Michelle Williams’ Memoir Checking In (with Quincie Zari)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Michelle Williams’ Memoir Checking In (with Quincy Zari)
Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Takari Leese
Guest: Quincy Zari

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Checking In: How Getting Real about Depression Saved My Life and Can Save Yours by Michelle Williams, the singer and Broadway star best known for her time with Destiny’s Child. Takari and guest Quincy Zari book club the memoir/self-help hybrid, examining themes of mental health, depression, faith, pop culture, and womanhood, with a sharp and heartfelt lens. They reflect on Michelle’s early life, her challenges with fame, struggles with identity, and the importance of "checking in"—with oneself, others, and mental health professionals. The hosts also discuss the memoir’s balance between vulnerability, privacy, and its unique blend of biography and Christian self-help.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Destiny’s Child, Fan Introduction, and Michelle’s Early Life

• The Many Eras of Destiny’s Child:
  • Both hosts recall their first encounters with the group, reflecting on the changing lineup and pop culture impact.
    • Quincy: “...When I think of Destiny's Child now, I know the other three members that have been cycled out, but I only know the names of Michelle, Beyonce, and Kelly.” [04:28]
  • Michelle’s introduction as a band member was abrupt, as illustrated in the “Say My Name” music video confusion.
• Michelle’s Upbringing:
  • Born in Rockford, Illinois, 1979, a sensitive Leo and the third of four children.
  • Middle child dynamics inform her self-effacing, 'don’t-rock-the-boat' persona.
    • Takari: “She’s definitely an I don’t want to rock the boat person…and you can see that in the writing as well.” [07:01]
• Christian Roots & Career Choices:
  • Michelle struggled with the expectation to stay in the church versus pursuing secular music.
  • Her music career began as a backup singer for Monica by chance, highlighting themes of faith, readiness, and serendipity.

2. Mental Health, Depression, and ‘Checking In’

• Gut-Punch Opening:
  • The memoir opens with Michelle imagining her own funeral, a harrowing account of suicidal ideation.
    • Takari (reading Michelle): “…I found myself imagining the entire service, fantasizing about it, debating which scripture should be read...I didn’t have an exact plan for how I’d end my life, but those thoughts were quickly forming, and I was so ashamed.” [08:10]
• Challenging Stigma in the Black Community & Church:
  • Both hosts note Michelle’s public candor was pivotal in breaking taboos around Black women's mental health.
  • Quincy: “...within the church, it's like, you're fine, just pray about it. You can pray, but then you can also follow these steps in this book.” [05:32]
• Therapy & Family Support:
  • Michelle’s first therapist was suggested by her own religious, pragmatic mother—a surprising and crucial step (see [34:10]).
  • The importance of not just “being busy” as a coping mechanism but addressing underlying issues.
  • Depression is described as “an assassin...it acts like a silent, slow killer, and if you don’t deal with it, it can swallow you up.” [Takari quoting Michelle, 39:03].

3. Secrets, Identity, and the Name Game

• Not Just Michelle:
  • Michelle reveals her real name is Tanitra, a point of reflection on self, stage identity, and respectability politics.
    • Takari: “It actually broke my heart…if I had the awareness to check in with myself…maybe she would have saved herself a great deal of wounds and inspired younger girls to be themselves all the time.” [24:43]
  • The conversation explores the pressure to “Anglicize” names for mainstream success, even within Black-led environments.
• Being the ‘Other’ Michelle Williams:
  • Frequent confusion with the white, Oscar-winning actress Michelle Williams leads to awkward social media mixups, magnifying issues of labeling and identity [27:07].

4. Industry Turmoil and Betrayal

• Behind the Scenes of Destiny’s Child:
  • Details about the group’s internal drama, the sudden firing of members, management control, and the group’s notorious turnover are discussed candidly.
  • Tina Knowles’ infamous “mustache” story about meeting Michelle is highlighted for its honesty and humor [20:03].
• Personal Betrayal:
  • Michelle recounts intense feelings of rage and abandonment when a close friend/assistant leaves her for a “competitor” (possibly someone higher up in the industry).
  • This catalyzes her therapy journey and opens discussions on big emotions, especially when suppressed for years [32:51].

5. Romantic Relationships & Rejection

• Anthony: The ‘Crash Out Story’
  • A vulnerable, raw chapter about being emotionally triggered and anxious in relationships, connecting adult romantic behavior back to childhood family dynamics [43:07].
• Chad (Fiancé) and the Reality TV Saga:
  • Michelle’s whirlwind relationship with white pastor Chad, their quick engagement, and reality TV show dilemma is unpacked in detail.
  • Chad’s lack of understanding around depression and mental health, particularly his on-camera “Did you take your meds today?” moment, is sharply critiqued [65:45].
  • The pressures of doing a reality show with a brand-new relationship, Michelle’s intuition versus anxiety, and the challenges of being a "God-fearing Christian couple" in the public eye.
  • The final breakup’s effect on Michelle, her subsequent depression episode, and admittance to a mental health facility—all under tabloid scrutiny.

6. Shame, Strength, and Recovery Publicly

• Checking Into the Hospital:
  • Michelle describes the courage it took to seek inpatient help—and the shame forced upon her by societal and industry expectations.
    • Quincy: “...You’re actually showing a huge amount of strength because you are continuing to advocate for your own health by putting everything on pause and checking in. Because our society puts so much shame around needing to go to a rehab facility when this shouldn’t be shameful.” [72:08]
• Cycle of Overwork:
  • Post-breakup and release from the facility, Michelle defaults to burying herself in work—Broadway, TV, and music.

7. Fame, Pop Culture and the ‘Poor Michelle’ Meme

• 106 & Park Fall:
  • Michelle’s infamous onstage fall becomes a viral meme, birthing “Poor Michelle” culture. Unlike similar public slips from Beyoncé, Michelle is ridiculed instead of praised for professionalism.
  • The hosts note the cruelty and impact of this public shaming on her sense of self-worth [53:05].
• End of Destiny’s Child & “Replacement” Status:
  • The abrupt end of the group, her surprise at the breakup, and the lingering wound of sometimes being treated/perceived like a “replacement” member.

8. Reclamation, Growth, and Moving Forward

• Finding Her Voice (Again):
  • Reclaiming her talent through positive media experiences, like The Masked Singer in the UK and Australia, receiving overdue validation and praise [77:58].
  • Ongoing work on Broadway (Death Becomes Her), reuniting with Destiny’s Child for Cowboy Carter tour, and the continued public love.
    • Takari: “Give her her flowers right now.” [80:28]
• Labels, Public Perceptions, and Race:
  • Michelle’s thoughts on society’s labels—how she’s perceived as “unable to keep a man,” and how she’s now better at letting such comments roll off after her healing work [81:49].
• The Importance of Checking In:
  • Both hosts emphasize regular check-ins with oneself and with friends, inspired by Michelle’s final chapters.
    • Quincy: “...Sometimes you just gotta get off your high horse and go check in with people. Sometimes it’s really not about you.” [87:09]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Middle Child Energy:
  "She's definitely an I don't want to rock the boat person. And you can see that in her writing as well."
  — Takari [07:01]

• On Christian Self-Help and Therapy:
  "...within the church, it's like, you're fine, just pray about it. You can pray, but then you can also follow these steps in this book."
  — Quincy [05:32]

• On Naming and Identity:
  "If I had the awareness to check in with myself before making that decision...maybe she would have saved herself a great deal of wounds and inspired younger girls to be themselves all the time."
  — Takari [24:43]

• On Mental Health Realness:
  "Depression is an assassin...it acts like a silent, slow killer and if you don't deal with it, it can swallow you up."
  — Michelle (read by Takari) [39:03]

• On Pop Culture’s Double Standards:
  "Beyonce messes up, and people are like ugh, consummate professional. But Michelle does it, and they're like, poor Michelle."
  — Takari [54:17]

• On Seeking Help:
  "...You're actually showing a huge amount of strength because you are continuing to advocate for your own health by putting everything on pause and checking in."
  — Quincy [72:08]

• On the Importance of Real Community:
  "If you don't have the right people in your life, they're going to lead you down the wrong path, reinforce the wrong messages..."
  — Quincy [50:49]

• On Growth:
  "...Mental health journeys are not linear. It's gonna be up and down...the tools and the coping mechanisms that we learn through therapy, through reading, it’s just something that’s gonna keep us going through the ebbs and flows. It’s a never ending journey."
  — Quincy [82:29]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Takari’s Trigger Warning & Book Framing: [02:50]
• Michelle’s Funeral Scene (Memoir Opening): [07:17]
• Therapy & Childhood Roots: [33:34], [39:51]
• Identity & Name Discussion (Tanitra vs. Michelle): [23:08]
• The BET 106 & Park Fall / “Poor Michelle” Discourse: [51:06]
• Chad, Reality TV, and the Downfall: [56:53], [63:51], [65:45]
• Mental Health Check-In / Hospitalization: [71:18]
• Post-Chad, Broadway, Positive Pop Moments: [77:35]
• Final Reflections & Book Club Test: [83:04]
• On Checking In with Friends: [87:09]

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Book Dull Test & Final Thoughts

• Was the author vulnerable in sharing her truth?
  Mostly yes. Michelle is candid about her mental health and relationships, restraining only to protect her family and others.

• Was it entertaining?
  Yes, surprisingly so, especially through the audiobook, Michelle’s humor, and frank pop culture commentary.

• Did reading it elevate your life?
  The hosts found introspective value—even if it didn’t radically change their lives, it prompted reflection on personal habits, thoughts, and emotional health.

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Takeaways

Checking In is not a conventional celebrity memoir but a hybrid of personal anecdote, Christian self-help, and mental health advocacy. Michelle Williams’ openness on topics of depression, therapy, fame, and “replacement” status makes the book a “gateway” for readers—especially those in Christian or Black communities—to seek help without shame. Quincy and Takari stress the importance of having the right people in your corner, advocating for therapy, and the universal necessity of regularly checking in with both yourself and loved ones.

The episode balances compassion, humor, sharp pop culture analysis, and generous context—making it a necessary listen for fans of Destiny’s Child, memoirs, and nuanced discussions of mental health in celebrity culture.

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Where to Find the Hosts

• Quincy Zari: Instagram: @quincyzari; Podcast: The List (@livelaughthelist)
• Takari Leese: Appears regularly on Glamorous Trash and The List

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For more resources or to join the ongoing book club discussion, visit the Glamorous Trash Patreon or check the show notes for mental health resources.

Transcript

[Quincy Zari]

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[Takari Leese]

McDonald's for a limited time.

