← Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Lucille Ball's Memoir Love, Lucy (with Susan Lieu)
01:41:43
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- [00:01]
Chelsea Devontez
This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things like if you want to practice for.
- [00:11]
Susan Liu
An upcoming interview, ask for advice on.
- [00:13]
Chelsea Devontez
Things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live. This episode is brought to you by Disney's Mufasa the Lion King get tickets now for the ultimate family holiday movie experience. Reunite with the characters you know and the untold story you'd never expect. Witness Mufasa's rise from orphan to king and see how the legendary villain Scar got his name. Disney's Mufasa the Lion King in theaters everywhere. Now the kingdom awaits. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dig into all of the glamour and all of the trash. If you have ever referenced Mariah Carey in therapy, then this might be the podcast for you. I'm your host Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this week we're book clubbing Lucille Ball's autobiography titled Love Lucy, which was published in 1996. But I want to share with you the story of how this memoir even came to be, as told by her daughter in the foreword of the book. So when Lucy passed away, her daughter said it was a surprise when they found out that Lucy had left money for her second husband, but the estate went to her kids and her kids only. And so her daughter and her son begin this years long process of going through her stuff. And then one day, years after her death, they find the manuscript to this memoir which no one knew existed. Lucy had basically done phone calls and interviews with a ghostwriter who transcribed it and put it all together in an as told to memoir. But reportedly Lucy hated the process. She hated opening up and she never put it out because, quote, she was afraid it would hurt Desi so no one knew it existed. And then after Desi died, Lucy set out to work with a new writer and write her memoir. And no one knew that she had already done it. But then three weeks later she died. So when her daughter found this manuscript, she and her brother decided this is what Lucy would have wanted because it's her own story in her own words. And the idea of not wanting to include stuff that hurt Desi will come up a lot in this memoir. As with Every single episode, we tackle tough subjects, so please take care when listening. I cannot wait to talk about this episode. I'm very afraid it's going to be nine hours long. Let's dive in. I don't know how you treat your women in Cuba, but this is the United States and I have my right.
- [02:56]
Susan Liu
I am not arguing about women's right.
- [03:00]
Chelsea Devontez
I am the first one to agree.
- [03:01]
Susan Liu
That women should have all the rights they want.
- [03:04]
Chelsea Devontez
I as long as they stay in their place. That's corner. Oh, you're just as bad as he is, Fred. You men tell us that we have equal rights, but you certainly don't give us a chance to act like it. What do you want? You've got the vote. You wear pants, you drive buses, you wrestle. You go every place you please except the steam room and the ymca.
- [03:27]
Susan Liu
That isn't true.
- [03:28]
Chelsea Devontez
Equal rights means just what it says. Equal rights. Well, that's a good explanation. Oh, you know what she means. Yes, and we want to be treated that way. From now on, everything is equal. We want to be treated exactly as if we were men. My guest today is Vietnamese American author, playwright and performer Susan Liu, who is the creator of her theatrical show £140 How Beauty Killed My Mother, which which received critical acclaim from LA Times, NPR and American Theater. Her debut memoir, the Manicurist Daughter is an Apple Book Pick of the month and Must Listen of the month and has received accolades from the New York Times, NPR Books, Elle magazine and the Washington Post. Susan is also the co founder of Sokola, which is a chocolatier company and she is a proud alumni of Harvard, Yale and Hedgebrook. Susan, hi. Thank you so much for doing this with me.
- [04:26]
Susan Liu
Greetings. I'm so excited to be here.
- [04:28]
Chelsea Devontez
I am absolutely thrilled. So I introduced all my guests with the story of how we first met. So I want to shout out Diana Chang, who match made us via email. However, I was reading Lucille's Not. However, in addition to I was reading this memoir like at 2 in the morning because I've had just, I just can't sleep this week. You know, we're, we're recording this post election. And so at 2 in the morning I'm reading this book and I'm like, you know what? Let's go on Instagram. That's a good thing to do. At 2 in the morning I open my DMs and I find a cookie telling me that my memoir had been nominated for favorite memoir of the year on Goodreads. And there's only 20 memoirs up for the award. And, Susan, you're another one of them. It's you, me, and, like, Salman Rushdie.
- [05:18]
Susan Liu
And, like, Liz Cheney and RuPaul and Whoopi Goldberg. Like, I'm sitting there being like, this is an honor, but I'm probably going to lose.
- [05:25]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, yeah. They're like, go tell people with Goodreads accounts to vote for you. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It's an honor to be nominated. The bus definitely stops here. You think we're gonna win against RuPaul? Like, blessings to you, publisher. But this is. Okay, so there's only 20 books up for this. We're, like, with icons.
- [05:43]
Susan Liu
So how did.
- [05:43]
Chelsea Devontez
It's so cool to be able to, like, be here and be like, wow, look. Look at us.
- [05:49]
Susan Liu
Yeah. Well, then I went on this. This whole rampage. I was like, okay, I'm gonna lose, but I still wanna feel good. So then I was like, oh. Actually, the number of published memoirs in a year is about 400.
- [05:59]
Chelsea Devontez
What?
- [05:59]
Susan Liu
The number of books in general that get pushed down a year about 3 to 4 million. And a million are actually published. The rest are self published. So I'm kind of sitting here going, like, you know what? I sort of made it.
- [06:12]
Chelsea Devontez
Wow, Susan. I had the opposite reaction. I was like, I'm incredible. I'm a God. This is. This is huge. I don't. I never care if I make it to the next round. I'm like, we got nominated out of 20 memoirs for best memoir of the year. Like, how do I take out a banner and fly it by everyone I hate?
- [06:31]
Susan Liu
I think I should maybe get the number to your therapist, because I'm like, something's not working for me. You know, I was just sitting there being like, I'm probably gonna lose. Let me just make myself feel better. But this is why I love Lucille's memoir so much, is because she failed so much. She had so much grit that me having any pity about myself is just laughable, you know? Like, she just. She inspires me to. To work so hard that I do have a nervous breakdown.
- [06:59]
Chelsea Devontez
I actually had that, like, the day I found that nomination, had been actually crying tears again about my memoir, about having to redact it and how it made it less of a book. And I was like, it's horrible. And then the nomination came, and I was like, it's amazing. So I'm on a rollercoaster.
- [07:17]
Susan Liu
Wait, can I be honest, though? Like, I was like, oh, I got nominated. I go to vote for myself, and then I get lost in the Goodreads. Reviews of 3 stars and less. Oh, no, I didn't. I'm not supposed to. And then I did it, and I read it, and I was like, but I'm a real person, guys. I'm a real person.
- [07:36]
Chelsea Devontez
I need to talk to someone about this, because I try and stay away from Goodreads like I am in a program, a sobriety program. I'd like to say I've been sober of Goodreads for four months, but going to see that we had been nominated and not inching my finger down. Impossible.
- [07:54]
Susan Liu
Can I read a quote from Lucille Ball that talks about this, please? The irony is that in our terrible need to be loved, we pick an arena where we can also be rejected by the greatest possible number of people. Nothing's quite so wonderful as those waves of love and applause splashing over the footlights. And nothing quite as shattering as when an audience doesn't like you. All you've got to sell is yourself. Rejection can't be anything but highly personal.
- [08:26]
Chelsea Devontez
I highlighted that, too. You picked Lucille Ball's memoir, which no one had ever picked before. And I was never in a rush to read it because I heard it was a little dry. And I loved reading this. It found me at the perfect time in my life.
- [08:42]
Susan Liu
I have to say that growing up, I watched her and, okay, this is the most naive thing I'll ever say in public.
- [08:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Tell me.
- [08:49]
Susan Liu
She was so free and candid and funny and natural and amazing that I didn't think women were oppressed. I grew up as a kid thinking women, like, what's all this women's empowerment stuff? Or, why do we have to do Girl Scouts? Like, I did it, but it was more like I didn't actually get how much of a pioneer she was at the time. And I also didn't get what society expected us as women. Right.
- [09:19]
Chelsea Devontez
Like, and that because Lucy was allowed and celebrated, she was so allowed.
- [09:24]
Susan Liu
And so she's an icon in my childhood because I was just like, there's no limits to being fully expressive.
- [09:32]
Chelsea Devontez
I think that's actually a really happy story. That's what we want, right? Shows like that so that little girls watching go like, we're, you know, women are people, too, and funny.
- [09:41]
Susan Liu
We're marginalized.
- [09:42]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. I mean, like, it's kind of, like, as good as it gets. I. Yeah, I'm actually, like, kind of shocked we've never covered this memoir because of who she is and what the podcast is about. But I. I say this on the podcast all the time that I feel like certain books find me in divine moments, like they were supposed to come in that moment. I truly believe that. Post this. Hell Election Week. Susan, I needed you to pick this book. And, like, this was the book that I needed at 2 in the morning this week. Like, I feel a little bit more alive because of Lucy's journey and the.
- [10:14]
Susan Liu
I Love Lucy that we know today took 23 years to create.
- [10:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes. Yeah.
- [10:20]
Susan Liu
The level of iteration, the level of failure. I mean, like, the level of, like, suppression that she had in her life. The level of not knowing what she was supposed to be, but she knew inside there was something, but she hadn't hit it yet. But 23 years of iteration and failure.
- [10:36]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And I mean, she's. She's 40 years old. She's 40 years old when that show comes out. And it's 40 years old in that year, which is like 98 years old. Like, you know what I mean? Like, reading that, she was doing that at 40, in a year when they're like, women are dead at 20. Like, that was incredible.
- [10:54]
Susan Liu
And she just had her kid at 39 and another kid at 41. Like, this is like even having a kid that quote, unquote, late now is a super geriatric pregnancy. Like, it's so judged. And she was doing it then in the 50s and 60s and was the.
- [11:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Most popular woman alive. Yeah, we gotta get into all of it. Okay, so let's start at her childhood. So obviously, biggest complaint in the book, if you know me, is there's so much memory mush of the childhood where it's just like lots and lots and lots and lots. But I want to highlight a few things. She grows up in New York State. They're extremely poor family. Her mom and dad get married really young. They divorce. Her mom is this single mom salesman. And she really, really wants to help her mom. And she kind of becomes the woman of the house at like, 11 years old. And a lot of her ambition to become a star is, how do I get enough money and power to take care of my mom? What did you think of that part of the book?
- [11:54]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God. Age 4 to 8, her mom is so depressed that she's. She and her kid brother are not even in the same house, living at different people's houses. And then 9 to 11, she was responsible for making dinner and doing all the chores because her mom is so working so hard. Her grandmother's dying, like 9 to 11, she's doing that. You know, I mean, maybe it was a situation of the time. You know, she was born in 1911. We got prohibition, we got depression. But I'm still sitting here going like, that is so hard.
- [12:26]
Chelsea Devontez
It's so young.
