Katherine Moennig and Leisha Hailey's Memoir So Gay For You (with Catherine McCafferty)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Episode: Katherine Moennig and Leisha Hailey's Memoir So Gay For You (with Catherine McCafferty)
Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host/Author: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Catherine McCafferty

---

Introduction

In this vibrant episode of Glamorous Trash, host Chelsea Devontes delves into the recently released memoir So Gay For You: Friendship, Found Family, and the Show That Started It All by Katherine Moennig and Leisha Hailey. Joining Chelsea is Catherine McCafferty, a comedian and host of the popular digital series Pretty Gay. Together, they explore the memoir's insights into celebrity life, queer representation, and the enduring legacy of The L Word.

---

Overview of the Memoir

So Gay For You serves as a heartfelt celebration of Katherine Moennig and Leisha Hailey's journey through their iconic roles as Shane and Alice on The L Word. The memoir functions as a love letter to the show, highlighting not only their professional experiences but also the profound friendship and chosen family that blossomed during its six-season run and subsequent reboot, The L Word: Generation Q.

---

The Impact of The L Word

Chelsea and Catherine discuss how The L Word was a pivotal force in queer representation on television. Catherine notes, “[Kate] was working in a sunglasses hut…" illustrating the humble beginnings that led to her breakthrough role, reflecting the memoir's theme of perseverance ([14:23]).

Notable Quote:

"It is a love letter and a celebration not only of the job that honestly changed our lives and raised us to a certain degree completely, but also the sisterhood and chosen family that we naturally were lucky to be a part of."
— Catherine McCafferty ([02:22])

---

Navigating Hollywood and Coming Out

The conversation delves into the challenges Kate faced while coming out in the early 2000s Hollywood, a time when being openly queer was fraught with professional and personal risks. Catherine shares her admiration for Kate's courage, aligning it with her own experiences in queer media creation.

Notable Quote:

"Kate didn't feel comfortable coming out because she knows it'll impact her career and her family. She doesn't know if she's ready to be out."
— Catherine McCafferty ([22:02])

---

Friendship and Collaboration

A significant portion of the memoir focuses on the deep friendship between Kate and Leisha. Chelsea highlights how their bond was both a source of strength and a catalyst for personal growth. They discuss the memoir's unique structure, where both authors write collaboratively, maintaining a balance that keeps their stories engaging without unnecessary repetition.

Notable Quote:

"They had to split a memoir, so you never got to go, like, really, really deep, which also has its flaws because you're like, wait, what happened with your mom?"
— Catherine McCafferty ([09:32])

---

Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Chelsea and Catherine relish sharing behind-the-scenes anecdotes from the memoir, including casting tales, interactions with guest stars like Pam Grier, and the notorious storyline where Jenny, a central character, was murdered. These stories provide a glimpse into the complexities of producing a groundbreaking yet sometimes problematic show.

Notable Quote:

"Pam Grier was one of the kindest people I'd ever met... She's just a badass on camera but was one of the kindest people."
— Catherine McCafferty ([37:54])

---

The Reboot: Generation Q

The reboot of The L Word, however, faced significant challenges. Catherine and Chelsea discuss how the attempt to revive the show with an expanded cast resulted in a diluted narrative, lacking the depth and focus that made the original beloved. They critique the decision-making processes behind the reboot, emphasizing the need for authentic queer voices in leadership roles.

Notable Quote:

"They ended up accepting way less than they were worth because they felt like it's that thing of, 'Oh, well, there's only one show.' We've never been given chances."
— Catherine McCafferty ([58:07])

---

Representation in Modern Media

The episode touches on the broader themes of representation in today's media landscape. Catherine expresses disappointment over the lack of quality queer ensemble shows, contrasting it with the rich legacy of The L Word. They lament the slow progress and the recurring pitfalls in Hollywood's handling of queer narratives.

Notable Quote:

"Look, we're not painting with a broad brush, but most people would argue that straight people have the 'bad lifestyle' and queer people have the 'good lifestyle.'"
— Chelsea Devontes ([69:18])

---

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Catherine shares her personal journey in the queer entertainment industry, including her experiences with dating and creating queer content. These stories mirror the memoir's emphasis on building one's own path in a often unwelcoming environment.

Notable Quote:

"When Leisha's not getting jobs, she's like, 'I'm gonna make something with my hands. I'm gonna build these houses.' And Kate's like, 'I'm gonna find roles that I love.'"
— Catherine McCafferty ([61:49])

---

Book Review: The Dull Test

Concluding the discussion, Chelsea and Catherine apply the Dull Test to the memoir, evaluating its vulnerability, entertainment value, and impact.

1. Were the authors vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

   • Catherine: "Yes, absolutely. I got more of a sense of Leisha emotionally than Kate, but I thought that they were vulnerable in their friendship."
   • Chelsea: Agrees wholeheartedly.

2. Was it entertaining to read?

   • Catherine: "Absolutely, yeah. Cried, laughed, loved it."
   • Chelsea: Emphasizes the emotional rollercoaster the memoir provided.

3. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

   • Catherine: "It made me want to rewatch the L Word. It made me want to write another L Word."
   • Chelsea: Reflects on how the memoir fosters a desire for more authentic queer representation in media.

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with appreciations for the memoir and encouragement for listeners to explore both the book and The L Word. Catherine provides her contact information for fans interested in her work, and Chelsea thanks the production team.

Final Notable Quote:

"This book is so important. Everyone needs to read this."
— Catherine McCafferty ([46:35])

---

Where to Follow

• Catherine McCafferty:
  • Patreon: Pretty Gay on Patreon
  • Online: @Catherine_McCaff
  • Live Show: Dynasty Typewriter, Los Angeles on June 22

---

Support the Podcast:

If you love audiobooks and want to support independent bookstores, visit Libro.fm and use code TRASH for two audiobooks for the price of one in your first month.

---

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a deep dive into So Gay For You, shedding light on the intertwined lives of two beloved actresses and their enduring impact on queer representation in media. Whether you're a longtime fan of The L Word or new to their stories, this memoir promises to elevate your understanding and appreciation of their contributions to pop culture.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontes]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today is a memoir episode. We are book clubbing. So gay for you. Friendship, Found Family and the show that Started it all by Kate Menig and Leisha Haley.

[Christina Lopez]

Released.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Released the very day this episode comes out on June 3rd. So the book is hot off the presses. And you know Kate and Lisha from the L Word, which began airing in 2004, which was wild to realize. They played Shane and Alice respectively, and the series ran for six seasons. And then in 2019, the series came back the L Word, Generation Q. And they played their roles again and they were also executive producers. You also probably know them from their beloved podcast pants, which they started back in 2020. And they've been in a bunch of other stuff as well, including Kate's roles on shows like Ray Donovan and Grown Ish. And Leasha has a huge music career that started in the early 90s with the pop duo the Murmurs and then part of her band, uh huh, her, which I think is my favorite band name ever. Now I have forced our producer Christina Lopez to, to stay on mic for this episode because I just feel like, I just feel like there's gonna be something she needs to say, something I need her to say. So you may hear her popping in and out and let's dive in. This is a celebration of our years.

[Christina Lopez]

On the L Word. It's really like a. It's a love letter to the L Word. That's the best way to say it.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It is a love letter and it's a celebration not only of the job that honestly changed our lives and raised us to a certain degree completely, but.

[Christina Lopez]

It'S a celebration of and the sisterhood.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And the chosen family that we naturally were lucky to be a part of.

[Christina Lopez]

Yes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

My guest today is Catherine McCafferty, a comedian, actor and host of a viral digital series titled Pretty Gay, where she goes on mock dates with queer comedians like former glamorous trash. Guest and fave, Allison Reese. You may have seen Catherine in the Queer High School Rom Com Crush or on the Internet where she is wildly popular. Hi. Thank you so much for being here.

[Christina Lopez]

Thank you so much for having me. I am such a fan of this podcast.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I'm so honored. I'm so happy you reached out because when I was looking at all your stuff, I was like, could there be a better book in history than this book for you? Because. Will you tell me about your series? Because it's only on Patreon and so I feel like a lot of people are gonna wanna check this out because we have a Patreon too.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. So the full episodes are only on Patreon. We release, like, clips on Instagram and TikTok. Also, there's a seven day free trial on Patreon, which I am consistently plugging and producers are like, stop doing that. So it's sort of a way where I trick queer comedians and creators to go on dates with me. We get to play.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And it's a trick because it's a sketch. But also like, what if there was chemistry? Is it like that?

