Josephine Baker’s Memoir Fearless and Free (with Tocarra Mallard)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast – Episode Summary Episode: Josephine Baker’s Memoir Fearless and Free*
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Takara Mallard
Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez delves into the intricate layers of Josephine Baker’s memoir, Fearless and Free. Joined by returning guest Takara Mallard, the discussion navigates through the glamour and underlying complexities of Baker’s life, as presented in the memoir translated into English for the first time.

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Overview of Josephine Baker's Memoir

Chelsea introduces Fearless and Free as a memoir capturing 20 years of Josephine Baker’s life through conversations with French journalist Monsieur Sauvage. The memoir, originally published in French in 1949, offers fragmented insights rather than a coherent narrative, serving more as a companion piece to Baker’s other autobiographical works.

Notable Quote:

Baker's memoir "presents itself in the form of reportage," capturing "defining moments, impressions and images" that portray her as "frenetic, now almost majestic, but always just as deeply moving."
(00:54)

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Structure and Content of the Memoir

Takara Mallard critiques the memoir’s structure, noting its disjointed nature and reliance on snippets of conversations that lack broader context. Both hosts express disappointment, feeling that the memoir falls short in providing a comprehensive and engaging narrative of Baker’s life.

Notable Quote:

Chelsea: "It was Bananas. It was bananas. Like her famous skirt."
(05:13)

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Critique of Memoir's Handling of Anti-Semitism

A significant portion of the episode addresses controversial anti-Semitic remarks found within the memoir. The foreword by Ijeoma Aluo contextualizes Baker’s problematic statements, highlighting the dangers of dehumanizing any marginalized group.

Notable Quote:

Aluo wrote, “Baker’s outrage itself is not an error. But without the social and political context surrounding the power dynamics she witnessed, her conclusions and blanket statements can cause harm and contribute to bigotry and anti-Semitism.”
(46:51)

Chelsea and Takara discuss how Baker’s anti-Semitic comments are contradictory to her actions during World War II, where she actively supported Jewish refugees and fought against Nazi oppression. They emphasize the importance of contextualizing historical figures’ flaws while recognizing their contributions.

---

Analysis of Rainbow Tribe Adoption Project

The conversation shifts to Baker’s ambitious yet flawed Rainbow Tribe project, where she adopted 12 children from diverse racial and religious backgrounds to demonstrate racial harmony. Chelsea and Takara explore the ethical implications and psychological impact of Baker’s approach to adoption, drawing parallels to modern-day adoption challenges.

Notable Quote:

Takara: "Love is not enough. 100% love is not enough with biological children. Love is really not enough with adoptee children."
(59:12)

They discuss how Baker’s idealistic vision lacked the necessary support and understanding of adoptee trauma, ultimately leading to detrimental outcomes for the children involved.

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Insights into Josephine Baker's Personal Life and Relationships

Chelsea and Takara delve into Baker’s personal struggles, including her tumultuous relationships and internal conflicts. They highlight Baker’s difficulty in balancing her public persona with her private life, leading to strained familial relationships and personal tragedies.

Notable Quote:

Baker writes, “the things I enjoy are the end of me.”
(21:03)

This reflection underscores Baker’s relentless pursuit of success and the personal costs associated with her career and public image.

---

Conclusion and Booktal Test

As the episode nears its end, Chelsea and Takara conduct a booktal test to evaluate Baker’s memoir based on vulnerability, entertainment value, and life elevation. Both conclude that while the memoir offers entertaining anecdotes, it lacks depth, vulnerability, and personal growth, resulting in a critical assessment.

Final Assessment:

• Vulnerability: No
• Entertainment: Yes (for the stories)
• Life Elevation: No

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Final Thoughts

The episode culminates with a poignant acknowledgment of Josephine Baker’s complex legacy. Despite her groundbreaking achievements and contributions to civil rights, Baker’s flaws and controversial actions present a multifaceted portrait. Chelsea and Takara advocate for a nuanced understanding of historical figures, recognizing both their triumphs and shortcomings.

Notable Quote:

Chelsea: “Anti-Semitism is never okay. You have to name it and speak against it like it is something that cannot spread.”
(55:35)

This statement reinforces the podcast’s commitment to addressing and challenging prejudice, even when it emerges from celebrated personalities.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers an in-depth and critical examination of Josephine Baker’s memoir, Fearless and Free. Through thoughtful dialogue, Chelsea Devantez and Takara Mallard navigate the complexities of Baker’s life, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of her legacy, both admirable and contentious.

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Follow Takara Mallard:

• TikTok: Takara’s Library
• Additional Platforms: Visit Takara's TikTok Account for more insights and content on children's books and comedy.

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Thank you for tuning into Glamorous Trash. Be sure to subscribe for more deep dives into celebrity memoirs and the stories behind the glitz and grime.

Transcript

[Chelsea Demontes]

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[Takara Mallard]

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[Chelsea Demontes]

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[Takara Mallard]

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[Chelsea Demontes]

Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dive into all of the glamour and all of the trash. If you've ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy, then this might be the podcast for you. I'm your host, Chelsea Demontes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff, too. And today we are book clubbing the memoir of dancer, singer, actress, phenomenon Josephine Baker. It is titled Fearless and Free Now. Josephine Baker is one of the first black female superstars, if not the first. She was the very first black woman to star in a silent film. And there are so many layers to her story. This is gonna be a wild ride from dancing in a skirt made out of bananas, to leading the civil rights movement in many ways, to adopting 12 children later in life from every race and religion and titling them the Rainbow Tribe. Even if you are not super familiar with Josephine Baker, it's. This is. It's going to be a good one. Now, Josephine has five autobiographies, but this memoir was first published in French in 1949, and it covers 20 years of conversations that Baker had about her life with a French journalist whose name is Monsieur Savage. And he is the writer of this memoir. He basically had these conversations and he authored the book. And the memoir has been translated from French to English for the very first time. It's available in the United States now. That is why it is coming on the podcast. And before we dive in, I just want to give a trigger warning for talk of suicide and abuse Please take care when listening. There's going to be some tough issues in this episode, as with all episodes, because they're all about our lives. You know what I mean? Okay, let's dive in. We are bringing back a returning guest who had so many beloved and adoring comments on the Patreon. The outpouring in my DMs. My God, I feel like everyone's probably cheering now that she is back so soon. She first covered the Ricki Lake memoir. She just covered Jennifer Hudson's memoir. She is a comedian, a writer on the problem with Jon Stewart. She previously worked in nonprofits. She has a TikTok account where she recaps children's books. It's phenomenal. She is also Ahmad and behind the Bangs teaching, writing. It's Takara Mallard. Hi.

[Takara Mallard]

She's back.

[Chelsea Demontes]

She's here.

[Takara Mallard]

Thanks for having me again.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Are you kidding me? This is a. It's a gift to me. And knowing how much everyone loves you, a gift to the audience. Now, Takara, at the end of the Jennifer Hudson episode, you said, chelsea, you put me through two horrendous books. Ricky Lake, Jennifer Hudson, you owe me. You owe me a good one. You were like, I need a diva who doesn't give a. And then tangentially, you told a story about this altar you had made that had, like, a matchbook with Josephine Baker on it. And our producer Christina was like, hey, you know that one of her memoirs is being translated into English for the first time. This is your book. It felt like kismet. It felt like destiny. Takara, did you like this book or did you not like this book?

[Takara Mallard]

Wow. What a loaded question, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Well, there was a lot of pressure last time. You're pretty mad. You said, like, give me a good book. Now I've read the book. I know how I feel. And now I want to know from you, are you like, you've ruined me again, or are you like, we did it?

