Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 11)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 11)
May 1, 2026
Hosts: Abu (B), Leo (A)

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Episode Overview

In this deeply analytical episode, Abu and Leo continue their book club journey through Frank Herbert’s final novel, Chapterhouse: Dune, covering Chapters 31-33. The discussion encompasses not only the dense plot developments but also tackles the book’s most controversial scene—Miles Teg’s awakening—addressing its narrative and ethical implications. This episode also features signature worldbuilding “spice morsels” on Latin and historical references found in the text, making it insightful for both seasoned fans and newcomers. The hosts’ tone oscillates from energetic banter to earnest concern, especially as they confront the moral complexities of Herbert’s work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chapter Summaries

Chapter 31 – Odrade and Murbella in the Training Room

• Odrade visits Murbella: Odrade observes a very pregnant Murbella pushing the Noteship’s training machine dangerously past its limits, “modding” it for higher difficulty. (06:08)
• Murbella’s transformation: Odrade is impressed by Murbella’s commitment to the Bene Gesserit and her willingness to undergo the agony, solidifying her as central to Odrade’s plans.
  • "You're important to us beyond the abilities. Because, look, we don't really need you for your abilities. Shiana has already mastered them." (07:50, B)
• Murbella’s love for Duncan: The subject of Murbella’s relationship with Duncan arises; she stands firm, refusing to “give up” her love.
  • "That love will never go away. Agony or no agony. And you know what? Fuck you. You're just gonna have to be okay with that, Mother Superior and the rest of the sisterhood." (08:27, B)
• Odrade’s secret hopes: Odrade’s internal thoughts suggest Murbella represents the hope for a more human, passionate Bene Gesserit 2.0.
  • "The Bene Gesserit must change its ways, and here is one who could guide us into change." (09:38, B)
• Murbella’s horror at Bene Gesserit tactics: She’s shaken by Odrade’s intentions regarding the child Ghola, showing the cost of becoming ‘all’ for the sisterhood.

Chapter 32 – The Awakening of Miles Teg

• Scene setup: Scytale notes the unusual activity on the ship—Murbella is in labor.
• Initiation of Teg’s awakening: Odrade and Duncan have switched from the traditional traumatic Bene Gesserit method to Duncan’s proposal, having Shiana perform an “imprinting” (sexual awakening) on the nine-year-old Ghola Miles Teg. The choice is deeply disturbing and controversial.
  • "The Bashar was not a child, it's the Bashar we're awakening." (15:47, A)
• The 'awakening': The process works; Teg’s heightened abilities resurface instantly.
  • "He moves faster than anyone can see... This is the speed that we saw in Heretics." (17:29, A)
• Ethical tension: Duncan and Odrade’s justifications come off as hollow rationalizations.
  • "Even that feels like a giant fucking pretzel twist to get to. It's not bad, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, no, Dre, it is fucking bad." (16:05, A)
• Teg's response: Teg processes his trauma with remarkable speed, drawing out lessons on emotion and humanity for the Bene Gesserit.
  • "Murbella was right. And the sisterhood had to relearn emotions. If they were only observers, they were doomed." (20:17, B)
• Tag and Duncan dialogue: Teg introduces the “name chain” Mentat exercise, describing a near-loss of self, emphasizing the instabilities at the core of identity—including a subtle nod to Buddhist philosophy.
  • "In that hall of mirrors, sometimes you feel there is nothing, right? There's just a void." (21:39, A)
• Teg’s key intention: Full honesty with the Bene Gesserit from this point on, as he sets plans with Duncan.

Chapter 33 – War Gazebos and Strategic Planning

• Light-hearted banter: Odrade and Bellonda’s “gazebo” argument opens the chapter with rare humor.
• Return of the Toj: Dortujla, fresh from Honored Matre captivity and torture, brings newly acquired intelligence and trauma—but also resilience.
  • "Seems like an inefficient way to make fertilizer." (26:51, A)
• Futars’ screech: The Futar’s paralyzing “Voice-like” screech stuns even the Honored Matres—a worldbuilding nugget connecting their habits and evolution.
  • "I've never heard such a sound. Chilling. Every Honored Matre in that room froze, and I swear to you, they were terrified." (28:03, B)
• War planning: Miles Teg advocates for a direct assault on Junction, with Odrade herself as a spy—despite the immense risks.
  • "Losing everything is more costly." (32:12, B)
• Teg’s secret: He can see no-ships, but withholds this game-changing fact for now, fearing misuse by the Sisterhood.
• Closing symbolism: Teg references Dante’s Inferno—“abandon all sanity, ye who enter here”—to convey the madness of the coming conflict.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bene Gesserit change:
  • "The Bene Gesserit must change its ways, and here is one who could guide us into change." (09:38, B)
  • "If they were only observers, they were doomed." (20:17, B)
• On the ethics of Teg’s awakening:
  • "The Bashar was not a child, it's the Bashar we're awakening." (15:47, A)
  • "Even that feels like a giant fucking pretzel twist... It's not bad, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, no, Dre, it is fucking bad." (16:05, A)
• Murbella’s stance:
  • "That love will never go away... fuck you. You're just gonna have to be okay with that." (08:27, B/A)
• On Futar and Honored Matres:
  • "I've never heard such a sound. Chilling. Every Honored Matre in that room froze, and I swear to you, they were terrified." (28:03, B)
• On war and strategy:
  • "Losing everything is more costly." (32:12, B)
  • [Dante reference] "Abandon all sanity, ye who enter here." (35:39, B)

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Major Takeaway: Ethics of Using Children (39:10–74:45)

• The hosts directly confront the deeply disturbing scene where Miles Teg’s memories are awakened through sexual imprinting as a child.
• Intentional discomfort: The scene is meant to be monstrous and repugnant—every character in the book expresses horror or discomfort. Even the calculating Odrade reflects on the loss of her own humanity in this moment.
• Host perspectives: Both Abu and Leo are united in believing the scene was unnecessary and poorly executed—even as fans who appreciate bold, uncomfortable art. Frank Herbert’s choice is critiqued as shock for shock’s sake, relying on edginess rather than careful narrative development.
  • "I think making the choice to resort to child sexual abuse to make your narrative point is lazy writing and to me, reads as being edgy for the sake of being edgy." (59:25, B)
• Missed narrative opportunities: The hosts note that crucial character debates and justifications (Duncan, Shiana, Merbella) happen off-page, leading to a lack of emotional weight and coherence.
  • "We never hear their debates or their internal justifications for why they'd want to do it." (60:36, B)
• Patterns in Dune: They highlight an uncomfortable pattern of sexualization of minors throughout the series.
• Personal and fandom reflections: The scene has caused some readers to abandon the series and is an enduring stain on Herbert’s legacy, prompting the hosts to wish a stronger editorial hand had been present.
• Final stance: While Herbert’s intention was to provoke and critique Bene Gesserit utilitarianism, the hosts believe this goal could have been met by less harmful means:
  • "He could have made Teg older. They could have discussed it at length... You don’t need to go there to make the point." (70:56, A)
• Mirbella’s contrasting morality: She comes out as one of the most sympathetic characters, reinforcing the episode’s major thesis about the need for humanity and emotional engagement in the Sisterhood.

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Noteworthy “Spice Morsels” (75:13–87:44)

1. Mens sana in corpore sano (77:21)

• Odrade’s reference to the Latin phrase (from Juvenal’s Satire 10) translates “pray for a sound mind in a healthy body.” It’s a marker of the balance between physical and mental rigor, juxtaposing Murbella/Virtue with the pleasure-seeking Honored Matres (78:55).
  • Hercules vs. Sardanapalus analogy: striving for virtue and toil over sloth and hedonism.

2. Lebensraum (79:41)

• Miles Teg internally references “Lebensraum,” German for “living space.” The term’s dark history is outlined—from early 20th-century German geography to its adoption in Nazi rationale for expansion and genocide.
  • Tag purposely invokes this term to remind the Bene Gesserit of the dark allure of expansion and domination, offering a lesson in the dangers of dehumanized, tribal war thinking. (81:53–86:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Housekeeping and Spoiler Warnings: 02:05
• Chapter 31 summary: 05:39–12:20
• Chapter 32 summary: 12:26–23:34
• Chapter 33 summary: 24:21–37:22
• Main Takeaway – Ethics of using children: 39:10–74:45
• Spice Morsels:
  • Mens sana in corpore sano: 75:13–79:35
  • Lebensraum: 79:41–87:44

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Final Thoughts & Next Up

• The hosts encourage the community to submit questions for the upcoming mailbag episode, welcome disagreement and nuanced discussion, and close with their signature mix of humor, self-awareness, and abiding love for Frank Herbert’s achievements, even while holding him to account.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Read (or Heard) the Episode

This episode provides a comprehensive, emotionally charged examination of pivotal events in Chapterhouse: Dune, focusing especially on the controversial awakening of Miles Teg. Abu and Leo put the event—and Herbert’s creative decisions—under critical scrutiny, offering context, literary analysis, and ethical criticism that is rare among fandom podcasts. For those weighing the merits and themes of Dune’s later books, this episode serves as a thoughtful primer and a mirror for the legacy of one of science fiction’s most complex universes.

Transcript

[A]

And you're not going to demand I give up my desire to dive way too deep into every little etymological reference?

