Sarah Wynn William’s Memoir Careless People (with Traci Thomas and Becca Platsky)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast – Episode Summary

Title: Sarah Wynn William’s Memoir Careless People
Guests: Traci Thomas and Becca Platsky
Release Date: March 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Glamorous Trash, host Chelsea Devontez delves into Sarah Wynn Williams' bestselling memoir, Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism. Joined by corporate gossip expert Becca Platsky and fellow podcast host Traci Thomas, Chelsea dissects the exposé of Facebook's inner workings as presented by a former executive.

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Overview of Careless People

Careless People is a tell-all memoir by Sarah Wynn Williams, a former Facebook executive, which unveils the company's toxic culture, internal power struggles, and ethical failings. Published on March 11, 2025, the book provides an insider's perspective on how Facebook's leadership prioritized profit and control over genuine social impact.

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Publication and Reactions

Chelsea highlights the dramatic release strategy employed by Flatiron Books, which kept the book under wraps until publication day to preempt Facebook's defensive backlash. She notes, “Flatiron Books... knew what Facebook was going to do in response to this book” (00:24, Chelsea Devontez). This timing coincided with their previous episode on Sheryl Sandberg’s Lean In, positioning Careless People as a sequel that further unravels the controversies surrounding Facebook.

Traci Thomas shares her excitement: “I hope that this book gives people confidence... these Guys are dumb and terrible people” (04:30).

Becca Platsky offers a balanced critique, appreciating the revelations but criticizing the book's length and structure: “Too long... she kind of could have done it in maybe 100 less pages” (05:08).

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Guests' Overall Thoughts

The guests collectively agree that while Careless People offers crucial insights, it suffers from repetitive storytelling and a lack of structural cohesion.

Traci Thomas emphasizes the importance of the book in empowering readers against imposter syndrome, asserting that the revelations “solve any imposter syndrome” listeners might have regarding powerful tech executives (05:08).

Becca Platsky feels the memoir, despite its flaws, effectively portrays the incompetence and ethical lapses within Facebook's leadership (05:53).

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Sarah Wynn Williams' Journey

Sarah Wynn Williams transitions from her role at the United Nations to Facebook, driven by a desire to use the platform for social revolution. However, she quickly realizes that Facebook's vision is misaligned with her ideals.

Chelsea Devontez recounts: “She pitches Facebook, her own job. Tracy, what did you think of that whole piece of it where she sees Facebook as, like, social change and incredible tool for revolution?... And through many chapters, she finally gets a job” (10:52).

Becca Platsky reflects on Sarah's initial enthusiasm turning into disillusionment as the memoir progresses, highlighting Sarah’s struggle to influence Facebook's direction meaningfully.

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Internal Facebook Culture and Leadership

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the dysfunctional corporate culture within Facebook. The memoir paints a picture of a company dominated by friendship circles, nepotism, and a lack of accountability.

Traci Thomas states: “Facebook's leadership includes a web of people all entangled as bridesmaids, best friends, neighbors, and exes... Their preferences are turned into policy” (53:37).

They critique key figures like Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg for fostering an environment where personal relationships overshadow professional ethics, leading to poor decision-making and ethical breaches.

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Facebook's Role in Political Events

Careless People details Facebook's instrumental role in significant political events, most notably the Arab Spring and the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election.

Becca Platsky discusses how Facebook was leveraged to influence voter behavior: “Facebook's ad algorithm to lie to everyone. And we spent equal amounts of time talking about Fox News when we should have been talking about Facebook ads and Facebook ad spending” (44:44).

Traci Thomas elaborates on Facebook's complicity in spreading misinformation, contributing directly to Donald Trump's election victory: “Facebook embedded staff and Trump's campaign team... invented a new way for political campaigns to shit post its way to the White House” (38:26).

The guests express frustration over the lack of accountability and the systemic issues that allow such misuse of the platform.

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Personal Anecdotes and Criticisms

The podcast delves into poignant and troubling anecdotes from the memoir, including Sarah’s experiences with harassment and the toxic influence of executives like Joel Kaplan.

Becca Platsky shares a distressing account of Joel Kaplan’s inappropriate behavior: “He is sexually harassing her... And she gets fired” (77:41).

Additionally, the discussion touches on Cheryl Sandberg’s manipulative tactics, exemplified by her coercive behavior aboard a private jet and the problematic “lean in” culture she promotes.

Chelsea Devontez rants about the questionable ethics displayed in private interactions: “She is forcing her female employees to act like her girlfriends so that she can be like, oh, my God, Sadie and I got lingerie” (57:38).

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the guests reflect on the broader implications of Careless People. They discuss the necessity of exposing such internal corporate failings to foster accountability and prevent future abuses of power by tech giants.

Traci Thomas expresses hope that the memoir will open floodgates for more revelations: “I hope this opens the floodgates... to talk about the pernicious social media landscape” (83:03).

Becca Platsky concurs, emphasizing the importance of public awareness: “I do think this will pave the way for future memoirs that bring a lot of accountability” (08:54).

Chelsea Devontez concludes with a powerful endorsement of the memoir’s impact: “Simplifying and giving a first person account of the things that you think were evil... Facebook absolutely messed up our lives” (81:08).

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Notable Quotes

• Chelsea Devontez: “Flatiron Books kept the book's existence under wraps until the day of its publication” (00:24).
• Traci Thomas: “These Guys are dumb and terrible people” (04:30).
• Becca Platsky: “She sort of suck a lot too... the buildup was weird” (05:08).
• Traci Thomas: “Imposter syndrome is not allowed for anyone I am personally in contact with” (05:30).
• Chelsea Devontez: “Mark Zuckerberg... he doesn't read, period” (16:11).
• Becca Platsky: “Facebook and Twitter... they reward hate speech, they reward divisive content” (52:15).
• Traci Thomas: “The algorithms reward that type of speech” (52:15).
• Chelsea Devontez: “Throwing a tomato at Mark Zuckerberg would work because he works on humiliation and popularity” (66:43).

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Final Notes

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a scathing analysis of Sarah Wynn Williams' Careless People, shedding light on Facebook's internal dysfunctions and the broader societal impacts of its platform. Through engaging dialogue and critical perspectives, Chelsea Devontez, Traci Thomas, and Becca Platsky provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the memoir's revelations and their implications for the tech industry and beyond.

For those interested in further discussions and deep dives into similar topics, Becca Platsky promotes her event, Stack the Shelves, supporting those affected by the LA fires (82:10), while Traci Thomas encourages engagement with her podcast, Corporate Gossip Pod (83:24).

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Becca Platzky]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Tracy Thomas]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Becca Platzky]

The Nexgrill 8 piece grill tool set.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Now get outside and show off those new skills. Shop a wide selection of grills under $300 at the home Depot. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dig into all of the glamour and all of the trash. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in it stuff too. And today we are book clubbing the best selling tell all memoir Careless People, a cautionary tale of power, greed and lost idealism by former Facebook executive Sarah Wynn Williams. Published March 11, 2025 this is a tell all book all about Facebook's dirty, dirty garbage. And it's dirty garbage people who ran the company. It is filled with so many wild stories and it is incredibly relevant to our present moment. So I am so thrilled to be discussing this today. If you're like, wait, is this a celebrity memoir? Yes, it is now. And last week we covered Lean in by Sheryl Sandberg. And in many ways, this episode is the part two to last week's episode. Now this book's publication has a wild story behind it. Flatiron Books, the publisher of the memoir, kept the book's existence under wraps until the day of its publication. So the day the book came out they were like, surprise, we have a book. Because they knew what Facebook was going to do in response to this book. And we had just happened to be recording Lean in the week this book came out. So I do think it was our psychic moment. Now before we dive in, I have to tell you that our upcoming subscriber Patreon only episode is Matthew McConaughey's memoir. Yeah, we did it. We did it? The book is insane. I think you're going to love this episode. It comes out on April 1st for April Fools. Because I am the fool who read this book. And you can subscribe now on Apple Podcasts. It's less than $5 a month. It's really, really easy. Just one click on your phone, you get ad free listening for all our episodes, all our bonus content like Matthew's book and four years of previous bonus episodes like Kathy Griffin, Kelly Bishop, Jamie Lynn Spears. So many books. And if you want to join the community and meet fellow cookies and get everything that I just mentioned, join our Patreon. Okay, now let's dive in to careless people.

[Tracy Thomas]

The Facebook tell.

[Chelsea Devontez]

All my guests today are Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks podcast. You may remember her from our recent viral article book club episode about supposed anti racist dater who only wanted to date women of color. She was also our guest for Jada Pinkett Smith and so many other episodes. And returning from our Lean in episode is corporate gossip host Becca Platzky, who you heard on last week's episode and on our Kimberly Gargoyle episode. That is how I say Kimberly Garf Garfoyle. Wow, I've just started forgetting her name. Welcome to hell, girl bosses. You both are my guests because within 60 seconds I was texted the article about this book coming out by both of you. So my phone was blowing up with this and I said, well, you're booked. So first I want to discuss the day of the announcement of this book. Then we are going to talk about Sarah and her actual job journey and international relations and Facebook. Then I have three other categories, which is Joel Kaplan, boyfriend number one, Mark Zuckerberg. We'll discuss him and then we'll discuss Cheryl. And then we will discuss the epilogue of the book. So the. Those are the buckets. We'll go in because there's so much to discuss. Okay, so great. Before we dive in, I just want to ask overall thoughts on the book. What do we think?

[Tracy Thomas]

Becca? Fear.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Are we going to popcorn. This just say words.

[Tracy Thomas]

Disgust, fear. But also like, I knew it. Like these guys. I'm excited for people to read this book. I. I hope that this book gives people confidence that I always say when I talk about billionaires, like the average person on the street who went to a State School is 20 to 25 times smarter and more capable than any of the characters in this book. And I hope that reading this expose kind of solves any imposter syndrome that anybody listening to this might have had because these Guys are dumb and terrible people.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Very well said, Tracy. Overall thoughts on the book?

