Kendra Wilkinson's Memoir Sliding Into Home (with Jo Feldman and Caro Claire Burke)

Summary

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Glamorous Trash: Kendra Wilkinson's Memoir "Sliding Into Home"

Host: Jo Feldman (guest host for Chelsea Devantez)
Guests: Caro Claire Burke
Date: September 30, 2025
Memoir Discussed: Sliding Into Home by Kendra Wilkinson

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Episode Overview

Jo Feldman and Caro Claire Burke dive into Kendra Wilkinson’s 2010 memoir "Sliding Into Home," chronicling her rise from a tumultuous childhood in San Diego to mansion fame as one of Hugh Hefner’s girlfriends on "The Girls Next Door." The episode book-clubs the memoir with humor, empathy, and critical reflection, analyzing celebrity, agency, and the cultural climate of the 2000s.

Content Warning: This discussion covers substance abuse, eating disorders, self-harm, harassment, and suicide (00:50).

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Kendra Wilkinson?

• Jo picks Caro partly because of generational ties to "The Girls Next Door" and the shared millennial experience (03:38).
• “It's how hot you are. I saw them titties on the Internet and thought, this girl is going to have something to say.” – Jo (03:38)
• Both hosts admit to hiding the book from prying eyes, referencing its “covid” (cover), and joke about needing to mask the content from their children (04:20).

2. Initial Impressions of the Memoir

• Caro is surprised at the lack of a classical narrative arc: “I felt like I was just kind of, like, edging for 10 hours and then it was over.” (05:08)
• Despite ghostwriting, Kendra’s voice comes through. Multisyllabic words are attributed to the ghostwriter, John Warrick (05:41).
• Caro reveals surprising insider info: she was once a ghostwriter for Snooki’s lifestyle blog (06:24).

3. Kendra’s Childhood: Foundations of Chaos

• Early years marked by instability as Kendra’s parents separate, using her (age ~5) as a pawn in their disputes (12:00–13:42):

  “I left it up to the gods to tilt the earth in a way that made me fall in one direction. It was no longer up to me. No one could be upset.” – Kendra (13:25)

• Caro observes how Kendra’s casual tone foreshadows the lack of “therapy speak” common in younger memoirists (14:02).
• Kendra’s longing for safety and pattern of transactional male relationships begins early (17:14).

4. Adolescence: Substances & Survival

• Kendra’s adolescence featured drugs (starting at 12), crime, self-harm, and instability:
  • Underage drinking and substance abuse (18:18).
  • “Doesn't it feel like the movie Thirteen?” (18:51)
• Throughout, Kendra exhibits “yes, and…” improv-style consent: she isn’t peer pressured but acts on opportunities (20:47).
• Minimal and clinical descriptions of sex suggest a lack of embodied agency or ghostwriter restrictions (21:16, 22:30).
• Suicide attempt, inadequate intervention (“I had to write a letter promising she wouldn't attempt suicide again.” – Jo, 32:47)
• A key heartbreak: her estranged father walks right past her at a meeting and doesn’t recognize her (33:51):

  “That tells you everything about her childhood, about her relationship to men, about, like, how few options she has.” – Caro (34:12)

5. Enter Strip Clubs and Early Sexual Economy

• Kendra transitions to stripping at 18, instantly making $2,000/night (37:25).
• The hosts compare the economics of stripping to an MLM scheme—the select few at the top succeed disproportionately (38:09).
• Kendra’s own take on stripping:

  “No matter what I was doing or saying to them, I was always thinking, ‘give me my fucking money, you sucker’.”

• Caro draws an apt comparison: “Kendra Wilkinson was the first Gabby Windey, parentheses, complimentary.” (39:41)

6. Road to the Playboy Mansion

• After a boob job and some modeling, Kendra is quickly ushered into the Playboy Mansion via an (almost) accidental discovery—a “different time,” as Jo puts it (41:01).

The Initiation

• The infamous first group-sex encounter with Hef is described like clockwork—“one minute on, next girl rotates”—with the iconic wordplay:

  “It was like a job. Clock in, clock out, or in this case, cock in.” – Kendra (45:33)

• The hosts dissect the constructed narratives around sex at the Mansion, pointing out discrepancies between the memoir and public image (46:20-47:14).

Mansion Life and Reality TV

• Stringent rules: 9 pm curfew, surveillance, restrictions on friendships outside the house (52:23).
• Earned $1,000/week (approx. $1,700 today) plus room and board—high, but at the cost of significant autonomy.
• Hef's casual fat-shaming and 2000s tabloid culture are unpacked (53:29).
• “Eating disorder. That’s my whole sentence.” – Jo (53:46).
• Kendra is portrayed as an outlier among the other, more invested Mansion Girlfriends (55:19).

7. Fame, Financial Advice, and Agency

• Clever money management: Kendra buys a condo and a house during her Mansion years:

  “Buying those houses made me feel powerful. Fame was cool, but power was better.” – Kendra (62:27)

• Caro notes the rare autonomy given to Mansion girlfriends regarding finances (60:24), with the caveat that such autonomy is not always accessible to all.

8. Move Toward Independence: Hank and Leaving the Mansion

• Meeting NFL player Hank Baskett is a pivotal turn. Their romance is largely clandestine due to Mansion surveillance, and Hank’s own secretive family history is touched on (64:56–65:49).
• Kendra leaves Hefner with surprisingly little drama, suggesting the disposability of the Mansion girlfriends (68:12–69:14).

The Hefner “Father-Daughter” Paradox

• Kendra dances with Hef at her wedding, framing him as a proud father figure despite their sexual history (76:18).
• “It’s straight out of Christian fundamentalism… is this why you brought me on?” – Caro (77:03)
• Hosts analyze the uncomfortable dynamic: “It’s not just an ex, it’s an employer, it’s an abuser.” – Jo (77:20)

9. Motherhood, Memoir, and Regret

• The memoir ends with Kendra optimistic about motherhood but admits marital strain with Hank post-baby, dropping a string of non-sequitur opinions on politics and pop culture (Obama, OJ, Michael Jackson):

  “Don’t get me started on OJ or whether Michael Jackson touched those little boys. We will fight about that all day.” – Kendra (79:55)

• Caro and Jo agree the memoir contains more sadness than critical self-reflection. Kendra was only 24 when she wrote it, “without a developed prefrontal cortex” (89:04).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Playboy Mansion’s sexual transactions:

  “Kendra learns from an early age … that if you exchange your body for monetary currency or social currency, you will get far. And that’s very uncomfortable, and people don’t like to think about that. But it’s actually true for her.” – Caro (29:23)

• On tabloid-era misogyny:

  “Anyone who was around to pick up a tabloid in, like, 2003, the way we treated women was crazy … we would describe, like, a size 4 as being overweight.” – Caro (53:46)

• On pseudo-fatherhood:

  “The father daughter dance at Kendra's wedding was with Kendra and Hugh Hefner … That was her father, daughter, dance with this 80-something year old man at his house." – Caro (76:24)

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Where is Kendra Now? (People Interview, Jan 2024)

• Kendra has recanted much of her past narrative:

  “Why did I have sex with Hugh Hefner at that age? Why did I do that? Why did I go to the Mansion in the first place? Why did I get big boobs?... I see loopholes in my life where I’m trying to correct now so my daughter doesn’t have to experience what I did.” (85:40)

• She expresses regret, depression, and a wish to protect her own daughter from a similar fate.
• Hosts note that Kendra’s new frankness only appeared after Hefner’s death, and that a more honest memoir would be valuable now (85:57).
• Today, Kendra lives in Orange County, is a realtor, and co-parents her two kids with Hank (now divorced).

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The Book Dell Test (88:46)

1. Was the author vulnerable?
   Both say: Not really—Kendra was too young for true self-reflection (88:56).
2. Was the book entertaining?
   Both: Yes, but in a “body horror/murder podcast” way, more sad than fun (89:33).
3. Did it elevate your life?
   Both: Absolutely not—“Deep waste of time. But it gave us compassion for women of the era.” (89:49)

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• Mix of acerbic humor, millennial nostalgia, pop culture critique, and empathetic commentary on fame, trauma, and agency.
• The memoir is viewed as a time capsule, a cautionary tale, and a missed opportunity for true vulnerability due to Kendra’s age and circumstances during its writing.
• The episode closes with encouragement to root for Kendra, praise for Caro’s forthcoming novel and podcast, and a bittersweet recognition of how far—and not far enough—public attitudes toward women have shifted since Kendra’s heyday (91:12).

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To learn more:

• Caro’s podcast: Diabolical Lies
• Caro’s novel: Yesteryear (preorder for April 2026)
• Join the Glamorous Trash Patreon for more book club discussion!

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Memorable Hamster Metaphor:

"You buy three hamsters at the mall and then you bring them back and you’re like, maybe all the hamsters don’t get along… And you call them sisters, but they're supposed to have sex with their grandpa." – Jo & Caro (48:20)

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, it's me, your host, Chelsea. I am actually away from the podcast for about eight weeks as I am on set right now directing my first feature film which I also wrote. If you want to know more about the film and you're into stuff like that, we made a tier on Patreon where I'm going to send out updates just for people who want to follow along. Also on Patreon and Apple subscriptions is where you will continue to get your bonus episodes from me every month. We have recorded a bunch, so fear not. We have Denise Richards, Heart, the band, so much stuff coming your way. And in the meantime on the regular feed we have an absolutely stacked set of episodes. Our producer Christina Lopez has truly gone above and beyond. We have books, articles, Wild Rides with some very special guest hosts who you will already know from listening to this podcast. I think the best part about a book club is that you get to hear from a ton of different voices as you form your own opinion. So I'm excited to open up the book club hosting and bring in some new voices. And please, please, please let us know what you think in the comments. And now please enjoy welcome to Glamorous Trash, a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your guest host, Jo Feldman. You may know me from this podcast where I discussed memoirs by Kelly Bishop and Carney Wilson, or when I spent valuable free time weighing in on Skandival when I was deeply postpartum. I'm a person with priorities. I'm also a writer, a writer's assistant, improviser, and mom. My work can be seen most recently in the forthcoming season of Shrinking on Apple, and also in the faces of my two daughters who desperately want to know if they can have a snack. They can. I'm also one of Chelsea's oldest friends and will always be here to make fun of every blonde boyfriend she had in her 20s. And I love that she's not here. So I can say that today we're book clubbing. Sliding Into Home by Kendra Wilkinson with John warrick published in July 2010. You know Kendra Wilkinson the same way I do as the Sporty Spice girlfriend of Hugh Hefner in the early 2000 E series the girls Next Door. This book has a lot going on. Drugs, sex, Pauly Shore, a meteoric rise to fame, morally dubious work standards, and honestly decent financial advice. And before we get started, please note there is a trigger warning for discussions of sensitive topics including substance abuse, eating disorders, self harm, sexual harassment, and suicide. So always take care when listening. Now, let's dive in. My guest today is Caro Claire Burke. Caro is a writer and co host of the politics and culture podcast Diabolical Lies, A cookie favorite. Her first novel, Yesteryear, will be available in April 2026. You can pre order it at the link in the show notes. I got an early copy of it through illegal means. And Carol, I did. It wasn't. I think you said there were more edits after the one I read. It is so good. It's what brought me to you. It's how I found Diabolical Eyes. Cara, welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Wow. Thank you so much. First and foremost, it's such an honor to be here. And I think you did tell me this, but I completely forgot. So now I'm feeling very shy and anxious that you have already read my novel. But I'm so excited to be here today. And I'm also very curious about why you chose this book to pair with me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What is it about me that made you think Kendra Wilkinson?

