← Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
JoJo Siwa Breakup + Romance Novels Deserve Your Upmost Respect, JK Rowling Does Not
01:11:57
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- [00:00]
Chelsea
Critics are calling Thunderbolts one of the best Marvel movies of all time. It begins a powerful new era.
- [00:09]
Christina
That's what they talk about.
- [00:11]
Chelsea
Rolling Stone calls it thrilling. I should have seen this coming. Funny and a reverend thank you.
- [00:17]
Christina
We needed that.
- [00:19]
Chelsea
And it must be seen in IMAX. Marvel Studios Thunderbolts now playing. Rated PG13. Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. Ladies, you'll end up shopping for your guys deodorant. Right. So try Degree's original Cool Rush. You see, last year, Degree changed the formula and men were mad. One guy even started a petition so Degree admitted they messed up and brought the original Cool Rush scent back. It's clean, crisp, and actually smells like someone you want to cuddle.
- [00:48]
Christina
And it's in Walmart, Target and other.
- [00:50]
Chelsea
Stores now for under $4.
- [00:52]
Christina
So toss one in your cart and.
- [00:53]
Chelsea
Find out why it's the best selling men's antiperspirant for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back. And it's smooth like victory. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast that book clubs, all kinds of things, viral articles, and today it's a cookie jar episode. It's where we take all the crumbs from the month, throw em in our trash can and see what's up. It's all the topics that don't come up in book episodes, but this community cares about. And you know who my host is this week? It's our podcast producer, Christina Lopez. Hi.
- [01:29]
Christina
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
- [01:32]
Chelsea
Are you ready for this? We've got a. We've got quite the menagerie today. I know.
- [01:36]
Christina
I'm so excited. This is a chaotic. There's a mix of cookies in this jar. I'll say that.
- [01:40]
Chelsea
Yeah, they really don't. Some of them do not belong together.
- [01:43]
Christina
It's like, why is there a hydrox here? What's going on?
- [01:48]
Chelsea
Oh, yeah, it's like an everything bagel cookie. And you're like, I think I want that. But also, dude, do I just want the bagel.
- [01:54]
Christina
Oh, cowboy cookie.
- [01:55]
Chelsea
I do love a cowboy cookie. Okay. On the docket today, we are discussing Jojo Siwa and what Christina moments ago called important gay news.
- [02:07]
Christina
I want to get it right.
- [02:08]
Chelsea
Yep. And we're going to. We're discussing Bill Belichick and his girlfriend juror. We are discussing romantasy and romance dialogue from one of our previous episodes that really elevated my life. I'm a changed woman. My TBR list is different. My checkouts at the library told a story. We are also discussing a Harry Potter. Take that. I needed about heinous loser Joanna Rowling. And then, then a Rob Lowe speech that made me forgive him for his mensmore and will explain what is going on in LA and Hollywood and. And our lives. We'll get into our lives at the very end. Okay. Did I miss anything?
- [02:46]
Christina
I think you got it all.
- [02:47]
Chelsea
There's been so much good in the Patreon. It was hard to pull topics. I don't know if we're going to get into it, but, I mean, there was a discussion about, like, open relationships and mental health and meds and also, like, monogamy versus, like, it was incredible. I felt like. I. I don't know. It's not like going to school. It's like going to therapy, but like a group therapy. But first, let's discuss Jojo Siwa. So, Christina, do you want to just give everyone the overall headline? I've read some articles. You listened, you went deep. Let's discuss it.
- [03:25]
Christina
I'm actually like, where do I start? Honestly? Because the big headline is that Jojo and her partner Kath, who is non binary and uses they, them pronouns, broke up at the Big Brother finale wrap party.
- [03:38]
Chelsea
At the Big Brother, like, finale celebration party.
- [03:42]
Christina
Yeah. So JoJo Siwa was on Big Brother, and she was kind of having this friendship connection that felt very intimate and very public with a man named Chris, who's like 32 years old. JoJo's 21 years old, and people were talking about how appropriate it was that she was being touchy feely with this person while also having a partner. And it culminated in Jojo and her partner breaking up. And.
- [04:12]
Chelsea
Well, it's nice that you're saying that, because I think Jojo dumped them at the wrap party for a show they had emotionally cheated on them during. That's my take on it. But what do you think?
- [04:27]
Christina
Well, one, yes. Basically, they broke up. And JoJo explained it on an episode of Nick Viles podcast that came out on April 29, and she talked about what happened. But just know that JoJo was wearing a mask made up of makeup and sequins while breaking up at the Big Brother party with Kath.
- [04:46]
Chelsea
And, you know, that does take me back to one of my breakups when I was wearing a sequined thorny eye patch and in last night's drag.
- [04:53]
Christina
So I. It's very similar, actually.
- [04:55]
Chelsea
It's a tough time, but it. It's kind of like it, it's like, untucked at RuPaul's Drag Race, where sometimes you're like, Fighting and crying and having emotional breakdowns, but you have, like, chicken feathers glued to your face.
- [05:06]
Christina
Yes, exactly. That's one of my favorite moments in RuPaul's Drag Race, when they're fighting in, like, half makeup. But essentially, what. What it started out as, like, JoJo was in the Big Brother house in the UK. JoJo was going to be there for, like, I don't know, 20 days or something like that. And while JoJo was there, they had an encounter, oddly enough, with Mickey Rourke. And Mickey Rourke basically used a homophobic slur towards JoJo and trigger warning for sexual assault. He threatened to force her into having sex with him, implying that, like, that's all a lesbian needs is just, like, the right man to turn them.
- [05:42]
Chelsea
Mickey Rourke's dick will do it.
- [05:45]
Christina
Yes. And so while this was happening, Chris, the person that she ended up really getting close with stood up to Mickey Rourke and said that you can't say those words. And, like, to leave JoJo alone. And that was kind of like what sparked their emotional intimacy, which was really like, they would share a bed together, they would cuddle. In the Nick Viall interview, Jojo did say that she asked Kath what their boundaries were with JoJo. So, like, what they would be okay with JoJo doing or wouldn't be okay with JoJo doing, and that nothing in the house would qualify as breaking those boundaries, but that there were boundaries JoJo had asked of Kath that Kath definitely did break, apparently.
- [06:30]
Chelsea
Hmm. So Kath is their now ex. And also we covered a JoJo memoir on this podcast that is a different JoJo. We covered millennial Jojo. We're discussing. Are we. Are we discussing Gen Z or Gen Alpha JoJo?
- [06:44]
Christina
I mean, it depends, because, like, age wise, JoJo is Gen Z, but JoJo is mostly like, Gen Alpha sort of audience, I believe.
- [06:52]
Chelsea
Interesting. Okay, but she's. She basically got famous on Dance Moms as a child.
- [06:57]
Christina
Yes.
- [06:57]
Chelsea
She famously came out in a big way only because she grew up in you know, the very, like, straight dance moms, reality TV world, child star. And she has a very straight world period.
- [07:10]
Christina
I mean.
- [07:10]
Chelsea
Exactly.
- [07:11]
Christina
People come out all the time.
- [07:12]
Chelsea
Yeah, good point, good point. But I remember it was like, basically, there's a lot of pressure on her because she'd been famous as a child for so long.
- [07:19]
Christina
I would argue also because. And, like, this is something I experienced too, growing up, where, like, there's something about the way that you just compose yourself that screams gay to people in a way that they might know it before you even realize it about yourself. And so I think this is something that people were picking up on. And because she's such a public figure, it was like all they would comment on. And it was, I'm sure, something that she experienced before she even thought about that.
- [07:47]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [07:48]
Christina
Part of herself or. Yeah. I don't know.
- [07:50]
Chelsea
And I mean, you know, she was known for these like big rainbow colored outfits and sparkly bows and looking a certain way.
- [07:57]
Christina
And then she was a little more tomboyish. Yeah, yeah.
