Mayci Neeley’s Memoir Told You So (with Jo Feldman and Emily Walker)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Mayci Neeley’s Memoir "Told You So" (with Jo Feldman and Emily Walker)
Air Date: October 21, 2025
Guest Hosts: Jo Feldman & Emily Walker

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Episode Overview

This guest-hosted episode dives deep into the memoir "Told You So" by Mayci Neeley, a well-known figure from "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" and TikTok fame. Jo Feldman and Emily Walker—friends, writers, and podcast regulars—approach the memoir as both book club and cultural autopsy. Through a mix of humor, candor, and empathy, they explore Mayci’s experiences growing up Mormon, surviving trauma, and rising to influencer status, while providing commentary on the intersections of religion, womanhood, and modern social media celebrity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Mayci Neeley and Her Memoir

• Mayci’s Origin Story:
  • Rose to prominence via TikTok and "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives."
  • Memoir ghostwritten by Ali Glass Katz (credited and confirmed by Jo's sleuthing).
• Warning/Content Notes:
  • [02:13] Jo underscores the abundance of triggers in the book: “References of sexual, physical, emotional abuse and self harm. Always take care when listening.”

2. The Memoir’s "Bang" Opening

• Tragedy as Social Currency:
  • Mayci's boyfriend Eric dies in a car accident while texting her an apology for cheating, during her pregnancy with his child.
  • [07:09] Emily delivers classic deadpan: “Well, you gotta find the silver lining, you know what I mean? In all of it.”
  • The experience generates sudden Instagram followers—discussion ensues about trauma consumption and “suffer porn.”

3. Mormon Upbringing & Family Dynamics

• Coto de Caza Wealth & Bravo Easter Eggs:
  • Jo and Emily delight at Mayci’s Orange County roots, referencing "Real Housewives" as cultural context.
• Parental Control & Infantilization:
  • [17:20] Jo on Mayci's overbearing family: “You become an adult who constantly second guesses their decisions because you've never been able to make one on your own.”
• Sexual Education Void:
  • Mayci’s and Emily’s mutual lack of sex education; resulting fear and confusion over normal physiological responses.
  • [12:23] Emily: “Your virgin hood was not only your priority, but your family's priority.”

4. Early Relationships, Trauma, and Mormon Codes

• “Dick” the Abusive Ex:
  • Met at a Mormon singles dance; chronic sexual, emotional, and physical abuse (including rape and blackmail via nudes).
  • Entrapment through honor code violations at BYU means reporting him threatens her own future.
  • [25:01] Emily: “She just doesn't have the skills to, A, see the red flags and B, know that she's better than that situation.”
• Religious and Institutional Guilt:
  • Bishops serve mainly as instruments of shame, not support.
  • [22:02] Jo: “No religious leader in this book shows up in a way that...is feminist or supportive.”

5. Navigating BYU, Honor Codes, and Surveillance

• University as Surveillance State:
  • Reporting each other for code violations.
  • [28:48] Jo: “The idea that, like, you're under surveillance by your classmates is so scary.”
• Athletic and Academic Pressures:
  • BYU’s restrictive athletic environment, body policing, and the contrast with secular spaces.

6. Meeting Eric and the Teenage Pregnancy

• Romance with Eric:
  • “Hot tub hopping” and covert dating, while Eric simultaneously faces fallout from a pregnant ex.
• Unplanned Pregnancy and Lack of Resources:
  • Mayci's inability to safely obtain birth control, due to religious, parental, and institutional constraints.
  • [43:57] Jo: “She keeps, like, wishing she would miscarry or, like, working out really hard and hoping that it will happen.”
• Abortion Not Considered:
  • [44:12] Mayci (context): “This baby felt like a consequence of her actions...She says these days she feels differently.”

7. Family Reaction and Emotional Support Void

• Family's Response to Pregnancy:
  • Parents and siblings oscillate from shaming to logistical support, but give minimal emotional comfort.
  • [47:23] Jo: “She has so much family, she has so much ‘support’ and no emotional support. It’s so hard to watch.”

8. The Death of Eric

• Grief and Guilt:
  • Eric’s fatal car accident, discovered via Instagram; traumatic aftermath and questions of "what if."
  • [56:33] Emily: "It's really, really fucking dark."
• Support from Eric’s Family:
  • They perceive Mayci as his soulmate, granting her more validation than her own kin.

9. Early Motherhood, Return to BYU, and Building a New Life

• Teen Mom Challenges and Privileges:
  • Receiving family childcare, yet shamed as a "nepo baby" and denied peer friendship/support.
  • [66:54] Emily: “It’s a lose-lose...damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t.”
• Romantic Life Redux:
  • New love triangle with fellow athlete Jacob (initially dating her friend), under family scrutiny and intervention.
  • Recurring theme of parents’ overinvolvement in relationships—with unsettling overtones.
• Narrative of Healing:
  • Finally attends therapy (at big sister Lauren’s urging) for PTSD and self-blame, finding validation and growth.

10. Social Media Celebrity and “MomTok” Emergence

• From Trauma to Influence:
  • Starts a blog (with her father's encouragement to monetize), pivots to TikTok, becomes momfluencer.
  • Friendship and drama with fellow TikTok Mormon moms (notably Taylor Frankie Paul and Mikayla), light touch on swinging scandal.
• New Family and IVF:
  • Marries Jacob; they do IVF for a second child (reason glossed over).
  • [79:10] Jo (on IVF): “It’s interesting to, like, have this really exposing memoir and then be like, and we’re doing ivf, and I’m not saying why.”

11. Reflection on the Memoir’s Value and Final Thoughts

• Assessment of Mayci’s Vulnerability and Depth:
  • Both hosts agree: vulnerable, but lacking self-reflection and deeper processing.
• Entertaining? Elevating?
  • [83:59] Emily: “No.”
  • [84:51] Jo: “No. But here’s what I do know. I’m glad to have spent this time with you.”
• Overall Takeaways:
  • The memoir raises questions about cycles of shame, the pitfalls of religious upbringing, parental intervention, and the construction of internet narratives.
  • The hosts express a wish for more candor—especially juicy momfluencer drama—but appreciate the opportunity to dissect modern Mormon womanhood.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [08:24] Jo (on shame): “There’s no real reason to feel shame about any of my mistakes. The only shame is in hiding them, which I think is, like, a life lesson that I could definitely learn from.”
• [10:00] Jo (on family dynamics): “My dad, who’s bald. What a read. I’m married to a bald king. I’m offended.”
• [17:20] Jo (on being the youngest): “You become an adult who constantly second guesses their decisions because you’ve never been able to make one on your own.”
• [21:57] Emily (on bishops): “It is so upsetting... It’s a whole other thing to like go through your own guilt...then have to like, yeah, go to a person and talk about it.”
• [28:48] Jo (on BYU surveillance): “The idea that... you’re under surveillance by your classmates is so scary.”
• [37:05] Emily (on Mormon culture & perfectionism): “It’s all kind of about outward appearances, where you’re kind of performing Mormonism for the other Mormons around you, regardless of what’s happening behind the scenes.”
• [43:24] Mayci (via Jo): “She’s sure it’s a girl because she heard girls steal your beauty and she has bumps on her face.”
  Emily: “I hate that.”
• [56:33] Emily (grief after Eric’s death): “It’s really, really fucking dark.”
• [62:01] Jo (personal psychic story): “In that moment, I went over to my dryer and I opened up the dryer door and my rings fell out... Thank you, Froman.”
• [72:13] Mayci (via Jo): “My body finally feels legible.”
• [83:26] Emily (on memoir vulnerability): “She told us a lot, but I feel like I didn’t get a lot of reflection from her.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and Content Warning: 00:27–02:35
• Mayci’s Memoir and TikTok Fame: 02:35–06:18
• Dark Beginnings—Boyfriend’s Death: 06:18–08:12
• Mormon Family & Virginity Discourse: 10:00–14:21
• Abusive Relationship Unpacked: 17:41–28:19
• Honor Code, Surveillance, and Sex Ed Gaps: 28:19–31:23
• Pregnancy, Family Fallout, and Leaving BYU: 42:53–50:05
• Losing Eric – Grief & Social Media Fallout: 56:00–57:39
• Motherhood, Return to BYU, Parental Overreach: 66:02–68:27
• Emergence as Momfluencer & TikTok Dynamics: 78:16–81:27
• Book Assessment & Final Thoughts: 83:02–84:50

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Host Tone & Takeaways

The hosts blend comedic snark, critical analysis, and personal storytelling for an accessible, relatable recap. While they appreciate Mayci’s vulnerability, they continually critique the lack of self-reflection and the sanitized nature of the influencer’s narrative. The episode balances light-hearted Bravo references, genuine empathy for trauma survivors, and a clear-eyed view of the modern Mormon spectacle.

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For Listeners

This episode is an insightful and wide-ranging ride—from dark memoir content to podcast host banter, from dissecting Mormon cultural quirks to the pitfalls of influencer commodification. While you don’t get deep new revelations about Mormon TikTok, you get a candid, well-rounded discussion that combines book club feels with insightful commentary on shame, agency, and the perils—and privileges—of “going viral” with your tragedy.

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Memorable Closing Exchange:
[84:50] Emily: “No. But here’s what I do know. I’m glad to have spent this time with you.”
[86:04] Emily: “We are sealed together for eternity.”
[86:08] Jo: “Let’s wear matching underpants. Is that what they do?”
[86:11] Emily: “Yeah.”

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Podcast fans, if you like honest book chat with a Bravo twist, this one’s for you.

Transcript

[A]

The detective said missing kids usually come home.

[B]

What happens when they don't?

[A]

Based on a true story Police looking for John Gacy. We discovered bodies. By the looks of it, they're younger men.

[B]

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[A]

The system failed these families.

[B]

Devil in disguise.

[A]

John Wayne Gacy Streaming now only on Peacock. Do you know how many there are?

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Up to you to find out. The holidays have arrived at the Home.

