Roseanne Barr's Memoir My Lives (with Ronna Glickman and Bryan Safi)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast - Episode Summary

Title: Roseanne Barr's Memoir My Lives
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guests: Ronna Glickman and Brian Safi
Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode, Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Roseanne Barr's second memoir, My Lives, alongside guests Ronna Glickman and Brian Safi. The discussion revolves around Roseanne's tumultuous journey, exploring themes of feminism, personal trauma, career struggles, and her controversial shift towards the MAGA movement.

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Roseanne Barr's Early Life and Memoir Themes

The conversation begins with an exploration of Roseanne Barr's upbringing in Utah, highlighting the challenges she faced as a Jewish minority in a predominantly Mormon region.

• Chelsea Devantez [03:11]: "I have been unsure if people knew that Roseanne had two highly feminist manifesto memoirs before the Roseanne we know now."

Roseanne's early life is portrayed as one marked by ostracization and trauma, which profoundly influenced her later persona and career choices.

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Career and Roseanne Television Show

Roseanne's breakthrough in television is examined, emphasizing her role in creating a groundbreaking, female-driven sitcom that centered on working-class life.

• Brian Safi [20:55]: "What really was revolutionary about Roseanne was the way that she depicted working class life and a woman that was at the center of that family."

The hosts discuss the creative tensions between Roseanne and her showrunner, Matt Williams, noting Roseanne's insistence on a female-driven narrative despite pushback.

• Chelsea Devantez [20:03]: "She wanted a totally female-driven show. Where did that Roseanne go? That is revolutionary in that year."

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Personal Relationships and Life

The dynamics of Roseanne's relationships, particularly her marriage to Tom Arnold, are scrutinized. The memoir reveals a toxic partnership exacerbated by substance abuse and mutual antagonism.

• Brian Safi [31:22]: "Tom Arnold becomes Roseanne's manager. This explains a lot of career decisions."

Their relationship is depicted as codependent, with both parties enabling each other's destructive behaviors.

• Ronna Glickman [35:26]: "How much she believed in herself ... how she just knew exactly what her vision was."

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Trauma and Personal Struggles

A significant portion of the memoir deals with Roseanne's traumatic experiences, including alleged sexual abuse and mental health struggles following a head injury.

• Brian Safi [08:38]: "Multiple ghost riders. I'm very curious if we know anything about that."

The hosts express skepticism over the memoir's authenticity, suggesting possible co-authoring or embellishments.

• Chelsea Devon Ches [10:12]: "If someone else worked on this, they should be fired and banned from books forever."

Roseanne's portrayal of her trauma is discussed as being inconsistent, especially when she recants abusive experiences later in the memoir.

• Brian Safi [13:16]: "She recants after writing this book. So I just felt like she must have been under deadline pressure and said, throw some money at this."

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Analysis of the Memoir's Content and Writing Style

The memoir's writing style is critiqued for being disjointed and abrupt, with sudden shifts in narrative that leave readers confused.

• Chelsea Devantez [46:37]: "The book is small but mighty."

Notable passages, such as Roseanne's depiction of her stint at Benegan's and her subsequent dive into stand-up comedy, are highlighted for their raw and unfiltered nature.

• Brian Safi [46:43]: "This book is the story of Roseanne the person ... It's about America turning its back on me."

The hosts debate the depth of Roseanne's vulnerability, with some finding her openness both compelling and problematic.

• Ronna Glickman [87:48]: "They were open, but I don't know if they were vulnerable."

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Feminism and Shift to MAGA

A central theme of the memoir is Roseanne's staunch feminism, which paradoxically contrasts with her later alignment with the MAGA movement. The hosts explore this shift as a manifestation of deep-seated trauma and unresolved personal conflicts.

• Chelsea Devantez [73:15]: "It's a war against children, in innocence, ultimately a war against ourselves and what being abused is like."

Ronna suggests that Roseanne's inability to adapt to changing cultural landscapes led her to cling to outdated ideologies.

• Ronna Glickman [85:35]: "Roseanne is not interested in the world moving past her. So she will go where her audience is; she just wants to sound off."

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Generational Abuse and Personal Accountability

The memoir touches upon the cycle of generational abuse, with Roseanne's relationship with her parents and the impact on her own parenting style being a focal point.

• Brian Safi [38:06]: "It's the cycle of generational abuse where one generation does it to the other."

Roseanne's conflicting narratives about her past and present relationships raise questions about her mental state and the authenticity of her memoir.

• Chelsea Devantez [70:05]: "She is a deeply abusive person in addition to being a deeply abused person."

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Conclusion and Reflections

In wrapping up the discussion, the hosts reflect on the complexities of Roseanne Barr's legacy. They acknowledge her contributions to television and feminism while criticizing her personal choices and the portrayal in her memoir.

• Chelsea Devantez [90:14]: "This book really drilled down a theme of the podcast, which is oftentimes when we think we're looking at the craziest woman ever, we are looking at someone who has suffered deep trauma and was not able to get help for it."

Ronna and Brian emphasize the importance of understanding the underlying trauma behind Roseanne's actions, advocating for empathy rather than outright condemnation.

• Ronna Glickman [93:50]: "It's about being a victim. But also, she's still fighting a fight that you cannot win until you no longer know who you're fighting."

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Notable Quotes

• Chelsea Devantez [73:15]: "This is the thing about tarot cards is that they guide your unconscious to help you focus in. You already know the answers you need."

• Brian Safi [08:38]: "I'm very curious if we know anything about that."

• Ronna Glickman [46:40]: "The book slaps your face. And you say thank you, mommy."

• Brian Safi [92:29]: "TV is about demographics. Why are most of the women on TV being raped, murdered, humiliated, degraded?"

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Final Thoughts

Chelsea, Ronna, and Brian offer a nuanced and critical examination of Roseanne Barr's My Lives, highlighting the memoir's raw exploration of personal trauma, feminist ideals, and the pitfalls of fame. They underscore the importance of viewing Roseanne not just as a controversial figure, but as a complex individual shaped by her experiences and struggles.

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Note: All quotes and timestamps are based on the provided transcript and are attributed accurately to reflect the conversation during the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

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[Brian Safi]

Hi.

[Ronna Glickman]

What an intro.

[Brian Safi]

You're really happy. Yes. I want to say you're so professional. You're like an 80s rock jock.

[Ronna Glickman]

Ah, br. She's got a pedigree. I mean, this is no shock.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Listen, we are on our 275th memoir. I'm coming for Howard Stern if I do 9,000 more. Wow. I am so thrilled we're doing this. You know, I was on your podcast and we said we must do a book together.

[Brian Safi]

We remember. Yeah, we invited ourselves on is essentially what happened.

[Ronna Glickman]

I think we did. I think at the end of that episode of Ask Grana, we were like, see you when.

[Brian Safi]

This wasn't. It wasn't enough. We needed more. And we also knew our listeners, if they were not already listening to your show, needed to be listening to your show. So we said, let's do a flip flop.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That is exactly how I feel. I feel like we are matchmaking our listeners today. They should meet each other, they should know each other. They should be in love. They should be pen Pals, they should argue.

[Ronna Glickman]

And I got to tell you, because Rana and I fashion ourselves to be high, low, and what could be higher and lower than glamorous and then trash. That's all of us.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That's all of us. And this book, I'm so thrilled. I am so thrilled we chose this book. I've wanted to do it for a long, long time because I have been unsure if people knew that Roseanne had two highly feminist manifesto memoirs in her before the Roseanne we know now. Which. Let's just check in.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, please.

[Ronna Glickman]

Oh, no.

[Brian Safi]

I, I actually don't know where she is at on the spectrum right now. And I'm dying to know. Yeah, the last I checked in with Rosanne, she had, as I was saying to Brian on the show the other day, four or five very large catering chafing dishes on the counter in her kitchen where RFK had made some kind of a campaign stop and was sitting at her kitchen table being forced to eat old catering food and, and listen to whatever she had to say.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That is really good info because. Yeah, get this. Okay, so, you know, I don't know if you saw the music video she did where she wore cornrows and did black fishing and it was all about Trump and maga and it was with some white rapper whose name I don't remember the song. I don't remember. But I do remember the image of her in long white yellow cornrows.

[Ronna Glickman]

Screw Eminem. Definitely remember that. Definitely remember seeing an image of it and definitely remember her releasing like a stand up special on Fox News or something like that.

[Brian Safi]

I do wish the video had been submitted as evidence before I record.

[Ronna Glickman]

I don't know about that.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I, I love it even more because, you know, Roseanne got kicked off of Roseanne, her television show, for a very racist tweet. Now she is maga. And this is the latest headline. Roseanne Barr really hurt after being frozen out of Trump's inner circle despite going full maga. And I said, maybe this is just a clickbaity headline. No, I read in she's given quot she's like, I have gone full maga. I'm very hurt the inner circle hasn't brought me into more MAGA events.

[Brian Safi]

I think she's right. I mean, in an, in an alternate world, why is Mel Gibson the ambassador Hollywood?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

When he's anti Semitic, why isn't Roseanne the ambassador to Hollywood? If Trump is so worried about how Jews are being treated on college campuses, which we all know is a smokescreen for deporting people. But in any event.

[Ronna Glickman]

Well, what is so wild is this feminist manifesto she wrote. Are two of them now, two memoirs that were feminist manifestos before what I can assume is a blunt force trauma. I mean, I don't know what happened, but she is now being, I'm sure, maga. Part of it is she's a woman. And that's exactly what I mean, because there are plenty of lunatics in that circle. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's almost as if they said they're sexist and then they meant it. Can you believe.

[Brian Safi]

Well, he does have a woman running his. What? Running the White House. That Susie. What's her name Is.

[Ronna Glickman]

Isn't she great?

[Brian Safi]

The chief of staff? Yeah. Well, she's like the headmistress. Yeah. That keeps everything going. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wait, is that. That's different from the press secretary, right?

[Brian Safi]

Oh, she's terrific.

[Ronna Glickman]

She's great.

[Brian Safi]

She. I can't. I can't wait till her nose falls off. That's what I'm waiting for.

[Ronna Glickman]

My parents goes, we think she's doing a wonderful job. And I was like. Because she's kicked every reporter out of there who could ask a simple, clear, educated question.

[Brian Safi]

She is volatile and reactionary. It's a little performance that she's giving and. And she's really enjoying that, you know, being astonished and upset by, you know, people saying, we just had, like, a very simple question about timeline. Yeah, yeah. Like a fact.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

A fact. Can I say something that might get me Roseanne Barr canceled and then I'll just cut it from this podcast? I do find it infuriating that this party that has, like, really made sure that women are supposed to look a certain way and be a certain beauty standard, and, like, this is the party that, you know, is like, give us your uterus and you have to be blonde and you have to be beautiful or suffer and die. But then they don't follow their own rules. Like the press secretary, Carolyn Levitt, she looks like she sets her foundation using baking flour. And listen, we don't part our hair on the side anymore. That's disgusting and millennial. But she's doing it. And she looks like a conservative Crypt Keeper. And I said, but you're the beauty party, aren't you? So what are you doing?

[Brian Safi]

But they're not the beauty. I mean, that's the thing. They're the leftovers. That's who they are.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That's right. That's right.

[Brian Safi]

And so that's the. It's the bastardization of Ivanka Trump.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

You know, please Don't.

[Ronna Glickman]

But Chelsea is there cursing on this show.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

So much cursing.

