Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 10)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club – Chapterhouse Dune (Part 10) Episode Date: April 17, 2026 | Hosts: Leo & Abu (Lore Party Media)

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Episode Overview

In this dense and deeply philosophical installment of the Gom Jabbar Book Club, Leo and Abu continue their close analysis of Frank Herbert’s Chapterhouse: Dune, covering chapters 28–30. This section is thick with pivotal plot turns—new spice discoveries, pivotal power shifts, and the momentous (and hilarious) decision to “cyborg” a beloved character. Throughout, the hosts explore Herbert’s recurring themes of persistence, the nature of history, the limitations and strengths of the Bene Gesserit, and the deep, sometimes contradictory value of art—linking Herbert’s musings to real-world cultural debates and personal insights.

The episode masterfully balances plot summary, character studies, high-level philosophical takeaways, and the duo’s signature blend of reverence and irreverence. Bookmark it as essential listening for Dune scholars and fans alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Persistence and Human Experience Over History

• Opening Reflection: Leo and Abu riff on Herbert’s recurring idea that everyday persistence—the podcaster, the parent at home—matters more than the heroes of war history (00:00–00:50).

  “We’re the ones that fucking matter. We’re the heroes.” – Leo (00:50)

• Theme: History tends to glorify conflict but often obscures the subtler, ongoing acts of human endurance.

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Chapter Summaries & Literary Analysis

CHAPTER 28 (05:23–18:23)

• Odrade’s Journey: Odrade, embracing her "productivity influencer" routine, maneuvers through the spreading sands of Chapterhouse to meet Shiana.
• Literary Parallels: The expanding desert is likened to the Honored Matres—primordial, dangerous, yet presenting the only path forward for the Bene Gesserit (07:23).
• Poignant Observation:

  “She did not look back at growing things... but kept her attention focused outward to the horizon.” – Read from Herbert, analyzed by Leo (06:48)

• Impactful Event: News arrives that Reverend Mothers have been abducted—the Honored Matres have taken the bait (10:22).
• Character Dynamics: Odrade is delighted—her plan is in motion. FaceTime-style council decisions are made: Duncan gains access to archives; acolyte promoted to Reverend Mother (11:00–11:40).
• Shiana’s Secret: It’s revealed (16:53) that Shiana and Duncan have unlocked the no-ship’s flight systems—their “getaway car”—and are considering “sexually imprinting” the young Teg as a less cruel path to awakening him.

CHAPTER 29 (18:23–32:41)

• Murbella & Duncan’s Relationship: The couple’s nighttime dialogue highlights that their relationship is now built on more than sexual subjugation.

  “Like a damned old married couple, funny stories in the middle of the night...” – Duncan (19:49)

• Training & Trauma: Murbella’s nightmares, triggered by Zensunni-trauma training, are unpacked under Duncan’s reassurance. She’s wary of Bene Gesserit language as control (20:39).

• Love & Loss: Both fear losing each other as Murbella approaches “the Agony” (the trial to become a Reverend Mother). This becomes the episode's emotional core.

• History and Cynicism: The hosts discuss Herbert’s arguments about the unreliability of history—and the larger cultural impulse toward stories of conflict.

  “Historians always focus on, oh, there’s this war, this battle… The invisible, beautiful little moments of people just living and making art... That is only a piece of the puzzle.” – Leo (24:58)

• Personal Histories: Murbella recounts her tragic childhood kidnapping by the Honored Matres (27:53).

• Freedom as Humanity:

  “Far more important to find that place in herself where freedom lived. It was a place where something always listened.” – Herbert, discussed as the “Sea Child” essence (32:41)

CHAPTER 30 (35:13–46:42)

• Time Skip: Months pass; Shiana finally fills Tamerlane’s place. Murbella is about to give birth, but many issues have not progressed.

• Negotiations With Scytale: Odrade and the other Reverend Mothers pile the pressure on the last Tleilaxu Master.

• Major Turning Point:

  • Sandworms are sighted on Chapterhouse for the first time! Shiana exhibits control over them—just as on Arrakis (39:37).
  • Balanda declares:

    “You have lost a bargaining chip, Master Scytale. We have our spice at last.” (40:17)

• Cultural Satire & Celebration: The hosts gleefully narrate the arrival of the worms and how Shiana, “holding a worm like a baby,” stuns the council.

• Cyborg Him: In a moment that becomes an instant meme, Odrade orders the cyborging of the mortally wounded, beloved driver Clareby (43:42–44:13):

  “Cyborg him.” – Odrade (43:42)

• Meaning: This desperately stretching of traditions for mere survival is a sobering illustration of the Sisterhood’s new vulnerability.

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In-Depth Takeaway: The Nature of Art (55:51–85:04)

A powerful, wide-ranging discussion inspired by Odrade’s meditations on Shiana’s artwork.

• Odrade’s Perspective: She ponders,

  “Nature makes no bad art. It was a statement too glib to accept. What do we mean by nature?” (57:20)

• Art as reassurance: “Much of what we think of as art caters to desires for reassurance. Don’t offend me. I know what I can accept.”

• Human Standards: The difference between nature’s creations and human filtering—are “ugly” or “purposeless” things less “art” than others?

• Meta-Philosophy: The hosts link these meditations to AI art, the pop music industry, and the tension between mechanical perfection and human imperfection (77:48–78:19).

  “Maybe the messiness is what is now definable as art... and the over perfection, the sheen of machinery, becomes repellent to our senses.” – Abu (78:19)

• Connection, Not Perfection: Citing an epigraph from Odrade:

  “The best art imitates life in a compelling way. If it imitates a dream, it must be a dream of life. Otherwise, there is no place where we can connect. Our plugs don’t fit.” (67:43)

• Bene Gesserit Reflection: Shiana’s simple drawing reminds Odrade of what the Sisterhood has lost—art for its own sake, and humanity’s unplanned, chaotic creativity.

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Spice Morsels (86:16–97:29)

Morsel 1: Grapes, Wine, and Bene Gesserit Agriculture (86:16)

• “Roots gone down to hell”: An exploration of Biblical and mythological references found in Chapterhouse Dune’s vineyard passages.
• Vinifera: Real-world grape knowledge from Frank’s own pocket vintage guide! (90:54)
• Commentary: The Bene Gesserit take Old World staples and “improve” them—reflecting both human tradition and manipulation.

Morsel 2: The History of “Cyborg” (92:47)

• Origin: Coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline in the context of adapting humans for space.
• First Science Fiction Use: The Eyes of Heisenberg (1966) by Frank Herbert.
• Definitions Sorted: Cyborg vs. android vs. biorobot—don’t mix them up!
• Cultural Meme: The hosts tease each other (and listeners) to never misuse these terms in their Discord!

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She’s a true image of human persistence.” – Leo (00:27)
• “Triple C, wormy boy, Leto on his cart thick.” – Leo, on the assigned reading (01:46)
• “I just want to be dogpiled by our Kwisatz Haderach-level patrons in bed in a nonsexual way.” – Abu (02:53)
• “She pushes the button, she leans forward: ‘Cyborg him.’ We will not make machine in the image of a man, but you will make a verb out of the word cyborg.” – Leo (43:42)
• “If you misuse Android, we're kicking you out of the Discord, all right?” – Abu (97:29)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Persistence & Opening Theme: 00:00–00:50
• Chapter 28 Recap & Art Takeaway Seeded: 05:23–18:23
• Revelation about No-Ship: 17:34–18:17
• Murbella & Duncan Relationship Dialogues: 18:23–32:41
• Freedom & Humanity Quote (“Sea Child”): 32:41
• Shift in Power, Sandworm Discovery: 35:13–40:17
• “Cyborg Him!” Moment: 43:42
• In-Depth Takeaway on Art: 55:51–85:04
• Grapes, Wine, Vinifera Morsel: 86:16–92:35
• History of Cyborg & Definitions: 92:47–97:29

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Closing Reflections

The hosts recognize their own tendencies (Leo the maximalist, Abu the editor) as part of Gom Jabbar’s unique blend, echoing Herbert’s belief in the necessity of both constraint and chaos.

“Some of our best, weirdest conversations that are really meaty and fun were just those little tangents.” – Leo (53:43)

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For the Next Episode

Assigned Reading: Chapters 31–33 (or up to “You have 90 standard days to get ready. She said, not one day more.”)

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Final Notes

• Listener Engagement: Share your favorite portmanteau or “noun-to-verb” transformations, inspired by “cyborg him!”
• Support & Contact: Patreon, merch, and feedback details provided (99:09).
• Sign-Off: “Cyborg Him.” – new classic Gom Jabbar outro (100:56).

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For Dune devotees, this episode brings both essential plot interpretation and a spirited, personal exploration of the culture and philosophy at the heart of Herbert’s epic. Whether you love new sandworms, deep dives on art, or just want to share in the podcasters’ camaraderie, this Book Club is not to be missed.

Transcript

[A]

Histories focus on confrontations. Some truth in that, but it hides more persistent things that go on in spite of upheavals.

[B]

Persistent things.

[A]

What history touches. The podcaster in the studio recording her analysis of Dune while her husband is off somewhere, most likely a conscript carrying a weapon.

[B]

Why is that persistent and more important than her?

[A]

Babies at home need food. Man's away on this perennial madness. Someone has to do the podcasting. She's a true image of human persistence.

[B]

That's right. Y' all hear that? You're listening to a true image of human persistence right now. According to Frank Herbert.

[A]

We're the ones that fucking matter. That's what we have to say about it. We're the heroes. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[B]

My name's Abu.

[A]

Oh. And today on the show, we are continuing our page by page breakdown of Dune. Chapter house or Chapter House Dune. We are like 10 episodes into this and I still don't know the order of those words. What a book. We've got a lot to talk about today. Yeah, the assigned chapters were thick. Triple C, wormy boy, Lato on his cart thick. But before we get too far into it, let's get our housekeeping out of the way as usual. This is a book club episode, so there are no spoilers today for any of the books or pages that we've covered thus far. So if you're up to date with the reading that we've assigned you, you are safe to listen to everything today. We won't be going beyond the assigned reading.

[B]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. That's Daniel Dion, Seth Redding, Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahanram, and Roger Young. Folks, if I woke up in the night from a terrifying dream induced by Balanda's training.

