Viral Article Book Club: Plagiarism, Crave, and the Romantasy Google Doc Gone Wrong

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Episode: Viral Article Book Club: Plagiarism, Crave, and the Romantasy Google Doc Gone Wrong
Release Date: April 25, 2025
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Zach Zimmerman

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Introduction

Timestamp: [01:00]

Chelsea Devantez introduces the episode by highlighting the focus on a provocative article submitted by Amelia on Patreon, titled "Did a Best Selling Romantasy Novelist Steal Another Writer's Story" by Katie Waldman. She also promotes her live show featuring Lauren Sanchez, emphasizing the behind-the-scenes insights unavailable in mainstream media.

Guest Introduction and Credentials

Timestamp: [01:00] - [03:09]

Chelsea welcomes Zach Zimmerman, a stand-up comedian, TV writer, and author known for their queer anti-capitalist comedy. Zach discusses their debut comedy special, "Surprise Me," which premiered on YouTube. Chelsea also mentions Zach's book, "Is It Hot In Here, Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth?" with a notable blurb from Joyce Carol Oates.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea: "I would rather write a second book than even ask people who love me to blurb it. That's how painful it is for me."
— [03:32]

Discussion on Blurbing and Publishing Challenges

Timestamp: [02:59] - [03:38]

Zach shares their experience with getting a blurb from Joyce Carol Oates, describing it as both rewarding and challenging. They discuss the emotional and logistical difficulties of soliciting blurbs, comparing it to pleading for acceptance of one’s creative work.

Notable Quote:
Zach: "It's like, will you love my child? Will you please love my child? Your child sucks. Your child's ugly."
— [03:38]

Main Topic: Plagiarism in the Romantasy Genre

Timestamp: [03:45] - [17:00]

Chelsea delves into the core article about Freeman suing Tracy Wolf, the author behind the Crave series, for plagiarism. She outlines Freeman’s journey: submitting numerous drafts to her agent, withdrawing her submission from the publisher Entangled after her agent let her go, and later discovering striking similarities between her unpublished work and Tracy Wolf’s published series.

Understanding the Romantasy Genre

Timestamp: [06:26] - [07:32]

Zach explains that Romantasy combines romance and fantasy elements, drawing parallels to popular works like "A Court of Thorns and Roses." Chelsea notes the genre's surge in popularity during the pandemic, attributing it to readers seeking escapism while confined at home.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea: "It's pornhub, but literary for women because there's so many of them."
— [08:23]

Publication Process and Collaborative Writing Concerns

Timestamp: [16:14] - [20:18]

The discussion shifts to the collaborative nature of writing the Crave series. Chelsea reveals that the publisher Liz Pelletier collaborated directly with Tracy Wolf, including shared workspaces like Google Docs. Zach questions the appropriateness of an agent actively co-writing a manuscript, highlighting potential conflicts of interest and creative boundaries.

Notable Quote:
Zach: "Once there's not a single person driving it. Yeah, you can start to ask AI to write a scene or a chapter."
— [16:40]

Legal and Ethical Implications of the Lawsuit

Timestamp: [25:11] - [37:11]

Chelsea and Zach explore the intricacies of Freeman’s lawsuit against Tracy Wolf and Entangled. They discuss the challenges in proving plagiarism within genres that rely heavily on shared tropes and settings, such as vampires in Alaska or common romantic plotlines. The conversation also touches on the role of agents in potentially mishandling or overstepping their creative involvement.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea: "She has also gently noted that Kim had forgotten to attach Freeman's novel to the email. So here's this agent being like, yeah, you know, Freeman wrote a book if you want it. They're like, yeah, I do, and forgets to send it."
— [24:15]

Impact on Creators and the Creative Process

Timestamp: [37:11] - [47:37]

The conversation broadens to discuss the broader implications of plagiarism and intellectual property theft in creative fields. Chelsea shares her personal experiences with idea theft and the emotional toll it takes, contrasting her positive experience of having her work recognized and utilized in popular shows like "Girls5Eva." They debate whether suing is a productive avenue or if creators should focus on producing new original content despite setbacks.

Notable Quotes:
Chelsea: "I've had six massive things stolen. I don't want to say stolen, because I don't know, it could have been groupthink. I think in a few cases, it definitely was groupthink, but it didn't change the fact that I had also done it."
— [38:56]

Zach: "The ultimate win is in the court of public opinion and sales. So put your book out."
— [53:22]

Click Lit Quiz Segment

Timestamp: [49:00] - [53:35]

Chelsea introduces the "Click Lit Quiz," a segment designed to engage listeners in evaluating the discussed article. The three questions assess the article's quality, emotional impact, and the depth it adds to the discourse on plagiarism in the Romantasy genre.

Notable Interaction:
Chelsea: "Did reading this article deepen your thinking on the topic?"
Zach: "Oh, yes. For sure... I need to read one of these books. I need to. I'm a little worried I'm gonna get sucked in."
— [52:04]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [53:35] - [55:27]

Chelsea wraps up the episode by reflecting on the necessity of recognizing and addressing plagiarism, especially in genres that are susceptible to idea replication. She underscores the importance of creativity and resilience in the face of such challenges, urging creators to continue producing original work despite the industry's pitfalls.

Notable Quote:
Chelsea: "If you have only ever have the one thing, you are likely headed for heartbreak."
— [47:29]

She also promotes Zach's work, encouraging listeners to support his comedy special and book.

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Key Takeaways:

• Romantasy Genre Dynamics: The blending of romance and fantasy has led to a surge in popularity, particularly during the pandemic, but also raises concerns about originality and plagiarism.

• Collaborative Writing Risks: The involvement of agents and publishers in the creative process can blur lines, potentially leading to unintentional or intentional idea theft.

• Legal Challenges in Plagiarism: Proving plagiarism in genres with common tropes is complex, often relying on patterns of similarities rather than direct copying.

• Impact on Creators: Plagiarism and idea theft can have severe emotional and financial repercussions, sometimes deterring creators from continuing their artistic endeavors.

