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- [00:00]
A
Today on the show, the Benny Jesret better lawyer the fuck up because we're taking them to court.
- [00:08]
B
Dun dun dun dun dun. I think that's a court song. TV theme song.
- [00:13]
A
I was trying to bring some Phoenix Wright energy to that intro.
- [00:16]
B
Objection. I agree. Y. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. I'm Judge Leo.
- [00:53]
A
And I'm the honorable Abu.
- [00:57]
B
And today on the show, we're talking about the Bene Gesserit. We're talking about the Bene Gesserit in the context of their crimes, their misdemeanors, their felonies, whatever. They're the villains of Dune. That's. That's the episode's title. You knew that when you pressed Play. And I wanted to actually give a special shout out because today's episode was suggested by Matthew Good, who in addition to suggesting a very fun, interesting episode, also sent us this, like, five page explanation with receipts. Very, very cool. Some of that information was used in the early parts of creating this script. So we really appreciate the suggestion, Matthew. Really cool. Love to dig into some of this stuff a little bit more intentionally.
- [01:45]
A
That's right. Thank you so much for the lovely email and the detailed email. Now, before we get into today's court case, folks, we got to take care of some housekeeping, take care of some of that administrative work. Beginning, of course, with a spoiler warning. Today's episode is going to spoil all of Frank's books. We are going to take into account all six of the Dune books written by Frank Herbert as we litigate whether the Bene Gesserit are the greatest villains in the Dune universe. So you have been warned, if you are sensitive to spoilers, make sure you have read all the way through. Chapter House.
- [02:20]
B
Dune, indeed. Now, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, as always, Daniel Dion and Seth Redding Greer. My God. Star witnesses, indeed. We had you testify during this court case, but you just kept being generous and great and then the whole courthouse lifted you up on their shoulders and they were cheering and throwing you into the rah, rah, rah. Daniel Daniel. Seth Redding Greer. Seth Redding Greer. It was. I don't know why they used Seth's. It was disarray. Yeah.
- [02:49]
A
The courthouse broke out into a dance number. It was. I loved it, frankly.
- [02:54]
B
High School Musical. The courthouse drama. It was great and only half as great as you two are. So thank you for your support. But of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level. Literally. We could not do this show without the kind of support that you all show month after month for as little as $5 a month. Makes a huge difference. Thank you so much.
- [03:16]
A
It does indeed. And of course, a quick reminder that if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter on Patreon right now, that's a. Okay, check out the buy me a coffee link in the show notes. That's a great place for you to toss us a one time tip as a thank you. That's also greatly appreciated and goes a long way toward helping this production keep churning.
- [03:37]
B
Yeah, we're making butter. That's what we do. So today's episode. Now I will admit to you, dear listener, this episode started as a. As a very serious analytical approach to a proposed hypothesis. What if the Bene Gesserit were the villains of Dune? And it quickly devolved into what you're going to hear, which is a raucous courthouse drama. That's right, where we are the prosecutors, where the defense attorneys. This is going to be so weird, but it's going to be fun, I think. And all of this is happening, of course, within Frank's universe, this intentionally morally gray landscape of characters, actors, organizations. You know, he was warning people about charismatic leaders, but he always was putting a little bit of good in the bad and a little bit of bad in the good. Right. So along those lines, if we just were trying to say, hey, are the Bene Gesserits the villains of Dune or are they ev. The answer is always going to be, yeah, because everyone's kind of the villain at some point. Right?
- [04:48]
A
Right.
- [04:49]
B
But today we want to put aside those moral grays, and we're taking the Bene Gesserit to court. All of them, just all, trillions of them are on the, in the, in the courthouse. And the charge against them is that the Bene Gesserit are the true villains of Dune. Wow. And the greatest threat to humanity.
- [05:11]
A
Holy shit. We're not mincing words here.
- [05:14]
B
That's the, that's the charge. I mean, again, sometimes things shake out in court. Maybe, you know, things soften over time. But, like, that's the accusation. They are the true villains of Dune and the greatest threat to humanity.
- [05:29]
A
Wow. Okay. This is a big one. This is Supreme Court. We're not talking like low, low level.
- [05:35]
B
Local court, you know, District of Alameda Court, California. No, no, they're not going to handle that. No.
- [05:40]
A
Nope. This is too big for them. True villains in all of Dune. Huge. So over the course of today's episode. This is going to be fun. Like you said, Leo, we're going to play both sides of the argument in the first half of the episode. You and I are going to be playing the lawyers presenting the evidence for this claim, acting as the prosecution, focusing on the moments throughout Frank's stories that we think would convince you, dear listener, acting as our jury that the Bene Gesserit are the true villains. And then after the ad break, we're gonna flip it all around. We're gonna play the defendants, the lawyers, who will lay out the counter arguments for why the Bene Gesserit aren't villains and, in fact, might be the true heroes of the Dune universe.
- [06:25]
B
Wow.
- [06:26]
A
And then finally, at the end of the episode, we're gonna rip off our lawyer clothes and don our judge robes to provide our opinions and our verdict on where we think the Bene Gesserit fall in this moral binary that we are cramming them into over the course of today's episode.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, it's a tall order for the defense. I think most defense attorneys settle for not guilty. This defense attorney's going for. No, no, actually. Actually, fuck that. They're the heroes. Wow. Full reversal. I think, actually the person who was murdered is the perpetrator.
- [07:07]
A
The defense is not happy enough just to get this charge dismissed. We're gonna flip this shit around on you.
- [07:14]
B
Uno, reverse card. The whole trial. It's gonna be great. Well, before we get into it, we're gonna take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. When we're back, the inaugural season of Gom Jabbar Courthouse Drama, right after this. Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. And I'm CeeDee Lamb, wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys. You know I'm here for Abercrombie's Cowboys gear. That's not a question, but I need a whole wardrobe to go with it. No shade to the guys, but I'm used to having the best tunnel fits. This season, Abercrombie has me covered. Shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online and in store. Foreign.
