Sheryl Sandberg’s Memoir Lean In (with Becca Platsky)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode Summary: Sheryl Sandberg’s Memoir Lean In (with Becca Platsky)
Release Date: March 21, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Becca Platsky, Host of Corporate Gossip

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Introduction

In this episode, Chelsea Devantez hosts Becca Platsky to dissect Sheryl Sandberg’s 2013 memoir, Lean In. Initially approaching the book with intentions of humor and lighthearted discussion for Women’s History Month, both hosts delve deeper into the book’s implications on feminism, corporate culture, and societal shifts.

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Contextual Backdrop

Chelsea:
Chelsea sets the stage by reflecting on the absence of a significant Women’s March in recent times compared to the massive turnout in 2016. She connects this observation to the themes in Lean In, suggesting that the book may hold answers to the current state of feminist activism.

Becca:
Becca introduces the conversation by sharing her personal connection to the book, having read the outline shortly before the episode was recorded. She mentions a newly announced book about Facebook, Careless People by Sarah Wynn Williams, highlighting the intertwined narratives between the two books and hinting at future discussions.

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Initial Impressions of Lean In

Chelsea:
Chelsea admits she approached Lean In expecting a mix of humor and critique but found herself surprisingly ruminating on its deeper messages. She questions why the momentum for feminist marches has dwindled since 2016 and ponders if Lean In contributes to this shift.

Becca:
Becca shares her own journey with Lean In, recalling her time at a Big Four consulting firm and how Sandberg’s message initially resonated with her as empowering. However, upon deeper analysis, she felt conflicted by Sandberg’s portrayal of feminism as a push to mimic male behaviors in the corporate world.

Notable Quote:
Becca (07:18): “I felt like I was, you know, bitch slapped. And it reminded me... a crisis.”

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Critical Analysis of Sandberg’s Messaging

Discussion on Privilege and Corporate Culture: Both hosts critique Sandberg’s emphasis on individual confidence and internal change within the patriarchal corporate system. They argue that Lean In inadvertently places the responsibility of overcoming systemic gender inequality on women themselves, neglecting broader structural reforms.

Chelsea:
Chelsea highlights Sandberg’s portrayal of Harvard, questioning the integrity and fairness of the institution. She expresses frustration with Sandberg’s anecdotal evidence, such as claiming it’s virtually impossible to receive a failing grade at Harvard, which she finds unsubstantiated and indicative of Sandberg’s privileged perspective.

Becca:
Becca points out the narrow audience Sandberg targets—primarily white, affluent women—and criticizes the lack of inclusivity in Sandberg’s advice. She emphasizes that Sandberg’s strategies are not universally applicable, especially for women without similar privileges or supportive partnerships.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea (23:01): “What the fuck do you mean it's impossible to get a C at Harvard?”

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Sandberg’s Role at Facebook and Ethical Concerns

Corporate Responsibilities and Scandals: The conversation shifts to Sandberg’s tenure at Facebook, particularly during the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Both hosts scrutinize Sandberg’s leadership and ethical decisions, suggesting her role may have inadvertently facilitated harmful practices within the company.

Becca:
Becca questions whether Sandberg was complicit or merely a scapegoat, referencing reports that Sandberg attempted to suppress negative information about former associates. She draws parallels between Sandberg’s actions and the broader issues of accountability among corporate leaders.

Chelsea:
Chelsea discusses the long-term impacts of Facebook’s data mishandling and misinformation, asserting that Sandberg’s approach to leadership contributed to these failures. She likens Sandberg’s departure to a scene from Succession, where a character gracefully takes the fall for corporate misdeeds.

Notable Quote:
Becca (40:31): “I think that she really benefited from so many opportunities that were specifically only given to her because of everything about her background.”

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Feminism and Systemic Change

Debating Individual vs. Systemic Solutions: The hosts debate whether individual empowerment, as advocated by Sandberg, is sufficient to address systemic gender inequality. They argue that Lean In lacks a comprehensive approach to challenging and dismantling patriarchal structures, instead promoting assimilation into the existing system.

Chelsea:
Chelsea criticizes the book’s limited scope, emphasizing that true change requires collective action and systemic transformation rather than individual strategies for navigating corporate hierarchies.

Becca:
Becca concurs, advocating for broader solidarity and community-focused activism over performative gestures. She suggests that focusing on local, grassroots movements is more effective than striving for symbolic “seats at the table” within corporate power structures.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea (27:02): “The problem back onto you personally. It is how you personally treat women. That is feminism. No, it's not.”

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Broader Implications and Future Directions

Shift in Activism and Community Focus: Becca shares her optimism about the future, noting a shift towards community-centric activism and mutual aid in her local area. She highlights the importance of grassroots movements and class solidarity over traditional gender-based activism.

Chelsea:
Chelsea echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for practical, localized efforts to build solidarity and effect change. She laments the decline of large-scale, performative protests in favor of more subtle, sustained community engagement.

Notable Quote:
Becca (63:54): “If shit hits the fan, I still have to work with the people on my street to make sure that we have what we need.”

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Conclusion and Takeaways

Summary of Criticisms: Both hosts articulate that while Lean In brought important conversations about gender inequality to the mainstream, its approach is limited by Sandberg’s privileged perspective and focus on individual success within the existing system. They argue for a more holistic approach to feminism that addresses systemic issues and fosters genuine solidarity.

Future Episodes: Chelsea teases the next episode, which will delve into Becca’s upcoming discussion on Sarah Wynn Williams’ Careless People, drawing connections between the two books and exploring the broader narrative of corporate malfeasance and gender dynamics.

Closing Remarks: The episode wraps up with testimonials to Becca’s podcast, Corporate Gossip, encouraging listeners to explore further discussions on corporate scandals and ethical breaches in the business world.

Notable Quote:
Becca (75:06): “CEOs or executives have lied more than Sheryl Sandberg, but no CEO or executive has lied for longer.”

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Becca Platsky (07:18): “I felt like I was, you know, bitch slapped. And it reminded me... a crisis.”
• Chelsea Devantez (23:01): “What the fuck do you mean it's impossible to get a C at Harvard?”
• Becca Platsky (40:31): “I think that she really benefited from so many opportunities that were specifically only given to her because of everything about her background.”
• Chelsea Devantez (27:02): “The problem back onto you personally. It is how you personally treat women. That is feminism. No, it's not.”
• Becca Platsky (63:54): “If shit hits the fan, I still have to work with the people on my street to make sure that we have what we need.”
• Becca Platsky (75:06): “CEOs or executives have lied more than Sheryl Sandberg, but no CEO or executive has lied for longer.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a critical examination of Sheryl Sandberg’s Lean In, highlighting its strengths in initiating conversations about gender inequality while also exposing its shortcomings in addressing systemic issues. Through candid dialogue, Chelsea and Becca encourage listeners to move beyond individualistic approaches and embrace collective action for meaningful societal change.

For those interested in deeper dives into corporate ethics and scandals, Becca’s Corporate Gossip podcast is highly recommended.

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Follow Becca Platsky:

• Podcast: Corporate Gossip
• Instagram & TikTok: @corporategossippod
• Patreon: Access exclusive content and updates from ongoing corporate trials and bonus episodes.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontes]

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[Becca Platsky]

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[Chelsea Devontes]

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[Becca Platsky]

Can you believe it?

