Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 2 Analysis (with Jo Piazza)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast Episode Summary: "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 2 Analysis (with Jo Piazza)" Release Date: June 5, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantes
Guest: Joe Piazza

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Introduction

In this episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantes delves deep into Season 2 of "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives." Responding to listener feedback, Chelsea presents a comprehensive analysis of the show, exploring its portrayal of Mormon tradwife culture, reality TV dynamics, and the intersection of feminism and capitalism. The episode is divided into two main segments: a discussion with guest Joe Piazza, an expert in tradwife culture and pop culture, followed by Chelsea’s solo analysis of the show's cast.

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Part 1: Discussion with Joe Piazza

Guest Introduction

Chelsea welcomes Joe Piazza, a bestselling author and award-winning journalist known for her expertise in tradwife culture. Joe introduces herself, highlighting her background as a former gossip magazine editor and her recent return to reality TV commentary.

Why "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" Resonates

• Relatability and Cultural Influence:
  Joe explains, “I think that Mormon Wives is the glamorous trash that we all want and deserve right now” (02:49). Chelsea adds that her eight formative years in Utah and familiarity with LDS culture make the show personally significant for her.

• Dark Thematic Elements:
  The show’s dark themes resonate with both hosts. Joe emphasizes, “It's very dark, very Dark” (04:05), aligning with Chelsea’s preference for gritty reality TV content.

Relatability Beyond Mormonism

Chelsea poses a theory that the show's appeal transcends its specific cultural focus, suggesting that the participants' relatable age and everyday problems make the series universally engaging. Joe concurs, noting that unlike the opulent lifestyles depicted in shows like Real Housewives or the Kardashian empire, Mormon Wives portrays more average financial and relational struggles, enhancing its relatability (05:44).

Social Media and Influencer Culture

Joe discusses the influence of social media on the show's popularity, stating, “Social media is now media... Particularly women, particularly mom influencers” (06:53). Chelsea expands on this, highlighting the rise of mom influencers and how they’ve intertwined with tradwife culture, leading to a complex relationship with modern feminism.

Capitalism vs. Feminism

The conversation shifts to the tension between capitalism and feminism within tradwife culture. Both hosts critique how the pursuit of wealth and social media influence can undermine feminist ideals, describing the cycle as “the snake eating its tail” (08:08).

Ballerina Farm and Religious Identity

Chelsea asks Joe why Ballerina Farm emphasizes Christianity over Mormonism. Joe attributes it to broader American perceptions of Mormonism, noting, “Most Americans think that Mormonism is strange and weird” (13:57). This strategic shift allows Ballerina Farm to reach a wider audience while maintaining subtle religious undertones.

Plastic Surgery and Media Representation

Joe critiques the portrayal of beauty standards in the show, linking it to social media aesthetics. She remarks, “It is absolutely social media face... It is something that does look good in selfies and often on reels” (20:41). Chelsea and Joe discuss the implications of pervasive plastic surgery, especially on young women influenced by these unrealistic standards.

Joe Piazza’s Contributions and Upcoming Work

Joe promotes her novel Everyone is Lying to You, a tradwife murder mystery set to release on July 15. She emphasizes the need to expose the facades presented on social media and reality TV (30:05).

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Piazza: “I think that Mormon Wives is the glamorous trash that we all want and deserve right now.” (02:49)
• Chelsea Devantes: “Mom influencers is such a good call.” (07:27)
• Joe Piazza: “They are preying on every woman's pain point and shame to sell us ridiculous shit.” (08:08)

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Part 2: Solo Analysis by Chelsea Devantes

Thesis on Female Friendship and Aging

Chelsea outlines her thesis on the differing dynamics of female friendships among Mormon wives compared to Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. She posits that the former group, predominantly in their 20s, exhibit intense, sometimes volatile friendships driven by fear of losing connections, whereas the latter, in their 30s and beyond, display more resilient and mature relationships (31:01).

Wife-by-Wife Breakdown

1. Layla

   • Character Setup and Producer Influence:
     Layla is portrayed as eager to please but seemingly manipulated by producers to advance plotlines, such as playing "pregnancy roulette" (04:14).
   • Emotional Vulnerability:
     Chelsea highlights Layla’s genuine emotional reactions, particularly her intense response to a burlesque show, indicating deeper personal conflicts.

2. Demi

   • Fan Favorite Dynamics:
     Demi emerges as a fan favorite due to her wild drama and humorous antics, though Chelsea criticizes her recent villainous behavior lacking depth and motivation (09:46).
   • Contradictions in Empowerment:
     Chelsea points out Demi’s contradictory stance on female empowerment, noting moments where Demi’s actions undermine true feminist values (09:58).

3. Jesse

   • Emotional Suppression:
     Jesse is depicted as a sidelined character struggling to express her emotions and confronting her marriage issues indirectly (12:56).
   • Religious Conflicts:
     Her doubts about Mormonism and the sealing doctrine reveal internal conflicts about faith and personal happiness.

4. Mikayla

   • Social Media Influence:
     Mikayla is recognized for her significant social media following, yet her on-camera presence falls short of her TikTok persona (17:58).
   • Therapeutic Struggles:
     Chelsea expresses concern over Mikayla’s on-camera therapy sessions, suggesting a misrepresentation of genuine emotional healing.

5. Miranda

   • Enigmatic Presence:
     Miranda maintains a likable yet non-dramatic presence, making her a neutral yet essential part of the group dynamics (28:34).
   • Potential for Growth:
     Chelsea hopes for more depth in Miranda’s character in future seasons to enhance her role within the show.

6. Jen

   • Emotional Abuse and Resilience:
     Jen’s storyline reveals her as a victim of an emotionally abusive relationship, struggling to balance her personal aspirations with her marital dynamics (20:12).
   • Racial Undertones:
     Chelsea touches on the racial dynamics influencing Jen’s marriage to Zach, adding layers to her character’s struggles.

7. Whitney

   • Villain Appeal:
     Whitney serves as a compelling antagonist with a complex backstory, making her a key figure for future conflict and drama in the show (22:40).
   • Potential Return:
     Chelsea advocates for Whitney’s return in Season 3 to maintain the show’s dramatic tension.

8. Taylor

   • Emotional Outbursts and Growth:
     Taylor is portrayed as emotionally volatile yet resilient, navigating her relationship struggles with Dakota while searching for personal fulfillment (29:37).
   • Narrative Clarity:
     Chelsea criticizes the naming of Taylor and Dakota’s son “Ever True,” highlighting the irony of their deceptive relationship (28:14).

Key Themes and Takeaways

• Intersection of Tradition and Modernity:
  The show highlights the tension between traditional Mormon values and the modern aspirations of the wives, reflecting broader societal conflicts.

• Impact of Social Media:
  The portrayal of beauty standards and influencer culture underscores the pervasive influence of social media on personal identity and relationships.

• Relational Dynamics:
  The intense and often toxic relationships among the wives illustrate the complexities of female friendships and marital bonds within a restrictive cultural framework.

Notable Quotes:

• Chelsea Devantes: “It's just swimming in the garbage.” (04:08)
• Joe Piazza: “They are running around in their goddamn fields barefoot, in a white linen dress...” (12:22)
• Chelsea Devantes: “I have to constantly remind myself Michaela is 24 because it feels like I'm watching a 35-year-old.” (20:06)
• Joe Piazza: “Every time I publicly talk about plastic surgery, people attack me on social media...” (25:59)

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Conclusion

Chelsea wraps up the episode by reflecting on her analysis of "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" Season 2, inviting listeners to continue the conversation on Patreon. She underscores the importance of examining "trashy" reality TV through a critical lens to uncover deeper societal and cultural insights. The episode concludes with acknowledgments to the production team and promotional messages for Libro FM audiobooks.