- [12:27]
Susan Liu
Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, I do think you're right about, like, where's the emotion in all of this? Because she just kind of sums it up where she was like, you know, throughout the book, she just drops like bombs of facts on you, where you're sitting there going like, are you serious? And then she ties it up with a wise bow and then drops another thing on you. Yeah, here she goes in reflecting about her childhood. People with happy childhoods never overdo. They don't strive or exert themselves. They're moderate, pleasant, well liked and good citizens. Society needs them. But the tremendous drive and determination necessary to succeed in any field, not only show business often seems to be rooted in a disturbed childhood. I wasn't an unloved or unwanted child, but I was moved around a lot. And then death and cruel circumstances brought many painful separations. There was an Italian typing teacher I was crazy about, but once she made me so mad I threw a typewriter at her.
- [13:24]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, we have highlighted all the same quotes. I have to ask you about this. So first, what do you think about her disturbed childhood theory, which is a popular theory that, like, to be a great comedian, you often are a little, you know, you got some stuff to work on. What do you think of that?
- [13:38]
Susan Liu
I mean, I think it's true. Like, I remember. So my mom died from a botched plastic surgery when I was 11. And that was very hard for me because my family never let me have any emotion around it. In fact, we've never talked about my mom's death to this day. And it's been almost three decades. And so part of me thinks, like, wow, that really sucks. Is there a God? But also, one of my many wonderful therapists was like, when you can have a deeper range of emotion with tragedy and trauma, that expands your range for joy, right? And it really, like, deeply connects you with the human experience. And so that is the silver lining of the gift of all of that. And so I see with Lucy, she's able to take this and set. And she says it repeatedly, like, I was given challenges and I rose to them, you know. And I think for a woman of her time, that's the interpretation, that's how you're gonna move forward with it. Cause she suffered a lot. She suffered a lot from her childhood, her marriage, to get to where she is. And if you don't make light of it and turn that narrative, you aren't gonna have post traumatic growth. You're gonna dwell in that valley of depression. And so she needed to do that. And she also did like two to three hours of therapy a day at some point.
- [14:52]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I. I love, like, your capacity for sadness and darkness, kind of broadening your capacity for joy. Holy shit, is that me? Because oftentimes people are like, you're the happiest person I know. And I'm like, yeah, the range, though. The range inside. And she. There's another story in her book that is the other, like, really big childhood story that I actually had never even heard this about her. So. And it's pretty important to who she is. She is over hanging out with her dad, and that's her stepdad because her.
- [15:25]
Susan Liu
Real dad dies when she's four in a telephone pole incident in a storm from typhoid fever.
- [15:30]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, my God. Wait a minute. The guy she's calling Daddy the whole book.
- [15:34]
Susan Liu
No, that's her grandfather, which is kind of weird. Her stepfather is Ed.
- [15:39]
Chelsea Devontez
That's right. And. But Ed goes away as well.
- [15:41]
Susan Liu
Yeah, they get divorced. And he's really strange.
- [15:43]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, so the daddy I'm talking about is her grandfather is granddaddy. So let's. We'll go with granddaddy. Even though she said my daddy so many times, this actually got stuck in my head as her dad. Okay. So her granddad is teaching her brother.
- [15:57]
Susan Liu
Her little brother Freddie.
- [15:59]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. How to shoot a gun. And they're like, we come in the yard of our house, but we're gonna aim towards this lot that's like fully empty or something. Basically, they're aiming towards something that is thought to be safe. And it's her. It's another little girl. And then there is this little neighborhood kid, Warner, who, like, runs all across the neighborhood. And his mom will come out on the porch and be like, warner, get home. And he like, jumps up and he races home. So Warner is like peeking around a bush, like, watching this gunshot practice. And granddaddy is like, warner, come sit here and don't move. He's teaching them how to shoot a gun. Then this little girl, nameless, they've never seen her again. It's her turn. And she's like, I'm going to shoot the gun. And he teaches this little child how to shoot the gun. And as soon as she shoots it, his mom yells, warner. And Warner jumps up and runs in front of the gun. Dumb, but dumb from everyone. He's a child. Like, why are we doing gunshot practice in our front yard? And so anyways, It's a really, really tiny bullet. I guess it's like a tiny gun, but it hits him really specifically in the spine, and he is paralyzed from the waist down. So the story is really enduring, but the big takeaway from it is that when they go to court, Warner's family, like, wants justice. And Lucy feels like they did her granddaddy wrong because he was found guilty. And then later, they sue him, like, in civil court for his house, and he loses his house. But because there was, like, fees and mortgages on it, it's not like it went to that family. They just, like, took it away from him. And he kind of loses his mind after that and is, you know, unhoused and really struggling. And Lucy is like, we both lost our faith in democracy at that point because justice wasn't served. But it has some nuance to it, because from another angle, you're like, this was the only adult who was, like, shooting a gun in the front yard with a bunch of children. So what did you think of this story?
- [18:00]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God, it totally devastated me.
- [18:02]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:03]
Susan Liu
Because that's a downfall of Daddy. But also, like, the house was auctioned at 2,200, even though it was worth 4,000. Like, it totally bankrupts him. He used to be the man of the house. Right. When Lucille didn't have a lot of father figures at that point, and she said, we didn't want to go to court. Daddy would have paid for Warner's bills all the way to the end, but it didn't happen that way. And it puts her into total despair with the family. And it's just so unfortunate that he runs in the wrong direction of the bullet, and it just, like, it just hits him right in the spine at the wrong place. And the other girl, she just disappears from the story. Nothing ever happens ever again.
- [18:43]
Chelsea Devontez
But also, like, she's a child. Like, why was she holding a gun? Like, they're all children.
- [18:48]
Susan Liu
I know.
- [18:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Except for Granddaddy. It was so hard because from her point of view, she's like, this radicalizes him, ruins our life, ruins our faith in democracy. But when I put myself in Warner's mom's shoes, I can also see how that family was like, we want pain and vengeance.
- [19:01]
Susan Liu
And, you know, this is like, the early 1920s. So it's just very unfortunate because Daddy now, not believing in democracy, turned them into a communist. And later that catches up with Lucy.
- [19:14]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Okay, so let's put a pin in that. That's coming back. So Lucy, she knows she's going to make her way and be something special. She does pageants, she does modeling. She's told she is not photogenic. She's told she's not talented. She gets into theater schools and then they write her mom and they're like, you have wasted all the money and loans you've taken out. This child is untalented. Fucking hilarious. It makes it. I loved it. There is nothing better in the world than reading in a book that multiple people told the most talented woman alive that she is not talented. Like, if you cannot live on that anecdote for 10 years, then I cannot help you. And she writes this. She said, here's what I advise any young struggling actress today. The important thing is to develop as a woman first and a performer second. You wouldn't prostitute yourself to get apart. Not if you're in your right mind. You won't be happy whatever you do, unless you're comfortable with your own conscience. Keep your head up, keep your shoulders back. Keep your self respect. Be nice, be smart. And remember that there are practically no overnight successes. Before that brilliant hit performance came 10, 15, sometimes 20 years in the salt mines, sweating it out. And so I loved her saying, develop as a woman first and a performer second. Because I definitely came out a performer first and left that other part behind for a long time, but never, I think, for her. And I know from my own experience, you don't actually become the performer you're meant to be until you're able to become the person you're meant to be first. That's how I feel.
- [20:45]
Susan Liu
When I read that part, I was like, it gave me hope because I see all these TikTok sensations with their cucumber salads. Like, I'm just sitting there going, like, if they can be so successful, why can't I? You know, like, it makes me feel like overnight success is so possible. And if I'm not that, then, like, I'm not enough. And I'm sitting here also reading a memoir of this woman who has iterated so many times to become this icon that we'll never forget long after we die, right? She was always gonna be on mugs, right? So I don't know, it was just humbling to read that because in this era of social media, I kind of feel like, why don't I have a billion followers?
- [21:24]
Chelsea Devontez
Reading her story makes you go like, oh, right, oh, right. Like, get right with yourself. Yes, you can make a cucumber salad. However, that person does have to continue selling cucumber salads. So it's like. And I hope that's their dream. But she uses the word prostitute yourself out, which obviously, you know, whatever. We don't use that word anymore. But I think it's the same thing of, like, okay, well, to have success, you could just, I don't know, do baking tiktoks that you fucking hate and get followers. But if you hate it, like, what's the point? Like, you're never gonna be your truest star until you are your truest self. Right, Right. Yeah.
- [21:56]
Susan Liu
And. Oh, God, man, she hit the pavement. She hit the pavement so hard she had holes in her shoes in New York City. And then she stuffed it with newspaper. Okay.
- [22:09]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I loved that. She also. Okay, so she wrote this sentence, you know, I had the usual proposals and blah, blah. I was like, wait, I'm sorry, what? Like, multiple men are proposing to her after being told she is not photogenic. They're like, you there. You should be a model. And she's like, I know. And she models clothes. And one of the models teaches her how to go out to dinner on a date and steal food and hide it in your purse so that you can eat for the rest of the week. I said hiding dinner in your purse. Woman after my own heart. Yeah.
- [22:38]
Susan Liu
She's like, line your purse with linen and then put the partner person and extra roles.
- [22:44]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, it was so good. So then she's modeling, and there's so much in this book, but she's modeling. And she is, like, getting these background roles in shows, but she knows that she's going to be so bad that she's always going to be fired before the show even gets up. And that happens over and over and over again. And she just keeps doing it until one day she's afflicted with insane pain in her legs.
- [23:08]
Susan Liu
Rheumatoid arthritis. Yeah.
- [23:10]
Chelsea Devontez
And they're like, you have early arthritis. This will never go away. It does. And this one doctor is like, I've got some horse medicine experimental. How about we shoot you up with that? And she's like, do it until I run out of money. And then she runs out of money, leaves the hospital. She says one of her bows takes her to the training wheelchair. She has horse medicine with her, which, honestly, what do we think? We think she's been in a K hole this whole time. Like, what are they doing to her legs? Is it ketamine? That, to me, is what horse medicine is. I don't know. But she goes back home and recovers from. She kind of seemingly doesn't really know if it's the horse medicine. Or if it just, just went away.
- [23:48]
Susan Liu
I don't. And then one leg is shorter than the other and I have to wear a 20 pound bag on the other foot.
- [23:52]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, that's right. And walk around. But then she's back up and running. She's like going back to New York to be a model. And she gets this break in this woman's shop where she is always modeling hats. And then later becomes a model where she is the last model to walk. Which means what? She's the bride. She's always the bride. In the show. Everyone comes to see what's the wedding dress. And she's modeling. And then she's like standing for painters. Like, I'll be the model for your painting. And this is incredible. Okay, so she's been doing this for a little bit. She's not even 20 years old, everyone. And she stands for a painting. Let me read it. To my great surprise, he sold the painting to Chesterfield cigarettes. And overnight my face and figure were on billboards all over town. So she becomes a famous billboard girl. And she said. One humid July, I was browsing in front of the Palace Theater when I heard a woman's voice at my elbow. Lucille Ball, just the person I was looking for. How would you like to go to Hollywood? I turned and saw Sylvia Hollow. Who? What? You're the latest Chesterfield girl, aren't you? Sylvia continued. Well, Sam Goldwyn, the producer, needs a dozen well known poster girls for a new Eddie Cantor movie, Roman scandals. He had 12 all picked, but one just backed out. And they're scheduled to leave for Hollywood in three days. Who do I see? I interrupted. Where do I go? And she's like, go down that way. And she's like, thanks and runs and is like, get me to Hollywood.