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think Lean in might lead us to the truth. But don't worry, we are still the trashy pop culture podcast you are subscribed to and it is going to Be filled with juicy ass goss and some weird highlights. And speaking of weird highlights, my haircut in 2013, the same year this book was published. Okay. What is also most interesting to me about this week's episode is that a couple of days after we recorded it, a new book was announced about Facebook. A book that is so truth telling and whistleblowing that the publishers didn't even announce this book's existence until the day it came out because they knew Facebook would sue and do everything they could to try and shut it down. And they, of course, have done all of those things. The book is called Careless People. It's a tell all written from one of their top employees, Sarah Wynn Williams, who just wow. The stuff in this book is. Is. It's wild. It's wild. So we raced to get copies of it, and it's amazing timing that somehow we just happen to have done Lean In. Because this episode is going to be the precursor setting you up for next week's episode when we cover Careless People. The connections between these two books tell its own story. And the things in this episode about Lean in that my guest and I made predictions about based on Cheryl's book Lean In. So many of them turned out to be true, proven in this new book, Careless People, and we're gonna go into depth all about it in the next episode. For me, these two episodes have made me feel so energized and emboldened. It's a very like knowledge is power feeling. I. I truly feel, after these two books, armed and ready to take on. So. So listen carefully this week and then tune in next week for the wildest book of 2025 that will explain everything about the past decade of our lives. And now, before we get to that, let's lean in. I've been really lucky, and I think with that comes not just the opportunity, but the responsibility to help other women. Because in your book you say, it's funny, you don't hear a lot of people saying a man is lucky. So when a man is successful at something and asked why, he'll attribute that success to his own skills. When a woman is successful, she will attribute that success to luck, help from others. It sounds like you're telling women to act more like a man. I'm not telling women to act more like a man. I am telling women that we need to believe in ourselves. Our guest today is Becca Platsky. Becca is the host of Corporate Gossip, the business podcast that covers all the juicy Wall street scandals from Enron to Peloton. When she's not talking shit about CEOs. She's thinking about the great loves of her life, her dog Sandy and Jimmy Carter.

[Becca Platsky]

Hi.

[Chelsea Devontes]

How are you?

[Becca Platsky]

The future is female, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Then when is the future? When does the future start? You think if it's female, do you think that's, like, what year? 3075. It's coming, it's coming, it's coming.

[Becca Platsky]

One of these. One of these years.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Then what do I do with the shirt I already own?

[Becca Platsky]

When you told me you were gonna wear that shirt, I. I'm certain that I have some deep, buried deep with some, you know, what did they say? Adorable deplorables? Or the future is outside of your comfort zone, or life begins at the end of your comfort zone.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Sure, sure, sure. I'm with her. I had one, actually. I stand behind this one where it said, don't get raped. And then it had crossed out the letters so that it just said, don't rape. And then I cut it into a crop top to be subversive. Then I wore it places. I am so glad you're here. And I introduced all my guests with a story of how we first met. But our story, which is one of my ultimate favorites, lives on another episode when you first guested and we covered Kimberly Gargoyle. Now, Becca, any new thoughts on Kimberly in the past year since, you know, she became both a part of the Trump administration, but also sent far, far away to Greece When Donald Trump Jr. Dumped her? And then they made Kimberly Guilfoyle Gargoyle the United States ambassador to Greece so that she would just go away for a while.

[Becca Platsky]

I hope she's living her Mamma Mia dreams. She deserves it.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She deserves all the salami, as we've learned. Yes, she absolutely deserves to wade into the ocean and maybe just live out her reign there so she can't hurt anyone. Okay, Becca, this. What a doozy of a book of an episode. Please describe to everyone the mood board you sent me as you were reading Lean In.

[Becca Platsky]

So the first thing that came to mind when I was reading this book, because I had to get myself back in a place of 2013 and what I genuinely thought of Sheryl Sandberg then. And I was working at a big four consulting firm. I was 23. It was my first job out of college. And I was sucking this, like, I was absolutely eating this propaganda.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Num, num, num.

[Becca Platsky]

I mean, I was going to conferences. I was wearing my vinyl flats that stunk like shit, and I just was.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, those flats were so stinky. All of us with stank feet in our little flats, you know, 30 bucks at Target Metallics.

[Becca Platsky]

Yes. And it was just. And I loved it. And my office at the time, I mean, we'd have leans in circles, you know, so then I had to, like, when I kind of put that up against what I was researching, it was like, who is this woman? I felt like I was, you know, bitch slapped. And it reminded me, I told you of, you know, Lala Kent in 2015, I think, being called a feminist icon, and then two years later, headbutting a trans woman.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That was the mood board you sent me.

[Becca Platsky]

Or Bethany Frankel. This is a crisis. And then three years later, eating crab with her fingers on live. You know, it was just like this dichotomy of, like, this woman who put herself up on this pedestal to be this person that, you know, even though she'll say in the book, you can't have it all, but I can. And then we come to find out that she might have been the person that created the monster that is Mark Zuckerberg, that she was an absolute tyrant to work for when Facebook was going through the Cambridge Analytica scandal, that she could have done more to stop it and didn't. Yeah. And I think it's the question that we asked before with the Kimberly Guilfoyle episode, which is, you know, is this person an evil person? Or did they just get too close to power and not have enough checks and not have enough close friends around to say, like, hey, Cheryl, like, this isn't you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, Cheryl, girlfriend, girlfriend. This ain't you. You know, I think the classic one is like, you lean too far. Lean back. Yeah. And, you know, I have an even more fucked up question coming for you than what we cast in our Kimberly Gargoyle episode. And it's coming for you. It's coming in a minute. And I want to say, oh, there's just so much to get into. Okay, first, let's go back to 2013. Because you're like, I need to get in that headspace. So I want to take people back because I also needed to remember where I was, because, let's be honest, this book blew my gourd off. I was like, what? Only 20% of us raise our hand. Oh, my God.

[Becca Platsky]

Same.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I remember quoting it to a friend who was much smarter than me and was like, no, thank you. But it was the zeitgeist lingo. It was handed to you in a way. Like, feminist lingo was not being handed to you. Beyonce hadn't stood in front of A sign blinking the lights of feminism behind her yet. So 2013, frozen and the hunger Games are dominating the box office with Let It Go becoming an anthem. And the Hunger Games, which I think fully fucking hold up. We're an anti capitalist ya dream starring a woman with a bow and arrow like it was our time. Orange is the New Black had just debuted on Netflix like an all female show in prestige television. Jennifer Lawrence had to become our quirky sweetheart, winning an Oscar for Silver Linings Playbook and tripping her way to the stage. Like, is that not of a cultural moment? You can just like tap back into, like a childhood memory.

[Becca Platsky]

Everything was so. We were out of the recession. I mean, for the most part, things were looking up. And I'd also add to that. Everybody loved tech companies. Everybody was talking about, oh, you want to be working for a company that you can believe in. Millennials want to work for companies where they believe in the mission and they feel that they can do good. Yeah. And Facebook was one of those companies. And Obama was president, and we work.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Was giving out kombucha on tap.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God. And like, so much was possible.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, absolutely. It was a real, like. I mean, this is what hit me really hard. I was gonna say reading lean in, but it was from reading your outline, which is how fully the idea that you can make a change from within, within the institution has died. And for me, personally, I'm. Maybe I'm stupid for saying this. It was this year. Like, I've. I've been in writers rooms of shows where I'm like, but I'm making a change from within by stopping the joke about her tits. You know what I mean? Like, look at me. And the idea of, like, well, we are in this system, so you have to do the best you can and you have to, like, change from within. I mean, that real was the entire thesis of Kamala's memoir, which we read and I think really, really, really lean in. Revisiting it drives home the idea that, like, you cannot change a system while upholding it at the same time.

[Becca Platsky]

And that's where I, like the biggest question I have about this memoir. And Cheryl, knowing what we know about her now is like, did she know? And was she trying to pull one over on us and say, no, no, no, no, don't look behind the covers. Don't question it. Actually, what all these men are doing. Sergei Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk. You actually just need to be more like them. There's nothing that they're doing that's wrong. The Only problem is you're not more like them. And maybe had we questioned and thought, like, huh, maybe a 23 year old shouldn't be running a massive multinational public corporation.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

Then maybe we could have avoided some of the things that we are dealing with today.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Also, I just want to underline for anyone who's not following. You are talking about Mark Zuckerberg.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Who was 23, running Facebook when Cheryl signed on, who was 15 years older than him.