- [08:01]
Chelsea
But then she's like, you guys are making music and I'm gonna create a genre that's never existed before. It's called gay pop. And you're like, oh, that's existed for a long time. You pour sweet thing who's never been outside. And then was making comments like, me and Catherine getting married and we're having three children immediately. And I think their names were psychotic.
- [08:20]
Christina
And like, JoJo has always joked about having triplets named Teddy, Eddie. And I forget what the other one is, but it's another Eddie or whatever.
- [08:27]
Chelsea
But like, knowing her, you're like, this isn't a joke. Like, this will for real happen. Like, she gets a new wrap on her car.
- [08:33]
Christina
Yes.
- [08:34]
Chelsea
Like every year. And then the car will be like.
- [08:36]
Christina
Jojo, I think she has a cyber truck.
- [08:38]
Chelsea
Yeah. Cyber. Cybertruck. This feels like her. Like it's. And it's all very like, you know, you're. You're still a child in the world. You're a child star. So now there's so many layers to that. Now you're also, you know, having to speak for all gay people, you know.
- [08:53]
Christina
Yeah.
- [08:54]
Chelsea
But then going on a show. And so Chris derosa had put up an Instagram story where he, he was really in the thick of it shooting this show that is coming out soon. I don't think I can say, but he texted like, what did I miss? And someone wrote back, jojo is straight now. Which, like, obviously, like, isn't. It's just a joke. JoJo is queer. But on the show, JoJo said, I'm not. I don't consider myself gay anymore. I consider myself queer. Is that right?
- [09:20]
Christina
So there's a couple things that came up for Jojo in terms of both their sexual identity and gender identity that it seems like the gender identity stuff, they're still working out. And she also says that she goes by any pronoun somebody might want to call her that day.
- [09:35]
Chelsea
My pronouns are anything, anything you feel on that day, whatever I look like, you can call me.
- [09:41]
Christina
I'll use she. I'll use they. But JoJo hasn't proclaimed their gender, but it seemed like something that. It was something that they were questioning in. During conversations with Chris and then in another conversation with a different housemate, she realized that she would identify as queer rather than lesbian. She has identified as lesbian for the last couple years. I think when she first came out, she said that she was pansex sexual. And this is actually something that's kind of normal in the queer community. Like, it involves. There's fluidity. She's still experimenting and knowing herself and how she sees herself in the world. But the way she said it was like, f the L, I'm going to the Q, which is something that I saw a lot of lesbians take issue with because there's a dialogue in the community now that's like. There's not a lot of people who want to identify as lesbian, whether it's because of internalized homophobia or because of how they view lesbianism defined in a certain way. And there are different definitions of lesbian. Who can be a lesbian within the community. And people disagree with it all the time.
- [10:42]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [10:43]
Christina
And so they saw it as dismissive to the lesbian community and kind of a betrayal of sorts.
- [10:49]
Chelsea
Yeah. Which is also so tough. It's come up in a lot of memoirs, actually, where queer women, you know, make a choice that is not another woman. And it's a betrayal to a community. But it's like, you've got. The whole point of all of this is that we should all get to be ourselves in the way we want to be ourselves. And, like, yeah, I get. I get definitely needing spokespeople. And when you had Anne Hesch leading the way for a time, I get that that feels like a betrayal, but it's so tough when those layers enter the chat. It was also making me think of. We did. Time is, like, so such a blur for me now. Nothing to do with everything being crazy and traumatizing, but we did a Queer Ultimatum episode on this podc. Were you the producer for that?
- [11:34]
Christina
No, I was not the producer for that, but I did watch that with my mom.
- [11:37]
Chelsea
Oh, it's such a good show. I can't believe they haven't given us another season. So we discussed it with one of my best friends, Kenzie, and, like, that episode, I could still go back and discuss it for hours and hours and hours because they were also. There was this conversation about how Lexi and I forget the other one's names, but they were really operating in this a little bit, like, of a dusty version of of their identity. It was very binary, very regimented, very basically. I don't know how to explain it, but we had like a 30 minute talk about how they both carried little purses while wearing all the two femmes that got together while wearing bodycon dresses to get engaged. And like there was just something so crazy to me with how these like little purses over your shoulder as they're both getting.
- [12:18]
Christina
I remember this though. Yeah.
- [12:20]
Chelsea
And we're discussing the fashion and basically that there has kind of become a cultural difference between gay and queer.
- [12:26]
Christina
Yes, I would say to an extent. And there's also like, like I said, like lesbian can incorporate so many different ways, including gender non conforming ways and ways that somehow re embrace the binary. Right. And there's, there's tons of like butch femme couples that almost like recreate that heteronormative dynamic. And there's two femmes getting together, there's two butchers getting together. There's people who are non binary, trans masc, trans women intersex and all different kinds of combinations. Also there's non monogam. There's different ways that like queer relationships navigate boundaries around, you know, the status of a relationship.
- [13:05]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [13:06]
Christina
And that's kind of the beauty about queerness. But you know, we've had conversations about labels before here.
- [13:14]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [13:14]
Christina
And how like they can be helpful to help you figure out things at a time and feel part of the community. But in other times it can be very restrictive and that's when you outgrow or realize you changed or something that you might have ignored in yourself. I think that that's probably what happened. JoJo was away from all that external input and just had to sit with themselves and these strangers in the house and like figure out how to navigate without the like Jojo aspect of it.
- [13:43]
Chelsea
Yeah. And also, you know, and I think we've also had off mic, I don't maybe we had debates about labels where like you and I both come to it from like different places obviously too. And like kind of the ways they can also limit you or basically when the whole point is to open up this like very narrow society we live in to all the other ways you can exist, gender and sexuality wise. But then there's a place where then people take it so strictly either the use of the label or the action of the label that you've then become the thing you hate. Which is define, put yourself in a box. Now you're outside of the box. And like this happens with like ethnicity and race too.
- [14:24]
Christina
Yeah, I think it's A policing police. Yeah. Yeah.
- [14:28]
Chelsea
But, like, whether you're policing yourself of, like, oh, this is not what this, you know, whatever idea of your category is, or it's someone else being like, actually. So it's like writing that fine line of making sure that, like, the labels in the conversation are helping us accept who we are and be more ourselves and not put people into boxes, which literally has never worked because the boxes are never. They're evolving and changing.
- [14:51]
Christina
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. And I want to be clear that, like, it seemed to be implied from Kath, the partner side, that Jojo was embarrassing them publicly. Basically. I think that's immediately what happened was after they broke up or after they got dumped, they recorded an Instagram story, I believe, where they just unloaded about everything that happened, that Jojo had dumped them at the wrap party. Jojo was being very effusive about the status of their relationship, and Cath wanted a very clear definition of, like, what was going on there and implied that there was maybe truth to her connection with Chris being romantic in nature. All of which Jojo denies in the Nick Viall interview.
- [15:37]
Chelsea
Doesn't mean. I mean, I. Here, I want to hear your take on it. Here's mine. Which is like, she's 21 and she really came out guns ablazing with identity stuff. But, like, we evolved every baby gay. Yeah, exactly. And she's got to do it on camera on Big Brother, you know, I mean, like, so you're. You're also signing up for mess. And it's like, the fact that she's changed her mind and, like, had a fiance and was, like, planning on getting married at 21, like, no matter what your sexuality is, like, it's not looking good statistically for you sticking with that choice.
- [16:11]
Christina
I mean, there is a habit amongst Sapphic relationships to. There's like, an accelerator that's different from, like, heteronormative relationships because the emotional intimacy can happen so much quicker, but so much deeper. So much.
- [16:24]
Chelsea
You think? Okay, yes.
- [16:26]
Christina
I totally doesn't mean it's healthier right now.