[B]

That attachment presents difficulties. But they are your difficulties.

[A]

Another way of asking me to give it up.

[B]

Accept the possibility. That is all.

[A]

I can't.

[B]

You won't.

[A]

I mean what I say. I'm incapable.

[B]

And if someone showed you how,

[A]

I almost said that would set me free. But yes, I could not be free. Not while scripting these episodes.

[B]

A shorter script, Leah, will set you free. I promise.

[A]

I'll never be free. 30 pages, 40 pages. Make the scripts as long as possible. Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[A]

And my name is Leo.

[B]

And Leo, we're back. Yes, we are continuing our journey through the pages of Chapter House Dune.

[A]

I feel like Frank decided at some point that these chapters, like this middle of the book, would be. Each chapter is a novella worth of information and context. And again, scripting three. I was kicking myself. I was like, we should be doing two chapters at a time.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

It's dense. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. We have moved on from the point in the book where it's just Odrade in her office thinking things are now suddenly happening.

[A]

Yeah. Which is great. As a reader, as a podcaster, covering the content, suddenly we have a lot of work. We can't just be like, hey, guess what's happening? You're right. She's in the office thinking again. Anyway, before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping shout out. Mapes is eagerly waiting for us to handle our housekeeping responsibilities. So, starting off, spoiler warning again. Book club episode. No spoilers beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far. So if you are caught up with the reading, you are safe to listen.

[B]

That is right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. That's Daniel Dion, Seth Redding, Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahanram, and Roger Young folks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My battle plan to take down the honored Madre. Not as complex as Tegs.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It just involves sending our five Kwisettes

[A]

out of Rec level patrons up to

[B]

Junction to win over the Spider Queen for us. Honestly, they're going to melt her heart and she's going to join our side. She's going to become a patron.

[A]

You're too generous. I give up.

[B]

Exactly. That's the battle plan. So I hope Daniel, Seth, Brad, Kevin and Roger are suited up to be sent to Junction.

[A]

It's a pretty simple draft. Yeah. Congratulations, guys. You're the front line. That's right.

[B]

Right. They're the front line. But of course, look, we have a pretty healthy amount of reserve soldiers as well, because our heartfelt thank yous also extend to all of our patrons at every level who truly make this war against the honored matres possible. We thank you all so much for your service.

[A]

That's true. It's. It's weird, but it's true. And listen, if that sales pitch for becoming a monthly supporter on Patreon, we're going to send you to Junction to die. To the honor matre. If that's not enticing enough, you can also support the show with a one time tip. We'll just tell Dhamma about those tips and she'll be so again, she'll give up. She'll be like, they're generous, your supporters. And we're like, yeah, they're great.

[B]

Killer. Recond this.

[A]

So, with housekeeping out of the way, you all know the game plan for today's episode. It's a book club. So we're going to begin with a summary of three novella sized chapters. Then we're going to dive a little bit into a takeaway. It's the elephant in the room we don't want to talk about. But we should. And finally, we're going to wrap up with some yummy spice morsels. Both of which deep and weird. Deep and weird today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But before we do that, we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're talking about chapter 31.

[C]

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[B]

Welcome back, folks. Let's start, as always, by summarizing the assigned rating for today's episode in our first chapter. Today, chapter 31.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Trade visits Mirbella in the training room of the Noteship, where the former Honored Matre is pushing the training dummy, the training machine, past its limits. Yeah, this is very alia coded from Dunness.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[B]

This whole scene. So Odrade briefly watches Mirbella do her thing. She's both impressed and horrified that Merbella, a very pregnant Mirbella, mind you, very pregnant, has pushed this machine literally. She's, like, hijacked the wires to make the machine more dangerous than it's supposed to be.

[A]

She's modded it into a harder difficulty.

[B]

She's truly modded it. It's wild stuff. But eventually, Odrade gets stressed enough that she goes over and flips the switch and turns the machine off and. And the two of them have a chat. Their conversation covers a number of different topics, but the through line is pretty clear. Merbella has committed fully to becoming a Bene Gesserit, to undergoing the agony. And Odrade is elated by what she sees in Merbella, the growth and transformation that she sees in the former Honored Matre.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's, in this summary, touch on just a few notable moments from their chat, starting with the fact that Mirbella is clearly important to Odrade's schemes. Whatever Odrade has been scheming up and cooking up this entire book. Murbella is a key ingredient, and we learn that it's for more than her Honored Matre's sexual abilities. Merbella herself recognizes this, and she says, you don't just want my abilities, do you? I'm important to you in some other way. You never actually intended to even use me for the sexual abilities. And Odrade's like, yeah, yeah, you're totally right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're important to us beyond the abilities. Because, look, we don't really need you for your abilities. Shiana has already mastered them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So why are we still keeping you around? Why are we training you? It's because we have a higher purpose for you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is also a bit of an aside here, but the Shiana mention is also where we learned that Shiana is currently on the no ship as Odrade and Marbella are speaking, and Shiana is Making final preparations for the reawakening of Miles. Tag.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[B]

And of course, we know that's going to happen next chapter, but we get a little bit of foreshadowing here about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So returning to this conversation between o' Draid and Mirbella, the thorny subject of Marbella and Duncan's relationship also comes up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Mirbella is steadfast in her love for Duncan. She insists that's never going to change. That love will never go away, agony or no agony. And you know what? Fuck you. You're just gonna have to be okay with that. Mother Superior and the rest of the sisterhood at Balanda.

[A]

Yeah, she's got both middle fingers up, but they form a heart for Duncan. That's right. Love it. But also, fuck you.

[B]

Now, I loved Odrade's song and dance here because she plays the dutiful Mother Superior. The kamas are watching. Right. But of course, we, the reader, know that secretly this core of love is exactly what o' Drain is trying to cultivate within Murbella and at large within the sisterhood as an institution. In fact, it seems that this love may actually be why Merbella is so important for Odrade's plans. Here's a really fascinating thought from Odrade that stuck out to me. The Bene Gesserit must change its ways, and here is one who could guide us into change. End quote.

[A]

Holy hell.

[B]

And Odrade's thoughts in the conversation basically double down on this idea when Lady Jessica and her betrayal against the sisterhood, her betrayal for love comes up again. Odrade play acts very beautifully and she's like, oh, well, Jessica this, Jessica that. Look at the consequences of her choices. But secretly she thinks this absolutely juicy thought, quote, defias, Merbella do it more adroitly than Jessica, end quote.

[A]

Absolutely insane. Can you imagine your parents being like, you're going, oh, but my, like, older sibling snuck out and got caught and got in trouble. And you're saying I should, like, you know, what if I sneak out? And the parents thinking, yeah, just don't get fucking caught, dog. Do it better.

[B]

Right? Do it better.

[A]

We're getting both sides of Odrade's interpretation. She's going, okay. The official thing I should say is, yeah, Jessica's a criminal and she was made an example of. But her internal thoughts are so much more revealing and both of those mean so much to us now that we know so much about the universe and

[B]

we can see Murbella is being molded somewhat secretly by O' Draid. Because recall, o' Draid is constantly here having one on one lessons and meetings with Murbella and the no ship.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Murbella is being molded into what perhaps Odrade thinks is the Bene Gesserit 2.0. The version of the Bene Gesserit that maintains that core of humanity, maintains that core of love and passion and living all the things that make life worth living that the Bene Gesserit have forgotten and lost and foregone over the millennia.

[A]

Yeah. Cooking beans with garlic or whatever that recipe was.

[B]

Okay, so to wrap up the chapter, at the end of their conversation, Mirbella ultimately agrees to coach Shiana, and she reaffirms her commitment to undergoing the agony. I will become a sister. I will undergo this agony. I will become a Reverend Mother. Watch me. The final lines of this chapter I found to be really chilling because Mirbela, in the final moments here, realizes that Odrade plans to force the child ghola of her own father.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into sexual subjugation through Shiana. And this horrifies her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Quote, the Bene Gesserit is all, to a Reverend Mother, great door, protect me. Will I be like that? End quote.