- [25:17]
Susan Liu
Three days later, she's going to Hollywood.
- [25:20]
Chelsea Devontez
With a movie contract. It's so good. And it's like from being like, sure, you can paint me. Like, yeah, they sell her image. Oh, it's so good.
- [25:31]
Susan Liu
And then she's all over Times Square. Like, it's just like luck. This is the strike of luck. And this is like big time.
- [25:38]
Chelsea Devontez
You're so right. That is when luck is totally a part of it. And she's in this movie, Roman Scandals, as a Goldwing girl. And there's so many stories from shooting this, but it was only supposed to be like some amount of weeks and they end up extending it. And they're shooting and shooting and shooting. And at one point the 12 girls are like strung up to the ceiling and like, they have to like, Stay there. And she's like, it was too much work and took too much time to get us down. So in between takes, we just stayed there strapped and hanging from the ceiling. One time I was like, so weak and tired and one of the ropes was, like, breaking and I just fell. And like, a guy below, a strong man below, like, caught her and she was like, thanks. And they strung her back up to the ceiling.
- [26:18]
Susan Liu
Those were the times.
- [26:19]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, the movie business. A lot of really horrible movie contracts where they, like, own you into work hours that are almost like indentured servitude, but it's like under the guise of glamour. Yeah.
- [26:34]
Susan Liu
I mean, the number of times she just casually is like, yeah. And then this, like, powder was, like, fanned into my eye, and then my eyes were paralyzed for a few days or I was in a wine bat for three days and I got a sickness. You know, I was sitting there going, like, what?
- [26:47]
Chelsea Devontez
The amount of injuries she has withstood is just unbelievable. And then she's like, oh, they're going to re up my contract. But then she doesn't and she's fired. But she goes on a date that night and the guy is like, hey, I hear the hiring models and you should lie and say that you worked at, I think, Bergdorf or something. She's like, all right. Then she goes there and they're like, where have you worked before? And she's like, bergdorf. And then she lies to him and he's like, you're clearly lying, but you're hired. And she's like, yay. And she then has another contract and she brings her mom and granddaddy out to take care of them. And she says they're never allowed to work ever again in their life. And like, finally, at like 21 years, she's in Hollywood in show business and can take care of her family.
- [27:32]
Susan Liu
It's so sweet because she gets him out of a dire situation. But even then, like, she calls it her second major break. It's a three month contract that turns into seven years. But at the time. And what I love about this memoir is she's always telling us how much she's making per week. You know, like that level of transparency. We need more salary transparency out there, you know? And she's telling you, oh, my God.
- [27:53]
Chelsea Devontez
I wish I could go back into my memoir and write. I did actually, I wrote a lot of money stuff. Or it's like this commercial paid this much money. Like, you're right. She's always like, then my salary was this. This is How I got the raise. This is how they docked me. Here's what this person was making. She's very shrewd at business.
- [28:08]
Susan Liu
I love it.
- [28:09]
Chelsea Devontez
I love it too. Okay, so then we get into this incredible story where the big studio she's working for is rko. And a star there is Ginger Rogers. Now, we covered Ginger Rogers memoir on this podcast, and it was wild. It was wild, wild, wild. And I love that I read that first because she meets Ginger Rogers mom, Layla Rogers, who really is the essential momager. When you think momager, that was Layla. She made Ginger's career. It's not in this book, but she's also a staunch Christian Scientist. Oh, she said, yeah, right. There's a lot of surprises in Ginger's book. But Lucy writes, Layla was the first person to see me as a clown with glamour. A clown with glamour. Come on, y'all. You know that's the motherfucking thesis of this podcast. Okay? She pulled my frizzy hair back off my brow and had a couple of my side teeth straightened. Then she sent me to a voice teacher and told me to lower my high squeaky voice by four tones. Layla used to say, a comedian who does Ginger style of comedy has to be good looking. You should be able to sit and watch her read the telephone book. And with either Lucille or Ginger, you can. So in Ginger Rogers book, my guest and I were like, layla Rogers is maybe a weird scam. And like, forced Lucille Ball to to study with her and was like. And takes all credit from Lucy's own account. Layla made her. Layla got her into classes, fought for her, taught her everything she knows. And she throughout the book is constantly like, thinking back to Layla being like, she helped make my career. And Layla made tons of people's career. Yeah. And then also in Ginger's book, they're really sober. They're like, no alcohol, nothing. And she's always like, we had amazing tennis parties where we all ate spaghetti and drank Sprite. I was like, that sounds disgusting. And in this memoir, she's like, I remember the spaghetti parties and playing tennis, and she loves her. So what did you think of Layla Rogers and that whole thing?
- [30:13]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God, I need Layla as a momager right now. Because she's grooming Lucille. She's telling her, you're not in the show. Go watch the rehearsals. Just keep watching. You're gonna learn that way. And then when she thinks Lucille is ready, she calls her at 10am being like, oh, my God, the lead in this play is unavailable. Can you take her on can you learn the lines and be ready by showtime at 8pm Lucille goes, yes. There's not a full rehearsal. She learns all the blocking, kills it. And then Layla uses this as leverage to all the RKO producers and directors being like, she's ready. You don't think she has talent? She's ready. Was that good? It was. And I'm sitting there going. And then Lucy later finds out that Laila just, like, spun it up herself and, like, somehow had the lead not play that night. Like, I'm sitting there going, like, laila, that was really brilliant. And also, Lucille, like, another need for a nervous breakdown. Like, this could have been so crazy. But it tested her and pushed her to the limits. It gave her a safe container and then also leverage for her career. I'm like, layla, I need you.
- [31:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay. I am finding out from our producer, Christina. It's actually pronounced Leela. Leela.
- [31:24]
Susan Liu
Whoops.
- [31:24]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, so put a pin in Leela. We will come back to it. But Lucille's lesson from this, she says, I have a theory about the assists we get in life. Only rarely can we repay those who helped us, but we can pass that help along to others. That's why in 1958, I reactivated Lela's theater workshop with two dozen talented kids trying to get started in show business. My accountants referred to it as Lucy's Folly, but Marie Torre called it the most practical workshop in television. I found it deeply satisfying. It was my way of thanking Leela. And I have been thinking, it's a tangent. I won't go into it, but I've been. I've been mulling on this, like, teaching thing. And, like, reading this in the book, I'm like, I've got to teach this stuff. Like, to pay it forward to the people who gave it to you. It's such a cool takeaway.
- [32:14]
Susan Liu
And to be in the position to send the ladder down, right? Like, what's another million to her at that point? You know what I mean? And now she can catapult all these other people's careers. Time and time again, she shows how Desi is actually a very kind person, even though he's fraught with a lot of conflict. And then she does it for herself, right? And she'll just drop it right there. And I'd be like, yes, you are a good woman.
- [32:36]
Chelsea Devontez
She is good. You can tell. She. Oh, I just love her so much. Okay, so the next story, you know, she's in the business. Tons of gigs. You can read her salaries in the memoir. It's great. And Then one day, this is where I'm like, okay, Lucy, I, I just tell us the whole story. But she didn't. She said, then, I don't know quite how it happened. This producer I know fell in love with me. He wanted to divorce his wife, leave his children, go against his religion and his conscience to marry me. Yeah, there is a chance. He's just wackadoo and was like, I'll leave everything behind from. For this girl I had small talk with once, maybe. But I have a feeling something happened. What did, what did you think? Because then he's like, marry me. And she said, because I was ambitious and because he was a great catch, I struggled with my conscience long and painfully. Friends told me, why don't you marry him? He's a real talent and he'll make your career. But in the end, I finally found the courage to turn him down. This decision put into motion a lot of unforeseen consequences. The producer, of course, suffered from a bad case of wounded pride. He immediately lost all interest in me and my career. But his wife heard some studio gossip after the romance was busted and over and really lowered the boom. She had influence through some important relatives. So she was able to decree that one Lucille Ball would never appear ever again in any picture at rko. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Thrive Cosmetics is my favorite makeup. They have thousands of five star reviews, they're cruelty free and they have my brand new favorite product that I have used every single day since I got it. It is their brilliant eye brightener, the shade Stella. I use this in conjunction with their Liquid Lash Extensions mascara. And it is gorgeous. I get so many compliments. It truly highlights your eyes and creates the most beautiful eyeshadow that has depth. Brighten your holiday look with Thrive Cosmetics, Luxury beauty that gives back. Right now, you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous trash that's thrive Cosmetics. C A U S e M E T-I C S.com glamorous trash for 20% off your first order, go get that brilliant eye brightener shade, Stella. This episode is brought to you by US Cellular. You shouldn't have to sacrifice a great experience to get a great deal. And U.S. cellular Prepaid agrees. Which is why right now you'll get a new Samsung Galaxy A15.5G for free without any hidden fees like the device activation fees you get with those other prep providers. So you can use your free phone with US Cellular's nationwide 5G coverage. To stay connected to the ones you love without having to make sacrifices. Terms apply. Visit uscellular.com for details.
- [35:32]
Susan Liu
Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache.
- [35:34]
Chelsea Devontez
Days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for adults with migraine with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor.
- [35:53]
Susan Liu
Effects of Botox may spread hours to.
- [35:54]
Chelsea Devontez
Weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk.
- [36:06]
Susan Liu
Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck.
- [36:08]
Chelsea Devontez
And injection site pain, fatigue and headache.
- [36:10]
Susan Liu
Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness.
- [36:14]
Chelsea Devontez
Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Ask your doctor and visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. Okay, so now she's clearly admitting there was a romance, but is like, I don't know how he thought he would leave his wife. Right?
- [36:46]
Susan Liu
Yeah. I mean, you gotta do a little bit more than some secretive hand holding at a cafe booth. You know what I mean? But also like, but it sucks. Like, Lucille did the right thing. But as the wife, like, of course you'd understand. You'd be like, oh my God, the other woman. You know, But Lucille did the right thing. And I thought that was just really awful because again, she didn't have any leverage. Later, Lucille talks about just like the amount of tension in Hollywood where all the writers and actors just felt like they were outsiders compared to all the directors and producers and that they just were just puppets to all of them. Right. Whereas right now I feel like very A list celebrities have a lot more leverage than what she was talking about.
- [37:25]
Chelsea Devontez
She also, than the A list people did that.
- [37:27]
Susan Liu
Yeah. I mean, she did admit she was a B list actor for a while, but I was just sitting there being like, damn, you did the right thing. And it still backfired.
- [37:35]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. But also what is nuts is that at first she did do the wrong thing. Like she's not really telling us here, but I'm pretty sure she was just like, I'll have an affair with this producer. Just don't leave your wife for me. But then this is the best part. And again, this was an anecdote I will live on. I will dine off this energetically for the rest of my career, she said, because she gets band and they're like, you're never going to work here again at rko. She said I had to look somewhere else for a showcase for my talent, how to. How to make a living. And she said I had to give Hollywood a rest and look around for other showcases. I wound up trying radio. This turned out to be one of the smartest things I ever did. And so then she ends up getting this huge career boost because on the radio she can be funny in all the ways. She knows how to be funny without her appearance maybe getting in the way of the stereotype people have when watching her. And she's like, can flourish and becomes this like funny character actress.
