Viral Article Book Club: How Women Invented Book Clubs (with Jess McHugh)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast Episode: Viral Article Book Club: How Women Invented Book Clubs (with Jess McHugh)
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Jess McHugh
Release Date: July 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez delves into the transformative role of women's book clubs with special guest Jess McHugh, the author of the Washington Post article "How Women Invented Book Clubs: Revolutionizing Reading and Their Own Lives." The conversation explores the historical significance, cultural impact, and evolving dynamics of book clubs, particularly focusing on their influence in empowering women and fostering community.

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The Historical Significance of Women's Book Clubs

Jess McHugh begins by highlighting the origins of book clubs as a means for women to engage intellectually during times when they were excluded from formal academic and philosophical discussions. She explains how book clubs became a sanctuary for women to explore and express their thoughts beyond traditional domestic roles.

Jess McHugh [08:27]: "I kind of think of them as almost Freudian slips of what people really longed for and feared."

Chelsea adds that book clubs provided a structured yet intimate environment for women to discuss ideas that they might not feel comfortable expressing otherwise.

Chelsea Devantez [13:11]: "It's giving you the structure with which to funnel thoughts and ideas, helping you start something deeper."

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Exclusion and Integration: Gender and Racial Lines

The discussion shifts to the exclusion of women from broader intellectual spheres and how book clubs served as an alternative platform. Jess underscores the intersectionality of gender and race, noting that while book clubs were predominantly white, they also became spaces for black women to form their own reading groups.

Jess McHugh [19:50]: "My understanding, unfortunately, was, especially in the 19th century, there was a very much the whole kind of Susan B. Anthony white feminism, suffragettes being racist..."

Chelsea reflects on the historical context, emphasizing the challenges faced by women of color in accessing education and literature.

Chelsea Devantez [20:48]: "The nuance of colorism."

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The Role of Books in Empowering Women

Jess elaborates on how books, unlike other forms of communal activities like knitting or embroidery, provided a medium for deeper intellectual and emotional expression. Book clubs enabled women to "smuggle" their personal thoughts and experiences through discussions of characters and narratives.

Jess McHugh [11:50]: "There's this sort of transgressive that happens when you're women together talking about books where you can smuggle in ideas where you might not necessarily feel comfortable saying them otherwise."

Chelsea concurs, likening books to structured activities that allow for personal introspection and growth.

Chelsea Devantez [13:15]: "Books are giving you the structure with which to funnel thoughts and ideas, helping you start something deeper."

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Women’s Dominance in the Book Industry

The conversation highlights the continuing dominance of women in the book industry, accounting for approximately 80% of all fiction sales. Jess attributes this to societal norms that encourage reading among women while often discouraging it among men.

Jess McHugh [17:53]: "There's still a certain amount of socialization that teaches men that reading is feminine."

Chelsea notes the irony in how men dominate other fictional spaces like film and television but lag in literary engagement.

Chelsea Devantez [18:54]: "Memoirs and novels are also an exercise in empathy because you just have to bring yourself to someone else's life in order to enjoy it."

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Diversity and Modern Book Clubs

The episode transitions to the current state of book clubs, addressing the lack of diversity in celebrity-endorsed groups and the persistence of predominantly white and female memberships. Jess acknowledges the progress made but emphasizes the need for greater inclusivity.

Jess McHugh [21:57]: "Oprah... was also a big milestone. It was to me, the classic friction of these sort of white elitist hegemonies and people actually engaging with the literature."

Chelsea connects this to contemporary movements, mentioning various celebrities who have launched their own book clubs and the importance of diverse voices in these spaces.

Chelsea Devantez [22:45]: "Was Oprah our first celebrity book club and then white women copied her?"

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The Transformative Power of Book Clubs Today

Jess and Chelsea discuss the enduring transformative power of book clubs, even in the digital age. Jess believes that whether online or in-person, the essence of book clubs lies in the meaningful interactions and diverse perspectives they foster.

Jess McHugh [25:35]: "What's important is less the kind of form per se and more what's happening inside that form."

Chelsea affirms the importance of community and intimate discussions that book clubs provide, regardless of the medium.