[A]

Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot. Hi, it's me, your host, Chelsea Devontes. As you know, I have been away from the podcast directing my first feature film. However, we just wrapped and I am returning to the podcast very soon. So please enjoy these last couple of episodes that are hosted by amazing guest hosts like today's featuring two extremely funny friends talking about a book that I could not wait to read. So I'm so happy happy I get to listen to this episode myself. And if you still want some episodes from me only hosted by me, all of those went up on the Patreon as bonus episodes or on Apple subscriptions and you can always get bonus content there and I will be back on the podcast very soon. Welcome to Glamorous Trash, a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your guest host, Joe Feldman. You may know me from this podcast where I recently guest hosted and book clubbed Kendra Wilkinson's memoir with the enchanting novelist Caro Clare Burke, or Past Epps with Chelsea where we discussed memoirs by Kelly Bishop and Carney Wilson. I'm also a writer, writer's assistant, improviser and mom. My work can be seen most recently in the forthcoming season of Shrinking on Apple and also in the faces of my two daughters who now only speak to me in lyrics from K Pop Demon Hunters. I'm also one of Chelsea's oldest friends, so if you want to know where she got all those wide belts someone told her were flattering in the mid-20s. I'm your gal and today we are book clubbing. Told you so by Macy Neely, published in the current hell of October 2025. And I think this was ghostwritten by a woman named Ali Glass Katz as she is thanked in the credits for shaping the story. And then I went to her website and she is a ghostwriter now. You know Macy either from Secret lives of Mormon wives on hulu or her TikTok videos with her mom. Talk girlies that turned into Secret lives of Mormon wives on Hulu. This book has everything on your Mormon bingo card. Mentions of abandoned polygamous villages, repenting for drinking tea, and honestly, an overwhelming amount of college tennis statistics. And before we dive in, please note references of sexual, physical, emotional abuse and self harm. So always take care when listening. I also just think if any of those things are triggers for you, it's just a whole trigger warning for the entire book. Now let's dive in. The day my boyfriend dies, he texts me to say he's sorry.

[B]

He loves me.

[A]

He'll never forgive himself for hurting me while I'm pregnant with his baby. Eric's text ends with a typo, a.

[B]

Single letter J. I don't understand why.

[A]

He hasn't finished his thought until my mom takes me out to lunch that afternoon. While scrolling Instagram at our usual table, I see a picture of Eric on my timeline with the caption RIP, he's crashed his car while texting me that night. 300 people follow me on Instagram. My guest today is one of my best friends, Emily Walker. Emily is a writer, actor, can I say postpartum doula, and all around good time gal. Yeah, baby. You may know her from Chelsea's own memoir as the friend Rebecca, or you might recall hearing Emily on the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives recaps she did with Chelsea on this podcast earlier this year. Emily has appeared in Homeland Love and Curb your Enthusiasm. She also was a staff writer for the Netflix cartoon Chicago Party Ant for two seasons. Emily, welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Hi. I'm so upset you didn't introduce me as the woman who brought you your necessary items to your wedding like charcoal pills and essential oil diffuser.

[A]

Wait, I forgot that I made you do that now. Emily, I know a lot of people that listen to this podcast specifically that know you as Rebecca from Chelsea's memoir want to hear your side of the story. So I just. I'm gonna give you one chance right now to say your piece. Do you feel that Chelsea did me dirty and didn't mention me enough in the memoir?

[B]

The fact that you did not get a chapter is bullshit and hogwash. And I'm standing on my business saying it, and that's all I have.

[A]

We've said it. That's all she has to say, people, you know what? I got some nice mentions. Not a whole chapter, but I'm going to get. I'm going to get in there for this.

[B]

Squeak will. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think the next book that comes out, you'll be on the COVID with all the campaigning you've done.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks for noticing. All right, Emily. Told you. So, Macy Neely, tell me your overall vibes.

[B]

Overall vibes were rough.

[A]

Rough, Rough.

[B]

Yeah. I think she has this like, story, right? This like, very impactful, kind of like harrowing story. And she has taken that story and made a lot of money off of it. And so God bless.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I mean, that's how she got TikTok famous. Like, I went back and looked at like, before pre mom talk, like, why she was blowing up. And it was her doing these, like, set to like, very sad music, like my story and like all of that, like the stuff that 2020 Emily was like, eating up. Sitting alone in my house for hours.

[A]

Sometimes I hear like, TikTok music from like the beginning of TikTok, like the things in my house that just make sense that they were soundtrack to Covid TikTok. But that is, I guess, when she got famous. So, because you mentioned it, which is a great thing to mention, let's start at the beginning, which is where she begins her. Her memoir at the most, maybe traumatic part of her story. Arguable. Cause I think there's more trauma. She starts it like this. The day my boyfriend dies, he texts me to say, sorry, he loves me. He'll never forgive himself for hurting me while I'm pregnant with his baby. And then she finds out that her boyfriend Eric has died. And she finds out via Instagram posts of pictures with him with like, rip. This is how she finds out the father of her unborn child has died. And then what she says is, that night, 300 people follow me on Instagram.

[B]

Well, you gotta find the silver lining, you know what I mean? In all of it.

[A]

I'm also just blown away because, like, when you're creeping on people's trauma on the Internet, you're not. I'm like, are you following? I'm not actually hitting follow. I'm just checking periodically until I'm over the. The story.

[B]

Yeah, but I think, again, we have beautiful, full, vibrant lives. And I think there's people on the Internet who maybe don't and that need to, like, suffer porn their way through things by watching other people, perhaps.

[A]

I think you're probably right. Well, that might have been the beginning of her, like, as you said, her rise. Her meteoric social media rise. So in the opening chapter, Macy gives us a preview of what we are about to unpack. She's found out she's pregnant. She's gonna have to leave school, move home, give up her D1 scholarship to BYU. She plays Tenn. Her detailed past abuse with an ex who drugged and raped her. Her suicidal ideation. And yes, like we said, the father of her unborn child has just died from texting and driving. And the text in question was an apology to her for cheating. Oh, my God, it's so dark.

[B]

Who knew Mormons could be so dang dark during college?

[A]

I thought they were just Donny Osmond.

[B]

I thought they're up there just, like, shaking beds, pretending to have sex. But here we go.

[A]

So much more. So she maintains that she wants to share the story so that these things don't define her, which I actually find, like, very lovely. She says there's no real reason to feel shame about any of my mistakes. The only shame is in hiding them, which I think is, like, a life lesson that I could definitely learn from.

[B]

It's very devonte coded. Share your truth, you know, and it will lead the way.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But also, it is kind of funny for her to be like, it doesn't define me when it's truly what she leads with on, like, all platforms.

[A]

Is it my. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Maybe she's saying the shame doesn't define her. She wants to, like, move on from the shame. Emily, significant to you and I, there are a few times in this memoir where it feels like the Bravo fans are getting little kisses from Macy Neely. And the first one is that she is from Cotto de Casa.

[B]

Well, there's many things about the Cotto de Casa of it all, which I love. Like, people who come from wealthy backgrounds are like, we weren't that rich. And it's always like, okay, okay, you were. And like, we think that's cool. Like, tell me about what that's like.

[A]

Yeah, tell us. And she will. And she absolutely will. So Cota de Caza is like a gated community in Orange county in California. It's where Real Housewives of oc, the original Housewives franchise, was born. It's the Nazareth of Bravo.

[B]

Truly. Yeah.

[A]

I need to talk about Macy's parents. And they will come up many times throughout this memoir because they're either so present because their family dynamics are odd to me, or because this is, like, the time in her life where her family is like, hyper involved in her life. She describes her parents as my mom. Hair blown out, makeup perfect. My dad, who's bald. What a read. I'm married to a bald king. I'm offended.

[B]

We love a bald king.

[A]

We love a bald king. Are you saying your dad's hot?

[B]

Her dad does do some, like, kind of shitty stuff down later in the book, so I'm. I'm kind of okay with the shade.

[A]

My feeling on her dad goes, like, from, like, hate him to love him, to hate him to love him throughout my feelings on her mom. Also tricky. Okay, so they're Mormon. There's not a ton of Mormons in Orange county, so she feels like she knows, like, every Mormon. She's the baby of her family. By the time she's a teenager, all of her siblings have already moved out, so she feels it's, like, her responsibility to involve her mom in her social life. Again, hard to relate. I felt like I wanted to be with my parents in high school, but I didn't feel that I needed them clued in on the drama.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Certainly not on crushes. Certainly not on kissing.

[B]

No. Not that there was kissing happening. But let's be honest.

[A]

You know what? If there was kissing, maybe I would have told.

[B]

I think you would have went straight to Marcy and been like, I did it.

[A]

You're right. I probably would have. Saving it for my memoir. Okay, so Macy goes to a mormon dance. She's 15, and she has her first kiss with a guy named Mark, who is her friend Cole's cousin. Later, Mark kisses someone else, and she decides she wants to make him jealous, even though she actually likes Cole, who is a bad boy, and she knows he's a bad boy because his mission is postponed. I'm learning a lot about Mormon culture through this. She's like, that is the reading between the lines. If he hasn't gone on his mission, he did drugs or had sex or drink tea or something.

[B]

Same. I did not know that mission represented, like, good Mormon guy.

[A]

It contextualizes Salt Lake City and Lisa Barlow's son going on his mission, too.

[B]

Yes. And why everyone was so invested about where he's going or if he's doing it. Like, who cares?

[A]

Who cares? I didn't get it.

[B]

It is, like, defining thing of, like, will you do it? Will you not? And if you choose not to, it's kind of this scarlet letter of like, oh, you're not a good Mormon, or, this is not a guy you want to be around.

[A]

She even says, like, her sister McCall won't marry a guy who hasn't completed a mission. That's like a scarlet letter. So Macy's growing up in her Mormon family. She's like getting zero information about biology to the point that once she is making out with Cole and they're dry humping as one is want to do in high school and. And she goes to the bathroom and finds her underwear is wet. And she's so freaked out because she has no idea like, what that could be.

[B]

I appreciated this because I also had that experience as someone whose parents said, you're not allowed to go to sex ed because we feel like it's too much information for your young brain. We don't feel like it's appropriate. So I had to sit in a classroom by myself when everyone else did sex ed.

[A]

Emily, that's so sad.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I sort of had the flip side experience where when I was a sophomore, we hired a stripper to come do lap dances in someone's basement. When everyone's parents were found out, everyone got in trouble. But my mom said, I know you're just curious about the male body.

[B]

Oh my God, Marcy. God bless. No, I did not. I had very similar experiences to Macy of like, we did not talk about sex. Your virgin hood was something that was like not only your priority, but your family's priority. It was something that everyone was like, no, this is. We're all on board with the fact that you will be a virgin till you're married. And like both, like, it was very much a policing of bodies and very.

[A]

Like, very much also the time. Like, we were invested in every pop star's virginity. Like, we felt owed that information and betrayed when it was not assured to us for sure.

[B]

Yes, it definitely was of the time as well. But it's still something that's. I grew up Christian, so it's still something that's very steeped in terms of like purity rings. And I think even now with the manosphere and everything that's happening with MAGA and far right Republicans, that's being reinforced there as well for sure.

