Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 13)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 13) — June 12, 2026
Hosts: Abu & Leo

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Abu and Leo continue their meticulous read-through of Frank Herbert’s Chapterhouse: Dune, covering chapters 37–39. With the story entering its climax, the hosts break down crucial turning points: Odrade’s emotional farewell to the Bene Gesserit, dueling philosophies in a tense hideout, and the dangerous journey to Junction. The episode’s thematic spotlight is on “leveling drift”—a Bene Gesserit belief, explored deeply in the takeaway. The hosts also uncover religious and ecological morsels: the significance of a minyan and the reality of potash.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chapter Summaries & Analysis

Chapter 37: The Convocation

• Scene Setting: All the Bene Gesserit convene on Chapterhouse for “the convocation”—described humorously as a “sweaty, garlicky room” (05:05).
• Odrade’s Mood: She is sentimental and melancholic—a rare vulnerability for a Mother Superior.
  • Quote: "Odrade herself is feeling melancholic. Her thoughts are deeply sentimental and as...always very un-Bene Gesserit" – Leo (05:54)
• Purpose: Odrade announces plans to meet the Honored Matres' Spider Queen on Junction—a likely fatal mission. She shares memories with both Shiana and Murbella, symbolically positioning her successors. (06:44–07:10)
• Belonda’s Role: Gives updates, including on Scytale, but is cut short by Odrade’s decisive leadership. The tone shifts from bureaucratic to deeply personal.
• Teg's Update: Answers military questions, lays out the plan ("nuke 'em from orbit").
• Tone: The scene evokes “final goodbyes,” both for characters and symbolic of Herbert facing his own mortality.
  • Notable Quote: "I will miss this." – Odrade, read by Leo (08:52)
• Reflections: The hosts connect this to Herbert’s personal life, framing the chapter in light of loss and impending transition.

Chapter 38: Rebecca, the Rabbi, and Leveling Drift

• Characters: Rebecca and the Rabbi, hiding on Gammu with Joshua (the “MVP” for fixing the HVAC).
• Dialogue: The Rabbi challenges Rebecca’s new Bene Gesserit worldview; she appears fully indoctrinated, while he remains skeptical.
  • Rabbi questions: “Are these women self-deluded by dreams of their own importance?” (15:20)
  • Rebecca’s defense: “What they do is often boring, repetitious, but not evil.” (13:56)
• Subtext: Both characters demonstrate forms of dogma—Rebecca via inherited memory, the Rabbi via unyielding faith. Neither shows introspection, highlighting a warning on ideological extremes.
• Key Concept Introduced: "Leveling drift"—the Bene Gesserit belief that over time, extremes are sanded down towards the average.
  • Rebecca:
    • “They call it the leveling drift. They see it genetically and as instinct. Brilliant parents are likely to have children closer to the average, for example.” (16:20)
• Teaser: The hosts promise a deep dive on leveling drift later in the episode.

Chapter 39: Odrade’s Mission to Junction

• Final Preparations: Odrade is pestered by Belonda (“Belle, chill dog”) but sees through to the deeper emotional fear: this is a final farewell (18:16).
  • Odrade: "We don't have many more days together, Belle. And that's what's eating you." (17:46)
• Transfers of Memory: Odrade has shared with Murbella and Shiana—off-page, intensifying curiosity about Shiana’s plans.
  • Odrade on Shiana: "I cannot follow into your wild place, Shiana. My task is to produce order. I cannot risk what you have dared. There are different kinds of artistry. Yours repels me." (18:40)
• Journey: Odrade, Tam, and others board the no-ship, with famed bus driver/ghola Claribee at the helm—delighting the hosts, who imagine a Claribee/Duncan Idaho “buddy cop” book.
  • Claribee: “Blow up your ship pretty quickly because we really want to make a grand entrance. Don't wait too long.” (21:00)
• Arrival on Junction: They find the planet unchanged (key for tactical planning), are housed in a “shitty 2-star hotel,” and recognize all is staged propaganda. Odrade senses a trap and keeps her team on edge.
• Negotiation Begins: Odrade starts her psychological battle by discussing “creative anarchy is the way to survive in this universe” (28:11), signaling Bene Gesserit philosophy directly to the Honored Matres through coded conversation.
• Tension: The “battle of Junction” is underway, with words and ideology as the opening volley, not weapons.
  • Leo: “So characteristic of Frank’s writings that the first bullet...is words and politics.” (30:38)

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2. Takeaway: Leveling Drift

Definition: The Bene Gesserit view that extremes (be it individuals, innovations, or institutions) eventually revert toward societal averages due to social and genetic pressures.

Explanation & Real-World Parallels

• Rebecca’s Description:
  “They call it the leveling drift. They see it genetically and as instinct. Brilliant parents are likely to have children closer to the average, for example.” (32:29)
• Hosts’ Analysis:
  • The Bene Gesserit avoid direct rule to avoid being targeted for “leveling.”
  • They operate carefully within the mean, seeking influence without exposure.
  • Parallel drawn to regression toward the mean—a mathematical principle where statistical outliers revert toward average on subsequent measurement.
    • Example: If a company booms under exceptional circumstances (like Peloton during the COVID-19 pandemic), it will likely revert to “normal” levels once the anomaly passes (43:45).
• Bene Gesserit on God:
  • “They don't assume there is [a driftmaker], only that there is this observable movement.” (36:21)
  • Their thinking is empirical; there’s no evidence of divine guidance, just observable historical drift.
• Water Metaphors:
  • Rebecca likens the Sisterhood to sailors moving “across” historical currents, not fighting them—another Bene Gesserit value: subtlety over brute force (39:33).
• Contrast:
  • Honored Matres are disruptors, “cannonballing into the pool,” creating chaos and drawing attention—contrary to BG stealth.

Empirical Critique

• Abu: “I didn't find any research that backed up Frank's/Rebecca's assertion of the leveling drift...I found a lot of theories that point more toward human history being cyclical in its trends, rather than statistically average.” (51:20)
• The hosts cite theories (e.g., punctuated equilibrium, cliodynamics) which suggest cycles—growth, crisis, decay—rather than consistent regression to the mean.
• Personal Take:
  • Leo acknowledges some plausibility: “That Japanese saying: ‘the nail that sticks out gets hammered down’...there is a broad pattern probably of...humans as a species...want[ing] comfort and security...antithetical to the kind of bleeding edge of progress and innovation.” (54:36)
  • But both agree Frank Herbert may be soapboxing about taxes and lost innovation (57:52).

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3. Spice Morsels

1. The Minyan Explained

• Context: The Rabbi laments to Rebecca, “We don’t even have a minyan here.” (59:05)
• Research: A minyan is a quorum of ten Jewish adults required for certain religious rituals—these foster communal cohesion and depth in prayer/ceremony (59:39).
• Emotional Impact: The Rabbi’s distress at the absence of a minyan highlights the isolating, community-eroding effects of their situation.
  • Abu: “He’s having a hard time dealing with it...an interesting contrast to Rebecca, who has seemingly found a new community within her other memories.” (63:47)
• Literary Resonance: This motif is mirrored by Odrade’s farewell to the Bene Gesserit—a parallel sense of loss and isolation.

