← Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
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Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing Lily Allen's 2018 memoir titled My Thoughts exactly and what I consider her latest memoir in the Music her new album, West End Girl. Now we are going to thread some needles, tie some knots, untie some knots. We're going to go deep. We're pulling in highlights from the Internet discourse that has become its own additional reading. And we're going in hard. Now Lily Allen, for anyone who doesn't know, is a huge UK pop star who broke out in 2006 early 2000s. She's had a career, you know, this whole time, put out many albums. I know the British cookies relate to Lily very differently than the American cookies and I think it's fair to say this album is a comeback and it is getting global attention. And if I could give a headline to this episode, it would be something a cookie DM'd me once, which is, you know, a contains multitudes and we are going to be getting into all of those multitudes and the surrounding multitudes like the Architectural Digest tour of her ex husband's bachelor pad. And you know, how his apartment had two copies of John Quixote that had, you know, never been touched which is an important detail. And so listen, we're getting into all of it. I'm very worried. This episode will take three hours. How will we ever cut it down? And before we dive in, please note, I want you to take care while listening. We have warnings for substance use, discussion assault. We're also going to be pulling some language from the tabloids and the book when discussing Lily's story. So I want a trigger warning for some ableist and transphobic language that are part of a larger story we get into. So always take care while listening. Let's dive in. My guest today, our niche Internet correspondent Katie Rosen, frequent guest of the pod, who today will also, I think, be the attorney defending open relationships and non monogamy. Hi, Katie. Hello, Katie. Is that fair to say that you'll.
- [03:28]
C
Be taking on the defense of that today?
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B
Yes.
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D
I don't think this album did a great job of that and that's why I'm here.
- [03:34]
B
Okay, good, good, good, good. Now, my other guest from across the pond, not British nationality, but she lived in London for many, many years. And we knew we needed an expert not from America. For this episode, it is Kathy from the podcast Cinemale, who was also like Lily Allen. Born in 1985 and just shy of 5 foot 2. Kathy's podcast Cinemale is so great. She covered every episode of and just like that, plus many more film. You have to check it out. Hi, Kathy.
- [04:03]
C
Hello. Thank you for having me.
- [04:06]
B
So you're truly just shy of 5 foot 2.
- [04:08]
C
Yeah, I relate to Lily.
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B
Has that song become your album? Like you're. You're like, this is my song.
- [04:13]
C
It really has. And the album came out on my 40th birthday and it just hit really hard. I don't know why it came out.
- [04:19]
B
On your 40th birthday. Wow. Yeah. And she's. You guys really are. Are you guys born in the same month?
- [04:24]
C
No, no, not same. Just. I mean, I didn't realize that she. She was the same age. I always thought she was younger than me, actually.
- [04:30]
B
I love that. And I think almost turning 40 is a the album. And in addition to Kathy and Katie, and in addition to all of us reading the memoir and the album and the Internet, our producer Christina Lopez has put together an entire research doc. So I've asked Christina to be on the mic because I know she's going to have important tidbits. And dare I say, Christina, will you also be a defense attorney for open relationships and non monogamy today?
- [04:55]
A
Yes. Though I will say I'm a practitioner and not a Scholar.
- [04:59]
B
I think that is well said. Okay, so the tldr for anyone who I don't know, I think it's hard to not have heard this story already, but the quick headline is Lily Allen wrote an album about her husband, David Harbour, an actor on Stranger Things, how he asked her for an open marriage when she started to get successful as an actor. And then he broke the rules of that marriage, cheated on her, and fell in love with someone else. And she discovered it. Lily released this album just as the Stranger Things finale press tour was beginning. Amazing timing, Lily. Now, Lily Met David in 2019. Ish. The memoir she wrote came out in 2018. It covered her childhood through her breakout as a pop star, through her first marriage, which ended for many reasons, one of them being that Lily cheated on him with female escorts that she hired while on tour, but also with, like a dude who was working on the album. I'm not sure why that part doesn't make the headlines. So basically we have a text from Lily, the book, and then the album kind of covering like every single year up until this point. So that's just the high level headline. I want to break this conversation into four buckets. Okay. First bucket, we'll talk about how the memoir is a companion piece with the album and some surprising highlights from the book. Second bucket, the heterosexual pipeline of open marriage to divorce and the discussion we must have about open marriage versus cheating. Third bucket, the album itself and specific song highlights. And fourth bucket, the Internet discourse that followed and how it elevated or did it elevate the art that was put forth. So those are the buckets. But first, I want to ask you all, what was your most surprising highlight from the memoir that felt like a companion piece to the album? Let's start with you, Kathy.
- [06:47]
C
Oh, good question. I read this memoir, like less than 24 hours. It's like the album you just can't stop. I think the vitriol towards her dad was fascinating. I knew they didn't get on, but I was taken aback by how vitriolic it was. And I think the chapter around Lester feels like such a prelude to this album where she talks about how early she developed codependency and how she'd do anything to make her partner stay. So I felt like that worked very well with the album. Yes.
- [07:13]
B
And how the very first album she wrote is about that relationship, Lester and the song Smile. She said she wrote it in like 10 minutes, which hilarious. While singing over a Britney Spears song. And it does really speak to, like, her. Perhaps her best work is Writing about relationships. Because then other albums that aren't about these relationships, like, Don't do as well. Is that your takeaway at all?
- [07:34]
C
Yeah. The one she wrote about the breakup of her marriage as well was so good. Like, she says she writes a lot. She doesn't like a lot of what she's written, and when it comes from a place like this, she can bang it out in, like, 10 days. She wrote West End Girl. Like, it's insane. So, yeah, I think just her letting go of the relationship demons and she gives you so many intimate details is just. It's amazing. And I think I felt bad for David Harbour at first when I heard the songs. But after reading the memoir, I think, well, if you married someone who wrote this memoir and if you read it, you should have known what was coming.
- [08:04]
B
I'm literally like, sir, did you not.
- [08:05]
A
Read the book A Warning for Travis Kelce, maybe?
- [08:08]
C
Yeah.
- [08:09]
B
Yeah. I mean, Travis Kelsey, you should know. And also, I really liked, just as, like, writer, artist's side, that, like, you can write something amazing very fast. And sometimes writing fast is, like, something that comes naturally. It doesn't always have to take, like, years and years to be a masterpiece. Katie, what was, like, a companion piece highlight from the memoir and the album for you.
- [08:29]
D
Early in the book, she kind of, like, foreshadows all of her relationships, talking about being codependent, and she says, I'll say what I think my partner wants to hear to make sure they'll stay with me. I'll do anything to make sure they won't leave. Sometimes they leave anyway.
- [08:43]
B
That.
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D
That is. I feel like that's the thesis statement. Yeah.
- [08:47]
B
Especially when in the album, he's like, hey, can we have an open relationship? And she's like, sure.
- [08:52]
D
Yeah. Well, she's like, I don't want to. It feels terrible, but. O. Yeah, yeah.
- [08:57]
B
Such a good point. Christina was like, should I listen to the memoir, too? I was like, no, you're doing enough work. And I'm really afraid that. You did Christina.
- [09:05]
A
I did.
- [09:08]
C
Christina.
- [09:09]
B
You do too much pressure in a.
- [09:10]
A
Dark room for three days, like, researching this. I have, like. It's like that Charlie Day gif. That's like, he's smoking in a room. He's like, you got a conspiracy board? And it's just. Yeah, I have, like, strings on paper and, like. Yeah. Tying out the timeline. Biggest thing that struck me while I was listening to it is how much she was trying to get ahead of criticism or critique or answer critique, especially around her being a Nepo baby and like how much her parents involvement had in her success. And when you're creating from that viewpoint of like trying to cut off criticism, what does it do for their creation and how much of that was reflective in the album? Was some of this to try to get ahead of whatever gossip magazines were writing about their split and she was putting forth like her version of events before it came out of her control of her narrative. I don't know, but that was something that I was thinking about a lot when she was like, writing things that she anticipates people critiquing her for. Does that make sense?
- [10:09]
B
Yes, that makes complete sense. And it's such a good point. Okay, so I'm just gonna kind of take us through some highlights, please, like add and pull threads. But I want to read just this piece from the intro where she said, I grew up in Glastonbury and the Groucho Club. My dad was part of the Brit pop scene, getting publicly loaded with his friends Damien Hurst, Alex James and others. Drugs and alcohol have been a part of my white noise, always around me for as long as I can remember. I did go to various private schools as well as state ones, but didn't stay at any of them for very long. So I'm not a product of any one particular system or institution. I started singing as a child at school, but discovered music as a young teenager and kept it very close to me from then on. I read, I keep notebooks. I've got a good eye. Okay, this is the part that got me. I collect textiles, love color and decorating or doing up a house doesn't faze me at all. And I said, oh my God, the Architectural Digest lore began so long ago. And then she finishes, I exercise, but I'm not a natural athlete. I'm a swimmer. I'm strong, I can be tough. I've been broken, I'm opinionated. I'm a people pleaser, I'm a narcissist, I'm codependent. I don't always like being alone, though. Equally, there are times where I can't bear company. I'm spoiled, I'm needy. I can be a hypocrite. I contradict myself. I can be cold. So I would say one of my headlines from the memoir is that she's so astute in learning the lesson and then immediately forgets it. And to that I want to say there are several times in the memoir where she says that exact sentence, I am a narcissist. And then she blames everything on everyone else and Then seems to forget that she said she was a narcissist. And then I'm like, but I guess that does track with being a narcissist. Like, she's like, I'm a narcissist. I'm like, so, you know, you blame everything on everyone else, but then she actually does blame a lot of things on other people. Then she'll also take accountability while also blaming other people. And then I'm like, but I guess, yeah, you did say it to us in the intro and probably five more times. You wrote like, I'm a narcissist. What did you guys think of, like, the painting of her own traits?
- [12:13]
C
I think the intro, like, you said, Christina, like, I felt like I was reading a legal document with, like, addendums on it. She's just. It felt like arse covering. But also, I love Lily Allen so much. I just have this love for her. So I kind of read it with a smile on my face. But I feel like if I was in her family, like, if I was. Alfie, who. Poor fella, keeps getting mentioned here. He's got a song about him. He must just be like, lily, please stop. Make it stop. Yeah, I think the whole introduction was interesting. It was also, like, bit of a theme of the podcast. She's talking about women's stories and how they need to be. But, like, Lily Allen has been dragged through the gutter and, like, you guys wouldn't have been around the British press, like, particularly in the naughties. And then she mentions the Leveson inquiry, which came. Which was the investigation into the tabloids in Britain and how unethical they were. And, you know, they were recording people and doing terrible things. She was harassed by the tabloids. And it would bring up so much defensiveness, I feel. So I understand why she wrote from this place, but it's. I haven't read a lot of memoirs, but I imagine this is an unusual enough introduction. Is it, to be that defensive so early on?