Final Thoughts:

• Cultural Critique Through Entertainment:
  The episode emphasizes how reality TV serves as a mirror to societal issues, particularly regarding gender roles, religion, and media influence.

• Listener Engagement:
  Chelsea encourages audience participation and feedback, fostering a community-driven discussion around the show’s themes.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes

• Joe Piazza: “I think that Mormon Wives is the glamorous trash that we all want and deserve right now.” (02:49)
• Chelsea Devantes: “Mom influencers is such a good call.” (07:27)
• Joe Piazza: “They are preying on every woman's pain point and shame to sell us ridiculous shit.” (08:08)
• Chelsea Devantes: “I have to constantly remind myself Michaela is 24 because it feels like I'm watching a 35-year-old.” (20:06)
• Joe Piazza: “Every time I publicly talk about plastic surgery, people attack me on social media...” (25:59)

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Connect with the Hosts and Guest

• Joe Piazza’s Book: Everyone is Lying to You – A tradwife murder mystery exploring the facade of social media personas. Available July 15.
• Follow Chelsea Devantes: Engage with her content and join discussions on Patreon.
• Support Independent Bookstores: Visit Libro FM and use code TRASH2 for special offers.

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Production Team

• Producer: Christina Lopez
• Executive Producer: Jordan Moncada
• Sound Engineer: Marcus Hamm
• Associate Producer: Jaron Padre

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Join the Conversation

Share your thoughts on Patreon or the podcast’s comment sections. Whether you’re a current or former Mormon, or simply intrigued by the dynamics of tradwife culture, your insights enrich the discussion.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence of the podcast episode for those who have not listened.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devantes]

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[Joe Piazza]

We're back, baby. For 104 more days.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I know what we're gonna do today. A summer vacation. I am ready for summer shenanigans. Let's do it.

[Joe Piazza]

Oh yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

We're gonna bust Phineas and Ferb once and for all. Are we gonna do this again? New inventions, shenanigans, inators, adventures and songs.

[Joe Piazza]

Brand new summer vacations.

[Chelsea Devantes]

New Phineas and Ferb starts June 5th on Disney Channel and next day on Disney on disneyplus.disney.com hey, welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book club's viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devantes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this is a trashy discourse episode. We are rounding up, rounding off, rounding out our Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 2 content. And I am here because I received so many messages and DMs and podcast reviews asking for more. And so thank you for letting me know. Otherwise I wouldn't have done this final episode. We did two episodes this season discussing specifics and now this is your big wrap up. In the first part of this episode, I have an amazing guest who is an expert in tradwife culture and pop culture to kind of discuss the big picture of this. And then in the second, second half of the episode, I'm really gonna dive in, specifically into Mormon wives and I'm gonna go wife by wife and tell you my thoughts on the season as a whole. So thank you for writing in. Thank you for all your comments and let's dive in. My guest today is Joe Piazza, a bestselling author, podcast creator and award winning journalist. You all know Jo. She is the national and international bestselling author of the Trad Wife murder mystery, Everyone is Lying to you and the Sicilian Inheritance. She is also the creator and host of the podcast under the Influence. Hi. Thank you so much for being Here.

[Joe Piazza]

Hi. Thank you for having me to talk about my favorite subject of all time.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Me too. Tell me, why is Mormon Wives hitting for you? I mean, I think it's hitting for the world, and I want us to discuss why. But why does it hit for you? Personally, I think you're right.

[Joe Piazza]

I think that Mormon Wives is the glamorous trash that we all want and deserve right now.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, that's right.

[Joe Piazza]

It really is. But it's hitting for me in a really interesting way. I have to tell you, I've been on a reality show hiatus for a little while.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Like, on purpose or you just weren't into it? No.

[Joe Piazza]

God, no. It's not like I'm on a cleanse or anything. It's just because I barely have time to watch tv. Like, I've got three kids under seven, and so I'm not watching any tv. But I used to be a gossip rag editor for.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Wait, wait, can you say which rag?

[Joe Piazza]

Of course I can. Yeah. No, I was the news director at In Touch and Life and Style.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ah, my queen. I've read so many of your words.

[Joe Piazza]

Oh, thank you. Thank you, RIP they are no longer with us. But I mean, so reality show was like, not just my guilty pleasure, but it was my fucking job for so long. So this is my re entry into the world. And it has been such a nice re entry because it just. It delivers on everything that you want a reality show to be. Like, you have a perfect villain, you have douchebag guys you can hate so much. And also with every single character, I don't really like anyone. I like fucking love to hate every single person on this show. And that's where I want to be when I'm watching reality tv.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. Yeah. You want to be swimming in the garbage.

[Joe Piazza]

I want to be just like doggy paddling in the garbage. So, like swimming, but not swimming.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, Like, I want to be on, like a floaty. Just like going down. Going down nasty river. And this show is so. I'll tell you why the show hits for me. One, I grew up in Utah for eight years of my life. Eight formative childhood years. And I went to LDS church every Sunday with my best friends and her eight siblings.

[Joe Piazza]

I love this. And I have to have you on my show to talk about all this too. Yes, done.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I will be there. And so it's just Mormon culture, like, really has a big place in my life Anyways, so. So that it hits for me on that reason. It's also a very dark show.

[Joe Piazza]

It's very dark, very Dark.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I like seeing dark shit on TV because I live dark shit in life. So that's not something that I. It makes me like it more, not less.

[Joe Piazza]

No, no, no. So much more. So much more. That's what I'm here for.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. But here's my question for you. Do you think it really, really is hitting for people because of the Mormon component and like these trad wives breaking free or. This is my new theory. This show is actually more relatable as a female ensemble, Mormonism aside, because they are still in income brackets that are more relatable. They are in their 20s, but they have some regular degular things that are always problems in their life. Like my husband's being weird and a relatable. Not relatable, but it's not like he's weird because he bought a yacht. He's weird because he's being a dick. Or like, I'm a mom and like my kids have to be in this shot with me or like we're having a sad barbecue. And so I'm sort of like, is this actually the most relatable reality show? Even if it's about a culture that we don't relate to or the cops.

[Joe Piazza]

Just got called to my party and it's a new house and I'm worried that the neighbors are going to throw me out of the neighborhood. Right.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, exactly. Like, we can't. They can't buy their way out of problems yet.

[Joe Piazza]

They will be able to, but they can't yet.

[Chelsea Devantes]

No, but not this season. And they'll never be able to buy their way out of the community's judgment.

[Joe Piazza]

Out of their sad oppression. No, they won't. No. Not even a little bit.

[Chelsea Devantes]

They'll have to do harder work for that.

[Joe Piazza]

I think you're right on both counts. I mean, we'll get into the tradwives of it all in a second. But I do think that they, on a reality television level, they are something we have not seen a whole lot of, which is, you know, people that are a little bit more like the average person. Mormonism aside. Okay. Because this is also so Mormon light at this point. I mean, they're Mormon. Like, I'm Catholic, okay. And I just love talking about my abortion, so. But they do have, like, normal people. Money problems, normal people image problems. And the Real Housewives are so beyond that at this point. The Kardashians are gazillionaires. They're so beyond that. But, like, that is a whole other genre of like, we're just watching rich people be Rich.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Right.

[Joe Piazza]

And, like, have rich people problems. So, yes, I do think this is a lot more relatable. But I do think that, like, a lot of the sexiness comes because Americans are now addicted not just to tradwife influencers, but to influencing content generally. Social media is now media. I think more people are staring at these fucking screens in the palms of our hands than are watching most TV shows, like most prestige TV shows. And so we are addicted to this way of looking at people's lives, particularly women, particularly mom influencers.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, mom influencers is such a good call. And it's always been the biggest part of the influencing industry. And it has this amazing feminist side to it in that, like, moms were given entrepreneurship and took it to a level that outdid any other type of creator. When moms are usually people have been really shitty to that demographic. And this is a demographic that just, like, took over this industry. And then it gets in the hands of these Mormon wives and these trad wives and then the feminism, like, twists. The feminism starts like sucking its own dick to the point where, like, it's.

