Viral Article Book Club: Don’t Have Kids? (with Jameela Jamil)

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Episode Title: Viral Article Book Club: Don’t Have Kids? (with Jameela Jamil)
Release Date: May 16, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Jameela Jamil

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez engages in an in-depth discussion with guest Jameela Jamil about a viral article titled "Don't Have Kids? A Feminist Antinatalism" by writer and philosopher Kate Mann. The article, featured on Mann's Substack, More to Hate, delves into the feminist arguments against having children, sparking significant online debate and resonating within the podcast’s Patreon community.

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Overview of the Viral Article

Chelsea Devantez opens the conversation by summarizing the key points of Kate Mann's article, which presents a feminist critique of parenthood under current societal conditions. The central thesis advocates for antinatalism, encouraging individuals, particularly Cishet women, to reconsider childbearing due to systemic failures. Chelsea outlines Mann's five primary reasons:

1. Pregnancy Dangers: "80% of pregnancy deaths in America are preventable" ([05:00]).
2. Insufficient Male Support: True equality in shared household responsibilities is rare unless men are fully unemployed ([07:05]).
3. Heterosexist Relationship Norms: Lack of post-pregnancy care and social support for mothers ([09:10]).
4. Exorbitant Childcare Costs: Childcare is "ludicrously expensive or unavailable" ([11:14]).
5. Healthcare System Failures: Poor maternal healthcare outcomes, especially for women of color ([14:04]).

Chelsea critiques the article’s heteronormative perspective, noting its focus on Cishet couples and the exclusion of diverse family structures, which limits its applicability and effectiveness as a broader feminist rallying cry.

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Jameela Jamil’s Perspective

Jameela Jamil expresses strong agreement with the article's points, emphasizing the emotional and physical toll of motherhood in a society that inadequately supports women. She elaborates on the imbalance in parenting roles, especially in breastfeeding and nighttime care, citing personal anecdotes:

"When one has done the birthing of the baby and has to do the breastfeeding every two hours, there's also an imbalance there." ([09:10])

Jameela highlights the systemic issues extending beyond childbirth, including:

• Healthcare Accessibility: The high cost of childbirth without insurance, e.g., $50,000 for delivery ([13:58]).
• Postpartum Complications: Hormonal and physical challenges that persist beyond pregnancy ([15:57]).
• Economic Pressures: Women often earn less, adding financial strain to raising children ([10:25]).

She also discusses societal pressures and environmental concerns, pointing out how fear-mongering and negative online portrayals contribute to the reluctance to have children:

"We are being divided, warped. What kids are being exposed to in the street, on the news, online, I can see why that makes it intimidating." ([25:09])

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Critique of the Article’s Scope and Intent

Chelsea challenges the article's approach, arguing that Kate Mann frames the issue as a binary choice for women without addressing broader systemic reforms. She posits that the article serves more as a rallying cry for individual resistance rather than advocating for structural change:

"I think she's offering individuals the opportunity to take that agency now rather than wait for a government." ([28:50])

Jameela agrees but adds that this individualistic approach may stem from a loss of faith in mass movements and collective action:

"People have lost faith in mass movements and in acts of resistance because we've at many points tried and it hasn't worked." ([46:39])

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The Role of Capitalism and Systemic Failures

The conversation shifts to the influence of capitalism and wealth inequality on reproductive choices. Chelsea emphasizes that the parenthood dilemma is deeply intertwined with economic structures:

"The way capitalism is set up, the work week is like 80 hours just to be here. And so where are you supposed to find the other hours, like, take care of her child?" ([24:18])

Jameela echoes this sentiment, noting the exploitation of women's labor and the concentration of global emissions among the richest 10%, questioning the sustainability and ethics of current economic models:

"The richest 10% were responsible for 50% of global emissions. Two-thirds of global heating caused by the richest 10%." ([28:50])

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Resistance and Individual Agency

Chelsea and Jameela debate the effectiveness of collective action vs. individual choices in challenging oppressive systems. Chelsea advocates for systemic change through consumer power and collective resistance:

"We are 80% of the consumer market. We have the power." ([60:08])

Jameela argues that disillusionment with political and social movements has led to increased individualistic approaches, often resulting in vigilantism:

"No one's coming to help. Not even the people who agree with you, who are in the shit with you." ([58:13])

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Personal Anecdotes and The Impact of Online Culture

The episode takes a personal turn as Chelsea shares a story about receiving backlash for a humorous Instagram post mocking wedding industry norms. This narrative highlights the toxicity of online interactions and the lack of nuance in public discourse:

"People went to your page and would tag you and be like, we cannot believe you follow this piece of shit wedding bully." ([54:59])

Jameela reflects on how such experiences contribute to the broader sense of community alienation and distrust, further complicating collective action:

"We're behaving like a cult, like terrifying culture that we exist within." ([56:09])

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Concluding Reflections and Community Engagement

In the closing segments, Chelsea and Jameela emphasize the importance of community dialogue and respectful discourse. They encourage listeners to engage thoughtfully within their communities to foster understanding and drive meaningful change:

"Let's talk in a way where we, like, want to have the conversation and let's change minds and come together." ([57:43])

Jameela underscores the need for emotional safety and nuanced discussions to combat societal fracturing:

"When you make someone feel safe, they understand your information." ([61:28])

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Notable Quotes

• Jameela Jamil: "Men don't help enough. It's almost impossible to achieve 50-50 because they would have to do something that compensates for that first year where you put your body, your life, and your health on the line." ([19:02])

• Chelsea Devantez: "We are 80% of the consumer market. We have America's balls in our hands. And we're choosing not to squeeze." ([60:08])

• Jameela Jamil: "We are behaving like a cult, like terrifying culture that we exist within." ([56:09])

• Chelsea Devantez: "Feminism is not everyone agreeing, y'all." ([60:43])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a thoughtful exploration of feminist antinatalism, intertwining personal experiences with broader societal critiques. Chelsea Devantez and Jameela Jamil provide a nuanced dialogue that challenges listeners to reflect on the complexities of parenthood within flawed systemic frameworks. By addressing both individual and collective agency, the conversation underscores the urgent need for structural reforms to create a more equitable and supportive environment for all individuals contemplating parenthood.