- [38:33]
Susan Liu
I mean, she's able to do so many things she can't do on stage. She admits that she sucks at dancing, at singing, you know, and she, she's, she is glamorous, but not fully glamorous. Right. Because there's this.
- [38:44]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, she's a glamorous clown. Yeah.
- [38:46]
Susan Liu
And she says at one point there's a part of me that just feels strangulated. Like. Like there's a part of me that I can't release. So for her to give her that opportunity of the medium of radio and later she takes on with the medium of tv, she's this pioneer that says, you know what, I'm gonna get a little bit more leverage. I'm gonna expand my range, my talent, and also I'm gonna expose myself to more audience.
- [39:11]
Chelsea Devontez
I love that this dude who fucked her over ends up being a good thing. So she's getting pretty successful and it is time for her to get a personal maid, which I guess was of the times. It's like a maid, secretary, assistant. This also sounds like a really intense position. And she said, when I was doing this show on Broadway in 1960 and living in the Upper east side apartment house, I was told that black people were not allowed to ride in the front elevator. I changed that rule in a hurry. Harry and I were the first to integrate those 1300amonth apartments, I'm glad to say. So that's also like, thank God she is also going to be the first interracial couple on television, which, quick side note, technically it's inter ethnic because Desi is Cuban via Spanish heritage, and Latine is not a race, it's an ethnicity. But that's not language or understanding they had. Then everyone saw it and referred to it as an interracial relationship. So that's how I'm going to talk about it in this episode. So obviously she pioneered that and has this side to her that a lot of people at the time did not.
- [40:22]
Susan Liu
Can we also note that Harriet is with her her entire career and never leaves. And later when she talks about Desilu Studios, she's like, we eventually have a thousand employees and no one ever left. After five years, like, I just, I'm starting to sense this fierce loyalty towards her world, you know, where like, once you're in her orbit, like, you don't want to leave. You know, people say, like, celebrities are just awful, right? And I'm just feeling like time and time again, Lucy was just such a good person. But also, Harriet also saw all the shit.
- [40:50]
Chelsea Devontez
Harriet saw some shit like, okay, we're gonna get to this in a second. But when she surprise marries Desi, Harriet shows up with all of her clothes and says, okay, who did we marry?
- [41:03]
Susan Liu
Yeah, that we were like, damn.
- [41:05]
Chelsea Devontez
Like, I do want Harriet to have a big, flourishing private life that I'm not sure she had, but this was a. That was a very sweet line in some ways. Okay, so this is where she's going to meet desi. She's now 28 years old. She's been working steadily up and down the producer thing, but, you know, she is successful enough that she does have a personal maid and there's a new show in town and everyone agrees the star of that show is 22 year old Cuban Desi Arnaz. And the show is called Too Many Girls. What a title. That could be the title of this podcast, Too Many Girls. So she's like, it's really hard to make me laugh. I observe, I smile. But when I'm really amused, you can hear me a block away. And Desi just has her laughing and laughing and laughing. And then she sees him on set for a movie and she's like all dressed up. And he says, what a honk of a woman.
- [41:59]
Susan Liu
I read that and I wasn't sure if that was good or bad.
- [42:02]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I think it's good. I think it's like, damn, that's a woman. I think a honk of a woman. Hilarious. He's like, come to dinner with me. And she said, I Fell in love with Desi in five minutes. There was only one thing better than looking at Desi, and that was talking to him, which is really beautiful. And she tells a lot of Desi's story in this book. But to give you the headline, he was raised extremely rich, Extremely rich with a lot of privilege. And then communism came to Cuba. And, like, they literally. It's kind of a long, winding story, but their home ends up being set on fire. They flee to America and where they were really rich. Now in America, they are extremely poor. His father and him live in a basement with several rats. His dad leaves his mom for an American woman he fell in love with. And Desi grows up extremely poor from that point on and ends up driving a banana truck as his first job. What did you think of the whole Desi story?
- [43:03]
Susan Liu
I had no idea about his background. When you just see a star on. On screen, you're just like, oh, they're so charismatic. Of course they made it. But, I mean, yeah. And his riches to rags to riches story is, like, nuts because his mom was the heir to Bacardi rum. At age 16. He has three houses himself. And then it all goes downhill. But then when he comes to Miami, after three years of, like, living this way and driving the banana truck at 19, he just joins Aruba band. He goes on tour. They're starting to make it. He knows he's not paid his worth. He goes back to a nightclub in. I think it's. Is it Miami?
- [43:48]
Chelsea Devontez
He's at the last $10. And he strutted into Mother Kelly's.
- [43:54]
Susan Liu
Yes. So he's in Mother Kelly's. He uses his last $10 to buy a fat steak, a $2 Havana cigar, champagne. He shows clippings to the owner, being like, they want me back.
- [44:05]
Chelsea Devontez
They want me to be big band. Everyone wants me.
- [44:08]
Susan Liu
Yeah. And then the guy was like, but I want you. Gives him a gig to start a band at the club, which later then gets picked up because a New York agent sees him. And then he's a headlining attraction in a New York nightclub, which leads him to the lead role in the Broadway show Too Many Girls.
- [44:26]
Chelsea Devontez
It's incredible. And he and Lucy are so similar that way in that they're gonna, like, charisma themselves into a job. He's like, yeah, I can play any song you want, any instrument you want. I'll make it happen. And runs this band. There was not enough of this in the book for me. I needed more. Which is that, like, they're in an interracial relationship. In a time when it's not allowed. And listen, people still are fucking weird to you about it. As someone who's in one myself, but there's not enough in the book about it. She basically tells the story of, like, we would go on vacation, and people would be like, is that guy Indian? Because he can't be here. And it's like, no, he's Cuban. And they're like, we also don't like that. But also the money and the fame is affording a little bit of a cushion. It's like, where you can buy your way out of racism just a little bit. It sounds like that's what was happening. What did you think of that?
- [45:13]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I mean, she's totally glossed over how they were pioneers in the interracial part. But you know what? I actually kind of appreciated that, because I hate it when they're like, susan, as an Asian American, how do you feel about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, can we just talk about the work? You know? Can we. And here, after a while, she's like, can we just talk about the conflict of two people? But at the time, she really was pioneering a lot.
- [45:36]
Chelsea Devontez
She really was.
- [45:37]
Susan Liu
And so she's like, and for 10 years, I wanted to be a co star with him, and it wasn't working out. But she doesn't talk about all the racism in America. You know, I think there was a moment to do that, and she just went over it. Like, maybe she thought if Desi read it that way, he would feel like it was reduced to his race. Right. Because, remember, she always wants to protect him. But at the same time, I'm like, also, it's kind of a big deal. Yeah.
- [45:59]
Chelsea Devontez
And. And he is. We're about to really get into it. He's extremely protected in this book. I think even the details we got, she didn't want to give. And, yeah, she doesn't really address the racism. I do wonder why. But I found the racism to be even later, which we'll get into, where he's always suffering. You can tell that his ego and his need for people to take him seriously and respect him and the ways those wounds, like, ravage their marriage also comes from a place of people probably being fucking racist to him and, like, not respecting him as much as they will respect Lucy, a white woman, and maybe not him, but also she's a woman at the time. And so all of these things are playing into it because obviously, women didn't get the most respect. We also need to add in the detail that while in the book she says they always wanted to work together, it's also sort of known that she was actually trying to keep him close to her so that maybe he wouldn't cheat and to try and get him to stop stepping out on her by way of, like, being close and working together and not having to travel apart. But then everyone's racism would not let that happen. Ugh. It's so tangled.
- [47:13]
Susan Liu
Totally. I mean, you see with her that she wants to prove her worthiness and be loved by audiences, but his own journey is probably, like, quite harder. Right. And he goes to great lengths to be an amazing entrepreneur and director and producer and managing so many projects. And maybe that's the thing that breaks their marriage, is him also trying to prove his worthiness.
- [47:32]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And he's never given the credit and never given his due for all these incredible things he did because everyone always gives it to Lucy. So then Lucy, in this book, you can see her being like, that was actually Desi. That was actually Desi. Actually, Desi's really smart and good. So she's clearly trying to build up his worth that he gets from her but doesn't get from other people because they're giving it to Lucy. It's so tangled. And yet this is what I'm taking from the book that's not like, actually written.
- [47:59]
Susan Liu
But then she justifies all his bad behavior and just.
- [48:02]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, I know. Okay, well, we're gonna get there. First they have to get married. So they're dating. They're going back and forth. It's just a wild time. She is 28 and he is 22. He's 22. This is a 22 year old boy. I mean, it's, it's. This is unbelievable.
- [48:19]
Susan Liu
Okay, so we've got a cougar situation in Hollywood, but.
- [48:22]
Chelsea Devontez
But also it's like insane. First off, she's a child, but then also a 22 year old boy. No one should marry a 22 year old boy, like, regardless of your age.
- [48:30]
Susan Liu
I mean, he also had a reputation, Right. And they're like warning her, like, don't get involved. Don't get involved. And she gets involved, she gets involved.
- [48:38]
Chelsea Devontez
They finally decide, like, a marriage between us would absolutely never work. So they break up. And then he's like, but I need to see you actually come back to New York. And she comes back and she says, in New York, I checked myself into the hotel, slept until noon, and waited for Desi to appear between shows. At the Roxy, a woman interviewer arrived just minutes before Desi I was still mad at him for having so little faith in me because he had been like, you're cheating on me. Come back to New York. So I let him cool his heels while I went on letting myself be interviewed for an article that wound up with the title quote, why I will always remain a Bachelor Girl. He comes inside and he's like, I'm so mad that you wouldn't come back sooner. You've missed our wedding that I've been planning every single day. And she said, but I thought we decided we couldn't get married. I said, he said, that's right, but we are. And she was like, really? And he was like, yeah, we're gonna go elope in Connecticut. I set it up. And she said, in many ways, marrying Desi was one of the boldest things I ever did. I had always gone with older men. I had also achieved some kind of stability in Hollywood. And Desi, with his beautiful girls and good times, seemed headed in another direction. Yet I sensed in Desi a great need. Beneath that dazzling charm was a homeless boy who had no one to care for him, worry about him, love him. And I wanted him and only him as the father of my children. And they go and get married in Connecticut, and then the club that Roxy calls Desi at 11:55am and he's like, hey, you're on in five minutes. So like, where are you? And Desi's like, yeah, I'm actually in Connecticut. And the guy says, you can't be in Connecticut. He says, I know, haha. But I am. I've been marrying Lucille Ball. And they just like miss the show. And then finally Hattie shows up and says, who did we marry?
- [50:24]
Susan Liu
Yes, very romantic. And he was like, we need to be in Connecticut at 10 o'clock because I do have a show at 12. Like, he was also, he was being super possessive of her, threatening her, demanding of her. And then also like slotting in their elopement marriage kind of thing. Like, I. I was also kind of like, ew, hot.