[A]

Typical. Yeah.

[B]

I would want all five of you there with me to comfort me in

[A]

the bed, their arms just across your lap.

[B]

Wrap your arms around me. Legs across my lap.

[A]

Big old pile of patrons.

[B]

That's right. That's right. I just want to be dogpiled by our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons in bed in a non sexual way.

[A]

Non sexual. All romantic.

[B]

It's a cute moment because I had a nightmare.

[A]

They all in unison go, are we going to have sex. And you go, not right now. And they all in unison go, okay, back to bed. Back to sleep.

[B]

That is a long witch way of saying thank you. We are grateful from the bottom of our hearts for your support. And of course, our thank yous and our gratitude extend to all of our patrons at every level who truly help make this show possible. We mean that. If you're curious how much we mean that, listen to the state of the Imperium episode. From the start of the year, we break down literally how the patrons keep the show running.

[A]

The nitty gritty details indeed. And listen, hey, if you are not in a position to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, that's totally a. Okay. Don't forget you can show your support and your appreciation for what we do here at Gom Jabbar with a one time tip. That link is in the show notes and for free you can tell a friend about your favorite Dune podcast. And keep your ear to the ground because we've got exciting things coming the more you support us. Word of mouth. It helps a lot.

[B]

That's right. Okay, housekeeping out of the way. Y' all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We will begin by summarizing the assigned reading.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

Then we'll dive deeper into a takeaway and break down some big ideas. And. And finally, we will wrap up by chomping down on some delicious spice morsels. That's the game plan. So before we get into it, Leo, let's take a quick break. Dear listener, don't go anywhere. When we come back, talking chapter house Dune.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

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[A]

What they did to your family.

[B]

You're lucky to make it out alive.

[A]

Streaming on Peacock.

[B]

These men are going to come after me.

[A]

Taking them out. It's my only chance. Put a bullet in her head from the co creat of Ozark.

[B]

Looks like a family was running drugs.

[A]

Execution style.

[B]

Killing. It's rare for the Keys.

[A]

Any leads on who they might have been running for?

[B]

The cartel killed my family. I'm gonna kill them.

[A]

All of them. MIA Streaming now only on Peacock. Welcome back, everybody. Oh I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's kick this episode off with chapter 28, which is with oh Jade. Now, she has just finished her productivity influencer routine. In the morning, she's done her ice bath. She has the tape over her mouth. She's been morning journaling, positivity training, all of that. And they're about to complete their final leg of the journey to the desert to meet Shiana. Now the growing desert is providing some challenges for their plan. She opted for ground car transport, but the encroaching sands are making that quite difficult. So instead they're going to use ornithopters. The landscape has been decimated by the creeping sands. A fun kind of callback to the origins of this whole book series. They stopped the moving sands. This inspiration for Dune. It's kind of cool. And along the way, spurned by a question from a communications clerk, o' Draid hops onto her little soapbox and gives her entourage a mini TED talk on over reliance on other memory without experience, like lived experience to match. Again, something we've talked about quite a bit in this book so far and something that Frank continues to drive home. They have this great power of other memory, but you don't want to be overly reliant on it. Now o' Draid signals to everyone, hey, stay back for a second, I'm going to climb this sandhill. And we get this poignant moment of observation as she looks out on the growing sands on the desert that's growing on chapter house. Quote. She did not look back at growing things making their last desperate struggle against invading dunes, but kept her attention focused outward to the horizon. There was the boundary desert dwellers watched anything moving in that dry expanse was potentially dangerous. End quote. Really cool.

[B]

Powerful.

[A]

I was struck by this for two reasons. One, I think it's just like beautiful writing. I like the, this reflection on life giving its final kind of thrust as the planet succumbs to the desert. But I also think that a lot of this can be said about this section of the old Imperium, right? The Old Imperium is being invaded by forces from the scattering. The honored Matre are like a force of nature. They are primordial. They are in some ways very primitive, but in other ways in touch with their kind of animal nature. They are like the creeping dunes sweeping into the balmy pastures of familiar planets. I really appreciated that kind of parallel and I think that it's especially poignant because, oh, Draid is so constantly thinking about that axe wielding person chasing her down that Narrow rope. And here's another metaphor for it, this moment where you're looking out on the desert. But I also wanted to point out this idea of anything moving in that dry expanse was potentially dangerous. I think without context, that could sound fully prohibitive. Like you really want to avoid it, because danger. Danger is bad, obviously. Right, Right. But I think the kind of thing that is becoming clear to all of us is that that danger comes alongside the potential for salvation. And avoiding all danger at all costs is what the Bene Gesserit have kind of been doing for 10,000 years, 30,000 years, and that is leading to their extinction. And so there is something about greeting the unknown tomorrow and greeting that unknown dangerous horizon and saying out there is potential danger, but is also a path forward and is the Golden Path.

[B]

I think that's a spot on read of this passage because it is notable that the Mother Superior Odrade does not look back. She only looks forward. She looks at what needs to be done. She faces the oncoming desert, whatever that may bring. Right. The unknown future, not only for Chapterhouse, but on a larger scale of this book, for the Bene Gesserit, for all of humanity. And that is the great unknown that the Bene Gesserit have turned their backs to for millennia. Many millennia. And I think you're absolutely spot on with your interpretation that it is poignant and powerful for a drake to stand here and look out on it without turning her back.

[A]

This is the woman. The woman who doesn't turn back is the woman who ordered the ocean to be gone. Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

She's the one who's looking forward and going, I'm making the hard decisions that take us to tomorrow. And not reveling in the sort of perfect little paradise we've cultivated on this planet.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We can get rid of the paradise for the sake of tomorrow. It's very cool. I like it. So, as they wait for the ornithopters, Odrade's introspection on the nature of continuity is interrupted by shocking news. Quote, there has been a messenger from Buzel. Oh. Strangers came and took all of the Reverend Mothers away.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

End quote. Crazy.

[B]

The Douche.

[A]

The two. She's gone. She's been taken along with her Reverend Mother, Sister and o'. Draid. Not worried. She's giddy. She's like. Oh, fuck. Yes. The Honored Matre. They took her bait.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Her plan is proceeding on pace. Of course, this means the abducted Reverend Mothers are in great peril. But. But, hey, she's delighted. It means that there's movement. Something's happening. That's great. So she pulls up a hurried FaceTime call with Balanda. Yeah. And also quickly realizes what we saw in the last chapter with Balanda, that she's done a full 180 on Duncan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Odrade's going, you seem like you kind of are chill with Duncan now. And Belinda's like, yeah, you fucking. You knew I would be. So she talks to Balanda and. And during their brief call, they agree that the messenger acolyte that the Tuj sent should be immediately promoted to a Reverend Mother, and that also Duncan should be given full access to the archives. Basically, his limitations to data should be lifted.

[B]

Right. Take off the parental controls. Let him go to pornhub.com guided access

[A]

off any website, not even on private browsing. His history. He's not afraid.

[B]

No. I mean, they're already watching him fuck, like, multiple times a day, every day with the comm eyes. So it's like, what is there to hide for Duncan Idaho.

[A]

Yeah, he and. He and Merbella, they're. They're looking together. They got a shared interest. It's great. Now, briefly, Tammalan also makes it known that she's aware that Shiana's basically going to be given her spot. Odrade promises her, listen, I'm not going to do it unless it's the right pick. And Tamlin's like, whatever, I'm your girl. Like, whatever you want. And it's cool. Tamalaine is really showing herself in these chapters, particularly to be Odrade's friend and ally. Ride or die.

[B]

Yeah, we get a lot of Balanda in this book and we get very little Tamerlane outside of being in the background and slightly annoying Odrade sometimes. But I think it's in today's chapters where Tammalaine really shines and proves why she is on the inner council of the Mother Superior.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And she's more of an advocate for Odrade than I expected, which is kind of nice to see. Yeah. Because I like. Oh, Jade, I'm biased. Well, anyway, the thopters arrive. They are taken to the Desert Watch Center. And as Odrade waits for Shiana in her chambers, she observes artwork that Shiana's been kind of hanging around her personal chambers. This is mostly a prefabricated living space, but it's decorated with artwork that Shiana's been doing. And Odrade's thoughts are whirling around the nature of art and nature and where we draw those lines. Pun fully intended. Before Shiana joins her basically in her chamber. Now, you might expect that we, the hosts of Gom Jabbar and me, one of the hosts who has a degree in art, it's going great, thanks for asking. Might have some thoughts about all of this art shit. And you are correct. That's going to be our takeaway today. So stay tuned for that. We're going to talk a little bit about art and philosophy. But talking about their meeting, Shiana and Odrade, we get a bit of both women's perspectives throughout this exchange. Odrade knows Shiana is hiding something. And of course Shiana is hiding something and is using her truth and kind of selective truths to divert Odrade's questions. Kind of trying to play this mental jiu jitsu to avoid fully being discovered. She's like, she knows Odrade is a formidable foe in this intellectual sparring match. She's being very, very cautious and for good reason.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Now she is called away from their tense conversation by Team 8, who've just returned from the desert. I love the tone of her voice. Says volumes like, fucking Team 8 always wants my attention. God damn it.

[B]

This is not Seal Team 8. To be clear, you know, this is. This is not who you send to kill bin Laden. These. I want, like, a little side nolla about teammate and their bumbling adventures in the desert on Earth.

[A]

Sh. Hey, Shanna, we didn't find anything. Again, Shiana. Breaking news. Shiana, we didn't find anything. We saw Shiana. Shiana. Shiana. I saw a cactus. Does that. Is that something? It's not some. Sh, sh. Quickly. She's like, God damn it. But this time, not a false call. Boy who cried wolf. Not this time.