[Takara Mallard]

I like this book because for me, it does not stand on its own. I've read many Josephine Baker books. Agent Josephine, the Hungry Heart. And so this, to me, was like a companion piece. Also, I know what Josephine Baker sounds like. So as I was reading this, I was like, oh, I'm imagining her getting up at 4pm and, like, talking about Marrakesh, you know? But as a standalone memoir, I'm sorry to say this wasn't the one.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I was devastated reading this. I was like, God, I hope by some account, she's like, I love this book. Cause I believe this was Bananas. It was bananas. Like her famous skirt. It. This was. And I. I knew Josephine Baker just. I don't know, historically, zeitgeisty. But I didn't. I don't know her like you know her. So this book was very bad for me, however, also very good, because she's really funny. The way it's put together is so, I have to say, like Monsieur Sauvage. Yes. In my head, I was like, savage. I was like, I know it's not Monsieur Savage, but he did. Bad job.

[Takara Mallard]

Bad.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Bad job, monsieur. But she's so funny, and there's so many great moments. But I had an amazing time doing research outside this book to understand what the hell was happening.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So, yeah, let's weave that in as we talk about this memoir. Because this memoir alone. Let me just read page 20. He said, I must apologize for. Memoirs composed in this way cannot present the same appearance as a coherently unfolding narrative. This book ultimately presents itself in the form of reportage. Do we. Did I say that right? Report. Oh, I keep wanting to be French reportage, but I think it's reportage. A succession of interviews taking place at random intervals over more than 20 years. They simply form a collection of defining moments, impressions and images. But in so doing, they give the most precise portrayal of the star that Paris has consecrated. Once frenetic, now almost majestic, but always just as deeply moving.

[Takara Mallard]

He didn't lie.

[Chelsea Demontes]

He didn't lie. That was actually. You did a good job there, monsieur.

[Takara Mallard]

I appreciate the honesty.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, it's just like. It's just like little tiny snippets. And so, yeah, if you don't already know the context of Josephine, which I didn't for maybe a third away in this book. And then I said, okay, let me. Let me go read other books so I can come back and read this book. It was funny, but it's very voicey because at some points, it seems like he transcribed what she was saying. Did that. As someone who knows her well, like when she has these funny little witticisms, did they sound like it was just her talking?

[Takara Mallard]

That absolutely sounds like it's her talking. And I'm sure when you were doing your research, you know, you understand that, you know, she's the star of Paris. Toast of Paris. She gets away with everything.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. It's so tight.

[Takara Mallard]

Incredible. What do you mean? You're walking around the Champs Elysees with a cheetah. What are you talking about?

[Chelsea Demontes]

Gets into the orchestra sometimes and adds to the flair of the show.

[Takara Mallard]

Hysterical. But as someone who's, like, watched her videos. There's a really great video. We should put it in the show notes. I think she's maybe 60 at the time she's doing it. And it's a television show that's in English, but it's from the Netherlands.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

And it's only Josephine and the host, because there's a strike going on. So there's no audience. There's no. There's no one there. And as soon as she gets on stage, she practically takes over the show. Does not let this man get a word in edgewise. Every once in a while. She'd be like. Don't you agree? And he'd be like, well, yes, Josephine. She's like, exactly, darling. And then keep talking.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I love this.

[Takara Mallard]

I'm not even gonna talk about my age, because, after all, this belongs to me.

[Chelsea Demontes]

How old are you? 64. Terrific. Yes, well, 64 years old. And sometimes I feel it, and sometimes I do. Well, I think it's like that with all people at a certain age. You feel it if you're unhappy or if you have troubles.

[Takara Mallard]

And a lot of people in the.

[Chelsea Demontes]

World have troubles almost every day, and sometimes they're unhappy about them.

[Takara Mallard]

Of course you feel age.

[Chelsea Demontes]

If you don't feel age, you just feel something is very dis. But you're unchangeable. Absolutely unchangeable.

[Takara Mallard]

So that's what I imagine her in, like, beautiful glasses, dramatic, you know, clothing, and she's like, exactly. Monsieur Sauvage. Don't you agree?

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yes. Because his name is actually in the book a lot. Here's the thing. Monsieur Savage.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And to the point where it's like he becomes a character in the memoir.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That is such a good way of saying it. Let's just give some background so we can dive into. We won't be able to recap this book. It's impossible. It's fragments. But then we can, like, dive into maybe some highlights we had.

[Takara Mallard]

Perfect.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So she is born into extreme poverty in America.

[Takara Mallard]

We.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Which is a, you know, big part of her story because she will later become a French citizen. And, you know, in the book, she talks about how her parents were married, but their parents didn't want them to be married. And so they separated after they had her. But there's a lot of accounts saying that is categorically false.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

One, that they were not married. And two, a huge part of her story that, to my knowledge, was never truly solved is the identity of her father. So her father is said to be this black man who was a drummer. But after doing a bunch of research into her, one of her children finds that when Josephine's mom was pregnant, she was checked into a white women's only hospital for five weeks. That's right. And so they're like, how did she get access into that hospital given, you know, the racism and segregation? And also, how would someone like that would paid for that?

[Takara Mallard]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Demontes]

The idea being that, like, her father was a white man. And that will also kind of play into Josephine and people, you know, talking about her being mixed or being black and all that. So. So what. What was your take on that whole story? Because in the memoir, she's like, my parents were married and then they split up. Good day, Monsieur Sauvage.

[Takara Mallard]

You know what? You can tell it caused her a great deal of pain.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

In the Hungry Heart, there's a quote where she's just like. Or actually, I think it's in Fearless and Free as well, where she's just like, I wish we were all the same color. I don't think that she wanted her father to be white.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

I think as she was recounting stories about who her father was and the makeup of her family, it just eased her mind for everyone to be the same.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. And I think we'll see that play out in the Rainbow Tribe story that we will get into at the end of the episode. Yes, yes, good point. Well, obviously, a lot happens. She is working as young as eight years old, but she gets into dancing, and she becomes a dancer on Broadway in the chorus of a musical called Shuffle Along. And then, by all accounts of this memoir, gets to France. Like, we just turn the page, and she's like, I'm in Paris now. And I was sort of like, how did we get to Paris? How did we get to Paris?

[Takara Mallard]

I have to say, I love when she does that because it's such a diva thing to do.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

To be like. And then I decided I was done with America, and I hopped on a boat and I made my way to Paris in 1925. So she's in Shuffle Along. She's in the chorus line, and she's still a teenager. She's not even. She's not even 19 yet. She's in the chorus line in Shuffle along, and she's like, you know what? I'm tired of being in the chorus. I have to do stuff to make myself stand out. So she danced harder than anyone. She'd make really funny faces. She wanted people to think, who is this person she gets into? Chocolate Dandy. Same thing. She's like, I cannot live this life. I have to stand out. So she does. She meets a wealthy patron who's like, you know what? I want to bring this hot new dance called the Charleston to Paris. And I think he'd be perfect. Josephine's like, I would agree with you. I literally am perfect. And so this wealthy patron got her on the boat along with some other musicians for La Revue Nigra, and she became the toast of Paris, actually, quite quickly. That is pretty evident when I read it. I was like, did you leave something out? But truly previews first show. And then if she became a star.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That makes complete sense, because the memoir starts where Monsieur Savage is like, I met Josephine when she was 20 years old. And I said, let's write your memoirs. Yeah. I said, At 20?

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So, like, everybody knew. Monsieur knew. We all knew that, like, at 20 years old, that she was going to need memoirs. And he follows her for 20 years. She also wrote this as you've got a dance with your hips one, then the other, one foot over the other, sticking out your buttocks and waving your arms. We've been hiding our buttocks too much for too long. Buttocks exist. I don't know why we dislike them. There are also buttocks that are terribly silly, of course, terribly pretentious, terribly mediocre. All they are good for is sitting on, if that. I said, excuse me. Buttocks. Comedy monologue. It was like po. It was like funny poetry. And she's just like, off. She's off the dome here, just talking about buttocks.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Now, imagine her saying that, like on a chase lounge, and she just woke up and she's like, caviar. My monologue about buttocks.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. She's like, they're terribly great, except for the mid ones, right?

[Takara Mallard]

Am I right, monsieur?

[Chelsea Demontes]

Am I right, monsieur, or what?

