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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Lucinda Williams’s Memoir Don't Tell Anybody the Secrets I Told You (with Anna Sale)
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- [00:01]
Chelsea Devantez
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today@LinkedIn.com and conditions apply. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing. Don't tell anybody the Secrets I told you A memoir by singer, songwriter Lucinda Williams, released in April 2023. So pretty. You might know Lucinda from. I mean, just. Just so many great songs like Change the Locks, Passionate Kisses and Can't Let Go. Her career spans over 40 years, 16 studio albums, three Grammys, and in 2002, she was named America's Best Songwriter by Time magazine. This book has been highly requested over the years, so let's dive in. Don't tell anybody the secret.
- [01:57]
Anna Sale
Don't tell anybody the secrets I told.
- [02:07]
Chelsea Devantez
My guest today is Anna Sale. She hosts the interview podcast Death, Sex and Money. The podcast about things we think about a lot and need to talk about more. And hot plug. I was a guest on it a few months ago. And Anna is also the author of let's Talk about Hard Things, a guide for difficult conversations. She's been a fan of Lucinda Williams since she was a teenager and interviewed her for Death, Sex and money in an episode called Lucinda Williams says Whatever the Hell she Wants. It's such a great episode. We'll link it in the show notes. Anna hi, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:39]
Anna Sale
Hi, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [02:43]
Chelsea Devantez
This is just such a magical moment. Cause so many people have requested this book and I've been waiting to see who is gonna choose it. And when you chose this book and you had interviewed her, I said this is My psychic moment.
- [02:55]
Anna Sale
It was meant for you, and I hadn't read it. It's so interesting. Cause I feel like it's both a book experience, and it's made me dig back and pull up all of her albums, so it feel a soundtrack experience, too.
- [03:08]
Chelsea Devantez
There's so many song lyrics in the book. I was assuming that the audiobook plays her music throughout, which I think would make it a way better listen than a read. Cause there's so many songs throughout it. But did you read it physically?
- [03:19]
Anna Sale
I read it physically, and then I sang to myself. And then I thought, oh, I listened to this when I was, like, really obsessed with that guy in college. And, like, I was wishing he didn't tell anybody my secrets. And I love that song because of that. Because of all of her love angst songs. They applied during a lot of my twenties.
- [03:38]
Chelsea Devantez
I love that. And. Okay, before we dive fully into Lucinda, I just want to tell everyone that I, you know, I did a lot of press for the book, as much as I could do. And you were the very last interview I did. And you are the most gifted person on earth. When I'm serious. And, like, interviewing is an art form. And I don't think it's easy for people to see that until you speak with someone like, you. Like, I was like, oh, my God. Like, you just have such a generous and incredible gift. I just want to heavy, heavy plug that to everyone listening who already knows because they're already a fan of yours. But you really blew me away. Speaking with you was unreal. And you also got this incredible interview out of Lucinda that I think she was surprised that she shared so much with you. Did you get that feeling when you were talking to her?
- [04:27]
Anna Sale
Yeah, I think at the. She even said it at the very end of the episode. She was like. This was kind of like. Like Marc Maron, but, like, we didn't even get into menopause because we do talk about vaginal dryness, Lucinda and me. So I felt like high praise. Like, Marc Maron plus menopause.
- [04:43]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes, plus menopause. So if you like Marc Maron, you're gonna love Anna's interviews. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Anyways, I'm just. I'm really, really, really touched that you're here and that you came on the show. So thank you so much.
- [04:56]
Anna Sale
Thank you.
- [04:57]
Chelsea Devantez
Okay, so let's dive in to Lucinda's story overall, having been a fan, having spoken to her, reading the book at the very end. What are your overall feelings and thoughts about this book? Just like your big headline on it.
- [05:11]
Anna Sale
You know, Lucinda is famously this incredibly gifted songwriter who didn't achieve mainstream success until her mid-40s. So I had sort of known that she was well thought of for a long time in music circles, but struggled to sort of punch through in the industry. So I thought that would be sort of what this story was about. I also knew that her father was a poet and that her mother struggled with mental illness. So I thought that that would be what the story and both of those things are part of the narrative. But what I liked about this, it felt like I was sitting on a porch with Lucinda and she was like, oh, yeah. When I was, like, learning about. When I'm living in Chile with my family, this is what it was like, you know, So I felt like it's not overly writerly. It doesn't seem like it's written by a poet's daughter. It feels like a hang. And I also, in very glamorous trash fashion, it felt like a lot of her story was about needing to fight for her own vision of the kind of music she wanted to make and not to be pigeonholed or called a handful who was a crazy person because she was difficult to work with when she just had a really clear vision for the kind of music she wanted to make.
- [06:26]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, those were my favorite parts of the book, for sure, which I'm really excited to talk about. And, yeah, the book for me was like. It was like bits and bobs, and it's like, and then this and then this and then this person. And like, sometimes you were getting like, every detail of, like, every name of every person who'd ever passed through a music studio. And then other times, you were getting like, you know, an aerial view of something really intense in her life. Like, me and my brother aren't close, and he's not really in the book. And you never know why, you know, other than she wishes they were closer. And then sometimes the book took tangents where we learned about a man named Frank. I think I know more about Frank than I know about Lucinda.
- [07:03]
Anna Sale
Frank got her the Springsteen tickets that she took her now husband up to.
- [07:08]
Chelsea Devantez
Exactly. So. So really, starting from the beginning, you summed it up beautifully with her dad. Really, in the years she came up, she talked about on your podcast, like, when your parents divorce, no one lives with the dad. If your parents divorce, her parents divorce and she lives with her dad. She's closest to her dad because her mom is struggling with mental illness. And I believe she said her mom was schizophrenic, adjacent Perhaps bipolar. And growing up, her dad would always say, it's not her fault she's struggling with mental illness, which I just. That's so. What a stunning man, to have that understanding of mental illness back in a time when no one understood mental illness, especially in women.
- [07:50]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [07:50]
Chelsea Devantez
What was your thoughts on that relationship?
- [07:52]
Anna Sale
Yeah, I mean, I do think the tenderness of the relationship she had with her dad is really special. I sort of didn't know much about her mother, and I was delighted by how present her mother was as a cultural influence on Lucinda. It wasn't as if her mom was whisked away to a mental hospital and just wasn't a character in her life. Like, you really saw that she brought a lot. She loved the detail. She described her mother always having a piano in the place and wherever she was living until she got overwhelmed and would have to get rid of the piano, but then she'd have to get a new piano because she wanted to have a piano wherever she was living. So pianos going in and out of the house gave me sort of a sense of it all. And I also really thought a lot about the way that Lucinda tells us that she later learned that her mother, through family stories, was abused, experienced profound abuse from her older brothers and her father. And so I sort of thought a lot about man women in the south who were branded mentally ill and also had profound trauma. Just that stew. And I think that this is a story of just trying to piece it together and everybody doing the best they can, but, you know, we don't really know what her mom's brain chemistry was and what was growing up in the south with big family secrets.
- [09:18]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, that's so well said. And, yeah, it's one of those things where, like, what would her mom be diagnosed with now? With all we know about trauma and abuse. And she kept the story pretty vague, but just the idea that it was severe sexual abuse, including all her brothers and father, is just. And she kind of. She doesn't really tell you that till the very end. Like, you know, there's something there. And then at the very end, we figure it out a little bit. And while her dad is very understanding and understands her mom's really going through something at the same time.
