Parvati Shallow’s Memoir Nice Girls Don't Win (with Caitie Rosen)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Episode: Parvati Shallow’s Memoir "Nice Girls Don't Win" (with Caitie Rosen)
Release Date: July 8, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Katie Rosen

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Introduction

In this riveting episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Parvati Shallow’s compelling memoir, "Nice Girls Don't Win: How I Burned It All Down to Claim My Power." Joined by reality TV enthusiast and previous guest Katie Rosen, Chelsea explores the multifaceted life of Survivor star Parvati Shallow, uncovering her journey from a cult-raised child to a master strategist in the reality TV arena and beyond.

Parvati Shallow’s Early Life and the Ma Commune

Parvati Shallow’s memoir opens with a harrowing account of her upbringing in a commune led by a charismatic leader known as Ma. Chelsea introduces this dark chapter with a poignant quote from the book:

"Being cast on these shows felt predestined for me. I was really good at surviving..." [04:02]

Katie elaborates on the psychological impact of such an environment, highlighting how Parvati’s early experiences shaped her survival instincts:

"The leader, Ma, was involved in yoga scams, creating an intense and manipulative environment for her followers." [10:08]

The duo discusses the intricate dynamics within the commune, Parvati’s forced assimilation, and the eventual escape attempts that culminated in her leaving the cult to pursue a more autonomous life.

Survivor: Strategy and the Black Widow Brigade

Transitioning to Parvati’s reality TV career, Chelsea and Katie dissect her participation in multiple Survivor seasons. Parvati’s first appearance in Survivor: Cook Islands [27:08] showcased her flirtatious tactics, initially perceived as naive but later recognized as a strategic maneuver to build alliances. Chelsea shares a humorous yet insightful comparison:

"Imagine holding a bucket of water with one hand—Parvati lasted six hours. I lasted 28 seconds!" [08:49]

Katie provides context on the season’s structure and its impact on Parvati’s gameplay:

"The Cook Islands season was groundbreaking with its divisive racial tribes, creating a unique backdrop for Parvati’s strategies." [27:22]

The discussion intensifies as they explore Parvati’s return in subsequent seasons, particularly focusing on the formation of the Black Widow Brigade—a women-only alliance that marked a pivotal moment in Survivor history. Chelsea emphasizes the significance of this move:

"When four women form an alliance and succeed, it challenges the traditional power dynamics of the game." [35:49]

Parvati’s ability to manipulate and strategize led her to victory, but not without facing harsh criticism. The infamous encounter with Perez Hilton serves as a case study of the societal backlash Parvati endured for her assertive gameplay:

"Each morning I walked into the Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf... Perez was writing 'slut' across my face." [40:04]

Public Scrutiny and Personal Turmoil

Post-Survivor, Parvati’s memoir takes a deep dive into her struggles with fame, failed business ventures, and tumultuous relationships. Chelsea candidly shares her skepticism about Parvati’s foray into life coaching:

"She invested her last $9,000 into a life coach program while seven months pregnant. That's desperation, not strategy." [55:07]

Katie echoes these sentiments, critiquing the unregulated nature of the life coaching industry and questioning Parvati’s decision to mentor others amid personal crises:

"So she tries to coach others while she's barely holding it together herself. It raises questions about authenticity and capability." [56:36]

The conversation shifts to Parvati’s relationship with John, a fellow Survivor contestant turned rocket scientist. Their marriage, marked by financial instability and personal losses, is dissected with both empathy and critical analysis:

"Parvati’s decision to support John through his cancer diagnosis while simultaneously seeking independence was a monumental and controversial choice." [66:40]

Rebuilding and Personal Growth

Despite the setbacks, Parvati’s memoir chronicles her journey towards self-healing and empowerment. Chelsea and Katie discuss the therapeutic aspects of the memoir, particularly how Parvati embraces vulnerability and confronts her own shadows:

"I don’t have to be good. I don’t have to be nice. I only have to continue to let the soft animal of my body love what it loves." [81:27]

The duo commend Parvati for her honest portrayal of trauma, identity, and the relentless pursuit of personal power, ultimately finding inspiration in her resilience.

Booktal Test: Assessing the Memoir

To encapsulate their critique, Chelsea and Katie engage in the booktal test, evaluating the memoir across three dimensions:

1. Vulnerability in Sharing Her Truth
   Both Chelsea and Katie agree that Parvati’s openness about her traumatic past and personal struggles is profoundly moving and genuine.

2. Entertainment Value
   The memoir is hailed as highly entertaining, offering an engaging blend of reality TV drama and personal introspection.

3. Life Elevation
   Katie highlights how the memoir provided valuable insights into coping mechanisms and trauma therapy, which she has discussed with her own therapist.

Conclusion and Takeaways

In wrapping up, Chelsea reflects on the broader implications of Parvati’s experiences, relating them to her own struggles with seeking approval and navigating public perception:

"If you don't like someone's opinion, especially strangers or passing acquaintances, why let it affect you?" [84:18]

Katie reinforces the importance of self-acceptance and the courage to embrace one’s true self, drawing parallels between Parvati’s journey and her own personal growth.

Final Thoughts:
"Nice Girls Don't Win" serves as a powerful testament to resilience, strategic thinking, and the relentless pursuit of personal empowerment. Through candid conversations and heartfelt reflections, Chelsea Devantez and Katie Rosen provide listeners with a comprehensive and insightful exploration of Parvati Shallow’s transformative journey.

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Notable Quotes:

• Parvati Shallow: "Being cast on these shows felt predestined for me. I was really good at surviving..." [04:02]
• Chelsea Devantez: "Imagine holding a bucket of water with one hand—Parvati lasted six hours. I lasted 28 seconds!" [08:49]
• Katie Rosen: "The Cook Islands season was groundbreaking with its divisive racial tribes, creating a unique backdrop for Parvati’s strategies." [27:22]
• Parvati Shallow: "Each morning I walked into the Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf... Perez was writing 'slut' across my face." [40:04]
• Katie Rosen: "Parvati’s decision to support John through his cancer diagnosis while simultaneously seeking independence was a monumental and controversial choice." [66:40]
• Parvati Shallow: "I don’t have to be good. I don’t have to be nice. I only have to continue to let the soft animal of my body love what it loves." [81:27]

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For those intrigued by Parvati Shallow’s journey and the intricate dynamics of reality TV fame, this episode offers a profound and entertaining exploration of a woman who defied the odds to reclaim her power and redefine her identity.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devantes]

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[Katie Rosen]

On it and I, I would love that. I've been trying to figure out what my niche is and I feel like it's like women who have controversial cult followings, maybe on the Internet of varying levels.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Obviously, yes, but I think the Internet is a big part of your niche. It's subculture, deep lore, only found if you string together various Reddit threads and tiktoks.

[Katie Rosen]

And yet Survivor is sort of a 50 season network TV show. So mainstream as well. In this one specific instance, absolutely.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But wouldn't you say that. Yes. Even though it's on the network, even though it's very popular, it is not what it once was. I think it has now become niche, if that makes sense.

[Katie Rosen]

People are like, oh my God, wait, Survivor's still on constantly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. And Katie is actually one of the people who got me to watch Survivor in 2020. That's how late I was. And we are obsessed. We love it. We make little challenges in our houses. We watch sometimes like Yasser was standing on a back roller and I timed him, you know, and then I would do it. It's sick. But yeah, I think it's niche now. They used to have like big reunion episodes where people would like fly everyone in and wait six months and now they declare a winner and, and then they just kind of like bring out pizza as the crew cleans up and they sit them down and they say, have a reunion.

[Katie Rosen]

You're in the moment, just like, with all your feelings still fresh. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay. So, Katie, you are also a frequent guest on Fixing Famous People, which everyone knows is the podcast of our monster memoir correspondent Chris Derosa. And I actually DM'd you because you're such an intense survivor fan, because you got me into the show and I asked you for guest ideas, and you sent me some lovely ones, and you said, but please pick me instead.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, I said, if none of them work, please pick me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, it was very gracious and lovely. And then you. You sent me someone very cool who literally just never wrote back, and I said, katie, Katie, you're booked. Katie, welcome to the podcast. I am so, so happy you are here. And when I sent you that dm, it's because we do try and get famous guests on sometimes so that we can, you know, you know, grow the podcast, stay alive as a business, hoping, you know, it'll reach more audience members. But everyone listening, please just send this podcast to a friend so that I can keep having my actual friends on as guests, which are my favorite episodes. So, Katie, I am so happy you are the guest today.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, it's good for me too.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, tell me, Katie, overall thoughts. What did you think of the memoir?

[Katie Rosen]

I loved it. I loved it so much more than I thought that I would. I thought that I would like it, but I genuinely loved it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I think you texted me. I just took a break to cry.

[Katie Rosen]

I cried several times while reading this book, and it's like, is it because I'm, you know, dealing with my own shame journey? Sure.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's why we love reading memoirs. Exactly.