[Takara Mallard]

I love it so much.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So funny. And so the other thing that I think is wild about her is that she's got this famous act where she dances in a skirt made of bananas. And B, it's the bananas are fake. That actually became very important to me. I. I really wasn't sure, but they are fake bananas. And it becomes sort of this symbol of jazz, the symbol of the Roaring Twenties. And then way later in life, she's like, oh, actually, I'm a singer too, and had no idea. She herself was like, I can sing. Oh, my God. And then becomes this musical star, which she has this quote in the book that I love. She said, you have to squeeze a song on all Sides like a lemon.

[Takara Mallard]

I love it.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Can you imagine not knowing you can sing?

[Takara Mallard]

What's really interesting about her discovering this voice is that she does, quote, unquote, sing when she starts. You know, it's vaudeville. Everybody sings, but, yeah, she's doing it for the joke.

[Chelsea Demontes]

My kind of girl.

[Takara Mallard]

There's nothing like exquisite or artistic about it. It's part of this, like, you know, vaudevillian, you know, da na da da da da da.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

And then later on, she's like, oh, my gosh. I'm like, edith B. In this. Like, bow down to me.

[Chelsea Demontes]

She's like, oh, I was already famous for dancing. Y'all are over.

[Takara Mallard]

You're gonna be sick of me.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. And she just. She sells out shows. She travels the world doing this. Okay, let's talk a little bit about petty. So I have famously, on this podcast, talked about how much I hate who love Paris. Like, it brings.

[Takara Mallard]

I'm waiting for it. I'm waiting.

[Chelsea Demontes]

However, this does feel entirely different to me. I just. Here's what happened. I personally knew an woman who loved Paris, and now every time I see that type of woman, it has clouded my entire perception of these girls who are like, oh, my God, I am delinquent to Paris. Like, it's so much better than America. Like, fashion, cafe, latte, whatever, you know, and you're like, oh, fuck off. However she loves. Oh, you know, what did you do? You remember when that insane Texas billionaire's daughter held a wedding in Paris and tick tock, went insane for it because it was like, billions of millions of dollars. Yes. And then as it got famous, they're like, by the way, she's marrying her husband in Paris because he's got like, five days before he goes to court for shooting out a policeman. And then she went up to left. Yes.

[Takara Mallard]

It's not romantic.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That is what I think of are like, I love Paris. It's like this Texas girl being like, I'm gonna go to Paris and like, where Chanel. And get married in the city of love. Sunies. That is not Josephine Baker. What? What? It was your perception of why she loved Paris so much.

[Takara Mallard]

So Josephine Baker, like, her entire life. I love her so much because she's always someone who's yearning. Even at the height of her fame, she's always wanting children or real love experiences. Freedom, acceptance, always wondering why, questioning things. We can get into that more. But Paris makes so much sense to me because even at an early age, she. You know, she said she. She danced because she was cold.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, right.

[Takara Mallard]

And so she danced from St. Louis to Harlem, across the Atlantic to Paris. And when she got to Paris, she was like, this is what freedom looks like. There were people kissing in the street, and no one really paid her any mind. She could be a black girl in Paris, just a girl in Paris walking down the street, and I really love that for her. And she's in Paris in 1925, at the height of the Harlem Renaissance, when actually there are so many black writers and dancers and musicians who are going to Paris and experiencing the same thing. Books have been written about the black expat experience in Paris. It's not just her. It's Nina Simone and James Baldwin and Paul Robinson. They go to Paris and they're like, ah, here I can sit in a cafe, get a, you know, croissant, cafe au la. And, like, you know, just write about life. And no one bothers me here or tells me to go into the colored only section. Which really takes away from my creative moment, you know, dealing with racism.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, yeah. Where you're like, oh, wait, let me make it through horrific racism and then deliver a fun joke.

[Takara Mallard]

Exactly. It's hard.

[Chelsea Demontes]

It's a lot. Yeah, no, you're right. And this was a different. She made me love Paris.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes, me too. I've. Have you been to Paris?

[Chelsea Demontes]

No, I have famously not been to Paris.

[Takara Mallard]

I was like, I know. I know how you feel about it. As you know, I listen to the podcast, but I was like, wait a second. I have not been to Paris. And so when I read Josephine's thoughts on Paris and what it's meant for her, and then later, when she's, you know. You know, 20 years later, when she's, you know, a part of the French Resistance, she's like, I give my life to Paris.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

Because Paris gave its heart to me. Like.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. And she has a song, too, right? She's like, I have two loves, my country and Paris.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen. The Texas oil billionaire girl did Paris dirty. And Josephine brought Paris back from.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So we have a psychic moment in the book, and it is her rabbit foot.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And a guy shows up and he's like, hey, I've got a rabbit foot. It's meant for you. It is, you know, obviously an actual rabbit's foot, and she wishes for jobs off of it and gets jobs. And then one day, a woman in a show with her gets this incredible job, and she realizes it because she stole her rabbit foot.

[Takara Mallard]

Oh, yeah, she did.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And she was like, give me that rabbit. And she's like, this rabbit foot does everything for me. So that's your drink of psychic moment. Also interesting though, because she's a huge. Animal rights. I would. I. I don't know if activist is the right word, but yeah, she's. She's just really into animals. She's always saving them, rescuing them. We have another Durango where, like, she tells the story of a dog dying in a book, which, like, I don't know how many times I have to say that, but like, please stop writing these stories in detail in your memoir. You know what I mean?

[Takara Mallard]

But something really cute is she has the two mice.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That's right.

[Takara Mallard]

That she really, really loves. And I can't remember their names, but it's like Mademoiselle something and Mademoiselle something. And she's like, oh, you know, they're just little flirts, these mice. And I'm like, what are you talking about, Josephine? What are you talking about?

[Chelsea Demontes]

In my other research, I did come across that she loved the story Cinderella because she worked as a maid and they were so impoverished, they were always dirty. So of like a girl who's dirty, like growing up and going to the ball. And listen, I don't know if talking mice are in the original Cinderella, if that was a Disney thing, but if so, we've made a connection.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes, we've come all the way around.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Or did she inspire it? You know, I mean, she's got these two little mademoiselles just flirting. There's another highlight I have where in the memoir he says, josephine Baker often says, the things I enjoy are the end of me. That is her motto. And then there's this long story about a soup that she's loving. She's like, I love this soup. Oh, it's such a good soup. And they're like, josephine Baker, you're on in two. And she's like, I can't. The soup has ended me. I can't perform. And then he says, and now here she is on stage, her arms borne upward by the applause. What delicious soup.

[Takara Mallard]

And they were like, did she say.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That on it sounds like she said that.

[Takara Mallard]

I think she said it on stage.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And was like, haha, I loved it.

[Takara Mallard]

She talks about food a lot in this book.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay, let's talk about how somehow we ended up with another book with recipes in it. How did it happen to us? Listen, how did he get the recipes? How were they included? I have so many questions. Let's go to the recipes. Okay. Did you have a favorite moment from the recipe section, which is starts on 121, I believe.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes. So I. Sorry, Chelsea. I actually love the recipe section. I thought it was hysterical. I'm like, she's funny. She's funny today. I loved it. She's funny today.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That is very true.

[Takara Mallard]

So there are actually two things in this book that I'm actually, like, gonna try and I'll report back.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay. Okay. Page 140. Go ahead. Yes.

[Takara Mallard]

This is the hot cakes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yes. Okay, tell. Tell us about the hotcakes.

[Takara Mallard]

I'm into it. What are these? They're basically pancakes. Right? Pancakes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Right. But yeah. What do you mean you're gonna try these? Because I don't see anything on this other than basic pancakes.

[Takara Mallard]

No, you don't understand. She's greased it with lard.

[Chelsea Demontes]

It's the lard. Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

She's like, no, no, no. It has to sizzle. It needs. And you brown on both sides in the bacon grease. Chelsea. I have never done that before in my life.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay, all right.

[Takara Mallard]

No, this one's my favorite. This one.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

Banana water to get rid of wrinkles.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I also have marked that one. Will you please read the full recipe?

[Takara Mallard]

So this is page 143. Banana water to get rid of wrinkles, if you have any. I love that part because she's like, I can't relate this. Cut five or six bananas into rounds and soak them in alcohol. Alcohol? Alcohol. Like, drink, drink, drink. Okay.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, yeah. Like rubbing alcohol. Or do we think she meant, like bourbon?