2. Potash and Fremen Mortuary Practices

• Textual Mention: Odrade contemplates a return to “Fremen mortuary practices, bodies rendered for water and potash.” (65:57)
• What is Potash?: Potash = group of potassium-bearing minerals used as fertilizer.
• Real-World Science:
  • Modern production involves mining or burning organic matter (e.g. kelp), not human bodies.
  • Human bodies contain little potassium (about 140g per adult), insufficient for large-scale fertilization needs (69:29).
  • Leo: “You gotta desiccate and like render two human bodies for your small plant bed. I feel like Frank didn’t do that math…” (69:30)
• Fun Fact: The word “potassium” derives from “potash.” (68:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I will miss this.” – Odrade, observing the Bene Gesserit at convocation (08:52)
• “Are these women self-deluded by dreams of their own importance?” – The Rabbi, challenging Rebecca (15:20)
• “Creative anarchy is the way to survive in this universe.” – Odrade, as a coded warning/negotiation gambit (28:11)
• [On the significance of minyan:] “It makes the Rabbi a bit more of a sympathetic character...This loss of community, this loss of cohesion is hitting the Rabbi really, really hard.” – Abu (63:29)
• “So characteristic of Frank’s writings that the first bullet...is words and politics. What a Dune moment, right?” – Leo (30:38)
• “[Leveling drift]...sounds like maybe Frank was disappointed in his kids.” – Leo, tongue-in-cheek (33:54)
• “[In the real world] it’s unlikely those extreme scores will be repeated on a second try.” – Abu, on regression to the mean (42:06)
• [On potash production:] “You gotta desiccate and like render two human bodies for your small plant bed...” – Leo (69:30)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Convocation, Chapter 37: 04:44–10:41
• Rebecca/Rabbi & Leveling Drift Introduced: 11:48–17:17
• Mission to Junction, Chapter 39: 17:23–30:18
• Takeaway: Leveling Drift Explored: 32:29–58:10
• Spice Morsels: Minyan: 59:05–64:36
• Spice Morsels: Potash: 64:36–70:29

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Episode Tone & Closing

The banter is irreverent, affectionate, and digressive, mixing sharp thematic insight with running jokes and off-kilter Dune fandom energy. The hosts blend humor (“bus driver Claribee is the true hero!”), self-deprecation, and heartfelt analysis (“This really hit for me, thinking of Frank losing Beverly and facing mortality…”).

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For First-Time and Returning Listeners

This episode makes an ideal jumping-in point for those interested in deeper Dune analysis, situating in-universe philosophy against real-world thinking, and contextualizing Herbert's life and mindset during writing. Even the most obscure references—like minyan or potash—are made accessible and meaningful, always with a side of sharp, character-driven wit.

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Next Week: Chapters 40–42; Read up to “they have a weapon we have not discovered.”

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Submit Q&A and join their Patreon for more Gom Jabbar.
Email: gomtrabarpodcastmail.com
Socials: @lore_party
Shop: gomjabbar.shop

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“Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.” – Gom Jabbar sign-off

Transcript

[A]

We are not podcast bros. We always rely on feedback from our listeners, never knowing where that may lead us.

[B]

Don't you think they should be giving us five stars whenever they listen to our podcast? At the very least.

[A]

Oh, they've already given us a rating, Abu. Putting us up in a second class podcast studio. And we are responding.

[B]

Damn right you're gonna get a politely yet firmly worded email from us at some point. If we remember, we might forget, actually.

[A]

Oh. Set a reminder. Right now, I'm going to set a reminder.

[B]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[A]

My name is Leo.

[B]

And Leo, we're getting on this ship and we're headed to Junction today because we're continuing our deep dive read through.

[A]

Who's driving the ship, Abu?

[B]

Well, you'll have to wait to find out.

[A]

It's my favorite character. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Before we get into it, let's take care of our housekeeping. Let's make Shoutout Mapes proud. And as usual, today will contain no spoilers for the book club. So if you are caught up with the reading assigned thus far into Chapter House Dune, you are safe to listen to today's episode.

[B]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderack level patrons. That's Daniel Dion, that's Seth Redden. Greer. That's Brad Hutches. That's Kevin Mohanrum, and that's Roger Young.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Folks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Here's your next mission. We're going to load you onto five ships. Okay?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We need you to take a bunch of reverend mothers to Junction, and then we need you to blow up the ships. But it's okay because we're going to turn you into Golas right after.

[A]

Yeah, let's list the Golas that have existed. You know, it's hate. It's. It's. It's Duncan Idaho a bunch of times. It's this bus driver.

[B]

That's right. Scytale.

[A]

It's Scytale. And now it's you. It's the Tleilaxu Masters. And it's you.

[B]

That's right. That's our way of saying thank you for supporting the show and truly helping us continue to do what we do. Of course, our heartfelt gratitude extends to all of our patrons at every level who build the foundation upon which this operation runs.

[A]

You know what? You all get a shit. But you do have to detonate it quickly because we're really trying to send a message here. Quick.

[B]

It's part of the plan.

[A]

Part of the plan. And listen, hey, if you can't become a monthly supporter, doesn't it sound great being a monthly supporter on Patreon? You get blown up. Don't forget that you can also support support us with a one time tip. That link is in our show notes. Also really a wonderful way to keep our lights on and to keep the business going. We really appreciate it.

[B]

All right, housekeeping out of the way. Y' all know the drill. We will start today's episode with a summary of the assigned chapters. Then we'll dive deep into a takeaway, breaking down some big themes and ideas within these chapters. And finally, we will wrap up today's episode by chomping down on some delicious spice morsels. So before we get into all of that, let's take a quick break, folks. Don't go anywhere. The mission to Junction begins in just a minute.

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[A]

Welcome back everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Kick off today's episode with a summary of chapter 37. Now, in our first chapter today, the convocation begins. Oh, get out your convocation merch your your sweater on your little pom pom

[B]

Big number one foam finger.

[A]

Oh, Dre. Oh, Drake. Now all of the Bene Gesserit on Chapter House have gathered into this one sweaty, garlicky room to hear the grave pronouncements of the Mother Superior. It sounds absolutely disgusting. Now, the mood in the room is understandably tense as odrade enters. It helps that her theme music was, like, blasting over the speakers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, that makes sense. Like, I don't love an all hands meeting at work, and especially when I haven't seen one on my calendar in, like, 1500 years.

[B]

Yeah. It's cause for concern. Yeah. You're like, what's up? Why are we having an all hands? Does this mean layoffs?

[A]

Is this layoffs? 20% of the bene Gesserit got laid off, but their stock prices have never been higher. So, you know.

[B]

Oh, so true. Shareholder value, baby.

[A]

Shareholder value. Odrade herself is feeling melancholic. Her thoughts are deeply sentimental and as. As kind of always very unbenny Jesuit as she takes in the view of her fellow sisters. All gathered.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Blonda steps up, takes the mic, gives some preemptory updates on Scytale and some other kind of useless matters. And when. Oh. J. Sees people's eyes glazing as they're like.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Mouths fall open and audible snores start coming from the auditorium. She cuts her short, she takes the mic, she goes, okay, it's my turn to spit some rhymes. O' Draid informs the room about the plan for her to meet with the Spider Queen on Junction. A meeting that she will not survive in all likelihood. Which is like a crazy way to start the meeting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because of that Odrade, the Reverend Mother Superior will share with multiple sisters before leaving, specifically Shiana and Merbella. Whoa. Which is crazy. This is a political gesture. Every Bene Gesserit in that room knows. This is the Reverend Mother Superior saying, I think either Shiana or Mirbella should lead when I'm dead. Wow. Which is huge. Nuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone's like, why? Why Merbella? She's like, who else knows the honored matre well? And everyone's like, that's right. Pretty good.

[B]

Such a good point. Damn it. I got no rebuttal.

[A]

No rebel. People are like, should. Do we have a rebuttal? Do you have a rebuttal? I don't have a rebuttal. That's a. That's a great point. Damn. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now she then signals to Teg. Teg steps forward on the shoulders of Streggy and answers some military questions. Damn this piping voice. He thinks he answers some military questions. Okay, so we're going to nuke them from Arbit. Nuke them from Arbit. Edward's gotta be Willy Willy. Impress.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And there are some concerns from the gathered sisters, but ultimately nobody objects because everyone can tell these are the best Plans they have in this moment of extreme tension, this existential threat.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Now, Odrade knows that basically the risky period of this meeting is over. The shit isn't gonna, like, super hit the fan once the room settles into this kind of expected murmur and kind of harmonious, you know, rabble of the sisterhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's the quote. Now, they fitted their speech into a pattern much like plain song and yet not quite a chant. Voices moved and flowed together. O' Draid always found this remarkable. No one directed the harmony. It happened because they were Bene Gesserit naturally. End quote. It's really beautiful. I have a really hard time picturing that. Like, is it just kind of. The Foley of their talking is very harmonious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

However, it appears o' Draid has this heartbreaking thought as she observes the room and answers some additional questions. Quote, I will miss this. End quote. Wow.

[B]

Such sentimentality. Yeah. From the Mother Superior. I will miss this.