[A]

And she'll talk about it later. But I think it's important to say that, like, she feels the lack of education was so harmful to her in terms of biology, sex ed. She didn't understand like anything going on pregnancy, abstinence wise. She also didn't know like the harms of drinking and driving. She just knew that you're not supposed to do it. No one had said like, what the risks were. Risks were of drinking a lot or what the Risks were of drinking and driving. So she just did all of these things because she figured once she had broken the seal, like she'd already done the sin, so why not just go hard?

[B]

For sure. That resonated with me as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Okay. I reached a moment in life where I just needed some essentials in my wardrobe. It is fall, the weather is changing and I just needed the basics. And the best, highest quality basics are at Quince. I went there to get some wide leg pants. I also got this like super cute utility shirt for my husband. And then I got a fresh new pair of slippers. I love just a hot, fresh pair of slippers for fall. I wear slippers all the time, so I constantly need new pairs. And I love the ones from Quince. Quince has kind of become this like one stop shop for me because you can get so many pieces there. Because Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories and they cut out the middlemen to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just feels smart. Stylish, effortless, easy, easy peasy, but also super chic. Some would say glamorous. Hand trash. Find your fall staples at quinte. Go to quince.com glamorous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com glamorous to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com glamorous when did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages. So now no one forgets. Mom, 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with endtoend encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. So Macy's family is really big into tennis and every daughter is playing tennis. She gets recruited for college. She can go anywhere she wants. She's deciding back and forth between UCLA and byu. Her oldest sister Lauren is the new head coach at BYU. Her sister McCall plays for UCLA. But Macy said on BYU because she knows she wants to marry a Mormon guy and be a stay at home mom. And then Lauren commits her to BYU without her consent, which she Sort of laughs off and I find a little bit scary.

[B]

I underlined that as well, where I was like, that's bananas. This is like the first big decision you make, like, as an adult, right? Is like, where you go to school. Like, this is the first time where you're like, your parents are like, this is on you. Unless it's like, you know, there's legacy and stuff, but for the most part, it's like, what do you want to major in? So the fact that her sister was like, I signed you up and I got you in anyway because I know it's good for you, was, like, bananas to me. And that she was kind of like, ha, ha, classic Lauren. And you're like, whoa.

[A]

That seems to be a theme where, like, her family is just, like, over involved in telling her what to do. As the baby of the family, for me, I sort of relate to the idea of, like, everyone just tells you because they know better than you. I can tell you what happens is that you become an adult who constantly second guesses their decisions because you've never been able to make one on your own.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Think about that.

[B]

I never got that from you, Jo. Really, personally, you always seem like you are very steadfast in your choices to me.

[A]

So my girl Macy goes to check out BYU and like, I don't know, do some administrative work. And she goes to a party. This is before she's even enrolled. She goes with her friend Megan, and a creepy older guy grabs her by the hips on the dance floor. She sort of shimmies away. And later he traps her in an elevator. He assaults her. She freezes. And then her friend finds her before the doors close and save her. The friend doesn't exactly see what happens, and Macy doesn't tell anyone what happens. And she keeps thinking about it, but she never processes it and she never talks about it. Which leads us into her meeting her abuser, who we will spend a lot of time with throughout this memoir. She calls him Dick. And the funniest part of this not funny story is that she does meet him at a Mormon singles dance at Dave and Buster's, the singles dances also.

[B]

So, like, the culture around that was very interesting to me of, like. And I knew that about Mormonism, that they're like, you go to college to, like, find your husband or find your wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that there's these, like, organized events around dating and being single and meeting people and Which I do think is kind of cool. Like, newsflash, I didn't finish college. Okay. I'm a dropout. But something like that actually, I feel like, is, like, such a cool and fun idea to, like, have as a part of your university experience. Because I feel like you only end up, like, being around the people you're, like, in a major with. Which is me was the theater major.

[A]

So it's just you and a bunch of gay boys.

[B]

Me and a bunch of gay guys. I gotta kiss all these gay guys.

[A]

You had the privilege of kissing all those gay men.

[B]

Good for you. I did. You know what? I helped them on their path of figuring out if they're actually gay or not. And they kiss me, and they're, like, still gay. And I'm like, they're not happy. Happy to be of service.

[A]

I love this dig. She describes Dick's voice as really high and giving her the ick. And I just love that that's in print. And this guy's gonna read heinous shit about himself left and right. But I know the thing that's gonna really stick in his craw, if that's the correct adage, is that he has too high of a voice and it's gross. So they start dating. He already goes to byu, so they start a little bit long distance. And on a trip back home, he thinks he can beat her at tennis. I cannot stand when men do this, okay? I was on JDate, the Jewish dating site, for, like, two months. After a breakup, my mom bought me a Rosuchona deal so that I could get on J date and meet a nice Jewish man. And a man said, I see you're a comedian. Tell me who your favorite comedian is, and I'll tell you if I think you're funny. And you know what? I married that man. Just kidding.

[B]

And I'm gonna punch Andy next time I see him for doing that shit.

[A]

Don't worry. We met in a much more embarrassing way. But, like, the idea that men think this. I mean, a whole movement has been created of men dressing down women and thinking, that's flirting. It made me so angry.

[B]

But, see, I don't think they think it's flirting. I think most men hate women. I had the same experience on a date where I think I had just done a cruise ship or something with Second City and was like, I worked at Second City. And he's like, you do? How did you do it? I've been trying forever. And I'm like. And then I immediately went to the bathroom and texted Chelsea and said, call me in 10 minutes and say you need me to come home immediately. And she did God bless.

[A]

That's friendship. Now, speaking of Chelsea, Macy does go to visit Dick for Valentine's Day. And she wears a peplum top. Leaving that there. He tells her he loves her. She doesn't feel it, but she says it back. She says they break up and get back together a lot. But he is increasingly jealous and controlling of her. He asks her for nudes, he's sexually assaulting her. He is touching her body without consent. And every time they pass, like what she feels is a physical sexual milestone without her permission, she feels like, well, she's already done the bad thing, so she'll just keep doing it. It's easier for her to just let it happen than it is for her to speak up because she's, I think, scared of him. And she starts feeling guilty. So she goes to her bishop and she cries about it. And the bishop tells her that it's good she's crying. Cause that means she feels guilty, can fuck right off. Yeah.

[B]

Is this the same bishop who shows up throughout the book a couple times where she meets with him?

[A]

This is the one that has to give her her ecclesiastic recommendation. And then I think she goes back to him later. Okay, it might be the same bishop, it might not. But either way, no religious leader in this book shows up in a way that I would say is feminist or supportive.

[B]

No, truly, this guy seems like such a douche and seems to like hold power over making 18 year olds feel guilty for being 18 year olds essentially. It is so upsetting. It's a whole other thing to like go through your own guilt as you like figure out like the world as a young person in terms of like alcohol consumption or drug consumption or your. Your sexual lifestyle or whatever. Like there's already so much shame kind of built in with that just with yourself to then have to like, yeah, go to a person and talk about.

[A]

It and then get a man, an older man.

[B]

Nightmare. It's a nightmare situation.

[A]

Nightmare, Nightmare. It sounds horrible. And it also just shows that like this religious guilt is like ingrained in her and she does care about her religion and she says she's like a questioning person. So she's always sort of like questioning the rules. Like she's not sure why they exist, but she's breaking them. But she's feeling bad about it. And it continues with Dick. Where they go to Lake Havasu. Another Dringo just for housewives.

[B]

Another nod to our girls.

[A]

Another nod to our, our gals. They drink with his non Mormon aunt and uncle she sees come for the first time she's totally freaked out and scared.

[B]

Me too. Girl, come is crazy, girl.

[A]

I gotta tell you, I don't like that stuff.

[B]

I don't know what that stuff is, but I don't like it.

[A]

No, I don't like that stuff. Her sister McCall reads her texts. And so she sees these, like, texts between her and Dick and tells their dad, which is, I'm McCall. That's me. I'm always telling her dad tries to get her to break up with Dick she's not gonna do it, and she says she will, but then she doesn't do it because she's scared of him. Because while all of this is going, Dick is convincing her to smoke weed, to drink. He's taking pictures of her and soliciting her for nudes. So what he's actually doing is he is collecting evidence that he can use against her if she wants to break up with him to show BYU that she's broken the honor code. It's entrapment. She can't tell anyone that she is scared of him because if she says anything has happened, she is also admitting to her own breaking of the honor code, losing her D1 status, getting kicked out of school, all for breaking the honor code. And he gets mad about her for the littlest things. He gets mad at her for not texting back. And she's like, I'm just probably at Swig, my favorite soda shop with my friends.

[B]

I'm just at Swig, getting a caramel doctor Pepper cream topper.

[A]

That's all they're doing.

[B]

Yeah, it was really upsetting. And also, it's just like we were talking about before. She clearly has not been able to, like, have authority or autonomy over herself in any way. And so she's just kind of reenacting who she was in her childhood home with this, where it's just kind of like, well, go ahead. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where I just think she just doesn't have the skills to, like, A, see the red flags and B, like, know that she's, like, better than that situation. And I think she also was, like, drinking and doing all these things. And like we said, like, shame and guilt are just such strong emotions that, yes, she probably felt like she deserved these things. Or she's like, well, I am living this sinful lifestyle.

[A]

And so she feels she deserves it.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Like, well, it's your fault or you put yourself in that situation. And you know that kind of circular argument about women being hurt and being in violent situations.

[A]

She says numerous Times throughout the memoir that she feels embarrassed about the situation with her and Dick and which is like the saddest part of it for me. She's, I think, angry at herself for letting something happen. Like, for sure. It like breaks my heart. She details a lot of different situations where there is physical and sexual abuse that we don't have to go into here. But like, she takes photographic evidence. He deletes it from her phone one night. She says, he doesn't take my virginity, but he does things that scar me and leave me feeling ashamed to this day. Things I still haven't told my husband or therapist about. Things that shouldn't happen to anybody. He threatens suicide when she tries to break up with him. This is like an 18 year old girl I know.

[B]

This is literally like, like a Lifetime movie come to life. It feels like written like, it feels like you think of the most like toxic boyfriend and it's like, this is what they're gonna do. Like, it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. It's truly like textbook, like manipulation, all of that. It's true. It's insane.

[A]

And amidst all of this, she's the number one on her tennis team. D1 Tennis. Her sister is the head coach and she's trying to show up as an athlete. She talks also a lot about the BYU honor code. Obviously has modesty, regulation. So, like, the uniform is very different at BYU than she's used to playing in. She's not allowed to wear spandex in the weight room because it could, quote, distract the men that are working out. Love that.

[B]

She talks about her roommate at BYU where she's like, she was weird and she had a bunch of stuffed animals on her bed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She's. She's also like, the people at BYU were sort of childlike. Like they would walk around singing Disney songs. What a read.