[Takara Mallard]

I feel like she meant, like, a clear, like a vodka or a gin.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay. All right. Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

So that's what I'm going to do.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

After six days.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Oh, you're going to do it?

[Takara Mallard]

Oh, God, I'm totally. We're going to need a before and after 100. After six days, the alcohol will have gone down. Top it up with boiled water, leave it to rest, then filter it, wash with it gently in the evening.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Maybe I'll do it, too. I mean, I won't. That sounds really. It's a hard recipe for me personally, but.

[Takara Mallard]

No, I dare you.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I want to. I'm telling you, I want to do it. It's just like, six days. Then, like, what do you filter bananas with regular strainer? I don't know.

[Takara Mallard]

You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna take this to tick tock because I'm sure someone has done this. I'm gonna get more details, I'm gonna figure it out, and then I'm gonna do it.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay. I want to tell you the recipe that I'm not Gonna do but will be thinking about forever. Oh, beauty isn't everything. Do you have any pain?

[Takara Mallard]

Oh, yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Take a really fat rattlesnake, then skin it alive. Then peel off the fat in the same way you removed the skin. Which is what way, Josephine Baker? It's very easy. You could do it with your eyes closed. Knead the fat with your hands, then press it through a strainer, rub a little of this in and you'll have no more pain. But the snake must be skinned alive, you hear? And it's hard to find the right kind of snake in Europe. All the better for him. Poor snake. What the am I reading?

[Takara Mallard]

So earlier you called her an animal activist, and then you read this, and I'm like, we're gonna have to figure out a different word.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, it definitely not activists. Like, she loves animals, even if they are being used in spells to cure your rheumatoid arthritis.

[Takara Mallard]

Oh, God bless her. I love her.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. I had one more favorite favorite quote in this section. One of my favorite quotes of the book. She said, ladies, when you do your makeup, don't do it by halves. Makeup should be noticeable. Otherwise, it's just a trick for the sick.

[Takara Mallard]

I screamed. I screamed.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Sub theme of the podcast. Sub theme of the podcast. I've yelled about glossier for this exact reason. I never had the articulation to say it is a trick for the sick. You motherfucker. Clean, clean. Makeup girl. Movement. Kiss my ass.

[Takara Mallard]

Clean, natural, undetectable. No, stop that. See it?

[Chelsea Demontes]

See it. You are just trying to appear healthy. No, show me makeup.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes. Give me blush. Give me eye. I want to be like, damn, how did you do that? Cut crease, you witch.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Well, I just skinned a rattlesnake alive, rubbed a little bit on my cheeks.

[Takara Mallard]

And I squeezed the fat. God.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Oh, so funny. And then also, yeah, I'm like, monsieur, like, took these recipes down, I guess. Like, I don't know. And then I will say a non highlight for the book. Not a surprise for anyone who knows me. A bunch of the book is broken into countries and just like, like an anecdote from that. But it does read like someone, like, studied abroad and then reported back for me. But please, please. I know. Okay, good, tell me.

[Takara Mallard]

I liked it.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Stand up for people everywhere. I'm not correct in this. I just. I don't like.

[Takara Mallard]

No, no, no, no. I mean, we're sharing, we're vibing.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay. I like this. I like this.

[Takara Mallard]

That's your take. This is my take.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yes.

[Takara Mallard]

Actually really appreciated her sharing this because a lot of times. Well, in the present day, when black people go abroad, they're like, do they like black people there? Can. Can I too go there? So every time she was like, the Netherlands. I'm like, and what happened? You good, sis? So I was, like, dutifully taking notes, which is fantastic. And I also like that she was like, hungry? Yes. Love the paprika chicken. Spain, what they can do with rice. It's not the recipe section, but I'm like, my girl can eat. I love this.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That is so funny. Okay. I love this take on it. I think I was like. And listen, once I realized that she had four other memoirs, I was like, okay, I'm good again. But when. When I was in the moment where I thought this was the only one, I was like, I can't believe we're taking up a paragraph to talk about rice in Spain. Like, we gotta be talking about other stuff here. No, you're right. Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

I love that. So funny.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. There was one really dark part of the Germany section that I thought, yeah, it was like poetry. She said, the first time I was in Germany, I met Max Reinhart, the extraordinary director. The second time I met the tentative ghost of Suicide. I greeted it and I drank beer, and then she just moves on. I said, what is this poetry? Did she speak like that to him? And it's transcribed. Has he removed 10 paragraphs we don't know about? I thought it was a really beautiful way to describe something very haunting and very real and very dark that she was dealing with.

[Takara Mallard]

It also speaks to who she is, which is essentially a survivor. And I think she's always come up against these moments where she's like, this will pass. Even when she was a kid, she'd be like, I won't be here for long. She got married when she was 13 years old, and she was like, I give it a year and literally a year.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So it's like, you're 13. In her second marriage. 15.

[Takara Mallard]

15. Insanity.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Insanity. There was a part at the beginning I loved where she said, two things happened. One, I cut my hair. Two, I cut off my family and moved to Paris. I was like, yeah, the original get a good haircut, change your life, girl. But the breakup was with her entire family.

[Takara Mallard]

Entire family, yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Who she did care for later. But they are really not. They're not really a piece of her deeply. At least not in this book. Like, she cares for them. They're not characters in the book in.

[Takara Mallard]

The Hungry Heart, which is. It came out in the early 90s. And I think her. I keep forgetting her stepson, Foster, like an unofficial adopted son.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. There's a 13th son that doesn't actually get adopted. Jean Claude.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah, Jean Claude. Thank you. Did this huge, expansive project, like over a thousand pages. And it really goes deeply into her relationship with her mother, her grandmother, her quote unquote father. And she would often come to her mother with a lot of issue, a lot of pain, a lot of darkness. And her mom would be like, we literally don't have time for this. You're eight years old. Can't you, like, be working? Like, her mother just did not have time for those really big feelings, Nor did she have time to suffer any of her dreams. Like, she just never wanted to hear it. And I think for Josephine, one of the things that she always yearned for was just someone to take her dreams seriously and to tell her that she could do it. I mean, she did it, but how. Think about how much easier it would have been if someone was, like, in her corner the whole time. But I always felt like she was always on her own.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And also the. The first part of what you said, and I. And I bet you're going to know the actual studies, because I know you, and I'm just going to vaguely reference them, which are, like, oftentimes certain, like, diseases or psychological issues are tied. What they think is to, like, certain ethnicities or races. But when they look at it, it's actually the defining factor is poverty.

[Takara Mallard]

That's right.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And it's that idea of, we don't have time for a mental breakdown. You have to go get food. Like, basically, there's a luxury to being able to feel anything.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And you don't have that luxury when you are in poverty. And her. Her mom being, like, go to work. Obviously she had more with her mom of, like, not being there for her dreams. But it just speaks to, like, it's a privilege to be sad or to.

[Takara Mallard]

Know you're sad 100%. And in that regard, like, I kind of have a lot of empathy for her mother, in that moment, she did not have the words to be like, I'm trying to save you.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

This is a survival skill. It doesn't seem like it now. I seem like a horrible mother, but we have to support ourselves. Like, this is all we have.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. And that's. That's also how she, you know, cuts ties. And I was like, okay, I just have to, like, go and survive. Because her mom had also married a man who was not very nice and also not helping with the bills.

[Takara Mallard]

No. A scrub, if you will.

[Chelsea Demontes]

A scrub. That is exactly right. Her mom married a scrub, never had a job.

[Takara Mallard]

What do you mean?

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay, now, maybe you knew this, but if you had just read this book, who would you have thought Pepito was.