- [09:52]
Anna Sale
Are you talking about Mama J?
- [09:55]
Chelsea Devantez
Oh, yeah, Mama. And Mama J is really not the right name for her. It should be, like, Missy J or Mistress J. So her dad, he's 35 years old. He's a poet. He's holding these, like, grand literary parties, and he's, like, a professor, and. And she talks about how all the old male professors who are geniuses with beards and they're balding on top, love having like a hot young poetry student as their girlfriend. And he gets one named Jordan. He's 35, Jordan is 18. And it's just suddenly like, Jordan lives here now. Jordan's gonna be your nanny. There's pictures of Jordan, Jordan and her mom in the house together. And Jordan is heartbreakingly in pigtails like, oh, God. And the. And the mom is just gently moved out.
- [10:48]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [10:48]
Chelsea Devantez
And it's something she doesn't seem to have the details for and obvious like who knows what happened. But then this 18 year old girl who's like six years older than her at the time becomes Mama J, becomes.
- [11:00]
Anna Sale
Her stepmom, and then is in her life for the rest of her father's life. Like, still. Yeah, stepmom.
- [11:06]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes, still. Still. Mama Jayan. And. But I mean, like, yeah, to watch your dad, this is such a weird tie in. But like, the man I thought was my dad was also dating women who was like four years older than me before I really process, like, he's not mine, so I don't, I don't have to process this anymore. But before I really understood that, I remember he was dating an 18 year old when I was like 16. And it really, really fucks you up to. I don't know, I'm sure there's some Freudian Whatever, whatever. But just like seeing this male figure in your life and what. How they are treating like someone just like you, like two years older than you and their youth and like trading your mom in, like, I just can't imagine how much this messed Lucinda up and she doesn't write enough about it. What, what did you think about her feelings with Mama J?
- [11:54]
Anna Sale
Mama J or Jordan is a family member and she's treated like a family member in this book. So there's boundaries that Lucinda wasn't gonna cross in ways that she does with plenty of bad boyfriends who. She gives us their first and last names.
- [12:08]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah.
- [12:09]
Anna Sale
And then to think Jordan was a poetry student and takes that path for what womanhood looked like. Lucinda's six years younger and is a poet and musician. And, you know, Lucinda Williams. Her life, she has said in interviews, my life at 18 is what my life is now. It just hasn't changed shape. I'm doing the same things. And so it kind of is. I've been reflecting on for a woman in Lucinda's generation to just be like, not opting in to that path, not gonna take care of any man. It's sort of like, okay, she works.
- [12:44]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, such a good point. Jordan wanted to be a poet, and that's so fascinating. I want to read what she said on page 80, which talks about exactly what you just said she said. An aspect of my life I think was a result of hanging around this wild scene as a teenager is that I had no desire to have my own kids. Never. It wasn't a gut wrenching decision for me at all, and I don't regret it today. I went on birth control at 18, and it never occurred to me to become a mother, not once. When I was growing up, I never saw any families really enjoying their children. I remember thinking as a teenager, wow, nobody seems to like having kids. Nobody seems happy with kids. It's a burden, not a joy. And it really reminded me of Chapel Roan, just very honestly, being like, my friends with kids seem really unhappy. And then the world exploded, and they're.
- [13:31]
Anna Sale
Like, no, we are happy.
- [13:34]
Chelsea Devantez
Where it's like, what do you care what she thinks? But it's the same sentiment.
- [13:37]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [13:38]
Chelsea Devantez
And I was really curious. I don't know if you're a mother or not, but I was really curious your thoughts on, like, Lucinda having that sentiment. And even still, weeks ago, people being enraged by the idea that someone says, like, this seems really hard. I think it's. I think it's a gift. Mothering's really hard. It seems really hard. Like, who wants to paint that? The work you do is nothing.
- [14:01]
Anna Sale
Yeah. No. Well, I have many thoughts on this. I do have two kids, and I did not participate in the mothers are making bad decisions or mothers are making great decisions Internet debate. Because I don't think there's just one answer.
- [14:13]
Chelsea Devantez
You don't participate in that fun debate of binary choices that don't convey the experience of motherhood. Okay, go on.
- [14:20]
Anna Sale
But I can remember when I was growing up, this is why Lucinda is, like, so visceral for me. I had a mom who had three daughters and was a very present mom, and she took care of the household. I had very, just stable, stable, stable, present mother. I also, as a teenager, was an intern at the ACLU with this wild woman from the south who was friends with Lucinda and everybody called her Muffin. When she was growing up in the south, she would make, like, sex jokes to, like, legislators. She was lobbying, like, just a bawdy woman. And I loved being around her and felt so sparked up by her. And I can remember it was just like, oh, you take the muffin course of life. Which is the Lucinda course of life. And you get to hang out with John Prine and, like, you know, all these were pictures in the office of Hillary getting to do all this. Or there's, like, my mom's path where you get to have, like, a really warm, you know, hopefully warm family unit. And it felt so stark. It's like, this is the fork in the road, Anna. You know, luckily. And for me, that hasn't really been such a stark choice, but I get it where Lucinda looks up and around and is like, if I want to protect this space, for me, in the time that I'm coming up, like, that's what it's gonna look like. It's gonna look like getting on the pill at 18 and not letting up.
- [15:44]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. I love what you said about it. It seeming like it's a stark choice because there's also moms who are muffin. Muffins are moms, you know, And I.
- [15:55]
Anna Sale
Think you had a muffin mom kind of.
- [15:57]
Chelsea Devantez
Oh, yeah, I had a muffin mom. You know, I know my mom. All she ever wanted to do is have kids. And I think about that and all the love she had for that and what a nightmare it is for her to have me as a daughter. And. And I'm not the worst. Like, I'm probably one of the better daughters you can have, and I'm a nightmare for her. I'm on a podcast every week being like. And then this happens, like. And so I think calling out, you know, how hard it can be to be a mom is just as beautiful as how wonderful it can be to be a mom. And yet when she wrote that, I said, oop, it's chapel round discourse, and everybody mad, but y'all. Okay, so there's a man early in the book, just some, like, random gentleman in a bar who obviously really made an impression on her because he's quoted in the book. He said, don't write about your childhood. Nobody wants to read about that. Just write about your music. Just pick a part of your career to write about. But my childhood informs so many of my songs. Some listeners hear these memories and feelings in my songs. One woman came up to me after a show and asked, did you have a rough childhood? I nodded my head as I was making my way backstage. I thought, so. She said, so I'm curious, just your opinion as a memoir reader, as an interviewer of people's lives. What do you think about the. Like, don't write about your childhood.
- [17:13]
Anna Sale
Well, first of all, I remember those lines, and I was like, why Is this in here? Like, we want to know about your childhood. This douchebag in a bar telling you not to write about your childhood. Like, we're here for it. Ignore him.
- [17:26]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah.
- [17:27]
Anna Sale
And also the idea that, like, some fan sort of looking at her and saying, you had a rough childhood, didn't you? What kind of fan says that to, like. It's just. It was such a weird set of little lines to remember, and clearly they sort of, like, hit her, you know, like that. Oh, from my music and from taking me in, you can tell the pain that I'm carrying around. And also, she's aware she's got these, like, dudes watching her and, like, trying to get her to not, you know, reveal her pain in the ways that she wants to.
