Viral Article Book Club: Baby Name Hot Takes, the $10K Dating Coach, and Viral Art

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast

Episode: Viral Article Book Club: Baby Name Hot Takes, the $10K Dating Coach, and Viral Art
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Tracy Thomas, Book Icon of the Stacks Podcast
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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1. Red vs. Blue State Baby Names

[00:29]

Chelsea Devantez opens the episode by introducing the first hot topic: "Red vs. Blue State Baby Names," based on a study reported by the Boston Globe, which analyzes how baby names may reflect the political leanings of different states.

Key Points:

• The study by Nameberry reveals that certain names are predominantly found in either red or blue states.
• Blue State Girl Names: Names like Fiona, Leanna, Miriam, and Paige are significantly more common in blue states.
  • Chelsea: "I think we're reverting to labeling names like Fiona as ethnic when it's just a white name to me." [03:12]
  • Tracy: "Fiona, Leanna... it's surprising how names like Paige seem partisan but aren't clearly tied to a specific region anymore." [04:13]
• Red State Girl Names: Names such as Hattie, Oakley, and Collins show a stronger presence in red states.
  • Tracy: "Hattie is interesting because of its historical connotations and its rise in popularity in red states." [09:03]
  • Chelsea: "Hattie is often associated with the mammy character from 'Gone with the Wind,' which makes it quite loaded." [09:10]
• Blue State Boy Names: Names like Moshe, Santino, Muhammad, and Nico are predominantly blue state names.
  • Tracy: "Moshe is 97% a blue state name, indicating a strong cultural or ethnic influence." [10:44]
• Red State Boy Names: Names such as Stetson, Senator, Gunner, and Baker are more common in red states.
  • Chelsea: "Stetson feels deeply rooted in Americana and has strong cultural ties to the cowboy image." [12:04]

Insights:

• The conversation highlights how baby names can serve as cultural and political indicators, reflecting broader societal trends and regional identities.
• Both hosts express concerns over the simplistic categorization of names and the underlying cultural implications, such as the use of traditionally ethnic names in predominantly white or blue states.

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2. The $10K Dating Coach

[19:39]

The second topic delves into the controversial subject of a $10,000 dating coach promoted on TikTok, as reported by The Griot.

Key Points:

• A woman claimed that investing $10,000 in a dating coach led to her engagement, sparking widespread discourse.
  • Tracy: "Are we pro or anti spending $10,000 on a dating coach?" [20:20]
  • Chelsea: "I think it's fine. People should spend their money however they want." [20:22]
• The dating coach’s approach was criticized for promoting regressive gender norms, advising women to "tamp down masculine energy" and become more submissive.
  • Tracy: "The coach told her to be more feminine and less masculine, which felt like a cult-like approach." [23:22]
  • Chelsea: "Her advice felt regressive, like telling women to be submissive and lose their power." [24:11]
• The hosts express skepticism about the authenticity and ethical implications of such expensive coaching, questioning the underlying motives and advice given.
  • Tracy: "This feels like a Trojan horse to take away your power and enforce outdated gender roles." [25:01]

Insights:

• The discussion raises critical questions about the commodification of personal development and relationships, especially when tied to exorbitant fees.
• Chelsea and Tracy highlight the need for genuine and empowering coaching practices, rather than those that may perpetuate harmful stereotypes or manipulate individuals' behaviors for profit.

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3. Runaway Tradwives of TikTok

[28:55]

The third segment explores the lives of women who identify as traditional wives ("tradwives") and their experiences in escaping oppressive lifestyles, as reported in The Last Piece (L Piece).

Key Points:

• Definition and Challenges: Tradwives often lead insular lives with limited access to education, resources, and community, making escape difficult.
  • Tracy: "These women are trapped in a system that doesn't allow them to share their struggles or seek help openly." [28:55]
• Abuse and Isolation: The pressures and expectations placed on tradwives can lead to various forms of abuse and mental health issues.
  • Chelsea: "Real tradwives are doing the hard work of maintaining a home and raising children, often without the recognition or support they deserve." [29:09]
• Support Networks: The article highlights the role of online communities, such as the Instagram account The Deconstruction Doula, in assisting 144 tradwives to escape their oppressive environments.
  • Tracy: "They provide critical support, from legal assistance to job opportunities, helping women gain independence." [29:51]
• Critique of Influencers: The hosts differentiate between genuine tradwives and social media influencers who portray a polished version of the lifestyle, often exaggerating or misrepresenting the reality.
  • Chelsea: "Influencers like Ballerina Farm Gal are not true tradwives; they manage businesses and have the support systems that real tradwives lack." [29:38]

Insights:

• The conversation underscores the stark contrast between the idyllic portrayal of traditional lifestyles on social media and the often harsh realities faced by real tradwives.
• It emphasizes the importance of providing genuine support and resources to women seeking to leave oppressive arrangements, highlighting the role of community-driven initiatives in facilitating these escapes.

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4. So You're an Artist: How Many Followers Do You Have?

[34:00]

The final topic examines the relationship between artistic merit and social media influence, inspired by the article "So You're an Artist. How Many Followers Do You Have?" by M.H. Miller.

Key Points:

• Viral Art Culture: The article discusses how the value of art is increasingly judged by its social media presence rather than inherent quality.
  • Chelsea: "The article feels gatekeepy, suggesting that viral popularity diminishes the authenticity or value of art." [34:29]
  • Tracy: "Art becoming popular through virality is akin to DeLillo's concept of the most photographed barn—people are photographing for the sake of photography." [37:17]
• Impact on Artists: Chelsea argues that while social media can democratize access to art, it also creates pressure for artists to conform to trends to gain visibility.
  • Chelsea: "Art going viral doesn't necessarily mean it's bad; it can act as a gateway to other, perhaps more profound, works." [35:38]
• Social Media vs. Artistic Integrity: The hosts debate whether having a large following is essential for an artist's success or if genuine engagement can compensate for smaller audiences.
  • Tracy: "Your following doesn't matter as long as the right people who appreciate your work are following you." [46:00]
  • Chelsea: "An engaged and passionate smaller following can be more meaningful than millions of inactive followers." [51:18]
• Personal Experiences: Chelsea shares her own journey of gaining a significant following post-2020, attributing it to her focus on black, queer, and authors of color, rather than seeking virality for its own sake.
  • Chelsea: "My following grew significantly due to the visibility of Black authors and crucial societal events, not through chasing virality." [50:19]

Insights:

• The discussion highlights the evolving landscape of art and literature, where traditional measures of quality are being juxtaposed with digital popularity.
• Both hosts advocate for balancing the pursuit of visibility with maintaining artistic integrity, emphasizing that true engagement and support from a dedicated audience hold more value than sheer numbers.

