to live our lives cannot live harmoniously in a marriage. And so I get it's like one of those weird things as far as like the takeaway. Cause you're kind of like, wow, it's incredible that they were both able to have what they want and they made it work. But I'M also like, this is incredibly impractical and would only work in their given circumstance with their love story.
- [40:33]
Chelsea Devantes
Well, and then I thought this was a real moment of vulnerability. She said, after a year of this, she calls him up and she's like, jeffrey, I think you need to come home. And she said, it's not because I'm miserable without you. It's because I'm very happy without you, and I have a full, amazing life. And if this continues, we're gonna have a problem in our marriage. She has this, like, full other life, and she's like, I think you need to come home. And he's like, okay, you're right. He's like, I just need to make one quick stop. And the stop he makes is a new job, and he's gone another year in Japan in just a different location. And she was like, but then we were back together. I was like, that's two years. But okay, so at this time, let's just go through some tiny anecdotes, because there's just, like, so many small things that happen in this part of the book. So I have one very big criticism of the book. I have a writing role, which is like, when it comes to describing humans, we either describe all humans or no humans, because it mostly they'll be like, oh, and then there was, like, a black person, and they'll never say when the person was white. Right. So it's like, describe everybody or nobody. I have the same thing with physical descriptions. And Ina only describes two physical bodies in this book. So no one gets a physical description except for two women. And she describes them both as heavyset and plump. And I was like, in a garden.
- [41:53]
Evan Ross Katz
See, Chelsea, this is why you're so good. Because it's like, this is such an interesting. Like, yes, yes. That totally stands out.
- [41:59]
Chelsea Devantes
I know. It's so small. You work in the food business. Like, you know what I mean? Like, why two female bodies? And she's like, I would open Barefoot Contessa every summer by bringing a muffin to Gloria, the plump older woman across the street. And I'm like, we don't need to call Gloria plump, do we?
- [42:15]
Evan Ross Katz
How does Gloria feel about this?
- [42:18]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. And also. Cause I know Ina has gotten. Ina came up on TV in a time when women's bodies and features were heavily criticized, especially when you worked in the culinary arts. And none of that is touched in the book. Okay. Then there's a friendship breakup with Anna. Do you remember Anna?
- [42:33]
Evan Ross Katz
Of course.
- [42:33]
Chelsea Devantes
In the book. So Anna is a chef who works for her. And then they're gonna go into business together. But Anna's like, I have the opportunity to buy a shop. And Ina's like, well, pool all our resources. We'll trade recipes. This is gonna be amazing. We'll be two chefs just crushing it. And they do it. And then when Ina gets the chance to open the Dina DeLuca, Anna defriends her because she's opening a specialty food shop five miles away in New York, which might as well be like 10 hours. But she's like, you're too close to me. You're stealing my business. And then when her business does fine, she calls Ina up and asks to be her friend again, and Ina forgives her. What did you think of Anna?
- [43:10]
Evan Ross Katz
Well, I just think that's like a classic Ina story where it's like, there's this quote unquote obstacle, but then it resolved itself and everything's fine and we're friends again and again. That's true to her experience. I don't think someone should manufacture adversity, but you do get this sense there's a lack of understanding from her about the privilege with which she's come up, both in her formative years and also in her professional life. What I wish that we could do is, like, you and I bump heads, make a list of all of our questions for Ina, and interview her. Because I think there were so many anecdotes or moments in the book where I was like, oh, this is really fascinating. I've got some follow up questions about it that didn't get answered. And that's not a demerit to the book. I mean, I think this happens often in a memoir. But what I really crave, because the interviews that she has done, again, have fixated on moments like her childhood, like the separation from Geoffrey. Whereas it's some of these, like, smaller little stories. Like, for instance, are we gonna talk about the gunman?
- [44:10]
Chelsea Devantes
Oh, yes, please, please tell us that story right now.