[Becca Platsky]

She's 38. He's 23. Yeah. And he recruits her from Google. And I just cannot imagine working for a 23 year old. I don't care if you went to Harvard.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Well, yeah, and she. And so did she. And so. Okay, we have some stuff on Harvard to get into. Okay. Before we leave this flashback into 2013, I just want to point out a couple of other things. Miley Cyrus was twerking at the VMAs. Another form of like taking. Taking back the night. The selfie craze had just rocketed. And this is the year Oxford named selfie the word of the year. And here's what is within all of that. Twitter is our breaking news. It's like the height of. Of tweeting. I want to point out something really small that also happened that year. Amanda Bynes had a public breakdown. And this, to me encapsulates 2013, where it's like Hunger Games. Let it go. Lean in. And then quietly in the corner, Amanda Bynes is dangling her wig out the window. Being called mentally unhinged. All these words. And even now, even now. And I. I mean, this is my psa. People don't realize that Britney Spears manager Sam Lufty, who was with her when he walked her into a conservatorship that her parents ran, was also Amanda Bynes manager when she was walked into her conservatorship. So this, to me is this feminist era where it's like, we're good girls. And then like, right around the corner, we're like, that girl's acting fucking crazy. And then behind her is just like a man destroying her life as we all watch. And honestly, like, be like, she's nuts. You know, like, we were not calling anything out. That was actually happening.

[Becca Platsky]

That's incredible. I had no idea, first of all. But then also to tie the Amanda Bynes of it all. And what other woman represents millennial? She, to me is like the one of the most. You know, she was our funny girl.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She was like the first preteen. And she had her own sketch show, which Represented definitely to me. And I think many people of like, oh, and women can be funny. Young girls can be funny. They can run their own show, only to see, like, what was happening to her. So let's dive in to some highlights from the actual book Lean In. And just before we get into Lean In, I want to call out that Cheryl does have a second book. Do you know what the title of it is?

[Becca Platsky]

I. I thought in my head it was Plan B, but it's Option B. But I had fully Mandala affected myself into thinking it was Plan B.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Plan B, yeah. Yeah. It's called Option B. Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy. And since she didn't choose Plan B, I'm like, okay, you do have a handle on your feminist zeitgeist. However, if Option B is a book about finding joy, it sure makes Lean in sound like Option A, which is leading a miserable fucking life. When you read the book again, what do you think Cheryl was genuinely saying with Lean In? Like, what was one of the major headlines? Oh, having just read it, you know.

[Becca Platsky]

I. I was surprised. We had talked about the fact that it wasn't as offensive as I thought it was going to be. I thought she wasn't going to acknowledge her privilege and the fact that a lot of these decisions she can make because, you know, she has a husband who's another. Who's a CEO and she's a leader, and, you know, as a CEO, she gets to make her schedule and all that kind of stuff. But I was surprised that so much of it was, like I said earlier, just, you should be more like a man. Well, men do this, and women don't do that as much, and men do this, and women are too afraid to do that. And it's like she has, like, an incredibly binary view of feminism, as feminism is just doing things more like men.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And it's just so uninspected for somebody who went to Harvard twice.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Ooh, yeah. To that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I definitely, like, in 2013, I. Even way before that, like, at least a few years before that, I remember getting a. A specific compliment a handful of times in my life, in my. In my improv career, my illustrious improv career, in which someone. Audience member, someone playing with me, a teacher would say, you improvise like a man, and you're ruthless. And I was like, yes, yes, I've done it. And I was like, highest compliment. Thank you. And I think that also is why this book resonated with me within that moment, because I believed it was a compliment, and books like this reinforced it. Like, the best thing you can do is be like a man.

[Becca Platsky]

I think it's interesting because just this year, at least for me, I think we're finally starting to question that maybe we shouldn't take so many risks. Maybe we shouldn't fail fast and early and break things. That's not working. I mean, look at all the men. There's a picture that I put in the outline of Sheryl Sandberg with the men that, you know, she would be incredibly complimented to be compared to Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel. And she's sitting there and, oh yeah, Donald Trump and Mike Pence. And she's sitting at a table with them and. And what did she say? Get a seat at the table. And I'm like, this is the table you wanted to sit at? Cheryl?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I want to underline what you said, which is, I texted you, I said, please help me. Have I lost my mind? I. I am not offended at this book. I expected to read it and be like, what? What the hell? And I really think the discourse and the zeitgeist conversation around this book totally molded it into something that it actually isn't. Now. It did do a lot of fucked up shit, but I was the only message to be, you can confidence your way out of anything if you just go for it, girlfriend. And that, that definitely isn't there. And you know what? No wonder the message worked, because that's in your control. You know what's not in your control? A hundred systemic years of patriarchy. You can't change that tomorrow morning. But you could be like, oh, it's me and my confidence. You can feel in control. And it feels a lot nicer than feeling hopeless. However, there were a lot of caveats in this book. Like, instead of blaming women for not negotiating more, we need to recognize that women often have good cause to be reluctant to advocate for their own interests because doing so can easily backfire. And it's about how all the ways in which a woman acts like a man makes her unlikable because she's always graded on the female unlikable scale, which then tanks anything she could have possibly done. And I didn't expect her to be making those caveats. I thought it was gonna just be about confidence. And to that I say like, okay, so she did note that some of this is bullshit.

[Becca Platsky]

I think this is again, where, like, she's smart enough, she went to Harvard, she understands that every single thing that goes in this book has to be backed up.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Right?

[Becca Platsky]

And that's like one example of, like, she knows that she can't just use anecdotal evidence. And I will say to that point, like, in the years following this book's publication, I definitely saw. And granted, I had just started working, but at least from other people who had been working for longer than I had, they had noticed that this was way different. Men recognizing certain things like, you know, rewarding assertiveness or aggressiveness and understanding. I even remember going through an exercise where we took all of the job postings at the company that I was working with and changed the language. So rather than being, you know, because I guess that there's certain language that, that men will find more appealing and language that women will find more appealing in terms of job applications or job opportunities. And so making it a little bit more like non binary. So things like that. I don't know if that would have been as mainstream if she hadn't written this book. So that's probably one of the only things I'll say good about her in this book, but I have to acknowledge that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about the Harvard stuff. Because you're like, listen, she went to Harvard, so she's smart enough. However, the stuff I learned about Harvard in this book, first off, I've never respected it. Secondly, this book made it much worse. We gotta talk about her Harvard anecdotes.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God, do I? Yeah, I guess you would never know that she goes to Harvard. Like, it's so. She's so annoying.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Well, which also, I have to say, like, as a. I do know. I listen to any friend of mine who went to Harvard is like, is Shelsevi means me. No, I love you so much. And I know that they all have the joke of like the H word, you know, and everyone dropping Harvard, but she wrote this. She said it is virtually impossible to get a C at Harvard if the assignment is turned in. I'm not exaggerating. This was the equivalent of a failing grade. I went to see my dorm proctor who worked at the admissions office. She told me that I had been admitted to Harvard for my personality, not my academic potential. Okay, two things. What the fuck do you mean it's impossible to. To get a C at Harvard? My first instinct was just. They're like, oh, everybody gets a bia because, you know. And secondly, you had been admitted to Harvard for your personality fudgeing. Bullshit. Bullshit. 1% of applicants get into that school. You're telling me you charmed them with A smile and a wink like, you're lying. It's. It's money, it's grades. It's your prep school. Like, what are you talking about?

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God. I don't know if you. In the outline I went through, like, throughout the book, she talks about all the people that she mentors, and she always talks about how this person stood out to me because they were so organized and they knew exactly how to talk to a CEO, and they had really thoughtful questions. And I looked up every single person that she named. Most of them went to Harvard, one of them went to Yale, and one of them went to Princeton. And I was like, right, so these people were trained by the school that you went to to know how to talk to people like you. I don't think it's impressive to mentor somebody who would have been a managing partner at Sequoia, which is a huge venture capital firm that she talks about, regardless of whether they knew you or not.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, 100%. And I think that is where it's interesting because this book is definitively written for white collar female executives and also white in skin tone. Like, that's just who it's for.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

On one hand, I'm like, yeah, that's the fudgeing problem with feminism. All books can't be for all women. All. All phrases about feminism don't apply to all women. We're not a monolith. So it's like getting specific. Good for you. On the flip side, this was written for all women and effectively only speaks to a small, small percentage of them and the ones who already have the most in life.