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Chelsea Devantez and Tracy Thomas engage in a nuanced discussion of contemporary cultural issues, ranging from the politicization of baby names to the commercialization of personal relationships and the shifting dynamics of artistic recognition in the digital age. Their dialogue emphasizes the importance of critical analysis, genuine engagement, and the preservation of authenticity amidst prevailing societal trends.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Why do people keep taking pictures of it? Because it's the most photographed barn in America." — Tracy Thomas [37:25]
• "Show me the husband. I want to hear from the husband." — Tracy Thomas [25:25]
• "You put in the $10,000. Like every incel. Every chad. Sorry, I guess the chads are the good guys." — Tracy Thomas [24:50]
• "Your following doesn't matter as long as the right people follow you who are important for your career." — Tracy Thomas [46:00]

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Further Engagement

For more insightful discussions on celebrity memoirs, pop culture, and viral articles, subscribe to Glamorous Trash and join the conversation on Patreon and Instagram. Don’t miss future episodes where Chelsea and Tracy will continue to dissect and debate the trends shaping our cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Tracy Thomas]

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[Tracy Thomas]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece. The one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the Cousteau Barcelona cowboy top, or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion eBay. Things people love. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And this is our viral article series where we recap and discuss these articles. There is also a chat in our Patreon purely dedicated to hot articles. And today, listen, I put out a vote. Everyone on Patreon voted one thing, everyone on Instagram voted the other thing, and obviously Patreon won. But then that article was kind of like, I have some thoughts. So we're actually going to hit four hot articles today. We are going to be talking About Red State vs Blue State baby names, a $10,000 dating coach, Trad wives who escaped, and an article titled so you're an artist. How many followers do you have? Let's do dive in. My guest today is book icon Tracy Thomas of the Stacks podcast, frequent guest, highly requested usually because we disagree, but still love each other. So hi.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yay. Hi. Okay, wait. So Patreon voted for the art?

[Tracy Thomas]

So Patreon voted for. Yeah. So you're an artist. How many followers do you have? And Instagram voted for red and blue state baby names. Wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So Instagram knew.

[Tracy Thomas]

But they were all close.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Your polls are always so close.

[Tracy Thomas]

The first one we're going to dive into because Tracy said this is the one I had the most thoughts about, which I'm actually shocked. It was this one it is titled the Red Blue Divide shows up even in baby names. A new study finds that your moniker may signal your parents politics or at least the politics of your state by Karine Hajar and Heather Hop Bruce. So it's in the Boston Globe, but they're really just reporting on a study by name Barry, which is a baby naming website. And I'm so curious why you had so many thoughts. Because I thought to myself, I didn't need an article to tell me that Oakland and Oakley were red state names and Santino and Mohammed were blue state names. Like this seems.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, okay, so here's what happened. I felt the same way going in. I said, I know what this is going to be and I don't care. I think when I first read the headline, I thought it was just like, what are the most popular names by state? But it's what are the most popular names by blue state? Unique to sort of.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Like it's saying, like this name will mostly be a blue state and rarely in a red state. Like Fiona, Leanna, which I was shocked by.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Then the piece is like, in blue states, it's no surprise. Like it's mostly ethnic names. And I was like, oh, are we back to saying that the Irish are ethnic again? Are we, are we giving Irish people like ethnicity? Because Fiona is very just white to me. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, we're reaching with that. But the boys names are definitely like f. Yeah. Like you said Muhammad, Santino, Nico.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it is a weird little thing to wrap your brain around. So basically, if your name is Muhammad, there's only a 21% chance you live in a red state.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I think what's interesting about this study, it's like, well, what if you're the one blue voter in your red state? Like it, it doesn't divide further. Do you know what I mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

The article is way too short. It really was just like, hey, Nameberry, publish this. Let's read the blue state girl names.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Fiona, Liana, Mira. Miriam, Kira. Miriam. Okay, I said Miriam and I've said Miriam, Nina, Aisha, Paige, Kayla. I gotta tell you, Paige really shocked me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Paige feels red state to me. I said the same thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Paige feels partisan to me. Paige feels we could be anywhere.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Anywhere. Yeah, sure. But maybe Paige used to be more and now it's less because they've moved to Oakley. You know what I'm saying?

[Tracy Thomas]

I see, like Paige has actually become like too basic. What is the Miriam and Miriam? Because, listen, I don't know much, but I Thought those names were vaguely biblical.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Miriam is in the Bible. She's the mother of Moses who puts him down the river.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you know what I'm saying? So this is a blue steel state predominant name.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But that could be like, that could be like Jewish people.

[Tracy Thomas]

I also feel like we need to tell people that you are part Jewish from that comment you just made.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, oh yeah, well, sorry. It's true. Jewish people do. By biblical names.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, no, don't be sorry. I just want people to know it's coming from a credible source. It's not a guess.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, even if I was incredible, it still is in the Bible and it could be Jewish people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. I. I was just thinking it's coming from someone who knows the culture.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Do the blue state boys.

[Tracy Thomas]

Blue state boys or should I do Red state girls?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, okay. Red state girls is insane. I thought my brain was breaking as I was reading Red state girls. Go ahead.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, now the interesting thing about the red state girls is that while the blue state names have like 74 to 84%, this will only be a blue state name. All of the red state names, the highest they get is like 66%.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is why I think there's this traveling of the names.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, totally agree. Okay. Hattie, Oakland. Oakley, Graceland, Renly, Blakely, Collins. Oakley. Saylor. Oakley. Now that was Oakley. Okay, let's do this. Oakland. Oakley, L, E, I, G, H. Oakley. L, E, E. Oakley, L, E, Y. So if your name is any variation on Oakley, there's no chance you don't live in Texas is what I'm hearing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So I and from Oakland, the city Oakland. And I said, my God, I should know an Oakley or two. Because you would think that people in Oakland would name their kid. No. Yeah, Oakley. Oakley and Oakley and Oakley and Oakland. Crazy spellings of a word that is not actually a name like Blakely. Oakley. Those aren't names, you guys. I'm sorry, those are just two syllables connected. I cannot. But also. Okay, in the little paragraph before they go into the actual like top, whatever they say, if you go deeper into the top 25, there are multiple military names for both boys and girls. But one of the girls names was Remington. And I said Remington, the fucking arms maker is not like for a girl. Hi. I'm sure they call her Remy, but that's fucking sane. That's fucking crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

But is it like their way of being like, it's a girl, but it's Remington. So like we believe in her ability to Empower herself.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And that's insane, too. That is fucking insane. Like, that one was offensive to me because I was just like, imagine if you decided not to be like your parents and you have to go to your job, and you're just like, hi, my name is Remington Thomas, and I'm here for my job as a librarian. Like, what if you don't want to be a fucking gunslinger?