[Becca Platzky]

Overall thoughts on the book? I think I was more mid on it than a lot of people. I liked it. I found Sarah Wynne Williams to sort of suck a lot too. Like, she had a lot of things to say about everybody else sucking, but then she would say things and I would be like, not the flex, you think, babe? And I liked it. But, like, as far as the book goes, like, from a literary criticism standpoint. Too long. Way too long. I think, like, structurally, she needed help. Like, I think it was really good at the end. The buildup was weird. The, like, literary devices they used were weird. And so I was kept trying to figure out what she was, like, trying to do, and she kind of could have done it in maybe 100 less pages, I feel.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I. I don't disagree with a hundred less pages. And I think for me, when we're talking about memoirs, if the content is fire, the memoir works for me. If you want to bleed out Mark on the pages, like, I'm here for it. But, yeah, if we're looking at it literary wise, this very much is a corporate business executive.

[Becca Platzky]

Sorry, I mean, more like the first three quarters is, like, so repetitive of the same story over and over in all the different countries, and I feel like she could have tightened that so much and spent more time killing Mark. Like, I wanted more of the back half, more of the secrets, and less of the. Like, he didn't wave to the Prime Minister properly. It's like, okay, he didn't know. We don't know. He didn't listen to you. He sucks. But, like, does he suck for not listening to you, or does he suck for what happened with China? Like, let's stick with China.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. But I also think the amount of fact checking this book had to go through in terms of, like, what Facebook would be able to press on. I'm sure so much hit the cutting room floor that I was just thrilled. So much was still left inside it. So. So let's quickly discuss that. I don't know. I think I sort of. There are moments in life where you were like, I. I have apparently been preparing my entire life to be, I'm gonna say, the most qualified person ever to discuss the legal battle on this book. As someone who had her book redacted and is far from over it, I think I'm the perfect person to discuss how when you sign workplace agreements often, especially for corporations like this, you sign NDAs. And while the NDA may not have stopped her from writing the book. When they put non disparagement clauses inside legal contracts, which they do all the time, NDAs, other legal things, they just, like throw them in. That is what they can use to sue the author and sue the publisher. So a lot of people are like, well, it can't be defamation if it's true. Yeah, well, a disparagement clause works, especially when it's true, especially when it's been proven. They're like, you said you wouldn't disparage us for all of our shitty things and you're going to do it anyway. So she specifically really had a chance to write this book because in California, thank God, there's been a bill introduced and passed to make it so that those NDAs and non disparagement clauses don't hold up in court in cases of workplace harassment. So that thing you signs cannot be used against you if you are here because you were harassed, as Sarah was, by Joel, which we'll get to. And therefore she had a lot more leeway. But what she really had was a publisher who said, you know What? When Idiot McGee sues you for non disparagement and it takes some lawyer fees to go to the judge and say, this case doesn't hold up, we will pay those fees. Now, likely they wanted to do it because her book is guaranteed to make them millions of dollars.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm here for it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I'm here for it, too. And I just wish it applied to hypothetically, I wish it applied to other hypothetical small comedy gal memoirs that maybe hypothetically weren't gonna make you millions.

[Tracy Thomas]

But you know, what if I think that this is, you know, we'll get to the end in terms of the impact of this book. But assuming they make a lot of money off of this book, I would imagine that this might pave the way for future memoirs. Sarah Wynne Williams, at the end of this book, talks about whistleblower protections, which, I mean, in America are just absolutely like nothing compared to many other countries. And as a consequence of that, we don't get juicy tea like this very often. And so I think perhaps this will be a model for more juicy books like this one that ultimately bring a lot of accountability to these guys who otherwise would face none.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And I think that is so nice for everyone publishing a memoir in the future and so not nice for anyone who did, let's say, in June. Okay, so. And I. And I totally agree, Becca. And, you know, Facebook, immediately the book was announced. The next day, Facebook took all of Cuckerberg's ball sack money and said, sue her. And now she can't do press about the book. But it doesn't matter, because Barbra Streis, in effect, it's a number one bestseller simply by all these headlines about Facebook suing them to shut her up. Okay, so let's get into the actual book. Let's talk about Sarah and her actual job journey. And then, Tracy, I have a lot of things marked for the end, for ways in which maybe she failed us as a narrator. But I do want to enjoy all the tea first, which is to say she's working at the United Nations. She's from New Zealand. And so a big part of this book and a big positive for her is that she's an outsider to American culture. And it's sort of like, wait, what the fuck are you guys doing? And when someone at the United nations tells her that the movie Nemo did more for ocean safety than any of the United nations work for the past 100 years, she decides to quit. And then she pitches Facebook, her own job. Tracy, what did you think of that whole piece of it where she sees Facebook as, like, social change and incredible tool for revolution? She wants to be a part of it. It's gonna make an impact in all these countries. And she pitches them, and Facebook is like, that's not what Facebook does.

[Becca Platzky]

We.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We're just here for fun. And she's like, no, you're here for a revolution. And through many, many chapters, she finally gets a job.

[Becca Platzky]

I think it's really interesting. I think. Can we just backtrack a little bit to something that I think is important to the book and important to how she, like, frames it, which is the book starts with a shark attack, of which she survives, and her family doesn't listen to her when she feels like something is wrong. After, she goes to the doctor after the shark attack, and she ends up, like, having internal bleeding. And after the doctors sew her up and fix everything, her mom says, aren't you a lucky girl? The doctor saved you. And she gets a piece of paper and scrawls across the pad, I saved myself. And I think that that I saved myself is her entire thesis for this book, right? That is the setup. That's why there's the shark tale on the COVID This is a book about a shark attack, and Sarah Wynn Williams is the hero as far as she's concerned. And so I think from that very first story of her pitching the job, this is her saying, I'm saving Facebook. I'm Saving the world. I pitch this job because I have the vision. This is me. I'm carrying the world on my back. Which I think speaks to who she tells us that she is. But I do find it interesting that throughout the book, she is the hero when it's convenient. Like, she has the vision and no one else at Facebook saw it. But I have a lot of questions about that, too. Stick to it. If this. She really has it. I mean, she pitches the job, like, three times, right? Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Over the course of, I think, at least a year or more. It's interesting. I skipped the shark story at first because it is in my category of reasons why we don't trust this narrator because her family is. I mean, they should all be in prison. Seriously. Next to Mark Cuckerberg, she does have the worst parents in the entire world who are monsters. But, like, their child is throwing up blood, and they're like, mind over matters, sweetheart. And yes, it hits you on the head metaphor, like, you know, for. She saves herself from Shark Waters. And I think what's not talked about enough from her perspective is that she jumped into shark waters and she chose to stay for a very, very, very long time. And she is also a villain in this book, but doesn't know it. Yeah. And that's okay because, listen, she decided to cut the book deal first. I'm here for it.

[Becca Platzky]

Sarah, she's the least villain of this story because it's her story, right?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, no, I also think. I also do think she put in some good efforts, but I think to stay that long. And she has, like, nine chapters about why she didn't leave. And it's like, sarah, just own it. We likey money.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We don't think it's maybe that bad. And that's why.

[Becca Platzky]

Fine.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And lots of people do that. And instead she's like, no, no, I couldn't leave because I was pregnant. And it's like, okay, but what about five years ago when you said you needed to leave?

[Tracy Thomas]

So, yeah, I mean, I think the shark story is a metaphor in so many ways, too, because ultimately her parents don't really. It doesn't seem that she holds her parents accountable to that. It's kind of just like, oh, you know, it was of the time. It was all right. It was fine, and she suffered great harm. But she also doesn't take a ton of accountability for the harm that was put on other people. Right. Like, other vulnerable people, like she was when she was a kid. And so that was the thing for me that lacked at the End of this is like, she's here. She's complicit for all of these terrible things. Sure. I'm sure she stopped a little bit of it, but at the end, she's still complicit. She was still there. And she doesn't take a ton of accountability on herself. Where she wants it for Mark, she wants it for Joel, she wants it for Elliot and Cheryl.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's very well said. Well, so she's pitching this job, and. And from her perspective, she's like, facebook can heal the world in many ways. It's going to be the town square. And she sees it, and everyone at the company is like, that's not what we're doing.

[Becca Platzky]

And this is in 2010.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, because in 2011, she writes about this conversation she had with an executive named Marn or Marnie. Marn. And Marn doesn't give Sarah the job. But then Marn calls Sarah back when Arab Spring happens, and Sarah writes this. Uprisings and street protests organized on Facebook had started in Tunisia, and it spread to Libya, Yemen, Syria, and Egypt. When we'd met a month before, I'd mentioned how people were using Facebook to organize in authoritarian states in the Middle East. I told her, she's talking about Marn, this woman who works there. I told her this would eventually lead to conflict with governments that would try to shut down communication and put Facebook in a challenging position. Yeah, well, it's something that has come up. The media are quite interested. And then in response, she says, well, I guess we need to talk about China. And she's like, no, I'm not talking about China. I'm talking about Arab Spring. And then she says. Sarah says, yes. I say, how you answer the question about Arab Spring depends on what your strategy is in China. If you take credit for Arab Spring, you take credit for a people's revolution. China will be less likely to allow Facebook into China. I think we're just looking at this from the media. And then Martin responds, I just want to know if Mark should take credit for Arab Spring or not. And basically the press has come to him and be like, hey, Arab Spring.

[Tracy Thomas]

Did you do that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

And he's like, that.

[Becca Platzky]

I.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And then they call this random lady who has pitched them a job, and they're like, what should he say? Because we have no international relations expert here. I was gagged at this. What did you guys think of Arab Spring? To Sarah Wynne working at Facebook Pipeline.

[Tracy Thomas]

All right, I'm reading another book because we're doing an episode on Facebook. And in that book it says that Mark Zuckerberg doesn't read, period. He doesn't read.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That wasn't a question in my mind. I think that's clear.

[Tracy Thomas]

He has no interest in books. No one's ever seen him read a book. And I think that we talked about this last episode. Chelsea. Despite the fact that all these people went to Harvard, they are not inquisitive. They're not looking out and thinking about the world around them. They call some random chick that they just met last week and says, do you want to take credit for one of the most consequential things that have happened in the Middle east this century? Is it your fault or not? And it's so simplistic to them. The other thing is, again, this consequential event in the Middle east, they're strictly looking at through a business lens. That's the only way they see the world. Everything is okay. Well, eventually we do want to move into China. Every billionaire business boy wants China. It's not like a unique thing. And that's their only motivation. They're so simple minded. And to me, this was just another notch on. On that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I just want to underline what you said at the beginning where it's like, imposter syndrome is not allowed for anyone I am personally in contact with. Because the amount of Harvard fucking dumbassery in this book, almost as if going to Harvard makes you stupid. Like, that is what it's starting to be like, where it's like, hey, you're going to think you're so smart at 18 that you'll start stop ever learning and actually become the dumbest person ever by the time you graduate.