Chelsea Devantez [26:58]: "The transformative part is the community. Thankfully, we have found a way to do that on Patreon..."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Chelsea and Jess, celebrating the impact of book clubs in shaping personal and collective identities. Both acknowledge the vital role of book clubs in fostering empathy, community, and intellectual growth.

Jess McHugh [29:05]: "You're in without knowing it. People are basically inviting you into their homes and into their space and into their cars."

Chelsea Devantez [29:28]: "This was such a treat."

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Notable Quotes

• Jess McHugh [08:27]: "I kind of think of them as almost Freudian slips of what people really longed for and feared."
• Chelsea Devantez [13:11]: "It's giving you the structure with which to funnel thoughts and ideas, helping you start something deeper."
• Jess McHugh [17:53]: "There's still a certain amount of socialization that teaches men that reading is feminine."
• Jess McHugh [25:35]: "What's important is less the kind of form per se and more what's happening inside that form."
• Jess McHugh [29:05]: "People are basically inviting you into their homes and into their space and into their cars."

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a profound exploration of the pivotal role women's book clubs have played and continue to play in shaping not only literary culture but also social and personal identities. Through insightful dialogue, Chelsea and Jess underscore the enduring power of communal reading and discussion as catalysts for change and empowerment.

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For more discussions and to join the book club community, visit the podcast's Patreon page and engage with fellow listeners.

Transcript

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Jess McHugh]

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[Jess McHugh]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea devontez. I am a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are doing a viral article book club episode about a Washington Post article titled How Women Invented Book Clubs Revolutionizing Reading and Their Own lives by Jess McHugh. This article came out in March 2021, but I have a very special reason for choosing it today. This article discusses how deeply transformative book clubs are in a really well researched way, tying in history, themes and things we discuss all the time on this podcast. I'm going to be reading specific quotes from it that I think you're going to love. It is very theme of the podcast Theme of the podcast and another reason why I chose this article is because I have an extremely special guest here to discuss it with me, the author of the article herself. So let's dive in. My guest today is the article's author, Jess McHugh. Jess is a journalist and co host of the podcast Deep Cover the Truth About Sarah. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Atlantic, and in 2021 she released her acclaimed book Americanon. Okay Jess, thank you so much for coming on. This is the first time we've ever had the author of the article on one of our article episodes and your article meant so much to me. Everyone in my life sent it to me. Obviously, because this podcast is a book club and I asked you on TODAY because I saw that you Have a brand new podcast. And I said, perfect. I will pull her on, make her discuss this article. But also you can tell people about your new podcast Again. It is called Deep Cover the Truth About Sarah. Please tell everyone about it. I listened to it early. Thank you for those episodes. I loved it. It got me to work out, which is really hard for me to do because I get bored. But your podcast got me through.

[Jess McHugh]

Well, first of all, thank you so much. Cause, I mean, as a writer, usually I feel like I'm toiling away in my apartment and I feel like the things that I write just go out into the ether. So it was so nice when I first got your message to hear that it resonated. Cause that's why we do it. So basically, the podcast is called the Truth about Sarah. It's the new season of this great show called Deep Cover, about people who live double lives. And basically, I've spent the past few years researching women con artists. I got hooked because of Brittany Dawn. I'm not sure if you're familiar.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's the influencer, right?

[Jess McHugh]

Yes. Evangelical TikTok influencer story for another time. But I did go semi undercover at her, like, women's evangelical retreat and saw people get baptized in a horse trough. Yes. And from then on, I was kind of like, what's happening in this space of semi legal? But also, she was sued by the state of Texas grifts. And. Yeah, so I kind of had my eye on that kind of thing when I heard about the story of Sarah Kavanaugh, who was this woman who or still is around, but she was a social worker at the VA Hospital in Providence, Rhode island, and she used her position there to basically steal insight and also documents in order to pass herself off as a wounded Marine dying of cancer. And she defrauded a bunch of charities and individuals to the tune of, like, close to $300,000, I think.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, it was a gripping listen. And so you're now writing a book on female con artists. I assume that's where we'll hear about the Brittany Dawn Horstroff story.

