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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Tina Knowles' Memoir Matriarch (with Maria Randazzo and Matt Whitaker)
02:25:35
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- [00:00]
Chelsea Devontez
Hey, welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that recaps viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and glamorous trash to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today is a celebrity memoir episode. We are book clubbing. The most perfect memoir you could ever book club in light of the fact that it is Mother's Day coming up. We are book clubbing Matriarch, a memoir by Tina Knowles, who is obviously Beyonce Knowles mother, Destiny's child's mother, Kelly Rowland's mother. I kind of found out her pseudo mother, a mother to the world, might ask her to also join in, be one of my mothers. She's just absolutely unreal. This title matriarch is fantastic. Stands alone, but also is thematically woven in so beautifully. The COVID has the most beautiful gold portrait of her. It's just stunning. One of the best memoir covers and already Oprah's book club sticker 2025 printed on the hardcover. So it. It has been anointed. And she is this incredible, beautiful. The inner pages are like of the art that was on the COVID So it is a great book. We had so much to say. This is a real doozy of an episode. But I want to give you a pieces of hot goss right now that we didn't even get to, but I feel like you should know. So when Beyonce is dating Jay Z, or I guess she says talking. When Beyonce's talking to Jay Z and she says it's around the time that she is in Los Angeles to film Austin Powers, Beyonce is also talking to another man in the industry and she has to choose between the two of them because both of them are coming to Los Angeles. And she doesn't know what to do and turns to her mom, and her mom says, who do you like talking to the most? And she chooses Jay Z. My question for anyone on our Patreon, who was the other guy? Tina gives no hints other than he's also in the industry. Another little piece of gossip is that for Destiny's Child's famous independent women, Part one video, which you know is part of the Charlie's Angels movie, had this whole music video to it. I think we all remember them dancing in that weird CGI industrial building, but they had on these amazing colorful striped outfits. And then in the fight scene, all this flowing fabric. Well, the studio had so badly wanted to fire Tina Knowles as their stylist because she, quote, dressed them too black. That they had tried to offer Destiny's Child Pat Fields to be their stylist, who was the famous stylist from Sex and the City, who, you know, everyone loved. But they were trying to maneuver Tina out of there so that they wouldn't dress, quote, black. And everyone stood up to them and said no. And now those outfits are famous for how incredible they are. And the last little hot piece of gossip. I just want this to be in your head for when we discuss all of the Tina Knowles, Matthew Knowles relationship stuff. And there's a lot of it. There was one quote I didn't get to in our episode, and you just have to hear it. So after they finally, finally divorce for the last time, Matthew Knowles remarries, and Tina takes the high road when she's forced to be at an event with the new wife, who does not get a first name. But she said, I'm going to be so kind to her. And it's all about how she's welcoming her into the family, even though, you know, it's tough for her, but she doesn't want people to pick sides. And so she writes this. Matthew and I did not work out. Sometimes when two people each have these dynamic, expansive lives and big careers, they are not evenly yoked for each other. I was too much for Matthew and the balance was off. But I have never wished him any ill will, and I am happy that he's happy. She is perfect for him, which I caught that tiny little shade, you know, Tina is too much for him. But this lady is not. She is not a lot. She is not too much. She is perhaps less than. That is the Tina T at its most perfect, gentlest level. There is so much to get into. I loved reading this book. Before we begin, I gotta tell you that this episode recording was nearly three hours long. Now, don't worry, we. We cut that baby down to two. And on the initial rough draft edit that I did, the audio sounded great, sound sounded perfect. But I'm here telling you this because then Christina did her intense extra special pass. And then normally we get it off to our sound engineer, but our sound engineer wasn't able to get to it in time because we recorded on Saturday. And we're turning it around for today, Tuesday, and we're on a tight. A tight crunch. So I am here to tell you that if you hear something a little off, a little wonky, it is because of this. However, I'm actually not sure you will. But Christina went in herself and did the sound engineering because she's incredible and she was like, this episode is important. We must get it out on time. I just love her so much. But also, we have been grinding at this episode every second of the weekend and I want her to get some rest. So just know that before we dive in, just in case. Now let's dive in. There have been so many narratives about me and my family, so many misconceptions, so many lies that I decided one day, you know, do I want people to tell my story after I'm gone and create their own narrative or should I tell it? So that was very, very important to me that I got the story out myself. This book is so special. I have two guests here with me today. First is Matt Whitaker, a TV writer who has written for series such as Unbreakable, Kimmy Schmidt and Girls five Eva with yours truly. And most recently, he is the writer and co executive producer of the new Netflix series Four Seasons starring Tina Fey, Steve Carell, Colman Domingo and Matt. We met on Girls5Eva.
- [06:42]
Matt Whitaker
We met on Zoom on Girls5Eva.
- [06:45]
Chelsea Devontez
I still don't know how tall you are. One day in the Zoom room, we did guess everyone's heights. Do you remember that?
- [06:53]
Matt Whitaker
I do, I do. I think it was like the last day we really had senioritis.
- [06:57]
Chelsea Devontez
And our second guest, Maria, from our Griffin Dunn episode, which is one of my favorites of the year. So no pressure to you both. And that episode is behind our paywall. You can only get it if you are subscribed. You can subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, directly from the apps or go to our Patreon. You get ad free listening all of the bonus episodes and if you're on Patreon, the access to our community in the chat and newsletters and pictures, blah blah blah. And I have to tell y'all, Hilaria Baldwin's memoir dropped today, the day this episode is coming out. And that will be a bonus subscriber only episode. We are covering the book. It's for paying members only. I can promise you on my life, between the Griffin Dunn episode and whatever hilarious Baldwin is about to say in her memoir, this subscription is worth it. So subscribe on Apple one click, Spotify, one click or go to Patreon and get all your bonus content. So Maria, your I gotta give you your big beautiful intro. You are a writing mod for behind the Bangs, which is the glamorous trash school. You are also a writer, comedian, actress. Maria was a writer on the Problem with Jon Stewart. Also with me. I guess I've just pulled in all my coworkers today. And you can also see Maria performing sketch and improv all around New York City. She also started a new podcast called the List. Give people the hot pitch for it.
- [08:16]
Maria Randazzo
Okay. The list is four friends with a lot on their minds. We're four friends who love each other so much, and we come together to share the thing that is at the top of our list that we must share with each other. So we each go around, we get to share one thing, and then we kiki about it, and we just have a lot of fun.
- [08:34]
Chelsea Devontez
It is absolutely delightful, but also really deep, which I feel like I need right now in my podcast. Like, I need it to be super fun, but also aware of what's happening. I need both those things.
- [08:45]
Maria Randazzo
Thank you so much. That's so nice. You also had us guess our heights in the problem with Jon Stewart writers room Zoom as well.
- [08:52]
Chelsea Devontez
Wow. Maybe. Do you think I took it from girls 5 Eva or I'm the one in Zooms being like, we should all guess each other's heights as a fun way to not do work.
- [09:02]
Maria Randazzo
It was really fun. I think it's a great icebreaker and a great way to hang out in Zoom.
- [09:07]
Chelsea Devontez
Listen, Zoom writers rooms. They're tough. Okay, we need games. You do.
- [09:11]
Maria Randazzo
You really do.
- [09:12]
Chelsea Devontez
You do. Okay, so you two have something very special in my life where Matt, we've stayed friends, we've kept in touch, but I got a text message, and it said, hello, Tina Knowles memoir is coming out. This is me. This is mine. So this was the one I said, whenever you're ready, text me, tell me, why was Tina Knowles the book for you?
- [09:33]
Matt Whitaker
In the same way that I am separately a huge Beyonce fan and a huge Solange fan, I have become separately a huge Tina Knowles fan. I think if I could have only five Instagram follows, Tina would remain one of my Instagram follows. And I think, you know, her daughters are so private and so protective, But Tina is, shockingly, the most unfiltered person on social media. So as soon as I saw that she was writing this book, I just knew this was gonna be my next audiobook. I knew I would be listening to it and not just reading it in print. And so I don't know if the two of you read it in print.
- [10:19]
Chelsea Devontez
Or I read it in print. What was the audio experience like?
- [10:22]
Matt Whitaker
Oh, I mean, it was just so fun. I mean, you know, it's the same voice that is giving me corny joke time on Instagram. She's got a very melodic voice, but you also hear some emotion flare up in certain Moments. So that was really special. But also, Chelsea, I feel like we talked so much about Y2K era girl groups that it felt like, oh, we're going to have a conversation about early days of Destiny's Child.
- [10:47]
Chelsea Devontez
It was very funny to know that you were one of my guests. And I was back in the girls 5eva room. As I was reading this book unintentionally, I'd be like, oh, well, we should pull that into an episode. And I was like, that's okay.
- [11:03]
Matt Whitaker
Right, right, right.
- [11:04]
Chelsea Devontez
But I was like, oh, my God, I would have wanted to talk to you about every morsel of this. You're so right. And speaking of corny joke time, I have long, long known that Maria is obsessed with Tina Knowles, specifically and separately from Beyonce.
- [11:20]
Maria Randazzo
I am an enormous Beyonce fan. In the words of Adele, beyonce, you are the artist of my life. I love Beyonce so much because I am so in love with Beyonce. Like, she folds her family into so much of what she does that that's how I, like, also fell in love with Tina. And also Tina's Instagram presence. So good, the way she writes her captions. I'm so glad nobody on her team touches them, fixes them. I don't know if you've ever seen them, but they have three commas in a row and a typo here or there, and it's just so endearing.
- [11:54]
Chelsea Devontez
So before we really, really get into it, gotta shout out, my boy Kevin Carl Leary is back now. He ghost wrote, co authored this book, and I was shocked to see his name because the last memoir he did that also blew me away was Jessica Simpson.
- [12:13]
Matt Whitaker
Wow.
- [12:13]
Chelsea Devontez
And I said, kevin, can you do Tina, though? Like, I. It's just. It's not a match I would have made in my mind. But this man can do it. This man can co author a memoir and just really let the woman's story shine and he doesn't get in the way. And I was originally kind of mad at him because I was like, who is this man who is co authoring all these trauma memoirs from women? And then someone messaged me, and they were like, he's brilliant and lovely and so nice. And I'm just here to give the flowers to Kevin Carl Leary. I mean, obviously also Tina, but to ghostwrite and co author and disappear from the book and really let her story be told and be written beautifully. What did you think of just overall writing of the book?
- [12:54]
Matt Whitaker
I thought it was gorgeously written. You just got such a sense of place in Galveston. I join you in giving him his Flowers. Because it really was a beautifully written book, and it felt very much in her voice.
- [13:07]
Chelsea Devontez
Such a skill set. And when I say, my boy, Kevin Car O'Leary, we don't know each other. He probably has me blocked. He's like, this girl keeps having opinions about my work. We don't know each other.
- [13:17]
Matt Whitaker
I didn't realize that there was that connection to Jessica Simpson, who also shows up in the book.
- [13:22]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, right. And so he. Yeah. Jessica Simpson crossover in this memoir. Actually, let's just get to it right now.
- [13:28]
Maria Randazzo
Destiny's Child was doing a show, and they met Jessica, and they gave Jessica an enormous dressing room. And Destiny's Child had the small one. There was four girls, and it was just Jessica. She talked about how sweet Jessica was to Jessica herself. Was like, this is weird. I shouldn't have this huge room.
- [13:44]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. But then it was like this Y2K racism being like, oh, Jessica Simpson, even though they were on the same level at that time, was treated so much better than them. But how Jessica was so gracious and also didn't want that to happen. And then how Ashlee Simpson and Solange.
- [14:01]
Maria Randazzo
Were like, we're the younger sisters.
- [14:04]
Matt Whitaker
I just love them being friends on the side.
- [14:06]
Chelsea Devontez
I know. Me too. One of the most masterful things that this memoir accomplishes is being really open and telling everything and then sitting back and thinking. You said absolutely nothing about Jay Z. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, she talked about it. She went there. Everything was present. But at the end of the day. And I do think a lot of subtext told that story. But, like, same with other moments where she's talking about Solange's pregnancy. There's moments where I was like, oh, my God, Tina gave us everything. And then I think back and go, or did she.
- [14:39]
Matt Whitaker
She barely talks about Lemonade as an album, which says a lot, Right?
- [14:43]
Chelsea Devontez
Did she even really mention it? Is it in there?
- [14:46]
Matt Whitaker
I think even there are these songs. I mean, Ring off is a song about Tina, even, and that doesn't come out. So I feel like there were moments, particularly in Beyonce's career and Beyonce's personal life, where suddenly I feel like we're skipping over a lot after what was a very rich, very dense, slow exploration of her life before being a mother.
- [15:11]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And it's almost like if you don't already know things like that, you would never know you were missing them. It does feel like she gives you the whole story. And I was like, what a skillset. Because all I can think about is the recent time when Tina liked a post Talking shit about Jay Z and then posting on her Instagram stories saying, that wasn't me. I was hacked. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Team Mom Z. My mom texted me a selfie and she said, I need makeup help. And I said, good, because now I know what I'm getting you. For Mother's Day, I got her a bunch of products from Thrive Cosmetics. Let me just tell you what I got her. The Brilliant eye brightener, the deluxe Mini Liquid Lash volumizer mascara. I also got her the instant brow fix and two lip filler long wearing plumping lip liners. I cannot recommend these products more. They're vegan, they're cruelty free, and Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes that really matter with every single purchase. If you just get one product, get the Brilliant eye brightener Mini in Stella Champagne Shimmer is my favorite shade. You're going to change your eye game. It also has over 40,000 five star reviews, so don't just take my word for it. Discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics. Luxury beauty that gives back. You can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S e m e t-I c s.com glamorous for 20% off your first order, go celebrate your teen mom Z. And also get some for yourself.
- [16:48]
Matt Whitaker
Hi, this is Jevon, your blinds.com design consultant.
- [16:51]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, wow, a real person.
- [16:53]
Maria Randazzo
Yep.
- [16:53]
Matt Whitaker
I'm here to help with everything from.
- [16:55]
Chelsea Devontez
Selecting the perfect window treatments to. Well, I've got a complicated project. No problem.
- [17:00]
Matt Whitaker
I can even help schedule a professional measurement install. We can also send you samples fast and free.
- [17:05]
Chelsea Devontez
Hmm. I just might have to do more. Whatever you need. So the first room we're looking at is for shopblinds.com now and get up to 50% off with minimum purchase. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply. Okay, let's dive back into the episode.
- [17:24]
Maria Randazzo
That was one of the most epic moments.
- [17:26]
Chelsea Devontez
That's what you said, Maria. Where like, no one is checking in on her socials because the moment you're like, oops, I liked this post. Saying some truth about my daughter's husband. I shouldn't have. I didn't even know other people could see it. But the explanation is not. You were hacked for one. Like on A E News. Right, Right, right, right, right.
- [17:47]
Maria Randazzo
That was the only thing that happened. But yeah, there was a lot. I think that there definitely is subtext in the book. I agree with you, Chelsea. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of Beyonce lyrics that are directly in the book as, like, a part of a paragraph that I kind of took as subtext sometimes.
- [18:03]
Matt Whitaker
I think Tina's kind of what allows them to stay as private as she wants to be. You know, no one's kind of begging for as much or insisting for as much from Beyonce herself because Tina's kind of putting on a show for everyone.