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Team eight found a spice mass. There's spice spices on Chapter House. Fucking unbelievable news. And although there are no sightings of worms yet, historically on Arrakis, every time there was a spice mass, there would be worms every time. Anyone playing Dune Awakening right now knows you got like five minutes max, you know, get the spice, get out. So no one's seen any worms yet, but, man, this is a huge step forward. And ultimately, them trying to get a source of spice has been like, kind of the fucking point for a long time now. Especially since Dune was glassed by the honored matre. Now, in the shadow of this news, Odrade springs her job offer on Shiana. Shiana's like, oh, my God, there's been a spice mass. And Odrade's like, sick. You're replacing Tomoene. And she's like, fucking what? On the council? I thought you were building a religion. Like, didn't you have plans within plans? And Odrade's like, yeah, but also, you're going to be on council. You're going to replace Tamlene. She's old as hell. Look at her. Tamline's like, it's great, great conversation. Now Shiana is taken aback. And in that vulnerable moment, Odrade probes again. Quote, tell me, Shiana, what really interests you these days? End quote. A question with the weight of humanity on it. And Shiana gets away with a partial truth. She's like, you know, sex, love, fucking love, having sex with men like Trebo. You saw him basking in the sunlight. Hot young man. And Odrade seems to accept this and departs. We'll see in a later chapter. She's still very suspicious and she knows Shiona's still hiding something, but she leaves it at that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Now the chapter ends and we get to see what Shiana is actually hiding. And this is nuts.

[B]

This is crazy.

[A]

First, we get her backup excuse, what she would have said if Odrade had pressed her further, that she and Duncan are discussing sexually imprinting Teg, the child, the nine year old child Shiana is. Is talking about sexually imprinting Tag. Because that would be less cruel and less pain than the kind of traditional way that they know where you push someone's meant, like psyche to a breaking point that seems unnecessarily cruel. And clearly, Mirbella, when she attempted to imprint Duncan, awoke in Duncan's memories. They're thinking maybe the same can be done for Teg.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's like the backup excuse. The more incredible reveal is that Shiana, along with Duncan, have figured out a way to reactivate the no ship's flight systems.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And deactivate the various traps that Balanda has set on the ship that would prevent it from leaving.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

They have a getaway car.

[B]

They do.

[A]

Or they at least know how to arm the getaway car. I like this because we got little clues of Duncan looking at the no ship schematics a couple of times in previous chapters and him, like, quickly hiding it and being like, yeah, what do you want, Blonda? And now we kind of get a sense of like, oh, that's what they've been doing this whole time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is studying the build of the ship and understanding where the traps are. Very fun. And that is the end of chapter 28.

[B]

Okay, moving on to chapter 29. In this chapter, we join Mirbella and Duncan in the middle of the night. No, they're not having sex. They're sleeping. Get your mind out of the gutter. But also, that makes sense that you would assume that they are doing that a lot.

[A]

A lot. Yeah.

[B]

Mirbella awakens from a terrible nightmare that she's having, thanks to her recent training with Balanda. She wakes up clearly in a panic, and her fear, weirdly enough, turns into hysterical laughter, which jogs Duncan motherfucking Idaho awakes, who was sleeping right next to her.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this leads to a really genuinely touching conversation between the two of them that reveals to us once again that there is love here. It isn't just pure animalistic sexual attraction or honored madre sexual subjugation. Going both ways. There seems to be real deal feelings that have maybe built up over the last decade. These two have been trapped together.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, early on in their relationship, there was almost an animosity where Mirbella's going, fuck you for imprisoning me in this sexual binding. But now they're like, I mean, it's sweet. It's like, really? I can tell Frank is writing from experience with his past, you know, with Beverly and this, like, the. The dialogue felt very coupley for me.

[B]

It's very couple. Yeah. I mean, Duncan at one point literally says, quote, like a damned old married couple, funny stories in the middle of the night, end quote. He's like, oh, you're waking me up. And now we're just like, chatting in the middle of the night. Like, what, are we married or something?

[A]

We only have four children together.

[B]

Yeah, right. For real. So Mirbella continues to sort of tell him about the nightmares that she's having. And she describes the experience and he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an old Zensuni technique that rids trainees of their trauma and unconscious responses. It's like a classic thing. I went through it myself. Don't worry about it. And Mirbella, you know, continues to worry about it. She's got a deep distrust for Bene Gesserit methods, especially ones that use language as a means of control, AKA the voice.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this is where Duncan reminds her, though, that they'll never trust you into the deeper training until you learn this. End quote. Like, this is just part of the steps you need to take and the baggage of your honored matre fears you need to let go of. The honored matres had warned Mirbella, for example, when she was younger, against anything Zensunni related.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

So this is something she's got to overcome and get through in order for the Bene Gesserit to continue her training and fully trust her. Now, as the conversation continues, Duncan sort of is like, what are we doing? We talking?

[A]

We sleeping or we fucking other stuff? We fucking, we fucking.

[B]

And Mirbella's like, no, no, no, we're not doing that last thing. And so Duncan, Duncan immediately takes a deep sigh, rolls over and is like, all right, I'm going back to sleep then.

[A]

Yeah. Half mumbling responses.

[B]

It's like half mumbling responses. Mirabella's like, is this motherfucker falling back asleep while he's talking to me?

[A]

She's shaking him, right?

[B]

But you know, she's persistent. She's like, no, no, I really want to talk to you and get some feelings out. And so, you know, he's like, all right, I'm awake. We're. I guess we're talking then. We're not doing the sleeping or the other thing.

[A]

All right, we'll talk.

[B]

And this discussion is sort of all encompassing at meanders through a bunch of different themes and ideas that at this point I feel like we've hammered home a dozen and a half times. They cover things like Mirebella's Bene Gesserit training. They talk about Teg's awakening, and it's clear that Mirbella has sort of sussed together that Shiana may be involved with some of Duncan's schemes around Teg. Mirbella also reveals that the possibility of seducing Scytale has come up. And it's something that both of them are clearly repulsed by in kind of an old fashioned way again, married couple way. They're like, wait, I don't know that I want you sleeping with anyone else. I know the Bene Gesserit just kind of do that casually and it's part of your training. But like, I'm not comfortable with that. And Mirbela was like, yeah, no, same. I also don't want to do that now. Duncan also touches on again another theme I feel like we've touched on a lot in the course of the last two books. This idea of historians and the cynicism around history and how it doesn't capture the full picture of the truth, quote unquote, or the full picture of human experience. The self important have limited vision because they ride a death reality. Woman and plow are a life reality. Without life reality, there'd be no humankind. My tyrant saw this. The sisters bless him for it, even while they curse him. End quote.

[A]

Yeah, I loved that quote. And I think partially because we also now know When Duncan's awakening to this serial life, one of the things that Frank emphasized with his writing are these countless little life moments. Kicking up your feet at the end of a long day. Shared words with a lover like these little moments, the accumulation of these little moments. Now, as a serial ghola, Duncan has that death moment ingrained in his psyche. So Duncan's kind of in the perfect position to one not only appreciate those myriad life moments, but also to see the sort of cynical reality of dying over and over. And you know, how many rebellions did he attempt to lead against the tyrant?

[B]

Right.

[A]

That he personally led. That he personally failed and accomplished nothing. Duncan is the perfect cynic for military as a solution for things. And I can't help but think about Frank in the late 70s, 80s writing this following the Vietnam War, following like American, the narrative around America's war mongering path. Like that feels very imbued in the text here in a way that I really appreciate that he's talking about. Yeah. The historians are always focusing on, oh, there's this war, this battle. And like, yeah, I kind of get it. You know, again, it is kind of the history of this country, but man, the invisible, beautiful little moments of people just living and making art and like, it's like that is only a piece of the puzzle. It's weird that there aren't like cultural museums that focus on the history of the people and the culture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think I, I kind of feel the cynicism that Duncan has in this moment and I share it and I'm like, I also think it runs parallel to Odrade's appreciation of art and music. Right. Like that These are the moments, the, the moments that people are living and celebrating life rather than living writing that death reality, as he puts it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Constantly conscripted with a weapon, out battling for, you know, new glory or something.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting. I'm a little less cynical and a little less in agreement with Duncan and o' draid and generally Frank here on this like hatred of history. Hatred's too strong a word. This like distrust of history that's been a theme throughout the last two books. But generally speaking, this has probably been around since book three, four, this idea has been seeded because I think the reality is if it bleeds, it leads. Is kind of true. As far as news goes. It's like, what are the stories we're going to tell ourselves? Stories have beginnings, middle and ends, and they contain conflict and they contain resolution. Those are the stories that humanity has passed down across generations. And inevitably those stories will be about the conflicts or the deaths or the heroic moments. And it won't be about, for example, the quieter moments that Duncan is trying to get at here about the single mother plowing the fields to feed her children. That's important. That's an important part of the fabric of humanity, certainly. But it is not necessarily the story that we will tell ourselves as humans or the stories that will be written down. Do I think they're important? Absolutely. But I think to say that you shouldn't rely on what is the stories we do tell because they don't encompass these other things. It's a bit of a closed minded approach to history. And you know, I'm sure Frank would argue with me on that point and say that he's not speaking in absolutes, saying that you should be skeptical of history and not assume this is the all knowing, the complete picture. Right. Which again, I would agree with him on that. But I think there is something to be said for the natural human inclination to tell stories about conflict.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that is the type of species we are. That's what's defined us since day one.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's true also, you look at the myths that we've invented out of nothing, wholesale fabric and we say these gods battled, those titans battled. It's war, it's conflict, it's violence. It's like if we're going to push in a direction, I think pushing the pendulum more toward there is a picture that is not captured by historians. I think that's beneficial to.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

So, yeah, I think Frank's being pretty heavy handed at times in this book. But I do appreciate the perspective for sure.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I do too as well. Certainly. Anyway, returning to this chapter summary. There you go, folks, a little mini takeaway in the middle of that chapter summary. In a particularly shocking moment, Mirbella opens up about her past. This I found incredibly fascinating. I loved this moment. She tells the story about how she was captured as a child by the Honored Madre. And seemingly this is the norm for the Honored Madre. They come in, they subjugate, slash wipeout, slash abduct a population and the ones they want to bring into their fold from that population. Mirbela's parents were killed seemingly in front of her. They were blown up and she was abducted and brought into the Honored Matre fold. She was trained in their methods and their worldview and she has been an Honor Matre ever since she was a little girl.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Duncan points out to Mirbella that It seems like all she's really done is she has traded one set of masters for another. You've left the honored matre, sure. But are you truly free? Because now your masters are just Bene Gesserit, and you're being trained in their ways. You're just being indoctrinated into another system. I don't know that that necessarily means you've escaped anything or that you're actually free as a human being. And it's at this point that Murbella sort of brings up the Agony. Throughout this chapter, there's also, like, a deep sense of sadness where Duncan is realizing truly how far Mirabella has become indoctrinated into the Bene Gesserit fold and how he is losing her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the agony is sort of the final point where he believes, once she undergoes the agony, I will lose her forever. She will then be a Bene Gesserit sister and a Reverend Mother.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Mirbella sort of recognizes this as well. The agony comes up in their conversation, and she tells Duncan, that is when I will know and understand what the Sisterhood is truly up to. But the way she sees it is that's not where I will lose all of my freedom. That is when I will be able to negotiate more strongly. Right now, we're in a position of weakness. We are prisoners to these people.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

But once I'm a Reverend Mother, once I'm fully accepted into their sisterhood, then I will have the weight to throw around and fully negotiate. I don't know that Duncan necessarily sees it that way.