[Becca Platzky]

This book made me think of like how or what they're teaching because one of the things I think so interesting is like a lot of good ideas or like good concepts do come out of Harvard, but they all lack like the further vision. Harvard's like, come up with an idea, don't expand it, don't think of what it could. No five year goal, no 10. Just like, baby, what? It's weight. It's rating women on the Internet, Facebook. Love it, love it. Stick with that. Code it. Maybe you change the design, maybe you add a status bar. Don't think about what happens when people use it. Like, there's just no vision. That to me was the biggest takeaway of this entire book. And I think this early story is like, similar to the Shark story, one of the most important stories in the entire book because the same thing happens over and over. This happens. What do we do? Well, did you think about what could happen next? Nope. What do we do? Okay, well, you should think about what happens next. Nope. What do we do? What does Mark say? Literally now, this exact minute, what does Mark say?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Becca Platzky]

Like, that's the whole thing. Hire a visionary. Just hire like a. Hire a liberal arts college thinking person.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And Sarah is the closest they have to that. And I think even more specific to that, Tracy, is that no one seems to think outside of America at all. To the point where they're like, okay, Facebook needs to grow in value. Let's go to other countries. And Sarah's like, right, so Germany is like really hip to the government surveillance because of. I don't know what happened in Germany. And so, like, they're really not going to like, tech surveillance on their people. And they're like, what do you mean? And then she's like, in other countries don't have the Internet. And they're like, oh, no, how they going to get Facebook then? Yeah, we got to give them the Internet so they can get on Facebook. And it's like. That's your main thought?

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so can I just add one more thing here? The culture that's happening at early Facebook and in a lot of these startups around the same time. Imagine you're working with a bunch of people who think the same thing as you, who have the same background as you. They all think they're doing the most important work in the world. And also what a lot of people don't talk about is a lot of them not saying the executive talked about in this book, but a lot of the people in that office also have an amphetamine use disorder. And a lot of people don't talk about this. But wait, what? They're addicted to Adderall?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. How are you saying this with such surety? Like, I can guess. I've seen Wolf of Wall street, but.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's a known thing in Silicon Valley, especially in the early aughts, where there is a lot of non prescription amphetamine use going on. So in this book, for example, she talks about somebody who works into the wee hours of the night and. And doesn't eat. And I'm not. It's.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, obviously cocaine.

[Becca Platzky]

Well.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or something. Right. And so you have all these different things. You have people who think that it's. I'm not saying that everybody is doing this, but it's all these different elements. You have people who think what they're doing is important. Nobody's pushing back on them. At all. They may or may not be on amphetamines and they have a shit ton of money, and it absolutely is going to lead to catastrophe. And everybody is only opening the doors. We're about to have Obama in office who basically just rolls out the red carpet for a lot of these tech companies and says, yes, do whatever you want. We'll take away all the regulations. And it's just like this, this environment. And a lot of people don't talk about that. But there's like a mental deficiency at this point among these executives because of the power that they're experiencing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is the only thing that makes sense. So thank you because as you're reading this, you're like, impressive, Impossible. Like, I host a celebrity memoir podcast. I can't be thinking, I would have done a better job here. Like, something's wrong. And it's like, oh, okay, you fried your brain with drugs. That is the only thing that can explain some of these decisions. I want to read some of what happens. Each day in Facebook's policy team brings fresh chaos. The Mexican president is hit by a poop emoji storm on his page and petitions us for its immediate removal. Cheryl asks if she should support a viral campaign to arrest Joseph Kony, the Ugandan militant responsible for abducting thousands of children for his army. ISIS post will be heading video on the site. A group of mothers stage a breastfeeding sit in to protest Facebook's policy on nipples. A rabbi posts that he's having coffee and a muffin in Israel, but Facebook's map says he's in Palestine.

[Becca Platzky]

I feel like, to Becca's point earlier, also on top of, like, all the things you said, also another piece of, like, the Silicon Valley thing is, like, so much of it is aesthetic. So much of it is an obsession with, like, looking right or, like, appearing right. And I feel like that is really one of the huge problems again, that we see at Facebook, especially in this era. I mean, when the German, like, the German diplomat group comes in and they're like, this building does not look safe. And they're like, no, we, like, took the walls down because it's like, shows you that we're working from the ground up. And they're like, yeah, babe, you shouldn't have that vent exposed. And they're like, no, it's cool. Like, it's like we did it on purpose. Like, all of those things happening. It's like there's no substance. It's all aesthetic. And that's why you get in a situation where it's what do we do for each one of these things? Because you don't actually have a clear plan. You just, like, want to break stuff. Like, act fast and break stuff or whatever. Whatever. The fuck.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They're talking about the poster in Facebook, Move fast and break things.

[Becca Platzky]

That's like their motto.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's what.

[Becca Platzky]

That's what she said. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you have no values, and you have no true values. Like, again, mark Zuckerberg is 23, dropped out of college and never really created a full value system. Imagine, once you're 23, nobody ever. Justin Bieber is the closest to him in terms of developmental, you know, milestones. Right? Nobody tells this kid no. And so when he's like, I love Andrew Jackson. It's probably like the last history gen Ed he took at Harvard talked about Andrew Jackson and then he just, like, got that stuck in his head and never read a book ever since. So it's like, yeah, he's got no values that can mean anything other than, I want more bigger.

[Becca Platzky]

There's no moral compass. There's no ethical compass. There's, like, no direction or like, it's. I mean, this sounds really, like, dramatic, but, like, it's soulless. Like, there's no soul to these companies. And I think it's why so many of the, like, tech startups fail, because they really don't have anything that they're rooted to. This is just like, what are they. What do they call it, Becca, when it's like, the white elephant or whatever.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The unicorn.

[Becca Platzky]

Like, the unicorn in business, like the company. Yeah. I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

I like white elephant.

[Becca Platzky]

Know a few animals.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. White elephant is a fun little gift. I want to read the Andrew Jackson quote, Becca, because I wrote. Oh, my God. Listen, I was surprised to see Mark Zuckerberg stand behind Trump because, you know, he loves Obama in the book and he loves all these things. And so I was thinking, like, oh, there was a huge switch in him. There was no. This was always coming. I asked him who Andrew Jackson is and why he likes him so much. Mark explains that Jackson's the greatest president America has ever had, and he was ruthless, a populist and an individualist, and that he, quote, got stuff done. He also spilled a lot of blood expanding the territory of the United States sent five native tribes out onto the Trail of Tears. But Mark doesn't mention that. What about Lincoln or Roosevelt? I asked, pushing my foreigner credentials. Wouldn't you say they got stuff done? Couldn't one of them be the greatest? No. Mark says firmly It's Jackson. Not even close. And Andrew Jackson is Trump's, I don't know, archangel. Like, Andrew. Andrew Jackson, like, is who Trump would think is his favorite president. So it's like, oh, he does respect Trump. Like, he thinks he's doing a good job. It's not just a business move. Is that what you gu. Took from it?

[Becca Platzky]

Well, I took a lot of things from that quote. That was really a big moment for me. I don't think that Mark Zuckerberg will ever have a problem with any president because I don't think politics in the way that they matter to us, matter to people like Mark Zuckerberg. It matters to him in a totally different way about what he's able to get done as the CEO for his company. And so I think the reason he loved Obama is because Obama made him get things done that he wanted to do. And he likes Trump because Trump's on his side right now. I think if tomorrow Trump said Facebook is illegal, Mark Zuckerberg would not think. You know, like, I don't. I don't think that Mark Zuckerberg's politics are rooted, again, in values. I think they're rooted in what happens to the business. I think the Andrew Jackson thing is just something that white boys say because they think it's, like, funny and subversive to be like, oh, my favorite president is Andrew. Like, it's like anybody who says Lincoln to Abby, anybody who said, you know, like, it's like saying Andrew Jackson is being like, oh, yeah, I love Grover Cleveland, like, Wild Guy. I feel like it's like something you can say. It's a president he probably knows, but it's also a little subversive, so it makes him sound cool.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But he does love the populism and the individualist nature of him, which I think is a specific. That is a specific care about politics that he doesn't show otherwise. And I want to be clear that Trump is not for the common people, but he did run on populist talking points, like, it's me versus the elitists in Washington. So that's. That's what I'm tying to. This specifically.

[Becca Platzky]

No, but I think that speaks to Mark Zuckerberg because he's the populist CEO. He's the people's CEO, I think.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, who said that? What are you talking about?

[Becca Platzky]

Well, because everybody's on Facebook. Everybody knows Mark Zuckerberg. He's so famous. I think in his brain, he's picking Andrew Jackson because Andrew Jackson speaks to him, not because Andrew Jackson speaks to his political beliefs, because I don't think he has political beliefs. I think he has financial beliefs, and I think he has business beliefs. And I think any current president who works with him and doesn't embarrass him, he likes. Yeah, I think anybody who puts him on the spot. So I think you can draw a line between Andrew Jackson and Trump, certainly for, like, regular people. But I think in my mind, the line between Andrew Jackson is directly to who Mark Zuckerberg thinks he is. He thinks he's Andrew Jackson. He thinks he gets things done. He thinks people like him, he's changing things, he's disrupting the system. He's Andrew Jackson.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Interesting. That's how I read it. Well, and you know what? It does go along with what Sarah said, where she's like, he doesn't care about politics. He doesn't want to be a part of them. He doesn't know where anything is. He doesn't want to have anything to do with it. And she's kind of there against his will in her job. And it's Sheryl Sandberg who's like, oh, no, no, no. I worked in Washington. Politics is where it's at. Mommy love politics. Well, on page 59, I want to read this. During the 2010 midterm elections in the United States, Facebook did an experiment in driving voter turnout. We put a message at the top of the newsfeed encouraging people to vote with a link to polling places and an I voted button they could click as part of a gigantic randomized trial with a control group. A study published in Nature, I guess that's the magazine or journal name, showed that 61 million people saw the button, and it actually changed people's behavior. It led to an additional 340,000 people voting. So in 2010, they know it's political power, whether you care about it or not. And their next move is not like.

[Becca Platzky]

Can I ask a question, please? Do you. Do you all think that Facebook took the I voted thing as we now have political power?

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, I'm saying they ignored it.

