Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 12)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 12) – May 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this twelfth installment of the Chapterhouse: Dune book club, hosts Abu and Leo deep-dive into three crucial chapters (34-36) that mark a pivotal point in Frank Herbert’s final novel. They explore monumental Bene Gesserit decisions, pivotal character transformations, and the complex role of love within both the sisterhood and the Dune universe at large. The episode blends keen analysis with the hosts’ trademark warmth and humor, making it a rewarding listen for Dune veterans and curious newcomers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chapter Summaries & Plot Highlights

[04:46–38:19]

Chapter 34: Odrade’s Bold Moves and Mysterious Backups

• Odrade visits the Reverend Mother-only lunch hall; nearing her fateful meeting with the "Spider Queen" (the head of the Honored Matres).
• Odrade announces she’ll call a Convocation: First time since the death of Leto II, over 1,500 years ago ("Balanda's shock and her follow-up questions give the weight of history to this act").
  • Quote: "Before the Junction mission, at some point, Odrade will summon every single member of the Bene Gesserit to meet. Wow. Something that hasn't happened since... the death of the God Emperor Leto... 1500-ish years ago" – Leo [05:01]
• Logistics: Travel is too risky, so the Tooge will proxy for absent sisters.
• Bombshell #2: Merbella will soon face the spice agony–far sooner than anyone expected.
• Odrade deliberately chooses who will be "airdropping" their Other Memories as backups—"like time-machine backups"—to prepare for potentially terminal missions.
  • Balanda is panicked at not being considered for Mother Superior succession, and Odrade crushes her hope with deadpan clarity.
  • Shiana is ordered to share (and thus reveal) all her secrets with Tamerlane via memory-sharing, sparking paranoia but ultimately accepted.

Chapter 35: Agony Day – Mirbella’s Trial

• The agony will happen on the no-ship, and Duncan Idaho will be present—breaking all traditional rules.
• Internal debates swirl about whether allowing Duncan, a man, into the process is wise.
  • Quote: "No man barring the damned Queezas Haderach himself and his tyrant son had ever known the particulars of this Bene Gesserit secret." – Leo quoting the text [19:39]
• Odrade’s logic: Duncan’s presence and his love for Merbella may be necessary to anchor her survival.
• Full description of Mirbella’s inner experience in the agony—the pain and psychological breaking and remaking. Frank Herbert’s writing here is praised for "poetry and prose" that make the agony both relatable and harrowing.
  • "It's handling it with this poetry and this prose that I think is just spectacular." – Leo [23:45]
• Duncan’s presence serves as both torture and ultimately salvation; his touch keeps Merbella tethered to life.
  • Quote: "His interferences through her perspective... every gentle caress is this thing where she's going, 'Damn you, stop it. Let me fade.' But then in retrospect, she's going, 'Oh my gosh, he saved me.'" – Leo [27:55]
• Mirbella survives—awakening as a full Reverend Mother, but what felt like the ultimate reward (Other Memory) lands with a "bittersweet, even anticlimactic" note.

Chapter 36: Waking Up Different – The Fallout from Agony

• Duncan and Mirbella, post-agony, spend time together; Duncan is pained as he senses her drifting away due to new Bene Gesserit abilities and priorities.
  • "He realizes he could even come to dislike her. Yeah, like soul-shattering line insane." – Leo [33:46]
• Mirbella, through Other Memory, confirms the Honored Matres are descended from Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit scattered after Leto II. This is a major plot revelation.
  • Quote: "Fish Speaker democracy became Honored Matre autocracy. No more doubts." – Leo quoting Frank [34:14]
• Duncan experiences visionary "downloads" of advanced weapon concepts; catches a two-way glimpse of a mysterious elderly couple in his mind’s "shimmering net."
• Revelation: Duncan will lose Mirbella one way or another—she is moving beyond him, a realization textured with sadness and inevitability.

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Takeaway Feature – The Nature of Love in Dune

[39:38–56:42]

"What is Love? Baby Don’t Hurt Me, Don’t Hurt Me, No More."

• Odrade critiques the Bene Gesserit’s cold stance on love, arguing that suppressing emotion is fundamentally a weakness, not a strength.
  • Quote: "Suppressing emotions is a weakness." – Odrade [41:34]
• Shiana: "If we won’t bend, we can break." The old guard’s rigidity threatens their survival.
• Lunch scene at the hall becomes a subtle battle of tradition vs. evolving views.
  • Balanda brings Odrade food, unconsciously acting out a kind of love she claims to reject:
    • "Is feeding people not considered an act of love? Hello." – Leo [43:59]
• Food as a motif: Divides between the traditional, utilitarian Bene Gesserit approach (nutrition above pleasure) and the Honored Matres’ hedonism are mirrored in their relationship to food—echoing their diverging relationship to love and humanity itself.
• Frank’s argument: Love is intrinsic to being human and resists institutional erasure. The Bene Gesserit, for all their calculation, are still human—love survives even in their small actions and daily routines.
  • Quote: "The very essence of the Bene Gesserit was concealed in loves... Why else work for the perfectibility of humankind?" – Odrade [51:38]
• The act of sharing Other Memory is framed as an ultimate act of love and trust—beautifully captured in Tamerlane’s affirmation to Shiana:
  • Quote: "It's all right, dear. We all have these fears and sometimes do foolish things because of them. But I am pleased to call you sister." — Tamerlane [53:38]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Podcast Humor: "If that Squarespace money is good enough, I'm selling out, folks. I'm just going to be totally honest." – Abu [00:49]
• On the oddity of the agony:
  • "When your kids start finishing each other's sentences, I'm like, no. Get out of the house, demons." – Leo [18:58]
• "Love is pain and beauty and a reason to live and a million other things." – Abu [29:09]
• Philosophical: "Love is the noble purpose of the Bene Gesserit, and you’ve lost sight of that." – Leo [52:50]
• Endearing: "Find you a Tamerlane in your life, you know?... Let that moment find me in my life a thousand times." – Leo [54:01]
• Running joke: "Let me see that L on your forehead for love. That’s what it stands for." – Abu & Leo [56:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chapter 34 summary (Odrade’s announcements, prepping for convocation, backup plans): [04:46–15:34]
• Void/Statue symbolism discussion: [13:49–16:47]
• Chapter 35 summary (Agony ceremony & aftermath): [16:53–31:13]
• Chapter 36 summary (Duncan & Mirbella, Honored Matres origins, weapon visions): [32:01–38:19]
• Takeaway: Love in Dune and Bene Gesserit hypocrisy: [39:38–56:42]
• Spice Morsels (Weapons/Bouillabaisse lore): [58:00–73:38]

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Spice Morsels

1. Deadly Dust & Bacteriologicals [58:00–66:23]

• "Deadly dust" likely refers to radiological or "salted" nuclear weapons, designed to maximize fallout and render land uninhabitable.
• "Bacteriologicals" are biological weapons—historically documented in gruesome military use (especially by Japan in WWII). Despite treaties, such weapons are near impossible to eliminate.

2. Bouillabaisse – More Than Soup [66:23–73:38]

• Bouillabaisse (French fish stew) features centrally as a metaphor for heritage, love, and communal survival in the Bene Gesserit lunch hall.
  • Quote: "Its origins were planted deeply in love. The wife at home using that part of the day's catch her husband could not sell." – Abu paraphrasing Herbert [70:53]
• Real-world lore: The recipe is protected by a food charter in Provence; only certain fish may be used, aligning with the Dune theme of tradition meeting adaptation.

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Memorable Moments

• Odrade’s diss on Balanda: "You were never in the running. Eat more of your fish stew. You look like an idiot right now." – Leo [10:51]
• On backup plans: "It's called a redundant backup. I got it airdropped up more than one person." – Abu [11:12]
• Lighthearted mocking of podcast sponsorship tropes: "That, as far as I am concerned, is the insurification of a podcast." – Abu [00:26]
• The running stew joke: "Balanda bringing Odrade her plate... What is that if not, like, a historic continuation of, like, maternal caring, love and nurturing?" – Leo [44:00]

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Conclusion

The episode masterfully synthesizes the high-stakes events of Chapterhouse Dune’s climactic chapters with a nuanced philosophical exploration of love, trust, and identity within both the Bene Gesserit and the wider Dune universe. Through rich discussion, detailed plot analysis, and carefully selected quotes, Abu and Leo embody what makes Gom Jabbar a stand-out in the Dune podcasting sphere—thoughtful, funny, and deeply engaged with the text.