• Creative Resilience: Despite setbacks, artists are encouraged to persist, innovate, and produce new content to sustain their careers and personal fulfillment.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Chelsea Devantez:
   "I would rather write a second book than even ask people who love me to blurb it. That's how painful it is for me."
   — [03:32]

2. Zach Zimmerman:
   "It's like, will you love my child? Will you please love my child? Your child sucks. Your child's ugly."
   — [03:38]

3. Chelsea Devantez:
   "It's pornhub, but literary for women because there's so many of them."
   — [08:23]

4. Zach Zimmerman:
   "Once there's not a single person driving it. Yeah, you can start to ask AI to write a scene or a chapter."
   — [16:40]

5. Chelsea Devantez:
   "She has also gently noted that Kim had forgotten to attach Freeman's novel to the email."
   — [24:15]

6. Chelsea Devantez:
   "I've had six massive things stolen... I had also done it."
   — [38:56]

7. Zach Zimmerman:
   "The ultimate win is in the court of public opinion and sales. So put your book out."
   — [53:22]

8. Chelsea Devantez:
   "If you have only ever have the one thing, you are likely headed for heartbreak."
   — [47:29]

---

Supporting Our Guests:

• Zach Zimmerman's Comedy Special:
  Title: "Surprise Me"
  Availability: YouTube and Pretty Good Friends Comedy Label
  Social Media: Instagram @zzdoublez

• Zach's Book:
  Title: "Is It Hot In Here, Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth"
  Availability: Bookstores and online retailers

---

Join the Conversation: Engage with the podcast community on Patreon and share your thoughts on the episode’s discussion about plagiarism, the Romantasy genre, and the challenges faced by creators in maintaining originality.

Transcript

[David Harbour]

Hey there, I'm David Harbour from Marvel Studios Thunderbolts. I don't mean to interrupt your favorite podcast. Well, actually maybe I do just a little bit, but I have a good reason. My new film hits theaters Friday, May 2nd and it's got everything. Action, suspense, humor, heart, and Bob. Who's Bob? Find out by getting tickets now. Okay, now back to the show or onto the next ad. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson Report.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs, viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are discussing a very juicy article submitted by Amelia in the Patreon. This one is titled Did a best selling Romantic Novelist Steal Another Writer's story Written by Katie Waldman. This story is so wild and so good. But before we dive in, do know that our Lauren Sanchez live show, which I did because the media isn't going to show you the insanity behind this woman. So I did a whole I made her memoir for her. I did a live show on Patreon and the replay is going to be up on Patreon. Lauren is only going to become a bigger figure in culture unfortunately and I just feel like the cookies should know the insanity behind her and Jeff Beso story. So it's video only on Patreon. You gotta join. You get so much other stuff on Patreon and you get to support our our small podcast business where we deliver lots and lots of tea. So I promise you will enjoy it. Now let's dive into this very juicy article. My guest today is my friend Zach Zimmerman. Zach is a stand up comedian, TV writer and author known for their queer anti capitalist comedy that delights Every and devastates. Zach's debut comedy special Surprise Me premiered worldwide on April 22nd on YouTube. So go check it out. We will link it in the show notes and it will also be available as an album via Pretty Good Friends comedy label. Hi Zach.

[David Harbour]

How are you Chelsea? Thanks for having me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay you also wrote a book that you sent me last year. It was titled Is It Hot In Here, Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth? And the COVID was fantastic. And Joyce Carol Oates blurbed your damn book.

[David Harbour]

She did the blurb. The one benefit of having gone to Princeton and taking a creative writing class finally paid off 15 years later.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, that is amazing. For anyone who doesn't know blurbing is, I'm going to say the worst part of publishing a book. What do you think?

[David Harbour]

It's up there with sort of grappling with your own insecurities and putting yourself out there, but it's a nightmare. Yeah. You reach out to anyone who you've ever known to beg them to please do a very hard thing, which is read an entire book or some of it, and then.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Or skim.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. And then say something funny, pithy and summarize it, and then let their name be on your book.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would rather write a second book than even ask people who love me to blurb it. That's how painful it is for me.

[David Harbour]

And I still remember everyone who either said yes or ignored or I remember every ask. It's sort of. It's. It's like, will you love my child? Will you please love my child?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Your child sucks. Your child's ugly. So, Zach, we gave you some choices of articles. A bunch were requested on the Patreon. We narrowed them down. You chose this one. I am living for this article. It might be my favorite we've ever done. But let's see how this conversation goes. No pressure. So I want to do just a recap for everyone so they can enjoy the episode. And then we're going to pull out the details. So again, it is titled, did a best selling Romantasy novelist steal another writer's story? The subtitle is Tracy Wolf, the author of the Crave series, is being sued for copyright infringement. Romantic reliance on standard tropes makes proving plot theft tricky. By Katie Waldman. And the overall recap is that everyone is going by their last name in this article, so I'm going to do the same. But this. This one author, last name Freeman, had written a book, had spent a lot of time on it, sent 40 to 50 brand new drafts to her agent, a crime already put the agent in jail and the book never went. And she withdrew her final submission of the book from a publishing house called Entangled, which I also thought was interesting to not just wait and hear the no. But she had withdrawn it because the agent had let her go and said, look, I don't think I'm helping you. That was clear. You need to take your book elsewhere. Let's end this. So Freeman just stops writing, puts the book away, lives her life. About 10 years later, I believe, she is in a bookstore. She sees a cover for a book. She's like, this looks fun, hot. She opens it and is like, this is my book. This is so many elements of my book. I. I think I've been plagiarized. She looks into it and finds that the author of the book has the same agent as her, the agent who had fired her. And it's published by Entangled, the place she had withdrawn her submission from. And then this leads her to sue everyone involved. And. And then the details of the article is what kind of rocked my fucking world. And so, Zach, first I want to ask you, were you aware of the Romantasy genre? Where it is romance and fantasy comes together with both tropes from both worlds kind of playing a big role in each book?

[David Harbour]

I hadn't heard the phrase before the article, but I was aware of, like, a court of. Is it a court of rose and thorns being very popular?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, it's the court of thorns and.

[David Harbour]

Roses and ripped bodice. The, like, romance bookstore opened a couple blocks for me in Brooklyn, so I knew romance was hot and selling lots of books. I didn't totally put the pieces together that this is like, people who read Harry Potter have grown up and want sex and their stories now are a little bit of sex is sort of what the article kind of says, suggested.

[Chelsea Devontez]

As if you read some of the books. A lot of sex. Yeah. I was blown away. It said print sales of romance novels more than doubled between 2020 and 2023, and that romance bookstores. There were two of them in the country, and now there are 20. So this genre found its moment specifically in Pandemic. It's always been around, but it went wild where people were like, at home, being like, well, I can't go out and be fucking. I will be reading.