[Tracy Thomas]

This is when we change our name. Listen, sometimes you gotta take it out to Fiona.

[Chelsea Devontez]

At that point, you gotta go back to Fiona.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, this is sad for me, because, listen, trash is in the brand name. Glamorous Trash. If you read my memoir, you know that my stepdad used to play it Used to be a redneck tapes. And we would count all the ones that applied to us, which was all of them. This is my culture. All of them. We had a inside, outside, couch. Some of these names. I was like, that's really cute.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which one?

[Tracy Thomas]

Hattie.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ridley. Okay. Need to talk about Hattie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I thought I did.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Hattie is a black name.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was. That's what I thought. And I was like, hattie here.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Hattie is famous for the woman who played the fucking mammy character. And Gone with the wind.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Hattie McDaniel, who was not allowed into the Oscars through the front door for white people. And she wasn't allowed to sit with her Gone with the Wind co star. She was put way in the back. Even though she won an Oscar.

[Chelsea Devontez]

None of the black actors were invited to the movie premiere, but they had a black children's choir who sang at the movie premiere. But they wouldn't let the black people in the movie. To the movie. And now everybody's named fucking Hatt. Suck it. I hate it. No, I'm like.

[Tracy Thomas]

But all but. Or am I like, is this.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Or is this all the black kids in the South? Because there's lots of black people or.

[Tracy Thomas]

Some type of growth or some type of positive cultural movement.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, it doesn't tell us what the actual ethnic makeup of any of these places are.

[Tracy Thomas]

And they don't say what state it is, so.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right. And so a red state, even a state, like, you know, Mississippi is the blackest state in the Union, and that's a red state, and that's a red state. So it could be these are black people. And just like, a lot of black people are doing the thing where it's like, you name it, name your kids after your grandmother, and Hattie would be like, that generation. But if there's a bunch of white little blondie girls Running around named Hattie. I just.

[Tracy Thomas]

I thought Collins was a cute name.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Collins is not bad.

[Tracy Thomas]

I thought Grace Lynn is a little much.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Nope. All the rest are bad for me.

[Tracy Thomas]

And Sailor is tough for me because it's just Sailor, but it's spelled S A Y L, O, R. Okay, let's go into the blue. Now, I would say the girl names, actually, I felt shared a lot of common ground in which you could see a lot of different girls within both sectors of the names. The boys, blue state names have the biggest difference with the red state names. Let me read it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Moshe, Santino, Muhammad, Yousef, Kieran, Ari, Aiden, Ibrahim, Ali, and Nico. And Moshe is 97% a blue state name. So they're saying, like, you will not find this name of a child in a red state.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I want so much more data because I also want to know what percentage of kids are actually named Moshe. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Right, Right. Like, it's like, out of all the kids, right. If it's like, there's 95 Moshe's. Because I think on Nameberry, you can actually look and see how popular the name is. Like, overall.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. The data it gives us is like, hey, even though the GOP has inroads with minorities, it's a funny way to phrase it. They've made inroads. You're like, okay. It is still. Still.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They haven't made inroads in the name. They're not.

[Tracy Thomas]

I said, it is still a predominantly white party. And so that's a little bit of the data they give us. Not a lot. Okay, let me read the red boy names.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God, I'm gonna throw up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cohen. Sorry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's Cohen, which is also a Jewish.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know, but I guess I was saying it like that because it's spelled.

[Chelsea Devontez]

K O H E. Well, there's another one later that's Cohen.

[Tracy Thomas]

No. So I was trying to give it a little differentiation. Are they both just Cohen?

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's. It's like Oakley and Oakley, babe. Can't tell the difference. You just got to your one parents really cool. And one parents not.

[Tracy Thomas]

But when there's a K on it, I'm like, okay. They've put their own spin on this name. When it is C O H e N. I'm like, how the hell did this happen?

[Chelsea Devontez]

C O, H, N. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about it. Listen, and then we'll do it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cohen with a K. Baylor, Stetson, Kyson. K Y, S O, N. Trip. Two peas, Obviously. Sutton, Briggs. Cohen again, with a C, Gunner and Baker.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This list, the boy red state list is what threw me. This is what made me want to talk about this article. Because they said, Stetson and I said, stetson, that's a cowboy hat. That's who made the cowboy hat. I said, I wonder if this guy's just a real piece of shit racist southern guy from the 1800s. That's just the fucking worst. And they all know it. And so they're rubbing it in our faces. No, babe, I did a deep dive on Mr. Stetson.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. T, Mom Z. My mom texted me a selfie and she said, I need makeup help. And I said, good, because now I know what I'm getting you. For Mother's Day, I got her a bunch of products from Thrive Cosmetics. Let me just tell you what I got her. The brilliant eye brightener, the deluxe Mini Liquid Lash Volumizer mascara. I also got her the instant brow fix and two lip filler longwearing plumping lip liners. I cannot recommend these products more. They're vegan, they're cruelty free, and Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes that really matter with every single purchase. If you just get one product, get the brilliant eye brightener Mini in Stella Champagne Shimmer is my favorite shade. You're going to change your eye game. It also has over 40,000 five star reviews, so don't just take my word for it. Discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics. Luxury beauty that gives back. You can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous that's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E T-I C S.com glamorous for 20% off your first order, go celebrate your teen mom Z. And also get some for yourself. Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music great artist BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Go to your happy price, Priceline.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Here's what I found out from New Jersey, a blue state okay. Wanted to fight in the Civil War for the north, was not able to because he had tuberculosis.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

He went out west just to, you know, I guess do the thing that men do.

[Tracy Thomas]

A little pray, love out west, a.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Little eat, pray, a little cowboy. They didn't have any cowboy hats out there. They were wearing fucking.