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Join the Conversation:
Engage with the discussion and share your thoughts on this episode in the Glamorous Trash Patreon community. Your input helps shape future conversations and book club selections.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the original podcast transcript provided.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

This episode is brought to you by Pluto tv. Pluto TV has all the shows and movies you love streaming for free. That means laughter is free with gut busting comedies like the Neighborhood Key and Peele and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Mystery is free with countless cases to crack from Criminal Minds Tracker and Matlock. And thrills are free with heart pumping hits like the Walking Dead and Defiance. Feel the free Pluto TV stream now. Pay Never pms, Pregnancy, Menopause, Being a woman is a lot. Ollie supports you and yours with expert solutions for every age and life stage. They just launched two new products exclusively at Walmart. Period Hero Combats Flow, mood swings and more during PMS and Balance perimeno to support hormonal balance, mood and metabolism during perimenopause. Grab [e-mail] Ollie these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we also book club viral articles and trashy discourse to elevate your life. And today is a viral article episode. We are covering an article titled don't have Children a Feminist Antinatalism by writer and philosopher Kate Mann from her substack More to Hate now. This article was recommended to us in our Patreon community by Chris. If you want to have a say in what articles we cover, get on the Patreon. We also have a brand new chat thread fully devoted to viral articles where we are now discussing articles in addition to our other chat threads about books and memoirs and TV and friendship and life chat. All kinds of things are going on over there, so get in there if you want to recommend articles to us. Now I your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And before we dive in, I have to give a little caveat to say that this article is very much written with a lens to CIS het couples. That's the language used in the article. So you will hear us using that language because we are discussing the article and we're going to bring up other things. But just know that this article got a lot of heat online.

[Jamila Jamil]

So.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So let's walk into the fire. My guest today is Jamila Jamil. You might know, and actually you definitely know Jamila as an actor, advocate and podcast host and she just launched a new comedy podcast called Wrong Turns which no big deal, but I was a guest on. Jamila, welcome.

[Jamila Jamil]

Hi, how are you?

[Chelsea Devontez]

I love you I adore you. And my bangs are not working today. And I said, if anyone's going to understand, it's you.

[Jamila Jamil]

It's a daily struggle.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It really, I mean, they're a little too long, so I'm trying to like, lift them off my forehead and then it's turning into like back when we used to like hot roller bangs or women, you know, the big girl for sure.

[Jamila Jamil]

Although I think you would rock a longer bang as well. So maybe, just maybe, the only way out is through, you know, I just.

[Chelsea Devontez]

If I get to curtain bangs, I've changed. So did the podcast launch today?

[Jamila Jamil]

My podcast is launching Thursday, the 15th of May. And it is, it's just a celebration of the dumb that we do and the dumb that happens to us without us needing to turn it into some great defining moment that takes us on a great trajectory. There's a silver lining. Then we got lemons. We didn't make lemonade. There was no great wisdom gained. I don't know about you, but sometimes my mistakes have made me dumber. I'm sick of this toxic positivity, you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Know, Sick of the silver lining. Yeah, the forced silver lining.

[Jamila Jamil]

What do we need? One more way to fail. Please leave us alone. So this is a safe space for shame.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, well, yeah, I know because I shared one of my most humiliating stories, which I shared tiny bits in my book. But the follow up questions really unraveled some shame that I had not opened up about.

[Jamila Jamil]

I honestly, I thought I was obsessed with you before, but after that story, I left completely.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Love.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And now who? We're taking a hard turn. We're discussing this article about feminist antinatalism. That's sort of the proffer that the headline of this substack is offering up. Tell me. We sent you over some articles. Your heart was drawn to this one. What drew you to it?

[Jamila Jamil]

I just fully agreed with it. It's encouraging people not to have children and obviously everyone should do what they want. But I think it was a very real conversation and from a mother nonetheless, highlighting the multitude of not just reasons why being a mother is so emotionally draining, but also the physical dangers that we just aren't really talking about enough. You know, I think the conversation often stops at, well, I don't want to and I'm independent and I have my dreams and that's super valid. And that's my reason for not wanting to have children. But also now, even if I did, I think I would pause because of the different ways in which women are endangered when they are trying to conceive or they're carrying through a pregnancy to term? How many more women have to die in parking lots of hospitals who want to have that baby, but who have some sort of sepsis, who are left to die? And, you know, I, I know that antinatalism is largely discouraged, and I know that that's a lot of people's dream to have a child. But if you're in the United States of America, I wonder if it might be better to adopt because it's so dangerous to actually give birth in a country that really is going quite far out of its way to not to kill you, but not to not kill you. I love that they thought this would motivate us to have children.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, I know. It's such an interesting. I say interesting. Another word could be horrifying, which is the platform. You know, they're really pushing. It is a JD Vance Elon Musk pushing this, like, we need more children while dismantling our rights to healthcare and our own choices. But here's something I'll say, so we're gonna dive in. I'm gonna kind of like, recap the article to you so we can discuss, hopefully, a hot debate. I, I hope, I love when we debate on these.

[Jamila Jamil]

I think I'm gonna fight you no matter what you say.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, I love it. Let's do it. But adoption is also just so. It's another system that really fucks over birth parents, the children, sometimes the adoptive parents. So really, the way we are treating children in this country, no matter where you look, is really fucked right now. And I mean, especially the foster system, where there's so many children in foster care who cannot get reunited with their families even though those families want reunification. Or children in the foster system who are not able to find foster parents because people have certain beliefs of how they want to raise a child, where that child comes from, and also all the problems in the foster system. It's just a fun topic, you know.

[Jamila Jamil]

That'S why I chose it, because I thought it would be really good to promote my comedy podcast, A Light Romp.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen, I think we're going to make this comedic. I'm ready to dive in. So I want to read the first paragraph. It's the most predictable thing imaginable. The Trump administration, co helmed by the rabid pronatalist Elon Musk and the sad sack pallbearer of patriarchy, JD Vance wants to convince you to have more children. But my message is stronger. Don't have children or more children under the current administration maybe don't have children or more children whatsoever. You are not being selfish. You are acting in self interest. There is a difference. Don't let this administration or anyone else make you forget it. And then she had five reasons. I'm just going to list the headline, but she has like more underneath it. Her five reasons for this are 1. Pregnancy is more dangerous than it should be, citing that 80% of pregnancy deaths in America are preventable and it's obviously worse stats depending on if you're a woman of color or a white woman or your income class. Also, I will say that I read some other articles and stats saying that pregnancy related deaths have not gone up, but the way we measure and collect that data has changed. So obviously there's some back and forth there. I'm not really sure where that lies. But we do know that our health care system is failing women and especially women of color. And then her number two point was that men don't help enough. And the only stat where parody enters even close to the realm of equality with shared housework is when the woman is the breadwinner and the man is fully unemployed, so meaning she's working but still taking on housework. Three Heterosexist norms within relationships mean mothers don't get cared for post pregnancy for no social support, meaning maternity leave, health care, etc. And 5 childcare is ludicrously expensive or unavailable or unreliable. So the thing that bothers me about this article is that it is so heterosexually written and two of the reasons are men don't help enough. Which are true, but I don't know, it felt like a very narrow view on this. What was your feelings on like the five reasons she laid out?

