Sutton Foster’s Memoir Hooked (with Casey Balsham)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Sutton Foster’s Memoir Hooked (with Casey Balsham)
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Sutton Foster & Casey Balsham

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Introduction to Hooked: How Crafting Saved My Life

In this episode, Chelsea Devantez delves deep into Sutton Foster’s memoir, "Hooked: How Crafting Saved My Life," alongside her longtime collaborator Casey Balsham. The memoir, published in 2021, offers an intimate look into Sutton’s journey through fame, personal struggles, and the therapeutic power of crafting.

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Sutton Foster’s Early Life and Broadway Stardom

Chelsea begins by highlighting Sutton Foster's impressive career, noting her roles in Younger, Bunheads (created by Amy Sherman-Palladino of Gilmore Girls fame), and her acclaimed performances on Broadway, including originating the role of Millie in Thoroughly Modern Millie. Sutton’s transition from a Broadway star to a television actress sets the stage for the memoir’s exploration of her multifaceted life.

Notable Quote:
Sutton Foster reflects on her early career:
"I was 17 and was on Broadway. Even after struggling in my personal life, my career just... never stopped." [16:43]

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Navigating Personal Relationships and Marriage

The conversation shifts to Sutton’s personal life as chronicled in her memoir. Chelsea and Sutton discuss her first marriage to Christian Boral, a fellow Broadway star. Their relationship, marked by emotional distance and eventual separation, provides a backdrop for understanding Sutton’s search for genuine connection.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea questions the abruptness of Sutton’s proposal:
"Why would you cheat if you...?" [49:28]

Sutton responds candidly about the complexities of her relationships:
"It was a very painful agreement we had made. Shortly after we got married, we realized we wanted more from our relationship." [48:58]

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The Therapeutic Power of Crafting

At the heart of Sutton’s memoir is the theme of crafting as a means of self-healing. Facing panic attacks and social ostracization, Sutton turns to knitting and crochet, finding solace and a way to protect herself emotionally.

Notable Quote:
Sutton shares her coping strategy:
"I have to keep busy, have something to do. It's a form of self-protection." [18:26]

Chelsea relates personally, noting her use of work as a crutch:
"I always have deadlines because it helps me get out of situations where I have to be alone with my brain." [19:48]

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Complex Relationship with Her Mother

A significant portion of the memoir delves into Sutton’s strained relationship with her agoraphobic mother. The memoir reveals a mother who oscillates between fierce support for Sutton’s career and emotional neglect, creating a tumultuous home environment.

Notable Quote:
Sutton discusses her mother’s contradictory behavior:
"She'd dress up in costumes to hide from us, saying, 'You guys are annoying me.' But then she'd also say, 'You are the reason I'm alive.'" [20:39]

Chelsea emphasizes the emotional toll:
"It's such a dynamic, horribly abusive. It's... so intense." [21:28]

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Adoption Journey and Personal Growth

After facing challenges with infertility and a heartbreaking miscarriage, Sutton and her husband Ted choose open adoption for their daughter, Emily. This decision is portrayed as a healing step, allowing Sutton to embrace motherhood in a way that honors both her and Emily’s needs.

Notable Quote:
Sutton reflects on adoption:
"I wrote this book to understand my mother, so that one day Emily will understand me." [81:41]

Chelsea appreciates the open adoption narrative:
"Any adoption that centers the birth parents is a really positive experience." [80:28]

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Reflections on Memoir and Its Impact

Chelsea and Casey assess the memoir using the "Doll Test," evaluating its vulnerability, entertainment value, and life elevation. They praise Sutton for her honesty and the therapeutic nature of her storytelling, though they note that the non-linear narrative can sometimes be confusing.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea praises the memoir’s emotional honesty:
"Nothing bad will happen if I allow myself to be big. It’s a necessary reminder for all of us." [82:39]

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The Doll Test Evaluation

• Vulnerability:
  Chelsea: "I gave her a half. There's so much more she could give, but I loved it." [83:15]
  Sutton: "She passes my test." [84:07]

• Entertainment:
  Both agree the memoir is engaging and enjoyable to read.

• Life Elevation:
  The memoir provides valuable lessons on accepting oneself and one’s family, resonating deeply with both hosts.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Sutton Foster promoting her own podcast, Broadway Bitch, a platform dedicated to theater enthusiasts that promises candid conversations, games, and insider gossip. Chelsea and Sutton express their admiration for the memoir, appreciating how it blends personal trauma with creative expression through crafting.

Notable Quote:
Sutton encourages listeners to embrace their true selves:
"Nothing bad will happen if I allow myself to be big. You don't have to shrink." [82:39]

Chelsea concludes with heartfelt appreciation:
"You rock." [85:24]

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Key Takeaways

• Crafting as a Healing Tool: Sutton Foster uses knitting and crochet to manage anxiety and protect herself emotionally.
• Complex Family Dynamics: The memoir offers a raw look into Sutton’s conflicted relationship with her agoraphobic mother.
• Embracing Motherhood: Through open adoption, Sutton finds a fulfilling path to motherhood despite infertility struggles.
• Honest Storytelling: The non-linear narrative provides deep insights but may challenge some readers’ perception of Sutton’s life.
• Personal Growth and Acceptance: Sutton’s journey emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance and understanding one’s past to foster personal growth.

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Where to Listen

For more insightful discussions on celebrity memoirs and pop culture, tune into Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast available on all major podcast platforms.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the profound themes and candid conversations between Chelsea, Sutton, and Casey. For a deeper dive, listening to the full episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Sutton Foster]

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[Chelsea Devantez]

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[Sutton Foster]

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[Chelsea Devantez]

Thunderbolts take the world by store. There's some big right out there and you're going to help me stop it Us why You got some place to be on May 2nd.

[Sutton Foster]

Avengers, you're gone. No one's coming to save the day their time. I think we could be the people that are coming has come being the hero.

[Chelsea Devantez]

There is no higher calling.

[Sutton Foster]

Let's do this.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Marvel Studios Thunderbolts only in theaters May 2nd. Get tickets now. Rated PG 13. Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13.

[Sutton Foster]

Hey.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dive into all of the glamour and all of the trash. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing Sutton Foster's crafting memoir titled Hooked How Crafting Saved My Life, published in 2021. You know Sutton Foster as the star of the TV show Younger. You may also know her from Bun Heads. A little lesser known, it's from Amy Sherman Palladino, who did Gilmore Girls. And it's only one season, but an absolute delight to go revisit. Sutton is also a huge Broadway star. She has won two Tonys. She originated the role Millie in Thoroughly Modern Millie on Broadway. She recently starred in the Music man with Hugh Jackman, which we'll get into. And I'm very excited for her upcoming project. It's a celebrity memoir crossover. Sutton is going to play Loretta Lynn in the adaptation of Coal Miner's Daughter on Broadway. Now this book was absolutely not what I was expecting and I can't wait to get into it. But before we do, I should let you know I am doing a live show this Friday online. So listen, no matter where you are, you can watch it. It's on the 18th. Friday the 18th a few days from now, 5:00pm PST, 8:00pm EST. So it's, it's 5:00pm Pacific Standard Time. If you're on the Patreon, the video will start. You just click on in Man. Join the Patreon. You can join for free at first if you're not sure if, if you like it or not. You get so much stuff for just $5. Join the Patreon. We're doing a live show about what? Lauren Sanchez. There's some things that people gotta know. She is marrying Jeff Bezos very soon. That wedding is taking over culture and before it does, I need you to know who she is because Jeff Bezos owns the media now. So there's just about to be so many beautiful lies as they talk about this royal wedding. And listen, nothing like confirming the oligarchy with a royal wedding from two Americans, Jeff and Lauren. And Lauren Sanchez has been someone I've been closely following for a long time, since our episode on the View. Also, there is another celebrity memoir we covered that explains why Lauren keeps getting so many good Vogue write ups from one particular editor. We're going to get into all of that with fixing Famous People's Chris Derosa. There's a slideshow, there's some games. Bring a beverage you're going to need at 5pm on Patreon, depending on your, your time zone. Join now. Join Friday, whatever. All right, let's dive into the episode. My guest today is my dear friend Casey. Casey.

[Sutton Foster]

Casey. Nice to see you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Casey. Nice. It's Casey Balsham. Hi. Hi, Casey. Now.

[Sutton Foster]

Hi.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Everybody recognizes you. You've been a guest on this podcast many times and you did our very first live show ever.

[Sutton Foster]

I did. And we had a good time.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

I think the majority of people were hungover. Right. There was something that happened the night before where I think, yes, everybody was hungover.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It was the last taping of season one, Jon Stewart's show. And. Yeah, yes, that's right.

[Sutton Foster]

It was a full party the night before they continued to that live taping. We drank red wine. It was very fun.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It. Does Brook Shields memoir still haunt you?

[Sutton Foster]

I, you know, I look at her in a completely different light now. I go, and especially after I know me and you message, when that thing came out when she was like, they stitched up my vagina without telling me. And I was like, Chelsea, this woman has been through some stuff. Like when I once I saw that, I was like, brooke, Brooke, Brooke. Because it's like knowing everything. And then also then her doctor just gave her the, the, the Husband stitch. Not cool.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Without consent.

[Sutton Foster]

Without consent. The fact that they even call it the husband stitch is disgusting. Somebody that I know was telling me that. She was like, she's like, my doctor did it after my first kid without telling me to where, like, I can't even go through, like, a vaginal exam. Like, my doctor can barely get one finger in there now without it hurting. So, like, she hasn't been able, like, have sex with her husband without it hurting because they gave her a stitch. I mean, if there's one thing I know about sex is that my husband loves when I cry during it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

You know, they love pain.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I hope your friend is suing the shit out of that doctor.

[Sutton Foster]

Well, she had another baby and so I think she blew it out a little bit. Now she's good.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Jesus Christ. And Casey, you're coming to us live and pregnant right now.

[Sutton Foster]

I'm coming to you live, 20 weeks pregnant. I only have 20 more to go.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Here we go, baby. Halfway through. Well, this leads me to your bio, where you did an incredible stand up special about conceiving, and it was about how you couldn't conceive, and then at the end of it, you conceived. And this is now your second pregnancy.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, this is the second. And it's very fun because, you know, I very openly had my first daughter through ivf. And then you get pregnant again and people like, ah, yeah, this one's natural. I'm like, absolutely not. We made an appointment, we budgeted for it, it went on a credit card. This is absolutely. There was no sex involved.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Why do they think the second one is assuming it's natural when everyone has only aged?

