Viral Article Book Club: Are We All Bad Friends?

Summary

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Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Viral Article Book Club: Are We All Bad Friends?

Host: Tracy Thomas (guest hosting for Chelsea Devantez)
Guest: Cree Miles
Date: August 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the viral CNN article, “Some of you are bad friends and that's why you’re lonely” by Kristin Rogers. Host Tracy Thomas and guest Cree Miles dissect themes of modern friendship, loneliness, social expectations, and the cultural shifts affecting our ability to connect deeply. While the article critiques flakiness and poor friendship, Tracy and Cree dig into societal causes—like technology, boundaries, and elite capture of self-care rhetoric—generously weaving in their personal perspectives and lively debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Article?

• Cree chose this article because it felt “more personal” and admits, “sometimes I am the friend who is being bad and sometimes I am a victim of raggedy friends” [04:33].
• The subject resonates deeply and is more complex than hot-take articles about screen time.

2. Who is Kristin Rogers? (Article Author Analysis)

• Tracy and Cree speculate about Kristin’s life, thinking she might be “a little judgy” and likely someone feeling hurt by unmet friendship expectations [05:29–07:11].
• Tracy observes:

  “Kristen’s bite is pretending not to bite… Hurt people hurt people.” [06:09]

3. What Are Realistic Friendship Expectations?

• Cree asserts:

  “If we're truly friends, then it is well within your expectation for me to be inconvenient sometimes because of our relationship and vice versa.” [08:09]

• The hosts critique the modern overuse of “boundaries” as avoidance, calling it “rooted in some white patriarchal shit” and ultimately a communication problem.

4. Social Media and the Erosion of True Connection

• Tracy laments the shift from spontaneous, casual interaction (“drop-bys”) to scheduled, performative events:

  “We think being around each other has to be an event… relationships in our lives [should be] relational and not just performative.” [11:01]

• Both recognize social media gives a “false sense” of connection:

  “…we think we know each other because we see each other on the Internet…” [11:45]

5. Obligation, Community, and Friend Inflation

• Danielle Bayard Jackson’s quote (from the article) is highlighted:

  “Obligation, responsibility, duty, inconvenience, commitment… not sexy words, but those concepts are inherent to a deep and healthy relationship.” [15:01]

• Both agree: not all acquaintances are friends:

  “We don't owe all of that to those people.” [15:39]

6. “Boundaries” vs. Avoidance: Elite Capture

• Tracy brings up “elite capture”—where radical concepts like rest/self-care are co-opted and divorced from their roots in social justice [17:26].
• She critiques the overuse of self-care language as an excuse to wall oneself off from meaningful obligation.

7. Managing Expectations—And Not Taking Flakiness Personally

• Cree normalizes the need not to over-interpret cancellations:

  “People live such complex lives… if your friend doesn't respond or flakes… it's probably more about them.” [20:40–20:52]

• Tracy calls for more communication and less sensitivity:

  “It is so disappointing when someone you think is coming… doesn’t show up… just be upfront.” [38:25]

8. Gender, Loneliness, and Community Breakdown

• Tracy links general loneliness to men’s lack of friendship skills:

  “Men are not equipped to have deep, meaningful conversations… If half of our population is struggling to make connections and the other half is doing all of that work, it can be lonely.” [23:26]

• Cree shares how women in her community step in for each other, while her husband lacks a similar support network [25:33].
• Societal changes—remote work, services like Instacart, and lack of public “third spaces”—exacerbate isolation [24:35–25:33].

9. Solutions for Friend Flakiness & Loneliness

• Find friends you truly LIKE. Cree:

  “Make sure that you like your friends... I know a bunch of people who do not like their friends.” [33:11–33:28]

• It’s okay to compartmentalize friendships. Tracy explains you can have long-term friends who aren’t central to your life:

  “…Not a friend I’m calling every weekend… I got five to six more months before I gotta see Boro.” [35:51]

• Be upfront and communicate. Tracy illustrates with wedding RSVPs:

  “Have the conversation so you’re not the asshole.” [36:22]

• Don’t be afraid of cutting people off if needed. Cree:

  “You are not a tree… cut this girl off and go find somebody you like.” [33:28–33:35]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On boundary overuse:

  “No bitch, you just need to, like, talk through how you’re actually feeling…” – Cree [08:09]

• On the eventification of friendship:

  “That piece of it is still as valuable as a girls trip or a Halloween, but it’s like we have to build relationships ... that are relational and not just performative.” – Tracy [11:01]

• On flakiness:

  “Why are people… cause I do think people are lonely.” – Cree [23:16]

• On choosing friends:

  “What do they say, you are not a tree… Cut this girl off and go find somebody you like.” – Cree [33:28–33:35]

• On “drop-by” culture:

  “You might meet up with someone and do an errand...That’s the hang.” – Tracy [11:01]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:49] — Tracy introduces the article & “bad friend” theme
• [04:33] — Cree explains why the article resonates for her
• [08:09] — Cree critiques “hyper independence” and avoidance culture
• [11:01] — Tracy discusses “eventification” of friendship
• [15:01] — Danielle Bayard Jackson’s concepts: duty, obligation, and commitment
• [17:26] — Tracy introduces “elite capture” concept
• [20:40] — Managing expectations, not taking it personally
• [23:26] — Tracy links loneliness to gendered communication gaps
• [25:33] — Cree shares personal example of female mutual aid
• [30:26] — Cree: “I’m at capacity, I don’t need new people…”
• [33:11] — Actionable solutions: like your friends, cut off the rest
• [36:22] — Wedding RSVP story as a model for communication
• [40:08] — Click Lit Quiz: was the article well-written/effective?
• [41:05] — Guest/host sign-offs and where to find them

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Click Lit Quiz: Article Review

• Was the article well-written?
  Both agree it’s “solid, comprehensive,” but a bit introspective rather than energizing [40:08].
• Did it make you want to scream about it?
  More reflective than rage-inducing.
• Did it deepen thinking?
  No big revelations, but it connected existing ideas in a helpful way.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Focus your energy on friends you actually like and support you.
• Compartmentalize relationships rather than forcing all into a “best friend” mold.
• Be direct and upfront with communication, especially about plans and expectations.
• Build casual, spontaneous connections (bring back the “drop-by” or simple hangs).
• Don’t overuse boundaries as an excuse for disengagement—communicate your needs.
• Cut yourself (and others) slack: Everyone flakes sometimes.

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Notable Memorable Moment

“It is so disappointing when someone you think is coming… doesn’t show up… just be upfront. ... we've all flaked, and we've all been flaked on. I don't think it makes you a good or bad person. I think just, like, communicating around it…” – Tracy [38:25]

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For further recommendations, follow Tracy at @thestackspod and Cree at @cree.miles on Instagram. Cookies (listeners): Share your takes or solutions on the Patreon or socials!

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Transcript

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[C]

Hi, it's me, your host, Chelsea. I am actually away from the podcast right now for a few weeks. I am on set directing my first feature film which I also wrote. If you want to know more about what I am up to. I am updating people on Patreon. Also on Patreon and Apple subscriptions is where you will continue to get your bonus episodes from me every month, just like normal. We already recorded a bunch for you. And in the meantime, our viral article episodes like this one today will be hosted by a favorite guest on this podcast, my book sister and favorite person ever to debate with Tracy Thomas. I think you're going to love it, so let's dive in and please let us know what you think in the comments.

[A]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas. I am the host of the Stacks Podcast which is a weekly book podcast where I interview authors and talk about their new books and I host a monthly book club on my podcast as well. And today's episode is part of our viral article series where we recap and discuss articles that go wild on the Internet as that too is part of the glamorous trash literary world. Today we are discussing an article titled Some of you are bad friends and that's why you're lonely by Kristen Rogers for cnn. And this article was suggested to us by wonderful cookie Joelle G. Over in the Patreon Viral article chat. So shout out to Joelle. Thank you so much. Let's dive in. My guest today is my dear friend, the wonderful CRE Miles. She is a Webby nominated book influencer, writer and former organizer. She runs Penguin Random House's Always Black, which Celebrating Black Writers and readers and has been in conversation with some of the current goats of our time. Ta, Nehisi Coates, Amanda Gorman, and Roxane Gay. Her podcast, Baldwin's 100 podcast peaked at number three on Apple's Book charts. She's my friend. That's the intro that you need. She is the goat. She is my friend. She is cre. Miles. Welcome to glamorous trash viral article episode.

[D]

It's an honor. We didn't need any of those accolades. Except for I fudge with Tracy. Yes, we're homies and we're here to talk about potentially drag, potentially uplift. We'll see where it goes.

[A]

We could go anywhere, anytime. Okay, so let's just dive right in this bad friend article, folks. Let me just quickly tell you what it's about. The article sort of starts off the author. She is astounded by how inconsiderate people are. She's gotten multiple last minute cancellations. People just not showing up to events where they said they'd come. Here's exactly what she says. It leads me to believe that the measly effort some think they owe their friends these days must be a factor in their growing epidemic of loneliness and lack of community, despite all the research showing how much relationships boost our wellbeing and longevity. Then she goes on to talk about COVID being a good friend, where this might be coming from, what we can do about it. We're gonna get to all of that. But first, I just wanna start here. Cree, when I invited you to come do this with me, I sent you a few different articles. You picked this one. So why did you wanna talk about bad friends and loneliness?

[D]

This one just feels more personal to me. The other one you sent, what kids are telling us about, like, their relationship with screens from the Atlantic that I've seen everywhere. I was like, obviously the kids need to fucking go play outside. But this one felt more personal because sometimes I am the friend who is being bad and sometimes I am a victim of raggedy friends.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Like, I just liked being in the middle of that, Trying to unpack it all.