[Brian Safi]

We read. We read this, but I'm not allowed to say bastardization. I will say I read it wondering about her evolution. But, Brian, Brian, you were going to say something, sweetheart? I apologize.

[Ronna Glickman]

I was just going to say I know someone who works at Disney, and part of the Disney buildings in New York are in the Fox News building in New York. So they said when they went to the elevator, it was. The contrast was wild. It would be like half creatives in the elevator and then half people who worked at Fox. And it was just funny. It was like going to the, like reverse Oz, right?

[Brian Safi]

People that are living in the world and then like the Miss America pageant where people come in with full contour, full spray tan. Full.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, but again, you're not working it like you are. The spray tan, high heels, leggy, Fox News party fudgeing. Follow through and show me a hottie on camera. Or don't enforce the beauty standard.

[Ronna Glickman]

No, it's really the end of death becomes her with the spray paint on the face. That's really what it is.

[Brian Safi]

And Kimberly Guilfoyle is the perfect sort of sad example.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Kimberly Gargoyle is the perfect. Exactly.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, genuinely.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

We did cover her memoir on this podcast I saw.

[Ronna Glickman]

I heard it was a time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It was a time. Okay, so quickly, before we dive in. Trigger warning for everything. Everyone should have a trigger warning for anything you could possibly think there's a trigger warning for. I need you to have it. Child abuse, molestation, incest, drug use, addiction, suicidal ideation. Just be warned before we dive into the waters.

[Brian Safi]

Multiple ghost riders. I'm very curious if we know anything about that, do you think?

[Ronna Glickman]

I thought. I got the feeling that maybe she didn't.

[Brian Safi]

There were a couple sentences, and I even highlighted one where I thought there's no chance she wrote that sentence. Something about how vines in the jungle will grow back after you chop through them. And you just think, really? When was she thinking about that? In Utah?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I fully think this was her. This read to me like someone who recently realized they had a bad childhood started one day of therapy. And the poems are flowing because when I. When I realized life had been bad. Oh, the poems.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, the poems. Oh, I don't think anyone wrote the poems but her. Yeah, right.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, you think? Okay, so you think the other writing was like a co author.

[Brian Safi]

Some of the. Paragraph, paragraph, paragraph. We got to finish this chapter.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

I feel like somebody came in and she said, I've got four chapters for this especially because this four or five times in the book where she says, I called so and so and said, I need some jokes. And, I mean, it's no surprise that comedians use other writers to write their jokes. That's how. Why Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld had the relationship that they used to write material for. You know, Larry wrote material for Jerry and then wrote the show for Jerry. This is normal. Of course, you don't go up on the Oscars or on whatever and you write all your own jokes. But I just felt like there must have been. I mean, it's such a minor thing. Who cares? But I just felt like she must have been under a little bit of deadline pressure here and there and said, throw some money at the. You know, I need to fill out this chapter. Just bulk up the paragraphs a little bit.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I gotta say, if someone else. If a co author or ghostwriter worked on this, they should be fired and banned from books forever. If someone helped. And this is what it is.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. I'd love to see who else they wrote for.

[Ronna Glickman]

This was. This was what Ronna and I would call a parking lot email.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

Where someone is just so pissed, they park and they just send the email. Right. They. They don't take a beat or a breath. They just send.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes, that is the perfect description. Yes. This woman's on fire. So overall. I just want your overall thought on this book before we get into details, like big takeaways, big headlines, your experience.

[Brian Safi]

Okay, you want to go first, Brian?

[Ronna Glickman]

I'll be honest. I thought it was thrilling. I really. I actually think I loved it if it were written by somebody else. Like. Like there is. I have no tolerance for Roseanne in my life at this point, but, I mean, I can appreciate what a genius she was and also how truly. And she says it in the book, and I'm sure that there's probably some more truth in the middle there. But I'm only impressed at how much she believed in herself, what she did and how not being in the industry at all and then getting into it in full force, how she just knew exactly what her vision was. I think that's totally fascinating. And I really hung on every word. I was totally enthralled. Felt like I was on a roller coaster in a fun way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

If I didn't know her the past few years, I would think I'd read that again.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I love that.

[Brian Safi]

Again. You would read it again. Wow. The very first chapter, I wondered if I would be able to read any of the rest of the book after the Preface because it was very clearly written. I thought before knowing or remembering that she had this at one point said she had. What is it called? Disassociative personality disorder. So when I was reading the first chapter, which I think was the preface, I thought, I'm not sure I'll be able to get through this because maybe you skipped the preface, Brian, which would have been the smart thing to do.

[Ronna Glickman]

No, I didn't. Cover to cover, baby.

[Brian Safi]

Seem very clearly written, as you say, by a freshly therapized look. There's no question that somehow Roseanne was birthed from something. So I don't know whether she just came here that way or with her family was deeply troubled and surgery certain ways where whether they ended up actually being deeply troubled in the ways in which she said that they were the incest and molestation etc. She apparently goes back and recants this after she writes this book. And so because I immediately after the preface said, wait a minute, I need to go back to Roseanne's timeline because there was a time when Roseanne was living au courant in all of our lives. I mean, with the national anthem and then this and the that, she was Sinead o' Connor having her moment here and there and everywhere. And it turns out she, she then goes back and recants this. She makes up with the parents and she says that this never happened. At least if I'm to believe what I read.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wow.

[Brian Safi]

And that was shocking to me because the whole book is this takedown of these parents who it sounds like was sort of terrible working class parents. But then there are these kind of moments throughout the book where she gets the Tonight show and the first people she calls are her parents, of course. And so there are these kind of moments and they're excited for her. She doesn't call them to say I and I called my parents to say, you said I'd never get this. And I did. She says, I called. And the first people I called my parents. And then she sort of says like, don't ask me why. You know, she does, you know, and then, then, then, then that, you know, not going to get into that. But I couldn't believe how truly, as you say, her incredible self confidence was one of the things that I took away. How much of the story is padded or not padded because she's the busiest person in the world. In addition to being a manic pothead, cokehead, whatever, at some point she's just getting everything done, including having children over and over again. And her career is just gangbusters there's no question about it. She's a heat seeking missile. But I think one of my biggest takeaways from reading the book was I always had a very negative opinion of her relationship with Tom Arnold. I always thought that he was a freeloader, which I'm not saying he wasn't, but I always thought that's what that was about. And I actually think there was a dimension to which they were perfectly suited as codependents who wanted the same thing. She was much more successful and the fact that she thought he was funny almost blew my mind off that she would watch his sets and think he was funny. But it did seem like they were sort of twin flames for the time that they were together.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. I mean, listen, Sinead o' Connor, I know was in the press a lot at the same time and was really mistreated. I do think very different case than Roseanne. Even though they do share a history of abuse and speaking out about abuse. I think it's different. But let's put a pin in that and we will circle back to it later because I gotta tell you, I'm with Brian. I fucking loved Roseanne's book. I loved it because this, this is a woman on fire. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Teen mom Z. My mom texted me a selfie and she said, I need makeup help. And I said, good, because now I know what I'm getting you. For mother's day. I got her a bunch of products from thrive cosmetics. Let me just tell you what I got her. The brilliant eye brightener, the deluxe mini liquid lash volumizer mascara. I also got her the instant brow fix and two lip filler long wearing plumping lip liners. I cannot recommend these products more. They're vegan, they're cruelty free. And thrive cosmetics donates to causes that really matter with every single purchase. If you just get one product, get the brilliant eye brightener mini in Stella Champagne shimmer is my favorite shade. You're going to change your eye game. It also has over 40,000 five star reviews. So don't just take my word for it. Discover your new trusty favorite from thrive cosmetics. Luxury beauty that gives back. You can get an exclusive 20 off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E T-I C S.com glamorous for 20% off your first order. Go celebrate your teen momsy and also get some for yourself. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Like, there's so much coke in this and. Yeah. And parking lot email. Is it. The trauma and the parents stuff really, really deeply spoke to me because it rang true of the people who, you know, are so traumatized by people that they are buying them houses and calling their parents. They don't want to see anything. And there's even a storyline in the book where the sister is like, hey, dad molested me. And Roseanne's the only one who will stand up for her. And then the sister reunites with the parents and takes it back. And Roseanne is like, why is she doing this? Like, we all know that it happened. And so the fact that she takes it back later, it just reeks of, like, the deepest, most fucked up trauma. And Ryan, you said something. You were like, well, I don't know what head trauma this is, but I don't know if you saw in the prologue, she gets hit by a car.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And she gets her head. I'm serious.

[Ronna Glickman]

I forgot about her head.

[Brian Safi]

She's never the same. Hit by.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And she says, I was never the same after that. And I think we really are looking at someone with a really intense head trauma try and survive life. And I know that I. I'm not saying this to, like, be silly. I'm like, yes, this woman had a blunt force head trauma and was sent to a mental hospital. And when she walked out of it, she married the worst man on earth and started her life. And it's hard for me, too, because a working class queen, a woman in comedy at that time who put on the only show on TV that even resembled my life at all. I just. She was my hero for so long. So I love reading a book before she becomes the devil.

[Brian Safi]

And let's also not forget, she was funny. Yes, she was so funny.

[Ronna Glickman]

Show was by far in that era, the best show on television by a mile.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. And I went back and watched some of it and it actually, like, moves pretty beautifully and has some beautiful acting moments in it that I didn't even realize.

[Brian Safi]

But the level of paranoia also during the show everyone is. I guess he was just working for himself. And it's like, yes, Rosie. And I mean, I don't mean that everyone's a schema in the court. I mean, she was obsessed with that. Obviously they paired her with someone she didn't like. But she needed an enemy in every situation in order to make it through any situation.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Brian Safi]

This woman, I don't know how she ever slept. She was just in a constant state.

[Ronna Glickman]

Of conflict, chewing through cement every moment of her day. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. Actually, let's read this. So pretty early on in the book, she's talking about getting her show Roseanne. And this actually ties in with like Margaret Cho's episode where it's like you get your own show based off of your stand up act. Your person we have never put on television and they immediately assign you this white dude who writes it all for you and is like, you obviously, like can't do your own show. So her person is Matt Williams and she writes that in rapid succession. Turned my show into the little boy's story told from the child's point of view. And then the Dad's witness quote, Home Improvement, which he likewise created. So this man had created Home Improvement, took Roseanne's story and then wrote it from her son's point of view as a multicam. He could not get it into his head that a woman was the main character and that she was not passive. He couldn't understand that the female character could drive scenes, that the family functioned because of her, not in spite of her. I gave him books on feminist theory, talked into tape recorders for hours, lectured him on motherhood and matriarchy for hours and hours, but he never caught on. After Matt's second draft, blue chunks, I rewrote it, rewrote every scene, taking stuff from my act. Wrote the sister's part, punched up the daughter's part once again in a pivotal scene. Matt wanted the son to be driving force. He didn't get that I wanted a totally female driven show. Where did that Roseanne go? That is. That's revolutionary in that year.

[Ronna Glickman]

Truly revolutionary. Like, I don't think in that time, especially because the 80s seemed to be very regressive.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

In that way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

I have to be honest with you, there are moments when I read this when I thought to myself, would it have been enough for me just to be a TV star and go along with all the bullshit?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What did you answer for yourself? Were you like, could I do it?

[Ronna Glickman]

I think now in this moment I could.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But now in this moment, when the world's on fire, you're like, fuck it.