[A]

I think it really helped frame all of this immediately in this visceral lens of she is never going to see this again. And this is. These are people she's never going to see again. Many of the people in the room she's going to have maybe a fleeting interaction with, but then she's gone and she's very likely going to die. And these are the people who she's been, like, you know, leading for a while now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These are people she's known probably her whole life, and she understands that this is also kind of a goodbye. The whole chapter really hit hard for me. You know, I was thinking about, like, Frank having lost Beverly and personally, like, leaving the US and moving to France. There's a lot of resonance there for me, and I think that line of I will miss this is just hits that much harder because of all of that. But I think it does a good job of framing our energy and kind of our expectations of Odrade as a. As a character. Now, now the convocation ends. You know, they pop the champagne bottles or however it ends. And as the chapter wraps up, Odrade's resolve is sol. The plans are in motion, the board is set, and there is no more turning back at this point. If ever there was, it is gone. And they are committed to the path. Her final thoughts in the chapter are nostalgic and reflective as she thinks about the places I will never go, the things I will never see, except as a reflection in the life of another. End quote. Woo.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Odrade.

[A]

O'. Draid. And also, I'm sure At this point, Frank grappling with his own mortality. Right. Like, I've had that thought where I travel and I see these great cities and great places, and you always think like, man, where have I not been? You know, where haven't I seen? And I think it's a perspective of an older writer.

[B]

Same. I also know how I'm going to be placing my poly market bets on whether o' Draid makes it out of this book alive.

[A]

Yeah, get on call.

[B]

I think after this chapter, I know where I'm putting my money.

[A]

Yeah, she seems to be kind of tipping the scales a bit. But, hey, listen, if you bet on her getting out alive, maybe you're going to come away a wealthy person. You could buy a house on Topeel.

[B]

That's true. Sometimes betting against the odds, you know,

[A]

it's the way to do it.

[B]

We don't advocate for betting. That shit is awful.

[A]

There goes those sponsorships.

[B]

Right? DraftKings is like unsend. That email we just sent them.

[A]

Those fuckers. We were going to offer them.

[B]

We were going to offer them a million gazillion dollars, and now we're going to offer them a lawsuit.

[A]

Listen, DraftKings, if you offer us a million gazillion dollars, we might. We might rethink. Just kidding. Kind of.

[B]

Yeah. My bar is certainly at a gazillion for selling my soul, so. Okay. Chapter 38. Continuing with our summary. In this next chapter, we rejoin Rebecca and the Rabbi, who are still in hiding on gamu. We have not checked in with these two characters in quite some time in this book.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. I fully forgot they existed. I know.

[B]

For a second I was like, whoa, they're still here. This chapter, though, is really short. And honestly, not a lot actually happens. Most of the chapter is just a discussion between a grumpy rabbi who is arguing with an increasingly annoyed Rebecca as our boy and the true hero of this book, Joshua fixes the H VAC system.

[A]

Dude. Mvp. Mvp. Joshua knows when to leave when it's getting awkward. Love, Joshua.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Joshua's lines in this chapter made me crack up every single time. Yeah, but regardless of the length of the chapter, I think we still have to give the Rabbi credit where credit is due, because through all of his fear and insecurity, he does voice some pretty pointed questions about the Bene Gesserit sisterhood that sound a lot like the existential questions that you and I have been asking on this podcast and that the book is asking the reader and that Odrade and Taraza have been asking about the sisterhood. So I think it's worth hitting on some key points from their argument here between Rebecca and the Rabbi. Yeah, so the dynamic between these two, I think is interesting because I think there's a. There's the text and then there's a certain layer of subtext here that adds a lot of depth. I think Rebecca, to me at least, comes off in this chapter as like a fully indoctrinated sister of the Bene Gesserit. She is unquestioningly accepting everything that her other memory is telling her. She says at one point, for example, quote, I speak from the viewpoint of the sisterhood, you made me help. What they do is often boring, repetitious, but not evil, end quote.

[A]

I think that's a fair and balanced point. To be fair. I mean, she's not condemning, right? I mean, ultimately, like, that's kind of the stance we've taken. Sometimes they're wrong and they're taking way too much power into their grubby little hands. But that doesn't mean that they're like evil doing evil shit for evil purposes, you know?

[B]

Yeah, well, I think I have some gentle pushback on that because this line made me think, well, you did assault a child in this book, so I don't know that we're calling it not evil, your actions not evil.

[A]

That's a bad look for sure.

[B]

You know, generally I agree with you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, Rebecca is learning about the sisterhood from her other memory and is digesting all of this much in the same way that Merbella is now that she has awakened. But Rebecca doesn't have that honored Matre side where she can question it. Rebecca is just like taking it all at face value, you know, whatever chat GBT is spitting out, she's like, yep, got it. That, that is the way. And then she's repeating these things to the Rabbi. And in an interesting way, the Rabbi is kind of pushing back in ways that maybe more sisters should occasionally in. In this conversation, the Rabbi of course comes off as this like, deeply insecure and closed minded person. But again, I gotta give him his flowers. I don't think his arguments against Rebecca are without merit. He asks at one point, quote, are these women self deluded by dreams of their own importance? End quote. And I was kind of like, yeah, yeah, Rebecca, are they? Answer the damn question. Yeah, you know, I don't think you're necessarily supposed to be cheering for the Rabbi here, but at the same time, I don't think you're necessarily supposed to be cheering for Rebecca either. She comes off as pretty haughty and arrogant about the knowledge that other memory has given her. She's not questioning any of it. From my read of it, this chapter is frank, perhaps showing us two what, on the surface seem like opposing ideologies. You have the rabbi and his Jewish faith on one end, and then you have the sisterhood and their other memory and their dogma and philosophies on Rebecca's end. They both kind of suffer from the same issue of a lack of introspection, a lack of asking questions about your own faith. The rabbi takes his faith blindly, and Rebecca is taking what she's learning from other memory blindly. And I think there's maybe a warning about going to either extreme.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a. That's a good read.

[B]

Anyway, to wrap up the chapter, there's a final tidbit that I want to just call out, but then we're going to talk about it more in the takeaway, so we'll put a pin in it. This final tidbit is Rebecca responding to the rabbi asking if the sisterhood believe in a power greater than themselves. And Rebecca responds, quote, their belief would not accord with ours, Rabbi, but I do not think it evil, end quote. And when the rabbi pushes her to explain that further, she continues, quote, they call it the leveling drift. They see it genetically and as instinct. Brilliant parents are likely to have children closer to the average, for example, end quote. And that idea of leveling drift is incredibly fascinating. And we did a deeper dive into it for our takeaway today. So hang tight. We'll talk about that in just a bit. But that's chapter 38, folks.

[A]

Great. And that leads us into our final chapter today, chapter 39. And good Lord, buckle up.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

This chapter went on for six chapters of length. So long. Things are finally happening now. Specifically, final preparations are complete, and it is time for our elite strike team, Odrade, Tam and the Tooge, to make their fateful trip to Junction.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

In the final days on Chapter House, Belanda is constantly hovering and pestering the Mother Superior. But, oh, Trade sees right through Belle's bullshit quote. We don't have many more days together, Belle. And that's what's eating you. End quote. Deeply humanizing. And thank you, oh, trade, for giving Belle a redemptive moment. Because I was also pissed off at Belle during this chapter. I was like, belle, chill dog. Good Lord. And to see that side of it of to just. Belle knows that she's not Going to see oh Draid anymore.

[B]

It's sweet.

[A]

That's really sweet. Again, it's the sort of the core of love that many Bene Gesserit are blind to. Belle doesn't fully recognize how much she loves O'Drade, but she clearly does.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Good point. Yeah.

[A]

Now we also learn from oh Trade's frantic thoughts that she has shared with Mirbella and Shiana. It happened off page.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

But we don't get any fucking ins into Shiona schemes. It's like, God damn it, Frank. Shit happening off page. And then also this, like, huge question we still don't get. Oh, my God. But we do get a sense that Odrade is still kind of vaguely anxious. Quote, I cannot follow into your wild place, Shiana. My task is to produce order. I cannot risk what you have dared. There are different kinds of artistry. Yours repels me. End quote. Fascinating. What could it mean? What does that fucking mean? Is she a finger painter? Does she. She's like sculpting with human feces. Drake's like, wow, that's crazy.