[Becca Platsky]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Which I'm just saying is like an interesting dichotomy. Like, it did move the needle in that moment. But the larger question is, was that needle actually being moved in a way to stab you in the back later on in a stronger and firmer angle? One other thing about Harvard she's wrote, since grades at Harvard Business school are based 50% on class participation, professors teach 90 minute classes and are not allowed to write anything down.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So they have to rely on their memory of class discussion. What the fuck is wrong with this school?

[Becca Platsky]

Most of these professors are probably 90.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And the whole premise of the book is like, how when a woman says something. Yeah. How that gets weighted against what a man says. Something. You're filtering this through your bias. Not allowed to write anything down. And I think the idea was supposed to be because, again, I messaged my friend, I was like, what? What good reason could there be for this? And it's that they couldn't unfairly wait the grade by some note they had taken.

[Becca Platsky]

But I feel like you're, you're operating on your memory, which is notoriously fallible.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, it's meant to eliminate bias in the student participation grade. Yeah. But it sounds idiotic. But again, it's like, you're Harvard. This was the way we decided to not have bias.

[Becca Platsky]

And I mean, I talk about this on my podcast all the time where it's like, Harvard is such a dumbass circle jerk. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but it is like, because what happens is they publish, especially in business, they publish case studies which end up being the gold standard and kind of like the facts of business. But they often only look for things that they have done that are correct. It's just, it's kind of like they know that they need to continue this myth that if, if you go to Harvard Business School, you're a genius and nothing that you can do is wrong. And, you know, it's like even little things. Like she's talking about how she's giving a panel at Harvard and she's like, you know, a third of you will be working in 15 years and 100% of that third will be working for the man sitting next to you. And I'm like, but so are you. You're working for a Harvard man, for.

[Chelsea Devontes]

A 23 year old Harvard man.

[Becca Platsky]

So she does all these things where she kind of like, she tells the anecdote that completely either is like hypocritical or goes against what she had just said a couple of paragraphs before when she bases it on research.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's, that's a really good point. And I think the good that this book did was a mainstream marketable with lean in with the power of Facebook, with celebrity marketable conversation about gender discrepancies in the corporate workforce and just basic stats. Like, when women don't do well, they blame it on an internal problem. When men don't do well, they blame it on an external problem or at the percentage of women who raise their hand versus men. All those things I think were really helpful just to bring into the conversation, to acknowledge, to start the conversation. I don't think the conversation we then had obviously was a productive one. Do we think that's a true statement?

[Becca Platsky]

Well, I, you know what I was just thinking though? You know, when you said like, this was marketable, I. That kind of clicked into something for me because one of the reasons why it was marketable is that it Offended nobody. This book didn't say anything.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

That was like, maybe the systems that are created are actually bad and also malicious. Instead, what she said was, men, you need to help women put out a hand. You know, bring them up, bring them in, bring them into your circle. And remember, too, especially remember, she's talking about white women who generally benefit from white male patriarchy.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Which is why they vote for Trump, because they benefit from that proximity.

[Becca Platsky]

And so I think it's it actually, you know, I don't know. It says we say it did good, but maybe it didn't because maybe it just made everybody feel like, oh, all women have to do is lean in. In.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And men need to help them lean in. And that's that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And the men were like, no, thanks. They were like, I don't think so. You're right. You're right. No, I don't know if it's a true statement. I the. The part of me in 2013 who read this and it was just nice to have some research stats about gender inequality at the airport.

[Becca Platsky]

Totally.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Right. That part where, like, the part I remember blowing my mind, the part I quoted to my friend was how often women raise their hand. And again, it just feels nice to be like, I am in control of my destiny.

[Becca Platsky]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The ways in which my life has been fucked over, I can get out of it if I am just, what, Less afraid. Which is one of the main lessons in the book. Don't be afraid. And it's a. It's a very woo woo message. It can bring you into many occult. Don't be afraid. Let me help you. And so that part, I still have this memory of, like, well, that was good that we started talking. But because she set up the parameters of that conversation, that conversation led us into hell. Therefore, was it actually, you know, shitty to have this book talking about fear? She. She really proudly quotes these posters in Facebook's offices as, like, things that are, like, really good lessons and really good ways that they contributed to their office environment. And the posters are like a cat is holding onto a thing that says.

[Becca Platsky]

Like, hang in there together, everyone achieves more. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And I texted a friend of mine who worked at Facebook during these early years who was the person who started their diversity initiative for, like, wow, how about not everyone's white? I said, man, I'm reading about these posters. That's insane. She immediately wrote back, quote, the journey is only 1% done. QUOTE nothing at Facebook is someone else's problem. Quote Done is better than perfect. And then she said, they Definitely brainwashed me. And those posters were around the office as, like, truly inspirational material.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God. Speaking of those posters, I thought that the rocket ship quote was Sheryl Sandberg. And the reason I thought that is because I have been in an interview at an office where it said, if. What was it? If you're offered a seat on a rocket ship, don't ask which seat, Just get on. Tag Cheryl Sandberg.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Sandberg.

[Becca Platsky]

And I. I don't think she ever said that. Wasn't actually my quote. It was Eric Schmidt's quote. She said it in the book, but it was largely attributed to her after.

[Chelsea Devontes]

She wrote that she's the new Abraham Lincoln.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontes]

People will have posters there. It's like, hustle Grind, you know, get it done. Abraham Lincoln. And you're like, are you out of your mind? We've covered a lot of those quotes. Actually, I think we started this bit on the podcast because we read the Girl Boss book, and she quoted Abraham Lincoln in her book with a quote. He never fucking said. Yeah, because the word hustle wasn't used in the year he was alive in the same manner of rise and grind culture. And she was like, yeah, Abraham Lincoln said, like, to succeed is to, like, work it, girl.

[Becca Platsky]

Rise and grind. Thomas Jefferson.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Thomas Jefferson. Namaste. You slay George Washington. Jim Carver.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one thing you wrote in your outline is that it became so clear how shitty her book was when she quoted a full passage from Tina Fey's book. And I also had forgotten how funny that Tina Fey joke is, where Tina Fey is making a joke about feminism, and she wrote, the definition of feminism is women are people. Not better, not worse. Equal. And if you don't agree with that, you're a crazy person. Or you're a man in a robe walking around your mansion talking to your 14 girlfriends. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. That's Hugh Hefner. She also had another joke that always makes me laugh. She said, tina Fey has quotes. So many quotes about Hugh Hefner. One is, feminists do the best comedy. Just ask Hugh Hefner. And another one is, if you can retain nothing else, always remember the most important rule of beauty, which is, who cares? Life is short. If you've got a body, then go ahead and show it. Unless you're Hugh Hefner. Okay, so anyways, did that joke, like, pull you out of the text or, like, what was it about it that got you?

[Becca Platsky]

Well, I. Oh, I listened to the book, so I ended up borrowing the audiobook. And it was.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Who reads it? Does she?

[Becca Platsky]

No, she doesn't. But the woman who reads it is very like, you know that millennial way of speaking where it's. And my life is kind of crazy.

[Chelsea Devontes]

That's how she read it. Oh, my God.

[Becca Platsky]

It was so like, yeah, I. I color code my folders still to this day. Why would they cast that way? It was so fucking annoying. And so when. When I heard her read something that was genuinely funny compared to the things that it was, it read a lot like Kimberly Guilfoyle book in. In the sense that, like, college essay or, you know, high school graduation. Merriam Webster defines graduate as. And it just. I think that it just totally. Yeah, it totally took me out. This book is poorly written. It was so condescending. That was the. And that was the tone of the narrator as well, which was like, if she had written this book and said, here's all the stuff that I learned in Harvard, and it's bullshit that they don't tell you because they should. Instead it was like, yeah, you're so dumb. You would never know this unless I told you. And that's why I sent you that clip from crazy ex girlfriend of a song called Women Gotta Stick Together, where the character basically, like, women's gotta stick together even if you're a dumb fat slut like that woman.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Each other. The truth. The truth is you're all fat sluts.