[Jamila Jamil]

I felt that. I totally felt that. But I also know women who are co parenting who when one has done the birthing of the baby and has to do the breastfeeding every two hours, there's also an imbalance there. And then there's this feeling of like okay, well now we'll do 50 50, which is a huge step up compared to what men do. But 5050 does not cut it. When a woman has given up already a year of her life, it's really four trimesters, right, that we're talking about. And her body has to recover and her health has taken a beating and her sleep is taking a beating which makes it harder to recover. So there's always an imbalance if you are with a committed partner who is a woman, preferably I'd say to raise another child with you're very, very lucky. But it's not always the case. And then there's also the fact that one of you is taking more of a backseat financially. The other one has to therefore go out and compensate for that. Women tend to earn less money, so that puts extra strain on the relationship. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm just saying that while I understand that is a heteronormative lens, she could have done with a caveat, but lesbian parents make up a tiny portion of the population of people who are. So I think she's trying to write on mass and just forgot.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, no, she. You know what, she did put a caveat in there of, like, statistically it is mostly heterosexual female male couples who are having children. And so I'm just speaking. Speaking to that massive lens. And she also said in the article, like, listen, if you want to have a kid, have a kid. But if you're on the fence and you're feeling as if the decision to not have a kid is selfish, this article is for you because you're not being selfish. This is actually quite smart. So, I mean, like, let's go point by point. Pregnancy is more dangerous than it should be. 80% of pregnancy deaths in America are preventable. Yeah.

[Jamila Jamil]

And then you like add into that lens the. Specifically, if you're a black woman, the mortality rates are fucking crazy and something like five times higher than most places in the world in a first world country.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right. In America, especially compared to other nations of comparable stats. Our health care for women and women who are pregnant is specifically horrible. On the flip side of that, I believe the stat is that there were 22 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the United States. That's from 2022 per the CDC. And I mean, it's way higher than it should be, but also not as high of a statistic you would think it is from reading this article.

[Jamila Jamil]

No, but those are the people who die. There's lots of people who experience other crazy, debilitating complications. Friends of mine who are incredibly healthy, who had great doctors, still incur tremendous risk, and that would be much more acceptable, as they do in many countries around the world. Specifically, the United States is incredibly inept. But at least you're in a country that has free healthcare. You're not gonna have to pay out your ass to be patched together by a failed or a very complicated birth. And so I think that's one of the reasons is that we have a healthcare system that is designed to Exploit Americans. And so if there was kind of a guaranteed, you go to, like, give birth in Italy, like, you can go to a hospital in Italy with a broken foot, and they'll scan your brain, you know, just to make sure, you know, nothing, nothing else is going. They'll give you, like a full body mri.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Damn, I got to go break my foot in Italy because I need that.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, it's three and it's €350, maybe for, like, the full works, full body check. You know, we don't offer people that same security. And it's a lot of the poorer areas that have the more restrictive laws when it comes to access to reproductive care. And so those people often don't have insurance or good insurance. Medicare's on the line. And so I can understand. And it devastates me to say this, because I know how much of a part of their identity, you know, being a mother is for some of my friends, they can't think of anything else. That's just what they want to do. It's what they've always wanted to do. And it. It horrifies me to have to say this, but, you know, when you think about the fact that if you don't have that healthcare support and you don't have childcare support and you are living as a marginalized person in a marginalized community where there isn't much social care, that terrifies me for you. And I don't know if that is gonna be the happy outcome fantasy that you have, because it's hard enough being a mother when you have help, when you have a night nurse, when you have perfect health, when you have access healthcare. But when you don't have those things which many of the people in the areas that are the most restrictive don't, I really worry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting about this point for me is that, yeah, healthcare for anyone going through pregnancy is horrible in America.

[Jamila Jamil]

You know, it's $50,000 to deliver a baby if you don't have insurance. That's what they charged my friend.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I didn't know that. I mean, I'm sure it's a range, right, Depending on location and state and whether it's like uninsured C section versus a different pregnancy. But that's what they charged your friend. Here's what's horrible. I go, hmm, that's lower than I thought it would be in America because. Because things are so fucked. No, truly. But it's not my problem with this point, but what I could say to this point, but the baby's coming out anyway.

[Jamila Jamil]

You know, you just caught it. You, you did a 50 gram catch and you cut something.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is really more about our healthcare system. But I think this point could just say don't be a woman in America because she's making it very specifically about pregnancy, which absolutely I get. But also it's like nothing exists for us though, right? And I don't have a choice in like whether I like I had to have an ovary removed that had a huge like tumor on it. Personally, I know lots of women had to go through that or fibroids or if you go through IVF or your period or your menopause. Everything is understudied, underfunded, and care is so, so hard to get. We did a Naomi Watts memoir which was all about menopause and perimenopause. And it, it made me like, I was like, I need to, I need to check stuff. Cuz I've been living without one ovary for a long time. So I was like, I. Who knows what my levels are? And everywhere I called, my health insurance did not cover any doctor that also covered hormone care for in case you were in perimenopause. And the stats I got would be like, it's $400 per appointment and I have, I have the Writers Guild health insurance, which is some good. And no, like the doctors just didn't even. So anyways, that's my problem with this point though because it's specifically about pregnancy when really everything we go through is difficult. So I get that pregnancy could, depending on your circumstances, be a choice you're entering into, but you don't have a choice about living here and having a body with organs that they don't provide care for.

[Jamila Jamil]

Totally. I understand what you're coming from, but I think what I would say that I would add to that is the fact that yes, it is terrible to be a woman here, but as a woman who obviously has a level of privilege, as a woman who knows other women with less privilege to have the added terror or risk of having a baby does add a level of jeopardy. So it's not the same being a woman in America as well as, you know, being a woman with a child going through pregnancy, going through that fourth trimester of keeping that baby alive and then all the years beyond that where you're supposed to somehow, you know, men expect us to be the trad wife who stays at home, cleans the toilet, makes all the food, sucks his dick, and then then also goes to work and then earns 50 50, you know, because he doesn't want a gold digger, but he also wants a servant in the home who will also, you know, tickle his balls. So it's, it's just impossible.

[Chelsea Devontez]

He's getting sucked. He's getting tickled, and he's getting 50% of that mortgage pay.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, men are living it up.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Team Momsy. My mom texted me a selfie and she said, I need makeup help. And I said, good, because now I know what I'm getting you. For Mother's Day, I got her a bunch of products from Thrive Cosmetics. Let me just tell you what I got her. The brilliant eye brightener, the deluxe mini liquid Lash volumizer mascara. I also got her the instant brow fix and two lip filler long wearing plumping lip liners. I cannot recommend these products more. They're vegan, they're cruelty free, and Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes that really matter with every single purchase. If you just get one product, get the brilliant eye brightener Mini in Stella Champagne Shimmer is my favorite shade. You're going to change your eye game. It also has over 40,000 five star reviews, so don't just take my word for it. Discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics. Luxury beauty that gives back. You can get an exclusive 20% off your first [e-mail] glamorous. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S glamorous. For 20% off your first order, go celebrate your teen mom Z and also get some for yourself. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk free [e-mail] Spotify. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Well, that leads us to the second point where she said men don't help enough and that the only stat where men share 50% of the household work or even close to 50% is when they are fully unemployed and the woman has a full time job, which is a crazy stat.

