Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 14)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Book Club – Chapterhouse Dune (Part 14)
Podcast Date: June 26, 2026
Hosts: Abu & Leo

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Episode Overview

In this action-packed Book Club episode, Abu and Leo dive into Chapters 40–42 of Frank Herbert’s Chapterhouse: Dune. These pivotal chapters deliver some of the saga’s most intense battlefield scenes, high-stakes political maneuvering, and philosophical meditations on memory and cultural survival. The hosts unpack the major plot twists, share personal reactions, and explore real-world parallels to Bene Gesserit’s desperate efforts to preserve their collective identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Recap & Chapter Summaries

1. Chapter 40: The Attack on Gamu

(05:01–12:59)

• Child Bashar on the Battlefield: Miles Teg, now in a child’s body but with all the military genius intact, leads the attack on Gamu.
  • “Nobody at this point is questioning whether this child, this Mickey Mouse child, is actually the legendary Miles Tag.” (05:52, Abu)
• Secret Weapon: Teg can see the supposedly invisible no-ships, a power he must conceal even from his own troops. This dramatic edge lets the Sisterhood ambush the Honored Matres.
  • “This is the goose that laid the golden egg… the first person to nullify no-ships would be unstoppable…” (07:11, Leo)
• The Attack is a Feint: The Gamu offensive is a mere flex; as Odrade said, “Honored Matres must be taught a lesson such as, never before attack us and you get hurt badly. Press us, and the pain can be enormous.” (08:30, Abu quoting Odrade)
• Mirbella’s Intervention: Mirbella overrides Teg’s command console to grant asylum to mysterious refugees from the battle’s edge.
  • “She’s like, I’m the older sibling. I get the controller. Sit down.” (09:37, Leo)
• Rebekah Arrives – Wild Reverend Mother: The mysterious woman with “total blue within blue eyes” turns out to be Rebecca, carrying the combined memories of over 7.6 million Reverend Mothers from Lampadas, a catastrophic loss Odrade mourned earlier.
  • “I carry Lampadas… 7,622,014 Reverend Mothers. And they are rightfully yours.” (12:02, Rebecca quoted by Abu)
  • “And those 14 will never be forgotten.” (12:17, Leo, joking)

2. Chapter 41: Odrade Meets the Spider Queen

(13:00–30:15)

• Comic Relief & Strategic Play: Odrade, waiting for Honored Matre hosts, mischievously sabotages hotel service robots. This subtle absurdity is a calculated move – a “psychological, deliberately absurd message aimed at the people that she knows are watching them.” (14:58, Leo)
• The Big Face-Off: Odrade is brought before Dama, the Honored Matre leader, in an encounter thick with micro-expressions and psychological maneuvering.
  • “The negotiation itself is a masterpiece of subtext.” (16:13, Leo)
  • “The Honored Matre were driven back to the old empire and are terrified that that enemy will find them again.” (16:46, Abu summarizing Odrade’s observations)
• Tragic Wealth, Exiled Power: Dama, though all-powerful, cannot return home. “Nothing Dama wanted… would be denied. Nothing except freedom to go back into the scattering.” (18:19, Abu quoting the text)
• Art as Metaphor: On the balcony, Dama shows Odrade a kinetic sculpture (“The Ballet Master,” or as Dama prefers, “Being Unknown”). This recalls Odrade’s sensitivity to art and parallels with Shiana’s work (“the wild thing no one can govern”). (21:07–22:41)
• Failed Diplomacy: Dama demands not an alliance, but total submission, offering “forgiveness” in exchange for the Sisterhood’s subservience.
  • “You say partners, I say our slaves. Tomato, tomato. It’s basically the same, you know.” (23:44, Leo)
• Sudden Power Shift: In a shocking twist, Dama is poisoned by her own subordinate Logno, who then seizes the title of Great Honored Matre.
  • “You will call me Great Honored Matre, and you will learn to thank me for it.” (27:37, Logno, quoted by Leo)
  • “What a fucking incredible twist.” (28:01, Leo)

3. Chapter 42: The Battle of Junction

(30:31–40:55)

• Cinematic Warfare: Mirbella observes the battle remotely, struck by the spectacle and its resemblance to “the Roman circus.” War is both horrific and weirdly entrancing.
  • “Frank does a good job of balancing Mirbella’s perspective… There is like, a strange ballet and pattern… a poetic aspect of war.” (32:19, Abu)
• Extremis Progressiva in Action: While the battle rages, Mother Superiors aboard Mirbella’s ship participate in “extremis progressiva,” rapidly copying Rebecca’s precious memory archive to preserve Bene Gesserit culture.
• Teg’s Setback: On the ground, his command pod is destroyed. When backups fail, Teg’s professionalism shines: “Shit happens. It’s war. It’s a battle.” (35:34, Abu)
• Odrade’s Capture and "Victory": Odrade is alive, a prisoner in the real (?) command center, as Logno surrenders: “You have won this battle. We are your prisoners.” (37:34, Logno)
• A Pyrrhic Win: Teg is uneasy; the ease of victory and oddly low casualties set off alarm bells: “They have a weapon we have not yet discovered.” (39:29, Teg quoted by Abu)
  • “It’s such delicate writing to make a victory feel uncomfortable.” (38:23, Abu)