Next reading assignment: Chapters 37-39 (or up to the passage: "They've already sent us a message, Tam, putting us up in second class hostelry. And I have responded.")

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For Weekly Listeners and Dune Fans:

• Essential listening/takeaways: Odrade and the Bene Gesserit at a crossroads, Merbella’s rite of passage, the sisterhood’s struggle with love versus tradition, and the poignant motif of communal meals and memory.

As always: "Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe."

Transcript

[Abu]

If history had any repetitive patterns, here was one. A drumbeat of repetition.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

First, a podcast masked in the lie that it was the only way to dive deep on a niche topic. Then, the accumulation of episodes in places where listeners could not touch. And finally, a Squarespace sponsorship.

[Leo]

Truly a repetitive pattern. One that will never die.

[Abu]

One that will never die. That, as far as I am concerned, is the insurification of a podcast. You know, you slowly start paywalling everything. You'll, you, your listeners are like, where do I listen to you? And then you get the Squarespace sponsorship and then you sell out. Hopefully we'll never do that any ever with any of our work.

[Leo]

Yeah, but who's to say? I mean, maybe that's how bad things will get.

[Abu]

I mean, if that squarespace money is good enough, I'm selling out, folks. I'm just going to be totally honest.

[Leo]

I will take the money.

[Abu]

Yeah. So no promises, but.

[Leo]

No promises. But we'll do our best. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are getting back into the thick triple C thick chapters of Chapter House Dune in our book club series. Now, as always, before we get into the contents of today's episode, let's take care of some housekeeping. And as always, no spoilers for anything up to what we've read so far. So if you are are caught up with the reading, you are safe to listen today.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Reddin Greer, Brad Hutchins, Gavin Mohanrum and Roger Young folks, y' all are the reason we haven't sold out. Y' all keep us afloat so that we don't have to take that Squarespace sponsorship. So we don't have to take that Raid Shadow Legend sponsorship. Use code Gobja Bar.

[Leo]

Yeah, not a thing.

[Abu]

It's because of you that we can stay true to ourselves. And that honestly, I say this with no irony, that means the world to us. To be able to do this and stay stay true to our, our non capitalist beliefs. To the best of our abilities.

[Leo]

To the best of our abilities.

[Abu]

We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. But of course, our thank yous also extend to all of Our patrons at every level. Who builds the foundation upon which this show runs. We couldn't do this without you.

[Leo]

It's true. And hey, if you out there in listener land are like, I also don't want to hear Raid Shadow Legends sponsorships anymore, but I can't do monthly subscribing or whatever. Sure. We have a one time tip option. Buy me a coffee link that's in the show notes, so check that out. It's another way to support us and to help us stay out of Daddy Shadow Legends pockets, so to speak.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right, Father.

[Leo]

Father Shadow Legends.

[Abu]

Okay, that's the housekeeping out of the way. Y' all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We're gonna start by summarizing the assigned chapters for today. Then we're gonna dive deep into a takeaway and unpack some themes and ideas. And finally, we will wrap up by chomping down on some yummy spice morsels. We have two really good ones for you today. So before we get into all of that, folks, let's take a quick break. Prepare yourselves. We're diving back into chapter House in just a minute.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Refreshers contain caffeine. Copyright 2026, the Coca Cola Company. Sprite is a registered trademark of the Coca Cola Company. So good, so good, so good.

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's begin today's chapter summaries with chapter 34. And our first chapter today joins O' Draid as she visits the Reverend Mother only section of the lunch hall in central. Excellent detail from Frank. I love that. It's like that's where the mysterious leaders dine. Spectacular, right? And we are about 20 days into the hundred before her meeting with the Spider Queen. And there are still so many to do. List items to get done. Her checklist is not yet fully checked off.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, along those lines, she is shortly joined by everyone's favorite checklist checker, Balanda, on whom she drops a massive revelation she will soon be calling a convocation. Whoa. We don't really get told what exactly this is, but between Balanda's shock and her follow up questions, we get kind of an idea. Before the Junction mission, at some point, Odrade will summon every single member of the Bene Gesserit to meet. Wow. Something that hasn't happened since, I don't know, the death of the God Emperor Leto to write in 1500 ish years ago. Yeah.

[Ad Voice]

Remember?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

No, you don't. It was 1500 years ago.

[Leo]

No one does except for the Bene Gesserit. And again, I was going to say I'm shocked that they even remember what it is, but of course, a mentat archivist but, like, belonged is like, oh, that's fucking great. That hasn't happened in 1500 years. What the fuck are you talking about? Oh, Dre, it's like, it's my right. It's my right. I can do it anytime, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, furthermore, because traveling between planets right now kind of fucking sucks, and it's a huge risk for the people on Chapter House, none other than the Tooge will stand in for every non present Benny Desert member who's not on the planet. Now, Belanda has barely had time to wrap her cranky old head around that when Odre drops another insane bomb, Merbella will very soon face the agony. I also love the way she did that. Balanda's like, so, is Merbella gonna attend this convocation and she's gonna be able to vote as an acolyte? That's kind of already pretty contentious.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And o' Draid's like, no, no, she'll probably be a Reverend Mother by then. We're putting her through the agony.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So much sooner than Balanda thought. Mirbella is going to go through the spice agony. Time is of the essence. These are the final hours. This is the time for the hail is we are going go, go, go. Right, so Tamerlane and Shiana join them and are fully 100 unbothered by O' Draid's plans. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And instead they're focused on whether Mirbela's efficient walking style is problematic. I thought this was so Benny Jesuit to the T. Yeah, like the. So the idea of, like, she doesn't waste any energy when she walks. Do you think that's a Problem for, like, her life.

[Abu]

What does that say about her?

[Leo]

What does that say about, oh, my God, a little bit like my mother in law. But nevertheless, they realize, you know, this is not going to be solved by us just, like, speculating. So let's put her through the agony. We'll figure it out. We'll. We'll see one way or the other. Right now, Belanda asks, oh, trade. Are we making a mistake? And she says it in kind of a peculiar way. And we get this shocking observation from Odrade, quote, something in the way this question was asked told o' draid that Belle had made a Mentat summation. She has seen what I intend, end quote. So Balanda knows. She knows now the plan that we don't even necessarily know that much of. We haven't been told everything about it. Balanda now knows. Odre knows that she knows. And the question is now whether or not Palanda is going to spill the beans too early to everyone else. And Odrade literally has a moment of, don't tell them, Belle. It's too early. It's too early to tell people.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And luckily for her, she doesn't. She doesn't seem interested in spilling the beans. And so the conversation turns briefly to the Bene Gesserit tendency to suppress emotion. Right now, the group breaks for food. Gets a little bit contentious, but they break for food. Balanda bringing Odrade her plate before they talk logistics around the strike on Junction. You know, we're sending women effectively to their deaths, including potentially, oh, trade. The Reverend Mother Superior who's going to be airdropping whose hard drives are we putting this backup data on? Because we're not sure.

[Abu]

Do we have time machine backups for all of these?

[Leo]

I hope so, because we're throwing this laptop into the Atlantic Ocean like there's no way we're getting it back. Right? That's kind of the topic of conversation now. Very quickly, Belanda brings Odrade her food, and we get this interesting perspective on the relationship that Bene Gesserit have with love. Like a whole new take on what the word love even means that we're going to unpack in our takeaways. So we're going to put a pin in that for now. But when it comes to airdropping, whose time machine backing up who? Right. The question is also, basically, who is going to go to Junction and also who is going to be fed to Futares? And Odrade makes the call. She says, okay, along with me, Tomalaine, pretty close to Death. Anyway, Tom Elaine's like, sick. Sounds great. And Dortugela, who's been there before also, who's been through quite a bit and I'm sure is.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Is like death. Yeah, I'll take it. Oh, I'm tired. That was a lot, lot of torture. Now, along those lines. Tammalaine is going to airdrop her memories to Shiana right now. Like at the table over lunch. Crazy. And later. Oh, Jade and the Tuj Jill airdrop to Balanda. Balanda. Also, by the way, at the news of this fucking panic, she's like, I'm not going to be the Reverend Mother Superior.

[Abu]

Trade's like, no, you're not, Jill.

[Leo]

That was never a consideration. I cannot stress this enough. You were never in the running. Eat more of your fish stew. You look like an idiot right now. She's like, I'm not qualified. Oh, trade's like hard. Agree. Yeah, very much. You're not.