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, I was like, no, no. Yeah, you're right. I couldn't conceive at 35, but once I hit the ripe old age of 43, my eggs started just being like, come at me. Yeah, no, I very much paid for the second one as well. Thank you so much.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I. Well, you know what? We love it. We love to hear it.

[Sutton Foster]

We love an expensive baby.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Here's the thing. Since this baby was so expensive, I want everyone to go and listen to your podcast because your new podcast is why we are covering Sutton's memoir. I don't think Sutton would enjoy this vaginal language. And if she tuned in, I do think she quickly tun. Yeah, that's my guess. But please tell everyone about your podcast, because it's an idea. That's so good. I've been excited about it for so long.

[Sutton Foster]

I am so excited about. This is like, it's finally you know how, like, you want to do something your whole life, and then for some reason, you're like, I'll just wait 20 years, and then I'll start it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

100%.

[Sutton Foster]

That's this project. I am a Broadway lover. I am a Broadway whore. Broadway takes all my money. I have 85 million cups. I've got. I'm swimming in Playbills. I love Broadway.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Save the Playbills. You didn't you, like, sign up to be a seat filler at the Tonys, like, every year?

[Sutton Foster]

I know. I've tried. It's so hard. I have tried every year to get to the fucking Tonys, and every year, I feel like I'm closer. One time I got to go to the dress rehearsal, and I was like, this is big news. So I was like, I'm starting a podcast so I can finally be invited. It's called It's Broadway Bitch, and it is a love letter to theater. But it's also not your typical Broadway podcast. I don't care how you started. I don't care what made you want to be an actor. I want to know sillier things. I want to play games. I want you to get into dirt. What don't you. You, like, tell me a show that sucks. Like, let's talk about the stuff that's gonna probably piss other theater fans off, but will be very fun, but it's.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Also all the goss. Right? Like I think you said to me, it's like, it's Andy Cohen for Broadway. It's like, what is the nitty gritty going on?

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, we're starting a little gossip. We're indulging in a little gossip. And so far, it's been so fun. I've had some amazing guests, and I'm truly just like, I'm having a ball. I love it. If you like Broadway at all, come on over, because we're having a legit blast. And I've been shocked at the guests that I've been able to get before the podcast was even out. It was amazing. It was amazing.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Tell us one name.

[Sutton Foster]

Well, one of my favorites, Drew Galing, who was in Waitress and who's been in everything, who has been, like, somebody that I've loved forever. And he was just like, yeah. And I'm like, holy shit. Jackie Burns, who was an Elphaba Josh Layman, who is currently in Death, becomes her on Broadway.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. Which I saw.

[Sutton Foster]

And the love of my life, Ms. Laura Benanti, said that she would do a remote podcast with me in June. And if I don't pass away before then. It will happen, so.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, very, very exciting. Well, and also, I am so excited you're here because this book had great tea, but not the full pour. And I know you're gonna have the other ends of the gossip that this book started but didn't finish. I found myself on Broadway chat boards, which are. Those places are a mess, dude.

[Sutton Foster]

They are w. Even just I'm noticing some of the clips I'm putting up on Tik Tok. People have opinion. Like, theater people are the wildest, and the. Like, they have stuff they want to say, so it's really fun. The message boards on Broadway World are out of control and ready. They're out of control.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm going to need you to reference them as we get into this. Okay, so first, the title of this book is Hooked How Crafting Saves My Life. And you did text me and you said, I'm nervous. I'm scared. I. I'm upset.

[Sutton Foster]

Chelsea. I got the book, and it was her with a blanket. And it was like, how Crafting saved my life. I was like, this is not what I thought it was going. I. I had no idea that the Sutton Foster memoir was going to be about crochet.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

I was knitting. Very scared.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Now tell me, because I had the same journey. I said, oh, I. Oopsies.

[Sutton Foster]

We've made a mistake.

[Chelsea Devantez]

We've made a mistake. However.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

How overall thoughts now that you finished the book?

[Sutton Foster]

Well, I texted you when I was halfway through to be like, I actually am loving it. I actually thought she was a very endearing person. She had a lot of little, like, just, like, one liner bits that I could apply to my own life. And I really, like. I went in with a preconceived idea of Sutton Foster just because there's a lot of gossip around her. And I left being like, I love her. Yeah, I love her.

[Chelsea Devantez]

This book was a delight.

[Sutton Foster]

It was a delight. Joyous.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That is really shocking for me to say, because this book includes recipes, and some of the recipes are how to knit a blanket and how to grow tomatoes.

[Sutton Foster]

And normally three pages on cross stitch.

[Chelsea Devantez]

There were. That's right. And not just cross stitch. It's like, how. Or maybe I forget all the stitches, but there's definitely, like, a. Here's how you make a baby blanket that says badass on it. And there's just nothing that could repel me more than that sentence. And I loved this book.

[Sutton Foster]

I know.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Loved it.

[Sutton Foster]

And if you think I'm not going to try to make those Cookies. You. You have another thing coming.

[Chelsea Devantez]

The bon bons.

[Sutton Foster]

Yep.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm also making the bon bons. We got to talk about the bon bons really quick.

[Sutton Foster]

And I'm making Boral's mom's cookies, too.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, we're gonna talk about that now. That's the first husband's mom. But the bon bons that Casey and I are talking about, I want to read really quick. And I decided, ooh, this is what I need. Every time there's a recipe, people are like, I went on a trip to France, and the salt in the air and the blood and the blah. And like, nine pages later, it's like, so here's how you make a fucking muffin. I don't want that. I don't want you to describe the ingredients to me. I don't want anything except the recipe. Unless you write what Sutton Foster did, which is this. My Aunt Marianne won the Pillsbury Bake off contest in 1994, when the grand prize was $50,000 and a full kitchen remodel. Fun fact. In 1996, the prize money jumped to $1,000,000.

[Sutton Foster]

I know, because it's also, like, who enters these contests and who wins? Like, you see these contests, you're like, nobody actually wins the Pillsbury Bake Off. And then there, she's like, no, my Aunt Marianne did. And here's the recipe. It's an incredible story.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, I need. I was like, I'm riveted. I'm in. I'm a fan. I've got to. I've got to buy. It looks like I've got to buy 60 Hershey's Kisses in order to make these bon bons.

[Sutton Foster]

So possibly some margarine.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, a lot of margarine, it looks like. So, okay, let's start at the very beginning and pull these highlights. Now, the book is not linear in any way, and there were times I was pissed at her because she would just, like, introduce a new husband in a sentence. And I said, is that it? And then in another chapter, she would go back and tell you the story. And I thrilled.

[Sutton Foster]

She did that with younger, too. Like, all of a sudden, she's like, then I was shooting younger. And you're like, I was still on bun hits, you know? And then she goes back and describes the younger years. She did do that. She kind of really would give away stuff before she let you know what was happening.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, and I think that is directly due. I don't know how to say this. The book was a delight, but I can't give the writing Any compliments? And in the acknowledgments, it's be. I think it's because she said, you know, when I told all my stories to my co author, my ghostwriter, and I realized I had written like a scathing tell all memoir. And I said, yes, give me that book. And she said, I didn't want to do that. I wanted a crafting book. And so then they decided on like 10 crafting pieces and then they tried to structure the stories, like through each crafting piece based on blankets. Yes. And so that's why it's like, like if this book was a blanket, this blanket, like, this blanket, like doesn't cover your feet and has like a hole in the middle. But still loved it.

[Sutton Foster]

This, this blanket you found in the trunk and you used it that year you lived in your car. Like, it was. This blanket has some stuff I actually really liked because I was so interested to see some of her heart that you notice, like, on the inside cover, the flap, that was like all her art that she was talking about.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, I'm stupid. And I just realized that I thought.

[Sutton Foster]

That was just like, like, look, the owl, the, like the flowers that are there, the circle pictures that she's talking about. Because my daughter, every time I was reading it, she would open it and point to all the. Like, she really enjoyed looking at that. She'd point to the bunny and say, hop, hop. Yeah, yeah. She. She doesn't say bunny. She says hop, hop. Which, you know, we're, we're working on.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I like that better. I go and find some pictures of her. So, like, this badass. We've. God, I can't even. I'm so this badass.

[Sutton Foster]

She talks about a tapestry. It's, it's. Yeah, she, she sewed something that says badass.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I did find like the photo of her standing next to it in her house. So I had all that and. Yeah. Okay. And I will now post the inside of this book on the Patreon as well. So we begin the book and kind of real quickly, she dropped out of Carnegie Mellon her first year. After her first year. And then she's starting the book because she has to give a speech at colleges that have given her honorary degrees at like, Ball State and like Carnegie Mellon's like, let us give you a degree. This is not important. But I spent like 30 minutes being like, isn't that embarrassing for the college to be like, you dropped out and are a wild success. Please can we give you a fitting degree even though you didn't need Us in any way.

[Sutton Foster]

I will say, when it first started off, I was like, okay, Sutton, we're already dropping. You know, when they awarded me. But she very much. Like, she very quickly becomes very, very likable. But, yeah, that is hilarious. And, you know, obviously, kind of a. Kind of a bummery reason why she dropped out of Carnegie Mellon because she was paying for it herself. But also, like, she has one of these stories that kind of annoy me where it's literally just like, I don't know, man. I just auditioned for Annie and I could sing. And then at 17, I was on Broadway. Like, there was. There's, like. It feels like even though she had struggle in her personal life, which I'm sure we'll talk about with her family, like, her career kind of just. She got on and she just never stopped. You know, it was kind of like, I did one year at Carnegie Mellon, and then at 17, I was just like, you know, in this show, and then I got asked, and then she played every fucking leading lady on Broadway for the past two decades. It's, like, insane.

[Chelsea Devantez]

There is definitely no. Like. And then I, like, didn't work for two years. And if that happened to her, it's just not in the book. And there's no. Like, I really wanted this, and no one would take me seriously. Like, she really is just, like, an amazing star. The end. There is one. So I immediately got on board with the crafting. Hardcore on board. Because what happens is that she's 17 years old and gets in the musical. It's not just Follies.

[Sutton Foster]

So. Will Rogers Follies.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Thank you. Which is wild because she's 17 and she's, like, in these, like, lingerie items.