- [18:18]
Chelsea Devontez
And I think the idea, and we'll get to this in the book, that Tina really deserves this book. Like, she deserves for the world to know all the ways she was. She just did so much. So the book is in three parts. A daughter, a mother, a woman. The daughter section is almost half of the entire book. And I was torn because classically on this podcast, one of my number one rules is like, please don't talk about your grandfather's grandfather's grandfather. You know, I'm here for your life. And she really does a lot of family history, but it's also so deeply important as not just, like, obviously, like, for her family. This is one of the most beautiful things you could ever have in a family, talking about all these stories and all these people, but also just historically, for other people to read a personal story about the history of this family line and how they survived and Jim Crow laws, and it just had a much deeper meaning. So I want to talk to you both about some of your favorite parts from the daughter section, because it is the mother and woman section where we get all the tea, but also the daughter section is beautiful. So, Matt, did you have a favorite moment or two?
- [19:44]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah, I wanted to highlight this actually feels more tied to later moments with Destiny's Child. But I have always thought that Matthew Knowles was such a, you know, ferocious stage parent and that Tina Knowles was very supportive, but that didn't really care so much about the music or the fame so much. But then when she's 13 or 14 years old, Tina starts her own girl group called the Veltones.
- [20:17]
Chelsea Devontez
The Veltones. Yeah.
- [20:19]
Matt Whitaker
And, you know, the rest of the daughter section, there's so much wisdom in it. There's so much tenderness for people in her family, for each of her parents, there's an exploration of trauma from these mean black nuns across the street from her where she went to school. Then suddenly, when she talks about the Veltones, it is petty, petty, petty. The chapter opens. Harriet was late for rehearsal again. So already she's mad about something that happened. Harriet's getting it in 1968. And she says, sorry, Haret. She had insisted on changing her name when we formed our singing group, the Veltones. That was about as much effort as she put into the previous year of us being a trio. That is paragraph one of this whole chapter. So she's definitely working through this grudge. Then Hert leaves the group because her boyfriend is jealous of the time she's spending in the Veltons, which also, these.
- [21:23]
Chelsea Devontez
Are all just like such classic girl group stereotypes of the past. And thank you for calling her Herrette, because you could be Shady and just Harriet. Name checker.
- [21:33]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah, yeah. Eventually, when they leave, she goes, we don't need her. She was just Harriet to me. Now that she wasn't a veil tone. But then replaces Haret with her best friend, Vernel, and she then learns that Vernel cannot sing. Vernel, standing up for herself, says, well, the Bible says, make a joyful noise. It doesn't matter if you can sing or not. If it's a joyful noise, it's some noise. I whispered to Gayle. So she is just, with just such vivid precision, recalling her grudges from back in the day. I definitely enjoyed that a lot. It kind of gave us a miniature version of A Destiny's Child. I also thought in this section, she and her friend see Alvin Ailey Dance Company for the first time. And this was vindicating for me personally, because I am a huge lover of Alvin Ailey, and I have noticed references to Alvin Ailey in a lot of Beyonce concerts, especially even recordings. And, you know, if I have a couple vodka sodas in me, I will rant to people at parties about how they're missing the Alvin Ailey subtext in some Beyonce shows.
- [22:49]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I. I have not. I've never known that. Yeah.
- [22:52]
Matt Whitaker
Tina says it was kind of the thing that made her fall in love with art and something that she passed down to her daughters. And I found that to be very beautiful. And, you know, tell us a lot about Alvin Ailey being a choreographer who was from Texas and elevated his craft, but also brought Texas with him and brought country with him, and he was a gay man. And I think so much of the daughter section, shedding light on Uncle Johnny is steeped in just sort of pride in homosexuality. And so, to me, that was a very beautiful moment.
- [23:28]
Chelsea Devontez
And her seeing Alvin Ailey was like, that moment when your childhood is not set up. Maybe your circumstances, like, are not going to lead to mothering the greatest girl group of all time. Like, she did not know where her life was heading her and seeing this one artistic moment and realizing there's a way out. Because Alvin Ailey, also, for anyone who doesn't know, Famous Black Dance Company, which was, like, so rare in the white ballet world. And so seeing that and Texas and that he was gay, like, it was like, this whole possibility that she didn't even know existed that she could follow. And then we should tell people who Uncle Johnny is, because he shows up in Beyonce's lyrics. Uncle Johnny made my dress that cheap spandex. She looks a mess. He's part of Tina's childhood as, like, her just absolute bestie. Ride or die. They're best friends. He is her nephew, but later in life, he's going to be called Uncle Johnny. And he's also sewing the costumes and the pageant dresses, but also dealing with everyone's judgment on his relationship, and he can't be out with his relationship. And she, like, loses neighbors and friends.
- [24:39]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Chelsea Devontez
Actually, sometimes on this podcast, someone talked about how Beyonce, her activism is in question because she is so private. Right. This is a debate we could have, but the one thing she's really done is speak out about AIDS and AIDS research, and it's her Uncle Johnny, who she's always, like, really standing up for. So when you were reading those parts from the childhood, were you just like, oh, my God, it's matriarch. This is the through line of, like, mother to daughter.
- [25:09]
Matt Whitaker
I listen to Renaissance all the time. Spotify has told me in my Spotify rap that I'm in the top.01% of Beyonce listeners.
- [25:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Wow. Wow. That's okay. Spotify, I think.
- [25:21]
Maria Randazzo
Me too.
- [25:22]
Matt Whitaker
Honestly, I am deep hive. And some people out here are really acting like their personality is Beyonce. And then they post their Spotify wrapped.
- [25:30]
Maria Randazzo
And I'm like, it's like, no, it was all Beyonce for me.
- [25:33]
Matt Whitaker
This past year, there were moments of it before Renaissance came out and she had spoken about her Uncle Johnny. I think maybe it was a GLAAD prize that she received. But then when Renaissance came out and it was referencing all of this queer black music, the lyrics of heated mention. Uncle Johnny made my dress. And I think a lot of people didn't know who Uncle Johnny was, but the book really makes you know that Uncle Johnny was not just some person she met a couple of times. And it wasn't even someone that her mom was friends with at, you know, one age, you know, when they started to go out. Like, this was her best friend from early childhood, and the whole family knew that he was gay. She said Johnny knew that he was gay from the time he was three years old, and they still loved him. And they tried to teach him basketball. He didn't want to play basketball. They didn't care. They taught him how to sew, and he just went on to make beautiful things. And then later in life, when he.
- [26:35]
Chelsea Devontez
Gets sick, yeah, he had a long battle with AIDS and passed away.
- [26:39]
Matt Whitaker
Tina brings Beyonce and Solange to him. You know, they've grown up with him, but they're, you know, listening to music with him. They're listening to Crystal Waters and Robin s while he's on his deathbed and dancing for him. And it just really lets you know that that activism is not in question, that the only reason you would think it's in question is because Beyonce does not overshare about her life and her past. But everything about Uncle Johnny is so moving and lovely and fun and then devastating.
- [27:12]
Chelsea Devontez
In this book, I completely agree, and at one point, we're gonna get to it. But when Tina is really gonna make her move to become the breadwinner so that she can leave Matthew, which we're gonna get to, that'll probably take up the whole podcast. Uncle Johnny has gone through a devastating heartbreak of losing his partner who died of breast cancer. But because he was a man and because he was gay, no one would believe that he had breast cancer. And they all believed he had AIDS or HIV and face a lot of prejudice for that. And he passes away from breast cancer. And so then Tina asked Johnny to move in to heal his heartbreak and feel needed, and he becomes the Manny, and he takes care of the girls, and she comes home and he's taught them dances. And so he's such a serious part of their life. And just to quickly do this, I had a guest, very smart guest, talk about, with Beyonce's power, she should do more activism. I fully disagree. I think wearing Black Panther designed outfits at the super bowl is, like, that's a conversation starter that says more than any speech. I think dancing in front of feminism and lights, like playing with the Dixie Chicks. And so I think it's her really inward personality that she's not gonna give a speech. But she's doing so much through her art. I have the feeling I don't need to tell you guys about that.
- [28:33]
Matt Whitaker
I think there are so many different ways to be an activist, and she is constantly, I think, committing to making statements and doing it artistically.
- [28:42]
Chelsea Devontez
There's been so much in the world. Okay, so before I ask you your favorite moments, we also have to talk about this photo section, it's incredible that they have this family history and they're able to put it in this book. But it also tells a really tragic and horrific and painful and incredible and strong story of what their family lived here to get here today. And I want to read some pieces from under the Pecan Tree that she writes about her family. And then we see pictures of them in this photo section. Rosalie, born around 1800, had been enslaved all her life in Louisiana when she had her daughter Celestine on a June day in 1826. So Tina's mom's great grandmother is Rosalie, and so then her daughter Rosalie's daughter is Celestine. And they managed to stay together even though, as Tina writes, black families were considered property and routinely ripped apart. And it is the telling of this story and surviving slavery and their eventual escape that is also in this photo section. In these photos. So, yeah, before I go any further, what do you guys think of the photos and that whole story, the part.
- [29:58]
Maria Randazzo
Of the early story where she really went way back in their bloodline? I just was so utterly bowled over by. It was the. I'm gonna try and get the lineage right. It's her. I think it would be a great, great grandma or a great grandma who was. Her and her children were being auctioned or being sold. And the man who was the father of those two children, the white man, purchased the two children and their mother. I was utterly bowled over by that.
- [30:29]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes, exactly. And Tina had written it that Celestine became a mother herself as a teenager, giving birth to two sons. Her children's biological father was the widow's white grandson. So the widow held their family in captivity with forced labor in slavery. And the widow's white grandson, it's Eloy Renee Broussard, who was about two years older than Celestine, is the biological father of these two children. And Tina is letting us read between the lines as to whether this relationship even had Celestine's consent in it or not. And she writes, In 1853, the widow who had enslaved them died, and all of her, quote, property was presented for public auction. And Maria, yes, that is when the biological father, her white grandson, purchases Celestine and his two children. But Rosalie, her mother, is sold, and she never sees her again. And Tina writes, I type these words, say them aloud, and I feel that fear and rage in my blood, the trauma passed down through my DNA. And she said, his receipt showed that he paid seventeen hundred dollars in cash for Celestine and her two children, his children, a Relative of the widow put down money for Rosalie's life. That's Celestine's mother. And she was taken from her daughter and grandchildren. I don't know if they ever saw each other again. And then Celestine would have 10 more children with this man, while he also had a white wife and three other daughters. And then she said, he was my great grandfather. So Tina's great grandfather is this man, this white grandson with all of its awful complexity? That is who he was. He acknowledged paternity of all of his children with Celestine and donated a small bit of land and livestock to her before his death in 1904. That's the way it's been presented to me. He acknowledged that he was the father of her children, and it gave her some tiny degree of security. Even before the Civil War, there was a portrait commissioned of her at some point, which I'm told speaks to her standing. I know it shows her beauty, but under the pecan tree, what mattered was this. Celestine was enslaved, and she became free, and she got her kids free. They stayed together. Those stories under the pecan tree nourished my soul. And my mother was making sure that I knew what an honor it was to be black. Once I was wearing a T shirt that read 100% black while I was out buying groceries. You better take that off, a black man said as I was walking by, peppering the insult with a certain familiarity to soften the blow. You're no hundred percent. I knew this was about my skin being light. Stopping in my tracks, I turned to him and I said, brother, I'm the blackest woman you'll ever meet. From my first breath, I was shown, told, and embraced into knowing that it is an honor to be a black person. My mother saw to it, making sure I carry all these mothers with me. God, it's just. It's so, so beautiful the way she tells the story in this book. Tina's history and what this family survived and had to fight through and live through, and the way the matriarchs carried these stories and passed them on so that it. It, you know, Beyonce and Solange get to make the art that they make and why their art has so much meaning in it and how they are carrying these powerful stories and how it's just this horrific part of American history and you can study it in school, and I imagine, like, studying it through, you know, Beyonce and Tina's family line. I. I just hope it has the. The impact that it. It had on me when I was Reading it for. For everyone who reads it again, put celebrity memoirs as textbooks and books. This is my goal, y'all.
- [34:19]
Maria Randazzo
I just got chills, like, up and down my arm. How she talks about it, saying that against all odds, these women stayed with their children. Against all odds. And how she said, my mother prayed for joy and for strength for, like, our whole family. And then towards the end of the book, just them being able to experience joy together. I'm getting emotional. Sorry. It's just so powerful. Just them being able to experience joy together was like, as Beyonce, her family and her pool is just, like, so incredible. How it's traced all the way back to slavery to this very moment. And all of that is apparent in Beyonce's art, which I think goes back to the thing about activism in question. What are you talking about?
- [35:07]
Chelsea Devontez
Her existence is activism. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now, and we'll be right. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.
- [35:45]
Maria Randazzo
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- [36:02]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, let's dive back into the episode.
- [36:07]
Matt Whitaker
And to know that this history was told very forcefully to Beyonce and Solange. If you are a fan of Beyonce and Solange, it makes so much sense, but it really paints a beautiful picture. I also think that Beyonce is often just treated as a black woman, period. But you kind of understand. I mean, she says in formation, my daddy, Alabama mama, Louisiana. There's also just a very specific black history, Creole history that Tina brings with her. And you know that they were Louisiana Catholics as well, who then ended up in Galveston. It's not just sort of your most expected narrative of a black family that's in Texas. And I think seeing these photographs, hearing their story, I think you just learn so much more about the south and American history. And these days, I'll take that in the form of a Tina Knowles autograph.
- [37:13]
Chelsea Devontez
I Gotta tell you, a big theme of the podcast is how much more history has stuck with me through celebrity memoirs than anything I ever read in school. I talk about this a lot, but Henry Kissinger is the man who is in the most celebrity memoirs. I think he's in, like, 31 of them. And I remember learning about, like, soft power and hard power and, like, he's evil, but never have I understood wartime crimes as when I read this man taking women out on platonic dates to get a photo. So, yeah, I mean, this. Tina's history and what this family survived and had to fight through and live through, and the way the matriarchs carried these stories and passed them on so that it, you know, Beyonce and Solange get to make the art that they make and why their art has so much meaning in it and how they are carrying these powerful stories and how it's just this horrific part of American history and you can study it in school. And I imagine, like, studying it through, you know, Beyonce and Tina's family line. I just hope it has the impact that it had on me when I was reading it. For everyone who reads it again, put celebrity memoirs as textbooks in books. This is my goal, y'all. Maria, did you have a favorite moment from the daughter section, and then we're gonna move to the mother section?
- [38:36]
Maria Randazzo
I did, so it does go back to Uncle Johnny. For me, like, that relationship was. It is just so special. And specifically the moment where Tina and Uncle Johnny team up to do the drag queen's looks and makeup. And I was. And I mean, I'm like, oh, my God, Chelsea, I was just thinking about you as I was reading this. I was like, chelsea has gotta be eating this up.
- [38:58]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I was los.
- [38:59]
Maria Randazzo
I loved how Tina put it, because it really sheds some light on something that I experience in my own life. She was so gifted. You could tell with art and design and hair and makeup and just making people beautiful, making life beautiful. And there's something that she touches on with going to Catholic school, which I went to Catholic school my whole life. And she has this sentence in the book where she talks about, there's so many people who think that shame means humility. And, like, the nuns sort of getting at her for being cute or just, like, looking cute one day, wearing a cute little dress, being her cute little self. And, like, I got in trouble all the time in school. The nuns would be like, Ms. Randazzo, go to the bathroom and take off your rouge. I literally said rouge. Oh, my God, yes.