- [16:29]
Chelsea
I agree, and I see that, but I'm saying, like, age wise, like, are we saying, like, sapphic lesbian women are, like, 21 is the normal age they're getting married at, or would that be on the young side? Just the way it is on the young side for straight people?
- [16:43]
Christina
I would say, personally, it's on the young side. I would also add that, like, that's the other interesting fold of all this. Right. So JoJo is 21. Kath their former partner is 27 and Chris is 32 years old. There's a big part of me that's like, why is a 27 year old even dating a 21 year old in the first place? Right. I think there's an inclination to believe that, like, child stars are more mature because they've been too exposed to adult things very quick.
- [17:09]
Chelsea
Yeah, well, listen to the podcast and we'll change your mind.
- [17:12]
Christina
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I kind of even questioned why, like, they were dating and taking it.
- [17:19]
Chelsea
So seriously way before this Chris thing. I was like, oh, Jojo, I don't even, I don't even pay attention to your life. And I know I'm not going to be hearing about your wedding or I will be hearing about a divorce just because. Yeah, she. I mean, she is finding herself. She is new to it. So all of this mess makes sense to me. I love that it's here for the conversation. And I hope she's not getting like. I'm sure she is because it's the world. But let's say, let's not give hate on this. It's just this is someone figuring out who they are.
- [17:43]
Christina
I mean, I guess you can a little bit.
- [17:45]
Chelsea
Sorry, Cass, but also, Cath, you started dating her when she's like 18.
- [17:48]
Christina
I think they were only together for four months. So.
- [17:51]
Chelsea
Wait, what?
- [17:52]
Christina
Yeah.
- [17:53]
Chelsea
Then who has JoJo been talking about as, like, their wife in interviews? As of like, last year, JoJo was dating.
- [18:00]
Christina
JoJo stated a few people and.
- [18:02]
Chelsea
And has wiped them up because Cass said they were engaged.
- [18:05]
Christina
I. I didn't hear that part.
- [18:07]
Chelsea
Yeah, Cath was like, jojo asked me to marry them. Here's what I'm saying. If I thought Cass was the same woman from last year who she was gonna have the triplets with and get married to, then, like, come on, then, come on. Keep your eyes open when you're, when you're dating and know that maybe, you know, your partner is figuring it out.
- [18:24]
Christina
I don't know. Part of me is also just like four months in, you're still in that, like, love swept, like, phase of like, yes, I could see everything we're gonna be together and then all that gets sucked out of the air by like a 32 year old reality star guy.
- [18:41]
Chelsea
That is so.
- [18:43]
Christina
I mean, the interesting thing too is like the Post interview that Jojo and Chris did together where he was like, this is a, like, how often he emphasized the friendship of it all.
- [18:53]
Chelsea
Our friendship is like, it's just a really strong bond between two people, which is Just a strong friendship. And I think, I think you can have, like a soulmate friendship. I think that's a thing. And to me, it's like that energy of where it's not like the standard friendship that you have with your friends, but it's, you know, it's still a friendship. You know, we are friends and just, it's just. Just nice. Yeah, it's just my good, best friendship with a woman 10 years younger than me who left her partner because of the friendship. But I listen, I get that certain relationships make you realize. Like, wait a minute. I'm not happy at all.
- [19:28]
Christina
Yeah.
- [19:28]
Chelsea
Well, I just hope we treat her and Kath with kindness, Chris. We'll see. Okay, let's go to another relationship drama that I loved reading about. Bill Belichick and his girlfriend juror who. This is our first girlfriend juror, I think.
- [19:45]
Christina
Yeah, I was surprised at how much the cookies were into this.
- [19:48]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [19:48]
Christina
I did a call out saying, like, oh, any last minute topics? And they're like, bill Belichick and this girlfriend. And it was like both on the Instagram and on the Patreon. Sometimes, like, do a call out on the Patreon and the Instagram for like, cookie jar topics, viral article topics. So you can always submit those there or at hello, glamorous trash.com if something really strikes you. And yeah, I mean, watching the actual CBS morning interview was wild, but if you want to get into the details.
- [20:16]
Chelsea
Oh, that's so funny. I was like, this was not as wild as I thought it was gonna be. So wait, so Bill Belichick, football God coach guy, very old. That's what I've got. Did the interview with a literal hole in his shirt. Now, for Bill Belichick fans, you might be like, that's him. That's my guy. But for all Chelse, who doesn't really pay attention to him, I was like, he has one out of place hole in an old shirt doing this interview. What's happening? Girlfriend Jury is not girlfriend during hard enough Grandpa.
- [20:47]
Christina
What happened?
- [20:48]
Chelsea
Yeah, that's what it felt like. And Jordan is a former pageant girl we loved. Listen, you guys all trash them. And here they are, the smartest, wielding the tools society forced upon them to give themselves a damn crown. And she is 24. He's what, 70 million years old?
- [21:06]
Christina
He's a little.
- [21:07]
Chelsea
He's like, he's 50 years older than her. And anyway, so they're dating. Of course she's hot and stunning. The photos of them make you weep because you're like, no, don't do this. And yet she's apparently filed for, like, 24 trademarks in Bill's name. She's running him to events. She has creative input. That CBS interview, they're like, how did you and Jordan meet? And from the corner, she's like, no, you're not talking about that. And they're like, no. She's like, nah. And she's run. She's running the show.
- [21:33]
Christina
And the reporter's like, bill. And he's just like, whatever.
- [21:37]
Chelsea
She says, whatever Jordan wants. And what I read in the article was basically like, not only is it like, well, this is my opinion. Not only is it so fun to see the sugar baby run the motherfucking show and just. I love it. Eek that shit out of him. Yes. If you're gonna do it, get it, get it made. This is how I want to see all of these relationships run. But on top of that, that Bill Belichick is someone who's famously not taking input, not having fun. He's, like, a very serious guy only doing his own thing. So just the fact that he's, like, listening to someone else or doing, like, a photo shoot where he's a fisherman and she's a sexy mermaid he caught on the beach is out of character for him.
- [22:14]
Christina
How do we feel about this age gap?
- [22:17]
Chelsea
Oh, I mean, I want to drive a million semis through it, but I just love. I love that she's running him like a corporation that's coming to a close in 10 years. And it's. She's. She's having the blowout sale.
- [22:31]
Christina
I think I saw a quote where she was talking about how she wants to be a GM or a VP of a sports franchise because they have more power than the coaches anyway, and.
- [22:41]
Chelsea
Yeah. Oh, my God, she must be making people so mad. It's so funny.
- [22:46]
Christina
Is she telling Bill that over dinner?
- [22:49]
Chelsea
Like, of course she is. I mean, she's like, here's how you got to, like, run this business, Zaddy. And he's like, okay, I love it. I. If every time we saw a crypt keeper dating a baby, but the baby was in charge, like, that's always funny to me, and I support it. What about you? Do you support it?
- [23:07]
Christina
I need him to start doing TikTok memes.
- [23:11]
Chelsea
I'm sure she'll get him there. She's like, you gotta be. You gotta be on socials for the branding babe. I.
- [23:18]
Christina
Bill Belichick doing the apple dance.
- [23:22]
Chelsea
Oh, they'll for sure do some, like, weird, like, couples videos as she's building out her company on his back, which is the exact foundation I want.
- [23:31]
Christina
So we're like, get it girl, right? Is that like, that's how I feel.
- [23:35]
Chelsea
I'm like, fucking demon girl. Boss to the top. Like, if you're gonna do it, that, that seems to be the way.
- [23:40]
Christina
Like, why not let him wear the holy sweaters all the time?
- [23:45]
Chelsea
I mean, that's where I'm like, okay, but you're not. She doesn't have the power to get him in a clean shirt. So there's still obstacles to cross. There's still a glass ceiling to be broken here.
- [23:54]
Christina
I think she's like, as long as he feels comfortable, he'll let me have control.