[Ronna Glickman]

Fuck it. But I will say, if I were her age and I had never worked professionally before, really on camera, I don't think I would have done it. I don't think I would have had the guts at that moment to say, absolutely fucking not. You're all psychotic. I don't care how long you've been here. That's not what I'm doing, Period. The end. Yes, I might have had small battles, but I wouldn't have been punching through doors every single day with the veracity that she did. And by the way, she was right to do it, frankly.

[Brian Safi]

Okay. But I do want to just. This is going to sound very strange, but I just want to remind everyone that the Golden Girls came before Roseanne. Yeah, okay.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yes.

[Brian Safi]

And Mod came before Roseanne. What really was revolutionary about Roseanne was the way that she depicted working class life and a woman that was at the center of that family. And also Roseanne was Roseanne. She was the show. There's no question about it. But she's also a narcissist on an order that is. I mean, she's like a Roman emperor. She's just on a level. And it is unbelievably fascinating to watch. And so I'm not taking anything away from her as a feminist.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

But it was not the first female driven sitcom. This guy may have been the wrong guy that they hired. And I absolutely believe what she says about, oh, it'll be about the child and you'll be the mother. But there's also the part where Roseanne had never acted for a minute and she famously was a terrible actress and then sort of started to create in the way that Seinfeld did create her own character and brand where everyone just loved Roseanne and what she was doing in those moments and got better and better as she did it. Yeah, but that would not be Roseanne's experience of what happened on the show.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

No, for sure. And I do want to note Designing Women, Kate and Ally, Mama's House, Facts of Life. There were so many shows that women were the lead of. That's not what is revolutionary to me. What's revolutionary is that she was also the creative lead. It was based on her life. She was the engine for it, and it was working class. But what I think, especially about Roseanne is that she was the first woman in a curvy body to really lead a show. You know, she's in a non straight size. She is standing up for all of America's women in a way that they hadn't let, you know, women take up space before, which I think was huge.

[Brian Safi]

Yes. And who was married and was married.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And she was the lead, and she was the star. And Roseanne was like, I am here. I am real. I am not like a size zero. And I think that also was, like, so phenomenal that it's, like, totally easy to think that some dude was like, you're not the star of your own show.

[Brian Safi]

No. But it was also crazy that they made a keep him for 13 episodes. But on the. On the other hand, as anyone that's ever made talent television, if they didn't keep him for 13 episodes, she might never have a show because if he had to leave after, I mean, whatever. Tom Werner Massey. Cassie. I don't know what the truth is about them trying to keep the show from being shut down versus what Roseanne wanted, because there's no doubt that as much as Roseanne knew herself as a character, et cetera, et cetera, it was amateur hour for her to show up and say, well, do it the. You know, and one of my favorite little lines just in I love the. I always love, like, we read the letters on our show. I like to see what's in between that we're not seeing. And so I don't mean to seem like I'm devil's advocating everything Roseanne said, because there's no question that her career is non parel. I mean, unbelievable. But she does about 10 pages on how this guy is trying to ruin her life and how she starts talking on the hot mic and everything and saying, I'm gonna get you fired. I mean, you can just see her doing it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

You have to tell people more about that.

[Brian Safi]

So they're recording. And of course, this is indicative of the environment that she was in, which is she was a loose cannon and they were worried about her.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, right.

[Brian Safi]

And so what they're doing is, you know, and she. There's nothing in the book about, like, what time Roseanne got to work or anything like that, you know, but in any event, though, she does say Tom was late, and it sounds like she was non person because she said he was late, and then he was late for the rest of his life.

[Ronna Glickman]

But, oh, she made a lot of excuses.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, we're gonna get to Tom Arnold.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, no, it's gonna be. It's gonna be. And then we'll talk about the wedding and Hawaii. That was. She said she thought she hated Mexican music, and then she realized she Hated Hawaiian music.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That's right.

[Brian Safi]

But when they record a multi camera show, the boom mics that they hold over the people so that they can record their audio, whoever's, whoever is talking at that time, the sound guys trying to get your lines. And then there's also big microphones over the audience which are capturing the studio audience laughter.

[Ronna Glickman]

The laughs, Ronna, the laughs.

[Brian Safi]

They need the laughs. But they also are getting sort of like everybody's audio at the same time. You would think that those mics would only be turned on. And this is, of course, a famous trope. We've all heard Sylvester Stallone, cradle the. Cradle the ball, Stroke the shaft, cradle the ball. Which is people that don't turn off their microphones and that the sound was recorded and what escaped from people's trailers, et cetera, et cetera. So actors are very aware of when their mics are on or at least actors that are professional actors. And Roseanne was not thinking about whether or not the mic was on overhead because she was new to a set. And so they had that mic on so that they could hear what she was saying all the time, basically. And it seemed like he was keeping score. This Matt Williams about what Roseanne was being was apparently belching and fighting the whole time through all of these recordings. Etc.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. Like, that is the character they've written. Again, not surprising.

[Brian Safi]

So, like, she's inspired by, you know.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And so anyway, she started to take the opportunity to speak into the mic all the time because she knew he was listening to her now saying, you're gonna get fired. I'm gonna get you fired.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She wrote in here, she said, you, I'm gonna get you fired. You. You're gonna go to hell. And she would yell at, you know.

[Brian Safi]

All day long until the other actor. And then she would just snap into her part. And then. But there was this little thing they said about how she said, well, I was a standup, so I used to have to do two shows a night. So I would, you know, kind of skate through the first show and then the big show was the big show. And she said that she didn't realize for some reason they were shooting two episodes a day. And she, for some reason didn't think that the first episode was important. She only kept herself. She only kept herself for the second show.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wait, I thought the first one was rehearsal and this second one was tape.

[Ronna Glickman]

The way she worded it, she said, we did two shows for tape night.

[Brian Safi]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But I thought it was like they're doing the same show. Twice to see which scenes they use.

[Ronna Glickman]

Maybe that is what she meant. That blew my mind when I was like, are they doing two episodes every Friday?

[Brian Safi]

So then she said he was the one that all the TV experience. Why didn't he just say to me, roseanne, you have to try Hatter in the first one. It's important. Yeah, but it was like as though that guy could say a word to her.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, it was hysterical. The idea that he could go up to her and say, rose. And you need to try how to. You know, you're not giving you all.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like flipping the flop, you know, Absolute throw down. Like, this is like, Ryan Murphy, where are you? Why aren't we fictionalizing the first season of Roseanne? Actually, you know what? Him. We'll write it. Okay. So she wrote things like this. I wanted to create a real woman mother for tv for political reasons. As an activist. I wanted to hear see world weary pop culture hating woman whose complaint was timeless and purely female. I create and feed the world and I do it for millennia to my own exclusion and demise. And then later, she writes, males have a very hard time seeing outside of themselves. Generally, they lack the wisdom and vision to include themselves in the world of women. It is my humble opinion that this is why they should stay home.

[Ronna Glickman]

Frame it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Frame it.

[Brian Safi]

Incredible.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Tattoo it on my ass. Except do we send it to Trump, let him know, you got to remove her from maga. She don't belong with you.

[Brian Safi]

I think you read the book.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think you read the book, Found her out. Well, okay, so a few things happen on the show where she tax an enemy's list to the front of her door.

[Brian Safi]

Very Martin Luther, you know, very, very. Taping it to the church door.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I mean, really, I was inspired.

[Brian Safi]

95 theses. Right? She just. She just. She just hammers it right to the door and she puts everyone's name on it. Not. And then she puts a check next to the people she's getting rid of and N A to the people who better watch the ass.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And then nothing next to the people she likes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And one by one, as these people get fired, she'd be like, did it. I mean, listen, I have an enemies list on the front of your door. That's new.

[Ronna Glickman]

No, Also, can you imagine being an N. A?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Don't bring her a coffee with one sugar.

[Ronna Glickman]

And remember, she used to make all her writers wear numbers. She's not.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What?

[Ronna Glickman]

That was in an interview she did with New York magazine like 10 years ago. She used to make them all wear.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Numbers and how she liked them.

[Ronna Glickman]

Like your number, maybe, but she would call them like, hey, number four, number two, number five, number six. Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Wow. Well, that sounds like head injury stuff. She's a. You mean she's sort of like a synesthesia queen.

[Ronna Glickman]

How so?

[Brian Safi]

Well, just the num. Attach a number to a person. Yeah. And that she. She can't take the time to remember your name. But if she. If you wear a number.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

It's also just. I mean, it's full gulag stuff, too. You know, it's just dehumanization. Yeah, it is.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But also, like, she to. I'm not defending it because it's horrible behavior, but like, in her act, like, people didn't want a woman on stage talking about, like, sex talking the way. Like, the way she did. So she learned to be so rude and mean to anyone just to, like, get on stage. Which obviously plays into this. Okay, let's talk about the Tom Arnold of it all so we can talk about Tom Arnold and her show Dringo. Here's your husband, Jaler. Tom Arnold becomes Roseanne's manager. Her husband, juror, Obviously, that explains a lot of career decisions. So the front cover of the book.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yes, yes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Actually, this is one of my favorite memoir covers ever because it has a point of view, a joke, a style. It is Roseanne sitting on Tom Arnold's lap as he motorboats her.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She's dressed like a romance.

[Brian Safi]

It's a bodice ripper.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. Thank you. Yes. It looks like a harlequin novel cover. Like, you know, he's got a Gaston ponytail, a big white fluffy shirt.

[Brian Safi]

And they're not in this skinny face.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

No, they're not. And which, again, I love.

[Brian Safi]

They talk all about their yo yo dieting non stop.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She puts pictures in and it's like. And here's where we were on this diet. And her name listed on this book. Roseanne Arnold. Yeah. She is heavily in the wifey stage here.

[Brian Safi]

Jennifer Affleck.

[Ronna Glickman]

Did she do that?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Didn't Jlo Chang?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, she did. And on Instagram, I love that.

[Ronna Glickman]

That's like Robin Wright Penn did, too. I thought of her the other day when reading this.

[Brian Safi]

At least she was Robin Wright Penn, not Robin Penn. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, yeah, Exactly. Okay, so let's talk about Tom Arnold, who Roseanne is married to a guy named Bill, who is a guy she meets when she's a teenager and literally, like, left the mental hospital, which we'll get into, meets Bill has this life. Bill has already cheated on her And. And called her fat and been so horrible to her.

[Brian Safi]

Terrible.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And then when she starts doing comedy, she meets Tom Arnold. And Tom Arnold is. She makes it sound like he's, like, this hilarious comedian on the scene, but is that.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah, we learned that part of his routine was killing goldfish on stage. Eating them and eating.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And she was like, this is hilarious.

[Ronna Glickman]

More of a shock jock is what I'm picturing.

[Brian Safi]

Like, it was. He was playing a fake magician. Yeah, he was doing a fake magician. If you could think of anything worse than a fake magician that kills animals.

[Ronna Glickman]

How about a fake magician that's addicted to cocaine?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

And that could be worse.

[Brian Safi]

I think those. That's probably implied, right?

[Ronna Glickman]

Probably.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

They start. But they are. They really are twin flames. Like, this is a couple where you're like, you should have stayed together. I do think you were meant to be completely.

[Brian Safi]

They should have just driven each other over with each other's cars for 25 years.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Just back and forth, taking turns until it took.

[Brian Safi]

But Tom Idol kind of becomes like, friends with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Remember from True Lies, Eventually, Tom Arnold tries to clean up. Oh, and he also gets a much younger wife at some point. Like a skinny blonde wife at some point.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Well, who.