- [39:46]
Chelsea Devontez
Wait, I didn't know you also had nuns as teachers. I did.
- [39:49]
Maria Randazzo
I had nuns as teachers. And they were. And this is why I can't do mental math to this day. Cause I had a math teacher who was a nun who was so mean. And I felt she would make you feel so bad if you couldn't do math fast. So, like, people now ask me, like, small math equations, and I'm like, you're.
- [40:06]
Chelsea Devontez
Having a childhood panic attack.
- [40:07]
Maria Randazzo
Seriously. So my point being, a lot of it comes from Catholicism. For me, there's like this, like, shame in being admired, being your most beautiful self. I think a lot of people confuse that with having humility. And it's this very, I think, toxic space to live in that shrinks you and tricks you into thinking shame is this, like, admirable good quality when it's like, no, you're dimming yourself. You're dimming your light. And so I just thought she put that in a really beautiful way. And I really related to her in a lot of those moments.
- [40:41]
Matt Whitaker
And then she has nightmares where the nuns are witches.
- [40:44]
Maria Randazzo
I know. I had a nun tell me that at night the devil walks with cloven hooves down my street. Like when I was. And I'm, like, laying in bed as a child, I'm like, this is terrifying. They were so scary.
- [40:56]
Chelsea Devontez
And a huge part being that her mom wouldn't stand up for her, which I think we're directly gonna see how much she stands up for her girls. Like, she just fully reverses this thing she didn't feel she could get when she's telling her mom all these horrible things that are happening to her.
- [41:12]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [41:13]
Chelsea Devontez
And still keeps that spirit in Catholic school with nuns is like, I'm going to a gay bar. She gets arrested at one point. Separate events. She has just such a light in her to follow her truth and, like, be herself.
- [41:24]
Maria Randazzo
Totally.
- [41:25]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay. So she becomes a mother. And she becomes a mother because she has met Matthew. And this. I really wasn't prepared to be this mad at a man I've never met. Yeah. Which is, you know, it's a daily hobby for me, reading about a man that I'm now mad about. But basically, from day one, Matthew is cheating. Day one, the beginning, as she's pregnant. And the way she wrote it was so, so odd. It was like, you know, he had his problems with cheating with other women. It's year one, and you're like, wait, what? Yeah. And then she gets pregnant with Beyonce. And she said, By 4 o'clock, I knew it was really happening. Matthew drove me to Park Plaza Hospital, his nerves starting up. He was so protective of me, but he was also very used to me not needing him. I was the strong one, and he could not stand me being in pain. And then he said, when they explained that contractions and pain were a normal part of childbirth, that answer wasn't good enough for Matthew. Give her something now. He yelled. He was really getting on my nerves. So she tells him to go to this happy hour he was holding for work. And she's like, you know, I think they really need you there, and that's more important than you being here. And then she says, when Matthew left, I was surprised by the relief I felt. I was so distracted managing his feelings. And besides, now, in this vulnerable time, Matthew was no substitute for my mother. There was a moment a nurse left the room to check on something, and I was alone. My mom should be here to hold my hand, I thought, to greet this child and welcome them. And so it's just so early to be like, you know, it's better for my husband to not be here for the birth of our child, because that is how much he takes from Tina emotionally. Z. Yeah. And they're gonna last decades together. And when she has Beyonce, I just. Yeah, this story made me cry, which is that Tina's family's last name is Beyonce. And because of racism, every time a child was born and the nurse went to write down their name on their birth certificate, they would spell Beyonce wrong. So each kid had a different spelling of Beyonce. She wrote in the book, she said, he reminded me that all of us kids had different spellings of our parents last name Beyonce. There was B, E, Y, I, N, C, E, B, O, Y, A N, C, E. And so, yeah, it was her personal spelling of Beyonce that was on her birth certificate that created the Beyonce we know now. Which it's just such a beautiful way of turning a trauma into a strength, into something so beautiful. She's lost her mother before she gives birth, and her mom dies, and then she's kind of instantly pregnant, and she's like, I'm keep Beyonce alive and gives her the name Beyonce. Which I was like, I was crying over here. Same.
- [44:26]
Matt Whitaker
I mean, that's why the family history is important too, because anyone who's a Beyonce fan doesn't even realize that her name is keeping all of this family history alive and intact. And it's that level of line.
- [44:39]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So true. And Matthew's just sort of like, you know, he's cheating and he works for Xerox and he makes six Figures. Which is like, listen, making six figures now is a dream. Yeah. Like, so back then, it's like, he's the Xerox corporate man making six figures. And, you know, she just starts raising Beyonce, and they move into the Third Ward, which was this historically black neighborhood that she'd always wanted to live in. And the way she just spoke about those stories and be able to, like, buy a home there was so stunning. And she wrote, I knew what protected us. Money, pure and simple. But none of it was mine. What kept me and my daughter safe depended on a marriage I did not have faith in lasting, a man I was not sure of. We were so good half the time. A cosmic kind of love that made everything worth it. But then Matthew's erratic behavior would take hold. I was caught in this dance with him, each doing the same steps over and over. He would cheat or act up. I would say I'd had enough. He would beg for forgiveness, crying and promising to be better. For a time, things would be wonderful, so consistent and steady that I would think everything was behind us. And then, boom, the same thing would happen again. But this is what married people did. I told myself, parents stay together through everything. I just can't get over that he was cheating multiple times every single year for the course of 30 years. I know.
- [46:02]
Matt Whitaker
And I think because when Tina divorced Matthew many years later and Beyonce released a song, you know, expressing pride in her mom in the song ring off.
- [46:16]
Chelsea Devontez
Until you had enough.
- [46:17]
Maria Randazzo
Then you took that ring off. So tired of the lies and try, try and cry, took that ring out.
- [46:26]
Matt Whitaker
And because, of course, as a unit, they seemed to be taking over the world together. I really was not expecting how many times Tina is on the verge of leaving Matthew through their whole marriage and is, in fact, finding an apartment for her and for the girls. And it really surprised me how much of a philanderer he is, how much of an adulterer he is from day one.
- [46:51]
Chelsea Devontez
And this, like, terrible sense of duty she feels to stay. And this, like, horrific irony that it is that sacrifice that also contributes to this group's success, because basically, the way he can, like, get her back with him and, like, be this Xerox CEO and, like, be such a great mental mind and charismatic and manipulator and talker is how, honestly, great qualities in a manager. And so when he manages the group, it is those qualities that also are helping the group, as Tina's doing all the other labor. It was so intense. I want to read this. So she's thinking to herself, I need to Get a career, because I'm gonna need to leave Matthew, which means Beyonce needs to be in like, a, you know, a daycare or at, like, a little school so that I can, like, go to school for hair and she checks on her. The second day, she was looking for her in the playground, and she said, then I saw her. It was the saddest sight. Beyonce was alone at the swing set, pushing an empty swing. No, a little girl stopped by me, pausing to catch her breath from running with friends. I said, you know, I think that girl over there is looking for someone to play with. She'd p you on the swing. She looked over quick, then right at me with the clarity that preschoolers have. I don't like her. Well, her name's Beyonce and she's really nice. I said. No one likes her, said the girl, just like that. My sweet 4 year old kept pushing the empty swing, and I hurried my steps to get her. Beyonce, I said. She blinked at me, coming out of some spell and then stopped pushing the swing. She put her hands behind her back in embarrassment. Mama, was all she said. I know, I said, reaching for her hand. I withdrew from beauty school that same day. We were not ready for this. This. And then she said what I didn't understand, that it was Beyonce's discernment that kept her quiet in new spaces. I wrestled with this. How could I help? This child, who at home had this huge personality, was always singing and joking to stop hiding her light from the world. And I was like, oh, my God. It explains Beyonce's like, you know, sometimes it could look like a choice from Beyonce to not say anything, to be private, but, like, her personality's really inward, and she truly Sasha Fierces. Like, now Sasha Fierce makes sense. She is a performer through and through, and in her life, she is a child pushing an empty swing, not wanting to talk to anyone. Right?
- [49:15]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah. She is the shy daughter. I knew a little bit about this, but it is fascinating that it's not this foregone conclusion that Beyonce is a superstar who's gonna take over the world. She is so quiet. She is so tender. Her teachers think that she needs to be held back. Tina gets her a tutor and learns that, you know, in fact, she's, you know, fine. And then it's just this revelation when she enters a talent show that, oh, our daughter might be the greatest performer of a generation, but the reaction is like, is that our daughter? Okay, I guess so.
- [49:50]
Chelsea Devontez
Because of the talent competition, she's like, I'm ready to get up there, pull my crying Child off stage when she freezes because she, like, can't even make a friend in the playground. And Beyonce stands up there, sings in a way that everyone is brought to their knees crying, like, we have just seen the next coming. And then Beyonce wins the trophy and leaves. And she's like, wanna see your friends? She's like, no, I have my trophy. Let's go. And I was like, I'm hungry.
- [50:13]
Maria Randazzo
I wanna go home and eat.
- [50:14]
Chelsea Devontez
I was like, amazing.
- [50:15]
Matt Whitaker
But at that talent show, I don't think she even has the trophy yet. She goes, mom, I'm hungry. Yeah, I wanna just get my trophy and go home. And her mom goes, you don't have the trophy. You don't know that you've won. Yeah. And Beyonce just gives her a look like, come on, we know that I won. We know that. I'm walking away with this.
- [50:35]
Chelsea Devontez
And isn't she in, like, second grade? Like, she's so young to be like, no, I surveyed the talent. This is mine.
- [50:42]
Maria Randazzo
Yes. She's so little.
- [50:44]
Chelsea Devontez
So she's like, oh, shit, I think she can sing. She signs her up for dance classes. All of a sudden, Beyonce comes alive where she's like, dancing and leading. And first she takes her to, like, a ballet class and she's crushing it. But then she's so good there that then she sees, like, another dance class that's more like, with other black girls and a black teacher and, like, doing way more high level moves. Then she takes her there, Beyonce takes over that class, and she realizes, like, oh, this is where my child belongs. Which is very beautiful. It is not like, hey, Beyonce, like, you're cute. Get out there and sing. Be in a commercial. You're gonna be a star. It is. Beyonce needs this versus, like, her parents pushing them into it. And she. Things fall apart with Matthew again. She thinks a second child will fix it. She gets pregnant. He cheats on her through the pregnancy. And as she's pregnant, she said, you'll have to be your own boss. This thought sprang up so clear in my mind, I tried to remember how it got there. Was it Johnny or Cheryl? Each had told me what I knew. I should open a hair salon. Beyonce closed her eyes, her face softening as she teetered on the edge of sleep. My codependency with my daughter was holding us back. I used her too long as an excuse to stay in the marriage and on a track that was not healthy. Maybe I thought a second baby would fix this. But now this new life growing inside me inspired me to move in the low Light of my child's sea foam green room as Miles trumpet climbed higher and higher I started to plan an escape. So fully pregnant, she starts siphoning money away, going to hair school and she's gonna open a salon. And Matthew's like, take out a small business loan. And in her heart she goes, I don't wanna be tied to paperwork with you. Yeah, just give me the money. Which, yeah, he should. He does. She opens a salon called Headliners.
- [52:33]
Maria Randazzo
I love it how it's so perfectly 80s. Can't you just see it? Like, I was like, cue the Designing Women montage. Like, yes.
- [52:42]
Matt Whitaker
Like I want to live in a multicam sitcom taking place in Headliners.
- [52:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Same. Yes, yes. Oh, Headliners. And again, Matthew is thought of as the business mind ahead of his time. Tina is surveying and goes, okay, it takes women. They're in the salon for hours and hours and hours. But like these professional women need to be like in and out. And there's a hole in the market market for like women who are career women who need to get in and out. But also this can be a place of networking. She wrote, I wanted to get these women in and out and have an establishment that banned gossip and uplifted women. People forget that women could not even open our own credit cards until 1974. A little over 10 years in and we were lawyers, doctors and financial planners, just like my friend Cheryl. As women rose in society, black women were constantly scrutinized and held to higher standards. I wanted them to have a place where they could relax and have all the extra pampering they deserved. I envisioned a salon that would be a place for networking so someone on the come up had to save up a little to be there. The price would be an investment in themselves and their ambitious goals. And then like there's like some crazy deal they give to start the salon. They basically give everything away for free for the first month just to like.
- [54:01]
Maria Randazzo
Get clientele a 999 haircut. It was like $9.95.
- [54:05]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes, she said the flyer offered a 995 shampoo and blow dry and reconstructive treatment for a first time. It only Matthew's idea for a can't resist deal that would get people in the door. And then later she says kind of no matter what they were getting done to their hair, she would try and get it down to like two hours or like a three hour service. Like very, very, very short. And like it takes so long to get your hair done at a salon. I'm just like dang, like she. How did she, like, up the level of quality and products and cut the time down? It's just a real skill set.
- [54:37]
Maria Randazzo
Isn't she a Capricorn? Doesn't she say that?
- [54:40]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, she is. Yeah. Now, does anyone here also have a Capricorn in one of their signs?
- [54:45]
Maria Randazzo
I know you do.
- [54:46]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. I really related to this. I was like, let's open a salon.
- [54:50]
Maria Randazzo
I know I don't have Capricorn. I wish I did.
- [54:52]
Matt Whitaker
My birthday is three days after Beyonce's birthday, so I've always related to her as a Virgo. Sorry. It's insane to say I related to.
- [55:02]
Maria Randazzo
Her, but I'm a Virgo moon.
- [55:04]
Matt Whitaker
To me, this was a kind of also fascinating, just, like, story of how this Capricorn mom, you know, influenced her life.
- [55:15]
Chelsea Devontez
I just want to say Beyonce is the most Virgo. If you're listening to this, you're like, I don't know what signs are. Well, Beyonce's a Virgo. Think of a Virgo. Think of Beyonce. So she is like, I'm making headliners. This is when Johnny moves in to help her run this salon where she is gone at all hours because she's trying to get a business together to leave Matthew and be able to take care of her girls. And at the same time, she's realizing that she has done so much for Beyonce. When she's five, she just stood with her hands out like a princess, waiting for me to take off her pajamas and put on the day's outfit. And Tina said, I'm looking at Beyonce like, man, this little girl can't do anything. And she has Solange, and Beyonce's in love with Solange. All she wanted was a babysitter sister. And so that's when she decides maybe she can stay with Matthew. And she writes for headliners. We would gross half a million dollars in the first year. I mean, unbelievable. And because there was no salon catering to black professional women. And then also at the same time, she would bring in unhoused women to get. Get their hair done, and then she would have them network. Like, who needs a receptionist? Come meet this woman. Do you have a suit that she could borrow? And over the course of time, 15 of the people she brings in to be hairstylists. She teaches them how to start their own salon. Fifteen salons. And the way she practices is, like, someone's mom who, like, worked as a house cleaner, and her, like, secretly went to hair school at night. And then they approached Tina, and they're like, hey, we did this, and we want to start Our own salon. We're really sorry. Please don't be mad. And she was like, I love you. This is amazing. Go on. Here's everything. I know. And so she was just so giving. And then all of these other women who came in and had nothing, got careers. Like, I just was crying. Yes, you got. Okay, Matt, are you going to pitch headliners or what?
- [57:20]
Maria Randazzo
Yes.