[Quincy Zari]

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[Takari Leese]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash, a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your guest host Takari Leese. I'm a comedian, TV writer, actor, kid lit enthusiast and host of the amazing new podcast the List. You may recognize me from the episodes that recap books by Ricki Lake, Jennifer Hudson and Josephine Baker. Did I like any of those books? No. Was I still charming? Polite? Effervescent? Funny? You bet your sweet ass. Today we are book clubbing the memoir of singer, author and Broadway star Michelle Williams titled Checking How Getting Real About Depression Saved My Life and Can Save Yours. Michelle is of course most known for being a member of Destiny's Child. I mean, come on. I want to be clear that this book is probably less of a memoir and more Christian self help. So the biography her story comes up when she's discussing themes in the book. So she'll talk about her childhood in chapter one and then in chapter 10 we'll maybe get another story about her childhood and everything is done through the lens of being as respectful as possible to the other people mentioned. However, I still learned a lot about the drama surrounding her engagement and some really fun Destiny's Child tidbits. Just so you know, before we get into the book, I do want to note a couple of trigger warnings. So listen up. There's a lot of mental health talk in this book and we are going to discuss candidly topics like suicidal ideation, negative self talk and depression. We have some helpful resources in the show notes for you and as always, take care while listening. Now let's dive in. After all of the darkness and sadness. Our guest today is legendary hot person and one of my the List co hosts Quincy Zari. Hello. Hello. Hi babe. Quincy is a Brooklyn based creative producer, model comedian who's originally from the Pacific Northwest they have lent their good looks to brands like JBL, Macy's, Thinx, Hollister, and Refinery29. Pivoting behind the camera, Quincy's had a hand in developing the careers of models who continue to work on a global scale. Work. Quincy describes herself as a pop culture obsessed, blurred, and is a friend to all, but a mother to one, her beloved dog child, Charlotte.

[Quincy Zari]

Hi, Q. Hey. That was beautiful. Thank you.

[Takari Leese]

You're so welcome. Quincy, I'm curious if you were a Destiny's Child fan when you were younger.

[Quincy Zari]

Definitely, Definitely. I mean, I feel like who wasn't? And I think my first intro to D.C. was smart guy potentially, you know.

[Takari Leese]

Oh, my God.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, yeah. When they guest starred and TJ was tapping to no, no, no, Part two.

[Takari Leese]

They were wearing fubu. I remember that. Wow. Okay. Wow. That's. Yeah. Taking me back.

[Quincy Zari]

Yes, yes.

[Takari Leese]

I think it's important to ask that because, like, obviously we're doing Michelle's book, but when it comes to Destiny's Child, there are different iterations where people have experience. With Destiny's Child, there's like OG where there were all four of them. And then, of course, the iteration with Michelle and Farrah and then of course, DC3.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So I'm wondering, like, with your relationship with the Smart Guy reference, you probably knew it as the original four.

[Quincy Zari]

Yes, definitely the original four. And then I remember watching what music video was it when Michelle was introduced?

[Takari Leese]

Say my name.

[Quincy Zari]

Say my name. Exactly. And I remember watching that music video and being confused because love the song, but who are these other two girls? And then after that song, it was just the three. I was young enough to just accept it. We have Beyonce and Kelly. And so there's, you know, the two people that I can latch onto and then just accepted the members changing. And when I think of Destiny's Child now, I know the other three members that have been cycled out, but I only know the names of Michelle, Beyonce, and Kelly.

[Takari Leese]

Correct.

[Quincy Zari]

Yes.

[Takari Leese]

My next question for you is, did you like this book?

[Quincy Zari]

I did like it.

[Takari Leese]

You did?

[Quincy Zari]

I did. I found it entertaining. There were parts where, you know, it was, like, written in Michelle's voice for the most part. So there'd be moments where, you know, I'd have a little giggle. You know, Michelle has a relationship with God, she's religious, she's a Christian. And I felt like this book was a good way to open the door for folks who have walked in the ways of Christianity, were born in the church, and can still find solace in mental health therapy, whatever ways you need. To. And it doesn't have to be a taboo because we know within the church, it's like, you're fine, just pray about it. You can pray, but then you can also follow these steps in this book. So I felt like it might be a good gateway for a lot of people in the church who still struggle.

[Takari Leese]

I love that you said that. It's basically how I felt about the book. And I actually enjoyed this book as an audiobook and then kind of read it after. So I'm really excited, as we get into the book, to be like, I'm gonna tell you how specifically Michelle, she got in the audio portion, because she definitely went off book in the audio. She absolutely did. And I cannot wait to discuss that further. Let's just like introduce Michelle really quickly. So just bare bones, basic. Michelle was born July 23, 1979 in Rockford, Illinois. She's a July Leo, if that matters to you.

[Quincy Zari]

I mean, a Leo and a July one. So I would. She's a cuss with cancer. So she's a sensitive Leo.

[Takari Leese]

Very much so sensitive. And she's the third of four kids. So I'm two of four. And I think you're four or four, right?

[Quincy Zari]

I'm technically, I'm the fifth, but. Oh, that's right.

[Takari Leese]

You're Quincy. You're five of five.

[Quincy Zari]

It's a. It's a complicated half sibling situation. So in most circles, I'm the four, you know.

[Takari Leese]

Ridiculous. No, But I think that also, like, aids in sort of how she talks about herself and like how she sees herself. Just because she's like, in the middle. She's definitely I don't want to rock the boat person. And you can see that in the writing as well.

[Quincy Zari]

Definitely a middle child.

[Takari Leese]

Middle child syndrome, for sure. I wanna start with the intro of this book. And I think it's probably one of the heaviest parts of the book. And in the intro, we're sort of in this time and place, July 2018, and she's in a very dark place. And she actually starts off the book talking about her funeral. And she asks the question, what songs will they sing at my funeral? And I actually want to read this part because I don't want to mess this up. So she says, this is again the intro. What songs will they sing at my funeral? I wondered. Already judging their choices. I just knew that this time the darkness was going to swallow me right up. I found myself imagining the entire service, fantasizing about it, debating which scripture should be read. I didn't list any family members as Singing or speaking. Because I thought that'd be too much to ask. I went as far as writing down my requests. All white flowers. Invitation only. Private open casket viewing prior to service. Closed casket service. Because I don't want people to be trying to take my picture to send a TMZ or some other nonsense. And then as we skip a little bit, she says toward the end of the section, I didn't have an exact plan for how I'd end my life, but those thoughts were quickly forming, and I was so ashamed.

[Quincy Zari]

Hmm. Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

She was really in the thick of it. And so we're introduced to not only her mind, but the fact that she was having suicidal ideation.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

She didn't know how, but she was like, there's no need for me to be here anymore. Yeah, that's a really sad place to be.

[Quincy Zari]

Sad place. And it's also. You're in, like, the deepest depths, but also still finding a need to have some sort of control over your life by still planning your funeral and expecting everything to go a specific way. Yeah. Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

When I think about Michelle, I've. I definitely recognize that she has been someone to talk about her mental health struggles. I remember when she was on Good Morning America talking about being depressed, and I was, like, really, really shocked because I was like, black people can feel that way.

[Quincy Zari]

Really? Oh, wow.

[Takari Leese]

That was not, like something that was, I don't know, like, talked about in my circle. And I have to say, like, when she was, like, talking about these things, I was in college even, maybe post college, but it was still a shock to me to hear her talking about depression and anxiety and things like that, because from my point of view, I was like, I only hear white people talking about these things. Only white people go to therapy. So it was even shocking to me at this point. And so that's where we kick off the book. And she again talks about thematically how she was so lucky that someone checked in with her and how she checked in with herself. She checked in with her therapist. And that's sort of the theme of the book, is this checking in and we go from there.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. I like how she sets up the idea of checking in with a beautiful hotel and she talks about her favorite hotel and the experience that she gets, and literally everything's perfect. Aside from that, though, she also talks about how when she does check into hotels, how she cleans them.

[Takari Leese]

Yes. This control thing again.

[Quincy Zari]

The control thing again. But also it made me feel just outside of the book itself, I'm, like, thinking about when I check in the hotels and the fact that she'll scrub the tub and it's like a layer of dirt comes off and that's absolutely foul.

[Takari Leese]

I love when she's like. And no disrespect to the people who work there. Cause I know they work really, really hard. But it's not clean enough.

[Quincy Zari]

Clean. But when she was talking about this beautiful hotel, honestly, like, when you go, it's straight up paradise. You never have to worry about anything. She never has to clean it. It's absolutely perfect. And as a reader, you're like, wait, where is this place? I need to know immediately. I might be able to afford at least one night. And then she lets us know that that's not true because there's.

[Takari Leese]

She gave us the Christian okie doke. Yeah, yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

There's no such thing as the perfect hotel because perfection doesn't exist. It was kind of like when you check into a hotel, how are you checking in with yourself? And checking in is essentially just kind of like writing things down, sitting with your emotions and really doing inventory about how you feel. Because it's not something that we or everybody always does. You get like sucked up in your own life. So I like that it was relatable.

[Takari Leese]

I like that too. I kind of want to get right into her and her relationship to music. Like a lot of great R B singers, she starts in the church. I think Beyonce and Kelly both started singing in church first. They all have that in common. But she's like talking about how it was actually very stressful for her the idea of being like a secular singer. And she actually did have the opportunity to lead a secular R and B group. But she was like, scared. What would people in the church world think of her? So she declined that opportunity. So she graduated from high school, went to college, Illinois State. And she was like majoring in, like, criminal justice, Studying criminal justice and accounting. She was gonna be a prosecutor, put bad guys in jail. And she was doing all of that wonderful stuff. But then she had a friend of hers who. Who was playing keyboard for Monica at the height of Monica's power.

[Quincy Zari]

Boy is Mine Monica era.

[Takari Leese]

Boy is Mine Monica 1999 Monica.

[Quincy Zari]

White sandals and all.

[Takari Leese]

Why would you say.

[Quincy Zari]

Things right?

[Takari Leese]

Can I say I thought this whole time she was much older. Because when she was like performing and the way she was dressed, the way she was styled, I thought Monica was like a 28 year old woman.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly.

[Takari Leese]

When she was like 14 years old.

[Quincy Zari]

Singing, and especially the way they did her hair. And her hair. Yeah. Everything about her Felt grown.

[Takari Leese]

Grown. But that's another topic for another time because I also thought the same thing about Beyonce. But we can talk about that later. But she offhandedly tells her friend, like, if they're looking for a backup singer, let me know. In terms of, like, Monica looking for a backup singer, her friend finds out that Monica, surprise, needs a backup singer, but she has to get to Atlanta for the audition. Michelle doesn't have any money, so this friend reaches out to one of their family members who just so happens to be a flight attendant.