[Christina Lopez]

Honestly, I'm like, I'm in love with all of you. And they're like, I have a wife. But it's so, so, so fun. And I' so happy to, like, watch it, like, blossom and grow. We started, like, filming in a basement and now we film on a soundstage and we batch shoot all the episodes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, my God.

[Christina Lopez]

So it's just like. Yeah, it's been just such a rewarding and exciting process. And I loved reading this book because I felt like when Kate is talking about her experience on the L Word and sort of like coming out and then learning new things, I feel like through the digital series that I do, I have learned a lot about queer culture because I came out a while ago, but I immediately got into a very serious relationship. We got engaged and then that ended.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Well, how old were you when you got engaged?

[Christina Lopez]

Well, I wasn't young. I came out late, So I was 29 and then.

[Catherine McCafferty]

That sounds pretty young to me.

[Christina Lopez]

Well, yeah, yeah. But do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It's not like you were like, I was 18 and. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Christina Lopez]

No, I came out, like, later. And so I also loved, like, Kate talking about that journey for her. So it was just really special to read the book and to be like, oh, man. Yeah, this parallels a lot in my.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Life right now and it is so interesting. Yeah. To go straight into a really serious relationship and you miss some of those, like, wilder years, but then, like, you get to have them now. And I also love that you're making comedy out of it, which is the best way.

[Christina Lopez]

I agree. Exactly. And then I'm like, I don't know how to date, so let me make a show about it.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. And we'll learn as we go. Called Pretty Gay on Patreon. But also, people can see clips. Okay. Also very, you know, big crossover tones here with, like, a TV show. This sketch show you're doing where it's, like, relating to real life but also, like, has an impact on culture. So what was your relationship to the OG L Word TV show?

[Christina Lopez]

Oh, my God. Okay. I found the L Word much later. So when it was already off the air and it was on Netflix, which they talk about in the book, that it, like, got released. Released on Netflix. And that is how it came into my life, because I grew up, I didn't have cable. I also wasn't, like, old enough to watch a show like that. Like, I wasn't watching Sex and the City when it was on either. So I loved when it came on Netflix. I got to sort of binge it and then be like, I'm gay.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I love that so much. And I think about that a lot. That by the time I was binging Sex and the City, it had been off the air for seven years.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Like, it was done because, like, I missed it when it came out. And it's also so funny that these shows hit Netflix and people eat them up.

[Christina Lopez]

And there's so much sex, like, there's so much that I felt like I learned about sex through. Because that's what people do, though. You know, like, when I think back, and I was like, I don't know how to kiss anyone. I was watching Gilmore Girls, and I was, like, watching, like, a kiss on Gilmore Girls, being like, and this is how we kiss, you know? And I'm, like, 14, like, trying to figure that out. And then when I came out of the closet, I felt like there was no, like, roadmap. There were no, like, shows and culture being like, and this is how you have sex. And this is how you, like, aren't, like, 14 kissing. This is how you're in your 20s kissing.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yes, I noted this page. I want to read it because it's speaking to exactly what you're saying. A lot of the criticism regarding the L Word, it is that it pandered to the male gaze that has never sat right with me, the creators, almost all the writers, and many of the directors were gay women dedicated to capturing female desire. We wanted to show that women sexualize other women, sometimes to the point of objectification. We gaze, too. We lust after a great rack or a thick set of hips. Not all lesbians are looking to rent a U haul. Sometimes we just want to give it away. I think this was inconceivable to some of the audience, so they assumed these sexcapades originated in male fantasy. For these critics, it was more comfortable to imagine men imposing their sexual appetites onto the series than it was to accept that women were writing openly about the hunger, craving, and passion we feel for each other. Which, yeah, I loved getting that hindsight take on the show because there was another paragraph where they talked about how important it was. Like, they were young actors who, like, had had to be nude, had to do sex scenes, but then would feel like. Like. I think Lisha wrote about how there's not a lot of, like, sexual. Like, hot, hot female sex on screen. Therefore, I really need to act this sex scene well, because it'll be one of the few hot sex scenes, like, that lesbians will get to have. And, like, the feeling so much, which feels, like, so much pressure, but also, like, also so beautiful to be like, this is for the culture. Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And I'm so happy that she did it, and she did it very well.

[Catherine McCafferty]

So this memoir, it's kind of wild. It's really wild in that it's two best friends writing a memoir together, which takes a really high level of relationship and friendship to be able to do. And I'm actually reading another memoir doing this, but they're sisters. It's the heart memoir. But, yeah, I've rarely seen this. And they go back and forth, and one's writing the other's writing. And it's also really hard to do because you don't want, as a reader, like, the repetition of the same stories over and over again. I felt like they did that really well. How did you feel?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, I know. I agree. I, like, really ate this up. And if anything, it made me just want individual memoirs from each of them.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I know. Yeah. It's funny. It was, like, so light, so fun, so juicy. So much Hollywood goss. And I think in part it's because they had to split a memoir. So you never got to go, like, really, really deep, which also has its flaws because you're like, wait, what happened with your mom?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, we, like, skipped around, especially during the childhood bits or, like, when they were, like, growing up and then going to college. I had to like, keep going back and reminding myself, like, wait, what year is it? What. What are we doing? But I loved it and I loved that it says friendship found family in the show that started it all as like the. I have it next to me as like the little. What. What's that called? The.

[Catherine McCafferty]

The little blurb.

[Christina Lopez]

Subtitle Subtitle Subtitle yeah, and thank you.

[Catherine McCafferty]

See, I. I knew I would need Christina on mic and Christina, don't you cut that?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, so as like the subtitle. And so it made sense that the bulk of the memoir was about the show and about their life, like post slash during the show. And so I really enjoyed that a lot. But it did make me sort of crave like more of their coming of age story.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, totally. And I think I'm in such a distinct specific place creatively right now that I. That it really hit for me where I was like, yes, just all of the show stuff and the career stuff, because it actually some stuff really fails and doesn't go well. And memoirs often don't spend time in those parts, you know? Cause they're like, oh, and then I'll get to a better thing. And like, they spent a lot of time being like, here's how the reboot let us down.

[Christina Lopez]

I loved that. I loved it so much. Cause they knew that it also let the fans down and they weren't pretending. They were like.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like it's nice that they wrote it at this point in their life and with the podcast behind them to know that they could do that. Because otherwise I think you'd feel so much pressure to like, anyone who did, like the show or people who worked on the show that you couldn't address, like, how it went awry and yeah, it was so cool that they did. Let's go to the very beginning and discuss the origin of this friendship. This is so wild. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Teen Mom Z. My mom texted me a selfie and she said, I need makeup help. And I said, good, because now I know what I'm getting you. For Mother's Day, I got her a bunch of products from Thrive Cosmetics. Let me just tell you what I got her the Brilliant eye brightener, the deluxe mini Liquid Lash Volumizer Mascara. I also got her the instant brow fix and two lip filler long wearing plumping lip liners. I cannot recommend these products more. They're vegan, they're cruelty free. And Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes that really matter with every single purchase. If you just get one product, get the brilliant eye brightener mini in Stella Champagne Shimmer is my favorite shade. You're going to change your eye game. It also has over 40,000 five star reviews, so don't just take my word for it. Discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics. Luxury beauty that gives back. You can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrive cosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S e M E T-I C S.com glamorous for 20% off your first order. Go celebrate your teen momsy and also get some for yourself. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. So Leisha had been in a band, the Murmurs, and she heard about this audition and was like, I'd sure like to act in something like that. Sounds cool. Like, how could I do that? And she'd done one sort of innuendo lesbian yoplait commercial where they were, like, eating yogurt and she'd done a movie. So she thought maybe I could get an audition. Goes to her music manager and is like, can you find a way so I can please audition for this? Which is so wild because Leisha, when the show was running, was the only out gay woman on the show. And she had to, like, find her way into this casting process. Meanwhile, Kate had been. This is. I want to read this line. Kate said. I was in New York City, hungry for work. I'd fallen into a predictable pattern, shuffling between being in the mix to it's not going forward more times than I could count. I was accustomed to the disappointment by then and told myself this was part of paying my dues. Only four years deep into trying this professionally. I was painful, aware of the rejection, and I said, oh, my God, you got famous. Four years into this.