[B]

I'm like, damn, drag these Utah Mormons, girl. So she's like, my roommate was kind of a wimpy loser, so I'm not going to go hang out with the kids who party. Probably because it felt like I wasn't in a fucking preschool most of the time.

[A]

Yeah. If honestly any of her experimenting was the fault of her roommate who brought too many stuffed animals to school. Scared the shit out of her. She was like, that seems bad. I don't want to do that.

[B]

She's like, that seems not fun at all.

[A]

Not for me. So back into it with her horrible, horrible boyfriend. Ultimately, he assaults her. He takes her virginity. She has no recollection of it because he's drugged. And then to get some ownership back of it, she tells him she loves him and lets them keep having sex afterwards, which is just another reflection on, like, how she's trying to feel autonomous in a situation that is horrifically nightmarish. She says the only place she feels safe is traveling for tennis or the student athletic building because he's not allowed into the student athletic building.

[B]

Crazy. She says BYU doesn't have an amnesty policy. I know that if I report Dick for abusing me, I'll get in trouble, too, because I've been drinking. So it's literally part of the policy there.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lose, lose.

[B]

It, like, actively is stopping people from reporting crimes potentially happening to them because of fear that they'll also get in trouble, which is just the most, especially on colleges where this happens at an alarming number. Like, it's bananas to me.

[A]

She says this later that the BYU culture rewards watching and reporting on your fellow students in a way that makes her feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. And sometimes the shame she feels about having sex or messing around morphs into paranoia, and she's not sure if she's more worried about getting caught or just the feeling of guilt for what she's done. The idea that, like, you're under surveillance by your classmates is so scary.

[B]

Your friend.

[A]

Your friends. Yeah, yeah. But your friend could get mad at you for something stupid because you're 18 and people get mad at each other for dumb shit instead of talking about it and could get you kicked out of college. The stakes are so high.

[B]

The stakes are crazy high. She has so much stress on her. It's. It's. It's absolutely crazy.

[A]

It's too much. And this is coming out for her also in, like, anger. On the tennis court, she's, like, swearing, and she's making a scene. She's hurting herself. She's, like, hitting herself at the racket. Her sister's like, what's going on with you? And she just can't disclose any of it because she's too scared. So she is in the student athlete building her safe space one day when she meets Eric. Eric is a baseball player at byu. She describes him as goofy and fun, but she doesn't really think much about him because she is so under control by Dick that she's not allowed to talk to other guys. So she's sort of like a fleeting passing moment. And then suddenly, out of nowhere, Dick drops out of school to go home and deal with medical issues that, to me, sound like ibs.

[B]

Undisclosed medical Issues.

[A]

But it's like in an instant, he's gone. I was like, oh. Like, I felt like I could breathe reading that. I was like, oh, he's gone. He's just gone.

[B]

Yes, it did feel like a nice moment, but also she doesn't, like, get a break from it really. She's still heavily drinking. She's still, like, kind of numbing. What happened to her? Kind of pushing that down. Like she's not dealing with it in any way, shape or form either.

[A]

Yeah, she's like, definitely not processing and a little scared because it's like, is he gone? Could he really be gone? But then in other ways, she starts to put her college life back together. She starts playing better. She starts hanging out with her sister and her husband and their kid more. They do Sunday night dinners where they always make grilled chicken and salad.

[B]

I was like, get a life. This is your big Sunday dinner.

[A]

I know. Put a carb.

[B]

Yeah. Can we throw?

[A]

Sunday dinner has no bread.

[B]

Throw a twice baked potato on the plate or something. My goodness.

[A]

You know, she's doing better. She's going out. She's going to swig with her friends. She's having a ball. And then two months later, she starts hanging out with that guy Eric again and they start hot tub hopping around Provo.

[B]

My dream.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios New film Springsteen Deliver Me from Nowhere. Starring Gordon, Golden Globe winner Jeremy Allen White and Academy award nominee Jeremy Strahm. Scott Cooper, the director of the Academy award winning movie Crazy Heart, brings you the story of the most pivotal chapter.

[B]

In the life of an icon.

[A]

Springsteen, Deliver Me from Nowhere Only in theaters October 24th. Get your tickets now. Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours, all began as nothing. Just a blank page with a blinking.

[B]

Cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas. Start on Mac.

[A]

Find out more on apple.com Mac okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. What did you do for fun in college again?

[B]

Like making out with gay guys, doing improv, skipping class and sleeping.

[A]

I smoked a lot of pot. I watched Law and Order, svu. I rode my bike to Taco Bell and I didn't get. I didn't get in one hot tub, that's for sure. She's having a ball. She's having a ball with him. She keeps saying he's annoying, but, like, he's also really fun and relatable. He's a baseball player. That's why they were allowed to meet in the student athletic building. She goes to his baseball game. He's like a very open book to her. He brings her in with his family. Her, like, she gets along with his family, but nothing's happened. And then one night they're hanging out at his house and his little brother's like, come on, let's go on a walk to an old haunted house that was abandoned after housing a polygamous cult. And they have a first kiss in the car afterwards.

[B]

Nothing gets me going more than an abandoned polygamous cult house.

[A]

All these wives, all the braids that happened here.

[B]

So many braids, so many maxi dresses floating around in there.

[A]

Oh, yeah, baby. So they have this like little casual dating honeymoonish period. He's into partying. So they're drinking, they're hiding their alcohol and their swig cups. Classic stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one day he calls her. She wakes up, she has five missed calls from him. And he has bad news. His ex might be pregnant. And she's like, I don't really sweat it. Cause because we're not in a relationship and I don't want to be a stepmom.

[B]

Woof, woof, woof. That's really wild to me. I feel like if I was dating someone and they were like, oh, by the way, I might have a kid at that age, at 19, I'd be like, bye. Like, yeah.

[A]

I'd be like, I can't handle any of that. I can't handle any of that.

[B]

I would evaporate immediately.

[A]

See ya. You would disappear. Yeah, yeah. I would cry. I would be like, I don't want to deal with any of this. She does say, like, they're apart. It's like a break from school. And she does hook up with other people. She does mention that she can only hook up when she's blackout drunk, which is again, trauma.

[B]

She probably was dealing with some depression, anxiety, you know, alcoholism, all of that kind of whirlwind of fun, you know.

[A]

Speaking of like the depression, she says she would go for these long walks in Provo in sketchy parts of town, and she said she almost wanted something bad to happen because she felt like she would have deserved it and no one would care. Like, she says these such dark things about herself and her self worth during this time.

[B]

It's like, yes, really dark.

[A]

And it's like happening at the same time that she's like, and we're dating this person and this is happening. And then I'm also Wanting and I'm hating my. Like, it. It does capture how much you can hold all of these things at one time.

[B]

For sure. Yes. I appreciate her like, vulnerability about that. But yeah, it did seem like she was kind of like still living that 19 year old life of like, I'm cute, I'm talking to boys and I'm having fun and I'm in college and then like such a drastic shift to like somebody who's dealing with really, really heavy stuff.

[A]

Her inner world. Yeah, she has this like really dark and difficult inner life that no one knows about. And balancing both at the same time seems like the guilt and the shame feels so impossible. And she goes back to school, she's starts really dating Eric and she says she goes back to Utah and she's excited to see him. Him, even though she's quote, just taken off her eyelash extensions. Relate. She's like, he doesn't even care. He wants to hang out with her anyway. I'm like, God, if I even like washed my face in college before seeing a guy, that would have been effort. Oh yeah.

[B]

If I was freshly showered, then I was feeling good. Where you're like, wow, your hair looks nice. And I'm like, thanks, it's washed.

[A]

They really cared about their appearance. She does say her mom is like a always put together, lipstick on type of lady.

[B]

And I think that goes into like the whole Mormon culture of the perfectionism that it's all kind of about outward appearances, where you're kind of performing Mormonism for the other Mormons around you, regardless of like what's happening behind the scenes. I'm not drinking coffee and I'm not drinking and I'm not doing this. And look how perfect and put together my family is. And that's why they do so well. As Chelsea said many times on the podcast when we've talked about the Mormon wives and the salt lake of it all, they are great reality TV because. Because it's built into their culture to be like, we're ambassadors of Mormonism. That's what you see. That's the shield. But then all the bullshit is still happening in the background, you know? Yeah, it's great.

[A]

Yeah, it's really good for me. It's great for me. It's bad for everyone else experiencing it. Sorry. Now Macy says the longer she's back and hanging out with Eric, she really does feel crazy about him. But she can't tell her family because he's about to have a baby, that girlfriend was actually pregnant. And because he's about to Have a baby. He has been kicked out of BYU for breaking the honor code, so he's had to move, like, back home. And I think he's in a community college. And they start dating, I guess semi long distance, 20 minutes away type of thing. But while this is happening, she meets this guy named Liam, and she does tell her family about Liam, and she says, that's my future husband, and tells them how hot he is. A thing I also have never done with my family. No, it's very strange. She says numerous times that she doesn't want to physically cheat, but she likes Liam. Now, what's something Chelsea devontez always says about emotional affairs that is just the same or even worse, I think anytime. Like, we. We had a friend that was like, I'm having an emotional affair. Chelsea was like, they're lying. They're having sex. She can sniff out those lies a mile away.

[B]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[A]

So she's, like, kind of entertaining this emotional affair with this guy Liam, who also says he thinks he can beat her at tennis.

[B]

What is wrong with these men? Get a lot.

[A]

Yeah. Liam. She was like, we did play tennis, and it was really fun. But then she went to Eric's baseball game, and it made her feel guilty. So things with Eric are sort of tenuous. He's sort of, like, ghosting her, and she'll go MIA For a few hours or a few days, and so that. That sort of drives her to Liam. She hangs out with Liam one night. He tries to kiss her, but she gives the cheek, and. And then she wakes up, and Eric has apologized, and this really didn't sit well with me. They go to Taco Bell, and then they have sex.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's the reverse order of things in my book. And I know in your playbook as well.

[A]

Absolutely hard to picture.

[B]

Once Taco Bell's entered my body, nothing else is entering it for 48 hours.

[A]

That's all I want. Penetrating my body is a chalupa.

[B]

Right. Anything else? After the bean burritos penetrated me enough, babe. Like.

[A]

Yeah, that. Really, honestly, that grossed me out. But it also just sort of reminded me of being in my twenties when you're invincible and you can just do whatever you want. Your body doesn't care. So she and Eric are having sex. She says they're trying to be careful. Obviously, she knows he just got another girl pregnant, but. But she can't get birth control because the only place to do it would be through BYU athletics, through their health clinic, and then they would know she's having sex. So she would be kicked out of school and kicked off the team for breaking the honor code. She can't do it in California because she's on her parents health insurance. And then her parents would know that she's going to a gynecologist, which would also be bad. And then of course Planned Parenthood closes at 4 and that's when tennis practices.