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II. Philosophical Deep Dive: Extremis Progressiva & Cultural Survival

(44:16–66:25)

• What is Extremis Progressiva? The Sisterhood’s ultimate cultural failsafe: copying “other memory” exponentially among survivors to stymie genocidal threats and ensure the survival of Bene Gesserit wisdom should disaster strike.
  • “It is the identity of the Bene Gesserit. And Extremis Progressiva is their final… extreme effort to preserve as much of it as possible…” (44:34, Leo)
• Real–World Connections:
  • Holocaust & Oyneg Shabes Archive: Secretly buried Jewish testimonies and records in the Warsaw Ghetto mirror Rebecca’s perilous memory-carrying task.
    • “The Nazis also specifically targeted Jewish and ethnic, intellectual and cultural life… A total erasure of these people and their culture.” (48:24, Abu)
  • Romani Genocide: The predominantly oral traditions of the Roma people made their decimation doubly tragic, as both people and culture were erased.
    • “When you eradicate those people, when you break those networks of families and clans, you also erase the carriers of those traditions and histories.” (50:22, Abu)
  • Tibet & the Cultural Revolution: Destruction of monasteries and texts led Tibetan elites to establish archives and cultural exile communities in India to preserve their identity against assimilation.
    • “Deliberately a living archive of Tibetan religious and cultural knowledge… almost literally an extremis progressiva.” (57:15, Leo)
  • Other Cases: Ukraine under Soviet rule, the Taliban in Afghanistan, indigenous peoples in the Americas—all show echoes of extremist progressiva, where desperate individuals or groups find ways to pass memory and culture to future generations.
• Broader Reflection:
  • “For the Bene Gesserit… this can be literally any Bene Gesserit, where one person can organize… to gather as many stories as possible… Even in the archives from World War II… there was a loss of information despite their efforts.” (63:29, Leo)
  • The hosts also note the irony: other memory is both a “superpower” and survival mechanism, and Frank is drawing on millennia of cultural experience.

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III. Spice Morsels – Dune Lore & Real-World Connections

1. Arabesques (66:36–69:48)

• Description: The detailed patterns on Honored Matre robes reference an intricately interlaced floral art style, drawing directly from Middle Eastern artistic tradition.
  • “If you’ve seen a Middle Eastern rug… That’s arabesque, very flowery patterns that repeat and have a lot of interlacing lines.” (68:33, Abu)

2. Potemkin Villages (70:16–77:21)

• Origin: Named for Grigory Potemkin’s theatrical deception to impress Catherine the Great, “Potemkin Village” now means any superficial display meant to mask a less impressive reality.
  • “Potemkin Village came to denote any pretentious facade designed to cover up a shabby or undesirable condition.” (71:03, Leo reading Britannica)
• Dune Parallel: The honored matres’ showy displays—their parades, the staged command centers—are literal and metaphorical Potemkin villages. Their facade of dominance conceals fear and desperation.
  • “Their attitude of superiority, I think, is a prime example of a sort of mental Potemkin Village… Internally, fucking panicking.” (76:13, Leo)

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Memorable Quotes

• “I carry Lampadas… 7,622,014 Reverend Mothers. And they are rightfully yours.”
  — Rebecca (12:02)

• “You will call me Great Honored Matre, and you will learn to thank me for it.”
  — Logno (27:37)

• “They have a weapon we have not yet discovered.”
  — Miles Teg (39:29)

• “It’s such delicate writing to make a victory feel uncomfortable.”
  — Abu (38:23)

• “Exterminating a culture is horrendous, unspeakably evil. The efforts some individuals will go to, to save their cultures, can be unspeakably heroic…”
  — Leo (46:10)

• “For the Bene Gesserit, with their extremis progressiva, this can be literally any Bene Gesserit… Even in the archives from World War II… there was a loss of information despite their efforts.”
  — Leo (63:29)