- [17:59]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:00]
Anna Sale
And so maybe it's okay that she included those lines, but I was like, edit. Just let us be here for you, Lucinda. We want to read this.
- [18:07]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. It felt like a wound. And, I mean, I'm so guilty of this. And I think you can see it in memoirs sometimes where someone is writing something and you're like, that's for one person. Like, we're all gonna read it. But, like, this weird little thing you're including, that's, like, for Beverly, your neighbor, to read or whatever. And, like. Yeah, I think this is also one of the first times she's really opening up about her childhood. It's not like her lyrics are explicit or that she came up in the generation where you could openly talk about that. So this is, like, a big deal for her. And, I mean, her childhood is wild. She lives in 12 different cities by the time she's, like, 11. There are times where they're living in Mexico City, when they're in Chile, when they're at Flannery O'Connor's house. Like, I mean, like, what an incredibly wild childhood. And she comes up kind of as a hippie, and then it's really in Latin America where her career takes off. She's, like, performing songs with some guy, and they're like, you guys should go on tour. And then just kind of nonchalantly, she's like, yeah, I think people thought it was really cool. It was, like, this old guy and a young girl, and it's like, yeah, you think? And then she, like, plays all around Mexico, and that's, like, her first taste at 17 of, like, I'm just gonna be a musician. Like, she never goes back to school. She doesn't go to college, and she's a musician after that. What did you think of like those teenage years in her life, I thought.
- [19:32]
Anna Sale
Thank God somebody gave Lucinda Williams a guitar. Cuz, like, in a different era, she would have been like a chick hanging out with skateboarders. Or she would have been, you know, like, that was the path in that moment of, like, what you could grab if high school wasn't the place for you and if, like, conventions of the day weren't working for you. And then I was like, wow, she's like, almost like a child star. Like, she's been at this a long time, you know?
- [19:56]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, you're right, you're right. And it's. We'll get to it. But like, yeah, that. That struggle of not making it. Okay, we'll get to that in a second. But first, I do want to give her trigger warning. We're going to talk about sexual assault. There's just two things I want to bring up, which is that she's. These two really horrifying stories of, like, walking home alone and getting, like, this man pulling over and just like, throwing her into a ravine. And she knows he's going to sexually assault her. And then she said, suddenly something happened to me. My fight, flight or freeze system kicked in unconsciously, and I became completely still. I said to him in a calm voice, will you please get off me? This was not something I did consciously. It just happened. When I said that, he got up and started profusely apologizing. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Then he asked me if I needed a ride. I said no. What is this story?
- [20:51]
Anna Sale
Yeah. That almost felt to me like it was like, told in a memory flash, like, of visuals.
- [21:00]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah.
- [21:01]
Anna Sale
And it reminded me of, you know, that's like, characteristic of her songs. There'll be these, like, flashes of visuals. But the fact that she didn't comment on the. She just told us what happened. She was like, this is what came over. You know, we know she's dissociating. We can do all these things where it's like, that's what happened. But she just tells the story. And then I got back and I. Didn't she tell her dad not to let her sister walk by herself. Like, that was the way she reported, you know, told what happened. Look out for my sister. This isn't safe.
- [21:34]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, it's this kind of a miracle. It's this really rare moment that maybe. I mean, I don't even have words for it, so I can't imagine how she did. And I mean, right after it, she talks about another story. Her car breaking down and a man comes to help her just, you know, with his dick hanging out and he's like knocking on her window, being like, need help with your tire? And she's like, no. And how. Just devastating these were. And these are two. She goes through a lot and there's other assault in her life, but these are the ones that happened young. It's that original moment of realizing what your life is like as a woman and how dangerous it is. And just a page later, she's 31, she's kind of skipped ahead. And she's like, Charles Bukowski used to hang at our house at these parties. And I tell my dad, hey, you know, I think I'm gonna like, I should go try and find that cool Charles guy. Because she loves poets. She said, I told my dad about it. And he said, well, honey, you know that he'll probably try and screw you. And she's like, why? She said, how many fathers would say that to their 31 year old daughter? When I think back on those days in my late teens and those literary workshops and parties at our house, one thing that comes to mind is that my father was in his 40s at the time and Jordan was around 23 or 24 years old. My dad must have been kind of proud. He's got this young arm candy while he's hosting all these parties for the literati. That's what a lot of those male writers were looking for back then, even if they were married to someone else. Maybe they still do that today. Yeah, maybe they definitely do. And also, it seems like she's saying something pretty deep about her father here, that she's unwilling to actually say that he could warn his own daughter about the exact thing he's carried out in his own life. Is that what you took from that?
- [23:19]
Anna Sale
Yes. I feel like she's describing all these scenes that made her. And it doesn't even feel like she wrote this book. It feels like she's telling this book, which it says, that is beautifully said. Yeah, well. Cause I like, I was like, how did they make this? And in her acknowledgments, she talks about the process. I guess it started her husband did hundreds of hours of interviews with her, and then this writer did hundreds of hours more with her and then helped piece together Sam Stevenson. So it was sort of this process of like extracting oral history from her. That's kind of what I feel like we're catching her as. She's like, I'm gonna tell you the universe that I came up in and what made me and what I was attracted to. There's. For some reason, I was always attracted to these sensitive poets who had destructive tendencies. You know, that's been my type. I can see why, the way you tell these stories, you know, and also that that was cool and fun and what love, you know, this is the kind of what made me the artist that I am. So it's like she's describing this stew that she was swimming around in. And then as she's describing it, she's like, oh, hang on, wait, that story is kind of fucked up. And then let me, like, connect to that Bukowski moment, like. Yeah, but not fully. It feels tight, those moments, you know?
- [24:40]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. Yeah. That is a beautiful way to describe it. It feels like everything is there to completely understand her story, but she's not willing or not willing. She. Yeah, processing trauma is really hard, and she feels like she's at that moment where, like, you. You do have all the fragments. Like, you have all the pieces, but the work of putting them in order and tying lines to them is just excruciating. And, like, she has it of like, yeah, we know what. Like, we know why that's your type, but you haven't written down, like, you know, my father was a destructive poet on a motorcycle. Unless that is not what you were thinking.
- [25:16]
Anna Sale
I have, like, a very meta question for you, because sometimes when I read these celebrity memoirs where it's clear a lot of this lines are getting drawn and connected in ways that haven't been done before, and it's in service of us, the reader. It just is sort of like, what are we participating in?
- [25:34]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, I mean, I definitely. My taste or my senses. You know, I'm at, like, almost 300 celebrity memoirs in this podcast run. That's not including, like, all of them when I read when I was a kid. So I have, like, maybe, like, maybe I'm tougher on memoirs, obviously, than I would be had I not gone through this. But for me, this does not read like someone who has a handle on what they're telling you. She doesn't do a lot of reflection that connects the dots. You would have to be reading it critically to connect them for yourself. And the kind of bits and bobs and the way she weaves and bounces through time and has two paragraphs that are seemingly not about each other, but they are next to each other, to me, reminds me of Trauma Brain, which is my own brain, too, where it's. You're just kind of like a Jackson Pollock painting that could be made into a Van Gogh. But like, it just feels a little splattered. But did you feel like she had the handle on it when you were reading it?
- [26:36]
Anna Sale
I think that she's being honest with us.