[Sutton Foster]

She'S playing a showgirl and writes the.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Words like, I'd never seen boobies before. And I said, if you write boobies, you're not actually not allowed to have them.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. She was, like, so virginal. Like, so, like, people were asking about sex. What is that? I don't know. Like, it was just, like, she seemed very sheltered.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Let me go shimmy and shake on stage.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she's so young. She's on this tour, and it sounds like she was really annoying. And I say that as someone who looks back at myself as a teenager and is like, oh, wow, you were really annoying. And people. Her castmates were really mean to her. She was also the youngest, which makes you mad. She was extremely talented. And so her female castmates primarily were so rude to her.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That she has panic attacks. I mean, she's 17. This is, like, her high school now. And she turns to crafting as a way to be busy and not need to socialize. And when everyone's going out, having drinks, she can get excited because she's like, two squares into her blanket, and she's got to, like, finish her blanket. And I said, oh, this is me in books.

[Sutton Foster]

Totally. This is, I think, a lot of us with. With things. I love that she called it a form of self protection. She's like, oh, I have a project. Like, I don't have to socialize because I have something else to do. And I do think that's probably. Yeah, I think a lot of us look for. If we're in an uncomfortable situation, a lot of us look for a way to get out of it. Like, I mean, that's primarily why I wanted children, you know, so I could leave anywhere.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But, Casey, you love to hang and party. You're literally the most fun person I know.

[Sutton Foster]

I love a party, but as I've gotten older, I'm kind of like, oh, mama's a little tired, you know? But I. I do still. Even though I am somebody who is. I do thrive on social situations. I do still relate to this idea of being like, sometimes you just don't always want to be on. And it's nice to have a reason to not be. It's nice to. And especially, like, she said, she used it as a way because she was being ostracized. She was feeling left out. These. They were incredibly mean to her. She's like, okay, I am not gonna think about this. I'm just gonna knit. And, you know, that's a. Kind of a healthy way to deal.

[Chelsea Devantez]

With it a hundred percent. I. I really said, oh, wow. Like, if I had a crafting bone in my body, this would turn me into a craftsman. No, I absolutely use work as a crutch for me. Like, I always have deadlines because it helps me get out of situations we have to be on and go be alone with your brain. And I get it. And so, yeah, she learns to knit.

[Sutton Foster]

She.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She'll learn all the other. Every. Any, like, needle and, like, yarn thing she can learn. She. She's doing it, she's doing it. She takes it on. And then quickly, we also learned the other really huge piece of her life, which is that her mom was agoraphobic.

[Sutton Foster]

Agoraphobic. And also a little bit like this is. She had an interesting relationship with her mother, where it's like her mom loved her so much, but was also, like, so far Away from, like. It was like her mom stayed at arm's length. So would. Would, like, do things. Like, I wrote down. Like, her mom would dress up in costumes to hide from her children while they were in the house.

[Chelsea Devantez]

With disguise.

[Sutton Foster]

She was put on disguise so that the kids wouldn't talk to her. She'd be like, you guys are annoying me. And so she would put on a disguise. She also only said I love you to them twice. She's like, I. I only said I loved you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Her favorite weapon was silence.

[Sutton Foster]

Silence. The silent treatment. But then also turned around and told Sutton, like, you're the reason I'm born. Like, you are the only reason that I'm alive. So it's like she put everything into Sutton and into Sutton's career and, like, got her in every acting thing, pushed her for every job, but then was also, like, not saying I love you, and was, like, giving her the silence. It's so. It's so weird to be like. Because I think Sutton even says. And the thing. She's like, it's a lot of pressure to realize I was, like, the only person my mom talked to. Her and the s. Marianne.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Her mom's sister.

[Sutton Foster]

Her mom's sister.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. Sutton has a brother.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Hunter. Who gets awesome.

[Chelsea Devantez]

We're going to talk about. In a second.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes. But, yeah. So to be totally, like, push her daughter away, but also be like, you're the only reason I live. It's like, it's such a up. Dynamic, like, horribly abusive. It's. It's.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

And so this whole book of her being, like, I just wanted to understand her and the mother that she wasn't, even though the mother that I wanted her to be. And as a way for, like, my daughter to understand me, that was, like. That resonated with me so hard, really, you know? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just being like, this is the mother I have. She's not gonna be this other person. And like, Sutton realizing that throughout was just like, you know, and her mom did these wild fucking things.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I mean, wearing a disguise when she was a toddler. And Sutton said, why? And she said, because you were annoying. And I wanted you to leave me alone, so I didn't want you to think I was your mom. Why don't you think I was, like, some stranger in the house? Yeah, it is. It's so funny and so. So up. And. Yeah. She would walk in the room, be like, hi, Mom. And her mom just wouldn't respond. And then. But then there's these other moments where Sutton, as a kid sees Patti LuPone singing in concert on TV and she can't look away. And when she's done, she turns around to her mom and she said, what was that? And her mom goes, you can do that.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And it's just so easy peasy.

[Sutton Foster]

That's what she was like. So supportive.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But not because she's so agoraphobic. She never goes to see Sutton perform once. Once she gets on Broadway, her mom never goes and sees her ever, Ever. We're gonna get into more mom stuff, but that is a big part of the book and we will tap back into it. And what happens is that her family life seems somewhat okay when she's younger, maybe until about nine, but then again, you know, it's through a child lens. And then at some point her dad cheats and they. There's a huge blow up. And then they never divorce and they stay wildly unhappy and toxic. And Sutton goes to her school counselor because she knows something's wrong and she knows she's depressed. And the counselor is like, I'm not up there.

[Sutton Foster]

Like, I can't help you with this.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she's like, what? Oh, adults are such a letdown sometimes.

[Sutton Foster]

Also. And this is also in the face of they were moving around a ton. So it's like, I think that also, like, when you're a kid whose parents aren't stable and unhappy, whose mom is not leaving the house, and then also you're moving around and having to find these new groups of friends, like, that is hard on a Anybody.

[Chelsea Devantez]

It's interesting because she doesn't expound on it, but obviously that is the type of childhood that makes you say, you know what? I'm going to go on tour at 17 and never come home.

[Sutton Foster]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And there's a tiny little part before we go into the rest of the adulthood of the book where she said my nearest brush with anything even close to professional had been losing to a 13 year old Richard Blake on Star Search and making the final round of auditions for the 1989 reboot of the Mickey Mouse Club. I know I didn't get the part because I was too old and too tall to be a Mouseketeer. Yeah. And that like a Mouseketeer audition is in so many memoirs. I said, oh, my God. Every single child who auditioned for the Mickey Mouse Club was destined for fame because even if they didn't make it because one, they had talent and two, they had a parent who would drive you to the audition and that is what you needed to become famous in the 90s.

[Sutton Foster]

Truly. Truly. I was in Cal. I remember because I so badly, like, Kids Incorporated and Mickey Mouse Club were such a part of my childhood. And I remember, like, thinking, like, wanting so badly to, like, do that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm like, please make me a musketeer.

[Sutton Foster]

Please. I don't even know what Orlando is, but I want to go to there. And I just. Just. Yeah. A man. Man, my mom would have drove me to Orlando. Chelsea things. I might not be at the Mohegan Sun. I might be, you know, at the Win.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't know everyone at the Mohican Sign Performance Hotel. Oh, yeah. I've said on this podcast before, but I looked at a TV screen when I was three and I said, how do I get in there? And my mom said, you need an agent. And I said, let's go get one.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she said, no, like, you know, child stars turned crazy. And listen, I've read. I think I have read 285 memoirs at this point. And I still say to my mom, you missed out on millions.

[Sutton Foster]

I should have done it. I. This is what I tell Robbie all the time. Because I'm like, goldie could do something. And he's like, absolutely not. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, when she's 18 and she has, like a bucket full of money, she's going to be so thankful. I was like, put her in a gap. Give. Give her to the Gap. Make her a jean sew, a jean jacket to her skin.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I could be a lawyer right now, actually helping people. But instead I had to wait till I was 18 to start pursuing the arts. You could have gotten it out of my system and I could be planting trees across America right now. I know those are two good options for me. I should think about it.

[Sutton Foster]

Make a list. Chelsea. Pros and cons.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I actually told yesterday, the other day, I was like, I really think I should become a vet tech so I can help animals. And he's like, I say this with so much love. You would do so much damage and you're not actually helping. He's like, like, good points.

[Sutton Foster]

Chelsea's like, there's something here. They're like, ma'am, it's upside down.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. He's like, you know how you, like, look away and in thriller movies when there's a little blood? Like, what made you think, yeah, like.

[Sutton Foster]

You'Re not gonna be able to put down cats?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, he did. I actually. So here's what a baby I am. Casey. That was part of what he was saying to Me. And I was. And I was like, oh, I'm not gonna bring that up on the podcast. That's too sad. Like, I can't even say the words. That. That's part of the job. Like, I can't talk about that. Right. Dringo. There is a long page describing a dog's death in this book. And listen, the reason why I hate that in memoirs is because I'm a baby and I love animals, and it's hard. It's hard.

[Sutton Foster]

That is hard.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay. Wow. Well, okay. But planting trees is still a veil.

[Sutton Foster]

All right. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay.

[Sutton Foster]

Seeds. Easy enough.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Let's talk about Hunter.

[Sutton Foster]

Let's talk about Hunter.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Now, Hunter and Sutton are pretty cool names for how odd her parents seem to be odd in that they're very trashy.

[Sutton Foster]

They. Yeah, she's like, we grew up with, like, you know, ketchup, spaghetti, and, like, liters of Coke, and they just smoked cigarettes all the time. She's like one of those. Like, I don't think I ate a vegetable till I was, like, in my 20s or something. But, like, yeah, Hunter and Sutton are very, like, kind of.

[Chelsea Devantez]

They're just, like, fun, quirky names.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not like Trisha or. You expect. Like, when she describes her mom, you're like, your name should be like Danny or Trisha.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, I. I feel like when she describes her mom, her name should be like, Mary Alice Elizabeth, because her mom is really so. Her mom is so prudishly Christian, but also not Christian in any way. Like, they don't go to church. She doesn't talk about any of the good things that are in the Bible, but instead, she's like, sinning. Don't have sex. Don't have fun. We love God.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, I guess you're right. She could be like Mary Christina Elizabeth or something like that. Yeah, yeah. See, I read that as, like, when she's like, everything was covered in smoke, I just am like, oh, that's somebody named Lexi. That's somebody who should be called, like, Lexi and Tommy or something. I don't know. I don't know. Well, that's a Chelsea, if I ever heard Chelsea. But Hunter and Sutton, yes, they're very kind of, like, prim and proper. Like, you're right. They're just. They're kind of, like, classy and fun and.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, I was shooketh. Now, I know you were not shooketh because you are a Broadway baby, but. Yes, I'm sorry. A brother and sister Broadway star sibling duo. At one point in the book, they're Both nominated for Tony's. When she's winning her Tony, he's in the chorus. I was just like, wait, what? That is so much talent.