[Christina Lopez]

I know, I know. After, like, literally putting in 10 years and then finally, like, being looked at and being called, like, an emerging, like, talent, which is something that happens to, I feel like more often than not comedians who go, like, I've been doing this for 10 years. I'm so glad I'm emerging, but I'm.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Finally emerging from the cocoon of hell.

[Christina Lopez]

Truly. Yeah, I did, like, that, like, parallel of, like, Leisha Haley is working in a sunglasses hut and. And Kate's like, in New York being like, I guess it's only been four years. But I did deal with so much rejection. And it's like, okay, girly.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I know. Lisa said, like, a guy walked in who last Time she saw him, she had, like, a hit record of record deal. And now he was like, what are you doing here? And she's, like, shopping for sunglasses. And then someone comes over, and they're like, get to work. And she was like, okay, I need to change my life.

[Christina Lopez]

Yes. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Well, it's also so funny because we find out that Kate is a Nepo cousin to Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Who is a Nepo daughter to Blythe Tanner. And it's interesting because Kate was, like. She said as a child, she was watching a movie and was like, oh, my God, that's my aunt. And they have to explain to her, like, that's Blythe. Like, she's a famous actress. And she said, but that's not what got her into the business. Like, not Gwyneth and not Blythe. Like, just. She found it on her own, but then thankfully had them to, like, help guide her.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And I think, like, I think she was, like, open about it. It might not have, like, shepherded her into this life, but I think, like, because her mom was even a dancer, it opened up like this as a possibility. Some people don't even know it's on the table, but from a young age, she knew it was on the table.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And I think that's so beautifully said, and I thought it was so beautifully addressed in the book of, like, even knowing something is on the table from a very young age is so monumentally helpful. And I think when the Nepo kid thing gets weird is that they're like, wait, I have to try and work hard. Not everything was handed to me, you know, and they feel defensive. But it's also just this idea of, like, man, the privilege of knowing that job existed and you could have it from a young age changes your cells. I don't know if you. You knew that we could do this for a living, but, like, I thought the only options were be Julia Roberts. I was like, surely you can't write, like, how. I just had no. I don't know. I had no frame of reference that, like, someone had even written the movie. And so it took me so long to be like, wait a minute. I can create.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And that there are all these different avenues, and it's probably not gonna look like Julia Roberts, but that doesn't mean that you're failing. And I think for so long, until literally recently, I was like, oh, my God, like, none of this is failing. Like, even working at the Sunglasses Hut, that's not failing. It's because, like, this journey Isn't linear. And being able to be shown that, like, maybe up close, if your family has even a hand in the industry at all, can be really helpful.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And, yeah, that is one of the best parts of the book, too, in the long arc of their careers. But in this moment, they basically both get this audition for Shane, and this is the role for the non femme. The non femme of the show. And so when they go in the casting room, they say all the Jennies are to the left and Shane's are to the right. And they just. Without even asking Kate and Leisha, or they're like, okay, go to the Shane corner. You're clearly the two Shanes. And so then they become best friends, and Kate gets the role. Which is funny because Leisha says, like, can you imagine me as Shane? That makes no sense. I'm like, I can't even believe it.

[Christina Lopez]

Would have been so wild. And it's so wild that. And I already knew this lore that, like, that the network didn't want Kate as Shane and that Eileen had to, like, the show creator had to fight for her with the network. But that makes so much sense because they don't know what women are attracted to, because those guys. Guys are guys, and they're not.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Right.

[Christina Lopez]

Gay women.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, it's so. It's. It's such an indicator of, like, who did you guys think Shane was if you didn't think it was Kate? Like, what were y' all picturing? But they love Alicia so much that they say, we're gonna find another role for you. And that's when they write Alice. And then they call her up and they're like, congratulations, we created a role for you. And she says, let me think about it. I'm screaming at this point with my.

[Christina Lopez]

Band, I'm reading this, like, literally screaming.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Being like, what are we talking about? Also, like, you asked for this audition. Like, what happened? And so she hangs up. She talks to her bandmate Heather, who is also a roommate, who is also a former lover, but is not her current partner and is like, what do you think? And she's like, don't take it. It'll break up the band. Then her girlfriend Robin comes home. Thank you. Robin is like, are you out of your mind? Call them back and say so. Then she calls them back, and she's like, okay, I'll take it. And they were like, what? Like, okay, thanks.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. Literally wild. But so glad that she had that girlfriend at that time.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Thank you, Robin. Shout out to Robin. And the show at this time, this was actually. This is. I feel like this is a real lesson I need to take to myself, which is to say maybe the title you think is perfect Chelsea is bad because the L Word. Y' all are not ready for this. Try and guess in your head. What was the L Word originally titled? Christina, if you're still there, do you have a guess?

[Chelsea Devontes]

No, I don't have a guest at all. I'm surprised. Yeah, this is something I don't know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay. The L Word, an iconic title, phenomenal, was originally titled Earthlings.

[Christina Lopez]

What?

[Catherine McCafferty]

How?

[Christina Lopez]

Oh, my God.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It's. It's so bad and so many dozens of ways.

[Christina Lopez]

It's like, what is that about? What is that show about? Earthlings. What do you mean?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Earthlings? And was it. I'm even trying to guess, like, what was the original idea of, like, hey, like, lesbians are just earthlings, too? Like, I don't know. Anyways, so thank God that was out. And then basically they moved to Vancouver and start shooting this show. And they're in their 20s. They call it gay camp. And the stories of them shooting just sound so. Like, they sound like everything you get into this business for. They sound like high school theater kids stories. Every day we rehearse together, and we're best friends and we have dinners together and, like, all of that.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, that's, like. It's so cute. I loved reading all of that. I was like, oh, this is the dream.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Wait, it is. It is incredible. But then it puts both of them in this position of your sexuality is going to be a topic of conversation. And it's. It was crazy for me because I had never seen the L Word, so I'm. I obviously, like, knew about the L Word, but I'd never seen it. So reading this book, it was, like, breaking my 2025 brain to realize that many or most of the actresses on the show were straight and so that it would be a big deal for an actress playing a lesbian on the L Word to say that she was gay. Like, I. It took me back to 2004 in a way that I was like, please, no. Please don't take me back here. Like, I don't know. What did you think of that whole. It's like, basically, like, Kate doesn't feel comfortable coming out because she knows it'll impact her career, her family. She doesn't know if she's ready to be out. And Leisha was the only out gay woman on the show. And the other women are either all straight. Perhaps one of them is bisexual. Now, but I was reading a lot of blogs, and I just felt like I don't want to be on these blogs trying to figure out, oh, I want to wait.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I want to know what blogs you were on.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Chelsea Autostraddle.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Yeah, that checks out.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. And I felt like I should trust auto straddle, but as I was reading about, like, which one was bisexual and which two had retracted the bisexuality, I was like, I don't feel like I should. I don't like this.

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely. Yeah. I would say you can trust Autostraddle and then also know that we love gossip and sometimes we don't need to gossip about people's sexuality, and that's okay, too.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, I know. I was like, I was trying to think about it in the context of the show of basically, like, how. How much Leesha had to carry in the press, talking about this, and how much pressure was put on Kate as people would be like, oh, but you're not the only gay woman. But, like, Kate wasn't ready to come out and how. It's intense in the book, but it must have just been so much worse than. Even as it reads. What did you think of that whole thematic piece of this?

[Christina Lopez]

I mean, I loved that Leesha really had Kate's back during that, and I think that that probably helped her feel, like, more cushion into coming out and even being on the show in general, being surrounded by people who obviously loved her and having that community. But, yeah, reading it, it was like, I can only imagine, because the way that we deal with even press still is absolutely batshit in the way that we treat women is wild still.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Theme of the podcast. It's the theme of the podcast. We live in a nightmare. Yes, please.

[Christina Lopez]

So we live in a nightmare. And it was even more of a nightmare, like, in 2004, you know?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And especially about sex. I mean, in 2004, I was in such a town, small town, that like. Like, being a lesbian was an insult.