[David Harbour]

Let me read about fucking. It is in that way, it feels like, oh, should this exist? Or like, if it came out of pandemic when we're all sort of alone and at home, like, should this genre be as popular or should it be as we've reemerged in the world, should we be dialing down the amount we're reading about something and go out and sort of live our own lives?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, I don't know. I don't know if there's A way to fudge a fairy slash gargoyle. And so it might have to remain in the books. But I will say I have a friend who really is into the series and she listens to the podcasts, so I'll keep it anonymous. I think she's going to love the shout out, but she did start dating a man and had him put on the tattoos of this like ferryman and act out the fantasy. And I can't imagine how great that must have to. To read 900 pages on it and then do it in real life. Must have been thrilling.

[David Harbour]

And most have that level of backstory or sort of their lives are pretty boring. So it's kind of the idea of role playing the Romantasy books is pretty high. Yeah. It makes. Yeah, yeah. Everything is backstory towards your big sexy time with. Yeah. Gargoyle boyfriend.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Okay. I want to read another part of just this genre. Publishers Weekly reported in October that five of the 10 top selling adult books in 2024 were written either by Sarah, Sarah Mass, or her fellow Romantasy icon Rebecca Yarros. The authors combined had sold more than 3.65 million copies of their novels in the first nine months of the year. A National Endowment for the Art survey found that the number of Americans who reported finishing a single book in a year declined about 6% between 2012 and 2022. But romantic, mostly female readers seem exempt from that downturn. This is what I was getting from this article, which you. You were like, maybe this should go back down. But I'm in love with. With this existing. It reminds me of pornhub. It's pornhub, but literary for women because there's so many of them. There's the standard tropes, like in porn, where it's like horrible ones, where it's like, okay, we're going to get a shot of come all over her face. That's definitely happening. You know what I mean? And like, sometimes you don't have to see the guy. Like, you just see whatever. Or if you go to a different category, like, there's certain things that like, are going to happen in each film.

[David Harbour]

Like someone gets stuck in a washer washing machine and gets fucked. But in this world.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait, I'm sorry, what category is that one?

[David Harbour]

You don't know this trope? No, tell me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm sorry. Wait. Stuck in a washing machine.

[David Harbour]

Ladies be bending over and getting stuck in the washing machine or the dryer. I guess it's usually the dryer.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, wait, so they're like, they're on the dryer. The dryer's vibrating?

[David Harbour]

No, it's sort of very. Just the man focus. They're trapped with their butt out and vagina. And then the man fucks them while they're stuck in the bed.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Their head is like, in the dryer.

[David Harbour]

I feel bad breaking this news to you, but, yes, there is some dehumanizing porn that is degrading to women out there that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

While I, you know, while I was aware that maybe it's not the most female empowering art form, this specific trend of. Of stuck in the dryer was something that didn't come across my desk.

[David Harbour]

And happy to break the news.

[Chelsea Devontez]

This is why these books have to exist. And I was thinking about it, like, if there were as many porn companies as there were Romantasy publishing houses that were making actual beautiful fiction, backstory fairy porn for women, like, maybe this wouldn't exist as much. I don't know. But it's feeling. It's definitely feeling.

[David Harbour]

I got a hole.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I was about to say. Yeah, I'm trying not to say that.

[David Harbour]

A gaping, wet, wet hole has been filled.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's filling a gaping, wet hole in the market for, like, women craving this romance that's not being given to us in other art forms. That's kind of what I was taking from it because there's just so many of them and there's so many certain tropes that are followed every single time, or it no longer fits into the genre of romance or Romantasy. Yes, this is what brought me to pornhub. Entangled, which is craves publisher, gives visitors to its website the option to browse its selection by tropes such as enemies to lovers and marriage of convenience, which are categories I'd much rather click on than washing machine dryer, cheerleader, like, whatever, you know. So this is what happened, though. Freeman sues and is like, you have stolen my book. And the litigation, which is ongoing, has cost Freeman several hundred thousand dollars and the defendants more than a million dollars. And Freeman had to sell her home in order to pull off this lawsuit. And I'm going to read a little bit of this. Freeman's lawsuit rests on hundreds of similarities compiled by Freeman and her lawyers between her own manuscripts and Notes to the Crave series. Taken one by one. Few examples seem to rise to the level of infringement. The Alaskan setting, which Freeman saw as her intellectual property, is surprisingly common. They estimate 95% of vampire novels take place in Alaska, New Orleans or Las Vegas. That one. But Vegas is what took, you know, vampires In Vegas, it just seems like a trashy kind of vampire.

[David Harbour]

Vampires in NOLA makes sense. Sort of the Anne Rice of it all. But Vegas, yeah. Why vampires be in Vegas?

[Chelsea Devontez]

That just seems like regular people on cocaine, playing blackjack, taking one weird drug and biting. Now, gargoyles. I'm continuing to read some of this. Gargoyles have joined the menagerie of trendy paranormals. Small plane pilots, which was also in her original book, our standard issue for romance, a genre that loves a man in uniform. And it goes without saying that trysts under the aurora borealis are common. So basically, she had written this book. It takes place in Alaska. Like, her grandpa was like a small plane, like puddle jumper pilots. And she had this whole series about gargoyles. And in crave series, it has all those same elements, but instead of a gargoyle, it's a vampire. But then later a gargoyle exists. And so she really thought, like, this has been stolen. This is mine. But none of those elements are suable. So at this point in the article, what was your take on, like, has she been stolen from? Is this just collective thought in this genre that has a lot of cornerstones that are repeated, like, what were you thinking?

[David Harbour]

There was one line that stuck out to me when the lawyer initially said, like, the agent had no recollection of this novel that was submitted to her. And I'm like, you real. You read like 40 or 50 versions of this and you don't remember it at all. So that was a little sus to me. I mean, the legal question is, like, not as interesting to me because we'll never have closure on it. I don't think. Like, I'm just thinking of. Once I tweeted something like it was about someone interviewing someone for a job. And they're like, can you explain this gap in my resume? And I was like, it was then that Jesus carried me. I tweeted that. But then someone commented, like, with their version of that, which they had put out like, six months prior. And I was like, I did think of it on my own, but it is sort of looking. Whenever someone has the same joke as me, I'm like, oh, it's hack now. Like, it's become hack, and I'll just go write another joke. Obviously, a book is a bigger creative endeavor, and we want to believe that authors are geniuses with singular visions, and they're like, putting their soul on the page. But what's interesting here is it's sort of like a factory is pumping these out, and there's Multiple people in the Google Doc, like making it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes, good point. And actually, let me put some quick clarity here for everyone listening. According to the lawsuit, the entangled publisher, the woman who was publishing the book, Liz Pelletier, she created the basic storyline for the Crave book series. Then she selected Tracy Wolf to come on and execute her idea. And then it was a collaborative project between the two of them with Liz Pelletier kind of editing and co writing and making the overarching story for Wolf. And then even though the agent was a part of it, the agent's attorney was like, no, no, no. The agent like doesn't even recall having creative input on it, which will be proven to not be true in other documents. Okay, please continue.