[Tracy Thomas]

What were they wearing?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Raccoons on their raccoons and shit? Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Nothing for shade.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Not nothing for shade. So he said, I'm going to make this hat. This is what they need. He makes his hat, he gets filthy rich, obviously, before he dies and throughout his entire life as a rich person, he gives away his money, including almost all of his money before his death, to education, to found a college, to the YMCA and to feed homeless people. So all of you fucking racist Stetson loving bitches who named your kids Stetson because you thought you were being Mr. Americana, you're giving us the role model for what Elon Musk should be. A rich person who gives all their money away and doesn't fuck with everybody else and dies in peace.

[Tracy Thomas]

Listen, I believe there's destiny in a name. And while they wanted it one way, I hope all those Stetson grow up and it's in the DNA of their name. They just start doing good.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm just like, I love. I loved it. I loved it. I was thrilled to look up Stetson. What a dream.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that research.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Do we think that Tripp and Briggs are both because of Sarah Palin? Because wasn't her. She had a trip. Oh, she had a kid named Trin and I think she had a brig or maybe she had a sprig. I don't know. She had some shit. Like she had a twig.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, like, Baylor feels like it's always been there. Kyson feels like a real new one. Like, Kyson feels like influencer moms, like, had a little fun, go at something.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Cohen and Cohen is stunning to me. I'm shocked to see it again as the resident Jew in this conversation. That is a Jewish name. I don't know what it's doing there if Moshe is all alone on a fucking island.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know Cohen, Cohen and Cohen. I really, I really want them to meet and start a law firm. But it's maga and it's just really. It's like Cohen and Cohen.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's Cohen and Cohen. And you think you're gonna go and see like these two Jewish men and really, it's like two fuck proud boys and they don't actually have law degrees. They're just like.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're like. But ChatGPT could do a lot when you think about it. Yeah, I mean, listen, Gunner makes sense. Baker. That's a tough one. Feels like it should be like Barker or Breaker.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Baker. So one of my dad's best friends is Dusty Baker, the baseball manager, but calls him. It's the last name. But everybody does call him Baker. And so to me, I was just like, oh, that's interesting. But I'm used to calling someone Baker, but it is weird. And also, so many boys names I feel like are ending in er. They're not on this list. Like Walker, Baker, Gunner, Baylor, Sailor. I'm just like, what?

[Tracy Thomas]

And girls names and an E. Even mine. Chelsea. Yours, Tracy. Yeah, yeah. It's like. It's like our names end in upspeak. Again, Destiny. Okay, let's end this segment by saying you have one girl and one boy. Tomorrow, pick a name from any of the lists. Which ones are you choosing?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Stetson. For sure. My role model, my hero. Stetson is done. Locked in. And I don't know, do I? I going to go Stetson and Hattie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Good, I like that. Okay, I'm going Nico for the boy. That is one of my favorite boy names. I've written it into, like, literally my first script I've ever written, like the guy who's named Nico. So I love that name. But girl, I'm really worried about myself. I think I'm going Collins. Listen, might do an O just to up all the other Oakleys being born.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You spell it different.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. I could. I'm gonna go O, a K, L, E, e exclamation point.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What about li for me? In honor of your best friend Tracy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Then I'll add an exclamation point. Another ee comma backslash.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But I'm naming. I'm naming Stetson. I'm naming Stetson.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ste.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Stetson. Moshe. I want his middle name to be Moshe. I want to be.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think I'm naming her Gunner. I'm naming her Gunner. That's fun.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm naming her Remington Gunner. Shoot him up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Shots fired.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, no, I actual murder.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know what? I'm gonna name my daughter regulation for gun rights. Regulations. Gunner Regulation.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Why don't you just go regulation?

[Tracy Thomas]

Because. Because I got to make it like you, like, regulate. She like t I o in a regulate.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You could do regulate. She S h e in the middle for feminism.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm on nameberry. I'm fudgeing shit up.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, what's next?

[Tracy Thomas]

Now, this next article is about a $10,000 dating coach. It was published on the Griot and written by Anya Philogine. Okay. The discourse about this has been abound. Basically, this woman went on TikTok said, I invested $10,000 into a dating coach. Now I am engaged. Shout out to my dating coach. The discourse went from there. The one important detail is that it's a coach, not a matchmaker. So she was on hand, she was swiping, she was doing things that are not $10,000. And that is how she met her fiance. I have a deeper point to make, but just overall, Tracy, are we pro or anti spending $10,000 on a dating coach?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm so. I think it's fine.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, me too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't care.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm like, are you kidding me? The amount of things you spend $10,000 on, absolutely. Make your life better with. With whatever care.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And think about, like, getting your eyebrows waxed or, like dyeing your hair. Like, all the things that we do to, like, make ourselves more attractive. And people, I'm sure, like, I do this for myself. That might be true, but you also probably want other people to think you're hot. At least that's what I do. I'm not gonna lie. And I feel like, whatever, if you have $10,000, spend it how you want. I don't fucking care.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Also, it's like, we're gonna live in a society that puts so much importance on love, so much importance on relationships. Weddings cost up three times that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, at least invest having a partner, if you have one, it will be a big part of your life. Might as well invest in it. It's just like therapy or something else. I'm for it. Here's what I cannot take. I've looked for this discourse. I have not found this discourse in the video. The woman is like, listen, I am the CEO of a seven figure content studio. Now it is time for me to be the CEO of my love life. And that is why this dating coach has helped me so much. And I put like two seconds into this and I was like, oh, this is. It's just marketing. This isn't a real article. This woman is selling for this dating coach, man. She runs a content studio. The video is great. It popped off. She knew to put $10,000 in there so it would immediately have that, like, divisiveness, culture, discourse part of it. This is what she does for a living, the griot. Come on. Like, it's barely an article. It's just like, she did this isn't that fun. Like, the end, they just got, like, minor play on that. I thought she did a fantastic job with selling it. I think a lot of people are signing up for this guy, but, like, this isn't just, like, some random TikTok that was made about her experience that blew up. And then secondly, I went to an interview where they're like, so, like, what did the dating coach teach you? The first thing out of her mouth is, well, you know, I'm the CEO of my thing, and I have two kids, and I'm in charge of their lives. And so I really needed to tamp down my masculine energy and be more feminine in the dating field. And I also thought I had certain values. Turns out those are not my values. And I instantly turn the interview off. And I'm just like, how is Steve Harvey? Think like a man. The rules, everything, this. Every single dating book is like, you're a stop being so masculine. Get, like, be submissive and, like, don't him the end. And I instantly was so bummed that that is what she's selling, because, one, now it's not worth $10,000. That is everywhere. Two, yeah, that is not prescriptive advice. Like, maybe for you, if you were being a total asshole on every date you were on, sure, we need to take down your asshole energy. But, like, instantly, I'm like, oh, it's a cult. It's another. Just, like, lower your values and, like, laugh more at his stupid jokes, and you'll be engaged.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a. I think this is. I mean, I think even without. I didn't watch the video. I just read the article. I just did what I was assigned. I didn't do research, like, stats. And this one was not okay, deeply. But I knew what the dating coach was gonna say.