[Becca Platzky]

Right. But, like, I guess what I'm wondering is, like, when do you think Facebook actually realized what Sarah had been trying to tell them? That, to me, wasn't clear in the book.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think it was after Trump wins. And they explain how Trump's team used their own advertising algorithm to pull off the greatest advertising campaign of all time. And then Cheryl's like, that's awesome. We should hire the guy who thought of that. I think after Trump's win. And then someone Explained it. They finally understood what Facebook could do. What do you think? If you could guess.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I think it was before that. And this is where I go back to her being an unreliable narrator. Because the whole thing about the Arab Spring, the fact that they had. I had no idea about this. A Facebook employee, full time Facebook salaried employee, working within the Trump campaign to make sure that his advertising dollars were well spent. They had to have known. The other thing is, you gotta realize that these guys that were in Trump's inauguration, Elon, Zuck, Bezos, they all hang out together and they all talk together. Bezos bought the Washington Post, Elon Musk bought Twitter. They all have a deep understanding that the person who controls the narrative controls everything. And that's international politics, that's local politics, that's everything. And so I think Sarah did them a bit of a favor by acting like, oh, Mark, I'm a little baby. I didn't know that this was gonna affect the election. Like, it's just, I think they knew. I think they knew early on. And Cheryl's too smart to know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But when you say they, are you saying, Mark, because like in this book, he can't win Settlers of Catan. So in this book, like, he is a fucking dumbass. And it would be like, Cheryl, who would have known, Right. But then she's describing Cheryl being blown away by how they worked Facebook's algorithm. So you're right, if that part of this book is true, they didn't know and kind of stumbled their way in. They followed the money. They followed, yeah, politics, yeah, whatever. There's following money. And then this happens and then they hone in on it and go, okay, it's a political weapon. But you're saying that they knew way before then this is a political weapon. And, and that's why they didn't install someone in Hillary's campaign. Is that what we're saying?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, that's a good question.

[Becca Platzky]

I thought Hillary's campaign didn't want it. I thought Hillary's campaign said no, I'm unclear on that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But I do think in this book's purpose, she talks about how even the people who, like Joel, who we're going to get to insist installed someone in the Trump administration, still was like, it doesn't matter that I'm helping them because Hillary's obviously going to win. And I think a lot of people felt that way.

[Becca Platzky]

I think that Joel is the turning point for when things got political inside of Facebook. His hiring.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, quickly. You're talking about Joel Kaplan, who Like, basically was a part of the Brooks Brothers riot, which, by the way, so fudgeing. Embarrassing. The Brooks Brothers riot that helped get George Bush elected. And he went to Harvard, dated Cheryl, and then got this job. Okay, continue.

[Becca Platzky]

There's a lot of people who work at Facebook who aren't at the top who probably saw this and understood what was happening and were being like, we should keep the vote button. There are people who are probably quite competent at that company who aren't in the C suite, who probably were pulling strings. You know, that Sarah probably doesn't even know because she's in the diplomat corner. She's not, you know, whatever. But I think that Joel. The hiring of Joel and Joel's takeover is when things start to get overtly political. I definitely think it is possible that Mark did not know what Joel was doing, because it does sound like they were keeping Mark.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, it's because Mark's a fucking idiot. And even if they said it to his face, it wouldn't retain.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Becca Platzky]

I like, I think they were keeping Mark happy, playing on his little planes and having his fast food. Like, I think. I think Joel and Cheryl were running that company for sure.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Absolutely.

[Becca Platzky]

Maybe Cheryl was surprised. But that also would track that if Joel is the one who's sort of, like, pulling the strings, he knows that Cheryl's political and trying to, like, do, like, maneuver in his own way because he's power hungry, too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I do not believe anyone was smart enough to do this. I believe they were dumb enough to do this. And I, before reading this book, I was like, these evil motherfuckers. And after reading this book, and yes, it does mean I've got to buy into Sarah's narrative. I was going, oh, wait a minute. They made a bunch of dumbass decisions that led to this and, like, accidentally oopsie boopsied their way to power, but they couldn't hold on to the power and they couldn't use the power when they went to take it to other countries. So I just really don't think they had a grasp on it. However, we're going to come back to Joel.

[Becca Platzky]

Also, the woman who she worked under is Marnie, not Marn.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's not Marn, it's Marnie.

[Becca Platzky]

That's how she says it in the audiobook.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But isn't it funnier to think of a woman named Marne being like, I don't know what you're talking about with China.

[Becca Platzky]

I mean, you can stick with Martin. I'm just.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm sticking with Marn. But let's talk about Myanmar. So, okay, there's a part one and two to this that we could probably do three hours on. So just to try and give you the highlights, Myanmar has, what is it, 60 million people. That mark Cucky boy is like, they could be on Facebook. And they're like, well, they don't have the Internet and like are still working on fax machines and are a developing nation. And he's like, let's give them good Internet then. And so they send Sarah over there who has this insane story about like not even being able to hail a cab to get to the junta where she like has a meeting set up with people who she thinks are going to kill her and somehow like flags down a man on the road and Mime's government building and he takes her there. It's just. And. But I do think that story is supposed to be in the book to illustrate where they are in their communication in that country. And then I want to read what happens later on. And this is, this is definitely a part where it's like, Sarah, you set this up. Like you told us the story of you setting this up, but you're talking about what happened there like you didn't know. Hold on, let me read it. In 2014, one year after I met with the junta, we get reports that there is hate speech on their Facebook, obviously and mobs are burning down mosques. And I'm going to continue speaking, but this is a trigger warning for intense sexual assault and violence. So please skip ahead as I continue this section. If you are not in a place to hear that, but there is a series of really intense rapes and really intense numbers towards Muslims Muslim women. And Sarah is trying to ping the guy who runs Myanmar's Facebook to shut down these hate groups. And that's when she realized it's. It's a single man who, in Ireland, who doesn't. Who's not awake on the hours that Myanmar needs these.

[Becca Platzky]

He's out. He's out. Out to dinner.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And he's like, I don't have my laptop behind me. She's like, okay, well can, like thousands of people are like currently being mobbed and murdered and raped. Like, could you go shut down the group that is facilitating this communication? And he's like, let me, let me try and find my laptop. In a country where most people treat Facebook as though it is, the Internet leadership has assign two full time Burmese staffers and it is unclear whether they are employees or contractors. And they're based in Dublin. And then, she says, in August, the military launches a campaign of atrocities against the Muslim population that the UN later describes as genocide and crimes against humanity. At least 10,000 people are murdered. What the world will later learn is that the military had set up a massive operation, at least 700 people, to spread misinformation and hate on Facebook. This was revealed by a reporter named Paul Moser in the New York Times. Sources in the military's secret operation told him how they created and took over verified accounts that had huge followings, fan accounts for pop stars and celebrities, the Facebook page for a military hero, and use them to pump out false, inflammatory posts. Troll accounts run by the military, help spread the content, shut down critics, and fuel arguments between commentators to rile people up. And this leads to thousands of murders and gang rapes of women and children who are Muslim. This is bad. Thank you, Tracey.

[Becca Platzky]

Very bad.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Very bad.

[Becca Platzky]

Facebook. Let me help you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, thank you.

[Becca Platzky]

Bad.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Bad job, Sarah. Bad job, Mark. And there is seemingly no consequence.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, my question is, these companies are never going to regulate themselves, but where the fuck is Interpol? Where the fuck is, you know, any international crime fighting organization that if this were an organized crime syndicate that was pumping propaganda and inflammatory speech into another country, it would be game over. But because what. Tell me why. Like, not to scare people, but one thing that I got from this book is anytime anything bad happens again, Trump winning the election because of misinformation on Facebook, the lessons that Facebook learns are the worst type of lessons, which seem to be, how can we do this again, but faster, better, and make more money at it? And so when I feel like there's a heck of a lot more misinformation and really disturbing speech on the Internet in 2025 than in 2020. And I look at other stories, you know, like Myanmar, it's quite frightening because we kind of know the outcome here, and the people who are responsible are also in the White House right now. Mark Zuckerberg is in the White House.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And there is. I mean, this episode would be a million hours, but it's just like they then try and take Facebook into China, which also has an authoritarian regime, and they. And the way they end up doing it is being like, hey, guess what? We will give the government access to everyone's information so you can spy on them more easily. As long as you sign them up on Facebook, they go to India and wreak havoc. And then this is the last thing I'll talk about. And then we're moving on to Joel Kaplan, boyfriend number one. But this is the part of the book that I was most grateful for and so happy that I read, she said. Over the course of the 10 hour flight to Lima, Elliot patiently explains to Mark all the ways that Facebook basically handed the election to Donald Trump. It's pretty fucking convincing and pretty fucking concerning Facebook embedded staff and Trump's campaign team in San Antonio for months, alongside Trump campaign programmers, ad copywriters, media buyers, network engineers, and data scientists, a Trump operative named Brad Parscale ran the operation together with the embedded Facebook staff. And he basically invented a new way for political campaigns to shit post its way to the White House, targeting voters with misinformation, inflammatory posts, and fundraising messages. Boz, who is not the boss from Real Housewives.

[Tracy Thomas]

I thought the same thing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. Boz, who led the ads team, described it as the single best digital ad campaign I've ever seen from any advertiser. Period. In fact, Facebook was the Trump campaign's largest source of cash. And then when they explain it to Cheryl, she says, do you think we might have a shot at hiring Trump's guy, Prad Parscale to come work at Facebook? No one said anything. After an awkward moment, Chase and she shifted gears. Of course that's silly. He can have his pickup jobs right now. A pause. But maybe there are others from the Trump campaign we could bring inside Facebook. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Mario Spistro. The specialty tonight is the beef carpaccio. With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the basketball game tickets your friends paid you back for into a romantic dinner that you can earn up to.

[Becca Platzky]

5% cash back on.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Use your Venmo balance to pay for the things you love to do.

[Becca Platzky]

Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by Mastercard International, Inc. Terms apply. Dosh Cashback terms apply. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. The Amateur when his wife is murdered, Charlie Heller, the CIA's most brilliant computer analyst, must trek across the globe and use his only weapon, his intelligence, to hunt down her killers and enact revenge. Starring Academy Award winner Rami Malek and Academy Award nominee Laurence Fishburne. The Amateur. Rated PG13. Only in theaters April 11th. You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Becca Platzky]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode so this is kind of what we were just discussing. I. For me, I felt so sad about all the hours wasted of anyone arguing with family members, of any talk about her pantsuits, Hillary Clinton's likability, him going on snl. Like, all of those things. We wasted time and energy wondering how he won, when the truth is that people were educated via Facebook's platform to believe lies, and that's how they voted for him. This, to me, gave me, honestly, relief. But how did it read for you guys?