[Becca Platsky]

And that's called sisterhood. It's like, it's like, it really. Like, I'm not so weird. I'm not surprised because look at Cheryl. I mean, she's writing all this and then still being a complete tyrant monster according to New York Times Expose. And then this ghostwriter has written the words, there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women, but then is also being a Dick.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think 2012 feminism. This book has the misgiving of equality means you like your fellow women all equally, which is like, no, it's not between us. The equality on the table is your. Your liberties that are gender based. Like, it's equality economically. It is not equality. Like, well, she's a lady, so I need to be nice to her even though she rude to me. And I feel like this book also started that idea that, like, you are not a good feminist unless you help all of your fellow women, which is like, that's not what men do for each other. All men don't help all men. They help the ones that they went to the frat with and tell the same shitty Jokes as.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah, and like, I would say to Cheryl Sandberg's face, like, she's a billionaire. I don't think you can become a billionaire without being an evil, exploitative person, period. And does that mean I don't support women? I mean, what does that even mean? What does supporting women mean? I support people who have the same values as me. And guess what? Some women don't have the same values as me.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, judging by the voting metrics, I'd say possibly the majority.

[Becca Platsky]

I think we need to end that. Like, don't stop saying that in general. Like, just stop saying women supporting women. That. That's. That's crazy. That's gaslighting. I hate that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I know it's. But I. I think it's basically doing the same thing this book does, which it. The problem back onto you personally. It is how you personally treat women. That is feminism. No, it's not. It's the system we live in and the system you're upholding. That's the larger issue. And instead you're diverting it to be these tiny personal things that women are supposed to take on as, like, their own burden of, like, you're not being good enough. And this is why all women suffer, because you personally aren't being good enough. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. PayPal lets you pay all your pals like your graduation gifters. Who's paying for the mattress topper? You mean the bean bag chair? Aren't we getting a mini fridge? Can we create a pool on PayPal?

[Becca Platsky]

It lets us collect the money before we buy.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, yes, that's smart. Glad we can agree on something easily.

[Becca Platsky]

Pool split and Send Money with PayPal.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Get started in the PayPal app. A PayPal account is required to send and receive money. A balance account is required to create a pool. The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chevin at many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. This episode is brought to you by Pluto TV. Pluto TV has all the shows and movies you love streaming for free. That means laughter is free. With gut busting comedies like the Neighborhood Key and Peele and Ferris Bueller's Day Off Mystery is free with countless cases to crack from Criminal Minds Tracker and Matlock. And thrills are free with heart pumping hits like the Walking Dead and Defiance. Feel the free Pluto TV stream now pay never. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Okay, let me pose my fucked up question to you, what you just said, which is that, like, succeeding in a patriarchal, capitalistic society can't exist with, like, ethical behavior, change from within. You can't, you just can't do both at the same time. And so was Cheryl maybe just doing the best she could without making the decision to secede from this society and go build a new one? Is this actually the best someone had to offer in that year, which is just, hey, if you speak up more, maybe you can get the only seat at the table that we'll allow one woman to sit in. Which is exactly what you said earlier. Was this the ultimate act of evil? Setting up women to go running off a cliff circa 2018 when we finally got to the edge.

[Becca Platsky]

So I think that if Cheryl Sandberg was a woman who grew up in, you know, North Dakota, went to a community college and then a state school, and then got her way to be Google in Google, and she didn't have connections, and then this was her book that she wrote where she was like, how I did it. I was just fearless and I, I just went for it because what do I have to lose? Then I would say she did the best she could. But at the end of the day, Sheryl Sandberg is treated better than any woman. I mean, she has a good body, she's good looking, she went to Harvard twice. And for her to think that people don't treat her differently because she went to Harvard, I mean, she's kidding herself.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And so I think that she really benefited from so many opportunities that were specifically only given to her because of everything about her background. Because she went to Harvard, because she was a page in Congress as a junior in high school. She worked for the Treasury Secretary as a junior in college. For her to think that people aren't already giving her a level of credibility that is not afforded to 99% of other women. She's smart enough to know that.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And that's why I think it was ultimately evil. And I think one thing I didn't realize about Cheryl until reading this book is she's so political and she knows how these things are done. And she did economic research papers for Larry. What was his name?

[Chelsea Devontes]

Larry Summers. Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah. I'm like, that sounds Like a fake night host. Yeah, yeah. She knows these things. And that's the thing. Like, she knows too much for this not to be evil.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I think you're absolutely correct. And I will say the biggest benefit of the doubt I. I can give her in this movement, like, let's say I'm giving it my most graceful take, is that in the book, she talks about how she gave tons of leadership speeches, and then one time, someone specifically was like, what's it like to be a gal?

[Becca Platsky]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And she gave this one talk, but it went really well. And then when she did her TED Talk, I think it, like. I think it was literally like, TED Women. TEDx Women or whatever. It was literally like the women's duds. Tina. Her Tina talk. She made it about, like, why are there not more women in leadership roles? Which is the talk that goes well. And I think she was like, oh, my God, a brand like this thing that I didn't prescribe to. She admittedly in the book was like, I didn't. Feminine. Being a feminist was ugly and gross, and I wasn't one. Anyway, here's a quote from Gloria Steinem. When I changed my mind, I think she was like, oh, holy shit, culture has shifted. And now it's kind of cool to say things about ladies when you are a lady. I bet I could make a bunch of money. A cool brand, and it's positive. And I'm going to cash in and get my speaker fee because, you know, listen, she stayed at Facebook. It became very successful. But all those people get their. Their one book so that they can go on the circuit. And I'm sure this is what she was building on the side. And I think she thought. Saw it as like a. A. A cash cow, possibly. The way a lot of people. There's a lot of people who picked up that brand and said, this will be fun. Yeah. But mint, none of it, other than I want me to succeed. Like, there are some big comedians and actors and people who also harnessed this fake white feminism brand. And there's just like, six years where people had these huge hits, but all they wanted was, like, their own movie. And they're like, and I'm a woman, therefore my brand is feminism.

[Becca Platsky]

And that's why she failed, because it wasn't genuine. It didn't come from a place where she really believed it or she was really acting it. And I think that's where you really set yourself up for failure, because it's so seductive to get that book fee and get that speaker's fee. When it seems like you're the right person for the message or you're the acceptable person. She was very acceptable for that message.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And also, I, I, I'm sure, like, she was brought up in a culture that was like, if you got a seat at this table with all the boys, like, you're amazing. You're great. Who doesn't want to succeed? And so then her succeeding is like, oh, my God, I did it. Here's how I did it. Specifically, first step, go to Harvard. First step, Harvard, twice. You have this quote in there. I think it's from bell hooks. You said, Sandberg's definition of feminism begins and ends with the notion that it's all about gender equality within the existing social system. From this perspective, the structures of imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy need not be challenged. And she makes it seem that privileged white men will eagerly choose to extend the benefits of corporate capitalism to white women who have the courage to lean in. Which brings me to, I thought, the weirdest part of the book, which is a pretty thick middle section about women having families and children and giving birth and leaving the workforce. The entire message was, women need a seat at the table. Men need a seat at the kitchen table. And it's like, make your partner share the household work with you. And it's, it's a huge part of the book. A lot about, like, her husband was since passed, like, of being like, he's going to share the work with you. But all I could think is like, so do you really think everybody got a husband?

[Becca Platsky]

I know you think everybody got a husband.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, like, it has not even crossed your frame of mind that single moms exist, that dads sometimes bail, or that it's not your job to make him do the housework that's supposed to be on him. Yeah, Like, I was just like, wait, everybody married? Everybody gets married to a man. It was just really funny to me where I was like, listen, again. Like I said, not all books can be for all women. But she really did need to be like, hello, if you are not heterosexual and actively pursuing and attaining a monogamous relationship with a man of your stature. Book not for you. However, there was one little story she told. It made me laugh so hard where I was like, oh, you seem to not realize. You seem to not realize what you've written down. Okay. Oh, I just found the part where she says, now I proudly call myself a feminist. It's like, okay, cool. So brave. Okay, here's what she wrote. Christina Salen, the CFO of Etsy told me that when she was dating, she wanted to see how much a boyfriend would support her career. So she devised a test. She would break a date at the last minute, claiming there was a professional conflict, and see how the guy would react. If he understood and simply rescheduled, she would go out with him again. Other than what, violently bang down your door and call you a. Okay. When Christina wanted to take a relationship to the next level, she gave him another test list. While working in emerging markets in the late 1990s, she would invite the guy to visit her for the weekend in Sao Paulo. It was a great way to find out if he was willing to fit his schedule around hers. The trials paid off. She found her Mr. Rights, and they have been happily married for 14 years. Not only is her husband Daniel completely supportive of her career, he's also the primary caregiver for their two children. I wrote. Yeah, no, you were. Yeah, you weeded out all the ones who had a job and couldn't join you or.