- [13:16]
B
It definitely felt like this was written for the tabloids and what they had done to her and kind of like it felt very British in that kind of pocket. Like, almost like if you pick this up, not realizing how badly she's been dragged and treated, I think similar to the way Britney Spears was treated in our early aughts press. If you didn't know all of that, you'd sort of been like, why are you yelling at me? But you're not. She's yelling at the tabloids. And, yeah, like, even though she's like, I'm a narcissist. Did I have the best time reading this memoir? Yes.
- [13:48]
A
There's some similarities here, I think to like the way Leah Remini's memoir opened where it was just kind of laying herself bare of all her sins, everyone in her proximity sins, because that was going to be the leverage that Scientology used against her to discredit her story. But in Lily's memoir, I don't know how genuine it comes off as like I'm presenting you with all my foibles and these are actually them versus like these are the ones that I've already processed that I think the press will have a say over or what people talk about me versus I'm genuinely revealing myself.
- [14:21]
B
Yes, I agree. And I would say one word for this memoir is unprocessed. She wrote this in a tornado. I don't want to say it should not have been written in this moment because I'm glad we have it. But this isn't a she wasn't in a stable place writing this memoir. Another highlight want to talk about is how much of a mirror David Harbour, her now ex husband, is to her dad, Keith Allen. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I did it. I found a pair of pants that I like so much. I ordered a pair in every single color and those pants are from Quince and it is their ultra pont extra wide leg stretch pants. They have these pants in just like normal wide leg and a different cut. But I love their extra wide leg. They're so well made. I got them in brown, navy and black and they have different inseams so I was able to order a 32 inch inseam because I'm tall. I love it. Quince has it all. They have $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear, denim that doesn't come out of style, silk tops, skirts that add polish. It feels very chic, just like a very chic set of basics. You can also get blankets for your couch. You can get new slippers by working directly with ethical top tier factories. Quince skips the middleman and offers prices for 50% less than similar brands. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com glamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com glamorous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com glamorous. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Keith Allen's a comedian, but David is, like, a very funny actor. And they kind of gave me the same vibes where Keith Allen, she talks about her dad, how, like, all he wanted to do is be rich and successful, even though he's a socialist, which I feel like could be an entire other podcast about. One of his comedy bits was to get on stage naked and not address it for 12 minutes. And that, like, I don't. I'm projecting, but I can see David Harbour doing that. Like, just, like, very confident, like, hilarious comedy. But also, Lily's mom leaves Keith after rampant, horrific cheating on her. And she marries the person I'm sure of, Keith Nightmares, which is Harry Enfield, who is actually a successful comedian, which, like, what a nightmare for Keith Allen. But that does mean that Lily's stepdad was, like, this successful guy, and her mom was a movie producer. And then also her dad, Keith Allen feels like the David harbor that she ends up marrying. I don't know. What do you guys think?
- [17:12]
D
Well, I feel like she marries both.
- [17:14]
B
Okay, tell me.
- [17:15]
D
Well. Cause she first marries the, like, posh guy Sam, and then she marries. And then she's like, now I'm making the mature decision.
- [17:23]
B
I know.
- [17:23]
D
I'm marrying my dad.
- [17:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, okay, this will take us into the nepotism we have to talk about. Nepotism comes up so much in this book. She's, like, really, really, really upset that people have called her a nepo baby. And I would say the way she framed the book was pretty genius because I was so on her side. I was like, wow, how dare they do this to you? And then she'd be like, yeah. So I was like, in the movie Elizabeth starring Cate Blanchett, but Cate Blanchett wasn't famous yet. Okay. She's like. And, you know, because my mom produced Elizabeth, and, like, here's me on set. And then she'd be like, this is so ridiculous. Here's how I made my own way. My dad did get me my very first record deal when I was 17. However, it ended and it was bad, and they were gonna sue me. And then she is literally what she says is in the Priory, which I believe she was talking about a mental health rehabilitation center. And she's 17 years old. When she is in there, they call her and they're like, we're not gonna sue you anymore. And then she can pursue her career again. I think she Thinks when they say Nepo baby, they're like, and everything was easy for you? And she was like, no, it was still hard. But therefore she can't see that literally everything was given to her as a teenager.
- [18:35]
D
And when she starts talking about Glastonbury and she's like, oh, yeah, we went every year and we like, it's like a family thing. All of my friends were there and we were all there and we had a big tent and I could just run around. It's like, well, that's not a common experience for every teenager.
- [18:50]
C
Her dad comes across as a total loser in the book, but he is actually quite famous and very successful and is still in movies and stuff. So her dad's really famous. Yeah.
- [19:00]
B
She was like, keith Allen sucks dick. Keith Allen sucks and he's not successful. That's what she said.
- [19:09]
C
He is successful. Now, had I ever heard of him before I heard of Lily Allen? No. And I imagine most people my age hadn't. When she came out, it was all Keith Allen's daughter. Keith Allen's daughter. And I feel like that would have been really annoying. So I understand the annoyance, but I think she does acknowledge it. And it's interesting. Zoe Kravitz comes up later because she's somebody who gets so angry about the nipple bit and kind of won't admit it. Whereas Lily Allen will say, yes, it was nepotism. But also, I worked hard. I think she balances it better than a lot of them do. She's acknowledging it just enough that we'll kind of, you know, because she's incredibly talented. Like, we can see that. So it's not like the nepotism got her where she is, but it obviously gave her the step into the world that a normal person wouldn't have access to. Like, I think we could talk about that all night. It's so interesting.
- [19:51]
A
But I think the thing and some Nepo baby adjacent actors are starting to wake up to it and acknowledge the privilege that they have. But, like, getting in the room is the hardest part for most people. Most people who try do not even get in the room. And they're born in it or around.
- [20:05]
B
The room or near the room.
- [20:07]
A
Yes. Or even meet other people who have been in those rooms for decades and years. They grow up around these people who have access to all of the rooms.
- [20:16]
D
Yeah. Or, you know, in her case, abandoned in a room beside the room as a child all the time.
- [20:23]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:24]
C
It's.
- [20:24]
B
It's really Hamilton's, the room where it happens to pull in another Musical reference? No. I think what kills me every time about this discourse from Nepo babies is that the amount of privilege inherent in their brain doesn't allow them to even fucking realize they are privileged. Because no one ever said you didn't work hard. No one said you didn't suffer. No one said your parents were good. No one said your parents were nice to you. No one said you were cared for. No one said you were loved. Nepotism is just a foot in the door. And, like, I feel like they don't even have the wherewithal to realize how big of a gift that is, because it is still so hard. It's like, so then fucking imagine how hard it is for people who didn't give a shitty album from their dad when they were 17. And I just feel like people can't even see that. And it. I have to say, it's really, really infuriating. I kept wanting to be like, lily, drop it. We don't care. You're very talented. Please move on. But she's. She's really mad about it.
- [21:20]
C
And because she loves dropping details, which I love about her, she gives just such explicit details and everything in her life. Like, she drops at one point that she never paid for parking and that she racked up ten grand in parking.
- [21:31]
B
Fines and gave it to her mom to deal with.
- [21:34]
C
Yeah. Like, that. To me, that was actually the biggest moment where I went, oh, my God. The privilege. Everything before that, I'm like, that's circumstantial. That happened around you. But this is, like, 10 grand. And also, we're talking 20 years ago. That's probably, like, 30 grand now.
- [21:46]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [21:47]
C
And that was insane. I don't know why she put that in the book, but that's why I love how unfiltered she is, because she'll even make herself look really bad.
- [21:53]
B
Oh, 100%. Wait, I want to read. So I love that you brought that up, because she was also like, mom will deal with it, right? And then she did. But then this was another part of the book where it was beautiful. She, like, goes to Ibiza as a teenager and was just like, I'm gonna live in Ibiza. And just, like, fuck DJs and, like, do drugs or whatever. And then this guy George comes up to her and is like, don't go home with that creep. Come home with me. And she's like, oh, okay, I guess I'm gonna fuck you. And she writes, but George didn't come on to me. He took me back to his house and Made up a bed for me on his sofa. When I woke up the next morning, he poured me a cup of coffee. I hope you don't mind, he said, but I went through your phone while you were asleep and called your mom. I told her that I don't think you should be here anymore. I'm gonna take you to the airport and put you on a plane back to London. And that's what he did. And then when she ends the record deal with her dad because it goes poorly, she gets a phone call and it's George. And he says, I'm a music manager. Time to write your first album. And he is who helps her write Smile and get her album started. And then when she can't sell it, George just, like, goes away. And then she sells it in other places. But I was like, wait a minute. That's a fairy tale. Is that not a fairy tale? A great one. Like, I can't believe the good man exists in this memoir.
- [23:04]
D
I know just the one.
- [23:06]
B
Just the one. Well, and also Seb Chu, who we have to talk about. Seb Chu was an early boyfriend who is, like, a huge music industry guy who, when she couldn't get signed in her first record, she would be like, well, it was because of my name and because I was Seb Choo's girlfriend.
- [23:26]
C
Her success, I think, took people by surprise because a lot of it is just like a Garbi young woman singing about Tesco bags in London and about her brother smoking too much weed. I don't know that when people heard it, they realized how good it was. I wonder if she was dismissed maybe because of who her dad was. I don't know. And I could.
- [23:44]
B
No, but that's what she said. Impossible. Impossible. It's what Tori Spelling wrote in her book. I succeeded despite my last name. I'm like, tori. No, Tori, absolutely not. These things go hand in hand. Okay, let's talk about the song she wrote about Alfie. So I'm reading this. I'm like, oh, she wrote a song about Alfie that she says she regrets because it was, like, kind of mean or whatever. Then I read the lyrics, and it's like, alfie, you fucking loser, you're such a loser. And I was like, okay, what? It was pretty intense to record that, even if you didn't know at the time your album would blow up. And then I was not expecting Alfie to be Theon Greyjoy in. And I said, what? And also, Theon Greyjoy's entire storyline is, like, being the shitty loser of his Family. And I was like, did they do this on purpose?
- [24:33]
C
But he's so sweet.
- [24:33]
B
Did you guys know he's so successful? But did you guys know who. I guess, Kathy, you knew who that Alfie was famous that whole time, too.
- [24:41]
D
I did know.
- [24:42]
C
Yeah.
- [24:43]
B
Everybody knew but me. Everyone knew but me.
- [24:46]
A
Well, I think that goes back to what I was saying is, like, she's writing this for people who have, like, the full context and are ready to criticize her. She's not imagining someone who doesn't know her. I think this is specifically. It felt like she was writing it for people who were criticizing her and she was answering and writing back and giving excuse to all of the critiques that she had went through publicly.