[Quincy Zari]

You got that buddy?

[Takari Leese]

Got the buddy pass. She goes to Atlanta. Boom. They want Michelle.

[Quincy Zari]

People don't understand that because, like, you just said she was going to college studying criminal justice and like, her ascending into the music industry, it was all happenstance. Or I also say it's like a testimony to, like, if you just stay ready, when the opportunity comes, you're able to take it. Because she, like you said, she grew up in the church, obviously an amazing vocalist because growing up in the black church, being a gospel singer sets you up for life, literally. Brandi, Whitney, all of the amazing voices. Yes. Started in the church. And that's a conversation about nowadays people don't grow up in the church. And then we don't have vocalists like we used to. Because of that.

[Takari Leese]

Someone made a comment. They were like, you know what? I'm glad Christianity is on the rise because you people need to be in the church singing because what are you doing? No one harmonizes anymore.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly.

[Takari Leese]

No one can sing on the spot anymore. Get that religious trauma and make a hit.

[Quincy Zari]

Make a hit. And that's the thing, too, is, like, they would sing a harmony on the spot. I saw clip of them the other.

[Takari Leese]

Day singing that, like, Child of Destiny, independent beauty.

[Quincy Zari]

Yes. They're so cute together, but, yes, they're so sweet. The way that Michelle ascended into the music industry, just all happenstance and is able to make it to Atlanta to be able to sing, and everything fell into place, which is really beautiful.

[Takari Leese]

It is. And I love that she acknowledges this too. She, you know, says right place, right time. She says that a couple times in the book. And it's actually astonishing to me. That was her trajectory. Backup singer for Monica, at the height of Monica's power to being a member of one of the biggest girl groups of all time. Incredible. But we'll get to that.

[Christina Lopez]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. It's so weird to say this, but I thought a lot about what I was going to wear on set as I am shooting my film.

[Quincy Zari]

Because.

[Christina Lopez]

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[Takari Leese]

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[Christina Lopez]

Let's continue the conversation.

[Takari Leese]

So she's a backup singer for Monica, part of the Bee crew, staying in not the best hotels, making it work. The choreographer for Destiny's Child happens to be a dancer for Monica and she passes along Michelle's information because she knows that the group is looking for additional members. Latavia and Latoya at this point were out of the group because they felt like Matthew was taking too many of their profits. And it breaks my heart because I don't think these young ladies wanted to leave the group. They just wanted different management. But Matthew was like, well, if you're going to be ungrateful about it, just leave.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Which was devastating. And there was a lawsuit and they.

[Quincy Zari]

Settled and yeah, it was easy to villainize teenagers.

[Takari Leese]

Oh, absolutely.

[Quincy Zari]

And obviously as everyone grew up, we're seeing that these teenage girls were right and I hope that they were able to reconcile internally. Do you know if they were ever, like, at least Beyonce and the girls were able to reconcile.

[Takari Leese]

That's a really great question. I did see a clip of latoya and her children at one of the Cowboy Carter stop, and then she embraced Beyonce. But I've actually never seen latavia in those circles. So I don't know if there's any healing or any reconciliation there, but that really breaks my heart because knowing what we know about Matthew's infidelity and how he took advantage of his position within the group, he definitely not only, like, ruined their chance of, like, careers and still being members in Destiny's Child, but, like, he probably ruined a couple friendships.

[Quincy Zari]

Totally. Totally.

[Takari Leese]

So that's heartbreaking. But now I'm like, okay, well, if none of that happened, we wouldn't have gotten Michelle exactly in this group. So this choreographer, dancer passes along Michelle's information. She. Michelle gets a phone call from Tina. She goes to Houston to audition. And I want to say again, the rest is history. She becomes one of the members of Destiny's Child with Farrah, who, like, auditioned during the LA stop. But I want to go back because obviously I know, you know, this, that Tina has her own memoir. And she actually talks about meeting Michelle.

[Quincy Zari]

The mustache.

[Takari Leese]

The mustache.

[Quincy Zari]

Which is crazy.

[Takari Leese]

I was like, this is the star of this section. So Tina talks about meeting Michelle, being introduced to this person. And when Tina asked Michelle what she'd been up to, she's like, oh, I'm staying with my grandmother. I'm taking care of her. And of course, Tina was like, that's so sweet. And she's so young and already has so much responsibility, and. Can you send me some pictures of yourself? Michelle sends pictures, glamour shot mall pictures, Bad lighting, bad makeup, bad hair. And the makeup just emphasizes this mustache. Tina's like, I see the potential.

[Quincy Zari]

Honestly. I love that, though. I love that because, like, I think, like, even with my background working as a talent agent, like, being able to see through something that's like, you know, a physical thing that isn't conventional. And either being able to, in some cases, make that mustache work or being able to see that some people are like, you know, now. And so, no, I don't know. That's on Tina. I love her for that.

[Takari Leese]

She's got an eye.

[Quincy Zari]

She does. And I also want to speak to, like, I don't know. There's a lot of girls out there that have a mustache. Okay. You know, I'm not ashamed to say we have to get that we're lip waxed. Okay. It is what it is. So thank you, Michelle, for being representation.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah. And she was so cute about it. She's like, let's. Let's give her a little makeover so everyone can see what I see. She was like, we. That is definitely a mustache. We have to. It has to go. And she's like, but that's my boyfriend. And the esthetician was like, well, you got to kiss your boyfriend goodbye. Sorry. And then so she know she has this beautiful makeover. She gets her hair curled. Bump on the end. She meets Beyonce and Kelly again, because she actually met them at another point at a hotel lobby in Atlanta. But she meets them again. They give her a midriff top because, hello, that's the brand. Gotta show Belly. And she's like, let's practice some harmony. And they actually sing a gospel song. They sing Walk with me. And Tina notes that they just sounded perfect together. And Beyonce was like, this is the song that we'll audition you with. They audition in front of Matthew. She gets it. And then at the end, Tina makes this little comment about, like, oh, yeah. And then we rounded out the group with this fourth woman. Her name was Farah Franklin. She didn't make it, but I wish her the best. And she. And so I'm like, oh, well, grand opening, grand closing for Farrah. So, so funny. I love that. But, yeah, so she was in the group, and it's just so incredible how she was able to make that happen. I love it. Something else that's really funny is that as we're moving through this book again, this is not a typical biography. It is this Christian self help book. So she's giving advice, she's, you know, sharing Bible verses, and then every once in a while, she'll, like, drop a bomb. And for me, that happened really quickly when she was like, my real name is not Michelle. Did you know her real name is Tanitra and not Michelle?

[Quincy Zari]

I knew it wasn't Michelle, but I did not know it was Tanitra. I did not know her first name.

[Takari Leese]

I was like, that is crazy.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

I had no idea.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Which is like, Kelly's name is not Kelly.

[Quincy Zari]

It's not Kelly. Yeah. What is Kelly's name?

[Takari Leese]

It's like Calandria or something like that. But so Beyonce is like, the one with, like, Beyonce. And in my mind, I was like, why couldn't all three girls have these really unique and beautiful names?

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the thing is, like, I mean, they wanted it to be more commercial. Like, they were like, are people gonna look up to Michelle or Tanitra. And then her thought, too, was like, you know, people can barely understand my name. And people don't say it right. People say Tanitra. You know, they don't. And even though it's literally said like, it's spelled, like, it's not difficult. And she goes in to say that she ended up choosing that name or, like, going with it out of fear, you know, making a choice out of fear instead of, you know, checking in and thinking, like, why am I afraid? And not wanting to miss out on opportunity potentially by pushing buttons and standing up for saying something. And she talks about how her younger self, as Tanitra, was just this fearless girl who wasn't afraid to go after things that she wanted and wanted to be a prosecutor. And Michelle is someone who is full of fear. And it kind of goes back to just that naming of, you know, her stage self and the separation of, like, a stage name versus your. Your real personal self and how that gets lost when you're in the public eye. I thought that that was interesting, too.

[Takari Leese]

It actually broke my heart. And obviously, you know, she's writing this book, having spent years in therapy, gone to treatment centers, and a lot of checking in with herself. But she says, if I had the awareness to check in with myself before making that decision, the decision being Tanitra or Michelle, maybe she would have saved herself a great deal of wounds and inspired younger girls to be themselves all the time, where she had to sort of like, I'm Michelle now I'm Tanitra. Now I'm Michelle. I'm Tanitra. Where she could have brought her whole self to the stage and to her circle of friends and to her family.

[Quincy Zari]

And like you said, too, why couldn't Destiny's Child been in a group of three girls with unique names instead of just one? And obviously not obviously, but it's safe to assume, like, they wanted to be a crossover hit into mainstream fame, which means white America. And white America has a hard time with names that aren't Anglicized. So only having one person versus three, I can see why the choice was made, but it is unfortunate.

[Takari Leese]

Totally. And, you know, I have to say, just because, like, we're two black people talking to each other, we're not Ashley.

[Quincy Zari]

Or Marie, you know?

[Takari Leese]

Absolutely not. So, like, you. You're Quincy's Ari, and I'm. And I'm Takara. Like, probably names that people. I'm a mess this up. Like, I'm sure someone has said this to us at some point in our lives. But it just kind of devastates me that the sort of environment that Michelle Tanitra was around was a black environment. Black stylists, black members of the group, a black manager in a black city, Houston. And to be posed that question by probably someone black is sort of devastating. The respectability politics of it all. Don't you want to be liked? Don't you want to be mainstream? Pull your pants up. Don't say ain't kind of thing. Tanitra is ghetto. Like that's the subtext of that. You have a ghetto name. You should be Michelle. Yeah, that's. And I want to be clear to the listeners, that's not in the book. That's what I'm.

[Quincy Zari]

That's the subtext inferring.

[Takari Leese]

But that is the subtext of her name, which is devastating. She goes on to continue talking about labels because this idea of Tanitra is the label. Michelle is the label. She goes on to talk about how she shares a label with someone else in Hollywood, which is the other Michelle Williams.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. Of Dawson's Creek fame.

[Takari Leese]

Of Dawson's Creek fame. And something that she talks about in the book is that whenever other Michelle Williams does something, people will tag her on social media and she'll be like, I didn't do that. I didn't say that. I didn't win that.

[Quincy Zari]

Like, please, please do your due diligence.

[Takari Leese]

Or even notice that when you've tagged me, the little avatar is a black.

[Quincy Zari]

Photo's not the same. Yeah, it's not the same.