[A]

Okay, so in the article, she talks about how there's been like an uptick of this. Have you noticed an uptick in your life? Are friends flakier in the last year or two than they've been otherwise ever?

[D]

I mean, my very first knee jerk as I was reading this was. What is Kristen's day to day like? Does this girl, like, is she in a relationship with someone? Are there children? How many schedules are you managing? Because it teetered on Judgy a little too much for me.

[A]

Okay. I was gonna talk about Kristen later, but let's just talk about Kristen now. Let's just start. First, her name is Kristen Rogers. She wrote this piece. If you had to guess, based on the evidence in the text, because we are literary scholars, you and I, what would you extrapolate out about Kristen?

[D]

I would assume that Kristin lived in the big city. I think Kristen would live on the east coast. And that Max, she had a dog, Max, and it was wearing her the fuck out.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I would love to be wrong, though. And so then that's why her relationship with her calendar is beautiful and Chris. And that's why she thinks people are flaky and raggedy.

[A]

Okay. Kristin is a little judgy. You know what it feels like? Hurt people. Hurt people. To me, Kristin feels like she is hurt. She is mad her friends are not behaving how she wants her friends to behave. It feels like Kristen is used to a certain level of commitment that maybe Kristen is not getting from people. As we age, as things change. That being said, we gotta look within sometimes in our relationships. And I think that Kristen. The tone isn't great. I don't love to tone police because I have, as you can hear, terrible tone. I am rude. There's a bite sometimes, you know, I have a very sharp bite that Leo bites. But Kristen's bite is pretending not to bite. Right. I feel that Kristin is pretending to be objective here. And I'm feeling that Kristin is extremely hurt. And maybe her friends suck. And I. I agree. I don't think she has, like, kids or other responsibilities. Maybe she does. Who knows?

[D]

Yeah. But even then I feel like if everyone is healthy and able bodied, the tipping is a kid. Yes. That's what changes.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Like everything.

[A]

Yes. Okay, so in the article, Kristin, you know, she says this thing, people are being lonely. But she also goes on to talk about sort of how do we keep our relationships from deteriorating. She talks about this TikTok video from a gal named Rachel Lovely that I watched. It's very long, actually, Rachel.

[D]

It found me on the algorithm even before this article. So I had already watched it and been reflecting on it. I think there are super valid points about villagers and villages.

[A]

Exactly. It starts off with like, I saw this quote that said, everyone who wants to have a village, but no one wants to be a villager. And then Lovely goes on to talk about her mom, who she says is like the ultimate villager. Do you think that we're expecting too much from Our friends and our family. Like, is the expectation too high?

[D]

No, I don't think so. I think if we're truly friends, then it is well within your expectation for me to be inconvenient sometimes because of our relationship and vice versa. I do think, like, the hyper independence and, like, the obsession with, like, self care and boundaries, I definitely think that's, like, rooted in some white patriarchal shit and has definitely gone too far. But I think that that happened because people have a problem with communicating clearly through conflict. So they just go into this obsessively avoidant style, which is like, I'm just going to protect my boundaries. No, bitch, you just need to, like, talk through how you're actually feeling, and then we can come to a good conclusion.

[A]

So.

[D]

So I think there's a lack of communication and I guess, like, whatever, your expectation of a friendship is really just between you and that person, and y' all should be able to talk through that and the relationship should be able to maintain, like, that tension that might pop up when you guys are understanding each other's expectations and abilities.

[A]

And that's such a good point, because I think one of the things that feels extremely clear to me about this conversation, and especially in the article, is that for whatever reason I think some of it is social media. There is an expectation of what a friend is, period, that does not take into account what your friend Sarah is versus your friend Michelle. Like, you have different friends for different reasons. So, like, I might have expectations for you, Cree, that I would never have for host of this amazing podcast, Chelsea devontes, and vice versa. Right. And you're both my friends, but I understand where the relationship is and also who you are and what you're capable of. Like, if you ask me to do something and I'm not capable, I'm gonna be like, cree, there's literally no chance. Like, there's no chance.

[D]

There's literally no way.

[A]

If I say yes and then I flake, if you are truly my friend, you're going to understand, like, oh, Tracy might have a lot on her plate. Like, I might have pushed it too far. Or you're gonna say, why did you flake? What's up? Yes. Are you good? What's the deal? So I think that's a piece of it, but the social media piece, and I think this part's really important. And I don't think enough people are talking about this, so I think I'm a genius for this, is that you are one. We think that being a friend or, like, being around each Other has to be an event. When I was a kid, my mom's friends used to just drop the fuck by. They would kick it. Maybe they'd have a glass of wine and just talk. While my mom was making dinner or whatever, you might meet up with someone and do an errand. Like, my mom and her friends used to go to, like, Cost Plus World Market, and that would be something that they did together. Cause they had. That's the hang, and that's the hang, and it's not an outfit and a beach trip and a this and a that, and there's no money.

[D]

It's not for the gram.