- [23:59]
Chelsea
Or is she like, this is his brand. You have to be authentic. I have to let him be himself so I can get more money.
- [24:06]
Christina
I think we're saying some somewhat the.
- [24:08]
Chelsea
Same thing but with different intentions. Yes, I like it. Well, listen, weigh in in the Patreon comments. Do you support it or not? Okay, let's discuss this romantasy romance dialogue that popped up after our viral article episode. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Prices keep going up. These days it feels like being on an elevator that only goes up, going up.
- [24:39]
Christina
But not at Metro.
- [24:40]
Chelsea
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- [24:56]
Christina
Not available Fab Metro with T Mobile.
- [24:57]
Chelsea
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- [25:30]
Christina
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- [25:46]
Chelsea
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- [26:27]
Christina
See for yourself@botoxcosmetic.com.
- [26:33]
Chelsea
Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Let's discuss this Romantasy romance dialogue that popped up after our viral article episode.
- [26:44]
Christina
I knew there was a community there.
- [26:46]
Chelsea
You mean within our Patreon?
- [26:48]
Christina
Not within our Patreon. I just meant in general.
- [26:50]
Chelsea
Oh, okay, okay.
- [26:51]
Christina
I didn't realize how much of a community there was within our Patreon for Romantasy. There was so much depth of knowledge and passion and point of view that just, like, really opened my eyes to the genre in general.
- [27:07]
Chelsea
Yeah. Well, it's so funny because I've been wanting to dive into this for a long time. I have seen, like, titterings in our threads of, like, great romance wrecks. I was on the Reading Smut podcast. I read that book Unhinged about a woman, a door. Literally, like, she, the knob. And also I have a friend, Claire. Remember who I was like, claire should come on the podcast. You don't know this Christina, but Claire had texted me about this book. That's. I'm gonna get it wrong, but it's like, about, like, centaurs and milking and maidens. And it's like, it's like fiery smut. And like, Claire had opened my eyes to, like, all these audiobooks. Claire's like, I'm on my way to work. I'm listening to a milking scene. And I'm like, what? Claire was like, it's spiritual. Change your life. And I was like, okay, they have to come on the podcast. And so when this viral article came up, I obviously wanted to read it. Now I have to issue. I don't know if it's an apology or a retraction. I think it's a reframe, which is that I compared. Basically on this one book publisher site, Entangled, you can search what types of love stories you want, like enemies to lovers I think, I think, what is it? Coerced marriage or forced marriage is one of them? Something like that.
- [28:20]
Christina
Okay.
- [28:20]
Chelsea
So I was like, oh my gosh. It reminds me of like porn categories. You can like search for the love story you want without realizing that these books in this genre often gets diminished by being like, oh, it's just porn. Oh, it's just whatever. Which I totally get. And they're trashing it because it's women. But like in Game of Thrones they're like, no, the dragon rape was literary. So it's like, okay, obviously this is like sexism. But I compared it to porn simply because I wanted it to be some porn for me to read. Because, like, basically for me something very fulfilling would be like an incredibly well written story that like really emotionally pays off. And then there's just like a stunning sex scene in it. Like, that is the porn I want, but that doesn't make it porn because the porn that exists is not that. And it's. That's horrific to women and cheap and shitty and it doesn't have like a lot of art in it. I'm gonna, on the whole, I'm gonna say, I'm sure there's some companies doing.
- [29:12]
Christina
Some stuff, but yeah, there are a lot. And there are also like content creators in like the sex industry.
- [29:17]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [29:17]
Christina
That are like independent and like self finance and all that stuff too. And I think like, for me, I was like, oh, it's such an obvious one to one because you're talking about specific, not kinks, but like things that are wrapped around desire.
- [29:30]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [29:30]
Christina
And so like it is the easiest comparison to make, but there are a lot of negative aspects to the porn industry that can make it feel misaligned with how romantic fans view the genre. And it's not an accurate reflection of how they think it should be categorized or understood.
- [29:51]
Chelsea
Yeah, exactly. So I, so I fully retract my statement and I want to read some comments about publishing in this genre that just really elevated me. So a cookie named Margaret wrote this. Romance and all of its sub genres, including romantasy, AKA paranormal romance, has long subsidized the rest of the publishing industry and through it pulls in the billions that keeps the lights on in publishing. And yet it is constantly diminished. Could it be because romance novels are typically fiction written for women? Predominantly for women. And Emelia commented, yes, the fantasy is that it's the only genre where women don't have to be miserable. And it's such a distinct and like easily recognized, like, of course. Oh my God, of Course. But it's like, yeah, why are you treating Game of Thrones as, like, high prized literature? And there's like so much rape and incest. And then the show was like, let's do more of it, actually. But like, you're taking the exact same books, but, like, when they're for women and the woman is not, not brutalized and sexually assaulted, you're like, oh, well, now. Now it's. Now it's YA or trash or cheap. Yeah, fluff. We're not well written. And it's all just like fanfic garbage. And it's like, man, I just like, the money never talks when it's women. Which is crazy because money is math. It's undeniable. Everybody wants money, go where the money is. And yet they will always diminish us. It's the same way they diminish celebrity memoirs where they're like, oh, my God, no, it's. Those are trash books. So that we will not pay attention to how powerful and incredible this is. So that women won't get paid for their stories. So that every time we talk about the details that matter in our life, other people can diminish them and say that it's like, stupid and dorky or even like, superficial and, like, you're a hollow person. And they've told us these lies so many times that I have to bat them out of my brain every day.
- [31:50]
Christina
Yeah.
- [31:50]
Chelsea
And. And I fully am like, I'm not drinking the Kool Aid here. And I still have to, like, be like, oh, my God, I can't believe you're fucking doing this to us in every area we go, no matter how much money we make you. You know, it goes back to the episode about, like, Barbie and Taylor Swift and Beyonce, like, holding up the economy single handedly. And, like, what they would do in any other genre is immediately rip them all off or go and find all the other creators who exist. Songwriters, musicians, people with great movie ideas. Ip. Right. And they would send them all a green light and say, go copy it. Go. Yeah, green light. One cop show does well. How many male duo cop shows have we had? 47. And there's more coming out. But, like, a female cop show does well. Resolute Isles, seven seasons, I think.
- [32:36]
Christina
Oh, my God, I love Resolute Isle.
- [32:38]
Chelsea
Of course you do. And like, we should have. We should have 47 of those too. But no, like, we only get one broad city and it ends and Sex in the City ends and Sex and City revamps before we get our other iconic dating show like, and. And there'll be efforts and there'll be attempts here and there, but it's just. It speaks to everything. But I just find it to be so devastating that we could take out romantasy and romance and replace it with female celebrity memoir. And all of the arguments are the same. They hold up. And it's like, like, yes, of course they're coming for our health care. They won't even acknowledge that we hold up the book industry. They won't even treat our books as good.
- [33:20]
Christina
Yeah, this came up during the money dysmorphia episode too. The viral article is that women make most of the purchases in the household, and perhaps the actual money dysmorphia happening is what the executives think happens around female content, which is it doesn't make money when it actually does.
- [33:37]
Chelsea
When it does all the time. Like how it's just so messed up. I want to read another incredible cut. So Emelia suggested the episode. Okay, I want to read this. She said a tremendous percentage of romance novelists are lawyers. Sarah Wendell, our recent guest, has a theory that a legal brief has to follow a rigid set of rules, but within that, they can be about anything. Once your brain is trained to write legal briefs, that writing genre feels natural. So that's talking about, like, the tropes that can exist in romance and the rules. One of my favorite romance writers, Courtney Milan, was a con law professor and wrote her first romances as a Supreme Court clerk. She was the superhero whistleblower who brought down Judge Kaczynski, largely because she's one of his only victims who didn't go on to big careers in law. Deeply invested in protecting his secrets. She's such a great writer. Her letter to Congress on the red flags of an abusive workplace made me cry. She talks about coming to romance as an escape for her brain after 18 our days of legal writing and abuse. And what this ties to as well is like, the name Stacey Abrams came up in our last episode. And I was like, you guys, obviously not the politician. Did you know that the politician is also the politician? Stacey Abrams, who should have been our president and still should be, writes romance novels under a pen name.