[A]

Yeah. Again, this is the theme of the book, but it's still shocking to hear it so kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know on its face, to

[B]

be put so bluntly. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that leads us into chapter 32. Now, our next chapter begins with Scytale. As he's leaning. He's just leaning next to his little, like, prison guard cell. His. His, like, barrier that keeps him enclosed. And there's a bunch of activity on the no ship. He's like, what's going on? Is it someone's birthday? Is it a quinceanera? Is this another Bad Bunny concert? Hell, yeah. But no. In fact, it is delivery day. Merbella's baby is on its way.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

Very exciting. We do get some hints here that he has secret knowledge about the Gnosthip, and sort of hints of a desperate ploy he might attempt to escape. But again, no time to be concerned with any of that now, because immediately the chapter whips us over to. To Odrade's perspective, because she's thinking, hey, Merbella is, you know, busy giving birth to a human. Great timing to initiate the awakening of Miles Tegg, legendary Bashar. I'll also just say, good Lord, after how slow and plodding some of these chapters have been, this chapter hits like a sack of bricks. Oh, yeah. So much happens. And just Sitting down to be like, let's quickly summarize what happened in this chapter. Almost impossible, but we did our best. Sit back and enjoy as we attempt to summarize this chapter against our will. Against our will. To be clear, this is probably one of the harder chapters ever. Streggy brings young Miles Tech into a carefully prepared room. This kind of like bedchamber with some of his things as o', Draid, Duncan and others watching through a two way mirror. This is like an observation room. And Duncan is in the observation room with Odrade, with a few other like proctors and like high level Bene Gesserit reverend mothers who seem to be there for damage control. Whether they need to restrain Duncan, whether they need to kill tag, whether, like there are a lot of contingencies that these women are here for. Everyone is on edge. Duncan is clearly a little distracted about the love of his life, his anchor in this universe. Mirbella is giving birth. She might die, who knows? And he's second guessing this decision, which was his. He and Shiana were the ones to propose rather than going the classic route of breaking someone's psyche by making them do something so fundamentally against their like chorist belief. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that experience, Duncan knows firsthand, is so unimaginably painful that the second awakening he experienced with Mirbella, maybe that's the path forward. That was the idea. But now that he's watching this like naked 9 year old boy in this room alone, confused, lost, isolated, he's recognizing the fucking monstrosity of what he has proposed and he's dealing with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, Draid reminds him very unhelpfully quote, the Bashar was not a child, it's the Bashar we're awakening, end quote.

[B]

Such an important line.

[A]

Such an important line. And if we are to measure what people are victims of, by the way that they suffer after the fact, it might be a valid distinction to make like, it is not going to be a child dealing with the ramifications of this moment. It's going to be the Bashar.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But even that feels like a giant fucking pretzel twist to get to. It's not bad, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, no, Dre, it is fucking bad. What are you talking about?

[B]

Right? And I think the other deeply morally questionable thing about this is if it works out like we think it will, this whole time they're like, we have no idea if this will work. We might simply be assaulting a child and getting nothing out of it. On the other End. Right?

[A]

No, that's a great point. They don't know for sure. This is a gamble. And the stakes are so unbelievably monstrous. Yeah, desperate times, I guess. Anyway, Shiana enters the room with Teg and this deeply uncomfortable scene begins to play out as young Miles Tag is imprinted, AKA sexually assaulted. It's a horrific chapter and we hate it. Now Teg basically, like, right after the imprinting begins to have its effect on him and he awakens, is, like, thrashing. Shiana steps back and it's clear something of the old Bashar is immediately present in the young body. He moves faster than anyone can see.

[B]

Any of the highly trained people watching can see.

[A]

Duncan's been having sex with a woman for 10 years who moves faster than almost any other humans can. And even he's like, holy fuck, that child is fast. Wow, what just happened?

[B]

Right?

[A]

So this is faster even than Merbella, faster than the Honored Matre. This is the speed that we saw in heretics. And this nine year old body has it immediately. And this is our sign physically, that the old Bashar is back.

[B]

Correct? Yep.

[A]

They have done it. Miles Tag has returned. Now his memories return as he kind of gets his bearings. And we immediately see how fucking unbelievably powerful this guy's mind is. Because, like, recall, Duncan took days of, like, fleeing and he's like, assessing memories and he's kind of. Teg is immediately in charge. He's like, throwing these, like, really mean jabs at o', Draid, going, you fucking did that to me. That's crazy. I liked this a lot. He immediately forgives Duncan. You know, Duncan goes, yeah, it was my plan, right, to do this to you. Because I remember when you awakened my memories in that fucking Harkonnen no globe. And Teg's like, fair, hey, actually, you know what? We're even. We're even. We're even now. Teg's jabs at Odrade are strategic. He's pointing her thoughts in certain directions again. He's immediately kind of a teacher to Odrade, reminding her of Bene Gesserit weaknesses and what's necessary for their survival. Quote. Odrade remained silent, her thoughts moving where Teg had sent them. There was a hard shell reverend Mothers put around themselves against which all things from outside, including emotions, played like projections. Murbella was right. And the sisterhood had to relearn emotions. If they were only observers, they were doomed. End quote. Good Lord, what a great thesis summary of what we've been talking about, right? Just this whole book club series, like the. The idea of Bene Gesserit have almost done what the tyrant did. Removing themselves from humanity, looking at it from the outside, but without actually participating in it. Enjoying love, enjoying music, enjoying art, enjoying a good recipe with some garlic and beans. Sometimes, maybe that's what it takes to also be able to save humanity, is to be from within it. Now, Teg does kind of play a game with them. He goes, I might not actually go along with your plans. And they're like, wha? Like, oh no, he's rebelling. Kill him. But he says, no, no, no, no, I'm still loyal to the Sisterhood. I'm just saying, as a strategist, I reserve right to decide on a different strategy if it's right. And I need time with Duncan. We're going to discuss. He's going to give me all the data I need, Mentat to Mentat. We're going to figure this out. We're going to plot out our strategy. To the honored matres. I need some time right now. The chapter ends as Teg shares an experience he once had talking to Duncan alone. Once everybody's departed. Now they are being observed by comm eyes. And the whole time Duncan's going, wow, you're saying a lot of shit with the Benny Jesuit listening in. Where's the secrecy, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he talks about this Mentat rabbit hole, this thing that every Mentat tries at least once, which is called a name chain. He talks about being lost in this subconscious place called the hall of Mirrors, unable to identify a version of his self identity to latch onto. You go, I am Miles, Tag. I am the Bashar. But what is that like, what is Bashar was just a thing given to me. And then, right? And then before that I was Miles. But before that I was Sweetie from my. My mom, before she chose a name. And then what was I, right, that like nameless core self who existed before outside influence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is that? And in that hall of mirrors, sometimes you feel there is nothing, right? There's just a void. And you go, oh my God, my. By the way, as a Buddhist, I'm like, yeah, this is my shit bars. This is great. And Duncan is fascinated. He knows, of course, from his training as a Mentat, he knows about this thing and in fact, even makes offhanded reference to the dangers of it. Something that every Mantine is warned about. Don't go to that place, right?

[B]

You'll never come back.

[A]

Yeah. And Tag shares how he got out of that perilous Experience that most people have never gotten out of. And he said, well, I saw my mother. Oh, I saw an identity of my mother who took my hand and guided me out of that space. Wow. So Duncan goes, do you have other memory? And Teg responds. And again, this is where I find that Frank is really taking the opportunity to dispel some of the, like, supposed magic of this universe. Because Teg's response is, quote, no, except what anyone has in emergencies. The hall of mirrors was an emergency. And it also led me to see and feel the source of help. End quote.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's saying this isn't some special ability. Everyone has this in a crazy enough emergency. This is something that is accessible to anyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, I love that.

[B]

I like that, too. That stood out to me.

[A]

Now, the purpose of Teg sharing all of this openly and on the record. Quote, I figured it was time we introduced ourselves fully to the Bene Gesserit. Teg said they should know how far they can trust us. There's work to do, and we've wasted enough time on stupidities. End quote.

[B]

I love Miles.

[A]

Tag. Oh, my God, what a fucking great character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll wrap up this chapter by saying as much as Frank takes every other page to warn us about falling in the, you know, into the hands of a charismatic leader. God damn, he's good at writing. Charismatic leaders.

[B]

Yeah, Like Tag.

[A]

I would follow tag. 9 year old or 200 year old, without question. Just yes, any day. And I feel like that goes against Frank's warning. I'm like nine year old, Miles, tagged for president. I don't give a shit, dude.

[B]

Absolutely. If Teg is in charge, I'm absolutely enlisting. I'm ready. Because honestly, you know, you're not going to fight most of the time.

[A]

Yeah. That's the thing. Oh, my God. He's not just pulling triggers out here. He's talking. He's figuring it out.

[B]

He's talking. He's a diplomatic soldier.

[A]

Oh, love them.

[B]

Okay, let's wrap up our summary. One more chapter to go here in chapter 33. Oh, trade. Like much of this book is having a terrible, horrible, no good, bad day. And the chapter actually opens on what I thought was actually a rare moment of levity in this book. This almost joking scene between O' Draid and Balando where they're arguing over O'Drade wanting to create a gazebo over there, across that hill in that orchard. Make it. Make it happen. And Blonda's like, what the fuck are you talking about? We're at War. This is war time.

[A]

I need a war gazebo. It's gonna be beautiful.

[B]

And both of them know this is a pointless argument, but it seems like this is a way for these two Reverend Mothers to bet some feelings and maybe even talk about something that is not the death of all the Bene Gesserit and all of humanity and the destruction of everything they know. That's at least how I read it. I thought it was actually quite funny and cute.

[A]

Yeah. They have their. Their coping mechanisms involve very low stake arguing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which, you know, we all do that. Everyone's done a little bit of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Poking the bear at the office just

[A]

to let off some steam, I imagine. Just a silence in the office and then. Oh, trade goes blonda. Chocolate or vanilla? And she's like, vanilla. She's like, you. I knew you would say that, you idiot. Chocolate's the best.

[B]

Yep, that's how I read this. Now, their argument and this discussion, the discussion inevitably turns from gazebo to honor batre anyway. Because, of course, that's on everybody's mind. That gets interrupted when an acolyte runs up with breaking news.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

What the t. Oh is here?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Celebrity back from Junction. Back from the clutches of the Honored Matres.

[A]

Holy shit.