- [57:21]
Chelsea Devontez
I'm just saying if you don't, straight to the streamers.
- [57:25]
Matt Whitaker
I mean, look, I get Sacred Products, and if I'm buying Sacred Products for my mixed race hair, it's because of Tina's expertise. It's not even because I'm a Beyonce fan.
- [57:38]
Chelsea Devontez
And I was really curious about those products. Are they amazing, given how much Tina knows and, like, how she was changing her own hair products? And now Sacred is this line. Are they just unreal?
- [57:50]
Matt Whitaker
They're really good.
- [57:51]
Chelsea Devontez
That's amazing.
- [57:52]
Matt Whitaker
They weren't selling great at the very, very start, and. And I was worried that the product was just not gonna be that great. I've gotten some other celebrity hair products that haven't been so great. And, you know, of course, there's attention to the detail. And also just the way that Sacred products come in these beautiful bottles, it feels like headliners. It feels like everything that they do. I mean, the way that Tina growing up, her parents insisted that the kids all look nice and would make, you know, them the best clothes out of, you know, the remnants, the corners of pieces of fabric. And for headliners to take off the way that it did early on. I think it's just Tina understanding, you know, people love things, being nice. And you can still. Yeah, you can still have that be luxury. And you can also make it charitable, you know?
- [58:43]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And it can also be an affordable price, you know, like. Yeah, I. Yeah, I mean, I was.
- [58:48]
Maria Randazzo
Just like, I loved reading about headliners so much. The community that you was building, her ideas so ahead of her time. The other part of Headliners was that she was networking for other women and other professionals. But she also brought in people to train them to work in a salon, to, you know, be a receptionist or learn how to cut hair and work their way up and get their own chair and whatever. And so she was like, working community from all these different angles. And didn't she say she brought in a psychologist to talk to the people who work there to be like, this is how you deal with, like, the trials and tribulations of life and. And have a professional life?
- [59:22]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes, yes. And actually, little side point, I have a really deep relationship with my Hairstylist Olivia Scotland. She's coming on this podcast soon. But we were talking about how hairstylists are trained to look for domestic violence. Oh, wow. Like, they're trained to see signs and ask questions and, like, know how to deal with that. One, primarily because it can be a women's space, but also two, because the rest of the system is just failing us. Right. And so the other thing we were talking about and how much they deal with your head, they deal with people's heads. And I was like, I think y'all are, like, the witches, the walking witches of the world. Like, you are the. Yeah, it's the crown. It's so funny that people just think it's like, oh, it's hair, or it's whatever. And it's, like, so much deeper than that. One of the most important three hours of your life you spend per month or whatever, how many times you go. And Tina, being just a master at that made so much sense and how much she created out of this space, like, far beyond just, like, the most stunning hairstyles in Texas, which she also did.
- [60:27]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah. And in communities where therapy is stigmatized, hairstylists, barbers do take on a role as therapist in the lives of their customers.
- [60:37]
Chelsea Devontez
So, so true. God. Yeah. I just. Headliners really got me checking the IP rights on Mike right now. Okay, so then, because she's helping Beyonce to just express her personality, she gets involved with a group called Girls Time. Yes. And this is the first little girls group, and it is run by, like, other parents who come in and out, but Beyonce becomes, like, the choreographer. She becomes the lead singer. Oh. And this is where she meets Kelly, and she's like, mom, there's this other girl who's, like, incredible and, like. Like, voice of an angel. And Kelly starts staying over all the time because her mom is a single mom and is a domestic worker and would be moving around houses a lot for, like, which white families, like, home she's living in. And at one point, she's like, kelly has to drop out of the group because I got a job with a white family who will not let my child move in with me and stay with me. And Tina says, then let's have Kelly live here. And Kelly never leaves, ever. Yeah.
- [61:49]
Matt Whitaker
Kelly is another daughter in Tina's life completely. Not only is there as much attention and love given to Solange as to Beyonce, but Kelly also. I think I learned so much more about Kelly and spent so much more time with Kelly. And I think people like to assume that, you know, there is a Destiny's Child rivalry that exists. But Kelly's so part of the family.
- [62:15]
Chelsea Devontez
She is a full daughter and sister. And there's like, these beautiful lessons in there where, like, Kelly starts calling Matthew dad. Yeah. And Beyonce processes her feelings about it with Tina, which, like, you can totally see being a little kid being like, but that's my dad. But how she never gets mad at Kelly. She just goes to her mom and is like, how should I process these feelings? This is another skilled part of the book where she gives Doris, Kelly's mom, like, so much respect and, like, respect to that story. But between the lines is that Kelly is given up and raised by her family. She raises her to the point where, like, when she finally leaves Matthew, she's gotta enroll Kelly in a school. And then Beyonce in a school. Like, Kelly's the daughter. And then the very beginning of the book, there's some dedications. And then when. And one of the dedications is to my daughters who became my friends. Solange, Beyonce, Kelly. And then there's another name, Angie, who is also a daughter and member of the family. And I said, poor Michelle. Yeah, Michelle, Michelle, Michelle. And I kind of always before I realized Kelly's like a full daughter, I thought there was more of a rivalry there, but it's like, yeah, how were you ever. I mean, Kelly lives with them. And then Michelle joins the group late.
- [63:34]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [63:35]
Maria Randazzo
An emergency situation. Michelle joined the group. I was like, tina, you were brutal when you wrote about Michelle. Like, brutal. When she talked about Michelle's introduction, it was crazy.
- [63:47]
Chelsea Devontez
Can we talk about it? Okay, so I'm gonna just take us through this where they're in this girls group, and basically this iconic moment will lead to Destiny's Child. Your challenges are a young group from Houston.
- [63:58]
Matt Whitaker
Welcome Beyonce, Lativia, Nina, Nikki, Kelly, and Ashley.
- [64:04]
Chelsea Devontez
The hip hop rappin Girls Time.
- [64:07]
Matt Whitaker
They lose to this, like, skeleton crew.
- [64:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Skeleton crew. That's right. Judges give champions Skeleton Crew four stars. A perfect score.
- [64:17]
Matt Whitaker
The challenger, Girls Time, receives three stars.
- [64:22]
Chelsea Devontez
Skeleton Crew. But it's kind of this catalyst moment of girls time is gonna break up, and Matthew's gonna come in and they are gonna start their own girl group with the girls who remained. Kelly being one of them. Beyonce. And obviously, we know some of the girls switch out throughout the years, and so that'll later get us to what Destiny's Child is and the way she. I mean, okay, so when Kelly makes her way into their lives. Tina Wright. You know, eventually Kelly and I would have a conversation when she was 18. We talked about how we both had always held space for Doris, who she called mama, to be her mother. But I could be her mother, too. Kelly began to call me ma. I'm continually astonished and grateful to God for giving us this gift of Kelly. And then later, when they are trying to replace the other two girls who leave what becomes Destiny's Child with two more girls, she's like, we saw this headshot of a beautiful girl with a full mustache. Man, that mustache was working. But I thought to myself, maybe we could get rid of her mustache and maybe she could be good in the group. And then she's like, I called her, and she was taking care of her grandma in Chicago, and I said, what a sweet lady. She personally pays Michelle's flight to come out, Kind of knowing this could be the girl who could audition. She gets with Kelly and Beyonce, and they start going over her harmonies of what she's gonna audition with, and then they say, how about a makeover to get rid of that mustache? Yeah. And then Michelle goes, apparently, Michelle called her mustache her boyfriend, which is not the personality I was expecting from Michelle. What do we think of that?
- [66:03]
Maria Randazzo
I just thought it was so funny and weird.
- [66:05]
Matt Whitaker
I thought it was so funny and so weird that now Michelle's outstanding performance in Death becomes her. The musical makes more sense to me. Cause that is bizarre comedy.
- [66:17]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [66:17]
Matt Whitaker
And she's having fun with it.
- [66:20]
Chelsea Devontez
Can I tell you, I went to see that in New York specifically to see Michelle, and her understudy was in, who's also great. But my heart was broken.
- [66:27]
Maria Randazzo
That would be crushing.
- [66:28]
Chelsea Devontez
It was there for Michelle. So one of the cookies a long time ago drew my attention to a Tumblr called poor Michelle. Have you ever heard of this?
- [66:35]
Maria Randazzo
I know what you're talking about. Keep going. Keep going.
- [66:37]
Chelsea Devontez
It's just pages and pages of photos where Michelle is like. Like, they publish a photo and her eyes are closed. Yeah. Or everyone's looking one direction, she's looking the other direction. Or a different girl's in the photo, and they name her Michelle. And as you go through the book, she's so loving to Michelle. But also, Michelle just never had a chance is what it feels like.
- [67:00]
Maria Randazzo
Yes.
- [67:01]
Chelsea Devontez
What did you guys think?
- [67:02]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah. I was like, oh. Oh, my God. When I was reading about the mustache, I just wrote, brutal. Brutal. And I was like, I mean, you're kind of kicking her while she's down. Like, I feel like universally, people are like, michelle, like, what? What's the story there? She seems so nice, but, like, she's not at Kelly, Beyonce level with, like, intimacy. And friendship. Also, do you guys know the moment after the Coachella performance when Beyonce brings out Michelle and Kelly and everybody, like, freaks out? I feel like on stage, Kelly and Beyonce kind of have this moment. They're hugging, and then in the mic, you can hear one of them be like, that's my best friend. That's. And I'm like, where's Michelle in this? And so it's like.
- [67:39]
Chelsea Devontez
But it's like, oh, you guys have been sharing a bedroom since you were, like, 11 years old, like your sisters.
- [67:46]
Maria Randazzo
I just thought the way Tina kind of wrote about Michelle, I was like.
- [67:49]
Chelsea Devontez
This feels uncalled for. I mean, there's also the moment at the super bowl, like, which literally, I will get high and watch that and cry once a year. But when Beyonce's dancing and she has like, yeah, Kelly and Michelle pop up, and Kelly lands. And then Michelle, like, almost doesn't make it.
- [68:08]
Matt Whitaker
Almost doesn't make it.
- [68:09]
Chelsea Devontez
And it just feels like a metaphor. Ugh.
- [68:11]
Matt Whitaker
I think it's possible Michelle was grateful to be along for this ride and knew this is how I'm gonna get my gospel album. Which is very quickly what she does as a pivot. I think she releases her own gospel music before Beyonce's solo album.
- [68:31]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, she's the first to go solo.
- [68:33]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah.
- [68:33]
Matt Whitaker
She was like, beyonce can have Kelly. I have Jesus. And that was the dynamic.
- [68:39]
Chelsea Devontez
I think that's right. And so this kind of enters us into this wild period where Matthew is, like, headliners, makes a ton of money. You're the breadwinner now. I'm leaving my corporate six figure job to be these girls manager because I can do it best. Even going back to Star Search, the other parents were like, these girls should come out rapping. And he was like, no, they need to sing, you know, this other, like, melodic song to show their voice as well. And when they lose, he's like, I could have, like, snatched that win. So Tina, with the salon she built to leave him, becomes the breadwinner of the family, taking care of everything as he manages this group. And then in the middle of that, he will cheat or go so far. And then he's also taking their money and making horrible mistakes with it where, like, they have to file for bankruptcy. There's, like, a lien on their house. They have $30,000 left. And they'd been putting out this hair magazine, which was, like, really kind of the first of its kind in the black community of showing, like, the designers and the stylists and the intricate styles. And it became this huge thing but it cost $60,000 a year to produce. And she's like, we only have $30,000. We're out of money. Like, the magazine's done this year. And behind her back, he takes that $30,000 to print a cheap copy of the magazine where all the color bleeds through the pages and it's just a waste. And she finally leaves him, gets her own apartment. My favorite part of this section is that she's talking about this apartment and how it's so beautiful and nice in a two bedroom. And she calls each of her girls, who? It's Kelly, still with her, you know, Beyonce, Solange. And she's like, remember that two bedroom apartment? And they all go, it was a one bedroom apartment. And she's like, no, girls, it was a two bedroom. And every single one of them remembers it as a one bedroom apartment. This is the process of writing a memoir. When I gave my mom the book to read, she, like, fact checked me on, like, little things where I was like. Like that, you know, where it's like, no, it was a one bedroom. It's like, no, no, no, that was only one week. And you're like, that was a year. And how their memories shifted. What did you guys think about this whole, like. And she's leaving Matthew. She tells the girls they're divorcing. They're so distraught. And, like, she's finally done it this time as they are, like, performing and being managed by him.
- [70:55]
Maria Randazzo
I mean, the amount of times that she moved, that they all moved, was incredible. While she's managing headliners, being the breadwinner, managing her daughter's lives, like, trying to show up as a mom for them. Like, just managing and trying to get through so much. I was really struck by something she wrote in the book about Matthew. That does happen later, but she talks about how he would so fiercely defend her if anyone came for her, talked shit about her, put her down, didn't want her on a set, whatever. I felt that that was true when I was reading it. And I was like, this guy has her back. And she said the only person that he allowed to hurt me was himself. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, that is the worst irony imaginable. That is so painful.
- [71:44]
Matt Whitaker
I was angry at Matthew for so much of the book, but I actually, for me, the surprise was how much affection at times she has for him. That I think, in moments of love, but then even moments of appreciating how much he cared about this family. She doesn't shy away from letting the reader know I think why he's cared for as a father by Beyonce, and also why at some of these moments, she stuck with him even while he was being a dirty dog. As a dirty dog.
- [72:22]
Chelsea Devontez
And what's even wilder is during this time, the girls are in high school, and Beyonce and Kelly audition for a performing arts high school. And Beyonce gets in, and Kelly doesn't. Crazy. And so now she has to drive Beyonce to the performing arts school, Kelly to a different school, Solange to a different school. Meanwhile, I'm like, like, how did Kelly and Beyonce survive? Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking of myself at 14, and my friend has gotten into the school, and I have not. But they're still in the group together. And at one point, they get a deal, like, an actual deal. That then it's a long story, but it falls apart. And that's when Matthew's like, I'm fully taking over this. We're gonna get a new deal. And this is like, when the Michelle and stuff like that happens. She has left Matthew, but then at Christmas invites him over, and then at Christmas, she can't stop staring at him. And she's like, I love you. They get back together, and as they finally get a record deal, and it's in this time where she's trying to get Kelly and Beyonce to, like, have a normal life. And Matthew's like, you girls are gonna have a career. One day, she overhears them talking about how there's, like, a high school party and they're not going. And Tina's like, you both are going to that party and you're gonna have fun. And she puts them in the car, and she drives up, and she's like, get out of the car. Go inside. Make some friends. Have a party. They're like 15 years old, and they're like, ugh, we don't want to. She makes them go to a party, and an hour later, Kelly calls her because Beyonce made her. And they're like, we're not having any fun. Come pick us up. And they get in the car, and she's like, I just want you to, like, have fun and have friends. And they say, singing is fun. Dancing is fun.
- [74:02]
Maria Randazzo
Our group.
- [74:02]
Chelsea Devontez
All we want to do is our group. And she was like, okay. And then they get this record deal, and it is teen. I know, but I was also like, I was so happy that they weren't. You know what I mean? So many stage moms are like, you're not going to party. You need to learn your life. Were you guys so shocked at how many things Tina named. Tina names them Destiny's Child. Oh, yeah. Because she preys on it. When I opened my Bible, I saw I left a photo with the heading, A common destiny for all Destiny. I knew that was it. Then they're like, that's copyrighted. And Matthew adds child, and they become Destiny's Child. It's so cool. I know.