[B]

So couldn't possibly find my way over there.

[A]

It was like, you didn't need to say that.

[B]

And no, no condoms I guess also were just like not available.

[A]

Wait, why weren't they buying condoms?

[B]

Well, I think we know the real reason. We've all experienced those men. I mean my favorite story is one of the Chelsea's which is like a guy literally crying, being like, it hurts to put a condom on. It hurts me. I'm like, you guys will literally do anything to get out of wearing a condom. Like grow the fuck up. But I understand too in the moment, you truly don't think those things matter happen to you when you're young because you've not experienced it. And because you haven't been around it, you truly just think that you're like bulletproof.

[A]

See, I was the opposite where I was sure that I would get an STD from anything. So I was on birth control and using condoms. And then when it came time for me to like try to get pregnant, I was like, oh, it's actually like really hard. Like actually was so scared and so careful for no reason.

[B]

No, I was the opposite where I was like, nothing bad can ever happen to me. Here comes chlamydia.

[A]

Anyway, I just like pictured chlamydia being like the, the Kool Aid man just storming through.

[B]

Hey, Emily.

[A]

Okay, so Eric's parents, who seem very lovely, actually confront them about having sex and drinking. And she says it's so respectful and lands, but also only lasts for two days.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I don't understand with like parents like that conversation. Like that is such a fruitless conversation to have of like now you know you can't be having sex days. They've already done the fun stuff. They're doing the fun stuff. They're not going to stop doing the fun stuff.

[A]

Unless why wouldn't the parents say like, you know, you're about to become a father. So to avoid this happening again, we know you're having sex. Why aren't you practicing safe sex? Can we get you birth control? Can we get you condoms?

[B]

Exactly. Macy, let's take you to get this. You don't have to talk to anybody. BYU don't have. Talk to your parents. I want to do this for you. Something. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's when the religious stuff overrides when they're like. But it's not about that. It's about the. She shouldn't be doing it. The abstinence is more important than the education.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is so depressing. Now at this point, Eric's ex is eight months pregnant, but she says they don't talk about it. And when she's reflecting on it, she feels, it seems pretty guilty that she never thought about, like, what he was going through or what it was like.

[B]

For him, which I kind of related to, honestly.

[A]

I mean, as a 19 year old. Yeah. I never thought about what anyone was going through.

[B]

Yeah. No. I did not, like, figure out the whole, like, empathy part of life until like my late twenties. Honestly.

[A]

One of my best friend's parents got divorced when we were 18 and it was like a sad, sad breakup. Sad divorce. I never asked her about it. I probably was like, oh, sorry, that's happening. She was probably like, that's okay. And we didn't talk about it until like 10 years later when I was like, what exactly happened? Like, are you okay? It's. Hindsight is 20 20.

[B]

Hindsight is very much 20 20. No. I was the type of person who, like, they don't want anybody to bother them. Do, do, do. I don't have.

[A]

You don't want anyone to bother you. So Macy's family comes to visit. They have a family wedding. And at the wedding she's not feeling well and she experiences what she thinks is a miscarriage, but actually later finds out, no, she's pregnant. She is 19 years old. She sobs in the shower. She prays for the first time in a year. Please help me. Please help me. Please help me. Me. She's sure it's a girl because she heard girls steal your beauty and she has bumps on her face.

[B]

I hate that.

[A]

Yeah. That's a. So many people said that to me when I was pregnant with my girlies. And honestly, I feel like I'm just getting hotter and hotter from knowing them.

[B]

No. Yeah. The girls are only making you hotter and hotter, in my opinion. She.

[A]

It's like, we also, we know this is inevitable. We know she's getting pregnant. This story literally starts with her being pregnant, but. But I'm still just, like, so bummed for her.

[B]

It's a real bummer. And also, if you remember, she's 19.

[A]

She's 19 also.

[B]

She. I can't Remember at what point? But she literally talks about, like, the fact that, like, her getting an abortion didn't even, like, cross her mind.

[A]

Yep. So she keeps, like, wishing she would miscarry or, like, working out really hard and hoping that it will happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's also. She's hiding it at tennis. She says her sister asks someone named Demi. And I'm not sure if it's the same one from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives or if it's just another Demi.

[B]

In my mind, it's the same Demi.

[A]

Okay. That's what I sort of figured. And then I tried to find out if they went to college together online. Couldn't find that information. Neither of them are worthy of a Wikipedia. Everyone covers for her. She has more depressive thoughts. And like you said, that she says she doesn't even think about abortion. She goes to a pregnancy resource center that's next to a Planned Parenthood, but she thinks Planned Parenthood is just for abortions. She doesn't know they do other health care, so she doesn't even think about going there. And she said growing up she always thought women should be able to get abortions for rape and incentives, incest. But this baby felt like a consequence of her actions. She says these days she feels differently. Acknowledges that she had financial privilege, she had family support, and she's now a feminist. She cites the lack of resources for women. She should have learned basic sex ed. She should have been able to get birth control easily. She says not learning these basic life skills set her up for failure, even as we said, in the context of drinking and driving. And at this pregnancy resource center, she gets an ultrasound and she, she makes peace with the fact that she's pregnant.

[B]

Also, a lot of those pregnancy resource centers, it's all geared around you keeping your child. So they're going to do everything that's going to tug at your heartstrings or potentially like, sway you one way or another. Where they're going to be like, they're going to show you an ultrasound. They're going to tell you how far along it is. They're going to tell you everything that your baby can feel and all of that. And it's all designed around you, keeping that life inside of you. And I'll just say, like, I feel like this is such a story with a lot of women. Like, a lot of women are like, yeah, I had a kid young and we figured out and blah, blah, and I'm happy for all of these women too. But I do think that, like, it's Just like, yes, child. Having a child is wonderful. But it, again, like, I'm glad she brought up the fact that she had all of these resources because there's so many people who have this exact same experience who don't have those resources and have a really hard time and deal with depression, deal with not being able to find work, deal with dropping, having to drop out of school. Like, it's a lot for a young person to take on.

[A]

It ends your life in a lot of ways. Yeah, parenting does. It ends your forward momentum in your progression. No matter what, no matter what kind of blessing your child is, things come to a halt. Things change, relationships shift. There is no way around it. Even with all of her privilege, she still has an extremely hard time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I was really glad she said all of that. She's scared to tell her family that she's pregnant because her family knows about Eric and they know that he has another ex girlfriend with a baby on the way, or at this point, the baby is born. But it sounded like they were doing paternity tests. They never really follow up on what happens with that baby.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But either way, her parents are terrified of him. Like, they're so scared. Him.

[B]

Yeah. They're treating him like he is Jeffrey Dahmer or something.

[A]

Like, yeah, it is really weird. So she ultimately decides she needs to tell Lauren. Lauren is her tennis coach and her big sister. She tells Lauren, and Lauren is immediately like, you have to tell dad. I was like, lauren is a nightmare before Lauren even hugs her. Lauren's like, call dad right now. She calls her dad. Her dad's like, you have to call mom. She calls her mom. Her mom calls her a slut. And then Lauren cries, hugs her, and tells her that being a mom is really hard.

[B]

Hard.

[A]

She has so much family. She has so much quote, unquote support and no emotional support. It's so hard to watch.

[B]

Yes. And I think that's a really good distinction, Joe, because, yeah, even, like, now, like, I'm going through this process to become a foster parent with my husband, and they speak a lot about that in terms of just, like, training.

[A]

Hold for applause. Yay.

[B]

Give me my flower speech.

[A]

My girl's gonna be a mom.

[B]

Also, I'm 39, and I'm still, like, motherhood, and I have 20 years on this bitch. But they speak a lot about in the process of, like, loss you've had in your life or hard times you've had in your life. And, like, did you have support and did you have emotional support? And I think I never even, like, thought of it in those terms of, like, just because you have people there, that's great and that's helpful. But like, if they're not emotionally supporting you or helping you, like, like with the mental part of all of this, then, like, is that even support in some ways?

[A]

Right. They might even be harming you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's an interesting thing because I feel like I view this part of her story as like a path diverging and like, what would have happened had like a sliding doors. Because at this point, Eric is happy that she's pregnant. His family is offering for her to move in with them. They will take care of her, they will take care of the baby. They will, like, make it work. To me, his family is showing emotional support and her family is saying, you absolutely have to move home. You're bad girl, bad girl. Come home now. Don't talk to the boy that got you pregnant. He's evil. And she feels because she's the baby of her family, she feels beholden to them. So she goes home and her sister helps her figure out basically how to enroll from BYU before disclosing that she's pregnant. So she has broken the honor code and she can come back after having the baby, which later, like, she gets some flack for. She even tells the athletic director who tells her that a baby is never a mistake. I mean, the religious stuff is like, yeah, like, drop out of College. You're a D1 athlete. And while he's begging her to stay. And her family is mad that, like, she has a support, like, it's like, this is for what it is. It's a best case scenario. She has a boyfriend. His family is supportive. They want to help. Like, and she, even when she says goodbye to him, she has to sneak away to say goodbye to him. And they don't know it's the last time that they'll ever see each other. Which just makes me like, it's just so sad.

[B]

It's so heartbreaking. It feels like such a fucking, like, upside down thing to be like, you're an adult now. You have a child in your body. But also, yeah, we're going to treat you like you're a child as well. You're not making choices. We're making choices for you. We're taking over the situation.

[A]

It's a lot of like, yeah, mixed signals, infantilizing her.

[B]

Yes. And, and this is very common. Like, they've talked about it on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I listen to Macy on a podcast with two Cyruses I don't know, a mom and another Cyrus non Mileys, not Miley's, who clearly had never read the book, never watched Secret Lives and Mormon Wives and did not know who Macy was until she stepped foot in her studio. But she talked a little bit about this, how like it was very much of the culture where like this happened a lot, where like girls at BYU would get pregnant and they would either like send them to a farm or send them to like an aunt apartment and like women would just be like gone for 10 months and then come back and nobody talks about it. And I'm just like the, the emotional gymnastics you have to do to like, to pretend that you didn't go through this thing or you can't even even acknowledge the fact that you had all of this. And we talk about later, but like her trying to go back to normal after this is just like, it's just so hard.

[A]

Heartbreaking.

[B]

Yeah. Really heartbreaking.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, to me, like, what you're describing feels like such a vestige of the past, but is like, as you're saying, it's like totally still happening in fundamentalist religions all over.