[A]

It has absolutely nothing to do with you being blonde. I want to put it out there.

[B]

Now because of how hot I am.

[A]

It's how hot. It's how hot you are. I saw them titties on the Internet and I thought, this girl is going to have something to say.

[B]

Nips and hips.

[A]

Nips and hips, baby. I don't know. I figured, like, I think I'm. I am a millennial. I guess I'm closer to the ELDER Millennial. I'm 39. I think you're a younger millennial. I think we might run the gamut of girls impacted by this television show.

[B]

It's true. I actually, I was so thrilled to get this book in the mail. I'm sure we're going to talk about the COVID But quick story. My sister received this package on my behalf and she sent me a text and she was like, what are you reading? And I was like, it's for a podcast. It's for a podcast. Cause she couldn't get over the COVID.

[A]

I've been hiding it from my daughters. Like, God forbid. Yeah, I would do like, they can't catch me. The thing I always worry about, cause I read a lot on an e reader is that my kids don't see me reading different books. They just see me holding one tablet all the time that I've like started being like, should I put a different book in front of it? So they see that I'm like going through like, I read multiple books Instead of just always holding one thing. And then I got this book, and I was like, no, no, we'll stick with the Eread reader.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's an argument to be made about covering this cover with, like, War and Peace just to kind of maintain a reputation. But I will also just say, clearly, I had a blast reading this. I'm so excited to talk about this. Oh, me too.

[A]

Okay, so. So then first of all, just go ahead with your. Just your general takeaway.

[B]

Okay. My general takeaway. Okay. So I have, like, a few takeaways, I have a structural takeaway, and then I have, like, a Kendra Wilkinson fangirl takeaway. Structurally, I don't read many celebrity memoirs. I enjoy listening to this podcast. I don't read them myself. And so I was very moved, structurally, by how a celebrity memoir functions, because it's like, there really isn't a narrative arc in the way that I'm used to. I felt like I was just kind of, like, edging for 10 hours and then it was over. So that was interesting. And then, personally, I did grow up watching the Girls Next Door. I think Sporty Spice is a perfect way to describe Kendra.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was, like, pleasantly surprised by how her voice came through in this book. Like, I could kind of hear her talking, even though it was obviously ghost written.

[A]

Absolutely. Anytime there was a multi syllabic word, I said, now, that's where we're seeing John Warrick really, really earn those coins.

[B]

Also, is it normal, I feel like nowadays with celebrity memoirs, you don't see the ghostwriter's name in the front. And so I wonder if he negotiated it such that his name is there. I feel like usually, like, Prince Harry's ghostwriter wasn't, like, on the COVID of his book.

[A]

They're hiding that. I wonder if there's, like, a pay scale, like, if there's like, a structure, a structured pay. Like, you will show my name. Please don't show my name.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you. You can forego my name for this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Fun fact. I actually, at the beginning of my. My very many layered career, I was a ghostwriter for Snooki. So that's information I have never shared publicly before. That's a tidbit for you guys to keep.

[A]

Wait, what were you ghostwriting her tweets?

[B]

She had a lifestyle blog, and, like, for people who listen to Diabolicalize or don't, I'm very proud of my career now, but I had a bumpy start for, like, the first eight years of my 20s, and I basically Just, like, worked in the mud of clickbait and SEO for a very long time. She had like, a lifestyle blog where I would have to write like 300 word articles about how to make pickle sandwiches or, like, these fun ways to stay cool with popsicle flavored drinks. And they would just like, pay me under. Under the. Not under the table. But I got like, paid dirt in exchange for a lifestyle probably no longer up as one does.

[A]

We all have to get our start somewhere. And Snooki is also a cultural icon.

[B]

She is. I have no regrets.

[A]

No, I wouldn't either. That's honestly a deep brag. Forget your forthcoming novel yesteryear, and subsequent film and television bidding war.

[B]

You wrote for Snooki, former Snooki ghostwriter.

[A]

That is incredible. Well, when I was reading it, I kept going back from like, oh, this is reading, as you said, an unstructured like, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and to being like, oh, my God, we have to protect this woman at all costs. She wrote a memoir when she was 24 years old, and so much was not developed yet.

[B]

Yeah, I was really struck by that as well. And I did, like, a little bit of Googling. I read this. I finished this book at like 4 in the morning this morning. Cause I couldn't sleep. And I was struck at the end as well that number one, it came out in 2010, which means it came out, like, right when she gave birth to her child, which felt very interesting. And I think. I mean, when you talk about narrative distance, that's like the number one question in grad school you'll ask when you're reading a piece is like, how distant is this writer from the time period they're talking about or from the work that they're discussing? And I agree, it was really striking to think about her sharing all of this information at such a young age and without any time to process it. And sidebar. You can cut this if you want, but are we going to talk later about where she is now?

[A]

Absolutely we are.

[B]

Okay, so I won't then.

[A]

I won't.

[B]

I won't discuss that now.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna start at the beginning. Like all good reality tv, the book begins where everything is about to change. It's April 2004. Kendra's boyfriend is dropping her off at the Playboy Mansion for Hugh Hefner's 78th birthday. It's her first gig. She got it from being hot at car shows. And her boyfriend asks, so you'll be naked and she corrects him that she will be painted. Carol, why does the painted nude body feel so early 2000s?

[B]

Oh, my God. First of all, pour some out for Zach, the boyfriend who dropped her off at the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. He plays a really titular role where he's like, oh, no, I'm sure we'll stay together. And then is just like, dropping his girlfriend off the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. It feels very visual. I feel like that was a thing in the Jersey Shore as well. Maybe I'm not correct, but I feel like early stage reality television was shockingly lewd. And I think that it really gives an idea of how our culture has. I'm sure no one will be surprised listening to this podcast. Our culture has taken a conservative shift.

[A]

It's so weird.

[B]

It's weird. It's niche. You might not notice it if you're not paying attention. But, yeah, I really think about that. When you think about how almost like, it was like a bacchanal or, like, almost like these crazy rituals, when you think about these early reality TV shows.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I'm like, the visual of the painted nude to me. I'm like, is that. Am I picturing myself, like, sneaking into my family room to watch Real Sex on volume two? Like, I remember watching so many naked bod be painted. Anyway, her naked body gets painted and Hugh Hefner meets her night one and asks her to be his girlfriend, which is the moment where her life changes. It's so romantic. It's so romantic, she says, staring into his eyes. I didn't see a man 4 times my age with 10 times more girlfriends than most. Even though I hardly knew him yet, I saw a sweet man who made me feel really good about myself. A true gentleman. It was weird, but in my heart, I felt like he was someone I could possibly trust. So will you? There was only one thing I could say. Um, okay.

[B]

Iconic line, iconic response to you, Hefner. And I would also say it's really giving Lolita. It's giving, like, Lolita from Lolita's perspective, it.

[A]

Huh? Yeah. Okay. I feel like okay is sort of like the theme of her entire trajectory through this book, where she's like, yeah, I'll just do that. I'll do that. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios New film Springsteen Deliver.

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[A]

All episodes now streaming on Hulu. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. So we see her accept this offer and then we go back to the beginning where Kendra's born in Claremont, California. It's a community in San Diego. This book gives me much fear about raising my daughters in Southern California because, man, it's so easy breezy. We say I'm okay to a lot of things. Maybe we should think about a little bit. Kendra's early years are like textbook how to instill a lifetime of searching for safety in a person. Her dad leaves at 3. Her mom takes them to New Jersey for a little bit. Them is her and her little brother Colin. They go to New Jersey. Then her dad's like, wait, I do want to be a dad. And then the mom's like, okay, and brings them back to California a year after that. He's like, being a dad is hard and says, no, thank you again. They put Kendra in the middle of this and they ask her to choose between them, the parents. Actually, I think I'll read. This is a page 15 and this is one of the saddest things. This is a child who's probably, I think, five years old. My dad asked me to go with him and my mom wanted me to stay with her. I knew I wanted to be with my mom, but being a kid, I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. My heart just wouldn't let me be honest. I couldn't say, daddy, I like Mommy more than you. So instead, when it came time to make the big decision, I balanced on a crack in the sidewalk and and said, I'm going to step on this crack and close my eyes and if I fall toward mom, I'll go with her. If I fall towards dad, I'll go with him. I left it up to the gods to tilt the earth in a way that made me fall in one direction. It was no longer up to me. No one could be upset.

[B]

Yeah, there is some really delicious or painful depending on how you view it. Dramatic irony throughout this memoir where Kendra is very, like you said, she's very, like, casual about things that she's gone through in a way that I actually find deeply sympathetic. And I feel like it is also reminder of someone who came of age in the early 2000s because we didn't have therapy speak then.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so you don't have someone who's like, yeah, my parents made me, like, an avoidant attachment style. You have someone being like, yeah, this is what happened and it's cool. And like, I no longer, you know, talk to my dad. She's very sympathetic to the family members in her life. Like, you don't really ever see her hold them accountable for a very unstable childhood. And sometimes she'll say things like when she's leaning over that crack where I'm like, I can't tell if she's aware of it, but the audience is definitely aware of what's going on. And you're just like, oh, this is brutal.

[A]

Yeah. And if she really did think the gods tilted the earth in the way that would work out for her. Or if she just leaned towards her mom.

[B]

It's very mythological.

[A]

Very. You know, she is kind of mystical. We see her with the Ouija board. She puts a lot into the universe. So she stays with her mom. It seems her mom does a good job of trying to find something for Kendra to be interested in. She puts her in pageants. It's not her vibe. She doesn't want to wear the makeup. Gymnastics Girl Scouts. She's just not into it. She gets introduced to soccer and she's totally sold. And she says, turns out I just needed to play with balls. Who knew? I mean, she's funny, guys.

[B]

She is funny. She genuinely. I liked her before I read this memoir.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I left this memoir being like, still like her.

[A]

Still like her. I know I still like her. I found myself balls deep in her Instagram last night just looking at her, what she's up to. Oh, yeah. Okay. So back into the book. So now she's 7 years old and a babysitter explicitly explains to her what sex is. Explains her and her friend. So the next day, she and the friend experiment with what they learned. Kendra's mom catches them. The friend gets sent to an all girls school, and Kendra has now lost her only friend. Friendship seems like it's hard for her. There's also a story like a page later about her having a friend named Chris who she does a Ouija board with. And they ask, Luigi, will Kendra get boobs. Luigi's like, yes. Chris is like, will I die? The Ouija's like, yes. She's like, that's weird. And then a day later, he disappears from her life, and it turns out he has terminal cancer. And then he dies.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of this stuff that I would love to double click on. And there's also a lot of this stuff that I feel like she kind of sticks, skims over, and you definitely get the sense that you're not getting the full story. But then she also does, like, the classic celebrity thing where it was like, I didn't have friends because I was an, you know, an introvert who was gorgeous and who was bullied by everyone. And it's like, yeah, I've heard that story before.

[A]

We've all heard it. But, babe, it's page 26 and we lost two friends already. It's not looking good. She then becomes friends with an older man named Yen who lives in her neighborhood. She says she doesn't go into his apartment like he asked her, but she, like, performs for him outside of the apartment. She, like, struts around and they play. And then she has this close relationship with her grandfather. He takes her to soccer games and takes her to see the Blue Angels. Instills a deep respect for the military, which we love so much. We love. We love when grandpas do that. And then she notes that by the start of middle school, her grandfather's not that interested in her anymore, when she needs him most. So I'm just noting, like, a lack of friends and a surplus of older men giving her attention.