[A]

Like, you might not even get lunch. You might just go run this errand together. And that. That piece of it is still as valuable as a girls trip or a Halloween. But it's like, we have to build relationships in our lives that are relational and not just performative. And I feel like social media has, like, deeply, deeply screwed what it means to be a friend. Because it has to be, like, around plans.

[D]

Relationships are just in the everyday interactions and just, like, showing up for people the way that they need to be showed up for. And, yeah, I don't know if a lot of people know how to just sit and be.

[A]

Yeah. Because we're not. It's not modeled anymore. And then I also think, like, we think we know each other because we see each other on the Internet, so we think we know what's going on. It's like, oh, I just saw you got a promotion. Or like, oh, I just saw you were on this trip, and so there's none of the actual relating. And so I think while it feels like we know each other still, we don't actually know what's going on. And so it's easier to flake because you don't feel like you see the full person or, like, we're not being asked to see the full person deeply. Okay, so this brings me to another thing I want to talk about, which is we've talked about sort of, like, why our relationships are failing a little bit. But I also think we have to talk about, like, how many friends people have. Everybody's not your friend.

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[C]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode.

[A]

In the article, Danielle Bayard Jackson, who's a women's relational health educator, talks about obligation, responsibility, duty, inconvenience, commitment. Those are not sexy words, but those concepts are inherent to a deep and healthy relationship. And I feel like part of this is like we've got too many friends and too many people we're calling friends that could have other titles like Co Worker, Friend of a Friend, acquaintance, former classmate. We play tennis together on Saturdays, whatever that looks like. Because we don't owe all of that to those people.

[D]

Yes, Right. And that was the Psychology Today test. It was the number four. Good friend, loyal. To the people I care about.

[A]

Yes. To the people I care about. Which goes on, I think, to add to this piece of which you were talking about before, which I am sort of obsessed with, is the way that people are now. Like, I have to protect my peace. And, like, I have to. And I'm like, if you have friends, real friends, people you care about, who you want to do things for and want to receive things from.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

You should not be protecting yourself from those people.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

If you feel that you need to do that. Yeah, you need new friends.

[D]

You need to have a conversation.

[A]

You need to have a conversation.

[D]

Maybe there's a glitch in the road. Talk about it. And if you all can get to the other side, you're still friends. If you can't get to the other side. Yes, you need new friends. That simple.

[A]

Right? Like, because this whole language of, like, I need a break or like, I'm protecting my piece, that didn't come from me and my bestie. Right. Granted, if your bestie's going through something that is difficult for you because you've been through something, like, those are. Again, have the conversation. But this idea that, like, I have a friend who loves to be like, I need a break. Sending a mass text. Like, everyone, I'm taking a break. You know, I won't. You won't see me out for a little bit. And I'm just like, okay, fine.

[D]

Why does.

[A]

Why a text? Like, why do I need to know? Just, like, I don't like. To me, it's just, like, that's a cry for help. So obviously, my immediate response is off the group text. Hey, are you okay? What do you need? Like, can I help you? What's up? I usually take that as an invitation to immediately invite you to do something with me because I'm concerned and confused why you're texting me.

[D]

Ice cream parlor.

[A]

Yes, immediately.

[D]

Yeah, dude.

[A]

But your thing about, like, taking that, you know, I don't know if listeners will know this, but I think you're familiar with the idea of elite capture. Do you know what that is? There's a book called Elite Capture by Olufemi Otayewo, who wrote a book, Haymarket Press. Real good stuff. Elite capture is basically the process by which a radical concept can be stripped of its political substance and liberatory potential. By becoming the victim of elite capture deployed by political, social and economic elites in the service of their own interests. So James Baldwin. Yes. So it's very much like, you know, doing the work has become the language that, like, companies are using to talk about racism, where doing the work used to actually mean something in, you know, black and brown communities, about community organizing. And I feel like there's been this elite capture of rest and rest as resistance. And, you know, we're seeing it a lot also as like, joy, you know, like everything that's going on with the Trump stuff, like people being like, I need to take a break. I'm like, from what? You're white. What do you need a break from? Obviously that excludes trans people, you know, like, that excludes people who are being attacked. But this idea that, like, oh, I also am entitled to this, even though this language actually comes from systems of people who have been oppressed needing language to talk about how to care for each other or how to fight. And I feel like that's also what's happened with this. Like, I need a break. I need my personal space. I need this. It's like, wait a second, why do you need these things from your most beloved people? Because one, you're not talking about it, or two, they're not the right people, they're not your most beloved people. You've grown apart. They are not who you thought they were, Whatever. And so this article made me think a lot about elite capture.