[B]

Yeah. Both of my brothers got girls pregnant when they were 19 and 20. And they both, I think because of religious reasons were like, okay, we have to have this baby and we have to get married and we have to be with this person now. And that's just like such a recipe for disaster in my experience. I'm sure there's wonderful marriages that have come out of two 19 year olds meeting and having wonderful lives. That's not been my experience with every woman.

[A]

Doesn't seem like the majority.

[B]

Correct. And so it just is like you are, are putting bad on top of bad. You're putting sand on top of a sand foundation. There's nothing to stand on here. There's nothing like strong or there's nothing like holding this up.

[A]

It feels like the thing, you know, And I think all religions are guilty of this. Where it feels sad when parents are more worried about how their kids are viewed in terms of if they're doing good or bad in their religion than they are, are concerned about how their kids are doing, period.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, are you showing up as a good Jew? Are you showing up as a good Mormon? Are you showing up as a good Christian versus, like, are you okay?

[B]

Right. Well, it's, you know, it's that classic thing of like, you're a representation of me. So if you're doing well, then I'm doing well. You know what I mean, like, then. So, yeah, it's very selfish in a lot of ways. Yeah.

[A]

So speaking of her parents, I really, like. I really go back and forth on these things. She goes home, and the first thing her mom says to her is, there's my naughty daughter.

[B]

I'm like, is this the beginning of a porno?

[A]

I truly am like, are we saying naughty? How are we playful now? Are we being a little silly? What is that? Or is she like, my naughty. And it really grossed me out. Her sister McCall is also pregnant. They're weeks apart and is mad at her because she did it right. She got married to a Mormon who went on a mission, and now Macy's pregnant and it's stealing her thunder.

[B]

Yeah. Her mom is taking care of her, and everyone's concerned about Macy, and they're all at home.

[A]

It's so weird. But she just. She does say, like. She's like, we're jealous of each other, basically.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, she's like, I don't have the words for it at the time, but she's being totally infantilized. She's shamed by her family constantly. She has to meet with the bishop. Unclear if it's the same one. To retain her ecclesiastical endorsement so she can go back to byu. And he. He's like, such an asshole. He dresses her down. He makes her count her sins. Like having sex, smoking weed, drinking coffee, drinking tea.

[B]

You can't drink tea, honey.

[A]

So Macy's home. She's depressed. She is struggling. Her dad gives her a journal. That's a good dad point. And says, write it all down. Write it all down. But what he's doing, which is a bad dad point is, he's doing his own PI work to prove that Eric cheated on Macy at some point during their relationship because he wants Macy to hate Eric.

[B]

You gain a point and you lose a point, dad.

[A]

You sure do. It's odd. He's. They've, like, decided that Eric's family is no good. And they've just, like. It's very strange. The whole thing is, like. It's very yucky. Anyway, he is proven right. He finds proof that Eric has cheated on Macy. And like all good Real Housewives of Orange county, he has the proof printed out from his computer and hands it over to his daughter. Daughter. And she then calls Eric's cousin Brian, who confirms it. And she is heartbroken. Heartbroken.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like the time when he was ghosting her. Like, it was like, during that time.

[B]

He was, like, going. They were going back and forth and he wasn't talking to her. And then like, she found out that the night after it happened was like, when he had texted her and was like, I love you. You're not the one.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know, like this, this grand betrayal again.

[A]

They're 19.

[B]

Yes. To be pregnant in your childhood home, taken away from everything, taken away from this guy that you love, to then be like, my dad has gone on the war path to prove this point that this guy I'm pregnant by is fucked up, and guess what? He's fucking bad. And I just don't know how any of that, A, is helpful or B, like, how she's supposed to, like, process all this and also, like, worry about the health of this child, which is like what they're supposed to be doing. Like the whole point of all this is like, like for the well being of this child. Potentially.

[A]

Yeah. It doesn't seem like they care much about her well being because they're also like, not turning on the air conditioning. Like, it's all just a mess. Anyway. She confronts Eric and he's like, no, I didn't cheat. She's like, you cheated. He's like, no, I didn't. She's like, yes, you did. I talked to your cousin. And he's like, okay, yes, I did cheat. I'm so sorry.

[B]

This is all long distance too. Like, this is their.

[A]

Yeah, it's like over FaceTime.

[B]

Yes. They're separated, so this is not physically together either. Her.

[A]

Yes. And then they. So they have this big fight and she texts him, like, if you're the only time you'll ever see your son is in court. Like, you'll never see me again. He texts her and says he loves her, she deserves better. He'll never forgive himself. He's sorry he put her through this. And the text ends on the letter J. The text is unfinished, which she later finds out is because he drove into a semi truck and died. She finds out while she's at lunch looking at Instagram while she's sitting across from her mom.

[B]

That's it. It's so brutal.

[A]

It's really dark. It's really, really fucking dark.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I can't even imagine. I mean, again, I've been so blessed and lucky that, like, I haven't had that kind of loss in my life up until this point. Like, I've had like, grandparents pass away or you know what I mean? But like, like I haven't had, like, somebody who was just like, very close to me even, like, as a young person, like, to have somebody Taken away from you at a young age. It just. It's so discombobulating. And then to add on top of it that it's the father of her child that she's currently pregnant with. It's just so dark.

[A]

Yeah. She talks about the frantic feeling of, like, she feels sick, she's in shock. She calls him because she doesn't believe it. And then she finally gets in touch with his dad again. Another point for this guy's dad. Dad who says it's true. And, like, he's like, please, Macy, stay calm. Like, stay calm for the baby. Like, he's trying to keep her calm while his own son has died.

[B]

He just lost his son.

[A]

I mean, she's. And then she says she has her own psychic moment. She's sure in that moment that she's pregnant with a boy.

[B]

Yes. I love that.

[A]

Give me. Give me tingles.

[B]

Yeah, I like that a lot. I love when women do that because it's like, it's just been proven true. Like, I saw this video of this woman who was like. Like, every time I get acupuncture, I see my baby girl, like, floating there. And then she found out she was pregnant with a girl. And I'm just like, I love that stuff.

[A]

I love that stuff. I love it. Oh, I do love it. We're magic women. We're magic men. Think they can beat us in tennis and they can't.

[B]

How dare you. Get away from us.

[A]

So Macy's dad comes home from a business trip and is there to, like, help her and hold her. And she's like, I know he was hard on Eric, but he knew I loved him. And in that moment, she decides she's going to keep the baby. And this is like, her family sort of starts to show up. They take her to Utah for Eric's viewing. At the viewing, she's referred to as his soulmate by his family. And his family just, again, just, like, seems so top notch.

[B]

Like, yeah, they seem great.

[A]

That's why I keep just being like, man, if she had just gone with Eric, like, I wonder what her life would have ended up. Ended up looking like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have to wonder, like, if her dad hadn't done all that digging. Like, it's just so many what ifs. If her dad had not done all that digging and they weren't fighting, like, then he wouldn't have been texting and driving. Like, that's, like, where my mind is.

[B]

While I'm reading all of this, of course. And I. I don't know how you don't go there. I mean, that's just that with any avoidable death, you always are going to have those. What if I did this? What if we did that? You know, like, that's just. Yeah. Baked into the experience, unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah. She's, like, so deeply in grief and depression, she's now trying to make sense of what is going to become of her life. She's out of school, she's taking classes online. She's trying to figure out her future now that she's going to be a single mom. Her mother does apologize for calling her a slut. So I guess that in the moment. Point, mom. Then her sister McCall, who's also, again, pregnant, signs up to be on the Ellen DeGeneres show for some, like, mom giveaway. And Macy's like, I'm gonna do that, too. And then does it, and then gets all the stuff.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I sort of get why McCall hates Macy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Macy seems like a little bit of a chosen child.

[A]

She does. And McCall seems like a textbook middle.

[B]

Yeah. Text textbook middle. Also right before this, too, I wanted to mention that she says she has a dream of Eric visiting her from heaven. And again, that's just like, shit. I love another psychic moment. Like, I love when people get confirmation of their loved ones who have passed in dreams. I feel like that's, like, so real. And I fully am bought in on those experiences.

[A]

I had one yesterday. Emily. Yesterday. Yes. Here's us taking a real detour. But as Emily knows, I had a very, very dear friend, my friend Alyssa Froman, pass away when we were 28 and she was 29 and maybe we were younger, and yesterday was her birthday. And I oftentimes, when I misplace things, I call upon four people to help me. Four of my angels. My Bubby, my grandma, my Aunt Joan, and Alyssa. And I always say, help me, ladies. I need your help. And without fail, they always help me find the thing. And yesterday, I could not find my wedding ring and my engagement ring. Ring. I flew back from Michigan two days ago, and I was like, did I leave my rings at home? Like, I don't think I would do that. I. I only ever take them off and put them in one spot in my house, and they weren't there. I told my mom that I was going to interrogate my kids when they got home from school, like, detective style. What did you do with my rings? And I don't know. They're. They're up to mischief all the time. And I asked in the morning, I said, alyssa, I know it's your birthday, so I don't want to bother you, but. Bubby, Grandma and aunt Joan, let's go. We got to find these rings. Then I go about my day. And then in the middle of the day, another dear friend of mine, Emma, texted me and said, happy Frohman birthday. Which was, like, so sweet. She didn't even know her, but she always remembers her birthday and she always texts me on her birthday. And I was just feeling, like, such gratitude for having another moment in the day that made me think of my friend who isn't here. And then also just like, gratitude for the friend that holds that for me also. And in that moment, I. I went over to my dryer and I opened up the dryer door and my rings fell out.

[B]

Oh, my God, Joe.

[A]

I know. I was like, oh, my God. Thank you, Frohman. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I called her mom and sister and told them, and I was like, I know it. I know it. It was just felt so. Like it was so crazy.

[B]

I have full body chills. That's insane.

[A]

I know. So good.

[B]

Happy birthday, Froman. We love you.

[A]

Happy birthday, Frohman. We love you. She would have been, like, horrified that I even read this book. She said it was supreme. Waste of your time, Joe. So that was my psychic moment yesterday.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

So she did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had a psychic moment, and Macy had a psychic moment that Eric visited her. And I think he said, like, we're having a son, right?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Confirms it for her. So back to Ellen. So she gets all this shit from Ellen. Her family is so worried about Macy harming herself that they make her sleep on a mattress in their room. Again, another choice that I'd be like, go sleep in Macy's room. Like, make her comfortable. My mom would be snuggling me with that CPAP on. She would be up in my business. But they're like. It's like they're doing everything. They don't leave her alone in the house. They're so worried about her, but they don't call a therapist, which is also so interesting.

[B]

I mean, very religious, Christian, coated of like therapy. No, no, no, no. No prayer.