[B]

Yeah, and a very transactional relationship with all men, like her father, her grandfather, the boys in her class. She mentions being friends with some of them, but it really does seem like she sees them kind of move in and out of her life depending on how valuable she is to them. And she seems to clock that pretty consistently.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. She does. And I'm, like, trying to not be too speculative about, like, all these connections, like the older men to Hugh Hefner pipeline. But it does feel.

[B]

It does feel like an XY chart.

[A]

It does. And, hey, I'm not a scientist, so she said, I honestly shouldn't be. Don't understand Punnett squares. She feels really mature at the start of school. She's curious about sex. That's the start of middle school. She immediately starts drinking, using substances. Her mom picks her up from a party when she's 12 and she's drunk. And her mom's first instinct is to Drive her ass to juvie, where she asks the police to arrest her daughter. The police are like, no. And Kendra's like, what the fuck, Mom? It's a. It's a toughie.

[B]

It is a toughie. It's. I will say I wasn't. I'm not going to give you my I was uncool spiel, but I will say I was an athlete in college, and so I was very much, like, in the narc section of the room, and I was never at a. I was never in the room when people, like, pulled out drugs. Like, I thought of drugs, like, capital D drugs. I just didn't understand where they happened. I didn't understand how people shared them. It was like this whole secret world that was taking place all around me at this big public university. And so when she's describing this again, she's like, what, 12? At this.

[A]

At this point, she's 12. Doesn't it feel like the movie 13?

[B]

It feels. Okay. Incredible reference. It exactly feels like the movie thirteen, which has the famous, like, no bra, no panties moment. Yeah. It feels so much like 13. And I was just reading it. That was like, a really voyeuristic moment for me because I'm like, I have no access, none, to this experience that she had.

[A]

No. When I was 12, I was at bar and bat mitzvahs using a quarter to call my parents from the payphone to be like, how's your Saturday going, guys? I think only a few more slow dances and then someone come pick me up.

[B]

I was learning how to draw eyeliner on my lower lid about half an inch thick, and it didn't do what I thought it would.

[A]

It's so weird. It, like, doesn't really make you look like Avril Lavigne, no matter how hard you try. Yeah.

[B]

Nor did the Sideswipe. And these were things I had to learn the hard way.

[A]

So it's so unfortunate. So hard. I just couldn't. I couldn't do all those drugs and drinking because my back brace just, like, restricted my movement too much. It's just too hard. So Kendra's like. Kendra's living a different life. Caro's doing sports. I'm velcroing myself into my back brace. Kendra is drinking, she's doing drugs. She meets a guy who's 20 years old outside of an apartment complex that becomes, like, her hangout. It becomes the Spot. And he invites her. People are doing drugs. She meets a cool, hot girl there who explains sex even more explicitly than her babysitter, and she's like, I want to do that. So she calls a safe friend. Honestly, I feel like this was a relief to me that this is how it went down. Of all the ways it could have happened in the apartment, she's like, I'm calling this good boy that my mom thinks is a good boy over to my house, they have sex. Obviously, it's not exciting.

[B]

Yeah, I actually. I think there's, like, a very casual way in which she is, like, kind of in control a lot of the time, or at least that's. That's how she perceives it. And I actually think that your perception isn't. That's not illegitimate. Like, even if you were in a position where there were all these systemic factors, like, she does seem very often to take matters into her own hands in a way that I found really interesting.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. She doesn't seem to be peer pressured. She gets presented with ideas and she's like, yeah, I'll try that.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

She's a very, very. Yes. And attitude. Could have done improv. She says about her losing her virginity. We stopped two unsatisfied, sexually frustrated teenagers. But I wasn't a virgin anym. And I was very happy about that. It was literally the best time of my life. At that moment, I was a woman, and I was a decade away from losing my virginity.

[B]

Same hard same. And also, I should note for the listener, it's very interesting to me that Kendra, like, doesn't describe sex at all. Every single time. She describes a sex scene throughout the memoir, and there are many. Yeah, she is very quick about it. It's like, there is no description, no body parts. It's like one sentence. And I thought that that was interesting because it's like, she's not afraid to talk about doing crystal meth or, like, going to the Playboy Mansion. But I'm like, was this, like, an audience demographic thing? Like, were you worried that that would not, like, let you sell your book? But, like, that's what I. I frankly want a little bit more detail.

[A]

I do, too. I feel the same way. And I wonder. I. Even when we get to the Playboy part, I'm curious, too, if I keep remembering that she is, like, deeply postpartum when she wrote this book and also, like, maybe a year out of she.

[B]

Didn'T write the book.

[A]

Oh, I'm so sorry. She's deeply postpartum. When John Work was working on this book and probably, like, texting her to get dates and stuff, and she's like, yeah, yeah, no, I did coke that day. But I wonder if there's also, like, NDA stuff with the Playboy Mansion that she couldn't go into a lot. Anyway, there's. Yeah, but you're. Yes. You're so right. She doesn't. She doesn't describe her body or sex in a way that feels embodied.

[B]

Yeah. It'll just be like, we had sex. Like. Like, tell me you're Kendra. Like, you're. And I know she's open, you know? You know, if you went to coffee with this chick, she would be so down to talk about sex 100%. That's why I'm like, free Kendra.

[A]

Free Kendra. 100%. So Kendra starts being a bad girl. She does Coke at 13 with her apartment people. She's skipping school. She wears a bikini to school. She gets in trouble for. She throws a bat at a teacher. She gets in trouble for that. She steals a bunch of mini bottles of booze from her grandpa, brings them to school. A kid gets drunk and then narcs on her. And she gets kicked out of school. And she's so pissed, even still, about this kid. She says, if there was one rule in life that I actually did follow, it was you don't rat someone out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Snitches get stitches, which makes me still scared of her. I'm like, I'm a rat. I am a rat. I'm ratting now you're a narc. I'm a nar. I found cigarettes in my sister's closet when she was out, and I showed them to a babysitter, and I was like, arrest. I was like, kendra's mother, Alicia, take my sister to juvie. I had no idea how. How good cigarettes would taste one day. I just had no clue.

[B]

None of us know until we get there.

[A]

I know. Ain't that the truth? It's really true. So she's stealing from her grandmother. She's stealing from her grandpa. She's spending her lunch money on cocaine. Now, she's still trying to make soccer work, but, like, she is falling deep into drugs. She's trying acid. She's hanging out in this skater world. What's interesting to me is she talks about hanging out at this skate park and that there was a church next to it where the preachers would come out and talk to the kids. And she seems, like, a little interested. And she says, there's a small part of me that wanted to follow in their path and be a good kid, because deep down, I was a good kid. But at that point in my life, nothing was going to save me. Okay? We're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card and the one family finance and safety app used by millions of families helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify tonight, turn down the noise of the day and focus on the Rest with agz, the nightly drink for winding down and resting up. New from AG1, AGZ supports your body's natural sleep cycle with clinically studied key herbs, adaptogens and minerals in amounts supported by research. And no melatonin, helping you wake feeling rested, wind down, rest up with Agz. Learn [e-mail] okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. She just had this idea of herself that she wasn't worthwhile from the beginning.

[B]

Yeah, there's like this kind of manifest destiny to her sexuality that I was really into. Like, I think that Kendra, in many ways it's really interesting. I actually just did did a little bit of a deep dive on the early 2000s, like tabloid culture for an episode we did about pop stars. And like, it should be stated explicitly that Kendra was coming of age at a time when we treated women like dog. So it's really interesting that like she was so comfortable with her body and comfortable with her sexuality almost in spite of all of the odds. And it's really interesting to see that as like a through line that carries forward 100%.

[A]

When we later get to the mansion, she reflects on how she doesn't feel comfortable compared to the other girls. Yeah, I wonder too if it's like the crowds she's running with in San Diego, the fact that she doesn't seem to surround herself with a lot of girlfriends. And I don't know where she's getting her validation. And she doesn't go into it, which is so frustrating. But she is so deeply in pain. Throughout her entire adolescence, she hates her mom's rules. She decides to run away when she's in 8th grade, she runs away and stays at her friend Brittany's house.

[B]

House.

[A]

And her mom keeps calling Britney's mom and being like, is Kendra living at your house? And Brittany's mom is like, absolutely not. And Every day. She's like, are you sure Kendra's not at your house? And she's like, she is not here. And she's like, can you check in the middle of the night? She's like, oh, my bad. Your daughter is living in my home.

[B]

Quick question. Yeah. You're. You're a little bit of an Angelino, right? I feel like every book I read about people who grew up in California is like, this ragtag, runaway teen vibe. And I'm like, are all children running? Is it like weapons? Are like, all the kids running away all of the time? Like, what the the is going on over there?

[A]

They're all just trying to get to Erewhon, so they want. They want to go there, but they can't afford it, so they have to stay with their parents.

[B]

It's crazy. It's like, I genuinely feel like celebrity memoir is, like, lit fic. Like, everyone from, like, the highest of the high to the lowest of the low is like, yeah, so I got my skateboard and then I, like, went down the boulevard and I didn't see my mom for, like, three weeks. And I'm like, what.

[A]

What are these moms doing?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know where the dads. No one ever cared to ask, but they should have probably been doing some of that heavy lifting too. When Kendra gets into high school, she's like, here's my mom's schedule. At 9pm she would take a shower, get in bed, and turn off the light. And then the light would come on at 6am so I knew I had 9pm to 6am every day to get high as fuck. And it's like, Kendra's mom, let's push it to 9:15 one day and just see if our kid's sneaking out. You're worried about it?

[B]

Kendra's mom is like, I'm a nurse and I'm exhausted, so she'll do what she's gonna do.

[A]

And I have a whole ass other kid who we're not gonna talk about until the very end.

[B]

For one sentence, Colin gets nothing. Gets nothing on the page. May Colin rest in peace wherever he is. I think he's still alive, but we're not sure. From the book.

[A]

May all brothers of Playboy bunnies and Playboy girlfriends get their memoirs to hear about how much they were teased in high school for having hot sisters with big titties. Seriously, I bet that was hard. So, okay, so we're. Now Kendra's mom has done her best to get her back enrolled back into high school, and she immediately has a perverted math teacher who says if she wears a short skirt to Parent Open House and explains the syllabus, he'll give her an A for the whole semester. This is, like, her first week of high school.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

It's a lot. She's just, like, she is met, and she keeps trying. And I feel like she is met with, like, the easy way out in many ways to use her body. So she's like, this guy's such a pervert. But she does show up, up in a mini skirt, and she does do the thing he asked her to do, which also, like, she's 14, so. Yeah, she's gonna do that.

[B]

Yeah. There's, like, this very weird underlying, like, uncomfortable truth. I feel like that exists at the bottom of this memoir, which is that, like, Kendra learns from an early age and then it carries out through to her adulthood that if you exchange your body for, like, monetary currency or for social currency, you will get far. And that's very uncomfortable, and people don't like to think about that. But it's actually true for her, and I'm sure we'll talk about that more. But, like, she really did kind of come from a very unstable household and had very few other alternatives. And so I kept being faced with these moments where she kind of says, okay, to the terms of this arrangement of, like, you will give us your body in some way, and then that will provide you stability or an A or money or a roof over your head.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like the instinct is to be like, no, don't do it. But I'm like, well, she really didn't have many other options, so it's hard for me to really punish her for that.

[A]

Right. 100%. And we later find out when she gets kicked out of school and goes back to school and finds out she has a learning disorder. And once she is told she has a learning disorder and is put in special ed, she starts to excel in school. So it's sort of like if she was struggling in school and a teacher's like, here's your option for your A. Yeah. You take it. Because the teacher probably should have been like, why is she struggling? But instead, he is a pervert. Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're right. She does what she is offered, and it is the way out and up for her constantly.