- [25:06]
B
That is a great point. And I also talking about how David Harbour should have known if she wrote that song about her brother, who she loves dearly and has already regretted it. Like, you've gotta know it's coming. And part of her success and breakout story and how she did make her own way without connections is that she had a blog and used MySpace, which I think is really cool and innovative, but also is like, wait a minute. Part of Lily's origin story is being transparent, talking shit and saying everything, which explains why she has a podcast now. And then she wrote this, and I said, oh, boy. Okay, so obviously in one of her first songs, she wrote a song called Cheryl Tweety. And she's like, talking about how I wish I looked just like her, blah, blah, who's now Cheryl Cole. And in this 2008 interview on Gordon Ramsay show the F Word, they had this clip played. And here is a possible transphobia trigger warning with some of the language they're going into. Nobody really wants to look like Cheryl. They just think they do.
- [26:09]
C
Who said that? Lily Allen. What's her name?
- [26:11]
D
Lily Allen.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah. Well done, well done. Everybody wants to look like a dick.
- [26:16]
A
Yeah.
- [26:17]
B
What do you think of Lily Allen?
- [26:18]
C
Chick with a dick.
- [26:19]
B
Chick with a dick. Okay. Gordon Ramsay, you piece of shit. And Cheryl Cole laughs, and Lily gets really mad. Then she writes in her blog, cheryl, if you're reading this, I may not be as pretty as you, but at least I write and sing my own songs without the aid of autotune. I must say, taking your clothes off, doing sexy dancing, and marrying a rich footballer must be very gratifying for you. Your mother must be so proud. Stupid bitch.
- [26:46]
C
Yeah. And this is why that she was such tabloid fodder, because she fed it as well. Like she was feeding the meat. Like, that was crazy stuff. She was writing about Sheryl Cole, who, like, had nothing. Like, they had had no interactions whatsoever. And she does that a lot. Like she's coming out. Like, she mentions Edith Bowman, who's like this lovely BBC radio host who does a music show. It's a funny thing. And I don't know what you guys think about it. Is it okay to be really nasty and then acknowledge it in your memoir and say sorry? It's like it kind of makes you feel okay.
- [27:15]
B
Yeah, it's kind of the best thing you can do is like, take accountability. She's like, I am so sorry. I was jealous of Cheryl. I wanted to be sexy and didn't feel sexy. Like, I was obviously insecure. But this is what I mean by the headline. Learns and then never learns. She fully learned, right? And then she'll turn around and do it again.
- [27:31]
C
Yeah. I think so many women love her though, because she's so, like, she is so unfiltered. And it's very rare, like, particularly when someone's that famous. And it's why her albums are so good. Right. And it's why she wrote Pussy Palace.
- [27:42]
B
No. Such a good point.
- [27:43]
D
I also feel like that is a little bit how I felt reading her memoir. She would get me on her side. I would be fully wrapped in. I'm bought into exactly her point of view. And then she would talk about the next thing she would do and I'd be like, oh, right. And then she would write about it. I'm like, oh, my God, no. But of course, it makes so much sense, Lily, I'm fully on your side again. And then she's like. And then here's the next fucked up thing that I did. So.
- [28:07]
B
You're right. There is something so lovely about it because, like, we all do fucked up things and mostly we want to turn around and be like, no, I didn't. You know, and so there's something very compelling. There were some of these parts of this book that I couldn't believe. Like, she had never had an orgasm when she wrote. It's not fair. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back.
- [28:33]
C
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A
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C
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- [28:50]
B
Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. She had never had an orgasm when she wrote it's not fair. And she said I'd not had a single one, not with someone else and not by myself. I didn't masturbate when I was young or in my teens or even for most of my 20s. It's hard for me to unravel why. Certainly pleasing myself in any way was never high on my list of priorities. And so the idea of actively exploring a zone that was apparently dedicated to pleasure felt impossible, and I didn't feel I deserved it. She was very late to exploring her sexuality. So even though she is, like, you know, she's been married twice or she's almost 40, there are some things that she's still very behind in knowing and learning about herself.
- [29:35]
D
I do think, though, that that's, like, absolutely tied to the fact that she had her, like, first terrible, predatory sexual experience when she was, like, 14. So she wasn't able to, like, come to that part of herself on her own. It was just sort of, like, thrust upon her.
- [29:50]
B
Yeah.
- [29:51]
D
So she's not gonna be, like, going into that space in a fun way.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah.
- [29:56]
D
You know, for herself.
- [29:58]
B
Yeah.
- [29:58]
D
So I feel like it makes sense that it would, like, take her a long time to get there.
- [30:02]
B
Absolutely. But she gets married at 24 years old, so she. She doesn't spend a lot of time exploring before going right into this marriage quite young. Christina, what were you gonna say?
- [30:12]
A
Piggybacking off of some of Katie's point. There's a hint of her thought process here being, like, doing the sex is the sexual liberation, but she feeling that internally, and she's not prioritizing her passion, her desires, her wants. It's this idea of, like, well, if I do the thing, then I am liberated, but you're not internalizing that in any way. And I think that that disconnect is important to highlight for what happens in the future.
- [30:36]
B
Yes, I totally agree. It also reminds me of a point we came to in our book club of girl on girl, which, again, is talking about, like, early 2000s culture that Lily's a part of, where women are taught and cultured to be pleasing to men. So much so that when a man wants to have sex with you, that's what's turning you on, that you've achieved the thing as a woman you're supposed to achieve, which is, a man wants to have sex with me, and therefore, that is enough versus and I got.
- [31:00]
A
Him off or whatever.
- [31:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. Versus, like, and I want to have sex as well. All right.
- [31:05]
A
It is also important to note that, like, orgasms aren't the be all End all people can have a good sexual experience without having an orgasm.
- [31:14]
B
Yeah. But we can say clearly she didn't have that either.
- [31:17]
A
Yes.
- [31:18]
B
Okay. Hot goss tangent. Hot goss tangent. So this has nothing to do with the larger picture, just something I need to talk about, which is that she started dating a guy named Jay who she met through her dad's friend, Damien Hurst. And she said dad hated Jay. Cause Jay was dad's age. And she said there were paparazzi photos of us taken on the yacht that were published in the tabloids. That's how my dad found out I was seeing someone from his world. He texted Jay when he saw those photographs. I knew because I saw Jay get the text. His face turned white when he read it. Quote, you wait, Jay, my dad texted you wait Till Angelica is 16. Angelica is Jay's daughter. She was 11 years old in January 2009. Jay's ex wife, Sam Taylor Johnson, also texted him when she saw the photos. She said, quote, what are you doing going out with that dwarf? Oh, Katie, please tell the crowd who Sam Taylor Johnson is.
- [32:19]
C
Okay.
- [32:19]
D
I love that because I did also take that screenshot from the book. So Sam Taylor Johnson is also the wife of Aaron Taylor Johnson, who she met while she was directing him. And he was 19 and she was in her 40s, and they have been together since then.
- [32:39]
B
So here's people texting Jay, which, by the way, Jay is not given a last name. Is this someone wildly famous that I should know about?
- [32:46]
D
I Googled.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah.
- [32:47]
C
Okay.
- [32:47]
D
His name is Jay Joplin.
- [32:48]
B
Jay Joplin. Not related to this. He's like an art guy.
- [32:51]
C
Okay.
- [32:51]
B
Art guy.
- [32:52]
D
No, he's just like, looks like an old British man who does art stuff.
- [32:56]
B
Okay. Love it. Thank you so much for the bio.
- [32:58]
C
Lily Allen is so, like, her dad comes across so poorly. But this was the most astonishing thing about her dad. Like, he's essentially threatening to assault a child. And in my frenzy of reading this book, I actually stopped on that and actually went to find my husband and say, I need you to see what I've just read. The detail she goes into sometimes is astonishing. I mean, and then just catching strays there. You know, for Sam Taylor Johnson, that.
- [33:22]
B
Was one where I was like, is Lily extremely calculated and smart? Because Sam Taylor Johnson dated and married a man who she met when he was a teenager, 19, surely, like, of age, whatever. But like, as you said, in 2009, his daughter was 11. And when you think about that, you're like, oh, in seven years, somehow it would be okay for some Old man to date you like. No. It's insane. Yeah, that was pretty horrifying. I thought you were saying catching strays because she said, what are you doing with that dwarf? Which is like mad at Lily for being short. And I was like, that's Sam Taylor Johnson. That's really rude. Terrible language.
- [33:57]
C
I was googling what his reaction had been to the memoir, the dad, and apparently the only thing he took umbrage with is she said that he had a heart attack and glass Ruby because of cocaine. And he said, no, I had food poisoning. That's the only thing. He's crazy. Corrected about the memoir. This is what I would be correcting. Nobody cares if you had a cocaine induced heart attack. What you should be correcting is this text.
- [34:15]
B
Yes.
- [34:16]
C
So the fact that he didn't speaks volumes.
- [34:18]
B
Yes.
- [34:19]
D
Okay. That text. And then also a little bit later when she's talking about some night she had to go bring a jacket back to a guy. She was again, a young teenager. This guy was like, maybe 19 or 20, whatever, is like, hey, guess what? We're gonna have a drink and then we're gonna go up to my hotel room and she has sex with him afterwards. She's like, okay, wait, actually, maybe that was bad.
- [34:40]
B
Yeah, I'm a child.
- [34:42]
D
I'm a child. And so she tells her dad about it, and instead of her dad doing anything about it, he just jokes with his friends about it and jokes about blackmailing that guy and then maybe does a little bit, but it's like she's looking to her dad for a tiny bit of protection. And he's like, well, no, this is a joke now between me and my friends. And it's like, well, yeah. Cause he just joked about assaulting an 11 year old so he doesn't see what happened to you as a problem. Yeah, he's like, yeah, obviously.
- [35:11]
B
And I imagine that's also why it probably hurts so bad to be told you're a Nepo baby and that this guy who's actually been quite horrible to you your entire life helped you in any way, which I 100% agree with. And then I also want to say almost all Nepo dads are bad. They're all bad. It's canon that your famous, famous father who's doing cocaine and not being a good parent is bad. He got his fame in bad ways and then passed it on. However, I really do sit with her of like, yeah, if everyone credited my career to my fucked up father, wherever he may be, I'd be fucking pissed too. Okay, so I want to talk about Sam, her first marriage, Kathy or Katie or Christina. Wow. Tough. Kathy, Katie, Christina, Christine. Amazing. Who wants to give Sam's bio? Because I think him being posh. But Lily being the financial breadwinner is a tricky layer to talk about in this relationship. But also that he was Lester's friend. And Lester's the guy who broke her heart when she was a teenager, who she wrote her first album about, and then she literally marries someone in the friend group. So who can give the Sam bio?