[B]

And this kicks everyone into high gear. O' Draid whisks away to attend Dortugela, who, by the way, is looking rough. I know she did not have a great time on Junction. The Honored Matres, we learn, tortured her. They conducted experiments on her, and they killed her three fellow Reverend Mothers that also went to Junction.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Basically trying to use those deaths against Tortushla and the two. Just like, they already airdropped me all their memories. You can kill them. I don't care. It's horrific.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I got their memories. They're safe. God.

[A]

Her line where she's like, seems like an inefficient way to make fertilizer.

[B]

It's like, absolutely savage. Yeah.

[A]

Incredible. Again we see that the entire Honored Matre psyche is unable to comprehend the idea of other memory. So they're going, well, surely if we threaten to kill this person, you're gonna do what we want. And she's like, death is not exactly the same for me as it is for you.

[B]

Yeah. Death is totally different for a Bene Gesserit's sister. I also really liked the throwaway line in between all of this where Tamerlane was the one who asked if the dead Reverend Mother's memories were downloaded. Because she is nearing the end of her own life, so she would be preoccupied with what's next and whether I will be remembered and whether my memories will be downloaded. I found that, like, a really touching throwaway line in here.

[A]

Yeah, that's great.

[B]

So the Touj from this gamble has learned a couple of very important things for the war effort. She reveals that the Futars are capable of. Of this, like, paralyzing screech that kind of has, like, a little sprinkling of the Voice in it that freezes Honored Matres in their tracks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Quote, I have never heard such a sound. Chilling. Every Honored Matre in that room froze, and I swear to you, they were terrified. End quote.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Also awakened Reverend Mother with, like, millions of lives and memories going, I've never heard a sound like that. And you're like, never. What?

[B]

What could that sound be? Right?

[A]

Like, 11,000 BCE there weren't any critters on the planet that sounded like that. Nothing. Never. That's insane. A new experience for a Reverend Mother is pretty shocking. It is, yeah. But I also love this detail because for me, it kind of quietly filled in a lot of world building around the Honor Matre. Like, I think, you know, and again, this is a little bit like tinfoil hat. Leo, speculation time. But ultimately, like, okay, imagine you are being hunted by Futars, these creatures that can. That eat human and can screech. And I, again, I think they are, like, a human hybrid. But Dortugio is like, no, they're not human.

[B]

By the Bene Gesserit yardstick, they are not human.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Presumably they would not pass to pass a Gam Jabar test or something.

[A]

No, probably not. But being hunted by a creature like that, that could freeze you with a voice like screech would make sense. Why then the Honored Matre have, like, dumped all of their points, all of their, like, ability points into speed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's like, yeah, the sooner you can kill something, the sooner you can kick it in its throat, the faster you can be safe from its screech attack. Plus, they have this built in, kind of subconscious reflex to kill the Voice. Right. Like, we've seen that where the Bene Gesserit try the Voice on the Honor Matre, they get killed. And even the Honor Matre are like, whoa, I didn't mean to kill you just then. That's weird, right? And it's because of the relationship of the Voice to this paralyzing screech. I'm like, I love that. I mean, it's such a fun. This was not Something that Frank was focusing on. I did not remember this at all about Futars or about that relationship. But suddenly it makes sense. You're a hunted population of warrior women. Of course you're dumping all of your points into agility. And the ones who've survived are the ones that kill people who try to use the voice on them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have some answers to questions I didn't even think to ask. And it just passes in a moment. It's great.

[B]

It's great. World building for sure. So returning to our chapter summary. After the Touch gives her report to a Drade, Odrade kicks into high gear. She's suddenly making decisions and plans are underway, folks. It's go time. She orders the Toj to rest and recover. You've done your duty. You've really pushed yourself to the limit and you've earned some rest. And once you're rested up, I need you sitting in on all of my councils.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you have direct interaction with the Spider Queen, you are now acting special counsel on all of our military plans against the honored Madres.

[A]

She's been to Junction. She's been in the lair of the enemy where they're going to have to go.

[B]

So that'll be the Tush's role going forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Odre then summons Teg into the room. And together with Tamerlane and Balanda and Stregi standing nearby, they begin to discuss war plans. What are we going to do now that we have this information? Tag, the military genius suggests avoiding outright war, which is classic tag, and instead fainting at Gamu before striking directly at Junction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where the Honored Matres are home based. But in order for that plan to work out, he says that they're gonna need first hand reporting from the planet's surface. They're gonna need that critical intel for this military operation to be successful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The cost of this maneuver shocks the room. That's wild. We're just going to directly attack them. But Teg makes it clear that he understands the stakes. He's not proposing this just to be dramatic.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

Quote, losing everything is more costly. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's his argument.

[A]

He's doing cost analysis. He's like, we do nothing or we do something, you know, less bold, we'll lose everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we have to be bold. We have to do something like this. And that's apparently the conclusion that he and Duncan have come to. Although I also love him going, do I have to tell you all the plans now? And Odrah, it's like of Course not. And he's like, sweet, because yeah, I might need to like surprise everyone.

[B]

It's amazing. The nature of surprise is that I don't even tell you, you know, everybody needs to react to my surprise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that I can orchestrate it perfectly. It's brilliant stuff. Miles, tag the goat.

[A]

Meanwhile, maybe, maybe also Frank got to writing this chapter and he was like, oh, what is the plan? Oh, fuck. All right. Tag says, I'm not going to tell you yet. I'll come up with that later, said Frank. I mean Tag. Tag said that.

[B]

That's right. Procrastinating the plan for sure. Now an interesting note. During all of this military planning, Tag is not revealing the fact that he can still see no ships.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In addition to his super speed flash abilities, he has also retained in this Gola reawakening his ability to see no ships, which is an absolute game changer.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

But for whatever reason he feels it's too early to reveal this to Odrade and the Sisterhood. He's keeping this one close to the chest.

[A]

I think he rightly guesses because recall at the beginning of this book, and maybe even the beginning of heretics, that is the Holy Grail.

[B]

It is.

[A]

That is the goose that laid the golden egg. Everybody wants a way to nullify Gnosium because if you have that, you win. You just win. You have the skeleton key that opens any door. So I think he is guessing correctly. If he says, hey, I have this ability, he's done. They are going to lock him down and they're going to take his genetics and they're going to take, they're going to make a thousand clones of him and they're going to just say put a tag on every ship and that's what we're going to do.

[B]

This is our new war strategy now.

[A]

This is everything. And I think he rightly is guessing. If I show them that I have this ability, they are going to get in the way of what I'm actually going to propose, which is going to be the best method, period. And like, I don't get the impression that he is going to throw away this new life that he has. But still, it's like, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. And if that's what it takes to save humanity, he can't have the Bene Gesserit going, no, you can't do that because we need your abilities.

[B]

I think that's a spot on. Read of it. I think you're absolutely right. He's not holding this back for any nefarious reasons. In fact, he's trying to protect the Bene Gesserit from itself. This will be too distracting. You will all stop paying attention to what I'm saying. And then become fixated on the no ship thing. And he recognizes that this card is best played close to the chest and activated when the time is right. Okay, let's wrap up this chapter. In this summary section, chapter 33 ends as Balanda spells out the most daring part of this maneuver. Oh, Draid herself is going to be on Junction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And will be acting as Teg's spy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She will be the one transmitting that all important intel from the surface of the planet itself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, shortly before everybody leaves to handle their various assignments, Tag references the writing above the gates of hell in Dante's Inferno. He says, quote, abandon all sanity, ye who enter here. End quote. O' Draid obviously clocks this reference immediately and she asks if he is referring to the lunacy that wartime amplifies.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Miles Tag plays coy, quote, what else? Surely you didn't think I referred to your sisterhood. End quote.

[A]

You, you, you, you, you, you, you. Oh, you tag, you trickster, you. And Odrade's like. I mean, Duncan plays that game all the time. Are you playing? Are you fucking with me?

[B]

I just love that this nine year old Tag is fucking with his daughter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But clearly, as we've said many times in our coverage of Heretics and this book, Miles Teg is perhaps the only non Bene Gesserit in the whole universe that can tap dance with the best of the best Bene Gesserit out there and even outwit them at times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he continues to show that ability here in his interactions with Balanda, Tamlain, Straggy, Odrade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's where we end today's reading. The clock is ticking, folks. We have less than 100 standard days to prepare for this fateful encounter with the Spider Queen and the honored madres on Junction.

[A]

I mean, knowing the way Frank handles time, that could be the next chapter. Or it could be six chapters from now. Maybe we'll get six chapters of just office talk, Zoom. Meetings. Meetings about meetings. Should we have another meeting tomorrow? Let's put a, let's put a one to one on the calendar tomorrow. And the week drags by.

[B]

You know, Balanda is salivating at the thought of putting meetings on calendars this week.