- [44:12]
Evan Ross Katz
Okay. Because that, to me, if I were to, like, take away any, like, extract a moment from this book that I think encapsulates Ina Garten. Oh, my gosh. So I hope I get this right. But basically, she's walking down the street one day, she is approached by. I think this is in New York City, and she's approached by a gunman. And he puts the gun up and he says, give me $50. Obviously, she's startled. It's a gunman that's asking for money. And she only has $50 bills and $100 bills in her wallet. Classic Ina. So she reaches into her pocket, she hands him the $50 bill, hoping this will suffice. He then says, give me 25 more. And so in her mind, she's like, well, I only have 50s and 1/ hundreds, and if I give him a 50, he might then ask for even more. And so she says, quote unquote, sternly, no, I gave you the $50. Move along. And what does the gunman do? He does it. And I just. And again, first of all, I would love to see, like, footage of this moment, and it should just be recreated, if nothing else. But it's just so I know where it's like, again, obstacle, gunman solution. Just say no to the gunman. Say, I've given you what you asked for. No. And he does it. And I just was like, this is Ina. This is the book. And it's also fabulous that, like, who else would tell a story of an attempted mugging where it's the victim that just simply tells the perpetrator, go. And they do it.
- [45:36]
Chelsea Devantes
No, you're being bad. Go home. That is so correct. And what's crazier is that she is getting ingredients in New York City to take up to the Hamptons. And it's like three in the morning when these shops in New York City open. And the reason she has all that money is because she has, like, thousands of dollars in this envelope to get all her ingredients for the week. So what's even wilder is that she's pulling a $50 bill out of an envelope with thousands. And it's like, well, the robber shouldn't get my envelope. That's a lot of money.
- [46:06]
Evan Ross Katz
Also, thinking about how low stakes that would be, even if the robber got all that money, again, knowing how wealthy Ayda is, it wouldn't put a huge dent. I mean, obviously they're high stakes. There's a gunman. But I'm just saying, in terms of, like, he's not. He didn't invade her home. You know what I mean? It's on the street. The most you're gonna get is what she has on her, which, granted, is more than most people, but it's just this, like, classic. Classic Ina.
- [46:27]
Chelsea Devantes
That. That is so true. Okay, now I'm gonna read you my favorite story from the book, which I think is gonna have similar themes. She was catering a party, and the next day the guy asked me to come by to pick up the rentals and settle the bill. When I showed up, the host, who looked like he was having a big morning after, said, he would like to tip me and asked if I could come back to his bedroom. What? I followed him. Pretty stupid, I now realize. And he asked if I wanted some blow. I thought, you want me to do what? I thought he was tipping me and it sounded like this was the wrong way around until I realized that blow was cocaine. Hmm. Now this is this. This sums up the writing of the whole book for me. I realized that blow was cocaine. Hmm. I remember going back to the store to slice some smoked salmon that morning, and I sliced it really fast. So it's like she skips. Hmm. Hmm is the part where she does the blow at nine in the morning and goes back to work on cocaine and she just won't say it.
- [47:34]
Evan Ross Katz
Thank you for bringing this up because I think this is a crucial anecdote in the story. I had the same thought. I was like, but like, if she didn't want to say it, then why put that obvious implication in?
- [47:47]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, yeah. But she. She does. There's a couple things in the book where she'll be like, I cannot even believe I am opening the door to even talk about this, but this story is just too good. And then she talks about how she and Jeffrey stayed in a motel and he left his pajamas there. And then she's like, who even wears pajamas? And then she moves on. And I'm like, oh, were you afraid we would know that you and Jeffrey had sex? Like, what are you open the door to? What? That he left his pajamas in a motel? But she's so like, oh, can you believe?
- [48:17]
Evan Ross Katz
Right? You think it'd be like, left his handcuffs or like, you know, something. Some fetish wear. But it's like, no, it's his pajamas.
- [48:23]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. And also it's like, that is so. Yeah, he's in a matching set of pajamas. Like, we're not worried about the crazy sex you were having that night. She also talks about how she would throw these amazing parties for her staff who worked so hard and one summer the police had to pull her out of the pool at 3am of a stranger's house. And I'm like, okay, Ayn has a good ass fucking time. She just, like, can't bear to, like, write down the details.
- [48:47]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes.