[Tracy Thomas]

You knew it was gonna be masculine and feminine energy, like a fucking conservative little choice Trojan horse to take away your power.

[Chelsea Devontez]

There's no other dating advice that a male coach is gonna give a woman about dating besides, be easier to be around. Like, that is the only advice coming from a coach. Otherwise, you have a therapist. You have a person who, you know, who talks to you about your life and all this stuff. But this, like, one off. I hired this stranger for $10,000, and they got me a husband in less than a year. It's just like, okay, babe, I know what they told you. Be skinny, work out.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, suck dick and be easier to.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Be around, and don't argue and make dinner and have it on the table. Warm and don't complain about anything ever again. And also get your loud, weird kids out of the house so that we can fuck whenever I want. The end. Yeah, like, it's like, okay, I can. Give me 10K. I got you.

[Tracy Thomas]

And listen, I know there have to be men also going to dating coaches, but I feel anecdotally this is predominantly women. And I just want. I want men to go teach men to be easier to be around. You put in the $10,000. Like every incel. Every chad. Sorry, I guess the chads are the good guys. Every guy who's like, a woman won't pay $10,000.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Every gunner get.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, every gunner out there. Get off of YouTube. Pay $10,000 for them. Like, here's how you be nice to a lady and ask her a question. And like, you can go get a partner that way if that's what you want.

[Chelsea Devontez]

How about men? You be a little more feminine, you fudgeing asshole.

[Tracy Thomas]

This also feels like pretty definitively hetero. And dating coaches feel like a hetero thing, which also I'm like, okay, well, it seems like heterosexual couples are having the issues. So what does that say about us? You don't mean that. Like, this isn't. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I just think majority wise. And here's the last thing I'll say about this. Show me the husband. Show.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I want to hear from the husband.

[Tracy Thomas]

The husband. I looked on. I want to hear from the co on her website. I went on her videos. No one's tagged. I don't see a photo. I said, show me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Who did you comment? Show me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Show me the husband.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Please go comment.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I don't want to start a fight.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I want to see the men involved. I need to know. Well, yeah, I also, I just. This is just feels old and dumb to me and I'm just like. It just feels so regressive.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's the thing though. I was so, so supportive of it. I'm like, yeah, this is awesome. Better yourself. I really do believe. And honestly, I could teach it. Maybe I'll start charging $10,000. Confidence tips, small talk tips, swiping tips, where to date, what to wear. I think all of those are things that can be taught to help you be the most you and guide you towards the places where your partners are. But, like, be less masculine and be more feminine is like, not a lesson.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And like, give up your values.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to change yourself to find your person. You are supposed to become more yourself. And find someone who matches that. Not be like, actually I thought these are my values. But it turns out I don't need a man with a job or whatever it is. Whatever he taught her.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I am pro people spending their money however they want to spend it. I am anti this fudgeing dating coach and this stupid shit. Yeah, like, it's like, I don't care if she wants to spend her money however she wants her spend her money. I do have some side eye questions for you though. About, like, I need details all of these articles. I'm like, I need more details.

[Tracy Thomas]

All of these articles were so short. No details for a reason. But I will give her a huge shout out. Whatever content studio she runs, if you need content, go sign up with her because she crushed it. She made this go viral. Okay, this will kind of play into another article, vibe shift. But the subject matter we're talking about shifts into the darker side of this, which is an L piece titled the Runaway Tradwives of TikTok. This was sent to me by a cookie who's actually in the article who did make the incredible choice to walk away from trad life culture and find her independence and freedom. And I won't say her name, but she's in the article so you can read it. And she's doing such incredible work to help other women get out. And this wasn't in the article, but was something she said at book club, which is like, there's this argument about trad wife culture of like, well, who cares if it's these women's choice? Like, let them choose it. Like it's not a big deal. And I'm paraphrasing, but she said, no, it is a big deal because it is the gateway into a really, really dark, oppressive world. So is the woman at her homestead pretending she made all the bread herself and doesn't have nannies the worst thing in the world? No. But what it leads to long term. And the people watching it could be led into really, really dark places where a lot of women, they find the Internet as an escape because they aren't given community, because they're taught by the church not to gossip. And by not gossiping, they're not sharing. Like, I'm unhappy or I'm being abused or my husband does this, Is that normal? Or I have suicidal ideation. Like, is that normal? Because they're taught, like, don't share your problems. Sometimes they can't read, sometimes they don't go to public school, sometimes they don't have driver's License. And so that's what this article is talking about. How these women on the Internet found a way out of this lifestyle that you couldn't get out of if you didn't have someone helping you because you are born and raised to have an insular lifestyle where you are trapped. Does that make sense?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. And I think the thing about like famous trad wife influencers like Ballerina Farm Gal is that their actual job is being a famous influencer.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They are not a trad wife.

[Tracy Thomas]

They have a full time job, entrepreneur.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Making a full time job. Their husband actually works for them and they maybe aren't making all the bread. They might have a team who's coming in and helping with things or they might have a nanny or all these things that you don't see. If you opt in to this trad wife lifestyle and you feel that you're making this choice, in addition to all the dangers you're talking about, you actually are raising the 17 kids and making all of the bread. And that is something that are expectations that you've both put on yourself and that you've allowed others in your orbit to put onto you. So it is not the same. You're not a millionaire running a business on social media. You are actually cleaning the horse stable. And like that's a lot of work. And I think there's a disconnect when we look at a lot of these like influencer people who pretend that all they do is trad wife, when really you trad wife for an hour in your dress so that you can get the content so that you can edit it and post it and then do your brand deal and do all of this and that. Like fucking ballerina farm. It's got 17 jobs. Oh yeah, like, like how is she trad wifing? That's. None of those jobs are traditional wife jobs. Like none of them are milking a.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cow, being a female director, a female editor.