[Joe Piazza]

No longer feminism, it's the snake eating its tail.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Right? Yeah. I don't know why I went to sucking dick and not a snake eating.

[Joe Piazza]

Its tail, but the uroboro. Ouroboro.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ouroboros.

[Joe Piazza]

Yeah, ouroboros.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Ouroboronum.

[Joe Piazza]

It's a snake sucking its own dick is what it is.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Joe Piazza]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Joe Piazza]

Exactly. No, it is. Well, because, all right, mom influencing has. I mean, I've been covering it on my podcast for five years since I had my second baby. And all I could do was like, scroll Instagram while she was, like, sucking on my boob. And what I realized is everyone is trying to sell you something. And it is also a multi billion dollar business run by women for women, where women are like, really making some serious bank. And that's awesome. That's a great thing. They are also preying on every woman's pain point and shame to sell us ridiculous shit. Particularly the Mormon mom influencers and now the Mormon trad wives, you know, who are preaching this idea of like, so submission to your husband, give up your agency, get out of the workforce, don't get educated, get off birth control, make as many babies as possible. And I would say the mom talk girls from the Secret Lives of Mormon wives are like, again, like, they're Mormon, like their trad wife light. And so they're in these relationships or they were in these relationships that were very patriarchal, very dominant. They're trying to break out of the mold. And that is real fun to watch.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, it's kind of breaking or massaging my brain in the way of, like, what you said. And you're. You're an expert in this. Like, you've written a book on it. Like, your. You. Your podcast talks about it. Of, like, trad wives and the idea of becoming a trad wife has never been more popular, but the most popular show is watching women say fuck you to that lifestyle.

[Joe Piazza]

Yeah, it is.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I'm like, these two are existing at the same time for the same audience. Do you know what I mean? And they're over here being like, I don't want that anymore. And, like, now that I can, like, post a sexy photo and feel that attention, I don't care about God anymore. This love is. Is more fulfilling than God's love. It turns out, like.

[Joe Piazza]

Turns out I like an orgasm.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah. So it's okay. So what were your big takeaways? Looking at the trad wife themes in this season, did any still hold up for you? Did you walk away being like, oh, they're still pushing Blankety Blank?

[Joe Piazza]

I don't think the women are pushing anything. I think the men are much like men in the world generally. They're flailing, are desperate to hold on to their power, and they don't know what to do. They're flailing. They're like, why is no one listening to me? Why is no one submitting to me? I am the boss of my family. I am the God of my kingdom, and yet I'm the biggest loser on this show. I'm not making any money. My wife makes so much more money than me. And that's the most awesome part about this. My biggest issue with trad wives on Instagram and TikTok has always been that they're running around in their goddamn fields barefoot, in a white linen dress and, like, making sourdough with their 19 children and just saying, I am just a housewife. I am just, you know, making the house nice for my husband because he is the boss. He is the leader of this family. And men are special godlike beings, when, in fact, they are the breadwinners in their family most of the time because they're making so much money off their social media. And that is the whole reason I named my novel Everyone is lying to you because they're all just lying to you. Like, behind the facade is actually a woman who is a badass CEO of a media company pretending to be a submissive basic bee just to make money off of you.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And they're one of the things that's hardest to become, which is a first time female director. They are writing, they are directing. They are. Yeah. And it's incredible. You're absolutely right about that. And it's interesting. Watching the first season, I said, oh, my gosh, these women are breaking this religion. Which from my vantage, is like, wild and fun to see this season. I have felt the capitalism and the entrepreneurship and the money of it take over any feminism that was accidentally or purposely.

[Joe Piazza]

Oh, yeah, okay. No, they want to make money. These women want to make money. They want to be successful at pretty much the expense of anything and everything.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Else of Jesse specifically. I don't know if you saw this, but, like, specifically, Demi will be like, sorry to spoil. But she's like, jesse, kick her off the show and give me her money. Demi tells that to the producers and then tells it to enough of the other wives that they're like, didn't you want to kick your best friend off so you could make more money? And Demi was like, yeah, we're feminists now, right? And I said, oh, so somebody get a feminist to Utah to teach them how this really works.

[Joe Piazza]

Maybe we should go to Utah after that. Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Do you want to go? And we'll go through the drive through and live on soda every day.

[Joe Piazza]

I would 100% go to Utah with you because we could give them feminism 101.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I would love to do a basic bitch feminism course.

[Joe Piazza]

A basic bitch feminism seminar, and I think they'd really love it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You're so right. Can I tell? Look what I'm drinking. I am drinking. They have fucked up my life so much. I'm drinking cream soda, diet Dr. Pepper with sugar free vanilla syrup and almond milk.

[Joe Piazza]

Holy shit. Wow.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I've been drink. I've been drinking concoctions like this every. They're ruining my health.

[Joe Piazza]

You have been so pink pilled. This is amazing.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I've been really pink pilled.

[Joe Piazza]

You've been really pink pilled.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, I have another question for you. A little bit in the more global tradwife sphere, which is, why do you think Ballerina Farm hides their Mormonism but pushes their Christianity? Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Why do you think ballerina farm hides their Mormonism but pushes their Christianity because of capitalism?

[Joe Piazza]

Because they know that most Americans think Mormons are Weird. I mean, statistically, like that is true in surveys. Most Americans think that Mormonism is strange and weird and they want to make money. They are a before all else, both of them are very hungry entrepreneurs. And I think it was a very concerted effort from the very beginning to be like, no, no, no, we've got a wider reach. We can do some light Jesus, but like do not talk about the Latter Day Saints.

[Chelsea Devantes]

It's so fascinating because when you one on the flip side, that is what made Mormon Wives catch. You know, we are Mormon Saints. The Mormonism, it was kind of the hook of it, right?

[Joe Piazza]

But we're in that for the voyeuristic trash and Ballerina Farm wants to sell.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You shit and wants you to believe Ballerina Farm.

[Joe Piazza]

They want you to believe in her. Like she like really needed to create a parasocial relationship with her millions of followers to get her brand where it is. And I'm convinced that they are going to explode into a full on Magnolia style media property very, very soon. You know, with the like in person dairy and some bakeries and a TV show and a magazine and all that stuff. And she wasn't going to get there by doing the Mormon thing.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But do you think she could survive a reality show in that it would be showing all of the labor she hides. So it would reveal the nannies, it would reveal the people who help her create this trad life lifestyle. Like do you think they could pull a TV show off?

[Joe Piazza]

Well, they can't pull a reality show off, but they could pull a chip And Joanna Gaines style curated a curated, well produced where you don't see see the grossness of building a house or you don't see the grossness of raising that many children. Which just seems disgusting to me as someone with three small children. Okay, but three seems like a regular number.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Three feels like a lot. I'm one of three. That was a lot for my mom.

[Joe Piazza]

Three's a lot. No, like they would. She would never do a like guts and all mascara running down her face reality style show, but she would do a beautifully produced Magnolia style show.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I think that is a fascinating call. I think you're absolutely right. Okay, here's one more Ballerina Farm question. I'm gonna come back to Mormon Wives, which is a lot of people have talked about, like, why are the most compelling influencers coming out of Utah? The big one being that. And the one I relate to the most is that like girls are Utah is a perfectionist culture where it's like be perfect, be perfect. So you are performing perfectionism from the day you were born and activities and working hard and getting good grades and following the rules. All those things are seen as like really positive in the Chur church. And then the third thing is spread the word. Spread the word, Spread the word. You know, mission trips, which are, you know, predominantly for the men. But that social influencing is a great way to spread the word of the LDS church. So that's where Ballerina Farm gets me. One, my question is for you is do you agree with that? Do you agree with that's why Utah influencers are so successful. And two, that Ballerina Farm wouldn't be spreading the word is. What do you think of that?