- [36:23]
C
I think it's interesting with Sam because in the press he was always, I literally thought he was like laying bricks on the side of the road when she found him. That's how the described him. So when she said he was posh, I guess it was always like Lily's bricky husband or Lily's tradesman husband. He was always spoken like about that. I think it makes sense it's a childhood friend because if you're in your say, mid early 20s and you're really famous, it would be really hard to trust anyone you met. So I think the childhood friend thing makes a bit of sense. And look, her and Lester broke up when she was like 17, so it's probably not the weirdest situation he sounds from the book. And she, for all the people she shit talks, she says, I'm not speaking badly about him, we've two kids together. I loved him a lot. And she proceeds to tell us how awfully she treated him. But they had a really tough time. Like they got married really young, she got pregnant, she lost a baby, they had another baby who had a severe health issue. And then she went off and like itself, admittedly like kind of, I think destroyed the marriage. So I think Sam comes quite well out of this book. I don't know what you guys think, but she doesn't say a lot about him as a person.
- [37:24]
B
One of the pieces I loved the most about this memoir is how she talked about how she got famous young. And it was so intense and she was riding every high, but in the back of her head was like, I'm dying and I need to get out of here. And she saw marriage and having children as a way to off road and stabilize her life. And I think it really explains all of the extremely young superstars who do the same thing. I thought of Jamie Lynn Spears, I thought of Solange Knowles, and I know they have other details to them, but like someone seen an off road from the journey they're on. Even though that's going to fix you either. Okay. Katie. Christina. I see.
- [38:03]
D
You know, I think we were maybe both just thinking about Millie Bobby Brown.
- [38:06]
A
Yeah, I was actually going to say David Harbor. Like, this mirrors a lot of, I think, where David Harbour was at the. He gives a quote a couple of years ago about how Stranger Things made him think about having a family. He said, I liked my freedom, I liked my independence. And then it was really this part, the Stranger Things part, that did change a lot of my perspective. The show sort of opened my heart in a lot of ways. And one of the ways that it did was it started to make me realize how thin my existence was without a family. And so I think he saw this opportunity with Lily and we can get into this later of, like, an instant family and sort of elevating himself as a family man, which I think is also a parlay for his career, too. I think there's some marketing element there, too. And he was probably hitting a certain age because he's 10 years older than Lily. So he was probably looking at his life and being like, I don't know. Being a single guy is not really it when you're about to approach 50. Like, what am I really taking stock here? Here's this woman who's like, fam. And she can share this famous life with me, and I have an instant family, and maybe this will make me the stable man that, you know, society, everything that conditions you monogamy, everything trains you to be.
- [39:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, Love that. Go ahead, Katie.
- [39:19]
D
That even goes back to, like. Because he was starting to feel that while filming Stranger Things, being like, a father figure to Millie Bobby Brown, who now at 21, is married, adopting a baby.
- [39:30]
B
Yes, yes, absolutely, Katie. Okay, back to Sam. So Sam was called. Did you say a brick? A bricky.
- [39:38]
C
A bricky bricky or a brick. Because his.
- [39:40]
B
A lot of his wealth comes from building buildings, which, like, again, is what Trump did. However, Lily still was the breadwinner, even though Sam came from a posh background, which I think brings a lot of nuance into the relationship. Here's one thing that it's really small that I want to read about their relationship that I felt sums up exactly what you just said, Kathy, which she said, I loved that Sam didn't overreact about things. He was calm. He didn't do drama. Quite soon after we got together, I overslept at his house and missed a dance rehearsal for something important. I think it was my performance at the Brit Awards that would be hugely important. I was always nervous about those kinds of performances. And because I was late My anxiety fizzed into fury. I took it out on Sam. Quote, you didn't fucking set the alarm. I yelled, it's your fucking fault. He didn't react. He didn't shout back, blah, blah, blah. He just ignored me and let it go. He didn't bring it up later, didn't hold it against me, didn't let it escalate. That was a new experience for me. It was a relief. This is where it's hard for me. I'm like, in what world is it someone else's fault that they didn't set an alarm for you? And then neither of you spoke about this egregious behavior ever. And that's positive. That was positive. So then when we get into more intense things, like, I started cheating on him, and it didn't count because it was with female escorts, you're sort of like, okay, I can kind of like, see the ladder that it took to get here. I just want to read a couple other things from the marriage that we could then just talk about as a whole. She said, the first time I cheated on Sam, aside from my dalliances with the dancers, it's like, not aside from, this isn't the first time you cheated on. The first time was like, all those other things. She said, I slept with a sound mix engineer from New York. Engineer Guy was in his 40s, had just gone through a divorce. We were both taking a lot of drugs. One night, after working together with Seb, we all went out. Engineer Guy took us to a strip club, and when he and I went to the toilet to do a line of coke, he pushed me up against the wall and kissed me. I was shocked. It suddenly felt like I entered a different world. It was like a door opened in that toilet and against that wall, and I went through it without protest. Test. I take responsibility for what I did. But there was no question that it was Engineer Guy who led the way. He was the predatory one. We'd worked together more recently on a couple of songs. Blah, blah, blah. And then she said, I sometimes wonder if I'll get the kind of letter that people sometimes feel compelled to write where they take responsibility for the shit they put out while they were using. Fuck, Lily. I want that letter to say I'm sorry. You were vulnerable and you were married, and I seduced you against a wall while you were high on drugs. And then she said that against the wall turned into an unhappy affair for a few months. I said, I'm sorry, you guys. This is crazy. Like, the way she takes Accountability and blames it entirely on him is like one of the wildest things I've ever read. She's like, okay, but he pushed me against the wall. But I did continue to cheat with him for months and months. Also. I wanted it. Also it's his fault. I take accountability for what I did. I'd actually cheated on my husband dozens and dozens of times before the this. But this was the engineer's fault. I hope he apologizes to me one day. Did you guys have a different read on this?
- [42:56]
C
I felt like reading it from the bits before this where she talked about the loss of her son and then her daughter who was born and who was very ill and couldn't feed. I felt like what she went through was so traumatic. She was so young. Like she had gotten pregnant immediately after she got married. Like she had no kind of stable base to come from. And then she obviously has very, very dysfunctional family. And she was obviously in this throes of like, grief, postnatal, you know, everything that was happening in her life. So to then be in America, away from her family. And I think she really detailed that, like, working mom back and forth conundrum that people have, but at a really extreme level because of the drugs and everything. To me, she was in the midst of an absolute breakdown when all of this happened. So I guess looking back on it, I have empathy for her where she might see maybe her and Sam at something because clearly her and David have this later where they as like something where, like, if it's sex workers, it doesn't count as affairs. They might. She might have had some delineation in her head there. Maybe she looks back on that man and thinks, I was so fragile and I wish you had never started it. That still doesn't mean she's not to blame, but maybe I just think she was. Anyone who would have known her would have been like, she's so vulnerable and I have empathy for her.
- [44:01]
B
I think that's really well said. Yeah. And I want to say, I know I was railing against her. I also have empathy for her. Again, she wrote this in the middle of it. It's not fully processed.
- [44:09]
A
Okay. I just.
- [44:10]
D
I feel like the one thing that kind of does tie to her arrangement with David Harbour is that she starts having sex with dancers on the tour that are not sex workers and then she's just sleeping with everyone and then she sleeps with that engineer and has that affair. And it almost feels like it's when she's trying to get a little bit of control over that she's like, I know I'm gonna keep fucking around. I know that I will. I'm gonna keep exploring. I'm gonna keep going down this path. Is there a way for me to make it slightly less destructive? And in her mind, that goes to female sex workers.
- [44:47]
B
Yeah. That it's. Financially.
- [44:48]
D
She doesn't call sex workers.
- [44:49]
B
Yes, Exactly.
- [44:50]
C
She.
- [44:50]
B
In 2018, were we still saying the word hooker? And is there a overseas delineation?
- [44:58]
C
I only hear the word sex worker, honestly, on like American podcasts, hence me using it now. Yeah, like I'll use it now on our podcast if it comes, but because I prefer the term. But it's not quite. I think in 2018, 2017, over here, it wouldn't really have been a term that was used.
- [45:12]
B
That's what I was kind of wondering. And also, I want to read something else I'm going to read from her book. So I apologize. We're not going to be using the word sex worker while I'm reading her words, which is, I guess on some level, even in my desperation, I knew that I wouldn't make it back and that taking heroin would have been a slow bid for suicide. So instead I hired a hooker. It felt like the least personal, coldest and least loving way to use sex that I could think of. I found my hooker by using Google as you do. I typed in, quote, high class escorts in the city I was in, then picked up the telephone, I asked for a woman. I didn't like the idea of a male prostitute putting his cock inside me. Fuck knows where that's been. And I said, lily, do you not understand that vaginas can be all places as well? What are you. What was this delineation exactly? I was like, what mental gymnastics are making this mathy math?
- [46:10]
C
Maybe she knew. And maybe she knew writing this that maybe Sam doesn't count it as much as cheating if it's women, because you never know what's going on in a relationship. And some men are like that.
- [46:19]
D
Sound like he did count it.
- [46:21]
C
Yeah, it sounds like she was the.
- [46:23]
D
One who didn't count it. But he in fact very much did count it.
- [46:26]
B
Because.
- [46:27]
D
Because also she was like, I just wanted him to save me, but she was hurting him. And she was like, I'm hurting you and I need you to save me from hurting you, Katie.
- [46:35]
B
I think that is so well said. Okay, jumping into our next topic, which is Dringo, she drops her exact weight. Now, Kathy, here's where I said, I love that I don't understand weight in.
- [46:49]
C
Stone, oh my God.
- [46:51]
B
It doesn't have to hurt me as much.
- [46:53]
C
This was such a Dringo.
- [46:54]
B
I knew it. And if I looked it up, it will hurt me. And I'm sorry for anyone who does understand Stone, but anyone who doesn't, just take the win. After I had Marnie, I weighed over 14 stone. I'm short and I've got a small frame, so I've got nowhere to hide any extra weight. I looked like an Oompa Loompa. I didn't embrace it, not for a second. I hated it. So I said Dringo. And then I will say she really talks around Ed and eating disorders in this book. She tries to make it a little benign of like my weight loss. But then we'll also say things like. Like, Sam knew I was bulimic and we both just agreed that I was bulimic and that is something that I did. What were Yalls thoughts on this? Because I will say Ed and Eding really comes up in this David Harbour story and where she's at now as well.
- [47:39]
C
Yeah, it really does. And it's funny, cause as I said, I'm the same height as her. And the Dringo thing struck me. Cause I love when you do it. And I thought, oh my God, Henry Kissinger is gonna come up next. But honestly, thank God, it's a weird thing when you're the same height as someone and you read away that like you yourself have been, and they're telling you they look like an Oompa Loompa. At that weight. It's so toxic.
- [47:59]
B
It's the worst thing.