- [26:39]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [26:40]
Anna Sale
To me, it feels like she's like, I have this body of work where I tell you in excruciating detail some of the things that have happened to me that have caused me pain and how I've tried to make sense of them. I mean, that's. There's some tough stuff in some of her songs. And then I feel like this book is like, here's my attempt to kind of give you more of the context.
- [27:04]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah.
- [27:04]
Anna Sale
It's not as if she's not looked close up at a lot of these moments in life. It does feel like, again, she's, like, telling. As opposed to, you know, there's not, like, body arc. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:21]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes. Yeah. Yes. There's no arc. There's no beginning, middle, end. Even in. In the story of her life, she's not really arcing you through it. I mean, for me, there. There's times where she's like, oh, by the way, my, like, extreme OCD probably got in the way. And you're like, wait, what? Like, that had to have been affecting every other story you've told me. Yes, but, like, you haven't pulled that through. But then we do know, like, extreme OCD and maybe some other things, because then there'll be a paragraph at the very end where she's like, you know, I had some extra money, and I thought maybe I should try meth. And for me, I'm going, yeah, because you're in pain. You're in pain, and you're thinking, like, maybe this will help. Cause you're also dealing with, like, extreme ocd, which you would need some relief from. But I didn't feel. Those are just the lines I'm making up. That could not be true.
- [28:05]
Anna Sale
Yeah, you know, you're making me remember that. She tells us that the day that they've made plans to go into the jewelry store with her now husband, you know, they park the tour bus in the parking lot next to the jewelry store in Omaha to get the diamond. Intending to go the next morning, she described some kind of OCD episode where she was dealing with a lot of feelings of overwhelm, and they finally got into the store with 15 minutes to spare, and she felt rushed by the sales clerks. And I thought, oh, you haven't told us of the very many instances where you just could not. It took you a while to be ready And I imagine that happened a lot in her life. But the one she is sharing with us is when her now husband is with her and is like, we'll get there. We'll get there. And she's not shamed for the, you know, it taking her a while. And I was like, oh, this is a nice glimpse into why this relationship feels so safe for her.
- [29:05]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, that's a really good point, because the first husband you're talking about is Greg. And Greg gets a paragraph and a half.
- [29:11]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [29:11]
Chelsea Devantez
She's like, I kind of married this guy, but it didn't work. But we did go to a ring store. And then you're like, what happened? She, like, just didn't work. You're like, is that it? She's like, he was seven years younger than me. And then we just move on. Greg's gone. And so it's hard. It was hard to learn a lot from that, but. But you sharing that jewelry story reminded me of this one. This was the story where I said, you could do a whole book on this, and it's just three paragraphs. She gets nominated for a Grammy, and her reaction was mixed. She was excited, but then she was like, I'm really overwhelmed to attend the Grammys. What am I going to wear? Will I look good? Are my teeth pretty enough? Which also is like being a woman in music. Enters the chat, and Roseanne Cash is like, I will fly you to New York City. We will pick out your Grammy outfit. She's 41, finally getting attention. She's supposed to get on the plane, and she writes this. My trip to New York was all set up. I had a flight booked. I had a hotel room, and Roseanne arranged an appointment at the clothing shop. And they knew my sizes and everything, and they had selections of outfits waiting for me to try on that afternoon. My friend Dub, which there's some great names in this book. My friend Dub was going to pick me up and take me to the airport in Nashville. When he arrived, I was still in my pajamas, and I hadn't packed my bag or anything. Lou, what the hell are you doing? He asked. Let's go down to Sunset Grill and get something to eat and have a glass of wine. I said, I didn't go to New York. I didn't go to the Grammys. I froze in fear afterward when the story of my decision emerged. People asked, you get up and play in front of people all the time. What was the problem? I know, I know. I would say, I just get self conscious in front of certain kinds of people. And then she just said, I just didn't feel like I belonged. And I've gotten a little bit better about it. And it's such a short story for like, you missed the Grammys for your first ever nomination as a woman at 41 who'd finally, you know, Roseanne Cash must have been fucking pissed.
- [31:04]
Anna Sale
Roseanne did all this work for you.
- [31:06]
Chelsea Devantez
And by the way, I am the Roseanne Cash in this story. I'm like, we're going to get your tits out. We're taking a picture and a love it girlfriend. And then she's just like, I'm going to go to the diner and have a quiet breakdown and I won't be there. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Did you know you can give yourself an eyelash curl just by using the tips of your fingers and pressing your eyelashes upward? This is especially helpful if you have finicky eyelashes. And my favorite mascara of all time is thrive Cosmetics liquid lash extensions mascara. It has five different shades. It doesn't have clumping, smudging or flaking. And it comes off really softly and gently, which is really nice. It looks like lash extensions. Thrive cosmetics makes certified 100% vegan and cruelty free products. And Thrive cosmetics donates to causes with every purchase, including domestic violence, which is a very important cause to me. Go get your liquid lash extension mascara and discover your new trusty favorite from thrive cosmetics, luxury beauty that gives back. Right now, you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A u S E M E t I c s.com glamorous for 20% off your first order. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of of everything good in this world, stop with mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [32:50]
Anna Sale
Of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent.
- [32:52]
Chelsea Devantez
To $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only.
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Anna Sale
Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
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Chelsea Devantez
See full terms@mintmobile.com this episode is brought to you by the Nissan Armada Pro 4X with a twin turbo V6 engine ready to propel your adventures up to 8,500 pounds of towing capacity to haul all your favorite toys and space for eight Passengers, Nissan's most powerful car yet, will chew up and spit out anything you throw at it. Learn more about the all new 2025 Nissan Armada at nissanusa.com Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing guide and Owner's manual for additional information. Always secure cargo. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. It made me really sad and it just made me feel like we're missing a lot.
- [33:39]
Anna Sale
I did like that she included it and that she took responsibility, that she was like, the Sunset Grill. And also that she leaves out the whole scene of what happens once they get to the grill. We just hear, I didn't get on the plane in New York.
- [33:52]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, yeah. It's like, how much wine was there? What other things happened? Or was it just a nice glass of wine? We missed the flight? Like, yeah, yeah.
- [34:00]
Anna Sale
And then also that she said, are my teeth pretty enough? Which, you know, teeth are such a class infused thing that we worry about. And also maybe regional My teeth. Are my teeth pretty enough? Like, that just breaks my heart, you know?
- [34:14]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, yeah. And it kind of speaks to, like, photos where you're smiling and like. Yeah, it's. Yeah. Okay, let's get to another part of the book where it's before she's married, Greg, and she's still a teenager. And her dad was like, hey, look, I know kids have sex, but just don't. And then when you're 18, we'll get you on the pill. And she's like, yeah. So I just waited. And then when I was 18, I got on the pill. And she said, after I started the pill, I didn't waste much time, though. Those were the days when you'd just go and go and go until the bed broke or something. I said, what? And then she kept going in a way where it's like, Lucinda has like broken many beds. And then she was like, maybe the. The beds were cheap back then. Which, like, no, Lucinda, they're Che now they're Ikea. Back then it was real wood. She was just breaking bed in the house.
- [35:07]
Anna Sale
Just a wire mat, like under my. I wasn't even picturing like a wooden bed.
- [35:12]
Chelsea Devantez
I'm just like, yeah, maybe it was just like a mattress on cinder blocks or something. Cause I mean. Yeah. Anyways, she was letting us know she got it done.