[David Harbour]

To me, it gets at like, what should a book look like? Or who should be writing a book? A single person, a committee. And I don't know, they're just going to waste a lot of money and the lawyers are going to make a lot of money here. But maybe something will come out of it where we check ourselves. Like maybe your editor and publisher shouldn't be in the Google Doc with you racing to a deadline. But I'm jumping ahead a little bit.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Well, that's okay. No, let's discuss that part of it. I want to scroll down. So that part really got me as well, that basically there's such a hunger and enthusiasm for these books and the algorithms, like Amazon, they're. They're set up to be like more and more and more. And that when you discover a book, you want this big back catalog of all these other books from this person you can read. And Tracy Wolf was known as like one of the fastest and best writers. And I'm going to read. So Crave is the book that she believes stole. Freeman believes stole. Stole her original book, which is Blue Moon Rising. Let me read this. The process of putting out Crave was chaotic. Wolf wrote a rough draft in two months from May to June of 2019. So let's just stop. Entire book, two months. But Pelletier, who is the publisher of Entangled, didn't start editing in earnest until December. Honestly. Fucking rude. So she turns it in in June. You didn't even open the dock till December. That's all right. Several weeks before the book was scheduled to go to press. So she turns it in, the publisher sits on it for six months, and then like three weeks before it goes up, she's like, let me edit this. My editor had a couple other projects that she was working on, and then when she came back she was like, this is good, but this needs to change, this needs to change, this needs to change. The pair of them revised the manuscript, adding about 4:50,000 words in a week and a half. And again, this is the entangled woman who is the publisher. She came up with the idea. She assigned it to Tracy Wolf. They are now in a shared Google document. And then what's crazier is that Tracy Wolf's agent, Kim, was also Freeman's agent, has a text message in the lawsuit that they discovered. And the agent's text message says this, Tracy and I are team speed writing new scenes. And quote, I've stopped copy editing because I helped write all of this. And this is the agent. And this is where the whole article changed for me. Because like you said, if your editor is in the Google Doc writing with you now, you are co writers. That's not an editor's job or purview. When your agent gets in the dock, something's fucking way wrong. That's where I was like, I just want to like, sue her. I want to sue all of them for thinking that should happen. What did you think of that part of it when the agent was like, I'm co writing this now.

[David Harbour]

Agents should want to make books happen, but they've kind of surrendered the writing to the, to their authors. That's just so hands on. And to what end? Like, I would be insulted as the author if my agent was like, in a Google Doc with me. Yeah, give me notes. And they read, they read so much. And many of them are also great writers. So it's sort of the artistic integrity then gets so murky and they acted like it was nothing.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And so when that agent was writing this one specifically, clearly began taking everything from her previous client's book that was still stuck in her head and putting it in the document. And now this other writer is getting sued for plagiarism. That was my ultimate conclusion where I was like, oh, this agent, not a trained writer, was like, how do I fill stuff I know from memory from this other book that never went, you know, whether purposeful or not, conscious or not, began filling the book with all these other details of a draft she had read 50 times. That's what I took from it. But what did you take from it?

[David Harbour]

It did make me think about, like, how books are or should be written and thinking about TV writing too, like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, which is collaborative, right? Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Should there be a. Could there be collaboratively written books? And we lean into that and we have a team of X number of writers. Working together to make something who are all trained writers and what would that look like? Or why? Why? Because why does prose feel like it has to be written by a single voice? I try, I tried to get a little like, oh, maybe I'm just being closed minded and thinking like, oh, the individual author has to be the genius.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I, I know, I agree with you. It. I think like, and I do, and I do know of some publishing houses that are running specifically like romance and Romantasy a little bit more like TV writing, which I'm, you know, what I'm fine with. But like you said, then they're all credited. This was written by Tracy Wolf. Kim. Her last name is Kim. I think it's Emily Kim or something, you know, and, and the publisher. Or like, I feel the same way about celebrity memoirs where I don't want you to pretend you didn't have a ghostwriter. I want them to have co author credit. Like, because I think more celebrities should have more ghostwriters because it's like you should. I just think it's so crazy that it would be like, you know what, even though you've been an actor your whole life, you can learn to write a book. Like, you can't, like, it's really hard and like employ someone and that to help tell your story. And that's beautiful. So I'm very pro. Wrong. Ghostwriter. No, I'm very pro co author. But like, why are people like Tinks over here pretending they wrote a fucking novel when it was a ghostwriter? Do you know Tinks, by the way?

[David Harbour]

No. I was going to ask what's a Tink? She's like, oh, it's a person.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's a person. Yeah. It's basically this huge influencer who is like, now I've written a novel and it's like, you know, even from the jump, you're like, there's no way. And then this is. You just did it. And then the novel comes out and it's like a lesbian beach story written by an actual queer person. But like her name is on the book and she's selling it. Being like, I wrote this and it's like it's, it's for sales. Right? It's hard to sell books. And so they're pretending influencers. There's. This is happening a lot, if you've noticed. Like a reality star is like, I wrote a novel like, oh my God, Snooki. I went to go read Snooki's memoir, unfortunately for this podcast, and I accidentally picked up the fictional book that she. She, quote, wrote.

[David Harbour]

Wow.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. It was a rough. And it was on. I was on a plane. I was literally in prison with a book that was a fictional book. Ghost written, said to be written by Snooki. Anyways, obviously she didn't write it. So this is where I'm coming to you being like, I just want the writers to have credit and let's accept this process. But like, this specifically of, like, ghostwriting, helping this author put it out is how you end up in plagiarizing situations. Whereas one. One person in the Google Doc is panicking.