- [74:42]
Maria Randazzo
I love that. And am I skipping too far ahead if I say she also named Writings on the Wall?
- [74:47]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, yeah.
- [74:48]
Maria Randazzo
I used to listen to that album, Writings on the Wall. Like, my family would go to bed, and I would lay on the floor with my ear pressed up, up to my little boombox, the whole album top to bottom. So I didn't want to play the music too loud. Like, I don't know why I didn't have headphones, but that album was like. I don't know if y'all really love that album.
- [75:07]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, yeah. The fact that no, no, no, no, no Is sung the way it is because they were running out of time and had to get to a gig. And is it Wyclef who comes late, and he's like, okay, we're gonna have to hurry. And Beyonce goes, oh, what? Like. Like, no, no, no, no, no. And he's like, yes, yes, sing it like that. And before, you know, it was really slow. And that is what made up the first part of the song. There's part one, the slower, sultry R B song. And then part two is the remix that that Wyclef consulted on. And that is the faster version that Beyonce was, like, doing just because, like, they were in a rush. So let's do some headlines. This is when the book becomes, like, a page turner for me. Yeah. There's so many things I underline in this where, like, they're running around. And again, because the record label won't take them seriously, won't send them a stylist. The stylist just sends them, like, black clothes that all look the same. And Tina's like, no, we need four distinct outfits to, like, show these women off. So just for free on her own from the days of, like, little pageant days, working with Johnny, she'll just sew something and what sounds like an hour, which, like, my mom was a seamstress. I'm like, tina, an hour. And then things, like, where they would send shoes, and she's like, we get to Germany, and they sent four pairs of shoes, but one of them only had two left shoes. Beyonce took the hit for everyone. I can handle it. She said, putting on the two left shoes on the red carpet. She turned her foot just so, so that no one would notice. This was her, the peacemaker who could pull off everything. I just.
- [76:57]
Maria Randazzo
I mean, talk about taking one for the team. Like, that's how much of a pro she is.
- [77:02]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And she's just so serious about it, which you can see in, like, the documentaries and stuff. Seeing her as a kid being like this. Yeah. And then they start to take off so much, and she just wants to be around her girls, take care of her girls, make sure they're styled, that she realizes she can't keep headliners, and goes to her main stylist, Abel. I think he was first gen to the country. And she just hands him the keys and she's like, okay, salon's yours now. And he's like, what do you mean? Like, I don't owe you money. And she's like, nope, just pay the rent. This is yours. You've earned it. I'm never coming back. I'm gonna, like, follow my girls on the road.
- [77:35]
Maria Randazzo
And he cried.
- [77:37]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, of course.
- [77:38]
Maria Randazzo
I know.
- [77:39]
Chelsea Devontez
So much is happening. And the way she becomes their stylist is that they're doing something for mtv and they're in Jamaica and they're doing MTV spring break. And the clothes that they're supposed to perform in that the record label sent over don't even arrive. And so she's got a couple hours before the concert. She's like, what are we gonna do? And she remembered in the two hour drive from the airport, they'd seen a little stand that was selling military grade camo prints. Fatigues. Outfits. Is outfits the right word? Fatigue.
- [78:12]
Maria Randazzo
Like shorts. Like shorts, T shirts.
- [78:15]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, yeah. And she goes and gets all the camo material, somehow finds a sewing machine and styles them in their, like, one of the most iconic, like, camo print looks. They're each in their own, like, you know, one's midriff, one's whatever. And she gets these platform boots, and Beyonce's like, I think I'm gonna fall in those. And she's like, it's all I have. She said, beyonce was right about those platform boots. She fell back, but then twisted around and popped back up like it was part of the act. This would become a signature move of hers. Did you guys scream? Yes.
- [78:51]
Matt Whitaker
In her second Super Bowl. Oh, I know. When she debuted formation, that happens. She does fall and gets back up as if it's part of the choreography. Does not miss a beat.
- [79:03]
Maria Randazzo
Doesn't miss a beat. Just pops right back up.
- [79:05]
Matt Whitaker
Boom.
- [79:05]
Maria Randazzo
Keep going. Like, amazing, isn't it?
- [79:07]
Chelsea Devontez
In the Crazy in Love music video where she's, like, stomping forward and you think she falls, but then it catches herself. Yeah.
- [79:14]
Maria Randazzo
And you're like, yeah.
- [79:16]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes.
- [79:16]
Maria Randazzo
I mean, the story of Tina just being like, oh, we need something. We need something. We need something. Oh, I remember I saw a little roadside stand. Let me pop in the car and go, make all of you look incredible. Like, making something out of nothing. Making something beautiful out of the scraps in the bin. Like you said from the fabric when she was growing up. And that is lemonade. You know, I love that through line in this book. And I love that through line in Beyonce's music, too. I just thought that was so incredible. Like, she just really. Blood, sweat, in tears. She gave her life to Destiny's Child. Her life.
- [79:51]
Matt Whitaker
She also really cares about them being distinctly black. And as a result, Beyonce and the rest of them also really care about that. And so it creates all of these tension moments with their outfits or with their hair where it's clear, you know, the label or the stylist photographer on a shoot don't like that Annie Leibowitz asked Beyonce to put her hair in a bun. And Tina knows that this is something that a white photographer is gonna say because they're uncomfortable with black hair and think it's going to take too long or they don't know how it's gonna turn out. But Tina is there to defend them and even throwfists herself because she just genuinely cares about, you know, the statement that they're making as black women and.
- [80:43]
Chelsea Devontez
Also Texas women, too, where they would be like, their hair's too big. They look pageant y. And she was like, that's the point. It's a show. Basically, the record labels would be like, well, they're not gonna cross over to white audiences because the outfits they wear should be something they could buy at, I don't know, Aeropostale.
- [80:59]
Maria Randazzo
Wet Seal.
- [81:00]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, Wet Seal. And she was like, no, it's a show. They should be dazzled. They should want these clothes.
- [81:06]
Maria Randazzo
She shouted out, cher and the Bob Mackie dresses as, like, inspiration. Yeah.
- [81:10]
Chelsea Devontez
And also, it's like, another thing that. Exactly what you're saying, Matt, where they're like, oh, well, they're like, not wide enough. When you have, like, literal decades of history proving Gina's point. And you're just gonna ignore it and be like, nah, no one likes sparkly dresses. Even though Bob Mackie changed everything. And she also. Who else on the shoot? She went to Maxwell, right? Yeah. They put A hat on him to cover up his hair. And she took the hat off and was like, he will not be wearing this. And they're like, are you his manager? She's like, no, I'm Tina Knowles. And you can, like, put the white girls in buns if you think it's so chic. She wrote this, she said. When I tried working with designers, the reality was that many did not want to give their clothes to these curvy black girls. And even if I did work out a deal with a designer to do the wardrobe for an appearance or shoot, I needed four equal, distinct looks. And that was always a problem because I noticed early on that even the best designers often had what they called star clothes. One specific look or dress that was the one in the collection or maybe two that were super strong. And so this woman sews everything for years, all four outfits for years and years and years. But I laugh every time I think it's like one of my first Instagram posts, like, back in 2020, 2012, is when you see a group of friends and they've pulled a Destiny's Child where, like, they're all wearing the same thing but slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. And right now, it's happening a lot with, like, girls in, like, black bodysuits and wide leg light wash jeans. And it's just like, all friends who all look the same, but, like, one has a ponytail and one has a braid. And I was like, they're pulling a Destiny's Child. I don't know. Their looks are so famous. And to know she was getting shit for it the whole time that they were all begging her to stop. And it's like. Like, their looks are part of what made them stars, and they made her feel bad for it. Like, you're not a real designer. You didn't go to design school. Like, you're nobody.
- [82:55]
Matt Whitaker
And once they become hugely popular and once the world does start to love their style, then suddenly people are assuming that clothing they have is made. There's one red carpet moment where people assume Beyonce is wearing Givenchy and it's something that Tina made for her, and.
- [83:15]
Maria Randazzo
She goes, I just let them think it was Givenchy. She didn't even correct them. She just let them think it was the designer.
- [83:20]
Matt Whitaker
She's like, that's compliment to me, I guess.
- [83:22]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Yeah. One of the big heartbreaks of the book for me is how she always felt like she was less than and didn't belong there and didn't deserve to be a stylist because she didn't have these credentials and that the whole world looked down on her. They tried to fire her all the time. And Matthew and Beyonce had to be like, my mom is our stylist. Leave us alone. Where? From the outside. I've always known Tina did their looks. And it's always been, like, the most incredible, coolest, most beautiful thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I just assumed everyone respected this and thought it was amazing. And to know that she was almost getting fired every time is like. Yeah. It was just heartbreaking that she, like, didn't get to feel what I think the rest of the world felt when we saw them.
- [84:05]
Matt Whitaker
And that she internalized it with insecurity because of Catholic nuns. Truly.
- [84:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes.
- [84:11]
Matt Whitaker
She keeps bringing that up.
- [84:12]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah.
- [84:13]
Chelsea Devontez
The witches, right? Okay, so there's a moment with Kandi Burruss, okay? Real Housewife and Shakespeare, this famous writing duo they had written on no scrubs. Also, TI's wife Tiny had co written on that song, as well as TLC's Lisa Left Eye Lopez. But, you know, they had written no Scrubs and they had done a bunch of other hits. And Matthew hired Candy and Shay Shakespeare to write on their second album and produce on their second album. And they let Beyonce write and produce and take the reins. And then they realize that Kandy and Shakespeare are giving her her due and letting her be a part of the process in a way that previous producers hadn't let Beyonce because, you know, she was young or a woman or whatever. And Beyonce learns to start to produce and make the music. I thought that was so cool. Cause also, I was like Real Housewives.
- [85:06]
Maria Randazzo
I just wanted to take a quick second to acknowledge the craziest track of all time that I forgot about. Until this book, which is the Godfather intro track to Writings on the Wall.
- [85:17]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes. Wait, will you tell that story?
- [85:19]
Maria Randazzo
I was on the floor. So they're in the studio, and they were just, like, relaxing one day, and all the girls in Destiny's Child watched the Godfather and they just got a kick out of it. Loved the Marlon Brando voice and all that. And one of them had the idea to, like, do a little intro where they were kind of all doing, like, the voices, and they kind of, like, Italiano'd all of their names, which of course I love. But I forgot about this track until I read the book. And I remember when I was in junior high listening to it, that opening track would come on, and I would always be like, I don't get this, because I hadn't seen the Godfather, and I would just kind of skip over and be like, I don't know what they're doing. But the rest of the album is so good. But Tina wrote about it in the book to be like, it was so cool that the girls had this idea for this intro, and then they let them do it. And it was the first thing on the album. I mean, a huge swing, in my opinion.
- [86:12]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, yeah. And also, it's like teenage girls doing their Godfather sketch. When the Godfather is thought of, it's usually like a cinema bro thing, you know? Yeah.
- [86:21]
Maria Randazzo
I thought it was funny, cool, and just so weird in the best way.
- [86:26]
Matt Whitaker
Years later, you're watching the Godfather and being like, it's weird that Francis Ford Coppola was referencing Destiny's Child.
- [86:32]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah.
- [86:33]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. So we kind of. You know, there's so much in the book. We've bounced around in our timeline. We've already talked about Michelle, but at this point, she writes by that winner. Sadly, latoya and Latavia would no longer be with the group. Beyonce saw it as the end of a marriage of 10 years, and she began to grieve it as such. Negative rumors began. Blah, blah, blah. And that is then when they bring in the next two girls. And that's where I was like, Tina, they just left the group.
- [86:57]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah. So much.
- [86:58]
Chelsea Devontez
Missing half a sentence. Like, you're not telling us any. Like, why would they leave this group that was so successful and blowing up? And she acknowledges the rumors, but never says what really happened. Like, what, they got bored.
- [87:11]
Matt Whitaker
And again, the detail with which she talks about why Haret left the Vel Tones. And this is just sort of a peaceful. Got interested in something else.
- [87:23]
Chelsea Devontez
Yep, they left. Beyonce was sad. Anyways, we were scrambling to find Michelle, think she had a mustache, but get in the crib.
- [87:29]
Maria Randazzo
The fourth girl who left when Michelle got added, another girl got added. And the way she wrote about that other girl was like.
- [87:35]
Chelsea Devontez
She was like. She was so nice, but didn't work.
- [87:36]
Maria Randazzo
Out, didn't pan out.
- [87:37]
Chelsea Devontez
And then she was like, oh, yeah, she was there, too. But then she wasn't, which is. It's Farah Franklin. And she was there for five months, not long. And then Tina's like, yep, it's fine. And it's like, it's not fine. What's happening? I know. And clearly, like, we know Beyonce and Matthew have really high. I mean, the documentary. When she is gonna perform in Coachella. And she's like, I have eaten half of a piece of salmon once this month and four vegetables and rehearsed 18 hours a day. And if you cannot match me at this level, then get out of. I was like, yeah, she takes it really seriously. Probably this happened here.
- [88:18]
Matt Whitaker
And at the end of that moment, she's like, okay, so we're gonna get it tomorrow. All right. All right. And they're like, okay, yes. Thanks. Happy birthday. Like, yeah.
- [88:28]
Chelsea Devontez
And then Jay Z's like, ho, ho. Well. And we're very appreciative. And I was like, wow. I didn't know Jay Z was good cop in this relationship. He was like, and we really appreciate you. Beyonce's already walked away. That's, like, one of my favorite moments of documentary, just seeing, like, how serious she takes it. So clearly something happened here. Tina's giving us none of it, or someone deleted it at this time is when there's all this back and forth. They're calling Tina's outfits homemade, even though they're, like, out doing everything. When they try and fire her, he walks into a meeting at Sony. He turns the lights off in the meeting, lets them sit in the darkness. They're like, what the hell is happening? Then he turns him back on and says, destiny's Child is keeping the fucking lights on in here. Don't you ever forget that.
- [89:09]
Maria Randazzo
I love that.
- [89:10]
Chelsea Devontez
And then he walks out. I was like. And that's where you're like, okay, yeah, that's really. That's. Yeah. Okay. So there's so much to get through, basically. They have so much success, but then they start to go solo. Michelle's first, then Kelly, then Beyonce's album. And they tell Beyonce her album, Dangerously in Love. They're like, there's no hits on this. It sucks. And Beyonce's like, no, it's ready. And they're like, no, it's not. You have no singles.
- [89:38]
Matt Whitaker
They tell her Crazy In Love is not a hit. And so then she goes and calls Jay, who's become a friend. They're talking on the phone all the time, a friend. And he adds his verse to it. You know, they make it a collab, and then they bring it back to the label, and suddenly they say, this is a single because of this.
- [89:58]
Chelsea Devontez
Like, oh, a man who's been in the business has, like, co signed. But what's crazy is that she says, the album told me I didn't have one hit on it. I guess they were kind of right. I had five now to talk about Jay Z a little bit. And then we gotta talk about Solange. Shit, we haven't even gotten a slouch. Oh, my God. Okay, so have you guys been privy to the Discourse that Jay Z met Beyonce when she's like 16, 17, and it was like an underage relationship. And then when she's 18, they kind of come out and there's been weird moments where they're both asked how they met when they met, and they like, like stumble and have said things wrong because again, she was so young. And with the very crushing recent allegations of, like, Jay Z going after young women as a history of his. So in the book, I was looking for it, according to Tina Knowles headline, they meet when Beyonce is 20. But Beyonce told Seventeen magazine in an older interview that they met when she was 18 and started dating when she was 19. But then Jay Z on Charlie Rose told him that he and Beyonce met in 1997, which would have made Beyonce 16. And then in the book, Jay Z's just there one day at an age appropriate time, and then later she's discussing their wedding like the end. What do you think of this marriage, this relationship? What's in the book?