[Takari Leese]

And I want to bring up, because again, Christian self help book. I'm going to keep saying that because the lens throughout what we're talking about this book is that this is a Christian self help book is that she notes that again, she gets confused with the other Michelle Williams. And I think there was at one point where Michelle Williams won a Golden Globe for a television series like a limited TV show. And when she went up to receive the award, she used her air time to talk about the rights of women and girls and the right to choose. So we're talking about abortion here, which is probably something that our Michelle Williams perhaps doesn't agree with.

[Quincy Zari]

Probably. But we don't know.

[Takari Leese]

We don't know. But she says something really interesting during this section where she's like, oh, the other Michelle Williams will go on award shows and say things that I do not agree with. And I was like, what don't you agree with Michelle?

[Quincy Zari]

Oh, yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And then she'll have, you know, then my mom will reach out to me about this, and I have to be like, no, no, no, Mom, I didn't say that. That was the other Michelle Williams.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And then she caveats it by saying, like, michelle, I think you're fabulous, and you've earned the right to get on any award show stage and say whatever it is that you want to say. And I respect you. And I'm like, okay, cool. Now we're doing that. Like celebrity pr.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Don't find controversy in this thing.

[Quincy Zari]

But, yeah. By not outwardly saying anything, but it says a lot. Yes.

[Takari Leese]

I want to talk about her first time doing therapy or why she got a therapist.

[Quincy Zari]

Before you say that, though, because it's like, oh, okay. We talk about Destiny's Child. She's getting into the mix, and. Because she talks about how being busy to not really think about how she's feeling.

[Takari Leese]

Yes.

[Quincy Zari]

And, like, how work can be a coping mechanism because you use work or being busy all the time as a way to cope with reality. So it's like, if I'm always working, if I'm always traveling, I'm always out in the streets with my friends. I'm never at home being introspective or alone with my thoughts.

[Takari Leese]

I'm really glad you bring that up because she talks about that many times during the book. And it's how we get into trouble later down the line as well. I do think, though, she calls this out specifically after this story, but she's able to be like, oh, I recognize now that I have my therapist in my life that this is what I was doing. Chapter two. We're solidly in Destiny's Child. Money's coming in, we're traveling, we have stylists. She's filled with gratitude. And I do believe, also, and to your point about work, she's also using gratitude as a crutch as well.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

I absolutely 100% believe she's like, well, I'm so grateful. This isn't a problem. And she's gratituded herself to the point where she cannot even recognize that she's in trouble. Because she's like, none of that matters because I'm grateful. This is all great. And I'm grateful, and there are no problems. Let us pray.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So now we're there. But she talks about hiring a friend. She hires his friend to be her assistant. And she makes this point to be like, oh, I don't know if this is women's intuition or paranoia, but she says to the friend, don't do me wrong. Just do me right, and we will Have a successful working relationship. I'll be good to you. And this friend. She calls this friend Nathan. I don't know if that's the real name. She protects a lot of people in this book. He was doing a great job. He was thoughtful, he was sharp. And then one day she gets an email from Nathan that is not the work email that he was assigned. It's an email from. She calls her competitor and we don't know who that competitor is, but she was like, he left me, didn't say anything, and then sends a work email on behalf of the quote, unquote competitor. And not only was she sad, she was absolutely filled with rage.

[Christina Lopez]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back.

[Quincy Zari]

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[Christina Lopez]

Let's continue the conversation.

[Quincy Zari]

And it opened up these feelings of how she felt inadequate, you know, because Destiny's Child was already an established group and then to already feel inadequate in a lot of ways and then to also feel that reinforcement by her assistant who the person who she trusted her friend and like, asked them deliberately not to do this and they did. It was like that burst of anger was, you know, as you know, like anger is a secondary emotion under anger is actually sadness and fear and all these like other things that are a little bit more vulnerable. And so she felt sad and unworthy and abandoned and she was so upset. And her mom was like, you need help?

[Takari Leese]

Yeah, it was her mom. She was like, I did what anyone would do in this situation. I told on him. I told on him to my mom, which was a very funny line. And the way she does in the audiobook is just perfect. I'm like, this is why you're an actress. But the way she was recounting the story to her mother, her mother was like, you need to speak to someone.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Because Nathan's actions were Nathan's actions, however poor they may be. But your reaction to the actions is a bit.

[Quincy Zari]

It's big.

[Takari Leese]

This is big.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And I just. I wanna take a step back and ask you, what do you think about her mother being the one to suggest therapy to her?

[Quincy Zari]

Her reaction had to have been huge. She doesn't get into her childhood and, like, instances in her childhood that much. You know, a lot of our journeys in therapy is all about healing that inner child and listening to that inner child. So we as adults, you know, can move through and move past and handle big situations and big emotions. She never really gets into that grit and the reason behind her big emotions from childhood, out of the respect of her parents. But one could assume, because she also grew up in the church and, you know, boomer parents back in the day, I'd like to believe that they didn't really give her that much space. And it was just pray about it. And so for her mom to be the one to say that you need help, and especially in the early 2000s, before we even got into. Deep into therapy, people still calling therapist shrinks back then, it had to have been a huge reaction. And I was actually surprised it was her mom to be the first one to say that. What did you think?

[Takari Leese]

I was also shocked. Again, a black mother who's deeply religious, who probably, like you, like you mentioned, does the. Pray about it, seek him, all this other language. Exactly. You need to go to church more. You're not connecting with the Holy Spirit. All these words, you know, I was shocked. And it made me realize that Michelle was hurting in a really deep way. And I think that as a lot of black women, a lot of women, period, know that when you spend a lot of time being agreeable, which Michelle was as this new member of Destiny Sha, she didn't rock the boat, changed her name, did whatever they said, spent a lot of time being agreeable, spent a lot of time suppressing emotions, you don't just feel anger, you feel a lot of rage. And you feel a lot of rage towards really small things because you've suppressed the rage and the anger for really big times.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly. And that's the thing.

[Takari Leese]

And for a long time, exactly what.

[Quincy Zari]

You'Re Saying, like, when you suppress all of your emotions, you have huge reactions to small things that aren't even related to the thing that actually is bothering you.

[Takari Leese]

No.

[Quincy Zari]

Someone could cut you a piece of pizza in the wrong way. And that's a problem if you're suppressing all of your feelings for too long.

[Takari Leese]

Yep. In my mind, I was like, oh, I wonder if Tanitra was the thing that she's been mad about this whole time. And then Nathan was like, I got a peace out. And she's like, nathan. And it's like, no, it's been all these things. You know, it's the way you grew up and your parents anger in their marriage and, like, you feeling like you're the other girl in Destiny's Child. But, like, this was the moment that made you lose your cool. And she, like, lucky for her, she did check in with her mom about it.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, she checked in with somebody.

[Takari Leese]

She didn't do anything with it. So now she listens to her mother, which of course she would. She's a good girl. She listens to her mother. She gets a therapist. And what is interesting about this is that this reads as if she just finds the therapist right away and starts digging in. When I feel like a lot of people, it takes them a couple times.

[Quincy Zari]

To find the right person.

[Takari Leese]

To find the right person.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, to find the right person and then to also feel comfortable because, like, if you spent your whole life not talking about how you feel and pressing everything down.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

It doesn't just happen. And we might come back to this later, but she even talks about the difference between transparency and vulnerability. You're not digging into it because you're able to tell them what's going on, but you're not able to be vulnerable and dig in deep to the why of it all.

[Takari Leese]

Oh, hell, yeah. We're coming back to that. So she meets Sandy and she calls it excavating. They're excavating these hardened places built around her heart. And she says she sort of uncovers something that she's known to be true, and that's the fact that she has depression. And this is on page 29 of checking in. And I'd like to read this. And it's her views on depression. She says one message that doesn't get shared enough is that depression can hit anybody. It hits male, female, upper class, middle class, lower class, no class, every race, and every spiritual background. It can seek you out and find you anywhere, with or without, quote, unquote, justifiable cause. What I mean by that is that depression comes in all forms. Sometimes it's chemical, sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's situational. Sometimes it's because of an unmet spiritual need. Sometimes it's because your husband left or you can't get pregnant or you got fired. Depression is an assassin. It acts like a silent, slow killer and if you don't deal with it, it can swallow you up. And that's what she was going through in the midst of a Cinderella story, so to speak. So she's sharing that with us and letting us know that she's doing the work. She's talking about her childhood, she's excavating, she's finding out about these classic symptoms of depression. She's reading her Bible. But then she says it's still not enough. She says it's still not enough to move the needle because she's still angry and she's still distrusting. And then she talks about Anthony.

[Quincy Zari]

Oh my gosh, this one was sad.

[Takari Leese]

Quincy. Why?

[Quincy Zari]

Well, it's just embarrassing. I don't know, I feel like every, and maybe not everybody, but a lot of people have a crash out story. And I feel like she kind of mentions too like feelings of abandonment, not feeling enough and how that comes up in relationships and having this cycle of dating. Men who don't want to commit to her will always say, like, you make someone a great wife one day but like just won't make her the wife. And they'll commit enough to date her but not do more than that. And so when she met Anthony, she thought because he's a good man, God fearing man. Wasn't he also an artist?

[Takari Leese]

Yes, he's a musician. Like she said, he played like everything self talk.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So she talks about, you know, she's been dating Anthony for a while and Anthony was in LA for work and he invites her to come out to visit him. So she's living in Chicago. So she gets on a plane, rents a car and drives to where he's staying. And then she sort of stops. The recording is like, ladies, I know this is a different type of book, but don't ever fly out to see a man.

[Quincy Zari]

Do not get flew out. I don't believe in getting flew out.

[Takari Leese]

You don't believe in getting flew out?

[Quincy Zari]

I think it depends. I think everything is nuanced. Takara and I think if you're gonna get flew out, you have to know that man. Well, I feel like some people get flew out and that's the first time they're seeing them in person. That's Actually dangerous and crazy. Cause you're going to a city where it's their city. You don't know nobody. And now you're to going completely reliant on this man. Okay, fair be completely reliant on a man. That's crazy. So I think like, if you're gonna be flew out, have your things on lock. But I think it just depends. How do you feel about getting flew out?

[Takari Leese]

Well, I've never been flew out, but, you know, anything could happen. No, it can't. I'm in a relationship.

[Quincy Zari]

Have your person go over there and then have them flew you.

[Takari Leese]

That is so funny. I will talk to him about that tonight. That's like a whole other level of role playing. Can you buy me a plane ticket?

[Quincy Zari]

No, that's.

