Viral Article Book Club: When Parenthood Changes Friendships

Summary

Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast
Episode: Viral Article Book Club: When Parenthood Changes Friendships
Host: Chelsea Devantez
Guest: Nora McInerney
Release Date: March 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Glamorous Trash: A Celebrity Memoir Podcast, host Chelsea Devantez teams up with returning guest Nora McInerney to delve into a viral article from The Cut titled "My friends abandoned me when they had Kids" by Emily Gould. Transitioning from celebrity memoirs to contemporary social dilemmas, Chelsea and Nora explore the intricate dynamics of friendships altered by parenthood, offering personal insights and critical analysis of the advice provided.

Recap of the Viral Article

Chelsea introduces the episode by summarizing the article addressed to Emily Gould. The letter, penned by an anonymous 31-year-old woman, expresses feelings of isolation and abandonment as her friends transition into marriage and motherhood. She laments being the "last single girl on earth," feeling sidelined at social gatherings, and yearning to preserve her friendships despite the evolving life stages.

Notable Quote:
"The stakes have ratcheted up significantly this year. I'm 31, so my friends have been settling down, getting married and buying houses for years at this point."
— Anonymous Letter Writer [02:16]

Discussion of Emily Gould's Advice

Emily Gould's response offers pragmatic yet controversial advice:

1. Be the Supportive Friend: Drop by with beverages and snacks, engage in brief pleasant conversation, and then give space.
2. Prioritize Friendships: Select one or two key friendships to focus on, allowing others to fade naturally.
3. Integrate into Their Lives: Bring thoughtful gifts for the children, join family activities, and adapt to the new normal.
4. Avoid Solely Single Rooms: Surround yourself with other single individuals to foster supportive relationships.

Chelsea and Nora dissect these recommendations, debating their effectiveness and sensitivity.

Notable Quotes:
_"This won't last forever. It'll be about five years, by which time you may have embarked on a new stage of life on your own."
— Emily Gould [04:51]

"The advice is like, here's how you be a good friend when you've had kids into your life and your brain feels different."
— Chelsea Devantez [11:15]

Personal Experiences of Chelsea and Nora

Chelsea shares her personal struggles with maintaining friendships as her friends enter different life stages. She recounts painful moments where significant life events, like childbirth, created rifts in her relationships, emphasizing the emotional toll of such transitions.

Nora relates by discussing her own experiences with singleness and motherhood. She highlights the societal pressures women face and the internal conflicts arising from changing personal identities.

Notable Quote:
_"I don't think of motherhood as a hierarchy within, you know, womanhood or personhood. It's a choice. It's not a better choice than any other."
— Nora McInerney [16:23]

Evaluation of the Article ('Article Test')

Chelsea introduces the "Article Test," a segment where they evaluate the effectiveness and impact of the article through targeted questions. They assess whether the article was well-written, evoked strong emotions, and contributed meaningfully to the discourse on friendships and parenthood.

Notable Quotes:
"For me, yes, I was enraged. This is a yes for me. I said, how dare you call these friends good friends to this woman?"
— **Chelsea Devantez [28:47]

"It's hard to elevate the discourse when the discourse is so angry."
— **Nora McInerney [29:27]

Handling Social Situations and Friendships

The conversation shifts to practical strategies for navigating social gatherings as a single individual amidst partnered friends. Chelsea and Nora discuss boundaries, communication strategies, and the importance of mutual understanding in sustaining friendships despite divergent life choices.

They emphasize the necessity of direct conversations to express feelings and needs, fostering an environment where both parties can feel acknowledged and valued.

Notable Quotes:
_"Have a direct conversation with the people that you want to stay connected with. Where you say, this is how I feel. Can you tell me how you feel?"
— Nora McInerney [15:58]

"If you're in a room that makes you feel bad, don't be in it."
— **Chelsea Devantez [22:37]

Conclusion and Takeaways

Chelsea and Nora wrap up the episode by reiterating the complexities of maintaining friendships through life transitions. They advocate for empathy, open communication, and the recognition that friendships evolve. The host underscores the importance of valuing friendships irrespective of differing life choices, encouraging listeners to seek connections that honor their individual experiences.