- [35:20]
Anna Sale
I know I had a flash of like, God damn it. I missed some opportunities in my 20s. Now that I'm perimenopausal, why didn't I break beds?
- [35:31]
Chelsea Devantez
Well, yeah, listen, if you're out there.
- [35:33]
Anna Sale
I broke the three Hour mark, man, what did I miss?
- [35:35]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, it's just. And I just, like. I can't imagine being happy about it. At hour three, I'm someone who's like, I don't eat. That's not. That wouldn't come anywhere near my fantasies. Three hours. Okay. So then she goes into this story where she's in New Orleans, I think New Orleans. And she's like, there was this poet named Frank Stanford. Now Frank gets this giant chapter.
- [35:59]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [35:59]
Chelsea Devantez
He's 29 years old. He's married to a beautiful, smart woman named Jenny Crouch, full name, who was a painter. Frank was living on the side with another beautiful, smart woman, the poet Carolyn C.D. wright. And then, I mean, she prints his poems. She talks about how she finds him irresistible, how she's in love with him, and how they don't have a relationship and they don't have a sexual relationship, but they have these, like, two months of just, like, intimate she's in love with him conversations. And then again, trigger warning for suicide. She said, my relationship with Frank lasted only about two months. And then he killed himself. And I was like, what? It happens so fast. And then she talks about how his two lovers had confronted him about cheating on them in an open marriage with many other women. And that she's going to the funeral, being like, was I one of the other women? And then later, like, people look up his work and find, like, her names in his pages. This was. It was just such an in depth, long story compared to anything else.
- [37:00]
Anna Sale
Well, then she loops back around to say, well, what Frank's sister thinks happened is it was the women's fault.
- [37:07]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. And she's like, they shouldn't have confronted him. They knew he was a whore. So why are you mad at him? And you killed him. Yeah, well, you know what? Put a pin in that, you guys. Cause it's unfortunately gonna. We'll come back. Okay. So then she's trying to make it. She's trying to break through, and. And there's a lot of struggle. She writes this. She said, people often assume that I would be bitter that I didn't hit it big until I was well into my 40s. But that's not how I feel. It happened when it was meant to happen. Musically, I was far ahead of where people thought I was. I had a vision. I just had to wait to find a way to fulfill it. The trouble for me was that I didn't always know how to communicate my vision. I didn't know how to articulate it. And she was just like, I Could never do what I had in my head until I was in my 40s. And she said, I also grew up in a family where there wasn't ageism or sexism. The fact that I was still working at taco joints and record stores well into my 30s didn't bother me at all.
- [38:06]
Anna Sale
I thought that line was so striking because this is around the time where she's describing the joy she had in selling sausage at the farmer's market. Right, yeah. Like, she was like very into it. And I thought, wow, like, when you pare down what you know you need, you know, there's a lot of room for enough, you know. And so I didn't feel that sense of like, I gotta break through, when am I gonna be successful? Like, I believe her that she was, I agree. Yeah, content to be kind of a person who was gigging. But then to attribute it to there not being ageism or sexism in her family. I was like, huh, that's a large statement. You know, Is it ageism in a family? Why people have expectations for certain achievement milestones to be hit? Maybe does the fact that she thinks there wasn't sexism, she's saying there my dad let me be a different sort of woman. And that was okay and that was freeing and I believe her. But also, that's just a complicated thing to say for the reasons we've already discussed.
- [39:10]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I underlined that and I said that that's not true at all. There was a lot of ageism and sexism in your family, as is. As it is in society. It's everywhere. And yeah, I think you hit it on the head perfectly. But it. Her dad raised her differently than how he treated the women in his life and let her, you know, be free of ageism and sexism, like in their relationship. And maybe what he passed on to her is, is what I took from it because you were just talking about how he's bringing an 18 year old into the house as a prize. So, yeah, it was, it was, it was really fascinating. And I, I also think this is me just making, making stuff up. But like that thing about needing to go slow for her with like the diamonds and with the Grammys, this is how she needed her career to happen. She needs to go slow and process and process and process. And so it really did happen at the perfect. And I think that's also why she wasn't upset at it, because she might not be someone who's ready to go fast at things. So I don't know.
- [40:18]
Anna Sale
I Hadn't thought of that. You know, I also want to just say it's interesting. I'm feeling like protective of Jordan in ways that I'm. I think maybe. Cause I just know older Southern women because it's, you know, it's an age gap relationship. And we have questions about, in their origination, however, like, we don't actually know because this book doesn't tell us. We don't know the dynamics of their relationship, how much they were equal partners in the way that they moved through their marriage. Like, we don't get that information. So I think that we know that Lucinda, compared to her peers or compared to, you know, Jordan, as an 18 year old poetry student, had a lot more freedom to run. But we don't actually know how her father treated his wife because we don't get to know.
- [41:08]
Chelsea Devantez
I love facing that and pondering that. And I, I definitely come with so many, like, nope, you're the teacher, you're the student. Like we are. You know what I mean? We didn't wait. You met his wife, you lived with.
- [41:21]
Anna Sale
Her while she were also my kind of nanny.
- [41:24]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, through the nanny. She wasn't. She didn't know you were coming to the house. She was unaware. You know, Lucinda's talking about how at these parties, these older poets wanted younger women.
- [41:34]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Chelsea Devantez
For me, I'm sure they're very happy. There's lots of age gap relationships that are so happy, but the power dynamics remain, even if you did wonderfully with them. And yes, I just listen, I just bring too much baggage to this to probably read it fairly. But I think to say there's no ageism in my family. But like when my father remarried, it was to his student. I'm like, that is, Is that nuts? A form of ageism, like against her mother, against, like out with the old, in with the new.
- [42:07]
Anna Sale
Yeah. I mean, so complicated. I don't know if ageism, I mean that she was sick and he had how many kids? Three kids? Four kids. Three kids, yeah. It was a really difficult situation.
- [42:21]
Chelsea Devantez
This is what makes you such a genius at what you do. And thank you for standing up for Mama Jeff. Cause I'm just being such a bitch over here. I'm like, how dare he? She wanted to write poems. Okay.
- [42:35]
Anna Sale
She might write poems. We don't know. I don't know.
- [42:38]
Chelsea Devantez
Don't you feel like Lucinda would have told us?
- [42:42]
Anna Sale
She didn't include any of Mama J's poems in her book.
- [42:46]
Chelsea Devantez
That is true. Yeah. So she talks about the song Change the Locks that basically in her Many, many attempts to get her music made and get commercial deals. Gets one for $35,000. As someone who hosts a podcast called Death, Sex and Money, don't you love it when people give you the exact amount?
- [43:06]
Anna Sale
I loved it. I was like, ooh, interesting. I really appreciated those details.
- [43:12]
Chelsea Devantez
And she gets I $35,000, I believe, from RCA. And then they hear what she made and they say, no, thank you. And then later, you know, she shops it. She gets told no again. Now she's like, I'm 33 years old. I'm ancient for, like, a woman making in the music. And then every time she goes, maybe it's still like that. And it's like, Lucinda, it is. Nothing has changed. And so she talks about meaning with an executive who tells her that Change the Locks is not a real song and it's not finished because it doesn't have a bridge. And how years later, it becomes her most beloved song of all time. But this executive had been like, this is not a real song.