[B]

Yeah. I think you're a very lucky kid if your options for upward mobility are related to your brain. Like, that's like a kind of a position of privilege. Hate to say it that Bluntly, but, like, not everyone gets that option.

[A]

100%.

[B]

100%, said the podcaster to the other podcaster.

[A]

No. It's like, so hard, though. Like, it's so hard. So Kendra meets this guy named Tony. He's the leader of a group of taggers who graffiti and steal. They have sex on a park bench out in the open. And she is doing any drug she can get her hands on. All of it. None of it seems natural. But she doesn't seem to stop. She even says, I wasn't quite sure if I enjoyed the sex. It was more of an ego boost.

[B]

Public sex is my worst nightmare. Let it be known.

[A]

Cannot fathom. You couldn't.

[B]

I would. I would do crystal meth for three decades before I doing public sex once.

[A]

I mean, like, I have a hard enough time, honestly, like, squatting and pissing outside without getting it all over my underwear. Like, the idea of doing anything outdoors that is done mostly indoors is a no. Is it? No. It's a no.

[B]

Yeah. I'm still working through my Catholic guilt over private sex, let alone public sex sex.

[A]

Not on a bed. What am I, Britney Spears?

[B]

Yeah. Straight missionary baby.

[A]

That. My God, who do you think I am? Not an acrobat. Poor Kendra. Okay, so Kendra's with Tony. Tony eventually gets busted and he tells her, like, you're better than this. Like. Like, don't get caught up in this. Obviously, Tony's words as he's being carted away by the police don't land with her. She starts using crystal meth. Her friend is worried about her, and she just keeps using substances because, as she said, when I had time to think, bad things would happen. She acknowledges that she's in a depression and she starts engaging in self harm. She said she felt like no one was looking out for her. She has a suicide attempt. Her mom and her grandma take her to a hospital, and then she has to write a letter promising she won't attempt suicide again. I got it wrong.

[B]

That can't be modern guidelines for dealing. There's no. I mean, someone write in, I'm not a psychiatrist, but there's no way that is modern guidelines for dealing with that.

[A]

And you pinky swear. Let's pinky swear. I'm not gonna see again here.

[B]

Kendra, it's giving Professor Umbridge.

[A]

It is giving Professor Umbridge. This is. You have to write letter. What is this, the Simpsons Cold open on a chalkboard? Yeah, this is crazy. Anyway, surprise to no one. She begins to engage in self harm again. School counselor finds out and tells her mom who takes her to a mental institution where she stays for two weeks. When she comes out, she gets put into a continuation school where she just keeps getting up every day. She decides, I can't live at home. She moves in with her new boyfriend Mario, who's a low level coke dealer. And at one point, her mom reaches out to her dad and is like, I need help with Kendra. I don't know, I'm so curious, like, what the impetus was to finally call her dad. They agree to meet at a street fair in San Diego. And she sees him walking towards her and she's so nervous, so nervous, so nervous. And then he walks right past her. He doesn't even recognize her.

[B]

Dude, that scene when I read that, I was like, dude, this is an Oscar scene. Like, this is that. That was like the moment. Probably top three moment of the whole memoir for me, where I was like. That tells you everything about her childhood, about her relationship to men, about, like, how few options she has.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just. My heart broke for her.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It was really sad, the idea of, like, your heart beating so fast that you're about to have this meeting. And then he whooshes by, sends her into another tailspin. She has a near fatal cocaine overdose. It marked her lowest point in her substance use. And then her boyfriend comes in with more cocaine and is like, want to keep doing coke? And she's like, I almost died just now. So she calls her grandma and she's like, please help me get back into my house. And her grandma helps her. Her mom accepts her apology. She gets back in school. She finds out she has this learning disorder. She rocks special ed. She gets back into sports. She's working at Papa John's. Life is good. She's going into senior year. She meets this guy named Zach. Caro did say justice for Zach. And I know, Carol, you're gonna take that back in like 100 pages.

[B]

Honestly. Can I tell you, hot take? Probably not. But we'll get there when we get there. I think Zach got by the detail, by the arrangements in this memoir, bro.

[A]

Zach got his rent paid for him for a year by Kendra.

[B]

Okay. By Hugh Hefner. By Right. No, no, you're right. She's tripping.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

[A]

How dare you skip the fact that she graduates from high school at Sea World. How dare we gloss over.

[B]

Sorry, I watched Black Whale. So I don't support. I don't support.

[A]

We did just have a neighbor ask my daughter if she's been to SeaWorld. And my daughter was like, what's SeaWorld? And I was like, nothing. It's nothing.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

You'll never know. You already found out about Disneyland. We're so fucked living here.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

So Kendra, also, her last year of high school, gets a job as a dental assistant. She's feeling that she is the smart person she always knew she was, and she's feeling accomplished. And then the dentist starts asking her to administer crowns to patients. And she's like, I don't think I'm.

[B]

Supposed to be doing this.

[A]

Another weird abuse of power.

[B]

Very weird abuse of power. And I should say second only to public sex is my fear of the dentist. So this was like. I felt like I was on Fear Factor reading this memoir.

[A]

This was your requiem for a dream.

[B]

100%.

[A]

I'm so sorry. This pink, fluffy memoir made you face so much of your own trau. And to imagine that, like, you got a crown and you, like, a year later, you're watching E, and the girl who put your crown in is jumping up and down out of bed, and you have nurse disgusting mansion. You're like, wait, that's the girl?

[B]

I mean, she didn't go to school.

[A]

So she decides she's over dental assisting after her SeaWorld graduation. And she meets Zach. Zach. When she meets Zach, by the way, she's 16, he's 20, and she tells him he's 18. He's like, awesome. Even though she's still in high school. And eventually she comes clean. Zach is, like, the most on the up and up guy she's dated. Everyone in her family loves him. He doesn't do drugs. She's done with drugs. She says to Zach, like, I get a lot of compliments on my body. I'm gonna be a stripper, and I'm gonna make a ton of money, and I'm gonna get my stripping license, which is a thing, apparently. And. And Zach says, okay. She makes $2,000 her first night stripping.

[B]

Yeah, it's very honora.

[A]

It's very anora. Honestly. Jealous. $2,000, please.

[B]

I actually remember during this time period that there was a lot of tabloid fodder about. Do you remember Jenna Jameson?

[A]

Of course I do.

[B]

Very. I mean, I. No one watches porn here, just from the tabloids, but I remember there was a lot made in the early 2000s about how Jenna Jameson would strip in Las Vegas and make like. Like 40 grand in a night like there. It was like. It was like an Us Weekly. It was a whole thing.

[A]

My mind, when I would hear stuff like that was like, so then do you just work one day a year.

[B]

I think they actually would. Or I think for her, she probably made a million bucks in a few years. And then, I mean, who knows if she had a. A solid financial plan? But yeah, I think they made a shit ton of money.

[A]

It's amazing. I mean, why. Why not?

[B]

It's very adjacent to, like, female MLMs, where the best strippers or, like, women at the best strip club do make a shit ton of money. But then it's like, well, let's look at the whole pyramid, you know what I mean?

[A]

And this is exactly why I'm not selling my panties. This is a thing I'm thinking about all the time. How do you get it started? This is a. Listen, if the earth wasn't dying, I would do it because the idea of wearing fresh new underwear every day sounds so great.

[B]

It does sound really good that you.

[A]

Just never have to launder your underwear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But my husband said he won't let me do it because he's like, it's not cause I have a problem with it. It's because you wouldn't stop talking about it to everyone.

[B]

Wow. What a. What a feminist. Husband won't let you sell your panties, but he's on board with the mission.

[A]

But he's policing my words. This is why I love Kendra. This is what she says about stripping. My feeling toward the customers wavered. On one hand, I always looked at the men as stupid. No matter what I was doing or saying to them, I was always thinking, give me my fucking money, you sucker. I'd smile and say, whatever it took to get them to just keep giving me more money. But then sometimes I would talk to them and I'd actually start considering them friends. I tried to be a tough bitch, but I'm also a softy.

[B]

You know, what I'm realizing in retrospect is that Kendra Wilkinson was the first Gabby Windy, parentheses, complimentary. Wow. Because Gabby Wendy is also kind of like how she talks about sex. She's very casual. She's very comfortable with her body. She kind of like, floats through her sexuality. She's so dismissive of men in the funniest possible way. And they're both kind of like athletic vibes.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I think there's something there.

[A]

Yes. Yes, there is something. I wonder if they've ever met.

[B]

They should.

[A]

They should. Oh, Kendra should sell Gabby Wendy a house. There is a psychic moment calling out a psychic moment for the cookies here. One regular once told me that I would be famous someday. I thought, shut the fuck up. It was like he was a fortune teller or something, because the next words out of his mouth were, you're gonna be one of those famous girls at the Playboy Mansion. Kendra's making a lot of money. She's supporting Zach. This is when she's supporting Zach. Carol.

[B]

Yeah, I just want to pause really quickly and say I am realizing now that I. It was maybe a mistake for me to prematurely throw my weight behind Zach. And so I would like to say on the record that I feel bad for him in some ways, but also I forgot that he was dating, like, a 15 year old and stealing her money. So. More complicated. There's nuance here. There's new ones.

[A]

I mean, we all contain multitudes. We have to. We haven't read Zest memoir, to be fair.

[B]

Yeah, I have. Like, I've been canceled on TikTok for less, but I just want to establish that I'm not pro Zach.

[A]

Okay, well, all right. Well, we'll see what happens, because there's more Zach to come. Kendra decides she's going to get a boob job. She pays for it with her stripping money. She gets it done. She gets more professional photos taken that get posted to a modeling website. And that is how she gets the gig at the beginning of the book for Hef's big birthday party.

[B]

Yeah. It seems crazy easy.

[A]

These are when I'm like, we're in a different time. Things. Were.

[B]

Were they easier, do you think, though? I don't know. Because, like, the way she describes it is like. It's literally like her almost. Her first gig works out, and she literally gets invited to the Playboy Mansion. So when I was reading that, I actually don't doubt that she's telling the truth. She doesn't strike me as someone who's a liar. No. But it was really striking to me that she's just like, boob job photos invited to the Playboy Mansion and, like, almost immediately invited to be Hugh Hefner's girlfriend.

[A]

So I watched the pilot episode of Girls Next Door to refresh myself last night, and someone is like, yeah, there's a picture of Kendra left on a printer, and Q. Hefner just walked by and was like, who's she? Bring her in. I want her to be my girlfriend.

[B]

Wow. Incredible.

[A]

It feels like when I was 14 and you'd hear about people being discovered at the mall. So you'd go to the mall.

[B]

Yeah. And not to be that girl, but I feel like nowadays you have to do way more body augmentation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In order to get to that point, like, all she had gotten done was a boob job. She was very young. Like, she hadn't gotten her whole face done. Like, she was pretty. Pretty au natural by Hollywood standards.

[A]

100%. It is. Really. Half of the book is getting to the Mansion.

[B]

Okay, I was just gonna ask you a quick question. Is what do you think about the amount of time she dedicates to her childhood versus the amount of time she dedicates to the period of time that we kind of want to know about?

[A]

The only part we're interested in.

[B]

Yeah. Like, as a celebrity memoir expert, is this a standard amount of time to spend on childhood?

[A]

I don't think so. I think this is a big chunk of, like, her doing drugs as a child. But you're right. It's like, there's really only, like, five years where she is famous until she writes this book.

[B]

Right. So I guess they just had had a word count to hit. But it is notable, like, I would say a third of the book is a series of chapters that kind of recycle the same thing of, like, doing drugs. Boyfriend treats you like crap. And I don't want to diminish that. I do want to create space. Wicked style for her experience. But I feel like it could have been done in one chapter of, like, I had all these boyfriends and I did all these drugs, and then I became a stripper. And then.