[Jamila Jamil]

I think as I said at the start, it's almost impossible to achieve 5050 because they would have to do something that Compensates for that first year where you put your body, your life, and your health on the line and your happiness and your sleep. So they're already starting at a huge deficit of getting anywhere near 50. 50. Jenna Fisher was telling me that, you know, it had been three months since her baby had been born, and she hadn't touched a nappy because her husband was just like, no, no, you will not do anything. I will do everything. I can't believe what I've just watched you do. And while I know it's not all men, let's just admit that man is a unicorn, because men aren't socialized to step up and be like. To really not take for granted what she's just been through. It's like the clock didn't start at day one, babe. The clock started ten fucking months ago when you knocked her up. And she started vomiting, you know, running out of her meeting, morning meeting to vomit. So we're already at a deficit. So the resentment's already there, and the freedom and the difference in the biological oxytocin bond towards your baby, it is uneven. And there are, of course, some men who try to step up, but most men, and I know the best men, and they are so liberal and feminist and had all these plans about how they were gonna be there for her, and they just aren't able to pull their weight, even in the way of the fucking mental load of needing her to remind them and micromanage every fucking thing that they need to for their own baby, who by now, they should know the fucking temperature of the milk. They should know where everything is. They should know the schedule for the washing and the drying of the clothes and the diapers, et cetera, and they just don't. And I think the only men who actually really start to learn that are the ones who are widows or who've been left with the child, which is a minority of men. So, yes, absolutely. I think this article. What's wrong with it? It speaks in absolutes because she's so passionate, and I don't think even there should be a message of don't have children. I think she would have softened the entire blow of the article had she just been like, this is why I'm worried about you having children. And then allow the reader some agency. But I have to say, not a lie was told.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Mm. Interesting. I think her absolutes and kind of overlooking some of the nuance in this and some of the nuance in the stats are where it tips for me, but it doesn't mean there Isn't also truth in it? Because, listen, statistically that's true. And I think the key phrase you said is men aren't socialized.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think what got me is that it's presenting it as a choice men are making, which, yes, maybe, whatever, but it's really a system we live in where, like, from jump. Every single part of our lives here in America are socialized for women to take on all of this work because women's free labor keeps the economy afloat, and men are being socialized in crazy ways, especially with, like, Andrew Tate stuff and all that stuff. Let me play devil's advocate, which means I'm literally playing J.D. vance because he's the devil. There's so much desire to have family, to have children. Listen, it's not in me, but it is in lots of people to have children, to raise kids. That family is the most beautiful thing they've ever done. You know, I have friends who are just like, you know, it's that quote that, like, hurts me but is beautiful for them, which is like, I didn't know I was never living life until I was a mother, and now I'm a real person with a real life. I didn't know how much life I was missing out on, blah, blah, blah. Isn't the point to work through raising and caring for a child together if that is something you want? Is that something we're not supposed to want at all? I guess.

[Jamila Jamil]

No, I think it's something we are supposed to want. And I think you can even get through the struggles of having to re socialize a man, to learn how to actually pull his fucking weight. The problem is, is that you're in a country that is going out of its way to make everything harder for women, to not allow women to do both, to not allow women to have some sort of security when it comes to the risks that come with childbir. To not have any way to deal with the complications that come after childbirth. Even if you had an easy childbirth, a lot of my friends have had hormonal or physical complications afterwards. It's the fact that on top of all the shit you have to deal with anyway, your motherfucking life is at risk here. And even if you're not gonna die, you might suffer so unnecessarily in a way that you wouldn't if you went and had that baby in the fucking Netherlands, where they also deal with a lack of parity in parental care and misogyny and all these different things. But at least a bitch is going to Live.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, here's the thing though. Birth rates are low in the Netherlands and where they do have, like, health care, they do have all these things that like Americans are saying, well, if we had, you know, health care for women, paid maternity leave, all these things, the birth rate would go up. Well, they do have those things and their birth rate is also low. I think I. But I think we're pointing at the wrong thing. I think it's our living wages and our. The amount of work we have to do to stay alive makes it sometimes impossible or seemingly impossible or dangerous at least to bring other people into this world. Because the way capitalism is set up, because the work week is like 80 hours just to be here. And so where are you supposed to find the other hours, like, take care of her child? And so I think she's pointing at things that are very true and real. I just don't know that it's the actual problem because then why has the birth rate gone down in, like, Denmark?

[Jamila Jamil]

Well, I think the birth rate is partially going down, in my opinion, of course, yes, to the stuff regarding the economy. But also I think this has become an uglier world to bring a child into than what we as our generation grew up with. You know, and it was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination when we were younger. I think it's the fact that partially, and this is what some of my friends have said, is that there are many reasons why it's off, putting aside from the absolutely true financial reason that you were bringing up and how difficult it is to pay for a child, how expensive childcare is, schools, catchment areas, et cetera. But I also think, think that even though there are books that state that statistically on a technicality, the things are better in the world than they've ever been. As in, like, there's less invasions and.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Less war, less pillaging, longer lifespan. As bad as healthcare is better healthcare.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, exactly. So I understand that. But I think a lot of people, especially because of online portrayal of the world and how much we're being bombarded with bad news from all over the world, I think they are demotivated. And I can't lie, seeing what teenage girls and teenage boys are being exposed to online and in society, you know, it's 17 minutes of a boy being online before he's targeted with misogynist content. And if he watches any of that content, it increases by 75% the amount of misogynist content he'll be shown.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We love our algorithms with girls, it's.

[Jamila Jamil]