[Takari Leese]

Note to self. No. I think from my perspective, I get where she's coming from in her mind. She's like, don't do that. Do never go see a man. Don't go to his place. Don't like, be at his, like, beck and call or on his turf. You lose all upper hand. If anyone is flying out, make him fly out to see you. Make all the logistics his problem. The renting of the car, the getting the tickets, the finding out where you stay, or like, if you don't want him to stay with you, getting a place to stay. But like, don't stress yourself out. You're the prize.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly. And then you get to have a little staycation in your town if you feel comfortable.

[Takari Leese]

Exactly. And you're like, let me show you around. And then you're like, now be done with you.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly, exactly.

[Takari Leese]

So that was her perspective, but she didn't take her own advice, obviously. So she gets her own plane ticket, she rents the car. She's vulnerable, and I think she's already scared that she's already put herself in this position because she's like, is he gonna choose me again? So she shows up to his door, knocks on the door, he doesn't respond. And she proceeds to lose her shit. Because she was already in agreement with the idea that Anthony is up to no good or has somebody else on the side or is stringing her along or doesn't want to go public with her.

[Quincy Zari]

He forgot.

[Takari Leese]

Either way, he forgot or he forgot. So all these things are going through my. And the more she's out there, the louder the knocks get, the more she starts to yell, the more she starts to insult. Finally he just opens the door and was like, sorry, I didn't answer the door. I was asleep.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And in my Mind, I was like, there is no way that for a second before you opened that door and was like, I was just asleep. That you weren't just standing in front of the door listening to her do this. And when the door finally opened, she was like, walking away and he came out to, like, finally get her.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And then in her mind, she was like, oh, I can just tell him I was teasing with all that beating on the door and hollering and wasn't that funny?

[Quincy Zari]

Ha ha, ha, ha ha.

[Takari Leese]

But obviously she didn't do that. And she said the relationship was never the same.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And by the time they both said their goodbyes, she said he had taken a step back from her emotionally.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Which, ah, I feel confirms her worst fear.

[Quincy Zari]

It confirmed her worst fear. And like you said, she had already bad anxiety about, he's cheating, he doesn't want to be seen with me. Because as she had mentioned, like, there's a lot of people who she dated who just wouldn't even go out in public with her. You know, it was a confirmation bias situation. And I am sad that they didn't at least get to have a conversation to express. Like, that really made me uncomfortable. And she didn't get to have that, like, at least closure in any kind of way. Or at least she didn't say that in the book.

[Takari Leese]

I think she. She did say that she apologized to him.

[Quincy Zari]

Okay.

[Takari Leese]

Afterward.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

At some point in the book, she goes, oh, remember when I talked about Anthony and I said I like, you know, beat on the door? Well, that was the only time I sort of like, crashed out around Anthony. In the section about Anthony, she sort of opens up about her family again. So we get to that biography piece and she talks about how the marriage between her folks was rocky and sometimes violent. But she didn't go into much detail. She's like, that's their marriage, that's their story. But this is how it affected me as a child and how it is affecting me as a grownup. And basically she was just like, my home was not a peaceful place. There was a lot of tension. And I can only say that my parents did the best that they could with the information that they had.

[Quincy Zari]

She didn't go into too much detail with that one argument that may or may not been physical, but, like, it's quite obvious that at least there was a lot of verbal. Because that was something that Michelle talked about. She, like, she had a mouth.

[Takari Leese]

Yes.

[Quincy Zari]

And so a lot of, like, yelling back and forth probably happened because that's how she went about conversations or, like, disagreements in her romantic relationships.

[Takari Leese]

Totally. And she often thought to herself as a kid, like, one day my mom is going to get so sick of this and just leave us.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So instead of being like, oh, they're gonna work on it, or they're gonna get some healing, she's like, no, this situation is bad, and the only thing to fix it is abandonment.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. To her anxiety and fear.

[Takari Leese]

And I think we see that that's, like, foreshadowing for her relationship with Chad, which we'll get to. But first, I wanna talk about Destiny's Child and how she joins them in 2000. She auditions for the group in January. She's shooting the say My Name video February of 2000. And then they sort of announced that they're retiring in 2005.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So Michelle really didn't have that full Destiny's Child experience, obviously, as someone who sort of, like, got put into the group, Whereas Kelly and Beyonce had been members of Destiny's Child or some variation of that girl group with different names.

[Quincy Zari]

For most of their life lives since they were children.

[Takari Leese]

Since they were legit children. So it came as a surprise to her when it ended. Although she said she should have known because the album was called Destiny Fulfill.

[Quincy Zari]

I didn't even beat that until she said it. I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. The signs were. They were screaming that it was over.

[Takari Leese]

No way. When that album came out, I was like, you guys, I think Beyonce wants to go solo.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Because her album did really well. They're like, no way. They'd never do that. Actually, Michelle was the first one to put out a solo project.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Beyonce did Dangerously in Love in 2003.

[Quincy Zari]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Takari Leese]

Not really sure when Kelly did hers, but love all Kelly's solo work.

[Quincy Zari]

Me too. Stole Was. I loved that song.

[Takari Leese]

Stole. Oh, my God. And then, of course, the duet with Nelly. Historic. Historic duet.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. Excel.

[Takari Leese]

Now, don't talk about her. She didn't know.

[Quincy Zari]

She didn't know. She didn't know.

[Takari Leese]

She traveled the world. She can hit those harmonies. But no one's ever made her, like, put together an Excel spreadsheet. They just handed her that phone and said, text your man. We're referring to the video Kelly and Nelly when they're singing. What is the name of that song? Dilemma.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. So back to Destiny's Child ending. And she kept thinking that, oh, no, this is just a pause. We're gonna get back together. We're going on hiatus. And then they were not just going on hiatus. And so it was really hard for her because she wasn't ready and she didn't really know what to do next. You talked about her going into her own music and then the choice to do gospel, and she really wanted to make sure that people didn't feel like gospel happened to her. Because, you know, in the secular world, like, when someone decides to make Christian music, it's, ugh, I guess I'll do that. But, like, gospel and Christianity is something that's, like, close to Michelle's heart. So she was more than excited to do a gospel album, and she had success on that side of the coin. And choosing to do secular music, I think, was a little bit trickier. When her music flopped, she talked to people about how can she pivot her career. And then she talked about doing a bedline, a bed and bath line. And people were like, you were crazy for that. And yes, she brings this up, and it's a theme throughout the book. She should have had better people in her corner 100%, because, yes, now everybody has a damn bedline. Okay?

[Takari Leese]

Everyone.

[Quincy Zari]

Everyone has a line. If you're a celebrity, you know, singer, actress, whatever, you are doing some sort of sponsored ad, something, you have your own beauty line. Michelle, she would ate that up.

[Takari Leese]

I want her to do it. I want her to do it now. And I'm like, michelle, I don't care where you take it. QVC, HSN, TikTok, shop, you do what you want to do. You have multiple streams of income. Make it work. And I hate. There were people on her team that consistently made her feel less than.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly.

[Takari Leese]

Again, another theme in the book, whether it's being called Tanitra or backing up even further. When she was in Destiny's Child, doing this world tour, making videos, I guess she spoke to someone on her team and she said to them, I think I am depressed. She said that. I think I'm depressed. And they responded, what do you have to be depressed about? You're on a world tour. You just signed a multimillion dollar deal. You have your own Barbie.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And then she goes, oh, well, I guess they're right. Maybe I'm just tired.

[Quincy Zari]

And that's the thing is, like you in this book, she talks about, obviously, checking in, checking in with yourself, but checking in with other people. And if you don't have the right people in your life, they're going to lead you down the wrong path, reinforce the wrong messages. Being around people and the people that you surround yourself with, specifically in your inner circle, as I like to say, the inner circle of Homies. The circle of homies.

[Takari Leese]

Inner circle of homies.

[Quincy Zari]

It's vital. It's vital to a good life.

[Takari Leese]

It's so important. And I love that. That's also a theme in this book. And she talks about that really heavy when she's talking about her fiance and the demise of that engagement. And we're so close to talking about that. We really are. But before we do that, we have to talk about Michelle's most embarrassing moment.

[Quincy Zari]

Oh, my gosh.

[Takari Leese]

Beyonce, Kelly and Michelle were on BET's 106 in Park. This was a live television program that ran in direct competition with MTV's Total Request Live, which really bugged me.

[Quincy Zari]

In the book, she said the wrong name.

[Takari Leese]

She said, yeah, called it Total Recall.

[Quincy Zari]

Wait, that's the movie? Or, like, total. I literally googled it. I was like, wait, I thought.

[Takari Leese]

I know. She made me think that I've been wrong. I was like, is this Mandela?

[Quincy Zari]

I was like, so the monocle.

[Takari Leese]

So he was. He did die in the 80s. No. So I literally googled it as soon as she said it. Because again, audiobook. I was like, they let you print that and say it out loud incorrectly. Again, inner circle of homies, no one's really having your back.

[Quincy Zari]

It's Total Request Live still to this day.

[Takari Leese]

To this day. Till publishing day, they're not having it back.

[Quincy Zari]

Anyway, Michelle, call us up. We're good friends. Okay?

[Takari Leese]

I'm going to DM you right now and be like, let me be in the inner circle. I would. I would have never let this happen if I read the book. But again, bets 106 and park ran in direct competition with MTV's Total Request Live. They counted down videos. They had celeb cameos and performances. And it just so happened that Destiny's child was on bets 106 and park to perform Soldier. Love the song, love the video. Important to me. And this was supposed to be like a simple step down the stairs, hit the choreo, hit the vocals, go to the couch, talk about the making of, right? And they are barely into the song. They're walking down the steps. And one of Michelle's pant legs, by the way, she's always wearing pants. She's notorious for saying she doesn't like her legs. Anyway. One of her pant legs gets caught in her heel. She tumbles. She gets back up so quick, fast.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And in her mind, she's like, well, you know, there's probably multiple cameras. They cut away to the audience or they, like, did a close up on Beyonce or Kelly as they notoriously do. So it's fine.

[Quincy Zari]

They sure didn't.

[Takari Leese]

They did not. It was one cam. It stayed on her in the fall. And then Beyonce and Kelly sort of look to. To give her a side eye to make sure she's okay. She hops up and they hit that harmony, and it was devastating.

[Quincy Zari]

And this is the beginning of the YouTube era too. So it was everywhere.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah. One of the first things to go viral to me and my inner circle, because we all would go to the computer lab. We went to yahoo.com put in this new thing called YouTube. And we watched that repeatedly. We could not believe that happened.

[Quincy Zari]

And she talks about how we still kind of know this to this day. Destiny's Child was known for being on point. They had never had a flub up until that point. And 100% to this day, Beyonce is always on point. And the thing is, too, when she fell, they typically had worn the outfit like a rehearsal, like, go into the performance without having tried on the clothes first. And then from then on, they always did a dress rehearsal. So nothing like that ever happened again.