[Becca Platzky]

I don't think relief is the word I would use. I think the things you're talking about, like, people like, arguing and all of that online, I think that was part of the design of this ad campaign. Like, I think this was.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I feel bad for all the people who were like, I know I'll just, like, argue with my dad about racism, where it's like, no, honey, he's been served what he thinks are news articles for eight months that are completely made up. And when I say relief, I mean, it's nice to know that all these people were walked into this versus, like, a true, genuine, on their own. You know what? I'm really mad at Obama. I'm voting, voting for Trump.

[Becca Platzky]

Didn't we know this at the time? Wasn't there so much reporting about all the misinformation going on at the time? So I don't think this part of the book, like, felt like new information to me. I think hearing it, like. Like the paragraph you just read, like, hearing it all laid out in one concise little chunk was like, great, that's helpful. Thank you for doing that. Like, very clearly, like, exactly what happened. But I feel like at the time, like, in the lead up to the election, through the. How did this happen? New York Times sits down with white people at a diner. Like, that whole media narrative.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ah, my favorite time.

[Becca Platzky]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Take me back. The nostalgia.

[Becca Platzky]

Take me back. We're going to North Dakota to figure out how did this happen. I think to me, that part of the book was probably the most, like, thank you for just saying it out loud. But I also think, like, that did not feel like newsworthy to me as far as, like, the way that the book was covered. Like, really, this is like the bombshell. I'm like, but we knew.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, I think we knew this as a piece of it. I think I. And I, I. You know what? I guarantee. And if this, I'll go back and I'll cut this out like a coward If I'm incorrect. But I guarantee I could go back to those think pieces that emerged immediately after of how this happened, and this would be a piece of that pie. But I remember Hillary's campaign guy. My fucking. Forget his name. I think he's a Harvard blondie. Robbie Mook. Robbie Mook. And he literally did a two hour. What went wrong? And they focused on the four states that she did not go to enough, like Wisconsin. Whereas the only thing that they should have been saying is that he used Facebook's ad algorithm to lie to everyone. And that should have been our number one talking point. And it absolutely wasn't. And I know I saw shit about, like, the way she dresses.

[Becca Platzky]

I know. No, you did. But I'm saying. I'm saying that that stuff, the. The way she dresses, all of those things were part of the design of the thing. So talking about them is proving the point of the thing. But I also don't think that Hillary's campaign manager can go on after losing and be like, hey, so, Facebook conspiracy theory. This, this, this, and this. Because then people are just going to be like, that's a sore loser. That's a conspiracy.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, but that's what I'm saying, Tracy. Like, now we have, like, that's not a conspiracy theory. It was not overblown. And the fact that.

[Becca Platzky]

No, I know, but I'm saying in the moment, you can't do that. Like, in the moment, you can't take your l. So then it is new information, but it's not new information because it was reported on. I mean, it's connected to the Cambridge.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But not enough.

[Becca Platzky]

It was all.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But not enough.

[Becca Platzky]

Not enough.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, like, do you think if we went and just grabbed one person from every state and asked them how Trump won the election and Hillary lost, would they all be saying it's because they. They put the most money into Facebook and stole it via misinformation? Or do you think you would get 100 different reasons?

[Becca Platzky]

I think misinformation, for sure, is a reason that people think that Trump won the campaign.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I absolutely guarantee half the people would say it was because her voice was annoying.

[Becca Platzky]

I mean, yes, but that doesn't mean that that information wasn't reported. It just means those people didn't read the information. I think that's my point. To me, it wasn't surprising because I was paying attention at the time as this was coming out of what was going on. But also, there was so much reporting at the time of, like, Facebook misinformation. People are having A hard time connecting with their family members who are on Facebook. Get your parents off Facebook. Get your parents off Fox News. It's misinformation. They're not cracking down on misinformation. There were so many articles of like, this is what it says on Facebook. This is the truth. So, like, I don't know that anecdotally, if you picked a random person, if they would say that. But it doesn't mean it wasn't.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, I'm doing a science. I'm doing a science data riffic polling.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I guess my question is it just happened again, like eight months ago, and they ran the same playbook again to get Trump elected in 2024. And again, we'd have to go back and look. I didn't see misinformation this time as the biggest reason. Like, when I think about Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer and all these other guys, they don't talk about it that much. But I think one thing to think about when other politicians talk about it is they get a shit ton of money from Facebook too. We have to think about too, like, the people's motivations for calling out misinformation with these tech companies, because sometimes they get paid by them. And so it's like, that's also very scary because I think we normal people understand what a big problem this is. I mean, beyond just misinformation, also just isolation, loneliness. I mean, we could talk about Facebook and the way that it has corrupted a lot of young men in this country in a scary way that makes them quite militant. And also Elon Musk has had them literally sign up for a fricking militia in Wisconsin. But that's quite terrifying. But why aren't people calling it out? I don't know. Where did they get their lobbying money from?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. And I do think, Tracy, to your point, I do think the information is there, but like, let me even just put this on myself. And after this last election, one big pain point for me was like, why couldn't the Democrats get one clear talking point together? And. And I have said that, and I have felt that, and I feel that. And all I should have felt was why didn't they work Facebook ads better? And that's what I'm trying to say.

[Becca Platzky]

But, but I think my. I think my pushback to that, Chelsea, is that what the Democrats did and failed to do is, yes, related to what Trump campaign did, but also not exclusively the fault of Trump's campaign. Like, the Democrats are fucking up across the Board because they, like Becca saying they're beholden to these companies, they're beholden to these donors. And also I think it would be remiss, not to mention another piece of, of the Trump campaign both in 2016 and in 2024, which is extreme overt racism and xenophobia, which is such a sexy, sexy thing for people who are racist and xenophobic. Like, and I think that is not misinformation. That is playing to something else. That was a huge piece of what happened. So, yes, Facebook was a huge part of what happened in 2016 and 2024 and will probably continue to be a huge part of our elections until people like all adults get off Facebook. Like me, a lightened person. But I think that is not, that is not to be divorced from the rhetoric that was coming out of the Trump campaign that the Democrats do not have a strategy to go up against around racism, homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia. But what Trump tapped into emotionally with people when he would get up on stage and those points were reinforced on Facebook was a whole other thing that, like, we cannot blame Facebook for the xenophobia, racism, homophobia, like trans, like all of that yucky shit. It only works because it comes out of America easily and organically. He didn't rewrite the playbook, he just did it on Facebook. But like, the playbook is the playbook.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I slightly disagree. And that Facebook was such a, by these numbers in this book, the number one way he got that message out, yes, he has big rallies, but Facebook is where that message came out. And we spent equal amounts of time talking about Fox News when we should have been talking about Facebook ads and Facebook ad spending. And I do think to Sarah's point, had this been regulated in any way at all, he would not have won. And that is why I think going and regulating Fox misinformation, I do not think would have had the same impact as regulating Facebook disinformation. Had they done that, I don't think you would have won single handedly with Facebook. And we spent a lot of fucking time in diners trying to figure out where people were homophobic and not enough time talking about the ad spend on Facebook. That's how I feel.

[Becca Platzky]

Having read this, I don't fully agree with that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

All right, Becca.

[Becca Platzky]

I just, I don't think we could give Facebook credit for the centuries of history of America. Like this playbook that he pulled from is Nixon's playbook.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, yes. And Nixon used the radio and Trump used Facebook. And then in this one, he used podcasts, and I think we can look at those.

[Becca Platzky]

But what. I'm kidding, right? Yes, but that's what I'm saying. Chelsea is like, you can. You can blame Facebook for how he did it, but you can't blame Facebook for what he did.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Becca, you're going to tiebreak us. She's just been sitting, watching this.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm enjoying. Genuinely enjoying this. I'm really happy.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, it's as if you are a moderator at a Trump Hillary debate, but Tracy and I are both Trump, and we're both talking over time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, Becca, let me disagree with both of you, which is that Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, they reward hate speech, they reward divisive content. And unfortunately, let's shore up. Social Security is not neither of those things. And so even if the Democrats had a message that was compelling, it would not have gone out as quickly and as effectively as Trump's messaging went out. But I think that speaks to two things. First, the fact that algorithms reward that type of speech. And second, what Tracy is saying, which is, it's there within America, and people want to see it and they want to share it. And so I agree with you both. And I disagree with you both. The end.

[Becca Platzky]

I knew you were going to be diplomatic.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, well, then sign me up for the Democrats, because I think you could run an ad that says, Trump dick punched sweet farmer and railroaded his wife and. And ruined his life. And then you click it open and it says, because he ended Social Security, Trump is stealing from you. Trump is stealing from hardworking Americans. I think that ad would get some play. I think that could go places. Okay, let's discuss Joel Kaplan. So Joel Kaplan comes in because they're like, Facebook is, like, really good with Democrats and liberals. Like, that's what we're about. We need someone who can speak to all these Republican dodos on this platform because, like, we're not harnessing it. And they bring in Joel Kaplan, who's a dodo Republican, and what, Sheryl Sandberg's ex boyfriend from Harvard. Now, I. I want to hear your thoughts on this, because my primary thought is, like, you shouldn't be able to have such a close relationship with one of your ex boyfriends. Just trying to think, like, is there any ex boyfriend of mine I could pull into any business matter that wouldn't be wholly embarrassing for me? I don't think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's such a good question, dude.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, like, why is she. She's, like, always like, oh, well, Cheryl dated him. Now she wants to put him in the cabinet. Well, Cheryl dated him. Now he runs advertising. It's like, wait, these are good qualifications. These don't rule them out.

[Becca Platzky]

Lean in, baby. Lean in.