[A]

And then I got this job. And then she could tell. And then she could tell us what actually happened at the mansion instead of what she writes in the book.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which would also be awesome if we knew all that actual information. So she's at the Mansion for her first night. She's doing jello shots even though she's not supposed to. She meets Jack Nicholson. She's propositioned for threesome. She says she feels like a little girl for the first time in a while and she wanted to explore the world more. She's like, her eyes are wide. She can't even believe it. Zach picks her up. He's probably just gone to sit at the Hollywood sign for an hour to smoke a cigarette and come pick her up.

[B]

Just stare out into the distance and contemplate changing everything. Also, could I just say, if being propositioned for threesomes at the Playboy Mansion makes you feel like a little girl, then maybe some. Some introspection might be warranted. That's just my two cents.

[A]

It's a real Alice in Wonderland moment.

[B]

Seriously. I'm like, did it make you feel like a little girl?

[A]

Yeah, it would make Me feel. God, I can't even imagine being propositioned for a threesome.

[B]

Nor can I. I would be like.

[A]

What, three people sitting on the couch watching TV together? I guess I could do that. So she gets invited back for the weekend of Hef's actual birthday. And she tells Zach she's going back. Her mom is warning her about the mansion. It's orgies, orgies, orgies. She's going back. It's the Casablanca themed party. She has nothing to except for cutoff jeans. And Bridget, who's one of the other girlfriends, helps get her dressed. And this is the moment where she gets invited upstairs for the first time to Hugh Hefner's bedroom. And this is what she says. Holly got things started by getting Hef going orally. Meanwhile, some of the other girls were slapping ass, getting all kinky, and yelling out all sorts of crazy things. I was scared. These girls were strangers to me. I just sat on the edge of the bed and watched. I wanted to be left alone and only do what I want to do. One by one, each girl hopped on Hef and had sex with him. By this point, my mom's voice was no longer in my head, thank goodness. I was just focused on what was going on in front of me. Each girl rode Hef for about a minute or so and then hopped off and did her own thing. Some fooled around with the other girls, while others just sort of sat to the side and watched. I studied their every move. Then it was my turn. I had been taking notes in my head, so I knew about a minute was all I needed to put in. Counting the time in my head, I had sex with Hefty half for the first time. At about the minute mark, I pulled away and it was done. It was like a job. Clock in, clock out, or in this case, cock in.

[B]

You know that that was John Warwick's idea. He was like, hey, Kendra, re our earlier conversation, I just want to propose a few wordplay options.

[A]

John Warwick was like, title of book. And they were like, no, John.

[B]

She just, like, thumbs up the text messages and doesn't reply. Yeah, so. So I'm curious what you think about this, because I recall that when this show was on the air, I think that they tried to argue that they weren't having sex with Hef. Wasn't that like, a running narrative?

[A]

Yes. So I also forgot to say that before, when she gets invited upstairs, a girl is like, here, come to my room and borrow some panties. And she's like, okay, thank you. Which made me be like, what Was the situation before the panty borrow where there are no panties? What were we wearing? What was happening? Then they all got in a tub together and then they got on the bed. Wet, dirty, messy.

[B]

Do you know if this narrative coincides with what Holly and Bridget have said?

[A]

So Holly, I believe, alleges that Kendra got her job by having sex with Hef, which does seem to be what Kendra is saying. Oh. But what Kendra says is that a few years into her living in the mansion, I think like two years into her living in the mansion, one day Hef just goes upstairs with just Holly and they never have sex with him again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But there was this thing about the girls next door where they made it seem so chaste.

[B]

I'm pretty sure that they said explicitly that they had never and that it wasn't a part of their arrangement. And I think that this has only come out following the show. And I mean, anyone with a brain could be like, he's probably fucking these women. But it was notable to me, and I remember when I read that scene about them all having sex, I was like, oh, this is not how they portrayed. This is not how they told me. It worked at the Playboy man.

[A]

They said they just could order chicken tenders whenever they wanted.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so confused.

[A]

I don't get it. For a while I was like, I wanna live in that house, have a big ass phone in my room and call some guy to bring me chicken tendies.

[B]

Yeah. It's also. It was very surprising to me, and you just hinted at this, that Kendra, Bridget and Holly are not like, all close. No, that was pretty obvious in this memoir. Like, they are very much specters at the outside of this story.

[A]

In Kendra's memoir, it does seem like Holly is very into being Hef's girlfriend. In this memoir, the story is that Holly is into being the girlfriend. Bridget is sort of doing her own thing. They have moments where they bond, where they take her shopping or they all go on trips together. But it's really competitive on the show. They all want their own air time.

[B]

And it also just seems like they were all dropped into this environment without any context besides the fact that Hef wanted to have sex with all of them. And so they probably also just had, like, wildly different childhood backgrounds, wildly different socioeconomic relationships, like, wildly different personalities. And so it's almost just like you buy three hamsters at the mall and then you bring them back and you're like, maybe all the hamsters don't get along.

[A]

And you're like, they're Sisters.

[B]

I feel like that metaphor is really going off the rails already in my.

[A]

Mind that I'm like, no, no. You bring the three hamsters home from the mall. You call them sisters, but they're supposed to have sex with their grandpa. That is also lives in your hamster house.

[B]

There's a very old guinea pig. Yeah, it worked.

[A]

In your world, is a guinea pig related to a hamster? Is a guinea pig a grandpa and the hamster is the grandkids?

[B]

Yes, yes. In my world, a guinea pig is a wizened hamster.

[A]

That's what happens. It's the old grape to prune pipeline. So, yeah, you're definitely. You're right. They're like, these women are not getting along. Also, just the idea of, like, okay, I only have to have sex with him for one minute. This is a thing I often say to myself at the gym. I can do anything for one minute. The idea that it's like first sex with Hugh Hefner. Also the idea that Hugh Hefner is, like, enjoying it. The picture of it is disturbing to me.

[B]

Well, and it's not surprising that a man whose relationship to sexuality kind of defined our relationship to sexuality, and it was, like, very pinupy, very postery, very porny, frankly. Yeah. It's not surprising to me that that's the type of sex he would want. That it's like a bunch of women, like, moaning in a performative way one after another. It's a pretty explicit visual.

[A]

I'm going to start a rumor right now. Hugh Hefner never experienced the female orgasm. He never saw it. Oh, he never made it happen. He's never experienced it.

[B]

I don't think he even believes in it. I think he's like a flat earther for the female orgasm. I don't think he believes in the G spot.

[A]

It's pointless. What would the point of it be? Yes, totally.

[B]

He's like, but they're my hamsters.

[A]

So Kendra gets invited to move in to the mansion, and she takes her dogs and tells Zach and never breaks up with Zach. Zach. So this is where those roads diverge.

[B]

Okay, this is. Yeah, this is my part.

[A]

This is. This is good.

[B]

This is where I genuinely was like, what in the. Are you thinking, Zach? Where, like, she would go to the Playboy Mansion every weekend, essentially. Like, that's how it started, that for the first year or so, she was still stripping during the week because she was told in the early years that Hef liked girls who were in school. So she, like, lied about being in school. To him. And so he thought she could only come full time in the summer. And so for the beginning, she's stripping full time.

[A]

Time.

[B]

She's going to the Playboy Mansion on the weekend. And Zach over here is like, Mr. Cuck City driving her to get boned by Hugh Hefner. Being like, make good choices, Jamie Lee Curtis style. And she's like, I will. I love you. Mwah. And he's like, I trust you totally, babe. And I'm like, he's probably a dirtbag idiot. So I don't want to lend him too much support anymore, but it is a hysterical visual to me.

[A]

You got to imagine him driving away from that commute, mute, on his way la de da all the way back to San Diego.

[B]

Oh, I'm imagining him, white knuckle.

[A]

You're seeing him, like, full of fury. And I'm seeing him, like, totally turned off. Like, he's just like. Like he just goes to sleep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a week until it's time for her to come back.

[B]

Yeah. Like, his severance. He, like, his Audi is like. Doesn't even know what's happening right now.

[A]

When she does officially leave, she's like, I'm gonna take the dogs. And he's like, okay. And then in the memoir, she's like, and that's my way of being like, like, so we're done. But she never actually breaks up with him, so he thinks they're still together. And people are probably like, how's Kendra? And he's probably like, she's good. She's working really hard. She's like, you know, she's.

[B]

She's been at the mansion for, like, 30 years.

[A]

I guess she's on TV show. I don't know. It's wild. When she moves into the mansion, she slowly realizes. And this is also what's so insidious about the girlfriend thing, is this information gets rolled out to her, like, over time. No one's ever like, hi, you've signed up to be a girlfriend for Hugh Hefner, and here's your contract. Here are the rules. And what she finds out is that her curfew is 9pm everyone. She finds out because everyone puts on jammies at nine o' clock every night. To me, chilling. A chilling visual of the whole mansion just turning into night mode.

[B]

Yeah. She's not even allowed to, like, she has to hide. Hanging out with the chefs and the butlers because Hugh, I guess someone boned one of them once. She's very, very respectful of he all the way through. Describes him as Like a sweet old man. He was great to her. And in some ways, I actually do understand that. I'm sure we'll get to that. But, like, it is very interesting to me that it is, again, another dramatic irony that she is describing an insane surveillance world that she has opted into in exchange for a thousand dollars a week.

[A]

We looked it up and it was the equivalent of seventeen hundred dollars a week with room and board.

[B]

Sure. And like, that's again, theoretically awesome if you forget the fact that you've, like, lost all bodily autonomy in exchange, like, I don't know, know. So it is interesting. And then she gains weight and half gives her, quote, tough love.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so half primal scream. This was a. That was a toughie. So Kendra writes, one night we were all in the limo on the way to a book signing with Hef, and he pulled me aside. Is everything okay? He asked. I feel fat, Hef. I told him, everyone's so pretty. It's making me really insecure. Well, you look a little bigger. He said, honestly, maybe you can go to the gym.

[B]

This octogenarian just, like, telling this 19 year old that she's not hot enough for him. I'm like, sir, bro, Excuse me.

[A]

Kendra is so skinny. Which is.

[B]

She's so skinny.

[A]

The other thing, like, when I was re watching it last night, I was like, this is why. Eating disorder. That's my whole sentence.

[B]

Well, and I will. Now that I've defended Zach, I will defend Hugh Hefner, so. TAPS Mike clears THROAT this was everyone's perspective during that time period. Like, again, anyone who was around to pick up a tabloid in, like, 2003, the way we treated women was crazy. The way we talked about their bodies so openly. Like, it actually gives some perspective for how far we have come. In a good way. Like that. It was so casual. The way we would describe, like, a size 4 as being overweight.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the Jessica Simpson at a concert picture where everyone's like, what happened to her whale? And she's a size four.

[B]

Yeah. Justice for Jessica, for sure.

[A]

Justice for Jessica. I wish her the best. Thinking of her all the time. But Kendra's like. Even though she says she's like, having this discomfort in her body, she's, like, loving it. At the mansion, Hugh starts paying for her to go to physical therapy and massage classes. She's hiking Runyon. Classic LA move. She's meeting celebrities. She's like, on the red carpet. She is being forced to watch black and white cinema against her will. But maybe it's landing in Some way. And. And Hugh introduces the concept to them that they're going to be on a reality show called Homely Hills, which is their neighborhood they live in, in Beverly Hills. And this is a maybe one to two sentence explanation where she's like, we don't like the idea. We're skeptical. And then we come around. Immediately the girls are like, okay. She finds out that the camera crew wants to film in the bedroom at these club nights. So initially, they do want to do these sex scenes. She, Bridget and Holly come together. They band together. They say that, like, you cann. We want to keep our private life private, which I don't know how you do on a reality show about where you live, but they put their feet down. They say, no. Hef agrees. You cannot film us in our bedroom. And then they start filming the show, and it becomes, like, a massive success immediately.