[Takara Mallard]

One of her small goats, that she was always taken around the world with her.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That's right. I was like. So it's like, Pepito comes in here, and she says this. Another incredible, iconic line here. Friendship, you see, is miracle. Right? Now I have five friends. No, six, Maybe seven. An enormous number. You know, the seventh, my audience. It's so beautiful. I have five friends. No, wait. Six, seven. Whoa. What an enormous amount of friends. The seventh friend is my audience, which, listen, as performers. Yeah, it does feel like that.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

You are like, you. This is my best friend. Unhealthy. Yeah. That's why we all go crazy. But feels like a friend. Yeah. I thought that was beautiful. However, I was like, oh, Pepito. And she's like, ah, me and my good pal Pepito just going around. Then later, I'm like, wait, you were married to Pepito? Not only that. Pepito was like, what's up? I'm a count. I am a fancy count, and I should be your manager. Ooh, we got a count husband. Jerry, y'all. And he's like, I should manage you. And she's like, that's tight. You totally should. Then he's like, surprise. I'm not account. And then they stay friends. I'm really lost here, because she seems to love Pepito, but also, again, Pepito could have been a goat if I did not, like, read the way Wikipedia.

[Takara Mallard]

Josephine is really funny because she's like, I'm always falling in love. Every man I've ever been with is my husband. She does this a lot where she's like, yeah. We say, we're staying in touch. We're really great friends. Like, even when she was married to Jean.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. Jean Lyon.

[Takara Mallard]

I divorced him, but I didn't want to. It just wasn't working out. But we're still cool. I love his mom. What are you talking about?

[Chelsea Demontes]

Long paragraph of like, his mom's the best, but didn't tell us she had married Pepito. But we are learning about Jean's mom.

[Takara Mallard]

I was like, savage. You can't put it in the footnotes. Like, what are you talking about? You just let her go on and on.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. Monsieur Sauvage, are you just some rando who jotted terrible notes down? Like, any journalist would come in and add some context here.

[Takara Mallard]

Where are you writing? Yeah, you gotta, you gotta. You gotta give me something.

[Chelsea Demontes]

It's just like the memoir was just like a bunch of napkins at a bar when he, like, transcribed it after drinking banana water. Okay, so here's another part I loved. She said I had, what you might call, quote, a name that sold well. That's always a good life preserver. Not one director thought to teach me the basics. Not one thought to help me, to teach me what I didn't know, what you should know before you start filming. So I swam. And by that I mean I couldn't. I didn't know how. If I had to go to Cinema Court today. Side note. Yeah? I want to see Cinema Hell. Yeah, Someone open that. If I had to go to Cinema Court today for what I filmed, I have no doubt that I'd be found guilty, but also, first and foremost, irresponsible. Put this together however you want. It's all true. But be nice for everyone's sake. Monster Sauvage. So what? Sometimes there's a high price to pay for experience. I know that now. I don't ever want to dance, sing, perform or shoot just because of my name. I'm sorry, let's carry on. Actually, let's start again. I shot three or four films, and then she moves on.

[Takara Mallard]

I was just like, she's mad.

[Chelsea Demontes]

She's mad. And also she. I love the awareness of, like, I was actually pretty bad on camera. However, no one fucking helped me. And also, I needed the money. And I did it again. It's a really beautiful, deep sentiment to know if you took me to Cinema Court, I would be found irresponsible.

[Takara Mallard]

Guilty, guilty, guilty. Yeah, that's really funny. Like Rotten Tomatoes. But like Cinema Court, where you're just like, why, why, why? Actually, tell me what happened here.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Are we in Cinema Court with Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni? Like, is that what we'll be attending this year?

[Takara Mallard]

A word was said.

[Chelsea Demontes]

A word was said. So on page 147, I wrote, She's a witch. I mean, we Knew. Yeah, but this is when I really knew. She said, don't eat animal heads in order to not get headaches. Putting iron between your teeth cures a toothache. Take. It's unlucky to put your right shoe on first. Giving a knife as a gift cuts the ties of friendship. Okay. Hell, yeah. You shouldn't cross knives or forks or walk on cross straws. Everyone knows that moving a piece of burning wood is unlucky. Cinders are sacred. No needlework on Thursday and Saturday afternoons. A thread spun on a carnival day will be eaten by mice. There's a ghost, a guardian that has its feet on the ground and its head in the sky. Most of all, one shouldn't run after money. It's. What do you call it? It's liquid. It flows. You can't hold water. Can't take handfuls of liquid. I have money. 100,000 francs. It's nothing at all worth much less than a smile from a friend.

[Takara Mallard]

So I just did a big, like, paragraph, and I wrote hoodoo.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And I wrote.

[Takara Mallard]

Which I loved it and it makes so much sense. I love her very much. Yeah, these are. These are all hoodoo traditions. You know, don't step on a crack, fall and break. Like, this is all really cool. I loved it.

[Chelsea Demontes]

But new ones, like, I, like. Listen, I'm about to give, like, a beautiful, I don't know, cheese knife to a couple of people in my life and be like, happy birthday. And then just goodbye.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're done.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And we're done.

[Takara Mallard]

You know what else you can do? You write their name, okay, on a piece of paper. You put it in your shoe, and you go for a walk. Walk on them, walk out on them.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Can I tell you, I didn't grow up religious in the way where, you know things. I grew up religious in the way where, like, a bunch of crazy happens to you. But I found out later in life that, like, God says he'll make your enemy your footstool.

[Takara Mallard]

That's right.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And I became obsessed with just that piecemeal of religion. I was like, I'll take that one. So that kind of feels the same. Do you know what I mean? Of, like, put your foot on them. Like, walk on them. Wow. Okay. On the next page, she writes one sentence. White men are odd creatures.

[Takara Mallard]

I was like, keep going. Keep going. Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

She doesn't really go into it. It was just kind of a thought.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah. I was like, again, Monsieur journalist, you should be like, go further, go further.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Also, I'm like, monster sauvage. Is probably a white dude. So it was like, is this about you, bro? Do you need to look in the mirror? I don't know.

[Takara Mallard]

I bet he did something. He did something annoying. And when she was just like. Like, white men are odd creatures. And he's like, oh, drop that down. It was like, no, she was insulting you.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay, jot that down. Put that on the napkin. Talk about you, Monsieur Savage. So the next really incredible piece of this book, I think, is page 155. And she writes, then war broke out. Everything changed so much. Then the joys that survived changed tone. Pleasure wasn't the same. It was less honest. You could say it was anxious. There was something forced about it. Sometimes nightclubs become snake pits, but they became more spectacular, I think more diverse, more artistic. People didn't say cabaret anymore. The word shrunk in the wash. With everything that happened. People said, club, let's go to the club. I said, now. That's the feeling of right now. And the first part being like that joy isn't the same, and pleasure is too anxious that you don't feel it. And it just hit me as, like, that is what I am feeling right now. And then I got so much hope because she then talks about art becoming more spectacular and diverse and artistic and darker and, like, going to just see someone mesmerizing who obviously, at the time is her, kind of made me a little hopeful for art.

[Takara Mallard]

I agree. I love that, too. I wrote Is this Me? Because I agree I feel this anxiety, but I also feel this really intense need to do the things that I love and do them quickly. So I'm.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So.

[Takara Mallard]

I'm like, I need to go. I need to go dance, and I need to call my friends. I need to check on people. And there's just this energy I have where I'm like, I need to bring my community closer to me so they know I'm there for them and they can be there for me. And I. I don't want it to be too late. So I. I feel that immensely.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah, absolutely. And the war really changes her. In the book, she's like, like, so this kind of stuff happened, but, like, I wasn't a spy. Okay. Josephine Baker was definitely a spy, and it was so sick. In the book, she doesn't. Obviously, she's like, winking, like, I wasn't a spy, wink. But basically, she spies on the Nazis for the French Resistance using her status as an entertainer, someone who has to travel, someone who would be at nightclubs, someone who would be talking to different dignitaries and actively spies to help the French Resistance. And even, like, uses performance spaces for them. And like, I don't know how this hasn't been a film.

[Takara Mallard]

There are three specific moments in Josephine Baker's life where I'm like, nothing, nothing. One, her during the Harlem Renaissance. Plantation Club, Cotton Club, like, just the sh.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Why?

[Takara Mallard]

Where is it?

[Chelsea Demontes]

It.