- [08:03]
A
Friends, welcome back and welcome to the courtroom. As we said in the opening, we are going to start, Leo, you and I acting as the lawyers on the prosecution side. We are going to make the case for why the Bene Gesserit are the true villains of this story. So, dear members of the jury, Honorable Judge, at this point, we are all familiar with the Bene Gesserit and their sordid ways. Okay.
- [08:31]
B
Sorted. We all know. Yes.
- [08:33]
A
That they have definitely, definitely done some messed up stuff. Much of which we will be getting into in our evidence today. My esteemed colleague Leo and I will be laying out the evidence that puts to rest once and for all the question of the true Bene Gesserit character, revealing their villainous nature clearly for all to see. We are confident that we will lay out a strong case today.
- [08:59]
B
A Bene Gesserit veil has been drawn over your eyes for far too long. Members of the jury, we are pulling that veil away and revealing that it was Groundskeeper Willie the whole time. So let us present our first piece of evidence. Your Honor, we. We'd like to enter into evidence political and religious manipulation. Everyone's favorite type of manipulation. With the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. They have been planting and twisting religious beliefs for tens of thousands of years.
- [09:37]
A
Wow.
- [09:38]
B
Molding entire cultures in order to arrest, control, and create safeguards for their agents on the ground. Do they care about the sanctity of cultures and their beliefs? No. No. These are handles for them to grab and to twist in order to achieve their goals. The Sisterhood has weaponized faith itself.
- [10:03]
A
My God.
- [10:04]
B
My God. You're not allowed to say that anymore because they've weaponized even the idea of God.
- [10:10]
A
Is it even my God?
- [10:12]
B
It's their God. We should all be saying their God. They have turned sincere religious devotion, sympathetic cultures, fallen to their trickery into a tool of control. The cynicism with which they wield this core human value. Well, it's just enough to make me an atheist blush.
- [10:36]
A
Look at those rosy cheeks.
- [10:37]
B
Look at those. It's the red shirt. It's the lights bouncing. Now, as the jury is well aware, this manipulation backfires spectacularly, not only on the Sisterhood, but on all of humanity. Billions and billions of lives taken, lost in the various jihads spurned by their mechanisms. Their religious tampering on Arrakis raised Paul Atreides to godhood, created the cultural conditions for his jihad that subjugated the entire Imperium. That's a lot of blood. I'm not saying yet we know that they're guilty. But that is a lot of blood, dear members of the jury, on the hands of a group whose goal is, if I check their propaganda website, I mean homepage, to protect and nurture the human race. Hmm. Sure. Dubious. Dubious.
- [11:30]
A
Yeah. Interesting way to go about doing that, wouldn't you Say. Yeah, but folks, here's the thing. Let's not forget the many millennia of political manipulation that preceded all of this. That preceded the Kwizzetz Haderach incident. The Bene Gesserit have been pulling the strings of politics from the shadows for countless generations. Paul Atreides himself recognizes this in Villeneuve's first film. And the Sisterhood, for generations, has been establishing their members as wives, concubines and advisors, whose true loyalty, as it turns out, has always been to the sisterhood first.
- [12:11]
B
Deplorable.
- [12:12]
A
Imagine an advisor who's actually scheming for a group that's working against you. A solid example. Consider Sharam, the fourth Padishah, Emperor of the known universe, who accepted annual Corrino as wife without knowing that she had the capability to determine the biological sex of. Of her children. Five daughters later, no heirs. Five daughters later, he is forced to hand the Corrino throne to the son of an unknown house. Yeah, and you can imagine he had hoped that it wouldn't be some Atreides kid from the desert. But alas, we all know how that played out.
- [12:54]
B
Indeed.
- [12:55]
A
All because of Bene Gesserit scheming unknown to the Emperor himself. And if a particularly troublesome noble refuses to fall in line with the Bene Gesserit scheme, what do we do? What do you think we do?
- [13:10]
B
Expect their consent. Give them the opportunity to. Oh, no. What do they do? Abu, Tell the jury, Dear Jury.
- [13:18]
A
The Bene Gesserit resort to utilizing the Voice. Ever heard of it? A blunt tool of coercion and control that completely takes away another person's agency. Imagine being compelled to do something you don't wish to do.
- [13:34]
B
Awful. Awful.
- [13:36]
A
Imagine what nefarious purposes a tool like that can be used for.
- [13:40]
B
Let's actually play for the courthouse. Let's play the footage of Thufir Howat having the Voice used on him. Look at that bamboozled old man that. Absolutely. His. His flabbers gasted.
- [13:53]
A
Gasted.
- [13:54]
B
Gasted. He's off his rocker. Actually, back in his rocker. And he didn't want to be there. That's. That's what we're talking about.
- [14:05]
A
And mind you, Thufir Hawat, one of the most legendary mentats in all of human history, completely astounded by the Voice.
- [14:17]
B
If it could happen to him, dear Jury member, it could happen to you, could happen to your family, could happen.
- [14:23]
A
To anyone you care about right now.
- [14:25]
B
Could be happening to you. It's not. We're not Bene Gesserit trained, but could be right Now.
- [14:31]
A
And that's not fear mongering. That's the cold, hard truth.
- [14:35]
B
So cold, so hard. Zooming out. The Sisterhood's entire modus operandi. Their way of doing things is based in lies, in deception, in schemes, in manipulation. And we're supposed to trust this group? With humanity, with the power they have?
- [14:58]
A
Not I.
- [14:59]
B
To Not I. Not I. He agrees. Your aims and intentions can be as noble as the heavens. But if your actions are borrowed from the depths of hell, how are we to judge you as anything but villainous and dangerous preachers?
- [15:15]
A
Sorry, Judge. I know, I know I'm not supposed to react, but my spitting fires.
- [15:21]
B
Who said that? Who keeps yelling that from right where I'm standing? You can talk the talk all you want, Benny Jesuit, but if you're. If the walk you're walking is. Is paved and paved. If the walk you're walking is clad in blood, you are, I suspect, on a way to a guilty verdict and jury. We're not even done getting started. We're still getting started. This is only the beginning. As Johnny turned and said directly into camera, there's more to come, I think, because this next piece of evidence should give everyone. This is a legal term. The ick.