[David Harbour]

As the author, I would be terrified of the liability you're now taking on because your name is connected to every word on that page. If the agents putting words in there, they. Yeah. You can't trust them to not be accidentally copying, pasting something. Like, you have to stand by everything that's in that book, and you're legally liable, it sounds like, for everything that's in that book.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Yeah. And so this is the next paragraph that I was screaming. So Kim is the agent. Kim didn't always show this level of enthusiasm for Freeman, her previous client. On October 10, 2013, Kim pitched Blue Moon Rising to Liz Pelletier. Again, Liz is the woman at Entangled who's going to come up with the crave series that Freeman says stole her book. And the book was sent to her by the agent Kim. And this is the email that she wrote, quote, if you are looking for something unique in young adult paranormal romance, this is something I think would be a perfect fit for you. Pelletier forwarded the pitch without reading it. She claims to Stacy Abrams, not the politician, just another lady.

[David Harbour]

Also a writer and novelist. Romantic, I think, or romance novel.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Sends it to Stacey Abrams, who requested the full manuscript on October 18th. Kim replied on October 23rd. Hi, Stacy. She wrote, sorry for the delay. Here you go. And aren't you happy about Tracy? I am. Tracy Wolf is the other author who. Who they are saying stole Freeman's manuscript. Stacey Abrams agreed that she was happy about Tracy, whose new Entangled book was doing well. She also gently noted that Kim had forgotten to attach Freeman's novel to the email. So here's this agent being like, yeah, you know, Freeman wrote a book if you want it. They're like, yeah, I do, and forgets to send it. Anyways, what about my better client, Tracy? And when I read this, I said, I hope she wins her case against you just for crimes of being a bad agent.

[David Harbour]

It was such a. Yeah, that was heartbreaking that someone's not even pitching hard for you. You want to believe those emails are like, hey, I've got the most amazing book. It spoke to me. I cried instead of like, hey, here's a book. Oh, by, oh, sorry, I forgot to even send it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Anyways, let's talk about my other client. I. I mean, Zach, you know, that's. That has to have been done to us by reps we've had.

[David Harbour]

It's heartbreaking. I'm sure you wanna believe it. I do love when my name is the subject line, though. I will say that that's a fun thing in our industry. Like when someone, when you see an email where the whole subject was just your name, you're being discussed in some or your project or whatever. That's a side note, I guess.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I don't know how this happened, but when my memoir was sent out on submission, a different editor from a different publishing house, so I didn't go with was writing back about my submission and that got forwarded to me, but then somehow attached in the chain was their negative feedback about a different person's book. Ooh, a famous person's.

[David Harbour]

Ooh, tea. Valuable tea.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But like, I had half a second of being like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm reading this. And my second second was, oh, well, then this has happened to me. Well, then, like, you know what I mean? Like, if this is happening, someone else has read feedback about my shit. That's the part of me that was like, she's not suing for being a bad agent. But a part of me was like.

[David Harbour]

Get her, get her. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll come right back into the episode. Did you know you can give yourself an eyelash curl just by using the tips of your fingers and pressing your eyelashes upward? This is especially helpful if you have finicky eyelash. And my favorite mascara of all time is Thrive Cosmetics Liquid Lash Extensions mascara. It has five different shades. It doesn't have clumping, smudging, or flaking. And it comes off really softly and gently, which is really nice. It looks like lash extensions. Thrive cosmetics makes certified 100% vegan and cruelty free products. And Thrive Cosmetics donates to causes with every purchase, including domestic violence, which is a very important cause to me. Go get your Liquid Lash Extension mascara and discover your new trusty favorite from Thrive Cosmetics, luxury beauty that gives back. Right now, you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com glamorous. That's Thrive Cosmetics C A U S E M E t I c s.com glamorous for 20% off your first order, McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce.

[David Harbour]

Now available with a Minecraft movie meal and participating McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required int first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] okay, let's dive back into the episode. I mean, imagine how heartbreaking it was for her to in court about plagiarism, see that her own agent didn't even fight for her book when she was.

[David Harbour]

Sending it out and to have asked for all these revisions. And there was that one line where the agent said something like, I think you need to make sure this is your best work and we need to move on or something.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I kind of think like Tracy Wolf, who knows? But like, given that she's written so many other books that don't have plagiarism claims on her, I feel like likely this is like a shared Google Doc gone wrong and that the agent should sort of be at the crux of this lawsuit. Okay, so I want to ask you. So you talked about that Twitter joke, which that has also happened to me before we like you write some jokes and before Twitter went to hell, I would always search for my joke in the search bar before I put it out to make sure this joke had never been said. But if enough words are different, you're not gonna find it. I also feel like there's this thing happening where it's like people verbatim steal things and other people are like, who cares? Everything's copied now. And like the Internet has become this place where like plagiarism is like a free for all and somehow like you're supposed to just like let it go. And I feel like we have no shared understanding of what is stealing material right now.

[David Harbour]

Oh, totally. It's wild wild West. And I'm remembering like the Fuck Jerry Movement. Or there was like an account. There's these aggregator accounts that just copy paste, right? And it's like, but the Internet feels like the Wild West. It's like, you shouldn't, but maybe you can. A lot of what I see on TikTok too, are people will just take a tweet and then make that the text, and then they're hot faces behind it, and so they're just using. People who aren't having original thoughts are just hopping on memes. But it's kind of plagiarism vibes, huge.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I would say plagiarism is fully accepted on our social media platforms. So that, to me, is sort of like, very tied with this. However, in book form, in a larger piece of art, it obviously matters more. Have you ever had an artistic project either coming out or you're working on or whatever, that you saw an exact copy of it, whether purposeful or not? Has this ever. Has something ever happened to you where it's like, wait a minute, I wrote this. What is it doing over here?

[David Harbour]

Nothing. Where I felt like I had an actual claim. I more just cringe that someone beat me to it. Like, in the special, I had some jokes about Uber eats and, like, overeating and ordering too much. And I saw Bergatzy start to do an SNL monologue, and I'm like, oh, God, he's. He's touching on it too. I think they're ultimately different enough, and there's a strong enough point of view that's different. That, to me, is what it ultimately gets back to. It's like, was your take on it so specific to you that it can't be stolen from someone else? Or part of why it's funny is because it's coming from your voice. I remember in college, whenever you'd be writing an essay and then you find an article that made the same argument, and you're like, fuck. But then you just learn to, like, fold it in somehow. You're like, oh, now I have to make my version even more new. What's tricky with standup is so many themes and topics are so well trod. You're in your 20s, you're going to talk about dating. You're in your 30s, you're going to talk about hating your spouse. Like, they're so well trod that finding a new thing to say about them can be hard. And that's, I think, why people scramble to pop culture news. Or, like, the latest thing of the day. How do we make the newest joke and things become Hack in hours, which is so scary when you're chasing, like, virality in that way.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And then when it comes to, like, romantasy specifically. So this actually, yeah, our Danielle Steele episode will have come out on the podcast a few days before this episode. But I've been learning about how there's, like, certain things that happen in romance, and if they don't happen, it's not a romance book. So, like, if there's not a happy ending, not a romance book, really.