[B]

Yeah. I thought it was interesting that at various points, Kendra will say pretty explicitly, like, I didn't expect anything from Hugh. So what he gave me was such a pleasant surprise. And I'm like, okay, my sister in Christ, all of you were there sucking this guy's dick in exchange for the hope that you might have a career and, like, truly moral neutrality. I totally understand the exchange taking place here, but, like, you were not doing this because he was simply such a good time to hang around.

[A]

She says in the pilot, she's like, when people call me a gold digger, I wasn't trying to get a rich boyfriend. This just happened. And it's like, okay, keep in mind.

[B]

She was, what, 20? Was she like, 21 years old?

[A]

She's 19, dude. She's crazy young. She's so young. And it's also so clear when you're watching it. The other girls are older than her. They're in their later 20s. They definitely don't like her. It's so obvious. They give her a shit at it. They make her look like an idiot the entire time that she's, like, late. She's not cleaning up after her dogs. Her dogs are poorly trained. She's like, has no sense of decorum for how you're supposed to enter Hef's room or speak to him. Like, it's very clear that, like, for Holly, this is a job, and she takes it very seriously. And for Kendra, she's like, whatever, come here.

[B]

Yeah, it's also, like, not the slam dunk legal claim you think it is. Holly and Bridget to be like, we're better at Stockholm syndrome. I'm like, sick. You know how to enter Hef's bedroom. Like, what?

[A]

You can't just, like, walk in here and ask for a DVD of Road Trip. Like, there's a. There's a way that you do it. You have to go through Mary. Everyone knows you have to go through.

[B]

Do you remember Mary, like, Dr. Daddy, may I enter the room? I do remember Mary.

[A]

When you rewatch the show, it is. You're looking at a hoarder's house. You're looking at a set. You're looking at Gray Gardens for a man.

[B]

Yeah. It's also, like, behind every war criminal is, like, a sweet old lady who does his paperwork. So Mary did a lot of emotional work in that show.

[A]

Oh, Mary. The first shot of Mary, by the way she is, is cupping the balls of a puppy and being like, I don't know if they've dropped yet. You're like, why is she touching the genitalia of a dog? What am I watching?

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Why not? Why not what? A queen that's also probably rotting in hell somewhere. I don't know if she's still alive. Justice for Mary, unclear. Kendra talks a lot about how she doesn't like the bunny suit and how she's not a Playboy bunny and. And she has to wear one for one event one time, and it makes her really uncomfortable, and it makes Hef mad. She says Hef would get mad when I didn't wear it. He came to my room one time and had a long talk with me about it. Why don't you wear the suit? He asked. It's just not me, I explained. I'm sorry, but I just don't feel right wearing it. We went back and forth on the subject, and he was clearly frustrated. I could tell he was mad at me for feeling that way about the bunny suit, and I felt bad because I didn't want to disappoint him. Him. But while I know it's an honor, it's not my style. And it was important for me to be me as much as possible. Particularly when we were filming, I had an image I wanted to portray, and the bunny suit just didn't fit it.

[B]

I didn't know what to do with that. I had. I, I, I, like, I. To a certain extent. Okay. Like, I sort of. But, like, out of all the things that Kendra pushed back on, it does strike me as notable that she pushed back on the call. Like, she didn't push back on, like, this dude in a lineup, but she pushed back on the costume. So, I mean, again, okay, so as.

[A]

We said, after two and a half Years. Half goes upstairs one day without the other girls, and it got rid of all the tension. She says, you'd be surprised at how not getting naked with a guy at the same time can do wonders for a friendship.

[B]

I thought that was funny.

[A]

Now, Carol, this is where Zach comes back. Zach comes back because he is the boyfriend she never broke up with.

[B]

He's been waiting outside the whole time.

[A]

He was, like, you said, 11, but I wasn't sure what year it's 1115. And it's been three years.

[B]

He's like, can I have a sandwich?

[A]

He's got a really long beard. His car is just full of Mountain Dew bottles full of piss. Poor Zach. Not poor Zach. Zach starts posting revenge porn. He starts putting pictures from when she was 17 on MySpace, naked pictures of her. And then Hef just makes it disappear. And I have to know, like, how Hef made it disappear. But we'll never know. She says to Hef she's worried about what will happen to her after the show ends. And he says, you'll never be on the streets, darling. As long as I'm here, you'll be just fine. Which does make me wonder if she was in his will.

[B]

Yeah, there are moments where he genuinely does seem like a version of generous. Like, he pays for all of her classes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She is allowed to, like, go do things. She's allowed to make her own money. And I should note there are media companies that don't allow their employees to do freelance work on the sides. So, like, it is notable that he allowed them to earn money and keep it in their own private accounts. I guess that's a low bar. But as someone who has been researching like, like, high control communities for the last few years, that is actually a very beautiful thing. And all three women were able to basically, like, establish financial security while they were living with him. For Kendra, I mean, I guess it could have happened in another way, but there are also a lot of other outcomes for her where she would not have had that stability. So I will give her that.

[A]

I wonder how many women have left that building with no money saved and with, yeah, no options afterwards. It is interesting, though, like, about the freedoms of it all, because she starts doing these club appearances, and he has this security guard named Joe who is in charge of her, who later, she's like, he's actually less of a security guard and more of, like, an old guy that Seth's friend sort of makes me like, should we have been scared of Joe, or could you have somehow gotten around him? But mostly he's there to make sure that the girls remain celibate, which is also this weird thing where, like, Hef's not fucking them, but they're not allowed to fuck other people.

[B]

Yeah. And when you think. Think about Kendra, like, these are, I don't want to say like, peak fertility years, but, like, these are significant years where you're a young person and you want to be with other young people. Like, you want to have friends, you want to date. Kendra was also, like, very sexually active.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She probably would have wanted to have sex with a lot of people and have fun while she's young.

[A]

She probably was having sex with other people. She says, like, I saw guys from time to time. Like, she doesn't explicitly say it, but I'm sure she did. Right. Right.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. To your point about Hugh Hefner not knowing what an orgasm is, at no point does Kendra say that she has ever had an orgasm. So, Kendra, if you're listening to this, please clarify that.

[A]

Tell us. Tell us, please, that you've gotten there. So she, as we said, she's making money. She buys a condo. She buys a second house. She says, buying those houses made me feel powerful. Fame was cool, but power was better. She's discovering something that men have known.

[B]

For a long, long time. Seriously, she's like, I want a hamster of my own.

[A]

I could be the guinea pig. Me be guinea pig. She buys her mom boobs and a facelift. And then she also says her mom starts going into chat rooms and talking shit to teenagers on Kendra's behalf.

[B]

Hysterical, insane.

[A]

She gets asked to be in an Eminem music video and then gets in a fight with him. Now, later, she goes on celebrity rap superstar and Too Short helps her put her rap together. She has, like, a deep love for hip hop and sports. These are, like, the through lines of her personality. And she writes her own rap. It makes her feel really good. She said everyone in the audience respected me for what I'd done. I'd never felt so good in my life.

[B]

Eek, eek is what I have to say to that.

[A]

These are the moments. Now she's four years into filming the show. She's feeling antsy. Kendra's got that itch. She's ready for what's next. She's financially stable. She's restless. And on March 27, 2008, at the Playboy Golf Classic, she meets NFL player Hank Paul. Basket changes her life.

[B]

Hank.

[A]

Hey, Hank. Now, do you remember, like, loving Hank when you were watching the show or in the Post show.

[B]

I actually don't remember Hank at all.

[A]

This was my, like, memory of him was like, she was wild and crazy, and he was just, like, really quiet and in the background.

[B]

Oh, well. Even the worst man on the planet would get an unbelievable edit from a reality television show.

[A]

So true. Very true. So Kendra meets Hank. They hit it off. They exchange phone numbers. They start texting. They're talking on the phone all the time. They have this deep connection. She gets invited to throw the first pitch at a Padres game in San Diego, and her whole family is going to be there. Her best friend Brittany, whose house she lived at in a high school, they're all going to be there. She invites Hank, and it's a perfect ruse for her because she has a rule where Joe, the security guard, doesn't go with her if she's going to San Diego because that means she's staying with her mom. So there's, like, high surveillance on Kendra or any of the girlfriends when they're leaving the house. Like, the amount of work she has to do to see this guy. She picks him up from the airport. They drive to a hotel. They fall asleep. He meets her whole family. She doesn't tell her family what's going on. She says, he's a family friend. He comes to this baseball game. She throws out the first pitch, and when they go back to the hotel room afterwards, they get in the bath together and they have sex for the first time. And that is when they become official. And she realizes she wants to have Hank as her boyfriend. She wants to figure out how to do this secret.

[B]

Yeah, There's a lot of clarity with these tubes fucks in Kendra's life.

[A]

You gotta get in the water to really see things clearly. You have to know also, never get into a hotel bathtub. That's also a good takeaway. Someone's had sex. So nasty. This is also, like, a very dark part, is that Kendra's like, Hank is basically, like, down for keeping this a secret. He's no stranger to secrets. His parents grew up in the Deep South. His mom is white. His dad is black. And the way she tells it is, is Hank's mother told her family when she was pregnant that she was not keeping the baby and wasn't in a relationship with the father. The baby would live with the father. And then she kept the relationship secret. And not until her own parents died did she, like, live out openly as Hank's mother married to Hank's father. And Hank is like, that's just how it was.

[B]

That was really Heavy. And that was another moment where I was just so struck by. Everyone has those people in. In your life where they're just like, well, that's just the way it is. Or like. Like, they'll tell you the most horrible thing you've ever heard in your whole life. And they're like, yeah, you know, life can be difficult. And you're like, are you going to have a nervous breakdown or no? And I was kind of curious about that. And then we'll talk about where she is now. But it. It is really. It was really notable to me that he also had had that experience of just being like, that's life.

[A]

Yeah. What can you do? Those were the times. So she and Hank, they're falling deeper in love, and she's realizing, like, they're doing all these things to keep it hidden. They're, like, doing gigs in the same places. And this guy Jo, the security guard, is observing it, but, like, not figuring it out. They're dodging him. And finally she's like, I have to tell people. So she finally tells Bridget. And Bridget is supportive, but is also like, you have to tell Hef at some point. Hank is playing for the Philadelphia Eagles. They're on this getaway in Atlantic City, but they get to go to Hank's apartment in the middle of the night, where she says he had a bunch of Star wars and Transformer toys, which she found endearing. And to me, I find that a deep red flag. He has toys in his boy apartment, and I like that, that he made space for that. I would be like, run.

[B]

Yeah, seriously.

[A]

Ask him how often he changes his sheets. Does he have a top sheet? These are questions that you need.

[B]

But then again, she is 24 at the time, so, like, poor thing. She's so young.

[A]

The beds I was sleeping in when I was 24, none of them had top sheets, I'll tell you that much. And they were probably figurines in a few apartments. And that's because I did improv. That's how that happens. So basically, like, Kendra doesn't do the best job of hiding everything from Jo. Jo finds out. Jo tells Mary. Mary and her big phone. Mary's like, you gotta tell Hef. I'm fondling a dog's testicles. I don't have time. So she has to finally tell Hef. And this is the one part of the entire book that I truly don't believe that this is how this went down. She says, I knocked on his door and he invited me in. He was sitting on his bed looking through photos for the centerfold, and I hopped up next to him. I just. The idea that he's always on his bed doing work.