[Katie Rosen]

It was just. Oh, God. I feel like I went in expecting to, like, be like, ugh, But. But then I was like, oh, actually, maybe I love Parvati so much.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, absolutely. This is someone who has gone to trauma therapy within the last five years, and it's extremely present in the book, which also made it something that, like, really spoke to me. And it felt very theme of the podcast, like, we are going to digest trauma therapy concepts that can heal your life through the show. Survivor.

[Katie Rosen]

A perfect framing device. Yeah, truly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I want to read one of the paragraphs in the prologue. Being cast on these shows felt predestined for me. I was really good at surviving. I'd lived through the new age commune in my childhood and my family's escape in the aftermath. I'd assimilated into a completely different culture and found a way to claim power in my young female body. And then I took that power and made it work for me, for better or worse. I love that framing for this book. And when I was reading the book, especially the prologue of how she was meant for this, it made me think of that crazy bucket challenge she won. I remember watching that episode. I was blown away. Will you please explain to people that bucket challenge?

[Katie Rosen]

So, like, basically, you're all standing with your arm fully extended above your head, and there's, like, a thing on your wrist, and there's a big bucket of water above you. And if your wrist, which is fully extended above your head, moves up at all, or if you're distracted, you fall off this thing, the whole bucket of water, like, falls on you. So it's very obvious that you've lost. And she's so good at this challenge.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Now, everyone, please put yourself. Put yourself in this position. You're. You've one hand to hold up a bucket of water. Your wrist cannot move slightly. You've already been starving on an island for 39 days. How long would you last holding up a full bucket of water with one hand? Katie, how long would you last?

[Katie Rosen]

I'm gonna say, like, to be generous to myself. 37 minutes.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay. And to be generous to myself as well. I'll say 28 seconds. That's just me. Parvati lasted six hours. Six hours. I do not know how she did it, but I feel like you can kind of connect the dots because she's gonna take you through her childhood, which is, you know, a deeply traumatic childhood. And I think that that is what leads you to a moment where you can hold a bucket up for six hours because you know how to dissociate, which is also. Dissociation is a close and dear friend of mine as well. I would still only last 28 seconds, though, because of something else called arm strength. And that's something she got that from.

[Katie Rosen]

Just from, I don't know, working out, boxing, swimming.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, exactly. Okay. So the huge thing in her life is that her parents raised her in a cult. Now, legally, she calls it a commune, but it's difficult.

[Katie Rosen]

Such a cult, the leader, like, or any relationship needs to be approved. Any, like, yeah, she is a white woman who calls herself some very, like, long appropriated name. That's right.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, let's set the stage for this commune cult. Let's talk about Parvati's cult leader, a woman named Ma, which really came out of an entire movement of yoga scams. And one of the things I am loving the most are all these yoga scam documentaries that are coming out there's. An HBO documentary where this white woman is called Guru Jogat instead of her name, Katie Griggs. There's the guy who trained her, Yogi Bhajan, whose name is, like, Steve or something like that. And basically, when we were seeing this, like, incredible yoga movement come to United States and people were pointing out, like, hey, it's like a gentrification of yoga or things like that, the thing that was missed is, like, no, actually, some of these people are full online sociopaths who just, like, made up some stretches, said they were Indian, and, like, stole millions of dollars. And this is a lady I never heard of, but she's, like, from the same offshoot of who?

[Katie Rosen]

Everyone.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ram Dass. Now, Katie, when you were raised, like, me, names like Ram Dass, you're just like, oh, yeah. Like, it's just. I don't know. It's like Santa Claus. Yeah, Ram Dass. Now, Ram Dass was a Jewish white American. He was a spiritual teacher, guru of modern yoga, psychologist and writer. He wrote this book called Be Here now, which really helped popularize Eastern spirituality. And that was his thing. And then the leader of Parvati's cult was once dating Ram Dass. And that woman was born Joyce Green in 1940. Born into an impoverished Jewish family in Brooklyn, she then later takes the name Ma. So Ma got married and became a housewife in 1956 after having three children, she struggled with obesity in her 30s and enrolled in a weight loss clinic. There she learned some simple breathing exercises for weight loss. After practicing the breath work at home, she claimed to have visions of Jesus, lost a bunch of weight, and was like, I am God. Everyone, come live in my commune. I'm sorry, but for origin stories, maybe my favorite charlatan was pretty good. Like, Weight Watchers to cult Pipeline is. I mean, it's horrifying for anyone who really got hurt, but that's pretty funny.

[Katie Rosen]

It also feels like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. There's entire religions formed off of, like, here's how reading the Bible helped me lose weight. Now come join my scam.

[Katie Rosen]

Like, and I thought it was very interesting how Parvati's mom had been working in, like, a drug rehab facility before she got wrapped up in this cult. Because I'm like, oh, Synanon. Maybe she was working at, like, this, like, the other cults that started as drug and rehab programs.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, my God.

[Katie Rosen]

In California, you know, like, maybe. Who knows?

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's so heartbreaking that cults bring in people who want a better life, who want to be better, who are Doing yoga, who are doing drug rehabilitation.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. They, like, want to help people.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's so painful. Now, Ram Dass dated Ma. Ram Dass real name is Richard Albert. So, you know, just full on grifting and appropriation from that man. Now, Ram Dass enthusiastically endorsed Ma as the real deal. However, at some point, the relationship goes awry and he's like, actually, she's a fraud. And his 1976 article for Yoga Journal titled Egg on My Beard, Ram Dass claims that he'd been duped by the female guru. That is an onion headline. I've got egg on my beard. Turns out this lady I was having sex with is not a real guru. Like, I am.

[Katie Rosen]

I am. She's me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Me, Ram Dass. Yes. I have a beard. I'm a guru. So this cult is so intense and this commune is so intense that there are times where they're just like, we're living in a commune. We're doing yoga, we're meditating, we're participating, community. Ma is leading us. There's. There's visions of that where it's like, this is normal life. And then there's other things. Like her mom gives birth to Parvati, and the guru calls her Ma, and. And she says, name her Parvati. That's her name. And. And it's the name of a Hindu goddess and meant to be the daughter of the mountain. And she's like, I name your children. I say, who can get married? I say, what can happen? At some point, her parents escape. Finally. What was the final straw that you read?

[Katie Rosen]

I think it was that, like, they were just isolated in this one tiny room. And then her dad, like, wasn't allowed to be with them. It was that before or was that after they came back?

[Chelsea Devantes]

There's one escape that fails. Cause when they leave, bad things happen to them. And they think it's like the curse and the power of MA and they return, Right? And then, like, she keeps them separate from poverty. She keeps them separate from each other, and they leave again. Hey. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. Whenever I see these packaged food programs, I just think, that is so expensive. Not with every plate. You do not have to spend big bucks or tons of time in the kitchen to make delicious food. At home. When you use every plate, you get restaurant level deliciousness week after week with recipes like crispy Buffalo Ranch chicken and cheesy Mexican street corn hash. I got their vegetarian package. It was fantastic. I absolutely loved their quesadillas. You will spend less on these flavor packed homemade meals than you would on your normal groceries or at a restaurant. And thanks to every plate's constantly rotating weekly recipes delivered right to your door, you'll always have the best answer to what's for dinner. This is a meal service that's really about serving, saving money and cutting down on food waste. So what are you waiting for? Dig into these flavor packed meals your household will love. New customers can enjoy the special offer of only 1.99ameal. Go to everyplate.com podcast and use code glamorous199 to get started. Apply to discount on first box limited time only. The summer is heating up with Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four. Line em up Johnny. On July 25th.

[Katie Rosen]

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[Chelsea Devantes]

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[Katie Rosen]

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[Chelsea Devantes]

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[Katie Rosen]

But they do it differently this time. Like, the first time they left, they left like in the middle of the night and, like, escaped. And the second time, they, like, slowly regain the trust and then they're like, well, we actually need more space than just one room for a family of four in this shared house. So we're gonna live over here. But it's gonna be really good because we'll have these jobs that'll make money for you. And so they slowly extricate themselves, like, bit by bit. So then eventually they have a whole life set up outside of the cult. And then they can just kind of like, leave for real without needing to, like, come back. Because they're scared.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, they got money, they got stability. They get all the things that you need to escape abuse and finally gone. You know, they get an apartment in Marietta, Georgia. And then this part kills me. Obvious. She said it's possible my parents discussed the changes our family was going through with me, but I have no recollection of that. They did tell us that we could change our names if we wanted. But after compiling a list of mostly Disney princesses, I couldn't settle on anything that fit and stuck with Parvati. This hits me so deeply because of what I went through with name changes, but I'm just like, as an adult reading a paragraph about telling a child they can change their name because they were named by a cult leader off of a Hindu Goddess they have no relationship to. Culturally, you come up with it child.

[Katie Rosen]

And where that child is still missing their friends, not really sure why they left, wishing they could go run around and be free with the other feral kids, as she calls them. She wants to be that person still. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And it's just like, identity is such a nuanced, layered, highly complex piece of your psyche that'll be with you forever, made up of extremely simple things. What is your name? Who is your mom? Who are your parents? Where do you come from? And, like, where do you live?

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And when those, like, very four simple things are played like they're Yahtzee and you just roll the dice every now and then, it fucks you up.