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

• [05:01] Child Teg earns the army’s respect despite his age and voice.
• [09:59] Mirbella puts Odrade’s hidden memories to practical, diplomatic use.
• [12:02] Rebecca hands over 7+ million preserved lives—maybe the greatest act of memory in Dune.
• [16:55] Dama’s vulnerability: terrified exile and the mysterious “enemy.”
• [27:37] Logno’s “coup” – leadership of the Honored Matres changes instantly, with a glass of wine.
• [35:34] Teg’s detached, professional response to battlefield chaos.
• [39:29] Teg’s ominous warning: “They have a weapon we have not yet discovered.”
• [44:34] In-depth discussion: extremis progressiva as both plot device and allegory.
• [48:24] Real-world genocide parallels, particularly the Holocaust and Romani tragedy.
• [57:15] The real-life “living library” of Tibetan exile in India.
• [68:33] Defining arabesques and their cultural origin.
• [76:13] The Potemkin village as metaphor for Honored Matre society.

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Tone and Takeaways

• Conversational, passionate, and reflective. Abu and Leo blend deep Dune lore with personal anecdotes and real historical research, keeping their analysis accessible and emotionally invested.
• Balance of humor and gravity. Even grim historical topics are handled with respect; running jokes (e.g., child Teg's “Mickey Mouse voice,” Logno’s sudden ascension) counterbalance the heaviness.
• Episode Theme: The struggle for survival—on the battlefield and within culture—runs through both the plot of Chapterhouse and the real world. The fate of memory, identity, and power is at the heart of both Herbert’s fiction and human history.

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Next Episode Tease & Listener Engagement

• Next reading assignment: Chapters 43–45 (up to “With an abruptness that chilled her, she knew his decision.”)
• Mailbag requests: Listeners are encouraged to send questions and thoughts for the upcoming Chapterhouse finale Q&A episode.

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Final Thoughts

This episode expertly weaves together breakneck Dune action, high-level political gamesmanship, and the very real question of what it takes for a culture to survive existential threats. Whether you’re a longtime Dune reader or new to the saga, Abu and Leo’s discussion brings both narrative stakes and philosophical depth to life.

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Listen if: You want to savor the best of Frank Herbert’s writing—epic battles, tense negotiation, and timeless questions about memory and identity—all through the insightful, playful lens of two dedicated Dune fans.

Transcript

[A]

Have you noticed, Leo, that modern content tends to be quite short? Episodes once were long to provide a prestigious feeling of depth for the curious and impressing others with your media literacy.

[B]

Of course, these days you're important if you record and share at all. Ain't that the truth. Good Lord.

[A]

The short form is the death of a slave. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[B]

My name is Leo.

[A]

And Leo, yeah, today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're going to war.

[B]

Oh, yes, we are. Oh, my God. Yes, we are. Holy shit. Can I just say forgot the chapters that we read today. Just remembered. Oh. Oh my God.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. These are maybe the most action packed chapters that Frank Herbert has ever written in the Dune saga. It's quite a shock and I can't wait to get into it. But of course, folks, before we get into today's episode and continue our deep dive, chapter by chapter analysis of chapter house Dune, let's take care of some quick housekeeping, starting with our spoiler warning. Folks, you've been hearing this now for six books. You know the drill. As usual, today's episode will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we have covered thus far on the podcast. So as long as you did today's assigned reading, you should be good to go.

[B]

Indeed. And of course, as always, a monumental shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Seth Redding Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahinram, and Roger Young. Fellas, if I was on the battlefield and I found out that I had somehow lost the ability to tell you thank you, I would demand a hundred squawkers. Get those squawkers out.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I need to tell them thank you however far they are.

[A]

Why didn't we have backup?

[B]

Backup squawkers, Backups right now for the Please, patrons. It's that important.

[A]

What if they don't know how grateful we are?

[B]

Tell em as quickly as possible. And of course, thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level. We're all in this battle together and y' all make this show possible. So thank you so much.

[A]

That's right. And of course, we understand if you don't have the funds right now. Money's tight, the economy is in shambles. The Strait of Hormuz, as of recording, is still not open.

[B]

We understand true cost of podcasting skyrocketing, right?

[A]

Oil prices actually correlate directly with cost of production, so we're kind of fucked right now.

[B]

We run on crude.

[A]

We understand money is tight, and if you don't have the means to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, that's totally a okay, there's another great way for you to say thank you and show your appreciation. Check out the Buy me a coffee link in the show notes below. That is a wonderful way to send us a one time tip to say thank you and to help us keep the show running and we appreciate it greatly.

[B]

Do indeed. So with housekeeping out of the way, let's talk about today's plan. As always, this is a book club episode, so you all know the game plan. We're going to start with the summary of today's insanely action packed chapters. We will dive into a takeaway that I'm sure is going to bring the mood down. And finally, we're going to wrap up with some ooey gooey yummy spice morsels. But before we do all of that, we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere when we're back. Oh, we're going to war.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 hi diva, it's Rachel and Jordan.