[Joe Piazza]

A hundred percent, Yes. I did so much research into this. When I first launched under the Influence, we had a whole episode about why Mormon women were the first mommy bloggers. They were the majority of the first mommy bloggers too. And then they were really the first to adopt Instagram as a platform. And it is because of that intense perfectionism. It is also because of a couple other factors, one of which is that the church actually encouraged women to do first journaling and then blogging. They talked about this new kind of media. They're like, this is actually a way for you to be spreading the word about your domestic labors and the things you do in the home. So they have always been early adopters of this media. It has always been a way of soft proselytizing. And then to be honest, they're what the algorithm wants. Instagram was created to essentially be a photo sharing kind of vogue. They did not want ugly pictures on this. I mean, think about these like tech bro founders. They wanted just like pretty chicks on this, taking pretty filtered chicks and like.

[Chelsea Devantes]

The widest of white, blonde, the widest of white.

[Joe Piazza]

And these women, women, you know, allegedly, or at least until the characters on our favorite show, have never smoked a cigarette. They didn't smoke a pack of Parliament Lights a day like I did throughout my 20s. They weren't doing shots off the bar or off people's boobs. Like they just look good. They don't look road hard and put away wet like a lot of other women with 19 children. So they just really performed well for the algorithm over and over again. Plus the algorithm loves pregnancy and babies and they're willing to provide a lot of those.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That is. Yeah, well, that is so well said and it's so funny to me too of how this culture has been ahead of the curve in so many ways. Like Mormons own ancestry and the Mormon church owns another genealogical site because they like documenting but then they're at the forefront of like DNA science and also fucking it up with their, with their point of view. And the other thing I think about is like the amount of scrapbook parties I attended weekly throughout my life. It's like, oh yes, yeah, yes. Instagram is digital scrapbook.

[Joe Piazza]

Do you think you would have been a trad wife if you'd stayed?

[Chelsea Devantes]

I would have had to convert. And they were always, you know, it was, it was my best friend's family very lovingly took me on as like little sad, little sad devil child who they were going to help, you know. And I say that with love. Like, you know, I think they really felt that way about me and I.

[Joe Piazza]

Have a lot of Mormon friends, so I mean I've gone on trips with them to Kenya that they were doing and worked with a lot of Mormons and I, yeah, I have mad respect for a lot of Mormons. So. Yeah, no, and I just like shitting on, shitting on their faith when I say that a lot of Americans think they're weird. That is coming from actual data.

[Chelsea Devantes]

No, absolutely. And they knew that too. I think that's also.

[Joe Piazza]

They're well aware. They're well aware. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I loved, I loved, I loved, I loved my best friend and so still have so much love for her. But I don't think I would have become a trad wife because I'd already been through so much fucked up shit in my house. It was already over for me. I was never going to be able to like blindly follow those paths even by the time I was like 13. But had that not been a part of my life, you bet your ass I'd be putting stickers on binders and baking cookies in the shape of a sun. Like I'd be doing that every day.

[Joe Piazza]

So.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, here's another question for you. What are your thoughts on the plastic surgery in these Mormon wives lives? Because I have to constantly remind myself Michaela is 24 because it feels like I'm watching a 35 year old and there is so much beauty and perfectionism. So it's not, this is not an anti beauty statement, but it is a very distinct type of look that comes from plastic surgery that is really odd for my brain to digest. What do you think?

[Joe Piazza]

Yeah, no, it's social media face. It is absolutely social media face. It is actually not good attractive in person at all, but it is something that does look good in selfies and often on reels because it's kind of, like, puffier and larger than life and glowier. And it was really funny that my husband watched the first episode of season one and my husband watches no tv. Like, it's amazing that this man married me because he has no pop culture references.

[Chelsea Devantes]

He was like, she'll do it for me.

[Joe Piazza]

It's so cute. But he watched it and he couldn't tell anyone apart. It was as if he had face blindness. Because the future, I think a lot.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Of people feel that way. They don't feel like they can tell them apart.

[Joe Piazza]

It's hard for me sometimes, too. In fact, when I was starting season two, I kind of wish the way that they provide subtitles sometimes when you can't properly hear someone, which I love, which I like, I do like that because I need a primer. But I'd like them to maybe wear name tags sometimes because.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Or have, like, the Kyron, like the Bachelor, like, they remind you. This is Mikayla. This is the one that she does.

[Joe Piazza]

This exactly like that. Because I had been out of it for about six months from season one, so, like, that a chyron would have been really nice for season two if someone could have provided that with me.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I think that's a great pitch. And this is how I know I grew up in Utah. Because I think you could blindfold me. And by hands alone, I could tell you who each one of them was. Because, you know, when you grow up with a certain type of person, well.

[Joe Piazza]

Then you watch it. And like, you.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes, I could tell them all apart instantly. I mean, the amount of blonde to blonde is a science that I bet I could be like, she's 68%, she's 78%. That's the only true blonde.

[Joe Piazza]

Well, I think they've had a lot more done since season. Season one, too.

[Chelsea Devantes]

So did you see Laila saying, you know, I'm 23 and I got my body done?

[Joe Piazza]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Chelsea Devantes]

What do you think that meant?

[Joe Piazza]

I think it means everything. I think it is a full, like, nip and tuck and the electrodes that they can put on you to then tighten everything. And some boobs and a full face.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, I thought her face looked the same. And then I realized she's definitely changed her face.

[Joe Piazza]

No, her face is different. Her face is 100% different. And I think that is a function of a couple things. One, it's looking at yourself on television which makes anyone want to change their face. I mean, when I started going on TV a bunch when I was doing this celebrity journalism and I had to look at myself all the time. I got a nose job within a year because I was like, oh, fuck no. Like, I want that shit fixed. And also a function of getting vaguely famous. So I'm sure they're getting everything for free now.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, yeah. It's also. We are in a plastic surgery wave that I've actually been really struggling on how to discuss because do you remember when Cher gave that quote to the press where she said, and when I say remember, like, I know it from a meme. It's not like I saw it live, but where she was basically like, if I want to put my tits on my back, I will. Thank you so much for Cher. Yeah, yeah. And I remember being like, yes, bitch. Like, do what you want with your body. Do whatever work. Like, when Jane Fonda talks about plastic surgery, I'm like, live your life. And now we've entered into this era where I can't feel that way anymore because it feels like. And I don't know if there ever was agency in plastic surgery because it. But we have entered a new wave that now has, like, classism and money hand in hand with the work. But then we still have these old ideas of like, well, you can't make fun of or even talk about or even note a woman's looks because that is being anti woman. But that is not applicable to our situation. But I think we are still stuck in that tension because we haven't figured out a way to discuss something really horrible that is happening in women's beauty lately. I'm curious if you have any thoughts to help me or save me.

[Joe Piazza]

I have so many thoughts. So many thoughts. Because I think we were in an age for a long time where it was anti feminist to talk about how another woman looked, to talk about another woman's face. I literally just went through all of this self reflection because I did an episode of my podcast talking about what I like to call MAGA face, which is that every woman in the Trump administration or Trump administration adjacent looks exactly the same. I have the same level of face blindness between Kristi Noem and Ivanka Trump at this point.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah.