- [48:00]
C
I don't know why she put it in. And again, I know she loves detail. And like, she mentioned this early on in the memoir in what I thought was a beautiful passage, I don't have it in front of me, where she briefly had this English teacher who brought them out into the countryside and they actually read the poetry that had been written in that countryside. And in that moment she thought, this is how I should, like in my writing, imbue things with detail because it's such a wonderful thing. And she took this brilliant lesson away that's always stood to her, but sometimes you don't need to put the details in. And she can just say, I was like, we already know she was in grief, she was in the middle of a mental breakdown. She was really struggling. She was like owed a tax bill where she owed millions of pounds. She doesn't need to tell us her weight on top of all of this. Now, when you look At Lily Allen, she's just embraced this really thin look. And so looking at her now and reading this, it's just a bit sad, isn't it?
- [48:47]
B
Yeah. Because she also acknowledges enough that she deals with Ed, and she has acknowledged recently that she's been dealing with it, but then also it's sort of of wielded harmfully both towards herself and others. And this brings me to, like, two of my final points before final, final things from the book before we get to Zoe Kravitz. I'm really gonna try and say this clearly, but it is so nuanced. I don't know if I'll succeed. So everyone wish me luck, which is that simply existing as a female, let alone a very young female now who has success in any way is a political act. It already becomes political. This becomes a political act, so she can't get around it. However, when you wield the tools of feminism without understanding what they mean, or when you just are thrust into feminism because you're existing in this world that's only meant for men, you then end up making feminist acts that don't include all women and become white feminism. Which is to say she will talk about how horrible it is to be put in these sexy clothes and have all these body things put upon you, but then in her own book puts them upon other women or even now and then wildly, her talking about her weight transitioned on the exact same page to the time she was called racist for a music video she put out that had her objectifying black women in the video who were dancing and twerking while she was fully clothed. And she talks about how well it was because she didn't like her body and didn't feel comfortable enough to be as naked as them because she was feeling weight shame. But then, you know, these black dancers get featured and not her other dancers who are like different ethnicities. And for her, she was like, how did this video get taken the wrong way? Because she's not clocked in enough enough to the tools she's wielding when she writes a song Hard out here for a bitch.
- [50:46]
A
I will add that she did make reference to this in 2016 when she was on X Factor. And she did say I was guilty of appropriating when I did the video Hard out here. The intention behind it was I definitely wanted to make a feminist statement, but I was guilty of assuming that there was a one size all where feminism is concerned.
- [51:04]
B
Yes, exactly. Which I feel, you know what? That was a lot better than what took me a million in years to say. But I feel like, yeah, it's. And it is really cool that she takes accountability for that. But there's another thing in the book where she takes accountability gets so weird, which is when she talks about dressing up as Dr. Luke, the gynecologist for Halloween. And she starts the chapter saying, I support Ke$ha. Like many artists, I support Ke$. Then she's like, Taylor Swift gave her $250,000 for her legal fees. And I was like, that's so cool of you to include that. Why are you including it next to you? Not doing that. But okay. And then she' dressed as this joke that I thought was like, funny, but also like, I've been assaulted. She talks about a lot of assaults in the book by the industry, by other people. And I stand with Kesha and I wish she would have been like, I was making fun of Dr. Luke, which is what she said in tweets. But in the book she just said, I support Kesha and I dressed as Dr. Luke. What did you guys think? Because that's another way of like, I am a feminist. Me too. But also, you're also. Also causing harm. What do you guys think?
- [52:08]
C
She's so self destructive. And yeah, I don't know why she dressed the same. Like, she's clearly a huge attention seeker. She clearly likes to be provocative. She was probably, and I'm not excusing it, but like, I would imagine using fairly heavily drugs and alcohol. I think this was in the. All in the midst of her marriage breakdown as well, wasn't it?
- [52:25]
B
Yes. And she said she was like in a breakdown place.
- [52:28]
C
She was all over the place. Right. But in the book, I think she just kind of tried to just say something and just move on. Like she knew she had to acknowledge it, but it's still brought against her now. Like even on comments under her West End girl posts and stuff, you see people saying like, why did you dress as Dr. Luke? And it was just such a faux pas. I don't know why she did it. She couldn't excuse it because there is no excuse. No excuse.
- [52:47]
B
But she didn't even try to get into that. And maybe that's because she felt like it was pointless.
- [52:53]
D
There's a lot of things in this book she just shouldn't have done at all.
- [52:56]
B
Yeah, that's why it's so fascinating. And then again why you feel so grateful to her for being like, I mean, there's a lot of fuck ups in the world and we all fuck up all the time and it's like someone owning all of it. And then that said, you know, we can always go back to the fact that Lily gave away a dog. And how, how do we get around that?
- [53:14]
C
Yeah, I, I just, I, I, I don't think I come at this. Right. I just enjoy her so much that, like, I hear everything you're saying. And I'm also like, I live for this book. Like, reading this book in 24 hours and listening, like, to the album at the same time was just. It's like a ride no one else would bring you on. Like, I don't really listen to Taylor Swift. I find that, like, sifting through her songs really does. Like, Lily's just putting it all out there. You know, we don't have to dig. We can just let it wash over us. And some of it, it's crazy stuff. It's really crazy stuff.
- [53:43]
B
I totally, I totally agree, Kathy. Also, I love the album, and I love this ride.
- [53:49]
A
Yeah, I think that's where I really struggle. I think sometimes, quote, unquote, owning it then offers some sort of absolution to some people. And I'm not saying that's what happens here, but, like, her owning it doesn't do anything for me in terms of, like, like, changing my opinion on the acts that she's done, because some of these, and we'll get into it with maybe the Zoe Kravitz stuff are really egregious, and there's no amount of transparency about whatever she was going to that's going to scrub away the damage and the impact that her actions have had on people, regardless of intent.
- [54:20]
B
Perfect transition to Zoe Kravitz. Okay, so I saw the video of Zoe Kravitz on Andy Cohen talking about about this before I read it in the book.
- [54:30]
D
If by kissing she means, like, attacking, then, yes, she kissed me.
- [54:36]
B
Oh, I don't.
- [54:37]
D
Like, she attacked me.
- [54:38]
B
So. But is that how she portrayed it in the book? No, no, it was portrayed else, like.
- [54:44]
C
Like, I wanted it.
- [54:45]
B
Right. Oh, wow. Okay. Then I read the book, and I said, zoe should have gone way harder because what's written in the book is, is my note was, why are you printing this? This is egregious. So I'm gonna read it in full, and then I know we're gonna yell. Okay. For my New York shows, Zoe Kravitz and her band Lola Wolf supported me. I got to know Zoe a bit. We became friends. Later in the tour, when we were in Washington, the girls and their nanny Jess came out to visit me for a few days. But I had to go back to New York for a day or so for work. Zoe and I went out partying and ended up kissing. I heard that later, the same night, she'd got down with ASAP Rocky. Go girl, I thought. Here's where I wrote, why are you printing this? Why are you printing a rumor of someone else's soak up? This is horrible. Okay, she said. When I returned to Washington, Jess greeted me with the news that the girls had thread worms and that anyone who'd been in close contact with them should take a pill or some medicine to flush them out. Because it was likely we'd all gotten worms too. I wondered whether I should ring or text Zoe and ask her in turn to to alert ASAP Rocky about the problem. I decided against it. If the coolest rapper in the world had caught worms, albeit indirectly, from my kids, then he could probably figure it out himself. That incident made me laugh. But mostly my exploits were the actions of someone depressed and lonely and desperately crying for some kind of attention. I was an extremist. And then just last thing I wanna say is that one, two, two paragraphs later she wrote this sentence. Things escalated late summer when I joined Miley Cyrus on her Bangers tour. Parentheses. Miley Cyrus, by the way, is great. She's straightforward, doesn't do bullshit, behaves like she's been touring and performing all her life, which she has. She's a real pro. And then I just want to revisit that. She said, I got to know Zoe Kravitz a bit, period. Okay, Katie, let me throw it to you first.
- [56:41]
D
I just really feel like if you're gonna be or a person in the world and someone tells you, hey, you have a transmittable something and you should tell the people you've been in close contact with, you gotta tell the people you've been in close contact with regardless of if that person will then have to tell ASAP Rocky or not.
- [57:02]
B
Also, why the fuck are you printing in your book, I mean that Zoe may have hooked up with A$AP Rocky and then you may have given him warrants terms even though in real life you did nothing about it and you don't know if it's true. I say to this there's more for both of them. And this was her intentionally being like, fuck you, Zoe. Fuck you ASAP Rocky. And I would say it is rude and cruel to have printed this in a book.
- [57:30]
A
Yeah. So I will add that in March 2019, Lily gave an interview with MTV Australia where that journalist asked her there.
- [57:37]
B
Was an instance in the book where.
- [57:39]
C
You spoke about Zoe Kravitz and then.
- [57:41]
B
She jumped on Andy Collins show and said, mm, mm. It didn't go down like that.
- [57:47]
C
Thoughts on that? I can't really speak for her. Yeah. So all I can say, which is.
- [57:53]
D
My version of events.
- [57:54]
B
Yeah.
- [57:55]
C
And you've reached hers and you've already written about it. We'll leave it at that then.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah. And also Zoe said she attacked me. Meaning, like, I didn't consent to this. I didn't want this. There were no signals. Yeah.
- [58:05]
C
And assuming Lily Allen was, I mean, by her own account, out of her mind here, I think that she has probably got the wrong interpretation of what happened where she thought it was like a consensual case, and it clearly wasn't because Zoe Kravitz is so pissed off about this. And Zoe Kravitz said, who's Lily Allen? Which is such a burn because, like, she supported her on tour.
- [58:24]
D
I do think it. It should be noted. And I want to be very clear. Obviously Zoe didn't want to be kissed by Lily Allen. That was assault. I do think Lily Ellen's grasp on what is and is not assault is not sort of in the reality that everyone else was. Exists in. I think that a lot of things, especially when drugs and alcohol are involved, happened to and fr. Like, by her in a way where I'm sure that she. They had the exact same experience. Lily was like, yeah, great.
- [58:57]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [58:58]
D
That's just what happens. People just kiss you.
- [59:00]
B
Yeah.
- [59:01]
D
And then you've kissed. And I do think that, yeah, that is assault. And also I can see her not recognizing it as assault because of. Of her life.
- [59:11]
C
Yeah.