- [43:48]
Anna Sale
I was like, oh, my God. I've never noticed that her songs don't have bridges. And I will tell you, when I listen to a song that has a stupid bridge that you can tell that they wrote at the very last point of the song, I'm like, this is a dumb. This ruined the song for me. And I was like, thank God you stood up for your no bridgeness. So many of her songs just feel like poems set to rock and roll music. And the choruses are unconventional. I think that's what's cool about her music. But I hadn't ever thought, oh, she doesn't have bridges. And then how she has to say and point out to the reader, bob Dylan doesn't have bridges in all of his songs. Oh, yeah, you know, like, Dylan doesn't have that bridges.
- [44:25]
Chelsea Devantez
Tom Petty.
- [44:26]
Anna Sale
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:28]
Chelsea Devantez
And yeah, she really does point out a lot of this time of when sexism is just so rampant in people's approach to her. Talking about Bob Dylan, let's do the quick Bob Dylan story where she's like.
- [44:39]
Anna Sale
She's like, yes, please.
- [44:41]
Chelsea Devantez
She meets him at a bar and he's like, hey, I am Bob Dylan. And she's like, hyperventilating. And he's like, we should keep in touch. And she's like, yeah, we should keep in touch. They never do. Like, two decades later, she gets a call to open on the road for him, and she's like, absolutely. My dream. She opens for him for two months on the road, does not see or speak to him.
- [45:04]
Anna Sale
Once does not have the opportunity to have a conversation with him, nor Van Morrison, who was also part of that tour. And I was like, thank you, Lucinda, for telling us that. And how she's like, that makes my one memory of talking to Bob Dylan all the more precious. And I was like, also, it demonstrates a lot about the. That you were touring with, like, two.
- [45:24]
Chelsea Devantez
Months on the road and you never even saw them. How did he. Is he magic? Like, how did they pull that off? Never crossing backstage. Never. Like, they must have been like, you'll stay in Motel A, in a dressing room across the street. And like, I don't know how they did it. Yeah.
- [45:45]
Anna Sale
And never saying thank you. Like, never saying.
- [45:48]
Chelsea Devantez
Never giving her credit. Never trying to meet as, like, artists who should have each other's backs, especially when you're the big famous one. Yeah. Very, very weird. And then as she's getting this record deal, she's asked by south by Southwest to take part in a conversation called Does Commercialism Affect Creativity? And she doesn't tell us what she said. She just says she gets a call after that that says, congratulations, you've been kicked off of RCA's label. And she was like, I was happy about it. Like, I was finally fucking free from them. And she makes a record through this punk label. And then after that, there's like, some label messiness business, and she ends up signing with Rick Rubin. Are you a Rick Rubin fan?
- [46:32]
Anna Sale
I did not know this. And it makes me. I mean, tell the people what happened. I was like, what?
- [46:39]
Chelsea Devantez
I. I mean, I don't personally have strong feelings about Rick, except maybe now I do. But I know lots of people are like, he is my creative guru.
- [46:48]
Anna Sale
Yeah.
- [46:50]
Chelsea Devantez
He makes this record with her and then sits on it for two years and refuses to release it. And when they're like, could you please release it? He's like, nah. And then she says, there was a long, horrendous feature story on me in the New York Times Magazine that unfairly threw gasoline on the rumors that her recording process had been difficult. The writer made me out to be a control obsessed lunatic. The title of the article was, Lucinda Williams is in Pain.
- [47:19]
Anna Sale
Can you imagine? Like, a feature story in the New York Times Magazine with that headline?
- [47:24]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes.
- [47:24]
Anna Sale
I mean, what is in pain? Yeah.
- [47:31]
Chelsea Devantez
And I mean, this is the exact same reason you would be like, he's a genius. They're like, she's crazy. She had a lot of opinions about her own album, you Monsters. It's Barbra Streisand. She's an out of control Diva who wants things to go her way, really. The writer, director and star of the musical Yentel has thoughts about how it should go when she's doing four jobs. It's heartbreaking. And Rick just sits on the. Won't even give it to people, and is like, this isn't coming out. And then she said, my manager, Frank Kolari, different Frank than the poet Frank. He knew of Rick's spiritual side, and Frank shared that interest. Frank called Rick one night at home and said, dude, you gotta do this, man. It's a spiritual thing. Look into your third eye, Rick. Look into your third eye and tell me you don't see that Lou's record should be put out there. I see, said Rick. And he agreed to release the record.
- [48:30]
Anna Sale
For a sum of money. That Lucinda tells us what it is, doesn't she?
- [48:33]
Chelsea Devantez
Like, right after that, she doesn't even know it right away. She's like, yes, thank God the record is coming out. What happened was that Rick heard that her lawyer's brother had been given a copy of the record and was willing to pay almost half a million dollars to buy it from him. And he looked into his third eye and accepted the check.
- [48:52]
Anna Sale
That's what I thought was so funny. It's a spiritual process that's also highly compensated. And what's interesting about that whole story, this is the recording of Car Wheels on a Gravel Road. You know, she'd already had an album, but Car Wheels is, like, her breakthrough, breakthrough, big album, and it took a long time to get done. And as she's describing the recording process, like, she speaks with reverence about what it was like to get to work with Rick Rubin. So I felt like there was this really interesting mix of who she was creatively deferential to, even as she's describing being treated poorly by them. Like, even after telling us that Bob Dylan didn't talk to her for two months when she was opening for him, when she's already a musical star, she keeps referencing him and, like, wanting her next album to sound like this other Dylan. Like, she just has such reverence for them. And so I thought, huh, that's interesting. You don't have a shit list of, like, look at these assholes who treated me poorly and got in my way. Like, she instead is talking about how they, you know, how they enabled her, in Rick Rubin's case to, like, get that sound that she was after with Car Wheels that she really fought for.
- [50:04]
Chelsea Devantez
Good point. And even there's another character in this story that she's very loving towards. And writes in the book, I've forgiven him. I've reached out to him, and he's still being a public asshole to me. And it's a man named Gurf G U R F and Girf is in her band and is mixing her album in a way that she thinks. Thinks sucks. And she finally goes behind his back and mixes it in a way that everyone says, this is way better and beautiful and brilliant in our favorite album. And Girf storms out and has never spoken to her again. And in interviews is like, the way I mixed it was actually better. And she's like, I don't know why Girth, like, is still holding on to this. And, like, I've let it go and. But, like, he won't even answer my phone calls. So she's even forgiving towards this, who is a huge part of this. The reason why the record was so contentious.
- [50:56]
Anna Sale
Yeah, that made me sad too, man.
- [51:00]
Chelsea Devantez
I know.
- [51:01]
Anna Sale
Get these boys some therapy.
- [51:03]
Chelsea Devantez
Well, speaking of. Ryan Adams comes into the book.
- [51:08]
Anna Sale
I wasn't expecting that. I did not know these stories.