- [48:49]
Chelsea Devantes
How funny. Okay, well, now we're going to get into the Jeffrey section because the next change that happens in her life is she says, then Jeffrey takes a job at a boutique investment farm. Okay. And you're like, oh, fun. It's Blackstone now because of my history, you know, working in comedy news, working for Jon Stewart all that stuff. I deeply know what Blackstone is. I've studied it a lot. It is a horrifically evil investment company that is tied to the mortgage crisis in America. And to this day, the number one financial backer of Donald Trump, like 2024 Trump. Blackstone is like one of the number one campaign donors. And the guy who started Blackstone is Zibby Owens father, who is a book influencer. But that family is very pro Trump. So she's like, yeah, he went to work at Blackstone. No big deal. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you just call Blackstone a boutique investment firm? And then we never discussed that again. Like, what the fuck is Jeffrey doing? And you're over here, like, baking brownies. I think this part is so fascinating because then after that, he's gonna become a Yale professor. And one of the DMs I got the most was that Jeffrey is secretly in the CIA. And this is like a huge rumor now. Did you ever hear that rumor when talking about Ina?
- [50:20]
Evan Ross Katz
No, I've never. But, like, as you're saying it, I'm like, hmm, I can see the dotted line there.
- [50:25]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. Like, he's always gone and he's always traveling, and he has this, like, crazy work history where you're like, how do you go from all these jobs? I don't. I can't say I'm, like, fully on board with the conspiracy, but I think they get it from moments like this when he's, like, working some vague job at Blackstone. And also, that was the worst part of the book for me. I gotta be honest. It was a half a sentence about where he worked that made me question both of their entire lives.
- [50:53]
Evan Ross Katz
But that's an instance of if we have the opportunity to chat with her. Like a sentence that needs a follow up. Cause it's like, wait a minute. Yeah, like, wait a minute. You did cocaine. You're involved with Blackstone. Like, there's just these questions that arise that are. Again, her memoir. She can say what she wants, but she leaves these little clues in there that invite, you know, you to wonder.
- [51:13]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes. And then I will just. I'm. I can't. I just can't be de moi. But I will put on the Patreon. Someone who works at another podcast got personal emails from Jeffrey about their coverage of events in Gaza. And he would send them emails, being like, I don't like this. Sent from Jeffrey Garden's iPad. Yeah, you know, listen, I'll put it on the Patreon. It's very Gentle tea. But I mean, yeah, they are very high up, powerful people. And then the other thing I'll bring up here is that she writes in the book, many people refer to Jeffrey as a doofus. And like, do you really. Is your husband really that doofus on the show? And she defends him being like, he is so. And intelligent. Like, I don't see why people think he's a doofus. But that to me was also one of these things where she's saying very little. But it's a very broad way of addressing this reaction to Jeffrey of, like, he's in the CIA or he's weird or all these things. So what is. You've watched more Ina than me. What's your overall take on Jeffrey having read the book and watched the show now and her defense of him being a doofus?
- [52:18]
Evan Ross Katz
I've always sort of just thought of Jeffrey, like, as. Like in the context of. With Ina. And she says this at the end of the book where she says, like, a lot of people have this idea of them as relationship goals and I'm among those people where it's like, when I think of Geoffrey, it's just his proximity to Ina and the idea of them being two parts of a whole. So not until this book had I ever thought about Geoffrey as his own entity. He's something that exists within the context of Ina alone for me and my takeaway coming out of the book. See, like, I don't know, because it goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning of the pod where it's like, on the one hand, he helped facilitate her entire journey of self discovery. Without Geoffrey. It sounds like, in her words, there is no Ina. On the other hand, how sad is it that without this man coming into her life, she would never have fulfilled her destiny. It's hard to know how to reconcile that because on the one hand, you're so appreciative and they're still together, which is very helpful. It's not as though she's had some sort of realization and he seems to be true to the person that she describes, at least for her. But at the same time, one can't help but be like, there were multiple situations, like, as you mentioned, when he decided to relocate in Japan, where you're like, Jeffrey, you need to come home. Like, your wife just told you that she's discovering her happiness without you. Like, what are you doing here? You're making the wrong decision. So there are those moments as well. So I think for me, it's like, I'm ready for, you know, Jeffrey's side. Not side, but, like, I'd be ready for the Jeffrey memoir just to fill in some of the gaps.