[Christina Lopez]

Oh, absolutely.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And so really just going back to, like, how much have. But also, this show is so successful and so beloved, but then, like, the way they're talking about sexuality is, like, so painful. And I want to read Leisha the moment when she told her mom, her mom's visiting her in New York, and she's waiting until she's literally, like, five minutes out the door to the airport, and her mom says, honey, I'm not going to leave until you tell me what's going on. I love what happens next. Are you pregnant? She asked. No, just. I Answered just crying. Are you in a cult? An excellent question and not totally unreasonable. I shook my head no. My mom ran down a list of everything that could be wrong. Finally, out of guesses, she was quiet. Are you gay? She asked softly. Yeah, I eked out. Oh, honey, she said, visibly relaxing. Come here. I fell into her arms, and she wrapped her arms around me. I love everything about you. You're so beautiful.

[Christina Lopez]

It's so nice. I cried so many times reading this book. But, like, yeah, because that's like, such a. What a dream, you know? And like. And what a dream. Even, like, back then. And it really makes sense then, like, who Leisha became. Having that. Like, having that support and having that.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Support that you can then be supportive to other people and that you can, like, stand strong, cute, because you have your mom saying that. And meanwhile, Kate doesn't get the same experience, really. Sadly. One funny story before we talk about this is that it was another, like, Gwyneth Paltrow cousin story where she auditioned for. For what became Boys Don't Cry. And she said, if you're thinking that Boys Don't Cry led me to some grand epiphany about my own queerness. Well, it didn't. Told you. I bloomed late. I was still loosely dating guys, including one gorgeous model. One night, he was like, you should model. Do you want to come meet my agent? She said, at that point, I had been in New York for only a few months with nothing going on. Why not? He took me to his agency a few days later. I figured I would just have to give them a song and dance. But instead, they took my picture against a pristine blank wall and assigned me a booking agent. It was like getting a flu shot. I said, imagine becoming a model being the equivalent of getting a flu shot. And I know, and you're not. You don't realize that that's how stunning you are. Like, no one I know.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's so wild.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Because they'll die to be models and don't have that experience. And she was like, I'm a model now.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. It was, like, very blase the way then it's just sort of in there. And as somebody who also tried to be a model, I was like, yeah, it's just, like, so not like getting a flu shot. I once had somebody tell me that they thought that I was. They were like, yeah, we think you'll do well. You're really beautiful. Just not from the front. And I said, that's my face.

[Catherine McCafferty]

That's maybe the most important part. Also not that it matters. But you are so stunning. That is so insane. Someone. Just someone was having a real bad day. But. Yeah, but that's what I mean, though. Modeling is when beautiful, perfect women go into model and some crazy person says, lose 1,000 pounds first. That's modeling. It's not like, sure, you got it. Here's a picture. Start work tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, but it is for Kate.

[Christina Lopez]

It is, and that's great. I was like, happy with, like, the ease of her journey because it was clearly, like, so not easy in other ways where it was like, okay, yeah, you get. You get modeling, and then, like, you can figure out your sexuality and how people are going to receive that later.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And Kate has such a beautiful story in the book and something I could say recognize parts of in Friends and other people, which is that she gets a friendship with someone she calls Jay, and they become best, best, best friends. And everyone is always like, well, you both are dating, but it's always platonic, never crosses the line, and they're just really codependent friends. And then later in the book, she identifies Jay as Jenna and how that was sort of what Jay was going through, their process, what they were keeping to themselves. Kate was keeping her own sexuality to themselves. But they could offer, like, so much comfort and help in this friendship, and also in some ways, a crutch, you know, to be able to be together but not face these parts that they weren't ready for. And it was so beautiful, I thought how she wrote about Jay and then names her Jenna and talks about, like, the use of the pronouns then and now, and how Jenna wanted her to call them Jay and call them he, because, like, that is who they were then and this is who they are now, and wanted to, like, celebrate both. But, yeah. What did you think of that whole friendship piece in the book?

[Christina Lopez]

I mean, I loved reading about it, and I was like, oh, well, this is gonna blow up. Because as you could feel it. Yeah. But, yeah, because that's. I mean, we all have that story of, like, that really close, codependent friendship. And then it's like, who maybe even helps usher you into, like, learning more about yourself. And then it's like, this is too much. Like, we have to take a step back. But when Kate said that they did go their separate ways and needed to, like, fully become themselves, I think that probably was a way in for Jay into becoming Jenna and, like, accepting her transness. And it's just interesting, too, because you can be beat over the head by, like, needing to confront your own identity and just not doing it because K, like, still in the book was like. And I still didn't come out. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, you're so right. Listen, I. If you listen to this podcast, you know, I had one of those codependent relationships. And the saddest, saddest part about it is that it made us better to, like, it's. It was like you had to break and lose that codependence in order to form the part of yourself you were hiding from. Which sucks. It sucks. You're like, no, why can't I grow? But, like, still keep my friends. But this was totally that. Where, like, they wouldn't have gone on their path if they had kept that friendship. Okay, so a lot of stuff happens, but two things I want to read. So going back into the show, she talked about how the script supervisor on the L Word was Jamie Babbitt. And I don't know if you recognize that name, but Jamie Babbitt is, like, a big director in Hollywood, so she's directed on, like, TV shows that I've done. She went on to direct but I'm a Cheerleader, which is also a great lesbian film. And I just thought it was so cool to read about how she was a part of this production.

[Christina Lopez]

I know that was, like, such, like, a cute little egg in, like, the Book of being like, oh, man. Because it's like, the whole book talking about the show, I feel like, was a great little foray into, like, Hollywood and how things. It is, like, you have to, like, build up into whatever these people become. Because you're like me. At least when I was, like, growing up and then being like, I'm gonna move to la, it's like. And then it just happens. And, like, yeah, it can just happen if you're Kate, but for the most part, it doesn't. And then you're, like, working on these different shows and doing these side things and then doing blah, blah, blah. And so it was fun to, like, read that name and then be like.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, yeah, I loved the Hollywood stuff in this book. If you are a creative and you feel like dog shit right now, this is a book to pick up.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Because it gives you all the insider tea, but also, like, how they did it. And then, yeah, if you've watched the L Word, there was so much L Word backstory in this. I, like, don't even know where to start. We have to get into some of the, like, shooting scenes.

[Christina Lopez]

But I loved it so much.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Right.

[Christina Lopez]

Having, like, watched and rewatched the L Word. So Many times. It was just, like, so fun to. When they reference specific episodes, I'm like, okay, yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay, so tell me. Okay, I'm gonna tell one story, and then you're gonna tell me your favorite parts of the L Word, Goss. But there's one thing. Cause it's on the page, and I have to make sure I say this, which is that there is one. One paragraph, everyone. About how Lisha approached K. D. Language. K. D. Lang liked that they went on a date, and then they were together for five years. The end.

[Christina Lopez]

I know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

What?

[Christina Lopez]

I know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Listen. So much respect for Katie and that relationship. Short. No, give me eight more paragraphs.

[Christina Lopez]

But there was so much where, like, I was like, okay, so I guess we can't get that juicy Goss or even, like, Robyn's backstory, because we really don't get into that either.

[Catherine McCafferty]

No.

[Christina Lopez]

And some of the. These names. Some of these, like, named lesbians in the book.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Noted lesbians.

[Christina Lopez]

Noted lesbians. Well, some of their name. Some of their friends. They'll just, like, name their friends. And I'll be like, wait a second. I know somebody who is dating that person now. Do you know what I mean? And so that's sort of fun, too. So if you're.

[Catherine McCafferty]

That's so fun.

[Christina Lopez]

If you're gay and live in Los Angeles, you will absolutely read about somebody who slept with somebody that you know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay, that's a hot. That's a hot sell for this book. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Okay. Tell me some of your favorite behind the scenes L Word stories in this book.

[Christina Lopez]

I really liked how they talked about Mia because Jenny is such a hated, like, character.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yes. Mia Kershner is the actress who plays Jenny, and Jenny is the one who gets murdered. Right.

[Christina Lopez]

And that was batshit. And I do like that they cover that. That is batshit. And then, like, how did that.

[Catherine McCafferty]

How did the. They said the final season turned into Unsolved Mysteries. It was like the show just changed into, like, a murder mystery about Jenny.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, I didn't. I mean, it felt like they just did that because Eileen Shaken was going into doing the Farm, which was the prison show. So it felt like maybe that was why. That was the motivation behind having it be, like, a murder thing. I don't know. I hate it.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Interesting. Like, maybe if she was thinking ahead, so just to tell everyone what the Farm is. So this actually blew my mind. So Eileen, wildly ahead of her time, is told that this will be the final Season of the L Word. And they got. I think it was only six episodes, which is a fucking crime. A crime. And immediately she pitched a spin off show called the Farm about an all women's prison. Sound familiar, everybody? We could have had the Orange Orange is the New Black ten years before Orange is the New Black. But she needed an actress from the L Word to star in the series where they would basically be a fish out of water. And she was like, you can tell. She's like going to all of them. And they're like, no until she makes it to Leisha. And even Kate says no. And Lisa's like, all right, sure. And then she was like, how the. Is Alice gonna be the lead character of this prison show? But yeah, she was like, ahead of her time in pitching that. And also she had the rights to Handmaids too.