- [34:55]
Christina
Yeah, Zach actually referenced it in the episode. He's like, who I think also does romance novels.
- [35:01]
Chelsea
But I thought he was joking. I was like, haha, yes, she's fully undoing like, racial segregation in our voting systems in the south and writing romance. But no, she really was. She really was. And it is still different from the Stacey Abrams we mentioned in the episode who is an editor who unfortunately got name checked in this.
- [35:20]
Christina
You pulled up a whole photo on the ig. On our ig.
- [35:24]
Chelsea
Well, because I started to be like, wait, maybe Stacey Abrams is a romance editor. I don't know. But that's so interesting that like so many of them are lawyers, which like I thought was unique to Lyn Freeman, who was the person who felt she'd been plagiarized. Okay, another point. Far from it not caring because it happens all the time. Romance authors are at the front of the fight against AI and publishing and trying to get Amazon to take action to protect intellectual property in the self pub marketplace. An especially egregious and incendiary recent case involved an author in Brazil who plagiarized over 60 romance writers, which I read about that case and it's unreal. And I mean she had so many other great points. But there's one other point that like blew my mind. The rise of dark romance quote, he's a monster, but he loves me. As a place for women to put their feelings about having hetero romantic relationships with men who voted for Trump is an interesting one. Romance is the genre of feelings and as such always exists on the pulse of what's happening in the world in which it is published, aided by those fast writers and speedy book turnaround times. Even historical novels set in 1880s ballrooms are about, about right now. It's just a safer place to put it. How stunning is that?
- [36:34]
Christina
Yeah, that's incredible.
- [36:36]
Chelsea
And also like we've seen all these articles pop up of, of like I'm married to a Trump voter, here's how my marriage is going. And like there's been people who followed them. There's been, you know, like divorce rates, but there's a lot of women, hetero women who voted Democrat, whose husbands voted Trump, who had to negotiate, remain in, leave, whatever that marriage, and going to a book where a literal fucking monster is the person you're having sex with was probably a nice way to work out some really complicated feelings.
- [37:08]
Christina
You know, there's been a long history of like beast beauty stories. Like I'm thinking of the Hunchback, Notre Dame, the Beauty and the Beast. But very rarely do you ever see like woman who's monstrous find hot man.
- [37:21]
Chelsea
But also I bet we'll probably get so many comments being like, actually there are 50 Romantasy books about this.
- [37:26]
Christina
Probably. Yes, maybe in the romance, which is.
- [37:28]
Chelsea
So tight because all I'm ever trying to do in my life is write a comedy about a monster woman who gets a hot Guy and I had been writing something tangentially related to this world and all this romance stuff coming to play in my life. And, like, I'll be really vulnerable right now, which is that. Will I? Yes, I will. But then we'll make it fun again. We'll just do it really quick, which is that I had a lot taken from me when I was 14 and 15, specifically with romance, and kind of obliterated those years in your life when you would be figuring stuff like that out. But also obliterated all the following years of my life because it was so closely related to violence for me. And so figuring myself out and finding my partner and all of that has just been such a. It's just not that anyone's process is, like, easy. Nothing's normal. But I would say. I would say a therapist would give me a label of, like, we had some difficult times. Difficult times of me trying to process and get in touch with this part of yourself that you're supposed to develop when you are growing up. And so I've really. I've been checking out and reading romance books. Books. Specifically from Amelia's comment of, like, ooh, I. I think I could heal through one of these books. Do you know what I mean? Where, like.
- [38:55]
Christina
I know exactly what you mean.
- [38:56]
Chelsea
You do?
- [38:57]
Christina
Because I think this relates to, like, how my own queerness, like, I didn't come into it until my, like, mid-20s.
- [39:05]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [39:05]
Christina
And so, like, the time when people were being teenagers and being slutty and making out and, like, you know, developing what they did like or what they didn't like. And this is very common amongst other queer people, where you go through, like, an adult adolescence because you're finally able to be yourself.
- [39:21]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [39:21]
Christina
And some of the ways that I was figuring that out without having to date, because I had so much social anxiety about the way that identified and how I presented to the world. And, you know, especially if you, like, identify as bisexual, there's a lot of, like, lesbians or queer women who, like, don't really mess with that. And so, like, you don't want to be an experiment to someone, and you don't want to seemingly use someone as an experiment to find stuff out. And so some of the ways that I navigated that finding out what I liked and why I questioned whether I was lesbian or bisexual is because there. I explored that through porn.
- [39:54]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [39:55]
Christina
Looking at different, like, couples, like, amateur couples that were together, like, people who were making porn of themselves and, like, different configurations and how bipoc people's bodies, plus Sized bodies, like, all shapes and forms came together. And like, dom, femme, butch, mask, like, all how all that shows up in the bedroom, what that even looks like. Using porn, like, helped me figure out a lot of that stuff and also took away the anxiety when I did finally come to experience it in a lot of ways. And, like, that was my path. And for some people, that might be, like, romance novels.
- [40:30]
Chelsea
I. Christine, I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
- [40:33]
Christina
And I also experienced something in my life that made me a little bit, like, anxious around that. To not even dive into it in a hetero way.
- [40:41]
Chelsea
Yes. Where like, my concern, my innate concern that was put there to feel like it was horrifying no matter what situation was, like, concern for safety, concern for violence. Just kind of like in my bones.
- [40:55]
Christina
You can't even get sex or feel sexy when you're worried if you're something like you're going to be triggered. Yeah, totally.
- [41:01]
Chelsea
And so it's like, it for me, it's so funny because it's like I've got. I've got a Samantha personality and a Charlotte trauma. And I was like, I'm gonna fuck this whole city. But then another part of me was like, I have three things. A Mace in my purse and like, get away from me.
- [41:18]
Christina
I have the added bonus of Catholic guilt.
- [41:20]
Chelsea
Oh, God, it's so much. It's so much. And like, really meeting my husband, it was just, you know, and you've got that safety and like, you know, and then you can, like, just go wild. Yeah. So that's what I was thinking with these books where it's like, maybe there's other shit to read about too.
- [41:38]
Christina
I definitely think that's how a lot of people use them. It is like, a safer entry point than, like, you know, having to, like, use my ridiculous levels of research skills to find the precise kind of porn I'm looking for.
- [41:50]
Chelsea
It's hard work.
- [41:51]
Christina
Which also how I knew about stuck porn.
- [41:54]
Chelsea
Yeah. Christina later said that when my mind was being blown, she was like, oh, yeah, stuck porn.
- [42:00]
Christina
Which is also why I'm also kind of glad we did have Zach on for that episode because we would have never had that conversation.
- [42:06]
Chelsea
Yeah. And I think we should get my friend Claire on to discuss some milking romantic sea stuff. And I will say, like, I had some cookies. DM me like, hey, I love suck form.
- [42:19]
Christina
You know, we do be having some cookies that are like.
- [42:23]
Chelsea
And by the way, these were safe messages. I felt safe getting them. If you're wondering right now if you should send me that message, no, no, no, no, no. But I felt very safe and I was in a consenting place when I received the other DMs. So this leads me to. We're redoing the office to basically. I feel horrible saying this, but like, you know how Facebook and startups are like, we're building the plane as we're flying it and like move fast and break things. Which, like, isn't good. Is how I built glamorous trash with.
- [42:57]
Christina
Jordan, which is so funny to me because you notoriously have a fear of flying. So I'm like the person who has a fear of flying would want the like doors built on the plane that she's flying.