- [53:52]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. If the CIA lets him.
- [53:54]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah. I was gonna say they might be preventative. Yeah, that's true.
- [53:57]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. They'll be like, don't tell everything. Yeah. I definitely see the goals in terms of independence. Like, you can both live your dreams and love each other. You don't have to spend every second of the day together. Or you can have. It's Carrie and Mr. Pig, right?
- [54:08]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah.
- [54:09]
Chelsea Devantes
We both kept our apartments in the city or whatever. And so, yeah, I see that side of it. But, yeah, so many questions. Well, at this point in her life, she's like, I'm deeply unhappy. I've been working in the shop, but it's like I'm kind of burnt out. And she's like, I go to see a therapist for the first time. Classic Ina. The therapist is like, well, if you're not having any fun, what sounds like fun to you? And Ina says, a convertible and a massage. And then she said, I still have a convertible to this day. And the same masseuse. And life got better. And I was like, huh? All you needed was a convertible and a masseuse. And then real quickly, she's like, and we really talked about my childhood, which crippled me emotionally for the rest of my life. Like, that's. That's what we should really talk about here. Yeah.
- [54:54]
Evan Ross Katz
Something else that she mentions in this section with regard to the therapy is she says that her therapist helped her to learn to trust herself. And I have to say, having read this book, I can't think of any instance in this book in which Ina didn't trust herself. I would say, like, the semicolon of this book would be, like, ina Garten, woman who trusted herself. And that's part of. I think that's like, the main reason why she is the figure that she is today, because of that innate trust in herself. But it was funny, her positioning it as some kind of epiphany that was given to her. And I'm like, this whole book is about someone with remarkable conviction who trusted herself. And even her advice at the end, saying, I get other people's opinions, but at the end of the day, I go with my gut. I'm like, so again, it's like she's presenting this idea, but you're sort of like, yeah, but everything you've told me counters the very thing that you're telling me.
- [55:45]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, that is such a great point. And I feel like I've called this out in books before and maybe one recently, but I can't remember what it was. And I see it in life where sometimes there is a human whose wound is bigger than the reality. You know what I mean? Like, you have not matched, like, your internal wound to your exterior, because, yes, she does trust herself. And to tie back something you said earlier, there's definitely an Ina garden. Without Jeffrey, I know for certain this woman would have found a way to make the life she wanted to make, no matter who was in it. And that's credit I want to give to her, because I don't know if she gives it to herself, you know?
- [56:19]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes. It's funny. I think you were talking about the wound. I want to say the Tori Spelling episode that you did, but I'm having a sense memory right now. The past episode in which you spoke about. About this very point.
- [56:28]
Chelsea Devantes
It really gets to me sometimes because I recognize where I do it myself. And, like, when. When you're like, oh, yeah, I never trust myself. And you're like, that's all you did, Ina. It's all you did. And that's where the cookbooks come around, where Ina really transformed cookbooks. She said, I'm gonna design it. The pictures need to look this way. People tell her the design is horrible. She's like, I'm not listening to you. This is how it needs to feel and be from all her years of experience. And she becomes a bestseller. And this is the next chapter of her life where she sells her business to two of the chefs and cooks who are working for her and starts writing cookbooks. Now, here, I have to ask you about the engagement chicken. Now, this is a recipe that she says, Meghan Markle and Emily Blunt say, yeah, got, you know, Prince Harry and John Krasinski to propose to them by making this chicken because it was just so good. Now, on TikTok, we would call this Marry Me chicken, right? You see the recipes where it's like, marry me, chickpea curry or whatever. So at this point in the book, did you think to yourself, I bet I could cook this chicken? Did you see the recipe and go, I'm gonna do it?