[David Harbour]

Oh, it's like Shakespeare. Comedy ends in a marriage, Tragedy ends in a funeral. It has to end happily.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And there's like, several tent poles of, like, this happens or it's not the genre. So I think specifically what's tough about this case and this book genre is that there are so many things that are specifically being copied on purpose for the genre. People want to read about the meet cute. They want to have the kiss moment, they want to have the happy ending. Right. And so then how do you. You sue for your own ideas. All her stories about growing up in Alaska that are specific to her, that someone may be lifted and put into this book when Alaska is one of the number one main locations, apparently, of paranormal fantasy and that, like, it is a genre that is, like, unsuable because so many of the ideas are shared the same way with music, where it's like, oh, all songs are the same four chords. Where, like, what you said, it is your specific take on it, your specific prose, your specific point of view. Because the notes we are playing are all the same.

[David Harbour]

It sort of feels like it's not the place to put your really personal story in because you're gonna be so intense.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's heartbreaking, right? Yeah.

[David Harbour]

Oh, you actually need to just play the full fiction game. Don't bring your life to this piece because there's all these tent poles. You have to.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But then how would you write. Do you know what I mean? How would you write if you couldn't bring parts of yourself to the book?

[David Harbour]

What is funny, too, about this? The books, the author of the piece says they're, like, so different. Like, tonally, they're just different attitudes about these specifics, which was interesting, basically.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, one book is, like, quiet and subdued and haunting and eerie, and the other book is, like, loud and juicy and brash and whatever. But she said, but you cannot shake the feeling that you have read the same book in different forms. And there's a lot of other similar details. Like, quote, the book followed a similar plotline to her own, and each a heroine from San Diego must go live with her only living family in Alaska after an accident killed several family members. Seven of the book's characters share the same names, including Bloodletter, Maurice and Colin with two Ls, according to the lawsuit. That is all in there. However, by the end of it, none of them might hold up legally. Like, she might not be able to sue on those factors, but it wouldn't change the fact that if you read the books back to back, you would be like, clearly this is shared, copied or stolen content. I want to read this. In 2018, the author Addison Cain filed a takedown notice against the author, Zoe Ellis, accusing her of ripping off Kane's society of aggressive Alphas and submissive omegas. Ellis sued Kane and her then publisher, Blushing Books, arguing that she and Kane were both practicing the sub genre of wolf kink erotica, which is based on open source fan fiction. Blushing Books settled out of court. A second suit Ellis filed against Kane was dismissed. And so if it's based on open source source erotica fan fiction, it's like, yeah, it just feels like it's so hard to prove, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And that in this genre that is asking for more and more books don't. When I was reading this, I just thought like, oh, there are authors who are going to be using so much AI to keep up with this and they're going to get caught. Or the genre will get diluted. Or the AI which is built on stealing people's work will put stolen work into your work. Yeah. What did you think?

[David Harbour]

I'm glad AI came is coming up because once a lot of different people in a Google Doc started to take shape, I was like, once there's not a single person driving it. Yeah, you can start to ask AI to write a scene or a chapter. I am remembering a thought I had whenever I worry that someone else has already done a thing and I don't get to do my version of it. A thought I had was like, if no one wrote a love song because there was a love song, there'd only be one love song like you deserve to. People get to do their version of a thing just because another artist has already done it doesn't mean you can't write this. But maybe disclose. I don't know. More disclosure or more. What I'm shocked is some of this legal fees that this woman hasn't just put this book out on her own, like can.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So that's what I want to. That's the last part of this I really want to talk to you about in a large. No, no. I'm excited you brought this up. So, first off, I want to call out that Crave. The COVID of it looks exactly like the Twilight cover. So black with one stark little icon in the middle. And that the publisher was like, hey, all the Twilight fans have grown up. I think they're ready to do it again. Like, do another vampire book. And so then Crave is already kind of building off of Twilight. The COVID is clearly copied from Twilight, you know what I mean, from the Twilight series. The covers are very similar. So, like, original thought isn't really being valued from this specific publisher. But then going over to Freeman, who wrote Blue Moon Rising, she never wrote again. She never wrote again. She has not put this book out. She sold her house to sue these people. And her last sentence in the article is, she's fighting in part because she no longer saw herself as unique. If this can happen to me, it could happen to somebody else. And I have a really tough take on this, which I feel really bad about. So I want to talk to you about it, which is, like, kind of what you said. Like, why didn't you just put the book out? Why are you selling your home? Like, is this fight worth selling your home to sue these people? And what did you end up thinking about her choice to do that instead of putting that time into making other art?

[David Harbour]

She. I forget which job she had, but she had a lucrative career or sort of. To even go fight a fight, a publisher, you have to have so much money, I think.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, well, she didn't have enough of a career to not sell her home.

[David Harbour]

Right, right, right.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, okay, let me give you my take. I've had six massive things stolen. I don't want to say stolen, because I don't know, it could have been groupthink. I think in a few cases, it definitely was groupthink, but it didn't change the fact that I had also done it. And now we're, like, in the arena together and that. And how do you get from it? Actually, let me give you my, like, craziest example, which is actually a very happy story, which is that the very first script I ever wrote in 2012 was called the Butterflies with a Z, about a group of overly sexualized tween pop stars who reunite when they're 40 to take back the industry, which is also the premise of girls 5. Eva and I had really shitty reps who were like, well, the movie pop star exists, so, like, this show can't Happen which insane nothing. They're just so dissimilar. It was just a very bad rep. Then I, like, rewrote it as a film. Then I rewrote it as my sample. It got me so many jobs. I mean, the. My pilot sample has been around for so long that when Girls5 ever was announced, I got 10 emails from people congratulating me. But my sample had been what gotten me. It had been around town for years. Right now, in this case, this was a, I think a great premise and should have come up in Hollywood and been made into a show. It was absolutely separate thought in separate realms, wasn't stolen from me in any way. This was like an original idea. Nothing was similar about our concepts beyond the premise. We didn't share a title. We didn't share, you know, characters. And so then this showrunner. This is the happy ending. She's so incredible. She's so funny. She's so smart. She's been on this podcast. She was passed my sample from someone else and then she hired me to write on the show because she could see how much I loved this. This content and these themes and characters like this. And so it was actually a very happy ending. It's why I got to write on Girls5Eva, which is just one of the best shows, one of my favorite credits. And the shows I had written was totally different. And I love that I got to write on Girls Forever. I'm so honored I got to write on it. But, you know, when it was first announced, before I knew I was going to get to be a part of it, I cried. I cried like something of mine had been murdered. It was the hardest I've ever grieved a project. So just to say, like, what if? And this is why I think I have a shitty take. Because if every time that happened to me, purpose or accident or just we're all artists and group mind exists, I had stopped down to sue. I wouldn't get to be an artist.