- [59:11]
D
And brain.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah. Okay, so now we're gonna. We have. We have three more buckets, you guys. We're on. But. But we made it through the memoir. Now I want to acknowledge there are huge other subjects in the memoirs we have not touched on. Maybe they will come up in these buckets. So let's go to the heterosexual pipeline of open marriage to divorce. The discussion we must have about open marriage versus cheating. Now, here's what I want to say. Almost every friend I have, queer or straight, gets on dating apps these days and says, I guess everyone is ethically non monogamous. When did everyone become poly? Because everyone they're swiping on is like, I'm married, but like, we can fuck. And then the second thing I want to acknowledge is the amount of couples I know, both in real life and just in culture, who didn't have the courage to divorce each other. And so they opened their marriage and ended up in divorce in a way that anyone else, including them, should have been able to just jump to divorce, but instead an open marriage came in between. And I know that is not how open marriages are actually supposed to work, including this one with David Harbor. And the thing from the book I want to pull in before I hand the floor over to you both is that a lot of people are like, how can you be mad at David harbor for cheating when you had sex with Liam Gallagher, singer from Oasis, when he was with Nicole Appleton, you were the other woman too. And yeah, I mean, that is so fun. In the book, she's sort of like, I didn't realize he was with Nicole, so take that for what you will. Also, by the time she knew he was with Nicole, they were not having a thing anymore. And then Liam asked her to lie to Nicole. I actually wasn't clear from the book whether she did or not, but this does map to David Harbour. Open relationship cheating with Madeline. In some ways. And also in some ways, it's totally different. And so can one of my defense experts on open marriage and polyamory and discuss how the rules of this marriage differed between cheating, not cheating, and, like, how. How this kind of mess happened?
- [61:13]
D
So I feel like, yeah, it comes down to, like, is there open communication? Are people lying? Are people doing things they said they weren't going to do? You know, cheating can happen in a monogamous relationship. Cheating can happen in an open relationship. And the relationship being open doesn't make it more prone to someone cheating. Yeah, because it's just. It's like, are you a liar or not? It's kind of like, yeah, no, that's.
- [61:38]
B
A good way to. To simplify it because, God, I've listened to the album so much. We had an arrangement. They had to be strangers, there had to be payment, and there couldn't be emotions. So basically it had to be transactional. With sex workers, it had to be someone you didn't know. You had to be discreet and you couldn't see them, like, more than once. And that by lying about that and seeing the same woman for years and years and years and perhaps falling in love with her, that was the cheating. Is that right?
- [62:04]
A
It seems to me, based on some of the things that she's saying in the lyrics, that this was non monogamy by coercion or under duress. So when you're opening up the relationship or you're talking about having non monogamy, definitely not a phone Call. I would say that, I would also say that it shouldn't happen under our relationship is going to end unless we do this or I'm going to leave you unless this happens, or our relationship's not going to work out unless this happens. Then you're kind of forcing, manipulating or coercing your partner into agreeing to something that doesn't necessarily align with maybe what they had envisioned for the relationship. And I think part of that is manipulation and part of that is also self betrayal. Right to it to an extent where she, she, I don't know, maybe didn't feel agency that she could speak up to what she wanted in the relationship or I'm not really sure what happened there. That was the thing that I really struggled with was like, where was her agency? And saying no to this if it wasn't something that she wanted? And clearly it felt like she, she didn't want it.
- [63:04]
B
But also the stuff she did say yes to was broken. So even if she didn't want to have the open marriage, she did verbally agree to it. And then he broke the rules of that verbal agreement by going beyond payment, going beyond strangers, and really basically falling in love with a woman she calls Madeline, who we know real name is Natalie.
- [63:24]
D
It does really feel like in print she has, you know, prior to their relationship she wrote like, I'll sort of do whatever to keep a man. And I think that, you know, sex workers is sort of the furthest away from love that you can have sex. So I think it was like a, okay, well, I'm not comfortable with this. I don't want to if we take West End Girl on its face value. And so it did seem like, okay, maybe as a compromise it can only be with sex workers. And I feel like that also, you know, when you get into ethical non monogamy, polyamory, whatever, where you're having relationships with multiple people, you know, some people want to say, oh well, my rule is you can't fall in love. And so if you maybe get into a situation where you find yourself falling in love with someone else, you then maybe have to break up with that person, which then sort of like isn't actually fair to that like third party person, but is like, okay, well that's, you know, pre established. So maybe that's the boundary I'm going to stay within. But like again, you can't really dictate other people's feelings. That's very hard to do. However, if you're saying, okay, well it's only going to be with sex Workers, this is a service industry worker. They understand that this is a transaction. They're coming to it with a professional mindset. If there's going to be a circumstance in which it's the least likely that you might fall in love with this other person, it's going to be with a sex worker you only see one time.
- [64:43]
C
Yeah, yeah, Kathy, I think it's like before they got to the rules part, which is fascinating, I do think, to your earlier point, just because she cheated in her previous marriage does not mean that she wants this marriage to be non monogamous. And I do think the impression I have, again from listening to the album and being an online sleuth like everyone else, is that this marriage was entered into in the understanding that it would be monogamous. And then it feels like when she got the role in the play in London and there was some professional jealousy there and then she's in London, it just feels. Again, I know we're only hearing her side of it, but it feels like a spiteful move and not necessarily coming from a place of, like, mutual agreement. They're also not married that long at this point. They're married like a year. So it does really feel foisted on her. And as you say, Katie, like in print, she's already said she'll kind of do anything to keep a partner. So to me, if you felt like regardless of anything she's done. And I was with girlfriends in the pub the other night and they were all like, well, she used to cheat on her husband. And I was like, but I don't think that matters though, in this relationship. And like, she just, she feels like a very vulnerable person. And again, I know I just love her too much. But, like, imagine being in a hotel room. It's a different time zone. Her kids are probably with him in New York. I presume they have an Annie or whatever. But, like, the whole thing is a very vulnerable situation. And I don't know if you saw, she got nominated for an Olivier Award, which is like the tone.
- [66:02]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [66:02]
C
And they were interviewed at the Olivier Awards and he was so bitter. He's like, well, I've been in hundreds of plays and it just, it feels like a really spiteful. Like, it's not like a considered way to enter this non monogamy. It's like, it's nasty. And I think it started from a nasty place and therefore how could it have ever been healthy, like, ever?
- [66:20]
A
I do want to bring in some shading of a quote that David Harbour said in 2022. He gave an interview with UK GQ magazine. He says, she claims to have fallen in love at first sight with me. I mean, who wouldn't? I remember the exact mom. He's saying he remembers the exact moment he fell in love with her. It was our third date. I was just in this phase where I was like, I'm going to be brutally honest about everything, because why lie? And I told her something about my life, about my beliefs. It would take a really extraordinary person to be accepting of the things that I said. And I remember thinking, wow, that's somebody.
- [66:51]
B
I want to be around, Someone who accepts me.
- [66:54]
A
Yeah.
- [66:54]
B
I think we're talking about something we can see people doing, which is misusing open relationships and misusing polyamory language to make it okay that you are actually just cheating and want out of this relationship, which is harmful for a multitude of reasons. And then I do think. What I think was so heartbreaking is because of what she's written in this memoir. I could have seen a world where she and David are perfect for each other. She's like, I like sex workers too. I like fucking around, too. And the way they went about it is what crushed it. Because I want to read this from the memoir. She starts her memoir being like, literally, like, page six is like, I just divorced Sam Cooper and I'm with Dan now. And I was like, no, the memoir curse. The memoir curse. And I was like, I've never seen a page six memoir curse. And I have a copy of the book that has a bonus essay printed in it. And in the bonus essay, she writes, I'm single now, too. Dan and I broke up while I was in America on tour in late 2018, which is what, when the book was published. That is the memoir curse. You've introduced a new partner who doesn't belong there. She said, quote, this is 20. She wrote this post publishing the book. I understand now that if I go away for a long time, it puts a huge pressure on any romantic relationship. I have to emotionally disconnect from whoever I'm with in order to be away without feeling nuts. Sam, my ex husband, let me get on with being away to such a degree that I became untethered. But Dan was different. He wanted to speak often two or three times a day, and I couldn't manage that. But that's not even the point. Da da da da da. I wanted to be free. All to say when she gets a call to be in the West End and go back to London for months and months and months at a Time. Lily already knew that that would put a strain on a romantic relationship and that regardless of what David felt, she was gonna feel crazy and needed to feel untethered from her romantic partner in order for it to work. Which would make the phone call saying, let's open our marriage be something that you would think she would actually have been into had he maybe not abused it.
- [69:00]
D
And I do just want to make a note. One of the quotes Christina, that you put in the Google Doc did, it was Lily Allen saying that they were monogamous towards the beginning of their relationship. In the press, she said, we are monogamous.
- [69:11]
B
Oh, boy.
- [69:12]
D
I think someone asked her about the cheating.
- [69:14]
A
Yes, I remember that now.
- [69:15]
D
So she was like, no, we're monogamous. Yeah.
- [69:17]
C
And in the song, as well, she does imply that she's not happy because she's on the phone and she's like. She literally says, well, I'm not happy about it. Yeah. So I think.
- [69:24]
B
Absolutely. I'm just saying, isn't it. So she's really not happy about it. But isn't it so fascinating that in her memoir, she pretty much wrote that this is what she would want if she went away from a partner. But then in the song, we know that she didn't want it.
- [69:37]
D
This is her pattern. She learns a lesson and she forgets it.
- [69:39]
B
Exactly. I also think, going back to the point, Kathy, you said earlier, and then we're going to move into our next bucket, which is that saying, how could she be mad she was cheated on when she cheated in a previous relationship, is saying, if you've ever cheated, you always deserve to be fucked over in your future relationships, no matter how much you've changed. And I think that is clearly an unfair way to look at this. I also think if you want to do a mapping of, well, you did this too. She would had to have continued the affair with Liam Gallagher for many, many months, knowing Nicole didn't want it in order for that to be a mapping. But let's move into the album itself and specific song highlights. Cause I have a question for you guys. I am worried I'm in the wrong here, and I'd like to be corrected. So in one of the songs, she hired an actor to read out loud this text that Madeline, who we know is a fake name, this text that Madeline wrote her back when Lily clearly wrote her and was like, hey, is David lying? Does he love you? Do you have a relationship? Was this purely physical? Like, he and I agreed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the way it's Acted in the song and the way it's treated. I clearly know that Lily's like this. You can reach out to me anytime.
- [70:52]
C
By the way, if you need any more details or you just need to vent or anything.
- [70:57]
B
Love and light. But I have to say, except for how she ends the text message with love and light. Madeline. Everything else I sort of thought was like, what else can she say? She goes, hey, he's telling the truth. Truth. It was only ever sexual if he lied. Please tell me. I want to know. I don't want to be a part of lies. And if you ever need anything else, a detail, a confirmation receipt or whatever, I will give it to you all. That's my priority. Bye. So I was sort of like. That was kind of the most you could say. Then of course she ends it with love and light. And I was like, well, kind of undid it all. Was she supposed to say something else? What else could you say?
- [71:36]
C
I don't think Gilly Allen's actually criticizing her in the. In the song. I think she's just giving us the details of the text. Cuz she's so messy.
- [71:44]
B
Yeah.
- [71:44]
A
Part of me was like she taking a piss on like Californians. Like Love and Light. Like, you know, the kind of like.