- [50:44]
Chelsea Devontez
Ew. Yeah, it's like, oh, no. But also like, oh, romance. And then bad. But then I gotta tell you, 10 years later, when they renew their vows, they also have a show that night. And I very much related to it. Like, performing is woven into their love, into their life. Like, you can't remove performing from this marriage. And so it's kind of wonderful that it's there from the start. However, something else is also there from the start. Ooh, ooh. She said, friends gave our marriage six Months. Me, I gave it a week. On our wedding night, Desi woke me out of a sleep by shaking my shoulders. What is it? What's the matter? I thought the hotel must be on fire. I'm thirsty. He explained. Please get me a glass of water, darling. I was out of bed and running to the tap in the bathroom before I woke up sufficiently to wonder why the hell he didn't get it himself.
- [51:41]
Susan Liu
I was pissed.
- [51:42]
Chelsea Devontez
This is the night of the wedding, and it's gonna be the rest of her life of, like, trying to be the subservient wife that he believes she should be when that is, like, not who she is. And also just fucked up for anyone.
- [51:56]
Susan Liu
Totally. Like, you're in deep slumber and someone who's already awake from thirst doesn't realize how efficient it is for them to just go get the glass of water.
- [52:05]
Chelsea Devontez
He's just like, women do things for me. You're my mommy now. I married a mommy today.
- [52:09]
Susan Liu
She did know that. She did know what he expected. Expected. And she acknowledged that. Right? Like, to be the caretaker of the home, to be dutiful. And there was a part of her that wanted that. Like, she was that in her childhood. She deeply wanted children. Like, this was it. But the water.
- [52:26]
Chelsea Devontez
Well, I think she wanted it because this is the 1950s. It was cultured into her. This is what women do. This is what men do. And so she was like, okay, I need to do the right thing. This is what women do. And everyone around her believes that's what should be done. And then her own innate humanity will. Will bump up against it. And so they just fight all the time from the jump. This was an incredible story. She talked about how they had always had separate bank accounts. Okay. Talk about pioneering some shit. Separate bank accounts at that time. Like, unbelievable. She said one night, soon after we were married, Desi and I had a long, loud fight. The next morning, I got out of bed at dawn and walked outside to the ranch house. We had a brand new station wagon parked there. I took a hammer and walked around the new car, smashing every window. What satisfaction that was. Then I telephoned our business manager and told him to get it fixed on my expense.
- [53:21]
Susan Liu
She was angry.
- [53:23]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And she had a separate account to be like, okay, I'll pay for it.
- [53:26]
Susan Liu
And a business manager to resolve it.
- [53:28]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A very luxurious car smashing. Definitely something you can only do when you're rich. But very funny. And this gets us into a place where, you know, they buy a ranch, they have chickens and cows, the spaghetti party Spaghetti parties. Oh, my God. Yes. It's this nine years of marriage where she's doing movies and shows and he's on the road performing. And it was somewhat clear in the book, but then I watched the documentary, and it's like they didn't really see each other for night years, which is maybe how they had such a long marriage. What did you think?
- [54:02]
Susan Liu
Well, after four years of witnessing his womanizing and all that, she actually does want to file divorce for him. And she tells him that, and then he's like, in my next marriage, I'm gonna be a better man. And she's like, I'm gonna be a better wife. And then they're like, let's actually be together and remarry each other. So then she pays $2,000 in fees to re enact the divorce. Like, four years in, she already kind of knew that it was kind of done. But then they keep going, you know, and I just. I'm just kind of sitting here like, if rumors get back to you, how shameful and embarrassing to her.
- [54:39]
Chelsea Devontez
Well, you know, it took me kind of the whole book, because she doesn't ever say that Desi cheated on her ever. And you can tell that everyone from that camp and the people who loved them try and talk around it a little bit. No one really wants to own Desi's cheating legacy, because I finally realized at the end that every time she said he humiliated her, she meant he was cheating. It would get picked up in the papers. And we also know, you know, outside of this book, that he was cheating with sex workers and friends of friends and really anyone with a pulse, as we learned from Cher's memoir. And Desi cheating on Cher's mom, who was on the Lucille Ball Show. So he was. He was everywhere. And so, you know, she was like, oh, like, he would go out to the clubs a lot. He humiliated me. It's like, oh, he's cheating on her. And then she said, he stopped coming home at the summer of 1944. Oh, my God. I said, it was the 50s earlier. It's the 40s. He stops coming home. And she said, I hit on a desperate measure. I still loved Desi. He was the only man in my life. I chose California to divorce him because it takes a year to become final. Therefore, there were 365 days left for a reconciliation. And then one morning, he says, where are you going? And she said, to court to divorce you. And then, yes, they. They decide to stay together again. So that's again where she wrote, she's Just kind of. She's doing really well in her career. She's doing better than Desi, which is going to be a problem. Obviously, you saw that coming. But then she said, I had a driving, consuming ambition to succeed in show business, that I had no idea where my real talents lay. I was dying to be told to be shown. Way down deep underneath those brassy showgirl trappings was Lucy. And there she stayed, strangulated for years. Did that make you think of a certain phase in your life? Cause it certainly made me think of one in mine.
- [56:37]
Susan Liu
I just think it's so interesting to always wonder, like, who am I and how do I become who I like? You have this inkling that you're supposed to be great or you're supposed to be a somebody, you know, and she knew that. They gave her a lot of clowning that was like, lot of gags, you know, but she was like, I can be more than that. Like, I know that there's something more here. And so I just. When I look back and I think, oh, she said she just knew who she was. And it comes with such ease. It also comes with such struggle to be a part of your own becoming.
- [57:10]
Chelsea Devontez
To be a part of your own becoming. That was stunning. And yes, she said, I loved this because it was so specific. They made the mistake of giving me gags, whereas I find my comedy is in the tradition of pure physical comedy. I must be given a comic situation, which I live with, tussle with. Then the twists and complications emerge later. It's, you know, her motivation. Why is she standing there? The realities, the logic of her character is really important to her because she needs to get into a realistic, complicated situation. And the laughs come from her struggling through it versus, like, you're going to walk into a door and fall. So this entire time she's like, I want kids. Why haven't I had kids? She was 28 when she married him. She's 38, being like, I'm desperate for a child. They've been married 10 years without a child. And then she says, desi and I decided no more traveling. He would give up his cross country tours and only take local engagements with his band. We would both consult doctors to see why we did not have children, and we would kick out the bums. Desi had many hangers on at our ranch at the time. Drinking, brawling, constantly dropping in. They gave us no peace. We had to take over our house again. And so what is really wild is that, well, here's the thing I want to ask you about. And then we'll get into the whole story. Ten years of marriage in the 1940s. A woman dying to have a child will not get pregnant till she's 40. What happened at those doctors? She said, we both agreed to see doctors to see what was happening. She never wrote about it. She never told us. But, like, to get pregnant at 40 definitely can take some things in that year I can't even imagine. Never told us what happened in any way. And I was dying for it.
- [59:05]
Susan Liu
Oh, you mean like, you're like, is this ivf? Like, what's happening? I mean, she does have a C section. It can't be IVF because it's not invented yet.
- [59:12]
Chelsea Devontez
Because it's not invented yet.
- [59:14]
Susan Liu
I don't know. But is it rocket science? Desi's always out. He's out for months at a time when he got tired of one night stands. She says that you're gonna increase your probability of having a kid if you're actually together having sex.
- [59:28]
Chelsea Devontez
That's right. But also, aren't you so shocked there's not like a secret Desi child somewhere given.
- [59:34]
Susan Liu
How do we know?
- [59:35]
Chelsea Devontez
No, that I know. That's what I'm saying. Aren't you shocked someone hasn't, like, come forth? I don't know. I'm. I hate to be, like, being a little head of hopper gossip bitch here, but I read this and I was like, this is a crazy journey to have been on fertility wise, and we have no details about it.
- [59:51]
Susan Liu
Yeah. And the level of birth control that women had access to. Like, all of his mistress. Like, maybe this is a Reddit thread that we haven't gone down yet that we should.
- [59:59]
Chelsea Devontez
Well, I'm not gonna lie. I did go on Reddit. Another dangerous place to be. I really looked for this thread. I just had to know. So what happens is she's just like, listen, we're gonna get our lives together. No one would put Desi and me in a project together. They said it wasn't believable as an American couple. Like, he wasn't an American husband, I. E. He's Cuban. And she would say, but I'm American, He's American, and he's my husband. So. And they were like, yeah, we're just, like, racist, though. And so she finally is like, fine, we're gonna do a vaudeville act together and we are going to do our own show and you're gonna see how great we are. I will say, specific to the story, Lucy did have a miscarriage early in their marriage, and it is now 10 years later, they're on the road doing this vaudevillian act, and she decides, oh, or, yay, I think I need to take a pregnancy test. And she goes and gives a fake name, and they say, you'll hear the results in three days. And she is backstage knitting between their shows when a famous gossip bitch over the radio announces that Lucille Ball is pregnant. And then she's gonna have a miscarriage.
- [61:05]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I mean, the guy announces it before Desi even knows, before Lucy knows.
- [61:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Lucy hasn't been given her results. This is horrifying. And also announcing this early pregnancy, and she's gonna lose the pregnancy. And she didn't really put the trauma in the book, but you just know how painful this must be.
- [61:23]
Susan Liu
I mean, she spends years just clipping out pictures of little babies being like, I wish this was me, but it's not gonna be me. Like, she's doing vision boarding for babies way early on and then has this miscarriage publicly.
- [61:36]
Chelsea Devontez
I mean, awful. And okay, so on one of the Reddit threads, Tell me when she has this miscarriage, I think they find that one of her fallopian tubes had been, like, surgically tied or blocked from the very first miscarriage that she'd had early in the marriage. And so they undo whatever that was. And then also in Lucy's book, she said, I had a miscarriage, but the doctors told me they had high hopes that I could conceive again. And then she's gonna conceive after that miscarriage, and that is her first child when she's 39. What do you think of that, Detective Fuckery?
- [62:14]
Susan Liu
I like that you did that. But now imagery, I'm like, can you just, like, tie the fallopian tube then untied.
- [62:19]
Chelsea Devontez
I know I definitely said it wrong. I'm like, what did it? What happened to the fallopian tube? I'd have to go revisit the Reddit thread. But something. Something where like, a doctor fucked her up the first time after her first miscarriage, which, of course, they did, and they didn't realize that that had happened, that maybe impacted her fertility until she went back again. This is Reddit. It's not in the book. Nothing's in the book. Yeah, but then she gets pregnant again, and they're so happy, and she said, this is the best year of my marriage. Was like, before the child came, and after the child came. And as she is pregnant, they get a call, and her agent says, congrats, you. And Desi's television show has been picked up. And she said, what show? We don't have a show. And he said, I know you've got a month to put one together. They want the pilot by February 15th. She's pregnant and has a month to put together this television show, she said. At the time, television was regarded as the enemy by Hollywood. So terrified was Hollywood of this medium, movie people were afraid to make guest appearances. If I undertook a weekly television show and it flopped, I would never work in movies again. It would mean each of us would have to give up our respective radio programs and Desi would have to cancel all his band engagements. It was a tremendous gambler. It would be an all or nothing commitment. But this was the first real chance Desi and I would have to work together, something we'd both been longing for for years. We continued to wrestle with the decision, trying to look at things from every angle. Everyone get ready for your psychic moment. Then one night, Carol Lombard appeared to me in a dream. She was wearing one of those slinky bias cut gowns of the 30s, waving a long, black cigarette holder in her hand. Go on, kid, she advised me airily. Give it a whirlwind. Best psychic moment ever.