[Katie Rosen]

That makes sense.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Anyways, this is where, on page 27, Parvati writes about a book that she discovered that I wrote about in my own memoir, this I screamed, she said, at 40, seeking support. I read a book called Complex PTSD from Surviving to Thriving. I mean, there's just so few books on CPTSD that this is one of the few that exists. If you're listening to this episode and you're like, wait, should I look into this? You should. You should read the book what My Bones Know. And then you should think about contacting a therapist. And don't read that book. I just said alone, as I did. Fuck you up. Okay, so Katie, she's out of the cult. And chapter two is titled Fawn. And this is a term y' all have heard me talk about in the podcast because it blew my mind, clearly blew poverty's mind. Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And it is a response to danger. What did you think of Fawn? How would you describe it for people?

[Katie Rosen]

So I guess just Fawn out of the context of the book is like, you're appealing to someone. You're in a situation where maybe you're talking to someone who you need something from. They could be potentially dangerous, and you just make them feel as good as possible. You act like you love them so, so much that then they will treat you favorably. And I feel like in the context, it's like, oh, that's why everyone got so mad at her for the way that she played Survivor.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Exactly. And it's something that she learned very young. A lot of girls or those who identify with femininity in any way, this is something that you learn that we did not have a name for for many years. She said, I knew that having a few popular, cute guys interested in me at any given time gave me some real clout. I liked them. I just didn't, you know, like them. What I didn't realize at the time was that flirtation and friendliness coupled with emotional unavailability and intermittent apathy was a potent aphrodisiac. The boys flocked to me like seagulls at a beach picnic. The competition among them only amplified their interest. Being wanted like, this was a high, and I craved more of it. And it's also how she learns, like, oh, this is power. You get multiple men interested in you with friendliness and flirting and unavailability, and then you play them like pawns in however you need to survive, whether it's middle school, high school, or you're on an island holding up a bucket of water.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, she talks about how she, like, used it to, like, get better grades. And then my favorite is when she talks about how her and her friends used it to basically eat free fast food for all of high school. They had this little scam where they'd, like, go up to the window, they'd place their order, then the person would tell them how much it cost, and if it was a guy, they'd be like, oh, we have a coupon, actually, to get all of it for free. And then they would go up to the window, and just this car full of, like, cute high school girls would fawn so hard over whoever was working at that fast food counter, they would just drive away with their food for free. And they just did it for a full four years.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I gotta say, that's where I'm like, okay, Parvati, that's not Fawn.

[Katie Rosen]

No, that's scamming.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's full on scamming. Right? Fawn is something you do in danger, but she's like. But she learned, like, oh, this is power.

[Katie Rosen]

I'm going to apply it. She's just taking it. She's taking the concept, and she's applying it liberally.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Exactly. And she wrote this on page 41. She said, to be clear, you don't need to grow up in a new age commune to develop a killer instinct for fawning. Anyone whose caretakers or childhood environment were unpredictable read pretty much every single middle school or high school. Emotionally negligent or volatile could become a superstar fawner. This survival skill is potent and can be the quickest route to safety and power, especially for people who are traditionally marginalized. Girls, women, and LGBTQ plus. And I don't like the word bipoc, but it's here, so I'm gonna say. And bipoc communities. Reading you know, meaning anyone who's not white. In our patriarchal society, where assertive men tend to be dominant, it can be safer to stay small, pleasing, nice, and helpful. Fawning is especially useful in situations of domestic violence, kidnapping, or sexual assault. Well, so. Yeah. So then. And then I was crying.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, crying.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And it's just like, you know, it's not anything. I don't know. It's just to be seen.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. You know, this book is a real rollercoaster.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It is a real roller coaster. Because that paragraph is in between this other story, which is.

[Katie Rosen]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devantes]

She moves to Los Angeles with a vague idea that she wants to be an actress, which sometimes people say actress. What they really mean is famous.

[Katie Rosen]

And I think she says, just on tv.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes, just generally on tv, which is great because that's a lot. It's a lot easier to be open to everything. She gets this, like, entertainment, like, PR job and somehow meets a woman named Janice who was a casting director for the Amazing Race.

[Katie Rosen]

Jarrett.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Jarrett. Wow.

[Katie Rosen]

A man named Jared.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Janet. But it was a man named Jarrett. Whoops. Okay. And Jarrett, which. Let's just have a moment for that name. I'm gonna write that in a script.

[Katie Rosen]

Of course you're gonna meet a casting director named Jarrett if this is all.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The elements of your life. She is. I mean, she's just arrived to Los Angeles. I think she's 21.

[Katie Rosen]

I was gonna say, because I think. Yeah, she's. I think she's 22 when she films Survivor. So it would probably make sense that she'd be at 21 when this whole process is starting. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So Jared calls her and he's like, hey, do you have a blonde girlfriend you can bring with you to audition for Amazing Race? Let's take you back to 2005 where the two types of women were blonde and brunette.

[Katie Rosen]

Of course.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So he's like, you're brunette. You have a blonde friend. Now we have a team. And she's like, actually, I have two blonde friends. They were both her roommates. Julia, a former waitressing buddy from college, and Lily, a hilarious blue eyed babe with a charming southern draw. And he's like, I don't know. Bring them both to the double tree.

[Katie Rosen]

And let's see how it shakes out.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And so she brings them in and they go and they meet with Lynn, the, like, next level of casting director. And she's getting interviewed with her two hot blonde friends. And Lynn goes, pick one. And she's like, what? And she's like, amazing Race. It has two people. So which One of these blondies is going with you. And she goes, okay, Julia, I do love okay.

[Katie Rosen]

But she said, it is like, I thought you're the casting director. You would pick. And she was like, well, do you want to win? You want to win, don't you? And property's like, oh, okay. Well, then, Julie, like, it's. As soon as it was like, I thought, this is a competition. You want to win? Yeah. She's like, oh, yes, I do want to win.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Show me. Yeah. And it's not what gets her Amazing Race, but that cutthroat ability is what will get her cast on Survivor three months later.

[Katie Rosen]

And it does also ruin both of those friendships.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, I was going to say, but first she's got to go home where they live. All three of them live together. And she wrote in the book, like, things were a little weird after that, so we had to move out. It's like, mm, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

We don't hear about those two girls for the rest of the book.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And that's why women we need to check on for this episode are Julia, it's J U L E A. Okay, so if you're out there and Lily, how do you think they're doing now?

[Katie Rosen]

Fine.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I think so, too. I think they're okay.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And they don't even get it. So imagine doing that. Then you don't get it. Then you all live together. You're 22 in Los Angeles. All of you want to be on tv. Three months later, they call her and they're like, hey, come back to the double tree. How about you go on Survivor solo? And she does. So she is 22 years old when she films her first season of Survivor. Katie, how would you overall describe that season for people who haven't watched?

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, so the first thing to know about that season, which was Cook Islands, is that it was four tribes divided by race, and that was wild. I colloquially refer to it as Survivor.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Race wars, which I think was their working title, until someone told them, no, don't do that.

[Katie Rosen]

My Survivor journey is that I watched the first four seasons as they aired in, like, 2000, 2000 to 2001, I guess. And then I didn't really watch it until 2020 when I played an online Survivor game and was like, let me binge every other season of the show. And my new Survivor friends were like, okay, start with Cook Islands and then go back and watch through. So that was the first one I watched of my whole, big, like, 36 season binge.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, that's a great one. That's a great one to start with.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. It was so good. It's a really good season. A bunch of people from that season specifically then went on to be on, like, multiple Survivor seasons because there's just so many incredible personalities. The winner is really good. If you're looking to dip a toe and you don't live in Canada because we don't have access to these seasons anymore, it's a great first season to watch.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Listen, once you take in, like Katie said, 50 seasons of the show, the details blur. But I remember that is also one of the first ones I was told to watch probably by you. And I was going in being like, oh, no. Like, I don't want to see this much racism. They're divided into white people. Right. Asian people, Hispanic people and black people. Black people.

[Katie Rosen]

So those are the four, as we all know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, as we. As we all know, the four races, which. Lol. I honestly believe the census says there's actually five, and Hispanic wouldn't be one of them. So, you know, it's not that far off from the white men who created the census. So should we just totally take a detour about the construct of race? No, we're going to stay right here and we're going to let you know that I was. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I remember bracing myself for this is gonna get so vicious. And it doesn't. Which is actually really nice.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And a white person doesn't win. Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

Is that right? Yeah, that's right.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So I was really worried it was gonna be like all the white people just colonize Survivor and they just say racist things the whole time. That does not happen. Which I think is why this season is like an okay watch.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, I think it. I mean, I again, don't know this, but I'm gonna assume it's the season with the fewest number of white people of any of the Survivor seasons.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, my God, you're so right.

[Katie Rosen]

Because they were like, only a quarter.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. And there would be. I mean, through so many of the seasons, they're like, there's two black people here and they're the first to go home over and over and over. Like it is. So that's the worst part of watching the show. I will say the other good season to watch right after that, I think might be my favorite season of all time next to the season that Mike White is in. But it's brains, beauty and brawn.