[Takari Leese]

I want to actually kind of fight you on that a little bit, because although Beyonce is great, she does mess up. Yeah, she messes up. But when Beyonce does it and she gets back up, people like, ugh, Consummate professional. But Michelle does it. And they're like, poor Michelle.

[Quincy Zari]

Because it reinforces this whole idea that Michelle's the other girl. And then. And so, aw, poor Michelle. And it's always the joke. It becomes the joke that Michelle's not good enough as the other girls. And there's a push. Poor michelle.com. i remember the Facebook group. Poor Michelle.

[Takari Leese]

There was a Facebook group?

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. Because I didn't know about the website. I only knew about the Facebook group. So when she told me in the book there was a website, oh, I.

[Takari Leese]

Was like, that's crazy. I remember the Tumblr.

[Quincy Zari]

Oh, my God.

[Takari Leese]

Because I was a Tumblr girl and I didn't follow it, but sometimes I would go to it and I would.

[Quincy Zari]

Have a little giggle. I remember actually someone called me in back that in the day and was like, this isn't cool. Like, she's great. Don't be like that. And I was like, you're right.

[Takari Leese]

Wow. They did a call in. In the early two thou.

[Quincy Zari]

In the early two thou. And for Michelle, again, it opened up these wounds of her being not good enough or like, you know, not very talented. And she shouldn't. She doesn't deserve to be in Destiny's Child. And that's. Her anxieties are given fuel, which she knows to be true. You know, if she were checking in, like, no, I am a talented vocalist. I am a talented dancer artist. Yes, I earned my spot to be here. But I 100%, you know, can see, obviously, how all of the realities of the world can be easily silenced when millions of people are going in on you and making fun of your most embarrassing moment. And it can be relived every single day. I couldn't imagine it.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah, it's interesting how, like, your truth becomes like truth with a lowercase t. And everyone else's is like truth with a capital T. And you're like, oh, this must be correct. And I'm glad we brought that up, because now we have this sort of foundation of dysfunctional relationships, the depression. Her being in this global superstar group and working all the time and not really taking care of and checking in with herself the way she wants to do. She's sort of living in gratitude, but not living in the reality that she maybe needs some help. And she is desperate for love and affection, but not really sure how to make that all work. And that all comes to a head. Spring 2017, when she meets Chad.

[Quincy Zari]

I want to say, before we get into Chad and the story of Michelle and Chad, did you watch the reality show?

[Takari Leese]

I did.

[Quincy Zari]

Okay.

[Takari Leese]

Did you?

[Quincy Zari]

I didn't at the time. I was following the shade room. I'm no longer following the shade Room, but I am free of the shackles. But I will say that for the listeners that don't know Chad is white.

[Takari Leese]

And she doesn't say that.

[Quincy Zari]

She doesn't. Oh, she never says it in the book.

[Takari Leese]

She never says, I was dating a white man.

[Quincy Zari]

Okay. It's 2025. But for people who don't realize it, interracial relationships are still taboo to this day.

[Takari Leese]

Very much so.

[Quincy Zari]

And on both sides, everyone makes it a thing.

[Takari Leese]

Everybody.

[Quincy Zari]

And so for her to never mention it is kind of cray, because I remember the chatter online. So to read her perspective on the relationship in the book, based on me never watching the show, but all of what everyone was saying about it was interesting because she took a lot of, I guess, the fault. And for people that watch the show, yeah, it was Chad's fault.

[Takari Leese]

You know what's really funny is that when I watched the show, it was Chad's fault to me.

[Quincy Zari]

Okay.

[Takari Leese]

But actually really enjoyed Michelle as a member of Destiny's Child. She was my favorite because I thought she was so funny, because she is. And I love. I love A funny girl. I do. And I'm like, she's here to clown, and I love that. And she made me. Made all the. She made the girls laugh and the crew laugh. And I'm like, she's just such a light. And I remember. I think this was like, MTV's the Diary of. Do you remember those? The Diary. So it was the diary of Destiny's Child. And this is when they were on their world tour and they were in Japan, and they were tired, and then they were gonna eat something, and maybe Beyonce and Kelly didn't want to eat it. And Michelle was like, come on, girls. We gotta expand our taste bud horizons. And the way she said it was just so funny. And I'm like. Like, I'm riding for this girl. I want her to be successful. No matter how many times I visited for Michelle Tumblr, I really liked her. And so when I was watching the show, I was super curious because I'm like, oh, I just. I want her to have love. You know, Kelly was engaged some football player guy, and then Beyonce has Jay Z. Like, I want Michelle to have somebody. Like, I want there to be some sort of, like, equality in a group. In that way. I don't want the poor Michelle to be on the side of. Like, she doesn't have anybody romantically. So when she got Chad, I was like, okay, who is this fella? I did watch the show. And then I was like, I hate this guy. But that's because I wasn't aware of what was going on. And we'll get into that. So Michelle meets chad, spring of 2017. She. She's at this, like, Christian conference, and she actually sees Chad preach. He's a pastor. I think he was the chaplain for the Pittsburgh Steelers at one point. So, like, some sports chaplain guy, he bounces around in that way. So she sees him, she's introduced to him, and one of her friends was like, oh, you two would make a really cute couple. And she acknowledges that she thought Chad was cute, but was like, oh, my God, guys, stop. Why are you even saying this?

[Quincy Zari]

This is.

[Takari Leese]

We're in the house of the Lord or whatever. Chad obviously thought she was cute as well, is introduced to her, asks her for her number under the guise of, like, trying to get her ride back to the airport or some such nonsense. He texts her and is like, hey, I'm gonna be in your city. We should connect.

[Quincy Zari]

And she was like, okay. Doesn't respond, doesn't respond.

[Takari Leese]

And in the audiobook, again, this is where it gets really funny, because she's like, ladies, don't you hate it when a man is like, nebulous when it comes to plans? Like, what does connect mean? Yeah, like, if you want coffee, say you want coffee. If you want dinner, say you want dinner. And I know she says it in the book, but like in the audiobook, just. It's so funny.

[Quincy Zari]

It's just like full personality.

[Takari Leese]

She's like, and this is a different book. This is a different book. And I'm like, michelle, whatever book you're talking about, please write it because I am enjoying your dating tips. She's hilarious. So she pays Chad dust, doesn't respond to the message because she's like, I don't know what he's talking about. Connect over what? But then she sees him on Instagram. He's like, by the water having a good time and his feet are out. So she messages him. You just got your toes out in that picture.

[Quincy Zari]

Wholeheartedly. Was like shooting her shot 100%.

[Takari Leese]

She was like, let me put the ball.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. She's like, let me show you how it's done.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah. And it worked. They started dating. They're going here, they're going there, and they're like dating. Seriously. These are God fearing people. They probably already had a conversation about marriage and children and they're older, so they're like, okay, let me go ahead and lock in.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So they start dating. Spring 2017. By spring 2018, he's already proposed. What did you think of that proposal?

[Quincy Zari]

So maybe I'm a hater, I guess, but I, I thought it was sweet because she thought it was sweet, but I did think it was kind of weird.

[Takari Leese]

Whoa. Hot take alert.

[Quincy Zari]

Hot take alert. But I get it, because it's like, this is something that's important to her. And I do agree with this. It's like when you marry someone, you are also marrying their family. Like, having connection to their family is a big deal. And so her finding a partner that was going to be close with her family meant something to her. So for Chad, what he did was he went to Illinois, met with her family, met with her cousins, met with her uncles and aunts and everyone in this video just like hanging out with them. They were like keying in the video. And then eventually, you know, she puts the iPad down. He's down on one knee, and so she was boohooing, crying, and thought it was sweet. But I, I don't know, I thought it was weird.

[Takari Leese]

That is not your ideal proposal.

[Quincy Zari]

No, it's not.

[Takari Leese]

I'm in the camp of if she likes it, I love it.

[Quincy Zari]

I guess it's just like. That was like, huh, that's weird. But I forgot, like, oh, yeah, he went there and asked him for permission. He asked every single person. So when she said that, I was like, okay, it makes more sense now because I'm like, why isn't his family in this? Why is it just them? And I felt like, is he pandering to these people? And so that's also, again, the type was like, I wish you would kind of would have, like, talked about racial dynamic, too, because I felt like with the story of her being hesitant in the beginning, could that have lent itself to some sort of hesitance?

[Takari Leese]

You know? It did. She's like, I'm a black R and B slash gospel singer, and I am going to be dating publicly white person name Chad. Name Chad. And the Internet had a field day with that.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly. And so I guess it felt weird, but I'm. I'm glad she loved it. Michelle, don't hate me.

[Takari Leese]

And Mari, I want to say plainly, Quincy hated the proposal, but she's really glad that Michelle liked the proposal, because she even. She even says that it's still one of the most beautiful things that anyone's ever done for her.

[Quincy Zari]

He knew her.

[Takari Leese]

He saw her.

[Quincy Zari]

Exactly. And that's what's the most important. I just thought it was weird. Just also because it was only a year, and also after they had proposed, I think it was like. Like he wanted to get married within, like, four months of their proposal. And, yeah, what also bothered me, he goes, I want to marry you in the time it takes for you to pick out a shoe. Okay.

[Takari Leese]

That's why I didn't like him in the show, because he would say little snide things. In my mind, I was like, I don't think you like her, actually.

[Quincy Zari]

I don't think so either.

[Takari Leese]

You may love her, and you may think that this is going to work and that she's the one, but you literally don't respect her.

[Quincy Zari]

And I didn't like that because I was like, so why are you gonna be with a baddie? And then when you see the BTS of what it's like to be with a baddie, that's a problem. So you want to be with someone, nails on, hair done, outfit slaying, and then it's a problem that it took a minute to choose the shoes. I'm. Yeah, I don't like that. I think it's weird to think it's hater behavior. It's nagging. I'm always side eyeing someone who's just gonna want to rush into a marriage that quickly. It's one thing to be engaged after a year, but then to be like, okay, two months, we're gonna get married now. It was suspicious to me that he wanted to rush it.

[Takari Leese]

I agree.

[Quincy Zari]

And she felt inadequate. She felt like her anxiety throughout that relationship was like, well, I don't read scripture enough to be with the pastor's wife. I'm not ready to be a wife. And like, she knew that she had a lot of work to do, but she also felt like she was being negative by saying, we need to take our time. And I, because I didn't watch the show, my assumption was that Chad was the person that made her feel bad. Chad was the person. I'm gonna blame him.

[Takari Leese]

I blame them both.