- [57:38]
Evan Ross Katz
No. But again, this is one of those things where it's like, I had never even heard of this. This is not part of my Ina lore. So I had to then go and Google and educate myself about this. But all I could think was, like, of all the things I was like, chicken is so dependent on the chicken. Like, the actual. Where you get the chicken. So I was like, what? It's like if you get a bad chicken, no matter how you cook it or what seasoning, it's not going to be quote unquote, engagement chicken. I don't think engagement chicken tastes the same depending on where you get said chicken.
- [58:04]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, I also, I had the knee jerk reaction of like, I don't want engagement chicken. I want, like, give me, give me money to film my movie. Chicken I want. Give me money chicken. I want, like, give me a nice house chicken. I want Ina decorate a home for me. Let me live in it chicken. Like, I. It was very like, this old school. Like, I made this chicken and he got down on one knee. But I did go and watch her cooking show about engagement chicken. I try to live as a vegetarian. I'm not super strict, but, like, I mostly try not to eat meat. And I was watching it going, all right, here we go. All right, lemons. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna make engagement chicken for someone. I didn't mind the recipes in this book the way I normally mind them in other memoirs. I thought that was the part she did best in the book. Like, describing a friendship breakup and then putting Anna's recipe for frittata in the book. I really loved stuff like that. What about you?
- [58:53]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah, me too. And I agree that it's like, in someone else's book, it might not have been as effective, but I think because she offers so much perspective into how she comes around to food. I mean, particularly I remember when she was talking about adapting her cake recipe for the book, she was like, I had been used to making 100 cakes, and I realized that it's not just about, you know, dividing the measurements by a hundred. I had to completely re engineer how to make this cake when making it at scale. It's moments like that where I'm like, wow, I have a trust in this woman and her process that makes something as simple as chicken. Something that I would trust that she can do it better than anyone because of a simple detail like that. There's this idea that despite the fact that it's like, how does Ina Garten have enough time in the day for anything? She also subsequently makes you think that all she does is spend her time perfecting every aspect of the many things she's good at.
- [59:49]
Chelsea Devantes
So, so true. I also loved that detail. And, yeah, I loved the business stuff. And, like, if you have this fantasy of, like, I'm gonna open a bakery, I'm gonna open A restaurant. Like this book is gonna be. You're gonna be horny for this book. And it was very rom com y, very Nancy Meyers to me in that way. Like, I'm just gonna, you know, bake a cake. But then we go to Paris. That's where we go to Paris for four chapters. My least favorite part of the book is when she said, I was trying to find mid century modern furniture that would also go with antique Parisian furniture. And. And she writes the sentence, I was in a panic because I did not know what furniture went with what. So she has like a panic attack and calls this designer person. That's like a lot of the book. And I was like, okay, this is where I leave. Like, I can't, I can't. This is highly unrelatable. But they, you know, she's basically living her dream life now. And Jeffrey's like, get a home in Paris. And she cries when she buys the apartment. And she says, I can't believe a girl from Brooklyn could buy an apartment like this. And I was like, your husband works at Blackstone? Yeah.
- [60:54]
Evan Ross Katz
It's like, this is the most believable scenario for your life. Imagine.
- [60:59]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah. Like this is. This is the dotted line. And at this point, she's friendly with Martha Stewart. They want her to have a cooking show. They try and run it at her house, but she hates it. And a favorite part of the book for me is that they're like, this is what Martha Stewart does. And the way it's described is that Ina Garden is like trashy Martha Stewart and just like, can't do it the Martha Stewart way. And so later, that's the reason her show is so popular. But it is very funny to think of Ina as trash Martha Stewart because Ina's stuff is so beautiful and specific and curated. But she's like, yeah, it's like I actually eat the food on camera. And Martha would never. And I loved stuff like that.
- [61:44]
Evan Ross Katz
Me too.