[Brian Safi]

I don't know if he's still with her, but, yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I don't know if you know his latest credit, but when Armie Hammer debuted his podcast, Tom Arnold was his first guest. And who listened to all three hours of those episodes? You're looking at her.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Because we read.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, I'd love a little just minisode on that.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

You know, we read Armie Hammer's mom's memoir, and I. So I needed it for that. But Tom Arnold went through a lot of sexual abuse as a child.

[Brian Safi]

Well, that's what you start to learn, is that Roseanne was like his mother base. I mean, I'm not saying Roseanne was an abuser. I just mean they describe his childhood, and it's like the childhood that Roseanne's children are having. The parents are out doing a band. They don't care at all, you know? Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. And Roseanne, I'm. You know, she says in this book, like, she was molested by her father, so. And that her mom did horrible things to her. So I think they really found each other in this, like. Like nightmare world that they then got a lot of power from. And there were times when I wrote, I have no idea what is going on, because the amount of time she's trying to get Tom Arnold a job. But he doesn't have a job. Then he's an ep, but then he's our manager. But then he gets fired.

[Brian Safi]

We're gonna fire you. What.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What's going on with Tom Arnold and Roseanne, like, on the show.

[Ronna Glickman]

I mean, not to mention the fact the thing that shocked me is just before they got married, he is openly selling stories about her to National Enquirer. That was. That was the moment where I was like, oh, there's something wrong with her. Like, that is. And she sort of glosses over and explains it away when she was like, he was broke. I would have done the same thing. And also, I was a bitch to him. And it's sort of like, I guess. But to sell stories about you and then be like, it's okay. I love you. That is that, like you said, that is some deep trauma bonding to get over that.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, yeah. And you're missing a really important detail. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by. Tic Tac Summer tastes like Tic Tac. Tantalize your taste buds this sunny season with Citrus Adventure and orange, two everyday flavors that bring summer in every. Tic Tac Citrus Adventure is a yummy, vibrant medley of lemon, lime and mandarin. And Tic Tac Orange is the perfect mix of tangy and sweet. Visit us at Tiktacusa on social to refresh your summer with TikTok.

[Brian Safi]

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[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. They get married and they're getting tattoos on their asses. Matching tattoos on their asses. And that's when he says, roseanne, baby, I gotta tell you, your husband Bill wasn't lying to you did sell those articles to the National Enquirer. I needed to make rent and buy drugs after. After the tattoo. Yeah, after tattoo. Which again, like, you have cursed yourselves with butt tattoos. Like, this is like you.

[Brian Safi]

But she doesn't care completely.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Yeah. And so this Tom Arnold stuff, I mean, he's a big part of the book. You were mentioning the family stuff. Rhonda, like, Roseanne would write stuff about how Bill was such a terrible father And a drunk and tried to take all her money. And then how, when Tom Arnold came in, he really took over this father position. But then one day, she writes that her daughter Jenny came out of her bedroom screaming, like, he's beating me. Meaning Tom Arnold. And Roseanne writes, he wasn't beating her. Can you believe my daughters? They were so dramatic.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. The same thing that's going on with her father. That is a thread that comes back in the book three or four times. The thing with the sister. And then Roseanne says, I believe you. And then they say it happened to her daughter Jess. And then I. I mean, that it's just this totally unbroken cycle and behavior.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

But it's the same thing that's happening in her house. Total neglect. No one's raising these children.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, and she's not. She doesn't acknowledge it in the book. Like, she talks about how she wants them to have a good childhood. She talks about what a bad childhood she had, and then she writes things about them. And you're like, you're. You think you're doing a better job because, like, they come on the private plane with you, but, like, you're not doing a better job job.

[Brian Safi]

And then she says her children were incorrigible. You know, she sort of had to quit at some point.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

It just wasn't gonna. She wasn't gonna be able to fix them.

[Ronna Glickman]

It did feel like that. It did feel like she couldn't really bear to be around her kids that much and didn't really. I got the sense that she didn't really know them until they were adults.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And she also. She wrote things about them where I was like, do not write this about a teenager who's gonna read it in the book. Like, this one. Put on weight so that she wouldn't be sexualized. And this. It's like. Like, okay, I'm gonna tell a story that I've been embarrassed to tell, and we might have to cut it out. Actually, you know what? I'll leave it in, but only for Patreon members and Apple subscription subscribers, wherever you can subscribe. Sorry, you guys, but, like, if I'm gonna take the heat for this, I'm doing it behind a paywall. And listen, we put a lot of work into this podcast, and if I'm gonna get yelled at, it's going behind a paywall. Okay, so let's go a little bit back into the past where Roseanne talks about how she grows up in Utah in Mormon country.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Same girlfriend. And she's Jewish, which is like, she's very much a minority in Utah. And like having grown up in Utah like that, a very judged and persecuted minority in Mormon lands. Like that was not.

[Ronna Glickman]

You grew up in Utah?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, for eight years.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, I thought you were from New Mexico.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I. We lived in six different states, so one of them was Utah. New Mexico is the last one. We got there when I was 17 and my family's been in New Mexico till this day. But yeah, no, Utah for eight years.

[Brian Safi]

Salt Lake City area or some other weird St. George.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

The Mormon capital of the world.

[Brian Safi]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh my.

[Brian Safi]

Is it down near sort of Arizona?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, it's like six hours. It. So basically my stepdad was a river rafting guide down the Grand Canyon.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, amazing.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Is it? If you really dive into that job, it is what? Seasonal. So it's a really nice way of saying mostly didn't have a job.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But didn't mean we didn't have to move to Utah, which is where they docked the boats. So anyways, right when she's talking about growing up in Salt Lake and being Jewish and having brown curly hair, I'm like, this is like the blondest, most blue eyed Mormon country. Like, you're very ostracized. And so.

[Brian Safi]

Well, they're all. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And then she gets pregnant as a teenager, her parents ostracize her and she gives the daughter up for adoption and she names her Alicia. Yes. And then when she's an adult and it, the timeline is like she's on Roseanne. She finds her daughter who is now named Brandy, and they reconnect with an eye. Did you guys.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And Alicia to Brandy with an eye is a real.

[Ronna Glickman]

It's a tone shift.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's a tone shift.

[Ronna Glickman]

It's a game changer. It's a game changer.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's a sliding doors moment. And so did you guys know that Roseanne had an adopted daughter?

[Ronna Glickman]

Do you want to know something? I did know this and I remember reading an article in People magazine back in the day, standing in front of my candelabra that I asked my parents for in my bedroom.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. Which is. One of them is still there.

[Ronna Glickman]

I was.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

You're perfect.

[Ronna Glickman]

13. I was 13. It was from the Heiress, the hesitated Havilland movie from 1940. So anyway, so I'm reading my People magazine that my mom's best friend who was funky red hair, one white stripe in the Rana lover, she used to give me her old People magazines.

[Brian Safi]

She knew she was your ally.

[Ronna Glickman]

Oh, for sure she knew. She also called me in a Panic. One day when I was like I think about to go to college and she goes, brian, you have to see Hugh Jackman in the Boy from Oz. It'll really resonate.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay. She's an ally.

[Brian Safi]

Can you imagine keeping your gossip magazines for your friends? 12 year old son.

[Ronna Glickman]

Son.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

So funny.

[Ronna Glickman]

Anyway, I remember reading about this adopted daughter and they told the adopted daughter, you know, you're going to meet your mother. We, your mother wants to meet you. And you know, she's very famous. And the daughter who was a singer, a good singer said if it's not Bette Midler, I'm going to be so pissed.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, no.

[Ronna Glickman]

And she was like actually sort of disappointed.

[Brian Safi]

Well, she was a redheaded child also and Jewish.

[Ronna Glickman]

She thought that Bette Midler was the famous mother.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

I don't think she was disappointed when she met Roseanne. That's how I knew. I remember being like, God, I would be disappointed too. Bette Midler seems so fun.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But yeah, also Roseanne's gonna be famous for being the worst singer of the national anthem in history. Is actually the worst person.

[Brian Safi]

You're right.

[Ronna Glickman]

It's your worst nightmare. If you're a Bette Midler fan.

[Brian Safi]

What about the two different size ears? She said that's how she would know her daughter because her mother had two different size ears and her daughter had two different size ears.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I love that you knew that because I was so surprised by the storyline that I. I didn't know it more.

[Brian Safi]

And I have to say I was very moved during that passage where they said they went to the. What? Who knows what hotel. It's not there anymore. The Wilshire. Some. The. Was it Wilshire or. I don't know. Anyway, some hotel in west. The Westwood Maki. I don't know what. And they went there to the coffee shop, her and her sister Geraldine who had a beard. What? And was mad at anyone that thought her beard was disgusting.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And if anyone's wondering, we're talking about an actual physical beard.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Not fuzz.

[Brian Safi]

Or not a person who pretended to be a husband.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And they went to have a cup of coffee before they were gonna meet the child upstairs or the 18 year old, I guess nearly 18 year old. And then they were in the coffee shop at the same time. And so they ended up running into each other before they met, but they'd.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Never seen each other. So it was like cosmically like they.

[Brian Safi]

Knew and that she just started grabbing her and saying how much she had missed her all these years and how sad. I mean it was. It was very moving.

[Ronna Glickman]

All of that was very moving. The passage when she knew she'd have to give up her daughter and then calling her parents about it was devastating.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Because she didn't want to, and her parents made her, and she had no support to try and keep her daughter. So it really would.

[Brian Safi]

Then they pretended that they would have kept the baby. Oh. Oh, you already got rid of her. Oh, okay. Well, and better luck next time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Do you remember when her mom meets her daughter who got adopted for the first time? She says to her, don't worry, we don't hate you. Ma' am. You have gotten the narrative wrong. You've been reading the wrong book. No one was thinking that completely. What? She should hate your ass, you psycho. Yeah, well, okay, so there's getting hit by a car. There's this. There's a mental institution kind of all in the same moment that I cannot decipher timeline wise, guys.

[Brian Safi]

She is going home on weekends from the Mendel Institution, which is interesting. Yeah. I don't know if it was like school, but, you know, she was good.

[Ronna Glickman]

That's what they do in Germany. If you. If. Even if you're a murderer in prison, you can work your way up to. First of all, they give you a studio apartment and in jail.

[Brian Safi]

And second, on a furlough completely.

[Ronna Glickman]

And second of all, after a while, you're allowed to have your weekends free and do anything you want and then come back on Monday.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Do you know off the top of their head what their recidivism rate is? Because I'm just so curious how this works out.

[Ronna Glickman]

I'll be honest with you. They really, really do.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Focus on rehabilitation.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What an incredible. That's incredible. God damn, I hate it here.

[Brian Safi]

But I'd like to know how many of those murderers murder on the weekend.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, she calls. It's her words to say mental institution. I have no. It. I don't. I don't know what type of program this was, so I have no idea. But basically, the moment she gets out, she meets Bill. And just the one thing I want to say about Bill is that when she starts doing stand up, he starts doing stand up, too. And I said, you can just. Just right off Bill, you idiot.

[Ronna Glickman]

That is such a type of guy. Like, we all know that guy.

[Brian Safi]

She does. I circled that to where she says just very, like half a sentence says. And then he at one point started to become a comedian and was like.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I'm just as funny as you. I'm funnier than you. It's like, all right, Bill.

[Brian Safi]

Well, he wasn't doing the standup at that time. It seemed like he started to do it after she moved to Los Angeles. But he was stealing her jokes to his friends.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes, that's right.

[Brian Safi]

She would say something funny and he'd repeat it to his friends and sell it as his own.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

A very, very cool guy is what we're saying. And she's a mom, she's raising her children, but she also has to work. And now is where I want to read a passage that we all must discuss where she is waitressing at the Bennigans.