[Katie Rosen]

That one is so funny.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It is the funniest thing I've ever seen because brains Goes down hard, hard. And beauty is like over here, working it. I do really miss these. They would. I. They wouldn't let them do them now. But I miss the themes. David and Goliath was a great one.

[Katie Rosen]

Like one of the last themes. Not the last theme, but was like the hhh. It was like Heart Hustle. Well, I forget the last H, but that one was terrible. It was a terrible season. And I do feel like that, like killed the themes a little bit.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Well, Hart versus Hustle is like a terrible.

[Katie Rosen]

And there was a third one that was like clearly shoehorned in. I'm going to look it up.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But I remember being in a writer. One of my first writer's room, and I can't remember what it was, but it was something like, let's all go around and figure out, like, who's the Carrie, who's the Samantha, who's the Miranda, who's the whatever. And this writer who'd been around longer than me says, no, I know it's tempting. I know it'll feel so fun, but that is the first way to get really toxic. And I was like, huh? And now when I look at Survivor, I'm like, yeah, that's why the themes are so good, because you start filtering yourself through these boxes. That leads to incredible drama. Okay.

[Katie Rosen]

HHH was Heroes, Healers, Hustlers. Terrible.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Terrible.

[Katie Rosen]

Oh, God. I mean, I. Of course I watched it. Of course I watched every second of it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. But listen, we've watched all of them.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So Parvati's first season, Survivor Cook Islands, premiered on September 14, 2006, a week before her 23rd birthday. So she comes home from the show now she did some grade A flirting with what's fascinating on that season to, like, flirt with the men. And really, you win Survivor by having social bonds. So by just getting all the men to pledge to you via flirtations was a phenomenal strategy. She went really far. And she gets home and everyone's like, actually, you're a big dumb slut, because what, it's 2006, so, like, you're a slut, slut, slut. And it's really interesting also watching that season back, she does nothing. She just, like sits in a hot tub and giggles sometimes. Like, there's one guy she's cuddled up with and then other than that, like, it is nothing compared to what's happening on the Ultimatum. Queer love in terms of using flirting to wield your power. You know what I mean? Yeah, this was real low grade flirting, manipulation. But she's called a Stupid slut for it.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, I honestly feel like that reaction to her was like, oh, well, then I'm gonna go even harder next time. Like, yeah, she was, like, flirty, but she wasn't like, using her flirting to necessarily, like, manipulate that much. No, it was just like no one else was really doing it at all. And so they were like, oh, you're the slut of the season.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Listen, 2006, everyone's a big dumb slut, and it's the way they would, like, put down women. You know, they loved it. Still haven't really thought of something new. Well, a year later, survivors, like, want to come back.

[Katie Rosen]

Now.

[Chelsea Devantes]

She had been training with a boxing coach and it really, she said it refined her ability to self soothe and contain her anger and aggression, which had come out for the first time on an island when all these men were being shitty to her. And it had been 39 days of starvation. She also got Lasik eye surgery so she wouldn't have to deal with dirty contact lenses or blurry puzzles, which, for anyone who doesn't know, Survivors real, like. Like, they're showering in the salty ocean. Yeah, yeah, she really was, like, swimming in a dirty ocean with contact lenses and then, like, trying to complete a puzzle. Now, how would you describe her second time on Survivor and that season for anyone who's never seen it?

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, so her second season is when she really came into her own. She was like, if everyone thinks I'm this, like, manipulative slut, let me do that. But for real, with intention. Like, in her first season, she was naive. She was just having fun. She was going along with it. She felt betrayed when people betrayed her. And then she came in the second time being like, this is a game that I am going to win. And she did.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And she's like, oh, this is amazing. I should just take out all the men.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And it happens so beautifully and so powerfully that this season is now referenced every time they shoot another season of Survivor where for the first time, the women made an alliance. Kicked all the fucking men out. It was called the Black Widow Brigade, and at the very end, it was all women. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back on WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages, that could basically become a podcast Your personal messages stay between you, your friends, and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. If you went on a road trip and you didn't stop for a Big.

[Katie Rosen]

Mac or drop a crispy fry between.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The car seats or use your McDonald's bag as a placemat, then that wasn't a road trip. It was just a really long drive at participating McDonald's. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. And now every time women form alliances on Survivor, the men are like, break them up. Break them up. They're gonna win.

[Katie Rosen]

Anytime women have a conversation without a man, the men are like, oh, we gotta do something about that. Couldn't possibly have four women have a conversation, because that's how powerful it is.

[Chelsea Devantes]

When four women talk and agree to have each other's backs, they win Survivor. And so they were called the Black Widow Brigade because that's what happens when women get power. They become murderous villains.

[Katie Rosen]

But also, there is, like, one of the most iconic moves. Parvati is, in this case, jointly responsible, but in other case, I think solely responsible for two of the most iconic moves in Survivor history. This. The first is the first one where the four women in the Black Widow brigade and then there's one man left, and he won immunity, and they convinced him to give up his immunity necklace and then voted him out. And it was so. And like, you know, this came out 20 years ago, so this isn't a.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Spoiler because it's crazy. It's crazy to give up your immunity necklace.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. It was so wonderful to watch.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And that was Parvati. She was like, you should give it up. Right.

[Katie Rosen]

It was so great, though, because, like, it was this one woman, Cerie, also an icon. It was her. Like, she just, like, had the idea sort of on a whim, like, what if we could get Eric to give up his immunity necklace? And then the four of them together crafted a plan. They all had a role. They all executed it to perfection. Everyone needed to sort of play their part in order for him to not be suspended, for him to decide, yes, I am going to give you up. Oh, this is going to be my big move. The Joy will love it. Everyone needed to, like, stick together and, like, not break out of this alliance in order for it to happen. And they did it, and it was perfect. I want to give individual immunity to Natalie. You're crazy.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You officially go down as the dumbest Survivor ever in the history of Survivor. God, it's. It's fulfilling even hearing you say it back then. Parvati's got to eliminate all the women in order to win the game. Right. And she does. She wins. And then when she faces the jury, Ozzy, another. Like, you'll see him pop up all over Survivor says to her, how does it feel to choose greed over friendship? I want you to do an interpretive dance to demonstrate how it feels to choose greed. And it's condescending, it's rude, it's fucked up. It's. You would only say it to a woman. And the game is called Survivor. It's literally like, how does it feel to play a game and win? But said in terms that. That are supposed to make her feel like a fucking monster and would only be said to a woman.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, like I roll. Eye roll, eye roll. It's not friendship island, Ozzy. So sorry that, like, your skills are fishing and climbing palm trees and not being strategic. That's on you.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Exactly, exactly. So she wins. She comes home. This is what 2007 Perez Hilton is blogging away in the coffee shop where she gets coffee, which is a coffee shop I used to go and work in as well. This is years after Perez Hilton ran his name. But I just. I think I spoke to poverty about it. But it's like, everyone really needs to know. When you were reading those blogs with come just dripping all over women from Perez Hilton and, like, checking the news, he was writing them from a coffee bean, okay? Not an office. He would go to the Coffee bean and be like, who's going to get jizzed today? And Parvati literally would get her coffee, look at him, and then click his site where he would write slut all over her face. And she said, oh, it's 2008. When I won Survivor in 2008, there was no cancel culture. Each morning I walked into the Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf on Sunset Boulevard and saw Perez Sarah sitting at his usual table firing off photos of Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, Misha Barton, all with white letters smeared across their images reading slut, whore, pig. And then she wrote this. She said, no one stood up for me or for any of the women Perez was insulting. Instead, people laughed. We were all big slutty jokes. I said, second memoir title. Big slutty jokes. We were all big slutty jokes. I could write a book titled that on. Oh, my God. Should I write a book titled we were all big slutty jokes?

[Katie Rosen]

Yes, please.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay.

[Katie Rosen]

It could be. It could just be like a anthology. Just, like, have people submit essays of something that happened to them in that time frame that got you called A. Yeah, I got one.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Genius. Katie, do we self publish? Are we taken to an editor? Okay, Cookie community. Reach back out. I think this is pretty good. Okay, so then she wins. She's back in life. Everyone is like, you're a dumb slut. Chapter four is called Freeze. And I said, okay. Now we're taking trauma therapy concepts a little too far in our book. Framing or not, I don't know. What did you think of it?

[Katie Rosen]

I honestly liked it. I like, you know, I think each of the four, she had a story that really fit with it. So I'm like, okay, great. Explain it to me like, I'm dumb.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I love this. Listen, maybe I'm just looking in a mirror and criticizing myself. I don't know. Well, so she goes back for a third season. Now, at this point in the book, you're like, you know, she writes about everything horrible that happens surrounding seasons, but also everything good and how she won. But then she comes home and she's like, I thought I was. I couldn't survive. Then two months later, they're like, want to come back? And she's like, yes, I do. So now she's back again. Now, Katie, how would you survive her third time on Heroes vs. Villains? Pearl Island.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, so this season was also so good, and everyone should watch it, I think at the time, and I watched it later, not as it was airing, but it was like, is Parvati gonna be a hero or a villain? Was like a debate. She says she was supposed to be a hero, and then they flipped her at the last minute to be a villain. And she's a recent winner. She's a woman. She's like a threat. Automatically she's put on a tribe away from all the people she's been allied with before. She's kind of playing from a disadvantage the whole time. As we learn later in the book, she's also dealing with insane things happening in her personal life. So she's more closed off than normal. And she's coming and being like, I need to claw my way to stay in this game.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

And people are mad about it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The only two women who had ever won Survivor were put on the Villains tribe. Yes. Which I don't think people really took a look at until, I don't know. This memoir came out today. Now, when you said people hated her for clawing her way through Survivor, what was it that they hated in this season?