Notable Quotes:
"I love you, and I think you're doing a great job. And I don't think that anyone, who has kids or is married is, like, any better than you or any more, like, worthy."
— **Nora McInerney [32:26]

_"It's a phase of your life that you should be enjoying to the fullest, especially if you have a plan to have kids later on."
— Emily Gould [07:00]

Final Thoughts

This episode of Glamorous Trash offers a heartfelt exploration of how parenthood can reshape friendships. Through candid discussions and personal anecdotes, Chelsea and Nora provide listeners with both solidarity and actionable advice for navigating these transformative life stages.

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Connect with the Hosts:

• Chelsea Devantez: Instagram
• Nora McInerney: Instagram

Support the Podcast:
Visit Patreon Chat Lounge to join the conversation and support future episodes.

Transcript

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[Chelsea Devontez]

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[Nora McInerney]

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[Chelsea Devontez]

My name is Snow White.

[Nora McInerney]

Flawless.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Exquisite.

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Waiting on a wish.

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Snow White will have you on your feet.

[Nora McInerney]

I think that's a wonderful idea.

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And cheering for more.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I was thinking the same thing.

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Experience the magical story.

[Nora McInerney]

Magic mirror on the wall.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Who's the fairest one of all?

[Nora McInerney]

Snow White.

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[Nora McInerney]

Hey.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a celebrity memoir podcast where we dive into all of the glamour and all of the trash. I'm your host, Chelsea Devontez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author and sometimes I'm in step two. And today is not a celeb memoir. This is our viral article series where we recap and discuss viral articles as it is part of the glamorous trash literary world. And today we are discussing another advice column article from the Cut. Again, my fave, I'm just loving the Cut. The title is My friends abandoned me when they had Kids by Emily Gould, who is the advice giver. And Anonymous wrote in we're gonna dive into it all. So let's get to it. My guest today is returning guest, dear friend of the podcast, Nora McInerney. She is the author of several funny books about sad things, including the recent essay collection Bad Vibes Only. She's also the host of the podcast, thanks for asking. And she owns several hamsters.

[Nora McInerney]

A major brag for any adult woman.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen, I'm glad you put it in your bio. Nora, thank you so much for coming on to discuss this. It was very important to me that we could, you know, really in the court have both a mother and a non mother. So we've, we have both sides coming in to this spicy article today. I want to start by just giving the clear recap and then we'll debate it. How's that sound?

[Nora McInerney]

Sounds perfect.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, here we go. The person writes and I'm just going to read a Little bit of it. The stuff we need to know. Dear Emily, I don't know how the hell to talk to my friends who are new moms. It's an age old conundrum, certainly, but it feels like the stakes have ratcheted up significantly this year. I'm 31, so my friends have been settling down, getting married and buying houses for years at this point, parentheses where I'm from, women start getting engaged at 25, sometimes earlier. Can we just take a quick tangent, Nora? Because I'm in Hollywood, live in the Hollywood bubble.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Where everyone's like, no one gets married anymore. And like it's not marriage culture and Gen Z has turned their back on marriage. And I'm like, please visit any small town, any, any regular shop. Please visit anywhere outside of Hollywood in the coast. And this is wrong. Can you co sign this?

[Nora McInerney]

Co signed. I was raised in Minneapolis, Minnesota. When I was 25 years old, my father said to me, when I was your age, I had two children and a mortgage and you have credit card debt. And I was like, that's happy birthday to me. I'm going to die alone. Like that was my father truly thought, it's over for her. It'll never happen. And I felt that way too.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And it hasn't changed. All right, let me continue with the letter. But this year was the first year that I really felt being the only single person in every room, family included, and it's been really isolating. And this is going to sound selfish and a little out of touch. I'm getting sick of being the last person asked how they're doing at every dinner table. I am making efforts to understand what their lives are like, but the only consistent questions I get about my own are how's dating seems fun? Or very simplistic questions about work without much follow up. I know 10 years from now I'm going to be going to these same friends for advice when I have a child of my own. In the meantime, I just want to make sure we don't lose or severely damage the friendship. What should I do? It's really about her friends are married and having kids and she is the only single friend who doesn't have kids. And she signs it, sincerely, the last single girl on earth. Oh, honey, come to L. A. You are not the last single girl on earth.