[A]

No. And it's interesting because both of them are thinking, if only they understood. Right. She's going, I want to ask. I want to demand they tell me why they need me. And he's going, be careful. They might actually tell you. You don't get it. You don't know them like I do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He understands Bene Gesserit better than almost anyone in, you know, in history.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Meanwhile, she's going, if only he knew their morality. If only he could see through the veil like I do. And I don't think either are objectively wrong.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[A]

I don't think either are disillusioned, but they're only seeing pieces of the. Of the puzzle, and we'll have to see how it shakes out. But I got Major, Major Paul from Dune Messiah vibes throughout this, of Duncan seeing this, like, no win scenario. The person he loves, that he cannot imagine living without is heading toward this path of no longer being accessible to him, either because the agony kills her or because the agony. She survives the agony and now has other memory and becomes this frozen, cold, distant reverend mother, the way they all are. They're freezing, my sweet Mirbella. Right, Right. They're free. They're. They're. You know, it's so tragic. And. And yet it is also kind of like a path forward, and there's risk there. And the. The temptation for all of these characters who know better to cling to now and to say, I want this forever. I want this status of us being together forever is interesting too. It's, like, deeply human that he wants to have that intimacy forever. Right. And he can't.

[B]

He loves her. In this chapter, they both openly say I love you to each other. And I think ultimately neither of them wants to lose each other. And yet they see two different and somewhat opposing paths forward, and it's. It's tough to reconcile that.

[A]

Yeah, I love you too much. That's my agony. What a Hallmark card. What a charm line. Duncan.

[B]

Motherfucking idol.

[A]

Right to the heart. Duncan. She.

[B]

Dude, it makes sense, you know, Sometimes, like, little bits of Duncan's charm leak through, and you're like, oh, it makes sense why you're, like, such a womanizer. Jesus Christ. If somebody said that to me, I'd be like, yeah, cool, When's our wedding? What the fuck?

[A]

Yeah, I do. I mean. Sorry. I mean, what? Sorry. Fuck. I do. Shit.

[B]

I know. God, what a smooth motherfucker. Okay, the chapter ends. This, I thought, was really powerful, given the conversation about, are you really free? Have you traded one master for another? The chapter ends as Mirbella has this moment, glimpsing what it would mean to awaken, to embrace true freedom. Quote. Far more important to find that place in herself where freedom lived. It was a place where something always listened. End quote. And by God, if that place doesn't sound like Sea Child.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, shit. I. Also, that's actually a great segue to bring up something that someone pointed out in our live chat, that the black plaz, that something kind of that hint of something inside of Shiana that really upset Odrade in the previous chapter could be seen as this kind of, like, void of that nothingness. And what Odrade was hoping Shiana could find inside of herself is something like Sea Child, this human grounding thing, and instead it's void. Instead, it's this upsetting thing. She sees that and she goes, tell me that you didn't sculpt that. And Shanna's like, oh, I did. Just a few days ago. Isn't it great? And Odrade thinks to herself, she's more further gone than I could have thought. You know, it's this kind of fear, this fear response.

[B]

I mean, for me, it's not even that deep. It's just being in touch with your humanity in a way that the sisterhood has trained you to lose touch with. And especially once you've gone through the agony, especially once you have how many billions, millions, trillions of other sisters in your head talking to you all the time?

[A]

True.

[B]

Through other memory, it is easy to get a 30,000 foot view of everything and lose touch with the grounded human experience of actually living and being in touch with sea, child. Being in touch with the sea, being in touch with the love and the emotions that make you human. I think Mirbella is recognizing here, maybe in a way that Duncan is assuming she will lose. Mirbella is recognizing if I hold on to that, if I hold on to my love for Duncan, if I hold on to my humanity, even after the agony, even after everything the sister had trained me to do, that is where I find true freedom. That is where I am not indoctrinated to them. That is where I am embracing who I am fully.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting. A lot to chew on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Our final chapter today jumps forward in time, months. And while some things have changed, others are still frustratingly stagnant. That's the name of the game in this book. On the one hand, Shiana has just been confirmed to replace Tamerlane. It's taken months, folks. Bureaucracy, government moves slowly. But she is now confirmed to replace Tamerlane. Tamerlane, in fact, cast the breaking vote, which is kind of fun. The Touj, her acolyte now, Reverend Mother Fintil.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Nice. She went through the agony and everything. And Murbella, gonna give birth in about eight days. Very exciting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the other hand, it's been months. Still have not seen any wyrm sign. They are still unsure of what Sian is hiding. Still not really sure what her secret is. And there's been no word from the Touj, no word about the honored matre having taken that bait. No idea what's going on. Odrade's thoughts summarize the passing of time. Quote, everything upon which they pinned their hopes lay in terrible suspension. And nightmare hunters crept closer. Tensions accumulated, explosive. End quote.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the reader is like, yeah, yeah, I want something to happen. Come on, come on, Frank. Right now, o' draid is late for her meeting with Scytale and for the rest of the chapter, we see the two spar. This is. This is a very eventful chapter. In some ways, the last Tleilaxu Master is quickly running out of hope that any of his dreams, his plans within plans, will pay out and have any kind of real legs to stand on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Without him, of course, having to give more to the sisterhood he's kind of been hoping. I've given them everything I absolutely had to, and now I can just get. And it's clear to him now that that is not the case. At times, Odrade tries this trick of slipping into the Islamiad, like, holy language of the Tay Laxu. But it's also clear that that trick of softening him only gets so far. It doesn't really do that much for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And back in her office, they really turn up the pressure, Right? Tamelane gives an Oscar award winning performance. So theatrical, standing close behind him, the picture of the, like, ominous Reverend Mother hovering. Fucking awesome. I forgot this fully. They are growing golas of scytale.

[B]

Wild. I mean, it makes sense, but wild.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. They're like, we just want to make sure. So, yeah, we've got backup. You what? We don't want to fucking accidentally kill you or something. Watch yourself, kid. You know, we get more of Scytel's backstory as well.

[B]

He.

[A]

He basically sought out futar protection from the honored Matre. He was betrayed by some of the returned face dancers from the Scattering, and how they fleed to Junction, hoping for Choam or Spacing Guild protection, where they were picked up by the Bene Gesserit. Nevertheless, even with this new information, even with the pressure they've dialed up, even with the holy words of the Islamia, they are still effectively in a stalemate. Until their stalemate fucking explodes with news from Belanda. Say it for the people in the back. We've got worms. Worms. We got worms. Sign. Not only do we have worms sign, you're like, wait, maybe this is just a joke. Maybe this is a ploy. This is plants within plants. No, Shiana enters with a fucking worm. She brings a worm into the office. What an entrance. That's right, the Bene Gesserit officially have sandworms. Thousands of small sandworms turned up at the spice blow. And Balanda makes it very clear what this means for the Tleilaxu master. Quote, you have lost a bargaining chip, Master Scytale. We have our spice at last. End quote. Huge. I love how petty Balanda is. She's so like, nyeh, fuck. You Scytale, double middle fingers before her. Hollow, like disperses so good. God damn. What's more, Shiana demonstrates immediately that she can still control the sandworms. Huge. This little sandworm in the pod. She opens the pod and holds it like a baby in her arms. And it's chill. It's. It's listening to her. It's responding to her. Yeah, it's a big floppy baby. This is huge. This is. Things are finally looking up for the Bene Gesserit. And Odrade uses this moment to really push Scytale with Chapterhouse on its way to becoming a new dune. What are you waiting for, dude? Serve the Prophet. Here's the Prophet. You claim this great belief, right? Here's the Prophet.

[B]

Do you not believe in the Prophet?

[A]

Do you not? The Prophet's listening. Look at the Prophet wiggling around. That's the Prophet. You're going to hurt the Prophet's feelings. Its floppy little feelings.

[B]

It's just a baby.

[A]

It's just a little baby. It's just a baby.

[B]

You're not gonna do what the baby wants.

[A]

Baby Prophet.

[B]

Scytel, you're a.

[A]

That was. That was actually Blonda again.

[B]

Yeah. Opened up the FaceTime again just to say that. Oh, by the way, you.

[A]

Hey, you. Anyway, so he's on the verge of a panic attack. Like, there's something about the idea of a new Dune that really upsets him. And it's clear also that he's like, oh, fuck, I need them still. But they don't need me anymore. They needed me for secrets of the axolotl tanks to make artificial spice. But they don't need me anymore. They've got sandworms. They did it. They seeded a new planet. They did something no one's been able to do ever. They've done it Monumental. And he requests time to think. He's like, I gotta think about this. This is a lot. So he goes off to the NO ship. Now, the Reverend Mothers, they put their heads together. They evaluate and assess the new data they've gathered from this Tleilaxu master and what it means for the Bene Gesserit. In short, they all come together. They realize the creators of the Futars, the team that the Touj was approached by, that she worked with. They hope to control the Bene Gesserit. This is a new player in the game. This is a new hand. Moving pieces. With this new data and this better understanding of the chessboard, things are finally looking up for the Bene Gesserit. Odrade thinks, quote, give us Merbella as a sister and a restored Bashar, then we might have our fighting chance.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

Maybe the first hopeful thing Odraid has said all book.

[A]

Yeah, she sees, you know, she's on this tightrope with the fucking ax wielding person behind her and she sees the distant cliff. She's like, I can see survival. And then, Listener, I hope you're sitting because we have some absolutely devastating news. The best character in the book and maybe all of fiction. Honestly, Clari, my sweet, my dear, the best driver on this goddamn planet was mortally injured.

[B]

What?