[B]

That repels me.

[A]

That repels me so much. Gross. You know, like, what does that fucking mean? But nothing to do about it. Now Odrade says her final farewells and boards the no Ship along with her squad, along with Sweepole, her attendant, a kind of round faced, efficient, good person who is also expendable. Yeah, and totally fine if she dies. Now, once they're on the no Ship, they've got some time to kill. And she spends her time reflecting on the ecological changes on Chapter House, you know, organizing everything she knows about the Honored Matre. Really going into her memory palace to prepare herself, gather her energies for this battle to come. Because of course, this is not going to be an easy meeting.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Now, they ditched the no Ship just outside of where it would have been detected. I thought, again, this is really fun background world building where Frank says, you know, there are these fold space detective units or something that like tell you if people have folded space into your area. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Of course, that makes sense. You know, you can't find the ships, but you can see that someone's like

[B]

ringing like a echo.

[A]

Yeah, I thought that was so cool. So they proceed onto a little fighter. This like small, small, small ship that was a smuggler vessel for a 19 hour flight, which really sounds damn like the worst. I mean, honestly, if you're going into like a really stressful meeting and it's like don't worry, we've got a 19 hour drive ahead of us. That sucks, dude. Well, once the group gets in range of junction, they start getting these kind of alarmed, you know, messages From Planetary Station 4, you know, identify yourself or we'll fucking blow you up. And the pilot then reveals their identity. And it turns out, ladies and gentlemen, it's the best character in Dune by such a margin. It's Claire B. It's. Oh my God, Claire. It's Cyborg. Cyborg. Him. It's him. The cyborg. Capital H. God, I love Claire B. He's great. And he basically tells. Oh, trade. Oh yeah, you didn't. He didn't know like I. That makes sense. You know, you wouldn't have been told this because I know you like me, but he is going to take them to the planet and then sacrifice himself. But.

[B]

Oh God. Glare me.

[A]

No, I know. But hey, hold on. Quote, waste no pity.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Why I was dead and this gave me life. And when I die this time, say it ain't so. That will buy me life as a Gola.

[B]

What is. Claraby may never die.

[A]

Oh, we're gonna have Claire B in every book from now on. I can't wait.

[B]

Oh my God. I'm almost certain Claraby was set up for the seventh book. Dude, you don't bring this guy back twice if you're not gonna play that card again.

[A]

Main character Clareby, I swear to God, it's going to be Claraby in Duncan, Idaho as a buddy cop. Book was book seven for sure.

[B]

Oh shit.

[A]

Oh yeah. If you. I remember when I first read this, I lost my fucking mind. I was like, if you list out the goals we know that exist. It's all of these like interstellarly important characters. And then a bus driver from Chapter House. And I was like, I think Clarabe might be my favorite character. That's crazy.

[B]

I mean, Odrade has a thought somewhat along those lines too, right? She's like, oh, oh my gosh, we're going to offer him the Gola. Are we opening up that doorway as well?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, now that Wendy desert have this Tleilaxu technology, are we just going to start abusing it? Are we going to let that genie out of the bottle too? Now that we've let the cyborg genie out of the bottle, Larby kind of is an omen of some dangerous potentials of the future.

[A]

Oh my God. You let the genie out of the bottle, you use your three wishes, then you kill the genie, bring him back as a Gola, three more wishes.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

Oh my God, the infinite wish loop. We cracked the code. All it took was axolotl tanks. That's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, they arrive on the planet and stepping off the ship, you know, Odrade says to Clare, me, by the way, blow up your ship pretty quickly because we really want to make a grand entrance. Don't wait too long.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which by the way, crazy part of the plan. We'll have to see how that plays out for real. But then we get this sequence where basically she's taking in her surroundings. She's seeing the surface of Junction where the Honored Matre have fully set up base. And I got such major like reporter visits, North Korea vibes from this section where it's like you see all the kids laughing and playing in the yard. And it turns out this was a state everyone's being forced to or whatever. I feel like there's no. Because of course she thinks to herself, look at those like 2000 young women playing sports in a field. Completely at. Oh, just coincidentally when we're arriving. Yeah, bullshit. This is a show for us.

[B]

It's all staged. Drama, right?

[A]

Yeah. The first thing I thought of was like, you know, for visitors to Pyongyang, North Korea, it's like, oh yeah, it's parade Thursdays. We just always have fun parades and everyone gets free cotton candy. Everything's great here. What do you mean?

[B]

Yeah, it's fun here.

[A]

It's fun here. Everyone has fun. They have to, they're forced to. But more importantly than the obvious Honored Mater propaganda, very little has changed. The Spacing Guild planet is more or less unchanged. They added a tower here, a little adjustment there, but otherwise everything's where they expect it to be, which is huge. She's able to transmit this with her little biotransmitter to Teg's team, telling them, hey, everything looks good. In fact, your intel about Junction is basically up to date. This is great.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Now they arrive at this like hotel, this like, this accommodation. All of this is so surreal because we think of them. I was thinking of them as like in their palace with their supplicants and all. It sounds like Disneyland. Like it just sounds like such a constructed experience. So they arrive at this like shitty 2 star hotel where the Honored Matre have apparently made accommodations for their stay. A motel on the side of the fucking field. And of course they're delayed at check in. So. Oh, draid's like, okay, everyone, you know, spread out. So incredible. The little line where everyone stood within striking Distance of one another.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In case there was, like, a betrayer,

[B]

like, this was an ambush or something.

[A]

Yeah. And if there was a turncoat from among rank, everyone's kind of got like, okay, so I'll kick him in the neck if he fucks up. And he'll. Okay, so we all have, like, someone we're covering. Fascinating.

[B]

That Bene Gesserit harmony.

[A]

That Bene Gesserit harmony, dude. And this is how on edge they are. They are like, we have not ruled out anything. We are looking relaxed, just kind of chatting with each other. Oh, look, sports. Oh, that's fun. But they are on the knife's edge right now, and they are being so, so, so careful. And O'Drade realizing that this is all, again, kind of a. What is it? A pony show. A horse and pony show, whatever that idiom is. This is all again staged drama. Oh, no, you've been delayed. At check in, she decides this is the time to begin the negotiation. This is the time to actually begin her part of the plan. So she goes, hey, Sweepil, you seem like you need a lesson right now. Sweepole's like, yes, I do. Lay it on me, teacher.

[B]

I've been burning for a lesson.

[A]

Thank you. Burning for a lesson. Thank you. So she tells Sweepol about how bureaucracies don't adapt and thus never survive. Kind of covering it all in this conversation about ics, right? They see these ambassadors from I come to beg for some additional power or something like that. And she makes the lesson about them. But of course, she's really talking about the Honored Matre. And she drops this bar, quote, creative anarchy is the way to survive in this universe. End quote. And for an ultimately autocratic, bureaucratic organization like the Honored Matre, this must sound fucking absurd.

[B]

But, yeah.

[A]

Keep in mind, Dama arranged for this meeting with hopes of getting Bene Gesserit science. We have to remember that that's her goal. So here's Odrade offering up some science on a silver platter that directly counteracts the Honor Matre way of doing things. It's fucking brilliant.

[B]

It's brilliant.

[A]

And of course, Sweepil is, like, playing her part to the T. And even Odrade goes, my God, she's ready for the spice agony. She's incredible. Sweep is the coolest.

[B]

This is great. So it's so tragic. We're about to just sacrifice her on this mission.

[A]

Damn her round face and her efficient manner. Wasted.

[B]

Good Lord and that water fat ass.

[A]

Absolutely wasted.

[B]

A tragedy.

[A]

Dump truck driven off the cliff. My God. We tried to be stealthy, but the clap of her cheeks. No, wait, that's. That's solid snake. That's amazing. Anyway, yeah, that's something that Frank didn't include, is that Sweetpole is, like, carrying an absolute caboose on her. She is just.

[B]

That's true. Yeah, that's, you know, headcanon.