[Joe Piazza]

Although I will say Pam Bondi looks very good for her age. I think whatever work she's done, very tasteful. I don't. And also as a celebrity magazine editor, I don't feel as strange about it. Especially when they are women who are putting themselves out there in a very particular way. When we are talking about women who are famous for being famous, who are famous for exhibitionism, for. Famous for putting their. Literally putting their Faces on social media. In my mind it becomes a sort of media critique. And like maybe some people are gonna come after me for that. But I mean, plastic surgery has also changed so much. We are not talking about, you know, a facelift or a boob job or a tummy tuck. We're talking about all manner of injections that can go anywhere in your body to completely transform your face. And you know, when your face is your currency, when your face is the plotline of your show, I think it's okay to talk about it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yeah, well, and that would go more to. And this is the struggle I'm having of like, yeah, like we have such issues with women's looks because we talk about women's looks, because we talk about women's looks. And so it's like, I don't want to add to that. There's also this plastic surgery thing going on where it's actually not beauty sometimes, like especially in maga face, it's a distinct look. But they're not looking for beauty, they're looking for plastic surgery to be visible. And it's just changed. And I feel it's, you know, women are getting fillers when they're like 21 and 22. And so.

[Joe Piazza]

Which is too young, which is.

[Chelsea Devantes]

But that's what I mean. Is it though? Because if we're talking about this being currency and if you're in the media and you're changing your face because you're on there and then young girls are watching that, that's what they'll want. I'm over here too, where I really feel my age because I think of Jennifer Gray, you know, who changed her nose and lost her career. And Barbra Streisand who kept it and made her career right. Or Jane Fonda who changed everything but did it front facing and it was fine. I don't know, I feel like there's. We used to talk about plastic surgery by choice and now I think plastic surgery has taken over choice.

[Joe Piazza]

I don't know. I still think it's a choice. I do, I do. I mean, I think that they're going to get talked about either way.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Right.

[Joe Piazza]

If they don't look a certain way, people are gonna talk about that. If they all look the same like Stepford Wives, people are gonna talk about that. If you are a human being that puts yourself out on media, people are going to talk about you regardless of how you look. And so it is a choice how much you wanna have done to what level and how much you're willing to change. These things. I mean, I do think that we have entered an age of plastic surgery. And also, every time I publicly talk about plastic surgery, people attack me on social media being like, oh, God, no, I could care. Oh, please, I could care less. They can say whatever they want. I have such a thick skin. But people are like, oh, my God, it's because you're ugly and jealous. And I'm like, that's so psychotic cool. Oh, no.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Yes.

[Joe Piazza]

I mean, my comments are amazing. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantes]

That's why people then go and get the work. And someone commented on Layla's Instagram, you know, something about her face, something about her body. And then she went and got body done. But they all got plastic surgery to look more and more and more like each other.

[Joe Piazza]

Yes, they did. Yes, they did. But it's not. I don't think it's just like each other. I think it's just like, that is the look. That is the Instagram face that everyone just moves towards naturally.

[Chelsea Devantes]

They all have the same Utah waves. Not one of them is like, actually, I want more volume or less volume or shoulder length hair. Whitney. I'll give it to Whitney.

[Joe Piazza]

Whitney. Whitney's the only one. Well, it was, you know, I went to a book event yesterday and I had hair and makeup done and I asked them to make me look like a Mormon wife. And she.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Oh, right, because your book event is about trad wives.

[Joe Piazza]

My book is about trad wives, yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, no, make me look like a Mormon wife. And she was a Mormon wife virgin. She didn't know anything about them. So I showed them to her and we started watching videos together. And then we watched videos together for like an hour and a half. And I was late to the event, but it was totally worth it to, like, get to pop her Mormon wife's cherry. And she was like, they do not look Mormon. And I was like, I know, that's the point. She's like, and they all look the same. And I'm like, I think maybe that's also the point. And so then we were going to do my hair, and she's like, your hair's too short. I can't do that. But I could do it like that one. And I'm like, like, Whitney, like, Whitney.

[Chelsea Devantes]

You'Re gonna get a headband and behind your ears.

[Joe Piazza]

I got a headband and tucked it behind my ears. And it was like, that was the only place I could go.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I can't wait to see photos from that. Okay, tell everyone where they can find your book. Listen to Your podcast. Talk more about Tradwives. You're gonna. We're gonna talk about. We're gonna come back, we're gonna discuss more Salt Lake City wives. Tell em everything.

[Joe Piazza]

I just can't wait. I really can't. So, yeah, so I wrote this Trad wife murder mystery because it felt like what Americans also deserved and wanted. And it is just. It's funny because our mutual friend that introduced us read the book and she was like, oh my gosh, this is such glamorous trash. I have to introduce you to Chelsea right away.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And I'm like, shout out to Lauren.

[Joe Piazza]

I'm like, that's the highest compliment I could ever get because love that she.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Read your book and thought that because I requested a galley. So now I get to read your book.

[Joe Piazza]

Oh, you're gonna read it. No, it's just glamorous delicious trash is what it is. And it's Tradwives doing what a lot of these Mormon women are doing, but taking it to an extreme because they start murdering their husbands and. But bucking the patriarchal system. Right? But in just like a juicy, bananas, really fun way. It's called everyone is lying to you because everyone on social media is lying to you. And it's out July 15, but everyone can order it now. And I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be all over the country doing events. You're in la, right?

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'm in la. Part in la.

[Joe Piazza]

I'll be in la. Yeah. Come to my LA event. I will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, come. It'll be fun. We're gonna have a TradWife costume contest.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I have some things.

[Joe Piazza]

I thought you might. I thought I might.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I have some things in my closet. I'm ready if. That sounds like the juiciest, best summer read. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about it and talking about tradwife culture with me.

[Joe Piazza]

Yes, thanks for having me. I'll do it. I can't wait. I'm gonna ignore my kids for two days and binge Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I know.

[Chelsea Devantes]

And you have to start at season one. You have to start at season one, obviously.

[Joe Piazza]

I would never. I would never.

[Chelsea Devantes]

I'm so happy. I'm jealous.

[Joe Piazza]

You should be. I'm gonna send you emails throughout it.

[Chelsea Devantes]