[Takara Mallard]

Two, Agent Josephine. Are you kidding me? And three, her alleged affair with Frida.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Kahlo, which I'm so gagged by. And actually we have to put a pin in that for the Rainbow Tribe.

[Takara Mallard]

But put it over here.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Parking lot Agent Josephine alone. The title's right there. This black female superstar in World War II who, when she travels to the United States, faces such racism that she refuses to perform for segregated clubs, which is how she brings 10,000 people of a non segregated audience together and then becomes this leader in the civil rights movement. There was a 1991 biopic, but I'm talking about a movie like, oh, my God, what is the Ben Affleck movie? Where he like, pretends to shoot a film in order to get like seven American people out of the embassy.

[Takara Mallard]

Argo.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Argo. And I'm like, if Argo was a film, where the.

[Takara Mallard]

Is Agent Josephine 100?

[Chelsea Demontes]

And also these. Come on, these dudes love World War II. I am begging you to stop doing World War II films. And yet this would be the freshest, newest take.

[Takara Mallard]

Cinematic. She's the Lion's Den Chelsea. She's. I mean, like, she. Yes, she's going to clubs and parties, but she's going straight to the Japanese embassy.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yes.

[Takara Mallard]

The Italian embassy.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And she's doing in Pearls.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And Diamonds with a Cheetah. She's singing. She's still got bananas on. And she's like, we must stop the Nazis.

[Takara Mallard]

Exactly. She's hiding her intelligence with invisible ink.

[Chelsea Demontes]

On her body and on her sheet music. Where did you get invisible ink?

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah. Didn't say. Again, no follow up questions.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Monster Sauvage. Just incredible.

[Takara Mallard]

Also a little bit of a tor. Love affair because she's doesn't say in this memoir, but she's having an affair with the guy who recruited her.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. Which.

[Takara Mallard]

Well, every man is her husband.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. So I actually think you should write that movie. I don't know about the. I don't know where the IP is, but like, I don't know, it sounds like it's free to me. And someone's got to write that. It's incredible. And then also she, you know, somewhat in this book where she just starts, like reporting on the segregation she's experiencing in the United States.

[Takara Mallard]

And like, that was tough.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Gathering stories and she's going to make reports about it. And there's obviously, she goes to journalists who were her friends and they're like, actually, I'm racist. I'm not going to help you. And she's like, what? But then there's stories about like, getting kicked out of a club and Grace Kelly running after her and being like, then we're leaving too, and we're never coming back to this motherfucking club. Like, all kinds of stories. So. And not enough in this book. Okay, we're going to transition now and I want to let everyone know this. This second part of the episode is going to get a lot darker, a lot deeper. We're going to discuss some really, really, really tough topics. So if you are not in the place for that, you've enjoyed the first half, go on with your life. If you are ready to just sink a little deeper and get into some tough stuff, let's go into this next part of the episode. Now, we've kind of got three big things to talk about as we, as we end this episode. So I didn't mention the forward at the beginning of this episode, but there's a forward written to this book and it is written by Ijeoma Aluo, who wrote the book so youo Want to Talk About Race, which is a book that I'm pretty sure everyone with a racist aunt purchased and gave as a Christmas gift in 2020. She wrote the foreword to this book and it was actually. I don't know, I'm still really. Let me just tell everyone listening right now, this is going to be a really hard conversation. So this is a trigger warning for a discussion about anti Semitism. So please take care when listening or if you're not in the place for it, bow out now. But in the forward, she wrote a lot about Josephine Baker saying anti Semitic stuff in the book. And she wrote this. Baker's outrage itself is not an error. But without the social and political context surrounding the power dynamics she witnessed, her conclusions and blanket statements can cause harm and contribute to bigotry and anti Semitism, which I do believe Baker would have opposed. It is incumbent upon us to add some context for the reader to keep in mind while reading Baker's words. In its efforts to keep non white populations subjugated, white supremacy has a lot of tools at its disposal. One of the most powerful tools is the ability to pit marginalized populations against one another. And so, because that was at the beginning of the book. Book. And because this is a book that does not stand on its own and is very much a companion piece. And like, a lot of the things that you and I have shared in this episode, like, were not in this book. I. It gave me a really horrible read into this book because I'm like, I don't want to read Anti Semitism. Like, I was like. And I. To the point where I had made it so far in the ends of the book, I was like, did it get cut out? Yeah, but they printed that anyway. Like, I was so, so confused because prior to this section in the book, she has fought against Nazis. She has fought against Hitler. She's talked about taking him down. She has of her own volition and. And using her own resources, she has taken in Jewish refugees. She has helped them escape. She is married to a man who is Jewish. Later in life, though it's not in the book, I know that she adopted a child and raised the child in the Jewish faith. And so I didn't understand how all of that fit into the context of this section where when she gets to Harlem, she starts to write about these landlords who happen to be Jewish who have like bought a bunch of apartment buildings, who then are really mistreating black people.

[Takara Mallard]

Right.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And being really racist towards black people and, you know, all the things that come with that. And. And in a very racist time. And she seems to be saying, like, I cannot believe that we just survived the Holocaust, we have just fought through this, that anyone could turn around who knows that experience or has relatives in that experience and also participate in the. The oppression of another human being.

[Takara Mallard]

Right?

[Chelsea Demontes]

And she goes so far in what she's saying that she writes some really anti Semitic things. And she wrote, when one hears that in the entire world, it's Jews who shout and beg for mercy the loudest and they have good reason for that, to demand justice and equality between people. And then you see how they treat colored people in America. In fact, how can we not manage to persuade ourselves that what they're doing is emotional fraud, that they're only demanding equality for themselves, only the rights that let them be evil, as vicious as their enemies. And so what was like, really important to talk about in the foreword, which she did, which is like, you can never blanket statement an entire group of people that is extremely harmful. There are so many Jewish people who fought against oppression and racism. Did and do. And currently. What are your thoughts on this?

[Takara Mallard]

I'd like to read some other stuff, if I may. Just give the folks a little bit more context. 100% agree. Chelsea, she speaks in absolutes. There is. There's very little nuance in this section of the book, and it was very jarring.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

Especially because, as I said earlier, she's so inquisitive. She asked a lot of questions. There were no questions. She says every colored boxer's manager is a Jew. Many of the gangsters are Jews. The Jews are moving further and further out of Harlem. The Jews have money, too. Lots. Always more money. And they pay in cash. They found the trick to secretly buying what they were banned from, all these tricks under false names. And it's interesting because I'm like, oh, like, this is where the Kanye's and the Kyries get it from.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That's exactly what I thought. Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

It's just this thing that just trickles down from these moments where you look at stuff like this and you're like. You remove all nuance from it, and then these tall tales get told, and it's like, oh, the cabal, they're like, you know, they control the banks and all this other stuff when there truly is no question being asked here. It's just someone who's being very hurt. And something else that I want to share is that there's a refrain in this section that she keeps mentioning, you know, the no Jews, no dogs, whatever. And I think she's really hurt because she's like, we're on the same sign.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

We're not allowed in. None of us. Us.

[Chelsea Demontes]

You are oppressed. Like, Jewish people are oppressed. We are oppressed. It's no dogs, no Jews, and no horrifically offensive term for black people like that. Those are the signs everywhere. So she doesn't understand why they're not all together.

[Takara Mallard]

And so she's making the assumption that she's like, okay, I'm going to call you all Jews, but clearly you've given this up to just be white. And you are going to continue to oppress me and people who look like me. And therefore, I guess we're not on the same side.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. Which again, is like erasing all of the people. All of them are on your side.

[Takara Mallard]

Including her husband, which she makes a small caveat. But I'm like, it's too late.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And his mom.

[Takara Mallard]

And his mom.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And what's really. And again, we have a lot pinned for the Rainbow Tribe. We have to pin something about this. Because I think what's really important in this conversation and in this piece of the book is anti Semitism is never. Okay. You have to name it. You have to speak against it like it is something that cannot spread said. What she has written here is anti Semitic. I think what we've seen in the conversation, especially like this year, is some things being named as anti Semitism that actually aren't, which I've seen, like the. The speakers and friends who I love speak out against that of like, you have to really purposefully use that word. So, for example, like, criticizing a government is criticism of a government, not of a people.