[A]

She's like, yeah, so I just sent an invite to all of you for the next 35 days, six meetings a day. Well, that is our summaries taken care of. We have a takeaway to talk about, but before we do, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're talking about the ethics of using children.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

Prices and participation vary. Welcome back, folks. Yeah, let's now get into our takeaway for today. And there was a moment where we considered other takeaways for today's episode. But ultimately, I think it's important for us to frankly address the elephant in the room and talk about that chapter where young Miles Tegg is awakened. Yes, that incredibly upsetting scene and moment of assault against a child. So before we get into it, let's lay some groundwork and then we'll unpack it further.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be clear, this scene has been telegraphed somewhat for most of the book. It has come up in conversations. It has been hinted at by Shianna, by Marbella, by Duncan o' Draid has considered it as well. So it doesn't come as a total shock, I think, but that doesn't make it any less of a shocking scene in and of itself. And we're not going to dwell on the nitty gritty details. We're not going to read any passages from this scene because we don't want to reopen any wounds for anyone that's listening.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're going to talk about it, but we're not going to actually read the words.

[A]

Yeah, we thought about doing a trigger warning kind of real kind of explicit conversation about this, but ultimately, I don't think that's necessary. I think we can. We can talk about the scene without necessarily getting into those details. And along those lines, don't worry if you are concerned that, you know, we're going to be kind of very gently discussing the worst parts of this chapter.

[B]

Yeah. But all of that being said, we did ultimately decide to make this the takeaway today because it is a really monstrous moment in this book and in this story and in this series. And I think it's worth dwelling on the what, whens and whys of it all and sharing our own thoughts on it as well.

[A]

It's also, I think, as it will be clear when we're done talking about this, this is probably one of the few moments in all of Frank's books that you and I both agree probably should be different than it is. And I think we'll be kind of making that case today a little bit. Although that's also not exactly the purpose of this discussion. But in any case, to talk about the scene without necessarily talking too much about the scene. In its defense, the scene is meant to be disgusting, uncomfortable, shocking, and very much like that is clearly Frank's intention is to really upset us. Every character is uncomfortable, Right. You know, Merbella, an honored matre, who, you know that they're doing all sorts of shit, right? Like having sex with animals. You know, this is kind of their mo. Kind of their MO and she's like, damn, you, Bene Gesserit are fucking crazy. Like, she is taken aback. She's like, you're.

[B]

She is.

[A]

Oh, you're really doing it. Oh. I kind of thought that that was just a bluff, but no. Okay. Sure enough. And even Odrade, the mother superior herself, the one who's calling the shots, yes, this was Duncan's idea, but she's the one who's orchestrating this, deciding, let's do it while Mirbella's indisposed. Let's do this while Duncan's partially distracted. We don't want him interfering, all of that, right? We get this little moment quote, dear me, she thought, are we nothing but voyeurs? Such thoughts were necessary at this moment, but she felt them demean her. She lost something in that intrusion. Extremely non Bene Gesserit thinking, but very human. End quote. Again, her internal dialogue highlighting how Bene Gesserit is opposed to humanity.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Bene Gesserit is not human. It's calculated, it's cold. It's ultimately calculated, and so much so that it is a detriment, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, Frank, in this moment, is making the decision as the writer, for better or for worse, and this is probably for worse, to cut the bullshit. He is no longer dancing around things subtly. He is not being subtle in this scene. And that's part of what makes it so shocking. Gone are some of the euphemistic terms and we get some, like, details, which is awful. And he's showing us the lengths to which the sisterhood will go. Yeah, he's showing us the realities of the sisterhood's choices. And really, you know, again, I'm sort of his cheerleader in this sense where he makes us feel the discomfort of being bored in a book. Here he makes us feel uncomfortable with the text. He is forcing us as the readers to sit in that discomfort and in that disgust where we viscerally go, I don't want this to be happening. I don't like this.

[B]

Yeah, you know, we've spent so many episodes talking about the Bene Gesserit's icky eugenics and their manipulation of politics and the difficult choices they've had to make. And that's all well and good, right? Like, you can talk about that intellectually from a distance, but here Frank makes the choice to show it. Yeah, this is what you're talking about. These are the, quote, unquote, difficult decisions the Bene Gesserit have made for humanity over the many millennia that they've been manipulating humanity. And it really challenges the reader. If you have ever championed the Bene Gesserit, dear reader, you have championed moments like this as well.

[A]

I mean, again, from the characters, we get that this is really a particularly terrible moment, but it's still a moment they're doing. It's still something they're deciding to do when push comes to shove. And we hear some of the excuses that the Bene Gesserit are able to pull out at moments like this, the things they're telling themselves, the narratives they're building in order to commit atrocities, quote, the Bashar was not a child, end quote, is a flimsy ass excuse to do the thing they're doing. Yeah, and again, it's like, yeah, I guess in like a fully utilitarian way where the person who has to live with the trauma is the person. And that all, you know, that's why like, anything done to children is so awful, because they just don't have any tools. They don't have any ways to cope. They don't have any, you know, they don't have perspective. They don't like, you know, something happens to me. I've got 35 years of like, life experience to help Soften things. And yet the fact that he will be an awakened Bashar doesn't change what you're doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's really, it's. It's not a good excuse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's one that really just shows the sort of like half assed attempts that the leadership is doing to justify this moment.

[B]

Right. And you're really banking on the Bashar's loyalty to the Sisterhood that he will forgive you for doing this at all. Right?

[A]

True.

[B]

Because it's not like this will happen, that the imprinting will happen and then a switch will flip in his mind and he will suddenly become the Bashar and not remember being the child.

[A]

Right. True.

[B]

Golas don't forget being a ghola once they're awakened. So he will remember this entire experience. He will just remember it through the lens of a more mature adult. Miles Tegg.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[B]

But that doesn't erase that this happened to him.

[A]

The fear, the trauma, all of the moment is gonna live as a real

[B]

memory for him, as a real memory, as a real experience for him, no matter what. And you're just hoping that once you're on the other side of it, that the mature Bashar will go, damn, that was fucked up. But I get why you had to do it. Right. And that is effectively how he responds. So the gamble works out for o' draid and the Bene Gesserit at this point. But there is a very real chance where it does not. And all you've done is traumatize a child.

[A]

Yeah. And then you've thrown away so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is also not a situation in which you can just grow another Gola and try again and go back to the classic way. It's like you're really banking everything on this.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, this, I think, makes me at least reevaluate my relationship and thoughts on the Sisterhood. We have discussed for two whole books now what the Sisterhood's place in this universe is. Right. We've asked some big questions. Are they the villains of the Dune universe? Wait a second. Are they the heroes? Are they maybe just a necessary evil that we all have to put up with? Wait. Don't they claim to be the enlightened curators of humanity, farming humanity for a better crop in the future?

[A]

Right.

[B]

We've had all of those discussions about the Sisterhood thus far. Discussions that clearly Frank Herbert intends for the reader to have. And I think this is a scene that should give us all pause. And certainly I think Frank's intention is for it to give the reader pause, to force the reader to reconsider everything that we know about the sisterhood or that we've been told about the sisterhood, this assault is part of the Bene Gesserit. It is part of the fabric that makes the sisterhood who they are. It is at their core. And so that, for me, begs the question, is the core rotten? An idea that's been tossed around ever since heretics of Dune? Is the core of the Bene Gesserit rotten, and does it need to be thrown out and reshaped entirely? And so I'm curious. I think this is a moment where we can pause and maybe share our feelings on it. But does this scene, Leo, dramatically change your feelings about the sisterhood, or does this still feel in line with everything you know about the sisterhood?

[A]

So what I would say is, based on the reactions that all of the members of the sisterhood are having, even with their perfect memory of everything the sisterhood has done, this is ranking pretty high on the list of atrocities that they've committed. So if I'm sharing my perspective on the sisterhood as a whole, going back to old Terra and the long history of the sisterhood, I don't know that that has changed as much, because, again, we are not learning in this moment. Oh, yeah, we do this every week. This is like. And we've been doing this every week forever. But. And this is a big old but, fuck this, sister.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I think at this point, Frank is showing, like, saying, yeah, you know, that they've done questionable shit over the years, and yet I really need to show you how far they'll go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look at how far they've gone. Also, Frank spent the last book and a half writing o' Draid this character that we, time and time again will be like, she's the best. We love her. She's great. Odrade is such a fun character. I love Odrade. And Frank's like, I think you're falling into the charismatic leader trope again. Because, look, she will be the one spearheading this thing. Like, Frank, the one who's ultimately cynical about charismatic leaders, is again, teaching us that lesson. Do I think he needs to do I think this is a necessary part of this story? I don't know. Again, we'll talk about that more broadly in a bit. But I think Frank is reminding us that thinking that she is the goat, the greatest of all time, does not mean that she's not capable of heinous, vile shit. And to be fair to Odrade, which is again with a giant asterisk, because I don't think this should have happened. I think she sees this awakening, the great Bashar Milestag as the only viable survival of the Bene Gesserit, which in her assessment of the way that the Honored Matre are conquering the old Imperium, this shortsighted, violent method, I think she sees the survival of the Bene Gesserit and the Sisterhood and this part of the Imperium as nothing less than the survival of all of humanity. So the question of, okay, well, I gotta be the one to pull the trigger, so I'm gonna pull the trigger and that damns me, and it damns the order of the Bene Gesserit, but maybe that is the ticket that saves humanity. And I kind of get the impression that's where her head is at. Yeah, that doesn't make it any better. And again, I think that this is an indictment of where the Sisterhood has fallen. Yes, they are doing something really especially monstrous, but this is in line with shit they've been doing for years. You know, it's kind of the same thing where we talk about them going, ew, they've been enslaving people with sex. And you go, like you're any fucking better Bene Gesserit. Like, just because it's not that crude doesn't mean your, like, servants and peons are any more free.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that this is intended for. To really spoil our opinion of what the Bene Gesserit Order is at this moment. I think it succeeds. And I don't know that that changes how I feel about the Bene Gesserit 3,000 years ago. But, like, today. Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The order is. It's. It needs to be reinvented. And I think that odraid knows that and she's saying the same thing, but that doesn't make it any easier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What about you? Do you. Did you still very Team Bitter. Should we go back to our Are They Guilty? Episode and rerecord that whole thing?