- [15:59]
A
The ick.
- [16:00]
B
The ick.
- [16:01]
A
Legally, the ick.
- [16:02]
B
Guilty of the ick.
- [16:06]
A
The Bene Gesserit folks have proudly practiced eugenics and selective breeding.
- [16:14]
B
The ick.
- [16:15]
A
You got it. You got it.
- [16:16]
B
I have the same here. Yeah, legally. It just happened.
- [16:21]
A
Look, the Sisterhood have been acting as the arbiters for what they believe are quote, unquote, good genetics to, quote, unquote, improve humanity according to their vision. Because the reality is. Let's ask the rhetorical questions here. Who sets the bar for which genetics are good enough? Who then submits the most powerful leaders and their heirs to cruel needle and box based testing?
- [16:52]
B
I hear they use something called the Gom Jabbar. I don't know what it is. Sounds terrible.
- [16:58]
A
Sounds fucking stupid.
- [16:59]
B
But give it five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [17:05]
A
I have heard that. Please do.
- [17:06]
B
That sounds so dumb. Five out of five, please.
- [17:11]
A
Now, don't take our word for it, Dear jury, consider the dehumanizing language the leadership of the Sisterhood itself uses to describe this disgusting breeding program. Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Boheim tells Paul Atreides in the first book. The original Bene Gesserit school was directed by those who saw the need of a thread of continuity in human affairs. They saw there could be no such continuity without separating human stock from animal stock for breeding purposes. End quote.
- [17:50]
B
Now, I don't know about you, but that kind of dehumanizing language has popped up in humanity's history time and time again.
- [17:57]
A
Indeed.
- [17:57]
B
And it is never a good thing. No, it is never a good thing. Thing to determine someone less than human. And they proudly explain this to a child. Hey, boy. Who was asleep two pages ago. Let me tell you, some people aren't even human.
- [18:17]
A
That's right. And we get to decide who is.
- [18:20]
B
We're the arbiters.
- [18:21]
A
Put your hand in this box.
- [18:23]
B
Put your hand in this box. What's in it? Pain. Now, in case jury, you were thinking, you're like, you know what? Eugenics. I'm fine with that. I'm cool with you dehumanizing other people. Maybe that's you, dear jury member. And maybe you're gonna, you know, in this sympathetic headspace, you're gonna give the Bene Gesserit the benefit of the doubt and be like, you know what? They don't want these undesirable. Undesirable traits to disappear from humanity's gene pool forever and ever. And that's some sort of noble purpose. They know what they're doing. Consider the abomination situation.
- [19:03]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [19:04]
B
My goodness. If you didn't have the certifiable ick yet, I suspect you will have it in a few moments. They have been practicing infanticide in the cases, any suspected cases of abomination. Someone could sneeze and it sounds a little bit like the word abomination. Every baby two mile radius dead. This is inhumane for sure. But perhaps it is necessary if there is no solution.
- [19:32]
A
Sure.
- [19:32]
B
Of course. We have the piece of evidence that the defense has preemptively submitted. Alia Atreides, Case of abomination. This is the risk. We understand. We admit it's monstrous, heartbreaking to see what happened to sweet young Alia.
- [19:47]
A
Indeed.
- [19:48]
B
Nevertheless, if there was no solution, maybe that would hold up here in court. But fine folks of the jury, as we see in Children of Dune, we have not one, but two solutions.
- [20:01]
A
My God.
- [20:02]
B
My God. Did these solutions come from Bene Gesserit who have studied thousands of years of memory? No. Children. Children came up with these solutions. 9 year olds solved this problem outside of the Bene Gesserit fold.
- [20:18]
A
That's right.
- [20:19]
B
They came up with two solutions. Solutions that the Bene Gesserit, who claim to know what's best for all humanity, have been blind to their entire existence.
- [20:28]
A
My goodness.
- [20:29]
B
Also, my counterpart here brought up a great point recently. In a conversation about other memory and the fact that it is not only to have children and only to pass on your genetics, but also to join this long unbroken chain of human experience. When you begin to cut out, quote, unquote, undesirable qualities, you are limiting the range of perspectives in your other memory pool, which we propose becomes a feedback loop. Think about the blind spots. If you have no neurologically diverse, you are going to have. Only the victors are writing that history book. It's the same problem that standard textbooks have. And now you have it internally as your primary tool. Sounds problematic. Sounds like an issue that they have never once admitted or addressed or absolved themselves from.
- [21:24]
A
Well said. So well spoken.
- [21:26]
B
Thank you. I had a bullet point that I was referencing in the script.
- [21:31]
A
We're good lawyers. We came to this courtroom prepared with notes.
- [21:34]
B
We should have shuffling. True.
- [21:36]
A
I should be like clicking a pen this whole time now. Not nervous energy, excited, amped up energy. I did some cocaine right before this. You know, constantly clicking a pen.
- [21:46]
B
You can't be a good lawyer without a bit of cocaine.
- [21:52]
A
Honorable Judge, dear members of the jury, we have another huge piece of evidence we'd like to present in our case today. The Sisterhood have intentionally made harmful decisions. It's clear throughout the Dune series that the Bene Gesserit are anything but infallible.
- [22:13]
B
Yeah.
- [22:13]
A
And their mission in steering humanity stumbles time and time again in the face of their own arrogance and blindness. As you so well laid out for us.
- [22:25]
B
Wax wings, Wax wings, melting in the sun. Bene Gesserits, indeed.