[A]

No sleep on dog bed next to mom.

[B]

Let's not talk about it. Everyone shut up.

[A]

She's like so deep in her grief, the more pregnant she's getting. She then has a visit with Eric's parents, and she sees his dad has become so gaunt and so consumed with his own grief that it brings her the resolve to keep living. She's Like, I can't do this. I'm about to have a baby, and it changes her pregnancy. And she's like, I'm going to pull it together for me and this kid. She has a C section. Hudson is born. She gets to introduce Hudson to Eric's family. Her incision becomes infected after she gives birth, and it sounds like no one helps her. Also, her birth process sounds like no one helps her. Like, it feels like they just write her off as a teenage pregnancy. And they're like. She says. They say, go walk over there to your C section.

[B]

Truly. They're like, go get your C section. And she's like, okay.

[A]

It just seems like everyone is punishing her for being a teen mom, and no one is helping her at all. And just the idea of, like, your C section incision being infected and, like, no one helping you.

[B]

As a postpartum doula, I was losing my mind.

[A]

I want to shout you out. As a postpartum doula that at one point during my postpartum period, you came into my room and brought me soup and kissed my forehead, and it was like, the most treasured memory of my weird haze.

[B]

That's how all women who just fucking gave birth should be treated. God damn it.

[A]

Like, oh, you're so right, man. You're so right.

[B]

They just ripped their body in half. Like, let them rest. Treat them like little princesses. My goodness.

[A]

Like, kiss their heads.

[B]

Kiss their little heads. Their little sweet heads. Yeah. And I'm sure she's, like, overexerting herself or she's doing too much, and you're just like, don't let your feet touch the floor for two weeks. What are you doing?

[A]

You know, her parents are like, can you walk the dog?

[B]

Yes, Exactly.

[A]

It's truly visceral. When she describes the infection, you're like, she. But she also is, like, concerned about the infection because she has to get back into fighting shape to play tennis is so that she can go back to college. Like, all of this rides on going back to college.

[B]

Yes. So she does things about byu.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Everything is about byu. Yeah.

[A]

Which is also interesting because it's like, it's not. She's not at BYU to study. She's at BYU to play tennis and get married. Like, these are the reasons.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So she. She does. She goes back to byu. She's. She gets back into her number one place on the tennis team. She's working really hard. She has five weeks to get it together. She does it. She resolves that she wants to be a good Mormon. No. More sex before marriage. That guy Cole from the beginning of this whole story, she starts texting with again. This is also where her mom gets nice mom points. Her mom moves to Utah to help take care of her baby so she can go to college and play tennis. And they move in with her sister Lauren and she's like full, a full time caregiver kind of undoes a lot of it.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. And I think, think maybe as a parent you kind of know that going into it that you're going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting and so you kind of, your resentment is front loaded perhaps in the process. And then you know, as you move on, you kind of are. It all kind of evens out and simmers down. But yeah, I mean she lets her go to tournaments. The mom fully like takes the baby sometimes for like weeks at a time when she has to travel for tennis and whatnot. And so it again, it's a very privileged position for her to be in. I think she's very grateful for it. She does get like slack from like other girls on the team about it too where they're like, they call her a nepa. Like this is pretty. But they write like nepotism on stuff. Yeah. And they just like are like, your mom does everything for you. And like it's, it's, it's a lose lose for her.

[A]

Like, you know, such a lose lose.

[B]

She stand if she did. Damn if she doesn't. You know what I mean?

[A]

100%. Like her life is hard. She's like, she's on wick. Her parents aren't paying for everything, even though she's got childcare covered. Like she asks one of her best friends like to hang out and the friend is like, you're a mom now. And she's like, I don't know what that means. And I gotta say, like, I wasn't a teen mom, but I was a 32 year old mom in LA, which is sort of the same thing. And like no one, no one wants to hang out. Like, no. Except for, except for Emily, but nobody. Well, also, I lived in Palms, but like no one wants to hang out. You just get like when you become a mom, you immediately get moved down the roster. Like you just do. Because people, yes, also like, you might want to be moved down the roster, but you still want to be invited.

[B]

No, you want to be, you want to be included always. You want the option to be like, I'm not going.

[A]

Yes, exactly. I want. Let me turn you down. Okay, so, so now she so she has no friends, but her sister recruits an Australian tennis player named Tyler.

[B]

Tyler.

[A]

Tyler. Not Taylor. Taylor. Taylor. And they become friends. And then Taylor meets a guy named Jacob. And she's really giddy about Jacob. And Macy meets him and agrees. Agrees he's really hot. He's also from Southern California. She tells her dad about Jacob and her dad agrees he's a good looking dude.

[B]

What? Macy's dad. Get off of Instagram now. Get off of Instagram.

[A]

You sleep your phone away or Andy Cohen. Call this man and put first man on Housewives. I. I'm telling you, he would be good.

[B]

Get a camera. He's in cutter the casa already.

[A]

He's there. He's local. Local hire. This guy's a freak. Stop telling your dad you think guys are hot.

[B]

Also, it's her friend's guy that she's talking to, which already is kind of cloaked in a little bit of like, you shouldn't have eyes for him. But also, I appreciate her candidness for being like, I was fully crushing on the guy that my friend was talking to this whole time.

[A]

I agree. I would appreciate a little less candidness on telling your parents about who your friends are dating. That's weird.

[B]

Yeah, that's weird. And that you're attracted to them and.

[A]

That you're attracted to them and that your dad's attracted to him. So Taylor's dating Jacob. Macy's like, making out with that guy Cole again from high school. Things are good. She gets an internship at Good Things Utah on ABC News. She loves it. And when she's there, she says to someone, like a guest casually, that she has a baby out of wedlock. And the guest is like, oh, you don't have to say that. You don't have to explain any of that to anyone. Like, you don't owe it to anyone. And it rocks her world.

[B]

Wow. Wow.

[A]

Things that seem so obvious to us that like, blow her mind make me so sad.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. She's so sheltered.

[A]

She's so sheltered, you know? Yeah. So now she's like, home for a break. Jacob, who's also from Southern California, is hanging out at her house. Her family loves him. Tyla's back in Australia. How'd I do there with my accent? Okay, thank you. Tyla's back in Australia. And then Macy's mom, one night after they're hanging out with Jacob, she goes, my mom tells me to look at his lips. And she says, don't you want to kiss them?

[B]

Mom and dad, get out of here.

[A]

You're just you're stop trying to your kids crush you weirdos.

[B]

Or go like you guys go like.

[A]

You guys go out of your system. What is wrong? These parents freak out me. Oh, they freak me out so much. Lord. All right. But she says to her mom he was seeing Tayla last semester, so no. But also she does admit she has a crush on him. Now do we believe this part?

[B]

My whole family wants to.

[A]

Jacob wants to.

[B]

Jacob.

[A]

I had to like, look up a picture of him again to be like, what does this guy look like? And it's like, oh, he literally just looks like a guy.

[B]

Like, he's just like normal guy.

[A]

They're all dripping for him. Then she says Taylor texts her and says, says this is random, but I think you and Jacob would actually be a really cute couple. Now do we believe this? Emily, do you think this text occurred?

[B]

I don't know. My alarm bells went off reading that too. Yeah, I'm sure some sort of conversation. Because T comes back from Australia for the next semester and seems like cool with it or Macy leaves it out of the book. Either way.

[A]

Either way, she gets the guy.

[B]

Otherwise, she's this guy.

[A]

She's this guy. So, okay, so they start dating. She says Jacob lives in a Mormon frat house. And she goes over there and says one day guys were dipping wonder bread into water and slapping each other in the face, which did give her the ick.

[B]

And thank God it gave her the ick because I was hoping she would be like. And then I saw these guys horse playing around.

[A]

I love a bad boy. Whipping bread. Soggy bread, Game names. And I guess it does make sense that she then doesn't want to commit to Jacob. She like keeps ghosting him on and off. But throughout it, he texts her mom to stay in touch. I don't like that.

[B]

It feels almost like arranged marriage. Like, it feels like the parents have way too much say over.

[A]

Like way too much.

[B]

And who people are dating. And it's very strange.

[A]

I don't want. I don't like that happening.

[B]

I don't like it. I don't like it. Really weird. But another thing is he's very close with her son too. Right? Jacob is also very close with Hudson, her son. They formed a relationship in this time as well.

[A]

Yeah, they form a bond even when they're friends before they start dating. But then eventually they do commit and they say they love each other. And she says when Hudson is 18 months old, this actually I felt was really beautiful. She said, my body finally feels legible. I've never heard anyone say legible about their body. And that really, really was a beautiful sentence to the ghostwriter. I wanted to say, did it feel.

[B]

Good job? Did you connect with that?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, even now my kids are like, almost three and seven and like, I don't feel like, autonomy over my body just because they're all up in my shit all the time. Legible feels like such a beautiful statement of like, I can understand my body. It takes a long time to, like, understand your body again after your body, like, goes through all. All these not even physical, but, like, hormonal shifts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So much so she is. She's feeling back in her body, and then she's playing tennis, and during a game, she collapses and she has an ACL tear, which causes, like, another stoppage in her tennis career. She has to get surgery. Recovery takes a really long time. She gets depressed again. And Jacob at this time is going through his own stuff and says he wants to go and do a mission. He also hasn't done his mission because he's a reformed bad boy. One can only assume that means he drank a lot of tea in high school. And that, like, really upsets her that he's thinking about going on a mission. And she feels like he's doing it for his family more than himself. And at one point, he thinks he's calling his stake president, but it's actually Macy's dad. He accidentally calls Macy's dad.

[B]

So strange.

[A]

Why do you have their numbers? Why are their numbers so high on your contact list? So many questions.

[B]

Well, also, I just love the dichotomy of, like, for the longest time, a man going on mission was the number one thing that she needed and, like, a future partner. And now the one that she wants to be with is like, I'm going on mission. And she's like, nuh, no, don't go. No, no, no.

[A]

She's also upset that they might break up for this mission because her son is already calling him dad, which I have to say is odd.

[B]

I agree with that. That's not a good choice.

[A]

It's not a good choice, unfortunately. Strange. But then her dad comes back with, can you believe it? Good advice and says, hey, Macy, don't decide to break up with him. See where it goes. So she's like, okay. And then he decides he isn't gonna go on a mission because his mission is Macy and Hudson.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

I would kind of be offended by that. I'm a mission.

[B]

I mean, yeah, I give it a pass.

[A]

Okay. Okay. You're gonna call it romantic.

[B]

I'll say it's romantic. Sure.

[A]

You are my life's work. He proposes in a windswept photography scenario involving a fictional book. That's their story again.