[B]

Yeah, hi. Quick question.

[A]

Why are you not spending your Venmo Balance?

[B]

Yeah, we're concerned you can like buy stuff with it. Ugh. You love buying stuff and earn cash

[A]

back on eligible purchases.

[B]

Mm, you love purchasing eligible things.

[A]

So the money your friend sent you yesterday, that's today's ramen or rideshare or eye patches.

[B]

The skincare kind, not the pyro kind.

[A]

Spend with Venmo and you can earn cash back with Venmo Stash. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo Me Terms, Idaho verification required to use a Venmo Balance. Welcome back folks. Let's dive in to our chapter summaries today, starting with chapter 40. In our first chapter today, tag launches the attack on Gamu Folks, we're right in the middle of it. He is standing at his command bay on the flagship, looking down on Gamu, coordinating the attack. And to really paint this picture for you, don't forget that we're not Talking Grizzled Old 7 foot tall miles Tag, commander of the Bene Gesserit army. No, we're talking child Tag with the squeaky little voice giving out commands to everybody on his little horseshoe comm link.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But squeaky voice or not, the way the battle is going has instantly earned every soldier's respect. Nobody at this point is questioning whether this child, this Mickey Mouse child, is actually the legendary Miles Tag. That is the Bashar that they all know and have trusted in many battles before. And here he is doing what he does best. It's very impressive. Now what's most impressive and what most of the people out here don't realize is that Deg's got a secret power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He can see the Gnostics that they are facing on the battlefield. And he is deploying his forces to perfectly counter the no ships out there who think they're invisible.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, so cool.

[A]

Which of course is having devastating effect on the enemy. You know, they're completely caught with their pants down at this point. And what a little note that I found interesting is that Tag also has to hide his ability from his own troops. He can't like, let on that he can see the no ships. So he's like, his battle plan is sort of strategic enough to make it look like the legendary Bashar is just getting lucky or is so smart and outmaneuvering the enemy because he's, you know, he's kind of like using his legend as an excuse for why he's able to just like so easily obliterate the enemy. And the no ships that shouldn't be there.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, oh, classic Straga Hominov defense, where they put two ships in the blind side of the. And everyone's like, wow, he knows so much about strategy. Wow, it's so cool. And I love that idea that even amidst this very high stakes battle, Teg only trusts people as much as he has to. He keeps his cards very close to his chest when it matters. And we also see the validation of how important it is strategically in this universe to be able to see no ships. Right. Like, this is the goose that laid the golden egg. Yeah. That people have been searching for in this galaxy for thousands of years. Because the first person to nullify Gnoships would be Unstoppable based on, like, modern warfare.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And we see that in action here. It's so cool. Had a fucking good time with this chapter. It was great.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, a great chapter. Well, let's not forget that while the attack on Gamu might be going very smoothly, Tag is out here obliterating the enemy with ease. This is not the main attack. The attack on Gamu is simply a feint. It's a distraction. It is a punishing lesson for the Honored Matres. Odrade's parting words to Tag are actually ringing in his memory as he overlooks the battle. She told him, honored Matres must be taught a lesson such as, never before attack us and you get hurt badly. Press us, and the pain can be enormous. End quote. This is a flex. This is the sisterhood flexing on the Honored Madres.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, Teg is, of course, as we said, doing exactly that. He is putting the hurt on the Honored Matre forces out here. Until suddenly, Mirbella commandeers his communications board. She hacks into his fucking console from her own ship, which is at a safe distance nearby. She overrides his controls in the middle of the battle and begins responding to a particular request from the perimeter. There's a little skirmish happening on the perimeter of the battlefield. Teg is ignoring it because it's not a major thing, but Mirbella feels it's important enough to literally interrupt Teg's command and talk to the folks on this perimeter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tag obviously, is furious. He's like, holy shit, you just took the controller from me.

[B]

Yeah, let me beat the boss. Mirbella. Good Lord, Boss.

[A]

What the fuck? Verbella. But no, she's like, I'm the older sibling. I get the controller. Sit down. And she listens to this request from the perimeter. There's a field commander out there who is reporting that there's some refugees, they need asylum, and that these refugees are claiming that the Sisterhood owes them sanctuary.

[B]

Mm. Interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Mirbella, who has downloaded Odre's memories, obviously also has downloaded the truth of the Hidden Jews and their long relationship and coordination with the Sisterhood. And so she obviously kind of puts two and two together here, especially once they learn over the comms that the refugees are none other than the Rabbi and his people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. She puts it together quickly.