- [43:07]
Chelsea
Well, and I. The truth is that I, and I so dislike this because if someone said this about like TV or books or film, I would be mad at them. So I hate that I'm gonna say this, but like, I didn't want what we've built because I was like, I think I was like millennialed out of it. And I think I was trained artistically in ways to like, like always feel that like having a brand or having a, a media empire was somehow diminishing or selling out or there was no way to do it where I wasn't being fake. And when I accidentally stumbled into a way where it actually elevated and made my life more my life than I ever knew it could be, I turned around and realized what we've built here. But I'd like already chosen shitty brand colors cuz I was like, this isn't, this isn't my job. Do you know what I mean?
- [43:57]
Christina
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:57]
Chelsea
And Jordan, to her credit, knew the whole time. Jordan was the whole reason. She was like, we're gonna have a brand. And I was like, a brand. Like, I'm an artist. I just didn't know how I could be both, you know? Also, wow. I'm realizing we have two Jordans in this episode who are business minded ahead of their time. Bill Belichick's Jordan is different from our Jordan Jordan, Moncada rep who created Glamor Stretch with me and also my girlfriend, I guess my business manage, which is.
- [44:29]
Christina
So crazy to me because you're so business minded to me at least.
- [44:33]
Chelsea
It's so funny because I used to read business books as a teenager. They like really soothed me. But like, I didn't know why, but I met with Sheree, who works with us on brand strategy. I guess the first time I met with her, she was like, so what's your vibe? Are you an entrepreneur? And I was like, no.
- [44:48]
Christina
And now here you are. I'm making freaking dog bags.
- [44:50]
Chelsea
Making. We're making products. I'm really into the business of it, but I just had to tap it into it in the way that felt. Right. Okay, that was. Is. This is such a long transition, but might be worth it all to say we're changing the office again, because we're really just trying to hone in on, like, okay, we're actually building it for reals as we're flying it. It's time to, like, repaint the plane. And I was posting the office decor on my Instagram, as I do, because all the. All the cookies weigh in. And honestly, you guys saved me from some bad chairs. And someone didn't like a chair I was choosing, and they called it, like, a chair for a Slytherin. And I made a post where I was like, I'm a Slytherin now. I've never read Harry Potter, but I know the houses and I know I'm a Slytherin. And everyone around me was like, no, you're not. And I was like, okay, I am a Slytherin. They just. I'm just a weak one. They make fun of me. I don't fit in with them, but I am a Slytherin.
- [45:39]
Christina
What did they say? Ravenclaw?
- [45:41]
Chelsea
Yeah, Ravenclaw was a big one. But then I had some pretty interesting arguments for Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. But a few people were like, like, don't post any Harry potter stuff because J.K. rowling is transphobic. And obviously that's not news to me. She's such a. She's such a monster. She's been a monster for such a long time. However, I was like, oh, but that's. Those books aren't hers anymore. We took them from her. Those books are ours now. If you're, like, buying a new copy, like, you're giving her money. Like, I'm sure she'll be making money, but, like, culturally.
- [46:14]
Christina
Well, and also, like, if you watch the new show, doesn't she get money for that, too?
- [46:18]
Chelsea
I don't even know what new show you're. What new show?
- [46:22]
Christina
Yeah, they're rebooting Harry Potter with, like.
- [46:24]
Chelsea
Yeah, she'll always get money for the ip. But as far as, like, talking about it goes, I was just like, no, we kicked her out of this. Like, Harry Potter's ours, and she can suck it. I don't even. I've never even read the books. And I was like, whatever.
- [46:35]
Christina
We.
- [46:36]
Chelsea
She can drop dead. Then Peter Pascal was like, She's a heinous loser.
- [46:39]
Christina
And it's like, oh, my stepdad.
- [46:41]
Chelsea
Ah. And I'm gonna say my daddy, he was like, she's a such a heinous loser. She really is. And we got the most amazing DM from a comedian and listener named Amy. And I said, please send me the voice note version of this. She had this, like, really beautiful take on not the books. And yes, we don't want to give her money, but the culture around the books. And I think we should play it.
- [47:07]
C
Hi, thank you for letting me yap and picking up this bittersweet cookie of an opinion. My basic theory is that the world of Harry Potter is not only bigger than a J.K. rowling, it's better. Basically, she drew a stick figure Mona Lisa and then a bunch of fans came in and made actual art. That's not to say that I don't have love or like, derived comfort from the original, even though I wish I didn't, because those warm and fuzzy feelings now feel a lot more like acid reflux when I think about putting money into that heinous loser's pocket. The fan art that has been made is incredible. So shout out to that highly recommend going on Tumblr and looking at what those bisexuals created on their little iPads. I'm one of the bisexuals, but I don't have any artistic talent.
- [47:50]
Christina
But I do have a lot of.
- [47:51]
C
Opinions and have written a lot of fanfic and also read a lot of it. When it comes to fanfic, there are things that have solidified my brain as canon, but it's entirely made up by the fans. We as a community built these tropes entirely without Joanne's input. That actually make the characters a lot more vibrant and rich. And listen, I know it's embarrassing to be a Harry Potter adult. I know that very well. I don't think being Ravenclaw should come anywhere near to being your defining identity, and that's proven through fanfic, actually. So many incredible novels. And yes, I'm calling them novels. Be illiterate. They've been written by fans where they take us through the series by changing one or more of the characters, house placements, and then the conflict and the emotion and how the plot changes with that makes it just so much more interesting, so much more complex. I could go on and on about the merits of the Harry Potter fanfic writers. They've created tapestries of characters that are mentioned literally one time in the book. Like someone's random name that Joanne just put in there and then they create a story. And like these writers bring a fresh analysis to a book series that had a defining thesis of love will save us all. And what I love about fanfic is that it takes that original idea and it acknowledges all the ways in which that message lacks. How it's action and inaction that create the tides of justice. I love Hermione Granger with my whole heart. And Hermione would never let Joanne's bitch ass subjugate the rights of others. She would keep that roach in a jar if you know, you know, there's such a conflict which Akira views now and the hate that she spews to the hopeful resilience and empathy of her characters. And it's incredible to watch. I blame black mold in a white woman being on a pedestal for too long syndrome. That's been my take. Thank you for including this.
- [49:40]
Christina
Yeah, that's an interesting take, Chelsea. It is interesting when a fandom takes art and makes it their own right? And like, that's kind of what you hope for as a creator that like, it inspires something deep that you didn't even know you could touch to or speak to specifically, but you were just coming at it from your own experience and hoping that it was universal. And then people taking it on and making their own, building their own worlds around it. And I don't know, my question is like, by perpetuating the culture, aren't you keeping the like, actual story and copyright and all the money that she makes alive and keep it going? Or I mean, how do you balance that?
- [50:18]
Chelsea
It's interesting because there's a lot of art that we can look at in hindsight, and either the actual art has soured or the person making it has soured, whether in small ways or big ways. I mean, like, you could think of it as like, oh, Woody Allen in his films, but you could go much smaller than that. Like someone who made a small mistake or a big mistake. And like, how does that affect the art? And for me, Harry Potter, it has become such large can and such a huge part of the zeitgeist. I don't believe there's a way to erase it. It's going to die over time as things, things do. But like, not talking about it is not going to erase Harry Potter, in fact, and this is a personal decision everyone should make. And again, I never read the books and could care less. And yet I would rather be like, I am a trans ally and you can go yourself. And also, I love that she called her Joanne. The whole time, Joanne. It feels like shade, even though it's just her name. Like not J.K. rowling. Joanne. I think there's a lot of ways to go about it and I would be curious to hear what people think. I also just have to say on the Daily show, other daddy Jon Stewart calls J.D. vance Jessica Diane Vance. And it really, really delights me. Okay, let's just go to the very end of the episode where Rob Lowe was on a podcast with Adam Scott talking about how the people in charge of Los Angeles and California and production, basically all the tax laws that go hand in hand with production laws have up so badly that nothing is produced in Los Angeles anymore. And while I may be a few percentage points off, I want to say only 16 of all the art that was made here was shot here.