[Nora McInerney]

No, I was the last single girl on earth. It was me. Okay, okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Now let's get into the advice from Emily Gould. The advice. And again, I'm just going to read the parts that I found important. If you live in the same city. Your friends will be very grateful to you if you drop by with a large icy beverage and some tasty snacks in hand. After you make pleasant chitchat for a tight half hour, leave them in peace to try a nap. Like it or not, that's your role to play in their lives. Right now, I'd pick one or two friendships to prioritize and let the rest fall by the wayside. It sounds harsh, but the alternative is to keep feeling like the odd woman out, which sounds like it's been painful as well as boring. With the close mom friends you've chosen, you'll still have to resign yourself to the fact that your role in their lives has changed. It's not realistic or kind to expect them to be able to keep pace with your dating and professional life. But if you put in the effort and make yourself a part of their and their kids lives now, things will eventually shift back to a reasonable new normal. Bring the kids thoughtful little gifts, join family meal times, and do your best to enjoy the meditative boredom of a coffee date at the playground. This won't last forever. It'll be about five years, by which time you may have embarked on a new stage of life on your own. And then, her last piece of advice, don't hang out in rooms where you're the only single girl any more than you absolutely have to. Instead, cultivate old and new friendships with fellow single people and make those relationships your primary focus. This is a phase of your life that you should be enjoying to the fullest, especially if you have plan to have kids later on. Have fun while you still can without paying a sitter. Don't stick around in situations that make you feel left out or important. Unless, of course, you're deeply invested in preserving relationships that are important to you. But even then, you're gonna need to pick and choose. Okay, that's the recap. You guys have it. Now Nora and I are gonna get into the details. Nora, first, I must start off asking you, did you recognize the name Emily Gould?

[Nora McInerney]

I did. Yes. Because I was in New York City, young, single, believing that my life was over because the Minnesota could not leave my soul even if I lived in Greenpoint believing that I would die alone, desperately searching for a forever relationship on an island of misfit toys. And I loved Gawker. I lived for Gawker. I spent all of my work days not doing any work but collecting a salary to read Gawker. So yes, the name Emily Gould rang.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Every bell because she wrote for Gawker.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay. Okay. That's probably the last time I thought of her. Although I did just buy one of her books, a novel at Goodwill. So this is. The portal is open.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

We love that, that this is all happening in one week.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I mean, psychic moment. My God.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And I recognized her because she's had a series of viral articles this year of very scandalizing topics. One was an article she wrote called the Lure of Divorce. Seven years into my marriage, I hit a breaking point and had to decide life would be better with or without my husband in it. I read it and we hadn't started this series yet, so it wasn't on the podcast. It would have been. I read it and I distinctly remember one specific detail from this article where she really talks in depth about this marriage. Breaking down, some mental health things, and then like half a sentence about, like, how she did fuck someone else in a yoga studio, but that's not why the marriage broke down. And then there's another article she recently wrote about, like, how I got over my 10 year grudge against Lena Dunham after we got into, like, something on Twitter with each other. And it was about, like, dealing with how, like, 10 years ago Lena Dunham, like, locked her on Twitter. So all to say, I was shocked that she has an advice column.

[Nora McInerney]

I just can't believe I thought that we had exited the golden age of just personal confessional online essay. Which is, that's how I, like, transitioned from advertising to being a writer. Was just being like, oh, what scab can I pick online today? Just so I love knowing that there's an article about. About contemplating divorce while banging someone in a yoga studio. It is hard for me, Chelsea, you will be hard pressed to find a situation where I will take a man's side in a divorce, even if the wife banged someone in a yoga studio and then wrote about. Wrote about it in an essay. I will, I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll be like, well, I'm sure you'll find a way. Had his faults. Yeah. I'm sure she said it at some point.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Listen. And in the article, it does. I. Oh, I am so with you. I love the personalized essay. When people call it oversharing. I'm like, shut the fuck up. It's just women telling stories. I love that it's back.