[A]

She puts it together quickly. Tag confused this entire time. But Mirbela obviously knows what's going on, or at least has a better picture of what's going on. So the Rabbi's party is brought aboard as we near the end of this chapter. Tag stomps down to the carrier hold to meet these refugees that are so important that Mirbella had to take control from him. And he finds the Rabbi made argument with some brown robed woman whose eyes he can't see at the moment. Mirbella herself arrives from her ship to meet these people personally. She walks right up to the woman and greets her. And this is where Teg realizes what the fuck is going on here. Because the woman reaches up and removes contact lenses from her eyes, revealing that she has the total blue within. Blue eyes of the bad. The eyes of someone who has gone through the agony. Here is somebody out in the wild on Gamu. Not a sister who has undergone the agony. It's Rebecca, of course. A wild Reverend Mother.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're told in this chapter that this is perhaps the first wild Reverend Mother we've encountered since the Fremen days of Dune. Since the first book thousands of years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's another bombshell that wraps up the end of this chapter. We learn that Rebecca is carrying something so deeply important. And this will come up later in our takeaway too. Quote, I carry lampadas 7,622,014 reverend mothers. And they are rightfully yours. End quote.

[B]

God damn. I appreciate a specific precious cargo indeed.

[A]

Yeah, very specific.

[B]

And those 14 will never be forgotten.

[A]

That's right. No rounding errors here.

[B]

Wow. What an incredible end of the chapter. And really a staggering representation. Like we heard earlier when, oh, Trade receives news that Lampadas is destroyed. She's shocked. No survivors. Oh, my God. Yeah. The staggering loss of Lampadas. And now we have the number. Now we have this number of full Reverend Mothers who managed to make it via Lucilla, via Rebecca, back to the sisterhood. It's just such an insane amount of information. That's crazy.

[A]

It's huge.

[B]

Well, that carries us into chapter 41. And we are at the start of chapter 41 with O'. Draid. She's in the lobby of Junction's Planetary Shitty Two Star Motel. And their escort, their honored material attendees are late. So rather than fume passively, rather than get herself all worked up, she does something so fucking whimsical, I goddamn love it. She starts messing with the little, like, service robos, the, like roombas.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Scooting around the hotel lobby, basically just like, putting shit in their way, kicking them off course, just watching them, like, have no ability to recover. Like, beep, boop, Fuck my job. No. And of course, as she does this, she thinks, quote, unquote, honored Matre have little or no sense of humor and quote, echoing some of Mirbela's earlier advice. And sure enough, Dortujo, the Tuj is fucking loving it. She's just like me, smiling ear to ear. Sweepole, sweet, efficient Sweepole is delighted and Tam is disapproving as always. But, you know, I can't help but think that she's smiling internally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Nevertheless, this little prank is more than just a prank, Right? This is a message. This is a subtle, psychological, deliberately absurd message aimed at the people that she knows are watching them. Right. She knows they're being closely observed. Every action is being dissected and analyzed. So she's giving them this, like, absurd red herring to chew on. She's already begun her first move in the negotiation before anyone has even said a word. It's so much fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, eventually, Honored Matre arrive. Oh. Draid is brought before the Spider Queen. We have our official meeting of Dama, the head of the Honored Matre, and Odrade, the head of the Bene Gesso.

[A]

Oh, my God, the headline Fight of the night.

[B]

Unbelievable. And after the, like, action packed chapter just previous, there's so much whiplash from external action to internal action. Like, this chapter is deeply internal. All tiny micro expressions and observations. And I really appreciated that switch of the grandeur of the Gamu feint being this huge spectacle. And now you just have two women going toe to toe, everything on the line, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, Dama is nothing like the Bene Gesserit expected, quote, a small woman expected stringy muscles visible under red leotards beneath her robe. Face a forgettable oval with bland brown eyes, orange flecks dancing in them. End quote. Forgettable. Good Lord. All right. Wow. Fair enough.

[A]

Savage.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, Trade's like, yeah, she's like a six. But I'm not going to remember her when I walk out of here because I'm a 10. Sweet Pole's like, top Odrade.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

For her mind alone. Now, the negotiation itself is a masterpiece of subtext. Right? Odrade is probing. She's assessing. She's actively identifying this other player that she's sitting across from in this galactic chess match. And she confirms Dhamma's key vulnerability in all of this. She cuts right to the point. The Honored Matre were driven back to the old empire and are terrified that that enemy will find them again.

[A]

Yeah. This has been hinted at for, like, two books now. And Odrade finally confirms the theory.

[B]

It's so. I don't know, Evocative the moment where Dhamma is, you know, getting pissed off and then kind of, she. She quiets down and then she gets pissed off again. And there's a moment where o' Draid kind of threatens her with, well, you know, we could make sure that they know where you are. And there's a moment of just utter stillness. And it's like Dama's afraid.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That doesn't piss her off. That scares her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought that was such an interesting moment because she reacts with so much anger. The moment that she doesn't react with anger is that much more profound, I think.