[B]

Right. No, I. I think you actually put that really beautifully and eloquently. So I'll just second what you said. You know, I completely agree. And I think what's interesting here is that in order to make this type of decision, you need to have enough distance from humanity, which is a thing we've talked about so much, a thing that Odrade recognizes in order to be able to say we need to do this, because it just is what it is, let's get it over with means you're shutting off a part of your humanity to be able to justify that. And the Bene Gesserit at this point in their history have distanced themselves so much and their superpower, other memory, in fact becomes a crutch. It's that Dr. Manhattan problem from Watchmen, right? You become so distanced from humanity that you forget what it means to be human and you lose that connection. You get this like 30,000 foot view of everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you forget what it feels like to be on the ground actually, and living and experiencing it and being human.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so the 30,000 foot view might have you go, well, we're in a life and death situation here. The Bashar is our only way out. This is what we got to do. And someone on the ground might argue, he's a kid. I'm. Surely we can come up with something else. And if we can't, then maybe we just accept our fate. Right from this point forward in the book, it's going to be very difficult for me to like, stomach what any of these characters say and what their justifications and motivations are, because I know they've made this decision at this point. And what's kind of even more disgusting is like, oh, well, it's successful. So we were actually justified in our opinion. It worked out.

[A]

Right. It's almost immediately the ends are sort of supposed to justify those means.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because we just get the. Okay, now war council time. How do we get out of this fucking. I'm on this rope with the axe wielding psycho behind me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're moving on pretty quick from the worst thing we've ever read. Like.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You're absolutely right. It's like the tone of, well, Teg's back, so it was worth it.

[B]

Yeah. That tone feels especially icky to me. It's like not really sitting with and reconciling what you did to get Teg back and immediately moving on to war planning. I will say the character that I'm coming out of this quite proud of is Mirbella. Mirbella is coming out the other side of this pretty squeaky clean. She has been very vocal in being against this. Despite being an honored madre, despite herself having used sexual abilities to subjugate men, she's never done it to a child. Presumably she's disgusted by that idea. And ultimately, I think this perhaps is part of the point of this scene as well. We are supposed to be endeared to Murbella to recognize that Mirbella is maybe the shape of things going forward. That goal that we should be reaching for, holding on to love, holding onto humanity, while still utilizing Bene Gesserit planning and long term thinking.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think that's spot on. So here's. Here's where we can pivot a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The question then comes, did this need to happen? Did we need to have this scene in order to get to that point and that perspective? Like, did Frank achieve what he set out to do as a writer and a storyteller? And of course we don't know what his intentions were as a writer.

[B]

We can't ask him.

[A]

But point is, I think when you start reading Dune and you go onto online communities and you see the conversations that are happening about Frank's six books, this scene is often brought up and it's a spectrum. Some people claim this is Frank indulging in his sexual fantasies and weird inclinations to others. Simply being like, yo, this was very uncomfortable, but it was intentional and needed because, you know, again, you. You could get to the chapter just before this and then pick up the chapter after this and be very Team Bene Gesserit. And you need to not be. Yeah. And that's why this scene is necessary. That's the spectrum. We get people saying this is Frank being horny and problematic. And then you get people saying, you know, that's the full spectrum. And I think it's appropriate that we share our thoughts on this as like, huge Dune fans and as fans of Frank and generally as people who try to be pretty fair and balanced when we talk about Frank and not putting him on a pedestal and as much as we can, although I definitely do end up doing that sometimes. So we are just sharing our opinions on this, but you might be wondering where we fall. And ultimately, I think as we get into talking about our opinions, it is worth noting if you out there in Listenerland have a different opinion. I think that's totally fair. I don't think there's any clean answer to this. Again, the world of art and the world of storytelling and the world of fiction is not one of clear and clean boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. And. And sometimes the entire art form is made stronger by people pushing limits. So at the end of the day, if you don't agree with us, that's totally fine. We don't necessarily fully agree either. With that out of the way, Abu, do you think this scene was necessary if you were editor in chief? Do you leave this chapter in.

[B]

No, absolutely not. I don't think this scene was necessary whatsoever. And in fact, I think Frank Herbert really fumbled the ball here, not just from a moral and ethical perspective, but also from a narrative one. And I think as a writer, that's not a good look. This whole scene, in fact, to me, reads as pure shock value rather than thoughtful, impactful storytelling. I think making the choice to resort to child sexual abuse to make your narrative point is lazy writing and to me, reads as being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the worst thing I can think of to make the reader hate the Bene Gesserit? That's what I'll do. And let's say, for example, as Frank's editor, I'm like, okay, man, you're really committing to this thing. You really want this scene in here. You think it'll be super impactful, important. Great. Then let's work to set it up properly, to give it the proper narrative weight so that the reader is not left confused and disgusted and wanting to put the book down and never finish it.

[A]

Yeah. Which were. Some people shared. They were like, I stopped reading at that point, and it's like, fuck, man. Five and a half books and you lost someone. Yeah. Is it worth it?

[B]

It's a tough look because I. I do think Frank failed to do that. He did not give this moment the justice it deserved, narratively speaking. If he was committed to doing it, he needed to set it up more. I would have liked, for example, a scene of Odrade and Shiana talking about it. Their conversation apparently happened completely off page. We get that in a throwaway thought from Odrade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We also never get a Duncan and Shiana scheming about this. We never hear their debates or their internal justifications for why they'd want to do it. And so as the reader, I'm left going, why the fuck did Duncan choose to do this?

[A]

Yeah. Considering how, like, racked with guilt he seems throughout this chapter, it's like, but. But you were the one who pulled that trigger in some ways. Why? Why would you do that? And we don't get that answer.

[B]

You're absolutely right. And I think Shiana is another piece of the puzzle for me too. Shiana is about as anti Bene Gesserit as Reverend mothers go. Why is she going along with this? What is the end goal for Shiana here? I'm utterly confused why she would be complicit in this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And nothing in the book has hinted at what Shiana's motivations here might be outside of she's scheming with Duncan, which is extremely vague and not enough justification for a scene like this.

[A]

It kind of makes her an accessory to his plan, whatever his plan is, which again, we don't even get that much of. Of like, why, why this? And not the traditional way. And he goes, oh, the traditional way is so bad. And you go, yeah, okay. Oh, okay. Because this is better, I guess.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then Shiana just is there too. But, like, she doesn't have agency or we don't see her agency in making that decision.

[B]

Yeah. And I think, you know, this is neither here nor there. This is not super relevant to the scene, but I think Shiana as a whole gets super sidelined in this book for how important and critical Shiana is in Heretics, for how much we build up her character and her ability to control the worms and everything. She is like not even a B list character in this story. Suddenly she's like, relegated to the background for most of it and maybe she'll come into play in the war planning, but that really seems to be where Miles and Odrade are going to shine. And it doesn't seem like Shiana has much left to do in this book.

[A]

Yeah, she's like, so I'm going to be on a pedestal as a new head of a galactic religion. And o' draid's like, eventually. Now you're on the council, though. You're just an employee.

[B]

Can you schedule my dentist appointment for me next week? Thanks.

[A]

Yeah, she's been downgraded for sure.

[B]

You know, I think this book is a tough look for Shanna and General, but I think especially in the context of her being complicit in this horrible act, it's an extremely tough look. And I think Frank utterly dropped the ball there. We also, you know, in addition to that, are told in this very chapter where the imprinting takes place that Duncan and Marbella, quote, unquote, had a fight about this once or something. And again, all of that completely off page. We don't actually experience the fight between Duncan and Marella, but we do get like a long ass chapter about like a nightmare she had or something, you know, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think there are moments in this book that could be trimmed down and these things could be added in to build up to a horrifying scene like this, to narratively justify it further, which I think Frank failed to do. And all of these, like, throwaway lines about we had an argument and Odrade and Shiana Talked about it. Don't worry, it happened off page. That, to me, feels like tacked on afterthoughts rather than careful, meticulous plotting to build up to an emotionally and narratively impactful scene. And so then the scene falls flat and ends up reading as nothing more than pure shock value. Oh my God, look how awful. They're assaulting a child. Isn't it crazy? That's not how you want this scene to land. And for me, at least, that's how it lands. And I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand more times. I really think Frank Herbert needed a much stronger editor in these last couple of books who pushed back on some of his more out there ideas and forced him to go back and polish and rework some of the clunky narrative and creative choices he made in these books. I think this is really Frank Herbert unshackled and unleashed. And he's at this point in his career, very famous and probably able to write whatever the fuck he wants and get it published. And I'm someone who strongly believes that editing is where the magic happens. And I just feel like Frank needed more pushback. I also want to just acknowledge that there is a somewhat uncomfortable pattern throughout the Dune series of sexually charged scenes that involve minors, that involve either children or teens. Lest we forget, in Heretics of Dune, when Duncan is subjugated and then reverse subjugates Merbella, he is literally a teenager at that point. That was over 10 years ago. And then all the way back in Children of Dune, we joke about beef swelling. It's a bit of a meme in the Dune fandom, but to be clear, that is a term we got in the context of a nine year old child presumably getting their first direction or something. So again, that that pattern reads as weird to me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I am not making. To be clear, I'm not making any ridiculous claims that Frank was some sort of like pedophile or something. But I also find myself unable to ignore that pattern. And it makes me question some of the choices that Frank makes in his stories. And ultimately, what's kind of a bummer as a huge Dune fan, is that these choices detract from my enjoyment from the stories.