[Jess McHugh]

Yes, hopefully.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So what's just one headline for you as you've been writing this new book?

[Jess McHugh]

Sure. So it's been many years of research, and it's kind of changed into different things. And I'm. I'm currently seeking an editor, so if there are any editors listening, please hit me up.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm sure there's a lot. We've got a big book community.

[Jess McHugh]

Oh, good. But, yeah, my idea sort of shifted, and part of the Reason why I was excited to talk to you too is there's sort of a. A sort of a memoir aspect of. I don't think I'm, you know, this level of a scammer. And I don't think most women are this level of kind of scammers. But the broader argument of my book is that patriarchy forces women into all kinds of crouches of survival. And so whether it's buying some kind of a sketchy Moon juice serum, or whether it's selling something through a multi level marketing scheme because you don't really have any other options, my sort of argument is that patriarchy has permeated the world in which we live, whether it's our work, our health, our personal relationships. And so it makes women, I mean, all people, I think, are susceptible to scams in a deregulated America. But in general, yeah, women even more so because it's like the access to health care is so much worse. Even things like basic pain being dismissed. So of course, when you have someone saying, hey, I went through the same thing and this copper bracelet cured me, of course you're more susceptible to that. So that's kind of the headline for.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is why I love your work. Because I have been saying for so long that new age culture women are so susceptible to it because we don't have a health care system. So it's like, yep, I'm going to see a witch. No hospital in my small town. Go into the town witch and listen. No, no shade to witches. Some are good, some are scammers. Okay, so, Jess, you followed me on Instagram a while back, and I saw your little name pop up. And I was like, oh, my God, Jess McHugh. And I knew your name instantly because I had typed it everywhere. A quote that you had written was on my website. It's on every single show. Notes from every podcast episode we did. From the very. I think from the very beginning, this quote is there. And I dmed you and I said, jess, and I'm obsessed with you. And I assumed you had followed me. Cause you were like, who is this woman quoting me constantly on the Internet? But you seem surprised by it. So what. What led you to my page? Is this a psychic moment? What. What brought us together?

[Jess McHugh]

No, I do think it was a psychic moment. Because first of all, that made my whole week. I was like, whoa, this is incredible that this has resonated with someone so much. You showed up on my like, recommended for you. I think we had some female writers. Like, there must be female writers. That we have in common. And I was like, ooh. And then I saw that you had written for so many of these great shows, and I was like, oh, she's got this book coming out. I had no idea about any of this. And when you said that to me, I called my mom. I called my mom, and I was like, this famous writer has read my thing and has it up on her wall. Can you believe that?

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is amazing. We talk about psychic moments on this podcast, so this truly is a psychic moment. Okay, I want to read the quote, too, to everyone, even though you've probably already heard me say it. The book club, dismissed as a feminine, frivolous time to drink wine and gossip, is also a radical activity. A rare place where women have long been able to engage with the transformative power of books. So that, to me, encapsulated, like, everything I believe in, everything I'm trying to do with this podcast. You wrote this in 2021, and I feel like you were on the precipice of seeing, like, book clubs are having a resurgence more and more and more. That was 2021. There are only more book clubs now. I don't know if you saw, but Jeremiah on Love island just started one. John Mulaney started one. Dua Lipa. So what drew you to write that article in 2021? What inspired it?

[Jess McHugh]