- [22:29]
A
We've already just today laid out two incredibly damning pieces of evidence. The Kwisatz Haderach disaster, which cost billions and billions of lives. And the Abomination murders, which cost untold children's lives over the course of human history. And as damaging as their actions have been for humanity, before we can call them true villains of the Dean universe, we do have to square their intentions with their actions. Did they intend for so many lives to be lost in the Kwisatz Haderach disaster? Did they intend to murder so many babies in fear of abomination? Some definitions of villainy require that there is such evil intent behind actions. And we must admit there isn't a case to be made here that the Bene Gesserit have always had evil intentions behind action. These actions. But we can confidently highlight them as the primary antagonists of this story and to this universe, whether or not they meant to be. This becomes especially egregious when we broaden our focus beyond Just the first, second or third books in the series. And consider the latter half of the series, books four, five and six, where the stakes couldn't be higher. The stakes are literally the survival of humanity, avoiding extinction level. Events that Paul Atreides and Leto Atreides foresaw in the future. But folks, if you'll recall, the Bene Gesserit time and time again in God Emperor of Dune opposed the God Emperor Leto to Atreides and thus opposed his Golden Path.
- [24:25]
B
Shameful. Shameful. It's called the Golden Path. How can you oppose that? It sounds beautiful. Leads to the Emerald City. I think it's great branding. He knocked it out of the first try. He knocked it out of the park. He has the Don Draper in his, like, other memory pool. Here's. Here's my pitch for this ad campaign.
- [24:46]
A
Exactly. Exactly.
- [24:47]
B
Now, the key to all of this. Dear members of the jury. We're not just checking our boots, seeing what we find. We are following a thread. And this thread was woven by a certain well known giant worm God Emperor Philip. And all of this goes to Leto's words, the God Emperor himself. His words discovered by Odrade and heretics of Dune, which we'd now like to enter into evidence as well.
- [25:17]
A
Indeed.
- [25:17]
B
Quote, why did your sisterhood not build the Golden Path? You knew the necessity. Your failure condemned me, the God Emperor, to millennia of personal despair. End quote.
- [25:34]
A
My God Emperor.
- [25:35]
B
My God Emperor, Their God. Your honor, we dare not, we daren't ignore the words of the God Emperor. This is, we believe, the nail in the cosmic coffin. Had the Bene Gesserit been totally unaware of what was at stake? If they were foolishly wrapped up in their own little narrative and they were just letting billions die and sometimes directly killing millions for their own noble purpose. So they claim. Sure, they're hapless. They're idiotic. We accept that. Well, that's a different trial for a different day. But Leto tells us that they knew something like the Golden Path was necessary. So if today's trial is about, among other things, the Golden Path and humanity's survival, the Bene Gesserit knew what had to be done. Arguably had the greatest chance of doing it, considering they have always sought after holding those horns of the bull. Humanity's horns. They didn't do it. But worse than that, they resisted God Emperor Leto. Every step of the way feels wrong. He didn't really use his legs very much most of his life. They resisted him. Every worm writhe of the way at the risk of your very lives. Members of the jury. They were playing cosmic roulette. They put it all on green. Who does that with your very lives. That's a one out of a hundred. There's. You're not going to get it.
- [27:09]
A
Sorry, sorry. Now I'm trying to picture a roulette board.
- [27:13]
B
It's got. I think it's got one, two green spots. Yeah.
- [27:17]
A
So in conclusion, honorable judge and dear members of the jury. Sexy members of the jury.
- [27:22]
B
My God, you look great. I look.
- [27:25]
A
We rest our case. Whether or not it was intentional. Through their millennia of manipulation, breeding and opposition to the God Emperor, the Bene Gesserit have continued to nudge humanity to a breaking point that would have led to our extinction if not for the intervention of. Of Leto to Atreides, the God Emperor. Need we remind you that they literally threw deadly poison at the God Emperor, hoping to kill him.
- [28:02]
B
Is that an appropriate. Thank you?
- [28:04]
A
This is well documented in God.
- [28:07]
B
Check this. Watch the footage. Watch the. Look how stupid she looks. Throwing it at. Does nothing.
- [28:12]
A
He knew she had it the whole time. It's kind of silly.
- [28:15]
B
It's sad. It's sad. And there's. Pathetic. Pathetic. That's what I think it is.
- [28:20]
A
Yeah, agreed.
- [28:23]
B
I also think that it's such a rush being mean.
- [28:29]
A
More cocaine. The prosecution rests its case here. The Bene Gesserit are the true villains of the Dune universe and the greatest threat to humanity.
- [28:42]
B
Now, I'm sure the defense is chomping at the bit. They want to say their piece. Your members of the jury are doing cocaine. They're currently on the hallway doing cocaine. Members of the jury, we implore you, ignore them. Just ignore everything they say. And. Guilty. That's. That's the. That's what we want. That's what we want. But before they come back in again, they're still doing cocaine out in the hallway. We're going to take one last quick break. Don't go anywhere. There they are snorting up a storm just 15ft that way through those double oak doors in the courthouse. We'll be right back right after this. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning training app. It's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.
- [29:46]
A
Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad.
- [29:51]
B
Delivered so fast you can get this.
- [29:53]
A
Puppy under control fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting.
- [29:57]
B
Fast.
- [29:57]
A
Pee pads, cooling mat, peg him fast and fast. And there's training treats faster than you can say sit fast.
- [30:03]
B
And now we can all relax and.
- [30:06]
A
Order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute.
- [30:08]
B
Fast. Fast.
- [30:10]
A
Free delivery. It's on prime. Okay, folks, welcome back. Court is back in session. I hope your lunch break was lovely. You always have to take a recess during a court thing and go get lunch at a weird place nearby. I hope you did that.
- [30:28]
B
I had shawarma.
- [30:29]
A
Now we return to hear the other side of the argument. The defense will take the stand. And my dear colleague Leo and I, we're now the defense lawyers. Just go with it. Pretend for the others. Now, yeah, we will be laying out the argument for why the Bene Gesserit are not the villains of the Dune universe and in fact, may even be the true heroes that humanity has needed all along. So let's get into it.
- [30:55]
B
Indeed. Let's do it. First time we're.
- [31:07]
A
Some. Something in my nose there, but I'm ready. Let's get this defense started.
- [31:12]
B
Okay. I don't know what it sounds like.