[Becca Platsky]

Or, yeah, was single or. Or who had their own kids or who just wanted a free trip. Like. And again, like, extremely specific advice. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, yeah. And, like, sorry, now I have to just. I have to look them up. Christina said she's just gonna search to see how that marriage is doing. I just need to know. Know. Okay, I am back recording this after the fact to say that Christina looked this up and they. They have filed for divorce. And listen, I don't. I don't wish ill for anyone, but given that this is the example in the. In the Lean in book, I do think the Sao Paulo to divorce pipeline wasn't shocking. Okay, back to the episode, which is to say, like, when a man is a primary, a caregiver, like, fantastic. That's great. That's a great choice. It's just. It seems like she was saying, like, fun dating tips, gals, and it's like, no, these are. These are decisions about. Like, these are specific decisions one specific couple has made after she made them fly to Brazil.

[Becca Platsky]

Another really interesting thing is she just kind of dropped in there, and I didn't realize this, that she was actually married before her husband. That was the CEO of Dave. Yeah. And, like, I was like, huh? Like, like, that's an interesting thing to not talk about. What were the mistakes that you made? You know, you're talking about these mistakes, but you're not. I mean, maybe they had, like, a postnup where she wasn't allowed to talk about it, but I thought it was an interesting Detail to drop in there but not share at all about.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, yeah. And I, because I same, I was like, oh, this has been, you know, her marriage out of, you know, college or something. But she actually had a, a boyfriend before this marriage with Dave, who had a restraining order filed on him from an ex girlfriend. And Cheryl helped get the news about that squashed in the Daily Mail and kind of used Facebook's influence to do it. Now I will say I looked into it, and the woman who filed the restraining order is on record in the Guardian saying, I basically being like, I made it up. There was no restraining order needed. He was fine. To which I say, like, I'd love more information on that decision to change your mind. But I think it was like, oh, she wrote lean in. She'll look like a terrible woman if her current boyfriend had a restraining order on him for domestic violence. But you know what makes you look worse?

[Becca Platsky]

Squashing it in the press, lying about it. I know. You know, one of my favorite podcasts, business podcasts, is Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I love Scott Galloway's newsletter.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, he's amazing. And, and he said, CEOs or executive have lied more than Sheryl Sandberg, but no CEO or executive has lied for longer. And I was like, damn, that's a, that's an insane. That's like a very intense accusation.

[Chelsea Devontes]

What lies was he specifically like? Is he talking about her saying, like, yeah, we're doing something to protect your data while selling it off at Facebook.

[Becca Platsky]

A lot of the things that we have realized now that have been happening with Facebook for the past last eight years, even 10 years, you know, Sheryl Sandberg joined in 2008. Right. In Facebook. And a lot of the things, you know, we first saw the, the Russia stuff in 2016. So that had been going on for.

[Chelsea Devontes]

You know, for, for anyone who doesn't know it's Facebook gathering a bunch of data and giving it to Trump's campaign to wield against you. And also either actively helping or actively not doing anything with misinformation in the 2016 election, which can possibly directly be the number one reason why he won the election and the reason why none of us can have even small talk conversations till this day, which is that people live in a entirely different world of, of. Of what the truth is because they were fed the incorrect truth on their Facebook page.

[Becca Platsky]

Yep. Not to mention harmful content that has given girls eating disorders or boys eating disorders or any number of the, like, content decisions that they have made that have been Harmful.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

All these different things that Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg said, we got it under control, guys. And exposes have come out since then that said not only did they not have it under control, but they tried to hide evidence. They tried to, you know, make it seem like it wasn't as bad as it actually was. And so a number of lies that have just compounded and compounded and compounded. And then finally, you know, 2018 happened. They went in before Congress and everything kind of changed. On Sheryl Sandberg.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Because she took the fall for a lot of these scandals. I think she did it. I also think it was one of those scene from Succession where it's like, all right, Cheryl, go fall on the sword and then, you know, leave the company. I think something that was really striking to me reading. Again, I was going to say this book, but what I meant to say was your outline, which should be published on Patreon. And we might do it because feel free to. There's so many jokes in here, Becca. The one that's called are you my mentor? But one thing that. That really struck me and kind of goes back to like, what was she doing with this book? Is how. How they were always sellouts. And there was a way to look at Facebook with like, wait, they were doing inclusion, they were doing diversity. They were doing the posters she was doing in. Right. And then all of a sudden, or slowly, all of the sudden, he's standing behind President Trump at the inauguration giving quotes about how Facebook needs to be more masculine. You fudgeing idiot.

[Becca Platsky]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And dancing in a little sparkly blue onesie resembling. What was he doing?

[Becca Platsky]

He was redoing Benson Boone's in an ill fitting. Yeah. Onesie. I mean, talk about more masculine.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I was just like, hilarious. But it's like, oh, where did that switch come from? And it's clearly not a switch of. It was just in popular culture. Barack Obama had won the idea of, like, what we just said. Let it go. Hashtag. Me too. The Hunger Games. This is in, therefore, that's what we want. Oh, wait, it's not in. Okay. Fascism is tight. You know, all hail Trump. And just quickly switched. And then Mark Zuckerberg, you know, what am I doing? Mark Zuckerberg threw Sheryl Sandberg under the bus and said all the inclusivity DEI shit was her. Sorry, sorry, Trump. It was this icky girl, my icky. This icky woman who taught me everything who did that. And she's gone now. But in truth, I think if she was still there. She would have been behind them at the inauguration too.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah. I mean, and I also think. You know what's funny? There's so many things that Cheryl doesn't mention in the book. How about the fact that Facebook started as a way for sorry, loser nerd Mark Zuckerberg to rate women on his campus. Rate how hot they were.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

That doesn't feel very feministy to me.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No, no, this was always him. And it's also. It's. It's just so funny. It's always the ugliest. You ugly pencil eraser, pimpled little head. Yeah. On your little surfboard, being like. And. And making the degradation of women the foundation of a billion dollar platform. And it works because this is what our system was built for. To make money off of the backs of women while men stand on them.

[Becca Platsky]

And she talks about all how great it was at Google and how Eric Schmidt and Sergey Brin let her really own these business operations. Oh, but she fails to mention how the fact that Sergey Brin and Eric Schmidt were fucking girls in the massage rooms at Google. And there were massage rooms at Google.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I was gonna say. I don't know what's more shocking.

[Becca Platsky]

Wow. Like, wow. It's insane.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. And when you go back to that, it's like, yeah, what were you doing writing this? What were you doing writing this?

[Becca Platsky]

And that's like saying, she knew too much. She knew way too much. And, like, for her to not say that. For her to not talk about sexual. For her to say. To have the audacity to say, it's not fair that older men, bosses don't feel comfortable taking younger junior female associates out to a bar for drinks because they think it'll look weird, while completely ignoring the fact that people call early Google like a sex palace. And, like, they would literally just hire young interns for them to. And that's in a memoir. Like, that's not. You know.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And one of the most egregious passages in the book, I think is probably next to the one you just said where she was like, anecdotally, this lady I knew, you know, got a job with this great guy who really believed in inclusion and equality, and he was all about it. But in her negotiations, she said the words, as a woman, I should be making this amount of money. Well, he wanted to have a casual, friendly negotiation. But when she said those words, he knew he had to take it to hr, slowing down her negotiation process when it probably would have been great. So try not to bring up your gender and like gross the men out. I'm slightly exaggerating.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Of what is in there, but she really is like, that woman tanked herself by saying she was a woman and this man was going to be awesome about it. And what she could have said, you know what information blew my mind and continues to because I forget it all the time. HR is not for you. And listen, if you want to get into Patreon Comments. If you work in HR and you want to talk about this, I would love to hear from you. You. I just know and have personally witnessed times when someone reports something to HR and it's just giving the company and the person who did it a heads up and a way to respond to you to make sure that you can't sue. So when you go to hr, maybe they can help you. But also remember you are reporting it to daddy. And daddy. No like that. Like H R is used to make sure you don't fucking sue the company. It's not there to protect you.