Yeah, that's a great question. And I love that book clubs are becoming more of a thing, because I'm a big proponent. I was in one even as a little kid, and I loved it in general. Similar to the Khan book, I'm fascinated by aspects of culture that people dismiss as stupid or low brow somehow or unserious. And I just think that it's where so much deep, serious thought goes on. And those comments are often reserved for things that are women specific in some way. So book clubs were thought of as very feminine, and for the most part, they are more women. But the reason why there are more women is because women were excluded from a lot of other academic spaces in which they would discuss books, in which they would discuss big ideas. And so it's kind of like, you know, people get relegated to this zone, and then that zone gets denigrated, whether it's book clubs or pop music or whatever it may be. It was also in the context of my first book, Ms. Cold Americanon, and it came out in 2021. And the argument of that book was basically all of the books on your bookshelf that you dismiss as unimportant or even uninteresting. Whether it's a dictionary or an almanac or a cookbook, these were actually the books that shaped American society, society for centuries, for generations, far more than even things like great novels or say, the Declaration of Independence. Because if you were a middle class person up until, say the 1950s, probably the books that you read, that you thought about, that shaped your mind were those books. They were how to books. They were how do I get through the day? How do I spell this word? How do I become more successful? And I kind of think of them as almost Freudian slips of what people really longed for and feared. And I think book clubs kind of slot nicely into that where, especially in the 19th century, interestingly, you know, you have all of these men who are either having to work or then going off to war during the Civil War. And so you have more women than men finishing high school. And then you have these educated women who feel like, what do I do with this now? And that's where you see book clubs really flourish. So long answer to your question. Wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No, absolutely incredible. And I'm going to continue to read your own writing at you and then ask you some questions. So I pulled some other pieces that I love. In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the first American reading circles, a precursor to book clubs, required little more than a thirst for literature and a desire to discuss it with like minded women. Journalist Margaret Fuller held one session of what she called her conversations in 1839. Fuller was the first American female war correspondent, a magazine editor, and an all around feminist renegade. She saw her club as anything but a substitute for embroidery. Instead, she rallied women who were, as she wrote, desirous to answer the great questions, what were we born to do? How shall we do it? And though I think it could be an obvious answer, I think there's more to it. So I'm still going to ask, why do you think it was books that led women to these really powerful discussions where a knitting circle or an embroidering circle, which was also bringing women together in community, wasn't having that power. What was it about books, you think, that made these clubs so much more active for women in like pushing their growth forward?

[Jess McHugh]

Mm, yeah, I love that. And I think it's a few things. I suspect that it's sort of how we use book clubs now or even when we're talking about books. Like sometimes when I'll recommend a book to a friend of mine, I'll say, oh, the main character feels this, or they survive this, or they go through this, and I Think that's so incredible. And it's often kind of a way of smuggling something of yourself. We have to do it a little bit less now just because we can actually say, I feel, you know, oppressed by this system, or I feel frustrated with this marriage or whatever it may be. But I think especially in the 1830s, women certainly did not have the freedom to express those kind of things. And so there's this sort of, I think, transgressive that happens when you're women together talking about books where you can smuggle in ideas where you might not necessarily feel comfortable saying them otherwise. And I also think, you know, as someone who loves books, but even as a little girl, I remember feeling like the world opened up when I read certain books. And I think that's the feeling that these women must have felt, especially when the rest of their day was often so monotonous.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, that was. That was so beautiful. A way to smuggle in. Yeah, your. Your thoughts and feelings that you maybe couldn't. You couldn't just be knitting and be like, what do you think about cheating on your husband? You know, but, like, if there was maybe a book about it, hey, this.

[Jess McHugh]

Whole Victorian domesticity thing isn't doing it for me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I think I ha. I would have had the same answer but said much worse. Which is like, one. I think if you give someone a blank piece of paper and you say, like, draw a self portrait, it can be so hard for so many people to even start. But if you said, hey, draw a pie of cake that is emulative of a self portrait, everyone could start. And I see books as that. Like, it's giving you the structure with which to, like, funnel thoughts and ideas, helping you, like, start something deeper. And yeah, I also agree. I think oftentimes, and I will say, the thesis of why this article meant so much for me is that you're feeling something, you're knowing something, you're living something, you're doing something, but you don't realize it until it's articulated outside of you. And that's what I felt about your article when I read it. I said, oh, my God, that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm trying to do. That's why I love books. But I wouldn't have had the words for it unless it was articulated outside of me, which I think is also what a book club does. Allows you to discuss something you've always been living but never knew how to discuss.

[Jess McHugh]

I love that. The last thing I was just gonna say about that, I think to your point, what's interesting about also about the way that book clubs aren't dismissed as silly or as feminine, ultimately served those kind of masculine spheres of power that wanted women to just knit and just embroider. And just embroider.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah.

[Jess McHugh]

And I think the fact that it was denigrated early and often speaks to its power, actually.