[A]

My headcanon. It's, like, totally unnecessary. Anyway, the chapter ends as Tamilane approaches Ohrade, stepping wide around Sweepil's massive derriere just to kind of like edge around the giant posterior Sweepil. And she goes. And she goes, hey, Odrade. Hey, isn't something gonna happen? Like, man, I'm bored. It's been time, you know, it's been 20 minutes since anything happened. And O' Draid comments. Listen, the negotiation, Tamerlane, has already begun. And in fact, they've sent their message and I just sent mine.

[B]

And, yeah, hell yeah.

[A]

The battle, the battle of wits, the battle of bureaucracy against Creative anarchy, Heretics vs Ultimate Dogmatists is beginning.

[B]

Yeah. This marks the beginning of the battle of Junction. You know, this is the first volley. The first bullet has been shot.

[A]

So characteristic of Frank's writings that the first bullet, the first volley, the first attack, the first, like, spear thrust of this offensive is words and politics.

[B]

Like, that's right.

[A]

What a dune moment, right? This is not lasers shooting. And this is the final, you know, the final countdown, as the song goes. This is like politics and philosophy and this is the beginning. That's so cool. I love it.

[B]

All right, folks, those are the chapter summaries that was the assigned reading for today. Really good stuff. Three really excellent chapters. And we're in the end game now. This is it. We're nearing the end of Chapter House Dune, and all that's left is the most dangerous mission perhaps that mother superior Odrade has ever gone on in her life. Let's take another quick break. But folks, don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're getting into our takeaway to dive a little bit deeper into the idea of leveling drift. We'll see you in a minute.

[C]

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[A]

Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. So, let's talk about leveling drift. A really interesting belief that Rebecca tells the rabbi in today's reading and kind of a new concept for us about the Bene Gesserit worldview that we've not heard about before. Which again in the 11th hour. Frank really telling us new things about one of the most important orders in your whole book series. But, yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about leveling drift and starting very basically, what is the belief? Well, Rebecca explains, quote, they call it the leveling drift. They see it genetically and as instinct. Brilliant parents are likely to have children closer to the average, for example, end quote. Which really just sounds like maybe Frank was disappointed in his kids. He was like, yo, me and Beverly are brilliant and our kids are fucking brilliant. Middle of the bell curve. That is disappointing. But what Rebecca seems to be getting at is that the Bene Gesserit believe that human societies tend to equalize over time. Extreme differences, whether in power, wealth, technology, or culture, gradually, slowly but surely flatten out. Given enough time, disparities drift toward equilibrium. Or at least that's the belief that the Bene Gesserit has.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She even explains that this is why the Bene Gesserit never seek direct power, because taking the reins makes you one of those targets that might then be kind of sanded off of the edges of humanity. It's safer toward the kind of mean it's safer toward the middle, even if it's kind of you're pretending or even if you're really kind of nestling yourself within that average.

[B]

It's easier to hide in the center of that bell curve where everyone else is, than to stand out at either extreme, you know?

[A]

Right. Recall again, Jessica using the voice on Thiefir Howitt and Thiefir Howard going, what the fuck? You can do that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The extreme of human capability. And Jessica goes, yeah, use your fucking brain, dog. We can't show people we have this. We would be leveled out. Yeah, that was a direct float. The tone of the first book was really different than the later books. But use your fucking brain, dog is a direct quote from Jessica Harkonnen. So she, she tells him, right, Use your fucking brain, dog. If we do that, we'll be fucking leveling drifted, man.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Leveling drift. And thier is like, that's rad, bro. True mental computation, facts. But of course, like glib tone aside, that was a moment where Jessica explained, if you map out the bell curve of human capabilities. Yeah. We are way further out there than you think as a galactic mentad. And there is a reason for that. Because we don't want to be equalized. We don't want to be succumbed to this power. Right, Right.

[B]

We push people too far, we reveal too much about ourselves and we risk the possibility of people turning against us and thus being eradicated, being sanded down back toward that center average, essentially. Now, naturally, after Rebekah explains all of this, the Rabbi has questions, right? He's got follow ups. He asks, for example, whether the Bene Gesserit believe in a quote, unquote, drift maker, AKA God, as the Rabbi would see him. And Rebekah's response I found really interesting and very carefully worded. She says, quote, they don't assume there is only that there is this observable movement. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my goodness, that is precise Bene Gesserit wording if I've ever heard of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because Rebecca doesn't just hand wave away the Rabbi's question about God. She isn't like, no, no, you silly rabbi, there's no God.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Instead, she says, the Bene Gesserit have not found evidence that there is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it reveals this very empirical way of Bene Gesserit thinking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They have observed this movement, this leveling drift over eons, you know, over thousands, tens of thousands of years of human history. But across those tens of thousands of years of data, they have yet to find empirical evidence that there is something behind the drift. They just know that it does exist.

[A]

And I think Rebecca would say that it's not even their interest. They're not seeking God. They are seeking to understand the levers that move people. And the many gods of humanity have been a very effective lever. So that's kind of where they ended up. But the question, like, I'm sure if you asked Ojre, do you believe in God? She'd be like, I don't really think about it. I'm too busy steering humanity. It's not really relevant because if there is one, we haven't seen evidence of him, you know, or them or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think, I think that that's another thing here. The rabbi is. It's the same thing I've seen a lot in conversations between, like, theistic apologists and atheistic apologists is this debate around whether or not there's God. And of course, when the theist is saying God, it's a God that they believe in. When the atheist or agnostic hears the word God, we think, which one? Because there are so many options of Gods we don't believe in. And so there is this kind of opposition. Rebecca is not thinking about the one God that he's pointing out. She's going, right, well, yeah, no, in 100,000 years, they haven't seen evidence of any God. So it's just not. They're not thinking about it.

[B]

Yeah, we're not.

[A]

But I'm sure the Rabbi, when he asks that question, he's thinking about the. The God of the Hebrew faith.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's kind of savage if you think about it. You know, it's like babes. I don't even think about you.

[A]

Was that like Scarlet Witch to Thanos? You took everything from me. I don't even know who you are.

[B]

I don't even know who you are. Yeah, exactly. It's exactly.

[A]

Sorry, new phone. Who's this?

[B]

Benny Jesuit. Savage. I also wanted to. I found this next bit really interesting. I wanted to call this out because we've been leaning into so much water imagery this entire book. And in order to explain this leveling drift concept to the Rabbi further, Rebecca paints this picture of sailors. She uses this, like, sailors metaphor as they, like, crest the waters of the ocean or whatever the Sisterhood has observed, that there's this natural drift, you could call it the waves of the oceans of humanity's history. And rather than choosing to swim against the current, Rebecca says that they, quote, seem only to move across it, making it work for them, using the back eddies. End quote.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And that I found super, super interesting because, of course, like everything we know about the Bene Gesserit points toward them being the kind of sailor that doesn't bother fighting the current. This is how humanity drifts. And we will find, you know, in between the up and down motion of the waves, we will find our openings and take advantage of those openings to kind of direct the ship where we want to. It's very in line with Bene Gesserit MO from this entire series using subtlety and subversion rather than rowing as hard as we can against the current to get where we want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which, of course, thinking of heretics of Dune Thinking of Chapter House Dune, these last two books, and the larger story at play here with the honored Matre. The Honor Matre are the kind of people who are yelling cannonball and leaping into the pool, splashing everybody who's at the edges. You know, there's so much collateral pool damage taking place when an otter Matre cannonballs in there, because they're gonna go in and try to tame the sea.

[A]

Yeah, that's their mo.

[B]

That's their way of thinking.

[A]

They're. They're eating their garlic beans in the pool and you're like, ew. Oh, my God, it's getting everywhere.

[B]

They're peeing in the pool.

[A]

Oh, they're doing everything in the pool. It's crazy. Well, stepping out of the story, let's take a look at what Frank is maybe getting at with this idea. Because on some level, it certainly explains why the Bene Gesserit operate the way they do. But is there, as there often is, a larger commentary within all of this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And based on our research, this leveling drift seems to be a concept basically entirely of Frank's own making. We didn't find any, like, obvious. Yeah, this is where he got that from. Or here's a broad conversation that was happening in philosophy at the time or anything like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The closest real world theory we can link it to is the statistical phenomenon called regression toward the mean, or rtm. The nonprofit Institute for Work and Health defines RTM as, quote, the tendency of results that are extreme by chance on first measurement that is extremely higher or lower than average to move closer to the average when measured a second time. Results subject to regression to the mean are those that can be influenced by an element of chance. When chance, or fluke gives rise to extreme scores, it's unlikely those extreme scores will be repeated on a second try. End quote.