[A]

Yeah, we see those moments levied so much against him. And like, no one wants to be the one defending beef swelling. No one wakes up in the morning and goes, you know what I really want to stand for today? You know, what creative decision I believe in. And yet that ends up being the case because it's like These books have so many good points and so many interesting critiques of society and religious institution. All these things.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And yet, as huge fans of the franchise and as prominent voices in this space, it is something that we find ourselves bumping up against often. And it's. And it sucks. Historically, I've been very team. Like, bold art is good art. Like, I do think that, like, if you're. If you are out there, you know, creating an artwork that's gonna really make people uncomfortable in some way, make them question their assumptions about themselves and society and, like, yeah, that's generally good. I do have a hard time justifying this scene being in this book for the following reasons. I think the boxes that this scene checks were already checked, and I think that there are other ways to check the box of. No, we really need you to understand how fucking awful the Bene Gesserit is without necessarily going here. There are. There are just other ways to do it. Yeah. And I think it's worth reiterating the point that I absolutely reject. There's this narrative online, and we've mentioned it today, the idea that, like, books that contain sex and sexuality are inherently, like, horny or sexual or like, pornography or whatever. You know, people talk about Frank got horny in his old age and blah, blah, blah. And I think that's such bullshit. These books do contain a lot of sex, but again, it is clinical. I don't even. The chapter where Mirbella and Duncan are imprinting one another, the discussions of them having sex over and over again in the shower, none of it is written in this tantalizing, smutty way. It's all very clinical in a way that, like, is just neutral and. Or sometimes a little uncomfortable. But at the end of the day, like, yeah, just kind of is. And I do think that it is clear to me at least, that Frank did not write this scene to glorify or relish that horrible act.

[B]

No. Yeah.

[A]

I don't think he was writing this from the perspective of, ooh, this is my little fantasy, and I'm just putting this. No, I think it is clear. He is saying this is the most monstrous thing that could happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm going to describe it enough to make you feel the monstrousness. And I think that's where this is fucked up. Because, listen, last book we saw the Murbella Duncan scene. Duncan's a teenager of some years, but it's clear that he's a little younger than should be having this act with Mirbella, and enough so that, like, even his Bene Gesserit teachers when he was a younger ghola were going, oh, it's too early for him to, like, meet Lucilla.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Right. It was too early. Yeah.

[A]

And so the fact that, like, this is serving exactly the same in universe role, this moment, this moment of awakening, Tag is accomplishing the same goal from, like, a functional standpoint. They need his awakened memories. I'm left scratching my head at why Frank would make the scene more awful by making the victim younger and also giving us more details as the writer. Yeah, like, I think you're right that it's. It's shock value. It feels like that. You know, I think when we look back on his interviews, even that, like, problematic UCLA one in the 80s, it. I think he enjoyed the sort of like, well, I'm just an intellectual having hard conversations, and if you're uncomfortable, that's you being uncomfortable with your own shit. Right. That's a problem. Get on my level and be an intellectual and be. I kind of get that impression from him sometimes from the work we've done researching him as a person. And so I can see that being present here of like, I know that this is going to be divisive, but if you disagree with it, you're not on my level intellectually, that kind of thing. And I heavily agree that a good editor. And again, I'm sure this book was edited by someone.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm sure.

[A]

But I think toning this down or even removing it altogether and changing the circumstances would be better. I think Frank, in the Dune universe wanted to explore sexuality as a form of energy, as a form of humanity, as violence, as control, as power, as domination. And honestly, totally fair. I'm here for that. I appreciate that train of intellectual investigation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he could have made Teg older. They could have discussed it at length and gone. And honestly, they could have even had a situation. This is kind of coming up to me now in the moment. They could have said, oh, Drade went, you know what we're going to do that. Shiana could have been like, you know what? We're going to do that. And it could have been Duncan, or it could have been Merbella even to say, fucking stop. Look at yourselves. Look at how what you've become, Right? We're going to do it the traditional way. We're going to convince him to kill Duncan and then he's going to break and he's not, you know, and it's going to be terrible and monstrous, but we're not going to go there. And there's the condemnation, there's the they are guilty of intent to do this thing, but we're not going to go there and we don't need to do it. Yeah, Frank's smart. He's a smart dude. He could have figured out a way of not including this and still accomplishing his narrative and literary goals. And I don't think it's a stronger work of art for it.

[B]

Right. And I completely agree with that point that it was a choice to write this scene and build up to this moment. Right. Like you're saying, Frank is a smart guy. I'm sure he thought of a dozen other ways to narratively get to this point and to get a point across. But then he sat down and chose these are the words I'm going to write instead. And I think that's where you and I agree that we sort of quibble with him on that. Yeah, the choice to do that and

[A]

listen again, got my degree in art. It's going great. Thanks for asking. And I think that there are artistic ends that justify genuinely shocking means. I mean, I've seen some works of art in the world, and again, nothing that involves like, assaulting people. But still, this doesn't clear the bar. And that's just a bad choice on Frank's part. You know, people will say, oh, Dune's all. Dune is super weird and super uncomfortable. And I'll generally broadly be like, no, you're wrong. It's a great book series. You should listen to my podcast about it. But the reality is, if they were like, yeah, what about this scene? I'm like, yeah, you're right.

[B]

Yeah, you're right there.

[A]

That's a.

[B]

You got me on that one.

[A]

You got me on that one. One point you0 points me. So that's where I'll kind of end my. My thoughts. But I do want to end on a positive note. I. I know this, this conversation is kind of a heavy one. So I do want to say that I love Teg. And the return of Teg's character from the terrified, traumatized child to the Bashar, is one that I think Frank handles very well. Again, would be nice if you had a couple of characters really talking about and unpacking that scene afterwards. But in light of that, I felt the room change. All of these characters who are such strong personalities, you felt feel them fall under Teg's command, though he is in a nine year old body. And I think that is really incredible. I'm glad Teg's back. What a great book. Except for that this one scene.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's our takeaway today, folks. We wanted to have that tough conversation. We've never shied away from the more difficult parts of Frank Herbert's work in these stories, and today is just another moment where we felt it was important to have the tough conversation, share our honest thoughts on it, and ultimately try to have a nuanced discussion of something that's difficult to talk about. And, of course, we're curious to hear what all of you think as well. And our goal is never to pass some sort of judgment or detract from how other folks may have felt.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

About these moments. We're here just opening up the conversation and sharing two opinions of countless out there. All right, let's wrap it up there before we fall down another rabbit hole. That's our takeaway, folks. Let's take a quick breather. Don't go anywhere, though. When we come back, we do have two delicious spice morsels cooking in the oven, so stick around. Hope you're hungry. We'll see you in a minute.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's biggest stage is approaching, and Ferrero is making it easy to go all in. Pick any two Ferrero brands, from Kinder Bueno to Ferrero Rocher, and you could win the $1 million grand prize, plus an exciting range of daily and weekly prizes. Don't miss your shot. Official rules apply. Learn more at Go all in and win dot com. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's get into our spice morsels, and our first spice morsel today is men's sana in corpore sano. Now, in our first chapter today, in response to Mirbela's explanation about that altered training mech quote, Odrade concealed elation. Mens sana in corpore sano. We have her at last. End quote. And of course, we here at Gom Jabbar love a random Latin reference. So we leapt into action here to bring you way too much information about this offhanded thought because, again, this is something that went over my head when I first read this book. I didn't know the reference and I just went, oh, I'll look that up at some point. Never did. So here you go. We looked it up here to bring you the deets. The phrase men's sana in corpore sano goes back to the Roman poet Juvenal from the work satire ten, which focuses on the balance between desires and the harm they can lead to when coveted and kind of prioritized over more virtuous behavior and God, actually. Now, the phrase itself is part of a list of things that are desirable in life and translates to pray for a sound mind in a healthy body. She's like, yeah, pretty good. This is from Poetry in Translation. Here is a broader sample of that section. Quote. Then you might pray for a sound mind in a healthy body, Ask for a heart filled with courage without fear of death, that regards long life as among the least of nature's gifts, that can endure any hardship to which anger is unknown, that desires nothing and gives more credit to all the labors and cruel sufferings of Hercules than to all the love making, all the feasting, all the downy pillows of Sardanapalus. End quote. Now, Sardanapalus, it was the last king of Assyria, basically, dude, who had it all super lavish, you know, just spoiled. Just orgies and fucking and food and drinking and all of the.