Okay, good. Okay, now we're moving into part two of the podcast where I'm going to go solo and go wife by wife as I give my thoughts on the entire season two rundown of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Okay, let's dive back into the episode but first, I have to tell you my thesis on the key lessons and takeaways between Mormon wives and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. So when you watch these two shows, I believe there are two pieces that go together. They must be studied in the same context. And I really distinctly see female friendship in your 20s versus female friendship in your 30s and beyond. And how you change as a woman as you age come to light in both of these shows. So, like Mormon wives in their 20s, they fight like it's the last fight you'll ever have. Like, you're never gonna see this bitch again. Like, this is the worst that could ever happen to you. That is how these girls are fighting. Demi is calling Taylor disgusting. Michaela is refusing to make up with Whitney, but, like, meeting her for low key, non interesting, dramatic conversations. They fight like, I don't need these women Salt Lake City housewives. They fight like they know their bag is attached to this woman. They know that female friendship doesn't come along easy. They know that you're gonna need women in life to survive, which is why those women stay and remain and have a weird form of forgiveness as they stay in it and battle it out and keep trying to remain friends. It's how Whitney and Heather become friends again. It's why Heather sticks it out so long with toxic Jen Shaw. But it really is the difference of how you view your friendships in your 20s versus your late 30s and beyond. That's how I saw it. I also see the Mormon wives in their 20s. They're like, I can't get divorced. My life will be over. My life will be ruined. Real Housewives, they know they'll be fine. Like, they don't want a divorce, but, like, they'll survive. They've been divorced. They know they'll move on. They're like, these men are good, but if I need to, I can be alone. Whereas the Mormon wives are like, no, I must stay with Zach. There's nothing else left for me. Whereas these other women in their 40s and 50s are like, I'm still fucking other people. I know there will be other men in life to fuck. And so there's just real generational differences within this same culture of Utah women who are all up against the same obstacles of perfectionism and morals and things like that. So these two seasons, these two shows, watching them together is perfect. Why, why, why, why haven't they pulled in Heather Gay to re to run the reunions for Mormon wives? Now I know it's probably like, Heather Gay is under contract with Bravo And Peacock and Mormon Wives is Hulu. I get it, I get it. But, like, there's gotta be an agent or manager out there who can make this bridge happen for all of us. Okay, let's get into the wives, which they're always voting, like, who's in mom talk and who's not in mom talk. When these bitches just did a talk. Do you know what I mean? Like, they will all get up and do their choreographed dance and then they'll be like, now let's vote who's in mom talk. And it's like, I think she's in mom talk because she's doing the choreography with y' all. Like, what are the rules of mom talk? That being said, I love that the show continues even when it's off air because the TikTok drama happened in real time. It happens in the comments, it happens in the back and forth, it happens in the Reddit discourse. And there's already been more drama since the show wrapped. And I just, I really think it's so genius how they've woven in what they do on MomTalk into the show so that they really are both in conversation and they are both their own shows. Okay, first we are going to start with Layla. Oh, Layla. Some producer realized how influenced Layla could be. They saw that Layla wants to please. She wants a storyline. She doesn't know how to fit in. She is lacking her own inner core. And that producer, who I'm sure got a promotion, said, layla, you'll be doing the setups. She's doing the handing Taylor her grand phone with the group chat on it. On a private plane. Or was that a set? It looked like the set of a private plane. It didn't look like a real private plane in any way. Nor was there any mention of like, we just came from this event. Nor was the event shown. It was like they called a camera crew to a Hollywood set of like two rows of plane seats and had her hand Taylor her phone with the group chat, all talking shit about Taylor. They also had Layla do pregnancy roulette. Obviously, this is not a fun game. Layla, the 23 year old with two kids, plays all the time. Obviously she was not missing her period and really thinking that she might be pregnant and thought this was the way to find out because we are barely getting scenes of her in that relationship that she's in with the man. I don't. Couldn't even, I don't even know what I would Google to even find his name. That's how little of an impression he's made on me. Except I did see. I don't know. What did I see? A TikTok, a meme, a thread. I saw something where they said he's giving civil war face. Like, his face looks like the picture of a soldier you see in a textbook from old timey times. And he was giving the Confederate side. Obviously, that's what Layla's boyfriend looks like. Sorry to that man. Anyways, so they were obviously like, we know two women are pregnant. We know Demi is struggling. We know this will cause crazy drama in New Orleans. Hey, Layla, go play pregnancy roulette. The other setup is they said, hey, Layla, you go sit with Marciano. Was it Mars Marciano from Vanderpump Villa in a hotel room and ask him about cheating with Demi? And then he's like, actually, it was Jesse. But what involvement does Leila organically have in any of this? None. She's just. She's doing a producer set list, and I'm worried for her, and I'm also worried for the show because poor Layla, she don't got the range. I like her. She's a sweetheart. But, like, she is not Heather gay. She can't go in and do your talking point setups, your. Your snarky, witty takes on it and then give you, you know, the lines that you need to connect between one shot and the next. Like, Heather does. That ain't Layla. My favorite Layla moment, though, was watching her go to the burlesque show, and when that burlesque dancer took off her pasties and whatever was covering her cooch, Layla's face. I've never seen a jaw physically drop to the floor and eyes physically shoot out of your head. I've never seen someone react with such intensity. That Layla's face when she saw burlesque was the face you make when you see God. Layla saw God that night. I think she's forever changed. Also, Layla was talking about how she would go through the temple with her boyfriend if he wanted to get married because he's a bishop's son, and it's very important to him. And I said, layla, how you gonna get through the temple? Like, I think you've broken a lot of. You have a tattoo. You're on this show. Are you gonna get through the temple? I don't know. Someone weigh in. Can Layla still go through the temple? And then Demi having opinions on Layla going through the temple and not meaning it, but just doing it for her boyfriend. And I said, demi, when did you become Mormon? Like, for some reason, Demi was, like, one of the stronger Mormon representatives this season in a way that was, like, quite shocking. So let's move to Demi. Now, Demi referenced in this season that clearly it was no secret that she was a fan favorite from season one. And I said she was because, I mean, she was fun. She was a very fun side character. She was hilarious. Her drama was wild. It didn't make it to my algorithm that she was the fan favorite. My algorithm was still eaten up by Taylor and really Whitney. And so this to me, another key lesson. You got to know your role in the ensemble. She thrives as the fun side drama gal. Stoking, provoking, being wild in her own life when she is in the center. That is a role that is not for Demi to have because she is not as good of a villain as Whitney or if Taylor became a villain. They are way better villains, I think, because they have a vulnerability to their dark side where when Whitney and Taylor are acting out in terrible ways that make them a villain, you can really see the vulnerable place it's coming from and where their desires have gone wrong to lead them to such crazy actions. Whereas Demi became, like, full on villain with no motivation besides money or she didn't show that softer side. Anyways, I said, go back to being, like, fun side gal. Can I say my biggest take with Demi is that I'm just happy. I'm so, so happy that one of these wives discovered a bold lip. You know, they're all in muted, glossier, fake makeup, light pink, pale makeup. It's sad that it took Christmas to discover a red lip like Demi was like, it's Christmas. It's my Christmas party. I can put on a red lipstick. God, she looked amazing in it. And I hope it brings some new bold lip shades to next season, But I know it won't. She really? I said, not only has this show jumped the shark or her character has jumped the shark, but culture has jumped the shark. When Demi screams at Taylor, look me in the eyes, you narcissist. And I said, oh, boy. This is a moment in time where everything is so messed up and backwards that my brain is breaking. Look me in the eyes, you narcissist. Everything is wrong in this sentence. Watching Demi be a quote, empowered woman this season was so painful. She learned words like narcissist and consent and empowerment. But then she'd be like, we need to empower women, which is why Jen is a liar and should speak up for herself, because we're empowered now. And it's like Demi calling your friends in an emotionally Abusive relationship, a liar is not how we empower women. And, you know, it was a good reminder of just how far we have yet to go, especially in that corner of their Utah neighborhood. Another wild moment for me, and I'm sorry, this is really dark, but Demi was talking. She specifically said the sentence, I really want to know what me and Brett's DNA looks like together. And she said that because they're having fertility issues. And it is specifically Brett. He's much older than her. He is so much older than her that he was in college when he first met Demi, and she was nine. She was nine years old. And they both still have that memory. And I don't know how they got past that, but