[A]

Right, I agree.

[B]

Now, there is also, throughout this chapter, this kind of unspoken Sadness to the 100 matres that I thought was really compelling. Like, of course, yeah, they have a lot of talk. They are strutting around in their leotards like, I'll fucking kick you in the neck. But they are exiles. They want nothing more than to go back home. And there's this passage, really, this telling passage, painting this tragic picture of these bloodthirsty women. She was dealing with wealth in an extreme. It would be hard for some to imagine. Nothing Dhamma wanted, nothing that could be provided by the society subservient to her would be denied. Nothing except freedom to go back into the scattering. End quote.

[A]

Oh, my God. What a passage.

[B]

It's like she's got everything she could ever want except for the one thing she actually wants. Right. It's just so.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Oh, it's beautiful. And again, her anger and her rage is disarmed by the idea of what waits for them out there and what they fled.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So their meeting is kind of takes place in a few different locales. Eventually, Odrade is taken to what we're told are Dahmer's real quarters. I will admit, I've got no fucking clue. These are actually her quarters. Because I feel like every other page, Odrade was like, ah, this is the central spider webs. Oh, that was a faint. That was a made up.

[A]

This must be a no facade.

[B]

Oh, this is the. No. This one's a fuck. Okay. And then, oh, truly, this one, surely this one is no, this one's also bullshit. Okay. And I think that's kind of. Yeah, I think that's the point. We're really not sure.

[A]

Yes, the. The disorientation is the point. You know, we. We're inside Odrade's head and she is putting together the pieces in real time while she is in a life and death situation.

[B]

Yeah. Absolutely. And again, Frank is writing to keep us right there with her in that experience, but we are getting the sense that these rooms that she's passing through, it's like those girls out on the field playing the sports when they arrived. All of this is to flaunt and to signal a certain status of the honored matre. And broadly, that's all it is. Now on the balcony, as they step out onto the balcony, Odrade is entranced by this enigmatic sculpture. The Ballet Master is the name of it. It's this feathery, androgynous figure suspended on shiga wire, dancing in the wind. You know, depending on how it moves in the breeze, it looks like someone walking or dancing or leaping. Very. Sounds very cool, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

[B]

And Dama very casually says one of her predecessors stole it from a planet they conquered and that she thinks it should have been named something else should have been named being unknown, which gives us maybe a bit of sense of Dhamma, the art curator. She's like, I don't like that title. You know, it's like, okay, sure, editorialize a little bit. And interestingly, this calls to mind for Odrade Shiana's sculpture the Void, and she kind of silently draws a parallel between the two works of art. It's the wild thing no one can govern. End quote.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Which, you know, for an organization like the Bene Gesserit, who their whole shtick is maybe being a farmer, maybe being a cultivator, but also just politics, the ungovernable, the unwrangleable, the unmanageable doesn't fit into that picture. So, again, alarming when it's Syanna, but also makes a lot of sense when it is Dama and her love of this sculpture.

[A]

Yeah, I found it really interesting, and I think a big through line for Odrade's character that Frank has hammered on quite a bit. You've brought this up time and time again during our book club coverage, is Odrade's sensitivity to art. There's a reason the Van Gogh painting of the cottages speaks so deeply to her. There's a reason she woke Duncan Idaho in the middle of the night being like, look at this painting. What does it make you feel? Yeah, I think art to o', Drade, is a deeply human thing, something that connects us to the parts of ourselves that maybe we can't articulate with mere words. And something about the art that Shiana is creating, to her really strikes a resemblance to this being unknown and. Or this ballet master art that Dama has put up on her balcony. And the fact that there's something wild to this piece of art, there's something unknown, that's a scary concept to a Bene Gesserit who is part of an organization that loves to be in the know and loves to control all the wild things and pull all the strings.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. It's kind of antithetical to the desire for the Bene Gesserit to claim things. And even the formlessness of this sculpture is not enough for Dhamma. She doesn't even want it to be called ballet master. She wants it to be called being unknown, even more hard to classify and hard to qualify.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Well, Damma reveals in this conversation that what she seeks from the Bene Gesserit is their immunity to diseases. A really interesting reveal in this chapter, hinting that what drove them from the scattering might have been a biological danger, something they couldn't fight with traditional weapons. And it also becomes clear through this conversation to Odrade that Dama is not seeking an equal alliance. She's not even considering the possibility of, like, joining forces, but that she is offering the Bene Gesserit forgiveness if they agree to total subservience to the honor matrix.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

The arrogance just that, you know, just, you know, just be totally subservient to us and we'll forgive you. You know, it's fine. You say partners, I say our slaves. Tomato, tomato. It's basically the same, you know, Exactly.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I found this incredibly funny.