[Quincy Zari]

Michelle took accountability. You know what I mean? That's why I'm not blaming her.

[Takari Leese]

You're so funny. Michelle did take accountability. I thought Chad was a piece of work in the show. And there was one scene in particular where I think he had front row seats. The baddie factory. She was getting ready for something. I'm like, bro, like you're seeing this. You know what I mean? Like, you should be thanking God you were with a global superstar and you are in the baddie factory and you're impatient. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. And then he, they did a quick back and forth. Michelle said something, he said something, she said something. And then he goes, did you take your meds today?

[Quincy Zari]

I hate that.

[Takari Leese]

Whilst the cameras were rolling.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah. And that's the thing, people. That's the thing is that Chad didn't understand depression. And so your partner's supposed to be someone who obviously is not your therapist. And like, you shouldn't be completely relying on your partner to get you through mental health struggles. But also they should be a safe place for you and not to be someone that's condescending with comments like that because it's not helpful.

[Takari Leese]

It's not helpful at all. Especially to Michelle. Especially to Michelle because she's already having doubts as soon as he put on that ring that he spent 10 years saving up for. Not for her, but just for the wife or whatever.

[Quincy Zari]

And I don't like that either.

[Takari Leese]

You don't like that either? No.

[Quincy Zari]

And that's the thing. It's like, I think also too, and I'm guilty of this up to a certain point because we live in a society to where marriage is everything. Like, like it's almost. It's kind of like those women, you know, who have a Pinterest board of what their wedding's gonna look like, and they just need a man to fulfill their fantasy. It's not about marrying that man, someone they love. It's about them being able to get married. And I think those are two different things. And I think that's kind of problematic when you're more so in love with the institution of something instead of the person that's in front of you. And I think people get too weird about conflating the party and the symbols of marriage than actually the relationship that they have with someone. And I think that. That, to me, with Chad, that being something that's he held so highly actually was a red flag, because he didn't really care about who it was. In some ways, he just was looking to check a box. And I think it's always worrisome when people want to check a box. He's gonna get married with that ring that he was saying up for. You know what I mean, with that money, something for someone. I don't know. I just think it's weird. It's the same thing as the Pinterest board.

[Takari Leese]

He was ready to be a husband, and he's like, okay, Michelle will be the wife. Yeah, I can't argue with you.

[Quincy Zari]

And I also think that with the show, Michelle talks about the problem of, like, knowing when. It's the difference between your intuition and your anxiety. And that's something that I have issues with to this day, because it's like, as people, as black women, you're told that your feelings don't matter, and then. And you put that down, you're let your anxieties become louder than, like, your gut. And she didn't want to do this show, and she said it. And when she said it, she knew it wasn't anxiety because it just felt, you know, something with ease. When it's anxiety, it comes from fear, you know? So you do know the difference deep down. And they went through with it anyways. And a part of me feels like he liked those aspects of Michelle. He liked the limelight. He wanted to be grander. I think it's cool to want an empire with your partner, I guess. But I feel like, in a way, didn't hear her initially. And so down the line, it was too late when they both realized they didn't want to do it.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah. And I still feel really bad. Like, she seems pretty healed from this situation, but, like, reading it, I was like, oh, my gosh. This is so much the. The quick Courtship, the engagement, the wanting to be married within four months. And then at the same time, all this was happening. While she was rehearsing to do Coachella with Destiny's Child. She was on a TV show. She just got asked to a Broadway show. And then all of her inner circle, which may or may not have been the right inner circle for her, was like, you and Chad should do this reality TV show and show people what it's like to be a God fearing Christian couple. Like, not having sex. They didn't have sex.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, they were celibate that way.

[Takari Leese]

They were celibate. And people are gonna wonder, like, how are you guys doing that? So you should have a TV show. So they're shopping this show around, like, putting pitches together. And I'm like, you're putting pitches together for your brand new baby relationship? This is bad. And a good friend in the inner circle would have been like, no, you. You should not be doing this.

[Quincy Zari]

It was just a bad idea. She didn't listen to her intuition. She also talked about it was a issue of pride. And so then this is when you see the aspects of religion come back, because she does. Does in every chapter, tie in God, tie in the Bible, give us a little versey verse. And talking about how, why did she and Chad feel the need to have a reality show to teach people about relationships when she doesn't even have a handle on her own relationship? And it was an issue of pride.

[Takari Leese]

Bingo. You know, and I think intuition was telling her that as well. It wasn't fear. It was like, you don't know enough yet. And it's devastating because you're right. In this book, she's often talking about these Bible verses, intuition and spiritual gifts. And I think this is something that everyone can relate to, regardless of your religious leanings or non religious leanings, that she's talking about affirmations and the power of words and making sure that you are sort of aligned in your words and in your thoughts because they become reality. Right. And so she's saying, like, as soon as Chad put that ring on her finger, she was like, this is not gonna work. We're not gonna make it down the aisle. And eventually that is what happened. Anytime they got in an argument, she'd take off the ring, slam it down. She'd belittle him, he'd belittle her. She was very kind to him. But I know that there was a back and forth. There just has to be, just based on what I saw. So she finally, you know, she takes it off, it doesn't go back on. And she is just feeling incredibly sad, doubting her self worth, not able to get out of bed. A friend happens to call in and check on her. She's like, I'm not doing well. Which leads her to call her therapist and they come up with a treatment plan together. And she goes to the hospital. She arrives with only the clothes on her back. She says she hadn't showered in days.

[Quincy Zari]

She didn't pack any undies, didn't pack any underwear.

[Takari Leese]

She is just there. And I think in the book she says, yeah, she was only there for about 18 hours before TMZ found out.

[Quincy Zari]

And she felt obligated to give a statement. And obviously she was not ready. And then she called her mom and tell her mom she was not ready. And she felt like a failure. She felt like a failure going and checking in, like, how can I be a pillar of mental health? And I had to check myself into a facility. And it's sad because it's like you're actually showing a huge amount of strength because you are continuing to advocate for your own health by putting everything on pause and checking in. Because our society puts so much shame around needing to go to a rehab facility when this shouldn't be shameful.

[Takari Leese]

It shouldn't be. It's so brave that you can stop yourself in the middle of these devastating and powerful thoughts to be like, I will save myself. And even if the thought is I won't save myself, but it was like, I can be safe for now. Which is something that you learn in mental health, first aid, that there is a third option between life and death, and it's just. Just safe for now. The fact that she was able to choose that speaks volumes.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

So not only does she call her mother, she also gets in contact with Chad. Chad comes to visit her. And in the book, she says she persuades Chad to give her a second chance. And I'm not sure how true that is because they were both contractually obligated to film this reality TV show. So she figures out treatment. She gets out in her mind again. She was like, I don't think this is right. I cannot film this show. But she does anyway.

[Quincy Zari]

I literally, in my notes, I wrote.

[Takari Leese]

No, devastating to my mind. I was like, oh, they did make it. I didn't know this part, but I was like, what? I didn't know this was the timeline you had, the hospitalization. You've already broken up with Chad. Chad comes to you, he helps you out, and then you still do the reality TV show.

[Quincy Zari]

And you're in the thick of it. You, girl. You are not okay? You do not need to be doing this damn show, okay?

[Takari Leese]

H. Devastating. And so, again, there was the second more serious breakup in which she, like, says they've broken up on Instagram before she, like, tells him, which is, yeah, yeah, so sad.

[Quincy Zari]

I'm just kind of going back before a little bit. Because their breakup, before she went into the facility was when he was with their nephews. Chad was taking care of his nephews, because that's also who Chad was in his family, in his community. He was a fixer. He was this person to, like, come in and make people's lives great. So he had the nephews. And that also triggered feelings of inadequacy for Michelle because she's like, oh, I'm not a very good cook. I'm not a good host. Host. I'm not like, Chad's mom, you know, Which I said that she was feeling like she needed to compare herself to Chad's mom because she's a good host and a good cook. And they end up having a blowout argument in front of the boys. And so they end up going to couples therapy. And she says some choice things. She blows up on him, and then that is when they break up the first time. But the second time, she gets out of the hospital and does the thing that she always does. Gets very, very busy. And so she's doing Broadway. She's doing the show. She was on an episode of Raven's Home. Like, she's busy.

[Takari Leese]

Raven's Home? Yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

And everything sets her off. She's, like, snaps at him and little things, because, again, when you bottle everything up, every little thing's going to be a problem. And they are having an argument, and he says, I can't do this emotional roller coaster anymore. And she heard, I can't do it. Do you anymore? And that is when she says, at this point, she goes in and out of consciousness of, like, remembering the things she does. She goes on IG, has a breakup post, talks about the engagement is off, and she snaps at everyone. Kelly tells her that, like, she was so mean to me when I tried to check in on you. Even her manager is like, michelle, I think you need to take a break, because she's just flying off the handle. And her cousin comes to get her, check in on her. She flies into New York and then eventually takes Michelle down to Atlanta, and she's been there ever since. And I also want to note that when Chad and Michelle got together, like, when they decided they wanted to build their life together. They moved to la. And it triggers her depression. I mean, she's already depressed, but it, like, triggers her deep down because she didn't like la, so she's not checking in on herself there too, because she's going to pursue a relationship with Chad. Whatever. Great. But, like. Like, she's gonna move to a city she literally hates and, like, not wanting to, like, participate in decorating the home or do anything, because she doesn't even like living there.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

And so moving down south to where there was sunlight, she needed it. She needed to move to Atlanta, close to family, into a warmer environment and outside of the hustle and bustle of the industry.

[Takari Leese]

You know, she is such an entertainer. But. But the entertainment industry, I think, is definitely a trigger for her. And I do think it has something to do with how she joined Destiny's Child where she was a replacement. And I say that with all due respect because I do love this person and I think that she is incredible. But I do think that label has really stuck with her and it makes her deeply insecure and it makes her want to work really, really hard to prove herself. And I do think that it makes her more sensitive to mental health duress and then adding on the reality television show and this sensitive engagement just was too much. And she talks about how Chad knew she was writing this book and he told her she can write about whatever as long as it wasn't corny. And she mentions that they're working on their relationship, whatever that means. She doesn't really go into any detail about that. But then she starts to talk about where she is right now, and she talks about doing the Masked Singer.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Do you watch the show?

[Quincy Zari]

No, but I know of it.

[Takari Leese]

Okay, Neither do I.

[Quincy Zari]

And I like the one where there was Wendy Williams on it. Cause he's just. You knew it was her.

[Takari Leese]

I don't watch the show. I have friends who are obsessed with the show. And there's, like, Australian versions of it and a British version of it, which Michelle was actually on both of those. The Australian version and the British version of the Masked Singer.