[Brian Safi]

Oh, the Bennigan. The Bennigan's moment.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

I gotta say, this book is small but mighty, mighty.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

This is. This is page 44.

[Brian Safi]

There isn't a moment that goes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Things got dangerously out of hand working at Bennegan's. On my break, I would go out to my customers cars with them. Needless to say, I was on a sexual acting out binge. As soon as I got to Cocktail City, it was wham, bam, thank you, ma' am. Worst of all, I was charging for it. Most of the time. I couldn't remember how many sets of bleary eyes I tried looking into for some sign of life outside of a blood engorged organ. I could feel myself slipping away into the foam of the sea. Pulling away like loose rock falling deeper and deeper into a well that started at the back of my head. Bed. I stopped sleeping almost totally at this time. Yet I was hardly ever tired. Sex became the most horrifying and disgusting thing in the world to me. And I couldn't bear for my husband to touch me. Then she said I would wake up when the money was handed to me and think, am I being a now? Memories would drift in and out. Foggily of times in 10th grade when I would find myself walking across town at three in the morning barefoot and nearly naked. Yeah, she doesn't expand on that. And then lower, she said, says the sex was one thing, but I used to eat off of people's plates too. Yeah, chow down on a stranger's leftovers.

[Brian Safi]

I forgot about this.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And then go vomit. And I got trench mouth from that. I don't know if I got it from eating people's nachos or having sex with them. But I do know that they promptly laid me off at the lounge when my teeth kept bleeding.

[Ronna Glickman]

I gotta tell you, it comes out of nowhere. And then after that word, she wipes her hands clean of it. Never mentioned again. No, we don't Hear more. She doesn't expect. I literally had to read that section twice because I was like, sorry, what's happening? Like, no lead up. And also no calling it what it was.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She's like, we're doing sex work, we're getting trench mouth. You're having memories to 10th grade, walking home naked, and you're not gonna circle back to what that is.

[Ronna Glickman]

She doesn't. No revisiting.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

No expanding teeth are bleeding from trench mouth. Is everyone listening still? Okay? Have you pulled over?

[Brian Safi]

Clearly never went to a dentist either.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. And this right after this one, Ben against fires her. She's like, you know, I'm gonna try stand up. And to that I say, absolutely. That is exactly.

[Ronna Glickman]

By the way, remember she was stiffing all her customers.

[Brian Safi]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

She just wouldn't bring back change.

[Brian Safi]

She just wouldn't. She said, probably because I never brought change.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yes.

[Brian Safi]

She just was daring them. If the check was $6 and they gave her a 10, she just dared them to ask for their change.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Yes.

[Brian Safi]

Yes. I mean, this is pretty great.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What? 1994, this is published.

[Brian Safi]

Hysterical.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think people must have been writing her off so much at this point because this is after the national anthem that they just. Right was. I don't know. I don't know what was going on in culture.

[Brian Safi]

She also sold 425,000 copies of her other book. So she must have thought this deal must have. She must have also just thought, if I sell 250, that's money that I don't have, so that's fine.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And I gotta say, the first book, burn it down. Not like this at all. A lot harder to read, a lot boring, a lot less. And now hear me out when I say that one's not as well written. So just in context, like, the other one has things like, I thought I'd have more to say about Mormons. Guess I don't. Anyways, now I'm in my hotel. Like, it's not.

[Ronna Glickman]

Is it like a comedy book?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

No, it's like she's just starting to get her break and someone asked her for a book and she just like tried to fill a woman word count. But it is very feminist. And so then here's where she's at in life after the Bennegans. At this time, I was, A, working in a feminist bookstore. B, doing standup comedy. C, walking the streets or picking up audience members to fleece for sex and money. D, going home to be a full time housewife and mother. E, writing for a lesbian feminist Publication called Big Mama Rag. Shout out to Big Mama Rag in Denver.

[Ronna Glickman]

Oh my God.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

FG Conducting two full time affairs and H. Trying to write for heavy metal magazine. Busy, busy, busy lady. Luckily I was somehow able to. Able to do them all.

[Brian Safi]

Really. Can we circle back to D? Full time housewife and mother. She's having a manic episode. She's screwing everyone all over town. She's writing for two different magazines. She's doing stand up. She's being a waitress. But she's a full time housewife and mother. All that means is she lives at.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Her house or does it mean she's doing all the cooking and cleaning in the half an hour of the day after you do blow?

[Brian Safi]

I don't think she is because then there's a story about Diane Ford or whatever her name was, the stand up whose house that she was living in and that she left it such a pigsty, stole her car and then she said, well, real nice of Diane to not tell me she was coming home a day early. That was her take on what happened.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Because she had just gotten her break. Right? She was just on.

[Brian Safi]

She was busy. She was just on Carson. Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

That night.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

I have to say that ABCD list is truly like if John Cassavetes were still alive. Or John Cameron Mitchell, who is still alive.

[Brian Safi]

Yes, he sure is.

[Ronna Glickman]

Or what's the guy who did like happiness.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Like just that section. We don't even have to get to the fact that she's Roseanne Barr one day.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Just that is like. Well, she'll win best Actress whoever plays that.

[Brian Safi]

So true.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Absolutely.

[Brian Safi]

So true.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Absolutely. It's also, it's written like it's multiple choice. A B. Like you pick one. She really should have numbered it because like she is doing all of them but her stand up because she's living such a brutal life. It's like, why her stand up is so good? She talks about how she would host at a strip club, which great gig, would love it.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And then she would do a bit where she would come out at the end of the night and be like, these strippers hate you. Have you ever thought of that? You're all just John's assholes with money and they're working you. You lose.

[Brian Safi]

So good.

[Ronna Glickman]

And then she adds, and they're all lesbians idiots.

[Brian Safi]

And then. And then makes out with her co host.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

That is so fucking fierce. I have to tell you.

[Brian Safi]

That is good.

[Ronna Glickman]

That is so good.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

So yeah. And you're like, oh, in night. That's what 1990 or 8, 1988. Like that is.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wouldn't that have blown your balls off if you saw.

[Ronna Glickman]

Oh, my God. Because that's also like peak minivan going to the strip club. Like father of whatever.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

And just her calling them out that way.

[Brian Safi]

It also sort of explains her love for Sandra Bernhardt who then ends up on Roseanne because you feel like that there is a twin flame there as well.

[Ronna Glickman]

The costing thing in the, in your face.

[Brian Safi]

Just the like and the, and the.

[Ronna Glickman]

Pointing out and the feminism. So.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes, absolutely. And so. Yeah, so that's how she's going to get big. She's going to get Carson and then she's going to like get this show when she goes to Hollywood. She's got Bill still with her. She's having an affair with Tom Arnold who also has a fiance.

[Brian Safi]

But is she having an affair with Tom? The way she describes it, which of course is not true at all, is that they're basically having a slumber party every time they run into each other, watching each other's sets, doing tons of coke. But my favorite is when she says that she would only do it when she saw him. So that was whenever she was on the road, every sort of once a month or every six weeks. And that she was really surprised to hear that he was partying all the time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Time.

[Brian Safi]

A single guy who was a stand up on the. That she didn't really. It didn't occur to her that when she got on the ride and got off the ride, he was still on the ride.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. And he has a huge, huge, pretty great drug use problem.

[Brian Safi]

He was buying a quarter pound of cocaine.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Can you put that into perspective for your girl over here? Because I understand it's a lot but I just kind of want to know.

[Brian Safi]

Think of a quarter pound of flour is.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That's like a flour bag, like at the grocery store.

[Brian Safi]

A flower bag is probably five pounds.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay. Okay.

[Ronna Glickman]

Doing a line of cocaine is doing a wisp of flour.

[Brian Safi]

Well, they sell it by the gram and then put that quarter pound. So what you normally hear is people say you buy a gram of cocaine, right?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

Which is also crazy.

[Brian Safi]

So how many grams? Which is a lot, right? I don't know. How many grams in a quarter pound? 113 grams.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

130.

[Brian Safi]

That's crazy. So when you think of somebody in the 80s scoring a gram for a night out to share with their friends. Friends. Okay. He would buy 113 grams at a time.

[Ronna Glickman]

Let me put it this way. My coffee beans every morning are 36 grams.

[Brian Safi]

Okay, yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

So that's.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yep.

[Ronna Glickman]

Four times.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I mean, listen, I only did coke twice. And I. I don't need uppers. I only need downers. So I know nothing about uppers in my life. I only know the downers. So that is, like, unbelievable to me.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. I mean, he's basically trafficking in cocaine.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes. And he. To her narration, he successfully hides the degree of this addiction for a good time in their marriage until finally she realizes it because he's also, like, going into. As her husband, Jer. He's. He's making deals and then going to the bathroom to do more cocaine to come out and close the deal.

[Brian Safi]

Well, he takes a blow twitch to the bathroom to smoke crack at one point. And that seems to alarm her in some way.

[Ronna Glickman]

Not to mention she was like. And looking back on it, when we'd kiss, I would notice that there was something caked all over his nostrils. I was like, can I be made any sicker?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, well, go back. Go back to the trench mouth scene.

[Brian Safi]

So trench mouth, not gingivitis. Trench, trench.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Then there's parts of the book, though, where it's the next thing I'm about to read. My note is, you could be a member of my Patreon. This is like, listen to this. This is the thing about tarot cards is that they guide your unconscious to help you focus in. You already know the answers you need. It's just a tool to help bring them up. And I said, this is the stuff we're discussing over here on the Patreon.

[Brian Safi]

This is a very, very sensitive time to bring this up, Chelsea.

[Ronna Glickman]

I have to be honest, Chelsea. Recently a guest on our show said a week ago, I want to do a quick three draw tarot reading on each one. One card will represent your past, one will represent your present, one will represent your future. Rana's past was.

[Brian Safi]

I don't know. It was all wonderful. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay.

[Ronna Glickman]

Her present was. You are killing it on such a level. Her future was.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Was.

[Ronna Glickman]

Honey, I didn't know anyone could rise so high.

[Brian Safi]

It's true.

[Ronna Glickman]

My past was you. You got over something recently. I couldn't really think what it was, but I was like, yeah, sure, I guess we do all the time. My present was. Okay, right now you are at rock bottom.

[Brian Safi]

What was the darkest card you could draw?

[Ronna Glickman]

What was Nine of Swords the darkest card?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Rana. Yeah. It's when all the swords are in that corpse on the ground. That's that card, right? Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

It wasn't the darkest because my future was not the Nine of swords. It was The Ten of Swords. So my future was bury yourself alive.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

And cease.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What? Okay, Brian, wasn't.

[Brian Safi]

It wasn't really a fun moment.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

According to Roseanne, you brought these cards forth from your own inner knowledge. What do you think of that?

[Ronna Glickman]

Can I be honest about something? When I read that passage, I immediately felt relief. I'm not even kidding. I read that passage and I thought to myself, like, oh, wow, what a great way to look at it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's in my hands, not the cards hands.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

See?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And this is what I said. It could be happening on my Patreon. Like, it's not just Woo Woo for Woo Woo. It is. Let's be thoughtful about this. This is your own. This is your own will in your life, Brian. You don't have to be the Ten of Swords if you don't want to be.

[Ronna Glickman]

That's right. That's right. And so in that way, this book saved my life.

[Brian Safi]

But then you're only pulling the cards to tune in with your own subconscious.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. The idea is that your subconscious is what's bringing it forward, not the tarot card holder.