[Takara Mallard]

Right.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And so I think those things have gotten conflated. And so I think. Think Ijeoma really felt specifically in this year with this book coming out that that was like, really important to talk about in the beginning. And I think we give a lot, a lot of grace to white people born in these years who did great things but were racist. Right. And there's a lot of grace given to those stories of like, it was those were the times back then, blah, blah, blah. And instead of doing that, what I think is interesting to focus on as we dissect this story or a story like Mae west or all the many people who, you know, have things like this in the past, and people try and put it in context. I think the important context is that you can have really good intentions and ideals and you can fight these beautiful fights that are anti racist or feminist and, and be groundbreaking and still inflict harm. And I think that's something we don't think about of, like the ways a progressive or a liberal might be inflicting harm through another bias or it kind of makes me think of like the original Women's March where they got together to really march against Trump. And then it comes out like all of these factions down below are actually causing a lot of harm to different ethnic groups and. And different gender groups. And so I think I see it happening all the time now. We see it happening in history and like that. That's the thing to dissect when you have these incredible ideals. Where are the ways they can still go wrong in your life?

[Takara Mallard]

100%. And as someone who loves Josephine Baker has a matchbook altar for Josephine Baker, I recognize that she's not morally pure.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

And I recognize that this section of this memoir is anger. There's this outrage that she has, but it is misplaced. And I think it's really interesting that she starts all of this by first complimenting George Gershwin, who is a Jewish musician, and does Porgy and Bess, the first black opera.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Right.

[Takara Mallard]

So she's like, oh, my God, blah, blah, blah, white people and black people on the stage, Porgy and Bess. It's, you know, it changed everything.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So to button this section, I just want to reiterate that it's really important that this anti Semitism is called out. And I think taking the horrific parts of icons of the past and including it in their context so that we can like learn from them, move forward without it. And I felt similarly when I was reading Mae west book who I am obsessed with and I adore and she just, she's, she did so many incredible things for women and comedy. But it's just, just casually to blatantly racist in the book. Even down to like Mae west stole the shimmy from a woman in Harlem and is so racist that she's just telling you in the book like she has no, you're like. What you're describing is that you stole her art. And she's like, can you imagine? I saw this one woman doing it and then I did it and made it famous. And so. And it's heartbreaking and just shouldn't be ignored.

[Takara Mallard]

I agree. That was, that was a great button up. And I will add that the publishers do sort of have a caveat saying that this book is in a time and place.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

And we are not augmenting the words. And we hope that this can be a teachable moment. I hope that we can have a conversation about anti Semitism and racism and white supremacy, which is really what this.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Is, which is really the root of it. And I, you know, someone left a comment on my Instagram of like, I wish authors wouldn't say, I believe this person would be against this. Now unless they have evidence to that like, basically, like don't round them up into a good person if you don't know it. However, I do feel pretty strongly that we have evidence that Josephine Baker meant to talk about white supremacy and did not have the tools to do it because it's what, 1949 when this is published? So knowing what. Because she's gonna. We're about to talk about some other crazy that happened. It kind of reminded me of some liberal that goes horribly awry where like in the name of doing something good, you actually perpetuate a lot of harm which will take us to the Rainbow Tribe.

[Takara Mallard]

Okay, let's do it. Oh God.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Wasn't in the book.

[Takara Mallard]

No.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Imagine my surprise post, post memoir when I stumbled upon the Rainbow Tribe, which is the name Josephine gives for the 12, unofficially 13 children that she adopts with her husband, Joe Jo. So she's Josephine, he's Joe, he is her Fifth husband, which, by the way, I was like five. I just. Listen, the book skipped a lot. And she sets out. First off, she has had trouble conceiving. She has miscarriages. She has an emergency hysterectomy. This is obviously a pain point in her life. And she ends up deciding to adopt these children, each from different parts of the world. She wants different races, different ethnicities, different religious backgrounds as a way to prove to people that racism is taught, it's not natural. So she wants to show that if you grow up in a home without racism, obviously all races, religions and ethnicities can get along well with each other. This is like a man made problem, not something you inherently. It's not science. Okay. Beautiful. We love it. What an ideal. My God, how this goes wrong. Oh, my God, how this goes wrong. Okay, so a couple highlights. Lights.

[Takara Mallard]

Sorry.

[Chelsea Demontes]

She is busy going around grabbing a kid from a continent. Like, we are at a shopping market. It's. It's like she said of the food court in a mall. And she's like, okay, we gotta go to. We gotta go to Orange Julius. Gotta get some subway. Well, now you know, we need. So it's like the way she's procuring this child, these children, not great. She wants to adopt an Israeli child, which I. I can only draw my own conclusions now to show that black children and Israeli children obviously don't inherently have hate towards each other. However, the Israeli government are like, fuck no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And we're trying to get more children to Israel. Like, no, you cannot have an Israeli child. However, she has decided that she's doing this. And so she adopts a French child, gives him a Jewish name, and raises him religiously Jewish. She also has sort of done a it's a small world on all the other children, where one is raised as Buddhist, one is racist Catholic again. It's. This ideal, however, is like just a really up experiment on these adopted children. And then as she starts performing less and less, she charges money for tourists to come and see, like the children singing songs and like being happy. And I said Josephine Baker, the first mommy vlogger. I wasn't ready for this. Wasn't ready. Well, let me pause here. Anything, Anything I'm missing so far? There's obviously a lot more to get into.

[Takara Mallard]

No. Sounds about right.

[Chelsea Demontes]

It's rough. Okay, let me give you some more highlights. So please. I think one of the wildest things is that the child from the Netherlands, she finds out when he's 15, Jerry, that he is gay. And she chastises him and is horrific to him and sends him away because he is gay. Now, let's back up to her affair with Frida Kahlo. She had an earlier lover or husband who went on record saying she was a bisexual woman.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And had affairs. Now, listen, sometimes men be wiling. I don't know if we can trust that. But then there's multiple other sources talking about how she had many affairs with women, women. And so obviously it's a hurt people, hurt people situation. But she has not dealt with her queer identity. And when faced with one of her children forming their own identity outside of this kind of maniacal peace and love, perfect children household, she's homophobic to him.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And then it. It said it. It's noted upon that maybe they later reconciled.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes. So I want to back up really quickly about the. The visitation to the Rainbow Tribe villa. It's a small World Disney thing. I truly believe that she loved all those children. I want to state that on the record. Don't edit that out. She loved those kids.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

Her lifestyle was not compatible with raising that many children.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

And then we get into an issue that I mentioned earlier where, like, no one told her no. There are people in the Hungry Heart who go on record being like, like, I thought that was a terrible idea. But I went ahead and went to the Japanese embassy to see if we can get her those two Japanese. And I'm like, why would you do this? You know, she's running out of money. She's like, money's liquid. You don't chase it. And it's like, you have to chase it when you have 12 kids. Josephine. Let's start there. Josephine. And if you are upset with Mama Carrie for making you work, why are you making those children work? Sure, they're not domestics in, you know, a white woman's house. And they're not being abused, but, like, you're putting them on display. You're letting strangers take photos of them and question you as a mother. How strange.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Also, there's this. There's this other weird part of it where she had this chateau and she said, I want to make it public. I want to. I want people to see it and come see us as an act of activism. I want them to see a black woman with white wealth.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

And so there's that good intention again of, like, come and see that all races and ethnicities can get along and be happy. Come and see that a black woman can be wealthy. You. And then the flip side of it is, like, no, don't charge.

[Takara Mallard]

Right. And we can see that, too, because we don't. I don't know how you feel about zoos, but we don't. Right. We have an understanding about what a zoo is, how we feel about circuses with animals and sideshows. That was not the case in the early 1950s. It just was what it was. What a perfect way to do this. Actually. The first zoos were people. So she's taking it back. She's doing, like, a reverse uno. Reverse. So it makes sense for her. She's like, what can I do? You know what I really loved in Prague? The zoo. You know? So she's, like, doing this all over again. And then to the point with her, you know, making her child leave. You know, she makes him live with. She sends him to Argentina.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Okay.