[Christina Lopez]

I loved that. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. So I loved it. And it was so incredible, but. But also so, so painful because I feel like the idea that, like, the. Those properties and ideas existed and were not given a chance for so long, and then the moment they got a chance, they become huge. Is just feels like Hollywood deja vu. Like, just happens over and over. Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

And it's like. And actually nobody will ever learn their lesson because isn't enough diversity at the top. So it's like, you know, we're just screaming into a void. But it is, like, so annoying to be like, cool, cool, cool. And. But it really highlights. And I thought that it was so beautiful and even, like, I feel like, so emotional about it now where I'm like, but in 2004, this was a TV show and it like, fucking sucks that, like, it's 2025 and that's still what I go back to. To like rewatch.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I know it is. And especially. Especially for queer women and queer people and queer culture. It's also crazy to think that, like, people are still going back to Sex in the City, you know, which is like a mostly heterosexual show. And that was also 2004. So it's also this weird. Almost feels like across the board, no matter who you are, if you are feminine in any way, you don't get dating and love shows anymore.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Like you're. Or basically, you don't get to be the stars. You don't get to be the ensembles for like 20 years. Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

You don't get to be like the. The core is just women.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Yeah. It's really wild. Okay, so go back to. You're talking about how you loved the parts about Mia because Jenny is Such a hated character. Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

So Jenny's like, oh. And I don't know if I marked it down, but I, like, dog eared some. And then I just, like, was reading too fast to, like, take notes. I started taking notes and then I forgot. I literally forgot that I was taking notes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

You were entranced in the book.

[Christina Lopez]

Mm. I wrote OKT because Mia was such a part of their friendship. Like, Leesha moves in with Mia while they're filming, and I thought that was really, really cute. And Kate ends up living by herself and so does Erin.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yes. Aaron Daniels, who played Dana on the show. Keep going.

[Christina Lopez]

And it says Mia wanted to cover the kitchen walls in plywood before cooler heads prevailed. I'm almost certain that we didn't get our deposit back at the end of our lease. I just love, like, imagining them just, like, decorating and being, like, young and friends and that she was a part of that group because Jenny the character is so hated in everybody who, like, watched the L Word. But if you go back then Kate even talks about it in the book that she'll fight till the day she dies, that Jenny was the most important character and that we just didn't have the language around mental illness or mental health because she does have so many things that are just thrown into the storylines where you go, like, okay, so this person, like, had a fucked up childhood.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And what is more 2004 than that, than being like, this bitch is crazy. And then later you're like, oh, I think she needed help. Yeah, I think we all ignored her.

[Christina Lopez]

I think we actually all ignored her and made her the worst. But she does become, like this crazy super villain, like, this wild super villain towards the end, which makes absolutely no sense. They just, like, really lean into, like, this weird character that she becomes. But Jenny rewatching it, I like, went after reading the book, I went back and I watched, like, some of the episodes that they reference. And I really like Jenny. Like, there's nothing like she's finding her. Like, she's finding her queerness. She's finding herself as an artist. And at the end of the day, the show is, like, very soap opera y. And so, like. So, like, yeah, there's some wild things that happen.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, I love that perspective on it. And. Yeah. And then it's so wild that Jenny ends up getting murdered after having, like, that whole thing on there, that whole storyline. Okay. I took notes on something that was my favorite behind the scenes, which is about Pam Grier. She said Pam, who played Kit, is known to be a badass on Camera. But was one of the kindest people I'd ever met. This icon of the 70s lived on a horse ranch in Colorado because, as she said, quote, girl, I left Hollywood years ago. I fly in, do my thing, I leave. That's how I survived this whole time. And then later, when they're like, all in the van, they said she would pop out with advice and be like, everyone needs to start a pension right now, immediately. And that was my favorite for many reasons, but one of them is because I got to work with Pam Grier on a TV show. It feels like recently, but I guess now it was, like, six years ago, and it was such a dream to work with her. But she still lives on a horse ranch. She still flies in to do her thing. And one of my favorite. There's so many stories I have that I, like, love her so much. She gave me a potholder that says bitch on it. Like, and it said. And other things that say, like, bitches get things done. And then one night on set, she was like, never get gas at night. And I was like, what? She was like, never fill your gas tank past sunset, ever. Ever. And I was like, okay. Then she told me two of the most brutal stories of things that had happened to friends of hers getting gas. And I was like, okay, okay, I won't. And she was like, promise me. And I was like, okay, I won't. And that night, we shot really far away. I was driving home on E, and I. It was. I mean, I had gotten out of set at, like, one in the morning, and I was like, okay, I guess we're just gonna see if we can make it home. And I still look back, and I'm like, I don't know what Pam saved me from, but, like, Pam telling me a story on a day I was gonna run out of gas at 1 in the morning. Driving home from, like, Santa Clarita.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Her talking about Pam here just feels like exactly who she still is.

[Christina Lopez]

I love that. Wait, what show was it?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Bless this mess.

[Christina Lopez]

Oh, amazing. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. She played the sheriff, and. Yeah. She's just. Yeah, it was. It was so cool reading about her, like, in 2004, reading about her and.

[Christina Lopez]

Reading about, like, Jennifer Beals also.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

And how she was running triathlons. Like, because she was really getting into her character. As BET when they were shooting, they were doing, like, this biking episode In Memoriam to Dana. And, like, just reading all of that was so special. And reading their reactions to Dana being killed off also, I love. Because they're so, like, On. They're so, like, plugged into the fans, too, because, like, the fans were like, I'm sorry, what?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's so. So it must have been so insane watching that at the time. And also.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, it was. It was devastating.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

How did you feel, Christina, when that happened?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Because you thought you. You were like, they're not gonna kill. They're not gonna kill her. Like, this is a gay show. Like, we don't. We survive in these shows.

[Catherine McCafferty]

We don't get killed off.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's the straight shows we get killed off on. And it was. It was brute. It was brutal.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It was.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Especially since, like, breast cancer really hits close to home for me because I. Both of my aunts are breast cancer survivors. And so, like, you kind of just, like, are hoping that you. And it just, like, she didn't. She didn't pull through, and it was brutal.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And you were watching, like, at the time, like, when the episodes were dropping.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, I was watching when the episodes dropped. Every week. There used to be a website called After Ellen.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I remember that site.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's become turfy, and they used to do recaps, and I would read the recaps the next day or whenever they went up. But I would watch that show on low volume so my parents wouldn't hear what I was watching. And, yeah, it. So yeah, I remember everything that. When it aired, as it aired for that show.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Wow. I remember, like, after Ellen, doing, like, features on, like, some of my comedian friends. That's what I thought the site was.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. No, they. It used to be, like, a lot of what Autostraddle does now, but then it, like, would exchange corporate hands and stuff like that a couple times, and it got weird.

[Catherine McCafferty]

That is so sad. Okay. Like a hot, sexy soap opera. But then, like, every lesbian is dying. Like, it's. That's crazy.

[Christina Lopez]

No, I needed that.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Then this is. This is also what was wild. In addition to our core group, there were so many incredible guest stars on the first season. Rosanna Arquette, Kelly Lynch, Holland Taylor, Jane lynch, and Tammy Lynn Michaels, who was dating Melissa Etheridge. So the two of them, Aaron, Kate, and I, spent a whole weekend playing Never have I Ever, which is bananas. But also, there's a tiny little thread. It's small. It's like three memoirs where Melissa Etheridge and, like, four other lesbians are in a hot tub playing games. Feels like that was just, like, maybe her go to 2000s.

[Christina Lopez]

I love that. No. Reading about the guest stars made me want to, like, go back and be like, oh, wait, Rosanna Arquette. Being in the first season, I was like, that's right. And I truly yesterday rewatched like a couple of those episodes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, my God, I love that. Is she good? Yes.