- [31:14]
A
Yeah, I don't really know either. Honorable judge and dear sexy members of the jury.
- [31:22]
B
So hot. So sexy.
- [31:23]
A
The prosecution, as handsome and charismatic as they are also hot, have done their best. Yeah, they're incredibly hot.
- [31:30]
B
Actually, super hot.
- [31:31]
A
They have done their best to paint our clients, the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, as reckless, inept and morally bankrupt villains. But they have fundamentally misrepresented our clients, willfully ignoring history, precedent, human nature, and the greater good.
- [31:52]
B
Greater good Bars.
- [31:55]
A
Look, the prosecution can puff up their chests and point fingers all they want, but the fact is they can only do that under the security blanket provided by the sacrifices of countless sisters, as we will lay out today in our case.
- [32:11]
B
Yeah, fuck the prosecution. Sorry, sorry. Reining it in. That was the cocaine speaking. We brought our own evidence.
- [32:22]
A
Hell, yeah, we did.
- [32:23]
B
Hell, yeah, we did. Exhibit A. The brink of destruction. Just picture it. What do you think is on the table right now? Humanity has found itself on the verge of extinction. Countless times, we do this to ourselves. I mean, in many cases, this is kind of what we do as a species. Perhaps skirting closest to oblivion during the Butlerian Jihad. Nothing less than the breakdown of every piece of infrastructure we had come to depend upon as our galactic civilization spread. Indeed, after humanity succumbed to their darkest urges, their darkest fears, their Paranoia wreaking havoc across the Empire, leaving planets stranded, unable to get the food they needed, the support they needed. Who, I ask you, acted as a beacon of hope and restoration.
- [33:21]
A
Great question.
- [33:22]
B
Who was that lighthouse on the distant shore shining a light for all to see? Well, they did it from the shadows, but it was the Bene Gesserit. It was the Bene Gesserit who, by preserving history, by discovering other memory, that wild Reverend Mother on Rossick. They mediated negotiations. They upheld the peace. Thanks to their advisory as Truthsayers. They stepped in. They said, polygraph machines. I don't know her. She doesn't go to this school. You got me in the house, Gazelle, ready to verify anything you need me to. That guy's lying. That guy's telling the truth. Look how good I am.
- [34:01]
A
That's right.
- [34:02]
B
They guided the entire Imperium towards stability. What could have been. Very easily, dear members of the jury, the end of the long storied history of humanity instead continued thanks to the efforts of Truthsayers and the religious support of the various Bene Gesserit institutions around the galaxy. Now, could the disorganized and weakened Great Houses have stepped up this way following the destruction of the Jihad? Do we suppose the fucking idiots in control could have pulled humanity back from the brink? Morons is so dumb. Gets me so riled up thinking about how stupid they are. And it was the Sisterhood amid turbulent waves. It was the Sisterhood that was there for Rose to ride upon until help arrived. They rose to the occasion. I rose. That's funny. They rose to the occasion. None of us in this courtroom today would be here, would be standing here today without the guidance, the sacrifices, the grit of the Bene Gesserit.
- [35:16]
A
Wonderfully said. Mmm. I love it when you get riled up.
- [35:20]
B
Thanks. Exhibit B. Yeah.
- [35:26]
A
Dear members of the jury, evolution, not eugenics. The defense categorically denies the accusation that the Sisterhood practice eugenics and weeds out undesirable people and traits from humanity. What ludicrous claims. The Sisterhood's breeding program elevates and strengthens the best in humanity, securing peace and survival by ensuring that humans remain adaptable, that humans are capable of facing any and all dangers the universe throws at us.
- [36:06]
B
Unless you wish to paint, dear prosecutors. Selection bias. Humanity choosing its own mates and based on superficial qualities for all of time, all of history. Unless you're saying that's the villain. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
- [36:23]
A
No, you don't. I don't see any legs.
- [36:25]
B
No legs like The God Emperor. But less cool.
- [36:28]
A
Less cool.
- [36:29]
B
More stupid. But hotter, sexier.
- [36:33]
A
And consider that by instituting this breeding program the Sisterhood have, in fact curtailed humanity's worst tribal instincts by mixing diverse bloodlines and binding together disparate cultures and politics. Who else in this universe would dare to try and unite House Atreides and House Harkonnen through marriage? Who would imagine that these two houses who have hated and fought each other for 10,000 years, could be united? The Bene Gesserit dared to think along those lines and have done so for thousands and thousands of years to the benefit of humanity.
- [37:19]
B
And need I remind you all, dear members of the jury that tribalism, that disdain, that vitriol for anyone who's not part of your House. That's something that's happening on its own. That's something that the men in charge are bringing to the table and the Bene Gesserit are softening those edges, making these sorts of unifications possible in a world where they would never in a million billion years ever happen if not for them.
- [37:48]
A
Indeed.
- [37:49]
B
Now, no sister would deny the black stain of abomination on the history of the Bene Gesserit. It is a shameful thing, what happened to sweet Alia Atreides. And we have our deepest sympathies and condolences for the Atreides family who we read, understand our thoughts and prayers.
- [38:06]
A
Our thoughts and prayers.
- [38:06]
B
Thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers to the Atreides family who some members are here today in this unspecified time in the Dune canon timeline. But consider the Sisterhood's willingness to adapt and evolve in the face of the unknown. Now, you might say Lady Jessica, the ultimate traitor to The Bene Gesserit. 10,000 years of planning. It's up to her to deliver a daughter to the Bene Gesserit so that they can achieve their Kwisatz Haderach. And? And she disobeyed. She delivered a son to Duke Leto. A crime of love. A crime of passion. Wow. Now, the Bene Gesserit, if the prosecution were to be even a little bit believed, the Bene Gesserit would have killed her. Strung her up, you know, made sure she never saw the light of another beautiful dawn.
- [39:00]
A
Right?
- [39:01]
B
Murder.
- [39:01]
A
Jessica's baby in the crib.