[Nora McInerney]

I love it.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I will always defend it. I love that she tells those stories.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

However, I have a piece of advice I give, which is that do not take advice from anyone whose life you don't want. Because people are out here offering advice. They're like, oh, and send in questions. Sending questions. All good. Do you want that person's life? And it's not even a shady way.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, Yeah. I think advice is so tricky. And this is a person who had an advice column when she was 11 years old in the neighborhood newspaper, $25 a column. Now this is you. And I've gotten paid from. This is me. This is me, baby Norris corner. That's more than I've been paid by like major publications, by the way. And advice is so tricky because all you are doing is like drawing from like the narrow band of your own self experience. And if you cannot include that caveat at the beginning of everything, if you cannot remember that all the time and tell a person, take what you like and leave the rest, it's a little sticky situation. And also I love. Don't take advice from somebody whose life you wouldn't want. But also it is hard to ask advice from somebody who has not been where you are. And I'm assuming that if Emily Goldhead still lives in New York, it sounds like, and did her whole 20s, she was not a person who is 31 years old with married friends who had babies and were leaving her out. I think it is a different situation. And a little bit I know we're going to get, we're going to dissect this line by line.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But no, yeah, let's, let's get to it right now.

[Nora McInerney]

There's no way that you can talk about motherhood without it. It inciting something. There is something about being a woman where someone else's choice feels like an indictment of your own. It's bizarre to me. Like, you know, is that the best advice? No, but like, should it be, should it be really raging people? I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

You think this advice, like, shouldn't be making people so mad is what you're saying?

[Nora McInerney]

Kind of. You know, I'm like, well, that's just one woman's opinion. I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Like, yeah, no, I think that's great. I'm kind of hoping we disagree and I want to debate this because I think this is fucked. Up. Up. That's how I feel. I've definitely experienced deep, beautiful, treasured friendships of mine have a 7.7 earthquake when they have children and I don't. And like, how do you hang on to that? And there's this like little story that one of my besties and I have, she's on this podcast all the time where she was giving birth to her child and sent me the text, you're at the Emmys and I'm giving birth. I don't want to totally say it was like from the hospital, but it was something to the point of like at the exact moment she was giving birth, I was trying to get a selfie on the red carpet that would look like a professional had taken it. Like these, this is where we were at in our life. And I think there was pain points on both sides. For me, it's like, I haven't had Whole Foods, I haven't had stable income. She goes to yoga classes. I haven't gone home for holidays. Like I had lived 10 years of this. Honestly, a life you wouldn't want. Which is again, like, don't take my advice unless you really want my life. But like 10 years of pretty brutal struggle to become, you know, a comedian. Whereas she had a family, she had a husband. I, I guess I just say all that to say that like there's just so much nuance to these moments in life. And it felt like Emily was like, she's a mom and you're a dumb bitch. So like bring her toys and like, it's totally fine for them to be a shitty friend to you because you're single and they have a child. So like spend five years fucking hating your time with your friends and like, get over it.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't think it's good advice. I think it's weird advice to me. And I also have to say that I hear everything that you just said and I have a very weird motherhood experience. It's not a central part of my identity. And I say that with one of my children on the other side of this, this wall. I have been this writer, okay. I've been the question asker. I have been a 27 year old, right? Being like, all my friends are married and I'll never fall in love and I'll be alone forever. I didn't feel very left out by, by my friends who were married and had kids. I felt like if anything I othered myself. Like I exited because I just felt so bad and I felt I just had such a poor self image. But when I became a Mom, I was 30 years old. My husband was dying of brain cancer. I was working full time, he was working full time. A lot of my friends didn't have kids and they were still like a part of my daily life all the time. I hope I never made anybody feel that way.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like you didn't And I feel like the advice isn't like, well, they're a mom, so they can be shitty to you now.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