[David Harbour]

That.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So my time, my energy, my money would have all gone there. And instead I've had to get back up and start something over. And like, it's so painful. It's so much creative energy. It's like you. You feel a betrayal. And like, definitely the ones where I felt like maybe there was something sus going on, I. It created big grudges in me and I had to learn very painfully that you just have to go again and write something different and pivot and try again. I've had to do that a lot. And I kind of have accepted it as, like, it's just another horrible part of the business. But I think that's why I'm looking at her going, like, why are you suing? This might legally. My opinion is that her agent really her and accidentally or purposefully stole her book when she was in a document, panic writing when she shouldn't have been. But I don't know that justice is gonna come through the court system.

[David Harbour]

No, it. It. I like the idea of sort of picking yourself back up and going out there, choosing where to put your limited creative energy. I do wonder if you'd feel. I wonder, when she decided to sue, was it just noticing the similarity? Like, if you're. If we take your instance and apply it to this one, you don't hear about Girls Forever. You're just watching it one night and you're like, wait, like, I have a sample that was similar to this. And then you go digging and you find a receipt paper trail that, like, shows your script being sent to someone, and that person sends it to, I don't know, the showrunner or something.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Harbour]

Do you then start to feel more morally righteous to I gonna win, but let things go? I've learned, like, it's very different situation, but there have been, like, customer service scenarios where I'm getting the short end of the stick and I, like, devote so much energy to getting, like, $10 back from someone. And I've learned, like, actually it's not worth 20 hours of my work, even though I'm right. It's not worth, like, yelling at this backpack company to get this coupon or whatever.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So a coupon or $10 back matters. But your creative heart and soul, when you have put years and years and hours of your life and your personhood into a creative thing, and it feels like someone took it. I think. I think Freeman is suing them because she never became a writer. This broke her heart so much. She never wrote again, and they stole a creative dream from her. That's why I think she's suing.

[David Harbour]

That's beautiful. Or makes it more empathetic. I'm also realizing now Freeman is an attorney. That was like, wait, what? That was her main job. It's like the first line. It's Lynne Freeman. She's a.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Wait a minute.

[David Harbour]

She's family law, though. But she, like, she knows that world. It hits to your point that she's never become a writer. Like, I'm a lawyer. I tried to be a writer. It didn't work out. Someone stole my book. What skills do I have? To go like, fight for me now maybe. Or yeah. Or she saw it as a payday too. Maybe she thinks this booming industry, she can make a bunch of money from this if she wins. But it didn't feel like that.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It didn't feel like that. Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point. Well, I mean, I guess to take it back to just the larger system of like when you get copied. I think think we used to have a lot more respect or not respect, but like, like I remember when someone be like, I tweeted this and SNL did it that night and we'd all be up in arms like, how dare you? And now that thing hap. Something like that happens 20 times a day and nobody gives a. Or like someone could make a tick tock with an original joke and someone copies it, remixes it, whatever, and they're like, yay, now it's your joke. Like, we've, we've totally accepted people copying other people as like no big deal. And I think especially in the past handful of years, it's almost become like, oh, well, you're petty for caring. And, and I know some historical cases, it's really always with women where they're like, don't be rude, don't be a mean girl. And so then it's like, well, what do you have in your control to. To do about it? And it's so hard to keep a creative spirit in a creative field that to also lose a case like, like, it's just, how do you keep going and creating art?

[David Harbour]

You don't. You don't. You give up. You sue you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I'm glad she became a lawyer. That's a nice career.

[David Harbour]

Imagine what that's like.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And also like, I want to very clearly state that groupthink, parallel thinking exists. There are things that I thought I was the first person to think of and turns out I wasn't. And you know, there's things that happen at the exact same time. That's kind of how artistic consciousness works as we all evolve and pick up the same things in culture. And so like I'm like, I just, I'm so beyond grateful I got to write on girls 5eva. And I think it's such a cool story in that I never would have gotten this dream job if I hadn't written my own thing, you know, 10 years prior. I think it was 10 years. I don't know the math. 2012. Oh my gosh. Anyways, however, if I hadn't written that many years ago, I wouldn't have gotten one of my dream jobs. So I feel like it's a very beautiful story, but there are very rotten stories that happen for other people. And like, what do you do when it doesn't have a nice ending?

[David Harbour]

And when someone thought this was like their big break, like Freeman probably wanted to be, go full time. And this was the one thing she'd put all of her eggs into.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I know. And that's where I think it would lead me to artist advice, which is that, like, you have to be able to create more than one thing or you'll never survive emotionally and you'll never survive financially. And if you only ever have the one thing, you are likely headed for heartbreak. Is that sad?

[David Harbour]

No. I think the best advice I got from someone forever ago is just be prolific. Just make a new thing, Write the new joke.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Just be prolific.

[David Harbour]

It was so simple. But don't. Maybe the other version of that is don't be precious with any one idea. Like, don't. Yeah, books are harder. Cause they are. They feel so much heavier and they take years versus like a tweet or like a sketch or even a pilot script. Like you can put your heart into it, but just. It feels not as heavy as like my 300 page novel.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Which I think brings us to closing up this discussion, which is. And Tracy Wolf didn't take years. She was pushed to write this in two months. And I guess it's sort of built into this specific genre that you have to go very fast. Therefore, plagiarism and stealing perhaps might be more common. Like, apparently there's a lot of authors in this genre who are already accused of like, AI and plagiarism and things like that.