- [91:30]
Matt Whitaker
I mean, the early moments of it make me uneasy in terms of, you know, an age difference and also a power imbalance that she's not writing about it in a way that's shady, but just imagining kind of like the cusp that they were on and what he already represented success wise, that's just a very particular dynamic for someone who is at her age. And so it then feels like we just skip forward to parenthood and adulthood. And Tina speaks so glowingly about him as a father. But it is really in that entirely missing section on Lemonade where I feel like this book had an opportunity, I think, to just even mention that a lot of the things that people criticize Beyonce for in terms of like acknowledging his infidelity but still standing by her man, that that's really a part of Tina's story for so long and for so many years. And so I don't feel as if I, aside from an anecdote here and there, I don't feel like I know Jay better or understand their relationship much better.
- [92:50]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [92:51]
Matt Whitaker
But if there's a question like, however, could Beyonce stay with him? I do think that as Lemonade suggests, there are patterns that keep sort of playing out in the next generation of a family.
- [93:07]
Chelsea Devontez
That was the loudest message to me in the book where she's like, Jay Z was there. Their wedding was nice, they had kids. Right. Just barely there because again, she liked a pose. Being like, Jay Z is a cheater who doesn't deserve Beyonce. Whatever the post said. And then was like, I was hacked Just kidding. You know, like, very. And there's the famous kick in the elevator. Fully skipped over. Yeah.
- [93:31]
Matt Whitaker
As we record this in, you know, the first week in May with the Met Gala. Yeah. I was kind of waiting for those details, and, you know, not a mention at all.
- [93:42]
Chelsea Devontez
Right. But what spoke so loudly to me is Tina taking Matthew back over and over and over again and how that was modeled for Beyonce. Beyonce grew up with. When you think, like, how could you stay with a man who cheated on you? Like, she has seen how you do it. And how Tina does continue to have so much love and acceptance and forgiveness for him. And also they're working towards something bigger where they are putting their daughters first so intensely. Her as stylist, hair stylist. Like, she fixes everything on tour. She shows up to every photo shoot he's managing. He's doing these business decisions, like, regardless of. She, like, finds out he's having affairs while, like, they're on tours, but she's putting the girls first. And how you. Whatever you want to think about it, it sounds like it's a repetition of it, just kind of heartbreaking. And there's more. Matthew, we're going to get to in a second, but first, we need to talk about Solange. So I thought it was. Was so cool how she wrote about Solange because she really acknowledged the difference between the two of them in that Solange goes and wins the same talent show that Beyonce won all those years ago. And Solange has all this talent, and she wants to take Solange on the road with the girls, but Solange doesn't want to go. She's just a different kid who's like, I want stability. She participates in this thing called God's Pound.
- [95:02]
Maria Randazzo
Oh, yeah, the God Pound.
- [95:04]
Chelsea Devontez
Does anyone know it? Guys. What a name. I was like, what is this? It's like a youth group, but, like, with responsibility. Yeah.
- [95:11]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah. I don't. I've never heard of it, but I thought the name was so funny.
- [95:15]
Chelsea Devontez
But then she starts living with another family so that they can go on the road, but Solange can have stability, which you're. Then is like, oh, my God. Kelly is given to their family. Solange is given to Cheryl, but is also like, I don't want to come with you guys. And Tina says she's never gonna go more than four days without seeing her daughter. And one time, like, gets a surprise day off and flies back to visit Solange. And Solange is mad. She's like, this Wednesday is God's Pound. I can't have Dinner with you. You're disrupting my life. Why didn't you tell me? And it's just a child who needs structure. Schedule and structure and stability. And it's just not what Tina has to offer, but is also like to be the baby sister. And your mom and dad are flying all over as your older sister explodes.
- [96:05]
Matt Whitaker
This book actually flipped my expectation because Beyonce is such a Virgo and is so attentive to detail. And meanwhile, Solange is this poet. Tina says, you know, Beyonce's an artist, and Solange is art. But as children, Solange is the one who, like, really needs order and really, you know, holds fast to her schedule and her customs.
- [96:31]
Chelsea Devontez
And then when there's, like, just. I could picture it so well where, like, girls time is performing, and Solange is too young to be in it, but she wants to be around. But then also, Solange would be like, you're doing that move wrong. That harmony's off. And the girls would be like, shut up, Solange. She sends the girls to therapy. She finds them a black therapist.
- [96:49]
Maria Randazzo
Brilliant.
- [96:49]
Chelsea Devontez
It's really important to me. He's also a gay man. And they go to therapy, and Beyonce learns to, like, protect her sister and work through her frustrated emotions. So that next time in rehearsal when they're like, solange, get away from us. Beyonce is like, no, this is my sister. And she is. I was, like, crying. I was like, oh, my God.
- [97:08]
Maria Randazzo
Such a brilliant, brilliant move ahead of her time once again.
- [97:12]
Chelsea Devontez
She has so many mothering lessons throughout this, like, teaching. Oh, my God.
- [97:17]
Maria Randazzo
So, so unbelievable. And I think you can tell that they're so close.
- [97:20]
Chelsea Devontez
Tina as a mom. I was like, I was crying. Like, there's one time when she gets Beyonce, like, this little white fur jacket, and she goes to school, and these two girls make fun of her. And she comes home, Heckle and Jekyll. Heckle and Jekyll, great names. And Beyonce comes home and is like, I don't want this jacket anymore. Like, it's ugly and stupid. And she's like, why do you think that? And she said, heckle and Jekyll said it was gross and I'm stupid. And Tina, instead of being like, they're just jealous of you, which we've all heard, but they are. They are jealous, right? Anyways, she's like, I have an idea. Go to school. Give them the jacket. And she's like, they don't want it. They think it's ugly. And Tina's like, just try. And she goes to school, and she's like, here, you guys. Can have it. And they're like, we love it. It's the most beautiful thing ever. And they wear it all the time. And Tina's like, here's your lesson. People will be cruel to you because they want what you have. And Beyonce's like, oh, my God. And I was just like, what a mom.
- [98:03]
Maria Randazzo
I know.
- [98:04]
Chelsea Devontez
Anyways, so back to Solange. Solange is, like, doing her own thing. And then this. This scene. My jaw's on the floor. They are on their way to the Grammys. They're in the black car. They're in the limo. And Beyonce has gotten out of the car to go win a ton of Grammys in 2004. And Solange is like, hey, Mama, wait. I need to talk to you. And Tina needs to get out of the car because Beyonce's doing multiple costume changes. She's made the costumes. And Solange said, I want you to know you've been the best mother. And you did it. Didn't do anything wrong. And Tina says, all right. And then Solange says, I'm pregnant and I want to get married. Tina writes, I managed a stunned okay and repeated, I love you. I hoped my hug could say what I could not. She knew I had to go. And maybe she had timed this. Yes, obviously, she had timed this for when, like, I couldn't stay in the conversation. And Solange is 17 years old. She's pregnant. And to Tina, she says, I'm not gonna live very long, so I wanna start my life now. And she feels that way because the therapist she kept seeing as a child had died of AIDS every week. She had, like, spoken to this man about, like, all of her feelings, and he was so wonderful for her, and she lost him. And then she loses another friend to gun violence. And she's just seen so much death in her life that she's like, I wanna get my life started. At the same time, I remember thinking, Jamie Lynn Spears is getting pregnant so young. Ashley Simpson starts her life and marriage. And as mother, so young, it's these younger sisters who I. I don't know. I'm drawing a pattern here of, like, they have to make their own stability and importance and value in life because all the energy is going to their older sister, maybe because she stands by this wedding, and it's like, she's 17 years old, but I guess she's gonna get married. They get married three days after that. She's getting her dress from David's Bridal. Tina's making the bridesmaid dresses for Beyonce. Kelly and Angie again. Michelle Ain't at that wedding. Angie, the cousin who. Who is the daughter, is there, and she moves to Idaho to follow him for his football career and then later divorces him. But, like, it's not written like, I fucking told you so. And why'd you do this? It's just, like, Solange had to do that, right? Yes. What'd you guys think of that section?
- [100:28]
Maria Randazzo
I just thought it was really beautiful how Tina, like, supported her. Like, she expressed her opinions to her, but it didn't seem like she was forcing her to go in either direction. And, yeah, I just thought she really modeled. Just such incredible parenting throughout the whole book. The pattern that you're talking about with the younger sisters and the superstar older sister, that's really fascinating to me.
- [100:52]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. This was a moment where, like, listen, I'm not gonna question Tina's judgment. I'm not a mother. But. But given that it is the wrong decision in that, like, the marriage doesn't stay. You are 17 years old. Like, she's worried that Solange is throwing her career away. I don't know this. I have very complicated feelings about this and that it's framed as something beautiful. But, like, what if it was a kid really needing something they couldn't ask for and so they had to go and make it this way? I don't know. I was mad at Solange in this book. Look, why? Like, okay, like, later, when she's like, mom, how do I make a chicken? And her mom forgets the step to tell her, like, to put it in a pan, and then the chicken messes up, and she calls her, and she's like, I'm mad at you. This is your fault that I made the chicken wrong. And then Tina's laughing, but also upset and is cooking herself and burns the skin off her leg down to the bone. Because Solange was being like, this is all your fault that I made this chicken wrong. And I was like. Like, this is rude. Like, why was that your take?
- [101:53]
Maria Randazzo
Oh, yeah. I couldn't tell if Solandra called her back and was seriously mad or she was like, mom, lol. I did it. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell what the subtext was because Tina said she was, like, laughing so hard. But I don't know. Tina might have found it funny.
- [102:09]
Chelsea Devontez
Either way, okay.
- [102:11]
Matt Whitaker
I have always loved Solange as someone who's very, I think, artistically uncompromising and really just committed to trying new things, not adhering to the same kind of pop standards. And I don't know. I think that she's always staying within the family, always staying within music. But it's clearly very important to Solange to do it differently and to do it her own way. And so I think her early pregnancy and early marriage was kind of a defiance. But also, I do wonder, you know, like, Tina first became a grandmother to Solange's son, and if maybe the retelling of it is a little bit different because, you know, you wouldn't really want her grandson to be kind of reading it or living through that memory as something where she did something wrong and that was a mistake. And also, I think to Solange's credit, I mean, she still, you know, got in the studio and still had this ambition. And I've been there at Radio City Music hall cheering her on in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with Beyonce's music or being a Beyonce fan. So I think in terms of her artistry and in terms of security camera footage from the Met Gala that year, it doesn't necessarily surprise me if Solange is being blunt with members of her family at certain times or having a little less patience than we would maybe want to read about on the page.
- [104:03]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, such a good point. You just brought up the Met Gala. Actually, I'm a Solange fan. I'm sorry, I take it all back. It's like the one family member who's like, this is not okay. Why are you all acting like this is okay? What you're doing is not okay. I'm gonna kick it Jay Z because he's as Beyonce. I mean, it's the craziest footage we've all ever seen of anyone, of just a completely stoic Beyonce. As Solange is standing up for her sister, obviously, in a way that, you know. Right. She cannot or does not want to do, and that she's kind of been doing that her whole life, kicking at the things, being like, this is wrong.
- [104:34]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah. And to consult the text that is flawless off of self titled Beyonce has the line, my sister taught me how to speak by mind. And that is not necessarily the younger sibling archetype, necessarily, that you'd expect to teach their older, more famous sister how to speak her mind. But it's clear that Solange was having that influence on Beyonce.
- [105:02]
Chelsea Devontez
So you're right. There's always one kid in the family who's like, everybody, what the fuck are you doing? And yeah, you're right. You're right. That was Solange. I was just mad at the chicken moment.
- [105:12]
Maria Randazzo
I got you. I mean, that was crazy.
- [105:14]
Chelsea Devontez
I was like, why are you Yelling at her for not knowing a chicken goes in a pan.
- [105:17]
Maria Randazzo
Also, Solange, hop on the Internet. You don't have to call your mom to be like, how do I do this? Then? Also, youngest children, I think, can often be in a position where you are an observer. I'm the youngest of four, and I just am, like, my whole life, I've just been constantly watching everybody. And so I think that is also the position that Solange occupies as well, is like, the sage observer.
- [105:38]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [105:38]
Chelsea Devontez
So I think that's such a good point. Yeah.
- [105:41]
Matt Whitaker
And it says that she's doing that musically, you know, while Destiny's Child is touring, like, at moments when she was with the group, she's not just listening to Destiny's Child again and again. If they're in Jamaica, she's listening to the music that's in Jamaica, and she's bringing more global sounds into her own, like, influence set and then putting that into her own music. So I was kind of interested to see that musical evolution for Solange.
- [106:08]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. What I really liked is that she could have felt the pressure to be like, both my children are equal, and I love my children equally, and they're both, you know, and she really just let them distinctly have their own paths in this book. I just thought it was really, really well done. And then we get into kind of the last stretch of the book where, like, first off, she creates a house of Darion with Beyonce, which. Not enough about that, because then she's like, oh, and then we sold it. I'm like, why? But she does talk about these jeans she makes where she puts darts in the waist to make them smaller so that your ass fits. And I said, please, please, please start the jeans line again. Why didn't I have a pair of these?
- [106:47]
Maria Randazzo
Where are they now?
- [106:48]
Chelsea Devontez
Where are they now? EBay. I'm all right. I'm going to check ebay before this episode comes out, in case there's still a pair there. So. March 2009. Matthew told me he had recently ended an affair. And he told me that my forgiveness would be key to his recovery. Okay. That key might set him free, but I knew it would trap me again. And he's begging for her back, and she is like, we've sacrificed so much for our girls. Okay? He says he's changed. I need to forgive him. I'm gonna stay with him. And then she's leaving an event, and they say, tina, how do you feel about today's developments? And she's like, I don't know. Having a great day, and she goes home and realizes that Matthew has been served with paternity papers for this affair he told her he ended and that he fathered a child with this woman and that she's serving him for paternity. And she said it was time to leave him. And I filed for divorce, and, like, it was finally over. And this coincides, I believe, with Beyonce removing him as her manager and finally going solo. So this is obviously a crazy year with this family. This is when Beyonce does the album four, which is my favorite Beyonce album of all time. And then there's this song on Dangerously in Love called Daddy. So she had written this about her dad, you know, years later, they're obviously going to go through a lot together. She's going to remove him. Clearly, Tina's not trying to write the dirt, but, like, there's a time in Beyonce's life when she's not even speaking to her father at one point and won't let him hold the baby later on in life, and then they're slowly coming back together. But at one point, she had written this song, Daddy, that I have cried to way too many times. I remember I was working on a cruise ship at the time when I would just listen to Beyonce, and I would listen to Four over and over again, Dangerously in Love. And I would cry to the song, daddy, listen, the wine was a dollar on a cruise ship. And then there's this lyric in there where Beyonce gets a tattoo and is like, oh, God, it's hideous, and what have I done? And she confesses to her dad, who told her never to get a tattoo. Like, I did it. I got this tattoo. And instead of being mad at her, he tells her that he will get the same tattoo as well. That, like, he and Tina will get the same tattoo that she. She did. Is what they say, that they would do this. I don't know why this could make me cry. I don't know why this makes me cry, but I'm just like, that is the most beautiful thing ever. And so she removed him as her manager. Not to mention he's been cheating on Tina. And it's just so intense and layered and so much of the story is missing. Like, did the paternity suit come out? And then Beyonce removes him? Did Beyonce remove him and need independence? And then the paternity thing happens. Like, you know, he's your dad who managed you and taught you everything and means so much to you. But then also, he's like, has a second family, and what he's done to your mom, it's just awful. Tina has finally left him and she's devastated. She's like, I can't believe I'm going to be divorced this age. But then I met a man. This is in the book. She says, I met a man and I began to have an affair. And it was a man I never expected to fall in love with. And you turn the page and she was like, it's Matthew. I know.