[Sutton Foster]

When she was in Anything Goes, she was doing Anything Goes, and he was doing you're in town. Or was it Millie? She was doing Millie and you're in town. They were both the leads, and they were both doing a Tony performance at the Tonys. And it's also kind of. That's another thing that she kind of brushed over. She's like, oh, yeah. And then, like, Hunter moved, and then he was on Broadway immediately. And you're like, neither one of you guys had, like, did either one of you struggle to get your Equity card?

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And also, like, your parents at this point have, like, they're supporting you verbally, as in, like, go be a star, but they're not driving you. There's no finances. There's no love.

[Sutton Foster]

The mom's not even talking to Hunter.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. So let's talk about that. So Hunter gets a girlfriend named Jen who becomes a wife who's in the book forever. Like, forever remains. Love it. She's still there.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

One time, when they were performing in some review in Vegas, Hunter sent their mom a picture of him and Jen at the pool. And Jen, being a dancer, was in a thong. A thong swimsuit. And her mom said, I will never speak to you again. Because that is unchristian.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. And then they lived together, and she was like, absolutely not.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Her mom used Christian terms to be abusive and, like, punish people for, like, sin, but didn't actually hold those values. She just wanted to punish Hunter. I mean, cut her son and his wife off, didn't go to the wedding.

[Sutton Foster]

Ripped up the invitation and mailed it back.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Now, that's a lot for an agoraphobe.

[Sutton Foster]

That's.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, unless she made the dad do it. Unless she said, I've ripped it up. I found an envelope. I put it back in. You're gonna walk to the mailbox. And her mom was so, so intensely suffering that after her mom passes away, her dad sees a neighbor, and they're like, how are you doing? And he says, my wife passed away. And they said, you have a wife? They lived there 20 years.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. But also that she didn't go to the doctor for, like, years. Whereas, like, had she had done that, they could have possibly helped her sooner. Sutton said one thing about the mom where she kind of said, like, I don't diminish the pain she felt. Like, obviously, her mom had a whole host of demons herself, but she was like.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But we.

[Sutton Foster]

We were punished enough, which I thought was really interesting to be like, because here's someone that you could see that this woman, she's like, my mother's broken. And she talks a lot about coming out of, like, the web of her mom's, like, beliefs and things like that. Like, because a lot of the mom's up beliefs, some of these are Christianity things. Yeah. We're deeply rooted in Sutton until she's like, oh, I don't have to be held. I think she says, like, I'm not going to be held hostage by my mom's beliefs anymore.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And she said it took her nine years in therapy. And I said, that's. That's right. That's. That is. It is. I mean, you're just so susceptible as a child that it takes so much to see your parent clearly, especially if they're emotionally abusing you. Which leads me to this next moment in the book where one of her first art pieces is creating something called A Shattered Girl, where she's, like, breaking up mirror pieces, but it's like a self portrait. And. Yeah, Casey, I cracked a mirror, and I made my own art piece. I wrote about it, my own book. I called it Shattered. And I said, oh, no, you did it. Yes, I did. Yes, I fudgeing did. And mine was about, like, having a lot of dads, but also none and being shattered by it was like, when I found out I was like, daughter conceived of 14. And I was like, I am shattered. And, yeah, I glued glass pieces to one of those cardboard poster boards from the grocery store. And Sutton did the same thing. My note was, oh, no, all of us.

[Sutton Foster]

All of us shattered girls with theater dreams shattered. She found a piece of wood behind, like, a dumpster and was like, art.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. At least she found wood. Much better for glass than poster board. Yeah, art and art, kind of. So she's like, I'm crafting, I'm working. And she auditions for Thoroughly Modern Millie, which she auditions. There's, like, six auditions. She wants it so badly. And she gets a phone call, and they said, sutton, Thoroughly Modern Millie has gone to Aaron Dilly. And I said, well, yeah, Aaron, I'm sorry, your name's Aaron Dilly? Like, yeah, you're gonna be the star of Thoroughly Modern Millie. Like, this rhyme has. And Sutton gets a role in Les Mis on Broadway and turns it down to understudy Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[Sutton Foster]

To be in the chorus.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, yeah, to be in the chorus.

[Sutton Foster]

And.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And utter study. Right.

[Sutton Foster]

I mean, I'm assuming, because, yeah, she did have to end up filling in. Yeah, but she was just like, I'd rather be like, then take a lead. I think she was. What was she offered? Like Eponine or something like that? She was offered one of the main three girls and like, no, I really feel strongly about Millie.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she's like, I just want to be in a new show doing something, like, really cool and fun even if I don't get the role. Okay, so then this is where I need you, because I'm gonna read this on page 60. So Aaron has gotten sick and she has to go in and understudy and play Millie. She said. Friday morning, I was getting ready to go back into rehearsal and was on the phone with Tom, her boyfriend at the time, when I heard the call waiting beep. It was Michael Mayer, the director. Sutton, there's been a change. Aaron is leaving the show, and the role of Millie is yours if you want it. I clicked over to Tom and said, I'll call you back. Back on the line with Michael, I tried to make sense of this news. What happened? Is Aaron okay? On one hand, I was thrilled, but I was also worried about Aaron, and I didn't want anyone to think I was vying for her job, especially her. I was bawling when I went to see her, slightly terrified by the news. She, meanwhile, was serene and kind. Honestly, she was trying to console me, and I said, but what happened? Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Did you know you can give yourself an eyelash curl just by using the tips of your fingers and pressing your eyelashes upward? This is especially helpful if you have finicky eyelashes. And my favorite mascara of all time is Thrive Cosmetics Liquid Lash Extensions Mascara. It has five different shades. It doesn't have clumping, smudging, or flaking. And it comes off really softly and gently, which is really nice. It looks like lash extensions. Thrive cosmetics makes certified 100 vegan and cruelty free products. And Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes with every purchase, including domestic violence, which is a very important cause to me. Go get your liquid Lash extension mascara and discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics, Luxury beauty that gives back. Right now, you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com glamorous for 20% off your first order. Hey there, travelers.

[Sutton Foster]

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[Chelsea Devantez]

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[Sutton Foster]

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[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode. And I looked it up. The Broadway boards are going nuts about Aaron Dilly. Like, she was fired then. Yes.

[Sutton Foster]

I don't, I don't know. Is that what it said? I didn't end up looking this one up.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I read it and I said, why are you crying to her if she's leaving the show? The message board said everything from like, oh, she wanted another role, so she was fired, but they let her pretend it was mutual to like. Yeah. So I don't know what happened.

[Sutton Foster]

Well, here's the thing here. You know why I don't know is because we've never fucking heard from Aaron Dilly again. I don't know what an Aaron Dilly is. I've never seen an Aaron Dilly. I couldn't tell you any of Aaron Dilly's prior shows because the thing is that, like, Aaron was sick and so Sutton had to cover. And I think she covered like, these major things in front of, like, a lot of the people involved that probably were like, oh, this lady is a star.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, she's the better Millie.

[Sutton Foster]

And she's the better Millie.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't think Sutton, like, had the heart to write that in the book because that's clearly what happened.

[Sutton Foster]

It feels like the unspoken thing. It's like, you don't go in during, like, put ins and during Tech week or like, during the major parts of the show in front of all the investors, all the producers, in front of everybody, and be Sutton Foster, be amazing at it. And they're not going to be like, we fucked Up.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But what's wild is that. I mean, she did seven auditions. Sorry, six auditions. Like, it's like, but she was nobody.

[Sutton Foster]

But she was. But. But the thing is, she was still nobody. I know. And I think that was the whole thing, though, is that they did take a chance. But it's like, I don't know. I mean, it still happens on Broadway. There are still, obviously, like, we give people chances and things like that. But I think that was the whole thing, is that all these people were like, you're going to go with an unknown. Granted again, Aaron Dilly, maybe she was something at that time. Like, who knows? That was what, like almost 20 years ago or something like that. But it is very interesting that. Yeah, she's like, I just felt bad. And it's like, well, yeah, like, you were. But you were better. Yeah, like, you can't feel bad.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She said like, no, I still wish she had actually talked about it, though.

[Sutton Foster]

Because she might have in the first version.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I think she did. And I. I mean, Thoroughly Modern Millie makes her a star. And not only is she a star and just doing that role, it's perfect for her. The show becomes wildly popular and there's a huge marketing campaign that they put behind her to make her a star.

[Sutton Foster]

And she was like, 25 at the time.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, she's 25. Because she'll win the Tony for it, I think. At 27.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. And you know what's so interesting about this time in her life too is that again, this is like one of those stories where she's like, I just didn't know I could sing where she's like, I fully had, like, no training. Like, she didn't even know how to not blow out her voice. Like, she was like, I did the Rosie O'Donnell show and I couldn't even do the run through because I was like, if I sing it once, I'm not going to be able to sing it on the show. Like, she didn't even know how to properly use what she had. So it's like, it. She truly was just like this natural talent who had no. Like, she had no professional. She's William Hung. She had no. I have no professional training. And she didn't.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, you know what I mean?

[Sutton Foster]

I'm just saying the sentence stands for itself. But I just was like, you f. Like, that's one of those things where I go, you. I was like, you just could sing like that without any training and, like, and then didn't know how to, you know, Like, I just, I just, I Couldn't. I was flabbergast when she's like, I was still, like. I didn't know how to not blow out my voice. Because there is rumors that. So Sutton recently, not only the Music man, but then right after that, she was in Sweeney Todd and then Sweeney Todd and Once Upon a Mattress, basically at the same time, which is, like, crazy. Like, Once Upon a Mattress went up at New York City Center. New York City center does these, like, short stints of, like, old classic, like, kind of musicals that never really had their big heyday. So basically, she was learning to be the lead in two shows at once. And I saw her in Once Upon a Mattress. I saw her in the Sweet Charity Revival. And I've seen her in maybe, like, one other thing, but I didn't see, like, any of her heyday performances live besides, like, you know, on YouTube. And I was telling my friend, I was like, she's funny. She's so physical. She's got great comedic tim. She can carry a show. But there's these numbers. Cause Once Upon a Mattress is like, one of those shows, like everybody does. In high school, I famously played the role of Emily. I just literally, I'd gotten a whole costume change to walk in behind one of the characters, and she goes, that's enough, Emily. Like, I was a maid. And then I just walk off stage. And it's my dad's favorite role I've ever had. But I was like, she didn't sing those numbers. Like, I wanted them to be sung. And my friend was like, she has fully blown out her voice during Anything Goes. And that was a long time ago. So, like, these shows that she's been in, she can still sing, but it's not like she's not belting like she did before. This is the, you know, rumor around town is that that's okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You were telling the story, and I was like, what is the rumor? What is the rumor? And the rumor is she's not belting like she used to.