[Tracy Thomas]

So can I add a quote that I took out?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

So this is from halfway through the book. Facebook's leadership includes a web of people all entangled as bridesmaids, best friends, neighbors, and exes. Their fealty is seemingly to each other, their tribe ahead of any ideology or anything else. Their past presents and futures are all deeply intertwined in a way that mine, Sarah's are not. They hire each other for jobs with big salaries, responsible for each other's promotions and bonuses. A tiny and mesh group of people increasingly responsible for shaping the attention of billions. Their preferences are turned into policy. And I've seen this story. I'm not surprised at all that Cheryl hired her ex boyfriend. We recently covered the Sam Bankman Fried FTX debacle, which involved Sam Bankman Fried and a bunch of his college buddies living in the Bahamas, which we called SBF Story. Young kids sucking and fucking. And that's the exact thing that happens at Google, the exact things that happens at Facebook. These are just people who are developmentally in college still trying to live that life. And that's why they hire their exes, because it's the same supper clubs that they had at Harvard that they just want to recreate because, like, it was socially very good for them. And in the real world, everybody thinks they're fucking annoying and dumb.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, very true. Okay, Becca, in your, in your experience, does this go both ways? Are there a bunch of men in business that's like, you know what? Hire my ex girlfriend Tiffany to run this wing. Like, I feel like it was specifically Cheryl being like, I fucked the best idiots at Harvard. Bring them in. Like, I, I, it feels very, it felt very gender to me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've certainly never seen it. I've studied. You know, I'm on my 45th company for the corporate gossip podcast, and I've never seen a man hire his ex girlfriend. So that's, that's right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's what I'm receiving, responding to right now.

[Tracy Thomas]

Fuck you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And you're lean in politics, Cheryl. How fudgeing. Dare you? Let's talk about Cheryl and Joel at the same time. So what happens with Joel is that during Sarah's maternity leave, which Cheryl is like, ooh, don't have a baby. You need to work. And she's like, what, what about lean in?

[Becca Platzky]

What's the lean in thing? It's like, don't leave before you leave. Yeah, she's literally, like, induced. Like, I haven't left yet. Let me send my email.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Becca Platzky]

Like, sarah, bitch, get off the phone, girl. Oh.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Sarah was giving birth and writing Cheryl an email, and her husband is like, please don't do this. Please, like, I don't know, focus on the birth of our child. And then a nurse comes in and says, you might regret not being present for your. Your firstborn birth experience.

[Tracy Thomas]

The crowning.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, the crowning.

[Becca Platzky]

Which is like, usually what people say to dads who are, like. Who, like, are professional athletes. Like, no, you gotta miss the game. Like, you might regret it. It's like, bitch, you're gonna be here. You're here already. Like, you. You have to have the baby. Like, you can't be somewhere else, so you might as well be here for the next eight hours.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And then you think she's going to be like. And that's what changed my mind. And instead, she's, like, meant nothing to me. Still sent an email to Cheryl as I was giving birth. I have a weird deja vu of having heard this story before, of other people emailing Sheryl Sandberg as they're giving birth. Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

[Becca Platzky]

Maybe that's like, Cheryl Kink. Like, the bed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, we have.

[Becca Platzky]

It's like, get in the bed with me. Text me while you're delivering.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, let's just move my bras. Let's move to Cheryl. So at one point in the book, she's like, cheryl has written Lean In. And now, like, all. It's like, girl, girl, boss, Facebook. Like, Cheryl's leading us, you guys. And Cheryl, in order to promote Lean in, uses a bunch of fucking free labor from all her female employees to get the book on its feet, including, like, Sarah has to go work Cheryl's Lean in events, and her job is holding Cheryl's business cards so that Cheryl's hands are free to work the room.

[Becca Platzky]

She's pregnant at the time.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, yes.

[Becca Platzky]

And. And Sarah's pregnant at the time. So they're like, go stand, like, close to Cheryl. Like, with your. Like, can you get your stomach, like, closer to Cher?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Becca Platzky]

Can we rest the book on your stomach?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. But it's like, what's crazier that she asked Sarah to do that? Or that she thinks she can't have her business cards in her pocket as she's working the room?

[Becca Platzky]

Or that anybody's using business cards in 2013?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, you're. You're Facebook. You're a tech company.

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah. Don't you have, like, a little digi card? Just say, follow me on Facebook. Hello. That's what I used to do back then. I'd meet someone out. I'd be like, okay, follow me on Facebook. And then we're dating. You know what I mean? Then he works at my company.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, 100%. And look, Cheryl is in the book as, like, she realizes, oh, Facebook is a political weapon. We should use this as a political weapon. Like, she learns all this early on. She's very fucking evil. But by far, the story that is most shocking in this book about Sheryl Sandberg is the come to bed story. Who wants to tell it?

[Becca Platzky]

I don't think I'm going to do a good job because it sort of washed over me as I was.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I'm happy to do it. So Sarah is on a private jet with Cheryl. Sarah is literally about to give birth. She has three children. In the book for one of these births, she is very pregnant. Traveling all over the world, which is, you know, if you're pregnant, not really what you're supposed to do in, like, your eighth month.

[Tracy Thomas]

But one of the flight attendants took a couple night nursing classes. Says her hr.

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah. And didn't the HR girl be like, say, like, I'll be on the plane with you? She was like, well, what's the.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's like, well, are you a doctor? And she's like, no, but I'm hr. And basically, Sarah's like, hey, I really don't think I should travel. Like, I've had a lot of issues with my pregnancies that are medical. And, like, I am in my, you know, seventh and eighth month. And they were like, well, get on the plane. We have a first aid kit from Target. And so she gets on the plane, and then Cheryl, who made her go on this trip, has a bedroom on the plane and a bed you can lie down in. And she has packed her silk pajamas, and she's in her pajamas and she's, like, bouncing around. And she's like, instead of like, hey, let's give Sarah, the pregnant person, the bed to sleep in, she does something better. She says, sarah, come to bed. And this means come to bed with Cheryl. Come to bed with her. And this is when she starts to talk about her Cheryl's assistant, Sadie, and how they, like, sit on each other's laps and how Cheryl once sent Sadie with her credit card to buy lingerie for them. Both of like, get you some sexy lingerie and get me some sexy lingerie.

[Tracy Thomas]

For my husband and model it for me?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, model it for me so I can see if the lingerie is sexy. And then the lingerie is like $3,000. And they have this very, like, ooey gooey relationship. So when Cheryl says, come to bed, it's usually Sadie's job, but now she realizes Sarah's pregnant, she's like, come to bed. Sarah can't do this for a couple reasons. One being that she has to finish work for Cheryl. And if she doesn't, then she has to do it when she gets. And her husband will be mad at her too. She's afraid she's going to snore so loudly as a pregnant woman that Cheryl will get the ick. And so she declines. And Cheryl really just cuts her off forever after that. Now here's my question for you guys. What the fuck is happening? Is she fudgeing them? Is this porn for her? Is this power? Is this just like, girls and girls with no boundaries? Like, what is this?

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, this is my theory. I thought a lot about. This is my theory. My theory is that Sheryl Sandberg is famous for being a girl boss with the boys, whatever. But she also understands the conversation around don't trust any women who don't have other women friends. Or like, don't trust women who are only with the boys because those women are bad. And so she is forcing her female employees to act like her girlfriends so that she can be like, oh, my God, Sadie and I got lingerie. You and Sadie actually didn't get lingerie. Sadie went and got you lingerie, and you paid her off by getting her lingerie and then you forced her to wear it, because that's what Cheryl thinks girls do. So I think Cheryl thinks she's girlfriends with these people if she does girlfriend related things. And so that's why it's such a big affront to her when Sarah's like, no, because it's literally Sarah being like, we're not friends. And that destroys Cheryl's entire understanding of who she is. Because if she's a woman who's only friends with men and is the only woman in the room, then she actually hasn't done the lean in thing, which is, like, make it better for women. She's just a woman who treats other women badly. So I think in her mind, this is her, like, I have girlfriends. We, like, lay on the bed together and we, like gab. I definitely don't think she's fucking anybody.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I love that theory. Becca, what do you think?

[Tracy Thomas]

So, wait. Yes. And I think her Saying, guys, I'm taking. I'm on my level two improv class. So I think Sarah saying no is all of a sudden, like, wait, is this weird? Fuck, was that weird?

[Becca Platzky]

Like, and, yeah, it's embarrassing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mark and Cheryl specifically are never told no. They don't see the people that they work with as autonomous people who may have their own feelings or desires to not sleep in a bed with them or not let them win at Catan. Like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg constantly wins at board games because everybody lets him win. And so I think.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Except for Sarah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Except for Sarah. Yeah. And. Well, yeah, that's a whole nother thing.

[Becca Platzky]

But Sarah's so good at board games. Like, bitch, bitch, you need to fucking be good at standing up for people and stop being good at Settlers of Catan.

[Chelsea Devontez]

My g. Yeah, she described as Settlers of Catan, like, her strategy and how Mark lost and how she won. That's like, the one thing she stands up for is like, I'm not going to pretend to lose at this game. And it made me. I was filled with so much regret that the one boyfriend who tried to force me to play this fucking game that I didn't pay attention more because I couldn't understand if Sarah really won or not. All right, Becca, please continue.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I. I mean, I think that's it. I think. I think you're absolutely right. Yeah. I don't think there was anything, like, untoward going. Going on. I do think it was a total power play because ultimately what Cheryl knows more than anything is soft power in politics. And I don't know. I think that also weird shit happens on private jets. Like, that's another thing that I've learned.

[Becca Platzky]

Like, it's an Adderall of private jets.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, those are. Those are the other, like, two, like, themes that are. That are running through. A lot of this stuff is, like, in private jets, like, the rules don't apply. Like, we're in international waters. Like, it's just.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I gotta tell you, I think Cheryl is definitely them. Yeah. Are you ready for my theories? I'm not gonna say, but I'm gonna say for playing. She's.

[Becca Platzky]

She's.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's. She's doing something. She's always stroking hair.

[Tracy Thomas]

We know that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay.

[Becca Platzky]

She's definitely stroking it. She's definitely laying in laps.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Definitely laps. Okay. And that's. And that's just what Sarah witnessed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So she's witnessing the lapling. You know how we have a strong, tried and true stereotype, because it's true of Republican men who are homosexual who are repressing their urges, who then spend all their time lobbying against homosexuals and trying to pull tail in bathrooms until they get caught. We know this. This is just everywhere. There is a new stereotype emerging, fully evil. But listen, I'm here for the equality of women who are homosexual, who have interest in other women but have to pretend that they are straight. And the way they get their their done is they become cult leaders. I'm specifically thinking of Ruby Frankie's cult leader, Jody Hildebrandt, who used religion and her cult to basically become romantic with Ruby Frankie. I'm thinking now of Sheryl Sandberg, where they're like, I do not know how to love these women. I want to love so badly. I know I will lead a movement. And until one of them lays in my lap, oopsie doopsie, we're just being girls. Finally. Finally. And that's my theory.