- [52:11]
Christina
Yeah. To the point where he said there was a game show that he was shooting and that it was cheaper to send people to Europe up Ireland. I think it was where they filmed it than to actually film the show on the lot here in Los Angeles.
- [52:25]
Chelsea
Yeah. And that like they could get like 100 people to Ireland for cheaper than they could just rent out a, a second shooting location on the same lot.
- [52:33]
Christina
And that if Parks and Rec was made today, that it would probably be shot abroad.
- [52:37]
Chelsea
Yeah, definitively, that's for sure. And I, I've been experiencing this for the past three years personally of like things that have, have come up of like a film and another TV project where it was from the beginning it was like, this will not be shot here, impossible. And then also a call for like shows that you can shoot very cheaply because they can't get you the budget. And the crazy thing he was talking about, which is extremely real and honestly was low sounding to me, which is that like if you shoot in Ireland, you automatically get 40% of your budget back. So 40% of your entire budget covered in Ireland. In Australia it can get up to like 60. And then if you do certain other things, like cast certain people, work with certain production houses, like in those territories, you can get even more tax credits. Those do not exist in Los Angeles, making it impossible to shoot here. On top of, even though the strikes were fighting for workers rights and union strength, everyone was out of work and especially the crew members who crew these things. And so there was a period of non working because of the strikes. But then on top of that there's now no tax credits. You can't even shoot here. And they have just run our city dry and into the ground. And maybe if you don't live here. It doesn't maybe feel like you care about that. But artist hubs and artist industries are really important and community and culture. And if you don't have a place where you can make art and you have to like go live somewhere else, it, it, it changes the art that gets made and the art that's like possible and the types of stories you're allowed to tell.
- [54:19]
Christina
Yeah, I know a lot of people who work on the crew side. I think when people tend to think of this and we saw this during the strike, it was like, you know, famous actors and you know, writers with long histories who make millions of dollars. This picture of millions of dollars. But there's like so many blue collar level workers here that go into producing and making a film. And it's not like you can make a direct pivot like it used to be. You could like work in TV if films weren't really working out for you or if there wasn't a lot of film work. And then the streamers came and it was like so much streaming, so many app work and all of that has dried up for a lot of different reasons that we've touched on before in other episodes. And then a fire's on top of.
- [55:03]
Chelsea
It and on top of that AI like it, it's, it is pretty bleak here right now. It just is. The, the whole vibe of the city is like, you can feel it in the entire town even if you do not work in entertainment. Like everyone I speak to is like vibes bad.
- [55:19]
Christina
Yeah, I mean like this is the thing about the industry is that it's also accountants, it's people who work in catering, it's the local restaurants that get.
- [55:27]
Chelsea
Impacted the town's economy. And then as all those people who are going to the restaurants and going out and having this scene, like who power them, you know, it's the whole, it's the whole cycle of economic spending. You were talking about how those blue collar jobs, unless you are a famous writer, a famous actor or like have a huge thing going, these jobs are really not lucrative anymore. And often, especially depending on how many gigs you do a year, they can be working class jobs. And they didn't used to be. There was a time when you got the, the lowest position on a show like Friends and Golden Girls and like you now had two mansions and like a jet ski that you just parked for fun.
- [56:12]
Christina
Well, that's kind of like the Danielle Steele of it all that we were talking about previously where it was like the 80s, all the coke and all the money that you could want for the kind of creative work that we were, we missed out until we were born together.
- [56:25]
Chelsea
We definitely miss out. But also, you know, I don't look at that. I'm like, oh, my God, I wish. I wish we were rich assholes for writing a comedy show now. But I do wish stability, health care and basic cost of living. And I think because the perception of Hollywood has existed for so long, it's like really hard for people to realize no. 97 of everyone in entertainment, it is a working class or middle class job. And right now it's neither of those things. This is the personal part of the episode where I want to ask you how you're doing and talk about how I'm doing. And that, like, it is taking a lot of mental health resilience right now. Because one of the most beautiful feelings is like, hope and creativity and hope that beautiful art can be made. And you've got to be able to just feel hopeful even if the stats are dismal, even if you're never gonna make it, kid. But when you take away that feeling of hope in the city, hope that you're gonna make something like, really beautiful, that matters. And you ha. You have to keep writing. Even though no one is feeling that special magical feeling that fills in when you don't have healthcare, when you can't pay your rent, and when everyone makes fun of you.
- [57:38]
Christina
When you owe taxes.
- [57:39]
Chelsea
Yeah, when you owe taxes, you still have the magic sparkly feeling of maybe I'm gonna make art. And when you take that feeling away too and have to continue to create. Listen, I'm not complaining. I'm actually, like, so grateful to be doing creative work. But it's just. What do I want to say? I don't know how I think it.
- [57:57]
Christina
Speaks to something that we also talked about in the Romantasy episode where she, Freeman, the main character in the article, basically stopped her writing career because she was either so heartbroken or so hung up on this plagiarism case that she could not create and did not create anything. And your advice was just to keep going, Right?
- [58:20]
Chelsea
I know, which is brutal. It's. It's brutal advice because it's also advice that, like, the Republican Party is founded on white knuckle bootstrap yourself, even though the system has ruined your life. And so I don't like it as advice. And like, you know, we run behind the bangs, which is the glamorous trash school. And like, like part of our curriculum right now is how do you keep your Creative soul intact so that you can create the stories that keep us going. You know what I mean? And, like, I don't want to make art sound too important, but art has changed my life. Art has literally been the thing that has kept me living. So everything is important, and art has its little slice of importance. And, like, for me, it's so important that. That the people who suffer the most from these types of changes in the system still get to keep making art. Like, how do you pass that on? Because this will pass. This will pass. And we will need your creative spirit to be strong. And so that's just a lot of the work I'm doing all the time is just like, to stay strong because things are still being made, things are still happening. We are building independently. We are all. I'm also still very much part of the system, but it's just like, how do you keep your creative spirit strong, Christina?
- [59:37]
Christina
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think I just feel like. And there's so many other aspects to this, too. For me, seeing how, like, media is collapsing, like, journalism, especially with what's going on with CBS and the 60 Minutes stuff and ABC basically sort of bending the knee to Trump and, you know, settling a case that Trump put up against them for some things that George Stephanopoulos said, and seeing how mainstream media has changed in the last 20 years and what a career could look like in that, and whether or not you want to be part of the system anymore is something that I'm also just reconfiguring and trying to figure out for my career. You know, there's so many times where I can look at other people who are in much more higher up or stable positions than me, but I think about every day of the concessions that they have to make and the people that they have to make them to who might be completely antithetical to their actual lifestyle. Like, I know many queer people who work for companies that are very openly homophobic, you know, and so I have lived with a lot of frustration about not maybe being where I thought I would be at the age that I am, but also acknowledging how industries and how the world has changed to make it so that we're not there.
- [60:58]
Chelsea
Because I think everyone is feeling that. We all feel like we're alone in it, but we all had pandemic years stolen from us. While our industry is collapsing, government jobs are collapsing, journalism is collapsing. Like, it's across the board. And we all are like, oh, my.
- [61:14]
Christina
God, the rise of AI and replacing, like, Duolingo just announced that their moving from being an AI first company.
- [61:22]
Chelsea
Oh, Duolingo. No wonder you got rid of that fucking owl. But I think what's important is to talk about it so that you're not sitting here being like, huh, this is not what I thought my life would look like. It's like, yes, because you were reading a different book and they burned that book and now we're reading a different one with a different set of ideals and rules and age markers and blah, blah, blah.