[Chelsea Devontez]

These are actually pretty very modern stuff. Like they did not have like trad, real traditional wives did not have Instagram. They were not like on the go filming with their like, you know, selfie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Stick or whatever artists. Now they're evil artists, but they're creating.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But a lot of these women, their husbands work for them. They, the husbands are the quote unquote managers.

[Tracy Thomas]

The husband.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, but also you didn't have a job before I started fucking sewing prairie gowns.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Or whatever.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I know. And I think that's the real important point of like, is it the biggest deal that this woman wants to Talk in a soft voice and make homemade Froot Loops. No, but what it leads to and what it creates. And I was really thinking of the daughters, the next generation. So if you grew up in a modern world where you had choice and you chose, I want to go in trad wife. Yes. Good for you. If you raise children who are taught certain things about women's roles, who aren't given literature, who then believe they're making a choice within a system that never had a choice for them to begin with, you are now raising a whole generation of oppressed women who have to escape. And when you talk to actual women who are the true trad wives, not the influencers, there is a lot of abuse and a lot of oppression and a lot of isolation. And what I loved about the article is there's women who are like, I thought I had to do all this, and my husband didn't know why. I was just ruining my life to do this. And he helped me get out of my own perceptions. Or there are couples who stay married because they both realize, like, wait, what are we doing? And he gets his own interest. And then there's women who need to escape. And so the last thing I'll say is that in the article, it's an Instagram account. It's a person behind this. It's called the Deconstruction. Doula highly recommend everyone follow them, and they basically help other women get out. She has helped 144 trad wives escape, and one of them is quoted as saying, there's just a chain of women who have been through it and know what's going on and can help. And so they get on these zooms and they help each other. And it's. It's physically moving you. It's letting women know how they can meet with a lawyer. It's. A lot of it is getting them a job while they're staying at home so they can get resources to leave. A lot of it is just, like, they don't have resources to leave or resources to even know they can leave. So giving someone, like, a book that's untraceable or like a gift card can, like, help people get out. Okay, let's switch to our last topic. You ready?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, I am.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This episode is brought to you by Nerds. Gummy Clusters. The sweet treat that always elevates the vibe with a sweet gummy surrounded with tangy, crunchy nerds. Every bite of Nerds Gummy Clusters brings you a whole New world of flavor. Whether it's game night, on the way to a concert, or kicking back with your crew, unleash your senses with nerds. Gummy clusters. Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple Watch. The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app on Apple Watch. IPhone XS are later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. This is the article I thought we were going to talk about the most, and I have the least amount to say about it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, but I still have things. I always have things says.

[Tracy Thomas]

So you're an artist. How many followers do you have? A growing genre of work is defined not by its content, but by its audience. On social media by M.H. miller. And when they say, so you're an artist, they really mean visual artist. And they're talking about this movement of art where, like, it exists for the gram and exists for TikTok and does not exist to be the art that it is.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So I felt like the title of this article is really missing. And I think that, like, I have a little bit of issue actually with this article because I think it's very snobby to me because the title of the article so you're an artist. How many followers do you have? But really what this article is talking about is art that goes viral because a person who sees the art loves it and posts about it on social media and then it causes, like, excitement. But it's not like these artists are social media artists who have millions of followers before these installations go viral. It's quite the opposite. I mean, the first one they're talking about is this, like, macaw that from the front looks like a macaw, but from the side it's just like a bunch of, like, toys and odds and ends. And someone posted it on Instagram and it went hugely viral. But before that, they say how they couldn't sell it. Nobody was, like, interested in the piece. And then after that, they sold it right away. And so to me, that's not the artist having followers. That has something to do with the artist. That has to do with whoever showed up, put it on TikTok and how big it got. And I think I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with people seeing art and being excited about it, even if it's considered, like, lower art art because more people like it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I I mean, welcome to Glamorous Trash, y' all. That's what the whole thing is about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, Right. So to me, it's just like, very. It feels very gatekeepy, this. I like the framing of the article, but also what's in it at the very end. They sort of touch on, like, the art world hates populism, and, like, the art world is. Wants to be whatever, and that's fine. But then you can't wonder why nobody cared about the macaw piece until it made it. On social media, you make people feel like they don't understand or they're not able to be in a space with you unless they are also high art people. And so, I don't know, I just sort of was like, yeah, this article is proving the point of why art is going viral in this way. Because you're so exclusionary and so judgy that the only way people feel like they can connect on it is, like, through screens and away from the art. And I don't think it's a bad thing if everybody wants to go and take a picture in the Mirror Room at the Broad. Like, that's a lot of people going to the Broad, and that's great. And maybe they'll go see other art. And I just. I'm always gonna be a gateway person when it comes to art because I know how hard it is to be an artist. I know how hard it is to make good art. I know how hard it is to find an audience. I work in fucking books. I know how niche books are. And, like, that's why I will never shit on someone reading Rebecca Yarros. I'm probably not gonna read it. But if her books are the books that make you excited, if fairy smut is your thing, then watch those fairies fuck. I don't care. Like that. That might get you to pick up another book. Yeah, like, I. I think the whole idea that, oh, it went viral on social media, therefore the art is not good. Or like this less than is stupid.

[Tracy Thomas]

I completely agree with everything you said, but there's one quote in the article that is a little bit anti your point. And it was. It was the only good thing I got from the article, which is that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, what is it?