[Sutton Foster]

The rumor is Broadway. That's a big deal on Broadway. If you are supposed to be singing the 11 o'clock number, that is supposed to be belted, and you ain't belting. That's big news. This is. This is what the message to my friend was. I go, listen, I loved her. I must I. She was great. But she wasn't belting. And she was like, she can't belt no more. Idina Menzel gets this a lot. Like, people always say, you can love her voice. You can hate her voice. Because if you listen to it, you're like, it sounds different than anybody else's. But also Idina Menzel. I have a friend that dated her personal assistant, and I guess she was like a big cokehead for a while, allegedly. Which I don't understand how you can be a big cokehead and be on Broadway. Like, it's gotta wreck your vocal cords.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And allegedly, we have to say, she allegedly maybe did that. Unsure. But I gotta tell you, I think it makes more sense that you would be a cokehead. I mean, eight shows a week, That's a lot of shows. I'm sure you do need some cocaine. As someone who used to perform eight shows a week myself, but my power was red wine, as is all of ours. You know, it turns some people up and it's me, and it turns most others down.

[Sutton Foster]

So, yes, this is Broadway gossip, Chelsea. Broadway gossip. When a belter can't belt, huh? It's big news.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, Sure, I guess. Okay, so back into the book she is going up on.

[Sutton Foster]

She's going up when she could belt.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. Okay, so she's going up on Broadway. Yes. She's in previews. It's 2002.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Our 911 to purpose pipeline is that now that 911 has happened, her mom will literally never ever come, ever live. So she's going to be 25 years old, making her Broadway debut. You know, all over town, her face is on buses and her mom never goes to see her. 911 is also mentioned in this book no less than eight times. And right around here, this is. Gosh, this is only going to speak to such a niche amount of this audience, but I'm still going to do it. When she started talking shit about Ben Brantley, I wrote, you fucking loser. Yes, Ben Brantley. Little.

[Sutton Foster]

So she gets rave reviews from the modern Billy. And this was the time. So I just had somebody on my podcast, we were talking about how Ben Brantley.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wait, will you tell everyone? Yeah, tell everyone who he is. Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

Ben Brantley was the New York Times theater critic, and basically he was the make or break man when it came to Broadway shows. Like, I was talking to this actress, Julia Murney, who was in the Wild Party, and like, they got rave reviews everywhere else. He gave them a bad review. Show closes. Okay, so she's getting reviews from Millie. He gives them a bad review. He criticizes her teeth in the review, which is like such a crappy thing to show.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, he apparently.

[Sutton Foster]

He had a problem with my voice with my teeth, which is like such a. Like, that's what you had to get her on was her teeth. It's a. It's infuriating.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Maybe if you're in the front row, most of these people are going to be seeing the show from the back. Ben, this ain't. This is not a make or break. Yeah, he. I mean, he was taught to me as a young theater student as, like, the end all be all of taste. And I'm so mad at him because I filtered my perception of a lot of shows I could never afford to go to and never saw through his perception, which is elitist and icky and wrong and bad, which is like.

[Sutton Foster]

He's like, one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast. Because theater can be so fun and it's so silly, and there's so much. And people like that do reviews like that that are just so uppity make it feel like theater is untouchable for people to see? And it's not. It's not. It's not something that people can't access or enjoy. But when you read a review from.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Somebody like that or be gossipy about and fun and.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Or like, it's also like, can a show just be like, I just. It's fun. Like, yes, there's good shows. Yes, there's bad shows. And I get. As a critic, like, your job is to nitpick, but, like, just use regular words. Stop using words nobody understands. And don't talk about her teeth.

[Chelsea Devantez]

As a critic, your job is not to nitpick. Your job is to understand art and talk about it in a way that elevates it for the audience who wants or not does not want to see it. But, like, your job. We don't care about your fucking opinions if you are Ben Brantley. Okay, so sorry, everyone, for the Ben Braille at this point, everyone's like, should. Should we keep listening to this podcast?

[Sutton Foster]

He's gone, by the way. We have. We. They have two. They have some guy named Jesse something now that all. Jesse Green, who also is kind of lame. And then they have, like, two now. But you know what? I'm gunning for their jobs. Give me those jobs. Because I'll just be like, see it. Go see it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So the people are loving it. Ben Brantley's hating it. And then her mom. The only way she can stay in contact with her and Hunter. And Hunter, who she's no longer speaking.

[Sutton Foster]

To by, like, reading reviews online.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So her mom is living on the message. You know, she had a name and was. And was creepy crawling. Writing comments.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And she would call Sutton up and.

[Sutton Foster]

Say, like, oh, you were off tonight, or something like that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, she would, like, yeah, she'd be like, I heard you were off tonight. Or I heard this happen because, like, yeah, I wrote it on the message board.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So Sutton, you know, feeling overwhelmed by this, said I vowed to stop reading reviews and asked Christian, who we're going to talk about in a second, to block the message boards on my computer. I begged my parents to do the same, but my mom insisted it was her only way to keep tabs on me and Hunter. Mom, I said, exasperated, why do you want to read horrible things about me and Hunter online? Her mom replied, they don't say horrible things about Hunter.

[Sutton Foster]

I know, I know. Such a dig. Meanwhile, again, she's still not even talking to Hunter. Sutton is the only daughter that she apparently was born for. You know, like, this is. Sutton is her whole life, and she's just, like, so oddly cruel.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so now let's talk about Christian. So Christian just kind of appears. He is her first husband. Christian is an atheist. Okay. I really. I don't know why she didn't pull that in. Christian is the first atheist she's ever met. It blows her mind. She's like, what do you mean?

[Sutton Foster]

This is Christian Boral, huge Broadway star.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. And they are together. They get married, and then the chapter about him. And she's like, I've also had some, like, failed crafting projects. And she's like, like this hope collage, these cheesy muffins, this crocheted cardigan. And she lists each failed project with. And then a few paragraphs below it.

[Sutton Foster]

It just says, my first divorce. My first marriage.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, it says, number five, my first marriage. No paragraphs.

[Sutton Foster]

No paragraphs.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Don't set us up for that.

[Sutton Foster]

Then I know.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so then later in the book, she's like, I still make the cookies that Christian's mom taught me to make. Make now with my new husband, Ted. And you're like, wait, that was all in one sentence. I still make Christians moms cookies recipes. Yeah, with my new husband, Ted and our daughter. And I said, ted, okay, you've got your ex and your new husband in one sentence. We don't even. I haven't even met the new husband. And then later she said, christian and I had been separated for six months, and we were both dating other people. This was a very painful agreement we had made. As shortly after we got married, we realized that we both wanted more from our relationship because they said they started.

[Sutton Foster]

To kind of be just more like roommates.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Friends, like, kind of instantly. And then, yeah, there's a page six mention about her and Christian and an article saying that, like, Sutton Foster's role in the Hay is going to ruin her marriage, which was, like, a reference to the musical she was in. And then she says, I'm not going to tell you the tea on my marriage. And then below, kind of the last sentences, we tried couples therapy. I wanted to fight for our marriage, but. But Christian had already fallen for someone.

[Sutton Foster]

Else, who was Laura Bell Bundy.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes. So I knew you would tell us the story. Please give us the tea.

[Sutton Foster]

So, okay, this isn't. Maybe this is a better rumor for you, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I know it is, because I already kind of know this one, and it's going to tie into her cheating on Ted with Hugh Jackman.

[Sutton Foster]

Okay, yes. Well, there's a rumor about Sutton Foster in general that she has hooked up with most of her leading men, which kind of. Yeah, I mean, if you. If you think about it, she dates Bobby Cannavale, who was leading man. Christian Borrell was leading man. So the affair that apparently they claim happened. And again, reading this book, my thoughts are changed. I highlighted the part where she's like, nobody cheated. But Christian Borel was famously in Legally Blonde, where he started to date his co star, Laura Bell Bundy, who played Elle Woods. She was in a musical with Roger Bart, who she apparently cheated with. But Roger Bart's also, I think, pretty gay. So we're kind of confused as to what's happening there, because I know friends who have friends that are men that have hooked up with Roger Bart. Maybe he's on both sides. Maybe Sutton. Maybe Sutton Foster is just that person that can swing men because Hugh Jackman also, we have heard, is bisexual. And.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But then it's like, then there's nothing. Here's what I'm saying. Like, if you are bisexual, then, like, then, yes. Then why is it such a big deal? It is only a big deal if you're just like, I do not like this one gender, and then you are with that gender. Or if you're just like, I'm straight, and then you're not. Like. Like, I think speculating on someone's sexuality kind of ignores all of the consequences our society has created for being open about your sexuality, whether you're famous or not. Like, even a surface consequence, if you are famous, like, male actors who have come out, have had their careers damaged, their momentum, went away altogether. I mean, just think about Ellen coming out on her first sitcom. And so I just. I really only think Your sexuality matters if you are lying to your partner or baiting the public with lies. But if you're being yourself, like, who cares? But yes. Okay, please, please continue the hot Goss story.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, so she apparently was having an affair with Roger Bart at the same time that he was having an affair with Laura Bell Bundy. And I do think that his got a little more traction because they were like, you know, they're. I think they were more, like, photographed together.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And, of course, a huge musical.

[Sutton Foster]

It was a huge musical, and they were, like, together afterwards, and it was kind of. It felt very, like, in the face. And also, like, Sutton had kind of become, like, this Broadway sweetheart, and it's like, oh, how could you cheat on Sutton Foster? But apparently, you know, they both were.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Doing things, reading this book. It sounds like they immediately. They got married, realized it wasn't gonna work. They open up their marriage. So it wasn't cheating. They were still married, but they were open. She could have been with whoever. He was obviously okay to be with Laura. They're still going to couples therapy, which truly moot point. Like, why have we even set the appointment? And in couples therapy, he's like, I've already fallen for Laura Bell Bundy. That feels like the transgression. But specifically, that rumor took off so hugely that when the rumors that became true about her and Hugh Jackman came out, my first thought was, how could you do this to your husband when you know what it's like to be cheated on with a showmance? But it sounds like they were open.