13 seconds before she'll be sent diet culture content or content attacking the way that she looks. And if she watches that 75% increase with the algorithm. And so I do find the, the way that we're being divided, warped. What kids are being exposed to in the street, on the news, online, I can see why that makes it intimidating. If you're like, I can barely navigate this shit and feel sane. How am I gonna take a child through this? The world just seems, you know what we keep hearing about the environment and how we're not gonna be able to breathe outside soon. There's a lot of fear mongering that's happening all over the place. And I wouldn't say it's completely without its place. I think some things to pay attention to and a lot of the things that my friends are complaining about, I mean, all my friends when they first had a baby were like, oh my God, you have to do this. This is a love like you've never known. Like jam. You're going to love it. You're going to be so good at it. Now that their kids are 2, 3, 4, they're like, don't have a baby.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But it's. Well, here's the thing though. I think what you were saying, like all of that is true. The article is making it a feminist binary women's issue. And I think all the things you just said are way more about how society is set up, how capitalism works and how billionaires work. I think a better argument would be made for regulating the Internet, which is very easy to do. Every single thing in life is regulated. The Internet is not some like wild space that cannot have rules. In fact, it easily could because it comes from data. But I think, like, that would be a better argument to make of like coming into this world and how much fear we feel compared to the actual data of life statistics. Because I'm with you, I wake up and I go, how am I going to get through this horrifying life? And it takes so much work to ground myself back into the current reality because of all the emotions we're being bombarded with, especially under a Trump presidency. I think back to when my mom was a hippie and the big kind of thing there that they were talking about is like, don't have kids because of overpopulation. The man she was married to had a lot of fertility struggles. So then she was really making the choice to try and have kids because they had to like bring in extra stuff, which created me. But what I think is so fascinating is that overpopulation isn't actually the problem. And we have enough resources, even given climate change, we have enough resources to feed everyone on earth and for everyone to be healthy and sane at this population at greater populations. Except all of it goes to the billionaires. Basically in, in 2019, the richest 10% were responsible for 50% of global emissions. And we just checked the Guardian which says two thirds of global heating caused by riches, 10%. And that's not even going into like the corporations versus the people. And, and I think those stats have gotten even worse. And so we have to change the system we're in, but we're not actually, if you think about it, worried about overpopulation. We're worried about capitalistic billionaire structures that are hoarding all the resources.

[Jamila Jamil]

You are 100% correct. But yes, I love it. You have a utopian approach, right? You are saying in an ideal world the billionaires would take less cut, they would pay taxes, we would allocate money from the military or from investigating men's baldness and take it more towards women's healthcare. We would have reproductive rights, we would have affordable housing and affordable childcare. Yes, 100% that is correct. We have huge structural issues. But what I think this woman is getting at, and I definitely think a lot of people identify with this, is the fact that yes, all of those things are completely true. That is what needs to happen. We all know what the logical structural changes have to be in order for us to live in a peaceful fucking society that isn't dominated by greedy lizards. But we don't have that. And women can't even get get abortion rights. We can't even re overturn Roe v. Wade right now. So she's offering individuals the opportunity to take that agency now rather than wait for a government. That government upon government, regardless of who is in power, just continues to get worse and worse and worse. Obviously it is specifically much worse with the current administration. But every government, us, the public, the working classes and doesn't serve the people and turns the people against each other. So what she's offering you is rather than waiting for sanity and safety is to the last bastion of women's agency is now going to be whether or not I even let myself get pregnant. Because once I do, my body is in the hands of the state, which is nuts in a society where at least if your life is at risk, are you going to have someone who makes everything, you know, equal and better and creates parity and you're able to still continue with your dreams? We don't have any of that. So she's laying out how bleak it looks like, I think if anything, this article should really be for men rather than for women to go, look at how bleak this is. Look at how unmotivating it is. Look at what you've done. And this is the only thing you've left us with any choice to do. This is our way of arming ourselves. This is our way of getting the handgun you know is going right. I'm just gonna protect myself because I don't know how to restructure a system that is hell bent upon restructuring itself for parity for the people.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen, I think that's fair, but I do, I think that is where we disagree in that she's calling it feminist antinatalism. And in her context, she's talking directly about our administration, the government programs of like the $5,000 baby bonus and things that they are offering to try and get you to have a kid. And if we're looking towards the government, I think she's pointing it back at individual choice, not at the system, which, yes, maybe is the only choice we have right now. It's being pointed at the wrong problem, I think is what I'm saying.

[Jamila Jamil]

But wait, isn't that worth taking? If it's the only choice we have right now, if it's the only form of resistance that women can operate within, is that not to you, the best shot? Because ultimately what I think her plan is, and I don't know this woman, but what I imagine her plan is that. That this is an act. It's a wave of feminism. It's an act of resistance that reminds everyone who the motherfucking actual boss is. And it's the people who make the people in our fucking bodies and feed the bodies with our tits. You know, like that's what we're doing here, is reminding everyone who's boss and creating a crisis of low birth rates until they realize, wow, we've really made this as unmotivational as possible. Like as unappealing as possible. There's so many reason, reasons why these women don't want to have babies. Maybe we should fix the system. I think one of the only ways to fix the system is to strike. We see that with unions. We see that with Poland when the abortion rights were too restrictive. They're still restrictive, but they were out of control. Restrictive women were like, cool, bye, peace, we're heading to the streets. They didn't do any housework, any of their jobs. They stopped buying anything. They crashed the economy in under a week. And suddenly they started to get some of their rights back. What I wish is that the of Poland would get back on the street and that the women of America would stop talking about collagen and lip stain on Tik tok and get out into the street and stop buying stuff. We're buying stuff more than ever. We're encouraging stuff. We are 80% of the consumer market. We have the power. We have America's balls in our hands. And we're choosing not to squeeze and choosing to look in the mirror and see what's broken that we could fix, instead of all of us making an agreement to stop buying, to get out into the streets and fight and strike. What she's proposing is inherently during the administration, she's not saying never have babies. She's not saying don't have babies in other countries. She's saying in America under this current administration. This is your feminist opportunity to take the power back and motivate this government to actually create a world that is much safer and welcoming to women and children.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break.

[Jamila Jamil]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.

[Jamila Jamil]

She's saying, in America, under this current administration, this is your feminist opportunity to take the power back and motivate this government to actually create a world that is much safer and welcoming to women and children.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think when you say it like that with the organization and the plan of like this is pointedly the plan to get, let's say, Roe v. Wade.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, she should have done it as a rally cry. She should have done it as a call to arms.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, she says, under this administration. But then she also says as maybe at all. It doesn't feel focused and pointed in the right ways. And it feels like it's ignoring a lot of other things. Because when you're talking about we are 80% of the consumer market, let's not buy and let's strike, that is something we could do to strike against Trump and this administration, which would be so very powerful. And we already are boycotting stores like Target with dei and it is working. Like, their sales are down. This is like something very powerful that we could do as people who hold the consumer market in our hands.

[Jamila Jamil]

Like you said, we dominate the economy. The economy is in our.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, but that's not brought up in this article. But it's also. You can't conflate that within making our health care better and our pregnancy better like this.

[Jamila Jamil]

You can. You can strike for health care. You can.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, but that, that's different than what she's saying. She's saying, don't have a child, which, and here's the thing, if it had more nuance to it, like the beginning, where it's like, hey, listen, if you're feeling like you might be selfish, you are not selfish. Here are the things face, I'm like, yeah, for sure. These are very real fears. But she ends it with this. And she is a mother. And she said, I'm a mother because I did have 50, 50 split with my partner. I did have health care, and I did have a job that would give me maternity leave. So I had rare circumstances. I chose to do this. And so she wrote to my daughter, in the unlikely events that you are reading this years from now and whatever has since become the Internet, you are my lights. I am so glad I had you you. But my situation was unusual. I dearly hope things are better now. If they aren't, however, as I fear, I hope you read the above list, take it to heart, and keep yourself well. I hope you follow my advice. I hope you don't give me grandchildren. And this is where I said, well, good for her, because this is how you get the Internet on fire. This is how you get the clicks and the retweets. But I don't think as a prescription, it is an effective one. Not only in the way she's talking about it, but in the way we get our power back. The way you just said, if we went to the streets for four days, no household work, no work in, you know, whatever job you have, and no buying of anything to focus on a goal of. Give us our healthcare back. Give us healthcare at all. That is a totally different argument than I think what she's laying out personally. But do you see it as the same?