[Abu]

It's called a redundant backup. I got it airdropped up more than one person.

[Leo]

Yeah, you're the shitty Seagate. I'm not gonna. We've got a western digital lined up. I'm not gonna waste it back up on a Seagate. Anyway, now at the news that Shiana is going to airdrop her memories right now to Tamlin because it's a two way street. She fucking panics. Yeah, she's got secrets. She's been withholding things from people this whole time. So she knows that the second she shares with Tamilane, everyone's gonna know everything. Or at least Tamlain's gonna know everything. And. And she doesn't trust that Tammalaine won't tell.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Ohrade orders it. She says you fucking have to go. So they do, and apparently. What did you think of this detail? The whole room feels it when it happens.

[Abu]

I missed that line.

[Leo]

They describe it as like a static electric thing that everyone in the room like perks up at and conversations die. Like the whole room goes silent when they share their. And I'm like, wow, Okay. I think I was bending toward like, this is not a super. Now it feels like a superpower.

[Abu]

Yeah, I guess my take is like, it's probably more a Bene Gesserit, like shared consciousness, sixth sense. Rather than everyone, like feels something physically in their body or something. I suspect, like when other memory is like uploaded, downloaded between sisters. Yeah. You know, like you feel a little tingle in the back of your brain a little bit. You're like, oh, something's happening nearby. Another memory.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think you might be Right. You know, people talk about the hair going up on the back of their necks and things like that. Or, you know, you walk into a church or like an old building, and you feel the kind of energy change. Maybe it's something like that.

[Abu]

Right, right.

[Leo]

So anyway, we get this thought from Odrade, which is so funny, it actually made me laugh out loud. Quote, tell us, Tam. Now, the idea that she's just sitting there like. And we got her Tameline, Tell on her. Tell on her. Tell us where she's. Snitch, snitch, snitch. Whole room, snitch, snitch. But tamely. But Tameline, yo, she's a real one, our girl. She's a G, yo. She'll go to prison. She'll go to prison for you. She's great. She's got. She's like, yeah, no, I'm not snitching. Snitches get stitches. That's what I've been told my whole life. It's an old Benny Jesuit axiom. So she just decides to keep Shanna's secrets, only saying that Odre taught her well. She kind of in code is like, listen, what you are worried about, you don't have to be worried about.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And that's all she'll say.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now the chapter ends as Odrade grasps this tenuous new form of trust in Shiana. Quote, if Tam accepts her, then I must. Tam would never betray our sisterhood, and Shiana would. Of all of us, Shiana most reveals the natural traits from our human roots. Still, I wish she had never created that statue she calls the Void. End quote. Now, I once again was like, I feel like I just keep forgetting what the Void is. Like, I know what it is. It's the statue. But I only remember our conversation around it. So I did another kind of dive on the image Internet just to see if there's, like, new ideas that we hadn't uncovered. And I found one that I thought was kind of interesting. In the chapter about the Void, there's this conversation about shaping and forming and manipulating. She's working with the material. And I saw a conversation that, in crafting the statue, Shiana is revealing her desire to shape and to form things by her own hands directly. And for someone like Odrade, who was thinking about putting Shiana on the literal altar of a new galactic religion, that's dangerous. You mean she's going to take the reins of power herself? Like the tyrant? Maybe she has the same kind of spark that Leto had and would become another Tyrant. If we gave her the right levers to pull. Maybe she's too eager to hold those reins to shape with her own hands. And I think that that is another interesting part of the Void. We talked a lot about it before, but I don't think we had mentioned that. I thought that was interesting.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think that's a good take on it. The whole thing with Shianna in this book in particular is that she isn't quite Bene Gesserit enough. Right. They've elevated her to Reverend Mother early. She's the youngest to ever do it. You know, this is very Anakin Skywalker coded. Shanna is Anakin Skywalker. Right? Like some sort have chosen one. We will give you the seat of master, but we won't give you the rank. Like there's questions about Shiana's willingness to fall in line, which we know she has pushed back against time and time again over the last decade of her time here with the Bene Gesserit. And so I think you're absolutely right. Like things like her painting of the sandworm in her quarters, all of these are expressions that are very un Bene Gesserit like. And that gives a pause when a dread is thinking, I've groomed her to be the next Mother Superior. Will that be a royal fuck up on my part?

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

Will she. Darth Vader as.

[Leo]

Anyway, Shiana, take care of this room of younglings. And I mean take care of. You know what I mean, you. No way that could be misinterpreted. Okay, bye. Shanna's like, I got your message loud and clear.

[Abu]

Loud and clear. Take care indeed.

[Leo]

Take care of them. I got it.

[Abu]

Okay, moving on to our next chapter. Chapter 35, folks, it's agony Day. It's the big day. It's finally come. We actually start this chapter not with Marbella, but back again with o' draid and Tamblylane and Shiana. And we're all hanging out in Odrade's office to discuss the order of ops for today. How is this agony going down? Because things are going to be a little different from your traditional Bene Gesserit sister agony ceremony.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What's interesting is Odrade is now observing that Tamerlane and Shiana, they're acting weird. They're acting as if one person in two bodies. Their shoulders are like touching as they lean. And look out the window, their lean is exactly the same.

[Leo]

So fucking spooky. Are you kidding me? This whole chapter freaked me out. I was like, get them out of the Room I don't want to deal with. Deal with one of them. The other one goes in your. Go to your room.

[Abu]

I didn't find it creepy at all, actually.

[Leo]

Really?

[Abu]

I found it quite endearing. I found it interesting that when you share this intimately with another person.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Your worldview is reshaped.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

And the two of you come closer. You know, like, if you share everything you are as a person and someone else downloads it, they will inevitably become a little bit more like you.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Like, isn't that what, like, love and partnership is like? Like when you find a lifelong partner and you spend 50 years of your life together, you become interdependent, codependent, and you begin to share each other's habits. And this is like an extreme version of that, where it's just an instant airdrop download situation. So I kind of found it endearing.

[Leo]

I found it very fascinating. Don't get me wrong. I think it's so interesting and I love. Even o' draid is like, this very seldom happens because usually people share memories in extremists, like at the moment of death where one of them's dying.

[Abu]

Right. Terrazzo. Dred.

[Leo]

Yeah. So very rarely do you get this situation where they're kind of alive after the fact. So even as a reverend mother, she's going, yeah, this doesn't happen very often. And that's interesting.

[Abu]

It's interesting. Yeah. She's observing the minutiae, and it's fascinating.

[Leo]

But the idea of them finishing each other's sentences while looking away, I'm like, no, no, no. Scary, Spooky. That's horror movie shit. When your kids start finishing each other's sentences, I'm like, no. Get out of the house, demons.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. They're, like, standing there like, red rum.

[Leo]

Red rum, Red.

[Abu]

Oh, this is worse than abomination. They're just quoting the Shining.

[Leo]

Stephen King, he's the greatest author.

[Abu]

Okay, now let's talk about rebellious agony, because as I said earlier, things are going to be a little bit different. The agony itself is going to take place on the no ship. And Duncan will be present in the room.

[Leo]

Crazy. Yeah.

[Abu]

You know, this gets Belinda's feathers all fucking ruffled. Well, we've never done it like this before. Quote, no man barring the damned Queezas Haderach himself and his tyrant son had ever known the particulars of this Bene Gesserit secret. End quote.

[Leo]

It's in the book. It's written out. It's crazy. Yeah. Right?

[Abu]

So, I mean, Belinda, of course, the traditionalist, she wants to do things by the books, as we've always done them. And things are going to be different with Marbella here. Duncan will be present because o', Draid, whose logic is sound to be clear, argues that Duncan and Marella's love could be a catalyst to help Mella survive this extremely dangerous ceremony.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Duncan being there could successfully get her through to the other side, which is the outcome they want. They're not here trying to kill Marbella. They want Merbella to become a Reverend Mother. It is, in fact, critical to Odrade's schemes in this entire book for Merbella to convert to Bene Gesserit and become a Reverend Mother. So of course she's gonna allow for some non traditional things to take place, like a man being in the room to maximize the possibility of the best outcome.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also, Odrade is someone whose own love as sea child has kept her grounded throughout many trials and tribulations. She recognizes that these other women who maybe don't have that same experience are seeing the love as a threat, when for her, it's been her, like, anchor that saved her time and time again. And as we'll see, she ends up being the wise one in this situation.