[Katie Rosen]

I'm referring specifically to the, like, other players that she was playing with and also people in the world because, you know, we love a reason to hate a woman, but specifically the other people. It was like people she'd played with before her friends very that like where in the previous season Ozzy was like, how did it feel to choose greed over friendship? They were very much like, well, we didn't like how you played. And so actually now we were friends before, but now we're enemies because you played the game in a way that I didn't like. Which mostly meant that she was aligned with Sky. Russell, who is a bad. I think he's just like a bad person off on and off the show, but he's an extremely effective survivor player because he's really manipulative and he does not give a shit about what people think of him and often will go out of his way to make things worse for other people. And he took a liking to Parvati and they played together and people hated that about her. Like her.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Well, she also couldn't. Everyone else was icing her out, so he was like her only ally available. So she does not win this season. No.

[Katie Rosen]

But this is her other move that this is. Parvati has sole claim over this other iconic move. It's post merge, so everyone is at tribal council together and there's kind of like the heroes versus Villains are still happening now in one tribe. They're all voting together and Parvati has one hidden immunity idol and Russell gives her his hidden immunity idol. And so she tells Amanda that she has an immunity idol that she'll be playing for herself so she's safe because she knows that she can't really trust Amanda who was her like in the final two with her from Fans vs Favorites. And so she's like, okay, well Amanda's probably gonna tell the heroes so they won't vote for me because I would, you know, because I'll be safe. And then Russell has like ingratiated himself with the heroes, so he's gonna be safe. And then one of the other villains has immunity, so she at the tribal council, everyone votes. And then she says, hey, actually, you know what, I would hate to like go through this game without my little villains with me. So then she gives an immunity idol to Sandra, who is sort of an enemy, a frenemy, but mostly an enemy. And then she gives another idol to Jerry who also doesn't like her but is another woman from the villains tribe. So they're both safe. All of the heroes had voted for Jerry, so then all the villains are safe. And JT who is like the king of the heroes and very self righteous, he gets voted out and it is so good. And honestly, it is worth going and looking up like a Best of Parvati compilation on YouTube and watching these two Tribal Councils play out in real time. Even if you're not gonna, like, watch a whole season just to like, watch these moves. Oh, it's delicious. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I love hearing your recaps because I've watched them and I'm like, yes. Oh, so good. Well, and this is where I wanna come to the thing that was just really hitting me in this book, which is that she learns to fawn as a survival mechanism. Be friendly, be nice, be friendly, be nice. And then, you know, wield it for your own use. If you want. If you wanna be someone in this world and get things and have power and fawning and being nice and being friendly is how she does well on season one. She also uses it some of that season two. Right. And then she's called a slut and a villain for winning.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And so it's like, even if you're friendly, even if you're nice, even if you're flirting, even if you're hot, which she's extremely hot. Even if you're sort of. All these things that have been the rubric of what makes a woman get tens across the board, she's friendly, she's cute, she's nice. At a pageant. If you use that for your own gain.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Twins forever. You are now the worst person in the world. You are a villain. Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

You're only allowed to be friendly and cute and hot and fawning and flirty if it's for only exclusively the benefit of men.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. If it benefits men, great. If it benefits you, you're dead to us.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But Perez Hilton did not said she's a big slutty joke.

[Katie Rosen]

She was doing an interview. It was an interview after the season had aired and it was her and Russell and Sandra. It was the final three from that season. And again, I'm so sorry, if you haven't watched this, like 15 year old season of Survivor, I am spoiling it. It was on tv and one of the journalists said to her face, you know, I can't pronounce your name, so I'll just ignore you like everyone else did on the show. Excuse me, excuse me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

One journalist from Entertainment Weekly wrote in his column, quote, I can't believe it was the locals showing poverty how to catch crabs and not the other way around. Because she's like hot and friendly and.

[Katie Rosen]

Flirty, therefore has an sti.

[Chelsea Devantes]

A big slutty joke.

[Katie Rosen]

A big slutty joke.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, absolutely. And, okay, so she comes back, she takes some of the money from Survivor, different things like that, and she invests everything into a wellness spot. But.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, but I. I just. I feel like we should mention, though, that, like, right before she went to film Heroes versus Villains, her brother was visiting her and got in a major accident and was in the hospital and, like, going into surgery. That was, like, in her head. Also, the whole time she was playing that third season is like, she doesn't know how her brother's doing. He was, like, in the hospital. He came to visit her, he hid his head. It was like a huge disruption in her life that she was like, I can't tell anyone about this. It'll make me too vulnerable.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

And then so she comes back having this, like, season where everyone's yelling at her, she's, like, worried about her family, and she's like, well, now? Yeah. And then now she's like, okay, well, what am I gonna do?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. And. Yeah. And her brother Kaelyn, when she comes back, what's his status?

[Katie Rosen]

I think he's like, maybe back home with her parents and then starts going down this journey of, like, you know, now he's gotten pain medication and now he's falling into a drug addiction. And they're not really sure. Her parents aren't really sure how to handle it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. And I mean, yeah, it's just a really rough, horrible time in her life. But also, she's famous, you know, which people look at and they're like, oh, well, then you're fine in life and she's not. And then this workout studio, spa, just she goes into it with a friend where she does most of the work. Her friend does not, and the whole.

[Katie Rosen]

Thing folds and she puts in all the money because it's, you know, whatever you get after taxes from the million dollars from her winning Survivor season, all of it goes into this business that.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That fails. And it's like, yes, running a business extremely hard. And her friend, who she did it with, it sounds like that was also, like, so complicated and horrible.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. And then some people are like, oh, you want a million dollars? You're going to be rich forever. And it's like, no, she lost all of that money pretty fast.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, she lost. Yeah, everything really fast. And then she's like. I spun my wheels without a clear direction for my life. For a few years, I said tearful goodbyes to many of my friends who moved away from LA to start families of their own. My dating life was full of drama and Excitement. And devoid of emotional intimacy. I dated a series of men, bouncing from bad boys to bartender to famous Hollywood director to anonymous vacation flings. Name that director. Oh, God.

[Katie Rosen]

I know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Who do we think it is?

[Katie Rosen]

I know. It's so bad.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'm really worried.

[Katie Rosen]

It is Brett Ratner. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, Brett Ratner. That's who I'm worried it is. Well, deeply, deeply, obsessively worried. It's Brett Ratner. Just saying. Who is what a rat nerd. Okay. Okay, y'.

[Katie Rosen]

All.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And so she is now like, oh, I'm late 20s. Sort of. My TV ride is over. Everyone's starting a family. I should get married.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, she's like, I want a baby.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Yes. Sorry. But she's also of.

[Katie Rosen]

Jammer.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

Right.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And that's when she meets John. Now, Katie, again, for people who have no idea what Survivor is but are loving this episode, how would you describe John, who is also a former Survivor contestant?

[Katie Rosen]

I would describe him as someone I don't remember.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's right. That's right. He's just a guy who also was on the show who did nothing on the show, but.

[Katie Rosen]

But I did pull up his Survivor wiki page just to sort of have it on hand for when we got to this point of the conversation. So he played on Survivor Samoa, which was season 19, and he was 25 when he played. He is best known for flipping on his alliance at the final 10 out of fear of being eliminated by a rock draw tiebreaker. He made a deal with the notorious villain Russell Hantz. That same Russell who we were just talking about, who played with Parvati but was ultimately betrayed by him and then was blindsided at the next tribal council. Yeah, so.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And then gone and then out of there.

[Katie Rosen]

Not notable.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Not notable. He's a friend of a friend. She meets him, they start dating. He is also a rocket scientist. And she's like, ha ha ha. I love it. They get married. He's like, I'm gonna quit my job as a rocket scientist. And she's like, what?

[Katie Rosen]

And he's like, I've always wanted to do my mba. And she's like, well, never talked about it, but okay. But okay.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And he's like, let's move to New York. And they move to New York, they get married. He's getting his mba. She's doing, like, a journalism job.