[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Okay, so you discussed how women were excluded from philosophical clubs and universities. And so this is also where they find their space to engage with larger ideas. And then you wrote, once on the fringes, women are now one of the most important driving forces in the book world. They continue to amount for a staggering 80% of all fiction sales. One commentator went so far as to write, without women, the novel would die. Now this has remained true. Women are really keeping the book industry fully alive. Now, I know it would take a lot of research, but just your opinion. Why do you think women continue to read more than men these days?

[Jess McHugh]

I do, unfortunately, kind of sadly, both for men and for women, but especially for men. I do think there's still a certain amount of socialization that teaches men that reading is feminine. So from a young age, I was in a book club as a little girl. My younger brother certainly wasn't. You know, he was out playing hockey, which he didn't like, and football, which he also didn't like. Yeah, but I think we're not telling young boys, oh, reading is an activity that you should enjoy or you might like. And so of course, when they grow into men, they don't really even think of it as an option. I don't know how many of them are conceiving of it as, oh, that's girly. But I do think even in the men in my kind of circles who do read, they almost exclusively read nonfiction. And I think there's this notion that novels are wasted time or whatever it may be. But I also, I kind of love how important women are to this huge marketplace. Even I think it was Stephen King who writes, again, not particularly girly novels. Someone asked him, oh, who's your ideal reader? And he immediately said, well, I know it's a woman because that's who buys my books and that's who buys books in general. So when I'm imagining my reader, that's who I start imagining. But, yeah, I don't know. I do think it's a shame, though.

[Chelsea Devontez]

No. Yeah. And it's so fascinating. I know there is some research out there. Maybe someone listening has it. You will drop it in the Patreon comments. I mean, in the fictional space, I think everything you said is exactly correct. But it's so interesting to me that when it comes to like TV or films, which are also fictional spaces largely run by males. And so there was something in the psyche. And also I have learn from this podcast, Hollywood was started by women or was really founded by women, and then obviously they were kicked out. But so it is not an actual, like, fiction is for women, not for men. That's not true. It's something else that got really fucked up. I also think engaging with memoirs, which I know are nonfiction, but memoirs and novels are also an exercise in empathy because you just have to bring yourself to someone else's life in order to enjoy it. That's what makes it so enjoyable. Even when you're reading a character you don't agree with or a life you don't agree with. And I wonder where that role is in the male readership that doesn't engage with novels and things like that. Is it something to that extent?

[Jess McHugh]

I don't know. Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I do think everyone, especially men in charge, could do with a touch more empathy. Get those bitches in a book club. I'm telling you, it will solve a lot of your political issues.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I completely agree. So another part I loved reading about this is that reading circles cross racial and class lines. In 1827, black women in Lynn, Massachusetts, formed one of the first reading groups for black women, the Society of Young Ladies. Black Women in other cities on the east coast would soon follow suit. Then there was like a picture in the article of a woman who was denied a teaching job for being, quote, too black. She started her own school and a movement. And so I really loved reading that part of it, because also across racial lines, the exclusion from reading and access to literature and education. And so when you were going through this, did you ever see integration in the book clubs or were they pretty segregated for a long time?

[Jess McHugh]

I didn't see any. Again, I'm not an expert specifically on book clubs, so if someone does correct me, please do. My understanding, unfortunately, was, especially in the 19th century, there was a very much the whole kind of Susan B. Anthony white feminism, suffragettes being racist, this kind of thing where it was like, I'm laughing because it's sad. Yeah. It's like, oh, let's make this as palatable as possible. And also, we're harboring some pretty clear racism ourselves. So my understanding is no. And then the other article you referenced was actually something else I wrote for the Washington Post about Nanny Burroughs, who. It's another kind of twist on the problem of racism, which was that she was told that she was too darkly black to teach and that if she were slightly more light skinned, that she could be fine. And so she was denied a teaching job at a black school, I believe, for that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right. Wow. The nuance of colorism.