[Tracy Thomas]

There's an explanation for viral art, and it's a tautological one. Did I say that right?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wow, look at me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Reminiscent of Don DeLillo's riff on.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Quote the most photographed barn in america from his 1985 novel White Noise. Why is it the most photographed barn In America? Because people keep taking pictures of it. Why do people keep taking pictures of it? Because it's the most photographed barn in America. They're taking pictures of taking pictures. DeLillo writes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, I agree with that, too. I think that that is important to the conversation of art. Are things that are popular popular because we're told they're good or because we're told they're popular because other people are putting them out, and so we want to be part of that conversation. I fully agree with that, like, that critique of popular art. However, I think things like that get people in the door to see other art or to care about other things in the same way that, like, everybody's gonna go see Sinners, right? And every. Because everybody's talking about it, you have to see it. But that might make you go back and be like, oh, I never saw Fruitvale Station. Or, like, oh, I actually do like vampire movies. What's another? So, like, I don't think that the popularity of a piece of art is necessarily bad or good. I think that it's just a gateway. And, like, I went to the Broad to see a different exhibit, but I'd never seen the mirrors, and I waited in line to see the mirrors. I was like, let me go see the mirrors. I want to do the thing. And it was amazing. It is genuinely exciting to be in that room with all the lights, and it is cool. And you really are like, whoa. And I think that the reason that a lot of these things, the first person posts about them or the first person talks about them is because they genuinely are having feelings about the art. Like, something is really hitting them in a way that makes them want to share it with other people. And I feel like that is the reason that we do art. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Tracy, that is such a phenomenal point. I'm so glad you said that point. Yes, I totally agree. And I think when I was looking at the barn, listen, I took it off of art, but I was thinking of. I was lucky enough to travel to India one time, and I went, you know, you go and see the Taj Mahal, and I remember taking a picture of the Taj Mahal, and my next thought was, how is my photo of the Taj Mahal gonna be anywhere near? Way better photographs of the Taj Mahal, like, what? What is this? What is this? What am I doing? And I think that's the part I'm calling out of, like, actually engaging with it, or have you just, like, done a thing? And listen, I was, like, a lot younger, but it's like, I was better spent, like, really taking in the experience and being there and looking at it. And I think often myself and other people, you fall into, like, getting the photo and, like, just really remembering, like, when are you capturing something to share and enjoy and when are you capturing something because it's like some tick you have. I've been really trying to, like, put my phone down in those scenarios. Like, now when, like, a bestie has, like, a birthday, I see, like, is someone getting a photo? Is someone getting. And if so, then I'm gonna put my phone away. And if they're not, then I'm always pulling that, listen, you got to get that blowing the candle out photo. But I'm just trying to be more cognizant of, like, what needs to be captured and what needs to be experienced in terms of sharing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I agree. No, I, I, I, I, a thousand percent agree with that. Like, of are we taking pictures or, like, documenting certain things because everyone else is doing it. And I think the answer to that is yes, a thousand percent. And I think the other piece of that is, like, I'm okay with that. When it comes to art, like, I'm okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's a good point.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Especially fine art, because I'm like, who's really talking? Like, that's like when someone, when everybody shares the same poem on Instagram, I'm just like, someone's sharing a poem on Instagram. This is a great day, right? Like, I don't care that it's the same Lucille Clifton poem that I've seen a million times and that she has a whole back catalog that is amazing. I care that people are sharing poems and maybe someone will go read another one or like me, you know, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. Let me tell you. Think people voted on this article because. And my brain went another direction too, which is, I think it was talking about, like, if you want to be an artist, do you have to have lots of followers?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's what I thought this was going to be too. And that's how it works in the book world. It's like, people, they'd be like, oh, you can't write a book. You don't have enough followers on social media.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can we actually talk about that with, like, our last seven minutes of, like, yeah, what you know of that to be true both in your own life and working with other authors? And I can speak on it, like, from my experience of, like, if I said, I want to write a book, Tracy, do I need a lot of followers? What would you say, well, I would.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Say no, but I would say, are you any good at writing? Right. Like, I would say, well, what do.

[Tracy Thomas]

You think the publishers would say?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think the publishers, depending on who you are, I think they would say you need followers if you are a public figure. Like, if you are a person who's not a career writer, Chelsea, you're difficult because you are both a career writer and a public figure. But let's just say like another podcast host who wasn't a writer was like, I want to write a book about my life. I think that the publishers would be like, well, how many followers do you have? Because the assumption is that your book's probably going to suck because you're not actually a writer and so you're banking on just selling one book in your life to as many people as possible. I think that if you are a writer, a career novelist or book writer, let's say that is less important. I still think that your publisher will be like, you need to build your following on social media. Like, you need to engage and all of those things. But you can get a book deal and not be on social media. And then as far as like, famous writers, like, so many of them are not on social media. I mean, Stephen King is Min Jin Lee, but also that feels like they.

[Tracy Thomas]

Came up in a time before. Like. Like, it's like I don't even think.

[Chelsea Devontez]

They were famous before. Sure. But I'm thinking of like someone like, let's say Colson Whitehead. He's won two Pulitzer Prizes. He's won two, I think, National Book Awards. Maybe just one. He's extremely famous. He wrote the Nickel Boys. He's extremely beloved in the writing world. He's not on social media at all.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And he wasn't, I don't believe, ever throughout the course of his career. And he has an extremely, you know, like also Percival Everett has extremely successful writer, no social media following, no social media accounts. I don't even know if he has an email. Like, he is just so I think there is a world in which you can. But I do think that depending on your positioning, social media is important.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I'm thinking now of Taylor Jenkins Reid, who. Her books got hugely popular on social media, but not because of her. And so she wasn't. Now she has a following, but, like, she wasn't building it. It was other people on booktok making those accounts. Yeah. I would co sign all of that. I would say it is an intricate algorithm as to when your followers matter and when they don't. Because they really, really do in certain times, and they really, really don't in other times. Even, like, in, like, in casting. So, like, we're casting this film right now, and with our. We were with previously with, like, a different financier, and I had someone I really loved, and they were like, oh, they're nobody. And, like, they. They barely have any followers, right? And this is an actor, right, who's done well. And they cited, like, this person doesn't have any followers. And then this other person came about who I thought would be great, who had 8 million followers. Okay, we can all agree that's a lot.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's not a little.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not a little. And they said, like, oh, we don't really know who that is. And, like, they're not really anybody. And so there's a case where it said, you know, it was like, 100,000 is not enough followers. Who are they? And 8 million is not enough followers. Who are they? It's. It's everything in Hollywood, which is why we are the craziest, worst people to ever be around. There is no formula. It's broken. It changes on you. The rules change. They tell you one thing, something's another. Like, if all it mattered was followers, like, everything would happen a certain way. That is not all that matters. But then I do want to talk about, like, the importance of followers. Like, you have a big following. Like, how important was that to growing that, to getting opportunities, to getting to have this? Like, do you think you needed that for your career? And. And, like, do you need more for your career? Like, how do you look at that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, my case is a little bit complicated because it involves murder. Yeah, you'll see. I'm getting there. But I want to say, to your point, also, what I'm hearing you actually saying is that your following doesn't matter as long as the right people follow you who are important for your career. Because if that person with 8 million followers had 200,000 followers, but the person, the financier knew who they were, they probably would have been able to be cast. It's like, do you have the correct follower?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right. And I think, like, building hype and building buzz is the better terminology to look at, which also sucks. That is also a marketing game. But I think that is more important than a number on your account and it getting in front of the right people. And I mean, like, I have more to say about this too, because there are certain times where, let's say you are a good writer, but I don't know you're not getting through to agents and people aren't seeing you. You know what could really help you? A huge social media following. And then those two things come to.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Article going viral or something.