they did. And he's a lot older than her. And I'm gonna theorize that this man is Roiden. He'd been Roydin out for a long time. He was an athlete, and he is now a semi professional Halloween Chippendales dancer. And so I think he's on some stewards. And we know that affects men's fertility. And so specifically she was saying, but I want to know what me and Brett's DNA looks like together in our child. And it really made me think of how much plastic surgery Demi has had because your child is going to look nothing like how you currently look. And so it was such a fascinating thing for me to wonder about this thing she's craving when she has gone to such lengths to change what her own DNA led to. And I'm sorry, I always think of the kids. I always think of. I mean, anyone out there, I think anyone out there knows what it's like to compare yourself to your mom specifically, or a parent, and how you are different. And like, I like, one huge pain point for me growing up is that my mom is very, very, very naturally slender. And I'm very naturally not. I'm a. I'm a curvy gal. And so especially in the early 2000s, when thinness was like, the only thing you could be, it was so painful for me that, like, I couldn't be like my mom. And so I just think of all these children whose parents get intense plastic surgery, and then if you're the child, that. That would have looked like your parent. And I don't know, it just. It seems like it's going to be a really tough tension. That is a modern, newer issue that I think is going to come up a lot more and more. And let's see, what else do I want to say about Demi? Demi, you were so Shitty in this season. You made Zach look good. That should have been impossible. That's how shitty of a friend she was. Another moment. Now, this is the opposite of what I've been saying. There was this moment where Taylor was really suffering in her relationship with Dakota. And Brett took a hold of that dinner party and was like, do you feel like you don't deserve love and like, you are worthy of love, you are worthy of God's love. And I said, mmm, yummy, yummy, Bishop vibes that. I said, oh, yeah, I forgot what it's like when. And when I say forgot, I mean, like, I used to attend LDS church, which I've mentioned a bunch. But, like, when a man like that, like, just really firmly is like, God loves you, and you're like, it's. I was like, oh, yeah, that. I forgot how compelling this is. And the men in that church are really taught to be these, whether they are or not. The stereotype for men, at least in my limited Mormon experience, really, was to perform a rubric of man that I think exists in romance novels. You know, like, they're really kind, they're really giving, they help others, they provide for their family. They're good fathers, they have good morals. Whether they are those qualities or not, those were the qualities that were upheld in the men in the community I grew up in. I remember my best friend's dad was like, very much like a Brett. And I just forgot, oh, listen, maybe I'm Mormon pilled. But when he started telling Taylor, like, how loved she was and Taylor has a lot of daddy daddy issues and so do I, I went, yeah, I forgot how nice a little dinner party sermon like that feels coming from coming from a roid man. Just feels very powerful. And finally, I'll just say it was so cool. Cool. Yeah. I loved how meta this season got because I think often in reality shows when it gets meta, it still feels very scripted. It feels almost like they're breaking the storylines. Whereas they are so new to fame and filming that when they are discussing how much they're being paid, who's getting the spotlight, who gets the COVID they are really discussing it and they mean it. And Demi saying that, quote, we need to take turns. Who gets the spotlight, who gets interviews, who gets to stand in the middle of photo shoots, I said, oh, Taylor wasn't making up the CMA's drama. Like, yes, you all side messaged her, whatever. But in some views of Taylor's CMA drama, you could think like, oh, Taylor was being petty and she was making drama where there wasn't any because these girls all wished her, like, a happy CMAs. But she was picking up on something very real, which is that Demi wants to be at the cmas presenting an award. Terribly sorry, Taylor, but that was. She's really good at being herself on a reality show. She's not. Don't give her lines. You can see that. Like, Demi wants that. And Demi being like, Jesse should get kicked out, so I should make more money. And Jesse is her best friend. And thinking like that, owning it was fun. I said, ugh, see this, this is why you gotta go back to being a side character. We can't spend this much time on you because you're. You get so much wrong. Also, Demi full throat screaming, we need to be healthy and successful was another real favorite moment of mine. Let's go into Jesse where I again I say, damn you. And Demi made Zach like Jen's best option. Jyn herself had to turn back to her husband because you were such terrible friends. Jesse's interesting for me and that she really always reads like a sidelined character, even though she so intensely wants to lead. Like, the amount of toxicity she just threw at the camera was real fun. She's like, I'm. I'll invite them, I'll dress as them. I'll pull this out, prank, like, whatever will get me on camera. But when presented with a real deep issue, which is that Demi said your salon business sucked the entire reason you're on the show to promote Jay Z Styles, obviously, she. She genuinely was like, Jesse's bad at hair. That is Jesse's identity. And genuinely was like, Jesse's worthless on the show. Get rid of her and give me more money. It took her episodes to lightly confront Demi and you can see her hurt, but it all stays within which I think she's just slowly processing that. But it doesn't make for great TV where like, you want her to process and act on her feelings. And I don't think she's ready for that because we also didn't see any of the issues in her marriage, which clearly at the end of the season, talking about how maybe Jesse cheated, maybe she didn't, maybe they're getting divorced. So them's the rumors on Reddit right now. We didn't get to see any glimpses of that because I don't think she brings her emotions forth. She, like, she can do like, high level thought of this costume will fuck them up, but she's not going to emotionally be present in the scene and or show or share her Relationship. However, one VIP moment for Jesse, her being like, I don't know if I. I don't know if I believe in the b. In the Book of Mormon and I don't know if I'm Mormon anymore. And they were all like, what? And she was like, I mean, there weren't phones back then, so there's not proof. I mean, how do we know? And I said, yeah, I love the rudimentary thinking. There weren't phones back when Joseph got the Mormon plates, so how do we know if he really got them or not? Right, Jesse? So fun. And also this conversation where learning that unless you go through the church process, you will see still be sealed to your ex husband and go to heaven with him rather than your next husband or future husband or no husband, and how that shakes their belief. I'm like, yes. Or how you need to be married to the father of your child in order to be sealed to your kids and see them in heaven. Like, that's, you know, patriarchy being embedded in a religion. And when they are taking all the power back in present day but have this, like, heaven life, they have to think of where their husband's still in charge. It's making them rethink the religion. And I thought that was like one of the cooler glimpses or more fascinating glimpses into some of the deeper and more nuanced parts of Mormonism that I don't always think make it to screen. Okay, Macy, I didn't write anything. I have no notes and I have no notes, man, I. I even know there's gonna. Well, I. There should be stuff in her memoir about, you know, getting pregnant and losing the father to her child while she's a student at byu, while she still tries to uphold Mormonism. I couldn't sketch her husband's face from memory if I tried. And I know he was on screen at least once. I appreciate her if she is the only glue actually keeping them a group, but I don't know if she is. And if not, like, what are we doing? What do we bring into camera? Macy, what are you doing here? Did you just get stuck with this group of friends and you were too nice to make different ones? I'm curious why she wants to be on this show, and I hope we see a reason for it in season three, because it can't really be selling that many of her baby vitamin gummies, can it? Mikayla. Oh, Mikayla. Okay, VIP moment. Let me start with my favorite moment of Mikayla this entire season. Michaela knowing how to pronounce New Orleans from Princess Tiana. Listen, this is theme of the podcast. Theme of the podcast, which is that we can learn a lot from low level, quote, trashy art, a Disney princess movie, that these are actually our culture makers. This knew how to pronounce New Orleans because of Princess Tiana. And the rest of them are like, New Orleans, New Orleans. Really? If you are really, really from New Orleans, which I'm not gonna be able to do this correctly, but I did live in New Orleans with my mom for six hot months of my life when I was a teenager. It's closer to like Nolan's, like, it's one word. Listen. Patreon comments. I know you will explain this better than I can, but it's closer to New Orleans versus New Orleans. I'm really worried every time a therapist agrees to be on camera in a reality show, specifically a sexual trauma therapist. I've been in therapist situations where they, they have recommended that exercise that we saw on camera where it's like, say everything to me that you wish you could say to your abuser. And I could. I mean, I couldn't do it. I couldn't. My personal experience is that I couldn't do it without cameras. I couldn't do it then. I've never successfully done that exercise because it's so difficult. I'm really glad that people can. I do think from feedback I've gotten from this podcast, I think I'm pretty close to the surface with my emotions. I cry all the time. Saying how I feel and think isn't one of my issues. I have many, but that's not one of them. And that exercise for me was impossible. Michaela doing it on camera for what seems to be truly her first times going to therapy for this childhood sexual abuse just felt like that's when you just wish a producer would say