- [51:12]
Chelsea Devantez
I mean, I'm. This one devastated me. So, Ryan Adams, musician. A lot of people think, depending on how old you are and where you're from, you might be thinking of Bryan Adams. It's not Brian Adams. It is Ryan Adams, and he's this, like, musical savant who moves to Nashville. He and Lucinda begin flirting. She's older than him, and they're having vodka tonics, and they're making out, and she makes out with him, and she. She nibbles on his lip, and he's like, don't bite. And he storms away, and he never speaks to her again. And she's like, ah. And when they see each other again, he's like, let's flirt. And she's like, apologize to me. Apologize to me. Which I love. And she talks about it a bit, and then she writes this. After the allegations arose around 2019 about sexual misconduct in Ryan's past, I thought the right thing to do was reach out to him. I called him and he said, I hope you don't think I'm a monster. I don't think you are a monster, Ryan. I said, I think you just made some bad choices. I said, lucinda, no, Lucinda, why? You didn't even have to tell us about this man.
- [52:20]
Anna Sale
Like, that was another detail where it was, like, interesting that that paragraph is included, you know, like, yeah, I think.
- [52:26]
Chelsea Devantez
She really wants us to know that she doesn't think he's a monster. And we won't get into it because It's. It's a lot, but, like, very credible allegations. He did really horrific things, abusing women. And here she is offering her forgiveness and like, a pass in print on it to a man she owes nothing to, who is actually also shitty to her. Except Lucinda never gave him the chance or. Except she bit his lip and so he walked away. Like, who knows the difference? But it doesn't mean that he. I don't know. This really, really made me sad.
- [53:02]
Anna Sale
Huh.
- [53:03]
Chelsea Devantez
But what do you think? Tell me. Argue me.
- [53:06]
Anna Sale
That story and the Gerf story, I was like, oh, the intended audience for this is also people who are deep into Americana music blogs. And so there's maybe some stuff that is kind of like they felt like they had to include or her commenting on. Cause it'd been picked up at some point. Or like, I was like, I don't know how. This is just. I don't need to know that you had vodka tonics and kissed Ryan Addams and, you know. Yeah.
- [53:34]
Chelsea Devantez
Or that, like, isn't it, like, I loved this person and, like, I thought he was so cool and we had flirtations and it's so hard for me to wrap my head around this other thing. And isn't it a struggle when you've had intimacy with someone who could have also done bad things? And, like, I don't even know what to say. Yeah, why not say that?
- [53:53]
Anna Sale
I mean, because she talks about being poorly treated by many men and she never quite says that about any of them. Yeah, like, I loved them. And also there were these sides to them that were really created pain and hurt. You know, even Frank Stanford, who, you know, obviously created a lot of drama and left a lot of hurt people in his wake. It's just this question of, like, was he a brilliant poet who women treated poorly and drove him crazy, or was he, you know, like, I think it's interesting she stops short of condemning men.
- [54:27]
Chelsea Devantez
I feel like she has a lot of forgiveness for men in a way that was maybe, like, taught, like, in the time she grew up in or how you view certain things. Because there's a lot of times when I didn't feel like she needed to forgive someone. And she did. She offered it. But that is also her character. She's, you know, she's forgiving girth.
- [54:47]
Anna Sale
Well, well. And maybe it's also the price of admission to be the coolest rocker at the rock and roll party or the cool woman poet at the poetry party. You know that. Yeah, there it is.
- [54:59]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah, that's it. I will say right in the Middle of this Ryan Adams story, there's just this quick Annie Lebowitz gossip also imprints. And she's like, annie Lebowitz showed up to take my picture. She'd gotten wasted with Ryan the night before, and she's like. And I'd washed my hair. And you're never supposed to wash your hair before a photo shoot as a. As if it's a rule. She's like, by the way, your hair should always be dirty for a photo shoot. Okay, okay, Lucinda. And Annie starts photographing her anyway. And then she goes. Annie says, oh, yeah, I pretty much everybody in my book. Or something like that. I know she's a lesbian. Or I guess she's bi. I don't know. It doesn't matter. People, people, whatever. Who cares? Anyways, Ryan and I didn't stay in touch. I said, what do you mean, who cares? Why did you write this down? Why was it immediately her sexuality?
- [55:53]
Anna Sale
That was a moment where I was like, huh? I can hear it being a transcribed part of a conversation that was recorded. And then they're like, eh, I'll leave it in.
- [56:01]
Chelsea Devantez
But, Anna, it's so funny because, like you said, hundreds of hours of interviews, and they're like, you know what? Keep in that Anna Leibovitz paragraph where she wondered if she was bi. Why? Well, another really cool, like, amazing part of her life, which I adore, is that she gets married in her 50s, and that's when her sort of, like, Greg gets. I guess she did marry Greg, but according to the book, not really. And she really meets her husband. Who. Let me read this paragraph. She meets her husband Tom, and he was in the music business, and they begin this relationship, and she writes. A few years after I started dating Tom, an article appeared in Rolling Stone in which I mentioned I was going out with him. At the time Tom was working at Universal, and he said that after some of his colleagues read the Rolling Stone article, they went up to him and said something to the effect of, be careful. Our reps at her label tell us that she's literally insane. Tom was smart enough to know that there were many male artists who can make creative decisions the way I do, and nobody calls them insane. Same. He knows women have been treated differently for millennia. I knew I wanted to marry Tom. Tom is a really beautiful love story in her life, and also someone who was told that she was literally insane by people she had worked with. It's heartbreaking.
- [57:22]
Anna Sale
Yeah. I also wanted to know more about Tom's like. She describes him as, like, cool in the way that all the men that she's drawn to are cool, but with a solidness that many of the other men didn't have. And it just made me want to be like, who were the women in Tom's life that prepared him for being able to let her kind of put her shoulders down and feel safe with him?
- [57:46]
Chelsea Devantez
Give us Tom's mom's moire and fellow women who helped shape this. Well, he says to her, let's get married on stage. And she's like, Hank Williams did. That's awesome. And the closest thing we have to a psychic moment in this book is that she said, we Got married in September 18, 2009. 918. 9. It forms one of my life path numbers and numerology terms. I can be a little new agey. Nine is the month. One and eight make nine, and the year was nine. And the funniest part to me is that her dad wrote their wedding vows, not officiated, and didn't write the efficient speech. He wrote her and Tom's vows to each other.
- [58:37]
Anna Sale
That's true. And then she quotes it. It has, like, a yet with lots of commas.
- [58:42]
Chelsea Devantez
I love you for all the things I do not yet know. Yeah. And the commas are very, like, artistic poetry license.
- [58:50]
Anna Sale
Yes. I do not yet know.
- [58:53]
Chelsea Devantez
And also, like, how do you know what. It is so weird. And then the book is really ending. And the last line of the book is about her father passing away and how Hank Williams had passed away on New Year's Day, too. And she said, 1953, the month and year I was born. Too cool to be forgotten is the last line of the book. And she has an epilogue in the first sentence. Everyone get ready to Dringo. A few years after we got married, Tom became my manager. So he's a husband juror. And I hope he's a good one. I hope he's breaking the stereotype.
- [59:37]
Anna Sale
We hope so. We hope so.
- [59:39]
Chelsea Devantez
We hope so. And. And then. Yeah. And then she kind of has this, like, little list where she comes back and it's like, oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Like, I forgot to tell you to. It's a really long. It's like, visit the desert, go to the zoo, go to a country fair, Ride the Ferris wheel, dance. Even if you don't know how to dance, Talk to the guy who's working in construction on the block. Don't litter the earth. Like, it's like a. Yeah. Do you have some of that underlined?
- [60:03]
Anna Sale
Well, I also liked that it included read the Four Agreements.