- [39:03]
B
The prosecution would say that's what they would claim. Because they're dumb again. Attractive, but dumb. And yet what did they do? The Reverend Mother Superior Gaius Hell Gass. Helen went to the boy had a chance. And instead all she did was adapt. They welcomed Jessica back into the Fold Jessica, loyal to the Bene Gesserit for the rest of her life with all of those tools at their disposal. They chose not to kill the boy. They chose to allow Paul Atreides to grow and to continue. Even after discovering that Jessica had given him illicit training in their secretive ways.
- [39:45]
A
Right.
- [39:45]
B
They even allowed Jessica to continue to train him, to test the boy, to explore his potential. That doesn't sound like the actions of a monster to me. That sounds kind. That sounds like they're willing to forgive and they're willing to adapt and to move forward together.
- [40:01]
A
Exactly. It showcases that the Sisterhood is, of course, not infallible. No institution or human ever is. But they, unlike many other institutions who are mired in stagnation, are willing to adapt when presented with new information, are willing to evolve and shed their previous shackles. Indeed, the case of Lady Jessica and Paul Atreides is one of our greatest examples of them doing just that.
- [40:32]
B
Now, it's interesting. Paul Atreides should come up because the prosecution very quick to point fingers at the Bene Gesserit when things go awry. But when things go right, when humanity sees that light shimmering in the darkness, the first sign of landfall for the long voyage and mysterious night, no credit is given at all to those who made it happen.
- [40:59]
A
Intriguing.
- [41:00]
B
I think this leads us to exhibit.
- [41:02]
A
C. This leads us right into exhibit C. Great segue, Leo. No Kwisatz Haderach. No humanity, folks. The prosecution has been quick to lay the blame of muad'dib's jihad at the Sisterhood's feet. Ignoring a glaring issue in their argument. Were it not for the Sisterhood's well laid plans, there would be no Messiah with the necessary prescient abilities required to save humanity from total extinction. There would be no Paul Atreides. There would be no Leto and kanima Atreides. The 61 billion lives lost in that terrible Jihad or the countless trillions subjugated beneath the tail of the God Emperor are not the Sisterhood's crime. As any prescient Messiah would tell you, these were necessary sacrifices required to secure humanity's future. Paul and Leto II both agonized over these decisions. And while the father turned his back, the son made the tough choices.
- [42:15]
B
And I would point out that as we talk about this, you can lay these jihads, this loss of life, you can lay that darkness of Leto's peace at the Bene Gesserit's feet. But prosecution, are you suggesting that Paul Atreides was following Bene Gesserit directives when he killed 61 billion people. Are you suggesting Leto was an obedient pawn of the Bene Gesserit? And I will highlight the actions of known Bene Gesserit members during these periods. They were, yes, they were acting against Paul and Leto. But how do we know they weren't aiming to soften some of that loss of human life?
- [43:03]
A
Right.
- [43:03]
B
Attempting to lessen the worst instincts of Paul, who didn't even know what he was doing. He was lost in his own traps of prescience. And Leto much more knew what he was doing.
- [43:15]
A
These are excellent questions you've raised, Leo. And you know this. Talk of tough choices leads us to our final exhibit today. The final nail in our rock solid defense of the Bene Gesserit.
- [43:32]
B
We're using nails in something that's rock solid. What kind of nails are these?
- [43:37]
A
Just stick with the analogy. We're almost to the landing, folks.
- [43:41]
B
Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, nails.
- [43:43]
A
Buckle your seatbelts. There's going to be a bit of turbulence, but we're going to stick the landing.
- [43:47]
B
It's made of rock, we use nails and there are seat belts. That's what we're riding on.
- [43:53]
A
What are we building? Who knows?
- [43:55]
B
The Leto's cart. That's what we're building. Now for our final and most powerful defense of the Bene Gesserit. Again, seatbelts. Buckled. Arms and legs within the cart at all times. Great. Not all heroes wear capes. True members of the jury, you know that you might be able to name a hero or two. How many of them? Capes. Again. No capes. As Edna declares in the documentary Incredibles, the Bene Gesserit, their plans, they play out over. Have you seen the Incredibles?
- [44:27]
A
I've seen the Incredibles. Okay, okay, I got that.
- [44:30]
B
The thought. The thought occurred to me. I was like you.
- [44:37]
A
No, no, I'm safe there.
- [44:40]
B
Okay, great. Now, the Bene Gesserit's plans, they play out over millennia. And to impose short sighted context, heavy moral judgments on them is to ignore the difficult choices required in service of the greater good. Planes within plans. No. Trolley problems within trolley problems. Members of the bars. Bars. I don't think I'm allowed to say it for myself, but I will that one time. To the outsider who can't see the bigger picture, of course, their actions may seem calculating, cruel, cold, immoral, inhumane. But sometimes, in order to heal and to grow stronger, to guide that fledgling sapling to full treehood, you have to trim a few branches.
- [45:33]
A
Indeed.
- [45:34]
B
Is the arborist also a villain now? Prosecution. Huh? Anyway, he said in Tree sympathizer.
- [45:41]
A
Prosecution.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah, you hate tree. Bold stance. Now, the Sisterhood has always been committed, above all else, to do the greater good. The legendary Bashar Miles Tag himself, some would say the Goat. His alternative title, the Goat.
- [45:56]
A
We certainly. The defense would certainly say the goat.
- [45:58]
B
You say LeBron James. I'm like, who? Bashar Miles Tag. Like, I don't know. I don't know that guy. Does he throw balls? I guess so. Here's Miles Tag's quote that we'd like to enter into evidence today. Quote, Whatever else you might say about the Sisterhood, they displayed an admirable consistency of purpose. End quote. And this is where we'd like to bring it back to the God Emperor himself. The prosecution rightfully holds the God Emperor's opinion above all others. Leto Atreides knows more than just about anyone else has ever known in all of history.
- [46:37]
A
Indeed.