- [61:44]
Chelsea Devantes
Well, the rest of the book kind of goes fast where she's like, yeah. Then I said yes to the TV show and it took off. And then all of a sudden we were in the pandemic and she's got that giant cosmic glass and like, you know, she's live streaming and can't believe anyone wants to watch. And like you said, it's like your aunt or your mom is like taking you through cooking during the pandemic and it feels so loving. And I want to read the end of the book. And then there's a little bit of the epilogue, but she said, today, when I walk up the street and someone smiles, leans in and whispers, ina, I love you. I always remember my father telling me, no one will ever love you. It's like this private cosmic joke for me. Did my life unfold this way because I wanted to overcome my parents harsh criticism or despite it, I'll never know. But one thing I know for sure is that everything changed when I met Jeffrey. This is when my life began. We all need only one person to believe in us. And for me, that person is Jeffrey. With his love and support, I learned to believe in myself and found happiness and peace. And so it is a very beautiful person. Beautiful paragraph. Maybe for me, I thought it was a really dark ending because I hadn't really heard directly that her dad had ever said to her, no one will ever love you. You knew that he was cold. You knew that they didn't have value in her. But this is a quote from her father saying, no one will ever love you. So that was like, kind of shocking, you know? And then it immediately is like, Jeffrey. And so I'm really happy she's happy. I think there was just so much more unexplored in this book. But I did think she gave us what she wanted to give us. What did you think?
- [63:24]
Evan Ross Katz
It's interesting because I can't help but think about all the interviews that I watched with her ahead of reading the book. And so I was aware of everything that she endured from her father going into the book, which I think makes me wonder. And I have this thought often with biographies, especially as they exist in today's ecosystem, where sometimes even before the biography comes out, you'll get bustle articles being like, the 10 takeaways from Demi Moore's book. And then you sort of wonder, okay, well, do I need to read the book then? And with this Ina thing, it's like, interesting because I think that those experiences actually inform so much of the book. But it didn't surprise me. I guess I was a little bit surprised because you were. You know, they ended up her and her father reconciling, if we want to use that word. I don't know.
- [64:09]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, yeah, she forgives him. The paragraph above, the paragraph I just read to you.
- [64:13]
Evan Ross Katz
Yeah. But it's like she revealed in the interview on CBS with Gayle King that her dad had said, no one will ever love you. So, which I think is relevant because I entered this book with that anecdote ahead of reading it and was like, okay, this makes me understand a lot. So I think that that's relevant to how I. I always just wonder how people come at these, especially in pull quote culture. So if I was reading this book and I was in charge of, like, the talking point, it to me would be the pistol story or the cocaine story. Like, these were, like, the funny moments for me.
- [64:45]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes.
- [64:45]
Evan Ross Katz
But it's interesting to. With the context of. Oh, okay. To, like, cbs, the pull quote is dad Will Never Love youe. And then to other outlets, the pull quote is Jeffrey's the Separation with Jeffrey, briefly, which, again, the separation with Jeffrey. I would have never given that a second thought had I not seen that pervasive all around pull quote interview.
- [65:03]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, it's a really good point. Well, and then the epilogue explains the title, which is Be Ready when the Luck Comes.
- [65:10]
Evan Ross Katz
And this was interesting.
- [65:11]
Chelsea Devantes
She. This was fascinating. Yes. Okay. I'm so glad you feel the same. So she goes up and gives this. Where was she? She was filming something or doing some sort of talk. And as part of it, she talks about how she was very lucky in her life and all these things happened. But she also had a lot of luck. And she comes off stage and Oprah smacks her. And Oprah says, you weren't lucky. You make your own luck. Did Oprah just smack me in front of a thousand people? Actually, I have been lucky. I started to say, then she smacked me again. When Leslie Stahl got up to introduce the next person, she said, why do successful women always say they're lucky? And successful men say they got there by the force of their talent. Wait, did Lesley Stahl just smack me too? And so then she comes around to the phrase, and she got this from Eliza Minnelli show of like, okay, we'll be ready when the luck happens. Which is also that quote of, like, success is when luck meets preparation. Okay, so I wanna stop here and say I love the feminism in this. Of like, why do women throw their accomplishments away? And say it's like, oops, I just stumbled into it. However, I think Ina was correct. She's been very lucky. And the luck was money. Yes. And that's okay. But they're like, you make your own luck. And it's like, no, no, no. Sometimes you need $20,000.