- [110:13]
Maria Randazzo
I was like, you are kidding me with this.
- [110:16]
Matt Whitaker
She had an it's complicated with Matthew.
- [110:20]
Chelsea Devontez
Knowles, which, by the way, I think is a perfect rom com. It's sucks that Alec Baldwin's in it, but perfect rom com. It's complicated. Yeah, But I was like, kevin, Carl Leary, Tina Knowles, how dare you set us up for an affair. And it's fucking Matthew again.
- [110:34]
Maria Randazzo
Good reveal, though.
- [110:36]
Chelsea Devontez
Ah, so then the next, like, I mean, this is page 332. It's gonna go to almost 400. She divorces Matthew, what, 12 times.
- [110:47]
Maria Randazzo
So many times.
- [110:48]
Chelsea Devontez
There's so many, like, goodbye, Matthew, Matthew's back. Goodbye, Matthew. Matthew's back. Surprise. I've been secretly dating your father. And Solange and Beyonce are like, no, don't do that.
- [111:00]
Matt Whitaker
As she's been hanging out by herself, they think in Galveston, they show up to surprise her and hang out with her and she has to be like.
- [111:08]
Chelsea Devontez
Matthew, hi, Matthew, go out the back door.
- [111:11]
Maria Randazzo
That was a great scene. I thought that that was like one of my favorite things to read in the book. It was just like, so funny.
- [111:16]
Chelsea Devontez
Hiding their father's own father. French farce on Mother's Day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [111:21]
Maria Randazzo
I loved it. I just have to say, she really cracked me up when she would talk about, like, I kept thinking about Beyonce or Solange or like, anyone in their family reading the book and just being like, ew, ew, ew. Too much. She talked about like, their passion and like, like, basically they're like sexual escapades in a way that was so like of her generation, you know, the night Solange was conceived, the passion was whatever. And I was just like, I love this woman so much. She's just so cracks me up in the way she talks about this stuff.
- [111:50]
Matt Whitaker
Eventually she gets to a moment where Matthew crashes with her and she says, like, no funny business tonight. And in fact, he just stays on the couch, they go to bed, they wake up, they part ways, and she's so proud of herself and of both of them that they did not sleep together. That, like this late in the book, it's like, okay, well, the sex was good, apparently. Throughout all of these stages.
- [112:18]
Maria Randazzo
I'm happy for her for that.
- [112:21]
Chelsea Devontez
But also, I'm just so. I'm like, yeah, because he's been getting practice his whole life. He's just picking up new, new skills here and there. It's such a frustrating part of the book, but also so cool. She wrote about it and you're kind of like, why would she do this? Why would she do this? And then she has this paragraph. I'd been married 33 years and my husband consistently cheated on me. The obvious conclusion was always that I must not be good enough. There were times I didn't feel attractive. But more important, I wrote, people don't respect me as a designer. I'm not formally educated, so people make fun of me. Then later she writes, matthew Knowles was a businessman ahead of his time. But I played a huge part in the success of Destiny's Child. I was the girl's day to day manager, even though I didn't have the title. And a lot of creative ideas that they executed so beautifully came from me. It was never important to me that I get credit, but I had never given myself credit. And then she wrote, I realized I had a codependence problem. She said, I learned that it felt good to care for others because it came with accolades that proved my worth. And this is the Matthew thing where she never felt worthy of a love that didn't cheat. She was like, well, then I must not be good enough. And this also explains everything she's ever done, you know, and in this beautiful way, she's done everything for her daughters, but she's also proving her worth to herself. And so then we enter our Stella Got Her Groove Back days and she's like, it is time for me to date me. Yeah.
- [113:54]
Maria Randazzo
I love that. I love that though. I thought that was so cute.
- [113:57]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, I really did. Yeah.
- [113:59]
Matt Whitaker
Speaking of it's complicated, my favorite genre of movie is empowered divorcee comedy. And that's essentially what this book becomes.
- [114:09]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
- [114:11]
Chelsea Devontez
It's so true. I mean, she even writes like, I compensated for a loss by going on Instagram to announce it was was corny joke time. And she's talking about, like, losing her brother Skip who passed and how he always made these jokes. And so then she's gonna, you know, and we all, all three of us, love corny joke time. We'll play a little clip here. Hi. It's corny joke time. So why was the teacher cross eyed? Because she couldn't control her pupils. Her pupils? Pupils in her eyes. The students come on, guys. That's really funny, you know, that it came from her brother Skip. And at the same time, Beyonce has gone through many miscarriages and had had a really huge loss where she was really deep into her pregnancy and lost it. And then she finally gets pregnant and she writes. In October, she did a TV appearance in Australia wearing a dress with a stiff fabric that folded when she sat. Media outlets helped spread a hateful rumor that she was faking being pregnant. There was even an ABC News bulletin calling it a mystery. And then she was like, it was the stupidest. People could not understand how hurtful it was for the media to exploit a life that miraculous and doubt its existence in origin. The worst thing is that people had no idea how hard it was for Beyonce to go through multiple miscarriages. And then when finally a blessing came to to carry a baby to full term, the world starts heckling you as you try and make it to the finish line. I remember that really made me sad. I mean, I remember that video. Do you guys remember seeing that?
- [115:48]
Matt Whitaker
Of course. Yeah.
- [115:49]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [115:50]
Maria Randazzo
Absolutely tragic.
- [115:51]
Matt Whitaker
It's amazing how certain people were that this pregnancy was faked, that Blue Ivy was not their child. And I just gotta give it up to genetics that no one remembers that at this point because Blue Ivy looks so much like her two parents.
- [116:08]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. But it is also. This will be my little personal tie in. It is also this type of stuff that creates so much shame around fertility. It's like, why donor conception. Everyone was told, keep it a secret. Like, people will, like, fuck your life up if they know you had any help or whatever. Or, like, why surrogacy can be so shamed for women who use a surrogate. Obviously there's layers to everything. We talk about this stuff on this podcast all the time. So I won't go into it here, but, like, it's like, oh, if beyond they went through that vitriol, imagine someone who did need to use a surrogate and like the vitriol they get for how they created their child. It's obviously very, very, very complicated. Well, she's trying to get her groove back. And she's like, but I haven't met anyone. I'm devastated. I'm 58, I'm single. Like, who's going to want to be with me? And like, you, Matt. I was like, yes, this is the story I love. We're going to find that we're beautiful and hot. And then she said, making it so, so much worse is that Matthew was about to marry his girlfriend in Houston. I Said you've already found someone to marry you. I didn't, I hadn't paid attention to this. And Matthew gets married in, like, a second.
- [117:16]
Maria Randazzo
I mean, it didn't surprise me. Like, men just, I, I. Older men, like, they just really need to be with somebody. Like, they.
- [117:25]
Chelsea Devontez
We've talked about it on this podcast. Like, men whose wife. Like, I had so many cookies, right. In being like, you know, my mom died, and two months later my dad was like, I'm marrying her nurse.
- [117:33]
Maria Randazzo
They, like, truly like, they, they. Yes. It is a huge pattern. And I think that there are a lot of men of an older age who just do not know how to exist without a woman to fill in the blank, do everything for them, be their emotional support system, stroke their ego, whatever. So I really wasn't surprised by that.
- [117:56]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [117:56]
Chelsea Devontez
And it feels generation, Like a generation of men who were told, you know, your wife will remember everything you need to do that day, literally.
- [118:05]
Maria Randazzo
Yeah.
- [118:06]
Matt Whitaker
And, yeah, I think also he's probably spinning about not having Beyonce anymore. So I don't know if there's just even a sense of control he feels like he needs to have. And a marriage is where he's gonna find that. But I also, of course, think it's the thing where he probably can't take care of himself because, yeah, he's an old boy.
- [118:27]
Chelsea Devontez
Listen, and to give him as much grace as I can hypothetically muster, this is where he finds his worth, where he's like, gotta have a lady who loves me and needs me, begging me to come back when I cheat on her. Okay, y'all. So I woke up at four in the morning with a panic. Yes, I had drank a lot of wine the night before, so I was having a wine panic. But my thought was I never looked at Matthew Noel's Instagram as part of my research. And so at 4 in the morning, I looked at his Instagram, and I need to tell you these things in a pickup on this podcast right now. They're relevant. So here's what I found on his Instagram, and I, you know, it just feels pertinent. Feels like y'all need to know. So two days ago, Matthew Knowles posted Tina, congratulations on your New York Times number one bestseller matriarch, which is like, you know, he's being gracious even though she spills the tea on this. So you're kind of like, oh, that's beautiful. Tina has liked it. It important to know on this post that Matthew signs his Instagram posts. So after he's written that, that caption, there's a space space. And then he signs it Matthew, which is also kind of endearing, thinking out about both of them and their use of Instagram. What's weird is that Matthew Knowles also has a book. It is not a New York Times bestseller. It is an Amazon bestseller. He posted about it on April 26th. 6th. And it is called the DNA of Achievers. 10 traits of highly Successful Professionals. And his big business right now is being a motivational speaker. And some of his posts, he will post videos of Beyonce. And he's like, you can hire me to speak on building the brand of Beyonce and, like, how to build a Beyonce. And I can only imagine how that is going over in the family. And then finally, this man posted about his new wife, Gina Avery Knowles, full name. And here's the caption. Happy birthday to my best friend, the love of my life, and my wife, Gina Avery Knowles. And like, look, I get it. We get remarried, we find new loves. But you were with Tina Knowles for 30 years. Like, maybe just use a different phrase to make your new wife, Gina Knowles feel loved. I don't know. Just saying. And then finally, this is. Listen, sometimes social media is stupid. Sometimes it tells a story. Tina Knowles, 4 million followers on Instagram. Matthew Knowles. Not even a hundred thousand. Some food for thought. Okay, back to the episode. Well, well, Tina starts. This is. I will say I'm gonna give huge flowers. This is the only book in the history of celebrity memoirs. When they start to write about all the charity work they've done, I don't roll my eyes. All of it was woven into stories before. And when she is talking about how to do charity work, that matters. She's teaching lessons, she's giving you tips, she's talking about how to do it. What matters, how she devotes her life to mentoring young girls. They're called Tina's Angels. I. It just, it was so real and authentic that I loved reading about it. When usually you're reading about, like, Priyanka Chopra being like, actually, I started a foundation that helps people, so forgive me for the previous chapter. You know, I loved it. But then she reunites with an old friend who thought she was mad at her. And she's like, we're going on tour and you're not working this time. And we're finding Min this friend. Min. Min. Oh, I love it. She was like, and then we're dieting, we're working out, and we're just trying to find a man for me. And this was again, another movie I'd like to see where Like, Beyonce's performing and. And they're just, like, at the beach, drinking margs, going to the concert in the front row.
- [122:11]
Maria Randazzo
Monica and Monica.
- [122:14]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah, that's right. And Beyonce had said, mom, what makes you happy? What makes you laugh? And she said, my friend Monica. And Beyonce goes, you haven't talked to Monica in, like, eight years. She's like, yeah, she's so funny. She's like, why don't you talk anymore? She's like, I don't know. She's mad at me for something. I just don't remember what. She's like, call her. She's like, hello, Monica. She's like, what do you want? And she's like, well, you're really funny, and I miss you, and I'm sorry. And Monica's like, I've been through hell without you. And she's like, I know. And then Monica's like, okay, well, let's go travel the world together. And I was like, yes. Female soulmates forever.
- [122:49]
Matt Whitaker
Credit to Monica for just the instant turn from I'm mad at you, we haven't been friends for eight years to going, should we just be best friends traveling the world?
- [123:00]
Maria Randazzo
I know. I love Monica. I love this conversation so much. When she was like, come to New York City and visit me. And then Monica was like, only if you pick me up from the airport. And Tina was like, I'm not going to jfk. It's a literal waste of my time.
- [123:14]
Chelsea Devontez
And, Monica, I'll send you a limo.
- [123:16]
Maria Randazzo
And Monica goes, I'm only coming if you come with. If you're there when I get off the plane. And I was like, wait, this is cool, though. This is a friend who was like, I'm tethering you back down to Earth, Tina. Like, I'm so happy for all of the wealth and the beautiful things that the Gnolls have. But, like, yeah, when you have wealth like that, like, you're like, my car will pick you up. But, like, real people go pick each other up at the airport. And so I was like, this friend is bringing her back down to Earth.
- [123:39]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah, but again, I'm bringing you down to Earth. But also, I am bringing myself to the VIP at every Beyonce concert. I love that for Monica.
- [123:48]
Chelsea Devontez
It's also so funny because Tina just gets in the car service drives her to the airport. And listen, we've all lived. You guys currently live in New York. I lived in New York. The ride to the airport, it's an intense. I don't know how to say it. It's like, it could be Three hours of your life on the wrong day. But it's. Tina's not even driving. She's not in a cab. She doesn't have to take the A train. She's just in the limo going there and is there when Monica gets off the plane. And Monica's like, okay, yes, I will join you in the VIP tour section and we will find you a love of your life.
- [124:17]
Matt Whitaker
I do want to mention, as an aspect of the book, there is just sort of this crescendo in wealth that is sometimes not really, like, spoken about, fully passed over, but suddenly a little detail is dropped and you're like, oh, they are so rich now.
- [124:33]
Maria Randazzo
It's like, oh, their seventh house.
- [124:36]
Matt Whitaker
Suddenly it's like in the apartment that we owned on the Upper west side. And that probably is home number four or five.
- [124:45]
Maria Randazzo
Four.
- [124:45]
Chelsea Devontez
Tina.
- [124:47]
Matt Whitaker
And meanwhile, also these moments of the girls decided it was, you know, time to spend a little bit of their money. And they were old enough now they wanted to get a car. And so one of them wanted a Jaguar. Just the instant, just arrival at wealth.
- [125:05]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, yeah. But then Tina makes them buy vans for the church and get a used Jaguar. And she's like, don't worry. And it's actually sweet. She's like, I taught those girls they gotta be giving this money back.
- [125:15]
Maria Randazzo
It'll come back to you. And it did. She was right. She said, you give a little bit right now, you're gonna give a lot back.
- [125:21]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah, there's this always this blend of highbrow and low brow and excess and charity that just is present Tina's whole life.