[Katie Rosen]

She.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay. I'm not. What is she doing? She's. She basically contacted CBS and was like, hey, I'm a Survivor winner, former contestant. Could I have a show? And. But it's like, it's not her bag.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. It's like she gets some job that. She calls it real journalism, but it's like, we don't know what. It lasted 10 months. Yeah. Yeah. She didn't love it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Didn't love it. He's, like, studying, and she gets pregnant shortly after the wedding. And she wrote this. Survival in pregnancy was all about the baby. And for her to thrive, I'd have to kill the person I was before I felt an intimacy and closeness between death and birth. I'd have to release my maiden self to embody a whole new identity. Mother. Here's where I say some of those New Age books seeped in a little too hard, because that is not true. But it's what she was feeling. Okay? And she said this process of undoing occurred slowly and mercifully over the course of nine months. We moved back to Los Angeles to be closer to dear friends and family. John's parents in Orange county and my sister in east la. I spent time alone, journaling, resting, and grieving. And she said, I let my old self dissolve. I was so ready for this, Starving for a deeper, more meaningful life that connected me to a higher purpose. Until this moment, I'd been busy trying to fit myself into girl boss culture. And this is right around 2016. Why does 2016 feel like it was yesterday?

[Katie Rosen]

Like, she talks about them.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, she talks about the moment when Trump won and she's crying on the plane with John, and then she's, like, facing girl boss culture, and then she's pregnant. And I said, like, oh, my God. Like that day when he won, it was just a chasm that's been reverberating stronger and stronger each year. And she said, in our culture, we don't really celebrate invisible work during pregnancy. I became acutely aware of the productive power of rest and letting go. I said, damn. Yeah, damn. That's deep as hell. Deep as hell. And she has her child, and John is like, guess what? I don't really have a job. I'm a consultant now.

[Katie Rosen]

He, like, got fired. And then was like, don't worry, I'll figure it out. And then he did not figure it out.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, ever again. I think, ever again. And she said. A few months after we moved in, John had a confrontation with a partner. He was fired without warning. And unexpectedly, we had no income. I was seven months pregnant and scared. But I was grateful my parents had showed me how to survive in my early years. So, like them, I took action. I hired a veteran life and business coach named Amber, and paid her $9,000. I screamed my entire savings for three months of her time to help me start my own coaching business. I had no money left, so this had to work. She suggested I enroll clients by offering free free one hour long conversations. And if it was a fit, I'd sign them up for three months of coaching for a few thousand dollars. Thankfully, people did sign up and the work was fun. Okay, I wanna pause. I wanna pause. I wanna give a disclaimer first.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Life coach is a job I make fun of often. I also wanna remind people, Amen. Actor, comedian and writer. Those are also very ridiculous jobs that people make fun of all the time. And when people are like, comedians are losers and psychos and morally bankrupt and losers chasing dreams, I go, yeah. And when they say actors and writers and producers are disgusting narcissist idiots, I say, yes, you're right. Does that stop me from being them? No. Like, I love this job. I love my job. So when I make fun of life coaches, it's okay if you're a life coach out there and this is not you, live your goddamn life. But it doesn't mean your industry's not insane.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, okay, I think also they're like, life coaching conceptually is like unregulated or practically is unregulated.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Katie Rosen]

So you have life coaches who are very good at their jobs, who provide a real skill for their clients, who do the training and are really doing a good job and are helping people. And then also there are life coaches who are just like part of a multi level marketing scheme and what they're doing is nothing. And they're just like, they're like learning how to coach so they can train other people to be coaches. And it's just like a never ending pyramid of coach, coach, coach, coach, like turtles all the way down. There's life coaches who are incredible, and then there are life coaches who are scammers. And because it's not regulated, it's hard to tell who's who.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I said that disclaimer because I actually, I saw someone on the Patreon who had like, who was like, I'm a life coach. And I have really hurt feelings because Chelsea makes fun of them. But I, I want to say this like 90%. Yeah, I'm going to say 90% of people in Hollywood are dummies, are fudgeing idiots. Okay? And I'm still here, and I love being here. And I don't think I'm one of them. Judge for yourself. Whatever. 90% of people who are life Coaches are dummies, are fucking idiots. They're both industries that you can just kind of, like, walk in and be like, I know what I'm doing.

[Katie Rosen]

You can just one day decide that you're a life coach with no training or skills back.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And there's a man in the park who's decided he's a producer, and he wears a little hat, and it says producer Katie. Every time I'm walking the trail, I see him, and he's just a producer. Okay. Like, we can all do it.

[Katie Rosen]

I do actually feel like it seems like she made a real career. Like, I do actually feel like Parvati would be a good life coach.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes. So here's my thing with so dialing into hers one. Your last $9,000.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. That part made me physically ill.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'm so scared. Number two, you are seven months pregnant because your husband has fucked up so badly. This is a move not out of choice, but out of desperation. And listen, I do what it takes to survive. But third, Parvati happens to be incredible at this because of how she won Survivor and dealt with public scrutiny. She is going to be very good. However, at this point in time, I would say, you don't have a life anyone should have. Why are you teaching others?

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. And that is the thing. But she's, like, got the name recognition, so she's, like, gonna get clients. Because I'm sure she's, like, a good life coach. And also, she's Parvati.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. And she has the fame, and she won a reality. No, I'm. It's just this weird thing of, like. It's so funny that it's like, the.

[Katie Rosen]

Those who don't do, teach.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Or it's like, I need. Yeah. It's like, I need self help. Now I'm gonna teach others. It's like, but wait a minute. And again, keep this comparison. There are so many people here who are like, I learned about TV writing. Now I teach TV writing. And it's like, okay, but what about the part.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. Also right.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, but, yeah, exactly. Where it's like, you can't just learn about writing and then teach it to others. You actually have to do it.

[Katie Rosen]

Right?

[Chelsea Devantes]

And a lot of people are like, no, now I'll teach. So one night she's like, hey, maybe you could drive for Lyft. He's like, I have my MBA from Columbia. Like, literally, Columbia University. Like, I. Yeah, I would never drive for Lyft. Like some loser.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, John Rude bitch not provide any money for my family. Like a loser.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like a lo you are a loser, bro.

[Katie Rosen]

Like, a loser.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And how dare you shit on, like, a real job when you have nothing.

[Katie Rosen]

I'm sorry, but this man is the biggest loser.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, and I have a feeling she was nice to him in this book.

[Katie Rosen]

I agree. Because let me tell you a quick Google will say that there was a couple attempts at restraining orders over the years.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wait, what?

[Katie Rosen]

She tried twice to get restraining orders against him in 2022. Like, later down the line.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Why is this not in the book?

[Katie Rosen]

Well, because she wasn't successful, I think.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Whoa.

[Katie Rosen]

And I would say probably for the same reason that you can put some stuff in your book and just to, like, quickly go back to page maybe 102. Within months of them dating. He was, like, being a real asshole to her. And her friend was like, I thought you wanted to try commitment. You should just forgive him. And she was like, okay, I know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I got that advice, too. It was not a bad partner, but it was someone. I had this boyfriend where, like, every time I thought about getting married, I would feel like throwing up. And I was like, oh, that's because of my childhood, or that's cause I'm, like, an independent woman and I'm, like, afraid of commitment. And you. And I went to a friend, I was like, am I. Is that a normal feeling? Is that just. Is that what they say? Like, you're afraid of commitment, like, but you should push through it? And they were like, yeah, push through that.

[Katie Rosen]

One time, there was a guy who I was sort of casually hooking up with, and then I got to a point where every time we would make plans, I would get a spontaneous UTI before I saw him. And I was like, oh, I have to stop seeing this person.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Which is like, listen to your body.

[Katie Rosen]

Listen to your body.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Listen to your body. So she's pregnant. She's making all the money. She, you know, gives. She's dealing with postpartum. She is a life coach.

[Katie Rosen]

He learns how to surf.

[Chelsea Devantes]

He's on a jet ski with his dad. He goes to Argentina with his dad. And she's like, hey, why are you leaving all the time when, like, I have a newborn baby, and I'm also.

[Katie Rosen]

The only person earning any money.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Money. And he's like, parvaty. Cause I've always wanted to learn to surf.

[Katie Rosen]

That's why. He's also always wanted to learn how to retrofit an old van so that they can live out of the van and drive around together as well. Family.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And he's like, but I can't afford the old van. Will you buy me the van? And she was like, it's just nice to see you, want to get out of bed. And she buys him an old van that he what doesn't fix up.

[Katie Rosen]

But she does go on another season Survivor to have money to pay for that van.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Exactly. And so she's like, all right, time to go to Survivor again. Now they have a small child. So he agrees, what a good guy. Agrees to move back home with her parents so that he can have help while she is off doing Survivor. She gets a full time nanny, an apartment and everything paid for up front. After she set up the family, she hits the gym to try and like, you know, hold a bucket up for 10 hours. And her parents, John and a nanny are there to take care of their child when, what, he still doesn't have a job? He's still like, he could just take care of the child. Isn't that funny?

[Katie Rosen]

Well, but could he? I guess is the question. Could he?

[Chelsea Devantes]

And the answer is no. The answer is no.

[Katie Rosen]

Because what does he do? Walk over a puddle of dog pee on the floor and just say, hey.

[Chelsea Devantes]

There'S dog pee over there, someone should clean that up. And she's like, you, you, you should clean it up. The dog pee is the cincher. And that's when she decides to have an emotional affair over Instagram DMs.