The advice is like, here's how you be a good friend when you've had kids into your life and your brain feels different, your time feels different, and you have to prioritize different, how could you still show up for a friend you care about? And instead, she's like, that girl shouldn't be asked questions about her life. She should bring you toys and coffee. She should have terrible times with you on the playground, and she should leave after 30 minutes. It's like, no, both of you, if you both want this friendship. And I feel really bad about this in that weddings were really big burdens to me most of my life because I just never had money to participate in them. So, like, I couldn't buy the bridesmaid's dress. Yes. I couldn't. Yeah. I couldn't buy the ticket to your bachelorette.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I didn't go to most of my college friends weddings.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I was not a good friend to my friends getting married. And I only know that now because I got married. And now that I've been married, I'm like, oh, here's how you be a good friend. And now when my friends get married, I feel like I'm really good at showing up for them. But I. Like, I did not know how to do that. And so same with kids. It's like, I. I don't. I still probably don't know how to be, like, a great friend to my friends with young kids. Like, I would love to be taught little things to help, but I don't feel like this advice article did that.

[Nora McInerney]

It didn't. It didn't. And it's also. It's so different for everybody. And the only advice you should give in this case is have a conversation. Have a direct conversation with the people that you want to stay connected with. Where you say, this is how I feel. Can you tell me how you feel? And what can we do to make each other feel seen and heard? And it could be that easy.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

Because maybe your friend wants you to come over and hold the baby and watch nine hours of Housewives, which shout out to Chelsea Brink. She did that for me all the time. Like, she was just over. We're working on our laptops. There's a baby on the floor, like, and I don't know how old. I can tell from this article how old these. How old these kids are because it is different, like, when they're babies, honestly, for me, that baby did not cry my style, that baby was. He was just around. I dragged him everywhere. When they're a toddler, the nap schedule, like, you know, they're not going to be napping in your lap all the time. Like, that gets, like, a little hairier, but, like, it's possible to still have a life. And I have never viewed motherhood as. As a hierarchy within, you know, womanhood or personhood. Right. It's a choice. It's not a better choice than any other. I don't think of myself as having any sort of special skill. You literally need no qualifications to become a parent. And most people really don't even think about it that deeply before they straight up call another soul into this world. Like, being a parent does not make you special in any way. And I just have to say that because I did assume that I kind of had to do it. I mean, I wanted to, but I also kind of assumed, like, well, yeah, like, grow up, get married, have. Have children, die. Preferably in that order. Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, my gosh. Such a beautiful beginning, middle, end. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, okay, let's say kids are taking over your life. Let's say, say because your brain changes, your hormones change, whatever your, you know, your income, your help, if you have a partner. Let's say it's taking over your life. Can't you still be like, hey, it would mean so much to me if you brought over that good soda.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

And, like, sat on my couch with me for two hours. And then, yes, I'm gonna try and negotiate a nap time or a sitter. And I'm gonna go to you for two hours next time. Like, isn't there ways to be like. Or saying, like, hey, I'm underwater. I'm absolutely dying. I can't function right now. And I think it's going to last a few months. I've done that, and I don't have kids. I've sent out the call of, like, I think we're underwater for four months. I will see you when I can. Please let me know if there's an emergency. And we love each other, and we move on. Yeah, this advice felt really rude. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now, and we'll be right back.

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[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Let's talk about the part where she says, don't hang out in the same rooms where you are the only single gal any more than you absolutely have to. So twice in my life I've had two different single friends. Either one of them, very peacefully was like, I will no longer be attending anything where everyone has a partner or a couple there except for me, okay? And they were just like, just, just so you know, like, don't invite me anywhere where, like, everyone's in a partnership. And another one let me know that, like, pretty, maybe the opposite of how you communicate that. Where they're just like, I'm so fucking sick and tired and I'm not coming to your stupid dinner because. And I was like, okay, okay, so I want to talk through this because on the other end, I was. I think I was hurt with both because I was like, wait, I really want to hang out with you. So that means I've got to get rid of Yasser in order for you to see. Like, I've got to, like, put him away or in another room or you can't see him, can't lay eyes on.