- [66:31]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:32]
Chelsea Devantes
To buy your first business. And so I found it to be really interesting that Ina really does have a hold on her story by choosing this title. But also, all the women around her, like, wouldn't allow her to say it. And tell me what you found interesting about it.
- [66:45]
Evan Ross Katz
Well, for one, I disagreed with the Leslie Saul, quote, about it being this. Women do this and men do the opposite. Because I think a lot of men do the same thing. I think more women do it, which is, I think, the discerning aspect to it. And so I think it's more about why do women do this as opposed to making it as opposed to men.
- [67:03]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes.
- [67:04]
Evan Ross Katz
I also found it interesting, too, the conviction of Ina, especially if someone like Oprah tells you that your thought pattern is wrong. I think the majority of us would be, like, deferential to Oprah. And I appreciated Ina's conviction in being like. And also, this is Oprah, right? Who spent a career talking to people of every ilk of existence. So it's like, if anyone knows this world, it is Oprah, right? And so she's coming to you with, like, scientific evidence about love, right? Whether she calls it that, that's the case. I appreciated Ina for being like, no, no, no. For me, it's luck. But then a great thing about Ina is she doesn't just refute Oprah. She says, okay, well, taking what Oprah said into mind, I'll recontextualize the way I think about that luck. And I think that that underlines who Ina is, and it speaks to her earlier quote about, I'll ask for others opinions, I'll take them in, but ultimately I'm gonna do what I want. But I think it shows a critical aspect of Ina, which is that if someone gives her advice, it's not that she's not taking it, it's that she's gonna digest it and put it out the way that works for her. So she is a listener. She's not someone who's just, like, always going with their gut and their gut alone. And I think that is one of the elements of her success is her ability to, like, figure out the extract, the part of what someone's telling her that works for her, and then filter it through her.
- [68:22]
Chelsea Devantes
That was dissected so perfectly. You are so right. That is. That is how she walks through life. And a huge part of her success. She listens, she takes it in, but then she does it her own way. And I think when you were talking, I think I have the thought that I should have said, which is that I think people say it about women. So people will say about women, she got lucky versus women saying it about themselves. Because my friend Ashley and I are always like, if this is lucky, it was a fucking nightmare. And then some people, when it's not a nightmare, maybe that does include some luck. Okay, there's one other quote. And then we're gonna do the booktal test, which at the very beginning of the book, I hated it so much. Above Jeffrey's picture with sunglasses on. His quote is, do what you love. If you love it, you'll be really good at it. And I hated it. Cause it started the book. And I also was like, that's not true.
- [69:19]
Evan Ross Katz
Not true.
- [69:20]
Chelsea Devantes
That's not true at all. I know so many people who love things, and they're pretty bad at it. And the opposite. It's. Yeah, it's just beyond not true. Now it comes up in the book that that is what he tells her, that inspires her to follow her passion of cooking. And the second sentence in the quote is, ina, just pick something you love. If you love it, you'll be really good at it. And then he says, don't even worry if it makes money. And this is what starts her dream. And I'm like, oh, I see why you opened the book with that. But yeah, again, really specific quote, not applicable to almost anyone. This is not for others. This is advice for y'all. No one else should take Jeffrey's advice.
- [70:01]
Evan Ross Katz
Agreed.
- [70:03]
Chelsea Devantes
Okay, let's do the booktool test. As you know, we're both gonna answer all three questions. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?
- [70:12]
Evan Ross Katz
I'm gonna say no.
- [70:13]
Chelsea Devantes
I'm also gonna say no. I'm gonna say heavy No. I think she. She really. It's that. Hmm. In the cocaine story, that's a definite choice to be, like, no details for you. Okay. Love that we were aligned. Second question. Was it entertaining to read?
- [70:26]
Evan Ross Katz
Not as much as I had wanted it to be. I didn't find it gripping.
- [70:30]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes. Yes. I think that is so fair to say. And you know what? I'm going a full yes. And that might have been because I was really worried I wasn't gonna like the book. Cause they don't like foodie stuff. I can't really relate. And I know Ina's so beloved. So I was so nervous. I was like, oh, God. But I thought it was delightful. The grocery lists and stuff weren't for me. All of Paris furniture wasn't for me. But it is like a. I thought it was, like, a light romp, and I romped right through it. Okay, last question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?