[Katie Rosen]

Now, I gotta tell ya, who amongst.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You know who amongst it is now 2020, they're in lockdown. She's come back. So then in the fourth season, Sandra, her old nemesis from a previous season, her and Sandra are voted out and she comes home into 2020. COVID 19. Yeah, with the baby. Stupid John, her parents and the person she is DMing to have an emotional affair with. And I gotta tell you, this is my rule. Anytime someone says they had an emotional affair, they're definitely fucking. They're always fucking.

[Katie Rosen]

But I think logistically this is probably the one time when she wasn't because, okay, maybe of the lockdown.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'll give it a hard maybe. Okay. And on Memorial Day 2020, John saw the person she was DMing with messages. She calls him the lumberjack. She said it was a tragedy of divine timing. I'd been messing messaging with him on Instagram when my friend Tommy FaceTimed me. John joins the FaceTime. They talk to Tommy, they close the FaceTime. The messages are still up. He's like, what is this? And she's like, my way out of the marriage.

[Katie Rosen]

So the emotional affair was like they were DMing and he was like, asking her questions about herself. And.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And she was like, what is this feeling? It was very sad and new.

[Katie Rosen]

It was very like, I feel like Jessica Simpson writing letters to. Was it Johnny Knoxville?

[Chelsea Devantes]

It was, no. She doesn't say much about the affair. She's just like, we were DMing.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, we were DMing. And I was like, wow, this is so fun.

[Chelsea Devantes]

She doesn't say, like, we were sending pictures or anything. But again, like I said, when they say I was just talking, it was pictures. When they say it was just pictures, it was FaceTime. When they say it was FaceTimes, it was sex. Sorry. That's my belief. So then a bunch of horrible stuff happens. Her brother Kaylin overdosed, and he passed away. She is mid pandemic. John is trying to build out the van by the end of 2020. She writes, I was completely depleted. I couldn't think about one more thing. I begged my husband, please handle rent and bills for the next two months. I gave you most of our money for the van. I can't work in this state because I'm not certified as a coach in the state we've moved to. I can't support other people right now. I can barely speak. I will, I promise. When the 1st of January rolled around, John didn't remember that. He promised to pay me rent and said, I don't have the money. I thought, I've got to get out of this marriage. And then he says, hey, I went to the doctor and I have stage four cancer. This is okay. Pandemic. A young child, her brother has died. She's asked for a divorce. John has cancer. And instead of staying with him, I'm actually really, really proud of her because a lot of women stay and a lot of men don't when the other partner gets cancer. And she says, I told John I no longer want to be married, but as long as it feels safe, I will support you through this. And she supports him and stays there for him, but gets a divorce and gets an apartment, which I think is, like, a really tough decision to make because, again, of, like, how people will look at you, how he will look at you, but also, if this person has been horrific to you, do you owe them being a caretaker?

[Katie Rosen]

No, I think, yeah, that's how I feel. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So she said. Nearly a full year after Kailyn passed away, his in person funeral was scheduled for October 2021. He'd be buried in Colebrook, New Hampshire, the tiny town my dad grew up in. The week that I was scheduled to fly with our daughter Amma down to the funeral. John came down with a mystery swelling and landed in the icu. His friend, a surgeon, told me, this is it, Parv. Make sure Amma is around to say her goodbyes. John's not gonna make it. I was rocked by the Sophie's choice of it all. If I chose to bury my little brother, that would mean potentially leaving John to die while Alma and I were gone. If I stayed in LA to be there for John's final moments, I'd miss burying my little brother. Katie, what decision would you make in this Sophie's choice?

[Katie Rosen]

Well, for me, it's not much of a choice. I would leave the man and go bury my family and not really worry about it too much.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, okay.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, but that's just a me thing.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I gotcha. You know, I would stay there for the daughter father moment.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like knowing this man, I think she knew he'll still be around when we get back.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's a good point. And also, if there was more context of, like, I think maybe she left a lot out about him, maybe I would be like, this is not something to prioritize for my daughter. I don't know. You know what? You're right. I don't know enough to make this decision. She chooses to go to her little brother's funeral, and then she said, miraculously, he gets better. And John has since made a full recovery.

[Katie Rosen]

And I feel like, in that phrase, that miraculously, he got better. I feel like that's her telling us. I knew we could go and come back and he'd still be there.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Really? I feel like you can't use the word miraculously because that means no one thought it should or would happen in any way.

[Katie Rosen]

I think it's a sarcastic miraculously.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, okay.

[Katie Rosen]

But that's my own personal interpretation. But that's what I'm reading into it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay. Okay.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay. Is it because I am currently watching season eight of the Real Houses of Orange county, where we have Brooks who faked cancer. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe that's influencing me right now.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But okay, maybe. And then Dringo. There is your psychic moment. She sees a raven and hears a man calling her brother's name, but it's the name of his dog that he's calling. But she sees it all in one moment, and that is what helps her move on and find peace with her brother Kalin's passing. And that is how we really end that part of her life. Then we go into part three of the book, which is rebuilding and, you know, she's talking about, like, love and getting tools and rebuilding her life and making her own apartment and, like, raising Amma. And she's doing more healing. She's finding a trauma therapist. She's also finding some new age stuff that actually hated.

[Katie Rosen]

Was it accepting the parts of her that are, like, greedy and bad?

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. So, like, there's a book called existential Kink Quote. Each of us has a dual nature. We are light conscious and dark unconscious. The dark side of our personality. The other, the shadow side, is made up of what we think our primitive, primal, negative impulses are. Our exist, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's what I want to say. The man who raised me, who turned out not to be my dad, really believes in dark and lightness battling each other out. And I will never, ever take stuff like this seriously. He used to be like, I am light, and since your mother is divorcing me, she is darkness.

[Katie Rosen]

Like, okay, bro, that makes so much sense. I will say what I took from this part of the book was everyone called you a slut for so long when you weren't. Yeah, be a slut.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Be the slut.

[Katie Rosen]

Finally, let yourself be a slut.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Here's the thing. I would rather the book be called be a slut versus, like, your darkness and lightness primitive. Blah, blah, blah. Like, shut up. I'm sorry. I just. I hate. I hate. You know what? It's a personal issue. It's a personal issue. Maybe the book is great.

[Katie Rosen]

It's a personal issue. I mean, no, I think your perspective makes sense and is extremely valid. And, like, I don't know much about that book, but I just, like. As she was talking through this section, I was like, oh, yeah. If this just, like, gets her to a point where she's just like, hey, maybe I don't have to have shame around some of these things. I was like, okay, that's nice.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I'm like, trigger, trigger. This is a scam. You're giving your brain a scam. It's gonna do more harm than good. There are other ways to free your shame. Do not read the existential kink book. Okay? Now chapter 10, Beyond Binary. Ooh, I'm gonna read it. Ha ha ha ha ha. I have a dick. I looked down at my lower half and cackled. The strap on was boggling my mind. I'd always only seen myself as a seductive woman with all the tricks of belly dancing. A temple priestess, ultra flirty, femme May, as in Mae Martin, was lying next to me looking a little nervous. About my big reaction. I'd had lots of sex with men. I felt highly confident in my sexual prowess and capacity. It was always a fun game for me. The objective, Turn on the man by playing with the power dynamic. Become a siren, pulling him into my orbit with well rehearsed moves, sounds and sights. Then move away, forget about him. Become engrossed in my own energy. Dance, giggle, and let him find me and pull me back in. It was so familiar. But this was not familiar. Da da da da da. I'm going to fuck you with my dick. I smirked. It was their birthday after all. May's bright blue eyes grew big and round. Oh my God. Their voice deepened with a mixture of turn on and disbelief. Okay, there are now two memoirs with descriptive, voyeuristic strap on sex scenes in them. And it is Ione sky and Parvati Shallow. Now, granted, there's no heterosexual sex, given the deets in this book.

[Katie Rosen]

It's just. It is just this.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The strap on. What did you. How are you feeling when you got to this part? Katie, I know you have feelings.

[Katie Rosen]

Okay, so now we get to the reason why I will be making sure my parents don't listen to this episode. Here's the thing, it really is sort of a mind changing experience.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Is it like getting on Blue Origin and going to space to put on a strap on? It just changes you.

[Katie Rosen]

Well, I can't make that comparison. You know, I've only done one of the two.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But between going to space or putting on a strap on, it seems like.

[Katie Rosen]

I'll say this the first time that I ever pegged someone. And I will, to clarify, I have only used a strap on with people who identify as men with, like, CIS men, just for the clarity of if anyone, you know, needed information. But the first time that I pegged someone, I immediately was like, oh, every high school coming of age teen movie makes sense to me. I was like, I am now like, whatever. That main guy from American Pie. Like, I get it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I am now Jason Biggs.

[Katie Rosen]

The difference between, like, fucking and getting fucked is it does something to your brain.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wow. Wait. Genuinely, the teenage high school movies made sense in terms of like, we're gonna write an entire movie about putting our dick in something.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah. And like, how now you feel so powerful after you've done it, even just one time. Oh, wow. Because I was like, oh, and my life, like, I was like, now I'm a different person because of this.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Your life changed.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I love this so much.