[Brian Safi]

So then you think to yourself, oh, I better rearrange my subconscious. Once you pull do a poll.

[Ronna Glickman]

You don't like Ronna, don't you understand that that's what this book has done for me?

[Brian Safi]

Well, it doesn't matter to me because my subconscious was pretty much lining up with my. My whatever, you know, my thriving. And so it all sort of works the same way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

If I thought I still had a deck of tarot cards, I'd be redoing a reading right now. But thank. Thankfully, I think they're in the garage or something.

[Ronna Glickman]

Thank God for everyone, because honestly, you.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Couldn'T take it right.

[Ronna Glickman]

Anything went wrong in this reading. I don't know what I would do.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Thank God. Well, Roseanne then writes. She's like, there's this thing in mysticism. And I'm like, where? What book did you get this from?

[Brian Safi]

Oh, yes, she just. She's.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She just.

[Brian Safi]

No, no, you. You talk about it, but I just love that she. She casually referred to when she was into mysticism. And I think what she's talking about is the Kabbalah, to be honest. But anyway, let's see. I can't remember what she said, but she did casually just refer to her mysticism days.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That makes sense. Okay, I'll tell you what happened, and then I have to hear your thoughts. She says, there's this thing in mysticism where if you find the exact right question to ask. Yes, people will have to give you the answer. You just have to know the right question, and then they will be compelled to give you the answer. Answer. And for some reason, the next story is. So I went to all my reps, and I asked them the question, what could I do to completely destroy my career? And they said, oh, that's easy. You could talk about religion, you could talk about politics. You could talk about this. And she said, great. Thank you. And she called up the New York Times and she did an interview where she talked about religion, politics, and race. And the next paragraph should have been, like, why she did that or, like, what the point was, but there wasn't one. So I'm just curious what your thoughts were.

[Brian Safi]

She also fired them all too, didn't she?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, it was hard tracking the timeline.

[Brian Safi]

Uhhuh.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Maybe.

[Ronna Glickman]

Rona, what were your thoughts when you heard that? Why do you think she asked that?

[Brian Safi]

Yeah, because the Roseanne that we're reading about in this book, it's very. I mean, I didn't read the first one, so that's very interesting to me that the first one was kind of Roseanne enjoying the moment of being Roseanne. And it's sort of like a good girl book, you know, like, just less.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Less on fire, for sure.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. But it was just sort of like, like, and this is me and it. And I sorta. I worked really hard, and here I am, and I'm still working hard in Hollywood, and luckily, you know, who would have thought, at the end of the day, I drive home in my convertible, you know, or whatever, and it was weird. Utah was weird, and this was weird, and that was weird. But here I am. I assume that was sort of the feeling of the first book. And this is a burn it down to the ground book. It's a burn book. Literally.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And I don't know, you know, we'll never know how much of it is based in reality and how much of it is. Is I'm gonna skew you and how much of it is, you know, all of that. But that passage to me was, roseanne always needs friction in order to feel like she's alive and relevant and that maybe her career was coasting to a place of comfort. And so she doesn't know how to be comfortable and to stop. She only knows how to create drama in her life and abandoned people or be abandoned or threaten people and be threatened. She talks about how as soon as she spoke to men, like another man, and basically said, you know, I'm gonna shrivel your Balls and get you out of here was the only way she could get results, to terrify people, essentially.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Not that these were good people, but I'm just saying. And so that, to me, was. She could feel herself coasting into either side. Success or comfort or relevance or whatever it was. And that it's that ultimate thing, I think that people who have been deeply abandoned and traumatized and narcissists. It's the ultimate narcissist move, is to say, I'm gonna be as bad as I can be, and we'll see if you still love me. So it's people that torture other people, and then they say the worst thing they can to, and then you take them back. That's the narcissist, sexist cycle, and that's her. And so to me, it was. I'm gonna say the worst things I can possibly say, and I'll challenge you all to still love me. And you all is America and also her reps, et cetera, et cetera. Hollywood.

[Ronna Glickman]

What's remarkable to me throughout the book and accepting for the thing where she was firing off these racist tweets about. Was it about Valerie Jarrett or something?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, they were, like, racist tweets. Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yes. She went after Valerie Jarrett, of all people. Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

My total fascination is the fact that before that last outburst that she had that got her off the reboot, John Goodman, Laurie Metcalfe, all of them have only said incredible things about her, except for over the last few years, and never had an issue with her.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

And also not only that according to her, but even according to them, completely supported her vision. Stuck by her, said, we will leave if you leave. Like, we're not going to stay here when they were approached about it. And that, to me, is so fascinating. I wish, like, what. Where was the. Either connect or the disconnect, depending on who you're asking. But that, to me, was wildly fascinating.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I completely agree. And I think there's a larger point we can talk about which we probably shouldn't, because it's. At this point in my life, I feel like I should quit everything and write a thesis on how Roseanne got the way she is. Because. Because she was a feminist activist who got hit in the head who, like, ends up going maga. But, like, was fighting the fight for many years. Yeah. The way she was fighting it is the way Rada's saying with, like, crazy narcissism and crazy trauma. Feminism really mattered to her. And doing good work really mattered to her. Even though it starts Unraveling, unraveling. And Tom clearly enabled a lot of wild behavior. But they. Let's cut to the wedding.

[Brian Safi]

Can I just say one thing, though? We have to make the distinction between Roseanne the performer and the artist and Roseanne the person. And the book that we're reading is the story of. We read is the story of Roseanne the person. And what isn't really addressed here. She never talks really about. On show night, I was scoring one after the other. I mean, she does when she talks about her standout.

[Ronna Glickman]

It's time for her to tell us about what it was like working on she devil and finding her.

[Brian Safi]

And she doesn't talk about any of that. This book is about America turned its back on me, and I'm gonna tell you who I am. It really isn't about the journey of an artist and an entertainer. It's that strange moment where comedians unfortunately sometimes become not funny when they become very successful and they start smoking their own stash and they become political. Hate to say it, you could see Dave Chappelle loving this moment right now. And all anybody wants to wants is for him to go back to being funny. And he's funny sometimes, but mostly he is living in a very small world with not a lot of air in it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And I know it's not a comedian, but J.K. rowling. Right. I mean, like, J.K. rowling has personally taken up transphobia as. As her cause. It's like, dude, you have so much money, just go live on a weird yacht and float away.

[Brian Safi]

But it's not so different from Roseanne because I do believe that J.K. rowling thinks is coming at this in her mind as a feminist. I think she believes that. I don't think that's what's happening, but I think that's what she believes. And I think Roseanne very similar in the sense that this is where the nascents of this was was in feminism. And then they spin out into these crazy little chambers and that the reason the others act as etc. Loved Roseanne is because Roseanne is goddamn funny and was goddamn terrific on that show. And they made great choices and they did such interesting episodes about, you know, Peabody winning episodes about this and dealing with issues of that. And that was sort of that time in TV when Ellen came out and all of the, you know, that people were still following in the footsteps of Norman Lear in some way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And none of that is in this book.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That is so well said. You're so right. And it's so sad.

[Brian Safi]

That's why they love her. They were part of something really important and also really funny. Every. You can't imagine what it must feel like to be on that show. That show owned America for however many years it was on the air.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think as. As we know. I mean, like, even now, when you go to pitch a comedy, right, about working class people, the example is still Roseanne. And that was in the 90s. So it's just like it was so revolutionary. Everyone loved the 80s.

[Brian Safi]

I just looked it up and said it in 88.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

God. And it's like there's still not like another show like that. And just like you said, like, funny and well acted and has heart. It's just like you just don't see shows like that anymore.

[Brian Safi]

They all had incredible chemistry. Everybody knew who they were in those pots and they all bought huge houses. So why would they have a thing to say about Roseanne except she makes sure we get good material?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Do you guys know the who Jackie story? No.

[Brian Safi]

No.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

This is. This is lore writers room lore. And the short version of the story is there's a writer on Roseanne. They've been on for every single season, and they're in like season six, and someone is pitching a story about Jackie. And the writer looks up and goes, who Jackie? Because the room was so, like cocaine filled, party filled. Like, wow. You know what I mean? So it's like it was an incred, incredible show and it was still written with like psychotic, you know.

[Ronna Glickman]

Right. Of course.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

10 psycho men.

[Ronna Glickman]

No one wanting to go home to their family.

[Brian Safi]

She does not ever mention any of the other writers.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

No, no, no. She doesn't know their number.

[Ronna Glickman]

Exactly.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay. So just so much happens. She really finally finds out that Tom Arnold has a drug problem. She makes him go to rehab. In rehab, she cancels the wedding, lets him find out on the news. News. Even though she'd already put a hundred thousand dollars into it. Then during rehab, she's like, no, wait, let's get married two days after you get out of rehab. Very healthy for individuals and richest stats.

[Brian Safi]

With the therapist saying you're different.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

Don't worry, you two. Everyone else has to do a year in AA and not be in a relationship. But you two are different.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, literally.

[Ronna Glickman]

Like, yeah, literally a day or two after he got out of rehab.

[Brian Safi]

What about their incredible honeymoon? And they rent a private jet and they just go nowhere. They have nowhere. They're not interested in anything or going anywhere. And they go to Minneapolis to see a friend and then they go to Iowa. They have sex on the plane stay.

[Ronna Glickman]

In someone's guest room and they just.

[Brian Safi]

Sort of do nothing.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Can I, can I, can I read that paragraph? Because this is one of, this is one of the craziest paragraphs in the entire book, which is really saying a lot. Still, for the most part, the trip was an absolute gas. Mainly because we scrapped the original plan to stay in Acapulco for two weeks because of paparazzi. For an all out nostalgia Ronna, how do I say this, but Baedeker.

[Brian Safi]

Baedeka.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Baedeka.

[Brian Safi]

The Baedeka was the, like the, the guidebook that everybody would take when they went on the grand tour of Europe.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay, okay. An all out nostalgia Baedeka. Taking advantage of the rented jet we had at our disposal, we flew to see Tom's grandparents. Then to see Brandy in Austin. We joined the Mile High club. After that, we swung up to Minneapolis to hang out with friends and finally went. Wound up sleeping in Tom's childhood bed at his parents house in Iowa. It was all really even better than what we had planned.

[Brian Safi]

How is that better?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

What kind of became a real memory. Spoiler was that while Tom and I fed each other wedding cake on our wedding night at the Beverly Hills Hotel, my father was molesting my daughter Jess.

[Brian Safi]

And then she doesn't come back to that for about 70 pages. I mean, when they confront the father, she just moves on to another paragraph about something else.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And then she keeps the dad in their lives. Which again speaks to lots of sexual trauma victims and families who are like, forgive him. We're good now, right?

[Brian Safi]

He apologized and the mother is constantly advocating for him. And it's a joke. It was funny. It's a joke.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I mean, horrible.

[Ronna Glickman]

All horrible. So I read some like early reviews of this. When it came out, I just looked. Yeah, many reviewers were like, we don't buy it. We don't believe her. It was all about the sexual abuse. My instinct. And now Ronnie, you said she's recanted it. But my instinct was this all sounds completely believable.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Sounds exactly how it would still be.