[David Harbour]

It makes me think of like million little pieces or people that have gone to task for altering the story of their life a little bit, and we condemn them so harshly, like, how dare you mislead us? But here it feels like there's not condemnation, like, how dare you steal? Cause it's sort of like no one's presenting it as true. We're all playing in this fictional world. Don't be a party pooper. Just like, write another book. I'm sure Freeman could, with this press, go write it on.

[Chelsea Devontez]

If she could write a book about this. This. I would read the book about this journey of like, being stolen from and suing and your agent and like, and to go back to James Frey. So James Frey initially pitched that book or wrote that book as fiction, and they said no, no one would buy it as fiction. Why don't you say, it's a memoir. And he went, okay. Had some elements of truth, and then he just did it. And it's funny because had it been labeled something else, you could still appreciate the writing. Okay, it is time for the test that we do. And listen, I've been coming up with a name for this test. I've had people vote. You're going to weigh in. We're either going to call this the pros in cons test, the Click lit quiz, or the Discourse. Now I know what the cookies voted on. Which name do you like best for this article test I'm about to take you through?

[David Harbour]

I mean, click lit caught my ear.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right?

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Okay. All right. Welcome to the Click lit quiz. Three questions. We're gonna answer all three together. First question, was the article well written?

[David Harbour]

The New Yorker piece? Mm, yeah. It had jokes. Is this a yes or no question?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. I mean. And you can. You can expound.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, I thought it was well written. Took me on the journey. There's a lot of characters that was a little hard to track, but I feel like it did a good job and had some funny lines. Like, I think I got a dig in there about someone in the. Wondering how court. What court had to do with love. And I was like, well, we know. Yeah, that joke worked.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I thought it was so well written because in this genre, a lot of the lead protagonist, women, it's about feeling special and feeling chosen. And she maps that really beautifully with the author, and she feels special. And because she doesn't feel special anymore, she's like, I need to sue, because this could happen to anyone. I thought it was so well written. Okay, second question. Did reading this article make you want to scream about it with anyone?

[David Harbour]

Ooh, maybe not scream. I was like, this is interesting. I need to know more. I think I'm not immersed enough in the world to be upset on anyone's behalf in it. I'm sort of empathetic, but generally, anger is not a go to emotion of mine, so don't let that be a judgment of the piece.

[Chelsea Devontez]

What a beautiful life for you. What is that like?

[David Harbour]

Oh, sadness. Mostly sadness. I default to empathetic weeping.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's really beautiful. My life is 90% anger.

[David Harbour]

I'm glad we're here. Not in love. I'm glad we're not in love, but.

[Chelsea Devontez]

We could be a real enemies to lovers situation here. Yeah, I could. I could scream for nine more hours about this. I need to talk about, like, the genre exploding, this incredible book culture, this idea that books are dying and yet, in the romance space, on average, one book is read a week by millions of people. Like, the idea that, like, because other markets that exist don't give women what they need, we have found our space in books. Like, yeah, I'm just obsessed with. And then also, like, being copied. And. Are you stolen from. Is it group think? Like, obviously, having lived through that. And it's a. It's a. It's a really painful process. Yeah. I could scream about this for hours. Okay, final question. Did reading this article deepen your thinking on the topic?

[David Harbour]

Oh, yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Did it elevate the discourse?

[David Harbour]

Oh, I think so. For sure. Since I didn't know anything about romantasy as a genre, it was a sexy way into it. That there's, like, a scandal in the community is a great way. And then, yeah, as someone who is a creative and wants to make things. Just thinking about who owns what and genres of jokes or genres of material, it's very sexy. And, I mean, I need to read one of these books. I need to. I'm a little worried I'm gonna get sucked in. That's. The real fear is, like, suddenly, what a beautiful fear. Suddenly my whole life. Suddenly I'm. You know, it's midnight, and I'm there for Crave 4 coming out. And I've spent $10,000.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's called Court.

[David Harbour]

I've spent 10,000 on my costume.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Ah, I don't know. I think this is a beautiful life for you. Don't be afraid. Yeah, this absolutely deepens my thinking. But I will say I know a lot of the cookies in the Patreon are romance and romantasy readers, and if y'all do not get in those comments and continue this conversation, I'll be devastated, because I. Yeah, it's really deep into my thinking. But my conclusion with this is that she shouldn't have sued. She should have put it into her own artistic work, but that she has every right to sue, because it does sound like this was egregiously stolen from her, and that's heinous, and I wish there was more punishment for that, but I don't know if there is.

[David Harbour]

Right. The ultimate win is in the court of public opinion and sales. So put your book out. I think people would love to read it. And then suddenly you're a bestselling author, too, because people are comparing the two to each other.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I really thought you were about to say that this was gonna be handled in the court of thorns and roses. Zach, tell everyone where they can, like, find and watch your Special. It just came out. You are so funny. You're so delightful. You make a lot of. I don't know if it came up enough here, but you have like this great Southern upbringing and this reverence, but also wit about the southern women in your life. And so I want everyone to go and support your work and laugh a lot.

[David Harbour]

Oh, that's so kind. Yeah. My mother features heavily in the special, which you can stream on YouTube for free. Just search Zach Zimmerman. It's called Surprise Me. It's about looking for a definition of love that sort of makes sense of my mother's quote, unquote love for me. And I'm on Instagram, Zzdoublez. Yeah, I keep putting out, you know, stand up and books and hoping, you.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Know, you are huge on social. So go get Zach a follow.

[David Harbour]

Oh, stop. And a DM. My DMs are full of smut. Just like auto.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Are they really?

[David Harbour]

It's like bot written smut. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, so you want some original stuff in those DMs?

[David Harbour]

I need some original smut in the DMs, please.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Great. And get his book. It's titled Is It Hot in Here Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth. And Joyce Carol Oates fucking loved that shit. And you can get that book anywhere books are sold.

[David Harbour]

I hope she read it. She was the last blurb. I had to send a lot of follow up emails and she came through with some gold.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I. I hope she read it is the most perfect way to describe getting a blurb. But also, do you. Or you just happy to get the blurb?

[David Harbour]

Yeah, I just want your name please.

[Chelsea Devontez]

To sell books, which is hard. Which wraps up this episode. Selling books is hard. And this is. This is part of it. Zach, thank you so much for coming on. You were at an album absolute delights.

[David Harbour]

Thank you, Chelsea, for having me.

[Chelsea Devontez]

A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro fm where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code Trash. That's right, Trash. T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of one at Libro fm. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.