[D]

No, that makes total sense. And then I'm flopping back because I am a Libra. The other side of it for me is I think sometimes, and I will never know this for sure, that I could be on some Emily Dickens shit. I really think I'd be happy if I just lived in a forest with a cow. I love coexisting with mammals who can, like, demonstrate that they are sentient and loving and invested in this relationship without talking. Talking wears me out. And so after a long day of answering the average 600 question that I get from the six year old, that's probably like 1500 questions. Then, yeah, you might not hear from me because I just don't want to keep going back and forth about anything. I think about that sometimes in this whole conversation around resting and when I'm talking to people who are caring for someone, they don't even necessarily have to be parents. But anybody who has like, the labor of caring for someone and is generally the type of person that's filled up from silence, I get when I just won't Hear from them. One of my closest friends from college, we are lockstep with that and we have a text thread that, like, won't get answered for like three weeks at a time, but then they'll dump because it's just. It's too much. But again, it's people managing their expectations that I think make all the difference in the world.

[A]

Managing expectations. And then I think the other thing I was thinking about a lot was like, managing sensitivities, not getting hurt over something that's probably not about you. Yes.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Like if your friend doesn't respond or flakes on you, it's probably more about them having an issue if that's really your friend.

[D]

Right. Because the other thing that she rubbed me a little bit is at the end when she talked about the digital calendar. Frequently double booking yourself as an adult in this digital age. Makes no sense. I live on my phone, so if I have to pull it out to check the calendar, I'm just like, I literally have put my freedom on. I'm supposed to not be looking at my phone for the next three hours. You're killing me. You're killing me. So I can easily double book myself in that way. I'm decent at it. But sometimes it does happen.

[A]

The way that she talks about to the reader in this article, like what you're talking about. But there's also a part earlier where it says, it's those of you, even very good friends, who flake for trivial reasons, seemingly without a second thought. It's like, well, did you ask me why I did it? There might have been a thought, babe. It might be that you're annoying me today, Kristin. But it also might be that something came up that fucked my day up.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And that's. That's perfectly valid to me.

[D]

That is completely. People live such complex lives. I guess when she's talking about nobody showing up to a thing, that I can't relate.

[A]

I can't really.

[D]

People flake on me, but people always.

[A]

Somebody shows up, somebody shows up.

[D]

So it's never. That part was wild to me. And then, yeah, maybe that is like a friend assessment. Everybody's expectations are too high.

[A]

So I've done things where I've been like, you don't really have to RSVP or whatever. And people just tell me. And then like, it's less people than I thought it would be. And for a moment my feelings are hurt. And then immediately I'm like, oh, but look at the people who are here.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, we have work to do. And I Just feel like being hurt about the people that aren't there is just like, not to be horribly mean to Kristin. It's sort of a moral failing. Like the fact that you can't be in the moment and like, appreciate what is in front of you and, like, that people did show up for you.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

It reminds me of myself in college when I would do things and invite a boy I liked and he wouldn't come and I would be like, this party is stupid. Or like, I don't wanna do karaoke anymore. It's like, okay, sorry. That, like, Billy Bob isn't here. Tracy, get it together. Like, everyone else is out doing karaoke in New York City and you're crying over Billy Bob who, like, turns out, not cute, not gross, not cute. Yeah. Dumb as rocks. My God.

[D]

Oh, that's so real. I mean, to get to the bottom of her point, why are people. Cause I do think people are lonely.

[A]

I do think people are lonely. Okay, so I've thought about this a lot.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

She says something about, like, nothing beats knowing that when life hits the fan, certain people have my back with actions, not just nice words. It makes us more resilient to stressors, experts say. So she's talking about how, like, showing up for people and like, building this community is valuable because it protects us from, like, being lonely in these darker moments. And I think she's right. But I also think that people feel lonely, one, because they don't actually connect like we talked about with social media. And two, because, and this is a broad generalization, but men are not equipped to have deep, meaningful conversations. They've not been taught how. So if half of our population is struggling to make connections and the other half is doing all of that work, it can be lonely. Like, I understand why women are also feeling lonely, why women feel like they are being left out to dry. And that also, it then makes. Makes our relationships more exhausting. There's nothing better than getting on the phone if you're a phone person like me with someone that you love and having like a two hour conversation where it just flows easily and you talk about all of these things.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's also nothing worse than trying to have a conversation with someone who does not know how to have a meaningful conversation. And you're just like, this is this. Like that to me is so isolating. So I think that's part of it. I also think, like, we don't do the drop by thing. I think everything requires a car and plans and like, it's just. And we don't have community centers and we don't have third spaces. And like, so much of the ways that people used to see one another. And also, I think this is in the article, these app services, people don't even go to the grocery store. You're doing Instacart. So, like, I'm not even bumping into you at the store. I'm not even bumping into you. I'm sending a TaskRabbit. I work from home. I don't have to leave my house except for taking my kids to school and picking them up or like, wherever they're going for a whole day if I don't want to. And so it's like, if you don't make an effort to be around people, it's very easy to be not around people.