[Ronna Glickman]

In contact with her parents. She would still be putting up with this. She would still be hiding this. It wouldn't really come to fruition until later. Like, I believed every word of it.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, honestly, just so grim and so sad. And there's so many members. There's so many members of this family too. And so it's just going on over generations, but it's also going on and it appears in some kind of. It's like it never appears These apologies are half apologies. And then it goes back to it. But everybody weirdly. Roseanne. And maybe this is also just a function of trauma or whatever, but. Or maybe just humanity is. She's weirdly hopeful in some way, too. So they always are resetting, thinking, well, now that we have enough money, or now that you can come move out here or whatever it is. She doesn't couch it like that, but you can sort of see the way that her life has moved on. So now I'm in la. I'm a big deal. You guys can move out here and we'll start over. There's a lot of starting over. And then they move to thing and they start over. There's all this displacement all the time trying to run away from this. The terrible original sin of this family.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And then it just happens again and again, which is.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's just literally the cycle of generational abuse where one generation does it to the other. Well. Well, the last kind of two things in the book is that, you know, she does the national anthem, which by her account was like, she really thought she was. She's like, I have a good voice. I'm a good singer. I started. She was like, I started the song too high. So then I started trying to make it a joke why she'd never practiced it again. We can look to cocaine. We can look to the rest of her. Like, why didn't you rehearse it?

[Brian Safi]

I think that's the head trauma. I wonder if her Zen he is her voice the way. Way we hear her voice.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Well, yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And her speaking voice.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Right, right.

[Brian Safi]

She has such a distinctive street speaking voice. And I think everyone thinks it's her delivery, but maybe it's head trauma because.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She really was like, I accidentally fucked up the national anthem. Then I tried to lean into it to be, like, comedic. Then I tried to do the crotch and spit thing because that's what baseball players do. And someone told me it'd be funny. And, like, I didn't realize this was gonna ruin my life and be so horrible and, like, thank God my show wasn't.

[Brian Safi]

The crotch and sp bit is funny on record, and it will never not be funny.

[Ronna Glickman]

That was a little bit, actually, in that section where I lost her a little bit. Only because I felt like there was. Listen, I don't give a fuck what she did at the national. Like, do whatever you want. But she clearly was, in retrospect, unhappy with how that came across.

[Brian Safi]

Yes, she was contrite or something. Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

And also. Yes, she was.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And.

[Ronna Glickman]

But also didn't really. If you're going to feel contrite about. About it.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

She didn't really take an ounce of accountability for it. It was a baseball player pitched me a joke, which I thought was funny.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And you're Roseanne. Why are you taking his joke exactly?

[Ronna Glickman]

Like, it just sort of was like, you're not really saying, hey, looking back, it was a joke I made, and I could see how people were offended, and it was tasteless, like. But she doesn't really.

[Brian Safi]

I think part of it, maybe that moment has to do with the male gay and has to do with Roseanne. Something that she struggles with over her life is that she's a feminist. I mean, look, this story as old as time, but she's a feminist. She wants these women driven narratives, et cetera, et cetera. And she's a woman that has never been without a man and is using her body for money. And in a nihilistic way, not just in a I am in control kind of way. And in that moment, she's on the national stage, and it's almost a bit like this phone call with the agents where she says, what could I do to make them hate me to see if they still love me.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wow. Yeah. You really picked up on this theme.

[Brian Safi]

And she is, in that moment, she makes herself so repulsive. I mean, she was grotesque in that moment and during the national pastime and in a moment where there's almost nothing more vulnerable than singing the national anthem because it's almost always a cappella, and it is. Well, I guess you should have a hard. You have a backing track or whatever. It's one of the hottest songs to sing. And you are literally in the center of a stadium with, you know, 80,000 people around you, silently forced to watch you in that moment. And she decides to be sort of revolting or transgressive or whatever. And she gets it wrong. She thinks people are going to say, there's Roseanne again. She really pushed it, and we loved it. And it does make me think of that Sinead o' Connor Pope moment. When I think of this, though, I'm not sure they were actually the same thing. They were maybe just cultural moments around the same time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Because I feel like Sinead was really trying to. To say, look at. Look at the sexual molestation happening in.

[Ronna Glickman]

The church and really got completely canceled for it. But now we know she's a hero.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah, but I just mean in terms of the. I'm taking my moment and the world is forced to pay attention to me in this moment and it's going to go one way or the other, whatever. But I think that in the end she didn't like feeling repulsive. If she had been loved for it, it would have been fine. She almost bails on the beat bit in a way after it happens because it didn't go the way that she, she thought she was going to be loved for it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

And what she can't live with is people not loving her. Even though she does everything in this world to make people not love her. They always do.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wow. Yeah. And, and you know, at least at.

[Brian Safi]

This time in her career, like, no.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Roseanne is like peak TV in this moment. And Bob Iger calls her and is like, why did you do that? Like your show is number one. But well, and also I just want to point out who booked her for the working class ball game theme of singing the national anthem. Husband, you're Tom Arnold. So this is what we would call, I don't know, a bad manager who would say, you know, probably this probably not a good idea.

[Brian Safi]

But he also hates her guts. He's so jealous of her. So jealous of her.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And they're mean to each other is like part of their relationship, puts her.

[Brian Safi]

In bad situations all the time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, exactly. Well, so then one of the last chapters says recovery. And she says, I have chosen to become a soldier in a terrible war against children, in innocence, ultimately a war against ourselves and what being abused is like. And then following that paragraph, she writes, last year over Christmas, I had an operation to have my flap, apron, gut, belly cut off, removed and reshaped. At first I was very nervous and a little ashamed about it, maybe embarrassed. I guess a good sign of recovery is being able to tell the difference between shame and embarrassment. And then she goes back to talking about, about sexual abuse. And then she said, after my stomach operation, I walked nude into the bathroom. When I turned the corner, I saw right there in the mirror my sexual parts. I froze. I felt shocked. I felt vulnerable and scared without hiding places I created so far. And she said, I feel I have been able to reverse the years of damage to my physical being and my self esteem. After 41 years, I finally feel no shame or disgust looking at myself in the mirror. I am a big round normal shaped woman with scarlet scars. Sometimes I feel as if I had to cut away my own self loathing and am finding comfort in my own skin. To me that was a disastrous takeaway.

[Ronna Glickman]

Of healing that this surgery saved her.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And that it was, it's linked to the abuse in your body and. And that you needed this to heal. I'm just like, this is a. This is a. A page one rewrite. We gotta go back to zero here. We have come to the end with the wrong conclusion.

[Ronna Glickman]

It was sort of a dangerous takeaway. I do have to say that throughout the book. I do love some of her syntax. I love when she's like, apron, gut. And when she says something like. And then some dumb old bitch came up to me. She talks. But yes, I agree. A little dangerous thing.

[Brian Safi]

Oh.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh. So rough. And then, I mean, it's literally. The book is ending. This is one of the last paragraphs she writes in the book. I'm gonna read it. I set out to write a book about surviving incest and abuse. I so very much wanted to write a happy and inspiring story tonight again. I know there is no happy or inspiring ending any of this. Only that I lived through it. And that in spite of its hovering and crushing weight, just the reality of it, just the possession of my body and mind and soul in its aftermath. Somehow I, like millions of others, have carried on a really stunning goal that. It's interesting to think that that's the book you set out to write because, like, at some point we are, like, getting, like, matching tattoos with Tom Arnold post wedding on our asses.

[Brian Safi]

The. The narrative of the incest and the molestation, which is devastating to read and freshly. Dev. Every time you read it is really just a sort of thread that runs through the book. It isn't really what the book is about, but it's interesting because maybe that's how she experiences her life.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think it's just so unprocessed.

[Brian Safi]

It's just something that's humming in the background.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

She wants to talk about it. It's there, it's present. Like she's gotten to the moment where.

[Brian Safi]

You admit it, but she thinks that it's brave just to talk about it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ronna Glickman]

It's almost step one of admitting what happened.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

And that's as far as she's gone.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But presented as the conclusion exactly to.

[Ronna Glickman]

Where, like, well, I said it, so now I'm free of it. And it's like, for sure. But now you gotta go back and heal yourself, you know, and get some perspective on it. It's the. It's a crucial first step. But you don't. I think you're right, Chelsea, that you don't really get a sense that she's processed that.

[Brian Safi]

It's also. The book is the defense. It's a defense argument.

[Ronna Glickman]

It is as if Someone just threw a book at you. Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

She has been indicted by America. In this moment, people don't understand her. They don't know where she's coming from. They don't know why she is who she is. And she is, like, screaming into the void at her parents or her audience or all of her husbands or whoever else just saying, this is how I got this way. And I'm right. I'm with everything I do I'm entitled to do because of what happened to me before. And she's obviously a deeply abusive person in addition to being a deeply abused person.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

[Brian Safi]

But how do we think we get to MAGA after this?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Well, that's. Yes. Okay. Yes, let's talk about that, and then let's do the book Dull Test.

[Ronna Glickman]

I think it's people telling her, no, you can't say that. You can't do that anymore. You can't. I think that was enough for her. And I think it's the same part of her that said, what can I do to ruin my career?

[Brian Safi]

Well, to the point that then you're accepted by that community, though. I mean, there are so many people that have been ostracized from a former profession or couldn't succeed in some way that have been embraced by this world.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I. This is gonna be. I don't know if it's a deep cut or not, but were you guys following Justine Bateman? Being.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, I know that's happening.

[Ronna Glickman]

Wait, what?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Right, Brian. Okay, so, Brian, you're having the reaction I had when I found this out, because Justine really led the writer strike movement of. AI is really here to really just destroy our business. And she was like, your union is messing up because AI is here in a way that you are not accepting, and the decisions the union is making are not strong enough for you, which we all took, is like, make our union stronger. Justine is fighting for us. But I think what she really meant is, is, like, your union sucks, period. And so. Yeah, but she's, you know, she's Jason Bateman's sister. She was a star of her own. She's a filmmaker and director and all these amazing things. Like, I really followed her career. And, yeah, the day he won, she made an Instagram post saying, the last four years were the worst four years of my life. I've been living in a prison of wokeness.

[Ronna Glickman]

I can't take much more.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Okay, so, yeah, so to skip to the end, but it's another one of those where you go. Justine has led an anti aging movement in Hollywood to show, like, here's what real aging on a woman looks like. And like, you know, she was famous when she was a kid. And so it's like, wait, you maga. She's now on Fox News all the time.

[Brian Safi]

What is her viewpoint, though?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Her viewpoint? And so, okay, this is. This is kind of what I'm tying into Roseanne, which is that I don't know what ties it together if it's generation, if it's part of the country, if it's belief system. But I think there's a certain sect of people who really did laugh at jokes that we would now be like, hey, that's kind of like a racist joke, like a John Rickles joke. Right. And they're like, but this is us just talking and being honest and like, calling out the truth of it and sort of being told like, hey, but that joke is actually quite racist. Is like demolishing to their system of, yes, you guys aren't living in the truth because they can feel that lizard brain truthness and can't really understand the message of, like, yeah, but here's the joke punching down, blah, blah. And I think.

[Ronna Glickman]

And the worst thing you could say to a comedian is it's coming off as kind of uncool.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And so I think it is that little section of the brain that goes, you're being untrue. You're being lied. Liars. This is my truth. I refuse to change or grow. I don't want to grow. I don't want my brain to grow. I think I am correct in my moment. Therefore, I guess I am now maga because you liberals are just being mean to me all the time.

[Ronna Glickman]

Right?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, that's my best guess for Roseanne because.

[Ronna Glickman]

I think you're right.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. I mean, even when season one came back of Roseanne, like, one of the kids was gender curious, like on the show, and she had Trump jokes and Hillary jokes and ways, and the neighbors.