- [71:50]
C
It'S just like this is the conversation and I'm going to give you every detail. I think what was so fascinating in like the earlier song, Ruminating, which is when she's ruminating, I guess in bed after the phone calls happened. And she's probably in her hotel in London. And he says, which is so disgusting. And it's. This is when I just hated it. Baby, if it has to happen, do you wanna know? Not baby, if it's going to happen. So it's like he's just been led by his dick. It's not his fault. These things just happen. We fall into each other's arms. It's such a disgusting way.
- [72:22]
A
Yeah.
- [72:22]
C
Like to remove your own agency. And it's like the universe did it, you know, and just the use of the word baby, which I find like. And the way she just. She's such a good songwriter when she's like, what a fucking line. She just keeps saying it. And I like. My dream is to watch David Harbour listen to that song. Cause he must have just. That's the moment where he must have gone, oh shit. Just gonna say everything.
- [72:43]
B
But also knowing everything we know about him. Diddy. Or was he like. I thought that was a good thing to say. And I feel good about it. I wanna agree with you, with something you said earlier, Kathy, which is like, I fucking love this album. For me, this album is a better memoir than the memoir. She truly is a songwriter. And I, when I press play, I listened start to finish, and it felt like listening to a phenomenal story with a beginning, middle and end, both in the details and in the musicality. Like her producers she worked with, like the musical story, they take you on 10 out of 10. I love clarity in a story. I love for it to just come at me. I will take a memoir in an album any day if it is like this because I still can't stop listening to it. And I think how easy it is to understand is a part of what makes it such a good story.
- [73:29]
C
It's incredible, actually. It's also, you have to listen to it in sequence, which I love. You know, you have to follow the thread. It has a beginning, middle and end. And her anger at the start, she's really docile and okay and this and that. And it's kind of much later on where she finally gets mad when she does the four chan Stan. And she's finally like, you're not even hot. Which is the stage we all have to reach in a breakup. But you get. Cause remember, she was caught on Rhea and everyone knew she'd been on Rhea and there was this whole, whole thing. But now we know why, like, she's singing it to us in that song because she's.
- [74:01]
B
She was trying to find his profile and then she was cross checking it with who we followed on Instagram. To which I say, yes, of course. Detective work on point. And it's also like, it's always so funny when someone famous and rich has the same behavior you do. And you're just like, we're all just people. We're all just people on Instagram checking who someone else follows.
- [74:19]
C
And even at the beginning, like, of Posse palace, the way it's like the Stranger Things music, like, like. It's such a diss. It's such a diss. It's just incredible.
- [74:26]
B
It's so good. Can I ask what everyone's favorite song is and why? Or what your least favorite song is.
- [74:31]
D
And why I do think that Pussy palace is my favorite song. Even though it is the one that is a little bit kink Shamey, potentially, with the, you know, bag full of dildos and lube and hundreds of Trojans and you're so broken. That is maybe not ideal, but it's so good.
- [74:49]
C
So good.
- [74:50]
A
Also, where are you supposed to keep the toys you want Them all out. Like, what? What's going on?
- [74:54]
B
Not loose in a bag. Not loose in a Dwayne Reed.
- [74:57]
D
Well, no, the bag was tied. It wasn't loose.
- [74:59]
C
It was tied.
- [74:59]
B
Okay, but it was loose inside the Duane Reade bag. No.
- [75:02]
D
I know one of my friends and I had a whole debate about this. About, is this. Was she being shamey or was she just noting the details? And I started out on the side of, like, she's just noting the details. And my friend really managed to bring me over to the side of, like, that particular part of the song is.
- [75:16]
B
A little bit shamey.
- [75:17]
D
But I do think ultimately that's the best song.
- [75:19]
B
Can I bring in another piece from our final bucket? Which is how the Internet discourse elevates or doesn't elevate our understanding, which is that she also gave an interview, Katie, where she said, I think sometimes I kink shame my husband because he asked for certain things sexually. And I'm like, I'm not fucking doing that. Or like, I have a headache. I'm going to bed. Which then gives a really dark coloring to her noting butt plugs, which you can think is something specifically that she wasn't into, but. But then leads to that dark thought that, like, oh, so then he had to get it somewhere because you wouldn't do it. But then in the music, she says, you made me your Madonna, but I want to be your whore. Please, sir, can I have some more? But then an interview said. Pretty much said, no, I don't want.
- [76:00]
D
I'm not gonna do that.
- [76:01]
C
I do think if you walked into your husband's. What you thought was a dojo, and it's. There's literally, like, that much sex stuff, it would be quite a shocker not to kink shame. It would just be, like, really overwhelming.
- [76:12]
D
Yeah.
- [76:13]
A
Okay.
- [76:14]
D
Can we also discuss the use of dojo? Because whatever that, like, genius lyrics thing on the Internet that, like, annotates was talking about how her use of dojo there is, like, a place to, like, train and meditate and, like, be a man. And, like, that's what she was thinking. It is. But, like, my first thought was, like, she's talking about dojo, the movie dojo cast.
- [76:33]
B
Yes, that's what I thought. I thought.
- [76:35]
D
And I'm so. I think. Anyways, we decided that it's both ultimately, and that Lily Allen is referencing both of those things by calling it a dojo.
- [76:43]
C
I think he does martial arts.
- [76:44]
B
Oh, no.
- [76:45]
C
I think David Arbour does martial arts as well.
- [76:48]
B
Listen, we gotta talk about red flags, right? And I gotta say, having two copies of Don Quixote unopened, both makes it the dojo from Barbie and the Dojo to train your mental male spirit as.
- [77:00]
D
You do one per type of dojo.
- [77:03]
B
One per type of dojo. Christine and Kathy, did you have a favorite SO song?
- [77:07]
C
Mine is Ruminating. I just. I keep fearing between what my favorite song is, but we've all done that spiral, right? But to think back and like, what a creep my husband is. Like, imagine that moment when he says that line and you're like, baby, if it has to happen, do you want to know? It's so disgusting. It's like he's just an animal who can't control himself. And I just. I would find that just so unattractive if my husband ever spoke to me like that. I just can't imagine. Just can't imagine it.
- [77:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [77:33]
D
The sound of that song also captures exactly the feeling of like lying in your bed spiraling. It's like that. It's exactly that feeling. It's so good.
- [77:42]
C
Yeah. Musically, I think it's brilliant musically as well, by the way. I think how it escalates and elevates and some of it's like at the beginning of West End Girl, it's like a fairy tale and then it ends on this nightmare noise. And it's unbelievable.
- [77:54]
A
Yeah. I was gonna say the sound design in Ruminae is specifically sort of engineered to mimic the repetitive thoughts. The way that the lyrics repeat the distortion, it can repeat, represent the mental distortion that you have of actual things happening. So I think, like, the production and the engineering are amazing on this album because they're portraying the anxieties, the sort of circular thinking, the ruminating thoughts. I also liked Dallas Major because it felt very honest and straightforward about like, desire, but also sort of regret and. And grappling with the self abandonment that I had been talking about in the earlier analysis of the album. And so, yeah, and I also just kind of like Dallas Major as an alias. I don't know.
- [78:41]
C
And it's so catchy. Dallas Major, that's the one where I keep going. I'm almost five foot two.
- [78:46]
B
Yeah, my favorite song is Dallas Major for sure. And it's because I love the chorus. It's so simple and it's pulled from the zeitgeist. I hate it here. But the way it musically comes in felt just emotionally exactly what it's like to be on a dating app and putting yourself out there and trying to fuck, even though you're like, I fucking hate this. And I I thought it was fantastic. And I also love how the backup singers sing about her in third person, which I think is also a really interesting choice. And I think this brings us to just tying up some loose ends with the Internet discourse. And I think I just want to. To like one. It just made it so fun to be able to go through their Architectural Digest tours, both of what might be the Pussy palace and then what is their home together and. And to see him, like, not laugh at her jokes or kind of shit on her design. And I think seeing it at the time, you could have been like, what a funny couple that like, ribs each other. And they're so fun. And seeing it in hindsight, you're like, he fucking hates her and wants all the attention. And I think it's so fascinating to be able to go through a memoir journey on top of a memoir journey on top of a memoir journey with all of these Internet details. Okay.
- [80:02]
D
I want to say one thing, which is that. And this is a detail I got from a substack post written by a journalist, but a substack post. So I have not fact checked it. But allegedly that brownstone was just listed coinciding with the release of this album.
- [80:21]
B
Yeah.
- [80:21]
D
Anyways.
- [80:22]
B
For $8 million. Yeah.
- [80:24]
D
But like, perfect. Yeah, perfect. It was like, gorgeous. Yes. Get that money. Everyone's caring about it.
- [80:31]
C
Yeah. Like, you literally listen to West End Girl. You pause it, you go and watch the video about the song and you're.
- [80:37]
B
Like, oh, I could buy that.
- [80:38]
C
It's insane.
- [80:39]
B
Yeah.
- [80:39]
C
And it's such a sinister the way he opens the video and he's like, hi, I've got a wife and kids now. As if he's having an. Why would you speak to somebody from Architectural Digest and pretend that it was somebody you used to shag? Unless you're like a massive disgusting.
- [80:53]
B
Without how this relationship ends. It's a funny bit. Like, he's a comedian. That is a funny bit. Where he was like, welcome to my bachelor pad. And then eight years later was like, architectural Digest, I'm married now. But when you look back on it, you're like, oh, this was in you. You are hitting on anyone who looks at you.
- [81:11]
A
Yeah.
- [81:12]
D
And now it's the biggest merch drop of all time.
- [81:17]
B
What specific.
- [81:18]
D
No, like the townhouse is the merch.
- [81:19]
B
No.
- [81:20]
C
Yeah, the town is the merch.
- [81:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God.
- [81:24]
D
Only one person gets it. But the townhouse is the merch.
- [81:26]
C
I just want one sheet of the handpaper. Like, he really went in on the hand painted wallpaper. But watching it now, it's really sick. Like, I felt like a pervert watching this, like, because I only really know Lily Allen from interviews and when she was a lot younger. Like, I've not been keeping up with her, but she's so. It's really alarming, probably having last seen her in her early 30s, to flip into this video where she's, like, demure housewife. He only refers to her as my wife, which is so strange. And it's almost like he doesn't know what she's famous for. And, like, does he know how Larry. She used to be?
- [82:02]
B
Yeah.
- [82:03]
C
Like, I think he just really wanted a little housewife, too. Yeah. And I think he just wants. Because she references that she likes cooking, and she mentions it in the book. And, like, the kitchen, and she's always cooking, and he really just wants a housewife. He's at home, like, waiting on him and his foot. Like, it's so clear to me watching this. Christina.
- [82:19]
A
There was a lot about this that I struggled with. Because she has done so many things that are so reprehensible, I have a hard time balancing sort of analyzing her art. It's hard to do it on the Internet, especially because it's like, it feels like if you're not constantly adding condemnation to any sort of praise, I worry that people take it as, like, you're not thinking critically. Just seeing the discourse happen across different TikToks, across different posts, across, like, how people are absorbing this album and how people even talk to us about what they wanted this episode to be about.