no. Michaela would say no, or the therapist would say no. It really worries me every time I see a therapist making a decision that. And listen, I only have. I've seen a lot of therapists. Have you read my book? There's only one that really has changed my life. It's my current one. And when I think, like, would my therapist ever do that? Like, I know she would never go on camera. I know she would. I would. There's no party I could throw and she would attend. Like, there's just. And she'll tell me the boundaries of why and how it affects the practice and the client therapist relationship, patient therapist relationship. And so, yeah, it's just very odd to me. And I Feel sad for Michaela. I don't think this should be how she's processing it. If you don't know Michaela's backstory, it's not on camera enough. She was kicked out of her house. It's clearly coming. Here's what I think it is. I think her mom's husband sexually abused Michaela, blew the whistle on it. Her mom said, I don't believe you kicked Michaela out of the house. When she was 15. She gets a job, she has to live with her sisters. She has to survive on her own. She meets her husband at the, I want to say it was like a soda shop where she was working. How do I know this? I listened to some weird podcasts, some weird, weird podcasts a long time ago during season one and as a 15 year old meets this, I believe, 21 year old or he's a lot older. They have sex, she gets pregnant, they are married. That is the husband we now see. And so that's just a lot. Now that said, I'm really not into low energy fighting. I want you to, I want you to mean it. And Mikayla brings such low energy to the game that I, I need more of it. And it really is a classic. Like someone who's great on TikTok is actually not great in long form or not great live, not a great performer, but crushes it on TikTok. And that's Mikayla and she holds a lot of power in the group because next to Taylor, she has the most followers on TikTok. She might even have the most now. And so she holds that power in the group but it's, it doesn't cross over to camera Miranda. My first note is, oh my God, I forgot Miranda was here. What's a letdown? What a letdown to finally bring on the other wife who was swinging, who denied Taylor's claims, who was her best friend, who was at points her lover. Finally, finally get her on the show. And it brought nothing. It brought nothing. Now that said, Miranda, I love her. I hope she stays. I loved her presence and I'm like, why? She's not even bringing much. And here's what I want to say. I again, this is very specific to me and my niche Utah experience. But there was a certain type of likability in some of the quote, perfect Mormon girls. That was so perfect it consumed me. And Miranda exudes this perfectly. She has just enough of an opinion to be interesting, but never enough that it causes drama. She's just interesting enough to be interesting, but she's not actually interesting scene. She laughs at your jokes, but she's not making the jokes. It's this Mormon, like, ability that I can't put my finger on. And it's still working on me because I was like, yay, Miranda's here. At the end of the season, Miranda is weighing in on what mom talk should be. And I was like, wow, what a change. What a change. Let's see. I hope. I just. I want more from Miranda next season. I want a lot. Okay, we've got three more wives. Here we go. Jen. I feel really, really sad for Jen. Jen is another one of these wives who you don't see their backstory enough, which is, like, at some points when Jen was a teenager, like, she'd been kicked out and was homeless. And again, has this horrible power dynamic with Zach where his dad is the head of the hospital, where her mom is a cleaner, and to her have gotten this. I'm sure she felt at the time perfect. The most blondest man in Utah became her husband. And also, like, there's also racial undertones in Utah, as everywhere, of course, but also Utah has a specific relationship with them and Jen being Latina and that playing a role in, like, what it must have meant for Zach to marry her. Where, like, it probably never would have been said out loud that his family didn't want him to do that. But it's hard for me to imagine, at least in the communities I grew up in, that there weren't some, like, hidden feelings or some conversations where his parents pulled him aside. And I think that's probably a part of their marriage. I think Jen is an extreme people pleaser, and that makes her stretch the truth. And I think she's in an emotionally abusive relationship with Zach. I think it is psychotic, psychotic that he is trying to, on camera, say that Jen made up the Affleck thing and get her to agree with it, to not embarrass his family and not embarrass himself. Because clearly she's like, why did your grandpa say it to me then? And I think he's doing a lot of that. I think he was like, in order for us to stay together, do not talk about how I gambled my medical school money away, okay? And then she's collapsing under the pressure of Demi and Jesse being like, well, are you a liar or not a liar? I really. My heart is breaking for her. The little press tour she's doing with Zach, where I think she's trying to participate and keep this career and do all the interviews she's trying to show up, but I think it's damaging. I think Zach is loving it way too much. And the saddest scene I think I've ever seen, definitely in the history of this show, but also of any reality show, is the scene where Jen finds out she's pregnant and she's sobbing because she does not want to be pregnant. And their other child is on their lap as she cries. And a camera is there, and the child's looking into the camera and says, I'm scared. That was the time where I said, maybe I can't watch this show anymore. I just feel really sad. And now Zach is like, she tricked me into having a baby. She took her IUD out and she's laughing through it. But, like, I just think there is a much darker, more complicated backstory to all of this. Whitney, Whitney, Whitney, Whitney, Whitney, please, please come back into season three more and be our villain again. We need you. And since Whitney is Demi's only friend, I do think we're gonna get a villain duo. I like it. I want it. Whitney, do you know when someone does a somersault, but it's. They're not like a gymnast, right? So they're just kind of like. They're doing. They're doing a roll. They've done a somersault roll on the ground, but it's not, like, impressive. It's just kind of like you just kind of, like, flop into a somersault. That's what Whitney did. Back into mom talk. She just kind of, like, somersault floppy rolled back into mom talk. And at the very last end of the episode, she's like, yay, I'm back, and I need more of her. And my VIP moment actually goes to her husband Connor, who, shockingly, I think only had one haircut this season. And he talked about cheating and being a cheater and letting Whitney down and what they had to do to get back together. It was in context of him advising Taylor and Dakota, to which I said, I don't know if you should be giving the advice here, but I liked that it was talked about because this was one of the craziest bombshells of season one that just got moved on from way too soon. And Connor is also really selling this narrative of, like, I don't cheat anymore, and I've made it better, and we made it through to the point where I believe him, and that can't be good. Something crazy is going to happen in later seasons, and finally Taylor. Taylor can carry a reality show on her back, and she does without even trying. She has an avalanche of volatile emotions that I sadly relate to, but she lets them all out on camera. I'm so happy that it looks like from the show airing she and Dakota are finally over. I am so sad that they named their son Ever True. Ever True when their entire storyline is Dakota lying to her. I think once she realizes that there are better men than Dakota out there, her life's gonna change. I hope she takes a trip out of state and meets some of them. Taylor being handed multiple phones and reading the incriminating evidence herself this season. Wow, what a gift. She had two phones handed to her this season. And finally, her mom coming in in the Christmas party. I have a lot of thoughts about this. Taylor sends her mom in or her mom taps in every season. It's weird. I would say, like, it is so crazy that Demi was so shitty that you aren't even mad that Taylor sent her mom to fight her fight, which is where you should be like, I think it's Katie on Vanderpump Rules who always taps her mom in to do the fighting. It's like, get. Get your sweet moms off the reality show and out of that bar and do the fighting yourself. I don't respect that move. And yet Demi handled it so poorly. I ended up being mad at Demi. However, did Taylor send her mom in or did Taylor's mom say, I didn't do a tiptopus full body makeover and carry 40 pounds of extensions on my head not to walk in and steal a scene this season. And I will be delivering that Christmas gift and crying because I'm also now one of the Mormon wives who looks 21 years old thanks to some of the craziest plastic surgery one could ever get. I think she was like, I will be on camera, Taylor, you sit your ass down. I'm delivering a shady gift. That's what I think happened. That is my wife rundown. What if I missed one of the wives? That would be funny. That would say more than what I've said. I think I got to all the wives. Thank you again for messaging and writing in and making this a safe space for me to yell about Mormon wives. I of course want all your thoughts in the Patreon comments. It's why we have a Patreon, so we can read the comments. I know there are some ex mos, some current Mormons, some different people at different religious places in their life that I think can bring a lot to this conversation. Patreon is the place to have it. We have a whole chat, but also the comments on the actual post. So I would love to hear your takes. Like I said, I only spent eight years there when I was a kid, so I want, like, I just want people's takes on this. It's so fascinating I could discuss it forever. And thank you so much for listening. And we will return to your normal literary book and article content, at least until Love island drops. And if it's a good season, I'll be back. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, trash T R A S H2 audiobooks for the price of one at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.