[B]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

[A]

Yeah. Like if you roll a dice, you roll two or three dice and you get sixes. All sixes. You know, Yatsu?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You get excited and you're like, yeah, that's sweet. You roll them again, you are very likely not gonna get that same thing again. Because if you roll two dice over and over and over again, as anyone who's played Settlers of Catan can tell you, seven is the most often combination of numbers. So it becomes this bell curve. And the more times you roll the dice, the more that bell curve appears in data, because that's. It's a statistical. There's some way to describe that. It's a normal distribution, I think, is the word. But in any case, that is what this is about, right? Those sorts of things where chances involved will very likely kind of regress toward this bell shaped distribution. Now why is RTM important? Well, it's kind of a check and balance on reading data incorrectly. Just because your business did fucking astronomically well in quarter two does not necessarily mean the same thing will happen in quarter three. Because you can't control or even identify every factor that affects your business. Which then basically breaks down to were you lucky on some level. Right. There are market fluctuations, interdependencies, and luck again. GameStop will never see that happen again.

[B]

Much to my chagrin.

[A]

Much to my chagrin. Would love to go to the moon. I've heard that's the easiest way to go to the moon. Another example that you pulled here is Peloton during the coronavirus Pandemic is a great example of this exact thing, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The company saw this massive boom during lockdowns when people weren't feeling safe running outside or going to fitness classes and began operating as if this was the new normal. They were like, oh, sweet.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Pandemic forever. Everyone's quarantined until the end of days. This is wonderful.

[B]

Look at all this money we're making.

[A]

And then the lockdowns lifted and they were like, oh, fuck. People like being outside. Oh, shit. We forgot. Oh, no.

[B]

Our $3,000 bikes aren't what people want.

[A]

It's unbelievable. I can't imagine why. From a 2023 CNBC article quote. Since reaching a peak intraday share price of $167 in December 2020, Peloton stock has crumbled to $13.60. Holy shit. A share. End quote.

[B]

Brutal.

[A]

In case you're wondering, dear listener, because I certainly was. And I stopped recording this episode for a second just to look it up, but Abu got ahead of me and put it in the script. It's not doing better. It's only gotten worse. So that was in 2023? It was to $13.60 a share. It has plummeted further and hasn't cracked $10 a share in years. In fact, right now it's sitting at $3.40 a share.

[B]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[A]

That's. That's rough, dog. That seems like leveling drift to me if ever I've seen it again.

[B]

That. That rtm, the regression toward the mean, that is just a way to catch yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not read data incorrectly when something extreme happens. Either extremely high, like Peloton seeing extremely high sales during the pandemic or extremely low the assumption there should be. Well, there's a lot of uncontrollable random chance factors at play here, notably a once in a lifetime fucking pandemic. We should assume that this will not last forever and we will start regressing back toward the center of the bell curve, back toward the mean. And so let's continue operating as if the mean is what will happen in the future. Peloton, of course, didn't do that. And leveling. The concept of Frank's leveling drift and the real world concept of regression toward the mean argues that extremes like that are not normal. They're extreme because they are so outside the norm and thus, when measured again, it's unlikely that they will happen again. And so I thought that was an interesting real world example that kind of helped me process what RTM could mean in real life. I think bringing it back to Dune, though, it sounds to me like Frank is perhaps applying this general idea of rtm, this statistical phenomenon, to maybe just a larger fabric of human history. Right across humanity's social and political and economic and even philosophical past, across tens of thousands of years in Dune history, the extremes have always been pushed back toward the center. That is how the Bene Gesserit see the long fabric of human history. And Rebecca even gives this example of a brilliant innovator. She says that while this person, this brilliant genius, might create something new and helpful, quote, the drift catches the innovator, end quote. The implication there being that no outlier, even a person who is an extreme outlier, will escape sort of this like, grand equalizing force of humanity. It can be a person, it can be an institution, it can be a source of power. It's unlikely for extremes to continue to happen over and over and over again. There's only ever been one God, Emperor, and it's unlikely that we're going to see another.

[A]

Right?

[B]

This is perhaps neither here nor there, but I wanted to share this line because I'm sure folks noticed Frank drops all pretense weirdly and takes this moment to what to me feels like personally just complain about taxes real quick. There's this very weird passage that Rebecca says that feels so out of place in the world of Dune. She says, quote, they, as in the Bene Gesserit, they see taxation as evidence of the drift, taking away free energy that might create more new things. A sensitized person detects it. They say, end quote.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

What a crazy to roll my eyes at that.

[A]

I was like, what the fuck Suddenly the Bene Gesserit are libertarians. Yeah. They say that fucking taxes are evil and especially the rich should probably get tax cuts. Totally.

[B]

It's so funny. It feels out of place. It almost feels like an ad, you know, you're like, wait a second, did I just suddenly come across an ad in the middle of this book, which is a real thing that's happening. I don't know if you've seen those tweets of people, oh, being like this Casper mattress that just came up in the middle of my rom com book. What the fuck? Like, integrated into the story.

[A]

Whoa. No way.

[B]

Yeah, it's wild. Like, some character will be like, oh, I love my Casper mattress. It helps me sleep so much better than the other.

[A]

What the fuck? That's a thing?

[B]

Yeah, man. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I don't like that.

[B]

It's wild out there.

[A]

The literary world, I mean, I guess it happens in fucking every other storytelling medium.

[B]

True. Yeah. Books seem to be like the last medium where, like, intrusive ads don't exist.

[A]

But weird.

[B]

I got curious because I was like, whoa, what is this random taxes line doing in this book out of nowhere? So I googled. I was like, frank Herbert, taxes. And interestingly enough, Frank did have some financial issues throughout his life, but certainly at the time he was writing this book. Apparently, after Beverly's death in 1984, his son Brian Herbert came in and took over some of the bookkeeping and managerial stuff that Beverly used to help Frank with. And this is when he discovered that his father had accumulated a lot of debt, much of it to the irs. And so it sounds like Frank owed a lot of, like, back taxes and stuff at this time in his life. And maybe it was just on his mind.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he went from being, I imagine, a pretty paycheck to paycheck writer, doing speeches and odd ends here and there, to being a international best selling author with movie deals and stuff, mismanaging those funds. Especially while grieving after the love of

[B]

your life dies and while the IRS hounds your every step.

[A]

Yeah, all of that is so interesting. Okay, taking a step back. Abu, do you agree with the Bene Gesserit? Are you a libertarian? Do you hate taxes, especially on rich people and think they should all get tax cuts? Or no. Do you think that there is some kind of grand cosmic drift that kind of sands down the edges of humanity, pushing the extremes back to the center average, back to the bell curve?

[B]

Interesting. I will say before I answer that question, I lean way too socialist to hate taxes. So I certainly, yes, don't agree with that. But as I was doing my research, I was like, oh, my gosh, leveling drift. This is cool. Maybe I'm going to learn some new philosophy that Frank was really diving into. And ultimately I didn't, you know, like, I didn't find any research that backed up Frank's slash, Rebecca's assertion of the leveling drift, this belief that human history itself tends to push toward the middle. And in fact, I found a lot of theories that point more toward human history being cyclical in its trends rather than statistically average.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

There's a couple of theories I wanted to call out. For example, so for one, I found a theory called punctuated equilibrium, which is this evolutionary theory about how species experience these long periods of unchanging stasis followed by dramatic and sudden change. So the theory itself is about evolution?

[A]

Yeah, of course, like the Cambrian Explosion was an example of punky Q. Right.