- [63:59]
Susan Liu
Go on, kid.
- [64:00]
Chelsea Devontez
Go on, kid. Give it a whirl.
- [64:03]
Susan Liu
I mean, it was just kind of like when it rains, it pours, you know what I mean? Like, for so long, they wanted their show together for so long, they wanted the baby. And to go on TV was such risk because you could be ousted from Hollywood, Right. It was the new frontier. It's like, AI, Right? Like, it was like. It's this thing where you're like, don't touch that. It's gonna risk everything. And then they're like, let's risk it.
- [64:24]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, that's what I thought of, too. I was like, oh, my God, it's AI. And I was like, I don't know if this one maps.
- [64:29]
Susan Liu
You're on the frontier of, like, this could be really great for you or really bad for you. Maybe it was like the Internet, you know what I mean?
- [64:34]
Chelsea Devontez
Like, YouTube, TikTok.
- [64:36]
Susan Liu
The Internet's not gonna really work out.
- [64:38]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Oh, and then. Psych. If you had a YouTube show in, you know, 2009 or 2010, you're a millionaire now.
- [64:45]
Susan Liu
Absolutely.
- [64:46]
Chelsea Devontez
And this is where all the incredible stuff comes from, where they're like, move to New York. You have no budget. They're like, we're not leaving la, so we'll do it ourselves. Desi goes from managing a band to actually physically producing the show. So he has to get the audience, the studio the blah, blah, blah, everything that will lead to these incredible moves in television and them ending up owning the RKO studio that Lucille was never gonna be allowed to work at again. They end up owning this shit is because in the beginning they say, we'll do it ourselves. Then you don't want to give us money, that's fine. Then put in the contract that we own the show.
- [65:21]
Susan Liu
He is a brilliant negotiator. He says, you know, if you don't want to film in front of a live studio audience, because that's going to double your cost, we'll take a pay cut so we can have all the rights. Gene, yes, he is a gambling man and it is to a fault, but in this moment, he is gambling. So right.
- [65:40]
Chelsea Devontez
These decisions are going to create, like shooting on live film, tv, syndication, like the studio audience canned laughs that we sometimes still hear, maybe not today, but years ago, came from the original I Love Lucy shows. And then in order to shoot it in enough time, Desi is going to create the three camera multicam shooting style that revolutionizes television. And here's where I say, for some reason in Betty White's memoir, she did take time to say, no, someone else did that. First, it wasn't Desi and Lucy.
- [66:13]
Susan Liu
Who was it? Also, yes, Betty White.
- [66:15]
Chelsea Devontez
I don't even remember. It was Betty White being like, by the way, I love Lucy. And that was amazing. But Bradford, Bradford Son actually did. I don't know. I was just like, oh, weird. Shots fired, but a lot of incredible stuff. And I will say credit is given to Desi and Lucy. That is, like, where it goes. And then here's something I want to ask you about. Okay? At the very first story conference, Desi laid down the underlying principles of the show. The humor could never be mean or unkind. Neither Ricky nor Lucy would ever flirt seriously with anyone else. Mothers in law would not be held up to ridicule. Okay, that one's, like, really cool. And you're like, how did that one get in there? Most of all, Desi insisted on Ricky's manhood. When Lucy's got something up her sleeve that would make Ricky look like a fool, let the audience know that I'm in on the secret. He told our writers. I have worked on many television shows, and when I tell you some iteration of that has come from actors at different points. Yeah, it's a thing. It's like, I wanna be funny, but I'm definitely a big, strong man. And I'm never stupid in a fool. She can be a fool, but I'M not a fool. It's like, well, then no wonder she was the comedic star of the show. Cause she allowed herself to look stupid all the time.
- [67:33]
Susan Liu
Right. Well, what I did appreciate from that passage is having clear principles in a show. Right. And he had to uphold his Latin American manhood, or just manhood in general. Fine. But with those clear tenets, then at least you know where to play. Right? I mean, it's just reflective of him and his time.
- [67:50]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I know. It's like, yes. The principles and rules, however, I'm sorry, y'all are calling them, like, fat, ugly, stupid idiots the entire show. Like, don't tell me. One of the principles is that you can't be mean or unkind. And to that, I want to say a lot of those jokes are, like, very funny. I'm not saying, like, they shouldn't have made them. I'm just saying, lol. Don't be mean or unkind. You were saying, make yourself look like the strong, great, cool guy, which relegates you to being the straight man, which he's going to complain about in the marriage, that Lucy's the funny star and he's the straight man. And it's like, okay, well, you comedically designed this prison for yourself to live in. And then you both held it up as, like, the reason the show was successful. No, that's the reason Lucy was successful. You actually weren't always very funny on the show. Sorry to. You know what I'm saying?
- [68:39]
Susan Liu
I understand. I mean, he played so many other roles. He was the director, he was the producer. He did so many other things, and that was his role. And he can't have his cake and eat it, too. Like, sorry. Yeah, Sorry, Daisy. Yeah.
- [68:51]
Chelsea Devontez
And, yeah, he did do incredible things. But, yeah, maybe all of this is.
- [68:55]
Susan Liu
Just indicative of the success and failure of their relationship. You know, like, they needed each other so much to become this dynamic entity that was trying to address so much of, like, the follies of marriage, you know, and they were able to have each other shine. And he was breaking his own barriers of what a Latin American man can be on television. Right. They needed each other. And yet, to a fault, they would eventually. I mean, maybe the word destroy is a little too harsh, but destroy each other.
- [69:22]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for stopping down for that. He is also the first Latin American man to lead a television show. And there's only, you know, a few after him. Freddie Prinze Sr. George Lopez. Not. Not a lot. And it's still very, very low. And in order to make that happen. Lucy had to say, I won't do the show without him. And then they literally had to run the show themselves. They had to literally build an entire studio themselves. He had to direct it, he had to produce it. She had to threaten to quit in order for them to get on air and create the most successful show of all time. That's how racist they were. It's like, you know, listen, this is the intersectionalism of like, we could talk about, then we could talk about sexism and then, you know, we get in the middle and what we go to the next story. Okay, so here's a little goss that I loved. So Vivian Vance, who played Ethel, I've heard rumors and everyone has heard rumors that in her contract she always had to be 10 pounds heavier than Lucy. And she always had to be like dowdy and ugly and she hated it. And like, Lucy made her. In the book, Lucy's like, I love Vivian, that actress, she's the best. We were very compatible. And she was so funny and cool that she went with like the dowdy look, even though her husband was like 20 years older than her. And then she said Vivian was unhappy in her marriage to actor Philip Ober. And so she ate. After a while, we didn't even have to ask her to pad herself on summer vacation. She'd diet and once she came back to sets, positively spelt well, Vivian, I kidded her, you've got just two weeks to get fat and sloppy again. This is loosey setting the record straight, I guess.
- [70:55]
Susan Liu
Yeah, she's saying it how it is.
- [70:57]
Chelsea Devontez
Or like being rude. I don't know. What did you think?
- [71:01]
Susan Liu
Oh, later she, she really credits Vivian so many times for being like helping keep the partnership together with the show and like a long term friend. I don't know, maybe Talking about weight. Wait, talking about weight was such an interesting thing in this book. There was this one line where Lucy's like, when I was in the hospital on a fattening diet.
- [71:21]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Because Lucy, I will say Dringo all over this book. She lists her exact weight a lot. And in the beginning it's £100. And she's like one of the few actresses who like can't keep weight on to like be shapely. So.
- [71:35]
Susan Liu
Yeah, yeah, because she's like working so hard, working herself literally to the bone, and she's like, I should be 130. So I went on a fattening diet. So I don't know, it was a different time.
- [71:45]
Chelsea Devontez
It was, it really, it really, really was. So Then the show's huge. It becomes the number one show. People say, like, there's no traffic on Thursday evenings while the show is on because everyone's inside watching. Like 60 million people are watching the show.
- [72:00]
Susan Liu
Oh. And then she's like, and the flush rate of America is down because no one's going to the toilet. And stores close from 9 to 9:30 because they say they also love Lucy.
- [72:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. You're like, whoa, these stats. And the book starts to go really fast after this. She's like, then I get pregnant again, which is huge. And she says they go to the head writer and they're like, well, the show's over. We had a good run, but we want a family goodbye. And the writer says, you know, it's this writer, Jess. And if you think it's a girl, it's not. It's a boy. Because I did. Jess is like, I wouldn't say this to anyone else, but I think we can do it. And Lucy, you should be on air pregnant. They were like, you think. You think they'll let us? And Lucy said, we did seven shows concerning my pregnancy. This is how wild it was for them to have a lead who was pregnant. A woman. A woman pregnant on. Even on screen at all. She said, these films were screened by a priest, a minister and a rabbi for any possible violation of good taste. It was the CBS network that objected to using the word pregnant. They made us say expecting. The three man religious committee protested, what's wrong with pregnant? They were heartily in favor of what we were doing. Showing motherhood as a happy, wholesome, normal family event. Okay, so the religious people are like, yes, women should be pregnant. Yay. And then the network is like, ooh, it's gross. Like, don't say that word. Yuck. And then they're breaking standards just by her standing there. Pregnant.
- [73:28]
Susan Liu
Just existing.
- [73:30]
Chelsea Devontez
Just existing.
- [73:31]
Susan Liu
And also, you need a three man religious committee. Like, of all the religions, you need.
- [73:35]
Chelsea Devontez
A knock knock joke. Like, you need a three men walk into a bar joke to. To get Lucy on air.
- [73:42]
Susan Liu
It's like you're in court. And I'd like to call my next slide of evidence the three religious men.
- [73:46]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. By the way, these are the only three religions we care about. A priest, a minister and a rabbi.
- [73:52]
Susan Liu
That's why I'm sitting here going with Susan's 2024 brain. Like, how can I judge what she's saying? Or like, why this wasn't emotional enough or all these things. When, of course, is the time. Like, this is the 1950s when this is what. This is 70 years ago.
- [74:08]
Chelsea Devontez
You're so right. Which will lead us into our next thing, which is right after. What I just read is many times on the Lucy show, the script was very close to reality. In real life, Desi and I had separated and reconciled many times. And the public knew this. At this point, you go, wait, what? Like, she didn't write any of that.
- [74:26]
Susan Liu
She just skipped it.