[B]

Like, I mean, the man did live in a robe. So goals. I think that they really. I don't know if Holly and Bridget did this, but Kendra really goes out of her way to keep the stereotype of Hugh Hefner alive.

[A]

She does.

[B]

I think she's describing the vision of him way more than her personal relationship with him, because it's. It's too perfect. It's too perfectly matched to how he has presented himself to the public, to the point that I'm like, did you send this in for them to approve?

[A]

That's what I'm saying, Caro. Because I feel like she wrote this, like, within a year of her living in the house. I feel like that. Like, the idea that even that they were like, go talk to Hef. And she was like, knock, knock, knock. And he's, like, sitting there doing work on the centerfold. Like, come on in, darling. Like, it just doesn't. She says he's fine with it. He's like, if that's what you want to do, like, that's what you'll do. He's got bigger fish to fry because Holly is now dating Chris angel, mind.

[B]

Freak, and he's heartbroken. Well, this. The other read of this is like, maybe he was totally fine with it because as a reminder, these women didn't mean anything to him.

[A]

Right? He's like.

[B]

Like, there was probably a constant rotation. He's like, yeah, you've been fun, and now you're getting pretty gross and old. Anyways. What are you, 24?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ridiculous time for a 17 year old.

[A]

Exactly. He's like, you're 16 years away from needing a Mamm Mammogram. I can't take this on.

[B]

I cannot take care of you in your old age. The 80 year old says it's.

[A]

What, are you gonna start using retinol soon? Like, I can't. I need girls that don't have skincare routines. We don't have the funds. I want a girlfriend that just uses cetaphil and St. Ives apricot scrub.

[B]

Oh, my God. You just triggered the craziest deja vu for me. Me? I was exactly that age.

[A]

That's what. That's what the routine was. So, like, she breaks up with Hef. He's like, that's okay. I don't care. And she's like, okay, well, I need.

[B]

Like, who are you?

[A]

Yeah, he's. He. Truly. He's like, Mary, Mary has one true love.

[B]

Where am I? Because he's like 90.

[A]

God. I really do. I really do want to know what the Mary and Hef relationship was like, if they ever were a thing. And then, like, she never broke up with him, so she just got stuck there.

[B]

Dude, whatever happened at that mansion, those NDAs were ironclad because we have gotten very little from Kendra about what it was like to live there.

[A]

I wonder if she would give us more. I feel like she would give us more now. And we'll get into. Because we'll get into her now. We'll get into her now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, she's like, I still need to make money. So she walks into the offices of E. And pitches herself for a spin off to Kevin Burns, who produces the Girls Next Door. And he's like, sure, okay. And so she gets a spinoff where she's going to be dating Hank. And this is still, like, she's still living at the mansion. She's like, she's managing this whole new life for herself. She's still living at the mansion, but has broken up with Hef, and he's like, we'll figure it out. You'll finish out the show. Seven months into dating, the most romantic thing in the world happens, and it's that she gets engaged at the Seattle Space Needle.

[B]

Yeah, I. I had a lot of ick about her relationship. I. I want. I wanted things to work out for her genuinely, but the ick I had was. Was like, in. Right. Sitting high in my throat.

[A]

It was in your thyroid.

[B]

I was like, oof, this is not doing it. Which.

[A]

Which part of it was it? The seven months in, like, what. What was it?

[B]

Do you know what it was? It was when she describes them going parasailing in Mexico, and she says, look me in the eyes, and he turns to look at her in the eyes, and the. Then she screams, I love you behind. Having sex in public and going to the dentist. My worst nightmare. So that's number three to round it out. Anyone who says, look me in the eyes is someone I genuinely cannot have in my life. Like, I will look at you when I'm ready. I will look at you and then look away, as humans do. Don't demand prolonged eye contact for me while we're parasailing in Mexico.

[A]

They're in the air.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, so much of their stuff is also like, normie 2000 core of like, we saw this sure ridiculous craft at a. At a street fair in San Diego, and he proposed by putting the ring in this craft. Like to me, yeah, wouldn't do it for me, but, you know.

[B]

And again, in Kendra's defense, she's 24. She's had a series of bad relationships. This guy genuinely does seem very respectful of her. And this is probably the most mature relationship she's ever had. Like, I totally understand why that would seem. Seem like crazy. Stability 100.

[A]

Hank is the first person in her life, in fact, who tells her, like, you don't have to be showing your body. He says to her, right, I can still be Kendra without showing my boobs to everyone. Because her thing is that she loves splashing titties when she does club appearances. And despite her boyfriend pleading her not to, she can't stop herself from doing it. It happens at such a frequency that you would think it's like.

[B]

It's like a tick.

[A]

Yeah. Because she'll be like, I said I wasn't gonna do it. And then it happened again.

[B]

Yeah. Real talk. There's something really sad to me about anyone who grows up like, naturally enjoying their sexuality and then the world finds out and is like, give us your sexuality. And then they just feel like, co opted.

[A]

Yeah. And she's like, I have to give them what they like. It's my job. It's my duty. Yeah. 100. It's really, really sad, dad. Okay, so she's engaged now. So now she really does have to leave the mansion because she's getting married. So she tells Hef, he offers her the mansion for the wedding. And Hank thinks it's weird because it's her ex boyfriend because it is in her defense, she doesn't consider Hef her ex boyfriend.

[B]

She's like, he's my grandpa boyfriend, fucker.

[A]

Dad, you don't understand, honey. He's my guinea pig.

[B]

I want to see Sophia Coppola's rendition of the Playboy Mansion. Here is. That's what I want from this. I want her to do a Kendra Wilkinson rendition a la Kirsten Dunst in Marie Antoine.

[A]

I want Kirsten Dunst to play Kendra.

[B]

Ooh, kinky. I love that.

[A]

That would be really good. Oh, she's so good. So while Hank and Kendra are planning their wedding, she finds out she's pregnant, obviously, because she's been with this guy for nine months. Also, I think proving the fact that Hugh Hefner is not ejaculating does not have sperm because he's been having sex with her for four years and she hasn't gotten pregnant. She does also touch on like the cleanliness issue of the group sex. And she. She's like, I asked around if everyone was clean and they said yes anyway, I would just get up and not think about it.

[B]

Yeah, that's okay. That's another thing. I'm glad that you brought that up again. She will be like, it was totally fine. And then she will reference how drunk she had to make herself to have sex. And that was a moment where I was like, ooh, record scratch. Like, this is actually really upsetting. And she's trying to pretend that this was all above board and it was a great deal. And, like, for a moment, you can start to believe her and be like, oh, she was fully in charge with her love life. She is a sexual person. And then she'll be like, yeah. And then I had to drink so much that I couldn't see straight. And you're like, oh, right. This was hugely exploited.

[A]

You just want to ask the, like, this the next question after. Like, you want. You wanted John Warwick to be like. And how did that make you feel?

[B]

Right, right. Like. Like, yeah. Like, put a hand on her elbow and be like, no. Let's pause for a moment there and let's sit with that feeling.

[A]

She's like, get off of me. I'm breastfeeding.

[B]

She's like, it's 2004. We don't talk like this yet.

[A]

Exactly. That is exactly it. Oh. So, okay, so Hank relents. They do get married. And the most, second most beautiful place in America after the Space Needle, which is the Playboy Mansion, because the romance is in the air. Colin walks her down the aisle. Who's Colin? Her brother.

[B]

Colin is just like a faceless blur, like, could be anyone. He has like a voice with one of those facial screw up recognition things where it's just like, could be anyone.

[A]

We'll never know. We'll never know his story. We're of kind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Her second dance at her wedding goes to Hef. She says, by the time the wedding rolled around, Hank had gotten to know Hef really well and he understood our relationship. Whether I decided to call him an old boyfriend or a father figure or even just a friend, the title didn't matter. Hef cared for me when few others did, and he believed in me when I barely believed in myself on my wedding day. I think it's safe to say that of all people, Hef was the most proud.

[B]

So let's pause for a second and think about. Let's just. Let's deconstruct that for a moment. Sure.

[A]

Let's get in there.

[B]

The father daughter dance at Kendra Wilkinson's wedding was with Kendra and Hugh Hefner, the man who was boning her, paying her under the table to live at the mansion, sending other older men to follow her around to her appearances so that she could not hook up with anyone else, and deeply in control of how much she ate, what her body looked like, like, where she went, what she did, what jobs she took on and what classes she went to. And that was her father, daughter, dance with this 80 something year old man at his house. At his house. At his fucking house.

[A]

At his house. Where he probably paid for everything and decided everything.

[B]

It's so funny to me that these were like sexual Playboy bunnies, because it's straight out of Christian fundamentalism. Like, is this why you brought me on? I'm seeing the connections. I'm seeing the Venn diagram here. Okay.

[A]

I had a feeling. I had a feeling you would have like some nuance and take.

[B]

I was like, either she thinks I'm into a lot of porn, or this is about Christian fundamentalism. And we will see in the conversation.

[A]

We got there. We got there, babe. We did it, Jo. Yes, it is. It is very, very, very odd though. And the reverence and respect she gives him is. Is bizarre. A bizarre. Anyone who's friends with an ex, this is. It's already always like a little bit odd. This is. It's not an. Also just an ex. It's an employer. It's a. Yeah. It's an abuser. It's. It's so fucked up. It's so weird. This marriage was doomed. Doomed.

[B]

Yeah. And I. That's when I get to this memoir. Cause we. I mean, I'm sure we have a little bit left, but like, this is almost where the memoir ends. And I. This feeling when I was getting to the end of the memoir being like, she literally like, put her voice on the record so early. Like, she could have done this memoir so much later and at least had her voice added like this. No, this is my perspective of what happened. But she's like. It's almost like she's giving her witness, like, record or whatever. I don't know how. What, like the FBI metaphor is too many hamster metaphors. But it's just like really sad to me that she reinforces the general perception of what's going on because it's so obvious that's not what actually happened.

[A]

Yeah. It feels like she's like, very much still part of their, like, propaganda PR machine and she is trying to stay in their good graces because she might need Them. Because she might need them still.

[B]

Right? They're her whole Rolodex. I mean, they are her LinkedIn.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, because of them, she has the spinoff show. She has this whole new path. Like, she's not going to bite the hand. Not at this point. Not when she's 24. They get married. She has to bop around between Philly and then Indianapolis because of Hank's football career. I want to get to a huge fight they had when she's pregnant and when she's talking about her pregnancy hormones. Carol, I have to know what you think about this. She says, I get loud and forceful sometimes, but when I was pregnant, I was more demanding than usual. One night, I went out to dinner with Hank and we got into a huge fight over Obama. I told him I liked Obama, but that I didn't understand all the school high hype because it didn't seem like he'd done anything to change the country, yet he tried to change my opinion. And that's a big no. No. We were yelling back and forth while the whole restaurant was watching. You'll never change my opinion. I yelled, and I meant it. Don't get me started on OJ or whether Michael Jackson touched those little boys. We will fight about that all day.

[B]

This paragraph fucking sent me. I'm like, wait, what do you think about O.J. i need to know.

[A]

I don't even know. I need to know.

[B]

Like, I'm not. That's. No one's surprised that Kendra's a Republican. Like, this is, like, cut and dry. I mean, look at her hair color. That's classic. That's classic magazine. But. But, like, that was the funniest page in the whole book because overall, it's like the whole memoir is totally separate from reality. And then she just drops in at the end and she's like, yeah. So for anyone who's still reading this book, fuck Obama. Go OJ And Michael Jackson did not do it. And you're like. Like, wait, what? What did you just say? And she's like, nothing. Let's talk about my baby being born. Nothing. Keep reading.