[B]

The softest pillows you've ever slept on.

[A]

10 million count fibers. That cotton's fucking crazy expensive. It's all from West Elm, all of his furniture. Anyway, point is, that is the juxtaposition. It's Hercules, this guy who fights and toils for humanity compared to the person who's just lavishing in worldly desire, worldly delights with no concerns or anything like that, right? It's not virtue, it's sloth. It's gluttony. So in short, sound mind and a healthy body represents the real prioritization is. Is over the worldly and fleeting pleasures represented by Sardanapalus and also the honored matre. Having, like, something you're working towards goals, having the like toil, the fight, the grit of Hercules, that is what you should yearn for. And in this scene, Odrade makes that reference because she's happy to see that Mirbella, her training is sharpening her mind and body perfectly. Her body, she's so healthy, her mind so focused. Her mindset has shifted away from that kind of hedonistic pleasure seeking of the honored Matre, their garlic beans recipes. And instead she's thinking more about pushing her limits, finding a stronger tomorrow, being more capable tomorrow than she is today.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that mindset is exactly what Odrade was hoping for again. Mens sana in corpore sano.

[B]

Love to be mensana in corpore sana.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

I try to be Mansana Corporation Sano every day.

[A]

Every morning I look in the mirror, I'm like,

[B]

All right, folks, morsel number two, let's talk about Lebensraum during the war council. In chapter 33 today, Tag lets the room stew in some historic ponderings. And among these thoughts we get this passage in particular. Quote, the forces impelling that great collective animal went back to the tribal days and beyond, as did so many forces to which humans responded without thinking. Mix the genes, Expand Lebanon's realm for your own breeders. Gather the energies of others. Collect slaves, peon servants, serfs, markets, workers. The terms often were interchangeable. End quote.

[A]

Commentary, social commentary.

[B]

Love some social commentary. The word Lebensraum there is not used accidentally by Frank Herbert, of course. And Tag himself throughout this scene is intentionally making references to history to remind the Bene Gesserit to not rush head on into wars, to fight against the animalistic instincts that we see have led their opponents, the honored Matres, into madness. So let's break it down. This phrase, Lebensraum carries a lot of weight. I learned a lot here from the research that you did. I did not know this phrase before today.

[A]

I did not either. And it seems particularly crazy that this one off phrase is used in the book. And that never clocked for me.

[B]

Never clocked for me either. So get ready for a little bit of a history lesson, folks. Buckle up here in our research from the Holocaust Encyclopedia. The term Lebensraum is German for living space, right? And it was coined in 1901 by the geographer Frederick Ratzel. And the unfortunate part of Lebensraum is that this terminology was adopted by the Nazis. This is considered a critical part of the Nazi worldview that drove both the military and the racial policies for the party leading up to World War II.

[A]

Right?

[B]

This idea that we need to create more living space for the German people as we expand and grow and populate the earth.

[A]

And real Germans, more Germans.

[B]

Pure Germans.

[A]

Pure Germans. As if that ever fucking exists.

[B]

Stupid. Exactly. It's disgusting, of course, but this, the idea of Lebanon's realm was at the core of it. We need more living space. We need to expand and populate more of the world with. With real Germans and to really land this point in a slide from a Hitler Youth educational presentation that we found, the word Lebensraum is used. Here's the English translation of the German in that Hitler Youth presentation. Quote, growing numbers of people in Nordland were forced to look for a new habitat. End quote. And habitat there is the English translation of Laupen's Ro. Basically, living space, more room for pure blooded Germans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now the idea evolved from being solely about overcrowding to genocide as we know from history.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Here's a quote again from the Holocaust Encyclopedia quote. A biological view of Levin's realm resonated with an inaccurate historical view of the German role in the east during the ancient and medieval periods. Expansionists clung to this mythic German history in Eastern Europe, arguing that these regions were actually lost German lands. End quote.

[A]

I'm so exhausted. That is by like that kind of narrative of like. And it's the same fucking thing. Sorry to get political for two seconds. But like, the make America great never was great for everyone. This idea of the mythologized history justifying today's behaviors and what we envision for tomorrow is so exhausting because why are we bringing up imagined shit in real decisions?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Deal with the reality. What are you doing?

[B]

Yeah. And actually from this quote, I really like the idea that phrase, the biological view of Lebensraum.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like we're not just taking living space and territory now, Right. Because we want Germany to expand. And for our Nazi ideology to expand, we're also claiming historical territory. That's untrue.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're going back and rewriting history and claiming that certain lands and histories were actually German. And so all we're really doing in the present today is taking it back. I find that interesting. Two uses of Leben's realm there. The literal use of we're fighting a war and taking more land. And the historical, biological view we're taking back. We're rewriting history. We're claiming old history.

[A]

Yeah. Also because like Lebensraum, the idea of there being space for living, if you're talking about overcrowding, okay? So everyone has a house and an apartment. So everyone's good. You're good. You have it. You've. You've accomplished it. And they go, no, no, no, this is biological. Levantraum. This is like, we need a safe environment, a safe German environment. Like a biological environment. And you go, what? But there's room for every. What are you talking about? They go, no, no, no, not room for us Germans. God.

[B]

Exhausting, obviously horrible, but I think also very intentional. For Frank Herbert, in a story where the hidden Jews are introduced.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, true. Yeah.

[B]

For him to be intentionally using a Nazi coded historical term here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For Miles Teg to make that reference.

[A]

Also Dune Messiah, Paul straight up being like, compare me to Hitler.

[B]

Right? I'm space Hitler.

[A]

I'm space Hitler.

[B]

So to bring it back to this particular moment of Miles Tag making this reference to Levin's realm, I think it serves as an important lesson for the Bene Gesserit, who are sitting at this war council making wartime decisions. This is a moment where Balanda, for example, is bloodthirsty. She wants to wipe out the danger. Get rid of the whores. Yeah. Destroy the honored madre.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To teach them a lesson, to make them feel our whip. Odrade herself even thinks that.

[A]

Yeah. Today, in today's chapters. That's so cool.

[B]

Literally, in today's chapters. And Teg, by bringing up Levin's realm, by bringing up these historical atrocities, war atrocities, is attempting to tamp down some of that bloodthirst. He's reminding them that in our collective memories, let us not forget that Lebensraum is a reminder of how horrible things can go, of the darkest parts of human history, and where war and conflict and bloodthirst can lead to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think it's. So it serves as an important reminder to the Bene Gesserit at that table.

[A]

Yeah. It's so fun to watch. Teg's role as like, knows the Bene Gesserit very well, but is not a part of it. Similar to Leto knows humanity very well, but it's not a part of it. And the Bene Gesserit knows humanity very well, but it's not a part of it. It's always that, like, you need checks and balances that are not part of your organization or part of your mentality. You need a diversity in perspectives in order to be your kind of fully realized self. Which is why Merbella, as this ultimate outsider to the Bene Gesserit, is, I think, getting the weight of all of these hopes and expectations.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Oh, man. Yeah, totally. A couple of morsels that just went right over my head my first reading.

[B]

Yeah, same.

[A]

Always appreciate how much, I mean, clearly just how much research and how much work Frank put into so much. If only he had a fucking editor for that one chapter. Anyway, that's our episode, folks, and we got some. An interesting bit of assigned reading for you today because the assigned reading doesn't exist next episode. Oh, it's a mailbag. So send your questions to us, send us your emails, drop them in our Discord mailbag channel. We are going to field questions in our next episode, our next book club episode. We will field questions about Chapter House, about this book where we are so far, about Dune, more broadly. If you have new thoughts or questions or considerations, we're happy to take those. Or just about off topic, fun things. If you got some fuck, marry, kill suggestions or whatever, throw them our way. Always happy to go off topic a bit, but let us know. Send us an email. Drop us those comments in the Discord. If you're listening to this on the public feed, the chance passed, but we do periodically have mailbag episodes. So if you send us an email with a question, we'll answer it eventually. So do that. Send it to us. Gomjabarpodcastmail.com that's our email address. You know what it is, but I'll say it again.

[B]

Gomjabarpodcastmail.com that's right. And of course, one quick reminder before we let you go, folks. The two best ways to support this show is to become a patron and to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. So check out those links in the show notes below. Patreon.com gomjabbar AD Free episodes, access to the Discord Early Book Club episodes, and of course, Gom Jabbar Shop. That is a new URL recently updated, so make sure you're clicking on the right link there. That will take you to our merch store where we have some beautifully designed work for you to show off your love of Dune and attract all of the romantic partners out there.

[A]

Yeah, once they see. Once they see that Coriolis Escape poster hanging on your wall, their clothes are going to drop faster than skin from the bones during the Coriolis storm.

[B]

That's right. If you're trying to woo your special someone, forget candle scented candles and wine and roses.

[A]

Candles is great.

[B]

Yeah, Grab some Dune merch, prop it up all around your bedroom and get in the mood.

[A]

Put a sticker right on your bed.

[B]

Put that Conley sticker right on your headboard.

[A]

You know, and they're like, conley, what's that? You're like, I'll show you as you withdraw your sword.

[B]

Show you, babe.

[A]

See you for this one, maybe.

[B]

Who's to say?

[A]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadida. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. We're also on YouTube. Check that out. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.