[Becca Platsky]

You.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Which is good to know. So that you can report it to HR and also bring in multiple other protections for yourself because HR is not one of them. You need to be like, unionizing with your fellow women. You need to be creating records. You need to be talking to a lawyer. Like, HR is not for you. I always forget that shit, Becca. I'm like, well, this is wrong. Better take it in. And it's like, oh, I forgot. You are paid to ruin me.

[Becca Platsky]

Well, and right. And that's why we need unions. I mean, and this is what's so funny, right? Like the. That Elon and Zuckerberg and Bezos, what are they trying to get Trump to do? Dismantle the National Labor Relations Board? And that is one of the very last standing labor protections that we have in the U.S. yeah, they're fucking monsters. And they're ugly. Ugly monsters. Disgusting with terrible personalities.

[Chelsea Devontes]

If y'all are taking us back to south park humor that you cannot. You don't even have the skill set to do. All you can do is like some watered down version of like just saying something offensive and calling it a joke, then we are allowed to sit here and say, you are fudgeing ugly. And the fact that no one would fudge you and still doesn't want you. You is why you're doing this.

[Becca Platsky]

I. I think that one of the reasons that Mark Zuckerberg, like, we talked about this in a couple episodes ago. Like, what's his origin story? And I think one of the reasons is when he was doing the Cambridge Analytica Congressional hearing. Remember he had that weird baby bangs.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And he. He was looking like a little lizard person. And everybody was basically like, ew. Who would ever want to this man? And that's what changed him. And now he's wearing chains, and now he has cur. Long hair, and still nobody wants to you.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Oh, yeah. It's also like, you've been with the same woman this whole time. Like. Like, drop. Like, drop your boner. Like, what are you trying for? Also, yeah, it's. It's. It's really classic incel. Pipeline. Yeah, it is like, hey, guys, I created something bad. Okay, well, I don't want to you now. Okay. I'll kill you. Okay. I'll kill you. Okay. Let's talk about one more thing, which is that at one of these Lean in conferences that you put in the outline, Cheryl did an exercise with branded Lean in collab with blog her where women would. Would fill in note cards of what would you do if you weren't afraid? And they would. They would write in the answer, what would you do if you weren't afraid? Grade. And Cheryl's card says, I would write a book about feminism. And then underneath that, you wrote, I'd put a little poop in Cheryl Sanford's iced coffee. Just a little one. I'm not a monster. And then you found a Tumblr from this conference where people wrote what they would do if they weren't afraid. I want to read two of them. The one you put in the outline says, get that giant tattoo and not care if boys think it's ugly. Which is, like. It just makes me so sad. That was ever a thought. You know what I mean? I can't get some tattoo because guys won't like it. Like, I. I didn't grow up on that side of the track. So, like, I didn't even know. That was, like, something. I grew up around the men who were like, nice. Get it on your. So I didn't know that that was a thing. It made me sad. And then the one I sent you is this woman posed next to her tall, masculine son, and her little card says, if I weren't afraid, I would take my son on vacation.

[Becca Platsky]

And he's like, I would go on vacation with my hot mom. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I was like, what's. Oh, no. What's gonna happen? Are y'all gonna fuck? Is he gonna kill you? Why can't you. Why are you afraid to take your son on vacation?

[Becca Platsky]

That was wild. Cheryl, this lady wants to her son.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Conference. Okay. So as we're wrapping it up, Becca, just talk. Just thinking about, like, kind of the question at the very beginning or the fact, which is that, like, we didn't even bother to even attempt to even maybe think about creating a particle for a women's march this year.

[Becca Platsky]

Right, Right.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Why is that? Obviously, a million reasons, but what's. What's one that comes to mind?

[Becca Platsky]

Well, can I tell a story first? I would love that. That I. That has just been kind of, like, sitting on my. On my mind since reading this book. And it's just around this idea of, like, don't you want a seat at the table? And there is a billionaire that is mentioned in this book that over the summer, reached out to the corporate gossip podcast to try to do something with us. And in the conversations, we were just kind of like, hey, like, yeah, this guy doesn't really, like, stand for what we stand for. And I think it would look really bad if we were working with you. And the woman who was running the conversation basically said, well, don't you want a seat at the table so that you can actually talk to this person? And I was like, I don't want to sit at that table. I don't. I want nothing to do with that table. You want me at your table because I represent something to you that you'll never be able to have because you're a billionaire. But I. No, I don't want to sit at that table. And I think it's like this, like, myth that there's some table that if only we can sit at it, it. We can make change. And I think one of the reasons why we're not marching is it's like, the table isn't men versus women, ultimately. And I think that's one of the things that we realized is it's like the table is billionaires, like Sheryl Sandberg, who's just as evil as any of these people that I'm looking at next to her. Mike Pence, Donald Trump, Jeff Bezos, and the people who are sitting outside that office building.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The working class labor force, working class people.

[Becca Platsky]

And I think we realize, like, wait a second. It's all these other ways that we've been told to be binary. Women versus men, right versus left, all this. And people have been talking about this a lot this year, but I think we're realized. Like, I always. I have this weird, like, dream that one day soon, I'm gonna, like, link arms with, like, a reformed January 6 rioter and be like, wait a second, we shouldn't Be fighting. We should be working together and fighting them. And I think to me it's like, like, I, I don't know what, what even is feminism right now when there's this much bigger issue at play. Feminism is here. Fascism is up here. And I think we just all need class solidarity way more than we need gender solidarity at the moment. That's my, like, my first thought, I guess.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, yeah, no, and let's talk it through, because I've had similar thoughts. I was getting, getting my hair cut by my very good friend of mine, Olivia Scott Lane, and she said this joke that I caught on camera where she was like, you know, we've been fighting left to right when we should be fighting up and down, eat the rich. And I thought it was so funny. And I thought it was just like an important reminder dating back to even when segregation was ending, when working class white people and working class black people were uniting and middle class white people and upper class white people were like, oh, they will be more than us. Let's create rich racial divides and give poor white people just a little bit more than poor black people so that they remember racism and slip back into that and so that they cannot be divided, which just goes way, way back. And I'm like, right, right, that's what's happening. Nice reminder. I posted it and I got some comments being like, well, how can I not when those idiots voted for Project 2025 and Trump and all this stuff? And it's like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because I, I also don't want to go back to a 25, 2016, where the entire New York Times, every elitist conference was about trying to understand the poor working class white person and not being elitist. Why are they so homophobic and hate black people? I want to know. It's like, okay, that's. That can't be. That's. No that. Not that either. And so then we're left in this place, though, where really, really deeply the thing that has been hitting me the most is that, that we have to focus on the conversation in the people who are already here around us. Because even in this podcast comments, if we can't productively talk to each other while, like, disagreeing, and we get so splintered by certain words or phrases or things like, what hope do we have? And I think books like Lean In, I think all of these movements have, have been designed, or by accident to teach everyone a different set of rules so that you cannot have a singular conversation at the end of the day. And I think getting back to like, just like, how do we talk it through and make it happen? It's one of the basics. And it's gone.

[Becca Platsky]

Yeah, yeah. And, well, that's. I think I always. I'm actually quite optimistic, weirdly about the future.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I love this. Tell, tell me.

[Becca Platsky]

Well, I think that I'm really, so. I live in New York. I'm really involved in my, like, local community and mutual aid. And one thing that I'm really noticing is I think since the election have become a lot more community focused and community centric. And there's a thousand little protests or movements or marches every day, genuinely every day. And I think that's much better. And even like the little boycott that just happened this past week where people didn't shop at Target and Amazon and soon we might not have a choice because we're going to have a potentially a recession or some type of correction that's going to, you know, it's going to be rough. I'm optimistic, but I think I'm realistic in sensing that, like, we're going to go through, I think, some hard times. But I think I genuinely see us kind of looking at one another and realizing, like, oh, my God, my neighbor. Like, on my street, people voted for Trump. My specific neighborhood in Queens went red. But I don't really have a choice. Like, at the end of the day, like, if shit hits the fan, I still have to work with the people on my street to make sure that we have what we need. And I kind of see that stuff happening every day. And like, again, I'm in my very small, like, segment, but that's way more powerful to me than us going on.