[A]

I know. Take a breath. Take a deep breath. We're going to get through this together. He was mortally injured in an ornithopter crash. Dear God, not Claraby. Don't take Claraby from me. The path to saving him is clear. They know how to save him. They can do it. They have the technology, they have the means. They have to make him a cyborg. But this is a complicated call, lots of tensions, making it a loaded decision. This is still a post Butlerian universe and Odrade has to really decide, are we going to pull this really severe emergency lever for driver Claireby? And this culminates in the greatest two words that Odrade has ever or will ever speak.

[B]

I can see this scene in my mind. The cinematic moment, the flourish of the music, the way she says it, the way the camera turns. I can see it.

[A]

She pushes the button, she leans forward, quote, cyborg him. End quote. We will not make machine in the image of a man, but you will make a verb out of the word cyborg. Cyborg. Yes, Cyborg him. Cyborg him. He's the best. And listen, listen, listen, listeners. I know, I know this all seems very dramatic. The camera that Abu is describing, the music, the swell, the orchestration. Hans Zimmerman scored just this one scene, right?

[B]

The piano is on fire.

[A]

And he's still going, he's still playing. The piano is burning as he plays. It's burning his hands. It's obvious you do not yet understand how good of a driver this fucking guy is. Claire B. Clarby is the best. He's the best. If you don't understand, it's because you are wrong. Clareby's the best character.

[B]

Consider this, dear listener. Have you ever been late to anything in your life? Because that would never happen with Clare B.

[A]

Would never happen with Claraby on time. Dropped off in front of the door not a block down the street. Never. Claraby's the best.

[B]

Have you ever not found a parking spot when you desperately needed to. Never leave a parking spot.

[A]

Every single time. Cyborg him. Bring him. Cyborg him. Cyborg him. Clareby. He's the hope of the universe.

[B]

Hilarious.

[A]

The chapter ends on this moment. But I do want to say kind of more seriously that this is another sign of how thinly stretched the Bene Gesserit have become. Truly, Claire B. Is a driver and yet he is mortally wounded. And they go, we have to save him because we don't have other people who can do what he can do. And it's just fucking driving. He's. He's a pilot, but, like, we don't have other pilots. We are down to our last pilot. What are we. What are we going to do? So this is. This is. In some ways it's very fun. Probably the best quote in Dune. Cyborg him is so funny. I'm very. If anybody wants to get matching cyborg him tattoos, let's do it. But I think this is meant to be a sobering moment that kind of dampens the feeling of celebration. We can see our path to success, but holy shit, we are short staffed. And any little mistake is going to really force us to make some hard decisions.

[B]

Yeah. And to turn our backs on thousands and thousands and thousands of years of the status quo. Since the fucking Butlerian jihad, cyborgs have seemingly not existed outside of the occasional lawbreaker here and there and potentially the Ixians doing whatever they want on their planet. But this is a huge decision for the Bene Gesserit to make because it potentially opens the floodgates. How do you un. Cyborg him going forward now? Right.

[A]

Once you cyborg that genie? There's no putting the genie.

[B]

No, there isn't. And how do you convince the next guy who's mortally wounded to not want to get cyborg? He's going to be like, you fucking did it for Clareby. Am I not good enough? I'm suddenly not good enough to get cyborg. Claraby's standing right fucking there. So this is truly an opening of the floodgates. You do not go back. Once you step into a cyborg universe, you do not go back. Interesting set of chapters, I think for me, I will say before we wrap up and transition over to our takeaway, this was a mixed bag of chapters. I think at the risk of sounding like a broken record, if I was Frank's editor, I would say my guy, trim some of this down. You've already made this point like 12 fucking times in this book and another dozen times in the last book. You don't need to say the thing again. And I found myself kind of deeply frustrated on every read of these chapters. And so I think the chapters like this, and in particular Heretics and Chapter House, a big reason why they don't rank higher up on my personal list of favorite Dune stories is because they get a little self indulgent. They get a little too much Frank Herbert self insert, my political or philosophical ideology, and then repeat it a dozen more times over and over again before the plot actually moves forward. The end of chapter 30 is where the plot begins to get back on track and move forward. Right. The worm is here. Shiana's here. The negotiations with Scytale have progressed to a new point. They've been in this stalemate for hundreds of pages now. And so loved the end of chapter 30, loved Cyborg him. I frankly could have actually lost the previous two chapters personally or dramatically cut them down and merged them into one sort of chapter, some sort of edits. So I've expressed this sentiment before. I expressed it back in Heretics. This is nothing new here, but I think, again, I just wanted to call it out. Irregular pacing of these last two books where things seem to really slow down and. And circle the drain for a long, long, long time.

[A]

Yeah, I enjoyed these chapters, but it is also true that the experience of reading them felt like a slog. And it's interesting to have that dichotomy within me because in the first chapter, I really enjoyed Odrade's thoughts about art and I really enjoyed. It's like these are kind of an interesting conversation and the one that we're going to return to for our takeaway that I don't know that I've heard before, and to see where Shiana's at and this, you know, and the spice blow, it's like good stuff happened in that chapter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's true that getting through it was something I had to choose to do. The next chapter, Mirbella and Duncan, was a long chapter. There was a lot going on there. But I also think it's some of Frank's best interpersonal writing. I felt their relationship really come through in their conversation. I even left in the script a note that I think that chapter with them would be an excellent audio adaptation because there's that kind of intimacy between them.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And the fact that, like, she's talking and he's barely listening and she's kind of on her own train of thoughts. It's very naturalistically written and I can see Frank really Injecting humanity into these characters where both of them have their perspectives, their worries, their concerns. They're not seeing the whole of each other's pictures. But I also love a comment that was in our live chat. Nothing is more real than taking 10 years to open up about your trauma to your partner. So funny, but felt very real to me and I loved, you know. And she's telling the story about being captured by the honored matre. And Duncan says he's transported to this moment with her. He's seeing her as a child, hiding from the explosions that are killing her family. It's like, man, that's so visceral. And then, of course, this final chapter ending on Cyborg him is like the greatest chapter in any book ever, because it can clear me best character in all of books. So it is this kind of interesting balance where I'm like, it was exhausting getting through the last few chapters, but I still stand by the fact that I really enjoyed parts of them and got things out of them that were not, I think, in the rest of the book. Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's interesting because you and I, we constantly kind of have this push and pull where you appreciate the like, okay, here. Here's the intention here. Maybe it's not done perfectly, but, like, I still feel it's necessary because X, Y, Z, it speaks to this emotional core, et cetera, et cetera. And I approach a lot of things from like a very zoomed out, like, editor slash producer lens where I'm like, I get that you're trying to do a good thing here. And I even recognize the good thing you're doing here. I just think if we zoom out as a whole picture, as a whole book, it could use a bit of trimming, you know, you could cut to lose some of the good and it'll still be good, you know? And so, like, I think you and I, even in our Gam Jabar work, we always have these push and pulls in our script where you're like, I wrote a. I wrote a ten page thing. And I'm like, that could. That's so good, Leo. That's so good. It could really be a five page thing.

[A]

You know, the number of Leo script pages on the fucking cutting room floor. Dear listeners, you have no idea.

[B]

Could be a whole nother 6 years

[A]

of GOM Jabbar Salvu. Salvu's the reason. But it's also. But that's the reason our conversations are, like, tight and guided. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

As much as we butt heads on it Occasionally, I think it's actually also some of the X factor for us. It's some of our genius, like what makes us able to have the really nitty gritty in depth convo and then also zoom out and be like, but we got to make a good product and show at the end of the day, let's move on. And that balancing act is very difficult to do. And so honestly, I'm talking out here like, I know what the fuck I'm talking about. I've never written a best selling sci fi series, so who the fuck am I to give Frank Herbert notes on how he writes his books?

[A]

But that's also where I think it's very valid to be like, listen, I wanted to stop reading this chapter. I love this book series more than most people love anything. And yet, man, this chapter was a lot to get through. And it's like, that's, that's valid. I think that's valid above everything else. And now you can say, what's the solution to that? And maybe the solution is something that you personally own and you say, okay, me, Leo the reader, I need to do a little bit more work to understand why this chapter is challenging for me. Maybe I'm not looking at it in the right lens. And I think like, I remember playing Last of Us Part two and fucking hating the game devs until I did some of that, like, work. And then I was like, oh, wait, this is a masterpiece. And I think like, that is something that I'm very comfortable doing is kind of a second nature thing. I also will admit I get such imposter syndrome sometimes where I'm like, fuck, I went on such a tangent there and that's definitely going to get cut and blah, blah, blah. But then I have to remind myself it's like, oh, yeah, some of our best, weirdest conversations that are like really like meaty and like, fun were just those little tangents. So absolutely okay. It's ridiculous. Yeah, the studio always cuts my shit. No, it's good because again, I think when you listen to. I can't listen to some podcasts because they're so rambly and son so unfocused. And I think, like, that's 100%. You keep us.

[B]

It's a very, it's a, it's a delicate balancing act for sure. And I think we, we work great as a team is what I'm saying. And I love you so much.

[A]

I love you.

[B]

Okay, we should, we should, we should

[A]

take an ad break.

[B]

We should take an ad break. I gotta wipe some tears.

[A]

I mean, I'm crying because Clareby was hurt. I don't want Claire. Oh well. Those are our chapter summaries. We are going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere when we're back. We're talking about the nature of art. You are not going to want to miss this conversation. We'll be right back. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card with unlimited 2 2% cash back on all eligible purchases, unlimited 5% cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel online and a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business. You'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer

[B]

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Welcome back folks. We're really tempting fate with our takeaway today. This episode is already so long and our takeaway today is about art, maybe our favorite subject to go along on. So buckle the fuck up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep, here we go. For our takeaway, we want to dig deeper and unpack odraige thoughts as she is scanning Shiana's room in the Desert Watch center before Shiana shows up because as usual, Frank Herbert is working on multiple levels here and he's using this relatively short scene to tell us a lot about the Bene Gesserit sisterhood in Universe, but then also out of Universe. He's using the moment to ask some deeply philosophical questions about art itself. So we want to talk about all that and share our own feelings on it and unpack it a bit further together indeed.