- [82:51]
B
Yeah, this was a real story. Some people were very mad at us that we were, like, even gonna do it, which feels crazy. But I think, Christina, I think you're hitting on a point that I really thought about a lot, too. It was really bothering me with the Lily Allen of it all that, like, all of her things, like, are reprehensible. And I could think of so many things about Taylor Swift that she's also done. Plus things like, I don't know, personally taking part in 5% of destroying the climate, or personally, like, pushing this capitalism thing or personally whatever. But the Internet allows people to discuss Taylor Swift's lyrics and art while having this conversation off to the side. The Internet did not allow people to discuss Lily Allen's lyrics and art without making sure you had to condemn at the same time. And I think there's this really thin line. One this podcast navigates of, you know, why do you have to condemn an entire person and audit the rights and wrongs before you can discuss them. And why does that mostly apply to women? Almost never to men, and usually only to certain women. And I think, listen, it's a spectrum. Sometimes, like, you have to discuss those rights and wrongs, and other times, you know, what is a new part of Internet culture? And, you know, listen. Lol. This podcast, we talk about this stuff all the time. I love talking things through. I love this discourse. I like having someone just lay it raw and you can discuss it and be like, that fucking Zoe thing's horrible. And this song she wrote speaks to something great. And I think there's something really twisted going on. Is like, that somehow you're not allowed to do that yet. We allow it to happen with literally every male artist that's.
- [84:33]
C
And a male artist who wrote this memoir would never have addressed the things. She addressed, the shitty things she did. Like, she. In her own way. And I don't forgive her for them. She references them, she tries to excuse some of them. And I feel like in a manoir, they would not be talked about at all. It would just be, and here's my ascent to greatness and here's how talented I am. And she's very willing to make herself look bad. And I do respect that. And I think there's probably more love for her this side of the pond as well. Maybe because we'd have kind of grown up with her a bit and kind of seeing her being really messy and being really attacked and losing her kid and all that stuff with her stalker. Whereas if you come to her fresh and all you know about her is the Zoe Kravitz and the. Maybe you really like David Harbour and you hear this album, you'd have a totally different perception on it, wouldn't you?
- [85:19]
A
Yeah. And I would argue that people could see what she did to Zoe Kravitz as a crime.
- [85:23]
B
I think Zoe would have to present it as such. And I think. I know Zoe was like, she attacked me, but she said it in such a way that, like, I don't think she contextualized it as such, but if that is what it is, that then, yeah, it absolutely should be taken seriously and discussed. And then I saw people talking about all of the information on Zoe Kravitz and sort of like the wrongs that she's done in life. And then it felt like talking about two women's wrongs in other instances versus talking about what actually happened between them. And also, you know, we'll never know what it is. They're the ones who know. I don't Know, I just think it's a really interesting conversation of how we morally look at women and to what moral degree they have to hit in order for us to talk about them kindly. And what moral degree we hit to the point where we're ready to throw a woman away in how she's spoken about on the Internet. And obviously, listen, that's just a bigger conversation to get into. But let's do the booktool test for both of them first. We're doing the memoir booktool test. Everyone answers the question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of the their truth? Christina.
- [86:28]
A
I'd say yes and no. I think there was, like, some things that she hadn't processed and then there were some things that she was trying to shape the narrative around. So I don't know how vulnerable you can be around when you're still trying to control the narrative.
- [86:42]
B
Kathy.
- [86:43]
C
I think she is vulnerable. I do think a lot of it through the lens of her having been, like, in like, a stupor, whether it was grief or drugs or alcohol. So that colors the whole thing when you read. But you have to read it with a grain of salt, I think. But I think just the sheer emotion of it made it. It feel very authentic to me. The emotion in it is true, even if a lot of the details, like, may be wrong.
- [87:04]
B
Yeah. Katie.
- [87:05]
D
I think, yes. And I think heavy on the, like, her truth of it.
- [87:09]
B
But, yes, I'm also a. Yes. Vulnerability is the messiest raw shit ever. That woman gave everything, whether she meant to or not. And fully unprocessed. A second question was entertaining to read.
- [87:22]
D
Yes.
- [87:22]
A
I would say I did the audiobook and you can hear her laugh at her own writing sometimes in instances where I wouldn't expect her to laugh. So I thought that brought out some things. I felt like I got to know her as a personality. It did help me know her better for this episode.
- [87:35]
B
Yeah. Kathy.
- [87:37]
C
Yeah, I read it and as I said, In 24 hours. And I was up till 2am Reading it like it was. I couldn't put it down. Like, really couldn't put it down. Highly entertaining.
- [87:44]
D
Yeah, I was very entertained and I did. I flipped back and forth between reading it and listening to different chapters. And I loved both versions.
- [87:52]
B
I was into it, absolutely. Okay, switching to the album. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?
- [87:57]
C
Yes, I would say yes.
- [87:59]
A
In her truth again.
- [88:01]
B
Yes. Second question. Is the album entertaining to listen to? I mean, I think we've all agreed. Yes, but Christina.
- [88:08]
A
Yes, I would say in addition to, like, lyrically I would say even production wise, too. It really just, like, was wonderful to listen to.
- [88:15]
B
Yeah. Okay. And then final question for both. Did reading this memoir and listening to this album elevate your life in any way? And if so, how?
- [88:24]
D
Okay, I'm gonna say yes, big time.
- [88:27]
B
1.
- [88:28]
D
Because every single person I've asked this week. Okay, have you listened to the Lily Allen album? Has been like, oh, my God, yes. And then we've had a very interesting conversation about it also. It's just really fun and good and it's been the soundtrack of my last two weeks and that's been really nice.
- [88:42]
B
I love that, Kathy.
- [88:44]
C
Well, firstly, it elevated my life because you guys asked me to come on and talk about it, which is like the best thing that's happened me all year. I listen to this podcast, I much that I feel like I'm always on it with you. So to actually be on it with you is quite an honor. Absolutely. Like, discourse. As I said, girls, you know, in the pub with my girlfriends, but like, with my heterosexual male friends. I can't believe I've been talking about Lily Allen with them. Like, everyone has listened to it. And like, my 5 year old asked me what a Posse palace was. Okay. It shows how I've been listening to it a little bit too much around the house. And I said, I don't know when I changed the song. And then he forgot about it. Absolutely elevated my life. It's just been such a time. I feel like this week has been. Is this how Taylor Swift fans feel? I don't know.
- [89:24]
B
I wasn't having the same thing. I was like, oh, is this what they're doing all the time?
- [89:27]
A
I get it.
- [89:28]
B
I get it.
- [89:28]
D
Yeah.
- [89:29]
C
Literally best week ever. You know, flitting between the book and the album.
- [89:32]
A
Yeah. I would say it did elevate my life in terms of, like, it gave me a piece of art to dive into and an artist to really, like, contemplate. Like, I said, it was great to digest the problematic elements with other people and see how different audiences were taking, condemning or praising her for different things and trying to synthesize what it means for myself and forming that opinion and then doing this research search and like, I have so much background info on their relationship and how it correlates with the album. That definitely, like, enriches my listening experience too. So I'm gonna say yes.
- [90:05]
B
Yeah, I love all these answers. I'm also a yes. And I'm gonna read this from page eight of the memoir. I tell the truth. I am writing this because writing is what I do. It's both my living and the way I live, the way I make sense of things, the way I try and learn more, my lessons. I am writing this so that if I die today, my daughters can learn from my mistakes. And so that whatever information they may stumble on about me, I imagine them as adolescents googling my name. There will be a version in black and white that will not alter in the retelling. Fuck. I'm writing this so that I can learn from my own mistakes. I am writing this to tell my story because telling stories is important, especially if you are a woman. When women share their stories loudly and clearly and honestly, things begin to change for the better.
- [90:48]
D
Better.
- [90:48]
B
This is my story. And I think that speaks to the book. It speaks to the album. I also think it speaks to all of the fucked up things she's done, which allows us to have a conversation and as a world be like, okay, well, that was fucked up. We don't want to be like that. And that was fucked up. We don't want to be like that. And also, like, yes, you don't grow and get better until you fucking talk about how you were a woman who was assaulted in this incident industry and then dressed up making fun of a woman who was assaulted in this industry. And is that not a better scope on what happens to feminism than anything? And dissecting those layers and how women cause harm against other women while experiencing the same harm. To me, I'm just like, oh, thank you for writing. Thank you for telling your story. Thank you for the discourse. Because, like, that's how you grow and move forward. And like, I don't want to live in a world where everyone has to be perfect. And I wish I could, but we can't be. And so it's really wonderful when people expose all their flaws and ways to help themselves get better versus expose all their flaws. And then I don't know, just be like, I'm the best and I'm fucked up. I feel like she's trying, she's trying. That's it. That's all I have.
- [91:56]
C
Yeah. You guys?
- [91:58]
B
Okay, Kathy, everyone go listen to Cinemale. What are you guys covering lately?
- [92:03]
C
Oh, thank you. So every week my husband Dave and I record our Walk Home from the Movies. So every Sunday we video episode out whatever we happen to be watching. Last week we watched Regretting youg, which we did regret watching. And then we do a lot of TV reviews, typically on Patreon, but over the summer I did do one just like that on the Main feed. And Chelsea came on. It was amazing. And I have never had quite the response I did to your defense of Aiden. Chelsea, people were really mad.
- [92:26]
D
Yeah.
- [92:26]
C
They were like. But doesn't she know what I did?
- [92:28]
B
Hear me joking.
- [92:29]
D
It was so funny.
- [92:30]
C
It was so funny. So anyway, yeah, come over to the cinema and check us out.
- [92:34]
B
Yeah, check them out. When you listen to my episode, please know I was joking. Katie, Katie, what do you want people listening to and following?
- [92:41]
D
Listen to the cinemale. Listen to fixing famous people. Listen to whatever you want to listen to.
- [92:50]
B
All right.
- [92:50]
D
I only podcast in voice notes to Chelsea.
- [92:53]
B
That's true. And I gotta go listen to the ones you sent me about Margaret Atwood. Still, Christina, anything you want to sign off with?
- [92:58]
A
Really anticipating the comments on this one. And I enjoyed having all of you here and. And to, like, process this with me.
- [93:05]
C
Christina. I love how we're on the opposite ends as well. Christina and I are on, like, the opposite end of the Lily Allen spectrum. And then Katie and Chelsea are like, in the middle.
- [93:12]
B
It makes me so this is what a book club is about. Differing perspectives. And if you are listening, you are part of the book club. Get out your damn pencils. Get in the motherfucking comments. This is the book club. Be thoughtful, be kind. Life is hard. Katie brought her gel pen. It's all perfect. Thank you guys so much for being on this episode and. And if you haven't listened to the album, I think you should. Okay, bye. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate, we will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join, leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.