[Christina Lopez]

And just. This is 2004 people. And it's like, so cool that they got these big names. It's not only cool, but it speaks to the fact that women want to play these roles. Like, they want this to be in the culture. And like, where is it? It's 2025.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Which also speaks to a stat that, like, I'm almost like, I didn't write down the page number. I'm like, I'll.

[Christina Lopez]

Oh.

[Catherine McCafferty]

If it stays in the episode, it's fully true. They were not invited to the Emmys. They were not treated like friends. They were not treated like Sex in the City. Such a massive, massive level of devotion and an audience. How. How when that show was ending, were they not like, well, better slot our next lesbian show in because we like money instead. They were like, never again.

[Christina Lopez]

Bye. Right. And they made that too. Stupid fucking medical show. After er, like, after ER ended, everybody was like, and we better do a bunch of medical shows. Everybody's stupid. I hate.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, yeah, there's a million medical shows since. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was so crushing. And Kate wrote in the book, like, I'd often have to remind myself that I wasn't making it up, that millions of people used to watch us, that executives used to whisper, that's my favorite show, that. But. But it was still kept as like this hush hush item and not given it's due in the press. Yeah, just wild. And right around this time, towards the end, Liz Feldman, who created Dead to Me and the Deed, but is just like a homie from back in the day, is talking to Kate and she said she had a dream. And in the dream, she was telling Kate, don't come out, just be out. And that Kate takes that as like, that's how I'm gonna live my life. Like, I don't have to do a big to do. I'm just gonna be who I am. Which. That part made me cry because there's of anything that is, like, deeply important to you, but, like, shamed in public, that you feel you have to make a monologue about in order to exist. That also there's the option of just existing is also the option. And that you don't have to do the big speech or something.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. I just. So much of this book, I'm like, this is so important. Everyone Needs to read this.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Oh, my God. And I think people are gonna go wild for this book. Like we said, the book is out today, and I. There's one darker thing I want to bring up, though, which is that everyone knew, and I'm sure Kate knew how it would affect her career. And Kate goes on to work on a medical show. Oh, my God. What was the name of it?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I'll look it up. Just give me a second.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay, thank you. Where they very clearly are trying to make her look more, quote, straight and giving her, like, longer hair and stuff, but goes on to, like, have that role in some other roles. And.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Is it Three Rivers?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, that sounds right. Three Rivers sounds right.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. They don't really, like. She maybe says the name once. She doesn't really name it, I think.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Because she hated it.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

That show. Hated how they treated her. But Kate had more of a career after this than Leisha, and I am. I just couldn't. Sex and City. I couldn't help but wonder if being out and queer was a piece of how their lives went.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, I think 100%. Lisha formed, like, another band and went into music stuff, but I think. Who was it? Was it Lisha who gets, like, dropped by her agent?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Lisha? Yeah, like, two years after the show?

[Christina Lopez]

Which is so. It's.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It's just so wild, but it's so demeaning and shitty.

[Christina Lopez]

It's very. Yeah, it's. It's super shitty.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Star on a hit show.

[Christina Lopez]

When I first came to la, everything was a mess, and I had, like, a manager who was, like. I. I truly think was just doing crime, but we, like, met at a coffee shop, and then, like, he kidnapped me for a day. It was so wild.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Wait, hold on. Was his name Fred?

[Christina Lopez]

No, it wasn't.

[Chelsea Devontes]

All right.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Because I do know a friend who might have done some stuff like that.

[Christina Lopez]

Okay.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay.

[Christina Lopez]

So, yeah, so if you're out there listening, shocking. There's multiple men like that.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Whoa.

[Christina Lopez]

So I had a string of, like, sort of dudes like that, and then I made a web series. And then I was sending out, like, so many emails every single day trying to get a manager. And then I landed this guy who had clients that were reputable. We met. He was, like, obsessed with me, but I was newly out. I was, like, newly out in my first relationship already, because I came out and a week later got into a relationship. And so when he asked me about, like, what my favorite movie was, I said that it was Disobedience, which is a gay movie.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And, yeah, Christina. I love that laugh.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's with Rachel Weiss, who's like, yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

Rachel weisz and Rachel McAdams. And it's literally. It's my. It's my background on my phone screen right now.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I have to know what.

[Catherine McCafferty]

What scene you're talking about.

[Christina Lopez]

It's like them, like, about to kiss.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, right. Yes. The tension.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And so anyway, so I mentioned that movie, and then he goes, oh, are you gay? And I was like, yes. And he was like, okay, well, just don't cut your hair, like. And I went, oh, okay. What? You know, like, huh?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Like, don't quote. Like, look gay.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And then there was, like, a slew of advice that I got, which was basically just don't be gay yet, because you're, like, this young thing that I wanna market as, like, the young ingenue.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Sexy girl, which is so crazy that, like, for some reason, those two things couldn't exist together. Like, what is wrong with you?

[Christina Lopez]

Screaming, that man's now dead, unfortunately.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I mean. Okay, I'm not gonna.

[Christina Lopez]

I know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Listen, it doesn't sound great.

[Christina Lopez]

I know.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Sorry for him, but that doesn't sound like he was a good guy. I mean, he had.

[Christina Lopez]

But that was, like, Hollywood, even, like. And this is, like, way after the L Word even comes out, and Hollywood was still like, just don't be gay. And now, like, literally my whole career, like, I only got to quit my day job because I'm gay.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And. And because you owned who you are and made art about it.

[Christina Lopez]

Right.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Which is a really hard journey and process and took me a long time, too. Like, I was a comedian for many years before I owned who I actually was. And, like, would talk about it because you're just, like, trying to fit these molds of success. And. Yeah, that's so hard for you to, like, newly out. But then to get that advice. I mean.

[Christina Lopez]

But going back to Leisha is like, that is what? Like, yes, she had this hit show, but it was, like, branded as a lesbian show now. Were only lesbians watching it? No, like, there were so many people watching it, and it helped so many queer people, and people who weren't queer watched it. Like, it was watched.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, they just had such a huge audience, and they just said, oh, but because it's a queer show, that audience doesn't count, you know?

[Chelsea Devontes]

There was also a trans character named Max on the show back then, too, played by Danielle C. And their character's transition was part of the storyline for a few seasons. And it was sort of representation back then, albeit with very mixed execution. And had a lot of criticism. Rightfully so.

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely. And they addressed that. That it was like definitely carried out like incorrectly. Like talked about in a way that was like, just like, whoa, boy.

[Chelsea Devontes]

They wrote a lot of the characters to be transphobic as well. They were like very transphobic moments amongst.

[Christina Lopez]

The characters as well.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And so like. But it was still. This is the thing that you kind of struggle with where it's like not always perfect, but still groundbreaking.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. Because it was still talked about and like, that wasn't being like knowing something's an option is important. And Max, like actually does have like he is successful. Do you know what I mean? Like, they don't make him unsuccessful.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, yeah. He gets some redemption also both in portrayal and what happens with his character in the reboot series.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And I'm not defending this. Cause I actually haven't seen it, but I did read in the book she said. I feel a lot of shame about how that was handled, but there is something really weird too happening now where the idea that everything has to go perfectly and be upheld perfectly is what makes art good. And I feel like people are forgetting. This is gonna be a weird example, but. Did you watch Game of Thrones?

[Christina Lopez]

Yes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay, so I was thinking of it because they also were given a six episode finale season. Right. And so much story. And the way they tried to set up the love story between Khaleesi and Jon Snow. And they were like, oh, we have to show that they're in love. And they had like a scene of like they were like riding dragons and laughing and they were like rolling in a hill. And like, that's how we were supposed to be like, oh, we love them and be invested so that when it turns we're upset and it's like, that shit didn't work. Doesn't work. No one wants to see that. But like, if you think back to like the biggest fight characters have on tv or like when Samantha and Sexy City does something so shitty that like, those are the moments that you like, love someone or learn something even if they're not doing the right thing. Even if you'd never do it too, even if the joke is weird, I feel like that is part of the tension of why they. Why they don't bring shows like this back or why the reboot didn't go the way it should have. Because instead of writing real people, they then wrote a lot of false.

[Christina Lopez]

It was all cliche. It was like, it was all cliche. And it's like, yeah, some things in life are cliche, but, like. But most people are real people and they're fallible. And, like, we like to see that. And, like, no, every single main character should not have been transphobic. But no, if they were afraid to, then. If they were afraid to write Max to begin with, then we wouldn't have had Max. So, like.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. And also, a lot of people in 2004 were transphobic.