[Jamila Jamil]

What I see is in my head, what I'm imagining when I was reading this. And perhaps I'm projecting it into. What she's saying is I believe this is a call to arms. I believe this is a decision she's making. You know, not a decision. This is a. She's inviting people to consider a way in which we are not the victims of society, but we make them the victims of our decision. Because when we stop consuming and when we stop creating, people are what keeps the economy running. People are labor, people who are poor, who have a higher chance of then ending up in some sort of criminal system, therefore ending up in jail where they will then work for free for a ridiculous amount of years. There's many menacing reasons as to why they're trying to force the birth because we absolutely do have enough resources to feed all the people in this country, but we don't. We have 700,000 or more children on food stamps.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Just quickly, I think it might be even higher than that. Pew Research had it at 13.8 million. But no, keep going.

[Jamila Jamil]

And we have, you know, a lack of baby formula in and out here and there where we can't feed the babies and the mothers aren't producing the milk. We don't have arable land for more than another 50 years in the United States because of the way that they farm. I'm aware I'm adding to a lot. None of this is said in the article. And I know that's your point. I just. I think she's calling for a call to arms. I understand why anyone would find it abrasive the way she says, I hope you don't give me grandchildren. I can't exactly work out if really what she should have said was, don't feel any pressure to give me grandchildren. Because I think that would have been a much better sentiment and a sentiment that I wish more people were giving their children, that I don't have an expectation of you to suffer when I will not be there to help you all of the time in a that is falling apart. I do, however, find it quite refreshing that someone who is in the ideal situation to raise a child has not seen this experience through rose colored glasses. Clearly she's still seen some shit that is very unappealing, even at the epitome of a supportive care system comparative to most. And she's gone. If this is this hard for me now, I cannot imagine what this is like for women who don't have this idealistic level of privilege. And I personally, for one, appreciate that because it's much easier to digest this information from actual mothers than from someone like me, this sort of selfish, childless bitch who's just like rich auntie life.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Whoop, whoop.

[Jamila Jamil]

I don't have anything particularly valuable to say to someone who's on the fence, who has that urge to create a child. One thing a friend of mine said, Megan Amram is a fantastic writer. You know, she also doesn't want to have children. And she said, listen, I might regret this one day. I might regret it. But at least if I regret not having children and I didn't have children, then the only person who suffers is me. She was like, but if I do it because society told me I wasn't going to feel complete otherwise, then I may hurt myself. I may in some ways not raise them as beautifully as I would if I didn't have all that resentment of making a mistake. And I might impact their lives and their children's life and their children's life. I impact lineages. And I'm someone who. I don't think my parents were equipped to have me. And it made my life fucking impossible and not worth living often, you know? And there was a good over two decades that I wished I was dead. I fantasized about it all the time. So tremendous harm is done when parents aren't ready. And I see my friends who live in privilege, who are struggling and their relationships are struggling and their dreams are struggling. And even raising a child, it's unpredictable as to what that child is going to grow into. You can't control everything. You can't helicopter parent them. It does a lot. It rips them to pieces. And I always wonder, fuck, what must this be like for everyone else? And so I do appreciate her candor. I can see where she's coming from. I do think she's written it in a moment of passion, you know, in a moment of panic, that she needs to get the word out there. But I think ultimately this is a net helpful rather than unhelpful piece. While understanding and agreeing with all of the objections you have.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I mean, I think if we're looking at this as a rallying cry, I just think it's not the rallying cry for me. And I think it's too narrow. Tarot. And I think while. Because she is talking to CIS het women, because statistically they give birth more. If it's a rallying cry, the cry's got to include everyone. And I also think every Single one of these statements about, I know what you're saying about like pregnancy, bringing a child in raises the stakes. But like all of these points to me can also just apply to like living life, which sucks right now, now, no matter who you are. And I think making the rallying cry more towards fixing the root issue and less about the pregnancy. That's just where I'm at right now. And I am someone who doesn't have kids, probably can't have kids, haven't checked. And if I do have kids, we're going to foster or foster adopt. So I, I am supposed to be reading this and being like, yes, you know, and it's not, not pulling me in because I just don't think it is speaking to me as an effective rallying cry. And I think it's focused really on birth versus children living here, which is so fucked. You know, Republicans care about birth. They don't care about if the children live as seen in like gun regulations.

[Jamila Jamil]

Not knowing if your children are going to get shot at school, like my country does not even think about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Exactly. But that's us too. Yes, we are adults, but when we say we don't care about children, like we were children, they didn't care about, they don't care about people. And that's where I'm, I'm like, the rallying cry needs to be on the system. Because no matter where you're at, birth, toddler, grown up, adult, whatever, we are struggling because of the system that has been set up, that needs to be demolished 100%.

[Jamila Jamil]

But I think, like I said, I think people are getting to a point of disenfranchisement and disillusionment where things are getting worse every month. I've never witnessed a news cycle like the last few years. So Even like from 2019 onwards or 2015 onwards, I've never witnessed this. And the way it's been ramping up and escal even in the last 12 months has been absolutely petrifying.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And so, but it's also on purpose. They're like, people don't realize that executive orders mean nothing. They are press releases. It is a deadline article. It is not what's happening. It's not into law, it's not into play. Yes, it has power, but it's also a complicated, complex process. Like an executive order cannot override federal laws and statutes which have to be passed by Congress and then signed by the President. So I'm just saying, like, it is not definitive when this goes to the press, depending on what it is but they are flooding us with them so that we feel like shit. So that he gets to feel like a big, powerful, big boy with a pen who is signing things. And that we feel like we cannot do anything back because there's just too much, actually.

[Jamila Jamil]

But I think that it's real that they've gotten rid of a lot of information on women's health care and that's pretty pivotal for, for having a child.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The stuff that is real is real. But I'm saying we are being flooded with so much stuff so that we don't feel like we can focus on.