[Jess McHugh]

Yeah, really, really tricky. But Nanny Burrow is also an incredible person who just, you know, did not give up and went on to found a school that welcomed everyone. But, yeah, it's interesting when you talk about book clubs in general and kind of education initiatives when it comes to the question of racism and education America, because on the one hand, it was a way for kind of young people of color who were trying to better themselves to have some inroads and some access to education. But it was often capped pretty early and then didn't kind of give them the dividends that that one would hope.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, I think we're still seeing the effects of that in the publishing industry today, which still remains mostly white authors, white run. Like, I'm thinking of our celebrity book clubs. It's Emma Roberts, Kaia Gerber, There's a goop book club, Jenna Bush, Dua lipa, Oprah and Reese Witherspoon. And so on the whole, there's not a lot of diversity in these book clubs either, which, again, has brought me to. I can't believe I'm saying this so often, but I'm just so grateful. Jeremiah from Love island has started a book club. I can't believe society led us here, but here we are.

[Jess McHugh]

Although I will say Oprah, I think, picked up some choices back in the day. And just the fact that there was, you know, a black woman having a hugely influential book club was also, I think, a big milestone. And again, interestingly, was to me, that classic friction of these sort of white elitist hegemonies and people actually engaging with the literature, because there was. I think it was Jonathan Franzen, who famously was like, oprah picked my book, but I don't want to do it, because that's so whatever. And I remember thinking, like, are you kidding me? It's Oprah. Go on the show and thank your lucky stars.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is such. I didn't. I was saying it out loud. And now that you said it back to me, I realize I've missed something huge, which is, was Oprah our first celebrity book club and then white women copied her?

[Jess McHugh]

That's a great question. I feel like she has to be at least one of the first.

[Chelsea Devontez]

One of the first in that capacity. Yeah, yeah. Like, where it's like, I'm already an established celebrity. I also. I will post a link to this crossover episode. It's a episode that Tracy Thomas went on, who is our dear friend and guest, and she has a book podcast, and she was talking about how Oprah's book club was really picking great works of literature when the book club started as a way, though, to be like, I am a serious person. I can be a black woman who has a book club is born out of, like, a really shitty place of, like, I have to, like, prove that I somehow deserve to have a book club. And that when she went on to choose James phrase, million little pieces, and it turned out to be a lie, that is why it was a big thing for her, because that was one of the first, like, choosing, like, not a fun book, but it wasn't like, Tolstoy. And then that book blew up and, like, what did it say about her book club? I will. I'll link it. It's a whole spinoff conversation. Okay, so I just want to read this final two paragraphs. That, again, really spoke to me. That feeling of self worth is a through line that has continued into book clubs today. Quote, talking about literature is not about talking about literature. It is also examining one's ideas, identities, thoughts, and sense of self, said Kristy Craig, PhD, a sociologist who examines the subversive possibilities of women's book clubs, that they were creating self worth and they were a way to discuss identity. And you said this has proved true during the pandemic. As book clubs meet online and some have seen increased attendance, readers seek out a particular intimacy that can be bridged through books. They find, quote, real society. As Margaret Fuller once wrote, in an uncertain world, book clubs can still serve as a place built patience, mutual reverence and fearlessness, which again, are all the things we try and do. So what is your opinion on book clubs today, specifically when so many of them are online or they are listicles or like, I don't know what happens in Dua Lipa's book club? Like, I don't know if they meet. Basically, such a big part of this is the community part and the discussion versus relationship with it as something far away. The transformative part is the community. Thankfully, we have found a way to do that on Patreon, but outside of our Patreon, we are an online book club. So do you think they're still accomplishing something transformative or do you think this really is about meeting in person and bringing that community element in order to have this power you're talking about of the book club?

[Jess McHugh]

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it's both, to be honest. And I kind of leave celebrity book club like I'm leaving Dua Lipa's book club, maybe outside of what I'm about to say, although I'm sure it is value added and I would love for her to choose any of my books. But do what?

[Chelsea Devontez]

If you're out there, get on it.