[Nora McInerney]

Him, or like, kennel. Yes.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Like, I was just sort of like, this is so weird. Like, I want to see you and invest in your life and talk to you and have you over for dinner nights with our other friends. But, like, do I have to put out a blanket? Like, no one can bring someone. Of course I always invite other people who also don't have partners. But, like, what if they don't come? Like, I don't know. I felt really sad, like, you're cutting me out of your life. But maybe that wasn't for me to feel because if multiple people are saying, I'm not coming in this room, maybe it's just not.

[Nora McInerney]

I think it has everything to do with, like, the phase of singleness that you're in too. Because I, like, in early widowhood, it was painful for me to, like, just be in rooms where, like, everyone still had a husband who was alive. And then a few months later, when I wasn't being invited anywhere, I was like, oh, I can't come because my husband is dead. You know, like, cool.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay. I kind of.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

You know, like, it's so hard. And also it's like all these things. This is like a classic rom com issue, which is like, everything could be solved with a direct conversation where everybody interrogates what they really need and expresses it to the people that care about them. And it's very hard to do because we are moving at such a fast pace. We hardly ever really even know how we feel. We're just reacting.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think maybe it is. Maybe that part is good advice. Like, don't be in rooms that make you feel bad. I. I feel like I'd give that advice out. If you're in a room that makes you feel bad, don't be in it. A letter writer, I think what stood out to me is that she said, I'm barely asked questions about my life. They're really simplistic. I always go last, and they're just like, yeah, how's dating? Or whatever. So she's also describing pretty shitty friends. Yeah, I know.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Because absolutely. If you were showing up to your friend group and they don't give a. About who you are, what's going on in your life, simply because your life does not match their choices. That's just like, not a good friend quality. And definitely like, new moms. Moms, listen, just even having the dog I'm training who, like, gets in the way of, like, a friend coming over, I can relate 10 of what that must be like. So it's a real thing.

[Nora McInerney]

You can take children more places than you can take a dog. So, you know, you can take a fussy baby anywhere. You can't take an anxious dog anywhere. It's a liability. And you know, you know, they're not.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Allowed at all restaurants, which I would like to personally petition.

[Nora McInerney]

And look at the very beginning, you sometimes are, I mean, through all kinds of phases. Right. Sometimes you're sort of like forced into things that are not real friendships. They're just proximity because your babies are the same age or your kids go to the Same school. Not every mom wants to be friends with somebody just because they're mom. But you also sometimes feel like maybe I'm boring. Like, am I boring? Am I not. Am I not, like, fun anymore? Am I not interesting? But my best friend does not have children, is divorced, does not want children, is my kid's favorite person in the world, comes on our family vacations with us, comes for Christmas. Like, she's our family. She's our family. I think she's the most interesting person in the world. I want to talk to her about everything. And maybe sometimes we talk about kids, but maybe not. Like, my kids will talk to her about stuff because also, kids need other adults in their lives that are not necessarily parents. And I don't know. That's always been a key part of my friendships, is, like, come over, like, be a part of our lives, and I want to be there when I can be there for you. I had a situation. I was visiting Minnesota. I mentioned Chelsea earlier, my other Chelsea, who also spells it the same way, and she and her partner Ash, were having a party, and I was traveling with all the kids, and I was like, oh, is. Can I. Is it like a bring the kids kind of situation? And she was like, no, it's a midsommar party.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, someone's gonna die.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, oh, okay, no big deal. Like, it literally was not a big deal. I went. My husband stayed with the kids. Like, no big deal. No big deal. I did not feel like, oh, she doesn't love me. She doesn't love my kids. Like, it's not the right venue for them. Yeah, okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is so. That is so cool to hear, Nora. It made me think of again, like, I had a wedding that for me, and. And what I hope a lot of people was, like, a crazy, raging party, but I had two bridesmaids who were pregnant, and it obviously wasn't catered to that. It was like, put on this crazy clothing and here's an open bar, right? But. But it was so beautiful when my bridesmaids, Joe was like, hey, if anyone else are moms on this thread, connect with me. I'll help you with childcare if you're bringing your kids to la, and I'll help you find someone. And, you know, to the other bridesmaids, like, we are both pregnant. Like, what if we go and do this? And I was on that thread. So I'm like, okay, they need this, you know, because my event, like, didn't include it. And I kind of feel like that's. I don't know that's how it should go. Or if, like, if I was going to a thing where, like, I'm the only single person, I would be like, hey, listen, I think I'm gonna kill myself. So you need to invite one more person who I approve of, or I need a plus one. Or give me the guest list and tell me who's there and down to pound. That's what I need. And then I'm gonna do what you need, and I'm gonna attend this beautiful wedding of yours where there's only one single person in me. Or, you know, I kind of feel like, yeah, it's just the good being a good friend, regardless of the differences that are pulling you apart. And I know my friends who are moms have their group threads, and it's all moms. I'm not on it. I'm not invited. Do I get fomo? Yeah, a tiny bit. But I'm also like, yes, get your thread. Get your thing. And also, I also get to remain in your life, and I have my sweet dog friend threads. But you still stay connected if you love each other.