[Abu]

Exactly. Exactly. Okay, enough planning, enough talking. Let's do it, folks. Agony time. We now switch perspective over to Mirbela, where she is preparing for the agony. No one told her this was happening. She's just being walked to a room. But it's clear from the vibes. She's picking up on the vibes from everybody. It's clear that it's go time. This is it. The thing that she has been training for.

[Leo]

When you walk into the classroom and the teacher has, like, a different energy about them, you're like, oh, yeah. Oh, the test is today, isn't it? Oh, shit.

[Abu]

God damn it.

[Leo]

I might literally die.

[Abu]

Right? This is a extreme version of a pop quiz, for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The agony then commences, and we really need to give Frank his flowers here because I think we both felt that this was such excellent writing.

[Leo]

So good.

[Abu]

Frank does such an amazing job painting a thing that none of us can really imagine or relate to. Right. None of us has gone through the spice agony like these Bene Gessert sisters do. It's also something we've heard about for six books now. And so this is kind of critical, right? It's like, yeah, what actually happens in the agony? We saw Lady Jessica maybe go through a version of it, a minor version of it, but the True spice agony that the Reverend Mothers undergo has always been hinted at, and now we get to see it. And I think Frank knocks it out of the park, describing how painful and genuinely awful and disorienting the whole experience is for Rebella. How her psyche, her sense of self, her worldview, everything is completely shattered. Has to be reshaped back together.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think it's worth remembering that, like, Jessica is a Bene Gesserit through and through. She's received the training. Yes. She was assigned to be the concubine to Duke Leto. So maybe she wasn't really intended to go through the agony at any point. And then it kind of happened that she did out in the wild. But, like, I think the thing with Mirbella is that she's much more someone who's almost more relatable to us as the common person. Not that she's by any means common, but that she has more of that non Bene Gesser.

[Abu]

An outsider.

[Leo]

Exactly. She's an outsider. The last few days, I've been talking to my wife about how much I loved this chapter of this book. And she, of course, hasn't read this book in years. So she has no idea what I'm talking about. But the point of, like, I think that there are books especially. You've read the Fourth Wing series.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

There's a torture sequence in that series that I. That just makes. It pisses me off. It feels lazy. It feels low hanging. It feels easy to be like, here's how the pain and the. Oh, she hurt. Stomach churned and she felt vomit. Boy, you know, all that, like, gross shock factor stuff. Frank dodges all of it, but still gives us a sense of, like, someone really reeling. Like, this is the most pain I've ever. I didn't even know you could feel this much pain in every cell of my body. And it's like he's handling it with this poetry and this prose that I think is just spectacular. And yet we still come away from this chapter. Like, fuck that. I don't want to do that. I couldn't do it. Yeah, I'd be. I'd be like her. I'd be like, oh, easy way out. I'm going to disassociate and die by world. Bye, everyone. You know?

[Abu]

Yeah, really spectacular stuff. This chapter, I think, is a highlight of the book for sure. And I completely agree with you that Frank dodges the sort of gross body horror, physical aspect of agony, of pain that so many writers and so many stories lean into. This is sort of the Dumbledore vs. Voldemort disagreement that they have in the Harry Potter series, where Voldemort imagines death and bodily torture, like the Crucio Curse is the worst thing you can do to somebody. And Dumbledore recognizes actually the most pain you can ever experience in your life happens in here in your head, and it happens in here in your heart. Those are the two places where you can really damage a person. Physical pain is physical pain. And just like you're saying this chapter, this agony, we experience what's going on inside Mirbella's head. And there are not a ton of descriptions of, like, her body. Body was writhing and the sisters were

[Leo]

holding her wrists down and she was nearly snapping.

[Abu]

And muscle, you know, bubble muscles, like, at the. There was no, like, you know, veins popping in her neck or something like.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

No physical descriptions of physical. Which we can. We can assume she is undergoing. But, yeah, really, the real torturous stuff is happening inside her mind, inside her psyche. Yeah. Now back to the agony. A couple of key moments that take place before, of course, Duncan is able to help her out of. But during her suffering, Mirbella hears many voices as she begins to tap into other memory. And then her quote, mohallata, the one who steers you clear of the destroyers, end quote. The voice that helps you avoid abomination. And in case you have forgotten what moalata means earlier, we got a nice definition of it during Duncan and Balanda's tense discussion a few chapters ago. Back then, it was described as the, quote, union of benign other memory, protecting her from domination by malignant ancestors, end quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Which honestly sounds like what Genima did.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And I think that the biggest mistake that Bene Gesserit ever made with abomination is that it's possible for abomination, they just have to find that mojalada themselves, rather than maybe when you're older, it comes. It introduces. Hi, nice to meet you. I'm the guy who's going to keep you safe. Okay. Stay the fuck back. You know, like, that's when you're an adult. But maybe as a kid, it's kind of more of a roll of the dice.

[Abu]

Yes, absolutely. Great observation. So as the agony continues, Duncan pretty quickly joins her in the room. You know, Dre's like, duncan, get in here, get in here, get in here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And although Duncan, you know, is. It is helping. He's doing what he can. He's got, you know, hand on her cheek, he's shaking her shoulders, trying to get her to wake up and come out of this agony. From Rubella's perspective, this is all torturous stuff. Touch from Duncan, from her lover, is just reminding her how much physical pain she's also undergoing in addition to the psychological pain. Nevertheless, she does admit, once she does come out of the agony, that Duncan's presence and Duncan's touch was also an anchor for her in the worst moments of this agony, in the moments where she thought she was lost and was not going to be able to find her way, the reminder of Duncan being there was something that kept her going.

[Leo]

Yeah, this is another thing that Frank wrote so much without having to write it. We know Duncan's up at the top of the amphitheater and that he's only going to be allowed out of his seat. Right. Tammalaine literally restricts him. He's only going to be allowed down if he can help. And then it seems like within fucking seconds, he's like, hand on her cheek. So I imagine Odrade's in the room and they're like, begin the agony. Oh, fuck. Duncan. Duncan. Duncan, come here quickly. Get the fuck here, Duncan. And then the fact that we're getting his interferences through her perspective so directly that every gentle caress is this thing where she's going, damn you, stop it. Let me fade. What are you doing? But then in retrospect, she's going, oh, my gosh, he saved me. And it's such good writing. And I think Duncan's role in all of this was something that the more I thought about it, the more I was also, like, really appreciating Frank as a craftsperson as he plays out this really intense scene that the whole room is participating in. But we only get it from this narrow, very character focused lens, which is just excellent.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think the subtext here is also beautiful because at this point, we have to consider that Frank has lost his wife.

[Leo]

Oh, true.

[Abu]

And the subtext here about love is just really touching, that love can be a reason to live, to not fade. It can be the thing that draws you back, gives you perhaps reason to live. But it can also be extremely painful. Love is pain and beauty and a reason to live and a million other things. And so I think there's a lot of beautiful subtext here about love and partnership. I think Frank is exploring his own past relationships too, his own experiences with love.

[Leo]

What a great point. You know, you see, like, a photo of someone you've lost or you see something that they've left behind in your life, and it's like it hurts and it reminds you of the pain, but it's also the thing that anchors you to what's valuable in life and why we live and why we go out and make new connections and why we have friends and community and people. Oh, what a great point.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's beautiful stuff. Really loved this chapter. Again, this is a top three chapter in this book for me. Okay, well, we know Mirbella survives. Thankfully, she makes it through the agony. By the end of this chapter, she has awakened as a full reverend mother. O' Draid is overjoyed. She's fist pumping in the amphitheater up there. Like, yeah, yeah, you go.

[Leo]

She's got champagne, the Gatorade bucket on Blonda

[Abu]

for Rebella. Though, I found the bittersweet tone of the end of this chapter really interesting, because Mirbella wakes up and she's kind of like, okay, now what? Yeah, this kind of isn't what I was expecting. This, like, grail that she was promised, right? You're gonna unlock your other memories. You're gonna become a reverend mother, and boom, you know, you're gonna know how to do your taxes as soon as you turn 18.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Still 35.

[Abu]

It's still a guessing game, but, no, she's like, I. None of the glory, none of the transformation. None of the, like, aha, Eureka. Moment is happening for me. Is this right? Is this what this is supposed to feel like?