[Jamila Jamil]

The real things too much to even tolerate. But I think what this article is, is it's actually a tell. It's a tell that people have lost faith in mass movements and in acts of resistance because we've at many points tried and it hasn't worked. And I am not someone who thinks we should give up. I think we should keep going. But I think some people have, you know, especially in a country where you're being told you're not really allowed to protest anymore and if you do protest, you might get thrown in jail and then there's no way for you to get out. So I think people are going, okay, well then I guess we're just going to have to take this to individualism. And individualism is the death of society.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think you're adding a well said point that doesn't exist in this article in the sense of, of like acts of resistance. People have lost faith in them for a reason. It's not because people are like lazy or don't care anymore. Any reason they could make a headline of it is because of things like government consequences or effectiveness or the fact that a piece like this is not written to include everyone. It's only including a very certain type of like binary woman, which is never going to make it a feminist rallying cry. It can't be feminist if it's not for everyone. And she's titled it feminist. Right. So that's where it's like these resistance movements are failing for reasons. And it's not on the individuals.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, totally. And I think if liberals or the left had a great track record at organizing and getting together and agreeing on. What do you mean?

[Chelsea Devontez]

They all wore pink to Congress?

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, exactly. I think if we had any kind of track record of actually being impactful or effective or being able to get something done without bickering to death and then eating each other alive, I could understand her feeling more like, hey guys, let's get together. But I've lost faith in liberals. I don't see us getting any fucking shit done. I feel fatigued and exhausted and afraid of liberals. And I am one.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What do you mean afraid?

[Jamila Jamil]

Because I find them to be so ostracizing, sanctimonious, terrifying and threatening. On the right, if you say one thing they agree with, they will overlook all the things you say that they disagree with. On the left, if you say one thing they disagree with, everything else that you fucking agree with them over is deleted and you are erased and pushed away. And I'm not talking about cancel culture. I'm talking about like a cult, like terrifying culture that we exist within. On the left, specifically amongst liberals, you know, who are still capitalist. I think you know, the left means anti capitalist. And so I, I can see why. I find us disorganized and I find us ostracizing and I watch us police our, not just our language, but our speaking our thinking even. We're not allowed to try out new ideas. We're not allowed to dev from the strategy or deviate from the point. We're not allowed to look for nuance or context. Most of the pylons I've ever experienced have not been from the opposition, it's been from my own, where they've tried to cruelly dismantle me. Not just say, hey, I disagree with this because of that, but actually character assassinate. Call to ostracize, call to destroy me. And I've got my heart on my sleeve and I'm in the right place and I might not do things perfectly, but fuck me if you don't do things perfectly quickly. And you wonder why people are checking out. One of the many reasons that we lost the election is partially down to the fact that we demotivated people from being involved at all because they didn't feel welcome with us. So the left are not reliable currently. What needs to happen. In fact, I'm writing a substack at the moment about the devastating problems of the left and how we need to fix that so that we can actually deal with the problems on the other side. So we need that. So in the meantime, rather than waiting for the left to learn how to fucking organize a pit up in a fucking brewery, rather than waiting for billionaires to stop raping this country, rather than waiting for fairness, equity, parity, she's like, if this is a decision you're about to make in the next couple of weeks, months or years, remember you are allowed to take that power back.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I like the way you're saying it. I don't think that's what it was said.

[Jamila Jamil]

I'll rewrite here.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God, you're listening. You're doing a subject. And I want to say this. I really, really, really agree that there's a faction of liberal liberals who cruelly police. And that is really been horrifying.

[Jamila Jamil]

It's a big part of the culture.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think the rest of anyone who defines as liberal it is in a place where they don't want that anymore. And I think it's up to those people and up to me. I'm part of that. To remain strong in our values, but no longer stand for, like, cruel policing. And actually, I think I have a funny story for us to end on. Okay, so I have shared this story on my podcast. I've cut it out every time. I promise I won't do it this time. I'm promising myself very shortly, quickly. When I was getting married, I just. I didn't grow up around weddings. I really didn't know about wedding culture. And I was processing all my thoughts and feelings in my Instagram stories as I was planning my wedding, trying to learn what weddings were. I got so much nice feedback. And they're like, this is fun to participate in this. I would just make funny stories. And one time I made what I thought was a funny story about this wedding magazine. It's just harmless stories of, like, making fun of bouquets and how much dress is cost and being sad your wedding is over. And I sort of thought we had all agreed that weddings are fair game in the comedy world. We make fun of proposals. In New York Times, we make fun of Vogue wedding articles. Like, I was like, this is. There are certain things in comedy that are fair game. And I thought that was one of them. But someone sent my story that I truly believe was pretty harmless to the editor of the wedding magazine I had been joking about. And it really hurt her feelings. And I think she was in just an emotional place. And she then made a post where I woke up the next morning and I had women in my DMs being like, you're a wedding bully. I hope you die. You are ugly. Your husband's ugly. I hope you kill yourself before your wedding starts. Keep in mind, my jokes were like, should I get a bouquet that looks like a bunch of leaves from Home Depot? Like, it's really. I don't.

[Jamila Jamil]

I remember you. I was following you through all of that. I thought it was hilarious. And all my friends who were getting married found tremendous comfort in that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, it turns out Some people didn't. And I never. If I had known. If I had known this would hurt a magazine editor's feelings, I never would have done it. I just didn't even think it would. I don't know. I just thought we could all make fun of wedding stuff.

[Jamila Jamil]

Oh, I'm sorry. Not to be a cunt, but she's making a fucking wedding magazine, all right? It is an exploitative industry that. That preys upon on women's, like, fantasies and belief that they need to be a star for a day. Everyone needs to calm the fuck down. Well, yeah, I'm sorry. Weddings that are truly, like, alongside Valentine's motherfucking Day and all the other days, it's lovely. It's pageantry. It's unnecessary. They overcharge people. People can't fucking afford to buy their first house because of how much we overcharge people for weddings. A cake is suddenly 10 times the price because it's a quote unquote wedding cake. So I don't really give a fuck if you dare to somewhat participate in the pageantry, but also question the pageantry. And it hurt her feelings. Of course it hurt her feelings. That's her job on the line. Because she's making. She's part of an exploitative industry. The wedding industry is fucking exploitative. It's still fun. The makeup industry is exploitative. I like makeup, but I'm also going to make fun of some of the shit to do with makeup. Like when we have to file our noses down to look like Voldemort. Like, sorry, I'm sorry her feelings got hurt, but maybe she should, like, have a little fucking soul search and just think about what it is that she does and how she makes women feel. Like, you need this type of expensive bouquet. You need this hundred thousand dollar dress that you can never wear again.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I think what was nuts about it is that her magazine was the best one I read. It was actually really cool. In my stories. I was like, this is the best magazine of all of of them. Anyways, I just think she happened to be in a bad place, sent all her followers to tell me specific ways I was ugly and should die. Which is so funny because she then had some followers being like, hey, what you're doing to this woman is so much is actually cruel when she seems to have just like not done anything like that. Crazy or mean. Anyways, I apologize. She pins my apology. She reposts my apology. Never speaks me directly, but I was like, hey, I'm so sorry I hurt you. I deleted it.

[Jamila Jamil]

I'm gonna fight this woman.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, well, here's, here's where the story comes back to us. People went to your page and would tag you and be like, we cannot believe you follow this piece of shit wedding bully. That's what they're calling me. And they would tag you to further shame me.