[Tracy Thomas]

And even still like, you know, with like book marketing, that is as much as the publisher does, like that is really on the author. And if you have not put out your work in a way where people know that you even exist and want to experience your work and buy your book, then you're starting from zero when it comes to marketing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, no, it's true, it's true. I think in that case you really have to be a talent.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. But I mean also it's like fucking corporations and people who used to run commercials are turning to social media. Like it's not just do you have to be an artist? Like fucking Nike is like, how do we get TikTok commercials?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, no, no. I mean like if you want to sell a book, like if you, if you don't have a social media following and you want like a publisher to buy your book, then you really have to be a talent because your pages have to make an agent say, this is so good that I'm willing. Like, you have to be. You have to be incredibly better than everyone else for the right agent, say.

[Tracy Thomas]

That person maybe exists who hasn't broken through because they don't have. Oh, I'm saying, like, I don't know if that does it either.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah, I'm. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that just because you are a talent, you will get through. I'm saying that if you want to get through that way, you have to be an extreme talent and you have to get the right break.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like you can't be mid and have no following and have no connections. Like you have to be.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think I'm going to do something even worse, which is that being extraordinary is no longer enough.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Maybe. I mean, I don't know. I like to think that there's hope for the extraordinary okay. Among us.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, tell me your complicated murder story.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. I set it up different. The reason that I feel that my following is complicated is because I was doing the show for two years before 2020, summer of 2020 and the murders of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Ahmaud Harbury Tracey. Why did you people found my shop? Well, because it. Because I feel that my following, it did not come from a place of people discovering my work and organically following me because they liked what I did. They Followed me because they were like, oh, we're supposed to be following black people in different industries. And I like books. So who's a black person in books? My following grew, I want to say, by like, 30,000 in, like, six weeks or three months or something. I had 15,000 followers right before I hit that milestone, like, right before. And I was like, oh, my God, I have more followers than Jesus Christ. Like, sign me up. I got a cult. And then that happened. And I think I got to, like, 45,000 followers within a few months. Now I'm at, like, 60. So that has been five years. Like, so there was this huge growth that happened that I think was important, but it also was tied to the right people following me. It was a lot of people in publishing who started following me because of this, because they were like, we don't know black readers. Right. And so it's not the same kind of following, I think, that some people might have that builds, like, more consistently and organically because they're trying to go.

[Tracy Thomas]

Viral all the time and pull in followers.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, it was just like a. It was just like this weird fluke moment. And obviously, the work that I had done up to that point was quality enough that people stuck around. And also, I have always focused on black authors, queer authors, authors of color. And so I had this huge back catalog that included, like, Ibram Kendi, who went on to become, like, Mr. Black Race Writer. You know, like, he had already been on the show in 2019. And so I think, like, for a combination of reasons, but it definitely my following and my success is not unrelated to. To those murders. So that's why I say that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, and such a good point of, like, how and where that comes from, because, you know, there were a lot of people who also got followings then who didn't have the back catalog.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And who don't have a lot of work scammers. Yeah, there are a lot of scammers. A lot of people who cropped up in the world.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe they remained and maybe they didn't. But I think the most important part is the work. And for anyone listening who maybe voted for this because you are an artist, I do want to leave on a hopeful note, which is to say that, like, like, your work is what matters most. What also matters now is making sure people know about your work and know that you exist. And that's what social media can do. It's not like I have to go viral or I have to do what I eat in a day or I have to do like, get ready with me. No, you have to annoyingly learn the skill set of social media, which is entirely different skill set than the actual art form that you studied.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Find a way to put your work into to the skill set of social media so that people know you exist and can find you and support you and love your work.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And can I add one thing to that? And also, following size is important for some things, but if you have an engaged, vocal, passionate group of people who follow you, they can be smaller. Like, you don't need to have 8 million followers. If you have 8,000 people who follow you, who are obsessed with you and talk about you all the time and proselytize your work and read everything and click all your articles and make it so that your work has impact in those kinds of metrics. Which is why, like so many people who are not artists or not creatives who are not on social media don't understand how important it is to, like, a post or to save a post or to share. Like, it just does not compute. But those little actions are actually very meaningful because that kind of connection and engagement is. Is what is important. And that's really what people can, like, turn around and mark.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's where you can pull all the cobwebs out of your head of like, well, I have to go viral. No. Make you want to be a writer, you want to act, you want to make movies, because you want to make work. This is an opportunity on a small scale to make work that people just genuinely like. And that is like such a beautiful thing that we have available to us. Us now that I think gets lost in the, like, followers argument. And yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Also just sadly, I knew we were not going to disagree that much today. I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can you believe what a lovely day for us?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't want you guys to think, listening, that we are trying to be nice. We want to disagree. We want to fight. Because you guys like that. We like being like, well, I like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Actually debating with you. I think it makes me stronger, smarter and sharper.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I. It's like a knife, just knife on knife getting so sharp.

[Tracy Thomas]

Tracy, tell everyone where they can follow you online. Listen to your podcast. All of it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You can find me at Glamorous Trash on a regular viral episode. You can find me in Chelsea. That's right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Telling me not to decorate my office orange. Go ahead.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And getting your outfits wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Every so often you can find me at the Stacks Pod on Instagram. I've got a substack called Unstacked. I've got a podcast called the Stacks. I. You can. I don't know. You guys are so smart. You can Google me. Chelsea. At least once a week yelling. It's probably going to be linked in the show notes because Christina's great.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, Patreon subscribers just saying they wanted viral articles. I would just make you podcast with me every week about articles.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would do. I would do it. But we got to find more that are. We can disagree about.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Next time, next time. Okay. Thanks for coming on. Love you. A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan My, our sound engineer, Marcus Homm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash. T R A S H. Two audiobooks. Books for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.