[Sutton Foster]

So the rumor is that her husband was not a nice guy.

[Chelsea Devantez]

This is the second husband.

[Sutton Foster]

This is Ted.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, wait, can we wait for this till we get to that part?

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, of course.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay.

[Sutton Foster]

Of course, of course.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So that's the Christian.

[Sutton Foster]

I understand what you're saying. Like, why would she cheat if she.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yes, but now we're going to get to that. Okay, first, we have to talk about Bobby Cannavale.

[Sutton Foster]

We have to talk about Bobby Cannavale.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Bobby Cannavale gets the dirty dog treatment. She. She's like, I will list every detail. This piece of who wronged me.

[Sutton Foster]

Really does. He really does.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He did a number on her.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, because there's a part where, like, something was going on with him, and she basically was, like, ready to quit everything to take care of him. And then she gets really sick, and she's like, he didn't do anything for me.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He didn't show up to the hospital.

[Sutton Foster]

He. Yeah, he didn't take care of her at all. Like, she got sick. Like, he was just kind of, I think, down career wise. Right. Wasn't. Was there just something like she was working, he wasn't, or was he actually, yeah, she.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She's, you know, her star has only grown throughout her life, and she's. As soon as this breakup happens, she's gonna be filming Bun Heads, which is. Is Amy Sherman Palladino's follow up project to Gilmore Girls. She's gonna be the star of it. So it's like a huge. Even though it only went one season is a huge deal. And I listen. The memoir gods have spoken to me. The memoir science has risen. I think I have an exact theory on Sutton's love life, and I want to just pull out a thread here with Bobby and. Because then we're gonna weave it in with. With the next two men in this book.

[Sutton Foster]

But. Okay, Bobby.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Bobby. It was like the hottie star.

[Sutton Foster]

A hot. Because she was. She was like, looking for something different to do. So she does this, like, play where she's like a dominatrix. And she had done, like, she done Millie, she did Anything Goes, she done Shrek. Like, she had done kind of all these musicals, and she was, like, looking for something different, which, like, led her to this play that then, like, led her to tv. So it was like she was in this, like, kind of sexy role, meets this, like, stark sexy man.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And he's had, like, TV and film fame and. And I feel like even though Christian Borrell is a big Broadway star, he's not like, I. I couldn't recall his last name. He didn't really pop in this. Those ways. And he doesn't have the presence that Bobby Cannavale does. And I think very prudish. Christian Sutton, who was kind of afraid of sexual things, doesn't act sexual. Like, called boobs. Boobies in the book. Rushed into a marriage with Christian because it was like, well, that's just what you do. And was just so shocked by what a relationship is.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She loved his family. She wanted his family.

[Sutton Foster]

He had, like, proper mom and dad. We're all gonna dance in the kitchen. And I think, like, I think when you don't grow up with that and you have somebody that has that, that. That becomes, whether you want to admit it or not, a reason why you want to stay with that person, you know, like a person for that. So it's like, yeah, like you said, she's like, not sure what a relationship is, but also, like, she was in this relationship with somebody who she loved, but also, I think was Very attracted to this, like, family life.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then I think it's sort of like, oh, wait a minute, like, you're supposed to maybe enjoy sex or, I'm still very young, and I have crushes, and this isn't fulfilling. They divorce. I think Bobby is sort of like, oh, my God, Like, I'm dating, you know, the. The high school basketball star of acting, you know, and it's like this hot, tumultuous. He's toxic. He mistreats her. All those things that you get into usually in relationships when you're young.

[Sutton Foster]

She implies that they're, like, boning a lot.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Lots of Boney.

[Sutton Foster]

Lots of boning.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And then. Yeah. And then he's just sort of like, oh, like. Like, you're sick. And you're also successful. And it's annoying to me. Also, you want kids, and I don't think I do. It's over. Bye.

[Sutton Foster]

Bye.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I love that she just full names them, all the details, because she's not really like that with anything else in the book.

[Sutton Foster]

No. But she really lets Bobby Cannavale have it. And I have heard rumors about him in the theater scene. He's, you know, married to Rose Byrne, and I didn't know that. Yeah. He's married to Roseburn, and they have a kid, which is so funny. So when I read this whole thing. Yeah. That he was like, I don't want kids. And she was like, therefore, I have.

[Chelsea Devantez]

To break up with you.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. She's like, I don't know if this is a conversation I'm ready to have or. I don't. I. I don't know how I feel. But, like, the fact that. That's so definitive for you and I. And he has a kid. He has. I think they might have. They might have two. I know they have one, for sure.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And he already had a child, and he was like, I don't want any more. It's like this huge part of him and Sutton's relationship, only for him to be like, oh, I'm with Rose. Let's have another kid. And I'm sure that. Yeah, I'm sure it was right for him, but very painful for Sutton.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah.

[Sutton Foster]

And I had. I have heard that he's a little bit of a dirty bird still.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So interesting. Okay. Allegedly a dirty bird, which is vague, but allegedly a dirty bird for whatever allegedly you think dirty bird means. Casey, you are really on this beat. I love it.

[Sutton Foster]

So we have to just think that maybe Sutton was talking that way because she knows.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, sure. Well, she Does Bun Heads. It's her first TV experience. This is when she is making her tapestry that says badass. And then page 126, I said haunting. She says. In the fall of 2019, I was back in New York married to Ted, and our daughter Emily was just about to start pre kicking. The seventh season of Younger was slated to start in March of 2020. And I had just been cast as Marianne in the Music man opposite Hugh Jackman. Life was pretty freaking great. And I said, gasp, that is her husband and her next her affair all in one paragraph.

[Sutton Foster]

Do you also know that I went back as she's talking about these performances? So I went back and I watched like the Millie Tony performance. I watched the Anything Goes performance from the Tonys. And like the first person that they cut to in the audience is Hugh Jackman and his wife clapping. So they've been friends forever. But I just thought it was an interesting. Because this is obviously how many years ago. This was like 10 years ago, 15 years ago when she was in any Anything Goes. Yeah, but you know how like, you know, they do a performance and they cut to people like clapping and they cut to Hugh Jackman and that was how many of her years ago, which is also made me gasp in that same way.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay, so now we're gonna talk about Ted and Hugh and then we'll. And then we're gonna finish the book.

[Sutton Foster]

So. Okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

She meets Ted not long after Bun Heads and she's like, I'm 38, I want children, I'm looking for a partner. And this is when Ted enters the picture. And obviously hindsight is everything. But now knowing that, that she left that marriage for Hugh Jackman, there were a couple things that stood out to me, which is that when she's still in this marriage writing this book, he didn't sound that great. He sounded like a really solid option. In a moment, she thought she was out of options. Like, I'm 38, I want kids. This seems good. Bobby Cannavale was a dick to me.

[Sutton Foster]

She was kind of like in her butterfly out of the cocoon air. Like, she had gone from living in New York for so long to moving to LA and really realizing that she, like, liked the weather and liked this space and made herself this like badass art studio. And I think at first remember she said she wasn't like ready. Like, she basically gave him like a two hour window during the day that he could like take her out. But then for lunch, and he did. And then I think they had like a really great time and continued. And then it was kind of like, once she was like, this is a kind man. Which I think after you date somebody that obviously is a turd burger, like Bobby Cannavale, and you're just like, find somebody that's nice to you. You're like, I think I like this. And he was in the, you know, creative field, but in a different way.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He was a screenwriter. He wrote Ocean's Eleven.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. And then I think, yeah, you hit that point of your. Like, when you're aging, you know, and you go, I need to figure out what's happening with my eggs.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Right.

[Sutton Foster]

Because I think I do want to be like.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You want children.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But it did. Even in the book, it sounded like a little bit of a subtle. And I don't want to broadly paint these details as, like, they always mean this, because I think in a different love story, if you said, we went on five dates and hadn't even kissed, I would maybe you could be like, oh, you were taking it slow and so healthy, and now you're in love. Yay. But in this instance, I was like, oh, you. You're 38, horned up for kids. You're on date five, and neither of you has bothered to lean in.

[Sutton Foster]

And she talks about the proposal that, like, he proposed her at this. Really.

[Chelsea Devantez]

The next thing. I was gonna talk to you.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Like, she. Like, he.

[Chelsea Devantez]

He.

[Sutton Foster]

She's like, he proposes, like, I forget what. She's going through something.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Mom is really sick. So basically, because her mom has agoraphobia, her mom has let this giant tumor grow to the point that it's out of control because she won't see a.

[Sutton Foster]

Doctor because it was just on her leg, and she was just covering her leg. She just wouldn't let people see it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And so by the time she makes it to the hospital, it's too far. And her mom is so mean that she doesn't want Sutton there, and Sutton has to force her way in, and Hunter has to come back, and her mom's yelling at them all. She's smoking cigarettes as she's like.

[Sutton Foster]

Like, you know, she's like. She's, like, boarded up her windows. She's, like, peeing in her bed. It's like, yeah, she's gotten to a very rough spot.

[Chelsea Devantez]

A rough spot. And she's there with her mom as she's dying, even though she has, at this point, untangled herself from a lot of her mom's emotional abuse, but she's still showing up for her. And in the middle of all that Ted's like, let's go out to dinner. And she's like, okay. And he's like, let's walk. Actually, you know what? I have to read it. Okay. 155. Okay. So they go to dinner, and Ted comes from Hollywood royalty. His maternal grandmother was Marianne Nixon, a silent film star. And he's like, can we walk to the Hollywood Walk of Fame to see Marianne's star? Yeah. And he's lost until finally they find her star. And she's like, this is great. You know, like, I'm tired. My mom's dying. My feet hurt. Like, I'm so upset, upset. And she said, my feet are throbbing. It's 10 at night. And for anyone who doesn't know Hollywood Boulevard, not fun.

[Sutton Foster]

It is gross.

[Chelsea Devantez]

So aggressively disgusting.

[Sutton Foster]

It's like, really badly nasty.