- [60:06]
Chelsea Devantez
Okay, Anna, I have to know your take on that book. Do you ever read Those Us Weekly 25 things you didn't know about me? Okay, so I read them every week. I post them on Instagram. That book is the. That one in the Alchemist. Every single time. My favorite book is the Four Agreements or the Alchemist, and sometimes it's the Bible. Now tell me. So here she is. Read the Four Agreements. I said, here we go. What do you think about that as a book selection?
- [60:33]
Anna Sale
I thought it was a little basic for Lucinda.
- [60:36]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes. This is like, really? If you ask Kourtney Kardashian her favorite book, she says, the Four Agreements. That's on record. And I said, lucinda, you can do better than that.
- [60:47]
Anna Sale
Yeah, I would have cut that if I were copy editing that part. The thing about it, the Four Agreements is basic and also a lot of, like, universally useful, like, knowledge.
- [60:58]
Chelsea Devantez
Try your best. Don't take universally. It's just Four Agreements. There's just four of them.
- [61:01]
Anna Sale
It's good. It's good. They're handy. However, that book, I'm not sure if, like, everyone has to read that book. You can just be told the Four Agreements and move on.
- [61:10]
Chelsea Devantez
I agree. I also think that book is. Because it is so accessible, it leads to a lot of people learning the messages and repeating them incorrectly. So, like. Cause, like, you can look at Kourtney Kardashian and you're like, you're not following the Four Agreements. And she's like, it's my favorite book. Yes, I am. And you're like, but you're okay. And I think the book allows for some misinterpretation.
- [61:34]
Anna Sale
It provides cover for too many assholes. Yep.
- [61:37]
Chelsea Devantez
Yep.
- [61:37]
Anna Sale
I did like the line, trust your friends with kindness. You will need them one day. I thought, oh, that's sort of nice.
- [61:43]
Chelsea Devantez
Trust your friends with kindness. That's a beautiful line. I love that. Okay, Anna, it is time for the book Dull Test. Three questions. We're both going to answer all three. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?
- [61:59]
Anna Sale
Yes.
- [62:00]
Chelsea Devantez
Yes, I totally agree. Second question, was it entertaining to read?
- [62:11]
Anna Sale
Yes.
- [62:13]
Chelsea Devantez
We're leaving that entire pause in because I think it's important. I'm gonna break some hearts because this book has been really heavily requested, so I think I had different expectations. This was a no for me. And it's just. It's not like a blanket statement. It's my very subjective taste. But I really like beginning, middles, and ends. I really don't like, kind of like just memories that Scatter about I Need story. It felt like it would be a really cool audiobook.
- [62:42]
Anna Sale
It's like, if I think of this as I'm getting to hang out with Lucinda and hearing some backstory about songs that I think are canon, that are just like, you know, it was a fine ride. If I was looking at it, like, is this an entertaining book that I feel like was crafted with the reader in mind? I think less so.
- [63:02]
Chelsea Devantez
Yeah. And you know what? I hope that everyone listening knows that book, Dual Tests is done with love. Because Cher's book was a no for me. She's my number one hero. But when you really, really look at the book, it just didn't deliver, especially for Cher fans. And that's okay because she's given us so much. Other art and celebrity memoirs exist in their own genre because loving them is part of reading them. And so, like, yeah, it's funny, there's a bunch of people I adore who got a no for me on some things, and it doesn't matter to me either. Like, doesn't touch my love for them. I hope you feel that way, too.
- [63:41]
Anna Sale
Yes, yes, absolutely. But I am curious about it being highly recommended by listeners. I know maybe they're super fans. Lucinda. Super fans. I wonder if they're super fans of this book. I'd be curious.
- [63:53]
Chelsea Devantez
I know you're there, so leave us some Patreon comments. Cause I really wanna know. I think there's beautiful things that draw you to the book. But, yeah, I'm very curious. Okay, final question. You never know the answer to this. I never know the answer to this. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?
- [64:06]
Anna Sale
I think it did, but maybe it's very particular to. It made me think about boomer women of the south, of which there are lots and lots of them in my life, and who had really rigid life paths that they navigate it around in different ways. And so I feel like it elevated my life to get to think about Lucinda and all those women who I love and get to think about them as, like, you know, people who came up in a time. It's very different from when I came up.
- [64:36]
Chelsea Devantez
And, yeah, this book very much elevated my life because. I don't know if I'll say this right, but I always think to myself, like, I can never take feedback because I won't know if it's real or it's. It's because you hate women. Like, it's hard. And like, I. And I actually. I take feedback way too often. But, like, I really like Taking in. How does the audience feel? What do people think? What? Like, I think it's really important to pay attention to the people who are taking in your art and really grow from it. But when you're a woman on the Internet and open up to that, there's a party that's like, I don't know what's real and what's like some demon inside you that, like, hates that I have makeup on. And it was really cool to read this story about her success and how long it took and how much patience it took.
- [65:23]
Anna Sale
Yes. And I think anybody who watched the Chalamet Dylan movie and all the ways we just lauded the way he was so brave and switching to rock and, oh, my God, what a genius. And like, I think it's a good companion for that because you get to see just the mythology around Dylan. I just have had enough with imagine.
- [65:42]
Chelsea Devantez
The Lucinda Williams, Joan Baez, Loretta Williams movie opening up with those disgusting fingernails. Would you get one more second into that movie before they were like, she's a witch burner. Anna, thank you so much. You were such a gift. You really enlighten me every time I speak to you. Please tell everyone where they can find your work, support your work. You have a newsletter. You have all kinds of things. So just we please plug everything.
- [66:09]
Anna Sale
Oh, thanks for saying that. Our show is death, sex, and money. And you can find it at deathsexmoney.org@slate or wherever you listen to podcasts. And I do write a weekly newsletter. You can get it if you go to annasale.substack.com My newsletter is a little bit about the kinds of stuff I'm working on and also about the things I'm paying attention to and listening and reading. I think of it as my opportunity to make a digital zine every week.
- [66:34]
Chelsea Devantez
Zine? How dare you reference zines. No wonder I'm in love with you.
- [66:38]
Anna Sale
I'm like, oh, my God, it's so much fun to make every week. And I was like, it's cause it's a zine. That's why it's like my little digital mixtape. And the other thing I would I'm gonna plug is Chelsea, you said nice things about our conversation, but I really loved our conversation. And I think it's because your book was really crafted for the reader in mind. So I, like, was really into and then getting to dig in with you. I just think that, like, the way that you wrote about living with trauma, you know, the legalistic rules of publishing about women in our lives who we just like who we know made us and who we still have complicated feelings about some of the choices they made about female friendship, about dads. I just think it was such a full, rich, self compassionate conversation that everybody should listen to that conversation if they haven't.
- [67:30]
Chelsea Devantez
That was so cool to hear you say. Thank you so much for coming on everyone go find Anna's work. We'll link to everything in the show notes too.
- [67:37]
Anna Sale
Thanks Chelsea. Thanks for having me. And thanks for making sure I read this book. Everybody should listen to this song, Metal Fryer Cracker. That is the basis for this song. Don't tell anybody the secrets I told you or the name.
- [67:48]
Chelsea Devantez
We're gonna play that in the intro.
- [67:49]
Anna Sale
It's so.
- [67:53]
Chelsea Devantez
A huge thank you to our podcast producer Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro FM where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash T r a s h 2 audiobooks for the price of one at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.