[B]

You know, I think for someone like her who wants the photo op, wants the picture, wants the Instagram in Utah, I think, you know, there's a lot of content around the engagement, probably for a lot of these gals. So I'm sure she was thankful that he made sure it was postable.

[A]

You're right. He was thinking of what she wanted.

[B]

It's not like when you got engaged and I had to force you to put on a dress and makeup because I knew you're getting proposed to that night.

[A]

You let me smoke marijuana before getting proposed to.

[B]

Okay, I. And I stand by that. I think that that was the best thing I ever could have done. Also, you.

[A]

You.

[B]

Red flags would have went off if I was like, let's not smoke weed.

[A]

True. You let me smoke a. Smoke a bowl before I went out to dinner with my husband, which was. But I wasn't stoned by the time he proposed, but exactly. Could have. Could have been back to the book. She's still in college and she is still experiencing PTSD despite the fact that she is engaged and life is quote, unquote, good. And Lauren finally suggests therapy. Macy goes to therapy. We did it, Jo.

[B]

We got there.

[A]

Macy goes to therapy where her therapist helps her understand that the abuse wasn't her fault. She wins her last tennis match in college. It seems like she's getting her happy ending. She and Jacob get married. They get sealed in the temple. They don't really know what it means, but they get sealed there. It means I do know a little bit. It means that you can't go to it unless you're, like, also sealed in the temple like other people. Fam. They have, like, two weddings.

[B]

And it also means that they're tied together for, like, ever.

[A]

Yes, they're. Yes, they're tied forever. They don't have a honeymoon because they have to move to Texas for his work. And here's another fun rule Macy's parents have that they don't financially support their kids once they're no longer single. So money is tight. It's hot. She's got a baby. She's got no friends, but there's an end date, and she wants to use her time in Texas well. So she decides that she wants to maybe tell her story and share her story of her abuse. Abuse. I love this. That she starts educating herself on social media, on photography, so that she can blog. She's like, listening to these educational podcasts. She says none of this is her zone of genius. It's her zone of incompetence. Again, a beautiful sentence from our ghost writer. One must assume she starts her blog and immediately her macyjay.com macyjay.com her dad calls her and is like, I didn't know any of this stuff, but not important. What does matter is, let's monetize. And so her dad helps her figure out how to monetize. And over six months, her following on her blog grows from 2,000 to 10,000. X's of dick end up reaching out. She feels really validated. She gets invited to her first influencer event, and she's still feeling like money is tight and she has a job, but she's away from Hudson so much, it makes her feel horrible. So she decides to pivot. This I thought was actually funny. She was like, there was another girl at my job who was like, I'm gonna leave this job for another one. And that made me realize I could leave this job for another one. Sometimes it just takes another friend. She gets a job at Goldman Sachs doing social media. She's making money. Jacob and Macy explain that he has another dad, that the dad died, and that Jacob wasn't there when he was born. I thought that was really, like, beautifully handled.

[B]

Yeah. I will say, I think again if you know, like, Chelsea's story too. Like, apparently her mom did tell her when she was young, and then, like. Like, they never talked about it again. And then her mom said it when she was 14. And so I. That's my only. You know, my only.

[A]

That's your note.

[B]

That's my note is like, you gotta keep. And you gotta keep saying it over. And you can't just be like, we had the conversation. Phew, that went great. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You do have to bring it up a few times. I hope they do.

[B]

I bet they will by saying, let's watch Bluey. And then all is well again.

[A]

Is there a Bluey episode for this?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Be. Now, this is interesting. They do ivf. They don't say why they're doing it. Did you think that was interesting?

[B]

I did find that interesting because she said it several times. She just kept saying, for genetics reasons.

[A]

Yes. None of our biz. It's interesting to, like, have this really exposing memoir and then be like, and we're doing ivf, and I'm not saying why.

[B]

And yeah.

[A]

Which is also fine. So she's doing IVF. Covid happens and she starts making TikToks. And on social media, she meets Michaela, who we know from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I love Michaela.

[B]

I don't love Michaela, but you don't.

[A]

I do. So bad for her.

[B]

I do. I feel bad for her, but I feel like she's just kind of like, mean for no reason. A lot of the girls are like, she has that thing with like housewives where it's like these are like where they kind of like choose their people and then they don't open the door to anybody else.

[A]

That is her and Macy for sure.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't like that when there's like, like clearly like teams or alliances that will have each other's, which is great. You have each other's backs, but then you don't ever, like, the story doesn't ever evolve.

[A]

Like Tamara and Heather this season.

[B]

Correct, correct. Or like Marisol and Alexia.

[A]

Oh, for sure. God, it's such a good season over there. Such a good season over there. So now, like, they're this, like, brand deals are happening. She, Macy wants a nice stroller for her baby that she is pregnant with and she, she reaches out. She gets that brand deal. She gets that nuna stroller that people love. She has her baby Harlow, it's another C section. Jacob is a great dad. She gets postpartum depression and she describes her herself as throwing herself into work through her depression. And she's like the thing that she describes about herself I couldn't relate to more where she's like, when times get hard, I push harder. But I'm like, when times get hard, I've become a herb.

[B]

I like the laughs.

[A]

She's like, if I'm having trouble running, I run faster. And I'm like, if I'm having trouble running, I start walking.

[B]

Yeah. No, we are not the same girl.

[A]

We're not the same. So at a Santa themed lingerie party, she meets TFP baby Taylor, Frankie, Paul. And she says, hi, we've been following each other on social media and Taylor says, oh, we have. What's your name? So rude.

[B]

Very rude.

[A]

Drag her, drag her. They meet up, they do a little fun video. And then Mikayla wants in. And that's pretty much how mom talk is born. And she said she likes Taylor, she's edgy and fun and that Mikayla and Whitney and Macy are actually close, but everyone else, except sometimes Taylor remained more of an acquaintance than a friend. Then she like, briefly touches on the swinging scandal, like, very Briefly.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. A soft touch.

[A]

A soft touch. Which is like, basically what happens with Taylor, Frankie, Paul, that there's like, some open marriages and people think she's involved, but she's not. And she's like, my family doesn't care. We don't care what people think of us. Which I'm like, that's not true. Your family wouldn't let you tell anyone you were pregnant.

[B]

You had to hide away in California from your university so that you could play tennis.

[A]

So bizarre. So bizarre. Yeah, but she touches on it, like, very briefly. She really doesn't give any, like, mom talk or Secret lives tea. She's just like. Then I started a vitamin line. She does EMDR so that she can, like, do more work of her trauma.

[B]

She runs.

[A]

She runs into Dick at one point and he won't look at her. And she feels like, oh, my God, he's scared of me. And it feels like an ultimate, like, love that. Loved that.

[B]

Love that we love that moment.

[A]

She says she's filming Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. She. The show premieres and they see, like, the Sunset Boulevard billboard, and she just can't believe, like, how her life has changed. And she is religious. She pays her tithing, she teaches. Teaches 5 year olds about Jesus. So she's like, full relig. And the way this book ends, she's just had her extensions done by Jesse, her castmate, and she's about to do her embryo transfer for baby number three when she says she's, like, just looking at her life and overwhelmed at how far she's come. She says, I'm so grateful that when the lab calls my name, I can stand and say, I'm here. Emily. Emily, you crying again?

[B]

Didn't cry once. Wants. But, yeah, happy. Happy for her that she can.

[A]

I'm happy that this thin, blonde white woman who's been through some horrible things ended up a bazillionaire from the Internet.

[B]

Seems like she's doing just fine.

[A]

She's okay. And Emily, I have to do the book Dell test with you. Let's do it. Was the author vulnerable in sharing their truth? Yes. Yeah, I think yes. She told us a lot of horrific shit in great detail.

[B]

She told us a lot, but I feel like I didn't get a lot of reflection from her.

[A]

Yeah, I think I would have liked more of, like, I did therapy and this is what I unpacked about, why I responded this way, or, like, these are conversations I've had with my family since then, or, like, deeper exploration.

[B]

It just seems like she's kind of like giving us the information. It literally seems like she took, like, diary entries and then, like, formatted them into, like, two page chapters, you know?

[A]

She didn't format this herself, honey.

[B]

Okay, well, the ghostwriter, our beautiful ghostwriter did.

[A]

Yeah. Was it entertaining?

[B]

No.

[A]

No, I don't think it was. My daughter was like, what is this book you're reading? And I was like, I don't want to be reading this book, it turns out, but I have to. And she was like, just say you don't want to do it. And I was like, no, no, I've committed to it. I was trying to, like, show her how to be responsible. I was like, even though it's not not as fun of a book as I thought it would be, I made a promise and we have to keep our commitments.

[B]

Yeah. Shocking that the fifth most interesting person on the cast of Mormon Wives book is not interesting or fun.

[A]

It's so true. It's like the thing that is most interesting about her you already know. So it's like, I would a Taylor, Frankie, Paul. I'd rather have that memoir.

[B]

Exactly. And literally all we care about is Mormon wife stuff. And that's the last.

[A]

She didn't tell us anything. She didn't tell us anything. Did reading it elevate your life?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. But here's what I do know. I'm glad to have spent this time with you.

[B]

Oh, of course. I'm happy to spend time with you. I would have much rather spend eating Taco Bell, smoking weed, and watching Real Housewives, but this was just as good.

[A]

I think Chelsea's gonna have us on for the smoking weed, eating Taco Bell, watching Housewives episode.

[B]

Okay, good, good, good. Count me in.

[A]

And thank you, Chelsea, for letting us be here without you.

[B]

Yeah, the kids have charge of the store, and we're going crazy.

[A]

We're getting crazy. Emily Walker.

[B]

Where can people find you roaming? Sunset Boulevard? No, I have an Instagram. I don't post on it that much. Emily Joy 132. I tried starting a sub stack. Not going great. You did? Yeah. I haven't told anyone about about it. It's truly a nightmare.

[A]

Wait, you make good tiktoks.

[B]

Oh, thanks.

[A]

Do you want to plug your TikTok?

[B]

No, I'm a good. I'm good at finding good tiktoks. So if you're like, what's fun stuff? Give me, like, fun five funny TikToks. I'm happy to send that to you.

[A]

DM Emily, for five funny TikToks. And she will take time out of her day or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, okay, great. Well, I love you. Thank you for being here. And you are my Mormon wife forever.

[B]

I love you. And we are sealed together for eternity.

[A]

I love you. And let's wear matching underpants. Is that what they do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Love you. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at thrivecon Cosmetics and every plate we will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier. You can join, leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there. And Doug, here we have the Limu.

[B]

Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[A]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera.

[B]

They see us.

[A]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates.

[B]

Excludes Massachusetts.

[A]

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Theme.

[A]

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