- [71:04]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes. I really am inspired by her business acumen. There were so, like, for instance. And this is something that I have adopted this mindset before reading the book, but it's Sort of affirmed that, which is this idea of, like, it's worth it to spend more money on the things that you love. And in the case of Ina, it's when it comes to food. But it's sort of like, yes, if you buy the best spices and the best of the best of all these things, it will taste better. And so you have to reconcile, like, sure, it's going to cost more, but it's going to taste better. And I live that way, too. When it comes to small things, whether it be, like, toothpaste or. I love Pellegrino. I prefer Pellegrino over tap water. And for a long time, I was like, well, yeah, but tap water is free. Why am I gonna pay for Pellegrino? And then I reached a point in my life where, like, this makes me happy enough, where I'd rather spend more money on this than have tap water. It's the value of the happiness outweighs the cost. And I think Ina affirms that belief system, which is that, like, if you really love something, you shouldn't deny it just because, you know, I think as a lot of people myself, not everyone, but a lot of people, it's like, I think we grew up thinking, okay, like, it's all about budgeting and how can I save money, Which I think is a very healthy way to live life. But I also think that there are times to concede. And I think that she sort of affirmed that idea of, like, sometimes it's worth it to spend more money on something that you love and it can pay off in dividends.
- [72:23]
Chelsea Devantes
Yeah, I love that. And you just make a different sacrifice.
- [72:26]
Evan Ross Katz
Exactly.
- [72:27]
Chelsea Devantes
Similarly, I'm a yes in a couple ways. First, there was a moment where I was like, oh, dinner parties are so fun. I should throw dinner parties. And then I had to quickly remember that I'm never going to be able to pull that off. But there were parts of her lifestyle where I was like, yes, yes, I want to do that. And they were very inspiring. And I think my big takeaway is there were a lot of heavy things, like purchasing a home they couldn't afford, getting into these business messes. And she would just be like, well, then you just sell it and do something different. And even though we have maybe talked about the impossibilities of that, I'm definitively stealing her point of view. Like, I don't. I was like, you know what? Why am I getting so mired? You can make a change, Just do it differently. Just reverse it. Just turn it around.
- [73:17]
Evan Ross Katz
Yes.
- [73:17]
Chelsea Devantes
And I don't know if I'm gonna pull it off, but I'm definitely gonna go to some of the harder things going on in my life and try and eye in my garden. I know my garden the fuck out.
- [73:26]
Evan Ross Katz
Of them for sure. Make it a herb.
- [73:27]
Chelsea Devantes
I need to ina my garden. Yeah, yeah, truly. And I, I got very inspired to have more fun. Weirdly, I think I've been in a really serious moment and I'm like, I'm gonna lighten the up and I know my garden. Thank you so much for being here, Evan. You are so delightful. Now listen, if you don't already follow him, you are missing so, so much. Please tell everyone where they can find you. Follow you have. You have an incredible, incredible newsletter. And Instagram. Your writing is everywhere. Tell everyone all the things you can.
- [73:53]
Evan Ross Katz
Follow me on Instagram. EvanRossCats and I have a newsletter as generously mentioned. It's EvanRossCats.substack.com I do bi weekly articles about pop culture, fashion, anything that sort of catches my eye and inspires conversation.
- [74:07]
Chelsea Devantes
His taste is impeccable. Thank you, y'all. I'm telling you, impeccable. Oh, my God. I mean, not every pop culture moment deserves to be made a moment. And you pick all the moments that are true moments.
- [74:20]
Evan Ross Katz
I've had quite a few. I know ones lately as well. So relevant to this month.
- [74:23]
Chelsea Devantes
Yes, some really good ones. Thank you so much for being here. And if you ever make engagement chicken, you let me know.
- [74:29]
Evan Ross Katz
I will let you know.
- [74:35]
Chelsea Devantes
A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.