[A]

Now the scene begins as Odrade enters Shanna's room and observes this prefabricated space, how it has this personal touch. A black and white line drawing of a sandworm catches her attention. Now o' Draid admires the simplicity of the drawing and what it reveals about her former pupil. Quote admirable restraint and a constant Reminder of why she was here. A deep impression of nature. End quote. Admirable restraint. Something Abu thinks Frank needs more of. Now, this leads o' Draid down this philosophical rabbit hole. Quote, nature makes no bad art. It was a statement too glib to accept. What do we mean by nature? End quote. What do we mean? Indeed.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

And she thinks of the various atrocious things she's seen in nature. Repellent things seemingly without any purpose. Quote, blind worms. Slimy yellow skins. Where was the art in them? Temporary stopping place on evolution's journey elsewhere that is savage, brutal to the blind worms. Justice for the blind worms. They are the end destination. They respond. What do they have but evolutionary pressure? Oh, Draid. Rude.

[B]

So rude.

[A]

Also, you're saying that evolution journeys somewhere. That's your interpretation. You're bringing that to the table. It just is what it is, you know, Like, I think that it's funny. This is kind of the whole point of all of this. But the idea that, like, even the definition of nature is one that is beholden to our language and the way that we engage with it, right? When we talked about farmers, what do farmers do but reshape the natural world for the benefit and for the purpose of humanity, right? What does it mean for something to be good art or bad art? Like, all of this is through a humanistic lens, right? And this is where she wonders, is the deciding factor in all of this human intervention? Oh, is it the humanity that decides whether or not things are good or bad? Is it interfacing with nature? Are the disgusting yet delicious slig meat, slig steaks? Are they art because humans created them? Are they good art because we made them? Are they bad? That's the question. Where does good and bad fall? When we're evaluating the natural world and humanity's input into it, and o' Draid decides that some combinations offend our human senses. These kind of deep impulses that we use to guide ourselves, which leads to this deeply meta thought, clearly written just directly in Frank's voice. Frank's like, get out of here, Odrade.

[B]

O', draid, Charmaine, whatever. I got something to say here.

[A]

Much of what we think of as art caters to desires for reassurance. Don't offend me. I know what I can accept. End quote. Wow.

[B]

There is so much to peel back there, so many layers to just that sequence of thoughts from Ohrade. And I think even more fundamentally, stepping back from even if art is good or bad, I think an even more fundamental question that, oh, Draid is Pondering, Odrade, Frank is pondering on here is how do we define what is art and what isn't art in the first place? Before we even get to the conversation of good, bad, middling, etc.

[A]

Right? You know, people go, oh, a banana tape to the wall is an art. And you go, well, you are talking about it. It's part of it's starting a conversation. You have opinions, you have it. It's questioning the whole fucking nature of why we have these institutions putting shit on walls. It's like, oh, man. And we never got to like simple answers. But that's kind of the answer is that there is no simple definition of. And that's kind of the point of this takeaway as well, right?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I think at the heart of this philosophical question is Odrade asking that, right? And the examples she laid out are part of this fundamental question. Are the repellent things like those disgusting blind worms that I just dragged through the mud?

[A]

Yeah, fuck them. I mean, fuck those blind worms.

[B]

The disgusting things that we find in nature around us, or even the disgusting things that we humans create, like those fucking sligs, folks. A slig is a slug.

[A]

Pig.

[B]

It's a pig sized slug, to be clear.

[A]

Yeah, sweetest meat this side of heaven.

[B]

Are either of those things the disgusting meat or the disgusting blind worm definable as art in the first place? If we're so disgusted by them, whether or not we created them or they were born naturally. And that kind of leads to what I think is kind of a core debate within the sisterhood. Does art always have to have a purpose? Do the blind worms do anything? And does art always have to speak to our human sensibilities? If our human sensibilities are disgusted by the thought of a pig sized slug, is that art or is it not? And if it's not, how do we categorize it, right? Like, what do we call a thing that falls outside of those buckets? Something that doesn't have purpose and something that offends our human sensibilities. Can we even call that art? And I think Frank is maybe asserting here through this exploration through Odrade's thoughts, that we humans have sort of a natural bias toward naming only pleasant creations as art, right? Things that have purpose and speak positively to our human sensibilities. And maybe we do that at the expense of ignoring the uglier misunderstood things in the world, whether they are naturally occurring or created by humanity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think at the same time though, Odrade's thoughts, to me don't read as a total condemnation of how we define art.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because Odre does observe that humanity's earliest experiences judge these things for us. Right. This is bad. Scary. No. Or this is good. This speaks to my sensibilities. And human evolution does give us this inclination toward or against certain things in nature. And so I think there is an acknowledgment from Frank and o' Draid here that, yes, perhaps we can be too hasty in defining what is and isn't art, but that hastiness does come from sort of natural human inclinations.

[A]

Yeah. Or delineating what is, like, cultural aesthetic and what is, like, specific to. I was raised in the west, and so I've listened to this type of music and blah, blah, blah. Like, there is this sound that sounds harmonious, this music sounds good to my ear. And this music sounds. Sounds bad that might be culturally formed. And then there are sounds like a baby crying or a loud explosion or the crackle of thunder that touch something more deep and more human and more. More animal within us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have. We have sense responses that are evolutionarily focused. You know, a fear of spiders. Right. You can say. It's not just that. I was taught by Western society that spiders are scary. There's, like, a evolutionary reason to be upset by little scurrying things that might bite you and kill you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that. That delineation is interesting and is important.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because you might find something revolting because it's outside of your culture. And then you might be quick to say, but that's just revolting for revolting sake. No, that's making you take a look at your culture. I think about this a lot with the sexuality in these books, where people said, these books are horny. And then you look at it, and it's not glorifying the talking about the swell of breasts and the hard, you know, erections and blood. It's like they have sex. And you go, is the inclusion of sex, period, making this book smut? I don't think so. And I think it's a puritanical approach to say they talk about sex. It's a horny book. And I think that forces you a little bit to step outside of your cultural lens and go, oh, oh. Maybe as an American, I'm just uncomfortable because so much of media gets rid of it entirely to be safe, you know, and to get rated correctly so that you can have the widest possible audience by the corporate people in charge. So I think delineating those two lenses is really Cool. And is really interesting. And some of the best art does that, that says, hey, this reminds you of terrifying natural things that maybe you're upset about regardless of what culture you come from. And then some of these things might only be upsetting to you because you're from this culture or because you have this experience. And that's a really interesting balance point. And I think that's kind of Odrade's point, at least in some part here, Right?

[B]

Yeah. Whether or not you think the creation of a slig is art, it may offend your senses, but it is still something you have to recognize exists. And maybe, as you're saying, then actually question your own revulsion to it. Why am I having this reaction to it? And at the same time, that reaction is innate. You can't help but have that reaction because you are human. And something in humanity's past has trained us to look at a pig sized slug and go, ew. And both of those things can be true. And I think in the context of art, that is a very interesting debate to have.

[A]

Yeah. And again, also it's like, okay, so do you need to always be consuming art? You know, it's like the same people who say, I only read when it's like, you know, productivity maxing, like nonfiction books. And it's like, you're allowed to fucking read books about wizards, dog. Like, life's not that goddamn serious, dude. I think it's the same, it's the same frustrating impulse where they say, oh, any media should be art and, and, and it all should, should all challenge and grow and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, listen, I have a degree in it. I agree. It's a time and a place, and I think more people should get comfortable. I think media literacy and an understanding of art analysis kind of go hand in hand. The ability to look at a thing, certainly dig a little deeper. Huge fan of that. But sometimes you've had a long fucking day and you just want to relax and chill and enjoy something. And at the end of the day, it's fine, just enjoy the music.

[B]

I couldn't agree more. Turning to a dread for a second, though, I wanted to share this epic graph because I was skimming through the book and just a few chapters ago, folks, there's a quote from Daario Drade herself in an epigraph at the start of the chapter where she kind of lays out her opinion. Quote, the best art imitates life in a compelling way. If it imitates a dream, it must be a dream. Of life. Otherwise there is no place where we can connect. Our plugs don't fit. End quote.

[A]

I think I agree, but to be clear, I think it's because I've kind of recently fallen on this idea that almost all art exists because we struggle to express ourselves and the language and the words that we have. And a dimension that you can give expression is color and art, art and representation and expression. And you draw the things that are interesting to you. You capture what's in front of you, but you choose not to capture certain things. You tell stories about the things that interest you. I think what, what we respond to in art is a recognition of ourselves and of our experience. You see, I've talked about this a lot on this podcast where someone says, I'm sad, you say, I'm also sad. But you don't necessarily feel in that moment a deep camaraderie. You don't, you don't necessari viscerally a simpatico of we have the same sadness. But then you hear a song written by someone who is sad. You hear a song about sadness that has a little bit of positive and a little bit of anger and a little bit. It's this mixed up bag of emotions. And you go, holy shit. Wait, no, no, no. That's the fucking thing I feel. Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I'm not alone. There's someone else who has felt this bag of emotions. And I think, like, that is a lot of art. It's an attempt to express the inexpressible. It's an attempt to step outside of necessarily articulatable language and to say, look at this thing that you experience, this emotion, this scene, this literal still life of fruits on the table. But also this poem that I think captures the unexpressible melancholy that I feel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think if someone does something so abstract that you cannot see any shred of your own human experience in it, I do think that you would struggle to connect with it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I have trouble even imagining what that would be. But I think that's also why she's saying, I mean, if you do bad art, bad art. So best art is one that imitates life in a compelling way. I guess she would then say is like the other side of the spectrum is something that doesn't imitate life or imitates life in a. In a drab way. At which point you go, yeah, but that, I don't, I'm not, I'm not moved. Or. I don't know. That just seems like a. Yeah, your plugs don't fit.