[Chelsea Devontes]

To getting on a flight, you know.

[Becca Platsky]

Getting on a flight and going on the freaking pussy hats.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Taking the picture. Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

Not posting that on Instagram. And I think that's great. And I don't know, I think just people are getting smarter about the way that they're organizing. And because they're getting smarter, you're not seeing it as much. And I think that can be really confusing because you're like, why aren't people more outraged? But they are, they are. It's just that you're not seeing it and it's so important. If I could, like, leave one message, it's like, talk to your neighbors.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And you'll realize people are feeling and acting in ways that you don't realize that they are because you think that they're, you know, different than you or whatever.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Completely agree. I love this take. It is a more powerful activism because it's not performative because we don't have the energy. It's not because we all became better people. It's because the energy to post your thing with your sign, you don't have it. So you just really have to focus on what matters. And, you know, a lot of the movement, you know this best. A lot of the movements that created this Republican wave started really small, and a lot of them started in schools. A lot of them were. Do you remember the Tea Party? It was the Tea Party, like, going to, like, little school town halls where like five people were. And they were like, I'm the president now. And I think when you talk to your neighbor and get involved in your community, that's when that activism lights up. And I've seen it in our Patreon, where it's like, okay, curate your use of the Internet. If you have half an hour that you're giving to scrolling, where is that scrolling going? If you're listening to a podcast, like, what specifically are you listening to? Don't let them flood you. Go. You, like, go use the tools you have wisely. And Becca, I classically hate talking to my neighbors because I'm in entertainment, I'm writing. I just have no energy and I don't want anyone to look at me in my dilapidated pajamas. Was. And yeah, I started talking to all my neighbors. I was like, that's great. Here we go.

[Becca Platsky]

And has it, like, how did it feel?

[Chelsea Devontes]

It's been amazing. It. It. And. And it is also socially depleting in all the ways. I still. I think no one will believe me when I say I have a really big introverted side of me, but I get a lot of energy from, like, being alone and reading and working. So it's like, yeah, it, it's been fantastic. And we've already started that, like, mutual care on your street in just really small, nothing burger ways that were a lot more than what I was doing two years ago when I was just, like, racing down to work.

[Becca Platsky]

You will be able to sew what you make from those seeds, and you wouldn't be able to do that if you were posting on Instagram and putting that energy on Instagram.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Like, and let's be clear, I am still posting all the time. But. But, yeah, but, yeah, but.

[Becca Platsky]

You know what I mean? Look, so much of what we interact with we don't even realize was created by billionaires already. So a lot of the things that we're seeing are not different. They're just more obvious.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And so I think that's where we need to kind of just sit down and be like, okay, yeah. What would be the worst thing that they would want me to do? Talk to my neighbors, get along with people.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Get along with people. Yeah. 100%.

[Becca Platsky]

They want me to be isolated. They want me to sit on my phone. Like, I've been like, I'll be open about that. Like, I've been really struggling with a tech addiction, especially since starting my own podcast and TikTok and all that stuff. And it's been very difficult, and I've had to treat it like a proper addiction, where I'm like. Like, I'm using this compulsively. It's really bad for me. And the biggest motivator for me to kind of cut back on my tech addiction is knowing that that's what the billionaires want me to do. And I'm like, I'm not gonna give you a fucking inch.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And so every time I decide that I'm not gonna shop on Amazon, it makes me feel like I have power. Every time I decide that I'm gonna put down my phone when I'm taking my dog for a walk, and I'm gonna, you know, give a stupid little smile to somebody that's taking power back from them, because guess what? What? Nobody would smile at Trump genuinely if he walked down the street. Nobody would smile at Bezos genuinely if he walked down the street. These guys have to walk in their own bodies and realize that the people who act like they like them want something from them.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah.

[Becca Platsky]

And everybody else hates them. That's something that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, But I'm happy it's happening to them.

[Chelsea Devontes]

And that's why they have to walk in their own bodies down the Runway into their little spaceship and take their ass to Mars, because nobody fucking wants them here. Okay, Becca, let's do the book Dull Test. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Becca Platsky]

No.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No. Absolutely not. At one point, she talks about, like, this, like, nasty, cruel rumor being spread about her at Facebook, and she cries to Mark Cuckerberg, and then she's like. And then the headline was that, like, I had cried on his shoulder. And I'm like, this is what your book should be about. Also, what the fuck did they say about you? No, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Becca Platsky]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontes]

No. I'm a no. It was really entertaining in 2013, and this time, the most entertaining thing was that it was just more mid than bad.

[Becca Platsky]

Listening to it, I will say, was. Was very funny. I laughed yeah.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Becca Platsky]

Well, Chelsea, that's not a fair question, because it always does, because then I get to.

[Chelsea Devontes]

It doesn't count. Talking to me doesn't count.

[Becca Platsky]

Okay, fine. Ultimately, no.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Yeah, I'm actually a. Yes. Yes. I, I, I really do sometimes have, like, well, this is the system we live in. How do I improve within it? How do I use the system, you know, in my ways? And I think reading this was like, well, that is kind of what she said to do. And it failed furiously. And so it's really more about, like, breaking the system in small ways, seceding from the system versus, like, becoming the leader of it and making all the money from it, you know, know. Becca, tell everyone about your podcast. People here are obsessed with corporate gossip, but for anyone new, like, give them the spiel, you've got to go listen to Becca. She's so fucking smart. I'm putting this outline on Patreon if you want to read it.

[Becca Platsky]

Yes. This is a result of my research addiction. So I have a podcast called Corporate Gossip. I host it with my brother. We are the business podcast for Bravo lovers. So I think a lot of times, business information and business news can be really hard to understand, but it's really important that you do so. Especially now when we're entering the early stages of an oligarchy. And so basically, we take the business news and business stories. We kind of focus on one company every episode, but we present it in a way that's fun and juicy and gossipy because there's actually so much juice there. People be like, CEOs are just as messy as the rest of us, as.

[Chelsea Devontes]

The resty of us.

[Becca Platsky]

They really are. They're messy and immature and crazy. And we. We actually just did an episode a couple of weeks ago where we talked about Sergey Brin, his wife, Ann Wojcicki, who was the founder of 23andMe. We have an another episode coming out about the Charlie Javice Frank fraud trial. So this is a boss babe, 30 under 30, who scammed JP Morgan out of $175 million, to which I say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And I've been going to her trial partially just to observe, but also in a little bit of support, like, you go, girl. Scam his ass.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So funny. I cannot wait for that episode. Becca, I. I can't tell everyone how much everything you said is true. The podcast is so fun. I have always loved business books, but also impressed by them. And your Podcast. There's so much fucking juice. Like a season of Housewives almost has nothing against each episode that you do. And it's also just really, really, you make me smarter. And who doesn't love that?

[Becca Platsky]

Thanks, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devontes]

Thank you so much for coming on. Go listen to corporate gossip and also what is your Instagram so people can follow you?

[Becca Platsky]

Both Instagram and TikTok is at corporate gossip pod. And we also have a Patreon as well, where I'm putting, like, kind of weekly updates from the Charlie Javis trial, and then we do some bonus episodes over there.

[Chelsea Devontes]

So I love it so much. Also, when I was was m starting my small business, Becca, you sent me a book that is really hard to read, but I'm making it through. I'm making it through, but I'm. I'm bringing my business plan to you and I'm making you weigh in, and then we can boss babe together.

[Becca Platsky]

Thrilled. I'm excited. We're going to workshop it. We're going to brain brainstorm. We're going to Ideate girl.

[Chelsea Devontes]

I'm going to make capitalism my own Capitalism. Your best capitalism. My best future is capitol boss Chelsea. Okay, I'm having a stroke. Epileptic fit. Bye. Bye. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent at bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.