[B]

Oh, it's so good. I also wanted to point out, oh, draid clocks. The fact that Dama's, like, trying to negotiate but has no fucking clue how to do it. Yeah, I thought that was so fun. I think we commented on that possibility on the Dhamma Lucilla chapter that Lucilla kept, kind of mocking Dhamma's inability to have a coherent conversation. But Dhamma was floundering, trying to, like, how does one offer something when one also doesn't want to give up anything? It's really. It's a fascinating little moment. And Odrade clocks it immediately. So I felt very validated by that observation.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

And ultimately, you were right that, like, this moment, this offer of, you know, we'll be your slave masters, you'll be our slaves, everyone's going to be happy. This is the pinnacle of arrogance and vindictiveness that the honor matre represent. They can't even fucking picture a scenario in which they are not the Dominating all powerful force.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And o' Draid realizes, yeah, I was correct to unleash tag. That is really the only way we're going to move forward. We cannot negotiate as equals with these women. And I'm glad I've set the dominoes falling as they are currently falling during this conversation.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Now, the chapter ends on an absolutely legendary note, and I need to reemphasize that while I have read this book before, I don't remember all of the details. I. Yeah. Didn't see this coming. This guy for a second time. This caught me up card twice. Crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, Log. Now you remember. Log. Now, Logno comes in, brings in some wine for Dama and Odrade. And Dama assures o', draid, hey, it's not poisoned. You know, takes a sip. O' Draid sips, detecting a foreign substance and identifies it as something that is intended to nullify the shear in her body. Right. This is a organic compound that's supposed to make her more permeable to t probe so that they can get. She neutralizes it.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And then she fucking tells them she neutralized it, which is such a fun. I know. She, like, downs her glass, chugs a glass of wine. Hey, yeah, that was kind of had a. Had an active biological component. I deactivated it, though, so no worries. Your plan failed. I enjoyed a glass of wine. Everyone's going, great. Dama's super pissed by this. She's like, someone's gonna die. Fuck this. I'm so pissed. She takes a moment. She looks out to her vineyards, and Logno watches the great honor matre. Expectedly, Odrade realizes what just happened as Dahma collapses dead on the floor.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And thus, classic. Dama's dead. And now Logno is the new spider queen, and she announces herself. Quote, you will call me great honored Matre, and you will learn to thank me for it. End quote.

[C]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

What a fucking day. I feel like you go into this meeting and you go, okay. Oh, trade or Dama are going to die. Right? And then Ohrade survives, and you go, well, Dama died. And you're right, but it's. It's Logno that kills her. And now Logno's the boss. Fascinating. What a fucking incredible twist.

[A]

Truly, truly, I did not see it coming. And honestly, it got me a second time. And I just. I found it so incredibly funny how Dama just got got by Logno in this moment. Rip Dama, she was a real one, but this was such an incredible scene. Good on Logno for taking an opportunity.

[B]

She. She dresses for the job she wants. You know, she. She really goes for it. But I also do think that, like, there's an element here where we saw throughout Dharma and Logna's interactions in the book where, like, Logna is too close to Dama and Dom is like, you back the fuck up 3cm. I see you within kicking distance. What do you want to do? Die?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we see how cautious she is of Logno. But maybe it is testament to how dire the honored Matre's situation is and how bad everything's going where, you know. Oh. Draid's pilot detonates himself. That confuses Dharma. Right. Rip to clairvoy who blew himself up in this chapter.

[A]

I believe that's right. Gola.

[B]

Him, Gola the cyborg. But also this attack on Gamus happening. And, like, all of this shit's going on. This is perhaps another kind of show don't tell moment from Frank, showing us exactly how distracted and off her game Dama is, no matter how confident she presents herself. Yeah. That she let Logno get her with something as fucking simple as poisoning her. You know, I think that's a great point.

[A]

The fact that she got got so easily by such a simple trick, I think, is a subtle reveal to us that Dama is extremely off kilter at this moment. She's on the back foot in every sense and probably just grasping at straws to maintain power. Gamu's under attack. The sisterhood has the upper hand on us. We're totally fucked. And Logna's like, great, I'm gonna use this instability, and I'm just gonna. I'm gonna get this lady. Yeah. I've been trying for years.

[B]

Yeah. She's distracted. Her mind's occupied.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's really an interesting little moment that we move on from basically immediately just the crumpled body on the floor. And then we're like, all right, and now we've got a new spider queen.

[A]

And that's right.

[B]

Let's see where it goes from here.