[B]

But social scientists have taken this theory and sort of applied it to the wider institution of human history and political institutions and societies across human history. This idea that there will be long periods of stasis followed by dramatic changes, dramatic and sudden changes, and then another long period of stasis and that cycle continues throughout history. That's one theory called punctuated equilibrium, which I think suggesting that leveling drift is not a thing. Another field of research that I found is known as cliodynamics, I think clio dynamics. And what this field of research tries to do is to apply mathematical and statistical models to human history to try and identify trends and patterns. And ultimately cliodynamics theorizes that human societies go through these orderly cycles of growth and then crisis, then decay, then back to growth, then crisis, then decay. And if you kind of zoom out across human history, you'll just kind of see that cycle happen over and over again. I think zooming out, I don't find personally find much merit in Frank's idea of leveling drift as applied to humanity. And honestly, I found this like, sort of explanation by Rebecca interesting as merely a glimpse into Bene Gesserit thinking and worldview. It explains how the Bene Gesserit operate and why they operate the way they do. I don't know that it necessarily applies beyond a Bene Gesserit worldview. And ultimately, like, I think the weird taxes line, the bit about the innovator, which I don't know, kind of seems to be a bit about Frank himself. It kind of gives me this, like, old man yelling at the sky energy rather than like an Extremely well thought out philosophical and statistical idea that Frank maybe did a bunch of research on. But I don't know. That's my takeaway. That's what I found in my research. But ultimately, no, I don't, I don't believe in the leveling drift theory that Rebecca is laying out here.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What about you?

[A]

Yeah, it's an interesting thought. I think when I was reading this idea of leveling drift, I was thinking about how so much of this book has been about Bene Gesserit conservatism and this thing that like Blonda represents, right. This like. Let's return to the archives. Let's look back on how we've always done it. And that's an attitude that's going to slow down progress and tamp down outliers and brilliant innovators, right? Like people like Shiana and o', Draid, who are so unlike the average Bene Gesserit, are much more the chaotic energy innovator that is clearly not part of this leveling drift. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also can't help but think about that Japanese saying, quote, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down and that idea of extreme outliers kind of being targeted by other forces. I also think that like, you know, there is a broad pattern probably of like we as a species, humans as a species first and foremost, deep, deep, deep down, want a form of comfort and security for today and tomorrow, right? And this kind of like immediate now. And I think that is in ways antithetical to the kind of bleeding edge of progress and innovation. It's only when you have your food and your shelter those needs met. Unless you're acting via desperation. It's only when you have those needs met that you look to the horizon and you go, maybe there's an island out there and I'm going to go find it. You know, I think that is another force that maybe exists on a very big scale. So maybe what the Bene Gesserit are talking about with this leveling drift is you might have innovators who push humanity forward into this uncharted territory, but then you're in this uncharted charted territory with unknown threats, you're out in the fucking scattering and there are sentient tree houses and face dancers with futars and all sorts of crazy shit. What do you want but the comfort of the original imperium. And we see that kind of ebb and flow of innovation explosion outward and then pulling back a little bit, the tide flowing out and in. So that's kind of where I landed, I was like, yeah, maybe. Maybe it's kind of like an evolutionary impulse to seek out comfort as a first step toward whatever else we do. But I kind of got the same impression that you did where, like, I feel like there's a book that Frank read, just a book that he read in 1983, and it was about this idea of maybe it was statistics and maybe it was punctuated equilibrium, or maybe it was the return to the mean. But I feel like he read a book and was like, yeah, fuck yeah, that's great. And then put it in this. I feel like he's done that before. So I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some dusty tome that's hard to find online, but that did exist on his library bookshelf that said, here's how humanity has always been kind of whittled down to return to this mean would not surprise me at all.

[B]

Right. Like a one off theory he read somewhere that stuck in his brain and he introduced it into the story for sure. Yeah, that's happened many times before in the Dune books.

[A]

Yeah. As we've done our research, it's like, oh, he read this book on no theater and then now suddenly there's seven metaphors about no plays.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[A]

That's a good point. In any case, I kind of vibe with it, but yeah, definitely the taxes line. Feels much more like he's on his soapbox again going, us innovators always get beaten down and look at me. Me and Bev were brilliant and we had these boring ass children and now I've got all this tax debt. Society sucks.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting nonetheless. You know, not. Not all of Frank Herbert's ideas were home runs. Yeah, he was not a perfect author and a perfect storyteller. So it's always fun to sort of take our time with these takeaways with things that, you know, we don't ultimately vibe with, but are interesting thought experiments nonetheless.

[A]

Well, that is our takeaway today. And we have some spiced morsels for you, dear listeners. But before we get to those, we're going to take one final quick break, so don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're serving up a plate of big Old Spice morsels. One of them's gonna leave a bad taste in your mouth for sure, but it's hot and ready.

[C]

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[B]

Welcome back, folks. Let's round out today's episode, as we like to do, by chomping down on a pair of spice morsels. Let's start with our first morsel today. Minyan. So, in today's reading, a distressed rabbi laments to Rebecca, quote, I am fearful for you, for us, for all of the things we represent. We have been true for so many generations, and we don't even have a mignon here. End quote. Now, I personally wasn't familiar with the term mignon, so I decided to dig into it.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And so, for folks like me who are wondering what that's all about, here's what I learned from my research and how it ties back into this story. MyJewishLearning.com defines mignon as a, quote, Hebrew word that describes the quorum of 10 Jewish adults required for certain religious obligations, end quote.

[A]

Interesting. Okay.

[B]

And the article actually goes on and explains that, quote, one can always say one's prayers by oneself at any time or place, but praying with others brings a sense of connection and closeness and can strengthen the collective to focus on their prayers more deeply. By requiring a minion for many fundamental rituals, Judaism encourages communal cohesion. End quote.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

I thought was really interesting and actually very sweet.

[A]

That's cool. Really strengthens community to require certain ceremonies to have at least 10 people present. That's cool.

[B]

Yeah. Now, speaking of those certain ceremonies, from my research, I found a couple of examples. Some of these rituals that require a mignon, for example, include the seven wedding blessings, the reciting of the priestly blessing, and saying the prayer for escaping a dangerous situation, which in particular feels like a prayer that the rabbi desperately would want a mignon for.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds about right. They are hiding in a cellar. Yeah.

[B]

Now, from my research, I learned that there's a couple of different theories for why the number 10 precisely was chosen for a minyan. The first theory is the story of Noah, where eight people was not enough to save the world from destruction. The story of Noah's Ark. Then the other story is the one of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Abraham couldn't find the 10 righteous people, so God destroyed those cities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So 10, perhaps, is the correct Number of people for a religious ceremony or prayer like that.

[A]

I love some Old Testament sources. Hell, yeah.

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

I thought it was just because of we got 10 fingers. Like, that's a big number for us because we got 10 fingers.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, like, 10 could be from anywhere. And there's a couple other theories too. Now, bringing it back to Dune to wrap up this morsel. I think having this knowledge of what a mignon is adds a bit of interesting context to today's reading. The rabbi is clearly expressing here to Rebecca how he is feeling disconnected and afraid in their isolation as they hide in this, like, no chamber underneath Gamu. Yeah, he's expressing how he's sad that There aren't even 10 adults here with them. There's not enough people to perform these rituals. Rituals that I suspect over a lifetime of following this faith are a source of deep comfort for the rabbi. And here he is finding himself in a very difficult situation, unable to tap into that source of comfort because there are not enough adults.

[A]

Oh, great point.

[B]

Also, just the fact that there's not 10 Jewish adults hiding with them. Like, gosh, this no chamber is smaller than I perhaps was imagining.

[A]

Yeah. I knew there were a few people, but I didn't know how many. That's so interesting because that's absolutely a dimension of it that I would not have thought of, you know, like, I think as not part of that faith. I'm thinking, hey, you're safe. You've presumably got some food for a little while. You're good, chill, sweet. But he's thinking about all the things they can't do because of not having enough people. And, okay, let's say you get out of there safe. If this is all, who gets away, you still can't perform certain prayers. You can't perform certain pieces of your faith because you don't have enough people. Like, that's. Oh, that's really fascinating. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. It makes the rabbi a bit more of a sympathetic character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting, because it's clear, I think, that this loss of community, this loss of cohesion is hitting the rabbi really, really hard. And he's having a hard time dealing with it, which I thought was an interesting contrast to Rebecca, who has seemingly found a new community within her other memories.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She brushes aside a lot of the rabbi's concerns because she's like, it's fine, it's chill. The Bene Gesserit do this and they do that. That's what my community does. So the contrast there, I thought, was interesting and perhaps intentional.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

My last thought here, and this is maybe a throwaway thought, but I wanted to include feels perhaps intentional that this chapter is actually situated right after the convocation when we see another community come together around a trade and we get all of these melancholic thoughts from. Oh, dread. Right. She is sad and fearful over the potential loss of her sisters, of her community, of her rituals.