[Quincy Zari]

She loved it.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah, she loved it. She loved being on the show. She's like, I didn't win. But the reception to her voice was so lovely. And it reminded me of when she talked about doing the concert for the first time with Destiny's Child in London when they were a trio. And she was so worried that people wouldn't acknowledge her or be nasty to her. Just there wouldn't be a warm welcome for her. But then she saw the first sign with her name on it.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And she was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. And as she was recounting the story of the masked singer and the social media love and people being like, oh, give Michelle her flowers. Michelle the Bridge Williams. She's always had it. Blah, blah, blah. She's like, oh, okay, you do like me.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

That validation, I think, is really important for her.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

And I'm so glad she got it in this way.

[Quincy Zari]

And the thing about the masked singer that was really beautiful is that she could go up there and just perform. She didn't have to worry about what she looked like, what other people thought, because they didn't know who it was. And so they're able to, like what you said, like, fully immerse themselves into just her talent because there wasn't anything hinging on the performance other than her voice, and she could actually just stand out for who she was. And I think that was why that was such an affirming experience, which I really loved in the costume. She was a butterfly.

[Takari Leese]

The butterfly. What a beautiful moment for she is emerging.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Still, I think even now with this, she's currently on Broadway, and death becomes her. Yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

She's doing an amazing job. I've never. I've not seen it.

[Takari Leese]

An amazing job originating this role. And then she also reconnected with her girls again.

[Quincy Zari]

Girl. Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

That's off of Destiny Fulfilled. And she did one of the nights in Las Vegas for the Cowboy Carter tour, and I loved it because people have been analyzing their performance down, being like, look how in step they are. The iconic walk, the harmonies, they look the iconic walk. And now there's this whole thing of the three of them, people being like, look at these women in their 40s looking beautiful, sounding beautiful. This is what real artist development is. And the fact that Michelle could step into that factory at 19 years old when Beyonce and Kelly have been doing it since they were nine, that is how talented Michelle is. Give her her flowers right now.

[Quincy Zari]

Right now. And she keeps saying it in the book like, let's do a reunion. She's on our side, essentially.

[Takari Leese]

She's on our side. She wants the reunion.

[Quincy Zari]

Kelly and Beyonce need y' all to get it together because we're all aligned. We're all aligned.

[Takari Leese]

We. We are all aligned. The we see vision.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

In my mind, I'm like, there can't be three acts of Beyonce when her favorite number is four. So that fourth one better be a new, brand new Destiny's Child album. With their big girl voices.

[Quincy Zari]

The big girl voices. And then can we have Solange do something too?

[Takari Leese]

And Solange.

[Quincy Zari]

And then Bly bean roomy. That's when Baloo's gonna have all the sisters. Destiny's family.

[Takari Leese]

Destiny's family is crazy. Let's write it. That's right. Before we get out of here, just interesting about race, I want to note that when Michelle is talking about. She's talking about labels again, of course. And, like, being accepting of who she is in this moment. Post Chad. Post Destiny's Child. Just being happy where she is. She talks about how her neighbor. Neighbor is like, oh, are you single? Do you have a man? But then she's like, my Asian neighbor. She never mentions race at any other point, even for the most important one, which is her interracial relationship. She never says, he's white. But then all of a sudden she's like, oh, yeah.

[Quincy Zari]

Then my Asian neighbor with that neighbor saying, do you live in this house by yourself? Why aren't you married? And Michelle noted that earlier in her journey that that really would have affected her because it would have joyed me because she continuously talked to herself like, michelle cannot keep a man. That was like her label in her family. Whatever, Chad. And so when that woman said that and it was able to just roll off her back, it shows you how she's able to at this point because she's been checking in more. She was able to subconsciously just be able to, like, let that fly. And so I thought that was nice.

[Takari Leese]

Her growth. Yeah, her growth. I was gonna say her healing, but I don't. I don't think she would use that word. But we are definitely growing.

[Quincy Zari]

Mental health journeys are not linear. It's gonna be up and down, you know, and the tools and the coping mechanisms that we learn through therapy, through, you know, reading, it's just something that's gonna keep us going through the ebbs and flows. It's a never ending journey.

[Takari Leese]

So, yeah, Quincy, this was really fun.

[Quincy Zari]

It was.

[Takari Leese]

And just listening to you talk about the book made me be in agreement with that. I enjoyed this book.

[Quincy Zari]

I enjoyed it.

[Takari Leese]

I enjoyed it. And I hope I can't wait till she brings out a true memoir.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

Although this was delightful and I loved her storytelling. So at the end of this, we do the book dull test.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah.

[Takari Leese]

To see if this was up to snuff the glamorous trash standards. So was the author vulnerable in sharing their truth?

[Quincy Zari]

I would say yes. I mean, obviously she withheld some things for the privacy of, like, her parents. People in her life, but she was quite vulnerable with her own. Yeah, story, mental health. We got to hear a lot about her struggles with Chad. So I would say, yeah, a lot.

[Takari Leese]

Of struggles with Chad. I thought it was vulnerable too. I mean, just the fact that what she was thinking, like, in the intro, I think she set it off with a lot of vulnerability. And, yeah, other than the fact that she was so respectful of everyone else in the story, I just. I'm looking forward to the day when she, like, starts to name some names, because I still want to know who this quote unquote competitor was.

[Quincy Zari]

Yeah, I want to know, too.

[Takari Leese]

Who was it? Because was it a member of another member of Destiny Shop?

[Quincy Zari]

Honestly, why? My mind immediately went to. They went to Beyonce. They just wanted to be in my mind.

[Takari Leese]

I was like, they went to Beyonce.

[Quincy Zari]

It's like she said, people use her as a stepping stone. To who else?

[Takari Leese]

Yep, exactly. To who else? Was it entertaining?

[Quincy Zari]

Yes, I found it very entertaining. Michelle's funny is juicy enough. I mean, it. There wasn't, like, Juicy Juice. You know, she has a great relationship with Beyonce and Kelly. So, yeah, I enjoyed the whole way through. And also, too, like, I was a little worried because this is a Christian mental health book, you know? And so, again, for someone who is not religious but spiritual, it didn't alienate me. So, yeah, that's great.

[Takari Leese]

I also thought it was entertaining and I really enjoyed the little tidbits that she would give, like, not too much, even if she was like, like, oh, Kelly's a morning person. Me and Beyonce, we need some time. I loved it. It's so funny. And of course, I have to shout out the audio version of this book again. She would, like, hum. She did voice exercises in the middle of it.

[Quincy Zari]

Oh, that's fun.

[Takari Leese]

She would say something really good. She'd be like, that was really good. I wrote that.

[Quincy Zari]

Wow.

[Takari Leese]

Let me say it again. It was just so funny. Definitely entertaining. And then the last one, did reading it elevate your life?

[Quincy Zari]

Elevate my life? I'm gonna say no, but I wouldn't say it's not. I guess it's a nuanced answer to Cara. I would say that it made me feel like I would stop and think, so maybe it did. I was introspective. I was connecting. I also am going through my own mental health journey that's never ending. I have a therapist shout out Kelly. Eh. But yeah, I would say that I found myself having introspective moments and it felt like relatable. But did it heighten my life, actually. Okay, I take it all back. I'm a Gemini, y'.

[Takari Leese]

All.

[Quincy Zari]

So I just flip flopping. But, like, I would say yes, because after I finished this book, you want to know what? I went to the bookstore and bought a new book, and I haven't bought another book in a minute. I haven't really been on my reading tip like that. So thank you for glamorous trash. For, like, getting me back on the wagon. And so it did elevate my. Wow.

[Takari Leese]

Yeah, wow. Such a damn Gemini. Just wicked. That whole.

[Quincy Zari]

Anyway, we worked it out together.

[Takari Leese]

What a beautiful monologue. I was like, I feel like she's gonna flop. And then you did. I was like, this is crazy. Did reading it elevate my life? I wouldn't say it elevated my life in any way, but it made me hyper aware of where my blind spots are. There were several points in here where I was like, like, damn, I'm on my Michelle shit. Because I'm burying things down. I'm like, and I'm gonna lose it over some. Over something so simple. So trying thinking of ways to get my anger in check. I am. I'm not seeing a therapist. Maybe it's time. And then also thinking about my words and my thoughts and being kinder to myself and sort of predicting my own happy reality instead of being so negative. It made me think and it made me want to be better in that way. Elevating my whole entire life. I don't think so. But there were two areas where I was like, damn, Michelle, you got me. And I. And I need to tighten up on that, too.

[Quincy Zari]

Something that made me reflect. I mean, like I said, I have a lot of reflection moments. But, like at the end when she talked about in 2020 during the Pandy and, like, checking in with people because you should be checking in with your friends. And she talked about how people in her life had also noted, like, I feel like no one ever checks in with me. And, like, that feeling of, like, dang, you, me as a person. I feel like people don't check in with me. And then you might be the only person checking in with that one friend. And so it's just like, just sometimes you just gotta get off your high horse and go check in with people. Sometimes it's really not about you. And, you know, she talked about someone checked in with her, and it was like, oh, my gosh, you like me. And sometimes I have those moments too, where someone will, like, reach out. Out of nowhere.

[Takari Leese]

I'm like, oh, I have those moments.

[Quincy Zari]

You fuck with me like that, you know, I'm just kind of surprised.

[Takari Leese]

You love me down.

[Quincy Zari]

You love me boots down.

[Takari Leese]

I feel the same. And so yeah, she, she. Okay, well then that's the third thing. She also made me want to be more generous with my checking in on people. So yeah. Q, before we get out of here, where can the people find you and your things? Yeah, well, you can.

[Quincy Zari]

You. As you all know, I am a co host of the Lake. So you can find me as a co host at the list at Live Laugh the list on Instagram and TikTok and you can also find our podcast on any place you can listen to the podcast. And also too, I'm a creative girl. You can find me at on Instagram, Quincy, Zari Quincy with a I, E Zari Z A R I. And just follow me on Instagram. You see my shenanigans. The stories are cute. So yeah, go ahead and follow me and listen to the list.

[Takari Leese]

Yes, we love it. Thank you.

[Quincy Zari]

Thank you.

[Takari Leese]

Thanks for being on Glamorous Trash and I'll see you the next time we record the list.

[Christina Lopez]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate we will link to those brands in the show notes.

[Takari Leese]

Go check them out.

[Christina Lopez]

Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.

[Quincy Zari]

That's the sound of the fully electric Audi Q6E Tron and the quiet confidence of ultra smooth handling. The elevated interior reminds you this is.

[Takari Leese]

More than an ev. This is electric performance redefined.