[Nora McInerney]

And I don't want to just be on a mom thread. Like, I don't want to be. You know, I really don't want to be on I don't want to be on a mom thread. I want to be on, like, a person thread, really. And I love that. And I also would not be mad at somebody who threw a wedding and didn't think about people with kids, like, oh, well, okay. You cannot be expected to plan for every single person's, like, life experience. And nobody can meet a need that you do not make known. That is from the song Lean on Me, and it's true. Okay, so. And shout out to producer Christina, who is also my friend, who I have asked for parenting advice. I have asked Christina for parenting advice. She's so good.

[Chelsea Devontez]

She's such a good aunt.

[Nora McInerney]

Smart. It's like, because really, you are. Everybody is a person. A child is a person. Like, your friends who don't have kids have good insights about people. And actually, the best parenting advice I've ever gotten in my life is from people who do not have children because they are not attached to, like, the ego of parenting, which is. There's so much ego in becoming a parent. So thank you. Christina is so beautiful.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I love that. Nora. Okay, it is time to do the article test. I have the booktal test, and I have not thought of a fun name yet because I forgot to put that on my to do list. So here it is still titled the article test. Okay, Nora, the first question is, was it well written, this article?

[Nora McInerney]

I like the way Emily writes. I have to say, I, I'll always like the way Emily writes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

I was gonna say I feel like an easy peasy basic read. Which is. Means good. There were no hiccups. Okay, second question. Did this article make you want to scream about it with someone else?

[Nora McInerney]

Not at first reading, but I, you know, I did read it while drinking coffee with my child at a coffee shop. So no, I was like, I don't know. It's not the best advice, you know. But as I think listeners could hear, we, we raised our voices.

[Chelsea Devontez]

For me, yes, I was enraged. This is a yes for me. I said, how dare you call these friends good friends to this woman?

[Nora McInerney]

I do, I have to say, I do think it's weird to say come over and then leave after 30 minutes again, have a conversation. Maybe she actually wants you to come over and stay for like four hours and you know, and I don't know.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Okay, the final question now, on my last episode with Tracy, she posited that the question could be, did this article deepen your thinking on the subject? But then Nora, a cookie in the Patreon said, what if it was? Did this article contribute to the discourse? Did this article elevate the discourse? Now, which of those questions feels more right to you in terms of an article test as I'm still putting it.

[Nora McInerney]

Together for this one. The first question cuz like, you know, nothing. Like here's the thing is like it's hard to elevate the discourse when the discourse is so angry. Like it, it nothing's getting elevated. You did, you just elevated the discourse. But you know, if it deepened the.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Discourse, I would say yes, because this topic should be discussed and figured out.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So the more like rage around it of like, why is this not. Why is this such a thing in friendships? Maybe that helps us target it.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Also, you know, what's something we didn't talk about, which is that it's not going to be in this episode. But it's like, do men feel this way?

[Chelsea Devontez]

Right. Or do. Or are they just hanging like normal because someone else is taking care of the kids most of the time? And if so, is that your relationship?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And it's like, could that be contributing to this problem?