[Jamila Jamil]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And. Well, no, I, I. And. But it goes back to exactly what we're talking about.

[Jamila Jamil]

I remember I being tagged in something about you, but I was like, she's really going to have to have killed someone for me to unfollow such a fabulous woman. I'm sorry.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, thank you. But it, I think what it goes to is, like, we're not allowed any nuance, any grace. Like, because I posted a picture of this woman holding a bouquet that I didn't like, I am no longer allowed to have a friend. And it's like, you guys, you can tell me that you didn't like my jewelry joke. You can tell me that you don't think I should comment on weddings. Why am I not allowed to have friends? And why should I die?

[Jamila Jamil]

This is what I'm saying. We are disgusting. We're appalling. We treat bad behavior as if it's some sort of a contagion. And I'm like, what is this, like a fascist state? Like, we're all like, anti fascism, anti fascism. We're fascists in the way that we behave towards one another emotionally. We're like, anti the police, anti the police. Defund the police. We behave like the police. Why were they reporting you to me? Why are they telling me who I can be friends with or not, who I can follow or not? Because we have to live in echo bubbles of perfect people when they're all little bastards who are bullying a woman, thinking that I'm gonna respond to them bullying a woman and I'm gonna go and bully her to. It is so insane to me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, it's just so interesting because had that person or anyone just sent me a message being like, hey, you know, this is a more independent magazine. Please don't make fun of it. I would have been like, oh, my God, deleted all of it. Like, you just, you just don't have to tell me I should kill myself. And you don't have point out flaws on my body for me to change my mind.

[Jamila Jamil]

And by the way, like I said, I've had far more bullying from the left than I have from the right. Yeah. All I'm saying is I see why people on the left are Going, okay, well, I guess I'm just gonna make my decision about what I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna encourage you to make your decision about what you're gonna do because no one's coming to help. No one's coming to help. Not even the people who agree with you, who are in the shit with you. Because if you don't say something perfectly, if you don't do everything perfectly, if you haven't lived a perfect life, they'll eat you alive. You won't have to have an abortion. They'll just kill you. So I get it. I. I understand why it's a problem, but I also see why people are taking matters into their own hands. She's doing anti pregnancy vigilantism.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, she really is. And you know what? I know we. We have like an incredible community. We get a lot of patreon discussion about these articles. And so I'm gonna actually challeng community to like, I know we're going to have disagreements, I know we're going to have thoughts, but like, to conversate on the patreon in, like, the way we want this community, our world, to move forward to others.

[Jamila Jamil]

The way you want to be spoken to when you want to get criticized. If you want to criticize someone, criticize them in a way that you would actually respond to. Because shame just creates public obedience and private voting in the other direction.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, exactly. So let's talk in a way where we, like, want to have the conversation and let's change minds and come together. I agree with you on the whole, but I think our small communities like this, this one, you and me on the zoom, other people, like, we can also change, like how this party is run as we, like, fight for the things that are important to us.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, we can try, but we're up against. We're up against monsters who control the algorithms and the Internet, so.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But we're still gonna try.

[Jamila Jamil]

We're still gonna keep trying, but in the meantime, not matter a little bit of individual vigilantism.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, click lit quiz. Three questions. We're both gonna answer all three of them. First, was the article well written?

[Jamila Jamil]

It was 65% well written.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would agree with that. It was technically well written, but kind of the emotion that should go into good writing was off. For me.

[Jamila Jamil]

The things that were in there were correct. But I think well written means something that is personable and something that is compelling and something that contains more context and nuance. This felt like a download of much needed information. But I wouldn't say that constitutes being completely well written for me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, agree. Okay, second question. Did it reading this article make you want to scream about it with a friend?

[Jamila Jamil]

No.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm also a no. I'm like, I don't need to be. Listen, Elon's talking about natalism. I don't like, just go jizz on your own. I don't need to do this with you. My dog.

[Jamila Jamil]

I wasn't mad at the article at all. It didn't make me want to scream at it. But I also.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No. Scream. Scream about it. Like, you gotta send this to a friend and discuss it.

[Jamila Jamil]

No, but I think there were many points within the article that I am going to incorporate into when I talk about the dangers of having children. Because I talk about some of these things, but a lot of it I talk about is the emotional decision, the emotional ways in which it impacts you. And I think it is actually very important to remember to remind people of the realities of motherhood.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Interesting. Okay. Okay. And finally, did reading this article deepen your thinking on the subject?

[Jamila Jamil]

Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, for me, a definite yes. I think even for me, really keeping my foot focus. Just my individual, personal. You know, we're just talking about the problem, but like, I really want to focus on the capitalism behind all these decisions that are seeming very gendered from the Republicans that are at the root of them. Capitalism and about money. And like, yes, it's about money because we use women as labor for them to get more money. But it is a capitalist problem.

[Jamila Jamil]

They also are 80% of the consumer market. You know, there's many women ways in which women are the economy. The idea that we are then victimized in the country that we keep of float is so bizarre.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, you. I have screamed that exact stat on this podcast so many times. We are very aligned. We honestly should both get it as a tattoo under our bangs. And then we just go, we're 80%.

[Jamila Jamil]

I really love what you do. And I love conversations like this. And I love the fact that, you know, this. It just like, further demonstrates how much women should rule the world and the way that we can disagree passionately for an hour and it can feel. Feel fun.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. And it can, like, further us as humans, but you can still adore each other at the end and be like, we're in this together. And also feminism is not everyone agreeing, y' all.

[Jamila Jamil]

No, it's not monolithic.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, exactly. Which I think is like, why I love doing this so much. And thank you so much for making the time for this, everyone. If you Want to hear the funny version of Jamila and I talking? Go listen to her podcast, which will be out when this episode drops.

[Jamila Jamil]

Yeah, it's really filthy. It's not safe for work. It's not safe for children to hear. It's the darker side of me I have ever unveiled publicly. You're going to hear about a time I orgasmed in front of 6,000 people. And so you're just going to have to find out more about that on my podcast.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my God, I cannot wait. And I'll go follow Jameela. I'm sure you already do all the things. And thank you so much for being here.

[Jamila Jamil]

I adore you. And to all those little bastards who ever tried to pull us apart, you can you believe will never succeed. We shouldn't be abandoning the people we disagree with. We should be finding ways to make them feel safe and call them in. Even if that's extra labor, and that's exhausting neurologically. When you make someone feel safe, they understand your information. When you make someone feel endangered, the oxygen leaves their brain and goes to their muscles for fight or. Or flight. So now they're functioning on literally less oxygen in their brain. It's not about patience. It's about neuro science. I write for this till the end.

[Chelsea Devontez]

To the end.

[Jamila Jamil]

To the end. I ride at dawn for you, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jerry and Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks, but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm, where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now, you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.