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And when you see that on screen and you go, ick, I hate that. That's like.

[Christina Lopez]

Then you also learn about yourself. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And so it's like, yeah, it's interesting, that dynamic. But then let's get to the reboot. So one of my favorite parts of this book is that Lisha is, like, makes all these beautiful life paths for herself. She has. Aha. Her. There's a lot of partners and romance in the book that we haven't touched on, but she is now with her bandmate Carmen, who she started. Aha. Her with, and they're together for this part of it. And she's, like, rebuilding and flipping houses and, like, on the top of a roof, like, hammering a nail in as she gets the call of, like, we're gonna reboot the L Word. And Kate, meanwhile, has, like, you know, has continued to act and go on, but they had really been pushing for the L Word reboot over and over and over again. And after three years, Eileen, who is the creator of the original L Word, calls them and says, okay, it's happening. And she's like, and I want you to be eps. You're such a core part of this. And then it turns into not a reboot of the L Word, but of a new queer show that's somewhat built off of the L Word, but has basically, like, 18 characters.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, it was so cool.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And they couldn't service the OG ones or really the new ones.

[Christina Lopez]

No, it was so, like, mishandled. And I love that they talk about how it was mishandled, because it's just like, there were way too many characters. You didn't care about any of them. All you wanted to see were, like, how did Shane end up? And how did, like, I loved the Alice storyline, and I do like that Lisha, like, got to talk about her, like, the positive takeaways of the reboot and that she got to, like, direct an episode as well. And that was, like, life affirming for her and, like, really cool. But, like, I'm. Everyone was so mad when that came out.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. I mean, and they didn't have to.

[Christina Lopez]

Watch the writers didn't have to watch the original L Word. Are you kidding me?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. I loved that they told the stories of the hearing the writers who were coming in to pitch on doing the show. One of them was a writer's assistant on the original L Word and had grown up and could, like, pitch on the show now. Another one was, like, someone who was devoted to it. And then there was this third one who was like, I hated the show. I hated y' all. I hate the L Word. And they're like, well, clearly, it won't be that writer. I couldn't tell, but it sounds like that was the writer who was hired for the reboot.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. It seems like they just didn't want to, like, officially call it out. It was sort of, like, told in the book as, like, Eileen, like, calls them and is like, it's not who you think or who you want it.

[Catherine McCafferty]

To be and that, like, they don't have to watch the original L Word. And they're. They're just going. And it is really heartbreaking because it came out in a year. Like, right now, like, Trump would be like, I'm gonna shoot that show with my pistol. Right. But, like, it came out in a year where, like, that was being embraced and supported, and it's a really big bummer that it didn't work. Well, it's also so interesting, too, though, of, like, I'm sorry if it's not interesting for other people, but, like, in my writer brain, I'm, like, fascinated with, like, it was really flawed and problematic, but the L Word being such a better watch than the reboot, which was trying to do everything correctly. Right. But then not being a good watch. And I think that dance between the two and how people. It's. People at the top don't understand that dance and therefore don't let it happen.

[Christina Lopez]

No. And they're like, no, we like the one that does way too much. And it's like, no, you don't.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. No, no. Yeah.

[Christina Lopez]

And no, we don't, like, don't do. Why are you doing all of that? Literally, I was watching that with my ex fiance, and we were like, we are good gay people. We will watch this show. We are putting in the work every single episode. We were like, why are they doing this to us?

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. I mean, listen, it is there. The opportunity is so ripe for a show like that to come now, Christina.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think there's also something to, like, being so starved for representation that you'll watch something that's not even that Good.

[Catherine McCafferty]

You mean it just like that?

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yes. 100. 100%. And also, this brings me to the point where, like, the pilot had been written for a year, and then finally the president read it and was like, I want to fast track this. I want to get this up immediately. And then suddenly, after having a year to sit there and make deals and talk about this, they had, like, two days to close their deals, and they ended up accepting way less than they were worth because they felt like it's that thing of, like, oh, well, there's only one show. There's only this one chance. We've never been given chances. Therefore, I need to accept less money than I'm worth, otherwise there will not be a second queer show on air. And how they accepted these horrible deals, being pressured into this time constraint of, like, if you don't cave, it won't happen.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Which I can't tell you how many times I have been in that position, next to friends in that position talking like, it's just constant, like, oh, well, this might not happen unless you cave in the next two seconds, which everyone's stupid.

[Christina Lopez]

I hate them.

[Catherine McCafferty]

You know what? Well said. Well, this is how the book ends, where they were basically like, well, that fucking sucked. And then 2020 happens, and they're like, hey, you two should have a podcast. Basically, they've helped each other move and pull off stunts and heists, and they used to scooter down to, like, Beverly Hills and go shopping, and they'd call it the Shoppies. They'd get on their scooters and go shopping. I was like, this is amazing. They've had this, like, huge friendship.

[Christina Lopez]

And the person who, like, says that they should have a podcast is Helena. Who? The actress who played Helena. So I love that. It's, like, still a part of the L Word where she's like, you two should have a podcast.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And they're called Pants because. Was it Mia?

[Christina Lopez]

I think. Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Mia was like, you two are like, pants. Like, you can't have one leg without the other. And so that's also, like, tied to the L Word. And, like, this time they had together in Vancouver. Yeah. And then by making their own work, they are wildly successful and have a beloved podcast and get to write this book because the audience is there.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And so they just did it on their own.

[Christina Lopez]

And it's so frustrating, though, that like, that. So they have to do it on their own and they have to go through, like, doing a podcast. And, like, obviously I'm just, like, talking to somebody who Also probably feels the exact same way. But it's like, oh, yeah, you have.

[Catherine McCafferty]

To build your own seat at the table. You have to build the table, and you have to build the house the table is in. Then you have to go the walkway to the house from your house. So, like, it's like, oh, I can't believe that. And yet, like, my happiest moments are like, I can't believe I get to do a podcast where I get to, like, talk about books and, like, make it with Christina. It's just like, oh. So it's also, like, this form of being lucky. And that is what I also took from this book. Like, when Leisha's, like, not getting jobs, she's like, I'm gonna, like, make something with my hands. And, like, I'm gonna build these houses. I'm gonna flip houses. And Kate's like, I'm gonna find roles that I love. And she gets to work with Liz Feldman. And that, like, if Hollywood is not gonna allow you the path that has been sold or it doesn't exist anymore or because you're being othered because of your queerness, because of whatever, that, like, you still have so many other paths to happiness. Because this book is a big happy ending.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, it really is. Of this.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. And including that Kate meets her wife at the very end after many failed partners. And Leisha, this is my only. I only had one tiny writing gripe with the book, which is. I was like, like, she talks about dating this woman, Kim, and at the very end, it's like, surprise, Kim's back. And, like, we're married. And that, like, they both have pictures with their wives at the back of the book. And I was like, why didn't you set Kim up.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

In the beginning. So that when you realize Kim is back, it reads like a romance novel.

[Christina Lopez]

Yes. And they do bump into her in, like, an elevator and are told, like, not to speak to her or whatever. And I really wish that they had more moments like that or, like. Or just spent a little bit more time in that elevator thing. And Leisha, like, clearly didn't want us to talk to Kim because it was her first heartbreak or just give us something a tiny bit more meat.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Or it's just like. Cause Kim did this horrible thing. And then later, in the end, it's like, actually, Leesha had done this horrible thing, and now they could come together and be so happy. Yeah. Because they're together. There's so many love stories, too, that we didn't get to in this episode, but including One where, like, Kate's in such a bad relationship that, like, seven lesbians show up with their own U Hauls and are like, we're moving you out today. Like, bye.

[Christina Lopez]

I loved that. And that's why I'm like, I want each individual memoir because, like, I was so into the Hollywood stuff that I knew that they couldn't include all the relationship stuff. But the relationship stuff is also so important because I'm like, it's its own.

[Catherine McCafferty]

L word, memoir form.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. And that shit does happen. And like, when I was talking to my straight friends about how I'm dating again and how this is happening and this is happening, they're literally like, this is a TV show. And I'm like, yeah, it was a TV show, okay? It was called the L Word and we haven't had it since.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Wait, give us one little story because this will also be a little teaser for your dating show on Patreon. But, like, what is one story you shared with a friend where they were like, this should be a TV show.