[Takara Mallard]

To be with her husband, who.

[Chelsea Demontes]

That's right.

[Takara Mallard]

Is openly queer.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Huh?

[Takara Mallard]

The whole time. Chelsea. What? The whole time, motherfucker.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I'm telling you, I needed, like, where is the after essay in this book to tell me what the hell is not in here?

[Takara Mallard]

Joe and Joe partied. They partied hard. She knew about him. He knew about her. So I'm. It's very interesting is this. I don't know.

[Chelsea Demontes]

With the child. He also becomes her ex. I also. All right, so she really cannot make enough money to sustain the mansion and to sustain the 12, 13 children, because the 13 one comes in Jean Claude, who doesn't officially get adopted, but she then farms the children out.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

So a couple to one husband, a couple to another husband. Two of the daughters go to a fan. Yeah, A fan of Ms. Josephine Baker's gets the children. And there's this weird parallel with Jonestown, which was also started. I know I've gone to Jonestown in the. And the Jonestown massacres, but that was also started on, like, racial equality. We can all come together. I believe he had something called, like, the Rainbow Room, where he would, like, have a bunch of different children of different races. And it's like, look at these children I have. And there's this small thing in there that they really missed back then, but we can pay attention to now, which is the adoptee trauma that happened from this and that. You are preying upon people with the least amount of power, therefore, they can be subjugated more easily to your crimes and atrocities. That's right. And that also goes to, like, money is like. When I read the, like, money is liquid. It's energy. What's more precious than a friend's smile? I read it, and I was like, ugh, I love this. And 10 minutes later I was like, that is what a cult tells you before they drain your bank account. And money is actually a series of mathematical decisions. It is not energy. Yeah. And then she runs out of money and starts just giving all these children away. And I know there is a book written on what happened to these children. It is written by a fellow adoptee. So I know that I am not personally strong enough for this book yet, as I have a lot of deep personal feelings about this as well. But I hope one day to be and to read it and to read what happened. But I have some terrible updates, which is that Jean Claude, who did a lot of like work on his mom's biography and gave a lot of beautiful quotes to the press and made a comic book. He died by suicide when he was 70.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Which was like a horrible ending to this story. And it's also something Josephine dealt with and it's also something now till this day, adoptees and donor conceived children suffer from death by suicide by like four times. A child that knows its biological parents.

[Takara Mallard]

Truly devastating. And Grace Kelly appears in the story again because, as you know, Josephine thinks money is liquid and she goes on television and she's asking for help to save the chateau. Brigitte Bardot sees this and a number of very famous French celebrities and they help her out, including Grace Kelly, who sets her up with a place in Monaco and helps get her remaining children in schools. And it's at this point where Josephine becomes less of a day to day mother and more of a godmother who kind of just like checks in and says, I love you and hope you're well and never, never really admitting that she shouldn't have done it.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah.

[Takara Mallard]

Which is such a bummer because I know she loves them because she says this in the book. She's in Copenhagen and she's like entertaining some children and she says, but I was even happier than those little girls because to me, you know, all little boys are kings and all little girls are princesses. There is nothing more beautiful or more regal in this world world than a child. Wouldn't you say A tantrum makes a prince of any child.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Oh, wow. Yeah. That was really beautifully said. And to add to that and make it dark again, a really important takeaway when we are discussing adoptees. I'm gonna say donor conceived kids speak on behalf of all of us. And also something you can tie into like documentaries, like an update from our family who also did international adoptions. A really, really important point is that I know she loves those children. Love is not enough. 100 love is not enough with biological children. Love is really not enough with adoptee children. Like, this is a trauma. This is a human being. This is not someone you mold via your love. And if you don't have the means to take care of them, and you are going to give them up, give them away, farm them out, it's just horrifically traumatic. So that brings us to the end of this memoir, where Monsieur Sauvage is like, well, that's that. And then in the afterword, in 2021, her remains are moved to the Pantheon in France, and she is the first black woman to be buried there. To which I say 2021. But, okay. And it's this, like, very high honor. And Jean Claude spoke out about that as well. And then the book, you know, really didn't cover the parts that we had just talked about. But then this part of the memoir is over. And the afterword was written by Jean Claude Bouillon Baker.

[Takara Mallard]

It made me cry.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. What part?

[Takara Mallard]

I thought it was. I thought it was really beautiful. And again, Josephine's not perfect. And I was like, you know, I don't know if she deserves all of this. You know, I don't know if she deserves all of this, Jean Claude. But this is someone who recognizes her faults and desperately wanted her to, I don't know, be that mother. I'm trying to find the part that I really enjoyed.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I mean, also, this is my projection on here. But he is the 13th child. He's not officially adopted. He is an adoptee. I could feel in him the thing you feel in me, where it's just like, you want parental love so badly that I think carrying on her legacy gave him a lot and that it didn't always come from, obviously, an objective place.

[Takara Mallard]

So when she is welcomed into the Pantheon. This is page 272. He says you will rub shoulders with the great literary minds of Victor Hugo and Emile Zola, universal defenders of the poor and degenerators of injustice. You, whose time in classroom education was fleeting at best, you will stand beside them for your lifetime of wisdom and innovation or initiative. And then he names people like Marie Curie and Simone Viau. And it's just such a beautiful thing. Your destiny has been fulfilled at the utmost boundary between the hearts of the living and the souls of the dead. Now you can let go and enter another eternity. In the same way, you move through every stage of your life with panache.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I think that's a beautiful way to End it. Let's do the booktal test. Are you ready?

[Takara Mallard]

Never. But let's go.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Takara Mallard]

No.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. I'm going no for Josephine. And a no for Monsieur Sauvage. Bro, you fucked up.

[Takara Mallard]

You didn't even try.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

I'm a no.

[Takara Mallard]

Oh, okay.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Had I known everything then?

[Takara Mallard]

Yes.

[Chelsea Demontes]

But I definitely went in blinds, and I was like. And also with the foreword, I was like, I don't want to read this. Like, it was rough. It was really rough. I had to. I will say, it was so entertaining. Learning about her life, finding other sources, talking to you about it. Like, that was the best. But the memoir, standalone, It's a no for me. Final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Takara Mallard]

No, because like I said, it was a companion piece. Yeah, it was. It was lovely to hear these things in her voice, but I knew a lot of these stories, but I guess it elevated it because it's always a joy to talk to you.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. Which also never counts. So that's a no.

[Takara Mallard]

Damn, Chelsea, I'm trying.

[Chelsea Demontes]

No, I know. Listen, there. I wouldn't say there's probably, like, 25 of the episodes. People are like, well, it was elevating talking to you. And it's like, thank you. I love you, too. That doesn't count. It's a no. It can fail the test. It's fine.

[Takara Mallard]

Then. No.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Yeah. I'm also on the book alone. No. But I do want to call out a line where I'm like, yes. She wrote in this book. Look, I've seen lots of famous people, but few impressive ones. And as someone currently living in Hollywood, I said, oh, put that. I'll put that in my shoe and walk around. You know what I mean?

[Takara Mallard]

Hell, yeah, you will.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Takara, tell people where they can, first and foremost, follow your Tick Tock account, but then also all the other ways they can find you. Also, if you are in our behind the Banks program, you know Takara. Okay. Tell people everything.

[Takara Mallard]

Yes. Fantastic. While TikTok is still here, feel free to follow me there. Takara's library. I'm recapping children's books because we all should be reading them to Carry Elise everywhere else. I'm talking comedy and my really, really amazing quality thoughts.

[Chelsea Demontes]

They are really, really good. Okay, thank you for coming on. And listen, one day. One day you'll read a book that we love.

[Takara Mallard]

Yeah. One day I'll put it on the altar.

[Chelsea Demontes]

Everyone, put it on your altar. And also everyone please go. Leave Takara nice comments so that she comes back to us. Okay, Bye bye. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash T r a s h 2 audiobooks for the price of one at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.