- [46:38]
B
So what did he decide to do when he had control of the entire universe? He could have done anything. In fact, we see that he outlawed and basically drove to the brink of extinction. Mentat training. He does this. What did he do at the Bene Gesserit? Did he, in his infinite wisdom, decide to get rid of the villain, to get rid of the antagonist, as the prosecution would have us believe? In fact, no, he did not. He chose not to destroy the Bene Gesserit because in them he saw a potential ally. Fellow stewards of humanity with noble purpose, who could help him maintain the golden path. So, dear members of the jury, think of the many factions that are no longer with us today. The Ixians, the Guild, the Fish Speakers. If they are around, they are scattered. They are diminished. Who is still here? The Bene Gesserit, as the God Emperor himself willed.
- [47:41]
A
And as the prosecution so rightfully stated in their case. We mustn't question the God Emperor.
- [47:48]
B
We daren't.
- [47:48]
A
The all knowing, all seeing. We daren't.
- [47:51]
B
It's the first time I've ever written the word daren't. It was a thrill when the grammar check was like, that's right. And I was like, God, that's wonderful news.
- [48:05]
A
Now, as we wrap up our defense, consider how easy it is to speak of lofty goals, dear jury. Goals like freedom, personal agency, diversity. But the truth of the matter is that these luxuries only exist because the Sisterhood has created the stable conditions of for them to flourish. We can look at the very same message from the God Emperor to Odrade that the prosecution shared in their case. Leto, too, knew the Sisterhood would regain power after his demise, he chose, as you stated, dear colleague, not to destroy them. And he left them breadcrumbs that would lead them to heretical thinking. A necessary paradigm shift within the Sisterhood that ensures not only their survival as an institution, but humanity's survival in the face of danger from the scattering. This is further proof that the Sisterhood continues to be adaptable and committed to their cause of serving the greater good. The Bene Gesserit don't eliminate choice. In fact, they ensure that humanity can survive long enough to make meaningful choices.
- [49:28]
B
Bars. Bars.
- [49:29]
A
Can any other group or person in all of human history claim to have done the same? And on that, the defense rests.
- [49:43]
B
The cocaine wore off.
- [49:44]
A
The come down from the cocaine is like.
- [49:50]
B
Well, I think the time has come. At first, the prosecutors, and then, after a quick outfit change, we appeared to be the defense. But actually, this whole time, the whole time, we've been the judges. So, Honorable Judge Abu, and also me presiding. We've got our gavels. Do you have a gavel? I don't really have. I have an Anker multi port adapter. It might kind of work. No.
- [50:21]
A
I do not have a gavel like object in the studio.
- [50:24]
B
No, I don't either. But we've got spiritual gavels. Let's talk verdicts. Let's talk sentencing. Normally, we would pass this. We've been referring to the jury of their peers, who don't get to actually have any say in this, because as it turns out, you and I are the only two here. While we're recording. Recording. But I'd like to pass it to you, Abu. What is your verdict? The Bene Gesserit all. You know, trillion of them are sitting there waiting to hear your words.
- [50:51]
A
Yeah.
- [50:52]
B
Are they the villains of Dune?
- [50:54]
A
You know what? I'm gonna declare the Sisterhood guilty of crimes against humanity.
- [51:00]
B
Guilty, my God.
- [51:01]
A
Of being villainous and perhaps one of the greatest dangers to humanity's survival. Look, I believe that not all ends justify all means. And based on that statement alone, I fundamentally disagree with the Sisterhood's entire mo. Sure, they have always claimed that their reprehensible actions, eugenics, murder, subterfuge, politics being.
- [51:31]
B
Kind of shitty to people sometimes, throwing.
- [51:33]
A
Poison being kind of mean.
- [51:35]
B
That's not cool.
- [51:37]
A
Rude. The Sisterhood has claimed that these actions have always been necessary in service of some far flung greater good that only they can see. And personally, whenever someone makes claims like that, whenever someone makes claims that there is a truth that only they can see and that only they can lead you to my warning signals. Go up.
- [51:59]
B
I get the ick.
- [52:00]
A
Huge red flags. I get the ick. Legally speaking, I think the sisterhood is consumed by their dogma. They're blinded by their millennia of decisions and other memory, continuing to reinforce their own worldview rather than question it. And I do think that in their arrogance, they remained blind to the necessity of the Golden Path and thus nearly threw humanity into chaos by killing the God Emperor. I mean, certainly they didn't get close because everyone knew you had the spice essence in your pocket.
- [52:34]
B
It's like a very spice essence vial shaped bulge in your ropes.
- [52:38]
A
There is that spice essence that you're going to try to kill me with or.
- [52:42]
B
It's kind of funny.
- [52:43]
A
Are you just happy to see me? And so, seriously speaking, I think Leto's message to dread and heretics is a condemnation of the very thing I'm saying is a condemnation of their arrogance and blindness. It's saying if you had opened your eyes, if you had thought heretically before you needed me to tell you, you would have seen the necessity of my Golden Path and you would have would not have been so antagonistic toward me.
- [53:08]
B
Yeah.
- [53:08]
A
Up until that point, up until Darwy o' draid becomes Mother Superior, I think the Bene Gesserit have been villainous. And it requires a total change in leadership and outlook to right that ship. I think their mistakes have cost humanity countless lives and personally speaking, I think unnecessary lives. And while their actions may have created some level of stability within the Empire, particularly after the Butlerian Jihad, I think it comes at too high a cost. I think it comes at the cost of removing agency from people and entire cultures across the Imperium. And that to me is a line too far. We've crossed into territory that I think is indefensible and into territory where I don't think the ends that apparently only you can see justify your actions here. And so I'm going to declare them guilty. With the caveat that I think under darwio draid's leadership there is a change within the sisterhood, a necessary change.
- [54:14]
B
Yeah.
- [54:15]
A
What about you? What's your final verdict on the Sisterhood?