[D]

First of all, to the men's point, when I or Brian, my husband, have work trips and he will leave and I will rally the forces, shout out to Yaz, she'll come over. Brian literally was out of the country when I had to interview Keke Palmer. And that was like a whole day thing. So Yaz came over and hung out with the kids and cooked everybody meals. And then I think they ended up spending the night. And then the next day, something had to happen. So my friend Savon came over and we were trading meals. And when I leave, he doesn't have a gaggle of men who will help hold him down as, like, the only adult in the house. And that's sad. And that you're right. That affects all of us. Like, now it affects me.

[A]

Your relationship with Yaz and Sivan or whoever is stronger because of them doing things for you and you doing things for them. It's like men are missing the opportunity to even grow and build their relationships. Cause all their relationships are just relational. Like, we play back basketball or like, we make music together. There's a great book about this called Boy mom that I read. I fucking hate the title. Deeply, deeply. What I think Boy mom, girl Dad. I just. I fucking hate that whole thing. The book is so good. And it's all about boys and how they don't have friends and how they're not taught how to have friends and how there's no media about them having friends except for friends when they, like, go on quests or whatever.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, we're gonna go. Like, the movie Stand By Me is a perfect example. It's a book about boy friendship, but really it's a book about going to see a dead body.

[D]

Yeah. And then like the bumping. There's a organization in my neighborhood that does like an event every King Day. So they have this event. It was like, won't yout Be My Neighbor? Like that was the theme. And we're in there and people are talking about how they don't know their neighbors. And Ubuntu, the organization was unpacking. Like, these are the first line. If anything happens, if I have a heart attack and I'm in the house with my six year old, he just gotta run outside and find somebody. And. And if he's never talked to any of them, that's wild. So I don't know why people aren't talking to their neighbors. But then it's like people live in really transient neighborhoods.

[A]

Really quickly. Can I tell you what I'm gonna start doing?

[D]

Give it to me.

[A]

Okay. It's called a cake party. And it's for this reason. We live walking distance to my kid's school now, and it's a magnet school, so a lot of kids are getting bused in. And I want to get to know the parents so that if something were to happen, their kids could just come home with us and they would feel safe and comfortable knowing that there's a house in walking distance if they're late or whatever. Similarly, you know, we keep hearing we just had these fires in la. You know, if you are meeting your neighbors in the middle of a disaster, it's too late, right? Plus, I have all these friends who are single and young and who like, need community. So I'm starting something called a cake party. Once a month, I am baking a cake and I'm inviting people to come. The only rule is, as long as there's no dietary restriction, you have to at least eat some cake. Because in la, people will be like, I'm not eating sugar. And I'm like, no, bitch, you eat sugar. Have a fucking slice, babe. I also get to bake a cake because I love baking. But you never wanna bake a cake just for yourself because then you eat it all. Like, it's like too much cake. What do you do with it? It goes to waste too much cake. So I'm. This is my solution is the cake party. Okay, I know we've devolved from the article, but I wanna get back to it a little bit. In the article in this quote, it's about boundaries. And it comes from this professor, Marissa G. Franco, who is at University of Maryland, and she's got this book called Platonic how the Science of Attachment Can Help you Make and Keep friends. She says boundaries are important, but for some people, they've swung so far over to toxically focusing on oneself, no matter the impact on others. If you feel like you're entitled to cancel whenever you want and that you still deserve future invitations, that's not a boundary. It's a selfish desire for permission to act on your whims, regardless of how that behavior affects. And I do think that is part of the loneliness piece. Like, if you're really only worried about yourself and what feels good for you. I mean, back when I was, like, young and single or young and recently coupled, but no kids, I used to say yes to everything for sure. To a detriment to myself, for sure. Like, I would be so run down. I still have a little bit of a yes woman complex. Hello. Hello. I'm hosting Chelsea's podcast. No business doing this. I'm so busy. And yet Chelsea asked and I said, of course, you're my friend. Duh. What a great thing. I love viral articles, but I do feel like, how else are you supposed to meet people and build connections if you are setting up so many boundaries? It's like you build a fortress around yourself.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I am a Leo, and I like talking and I like people. So I recognize for some of you, yeah, it might not be that way, you introverts. But for me, I'm just like, how else are we doing it?

[D]

I can say straight up, I don't need new people. Like, I'm at capacity.

[A]

Oh, I like new people. You're a new person.

[D]

For me, it's been, like, three years.

[A]

Yeah, but that's new.

[D]

All right. I mean, okay, so I should say, like, now that, like, I have you and Sarah and I talk to a few other people, like, I would consider colleagues. I'm good. I'm at capacity. I don't need any more, like, book influencer friends. So, like, I'm clear on that. I don't need any more, like, emotional support friends. I have plenty of those. I have, like, I have two going out friends. Maybe I'll need one more of those. I don't need to meet new people. Like, I do. I do turn down invitations from people who are like, oh, it's so fun to meet you. Let's it. And I'll be like, ooh, okay.

[A]

I will turn that down now, too.

[D]

Sometimes, I mean, I do think that Franco's right about people have swung too far on the boundary game. I think they're doing that without, like, full capacity. I think they're saying no to stuff. And then they're at home bored, judging people. So that doesn't make sense to me.