[Chelsea Devantez]

All, like. The hair on your arm stands up when you walked on that street. You're just like, be on alert. It's not a good place to be. And Ted has brought a bottle of water and pours the water over the star and cleans it up because this is a disgusting part of the city. And then the next thing she knows, he's down on one knee, looking up at me, and he proposes like this. Do you want to be married? What are you doing? I repeated. I had heard him, but wanted to make sure I understood what he was saying. I have a ring, he said. He pulled out a little worn leather patch from his pocket, and inside was his great grandmother Emily's ring. I think I said, of course. But I was so caught off guard and, frankly, confused. I knew I wanted to marry him, but I was such an emotional wreck. All I could think as he tried to slip the tiny platinum and diamond heirloom on my finger was, why is he doing this now? I now realize he wanted to propose at that difficult moment in my life. He wanted me to know he was there for me. I didn't have to hide anything from him. He loved me. At my most vulnerable and scared. Back home, we drank a bottle of wine by the pool. Ted was excited and giddy. I was still in shock. That night, we called his mom, who knew he was proposing because she had given him the ring. I was still processing everything that was happening with my parents and decided to wait to tell them. I finally call my brother. He was surprised when I said I was engaged. Well, congratulations, he said. He hadn't met Ted yet, but he knew I was crazy about him. So.

[Sutton Foster]

It all kind of is, like, flagging stuff where, like, she's like, oh. Now looking back, it was because he wanted me to know that he was there for me. But I'm sure that after they divorced, she's like, looking back, that was a pretty selfish move.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And I, you know, like, I want to actually talk about proposals just for like a hot second. It's this like one sided thing that matters a lot for your relationship as a whole. But like one other person doesn't get to participate in it. And I just think it's kind of, it's, it's expectation setting in ways that's like, can be difficult so that I think 90% of people don't have the perfect engagement story.

[Sutton Foster]

That's how I feel.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And Casey, I know you know this.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. I mean my, I, I joke about this on stage, but Robbie proposed on like the last day of a 10 day trip. It was like, will you marry me? And then we just headed to the airport. It was, you know, like there was no celebration.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. But he was like, oh, but we're in Paris, right? So we did it.

[Sutton Foster]

We're in Paris. But he had already told me, like, I'll never propose on a trip. He goes, I always am on planes and I see couples coming back from trips and the girl's pissed because she thinks that somebody was going to propose. But at this point, we had been going out so long that, like, that like he knew my contempt for the fact that we weren't engaged yet, you know, and all these things.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, you were doing long jokes about it on stage.

[Sutton Foster]

We were. And we were already talking about having a baby. I was like, yeah, I tell this joke too. I'm like, dude, you knew me for four years before this and we've been dating for seven years. Like, what? Like you know me. And he's like, I know, that's why I'm having a hard time. He's like, yeah, no, I know. That's why this is taking me so long, because I know you. But then I also like, people shared this thing the other day that was like, woman slips ring description into husband's pocket. A year later he proposes with the exact ring to me. I think that's gross. Okay.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Why?

[Sutton Foster]

Because I, I, I don't know. I just, I think that like being like, this is exactly what I want and it has to be that, like, there's something about that that I also don't like because then it takes away from like you're saying, like, it feels like a one sided thing. Like, yes, you should get what you want. But I don't know I just think there's something kind of gross to me when a woman, like, setting, this is exactly what I want, and this is what you better get me.

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's so funny. I. Here's the thing. I. I don't know. I think that's great if that is what your relationship needs. Like, yeah, that's what I think. That's what bothers me about proposals and that, like, it is this sort of cookie cutter design designed, I don't know, years and years and years and years and years ago. And that design doesn't really fit love anymore, and we haven't made updates to it. And if you are the type of woman who's going to look down at your ring and if it's not what you. You want to a t you're gonna be mad about it your whole life, then you should write the thing on a paper and give it to him.

[Sutton Foster]

True.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I think you should do whatever is going to lead to, like, supreme happiness. And while I love my engagement story, I also love to plan. I love an event. And I like, I like to be.

[Sutton Foster]

I like to be able to be right. I like to be a part of it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I like to, I like to take my trauma and look out for anything that could go wrong and make plans for all of it we've talked about. Yeah. Because I had told Yasser, I was like. Like, when we first got together, I was like, ugh, never propose in our house. Like, that. Just like, it disgusts me when couples were like, in their. In. In the kitchen. In the kitchen. I was like. I was like. And that was because I had never truly been in love and known what it was like when you love someone in the same space and how special that space becomes because I had only lived with losers.

[Sutton Foster]

So it taints you.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, we had this. This, like, truly gross, disgusting couch, but we fell asleep on that couch so many nights together in our little one bedroom in West Hollywood. And I, Yasser always falls asleep before me. So I. One year, I just decided to take a picture of every time it happened. And on his birthday, I posted like 170 pictures of him asleep on the couch. But it was so sweet because he was often, like, holding my feet or, like, reaching out to me half asleep or like, like, you know, and then you can see when we get our first dog. And so I changed. I changed in the relationship, but I had said that one thing offhand seven years before, and so now it's quarantine. And he's like, I guess I'm gonna Gotta take her on, like, a hike because we can't go anywhere because everything's closed. But this said, she'll kill me if it's inside. We don't hike, Casey. When have we ever gone on a hike? And I'm like, oh, man. If I had been a part of that process, I would have said, dude, on the gross gray couch, like, that's. Yeah, that's, like. Has so much of our love on it. And. Ew, gross. That is where so much of our love story took place of. Just, like, this time, you know, we don't. We don't even have furniture to have, like, desks. And so we work on this couch. So anyways. But that's where I'm like, I want to be a part of it. I want a plan, okay. To tie this back to Sutton. I want to give this story grace. Because I don't think, like, not everyone has, like, a perfect engagement story because of whatever.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

But reading this, I said, red flag.

[Sutton Foster]

Red flag.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You shouldn't be shocked. You shouldn't be like, wait, what?

[Sutton Foster]

I think it's like, as a partner who loves you, you should kind of be able to read the situation a little better and be like, she's a little distracted. This might not be the time to take her to my grandmother's thing, away from her family, where, like, clearly, she's dealing with some.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Put her through an engagement, which she will not be able to enjoy because her mom.

[Sutton Foster]

I can't enjoy it. You can't enjoy it. I think that's Chelsea. I think that's, like. Because you want to enjoy an engagement. It's giving.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Woman trained for the marathon, and man steps in her way to propose before she makes time.

[Sutton Foster]

Does that happen?

[Chelsea Devantez]

That's what. Yeah. Ran a fucking marathon. And he was like, I'll propose at the end. And she was like, okay. Well, I was gonna place and finish my marathon. There's also another time where a woman's running a marathon and a guy sends the kids out. Out to, like, hug her, and she bats them away. She's like, get.

[Sutton Foster]

Oh.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Like, I'm finishing the last mile. And it's like. Like, both people matter in the engagement. It's not just one person. Both, you know? Anyways, so I looked back on this. I said, oh. And he just seems, like, fine. And he's toast.

[Sutton Foster]

He's white bread. He seems like a very regular person.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. You know, he is an artist, but he just. They just don't seem. You don't, like, feel the sparks off the page? No.

[Sutton Foster]

Even in the, like, stories that she tells where he's like, he said the exact right thing and you, like, read it. You're like, it just kind of sounds, like, really easy.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, it sounds like Bobby Cannavali wrecked you and the followup has a lower bar. She said, he had the four Ps. He was patient, he was persistent. He picked me up and he always paid. And I said, said, I don't like these.

[Sutton Foster]

I was like, what four P's are these? I.

[Chelsea Devantez]

First off, patience. Well, that sounds like you're not ready and this is a timing thing and he should just go away. Persistent, honestly, on the wrong guy. Now you're a stalker. I don't, like, I don't want persistence in my romantic relationships unless I've told you. So he picked me up, I guess.

[Sutton Foster]

Man, I don't know if that's like, he picked up my spirits or like, he actually, like.

[Chelsea Devantez]

No, I think he, like, came to her house and was like, I'm gonna pick you up for the date. It's like, I guess. And he always paid.

[Sutton Foster]

And he always paid.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Okay.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. These are not a set of rules anywhere else. Yeah, these are not four P's that anybody else. Anybody else does.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, so, okay, whatever. And then tying that back to how I have a totally new view on her and Hugh Jackman, where I'm like, he definitely blindsided his wife of what, like 26 years? Because her friends tweeted about it and. And they were like, well, she's gonna be in the prime of her life now, so. I don't like that. I don't like he cheated. I. I don't like that he cheated. I now can see this world where Sutton never knew what sex was, never could explore herself, never felt like had to make signs telling herself to be badass.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Kind of settled. Then meets her true equivalent. She is the star of Broadway. He is the star of Broadway. They can in sync. They're both hot. They look so good. It's an age appropriate affair. I don't know why I'm so jazzed about that. I'm like, he's 56, she's 50. Like, that's. Wow, what a revelation.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And they had a showmance. And now I'm like, wow, I really see how you guys did this. And I see how he is like the football star she never got to be with because she was awkward and knitting and unsocial.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. And people didn't like her. And, like, she was just kind of like this. This string bean Girl who was like, yeah, just kind of like odd man out, brought men home to her parents, and they were just like, weird. But so I guess the thing that I have heard floating around the ethers is that. Oh, we got another rumor. Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Can Ted not belt?

[Sutton Foster]

Ted can't belt. Since Anything Goes, he can't belt. Since Ocean's Eleven, he can't belt. But no, apparently there. There were some rumors that he was not very nice. He maybe wasn't. Which, you know, like, again, like you said, I think just not like her equivalent, like. So I interviewed this woman, Nikki Renee Daniels, who was in Once Upon a Match with her. I was like, you know, you've been a lead. Sutton is your lead. I was like, is there pressure to kind of bring the cast together? And she's like, well, Sutton Foster is the nicest, kindest woman I've ever met in my entire life. She's like, she is beyond kind. She teaches aerobics classes. Her energy trickles down, which is, you know, like, after you read all these things that she went through and you hear her talk about how she tries to be kind, you know, how she tries to lead with that, and she's like, is succeeding in that. So apparently, maybe this guy, compared to Sutton's energy and, you know, aura is. Is not. Is not matched. But I guess her and Hugh Jackman have been friends for a long time. They've known each other through the community. Like, there's pictures of them backstage at Thoroughly modern Millie together 20 years ago.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Called him her best friend.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah, so what they did during the show was they used to sit every day before the show, sit in the dressing room together and just talk. They would just talk about their lives. They went on vacation together with their families. So her and Ted and Emily and then Hugh Jackman. Hugh Jackman and his wife and their adopted children, they all did a vacation together.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Wait a minute. I'm sorry, wait, let me go back. So Sutton adopted her daughter. Hugh Jackman's children are adopted as well?