- [61:41]
Christina
Yeah, or like even that book was just truly fiction, like it was your life or that.
- [61:46]
Chelsea
And, and I want to say, like, small things too, of like, you know, my therapist told me that like, when better help came out, therapists were like, oh God, I guess that's the end of therapy, right? Like, why would you ever have in person sessions? All these things now. And therapy's going fucking strong, man.
- [62:05]
Christina
Like, well, and also I would argue that maybe it also helped build the infrastructure for telehealth that happened during the pandemic too.
- [62:12]
Chelsea
Absolutely. So I also don't, I don't think catastrophic thinking is even correct. Oh my gosh. You know what? Everyone always asks for the episodes to be long. It. Sorry, guys, but when I sold, I'm gonna put in quotes, air quotes, sold this podcast, which was originally called Celebrity Book Club, it like went out to pitch in February 2020. And so the deal points were coming in in March for the one week when they were like, everyone stop listening to podcasts because, like, we don't drive anymore. They were like, like, it's over. Right? And the deal they gave me was, we can't give you any money because we think podcasting is done, but it seems like you really want to do this anyway, so go for it. And I literally signed a deal for no money because I was like, what am I doing? Podcast listening went up 50 fucking percent that year. They became bigger than ever. But there was this catastrophic month of like, it's over that I signed a deal during.
- [63:04]
Christina
And I knew a lot of people who got laid off during that time.
- [63:07]
Chelsea
Uh huh. Oh. But only for like this huge resurgence. Or like bookshop.org started like the first company to go up against Amazon because he knew that, you know, that, that like Amazon was going to obliterate in the pandemic if a company didn't start and didn't start fast. Now we have bookshop.org here. So I just also want to point out, it's like you feel this intense level 100 fear, but also all Those fears aren't real. And that's what I mean about, like, staying strong and navigating this movement because it is going to move.
- [63:38]
Christina
How do you build that resilience? How do you nurture it? Especially when it feels like it's slowly bled out of you every day by every update, you know?
- [63:48]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [63:50]
Christina
I don't know. I don't know. I think I just. I mean, I think I know the importance of art, especially during political times.
- [63:58]
Chelsea
Made you cry with the state of the world.
- [64:00]
Christina
No, I think I was also just thinking the thing that keeps me going is my mom and her belief in me.
- [64:06]
Chelsea
Yeah. And what about me and my buddy? Me and dlo?
- [64:11]
Christina
Well, and that. And then the, like, pressure of, like, feeling like I have to make my parents sacrifices worth it.
- [64:18]
Chelsea
Yeah.
- [64:19]
Christina
You know?
- [64:20]
C
Yeah.
- [64:21]
Chelsea
I think it is abundantly clear to anyone listening and participating in this community that, like, you have already made them so worth it and are so successful and are such a huge contribution to putting really beautiful, important, necessary stuff in the world. And it's these other things that are making us. That are diminishing us to make you feel like, oh, my God, I haven't done it. It's like, you've already done it. You're doing it all the time. They're just making us feel like. Making us feel like we're headed towards nothing. Like.
- [64:54]
Christina
Well, that's the point. They. They want to make you feel like the voices can be diminished and they're not important. I mean, like, they're literally wiping away history in the national libraries and some of the museums that we're having because they don't align with the worldview that the administration wants to have aligned canonically, I guess, in the public eye. But that's also. That's another reason why we continue to create. Right. Is to have this other history, have this other culture that takes up presence, takes up space in a world that tries to deny it.
- [65:33]
Chelsea
Yes. Yeah. And like this. This ain't the first time piece of shit has tried to erase history and have. And have. And burned it and erased it. And, like, it is up to us. And I say us as in you, me, a needy quarantine dog who you might be able to hear snoring and everyone listening to, remember.
- [65:52]
Christina
Right.
- [65:52]
Chelsea
Because we'll put it back and we'll. We'll write history on the sidelines. We'll write it in substacks. We'll do it in podcast episodes. I'm serious. I, like, I. I don't mean to be so, like, overly serious. But also I do in that, like, they are so afraid of art, which is why they're taking away museums, which is why they're trying to silence musicians, because it is so powerful. It is so powerful to tell a message they do not want told and to unite people and make people see things a different way. And they're going after forms of power. But for me, it's just really checking in with all of the work you're doing and giving it value every day, even down to, like, because of Jordan, I now do five cat cows in the morning, and each one has an affirmation.
- [66:38]
Christina
I love that.
- [66:39]
Chelsea
And I was like. I mean, one, my spine needs it. It. But two, it's like a nice, lovely little habit. Right? And it's things like that where it's like, last year, I ain't waking up and doing cat cows with affirmations. Okay. I got to do. And this year, you know what?
- [66:54]
Christina
A can do some cat cows.
- [66:55]
Chelsea
A can do some cat cows. Okay.
- [66:57]
Christina
She need it.
- [66:59]
Chelsea
And I. That. I mean. But yeah, it is an emotional roller coaster, and I want us to clasp hands and ride through it, you know?
- [67:05]
Christina
Yeah. I actually would love to hear the cookies of, like, how they're staying resilient during these times, too.
- [67:11]
Chelsea
Yeah. Yeah. And I love resilience, too, because it is not something you have to be born with. It is a skill you can learn. You can just pick it up any day you want it, and the more you practice it, the stronger it makes you. Spoken from someone who had to get some. And so, yeah, I just think to myself every day, I'm building up resilience.
- [67:30]
Christina
Yeah. But also, sometimes you'd be tired. Like, sometimes.
- [67:34]
Chelsea
I mean, truly. I was thinking about the other day, and I was so mad at you, Christina, because when we did our New Year's episode, you were like, be careful what word you say, because it could come true. And I was trying to listen to you, and I gave myself the word gentle. Like a dumb. I was like, gentle. Well, guess what? Now I'm like, guess I need to lay here for two hours and can't get the stuff done that I wanted. Because I'm being gentle this year. And, like, a lot of resilience building for me right now is just like. Like, reading a fictional book, going slower, not pushing things as fast. I thought the dog bags would be in your hand. They're taking more time. Tariffs change, some things, and I'm being okay with it, and that's hard work. And I'm having this, like, gentle year that I no longer want.
- [68:23]
Christina
Yeah.
- [68:23]
Chelsea
And the gentleness becomes like, I'm tired. I literally, in the newsletter, I'm about to send a 10 minute laying down workout that has changed my life. You lay down the whole time.
- [68:31]
Christina
I love that. I love that. It's easy on the boobs. Yeah.
- [68:36]
Chelsea
No jumping. No jumping.
- [68:37]
Christina
Yeah. No, can't. That's. That hurts. But yeah, it's so funny because my word had to deal, had to do with resilience, which was like balante, which means like onward, forward, keep going. Well, so thanks for reminding me of my own word.
- [68:51]
Chelsea
What a beautiful way to end the episode. We can't wait to see you in the comments. And really, just thank you. I had the best time reading the Patreon this week. It just was like, I don't know, it was like this, I don't know, a news. A zine. Yeah, it's a zine.
- [69:07]
Christina
Oh, my God. Yes. And yes. Thank you to the cookies who, like, might disagree with us or something that we say and like, offer a different perspective and have a kind dialogue with us about it.
- [69:18]
Chelsea
And thank you for posting the gossip and the clips and the Katy Perry videos. And like, just thank you to everyone who posts.
- [69:24]
Christina
Oh, my God, that's giving me so much life. Every new weird Katy Perry video clip. And now Beyonce's on tour, so you're getting like, the comparison clips.
- [69:32]
Chelsea
Ain't no comparison. Yeah. Which, speaking of I'm loving Gina Knowles memoir, I did not love it at first and now I can't put it down. So let's end this episode so I can go keep reading.
- [69:44]
Christina
Stay tuned, y'all.
- [69:45]
Chelsea
Stay tuned. Bye. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.