[A]

When I say yes to things that I do go to for the 45 minutes before I'm supposed to be leaving my house, I am in my house going, I don't want to go. This is the last thing I want to do. This is hell. The moment I walk in, I'm like, this is the best day of my life. I've never had more fun in my entire life. Like, every time I'm at Costco with my friend Vela, literally, like, this is. I love it here. Like, let's get a hot dog. And so I also feel like some of the dreading not to pathologize Americans right now, but I think also some of that is, like, government anxiety, global politics, fear, stress. There's just, like, so much that I feel like I am thinking about, not even knowingly when I'm getting ready to go out of the house, that I'm like, I don't want to go. Today has been so stressful. Like, I don't want to do it. And then I meet someone for a sandwich, and I'm like, this sandwich has never tasted better. The air has never been more clear. Like, the birds.

[D]

It's great, right? The birds are chirping. You know that meme where that man is outside and it's a butterfly, and he's like, is that a bird? Cause he hasn't been outside. That's how it feels. Cause, oh, my gosh. You so hit it on the head every time I have to go anywhere.

[A]

Anywhere.

[D]

I hate that. Anywhere. I should just cancel. I want to watch Wednesday. But no, once I get there, literally 85, 90% of the time, I am so happy that I'm there.

[A]

Okay, so I think we're, like, towards the end. I don't want to leave people without some simple solutions. What do we feel like our solutions are for flaky friends, for people who are being flaked on, for lonely people. Like, if we could be quoted in this article as doctors of things, like Dr. Marissa Franco, she should have called us. Yeah. I mean, what do we think?

[D]

My very first knee jerk. First and foremost, make sure that you like your friends.

[A]

My first note was new friends.

[D]

Cause I really like and I see it play out. I know a bunch of people who do not like their friends.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

What do they say? You are not a tree. This is not even blood relation.

[A]

Yeah, cut this girl off and go.

[D]

Find somebody you like. That's my first tip.

[A]

Okay. I Love that. There was a meme that I saw the other day that I reposted that was like, I don't know which of your friends gave you ptsd, but you don't ever have to hide your wins from me. I mean, you know this about me. I am the cheerleader of cheerleaders. I'm like, oh, my God, somebody got good news. This is the best thing I've ever heard, dude.

[D]

And yes, the PTSD stuff is real. People really have this.

[A]

Like.

[D]

Like I've been friends with this person. This person's been in my life for X amount of years. I can't not be in a relationship with them. Yes, you can.

[A]

Well, okay, wait. I do have a few friends that I've known for a long time that I don't particularly like that much.

[D]

Why?

[A]

Because I've known them for a long time and so I will see them, but in a controlled way. I don't talk on the phone with them. I don't text them all the time. Like, I will check in here or there. I feel like you can have different kinds of friends. You have different friends for different things. Like, I have a friend that I think is extremely boring. And I'm not even gonna gender them. I'm just gonna keep it them. Cause I don't. Everyone's gonna think I'm talking about them. And you know what, babe? I probably am. If you think it, it's true.

[D]

Not me.

[A]

No, it's not you. So what I do is I just say, this is when I'm available. Would you like to do this thing when? It's a time that works for me because I do wanna check in with them. We have known each other for a long time, but I don't have a lot of fun with this person. And so I feel like another solution for me is like, you can have relationships with people. Just like you might have a cousin that you're not super obsessed with, you know?

[D]

No, but I'm biologically bound to the cousin. I'm side eyeing this. I don't understand the value or merit of being in a relationship with someone that you do not like.

[A]

Okay, well, I wouldn't say I don't like them, but I don't like. It's not like. Like I think they're a nice person. Yeah.

[D]

So if they're boring, what's the redeeming quality? That they stay around.

[A]

Well, this is gonna sound horrible, but judge me all you want. They really love me, Tracy. It's true. Like, they are a really loving friend. Like they are a really loving, like, interested and invested friend. And while I think that they're boring, I don't necessarily think, like, that is a re. Like, I have plenty of entertaining friends.

[D]

Yes. Okay. Okay. Do you love them back?

[A]

I do love them. Okay.

[D]

I guess that that works.

[A]

I do love them, but it's just like, they're not a friend. I'm calling every weekend on a Saturday when I'm like, shit, what should we do? I'm not like, hey, friend. Hey, Boro, let's hang out. It's more like, hey, I haven't seen Boro in, like, five months. Let me just get a dinner or a lunch on the books. We'll go out, we'll catch up. I got five to six more months before I gotta see Boro.

[D]

Okay. I do have a family member like that.

[A]

Okay. See, I think we all have a person like that.

[D]

But the only reason I do it is because if they weren't my family member, I wouldn't do that.

[A]

That's fair.

[D]

What is your walking advice for the listeners?