[Katie Rosen]

I would say that if it feels like something you might be Interested in doing. I would encourage every person who does not have a penis to try out putting one on just to see if you're like, oh, I would hate that. And I definitely don't want to do it. Then don't do it for sure. But if you're, like, intrigued by the concept, I would give it a shot.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Now, what if you don't? What if people are like, I would love to do that, but I don't think my partner wants that?

[Katie Rosen]

Well, sure. And then, like, so obviously just, like, maybe just do it to, like, see how you feel about it. Like, having. Yeah. Yeah. If you are fortunate enough to find someone who would love to receive, then you should get on that experience.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I mean, I will say Ione sky, like, those paragraphs. She was the receiver. I think she was like, I was a slave to her strap. It was a crazy, intense scene in her memoir of, like, experiencing that, like, how she couldn't get enough. Sounds like Parvati's world was flipped upside down using a strap. Sounds like yours was. You know what I mean? Like, this feels confirmed. And what I actually really loved is that she did not walk us into this relationship. She just suddenly is dating someone who is non binary. She's no longer dating a CIS man. And I just loved that she was like, yep. And kind of later, there's one paragraph where she said, like, yeah, you know, I was feeling it out. But she really didn't put a lot of time into any feelings about her sexuality.

[Katie Rosen]

She was just like, I met this person. I like this person, and that is what I'm going with.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I couldn't tell if it was out of, like, listen, not a big deal, or if it was. This is still really new for me. And I don't know how to, like, write those feelings down. I don't know. But guest of the podcast, Evan Ross Katz, sent her a voice note saying he was interviewing May on his podcast and asked Parvati to send in a question for them. And it felt like a wink from the universe because she had been watching May in the Flight Attendant and was like, they are so hot. And she had slid into Mae's DMs already saying, why haven't you invited me to one of your shows?

[Katie Rosen]

Incredible.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Barbie's got. Listen, she's always had game, right?

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And May's like, okay, great. And so they like. She's like, I think I'm on a date. I'm not sure. And then they go out for the night, and she writes, when I dropped May off at their place, that Night. I was already head over heels. We'd been inseparable ever since. And I said, at this point, I go, we are at the end of the book. You know what that means? It's the memoir curse.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Never ever, ever, ever, ever ends the memoir on a new partner. You can maybe put a new partner within the book. Maybe. Yeah. Never ends on the new partner. No one's listening to me. No one's listening to me, Katie. So she said, back in bed, I was admiring my lover. May's a beautiful mix of boy and girl, or neither, really. They're non binary and they've been with lots of stuff, straight women before. Only some of them ever wanted to wear the dick. This was an exploration for both of us. I'd only ever been with men before, and May knew this. Both of us dove into a field of infinite creative possibility. Now here's the part where I said, oh, my God, I would also be head over heels like it is. I. It is so cute. She said she'd had a kink fantasy that she previously tried to get a male partner to do who never did it. Never showed up with the bondage elements, never picked up the rope that was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do it.

[Katie Rosen]

Explicit instructions and was like, just, yeah, Never followed through.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And this person who she was giving instructions to, who was like, hey, do something kinky with me, was a doctor, and he just like, never does anything. An hour later, I had a response from May, who had written back in the voice of the doctor, celebrating my courage and willingness to open up the space to talk about this topic in a judgment free zone. And then a few days later, May sent a roleplay script they'd written for us. I knew I'd met my match in the bedroom. So they both read the script and then play it out. I gotta tell you, dreamy talk can be like, listen, some people like comes naturally to others. A script sounds amazing. I would. Maybe it's just the actor in me, but I'm like, oh, my God. You get lines and then you just get to do them. But then it goes into May being an improviser and improvising through love. I said, now I'm out again.

[Katie Rosen]

And he did write. Lol. Improv is romantic.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I can't. So she's dating May. They've become a family. I think it was taken out of the book. It's all a bit vague, but I do believe at some points they got engaged. There was never an announcement, but May has discussed this on their podcast. However, in the timeline of this book, Parvidi goes and shoots Traitors. Traitors is gonna blow up. As we all know, there's chat threads about it in our Patreon all the time. So Parvati does not win that season of Traitors. But Peter, the pilot from the Bachelor, is on there and does quite well, which makes it devastating. It really illuminates his season, which was one of the last great seasons of the Bachelor. And she comes home from the show at LAX and in the book says, I love you. I said. It wasn't the first time I'd said it, but after such a long and intense separation, it felt monumental. May's eyes lit up. I love you. I cannot overstate the therapeutic effect of May's presence and love. It was new for me to have someone to take care of me like this, and it soothes me in a way I'd ached for. Each time I'd come home from playing Survivor, I'd only ever returned home to chaos. This was the first time I had come home to safety, and I knew how to recognize safety after all the work I'd done building toward it. That's page 220, the memoir, she said. The Traitors aired in January 2024 and became the top rated reality TV show in the United States. Fans from every reality TV franchise tuned in to watch their favorite show. The fan response knocked me off my feet. Rather than criticizing me for the mistakes I'd made or the Persona I'd played, they were donning my signature sparkly beaded headbands and impersonating me at watch parties. They were having a ball with the show and embracing the campy drama because I had a sense of humor about myself and I owned my messy choices. I was also having a blast watching the show. I'd played fast and loose, far from perfect and only moderately strategic. I hadn't come close to winning. But none of that mattered. I felt victorious. And then at the end of the epilogue, she writes, I know for certain now that I don't have to be good. I don't have to be nice. I don't have to be liked. I only have to continue to let the soft animal of my body love what it loves. And she and Mae are no longer together.

[Katie Rosen]

No, and to the point where Mae isn't even in the acknowledgments.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I mean, this is how tough the timeline is, because I know. Well, here's the thing. I asked Parvati about this, and keeping all that in the book ends with me. But then it's coming out. You're not even together. That's so tough. There's all these rumors of her going on another reality show and meeting someone else there. May has talked it a bit on their podcast. Katie, I think we should do the booktal test. Are you ready?

[Katie Rosen]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Three questions. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Katie Rosen]

Very much so, I think absolutely.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Not only was she vulnerable and emotional about hard stuff, she gave us a strap on sex scene. You get a yes. Second question, was it entertaining to read?

[Katie Rosen]

So entertaining.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So entertaining. I was supposed to read literally eight other books before I read this one because we got an early galley two months ago and I just picked it up to glance at it and I read the whole thing before I was. Before I read all the other books I was supposed to read. I loved it. Final question, did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Katie Rosen]

Absolutely. I've already talked to my therapist about it. There's a quote that I've highlighted that. Just that she got from a book, but she put it in this book and that's how I learned about it, which is you can never get enough of something that almost works. And that alone has elevated my life. So. Yes, very much.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wow. Yeah. I will say I'm also a yes, I really know something to be true. I've known it for a long time. I also wrote about it. It's a big thing I grapple with in therapy all the time, which is wanting to be liked is a poison that'll kill you, but the skills it takes to be liked and the achievement of being liked is something that kept me alive and prospering for a long time. And even though I know this and I know these concepts, I know them so well, I think about them all the time. I am still really struggling to live them. And reading Parvati's book, it's just like, yeah, if I do not get a handle on dealing with the emotions of what happens when someone doesn't like you, A stranger, an acquaintance, someone you know. But honestly, when you're doing a podcast and making TV and stuff, it's usually strangers, right? Like, it's strangers. It's people you don't know. And so therefore your brain can really project merit onto their claims rather than like, if you saw them in person, you'd be like, I don't care what you think. You, I don't give a fuck.

[Katie Rosen]

Certainly not you.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Certainly not you. And also, like, I probably don't like the shit you like. Like, it really should Only matter if it's someone you like and if.

[Katie Rosen]

And if you align whose opinion you already respect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Where it's like, why would I give a fuck if you don't like my book if. Like, what if you love J.D. salinger, you know, I don't give a fuck what you think. Like, but I. There's nothing. I'm just so. I'm going really far in this. Obviously, it's something I struggle with, but I think it's just like, yeah, poverty. Like living through five reality TV shows as a slut in the 2000s.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's just. It's really sitting with me, and I wish I had more answers because I need them, but that's how it's elevated my life of, like, I've got to put in the work to, like, move past this.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Should I put a strap on on and then tell myself 5. 5 affirmations. You are loved. We don't care what people think of you. Well, listen, whatever fucking works, Katie, tell everyone where they can find you, follow you, and bully you into having a podcast, which is something I do every week but has not worked for years.

[Katie Rosen]

And will never work. You can follow me on Instagram if you want. Rosie 23. But I don't really post ever, so, you know, make that choice. Be your own rabbi.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The real place to find Katie is in our Patreon chats and in the book club.

[Katie Rosen]

Yeah, that's the place to find me. Also, I was recently on a Patreon episode of Fixing Famous People on Network Notes where I talk about network tv, so you could go find me over there. I've been on an episode of Aaron Bagwell's podcast Under the Moongate, so you could find me over there. I'm on other people's podcasts, never my own.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I love that. Listen, know where you thrive. Thank you so much for coming on and discussing this with me. You are the perfect guest.

[Katie Rosen]

Thank you so much for having me. It's all I've wanted since I heard this book was coming out.

[Chelsea Devantes]

A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using Code Trash. That's right. Trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.