- [74:27]
Chelsea Devontez
She was like, it became really successful. Two years later, I was pregnant again, skipped all of it. And that, like, you know, they separate for like, seven minutes in the show and then they get back together. And then it is McCarthyism in Hollywood. And it is this really intense time where I will use Lucy's own words, where she said the most vicious thing about the blacklist was that anyone, even the most ignorant crank, could point the finger at someone and the charge could hold. And so it felt very witch hunt. And Lucille had actually already talked to the FBI years prior because they found she had registered for the Communist Party when, like you said, granddaddy was really out on democracy. And he was always about, like, being paid fair wages and horrible things like that. And he got them to register as communists. But then Lucy never voted. So she went under the committee and they were like, we find you not guilty of being a Communist. And then an actual, like, reporter finds out about it, and it becomes this huge press thing where Lucy is going to lose her entire life by being called a Communist. And she said it was only because she had already become extremely successful and boosted Desi up enough to be so beloved as her husband that when he spoke for her and said, you know, I despise communism, it ruined Cuba for me and my wife is not communist, he said. On Saturday, the complete transcript of Lucy's testimony will be released to the papers and you can read it for yourself. But she is not a Communist. Now I want you to meet my favorite wife, my favorite redhead. In fact, that's the only thing read about her. And even that's not legitimate. Lucille Ball. And she's, like, trembling and crying and like, she's freed of these, like, charges that would have ruined her life. And she said I was one of the lucky ones. For a long time, people in Hollywood couldn't get a job because of unfounded and vicious smear rumors. If news of my registration had been revealed during the worst witch hunting days between 1945 and 1950, my career probably would have been finished. Are you ready for this, Susan? Okay. The person who started started the Hollywood blacklist and McCarthyism was Lila Rogers.
- [76:33]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God.
- [76:36]
Chelsea Devontez
Isn't that unreal? Yeah, we read it in Ginger's memoir. And Leela was the founder of the reactionary motion picture alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals. So she played a really big role in these blacklistings. And so I was also really curious, like, clearly, like, what happened with Lila at this point? You know, it's not even in the book at all.
- [77:01]
Susan Liu
But, yeah, like, why didn't Lucy just call her and be like, what up?
- [77:04]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, and maybe she did the first time, or. But if Lucy's saying, like, this was a horrible time in Hollywood and Lila started it, isn't that wild? But she still gave her her flowers.
- [77:15]
Susan Liu
Yeah, she sure did.
- [77:16]
Chelsea Devontez
She sure did. Okay, well, now it's time to wrap up. It is page 197, and she is racing her way out of this book.
- [77:24]
Susan Liu
Oh.
- [77:25]
Chelsea Devontez
She's like, okay, so things were bad with Desi for a million years. And you're like, whoa. Then she says, I am one of the few actresses in Hollywood. Hedda Hopper, who is a famous gossip columnist. So think of, like, I don't know. The Perez of the time says that I am one of the few actresses in Hollywood who survived my encounter with success in a single piece. Only slightly battered as a consequences. There are many days when I feel more than slightly battered. And at this point, she is moving out of the marriage, and she meets a doctor. She said, I'll always be grateful to Mrs. Charles Ruggles for taking the time for me to hear Dr. Norman Vincent Peale. And this guy becomes such a huge figure in her life, doing, like, therapy with him and all this stuff. Did you look him up by any chance?
- [78:13]
Susan Liu
Is he. I wasn't sure if he was a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
- [78:16]
Chelsea Devontez
I know. I said, oh, no, who's this? It could have been a lot worse. This is the guy behind the power of positive thinking and kind of knowing how Lucy is thought of as, like, really tough and, like, you know, having opinions as ladies shouldn't do and maybe having a negative attitude at times. I think this was life changing for her. The idea that you could just choose to be positive, which, you know, whatever. So Desi, meanwhile, is, like, running things. He has so much money, they've bought RKO Studios, but he's drinking, he's flipping out. They moved into a new house, and, like, there had been a flood. And she said, desi really flipped, and it got so violent and horrific. And then she just starts saying, like, he wouldn't go to therapy. And we just started staying out of Each other's ways. And the last effort towards a reconciliation was this trip to Europe. That was horrible. And when she came back, she said it was over. She wrote this sentence. I realized we never really liked each other. We had a great attraction going for each other in the beginning, but we didn't approve of each other. He disapproved of my moderation and my conservatism. I was square. He said I disapproved of the way he worked too hard, played too hard, and was never moderate in anything. It was like living on top of a volcano. You never knew when it would erupt or why it sucks.
- [79:33]
Susan Liu
And I felt like it came on really suddenly.
- [79:35]
Chelsea Devontez
She doesn't want to hurt Desi, so she would not write the 10 years of information that led to her writing the sentence. We didn't like each other.
- [79:43]
Susan Liu
There was romantic, affectionate, generous Desi. And then there was the Desi who was drinking, always thinking about the studio, gambling, disenchanted, bitter, unforgiving. You know, I'm sitting there being like, no. You know, like they had worked so hard to get to this point, and then now it's all coming crumbling down.
- [80:03]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And also maybe only she worked hard to get to this point. She went to therapy. He went once and it was amazing. But then he wouldn't continue.
- [80:11]
Susan Liu
Yeah, it was a nine hour session. And then afterwards they left and had a great dinner. And then they saw him a couple more times, and then that was kind of it.
- [80:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. But then I'll harken back to the foreword written by her daughter where she said, there are a few stories I read in this memoir where I said, you gotta read My dad's side and his memoir, which I said, future Valentine's Day episode. So I guess maybe we could get the full picture if we read Desi's memoir.
- [80:36]
Susan Liu
Wait, isn't the title called A book?
- [80:38]
Chelsea Devontez
Is it? That'd be funny. Desi, A book. Yeah, man, you're right. Listen, I wanna read it. But then she said, okay. So this was the wildest. She said, I was able to accept the situation for many years because it was our secret. Anonymity is a great thing when you're unhappy. But when Desi made it public domain, I knew I couldn't be publicly embarrassed any longer. My only to die moments in life have been when I lost my self respect and Desi's conduct toward me in front of other people became more and more humiliating. And this is where I finally realized she's talking about, like, rampant cheating on her and people knowing about it. Plus, she said, the day I filed for divorce, I wrote it was on the grounds of, quote, extreme mental cruelty.
- [81:31]
Susan Liu
Usually when people get divorced today, celebrities.
- [81:33]
Chelsea Devontez
They go, it's irreconcilable differences, Right? Yeah.
- [81:36]
Susan Liu
Which we all basically knows, like it's the husband's fault. Right?
- [81:39]
Chelsea Devontez
So, yeah. Well, and also, as our producer pointed out, there, there was not a no fault divorce option either. But yet to write extreme mental cruelty.
- [81:50]
Susan Liu
Yeah, that's pretty explicit. And like, that probably hit the papers too, right?
- [81:54]
Chelsea Devontez
I mean, I wonder, because obviously, looking at it 70 years in hindsight, the stuff I found, you go down rabbit holes.
- [82:02]
Susan Liu
Like I should never piss you off.
- [82:04]
Chelsea Devontez
I gotta be honest, I love a grudge. I talk about it here often. I think people think I'm, like, too fun to have a grudge. No, no, no. I'll go so far, I'll go to the ends of the earth if I must. But looking at it in hindsight, I really felt like the entire camp, they either want to protect. They all kind of want to protect Desi a little bit. A little bit. Protect this legacy of both of them and still hold it up as a love story as it is in that documentary, or this really is her view on her life and her marriage in him. And it's not shared by anyone else. But I don't. That's not the view I would take on this.
- [82:37]
Susan Liu
Look, her kids formed a second LLC called Desilu2 LLC that published this. All right? And that entity also, like, coordinates all, like, which bobbleheads go to production. Right? So her daughter, at least, and the son maybe read this and still printed it. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, oh, yeah, they both.
- [82:59]
Chelsea Devontez
Her daughter was like, I read every word. And my dad disagrees with some of it in his memoir. And we want it out there. We want my mom's story out there. You're right.
- [83:07]
Susan Liu
And she said, my mom was quoted really well. Because then she goes back and listens to all the tapes that Lucy personally recorded so that the ghostwriter would write everything correctly, right? So, like, this is how Lucy wanted to set the story straight. And she's so civil. She is so nice.
- [83:25]
Chelsea Devontez
I mean, this is the version that won't hurt Desi. In this version, she said, I'm not gonna talk about the Desi stuff. I don't wanna hurt him. Cause he was still alive when she was doing this one. Then she decides it's still too much. It would hurt him. Throw the book in the trash. So I can't. Yeah, So I can't imagine the version that would have existed, you know, like, if this is the nice version, imagine what really happened.
- [83:47]
Susan Liu
Yeah.
- [83:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay. So this is so wild how fast this book ends. So they had come together to do their vaudeville show. They had formed Desilu Productions, which is. It's just such a. A beautiful, perfect name. Desilu. Desilu, by, you know, making the show themselves and having to be pioneers, ends up becoming this powerhouse that buys RKO Studios. They're now the biggest studio in town. This is where Star Trek comes from. It comes from Desilu Productions. Yeah. And it comes from Lucille Ball fighting for this show and refilming a pilot out of her own money, being like, it's going to be so good. I believe in it. So that comes from Desilu Productions. And then this is what she writes about their marriage. She said, I was gonna go to Europe, and I wanted to get as far away from Hollywood and Desi as humanly possible. He could run Desilu and I would remove myself permanently. It didn't work out that way, but that was my original idea. I said, say more, please. Please say more. I did some research, because she won't write it here, but I think Desi ran it into huge debt. I think he ran into the ground, which is the thing that would hurt him most, because he wanted to be seen as, like, strong. I think he was, like, drinking and he fucked up the studio because I found one sentence on Wikipedia where it said, she bought him out of his shares, and a few years later, she had finally made the studio profitable again.
- [85:11]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God. Wait, this is making sense. Because she buys his shares, his controlling interest for 3mil, but they bought RKO for 6mil.
- [85:20]
Chelsea Devontez
I think Desi put the studio in a lot of trouble, or he was drinking so much he was just unable to continue it. But I did find some stuff that said she made it profitable again, but she had never wanted to run a studio. So here she is, the first female head of a television studio ever. She could give a fuck about it. She writes nothing about it. And the moment she turns it profitable, she sells it to what we now know is Paramount.
- [85:47]
Susan Liu
Are you serious? Yeah.
- [85:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Isn't that wild? Also, just a little tidbit, a little fun fact about this studio. I learned this from Marielle, a friend of mine, an executive. She's so genius. And she was telling me that Lucy was criticized for being a bad mother because there was a photo shoot once where she pretended she was at home with her kids, but she was actually outside of her office on what is now the Paramount lot. But the reason her kids were so close by is because Lucille Ball created the studio daycare system that is now on every single film lot to this day. And that female and male execs, they use that daycare system now to have their kids at work and nearby and close and literally on the Paramount lot. The only thing separating Lucy's old office from the current daycare is just this one little grassy area, which is where she took the picture she was criticized for. Isn't that so fantastic? And so she really pioneered and changed so, so many things in the Hollywood system as we know it. So then there's maybe one paragraph where she's like, yeah, I met this guy named Gary.
- [86:55]
Susan Liu
Yeah, he didn't even ever watch I Love Lucy. He was great and he gave me capacity feel happiness again, period. End of by.