[Tracy Thomas]

And lean in what we heard yesterday, I mean, it was absolutely a cult.

[Becca Platzky]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're going around blog her conventions. What would you do if you weren't afraid? Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And she's like, probably fall in love with my best friend Sadie. But instead I'm going to hire Joel. Yeah, listen, I don't know.

[Becca Platzky]

Maybe she's either fudgeing, she's sucking, she's doing something, she's fudgeing up. That's what she's doing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's fucking them over. It's just. Is anyone getting off in the process besides Cheryl? I don't know. Okay, so talking about private jets, we have to talk about one time they're on this private jet and there is like crazy, crazy turbulence. And the way Sarah described it actually made me want to throw up while I was reading. And she said, they're doing drugs, they're drinking, and Mark is doing karaoke and his big go to's are Disney songs. And he's just singing Bon Jovi, I can show you the world. It's like, it is the scene in Wolf of Wall street where they're just like fucking loving it. And I said, oh, my God. Direct line to you dressing up as business Boone, you fucking loser. You karaoke like.

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And that honestly makes me love it because I came out of this book being like, I personally know how to control Mark Zuckerberg. I don't know why you guys had such a hard time getting the handle on him. But from this book, let me posit my theory to you. He asked for a mob to be.

[Tracy Thomas]

Created by gentle mob.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A gentle mob. He asked Sarah to create A gentle mob from him in a country that has an arrest warrant out for him. When it happens organically and gets very dangerous and violent, he loves it. He feels alive again. This is a direct line to him loving Trump. He loves karaoke. He loves to sing and perform, even though he's fucking bad at it. And he loves thinking people like him. And when Obama doesn't like him, like, it wrecks his entire life. And to. I literally wrote the note. I know what we do. We just show up and tomato him. I just. I truly believe throwing a tomato at Mark Kuckerberg would work because he works on humiliation and popularity. What do you guys think? Think.

[Becca Platzky]

And also. And also, he doesn't like vegetables. He only likes fast food.

[Chelsea Devontez]

He likes McDonald's.

[Becca Platzky]

Would be also revolting for him.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know, Marcus. Mark is insane in this book in a way that you do kind of let him off the hook because he has a. A rule that he doesn't have meetings before noon. And there's an entire chapter about how he won't meet with the president of China before noon. And, like, she can't get this. She can't pull off this meeting because he won't do it. It. And it's like, yeah, it's not China.

[Becca Platzky]

It's a different country.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What country?

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe Colombia, I can't remember.

[Becca Platzky]

But it's not China. It's like Colombia or Peru or something. It's not an important country to him, which is why they have the power struggle. I remember the Chinese president won't meet with him at all. Remember? And then they do the. They do the dressing room thing. And then he has, like, a whole army of people around him. When he leaves China, President will not. With Mark, it's somebody who's, like, sort of okay with it, but then, like, isn't. In the end, like, they have the back.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mark asks President Xi to name his unborn child, and she says no, no.

[Becca Platzky]

Which is the only correct answer if you are the fucking president of China. And this bitch boy comes up.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's very common, by the way, among famously, Andy Fastow of the Enron fraud, named his first male child after Jeff Skilling. Also both Harvard boys. So that's actually very common to, like, go to somebody that you really admire and say, like, I wanna name my unborn kid after you. It's fucking weird.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know what that's reminding me of? The fat Jew asking Wendy Williams to name his child.

[Tracy Thomas]

See, that I respect. But the crowd thing is so interesting. So there's this other Part where Sarah brings Mark to the Global Citizens Festival during a UN conference. And she says Mark will love this. Crowds, celebrities, young, idealistic attendees. He's talked about wanting to play a stadium, to which I say, as what? Like as what?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think he wants to do karaoke.

[Becca Platzky]

I mean, yes, he wants to do Benson Boon.

[Tracy Thomas]

The Benson Boone thing to him was like the most exciting thing in the world. Like, and if you. I hope that you're gonna link the Benson Boone video in the show notes because it's truly something to behold the fact that nobody told this guy he looks insane. Nobody told this guy how deeply embarrassing this is for him. And Mark Zuckerberg I think really has a lot of internal hatred. I think he's grossed out by himself. And I think that drives a. I mean, for so many of these. I think Joel, Elliot, Cheryl, I think they all hate themselves. I don't think they have any real friends really.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think Cheryl fucking loves herself. I don't think Cheryl hates themselves.

[Becca Platzky]

I think Joel is.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Is currently trying to suck his own dick. I think Mark has him so his some low self esteem. Imagine if Benson Boone had come out the next day and said, that was humiliating. I'm embarrassed. And don't ever touch my music again, you fucking cuck bitch. That, that would have done more to change this piece of shit than any sort of bill in Congress or bringing him in front of regulators.

[Tracy Thomas]

But he just gets more.

[Becca Platzky]

Well, that's how I feel about Trump. Trump too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Becca Platzky]

I mean, I feel like all these. Elon Musk too. I mean we, we know that. We know that popular opinion has a huge impact on these people.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, well, let's.

[Becca Platzky]

I mean, and all. I mean, I think if people called me an embarrassing cuff every day, I probably would also have like we doing it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Do you know what I'm saying? I'm like galvanized. Galvanize.

[Becca Platzky]

Well, that's what's so great about Tim Walls. He's the one who like, he's the one who started calling Elon Musk the president. Yeah, yeah, no, he started calling Elon Musk the president and it's like, that's great. Trump hates that.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I'm wondering too is like, is Zuckerberg actually jealous of Elon? And I noticed a lot of similarities. I noticed a couple of them. So Elon and Zuckerberg both want a tribe of kids. That's noticed in the book that Zuckerberg apparently wanted a tribe of kids. They both wanted to buy Twitter. Zuckerberg actually wanted to Buy New York Times at one point, which Bezos we knew bought. Bought the Washington Post. All these guys are at the inauguration and I wonder if Zuckerberg's like, I wanted to be Trump's favorite boy. Like, why I wanted to be Elon. Why don't I.

[Chelsea Devontez]

100%. He wrote this, he said, she said. Three months later, on September 1, Elon Musk's SpaceX rocket explodes on the launch pad, completely destroying the Internet.org satellite it's supposed to be putting into orbit. Mark posted, as I'm here in Africa, I'm deeply disappointed to hear that SpaceX's launch failure destroyed our satellite. Satellite that would have provided connectivity to so many entrepreneurs and everyone else across the continent. Fortunately, we have developed other technologies like Aquila, that will connect people as well. Aquila, of course, was the drone that crashed on its maiden flight. Yeah, I think he's a very jealous.

[Becca Platzky]

I think he's a particular wannabe too. Like, I think. I think, like, not to give credit to either Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or any of these people, I think that they have. Have some modicum of game plan for themselves of, like, who they want to be. And I think Mark is just like a copycat. Like, he just wants to do what.

[Tracy Thomas]

They do in a way that, like.

[Becca Platzky]

Makes him even more embarrassing because I'm like, like, Elon Musk is the peak of embarrassment to me. But, like, you want to be like Elon Musk. Like, that's like, so bad because you have all the money in the world. It's not like, it's not like a regular degular person being like, I want to be like Elon Musk so I can be rich. It's like, like, babe, you're the third richest person.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because what they really want is just like, this is the whole thing with the manosphere too, is it's like, I think what each of these people want is just genuine friendship with other men.

[Becca Platzky]

They want.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, like Peter Thiel. And it's. They're all the same, right? Like Trump, Musk, Bezos, Zuck and. Who else did I say? Teal? They are all the same person. They all say and want the same things. And I think that's Copycat is exactly right. But it's also like, so much simpler than that. It's just like, I want to do what my friends are doing because I want them to. Like, I want to have friends. And like, that's the saddest part of this whole thing. People are dying because these insecure men want friends.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I actually think Jeff Bezos is quite smart and actually created a business and had so much vision. Whereas I think Elon is literally the dumbest fuck ever and Mark is the copycat of the dumbest fuck ever. But Jeff Bezos stands out to me as someone who actually has an evil vision and is pursuing it.

[Becca Platzky]

I agree. I think Jeff Bezos is probably slightly more business savvy than the other two.

[Chelsea Devontez]

He saw the way to harness the Internet started with books, which he could give a fuck about. Like, that is someone with true vision. Me no like reading, but these idiots too let me distribute books, destroy the book business, and then use it to get to others. What was your question going to be, Tracy?

[Becca Platzky]

I just wanted to quickly ask about the money, Sarah's money as an employee of Facebook, because there's a lot of the reason that she doesn't leave Facebook has to do with, like, health insurance and, like, money and being poor and like. But she tells us early on that the money structure at Facebook is based on how long you've been an employee. So the assistant has like a Birkin bag or whatever and Louis Vuitton. Yeah, that's right. Because she makes a lot of money from being an early employee. But then Sarah's with the company for eight years or whatever. Seven years. And I'm like, well, so how much money were you making at the end that you were still so fucking poor? Because shouldn't she have been making more money by that point? She was acting like she was entry level 2011 Sarah. And she couldn't possibly leave because of the finances. But I just, it didn't make sense to me. And then her husband has a job also, and I think, is he a journalist? Like, what does, what does he do out of work?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Journalist. By the end of it, it's like he was a journalist. And then, then I think quickly, she's like, I am the breadwinner of this house. Which is also why I can no longer quit Facebook. But Tracy, I agree with you. I think she fully starts lying to herself and all of us. And then to us, where she's like, in the beginning, the assistant says to her, sweetie, you'll never be able to afford these shoes. The assistant says to Sarah, a higher level position, you will never be able to afford Louis Vuittons. And then, yeah, Sarah carries that through the end. Is the reason why she can't leave Facebook, even though she had to have been making.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. And I think it's all relative. Like, she's living in Palo Alto. She's living in one of the most highest cost of living places amongst people who are billionaires. So for her, for us, we'd say you're making a million dollars a year. Like, just. Just get out of there. You got enough money to live on. But I think it's. I think she's just so brainwashed. Like, ice cream scoops have been taken out of her brain in terms of, like, how much money a human being actually needs to live on that she feels like in order to keep up this lifestyle, she has to stay at Facebook.

[Becca Platzky]

Right?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. And can we also talk about Sarah's husband Tom, which, if there is a God, It's Tom from MySpace and how.

[Becca Platzky]

Wait, he's not Tom from MySpace.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Of course he's not Tracy. But wouldn't that be hilarious?