[Sutton Foster]

Yes, yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, so they have that in common.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes. Before all this, you know, when they would talk about each other, they were just gush about each other, like saying just how much respect and how close they were because they would literally just sit on the floor in one of their dressing rooms before the show and just like fully have these deep conversations, getting to know each other. So then it comes out from people that were on the show with them, apparently, like it was not a very well kept secret. Like, there were days when they were all over Each other backstage, just making out, kissing, loving on each other. And then there were days that before the curtain came up, they were on opposite sides of the stage sobbing because they couldn't be together. But also the thing is, is that what broke Deborah's. Deborah Lee Fernand. This is his wife. What broke what? This is the straw that broke the camel's back. Because apparently Hugh is bisexual and she okayed him to have relationships with men and he fell in love with Sutton Foster, and that was what she wasn't okay with because obviously he fell in love.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, you gotta follow the rules of your open marriage if you have rules to them.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. So he fell in love with Sutton Foster, and so that's kind of where it draws the line. So they obviously get divorced, rumors are flying, and she files for her own divorce. But yeah, apparently backstage they were like. It was just madness because some days they were just like on fire, and other days they were just hysterical because they were. They couldn't be together.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Fairs are so. Honestly, so annoying.

[Sutton Foster]

I know. Especially when you're dramatic people in general.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Oh, and it's a showmance and you're singing and. But like, look, you know, and you're starring together, but like, every time, like, it's an affair. It's like the. The emotions of. But we can't are like what's making you horny? And that's so annoying to me. I'm just like, you got. You have to understand that this isn't your love. It's toxicity plus what you think is your love. And, like, those feelings won't be there when you do decide to be together. And, like, are you still gonna enjoy this relationship? Yeah. Okay, well, you changed my mind. I was like, wow. Seems like maybe they're a really good match. And I hate that it happened. And now I'm like, no, are you kidding me? If you've ever double dated and then you do a swab seas off the.

[Sutton Foster]

Cliff, but everyone who's ever worked with either one of them, like, say that they are the kindest people. Like, people say that Hugh Jackman is the nicest person, but again, we don't know the ins and outs. Do you believe, though, that, like, if you are with someone but you meet the person that, like, I don't know, you feel like you're actually supposed to be with, that that's.

[Chelsea Devantez]

What would you do, I think, if. If you really are like, oh, shit, I wasn't supposed to be with you. I supposed to be with this person? Like, yeah, absolutely. And end your Marriage end at first.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't think.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't think you.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Make out backstage in front of your castmates, which would be annoying even if.

[Sutton Foster]

It wasn't a full band leader gear.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And I also think, like, 26 years of being married is a really long time.

[Sutton Foster]

It's a long time.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I don't know. Okay, well, we have to cover a couple things before we wrap this up.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

We have our psychic moment, which is her mean ass mom being like. Like, you will never have kids.

[Sutton Foster]

Right.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And when Sutton is having trouble conceiving and does egg retrieval and all 15 eggs are abnormal, she thinks like, oh, my God, my mom was right. And then she gets pregnant. They're, you know, they're doing all the things, but then she's still, like, touring and doing shows and stuff that they're like, we don't recommend you do this.

[Sutton Foster]

And filming Right after a transfer.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. And she. That's a lot. And she has a miscarriage. And in this moment, she's like, we have to look at other options. We have to look at adoption.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And what I liked about her adoption story is that it is an open adoption where basically the biological mom has a post adoption contact agreement. And it's basically that the biological mom and her daughter get contact with each other so she gets to know where she came from and also gets to have these amazing parents. And Sutton and Ted, I just think that it's very beautiful. And I personally, you know, obviously these issues mean a lot to me, but I think open adoption, open donor conception, like, these are the things that make a big difference in the child's life. And also, Sutton talked about her two best friends are adopted, and it impacted her decision a lot, which also makes me realize, like, oh, good. Listening to adoptees and listening to donor conceived adults is how you will raise an adoptee or donor conceived child in a beautiful way versus people usually listen to the recipient parents.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I. And so I think I felt. I felt very, like, very happy for her in her adoption process with Emily.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, I always. I always feel for anybody who's gone through any kind of infertility, because I've been there and I know what it's like to just be like, I want a kid and to go into one egg retrieval thinking that that's all you need. And then, yeah, things come back abnormal and you. And you implant and like, transfers don't work. Like, I know that process. So for them to kind of. And for her to kind of be like, I. I can't keep doing this. Like, to make her family whoever she needed to and to. To kind of have this beautiful situation where there was, like, these signs and the. The birth mother crocheted as well, and they were both making Emily a blanket. It was like, a really, like, special thing.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. I think any adoption that, like, like, centers the birth parents and birth mother as well is, like, a really positive adoption experience in my eyes.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Well, then the end of the book gets so meta, because now she's like, I'm on Younger, where I work in a publishing company, and after seven years of pretend working in a publishing company.

[Sutton Foster]

I walked into one to write a book. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And. And then the process of making the book becomes the last chapter of the book. Book. Yeah. There's some. It's not really Hillary Duffy, only in that, like, they were co workers and then maybe, like, Four Seasons in. Became friends.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. And they talked about mom stuff. I though I did cry when she talked about Peter Herman. He, like, secretly was learning how to crochet. To crochet her a big thing that said, like, thank you, because, you know, she's like, the lead, and her energy trickled down to the people. And, like, when he was like, yeah, no, I secretly was, like, learning how to crochet to speak to you in your language, which I thought was like, so I'm also very pregnant. So I was just like, peter Herman, that's Marisa Hargitay's husband. Seems like a good catch, I'll tell you that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it. It was very. It was beautiful. And this is how she ends the book. She says, I wrote this book to understand my mother, which. Okay, intense.

[Sutton Foster]

Intense.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And so that one day Emily will understand me.

[Sutton Foster]

Beautiful. To better understand me, I wanted to.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Piece together all the meaningful moments, like a quilt, to make sense of who I am, where I come from, and how I feel about those I love in the hopes that it, too, will be passed on another heirloom. Like the penguin blanket and the badass collage. Those copper cookie cutters, as well as the pink and blue blanket that Emily's birth mother made for her and that strawberry shortcake bookmark that my mom made for me. All pieces that Emily might use to tell her own story one day. I love it. It was just beautiful.

[Sutton Foster]

I also. There was two lines that she said that, like, I actually wrote down for my own life, too, that I just kind of like. I said she had peppered in kind of, like, these little things about just as A creative. These are things that I resonated with along with all the mother stuff. But she said nothing bad will happen if I allow myself to be big. Which I thought was like, a necessary reminder for all of us. And something that I forget if it was like, if the Patty said it to her or whatever about just like her talent said, you've got it now give it away. Which is like, I remember. I loved that.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I remember that, too.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah. I remember when somebody, when I was like, really in my first couple years of comedy, being like, stop trying to take the laughs. Give it. Like, give it. And so it's like, you gotta remember, like, if you, like, you have it now, give it away. So it's like, it's not. It's kind of like that. Get out of your own way. Get out of your own head a little bit. And also, I just love that nothing bad will happen if I allow myself too big. You don't have to shrink. Think anything about yourself to succeed.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah, I. I love it so much, Casey. All right, let's do the book Dull Test. You ready?

[Sutton Foster]

What is the book Doll test?

[Chelsea Devantez]

The book Dull Test. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

[Sutton Foster]

I thought so.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I'm gonna give her a half. There's obviously so much more she could give, but I loved it.

[Sutton Foster]

What are this? What is the metrics of scoring? What do we give her? One half or two?

[Chelsea Devantez]

No. No. You usually give a yes or a no, but I've broken my rule today.

[Sutton Foster]

So you gave her a half? You give her a half? Maybe.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Well, it's just, you know, the book is so delightful because she doesn't get too dark, but also talks about a bunch of dark, which I love. So I loved it. I'm just saying I think there's probably a lot more she could say. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read?

[Sutton Foster]

I thought so. I liked it.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Loved it. Couldn't put it down. Raced through it.

[Sutton Foster]

It's very quick read.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

[Sutton Foster]

Well, I've got these two quotes that really pertain to me, and I've got some lessons about accepting your mom for who she is. So I would say yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I love that, Casey.

[Sutton Foster]

She passes my test.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Yeah. Okay. And I'm a yes.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And the specific way the book elevated me is that after years of her mom being cruel, she gets an email and it just says, you rock.

[Sutton Foster]

I loved that from her mom. Yeah. And after years of, like, just the bad reviews, just something said, you you rock.

[Chelsea Devantez]

You rock. And she and her mom start an email relationship where they, you know, you rock. Is sort of as. As good as it gets, but it's just so. It's endlessly positive compared to what she's been with through her mom. And they get to reconnect a little bit before her mom dies.

[Sutton Foster]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And Sutton finds out that her mom has discovered Xanax. Yes. And finally has had enough of her panic and agoraphobia. Alleviated that she can be nice to her daughter.

[Sutton Foster]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devantez]

And I said my. I love. I love a medication story where you take the stigma away. And personally, I joke about Xanax a lot because I have to take it to fly. And in when I have really intense panic moments, I have it, but I still have this weird guilt with it because it's not the only med I take. And I have this weird guilt of, like, if I was, like, healthier or more healed, like, I would be able to control my panic better, but I, like, can't. And reading that, I was like that, Man, I love Xanax. Xanax allows me to feel a level of joy I sometimes don't always feel, and it allows me to, like, fly places on a book tour. And I was just like, stop feeling bad about it, man. You rock. Rock.

[Sutton Foster]

You rock. You rock, Chelsea. You rock. You Take that Xanax proudly.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Thank you. Shake it around like a morocca on the plane.

[Sutton Foster]

Oh, my God. Yeah, Goldie. I give Goldie my antidepressants and say, this is what saved me. After you, my dear. Shake them. Shake them. Shake them. Shake them. Shake them. Shake them, Shake them, shake them.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Casey, tell everyone where they can listen to your podcast and find you online and follow you and support you.

[Sutton Foster]

Please come over. We'll talk about who can and can't bell at its Broadway Bitch on Instagram. I think it's Broadway B underscore tch. Because if there's anybody who's a little bitch, it's Mark Zuckerberg, and he doesn't like when we spill out bitch on TikTok. It's Broadway bitch. On itunes, it's Broadway Bitch. It's Broadway Bitch. It's everywhere. I'm also at K Space B, C, A, S, E, F, A, C, E, B. But please do come and join us over on the Broadway podcast. I'm having a wonderful time and would love it if you are into this, to come be part of our little community.

[Chelsea Devantez]

I love it so much. I adore you and I'll see you soon.

[Sutton Foster]

Bye.

[Chelsea Devantez]

Bye. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Homm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audio but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.