[Leo]

I also think we see Mirbella very quickly and aggressively dropping her innocence and her naivety. And that is a very visceral thing because she had these grand. Oh, my God, it's a superpower. It's going to be so cool. And even the acolytes who tell themselves, I'm sure the things, the same things, they see a little bit more of that balanced equation. For Mirbella, it was all pros, no cons. And now she's like, fuck this grail, this sacred grail that I now have in my mind. The glimpses I get of it, it's empty. What are we doing? That's crazy. Again, just excellent. Excellent love.

[Abu]

Excellent stuff.

[Leo]

Love it. Yeah. I was going to say this is a top three chapter for me also, but I think the top three chapters for me all have Claire B. In them, so it has to be, like, top 10.

[Abu]

Oh, well, he's getting cyborg right now. You know, he's also going through his own agony.

[Leo]

Cyborg him. Okay, well, that carries us into our final chapter today. And our final chapter joins Duncan and Marbella in the no ship. They are in bed. And since her awakening, they've spent as much time together as possible. But she's got new responsibilities. And as he suspected, her new abilities are slowly but surely creating distance between them. Mirbella has entered what o' Draid assures him is a very common stage with people who've gone through the Spice Agony. She has this sort of like, manic energy. Like, holy, my head's full of knowledge that I didn't have access to before. Oh, my God. I. I can tell you all about how to do taxes now. Oh, there's 1099 NEC forms, there's W2S. But then sometimes you have to schedule C. Itemized deductions are possible if you're a contract. It's incredible and it's this whole rambling thing. And sure enough, they're like, laying in the darkness. And she's just like, Duncan, I use TurboTax, but I don't even need to use the autofill feature. Do it all manually. He snaps at her. Yeah, he's like, listen, it's. It's like two in the morning. This is a lot. And he realizes really shockingly and again, brutally sad when you start thinking about how so much of the book has been dedicated to telling us about this deep, unending love between them. He realizes he could even come to dislike her. Yeah, like soul shattering line insane. And also difficult to see Duncan get genuinely so upset that he's losing her. And again, his sort of like, worst fears are coming to fruition in his sense.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

As a side note, Mirbella's slowly unraveling other memories confirm another theory about the Honored Matre. For the commaes listening in, but also for Duncan and also for us as a reader. Quote fish speakers. That was the revelation. The Bene Gesserit absorbed with fascination, they had suspected, but Mirbela gave them confirmation. Fish Speaker. Democracy became Honored Matre. Autocracy. No more doubts. End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Now, I'm sure we all immediately saw this coming. Frank was like, time to write about politics. And he rolled up both sleeves and he got a minor erection and he started writing and he started. And literally like paragraphs later, he's just talking about all of the different rules and the way that bureaucracies work. And it's great, but also we're six books into it, so it's like, okay, okay, he's on his boat, his box again. Great.

[Abu]

Yeah. And I mean, in addition to the, the politics stuff, which, yes, Frank getting on his soapbox, talking about how democracies become autocracies, et cetera, et cetera, I really liked that. We also got more confirmation about the origins of the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

They are some sort of weird scattering amalgamation of fish speakers that went out there and Benny, Jess, Reverend Mothers that went out there and ultimately came back to become this threat that we now know as the Honored Mantres. I love these confirmations of origin points.

[Leo]

Yeah. And he doles them out in just like a very reserved cadence. He has built out quite a bit of the universe and he tells us when it is appropriate to. And it makes sense to. He's not one to give us a ton of expositional dump. Although there were those chapters in earlier books where it's like, and now the records of the Bene Gesserit telling us all about what's happened in the universe. Anyway, as the chapter continues, Duncan awakes from a restless dream about war plans and meetings with Odrade, which dude. Having stressful dreams about work. Same. We've all been there, been there. Now he rushes to his computer to shoot off some emails because it's really. It's kind of a vision of not only weapons that he knows and that exist, but also some weapons that don't exist yet or haven't been created yet. And he's going, how do I know how to miniaturize a Holtzman field? Like, where did that come from? That's not a thing. He wakes up from the dream. But then he continues to see this kind of weapons scroll in front of his eyes. He's got augmented vision. Smart glasses on now. How do I fucking close a window? Where do I pinch? What do I tap? It's really. It's an interesting extension of these mysterious powers that he has as this Duncan, basically. And this is. I'm glad you pulled this quote, because I think this really drives home how important some of these realizations are. Quote, specifications for new devices. There it was in delicate detail, a way to miniaturize Holtzmann generators. Two centimeters, no more, and much cheaper. Incredible. Cool. End quote.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And as he continues to examine these, like, present with him in waking moment, like memories and visions, he once again goes to the shimmering net where he sees this elderly couple. And this time the man is like, hey, stop it. He's literally says, quote, stop spying on us. End quote.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Duncan's like, what the fuck is happening?

[Abu]

I didn't know this was two way.

[Leo]

This is a two way call. I'm not dressed. Dude. You could have told me I was on camera. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Again, very mysterious, very cool. Another important piece here is these miniaturized Holtzman generators give them a missing piece to a war tactic that might give them the leading edge against the honor mantra.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

So he is shooting off emails. He's like, bcc, you know, okay, she should probably get it. She should probably get it. He's like, at all Bene Gesserit. We need to know this asap.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now the chapter ends on a shaken Duncan Idaho as his train of mentat thought also leads to a major realization about O trade's scheme and the unavoidable truth, quote, he would lose Merbella one way or another. End quote. Whoo.

[Abu]

All right, folks, those are the chapter summaries for today's three excellent chapters. Yeah, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're getting into our takeaway and talking about love.

[Leo]

Ooh, love.

[Abu]

We'll see you in a minute.

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Our takeaway today is what is love? Baby, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me no more. Yeah. In our first chapter today, o' Draid reflects on how deeply naive Bene Gesserit teachings around love truly are and how much they just fucking miss the point. Some of this gets a bit semantic, but we thought it was super, super interesting, especially coming from the Reverend Mother Superior. And we see an interesting dynamic during their lunch meeting where Balanda and Tamerlane are kind of representing the old guard traditionalist view, right? Love is just romantic attachment. It means that you no longer prioritize the Bene Gesserit. It means that you are compromised. It's a threat. It's dangerous, right? Meanwhile, O'Drade and Shiana are advocating on Almost a new take on love and emotion.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And along those lines, we wanted to talk about it today. Kind of break down what they say and how it affects maybe our broad thesis on love in Dune. Yeah.

[Abu]

Let's start with this moment at the lunch table where Balanda brings up Duncan and Shiana's secret communications. It's clear from Balanda's questioning that she is still suspicious about why all of that was going down. Apparently, at some point off page, she had been given an explanation from o' Draid of the Mother Superior herself. Shiana is sitting in on the council these days, so there's some sort of approval there. But Belanda, clearly not satisfied by the explanations she was given. And she wants more.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

O' Draid herself thinks, oh, she's still skeptical of Duncan's emotional bias. O' Draid responds to Balanda's questioning with what is basically the thesis of her entire schemes in this book. Quote, suppressing emotions is a weakness.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

End quote. Which, coming from the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, is kind of

[Leo]

a huge statement, kind of radical. I'm sure all of the other. The Reverend Mother is eating lunch were like, to mouth like.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Did she say what I thought she said? It was kind of a crazy take from our boss. Okay. Yeah. It's like, your CEO is like, shareholder value doesn't matter. And you're like, I'm sorry, that's crazy.

[Abu]

That's crazy. I mean, I kind of agree, but that's crazy.

[Leo]

I've kind of quietly thought that this whole time, but I didn't want to be the one to say it. That's wild. Do you have a sea child, too? I also have a seat. Holy.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Should we go swimming to the beach day? Oh, it's a desert now.

[Abu]

Oh. So Odrade makes this dramatic statement to Balanda, and Shiana immediately backs her up. Shiana says, quote, if we won't bend, we can break. End quote. Essentially, the dogma that we have been so rigid about for millennia isn't what's going to save us anymore. In fact, it might be the thing that breaks us. We need to be more flexible. We need to be more open to love. We need to be more open to emotions, things that countless Bene Gesserit for countless generations have been taught to suppress and avoid. This tense moment is then broken up by food. They're like, wait a second. Let's go get. Let's grab some of this stew, folks. We should eat. Tammalaine herself sort of interjects and she's like, all right, come on, everybody, get the stew. Let's go. And what's interesting is even this interruption further illustrates the picture that Frank is painting here. This divide between the old guard view, the traditional view, the Balanda temple camp, and this new vision that Odrade and Shanna are trying to paint. This vision of the future, a different future.