[Chelsea Devontez]

You know, could that have been the whole discussion point?

[Nora McInerney]

Could that have been the whole discussion? We'll have to TBD that we want the cookies to pick that up in the Thread is what we want.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yeah, pick that up in the thread. And I think the other thread I'd like the cookies to pick up on in the Patreon messages is. Is really that conversation about a single person going to, like, a game night, an event, a hang, where everyone has a partner or even just. It's just you and your partner and one friend is coming over. I definitely wouldn't want to go to a hang where I wasn't always also friends with that partner if I was like, wait, your boyfriend, who I don't know, is. Is here? Like, yeah, I fucking hate that.

[Nora McInerney]

You cannot just bring a man along. That I have not.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Yes. No, no, not. Not Random man.

[Nora McInerney]

No.

[Chelsea Devontez]

But, like, what if you're both friends?

[Nora McInerney]

Okay, for the cookies, if I am friends with, let's say, my lifelong friend, I'm going to go see tonight, it's like, her husband's. I like her husband, but if I want to see her, I. He's got to be announced beforehand, right? I'm not tonight announcing my boyfriend. Sir Mark Kyle, you may bring your husband along if I want him to. You know, it's like, y'all so kind of consented, right? It's like. But when I don't consent to it, and also all, you know, all of a sudden I pull up and I'm like, he's here.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Oh, yeah. Okay. No, no, no. Surprise. Husbands. But, like, let's say it's like, hey, we're having people over for dinner. Yasir and I are inviting so and so and them and so and so. And then we'd love to have you over. Am I a rude bitch? I want to know because I've done that. So please weigh in.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I don't know. But I also. I want to close this up by saying, like, if you do not have children, if you are not partnered, I honestly, a lot of times I'm very envious of your life, and I want to validate that as a life choice or a life stage, whether or not it is by choice. Like, trust me, every. Every decision that you make has different outcomes and different. Like, you know, I don't know, it just has different feelings associated with it at different points in time. And I. I love you, and I think you're doing a great job. And I don't think that anyone, you know, who has kids or is married is, like, any better than you or any more, like, worthy. Most of it is so random. Like, I just, like, happened to meet two men stupid enough to, you know, it's like, this is full trickery.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That is beautiful, Nora. I love that. Thank you so much for coming on you. Thanks for having me rebranded. Change the name of your podcast to thanks for asking. I love it so much. Please give people the spiel. Tell them where to find you all the good stuff.

[Nora McInerney]

It's a call in show about whatever you want to talk about. So I am taking calls at 612-568-4441. You can call or text and then I'll call you back. So maybe it's more of a call out show. The episodes in their entirety are only on substack right now, but there's plenty like out on the main feeds every once in a while. But I just wanted to do something smaller and quieter and kind of rethink my life and my place in this world and what a great elevator pitch that is.

[Chelsea Devontez]

It's so beautiful. Everything you touch is incredible. I love your newsletter. Read it every time it hits my inbox. You read great books to and give book recommendations, so obviously that applies to our audience. And you're also on Instagram.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm on Instagram. Instagram. Nora Borealis. It's not my last name, but I won't ever let go of my screen name. That is Millennial Core.

[Chelsea Devontez]

That's so good.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Chelsea Devontez]

So good. Thank you so much for coming on.

[Nora McInerney]

Sorry. I'm so fucking lonely. I'm going to talk to you forever. This is people trying to get off the phone with me, but I work alone. I'm like, look, also, if I see a husband out there, I didn't want to see.

[Chelsea Devontez]

Did your husband walk into this podcast recording? A huge thank you to our podcast producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hamm, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to let you know that if you love audiobooks but you want to support independent bookstores, go to Libro FM where it is easy to download audiobooks and support local bookshops. And right now you get two Libro FM audiobooks for the price of one with your first month of membership using code TRASH. That's right, trash T R A S H. Two audiobooks for the price of 1 at Libro FM. And if you have questions, go to the Patreon Chat Lounge and I will see you there.