[B]

Your human plugs don't fit. You know, like, you got the, like, USA version of the plugs, and you're in the UK and you're like, God damn it, I forgot my adapter. And now this art plug. Plug won't fit. I agree with you. I think we're very much in the same camp when it comes to this definition of art. How do we define what is and isn't art and what the best art does? I agree with o'. Drai. Generally, the best art is the kind of art that imitates or expresses life in a compelling way, that speaks to something deeply inhuman, innately human, something that we maybe don't even always entirely recognize about ourselves. You know, you might look like I went to. I was in France last year for your wedding. Right. And I went to the water lilies. That room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With the water lilies. And like, I don't know. I don't really care about water and. Or lilies. You know, they're just. It's just. But I walked into that room and I don't know what I was feeling, but I, like, started crying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was overwhelmed in that room by something. And, you know, even looking back, I don't know what it was, but something in the way that room was structured and those paintings were painted and just the sort of something about the environment where everyone was very quiet and just soaking it in. Most people didn't have their phone out. There was one lady, like, live streaming on Facebook, which was annoying, but, you know, some combination of all of those things, like, touched me innately, touch something in me that felt very human. And I think that is what Odrade is getting at. What Frank is getting at is the best art touches something inside you and speaks to some human sensibility inside you in a way that maybe you don't even recognize. But the plugs, they fit perfectly. I think the question then becomes, what about the things that don't do that? Right. What about the things that don't connect with anything human inside of you?

[A]

Yeah, I think that there are things, like, I was thinking about the distinction between a photographer who captures a moment of mundane life, like a street photographer who captures the guy smoking a cigarette playing chess in Central park. And you've seen that picture taken by an amateur that doesn't look good and isn't compelling in some way. And I think.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah.

[A]

The thing that is that there. There is something quiet or, you know, you. You. You hand your camera to a young niece or nephew and you say, oh my God, it's going to be so powerful to see the world through their eyes. And then they're just a bunch of shitty snapshots and you're like, they're not a very good photographer, are they? We should probably get them in a class or something. But. But some of that is framed by the way that you think about things and the way that you interpret. And yeah, it's interesting because, as she even says, the best art imitates life. Implicit within that is what she thinks is the most compelling art. It's. It's the art that serves her purpose the most. Right. Our plugs don't fit. That's only if you intend the plug to fit. If you have a plug in an outlet, those things just are. And there's nothing like necessarily good or bad about that. But if you want to charge, you need your plug to fit. So, yeah, within that as well is again, the, the implicit desire for things to move forward or to work or to change. And a plug that doesn't fit is in some ways compelling if it's a commentary on that. We always want our plugs to fit or something like that. Yeah.

[B]

And I think the beautiful part of it is nearly infinite version of human plugs exist. Right. Because something that speaks to you could utterly be lost on me, and vice versa. But that doesn't make the product itself not art anymore. Right. Like, it's. I think there's also sort of a corporate misconception that, like, speak to the broadest audience, you know, quote, unquote, have as many plugs fit as possible to make the most money, et cetera, et cetera. And that's how we define something that is successful and art. But I think, you know, many of my contrarian friends would argue that, like, if someone makes a thing and 99% of people look at it and go, that's terrible. And 1% of people look at it and go, wow. Yeah, that's incredible. That's art. And as much as I love arguing with my contrarian friends, I wouldn't disagree with them on that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it just depends on where you want to do out the word art. I did have the thought recently because I was listening to this guy talk about the future of music and how music and visual arts are becoming similar to printmaking. And in the age of AI automation, you have the ability now to make fully produced pop songs using these tools with, like, no trained musicians involved. And yes, it is on the back of stolen creativity. Right. It's the voice of some existing singer. It's the instruments trained off of people who spent years and years and years practicing. But those data sets are done and those tools exist and you could write new lyrics that you could be the artist who writes the new lyrics, or you could have fucking chatgpt put together words in an order that hasn't necessarily existed before. And we can get on our soapboxes and go, AI art is slop. But there are top charting musicians and songs right now, today that have no human singer or musician or band. And so within the pop sphere of what is popular and what people like listening to, there is not this like clearly discerning. We need the musician to have a soul. The interesting thing for me is that there are artists and I won't name names. Taylor Swift who could be automated because they are so clean and so shaped. You know, it's like the mix, the sound, it's so a specific thing. There are other artists like Olivia Dean is a very new artist who's winning a bunch of awards and accolades. She is so present in her music as a singer that if you didn't have her as a singer or Maldive is another example, someone who is like, so it sounds like Maldive. You would need to literally synthesize that fucking human for it to be even approaching the same degree of texture to her vocal performance. And that's just not most music, right? Music that I love, I love like EDM and club music and I love like electronic music. When you have that like girl vocalist who's just like. And it's. And you're like, that could be fucking any, anyone that doesn't matter. You just need. It could be a guy being just like, ah, it's like done that music is very automatable in the same way that like a sweater could be made by a factory machine and it's no longer like oh, that person's grandmother who hand knit it using her traditional techniques. We're getting to a point where visual and audio music and art is like that and is automatable. And it's going to be interesting to see that becoming a distinguishing feature of like. There are certain types of visual and audio performances that are very hard for LLMs to do. Is that now going to be a distinction where people say, well, this is art and that isn't. Can it be done automated by a machine?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or does it need a person to be able to be done?

[B]

Yeah. And where's that line, you know, what does that even mean? As the machine gets better and Better at imitating the human. How do we make the art more human? And maybe is the answer, make it uglier and make it more full of human mistakes and irregularities where a machine would sand off all of the edges and make all the pieces line up perfectly. A human would kind of fuck up the edge maybe and be like, ah, whatever, I'll glue it in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like maybe the messiness is what is now definable as art. And the over perfection, the sheen of machinery and the perfection of it becomes repellent to our senses. You know, I mean, listen, I think within the context of artificial intelligence, this question is fascinating and I think literally changing in real time as we are evolving as a species.

[A]

Tomorrow this conversation will be dated.

[B]

Like this will be outdated, right? By the time our free listeners on the public feed hear this, in three months, this whole conversation will be irrelevant.

[A]

They're in a VR Hellscape in their bubbles protected.

[B]

Okay, all right, let's put the worms back in the can and try to wrap up this takeaway and land the ship here. I think Odrade's thoughts here serve as a big clue about another stagnant and problematic aspect of the Bene Gesserit worldview. Because as we've talked about so many times now, the Sisterhood does everything with purpose, with a plan. It has taken months to install Shiana in Tamerlane's place. Yeah, everyone had to fucking vote on it again. And probably again and then again.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The Sisterhood has also over time become masters of manipulating human sensibilities. Right? That's like the whole gist of the Missionaria Protectiva. We tap into that religious desire of humans to manipulate them. I mean, central, for example, even in this book, we're told, is laid out to perfection to as close to perfection as can be to be a self sustaining system. Duncan himself is worried that he is going to lose Merbella. Once the Sisterhood comes in and sands down all her rough edges, she will lose the things he loves about her, the messy human things he loves about her. That is how the Sisterhood operates, right? That rigid worldview has certainly given them so much influence and so much stability. You know, they're one of the few organizations that made it through the 3500 year rule of the God Emperor and are still around in relatively the same functional format that they were thousands of years ago. So yes, to some extent this worldview of the Bene Gesserit has worked for them and has been deeply successful. But as we have explored in Heretics and Chapter House. It has also blinded them to the value of unknowable things, to chaotic things, to the more human parts of human nature. Odrait herself asked, quote, what would Van Gogh have been without his impurities? End quote. Yeah, AI Van Gogh would not have been able to paint those fucking paintings. Those cottages would have been too straight.

[A]

The Bene Gesserit would have been like, let's sand those impurities down, let's get rid of them. And then he just like, rid of Van Gogh's impurities, does some boring ass impressionist photos and you're like, I want Expressionism. No, no, no, not in this house.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So that embracing of the chaos of human nature is something that Bene Gesserit have really trained themselves away from to too strong an extent. And I think bringing it home. This is where Odrade's admiration of Shiana's sort of simple painting, right? This worm on like a sandy whatever with a person standing in front of it. This sketch, I think it's meaningful for o' Drait to look at that and go, wow, that's amazing. Because the painting seemingly doesn't serve any like huge purpose. I don't think Shiana's trying to make some grand statement from it. Even though a drade is standing here thinking like, what's the grand statement here? What could she mean by it? Seemingly all it is is just an expression of Shiana's feelings. She drew a thing that kind of speaks to her past as a Fremen, to her abilities to talk to wyrms, to the future of wanting to find a worm on Chapter House. And that's maybe all it is. China is able to create art simply for art's sake without the burden of this. Like we got to have 12 committee meetings about it and we need to make a 47 step plan to make sure that this lands exactly how we need it to. Because it's got to have so much purpose and it's got to have touch. Every human sensibility that we manufacture it to, that's the Bene Gesserit mindset. Shiana is able to not think like that. And I think this reminds Odrade that her former pupil is not fully indoctrinated into the Sisterhood's worldview. And that I think is like 50% scary for Odrade and 50% she loves it. And I loved the scene for that and for us to be able to get inside Odrade's head here. I think pretty powerful writing from Frank to ask some big philosophical questions about art, but also once again reveal some things about the sisterhood and Odrade.

[A]

Yeah, I also, just as we wrap up, I think it's notable that this is Odrade who's having these thoughts and these kind of observations. I think were this to come from Scytale or were this to come from Dama or were this to come from Logna or any set of the characters in the book, even Shuang Yu, like members of the Bene Gesserit or Balanda. Right. Members of the Bene Gesserit, members of the cast of characters who we have kind of been cued to look at skeptically and listen to skeptically. O' Draid is someone who is often writing very close to Frank's own beliefs, kind of with the mark of we should take seriously her ponderings. And when she asks these sorts of questions when she has these thoughts, they are meant to be taken seriously and at in some ways face value as like real worthwhile considerations versus, like, if Lucilla had some of these thoughts, we might go, she's just being kind of weird. That's Lucilla. You know, she's weird. I think Frank is. It's clear that Frank has thought a lot about this idea. He's engaged in this conversation. I'm sure he's had many long conversations over glasses of wine with his contemporaries and his friends going, oh, but I think this is art and I don't think that's art. And I think that we see a lot of this boiled down in Odrade's perspective. And I really appreciate that because I do think that it makes her feel like this fleshed out psyche in a way that is so distinct from so many other characters. And I love it and it's excellent.

[B]

Love it. Okay, that is our incredibly dense. I think we did a pretty okay job trying to stay on, on the rails there.

[A]

So. It's only been 30 minutes.

[B]

It's only been 30 minutes. Let's take another quick break, folks. We have a couple of delicious morsels to chomp down on before we say goodbye and wrap up today's episode. So we'll see you in a minute with our spice morsels.