[Jess McHugh]

If you would love americanon. I think in general, what's important is, as I sort of said in the end of that, is the coming together in whatever form it may take. And to me, what's important is less the kind of form per se and more what's happening inside that form. So what I meant there was both that book clubs are this again, as we were saying, this sort of rare place to express your innermost thoughts and your desires. And sometimes you're smuggling it through whatever the main character is feeling. But it's also when I talk about patience, I think it's also about learning what other people think. Some of these moments where I've just grunted internally and then had some big revelation has been because some someone has said something I 1000% disagree with about a book that I love. And to me, that's the power of book clubs too. It's not Just here's what I think and you should listen to me and I'm going to express myself, which is great, but it's also, oh wow, my neighbor has this totally insane idea about this book and it just opens up your kind of world to me. There's almost in that way, something 12 steppy about it of you're meeting people who are maybe not your walk of life or maybe not your exact shared ideas. And that's actually the power of it too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So beautifully said. And you're so right. I'm even thinking back to like some of what I think are my greatest like writing relationships as coworkers is someone you disagree with because not even to change my mind, they will make my own arguments sharper in the practice of me finding out why I disagree with them, or how having to articulate to them or having to debate a topic makes your ideas even sharper or changes your mind. Normally we end with the Click lit quiz where we both answer three questions, but since you wrote this, I'm just gonna answer it to your face. Was it well written? Yes, incredibly. Did it make you wanna scream about it with someone? Yes. And also I just wanna thank everyone who dm's me this article. So I was sent your article by a bunch of the cookies way back in 2021 and finally did it deepen your thinking on the topic? I actually already said my answer within this conversation, but I'll just underline it, which is when someone else articulates something you've been feeling but haven't put words to, it allows you to understand what's been happening, but then also further it with so much more intention so you can go so much deeper. And so reading this really helped me realize the rubric of what I'm trying to do via a podcast. But you know, we've been doing it for five years now and it was just, just so. It's just so beautiful when you get to see something reflected to you that you didn't know you needed.

[Jess McHugh]

Absolutely. And first of all, thank you so much. This is making my whole day. And I also think, to your point now that I'm thinking even more about specifically what you're doing. What I think is great about it is that it's reaching people who you might not know at all. Like even just the randomness of us meeting online. I'm sure there's a lot of your listeners who are maybe not people who would be someone who would be in a book club in your neighborhood. And I also think what's great about a podcast in general is that you can engage with it in the intimacy of your home. And there's something really kind of profound about that in that you know you're in without knowing it. People are basically inviting you into their homes and into their space and into their cars. And I also think that's a great place for self reflection and for thinking about all of these kind of things. Bigger questions that we've talked about.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So stunning. You're such a stunning thinker, Jess. Tell everyone where they can find you, follow you and support your work.

[Jess McHugh]

Yeah, thank you. So I have a website, JessMcugh.com where you can see what I'm up to. Definitely check out the podcast the Truth About Sarah. Deep cover wherever you get your podcasts. And I am on Instagram posting about my foster dogs and my parisian life@JessMyQ3.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And Jess, I don't know if you know this, but we also just got a foster dog without meaning to. So we're living a similar journey. You're in Paris on the foster dog grind, but I'm on that grind. I'm on that hustle of a life of a bunch of dogs.

[Jess McHugh]

I love it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Thank you so much for coming on. This was such a treat.

[Jess McHugh]

Thank you. This is lovely.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A big thank you to our senior managing producer Christina Lopez, our executive producer Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and every plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes and if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there.

[Unknown]

We finally switched to T Mobile because they know that those of us here and there want to stay well connected.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Let's watch a movie.

[Unknown]

Thanks to T Mobile we get Netflix included so we can all enjoy our favorite shows and movies. Now the hard part is getting them to agree on a movie. Switch today and get a Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI on us. Plus your plan prize is guaranteed for five years. Save today, guarantee for tomorrow. Tap the banner to learn more or visit a store. Guarantees monthly price of contacts and data exclusions like taxes and fee supply. See exclusions and details@t mobile.com thanks for.

[Jess McHugh]

Selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check. Whoa.

[Unknown]

When did I get here.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What do you mean?

[Unknown]

I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.

[Jess McHugh]

It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It is the future.

[Jess McHugh]

It's. It's the present.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And just the convenience of Carvana.

[Jess McHugh]

Sorry to blow your mind.

[Unknown]

It's all good. Happens all the time.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.

[Jess McHugh]

Pick up. Times may vary and fees may apply.