[A]

I think being upfront is my always my number one piece of advice as a person who cannot not be upfront. But I think a lot of these problems would be easier. For example, I was invited to a wedding in October. And you know, for a wedding, you have to rsvp. So I got on the phone with my friend and I said, listen, this is a new friend who I was invited to their wedding. I have a very old friend who is getting married the Sunday before your wedding, Friday wedding, across the country. I am going to try to be there. I am RSVPing yes. I will check back in with you in September because there is extremely high chance that I am a no. So you need to tell me the absolute last date that I can pull out before it makes your life difficult. And this friend was like, I totally get it. And the first wedding, the Sunday wedding, I had to RSVP and be like, my spouse, Mr. Sacks, he's a doctor. His schedule is very last minute. And I had to say, I'm gonna be there no matter what. Can I say yes for Mr. Stacks or do I have to just say no for him and he just has to miss it cause he doesn't know and like that kind of stuff. It's not an easy conversation to be like, my life has to take a weird priority over the biggest day of your life. But also, it's fucking rude as hell to not show up to someone's wedding that you RSVP'd for or to show up, bring an extra person. Like, so to me, it's just like, have the conversation so you're not the asshole. Because nobody's gonna have. And I think this is in the article where, like, she talks about managing expectations. If I throw a party and I really want Cree to be there, and you tell me in advance you're not coming, I get to be disappointed about that long before the actual party. It is so disappointing when someone you think is coming, you're like, oh, my God, Cree's gonna be there. And you tell like, oh, I can't wait for you to meet so and so. And then that person doesn't show up, and you're just like, that's embarrassing and, like, sad. So I do feel like, just be up front or be like, hey, I mean, to her point, like, if you have double book yourself, like, that's some sort of moral failing, just be like, hey, I'm on deadline. I think I'm gonna come, but there's a chance I won't be there. And I'm so sorry. Like, I don't think these conversations are that big of a deal between friends. There's the gal earlier in the article who talks about how it was like her sixth grade party when nobody showed up, and I was like, lisa, or whatever your name is, you need to go to therapy, honey. We've gotta just, like, be up front and also be as forgiving to your friends as you would want them to be to you. We've all flaked, and we've all been flaked on. I don't think it makes you a good or bad person. I think just, like, communicating around it, which feels like the most obvious advice.

[D]

It really be kicking people's asses.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Having uncomfortable conversations, really be kicking people's asses.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's true. But I'm always just like, just say it. Because then nobody can fault you.

[D]

Right.

[A]

It's like I told you, I said what I said, if you want to hate me for it, hate me. If you want to forgive me, forgive me. But it's like, then you're gonna hold it against me, right? No, thanks.

[D]

Right. And then we're not gonna be friends. I will cut people off fast.

[A]

I think you cut people off faster than me.

[D]

I. I probably don't know if the relationship matters to me. Like, if I hold it. I do try to work through it.

[A]

Yes, I will try to work through a thing. Okay, listeners, cookies. That's what Chelsea calls her audience, the cookies. It's very cute. I'm a cookie. We love the cookies. Cookies. Talk to us. Tell us in the comments, in the Patreon, or on Glamorous Trash socials. You can even find me on socials. What you think, what are your solutions? At the end of all these episodes, Cree, we do this fun little thing called click lit quiz. I'm gonna ask you these three questions, and then you're gonna tell me, and we're gonna decide if this article is Cookie Glamorous trash approved. So here's the click lit quiz. Was the article well written?

[D]

Yeah, it was solid, comprehensive?

[A]

Yeah, it was fine. Did reading this article make you want to scream about it to someone?

[D]

No, it was more like a introspective calling. Yeah, I did. I wanted to keep reading. I was thinking about my relationship with people. She didn't, like, rage me. I was just like, oh, am I bogus? Like, it was more like, okay, this.

[A]

Article did not make me want to scream about it to someone. I thought it was fine. I feel like I've already been screaming about a lot of these things to people, like, especially the elite capture piece of this. Like, you don't have to be friends with people and the loneliness part. But this article didn't make me feel extra screamy. And then number three is, did reading this article deepen your thinking on the subject? No, I think it expanded my thinking. I'm really getting analytical here. It didn't deepen it. I don't feel like it came to new conclusions. But it did help me kind of, like, draw lines from other things I've been reading and thinking about together. Yeah, that's what I would say. Okay, Cree, how can people find you? Anything you are working on that people need to know about?

[D]

You can find me on the Instagram. Cree. Miles Myles. I'm in, like, creative purgatory. So, like, I'm working on things, but I don't have anything I can, like, announce.

[A]

Okay. The worst. And everybody, I'm Tracy Thomas. I'm the host of the podcast the Stacks Podcast about books. You can find me at the Stacks pod on Instagram threads, wherever. You guys are amazing. We'll be back with another viral article. Talk to us on the Patreon. Cree. Thank you, thank you.

[D]

You.

[A]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[C]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics. And every plate, we will link to those brands in the show notes, go check them out out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join, leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.