- [87:05]
Chelsea Devontez
He was 46 and longed for a family. After 11 months, I married him, even though I never wanted to be married again. I tell me what you think of this. But I said, oh, my God. She was so destroyed by Desi that simply a safe man felt like the happiest ending she thought she could get. Cause it didn't really feel like she loved him that much. I don't.
- [87:25]
Susan Liu
But she was with him till the end. And I mean, it ends kind of happy because Desi phones her all the time to ask about the kids in the show. And Gary and Desi go golfing. I'm happy for her, I really am. But can we just talk about spring of 1960? Desi and I were totally estranged, Although he still had to be both actor and director on the show. To me, the good natured kidding that used to animate the set disappeared entirely, like, near the end. They don't have a relationship. And yes, they have to have their specials. Like, that's devastating. Then she leaves, goes to be on what Wildcats. That debuts in Philly and then New York and is so sick that she has to give oxygen to her backstage to keep going every show. Cause she's a virus. And then she goes, I flew to London determined to die in a scenic atmosphere. Like, it was bad. It was really bad. So Gary's really good.
- [88:25]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, I like that take. I like that take a lot. I sort of saw it as, like, it was so bad. And then Gary was like, hello, my name's Gary. And she was like, that seems nice. Let's get married.
- [88:37]
Susan Liu
I wanted him to light my cigarette. He threw it right back at me, me. And I said, oh, he's A charmer.
- [88:42]
Chelsea Devontez
It's just like, too, like, you can feel the love, intensity, feelings, affection, judgment. You can feel all these feelings towards Desi throughout the book. So it's like she fucking hates his ass when she is writing this book and stops down to explain the inner workings of his childlike heart and his talents and his skills. Like, it didn't feel like it was from civility. Like she really. You could really just feel how much she loved him. And later, yes, they do become friends. And then with Gary, it's like Gary's 46 and wanted a family. Like, I don't know. I'm judging it really harshly. But the love story didn't come across, at least in this moment.
- [89:24]
Susan Liu
It was very abrupt. It was on fast forward near the end, for sure.
- [89:29]
Chelsea Devontez
Maybe had she decided to publish this book, she would have gone back, there would have been another year with Gary, and she would have, like, added more detail.
- [89:35]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I mean, she finished writing this, I think, was it 1964? And then the ghostwriters sent it into the office in 1966. So we have two decades of her life not covered before she dies.
- [89:49]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [89:49]
Susan Liu
So it's a snapshot in time, but can you tell? Okay, so I went through some other rabbit holes myself after reading this.
- [89:54]
Chelsea Devontez
Tell me, tell me.
- [89:55]
Susan Liu
Because then I was like, oh, well, what happened? And it was like the daughter, Lucy, said, the last time my parents saw each other before Desi died, I drove Lucille to see Desi. I forced them to watch I Love Lucy. They watched it together. Lucy said to Desi, I love you. And then they drove home in the car. And Lucy was bawling the whole time.
- [90:17]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And then when Desi's dying, she puts her mom on the phone with him and they talk for the last time. And she realizes that the last time they talked was their wedding anniversary. It was like October. Yeah. Oh, I know, I know. But it's so complicated. It's like, how. How are you divorcing someone from extreme mental cruelty? But there's. But it's this deep love story somehow at the end.
- [90:45]
Susan Liu
I don't know. Could they have been successful without each other? You know, they were on their. Their. Their come up, but together they had this secret sauce that no one else could create. So they needed each other and thrived off each other in such a deep way, and yet they destroyed each other.
- [91:03]
Chelsea Devontez
The show is one of the best hit shows of all time. Their story outside the show. Wow. What are the most iconic tales of all time? This love story. Okay. It is time to do the booktull test.
- [91:18]
Susan Liu
Let's do it.
- [91:19]
Chelsea Devontez
First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?
- [91:23]
Susan Liu
I'm gonna go 7 out of 10. Given the context of the time, what you expect out of a 2024 memoir that's a Goodreads Choice Award is not what you're gonna expect out of something from a person who grew up and was born from 1911.
- [91:39]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay. I love you plugging our award. It's another way for us to say we scream cry through our memoirs. So you're right. You're so right. And, like, I would give Ginger Rogers memoir A0 minus 10. So in that context, I would give Lucy a yes. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?
- [92:00]
Susan Liu
Yeah, it was. I mean, she is a master performer, and I know the success of I Love Lucy goes really fast, but. But to read all of the shit she went through to get there is so well earned. It's so well earned, and I'm so happy for her. And I start so many sections and exclamation points being like, yes, yes, now. Now, yes, yes, yes. You know, and I love. Like, she told me that if I feel bad about myself, I need to ask myself, if I put newspaper in my shoes or not, then I should feel bad about myself.
- [92:35]
Chelsea Devontez
You know what I mean?
- [92:36]
Susan Liu
Yeah, yeah. Which goes into your next question. You know? But anyways, like, yes, yes, it was entertaining.
- [92:42]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I loved it. I was riveted. And honestly, objectively, the book is actually quite boring and dry, not super well written. I imagine not a lot of people are gonna share my opinion here, but I loved it. And that said, my mom came to visit, and this book was waiting for me to start. And one night, my mom stayed up all night long, and at 6 in the morning, I came out to the kitchen. I was like, what are you doing? And she was like, I have to finish this. So my mom read this, like, in one night, and that's kind of how I did it too. So I think it just depends. I think it depends on how you find the book, but I love it.
- [93:19]
Susan Liu
I mean, I think, like, as a creative, you need to know your history, and you need to know the people who have come before you. And I think she gave us an inside look, including weekly wages for us to. To know.
- [93:33]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Going to these moments that we knew about and then being like, wait, what? Like, that was cool. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?
- [93:43]
Susan Liu
Yeah. It's like, try harder, Susan. Try a lot harder.
- [93:49]
Chelsea Devontez
I I. I love that. That's so fun. Yeah, she did. I feel so much better about life in this moment. Both are political life. Watching her walk through the depression and McCarthyism and these, like, horrific events. It's sad to say, but like, reading something that bleak in a moment where you feel very bleak and you know that she moved through it and the world moves through it just was something I needed to read. And then artistically, knowing that she didn't. She didn't, quote, make it into this woman we know now till 40 was so cool. It was so cool. And to just know that there's no time limit, there's no aids, there's no you should have. And I feel like it all the time. And who doesn't. Who doesn't open the door and be like, why isn't it all here now? But reading her story, it's like if the real you is strangled underneath something, you gotta unpeel it. And until that day happens, like, it's not gonna be what you think it's supposed to be. And I found it to be really.
- [94:56]
Susan Liu
Inspiring, the number of people who told her that she's not gonna make it and who fired her after, like, five weeks of unpaid rehearsal. Like, she'd never make it to a costume fitting. Like, the number of times this woman has failed. And she goes, no matter, I'm gonna keep going. I have arthritis. No matter. I'm on oxygen. No matter, you know, I'm sitting there going like, I take failure really personally.
- [95:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, me too.
- [95:19]
Susan Liu
I was heckled by a stand up when I was a stand up comedian years ago.
- [95:23]
Chelsea Devontez
Please tell me this story because I know it parlays into your book career. And I, like, I want to know about this so much. Okay, so you were doing stand up and you got heckled, right?
- [95:31]
Susan Liu
Okay, look, it was 2011. I thought the Mayan calendar was real. And it possibly could be the end of the world. So what would I want to do? So I don't have any life regrets, which is stand up comedy. I get into stand up comedy within. Within six months, I'm headlining at the Purple Onion. I am also at Caroline's on Broadway. Like, things are happening for me. My brother books me at a charity comedy show that they're throwing for their active 2030 club. And this guy will not stop heckling me. And I've never experienced it before. I tried to be mean, but that's really not me. I'm whispering my jokes into the microphone. My siblings see it all. I kind of just hand the mic back to the. The comics don't make any eye contact with me. My siblings, who always give me shit, buy me a drink and give me no shit. Okay? Like, it's bad. And after that, I just was like, who am I kidding? That was really dumb of me. Like, whom? I thought I could be somebody. I go to business school and I think three years later, I returned the microphone because I just feel like I can't become a mom because I feel like I'm such a coward in my own life. I'm disappointed with me as an adult. How do you tell your kid, be what you want in life if I couldn't myself? And so I have to address all that baggage. I'm like, I'm just gonna go back to performance and get the Wiggles out. And what I do is go into solo performance because who's an asshole who goes to a theater to heckle someone, right? I'm safe. I'm safe on that stage. And within a year and a half, I turn it into a one woman show called 140 pounds how beauty killed My Mother. It's the search to know my mother so I can become one myself. Because my family wouldn't talk about her.
- [97:13]
Chelsea Devontez
Susan. Okay, so you cried about Desi. Lucy. I'm crying at this. It is so painful when someone daggers you. And like, and even in a small way, I still am like, I quit. And every day I have to be like, no, you fucking don't. But God, I wish I could find that person and run them over.
- [97:34]
Susan Liu
So, you know what's kind of sick is I feel like I need to confront my demons and I think I need to go back to stand up comedy. And I think I need to go track down the heckler and just do a quick zoom to understand their parent child dysfunction. I feel like I need to humanize this darkness, you know, And I'm not going to center the show on him, but it's more like, like, do you know what I mean? You just want to confront the fear.
- [97:56]
Chelsea Devontez
You must. And even if it's not him, like, there's some so many other heck, oh, no. Like, you can go find others. No, but I'm serious, though, in the sense of, like, in order to. And this is something that's like, just maybe I even talk too much about it. But it's like, it's so brutal to put yourself out there in any way and to hear back without a single filter. It's a lot. It's a lot. And to work up the thick skin that Lucy had To be like, I'm just gonna keep going. It's something I work at all the time.
- [98:34]
Susan Liu
Right. Because here's a fear. If someone heckles me and I'm scared, it's because that person is challenging my own sense of my own worthiness.
- [98:43]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [98:44]
Susan Liu
Do I not belong in this space? Do I not belong anywhere? Am I not lovable? Like, it's actually kind of testing how much personal growth I've gone through.
- [98:52]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, I love this. Okay, I. So I want to tell everyone, go vote for Susan's book. I'm serious. No, no, just let me. No, no, let me have this. Go vote for Susan's book. Please tell everyone where they can find your book. Support your work, be a part of your life, so that when this next show happens, we all rally and. And maybe yell at a heckler, like, tell us everything.
- [99:15]
Susan Liu
Take a bus to Rohnert Park, California, to Sally's Tomatoes. I'm still trying to book a date. You can buy my book, the Manicurist Daughter, wherever you find your books. I do do the audiobook, which was an Apple Must Listen of the month because I perform the characters. Find me on my podcast, Model Minority Moms, where we talk about being everyone for everyone else but ourselves. And then subscribe to my newsletter on my website, susanliu L I E. Thank.
- [99:39]
Chelsea Devontez
You for bringing me this book when I really needed it. Thank you for sharing your story. It really means a lot.
- [99:44]
Susan Liu
Thank you.
- [99:46]
Chelsea Devontez
A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sounds engineer, Marcus Homm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.