[A]

John Warwick is reading the. The copy once it's published, and he's like, fudge. I thought I took that out.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, hey, Kendra, this just feels kind of superfluous to the narrative, and we don't really have it. And she's like, no, keep it in. I need people to know what I think about Obama.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I need it. I need it. Oh, she also said that she has A weird fear of belly buttons, which I also just feel like is, like.

[B]

That'S, to me, one of the funniest.

[A]

Things, the most relatable, stupid human things I could ever think of.

[B]

It's, like, of equal intellectual legitimacy and equal amount on the page as her perspective on Obama again, 2010. Which means they were writing it essentially right after he won.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is probably, like, the most popular Obama ever was, like, right at the beginning. And so it's like, from the start, Kendra was like, no, we can't. Not interested. And then she was like, also, I'm not comfortable with my belly button, so. So thank you for reading. Thank you for purchasing this book. I just. I. I need to know more. I wish we could get another 30 pages of her. Of her political and cultural inclinations.

[A]

Like, you know, there was an argument at the publishing house where they were like, should we say where she lands on Michael Jackson and O.J. and they're like, no, no, no, no.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

We can't do that.

[B]

I mean, it's an. It's like an immaculate sentence. You really don't know where she's gonna.

[A]

Go with it really is one of the most expertly crafted. Like, we gotta give it up to John on this one. One.

[B]

Yeah. Like, when James Baldwin said that you need to write a sentence as clean as a bone, he was talking about that sentence that Kendra Wilkinson wrote about O.J. and Michael Jackson.

[A]

It's so good. She'll fight about that all day. That's what she says. Kendra, on December 10, welcomes their child, little Hank, via C section because little Hank's head was too damn big. And quote, I didn't want my vagina all tore up like that. That. It's like the last three pages of the book, they were like, we'll let Kendra write the last three pages.

[B]

It's so true. All of her zany. It's a reward.

[A]

It's our little treat for getting through all of this. All of this information. She performs. She does, like, a club appearance postpartum. And she's like. She's not sure how to handle it. You know when you're like, first become a parent and you're out in the world, you're like, I've changed. And no one can tell that I've changed. And if you're a person who. Who hosts club appearances, you just, like, don't know how to do it anymore. And she's used to saying, what's up, motherfuckers? Let's get drunk tonight. But Instead, she pivots and she says, mama got out of the house tonight. Let's celebrate. So she handles it very well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Our book ends. Hank and Kendra end in Los Angeles with baby Hank, and she's feeling really optimistic. She does mention that their marriage is perhaps having the impact that most marriages go through when you have a new child, which is they're struggling to find time to get, but they're working through it. And she's feeling very optimistic. She's feeling really empowered by motherhood. And this is how I'd like to end, with this beautiful quote from Kendra. But just because I'm getting a whole new set of responsibilities and will be facing challenges as a mom doesn't mean I will stop living. After all, if you don't go out and continue to explore the world around you, you become like a caged bunny. And as you know by now, I am not, nor will I ever be, a bunny.

[B]

It's like the one moment where you're like, oh, did you actually have a bad time? This is like when you're in a fiction writing workshop, and they're like, yeah, so get rid of every paragraph but the last one and then use that to start the short story. I'm like, oh, so you had a really bad time, and it's going to take you, like, eight to eight to 12 years to process it and then begin to talk about what happened. So did you find the People article about her talking?

[A]

Yes, Caro. Okay, so we're going to get into the January 2024 People interview where Carol, do you want to set the scene of where she is in this interview?

[B]

Yes. So she is on a beach, right?

[A]

Yeah. She's in the O.C.

[B]

Yeah. I'm curious what you think about this, because I looked this up. I almost didn't, because I knew we were going to talk about it, but then I was like, I need to know if she's still with Hank. And spoiler alert, it's dark.

[A]

Dark.

[B]

It is really dark. She gave an interview. Yeah. Like, a little over a year ago and basically recants. Everything she said in this memoir are.

[A]

Such a bummer to find out after you close the last page of the memoir.

[B]

Seriously. I was like, oh, it's like, pretty peppy. But then she's like, I'm not a bunny and I never will be. And then it's like, eight years later, she's like, I was clinically depressed. I can't believe I lived in the mansion. I, like, can't believe I spent my twenties like that she's, like, having serious mental health issues and has divorced. I mean, it's really sad.

[A]

It's very sad. She said there. I pulled a few quotes where she said. She says, I really got into deep regret. Deep. I struggled with depression before, and at the Mansion, I drank a lot. I was there for the partying. Okay, let's just be real. I was not there for Hugh Hefner to be my boyfriend. Why did I have sex with Hugh Hefner at that age? Why did I do that? She asks now. Why did I go to the Mansion in the first place? Why did I get big boobs? Why am I a sex symbol? Why did I bleach blonde my hair? Why did I do this to myself? Why did I. I see loopholes in my life where I'm trying to correct now so my daughter doesn't feel have to experience what I did at a young age. I don't want my daughter sexualized like I was.

[B]

Kendra, get rid of your ghostwriter. That's a really beautiful paragraph. You write your next book.

[A]

Write it. I know. I want to know from Kendra now so much more than I wanted to know from Kendra immediately after.

[B]

Yeah. And it's notable that she gave that interview now that Hugh Hefner is dead.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I think that that's also part of it. I'm surprised we haven't gotten a big documentary about Hugh Hefner. I feel like that was maybe going to come out during MeToo, and now we are in very much in a post me to reactionary era. But, yeah, I was really sad for Kendra, and it wasn't surprising, but it was very much heartbreaking the way she talked about just being like, where was everyone? How did that happen? And it's notable that throughout the book, Kendra says her mom becomes very supportive and almost like, proactively tells her to stay at the Playboy Mansion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being like, you've got such a good gig, like, don't leave that.

[A]

This is a thing that I've noticed. Do you watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives?

[B]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

Unfortunately, you probably have to for. For your lifesty.

[B]

Yeah, for my. For my beat.

[A]

There is this thing of these moms that go from, like, shaming their daughters about their choices and then seeing how their choices become monetized, and suddenly they are benefiting from the money. They're getting facelifts and boob jobs that their daughters are paying for, and they're like, no, no, no. Stay doing the thing that's not good for you. Cause it's working out for me now.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean there's also the beat of people having nervous breakdowns. I mean, what's her name? Jen. On this most recent season, it was like hard to watch. I stopped watching season two because I was like, dude, this is so exploitative. No one should be filming her right now. And I feel the same way about Kendra. She was so young.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. There was really nowhere for her to access support, like culturally. There was nothing for her to grab on. I think culturally, now we have so much therapy speak and access to these conversations and I don't know, she got big time screwed. And I would love for her to write another memoir.

[A]

100. I would buy her memoir. She's now living in the O.C. she and Hank are co parenting. She's got two kids. They're like in high school and middle school. She's a realtor. She's asking people if you're buying a house in LA or the OC Hit me up. So hit her up.

[B]

You know, deep side, deep heavy sigh. World wary sigh like, man, that was. Whoa.

[A]

I don't know what was bigger that sigh or the amazing caftan she's wearing in the video on people.com during her interview.

[B]

Yeah. And. And like the people photoshoot, it's like giving rejuvenation vibes. And I'm like, dude, she's talking about like a sustained mental health crisis. Like this is not appropriate. It's very upsetting.

[A]

I know. I hope she's okay.

[B]

Love her. Genuinely rooting for her. Never stopped rooting for her. The memoir was enjoyable. I hope that she continues to channel that female rage because that is the most replenishable resource that we have.

[A]

It's literally all we have. And I can, I can find mine in a blink of an.

[B]

Yeah, I could locate mine in art.

[A]

No, it's no problem. So we end every episode. Carol with the book Dell Test. So I have to ask you these questions. Carol, was the author vulnerable in sharing their truth?

[B]

No. I don't know. I mean like a little bit in the childhood section.

[A]

Right. I said like, I feel like.

[B]

No, I, I enjoyed it, but I don't think she was capable. She was too young.

[A]

Too young.

[B]

When she finished this book, she had like a one month old. So like I just don't think she was capable of being vulnerable in the way ways that I would have needed.

[A]

She had not a developed prefrontal cortex. Is that the right word?

[B]

She couldn't even rent a car.

[A]

She couldn't rent a car. She was postpartum and she hadn't even experienced her Saturn's return. Seriously, My lord. But, yeah, I felt like she was as vulnerable as you could be without any self reflection at the age of 24. Cara, was the book entertainment entertaining?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it made me sad, though. It made me sad and entertained.

[B]

Yeah, it was like, entertaining in the way that, like, a body horror film.

[A]

Is like a murder podcast.

[B]

Yeah, it was entertaining in the way that, like, the substance was entertained.

[A]

Oh, I loved it. And I hated it the whole time. Last question. Did reading it elevate your life?

[B]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Deep waste of time, Joe.

[B]

Deep waste of time.

[A]

Time.

[B]

I mean, like, thanks for having me. I enjoyed the conversation. But like, no, no, no, I won't be taking any of this with you.

[A]

No, it did give me. It gave me compassion. Like, we historically look back at Monica Lewinsky in a way where we, like, wrote her off and we're so flippant about this young person at the time, where it also helps, like, give me compassion for being like 18 and 20 at that time and being like, why is my body not like that? Why is my hair not like that? Why is my life not like that? Like, I'll never. That and sort of like just knowing that nobody at that time that was a woman was happy with themselves.

[B]

Yeah. And I will say I do always love a reminder of. Or I. I always love a kind of time machine moments go back to the early 2000s, because it does always make me feel optimistic about how much better things are today for women, which I am not saying lightly, like, we are going through a pretty, pretty hard time. But it is really important to remember, like, just how poorly really we culturally treated women. And we really haven't totally regressed back to that. Like, again, watch some tabloid watch like E. True Hollywood Story or any of those things to see how we treated women, and you will realize just how far we have come in, like 20 years. And I do take that as a pretty big win.

[A]

Yeah, we have. We gotta take them where they come.

[B]

It's all we got.

[A]

Carol, you are the best. Where can people find you?

[B]

Thank you. So I do have a podcast, Diabolical Lies, and I have a book coming out. And frankly, I care about those more than my social media accounts. So I will just say follow my podcast and pre order my book if you feel so inclined.

[A]

You have to read this book. Can I give up the logline for the book?

[B]

Sure, sure, sure.

[A]

And you'll tell me if I did it? If this is how I've been describing the book to myself.

[B]

I'm so ashamed. I'm blushing so much. Yes.

[A]

And we can take it out. We can take it out if you hate it. But this is how I describe it. This is a novel about a tradwife, a tiktoking trad who wakes up and finds herself in the 1800s and is like, oh, fuck yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's it. Done.

[A]

There you go. It's so good. It's so fun. Carol, you're the best. Your podcast Diabolical Lies is so smart. Support her podcast. It is a great $8. It is like the best monthly $8 you can spend aside from this podcast.

[B]

So much.

[A]

So happy I met you. You're the first person whose DMs I've ever slid in into and now I'm gonna feel restlessly confident about it. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God, girl. Get it. Go after bigger fish. Man, you snagged me quick, so get after it.

[A]

Well, you're about to explode, so we're happy to have you. Thank you for being here.

[B]

Thank you so much. This was truly a pleasure. And I apologize for the hamster side journey.

[A]

No, no, you should be apologizing for saying that you were Team Zack T. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up.

[B]

There's a free tier.

[A]

You can join. Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.