[A]

Man. Good on, Frank. That's a fun bit of. I didn't know that about Jewish culture and the Jewish faith.

[B]

Yeah, me neither. Yeah.

[A]

Well, we've got a second morsel for you. And this one is on potash. Or potash. Not sure how to say it. In today's reading, o' Draid is thinking about chapterhouse's evolution to a desert planet and what this will mean for water practices on the surface. Quote, many changes, including return to Fremen mortuary practices, bodies rendered for water and potash. End quote. And I'm like, yo, I heard of water. I know what water is. Pop quiz me right now. H2O made of it mostly. Hell yeah. What the fuck is potash? I've never heard of that. Second thing now I also, beyond the curiosity about the material itself, I found it interesting that this is being introduced in the 11th hour. You know, that the Fremen did this. So I wanted to take a look at potash and what we could learn. And starting basically, what the fuck is it? From the very easy to trust source Natural Resources Canada. National Natural Resources Canada. CA Potash is a group of minerals and chemicals primarily used to produce fertilizer. So useful for an ecologically oriented culture like the Fremen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now Canada, fun fact, produces about a third of the potash in the world, followed by Russia and obviously Belarus. Shout out to Belarus for making the top three list. I feel like that doesn't happen very often.

[B]

Shots fired at Belarus.

[A]

I'm just saying, statistically they are not in control. I'm just happy for them. They're on the podium, you know. How often does that happen? I don't think often. Okay. Name another time. Abu. Go ahead.

[B]

I. You know, I can't.

[A]

It's fair.

[B]

It's yours. Your point stands. I can't think of a top three thing Belarus does in the moment.

[A]

What is Belarus at? Natural landscapes, well maintained parks and gardens, architectural sites and rich culture that very few.

[B]

Okay. I mean, that's a little generic. Belarus. Like you could come up with something a little more specific.

[A]

The title of that webpage is why everyone should visit Belarus.

[B]

Okay. Those three things, those three very generic

[A]

Things sounds a little biased.

[B]

I am personally going to visit for the potash production.

[A]

Yeah, same again. Number three in the world, Shout out Belarus on the podium. Now, there are lots of ways of creating potash, from mining ore in evaporated inland oceans to burning kelp. But we. I couldn't find anything about rendering human bodies. But I wanted to look into it because again, it's like, okay, so you have this idea of fertilizer, maybe humans as fertilizer. Sure. I couldn't find any science indicating that human bodies today could be rendered for potash. You know, even in places like Tibet, which has pretty like rough terrain, they do sky burials, you know, returning the body to nature. But that's not. That's not quite the same. Right.

[B]

Well, the FBI is going to be on your ass after all.

[A]

How to dispose of a human body quickly. Also growing vegetable. Vegetables. They're like, oh, no, he's a vegetarian and a murderer.

[B]

Two huge crimes.

[A]

Honestly, the worst combination. Now this does refer to compounds of potassium and potassium bearing materials. Fun fact. Potassium comes from the word potash.

[B]

No way. Oh my gosh.

[A]

Which is crazy. And potash is a compound word of potash because one of the ways that potash was initially created was getting the ash from the bottom of pots after burning certain things like kelp.

[B]

Yeah. Language is crazy.

[A]

Language is crazy. And as it turns out, human bodies, of course do contain some potassium. So I could see some. You know, we're talking 30,000 years from now. Maybe the Fremen cracked the code. They figured out how to get the potassium from human bodies to make potash. Now I've got some bad news though.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Because I was like, I was curious. I was like, let me do the math. How much fucking potassium does a human body have? National Institutes of Health sweeping in again. These fucking FBI agents checking my search logs are getting very curious. Quote, the total amount of potassium in the adult body is about 45 millimole per kilogram body weight. So it's about 140 grams of. For a 175 pound adult. Which is not a lot. That's not a lot. For context, I went to houzz.com and one user recommended, you got a 60 square foot plant bed. You need about a half a cup of potash to fertilize that 60 square foot plant bed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is about 300 grams of potash.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So you got to desiccate and like render two human bodies for your small plant bed. I feel like Frank didn't do that math because that doesn't work very well. Yeah, you're best off just grabbing some bananas, honestly. I mean, just. Just go for so much potassium, other ways to do it, you know, and there you have it. So, Potash, I think it does make sense to say, you know, we're seeking these ways to fertilize the soils of Arrakis. The Fremen, of course, had to grow. Grow their occasional plants and their keynotes and their various irrigated gardens. But it does seem like this is one of those instances where the math doesn't necessarily check out. So I think we maybe leave it there. Potash is a way of fertilizing mostly potassium based chemicals and compounds, but probably not possible from human bodies, unfortunately.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. I appreciate you doing that research and doing that very specific Googling.

[A]

Yeah. Again, FBI agent in charge of my. My. My record has a big report to write up today.

[B]

Probably he's like, I think this is all for a Dune podcast, but I'm gonna investigate further.

[A]

I don't know. It didn't show up in the first five books and I haven't read the sixth one yet, so probably not the

[B]

FBI agents like, I started chapter house yet.

[A]

Oh, no. I hope they have a book club.

[B]

Well, we do. FBI. We do.

[A]

We do.

[B]

All right, folks, that wraps up today's episode of Chapter House.

[A]

Dune indeed.

[B]

My goodness, we are so close to the end of this book. I can't wait to see where it goes next. And speaking of where it goes next, here is your assignment for the next episode. Make sure that you have read the next three chapters. That's 40, 41 and 42 for the next book club episode. Of course, if your copy of the book is slightly different from ours, then read through the chapter that ends on this sentence. Quote, they have a weapon we have not discovered. End quote.

[A]

My God, it's Potash. They're gonna fertilize all of our fields.

[B]

Oh, my God. It'll take so many bodies.

[A]

So many bodies. I mean, it's okay. There's a lot of bodies in this war. Or. Sure. Well, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support us and keep this show running. And the two best ways. One is to become a patron [e-mail] gomjabar2, get yourself some Dune themed swag from Gomjabar Shop. Those links are in the show notes both ways. Absolutely appreciated and a spectacular way to keep what we do here going.

[B]

That's right. And of course, we love to hear from you. Email us gomtrabarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your questions. Send us cute pictures of your pets. Once we wrap up this book, folks, we will have a big Q and A. So if you have questions and observations that you want us to share in that episode, hit us up. Email us. The earlier you email us, the earlier we see it and the better chance that we have time to include it. Yeah.

[A]

Tell us how big your flower bed is and how many bodies you would need to fertilize. Let's all get on that list. I'm on the list now. Join me on the list. It's great. Here.

[B]

Join that FBI list.

[A]

The water is great. Come on in. We're eating garlic and beans in the water. It's great.

[B]

Yes. How many bodies would it take to fertilize your gardens? Let us know.

[A]

Send us a number. It's either gonna. Now, if we get a number, email. It's gonna be either breadsticks at Olive Garden or bodies to fertilize the garden bed.

[B]

That's right. We'll have to guess. Does he mean six bodies for his garden or six breadsticks?

[A]

Unimpressive breadsticks. Ambitious number of bodies. It's not. It's really.

[B]

Is there Olive Garden in France? I'll come visit you in France. And we need to hit up some Olive Garden.

[A]

Okay. Next time we're in the same continent, we'll go to Olive Garden together.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

And I'll show you.

[B]

Six.

[A]

Six down. Easy, easy. Before the soup arrives.

[B]

Jesus. Okay. All right, all right. Look, I don't doubt it. I'm just impressed.

[A]

I'm a big boy.

[B]

You're tall. You are very tall.

[A]

A lot of. A lot of room for breadsticks. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where we stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Black. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.

[C]

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