- [54:18]
B
Well, an interesting day in the courthouse of Gom Jabbar. We have a split decision. Well, well, well. But also with heavy caveats. All that cocaine's really paying off. I'm thinking a million miles a second. I hereby rule the Bene Gesserit not guilty of the grander charges of antagonism to the survival of humanity. I acknowledge they are good intentions. But before the defense celebrates too much I'm looking at you, you handsome bastards. I'm assigning three millennia of community service as a punishment for these smaller misdemeanors that have been illuminated today. And I will go into detail. Guiding evolution. Bene Gesserit is one thing, but preventing those with, as you call them, undesirable traits from having children is a step too far. When we have rock solid evidence that there are Bene Gesserit members. People within the fold who want to have children, presumably. Or maybe they. It's something they might want. And you say you're not allowed to pass on your genetics. That's a step too far. Allow them to excommunicate from the Bene Gesserit. Allow them to have children on their own terms with their own people, the good old fashioned way. I do not believe you should be able to say anyone does not have the right to have children. Now, we are also going to, as a part of this court decision, we are going to assign a third party watchdog group to perform an audit of the Bene Gesserit operational documents.
- [55:58]
A
Okay.
- [55:58]
B
We are in particular concerned that the Bene Gesserit rule book explicitly says to kill people in certain circumstances. And we just want to audit those instances. Abomination. Kill them. We're going to take a look at that. If kill the fucking thing is the official protocol, we're reexamining. I'm also requiring the Bene Gesserit to establish a formal position. This is actually. I'm going to restructure the Bene Gesserit a little bit. I believe the Reverend Mother Superior can remain in charge, but must have a number two in command, referred to as the heretic, who shares the goals and the ideals, but promises to voice and explore the less dogmatic paths the Bene Gesserit should always be considering, as exemplified by everyone's favorite. I'm pretty confident in saying this, Schwann, you, number one girl, the trucker we all trust, believes in the Bene Gesserit mission, but voices her dissent. We need someone like that, high up in the order who's given the respect they deserve. And finally, throwing poison at the God Emperor Leto Atreides was, in this court's opinion, guilty of being pretty dang whack. What are you doing? That is funny in hindsight, but that's fucking goofy. What do you. Sorry, you forgot your clown.
- [57:25]
A
How are you acting out so much like what's happening?
- [57:28]
B
Cringe Cringe Compilation. It's just you doing that for 10 hours to relax and study to on YouTube. With lo fi beats. Embarrassing.
- [57:39]
A
Not very sigma of you.
- [57:41]
B
That's very. It's very beta. What's the bad one? Beta? Yeah, something I'm not sure. It's not alpha. It's not mewing. Skibidi. Rizzler. So that's our. That's our courthouse drama.
- [58:00]
A
There it is, folks. Wow, that was fun.
- [58:03]
B
That is fun.
- [58:04]
A
I found myself getting riled up at some point, so I was like, fuck the prosecution. My God, how dare they? Except I'm the prosecution. It was crazy.
- [58:13]
B
What a ride. What a ride that was.
- [58:15]
A
What a ride.
- [58:16]
B
It's kind of fun to play pretend a little bit. Maybe we should send this episode to legal eagle on YouTube and see what he thinks about our terrible impersonation of lawyers.
- [58:28]
A
Yeah, and look, we've. We've present presented two judgments of the Bene Gesserit, but I am very curious, genuinely, what the jury, AKA our listeners, think. You know, I do think we've presented, like, two strong arguments for both sides here. Obviously, there's a nuance, and it's kind of a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. Bingo card market. But I am curious which side. Dear listener, you fall in this argument. You know, when you look at the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, what do you see? Do you see a group that has caused more harm than good, that has succumbed to its arrogance? Or do you see a group that is necessary for the survival of humanity, the type of group that we perhaps don't want, but need?
- [59:13]
B
Yeah, very curious again, because the court came to a split decision, I think it's your emails that will be the tiebreaker.
- [59:20]
A
That's true. You got a tie break.
- [59:22]
B
Trillions of people waiting to find out the verdict. After you write to us and tell us what you think.
- [59:27]
A
That's right.
- [59:28]
B
Now, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of a few ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. And the two best ways, as always, One is to become a patron and to get yourself some dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. And again, keep your eye out. Working on some new merch. In fact, I had an idea yesterday when I was on a bike and I'm excited to tell Abu about it when we're not recording.
- [59:57]
A
It's a secret.
- [59:59]
B
It's a secret.
- [60:02]
A
And, folks, we'd love to hear from you. Email us gomjabbarpodcastmail.com that's the email address. Send us your thoughts. Send us your questions, send us cute pictures of your pets and definitely send us your verdict on the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. On which side of the line do they fall for you? We'd love to hear. And how much cocaine did you have to do to get to that verdict?
- [60:28]
B
Also, do you like this kind of like, weird. We've had people ask us for more, like in depth thematic discussions and stuff, and we can have those in like a pretty serious, scholarly way. But does this land? Do you like this? This kind of energy, this fun back and forth? I don't know. I'm curious. I'm curious what you all think.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah.
- [60:47]
B
Because I know our deep dives and thematic discussions are typically pretty popular, but I wonder if this framing turns off the people who are super into that. Let us know. Let us know what you think. Yeah, I had a lot of fun with today's episode. Probably more fun that I would have if we were really like, digging into things, but, you know, open to feedback and we're always happy to adjust, unlike the Benny Je. Okay, I shouldn't. I'm not a prosecutor anymore.
- [61:12]
A
All right, prosecution. So handsome and so wrong.
- [61:19]
B
So dumb. But good looking.
- [61:44]
A
Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Loreparty Podcast Network on loraparty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.
- [62:20]
B
New season, new chaos in college football.
- [62:23]
A
Big stage, big opportunity.
- [62:25]
B
This Labor Day weekend. The wildness lives on ABC, ESPN and the AllNew ESPN app. What a way to start. Featuring top 10 teams like Clemson, Notre Dame, Alabama and LSU. And Bill Belichick's debut at North Carolina. It's so special. These teams collide. Don't miss a lineup filled with electric matchups. Welcome back to College Football Kickoff Week presented by Modelo Labor Day weekend on ESPN and abc.
- [62:48]
A
Also available to stream on the all new ESPN app.