[Christina Lopez]

So I do stand up, right? And then I have this solo show and I'm like, newly on the dating market. I just like this terrible on again, off again breakup. The breakup was terrible. Like, there were good parts of the relationship and bad parts of the relationship that we both contributed to, but it was truly chaos the whole time. And so now I'm back in, like the dating field. I'm performing my show. I get passed a note from what looks like a lesbian. And she goes, read that later. And it was a note that I still have that was like asking me out with her phone number. And I was like, I should say yes. I should say yes to, like, everything. Now. My ex, when we went through our breakup, did like the typical dye your hair, like, get a new hair thing. I show up to this date. This woman, as I'm walking in, has texted me, oh, I might not look like myself because I recently bleached my hair. They have the exact same hair now, so from behind they look the exact same. And I felt like it was the universe being like, do not date this woman.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, my God.

[Christina Lopez]

It was just like. That was like, that's not even the most salacious thing, you know? Because then during that date, like, she was just like, very not my vibe. But at one point she was like, you just don't look like a lesbian. And I. And like, so then. And then it's like a debate. And so we had like a six hour date. And I'm telling you, we're fighting.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Over what? Looking like a lesbian?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, like that and other stuff. And then we ended up talking about other things that like, she actually, like, was a very interesting person, but obviously we didn't click. But it's a six hour date, which is like a standard date. And I'm telling this to a straight person and they go, what are you talking about? That's not a stand. You. It must have been a really good date. And I'm like, well, no. What do you mean? I. Right.

[Catherine McCafferty]

It was short.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. Six hours is short, literally. Because then. Then right after that, because I'm in my dating phase, right after that, I go on another date. It's eight hours long. We never touch, not even once.

[Catherine McCafferty]

What? Okay, wait. I have something to pose to you and Christina. So on this podcast before, I was making a joke about someone having three hour long sex. And I was like, I could like, like, no, like, I.

[Christina Lopez]

A lesbian.

[Catherine McCafferty]

I love sex. But I like a. I like a. I don't want three hours. At this age in my life, I don't want three hours. And someone in the comments was like, chelsea, that is the minimum for lesbian sex.

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely.

[Catherine McCafferty]

So is that true?

[Christina Lopez]

I will say that when I started having sex again and have been like, out and about, we would look at the time and it would be three hours. And then I've since, like, gotten a little bit better where it's like, I'll look at the time and I'll be like, okay, a short session. And that's about like 90 minutes.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Wow. Christina, you know I don't want to.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Paint anything with a broad brush.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yep.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But in general, I would say the numbers that Katherine gave you are very accurate.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Also I. Yeah, I also don't want to paint with a broad brush. But I've gotten many comments being like, lol, bitch. Like, my sex, like, begins on hour four. And I said, what? Like, you need time? Wow. You would really need a babysitter if you had kids then. And like, I mean, this is really. We've really got to clear the day.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But I know, I. But like I said when we had that Donna Summer episode, we had other people in the comments when I made that comment that, like, the track Love to Love youe baby is 17 minutes long, the executive said to make it that long or somebody, the producer, whatever, made that long to be like a good sex session.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Like.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I said, lol, that's some straight people shit. And in the episode Chelsea mentioned that I said that. And so there were some queer people who were like, okay, not all of us are like going there for like, hours.

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely. I've had like a 30 minute quickie before. I've absolutely done that. And that's like satisfying and fun.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Right.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But like, when you're like, okay, we're having sex tonight and you're like, being intentional. Yes. Hours. Hours.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. You have a lot also. You can just like, keep. There's no end. So like with. There's no end when you're having sex with a man, I feel like, or with somebody who has a penis, they ejaculate and then that's like, that's like. And this is the end. Right. Because, like, that's what we're taught is like. And the end. And they need downtime. Just like anatomically, I think. But yeah, there's like more of like a rolling.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Like a lot of the way women orgasm is more of like it. Incline, incline, incline. And then you climax and it just like takes you to. Takes you to higher levels.

[Christina Lopez]

Right. And then you're there and you're like, well, why would I stop now?

[Chelsea Devontes]

You stop when you're dehydrated.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah. You stop when you're hungry, when you need a little snack.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, usually like, so, you know, when you go over. Go over a date's house, you carry like a little backpack, or at least I do.

[Catherine McCafferty]

A backpack?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, backpack with a strap.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yes, your strap, your dildo, your. Different tools.

[Christina Lopez]

Your tools.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Your tool belt. Some.

[Catherine McCafferty]

You always have like a vitamin water in there. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You bring like, water bottles and some like, snacks.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So that you don't have to leave, like, the bed is your island. You don't have to leave the island. You're just kind of just there.

[Christina Lopez]

Correct.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Maybe like a towel.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay. Yeah, sure. This is great to know. It's interesting because I. I'm like a.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Change of clothes because, you know, again, hours and hours and hours, you're gonna be there overnight probably, or a couple days. Probably like a long weekend.

[Catherine McCafferty]

A couple days?

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah, it should be a couple days.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And I think here's the thing. Like, this is like so hot and so beautiful, but is also like, this is a lifestyle. This is a lifestyle.

[Christina Lopez]

And it is. It's being gay.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And I think most people would argue that straight people have the bad lifestyle and this is the good lifestyle.

[Chelsea Devontes]

But listen, like, queer women tend to have higher rates of divorce. There's also, like, domestic violence exists in all relationships.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Christina's like, listen, I know we're talking about hot sex. We got to bring it down.

[Christina Lopez]

And I will say that it depends on, like, how long you've been together. But. But yeah, like, especially, like, newly having. Having sex with a new person. I have been like, oh, gotta clear the day.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think it's just different. Different intention. And again, we're not painting with a broad brush. This is not the, like, every queer person's experience.

[Christina Lopez]

No, absolutely not. Also, like, sometimes you do meet somebody in a bathroom, and that's cool, too.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Okay, Katherine, let's do the book Dull Test. Three questions. We're both going to answer both of them. First question. Were the authors vulnerable in the sharing of their truth?

[Christina Lopez]

I think yes, absolutely. I got more of a sense of Leisha emotionally than Kate, but I thought that they were vulnerable in their friendship.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Oh, yeah, I think. I think that was really beautifully said. I totally agree with that. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Christina Lopez]

Absolutely, yeah. Cried, laughed, loved it.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah, I absolutely loved it. Raced through it. It was fantastic. Final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Christina Lopez]

Yes, it really did. It made me want to rewatch the L Word. It made me want to write another L Word. So I'm just going to start doing that. But, yeah, it made just being queer more full for me.

[Catherine McCafferty]

So you absolutely must write that. And you already have your own series, and, like, your platform's huge, so, like, this is going to be perfect. I love that I'm breaking the news on my podcast. I'll be able to look back at this moment. Yeah, I. It definitely elevated my life in a way I can't particularly articulate yet because I didn't get to experience this live in 2004 and, like, knowing how backwards the world was, but that the L word was over here, like, existing and being and had all these, like, the crew members were gay women, the directors were queer people, like, right next to Perez Hilton drawing. Come on, ladies. Do you know what I mean? Like, this was here. This corner existed. And it makes me feel elevated in that, like, we can create these corners again right now, even though things feel terrible. But it also makes me sad in the sense of, like, all dating love shows have really not gotten a new moment. Ensemble dating shows. And it makes me, like, sad for us. And I was even listening to another podcast with a Gen Zer being like, there's no Gen Z dating show that we can even, like, look to and see. And every time they try, it's wrong. It's just, like. It's sad to me that, like, Hollywood hasn't cracked. Cracked this piece.

[Christina Lopez]

Yeah.

[Catherine McCafferty]

And that they weren't able to crack.

[Christina Lopez]

The reboot Yeah, I agree.

[Catherine McCafferty]

Yeah. Okay. Tell everyone where they can find you and follow you.

[Christina Lopez]

Okay. You can find me on Patreon at Pretty Gay on Patreon and then online at Catherine underscore McCaff, which I know I should look into getting that changed, but follow me there. And I have a live show in Los Angeles at Dynasty typewriter June 22, and it's gonna be a lot of fun, and it's gonna be incredibly gay. Everyone's gonna be gay.

[Catherine McCafferty]

So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for being the guest. And, Christina, thank you for being here, too. This was the best.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Thank you, Chelsea.

[Catherine McCafferty]

A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.