[Leo]

Frank has so many good chapters where it's so subtle. All the shit's so subtle. So let's talk about how this scene plays out and the subtext at play. So it begins. Odrade is brought her food by Balanda. Balanda's like, oh, if you're not going to get your own food, here's I brought you your food, okay. And plays it off as nothing. Also, it's like a heaping portion of bread and it's like. It's like a lot of. It's like, delicious looking. It's great.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And she asks, completely blind to her own actions, quote, you're not going to suggest we love one another or some such debilitating nonsense? End quote. Okay, Blonda. Yeah, we get it. And, oh, trade ignores the question, obviously, and simply, thanks, Balanda, for, like, hey, thanks for getting my food. Oh, like. Like, that speaks volumes. Is feeding people not considered an act of love? Hello. The. The nutritional balance. The chefs are in there making sure that every Reverend Mother's, like, nutritional needs are taken care of. What is that if not, like, a historic continuation of, like, maternal caring, love and nurturing? Right?

[Abu]

Yes. Yeah.

[Leo]

Your actions, Belinda, speaks so much louder than your words. That's impressive because you shout constantly, belanda, bring it down. It's a quiet room. You're yelling, right? Right now. We immediately see Belanda dig into her traditionalist views when Shiana is like, gets it. Shiana's on the same wavelength as Odrade here. She goes, oh, this stew is delicious. Yeah, Love a good boulevard, you know? And Belinda quote, It's all right. Three stars, 3.5 stars. Yeah. And it's like, no complaints. Oh, fuck you. Give us a five then, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Help out a small restaurant. So we also dig into this a little bit because food in this book has been such a repeated motif used to signify how far removed the sisterhood has become from basic human pleasures. Something that, strangely, counterintuitively, the honored matre are fucking killing. They get the beans and the garlic in their recipes. The Bene Gesserit out here with, like, overcooked ham, and they're like, ugh, it tastes terrible. They've removed themselves from even just the simple human pleasures. Labeling it, you know, debilitating nonsense.

[Abu]

Right. Or even if it is delicious, what matters more is that it is nutritionally balanced. So it's even just more of a worldview. It's not that they're like, we have to eat slop all the time. We have, like, eating has to be painful. They're eating a delicious stew right now. It's not that they are, like, torturing

[Leo]

themselves to eat nutritional gruel or whatever.

[Abu]

Yeah. But it's more of a mindset. It's more of a worldview. They are forcing themselves to always make sure it's nutritionally balanced. And maybe, you know, in order to make it perfectly nutritionally balanced, it's a little overcooked. It still tastes good, but it's a little overcooked.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Whereas the priority for the honored matre is this has to be the most delicious thing in the world. I don't care how unhealthy it is. And I think it's, like, not so binary as black and white. One side is doing it right, one side is doing it wrong. The honor matre view is bad. To never care about the nutrition of what you're putting in your body. On the flip side, to only care about the nutrition you're putting in your body and not take pleasure in the little sweet treat here and there or whatever. That's also an extreme. It's two versions of an extreme. And that repeated motif comes up constantly in Heretics and Chapter House. It's clear that Frank is using food as way to explore these two extremes.

[Leo]

Yeah. And even in the microcosm of this scene, he draws the clear line in the sand of which sisters are for it and which ones are against it. Again, with each character representing Odrade and Shiana as kind of the new mindset open to change. And Balanda rejecting flavor and quality. She's like a glass of sherry with my fish. Why would I. No, no. Meanwhile, Tamilane's like, yeah, give me another glass.

[Abu]

Yeah. I found it interesting that, oh, Draid and Shiana are like, yum, Delicious stew. Thank you for bringing me. Bringing my. Thank you for bringing me my stew. Balanda and Blonda's like, it's all right, whatever. I don't care how it tastes. It's nutritionally good for me. And Tamlain doesn't comment at all. Tamlain here is completely neutral at this lunch meeting. And I find that really interesting because we see that Tamlane is exactly between the two extremes. There's The Balanda traditionalist view, the old guard. And then there's Shiana and o' Draid on the other side as. As the new guard, the new view of emotion and love. And Tameline is like, I'm open, let me hear your arguments.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Let's see which side I'm going to take.

[Leo]

Yeah. And that might also have to do with like Balanda's role in the Bene Gesserit is one as an archivist and as a mentat, she's to fall prey to more of the conservative tendency.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

Than someone like Tameline.

[Abu]

Great point. Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, this exchange leads Odrade's thoughts back to love. And this is ultimately what brought up this takeaway for us today. Quote, the love the Bene Gesserit tried to deny was everywhere. O' Draid thought in small things and big. How many ways there were to prepare delectable life sustaining foods. Recipes that really were embodiments of love's old and new. Fucking excellent. I mean, the recipes that the chefs are using to sustain the women day after day. Three meals a day, presumably maybe five. I don't know their meal schedule. Point is, these are ones that exist in humanity because of millennia, thousands and thousands of years of families cooking for one another and coming up with new ways to enjoy and everything. Despite, like thousands of years of Bene Gesserit's training supposedly to suppress emotions and avoid love, they have also been fully unsuccessful in wiping out marks of love everywhere in their order. I also, we talked about like, is Amtal the theme of Dune? I kind of think, especially toward the end, that love becomes really the theme of Dune. It's Leto's weakness, starting with God, emperor of Dune. I think it's really central to what is power and what undermines power. And I think love is one of the most powerful things that Frank lifts up through his writing.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think that, put another way, I think Frank is making the argument here that love is an intrinsic part of being human. So much so that even these hyper skeptical, manipulative witches in the Bene Gesserit can't escape it, no matter how much they try.

[Abu]

Yeah. And I think along those lines, there's a bit of a silver lining here too, because looked at another way, the fact that they've not been able to eradicate love, that marks of love continue to show themselves within the sisters all throughout time, means that they haven't completely divorced themselves from their humanity. If love is intrinsic to being human, and the sisters still commit acts of love or feel Feelings of love means that they're still human. Even Icy, archivist, traditionalist, conservative, Balanda is capable of a loving act, like bringing a friend a bowl of steaming hot stew.

[Leo]

Yeah, she's just gonna do it in kind of a shitty way.

[Abu]

In kind of a shitty way. But it's proof that at her core, she's still human. Something innately in her still drives her to go, let me bring you food. Let me bring someone I'm close to food.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's so good.

[Abu]

And Odrade, she recognizes this glimmer of hope, because buried under all of this dogma and breeding plans and missionaria manipulation and politics, the reality is that love is at the core of being human. And thus love is at the core of the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. O' Draid thinks, quote, the very essence of the Bene Gesserit was concealed in loves. Why else minister to those unspoken needs humanity always carried? Why else work for the perfectibility of humankind? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, man. Just like, what are we even talking about when we say love? And, like, you can get into your head and be like, no, we refuse love because it's a weakness and it's an attachment, and, you know, longer. But at a certain point, you're just playing semantic games. And at the end of the day, the whole reason the Bene Gesserit does what it does is because they believe they can carve out a better future for humanity out of love.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Oh, I love it. I love it.

[Abu]

The answer to why are you doing any of this, dear Sisterhood is love, whether you acknowledge it or not.

[Leo]

And I think Leto would say that is the noble purpose of the Benning judgment. You have to rediscover that. Love is the noble purpose of the Bene Gesserit, and you've lost sight of that.

[Abu]

Yes, exactly.

[Leo]

Anyway, so to wrap up, all of these thoughts and themes are captured in the beautiful moment of sharing between Tomalaine and Shiana, a coming together of old guard and new guard, Right? The silent stew enjoyer and the one going, oh, my God, five stars. This place is great. Tamerlane's tender response after downloading Shiana's memories is spoken with such like a palpable affection and love quote. It's all right, dear. We all have these fears and sometimes do foolish things because of them. But I am pleased to call you sister. End quote.

[Abu]

That got me.

[Leo]

Oh, it's just. And also to hear that on the tail end of sharing your entirety with someone, and for them to just be like, I Am so proud to know you and to be associated with you. It's like, oh, let that love find me. Let that moment find me in my life a thousand times.

[Abu]

Find you a tablet in your life, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah. I've tried saying that to my bros in the hot tub, and it never lands quite the same, you know?

[Abu]

Right. They're all like, sandy Sweeney this, Sydney Sweeney that.