- [125:33]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. And the fact that they had gone through hard times and filed for bankruptcy. At one point, she writes in the book a sentence that is in my book, which is his champagne taste beer budget. And she was like, this was our life. And so when they finally get gold champagne budget, she's still making sure to give back in ways that were not just, like, for fluff, which was cool, but, yeah, also them getting famous. It's like, wow, okay, so now they're worldwide famous. And you're like, whoa, okay, it just happened. Or she'll be like, the swan house was being swarmed with people. And you're like, what the fuck is the swan house? And she's like, oh, the house on the lake I had bought and I had to give it away. Like, okay. So anyways, she and Monica are out and about, and they're like, where can we meet some men? And she's like, let me call Richard. Who they knew their Whole lives. And he was like a little brother to them. They're like, hey, Richard, where do we meet some men? And Richard is like, come down to my acting class. Red flag, Tina. This is a 60 something year old man. I'm sorry, I'm. Listen, I am in the business. I'm sorry. This will be me one day. I am the red flag. But don't do it. They go down to the acting class, and he's like, what are you looking for? And she's like, you know, hot, handsome, funny. And he's like, what about me? And her first reaction is, ew, no. Out loud to his face. No. Gross. And this, I mean, this really crushed me because Matthew is ruining her life for 30 years. But the way she writes about him, like, you love him and the sex is fine. Richard gets a page and a half, and it's like, Richard was just kind of around, and then he was there. And then we got married. And then the next page is like, there was a morning that I woke up with clarity. My marriage with Richard needed to end. I wanted out. And we have just kind of skipped 10 years.
- [127:20]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [127:21]
Chelsea Devontez
Richard is like, nothing.
- [127:23]
Matt Whitaker
It's nearly a decade. She's so certain. Eh, I'm just kind of over this.
- [127:29]
Chelsea Devontez
But also, like, all the years you lived didn't make it into the book. Right. Like, it really feels like she settled for Richard out of fear.
- [127:37]
Maria Randazzo
Oh, yes, yes.
- [127:39]
Chelsea Devontez
Matthew was married. She wanted to be married. And it's so cool that she gets out of it where it's like, this is not for you. But also, it just. I was just like, oh, no. Yeah. This, like, doorstop took up 10 years of your life, and now they're not even in the book.
- [127:54]
Maria Randazzo
Longest rebound ever.
- [127:56]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah. Richard is unfortunately in the same category as Michelle's mustache in that regard.
- [128:04]
Chelsea Devontez
Michelle's boyfriend might have been a better partner to Tina. Her boyfriend mustache then Richard. Yeah. Oh, hello. I am back to let you know something very important, which is that literal days, maybe the day after news of Tina and his divorce leaks, or when she finally files the divorce papers against Richard, he goes on a Twitter tear, liking egregious porn. Egregious amounts of porn. The type of porn this man is liking, saving, liking, liking, liking to a point that fans are like, damn, he filed for divorce, went on Twitter and went crazy. It's just kind of a funny story. Oh, Richard. Okay, back into the episode. Yeah. And then Rich is just out of the book, and she talks about the hate she receives from women. Being like, you can't Keep a man. And she's like, well, I kept one for 30 years and the next for 10. Like, just really painful stuff where she's like, I wanted to end the book a different way, but, like, it's really like, learning that I am enough alone. And how her girls become her best friends and help her up and help her be like, yes, leave him. Tyler Perry's there being like, you gotta leave Richard. And then the book ends with her finding out that she has breast cancer because she put off getting a biopsy for so long, but survives and recovers. And she was like, I wanted this book to end in this beautiful way with me and all my grandchildren, but instead it's gonna end with me, like, finally taking care of myself and being alone in Malibu, writing this book and, like, surviving breast cancer and getting the Glamour Woman of the Year award. What did you guys think of the ending?
- [129:51]
Matt Whitaker
This was an exclusive. You know, this was the first reveal of her cancer diagnosis right in this book.
- [129:59]
Maria Randazzo
I think you're right. Yeah.
- [130:00]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah. Wow.
- [130:01]
Matt Whitaker
Yeah.
- [130:01]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [130:02]
Matt Whitaker
Which made it very momentous, but also to learn about it in a way that, you know, is herself processing it and having processed it, I don't know, really moved me. And I think it sort of suggested a certain resilience. And I think that there's so much about history and mortality in a way in. That's always present in her story and her family history. So it still felt very triumphant in an authentic way at the end of the book.
- [130:41]
Chelsea Devontez
I totally agree. Yeah. And it's like Beyonce and Kelly and Angie showing up to surprise her, and they're eating ice cream and watching rom coms, and they're like, you don't need a man. Like, you are enough. We love you. It's Beyonce showing up to all her appointments, being, like. Which is important for anyone going through anything to have, like, an advocate there. And the advocate is Beyonce, which. Which we love. Can you imagine, talks about, like, women going through this and getting a second opinion and, like, how important it is. And she ends it with this. She says, I am going to be okay. And that's a new revelation for me. I am 70, and I just learned that I am enough. I wish I would have realized this at 40 or 50, maybe even younger, but that is why I am telling you I have tried to collect as much of that wisdom as I can to pass it on. Here the sun is setting in the darkening sky of autumn, my favorite hue of orange mixing with gold and thinning wisps of blue. I have lingered out on this balcony, watching the waves long enough, knowing I would finish the book. Today, this precious time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end. I know, but my new beginning. Beautiful.
- [131:46]
Maria Randazzo
I want another memoir for this third act of her life.
- [131:49]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [131:50]
Maria Randazzo
I was like, maybe we should do it. Give us this more third. Because I love. It was like a daughter, a mother, a woman. And I'm like, I want more chapters about the woman. That's how I felt. I thought it ended in an absolutely beautiful way. But. But maybe she'll say more.
- [132:05]
Matt Whitaker
I want a memoir about her book tour. For the memoir. You know, she's a.
- [132:10]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes. Yes.
- [132:12]
Matt Whitaker
I hope Monica's with her, traveling around.
- [132:15]
Chelsea Devontez
All I want. Okay, we've got headliners, the sitcom. We've got the It's Complicated Matthew. And we've got Monica and her just traveling and meeting men. These are the three shows I want from this book. Totally. Okay, it is time to do the booktal test. Three questions. We're all gonna answer them. First question. Was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?
- [132:42]
Matt Whitaker
Ultimately, yes. I think more vulnerable in a daughter. That section of the book. And I think for reasons that are, I guess, understandable, if at least predictable, she's leaving quite a bit out about Beyonce and Jay and their own lives and career.
- [133:07]
Chelsea Devontez
Yep. Yep. Maria.
- [133:09]
Maria Randazzo
I agree with Matt. I thought that she was vulnerable in a daughter, the first part, and very vulnerable in the third part, a woman. And the middle part.
- [133:18]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [133:18]
Maria Randazzo
Is I can understand why there is some missing parts, but, yeah, I would say for the most part.
- [133:25]
Chelsea Devontez
Yes. Yeah, yeah. She was vulnerable every time she shared her truth, anytime her truth overlapped with another person's truth, I would say no. But again, understandable. And just imagine how many lawyers looked at this thing. Beyonce's lawyers, Jay Z's lawyers, Solange's lawyers, Matthew's lawyers. Okay, second question. Was it entertaining to read? Yes.
- [133:48]
Matt Whitaker
So entertaining. It is the most entertaining audiobook book I've put into my ears since My Name is Barbara, which not everyone loved. My Name is Barbara being 48 hours long, but if you put it on 1.2 times speed, it brought Tina's memoir from 17 hours to 14. And I realized that the imprint version does not have a little prelude from Beyonce. Solange, Kelly, and Angie, they each do a little introduction just expressing how much they love Tina.
- [134:25]
Maria Randazzo
I need to hear that.
- [134:27]
Matt Whitaker
You also really get a sense of everyone's different personality, you know?
- [134:31]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, my gosh, now I need to get the audiobook. And also, that goes so hand in hand with Matriarch she is their matriarch. But all four of them are now their own matriarchs. And passing it on and changing. Oh, my gosh, changing history. And their family line.
- [134:47]
Matt Whitaker
They're all very heartfelt. And then you get to Solanges, which is. And Solange's like, I am doing poetry. I am. She performs poetry, essentially. I mean, she just.
- [134:58]
Chelsea Devontez
That's amazing.
- [134:59]
Matt Whitaker
Takes it to a much more poetic, artful place.
- [135:02]
Chelsea Devontez
That's so good.
- [135:03]
Maria Randazzo
Which is sick, saying so much, because the family is just so artful and elevated to begin with.
- [135:08]
Matt Whitaker
Two things I remember. Solange says. She goes, thank you for painting Santa Claus black. And she says, thank you for making bird cages out of hair.
- [135:16]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, my God. It's all very gorgeous. God, what a. What a family. That is really my takeaway. And, yeah, for me, absolutely entertaining. What I'll say is that from the section, a mother through a woman, it became a real page turner. A Tina page turner. Tina's also in this memoir. We forgot to mention that I loved it in the last two parts. I was like, jaw on the floor. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way. Way. And if so, what way?
- [135:44]
Matt Whitaker
I'm gonna say it totally elevated my life. I enjoyed it so much, but also, I was so moved by the passing down of their family history. The whole introductory section titled under the Pecan Tree, where her mother is just telling her about all of their ancestors underneath the pecan tree in their backyard. And I don't know if I will have kids, but this week is my niece's fourth birthday. Shout out to Ada. And Ada's a Beyonce fan, too. Amen. Made it onto her Spotify wrapped along with a bunch of Peppa Pigs.
- [136:23]
Chelsea Devontez
Ada.
- [136:24]
Matt Whitaker
But I think it just reminded me that even if it seems a little bit boring, even if it challenges me to find a way to make it fun, that it's really profound to just share these stories of ancestry and genealogy. Matriarch, which seemed like a clever title before I read it, ultimately has all of these, you know, deeper meanings to it. I found it to be a profound and inspiring book along those lines.
- [136:53]
Chelsea Devontez
I love that, Maria.
- [136:56]
Maria Randazzo
Yes, it absolutely elevated my life in so many ways. It, like. Like, fully enriched the family that I already love and gave me so much more information and respect and admiration for them and all the ways that they have lifted each other up and celebrated their culture and celebrated blackness and fought so hard for that. It's such a amazing part of Tina's story and how she advocated for her girls and how Beyonce is carrying that on to her daughter. And so it has enriched Beyonce's art for me. And then on a more personal level, I'm gonna say something that is probably gonna start off sad, but has a positive turn to it, which is that this book has helped me realize something that I'm grieving. And, like, I have come on the podcast and talked about this before. So my mom, she passed away seven years ago, actually. Her birthday was yesterday. So, like, I feel like this book, like, whooshed into my life. I make the sound whoosh a lot when I talk about you, Chelsea. Cause you're just this, like, force that, like, whooshes things into my life in this most beautiful way.
- [138:06]
Chelsea Devontez
But this book honored.
- [138:08]
Maria Randazzo
But I'm like, oh, I would just give anything to be able to sit with my mother and ask questions about our family history. And that is such a huge loss that I have in my life. And it's helping me realize that and feel the pain around that and really just sit with that. But what the positive is is that there's so many other people in my family and women in my family that I want to reach out to and talk to and ask the questions. So it doesn't end because my mother's not here. There are other matriarchs in my family, my sisters, my aunts, that I can reach out to and talk to. So it has elevated my life for sure in this way of. Of also wanting to answer these own questions about my life and my family. So.
- [138:54]
Chelsea Devontez
Oh, I love that so much. Maria. Love that. Yeah, mine. It's interesting how all three of us have a little bit of a similar answer in that it really made me think about mothering a lot. And our plan has always been that if we are going to have kids, we're gonna foster or foster to adopt. But it's also not been this definitive thing. And a lot of that is because I'm just like, one. I'm such. You know how much work it takes to keep this brain intact. Like, it is just a constant job to be, like, stay with it. And the fear that, like, I would let a kid down or that, like, my own brokenness would, like, seep into their life and just, like, really not wanting to mess that up. And the feeling of, like, how could you do it all? Like, how could I do this job? And, like, you know, give a kid everything they needed and, like, yeah, reading her, making headliners to escape this marriage, which then becoming the breadwinner, but then also being able to leave when she was ready and give everything to her girls. It just made me feel like so much was possible. And regardless of, like, becoming a mother or not, of, like, there's so many other community members in their story, from, like, Uncle Johnny to Cheryl, who takes Kelly, you know, to Kelly to Dory. There's just so many people coming together to make this tapestry, mystery that they all weave into their art that it's like, okay, then I don't know what's gonna happen. But I can also be, like a community member. Do you know what I mean? To someone else's life, or be there if, like, a kid needs a place to stay. It just. It really created a desire in me that I. I don't really fully strongly feel all the time, because I'm just like, I'm gonna ruin that. And this made me feel like, no, you could do it. If she can make headliners, I can start a salon in my yard as well.
- [140:39]
Maria Randazzo
Totally.
- [140:39]
Chelsea Devontez
You know, whatever the equivalent is.
- [140:41]
Maria Randazzo
Yes.
- [140:42]
Chelsea Devontez
While caring for her kids and getting them school and all that stuff.
- [140:46]
Maria Randazzo
Absolutely. And she has that beautiful line in the book about when she was talking about Tina's Angels, she was like, you don't have to mentor 26 kids every year. You can mentor one.
- [140:55]
Chelsea Devontez
You can mentor one. I know. That really touched me. I just love her and I adore you both. It was so magical how you both were just like, obviously the guest for this episode. Matt, please tell everyone where they can follow you, find you, support your work if you want that. If you don't want that, direct them elsewhere.
- [141:13]
Matt Whitaker
You can follow me on Instagram Whittak, and you can check out the four seasons now streaming on Netflix.
- [141:22]
Chelsea Devontez
On Netflix, baby. So huge. So huge. Okay, and Maria, tell everyone again, listen to the list. It's gonna just. It's my favorite podcast now, but also, where are all the other places they can find you and follow you?
- [141:36]
Maria Randazzo
Oh, thank you. I'm on Instagram ariafreakingrandazzo. Same thing on TikTok. And yeah, if you're in New York City, I post about all my shows on my Instagram all the time. And I have a little mailing list. So if you wanna know about what my shows are via email, send me a dm. Give me your email. I'll tell you. I do sketch and improv around the city.
- [141:56]
Chelsea Devontez
She's also so funny. Yasser walks into the room all the time, holding up a video of you, and I'm like, I already saw this and liked this. I know how funny, funny this is. But it, like, blows his mind. Also, a lot of Beyonce makes it into Maria's comedy.
- [142:07]
Maria Randazzo
Oh, yeah. Yes.
- [142:08]
Chelsea Devontez
Yeah.
- [142:09]
Maria Randazzo
Thank you. That's so nice. That is so nice. Whenever I'm, like, feeling like I don't want to write or I'm feeling shitty, I just watch a Beyonce video. And I usually also most recent one just I can't get through it without crying. The Beyonce Bowl. This is so stunning.
- [142:23]
Chelsea Devontez
And have you guys seen Rumi coming on stage and, like, losing her mind by how happy she is that she just, like, can't contain that her mom has let her come on stage? Ah.
- [142:32]
Matt Whitaker
And there's a new one as Beyonce brings Tina out on stage to congratulate her on the book. Rumi is out there too, and Rumi's, like, not quite understanding the moment and just sort of sweetly waving at the whole crowd.
- [142:47]
Chelsea Devontez
Okay, gotta watch that one. We'll find it. We'll link it. Thank you both so much for being here. This is now maybe the longest by podcast recording we've ever done, so thank you. Goodbye. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent books stores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.