[A]

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Carhartt made possible. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. And I hope you're ready to dig into some delicious spice morsel. It's snowy outside. I don't know. Speaking's hard. Our first spice morsel today is grapes. Fine Italian wines. Italian fine wines even.

[B]

Yeah. Before you continue, green or purple?

[A]

Purple. Okay, glad we cleared that up. Or red? Aren't. There's like a bunch of. Anyway, in our last chapter today with pulp. Pulpy, pulpy grapes. In our last chapter today, Odrade takes Scytale on a chilly walk through the Bene Gesserit vineyards. And we get this excerpt quote. These southern slopes were planted to grapes crests and colder northern faces reserved for orchards and improved vinifera. These vineyards, developed by many Jesuit gardeners, old vines, roots gone down to hell, where, according to ancient superstition, they stole water from burning souls. End quote. Whoa, what a section. What a. Describe your orchard series of words.

[B]

Imagine your next apple picking orchard. And that's what's on the website.

[A]

You're like, what the fuck? Enjoy Deep roots going down to hell to seal water from burning souls. They are Macintosh apples. Yeah, we were every shade of curious having read that paragraph.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like good winemakers on a fertile new plot of land, we got to digging and here's what we found, dear listeners. So working backwards, the reference to stolen water from burning souls, I expected to like stumble upon a treasure trove of stuff. Almost nothing on the Internet. Now part of this is because so much of the language is biblical. I just kept finding like quora entries of people going, why is hell fiery? And stuff like that. Not at all relevant. But there was a Reddit thread from user Dark Mind989 asking basically this same thing five years ago. And another user, Vanguard3000, shares a quote from a book. This is a 1959 book called the New LaRousse Encyclopedia of Mythology that explains the God of the underworld, the Roman God of the underworld, Pluto, quote, received buried treasure. He was then considered the God of agricultural wealth. From the center of earth, he exerted his influence on cultivation and crops. End quote. So the idea that this Greek Roman God of the underworld, the God of burning souls and hell is also the God of agriculture. Maybe that's the connection. Now, all things considered, this is a book. This. The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology is a book from 1959. So it seems very possible that this book of mythology and Greek mythology might have made its way across Frank's desk at some point in the 20 years before this book was Finished at the same time. That's not a 100% match. So if you out there in listener land know what this reference is. Old vines, roots going down to hell, where they steal water from burning souls. Let us know. But I wanted to talk for a second about improved vinifera, because I was like, yeah, what are vinifera? That's kind of cool. Merriam Webster actually has a definition, vinifera as, quote, a common European grape, vitis vinifera, that is the chief source of Old World wine and. And table grape varieties. End quote. And obviously the Bene Gesserit were like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Let's improve it. Let's make it better. It's not good enough for us, Right?

[B]

Sand down those edges.

[A]

Sand down those edges. Get rid of them. Now, this is a species of grape. This is a whole category of grapes, and it includes between five and 10,000 varieties. Whoa. So lots of different varieties of this vitus vinifera. Only a small number. I saw like a dozen to 30 or something like that, are actually used in commercial winemaking. Nevertheless, the vast majority I saw as high as 90% of wine seems to come from this species. And wine enthusiast.com says quote, if it comes from Europe, it's likely vitus vinifera. Oh. End quote. That same.

[B]

Thanks, Wine Enthusiast.com Thanks Wine.

[A]

Not sponsored. So very, very cool. And I did want to point out, part of why I chose this morsel was because during the Fullerton research, when I was going through all of the fun documents that we found in the contents of Frank's wallet was a, quote, vintage guide to fine Italian wines, end quote.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Our guy Frank was out here trying to fucking know the difference between wines. Here's the first paragraph to cover this pocket sized guide. Quote, this vintage chart prepared. I should read it in like a 1950s quote, this vintage chart prepared specifically for the United States by Dr. Pierre Garglio, President of the Italian Academy of Vines and Wines. Excellent name. Florence, Italy, is his impartial evaluation of these winter varieties of Italian wines that are generally available in the United States. End quote.

[B]

Wow. Incredible.

[A]

Frank had that in his fucking pocket. And it's so fun. He doesn't fuck around with wine, so when he's writing about it, Dune, he knows what he's talking about. So back to Dune. There isn't a lot to be said from this. You know, this isn't giving us new insight, Right. It's just. It's just kind of a fun detail that Frank's putting into the book. But of Course, typical Bene Gesserit. They would have old, established human, you know, tied to old Terra. They have these wines, but they've improved them. And of course, they have them on Chapter House. Of course they do. Now, listen, they might not enjoy eating and drinking. They might just be doing everything for nutritional balance and to satisfy their body's needs. But that doesn't mean they're going to settle for whatever shit you buy at Trader Joe's, okay?

[B]

Yo, for real.

[A]

For real. They're only European Old world, but improved. So don't go bringing them some Two Buck Chuck, all right? No Chateau Diane. Not in this fucking house, all right? She's not a reverend mother. Get her out of here.

[B]

Amazing. Great job on that research. Okay, morsel number two, folks. Let's talk about cyborging him.

[A]

Cyborg him, Cyborg him.

[B]

So, obviously, chapter 30 ends on this iconic decision by the Mother Superior to save the mortally wounded Clareby with cybernetic technology. So I thought it might be fun to take a look back at the history of the term cyborg in pop culture. Here is a brief overview of what I learned, folks. Way more fascinating than I thought it would be. So the term cyborg was first coined in 1960 by Manfred Kleins and Nathan Klein.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

In their article titled Cyborgs and Space, which was published in September 1960 in the journal Astronautics.

[A]

Can I say much later than I would have expected?

[B]

Much later. Right.

[A]

I thought this would be like a 1920s Russian thing, but no cyborgs. 1960s. That's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

The term itself coined.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

I mean, the idea, the concept of humans and technology merging, that's been around, you know, since the early 19th century. So Kleins and Klein were actually not sci fi authors. They were researchers at Rockland State Hospital in Orangeburg, New York. And this article where they coined the term was actually about how humans could survive in space. Here's a bit from the article's introduction. Altering man's bodily functions to meet the requirements of extraterrestrial environments would be more logical than providing an earthly environment for him in space. End quote. So they were sort of positing we should adapt to space and we should not try to force space to adapt to us, because that's way harder to do, honestly.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

Kind of sound reasoning. Yeah, fair. Now, in case you hadn't put it together, dear listener, the term cyborg is a portmanteau of cybernetics and organism. You smash those two words together, you get cyborg.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So the term after 1960 was quickly adopted by sci fi writers and began to show up as early. The earliest reference I could find was Edmund Hamilton's 1963 short story after a judgment day. So just three short years after Klein and Klein's coined the term Frank Herbert, our guy, ever heard of him? He himself used the term in his 1966 novel the Eyes of Heisenberg to describe a group of mechanically enhanced humans.

[A]

I'm literally reading that right now. That's so funny. Really? Yeah, yeah, that's so funny.

[B]

Just six years after the term was actually made up.

[A]

Holy shit.

[B]

Frank Herbert used it in this novel. The concept of cyborgs became widely adapted in sci fi literature and wider pop culture in the 70s and 80s through lots of hit novels and hit television shows and movies. RoboCop, the $6 million man, lots of examples you can point to. Now, cyborgs are also often central to the cyberpunk genre itself, which also came into popularity during the new wave science fiction movement in the 60s and 70s. So the term cyborg and the cyberpunk genre all kind of lined up and came into popularity in the same couple of decades there between the 60s and 80s. Now, a final point that I wanted to make, folks, and this is really important, this will be on the exam, so get your notebooks out. It is important for you not to mix up your sci fi robot terms, folks. Yes, cyborgs are different from androids or bio robots. Okay? Don't be mixing that shit up. Here's the specific definition of what constitutes a cyborg. The term applies to a living organism that has had a function of their body restored or reconstructed via an artificial piece of technology. And this technology has to rely on feedback from. From the organic body to function in a symbiotic manner. And oftentimes, this artificial installation imbues the cyborg with superhuman abilities that they would not have been capable of doing before the operation. That is when you know it's a cyborg.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So I don't want to hear anyone in the chat or anyone in discord ever mixing that shit up again.

[A]

Don't fuck it up. Swear to God, if you call something that's not a cyborg a cyborg.

[B]

Yeah, if you misuse Android, you're. We're kicking you out of the discord, all right? Wow, folks, this was a long one. We appreciate the folks in the live chat here on YouTube hanging out with us. As always with these book club episodes, we have homework for you for the next episode. Make sure that you have read the next three chapters that's 31, 32, and 33. Or if your copy of the book is slightly different from ours, read through the chapter that ends on this sentence. Quote, you have 90 standard days to get ready. She said, not one day more. End quote. Holy shit.

[A]

Talking to the winemakers, she's like, we have such a brunch planned. You've got 90 standard days to get enough wine for everyone. Chilled Chardonnay. The girlies are going to be wanting to drink.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Wow, that's exciting. Okay, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support us here at Com Jabbar and a way to keep in touch with us. And of course, the two best ways to support what we do here at Come Jabbar. One is to become a patron over at our Patreon. And the second is to get yourself some Gom Jabbar themed, some Dune themed swag from Gom Jabbar shop. Those links are in the show notes. Or just tell a friend. Tell a friend about your favorite Dune podcast. Either way helps us out.

[B]

That's right. And of course, a final reminder that we love to hear from you. And the best way to get in touch with us if you're not in the discord and if you're not a patron, is to email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com. send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us pictures of your cute pets. Oh, my gosh, we love those. Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com is a great way to get in touch with us.

[A]

So true. Tell us your favorite noun that's become a verb as a character says to cyborg someone. That's great. Love it. Share your favorite. Share your favorite Portmanteaus. I'm a huge fan of Portmanteaus. I think those are cool. It's fun when you don't even know they are, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, my favorite. Yeah, My favorite's actually karaoke. Karaoke is a portmanteau between the Japanese word kara, which is like empty, and oke, which is the Japanese word translation of the English word orchestra. So it's the. The voiceless empty orchestra. And K is a. It's a Japanese term. And it combined empty and orchestra. And I'm like, what a cool thing. What is just like a cool little piece of linguistic history. And we're like, karaoke. That's fun.

[B]

Yeah. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place of where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lower Party podcast network on laurparty.com you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Laur Party. And of course we're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember Cyborg Him.

[A]

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