[Leo]

No, no, no, no.

[Abu]

Get me a table.

[Leo]

We all have fears and sometimes things. Yeah. I fear not. Get it with Sydney. Sweet. He hadn't. Shut up.

[Abu]

Shut up, bro.

[Leo]

Oh. Anyway, and. And listen, and the fact also that she chooses to keep Shiana's secrets, right? She doesn't say that and then immediately go anyway. So great. Shiana, she's been like X, Y, and Z. No, she accepts and loves Shiana for her scheming and her plotting. And she acknowledges it and says, okay, I'll be. You're a repository of everything. I am. I'll be a safe and secret repository of everything that you've got going on as well.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And at the end of the day, oh, Jade has to accept this. Not just because she trusts Tamerlane, but because this is also what she's fighting for. The kind of scary, uncertain tomorrow that relies on love, that relies on trust and relies on kind of a commonality between sisters. Not just. We need to always be watching the watchers who watch the watching. You know, it's like. You can't have. Like, it's. Yeah, but where are the. The spy cameras on the security room. You know, embrace love. Love yourself. Love for each other, love for humanity and for life. Like, that's what it's all about.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That's also why I'm sure the Van Gogh painting is so important to her and why she has these dances with the chef with the sherry and the. It's like. It's just. It's all love. And I. I really appreciate that. Frank uses this book series to give us these very palpable lessons and interesting perspectives on attachment. And, like, why are we doing any of it, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah. So there you go, folks. That's our sappy ass takeaway today about love.

[Leo]

Yeah. Sponsored by Hallmark. All right, there you go. Raid Shadow Legends. Not fucking Squarespace. But by just Big ol. Big L, Big L sponsors this. And that's not me. That's what I was called in high school. But no, now we're talking. Big love.

[Abu]

Big love. Right? Love. Yeah. Let me see that L on your forehead for love. Okay?

[Leo]

That's what it stands for. Yeah. That's why people do that.

[Abu]

That's why people like that. Yeah.

[Leo]

Love you, bro.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Love you. Hahaha. I love you so much.

[Abu]

When my bully in high school did that to me, I was like, love you too, man.

[Leo]

Yo, love you too.

[Abu]

Then I was stuck in a locker for an hour. But, you know, that's a different story.

[Leo]

He was keeping you safe. He was keeping you safe from the things outside of the locker.

[Abu]

There's our takeaway and what I think we believe is really the core message, in particular the core message of these latter books in the series where Frank is, yes, he's being political, yes, he's being philosophical, yes, he's talking about society and religion and manipulation and all of those things that he has been since the first book. But here in Heretics and Chapter House, what he's ultimately talking about, what he's really talking about is love.

[Leo]

So we are going to take one last quick break, but don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we've got some ooey gooey spice morsels for you, at least one of which is coming from the country I am now recording, in which I'm very excited about. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's wrap up today's episode by chomping down on some delicious spice morsels, one of which is literally a fish stew, and the other of which we'll talk us through. Now, let's talk about deadly dust and bacteriologicals. This is the less yummy one. This is actually kind of the horrific spice morsel, but it's interesting. So in our final chapter today, Duncan is experiencing that weapon scroll in his mind and he lists off a bunch of weapons. Some of them are familiar to us from Dune lore, others are new or phrases in terms we've not heard before. So we wanted to do some research on them. He thinks, quote, atomics. He saw big blasters and deadly dusts, lase guns, no counting the various models. Bacteriologicals. End quote. That's the stream of consciousness for Duncan. Obviously atomics comes up and we're like, yeah, cool, atomics. We remember that from the first book. Bombs, warheads, everyone kind of knows what's going on there. Deadly dust was something we had not come across. So hang tight, we're going to break that down in a second here. And then also, Bacteriologicals is somewhat self explanatory in the name itself, but we did some interesting research and we have some fun facts to share. Well, not so fun. Some terrible facts to share with you about Bacteriological. So yeah, let's do it. Yeah, let's start with deadly dust. What does Duncan mean when he thinks deadly dusts? Well, our research shows that he could be referencing one of two things or both things, either salted bombs or the more general category of radiological weapons. So salted bombs are a hypothetical that was proposed in the 1950s by Leo Szilard, no relation. And they involve adding basically additional elements to your standard run of the mill nuclear weapon to deliberately increase the fallout. Basically we want to nuke this area and then we want to make it uninhabitable because of the radiation. And the goal is to make it uninhabitable. The goal is to increase, maximize radiation. That's the idea of assaulted bomb. That's sort of the hypothetical behind it. The wider category of this type of weapon is known as radiological weapons, which are defined by the Department of Homeland Security as any device that is designed to spread radioactive material with the intent to do harm. So a common phrase that some of us might be familiar with is a dirty bomb quote unquote, which is just one type of radiological weapon. Although radiological weapons aren't only limited to bombs. You know, it's anything that releases radiation doesn't have to be something that goes boom. Notably, the dhs in their documentation about radiological weapons that I looked through, does not actually consider nuclear bombs to fall into this category to be a type of radiological weapon because of the intent. The intent of a nuke is to cause a huge explosion. The radiation is just a side effect of that explosion. It's not the main intent. So the DHS doesn't categorize it as primarily a radiological weapon.

[Leo]

The DHS is like you can throw a sword, it's not a projectile.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

It's like, right, it's here for a different.

[Abu]

It's going to do damage, sure, but it's not the same thing. That's a good analogy. Actually in the documentation, the DHS goes on to explain that actually, with current technology it would be quite difficult to create a radiological weapon that's deadly enough to cause immediate and mass harm to many people all at once. And instead, experts generally agree that this type of weapon, a radiological weapon, is probably going to be used more in small targeted instances, like trying to contaminate a particular facility or just simply using it as a scare tactic rather than some sort of like, weapon of mass destruction that causes mayhem and death all at once. Immediately. That, that's not necessarily what this type of weapon is used for. Now, moving on from radiological weapons, let's talk about bacteriologicals, which are also horrible. Bacteriologicals are defined by the United nations as weapons that, quote, disseminate disease causing organisms or toxins to harm or kill humans, animals or plants. End quote. Yeah, I looked into the history of bacteriologicals because I was like, okay, this sounds like a thing humans have been doing for a long time. And it turns out, yes, we've all been fucking with each other and killing each other for a long time. And using toxins and harmful diseases has always been part of the strategy, poisoning wells and such. But the first sort of official use of a bacteriological weapon that uses some sort of agent, like some sort of actual, like we have anthrax and now we're going to turn this anthrax into a thing that, into an anthrax bomb. That was done by the German army in World War I where they attempted to create and use the very first biological weapons of mass destruction. We're not just going to like poison a well in one village were causing a thing that will like, kill many people at once. The German army experimented with anthrax, like I said earlier, and with glanders as two agents in their potential weapons. This trend of exploring biological weaponry continued into World War II. The Japanese notably embarked on this like, large scale program to develop biological weapons in World War II and actually did horrifically use them during their conquest of China. I found this report on the history of bacteriologicals in the NIH Library of Medicine. And here's just a chilling quote about the Japanese use of these weapons that I found. Quote, during the war, the Japanese army poisoned more than 1,000 water wells in Chinese villages to study cholera and typhus outbreaks. Japanese planes dropped plague infested fleas over Chinese cities or distributed them by means of saboteurs in rice fields and along roads. Some of the epidemics they caused persisted for years and continued to kill more than 30,000 people in 1947, long after the Japanese had surrendered. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Abu]

Which is just royally fucked up. Of course, now you might be wondering, dear listener, you might be like, wow, this is horrible. We should not do this. Let's make some laws. And, yeah, laws exist. These weapons, international government biological weapons are strictly prohibited under international law by the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention, which bans not only their development, but their production, their acquisition, their stockpiling. It's just a big no, no. Don't fuck with biological weapons is the law.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Alas, here's the rub.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This type of law is basically unenforceable.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And that NIH report that I quoted from earlier went on to state, quote, as history tells us virtually no nation with the ability to develop weapons of mass destruction has abstained from doing so. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so disappointing, but also fair. I feel like, especially recently, we've seen this pattern of international laws really hard to enforce because it's like, okay, so so and so did something illegal internationally in that area. And you go, yeah, what happens now? And you go, well, we're going to shake our fingers at them for decades, probably. It's like, cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. It's one of those horrible situations where, you know, you could enforce and punish after a tragedy. Not really enough, given enough public support and outrage. But it is very hard to get ahead of the tragedy and be like, what are you doing in this lab? We're going to shut down the lab. It's like, it's easy to get around that sort of scrutiny. So there you go. Sorry about that depressing morsel. We have a nicer one coming up, but there's a. There's more than you ever wanted to know today, folks, about radiological weapons and bacteriologicals.