[Ronna Glickman]

Were Muslim and there was another neighbor that had a problem with them. And she, you know, stood up to bat for them and.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, but. But also was still, like, being conservative and working class. Like, she really was having the discussion. Whether you wanted the discussion or not, she was having it. And I think when people were like, you're bad at having this discussion, she was like, you guys are actually wrong. And I guess the other side is the truth and the light in the way. I don't know, Brian, why do you think she got maga?

[Ronna Glickman]

I think that part of it was, I don't Want to be polite in this moment. I don't care if the culture has shifted. The way I broke through was by breaking through the culture and by breaking stereotypes. And I'll do it again. And. And it backfired spectacularly. Because the problem is that instead of challenging these rigid ways, we used to be the world in a very ideal sense since her comeback. And during her comeback actually became more expansive, less tolerant of monstrous behavior and more willing. I mean. Cause she really came about a. During the. Or the reboot. Came about during MeToo. It also came about during identifying who you are and finding safety in that. That. And that's not a thing you want to break up. You know, breaking up, like Reaganomics and George Bush going to war. Great. Go for it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

80S sexism and.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah, but breaking up, making more people feel safe is not the way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And that was her only tool. A hammer.

[Ronna Glickman]

Right.

[Brian Safi]

But there's also. Oh, I agree with that. But there's also a very simple thing that's happening, which is that everything that you're saying also equals the world moving past Roseanne.

[Ronna Glickman]

That's right.

[Brian Safi]

And Roseanne is not interested in the world moving past her. So she will go where, in like many of these MAGA people, she will go where her audience is. She will go where she is heard. She will go where she is seen and wanted and desired. And she just wants to sound off. And I also think she does. I do think she. She has some crazy agendas. I think it's all mixed up in a blender. There are certain things that she still is iconoclastic about, but that you just can't get on board with her as a whole. And that's fine because she doesn't have to speak for everybody. She just chooses to. So she's trying to force us all to listen to her and we don't want to. And so that. And that is why you go to where they want you. You.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, you're right.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, I'm. Hammer's doing the same thing right now.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Truly.

[Brian Safi]

I mean, who cares? I mean, Hammer, he's not Roseanne, but he's got nowhere to go.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

That's right.

[Brian Safi]

This is why people find religion.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I. And it's what I. That's why I'm like, should I believe in God? It just seems great. And yet I'm here. Just.

[Brian Safi]

But they'll take you. And there was a big article, I can't remember where. When Trump was first elected, people were talking a lot. Now everyone's so busy being confused by his agenda. Et CETERA et cetera. But people were talking about how the Republicans are really the culture of cancel culture. They'll cancel you faster than anyone else and that they're trying to cancel Wokeness basically. But everyone's overcorrecting in the same way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

There's no greater definition of cancel culture than making fun of Tesla and then making it a law. That, that, that's terrorism.

[Brian Safi]

That's fascism. It's so, I mean there's a lot, A lot of this is right out of a fascist playbook.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I, I think it's time we do the booktal test. There are three questions. We're all going to answer all three. Yes, I, I do call it the book till test after Allison Bechtel, which you know, just came to me in a dream. Okay, first question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of their true truth?

[Ronna Glickman]

They were open, but I don't know if they were vulnerable.

[Brian Safi]

Wow. I agree with what Brian said, but I'll say yes because you're just putting so much out there. I agree it's open, it's not vulnerable. But you're putting things out there that are a lot of open wounds. So I'm going to say yes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

You know, when we're at trench mouth blowjob at the Bennegans, I'm going to give it to you. This is the much as you have to give.

[Brian Safi]

But it's trench mouth. But it's trench mouth Bennegan on your terms with an agenda. That's the only, that's the only caveat.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Since you put it there. I'm still just gonna be like, you know what? It's a wash. We thank you for your honesty. Okay, great.

[Brian Safi]

Great question though.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, thank you. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Brian Safi]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

Full stop. Thrilling.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think this, I think this was one sitting for me. I started honestly and like you said, the. It. The book throws itself at you. The book is a bit. It slaps your face. Face. And you say thank you, mommy.

[Brian Safi]

Get past the preface. Cuz the preface is written by somebody with multiple. Talking about multiple personalities and it's a lot.

[Ronna Glickman]

No, I would fully read it again, but I will say when I closed the book, I was like, I can't have this book in my room.

[Brian Safi]

It needs to be burned.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's a haunted object.

[Brian Safi]

No, you need to. No, you need to burn sage in your house after. I don't want this book in my house either.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Also the, the afterword is a. Is a seven page poem. Like, I mean, I'm Going to say a no to that. I did DNF all the poems. Poems.

[Brian Safi]

And a letter to. Apologizing to her children for leaving them in unsafe environments all the time.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

We're gonna.

[Brian Safi]

Well, yeah, it's.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

It's a lot of. A lot of loose ends. Okay, final question. You never know which way this one's gonna go. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Ronna Glickman]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Tell me.

[Ronna Glickman]

First of all, the tarot.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yes.

[Ronna Glickman]

And second of all, I would never approach things the way she did, but I was inspired by how much she. And whether it's because of a mental break or not, I was inspired by how much she believed in herself. And when she knew she was right, she really knew it. So I. I would go about a different way, but I was inspired by that.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think that's beautiful.

[Brian Safi]

Rana, am I better off having read the book?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Is that elevated? Did it elevate your life in any way? Which is tricky because it. No, it doesn't mean better off did. But did it elevate you?

[Brian Safi]

I'm living a very elevated life, so that would be a hard thing to do.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

So some books make your life worse.

[Ronna Glickman]

You know, it's true.

[Brian Safi]

I don't think it elevated my life, but I would say that it illuminated it in some ways.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I like that.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah.

[Ronna Glickman]

What about you?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I'm a full, enthusiastic yes. Because I read her first memoir when I was new to comedy. I was, like, 18 and reading this, you know, like, she's our famous. You know, one of our. One of our best. And so she's really weighed on me as, like, how A to B, like, I must know. And. And this book really drilled down, I believe, a theme of the podcast, which is oftentimes when we think we're looking at the craziest woman ever, we are looking at someone who has suffered deep trauma and was not able to get help for it. And I thought of Sinead o' Connor, who ends up saying racist things later in her life, and some weird religious things and some weird. But she was trying to speak out about Prince and this. She has a story in her book. It's just so hard to read. Read. She takes back that her father abused her in her book, and she says, like, demons made her do it. Britney Spears apologizing to Justin Timberlake on Instagram, then deleting the post, then having her sister come hug her, then posting pictures of her sister looking terrible, being like, hey, girl, have a great show tonight. Like, it. It's just like, intense trauma, personality disorders.

[Brian Safi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

And Just like.

[Ronna Glickman]

And it hasn't been worked out.

[Brian Safi]

Fragmentation. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

But instead of us looking at these women like, oh, God, like, what you lived through to get here, what your brain went through to get here, what help you must still need, we look at them as idiots. And it's just a. Oh, it was just a really good reminder to me of, like, the suffering. You're actually witnessing suffering, and you're witnessing a brain that cannot survive in this world without the help that it has never been given. And so that drove the point home for me. And I just want to read this real quick. She said. Said TV is about demographics. Demographics are about women who buy products. Women have been made prisoners of tv. The more they watch, the more products they buy. Why then, if TV is largely a medium for and about women, are most of the women on TV being raped, murdered, humiliated, degraded, reduced to their body parts and verbally attacked? The more power we are told we don't have, the more power we are willing to concede. In my show, the woman is no longer a victim, but in control of her mind. I wanted to make family sitcoms, as we know them, obsolete.

[Ronna Glickman]

I got chills.

[Brian Safi]

Incredible. There was, like, an anthem.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

An anthem and a person who's. Who's still in there somewhere.

[Ronna Glickman]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Who really tried to do something special.

[Brian Safi]

I think she believes she's still doing that.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. And I mean, she got destroyed, but.

[Brian Safi]

About a different agenda. That it's not about feminism necessarily, but it is about remaking the world the way that you want it.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I, I.

[Brian Safi]

It's also about being a victim on some level.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think it is about. Yeah. It's interesting because she talks a lot about being a victim in this book and, like, not being a victim. And I think, listen, sometimes I'm not one of those people who's like, I don't want to say I'm a. Yes, I'm a. Have been a victim in situations. I'm not a survivor. No. That sucked. And when you don't get, like, the care and time and space for that, I think you become Roseanne, where you are fighting a fight that you cannot win until you no longer know who you're fighting.

[Brian Safi]

But how did victim become only a dirty word?

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah.

[Brian Safi]

A victim. Victimization in its purest form is something that happens to you. It is not something. It's not an identity that you choose for yourself. But there are people that do choose that identity for themselves, and that is when it goes askew.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Right.

[Brian Safi]

And I think probably it's hard to say. I think Roseanne is absolutely a victim of her childhood. I mean, there was some and possibly this brain injury and who knows what else. And. But she's also a victim of her own making in terms of a lot of the choices that she's made in her life. And that's probably true of all of us in some way.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah. Or.

[Brian Safi]

Or the manifestation of our life is the experiences that were thrust upon us and then the decisions that we make in adulthood. And so I'm not trying to explain that away. I just think it's interesting. I wonder where she finds herself now. I feel like she's living by. More. This I think she's thinks is an anti victim anthem. This book. Yeah, this is. I'm not going to be a victim. I'm going to tell you why I'm who I am and what I think and why I'm right. And now I feel like in this later iteration it is. Is more about being a victim. But maybe I'm wrong or. Or be a victim of disappointment. I don't know.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I think at this point in the book she was really struggling to be the person inside and also fighting these traumatic demons. And I like, I think we're gonna see. I think we could see Britney Spears come out and be like, I voted for Donald Trump. I actually don't think she voted, but I think you could come out and see those things and you'll judge her as like, Britney, how could you? And it's like, no, no, no. Know this person's been locked away in a cage on hard drugs and abuse since they were a child. Why are you treating this person as if they've received care like they have not like, stop talking to them like they are living the same brain that you have.

[Brian Safi]

Yes. Yeah, totally.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Wow. We got really, you guys, how should we end this episode?

[Ronna Glickman]

No, I thought that was incredible. And honestly, like, I've gotten so much. I'm not kidding, kidding out of this episode with you. Truly.

[Brian Safi]

I guess it did elevate our lives.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

This was I listen I so sad. You guys already have a hit huge podcast and we can't just read Roseanne's books every week because she's got two others. But you know what? Let's end this with I'm gonna pull a tarot card for Brian and oh, dear Brian.

[Brian Safi]

Brian. I wish that I had thought to ask Chelsea to do this, but I didn't know that. Not know where this was headed. But Chelsea, don't fake it.

[Ronna Glickman]

I've never said this word before, but I blanched.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Oh, that's a good word. Listen, I, I truly. If I thought I could grab the cards, I don't shuffle them anymore.

[Brian Safi]

You need to shuffle.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I would need to shovel. I need to call in my ancestors. Like there's a whole thing.

[Ronna Glickman]

You also need to lie to me if it's.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

Yeah, I need to lie to you. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

[Brian Safi]

Thank you. And thank you to all of the new people that will. We're meeting through your podcast. And, and I'm so delighted that we're introducing you. I don't think we're introducing because you've been on ours, and I think probably 99% of the people that listen to our podcast listen to yours, but I'm delighted that we're. We're expanding our universe for someone that we love so much. Yeah. With someone that we love so much.

[Chelsea Devon Ches]

I. I echo every. Every single sentiment. Adore you guys. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Look Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S A H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.