[Tracy Thomas]

That would be actually insane.

[Becca Platzky]

And I was like, how did I miss that?

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't tell you his last name.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, I didn't tell you it was the MySpace guy. No, I just think. I just think it's so funny. It's a book about Facebook and her husband is named Tom. So let's talk a little bit about Sarah as we're wrapping up this marathon of an episode. So Sarah as a storyteller was tough for me, specifically because she falls into a trap that a lot of memoir tellers fall into. Whereas that stuff, everyone, every single person in the book is bad except for them, including her husband Tom, who I wrote like, this man is a maniacal monster. Several points in the book. Only for her to be like, no, no, it was my fault. And, like, Tom's a great guy. Like, she's talking about, like, how he, like, almost runs her over with a car when she's, like, has a wasp nest in her knee. And also her parents are monsters. She doesn't seem to have any real good friends in the book. Look, what did you guys think of. Of Tom?

[Becca Platzky]

I didn't think Tom was a bad guy, but I don't remember that scene where he runs her over.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, the B thing?

[Tracy Thomas]

Really? All of a sudden, she's being attacked by bees. It was.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That one was really weird. It's like she's about to leave Facebook. She's basically edging us for nine chapters. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit. And then what happens is that Joel does a series of shitty things to her, like making her work during maternity leave. He takes their one on one zoom calls laying down in the bed. He calls her sultry. He grinds against her and Then he makes her look up dirty sandwiches, asks.

[Tracy Thomas]

Her where she's bleeding from after childbirth.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So he is sexually harassing her. And she, of course, reports it. And everyone's like, lol you, Sarah. And in the end, she gets fired, which was the most devastating part of the book to me, because she's like, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. She never leaves leaves. She gets fired for reporting sexual harassment against Joel, who is protected as Cheryl's number one boyfriend. And then she goes to see her husband. A wasp nest attacks her knees, and her husband almost runs her over. You don't remember that, Tracy?

[Becca Platzky]

I remember her getting. I literally remember every single thing up until she goes home.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know.

[Becca Platzky]

I guess it just wouldn't. I must have been, like, making dinner.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I think it's the way she writes it where, like, he's really just driving through to open the gate so that he can get her in the car. But the way she's writing it is like. And now my husband's running me over, and I don't blame him for what I've spoken about.

[Tracy Thomas]

She's having one of those moments, I think she's trying to express, where, like, your life flashes before your eyes and you're like, oh, if my husband leaves me, that'll be fine. I didn't really think too much of Tom. He was just kind of, like, there to either reinforce or give her, like, some sounding board of voice of reason. But Chelsea, to your point. Yeah. Where were her best friends? Like.

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah, she doesn't have friends.

[Tracy Thomas]

I guess she didn't.

[Becca Platzky]

She works at Facebook. Nobody has friends at Facebook because they all work with each other, and that's the culture. And she can't work.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, like, Debbie was nice to her a couple times. Marnie, who I am still gonna call Marn, like, they become kind of friendly, but, like, I never trust anyone.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Where every single person around them is the worst. It's like, there's gotta be one person helping out here or somewhat. Okay. And if there's not, then that reflects on you. I think that's being fully surrounded by assholes 24 7.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's really. The truth is likely. Maybe in 10 years, when Sarah Wynne Williams reflects on this, she's gonna say, I actually had a lot more to do with this than I put in the book. But I'm not in a mental state to accept that right now, which is understandable.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. You know what? That's giving Keith Ranieri on the second season of the HBO documentary about the Nexium cult, where the woman who helped him and made the whole thing happen truly cannot understand that it is her fault as well. And she's like, no, no, no, not me, though. He's the bad guy. It was his idea. And the therapist is like, no. You enabled people to follow him, and she can't accept it. And I think you're right, Becca. I don't think Sarah's in a place where she can accept her faults. However, I still love that she was the first to spill blood, and I'll stand behind her for that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love her for that. And I hope that this is healing for her. And like I said in the beginning, I hope this opens the floodgates, because, yeah, I mean, this. This book is going absolute gangbusters, as it should, and continues to add onto the conversation that we've been having this year about how not only evil these billionaires are, but dumb and should be bullied and made fun of at every turn.

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, let's wrap this up. We get to the epilogue. She's like, I've been fired. The next time she sees Joel, he's behind Brett Kavanaugh as he goes through his Senate confirmation. Makes fucking sense. And then what Facebook does is they decide to dig dirt up on people who criticize the company, and they smear them in anti Semitic conspiracy theories. So anyone who doesn't like Facebook, they try and say that they are being anti semitic, antisemitic, and, you know, Cambridge Analytica happens. We know that Cheryl leaves the company after kind of somewhat falling on the sword with what happened with Cambridge Analytica. And then Sarah's like, as for me, I've had another child, and now I work in AI, and you all should be scared out of your gourds for what's happening in an AI. But don't worry. I'm here trying to fix it, just like I was with Facebook.

[Becca Platzky]

Sarah learns nothing. Sarah learns nothing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Let's do the booktool test. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Becca Platzky]

I say no.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, Tracy, I'm gonna be with you. No.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I.

[Chelsea Devontez]

There's. From the shark story alone, it's impossible. No. And that opens the book.

[Becca Platzky]

We all agree.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Look at us. Second question.

[Becca Platzky]

We're falling apart.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I know, Trace, you'll have to come back and fight me another time. Second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Becca Platzky]

For me, most. Mostly, yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Becca Platzky]

It's too Long.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I get it. I'm a full yes. It was just riveting. Final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Becca Platzky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

How?

[Becca Platzky]

I feel like I was glad to know this information, glad that it exists. I mean, it was also just fun for me on social media because, like, when they announced it the week before, I was like texting all my friends at the New York Times, being like, do you know about this? What do you know? Like, so it's like a fun. It was a fun for a book person. It elevated my life. There's not a lot of fun in the book world.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. Yeah, I love it. I love it, Becca.

[Tracy Thomas]

It didn't necessarily elevate my life. Cause I'm in this stuff all the time, but it reinvigorated my excitement for people to talk about this stuff again, to talk about the pernicious social media landscape that we're living in. And yeah, I want to talk more about it. And hopefully this will open the conversation. So, yes, I love that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm also a yes, you guys. First off, motherfucking Dringo, because on page 304, Mark gets advice from Henry Kissinger. Henry Kissinger is back again, motherfuckers. You all thought we were done with Henry Kissinger because he's dead. No, he's still popping up in memoirs, including this one. And the way it elevated my life. Life was making things simple again, talking about democratic messaging. Mark Kuckerberg got advice from Henry Kissinger. The end. It explains everything. I just love this book. Simplifying and giving a first person account of the things that you think were evil were evil, and they were done by a lot of dumb, unethical, money hungry people. And we can remove some of the nuance we may have given to them. You know, the Cambridge Analytica hearings were complicated and ongoing. And what was the Cambridge app and what was Facebook? And I think just walking away being like, this app was weaponized to cause as much harm at our expense as possible as long as they. It paid them money. And Facebook absolutely messed up our lives. It targeted young teenage girls who were feeling depressed to send them ads about weight and beauty. And every time studies came out saying, no, that didn't happen. Yes, it did. Every time something up on Facebook happened, you could think there might just be one dude in Ireland who was behind all of this. Like, complicating it and making it this bigger thing is just, just. No, it was just Henry Kissinger giving Mark Zuckerberg advice and him taking it. And really that just like Kind of wrapped it all up in a bow for me. I do think I have so many more thoughts, but it is time to wrap up this podcast. So I think for anyone on Patreon and anyone who is subscribed on Apple podcasts, I'm gonna put out a bonus episode, another solo one, and cover some things in this book that we didn't get time to discuss this. I'm really walking away from our conversation. Tracy and Becca really thinking about how Sarah painted them as dumbasses who did not know they were handing Trump the election. However, when you look at, you know, the Cambridge Analytica case and other things, it's like, no, they were specifically weaponizing Facebook as a weapon, basically. Were they weaponizing it on purpose for Trump or were they just being unethical dumbasses following the money, unsure what political outcomes it would have? That's kind of, that's a question I have that I would love to book club about on the Patreon comments. So get in there. That's how it elevated my life. Seems like it should make me sad, but it actually gave me energy. I it's a very. I feel energized from this. Tracy, please tell everyone where we can find you, follow you, listen to all your thoughts. When you're not on this podcast, you.

[Becca Platzky]

Can find me at the Sax podcast, go to Instagram. But what I want to tell you guys about is I have an event that is called Stack the Shelves. We are helping people who lost their homes in the LA fires to rebuild their libraries. We're going to have a lot of awesome authors coming signing books. Chelsea will be there. We're going to have like a whole thing that they can shop and get books. We're going to have Craft Corner, all this stuff. And what I need from you all is I need your donations. You can go to the stackspodcast.com shelves. We're going to be giving away gift cards to a local LA black woman owned bookstore so that if they don't get the books they want at the event, they can go online, they can purchase the books, they can have them sent to them wherever they are. So if you can help do that, you would be my best friend and I will disagree with you just like I disagree with my best friend Chelsea. So that is thesaxpodcast.com shelves. The event is May 4, so donate now.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, Tracy, thank you so much for doing that. And the fires have left the headlines, but they have not left our lives and what they did in la. So I'm just So thrilled to be your friend and thank you for disagreeing with me for almost two hours. Okay, Becca, please tell everyone where they can find you and follow you. And if you are at all interested in how this world is working, Becca's podcast is the light, the truth, and the way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thanks, Chelsea. You can find me at corporate gossip pod on all socials. We are the business podcast for pop culture lovers. We try to make business news a little bit more accessible, a little bit more understandable. So you too can hate Mark Zuckerberg, but you have the facts to back it up? Actually, Chelsea, this episode inspired us to do a deep dive on the business side of Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg. They're each gonna get their own individual episodes coming out in a couple weeks. Because I'm already so deep in the shit, why not just stay here and swim around?

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know, I cannot wait for those episodes. I loved the recent one about the scam artist who took all of the Daddy Bankers money. I also want to say that Charlie Javiz, thanks to Becca's podcast, I now know how to fly better because of how you talked about Boeing and everything going on. So I really feel like the podcast, like, improves your life in ways you don't even know we're coming.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, now you're like, oh, an airbus. Great.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Thank you both for being here and jumping into the shark waters with me. And now let us lean out and get out of girl boss hell and go have a drink. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, TRASH. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.