[Leo]

Well, if that was the appetizer, let's move on to the main course. The next morsel is Bula Base. Let's wash down that bacteriological, you know, wartime talk with some fish stew. And as someone who doesn't eat a lot of fish, that's unfortunate for me, but it's fine. In our first chapter today, a fish stew. Some somehow, like, took center stage during the chapter. Literally became a thing at first introduced by tomalaine quote, bulla base. We must eat the fish before our sea is gone. Not enough nolentropy storage. End quote. Right practical. The ocean's going away. We got a bunch of fish. Gotta eat it all. That's why we're having fish stew now. As always, we figured there'd be some deeper meaning to an offhanded remark. Sure enough, as we did our digging, it's clear that Frank made an intentional choice with the Bene Gesserit lunch menu. This chapter, so let's talk briefly about it. Boule base is a French soup originating in the region Provence. Provence. I guess Provence. Almost literally the opposite part of France to where I am this very minute. If I were to hop into our rental car, it would take almost 11 hours for me to drive there.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Which, if you know anything about the size of Europe, that's crazy, because most of the time you drive for two hours, you're in a new country. This is on the opposite side of France. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Now, from Explore Parts Unknown, Jill Pope provides this explanation of the soup's history. End quote. One thing, one thing not up for debate is the soup's modest origins. There's a consensus that this dish was born from necessity. Rustic fare made by boiling the rejects of the day's catch in salty seawater, seasoned with local olive oil, garlic and saffron. End quote. Now, thanks to a charter issued, a food charter issued in the 1980s, the ingredients of the soup is basically standardized. And just so you're clear, if you're in, like, Provence or you're in Marseille, if you're at, like a shitty touristy area, they might sell you bulabaisse. It's not the real stuff if it doesn't have the right ingredients. It's like the same rules basically around Champagne, except rather than being a federal government thing, it was like 11 restaurants that got together and they were like, we're protecting this local culinary tradition. Again, from Jill Pope's article, quote, the idea was to protect Boulebeis from being associated with the tourist trap version made from poor quality fish. The charter opens with a statement that it is impossible to standardize cooking. Yet it goes on to prescribe a list of possible ingredients, including fish species. A real boulevase must not deviate from this list and conform to strict service requirements, end quote. Okay, now I'm just going to put on my tinfoil hat for a second because that Bulla base charter was in 1980. This book, Frank didn't start writing it until after that. I'm gonna say he could have known about the Bula base charter. And thus my theory is that we now have canonical confirmation of some of the species of fish that you can find on chapter House. You're welcome. It's whatever you need to make bula base. It's like rockfish and a couple others. Whatever. Anyway, back to Dune. What we find notable about this choice is how Odrade's framing paints this ancient recipe as part of the pattern we talked about in our takeaway today as so ingrained in the humans who prepared it and the lives they lived. This soup recipe is inseparable from the people who are cooking it and eating it. It's a part of their life. It's a part of where they lived. It's just a part of humanity. She provides this context a page or two later. This bulla base so smoothly resortive on her tongue. Its origins were planted deeply in love. The wife at home using that part of the day's catch her husband could not sell. End quote. Just lovely stuff. Feeding the family with the product that you couldn't move at the market. Beautiful. It's tied to humanity in a thousand different ways.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So just wanted to end on this morsel because we think it's incredibly poetic that this rustic human meal from a small province of France, distant, distant past, at this point with the Honored Matre and the Reverend Mothers, is what brings these Reverend Mothers together. Except for Balanda. Fuck her like soup, I guess, as they attempt to save humanity from this existential threat of the oner Matre.

[Abu]

Wow. Do you have the charter in front of you? I'm very curious about the list of fish that are allowed in Bula Bays.

[Leo]

It has. Oh, gosh, let me translate this page. My French is not that good yet. The service is done from two different dishes. The broth is served separately. Another dish serves the fish. Has to be that way. If it's not that way, it's not bula based. Get it off your table. The official fish are the wrasse, the lively spider, the bile, the capron, and the white scray. I don't know if those names translated properly.

[Abu]

I've not caught any of those fish in Stardew Valley.

[Leo]

One looks a little bit like a rockfish, maybe Marine fish of the. Oh, yeah, it's just a. It's just a lively spider. Conger is a fish.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

I guess.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

And the capon. Additional. Additional ingredients are salt.

[Abu]

You can't just throw salmon. Pepper, I guess, is what I'm asking.

[Leo]

Not a bula base. If it's got.

[Abu]

For the real deal, bula base. Okay.

[Leo]

Fennel, saffron, parsley, olive oil, potatoes, garlic, tomatoes. And it should be served. Served with a sauce called a real. Basically like a mayonnaise that does actually Sounds really good. I will say. I also found a bunch of, like, Julia Childs wrote about it and a number of other, like, non French culinary people wrote about it. Half of them were like, this sucks. This sucks. Oh, it's gross.

[Abu]

Like, they don't like it.

[Leo]

Yeah, they're like, it's way too much garlic and saffron. It's like, you can't. I love everything else. It's so funny because some people were like, it's beautiful and authentic. Other people like, yo, that soup, I hated it. It was very divisive, apparently.

[Abu]

Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is, like, it sounds like from the history of the soup. Traditionally, it's just kind of like the leftover soup, right? It's like, yeah, well, what. Whatever we have on hand, after we're done selling our catch of the day, slap that into a soup and make it or whatever, you know, it's not like, the best juiciest fish we found is the one we're setting aside for the bula bays.

[Leo]

No.

[Abu]

So I. I think sort of like, culturally speaking, it's not meant to be the best dish.

[Leo]

I'm like, Michelin restaurants two I've been to, I'm like, sometimes slaps, sometimes it's like, oh, I paid how much for this?

[Abu]

Yeah, it's whatever. I'll get. The bula base at my local Olive Garden tastes about the same.

[Leo]

The McDonald's bill of base will do just fine for this guy.

[Abu]

All right, folks, those are our spice morsels. And that is our episode for today. Thank you so much for joining us on this journey. I hope it wasn't an agony for you. We have homework as we near the end of this book. Here's what you got to read next. For the next episode, make sure that you have read chapters 37, 38, and 39. Or if your copy of the book is slightly different from ours, then make sure you've read through the end of the chapter that ends on this passage quote. They've already sent us a message, Tam, putting us up in second class hostelry. And I have responded, end quote.

[Leo]

This is the chapter where they ignore the honored mantra and they just go on a little vacation to, like. Yeah. And they're like, oh, really?

[Abu]

Odrade puts on her best Karen hat and is like, let me speak to the manager.

[Leo]

Let me talk to the manager. Let me voice the manager, please. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you, as always, of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. The best ways the two best ways. One is to become a patron. Of course you get some. You get access to episodes with no ads. You get to join our cool Discord community and some other fun perks. And of course check out our dune themed swag at Gom Jabbar Shop. Those links are in our show notes. We really appreciate it and as always,

[Abu]

a reminder that we love to hear from you. So email us comjbarpodcastmail.com is the place to get in touch. Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us your homemade grandma's boulebe's recipe. Does she follow the charter or not? Let us know. And of course make sure you pay the pet tax. If you have a cute little critter as a family member, send us a picture. We love seeing all of your four legged and otherwise legged family members in those emails that you send. So gumdpodcastmail.com that's the place to get in touch and send us your thoughts and say hello.

[Leo]

Yeah, maybe you have a pet rockfish that didn't make the bula base soup today and it just became you got attached to it, you gave it a name, started talking back to you. It took you on a mystical adventure. It happens to all of us. Maybe that's your pet sentence of yeah. Also off to Gamont. I almost made a joke about them going to Gamont and then being pissed off that they got put in second rate. But canonically at this point Gamont's been captured and destroyed.

[Abu]

That is true. The honor mantra have captured and or destroyed Gamont. You would think actually Gamont would be one of the easiest places for them to capture given their sex powers.

[Leo]

You know, they roll into Nantucket, they're like wrap this shit up. We are doing it. Yeah,

[Abu]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the lar party podcast network on laurparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. And of course we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening and remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.

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[Leo]

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