[A]

Yeah. Great chapter. This was a highlight for me in this entire book. The confrontation between o' Draid and Dama and then the Logno twist at the end. I was like, ugh. Chef's kiss. Great chapter. Start to finish.

[B]

Same. Great time.

[A]

Okay, let's wrap up our summary. One more chapter to go. Chapter 42. This one, we are thrust right into the battle of Junction itself. It's happening, folks. Throughout this chapter, we get these, like, really Cinematic. I could really, like, picture this chapter in my mind the way that Frank wrote it. We get these, like, really cinematic cuts between a couple of different perspectives. We start the chapter from Mirbela's perspective. She is watching the battle take place from her no Ships command center. She's watching from. Obviously, there's calm eyes on the ground showcasing, you know, every aspect of the battle so that the commanders can keep an eye on it. And she's watching the events take place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what's interesting is she's processing this battle through this metaphor of the Roman circus. She almost sees Tag as, like, the ringmaster. Right. Like, leading his troops. And this gives the battle this, like, sort of detached quality. Like, obviously, there's bloodshed and horror taking place on the screens in front of her, but there's also, like, a strange beauty to it. There's, like, a strange ballet and pattern and performance to it all. And I think Frank does a good job of balancing Mirabella's perspective here. She recognizes that these are real people getting hurt down there and that war is terrible. But as many stories about war have explored, there is like, a weird attraction and beauty is maybe not the right word, but some sort of, like, poetic aspect of war, just because humans have been at war so much. And I think Frank somehow balances that really well in this chapter from Marbella's perspective as she watches what's going on.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it doesn't have to be condemning, but it is captivating.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great.

[B]

The idea of warfare and this, the human cost and everything. Frank plays with this a lot, with this idea of, like, war and violence as a sort of release of tensions. And in the same way that you might have a cathartic release of joyous tensions and sexual tensions and all sorts of things, I think that this is just that same continuity or that same spectrum of tension release that Frank writes a lot about in his books. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, like, without judgment. Just saying it is marvelous. I also have to imagine seeing Teg in action, seeing anyone be great at something. It has that kind of air of,

[A]

like, there's a spectacle to it.

[B]

Yeah, it is spectacle, for sure.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. And there's also the detached quality of Mirbela is up in a no ship in space watching what's happening. I'm sure the experience of what's actually happening on the ground is dramatically different for the folks.

[B]

Very true.

[A]

So there. I think that's a layer to it as well. Now, an important note that we Learn about what else is going on in this. In this no ship. And perhaps most importantly, what's going on in this no ship is that there are mother superiors aboard this no ship with Mirbella who are hanging out with Rebecca in the other room, downloading Rebecca's memories in a process of extremis progressiva. And we're going to be talking a lot about extremis progressiva later on in our takeaway, but essentially, they are taking those 7 million. Ish. I mean, I'm gonna round because I forget what the exact number was.

[B]

14. Something something. 14.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

12. Oh, shit.

[A]

They need to preserve all of those memories from Lapadas that are right now sitting inside one person, Rebecca. So they are spreading those far and wide from one sister to two sisters to four sisters to 16 sisters, and trying to make sure that those precious 7 million memories are never lost. And so that is taking place in the other room in the no ship. Now we switch perspective and we go right down to the battlefield. Now we're with Tag, and in this short little section, Tag is really in the thick of it, assaulting the Citadel of the Honored Madre. And his command pod, through which he has been directing the battlefield, gets hit with a laser and it's blown up. And he turns to one of his subordinates and he's like, that's. That's okay. We always have backups, right? Get me to the other backup command pod. And the subordinates like, oh, shit, we don't have a backup command bot. And I could, like, feel Tag's anger through these words here. I was like, oh, you do not tell Teg there's no backup command pod. And that we fucked up and didn't do our jobs. But that's exactly what happened. He's furious, obviously, but look. His response is that of a soldier who has seen many battlefields. He's like, shit happens. It's war. It's a battle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, okay, I get it. Let's improvise. He, like, grabs some squawkers, which seem to be some sort of mobile radios, and orders another command pod down. And, you know, gets to it, gets back to it, doesn't skip a beat. This is Miles Tag in his element on the battlefield, doing what he does best. Now, finally, and perhaps most importantly, we switch perspective to Odrade herself, which for most of this chapter, folks have been assuming is dead because her signal has been completely cut off ever since Logno took power. And they have no idea whether or not they will find Odrade alive and well in the Citadel once they breach it, or they will find her body. But once we switch to her perspective, we realize that she is still alive and Logno has taken her prisoner. Odrade is, in fact, watching Tag out the window, assaulting the citadel as the armies come closer, and she's assessing everything around her. She's now been taken to a different room, a different command center.

[B]

But this one's real. This one, we promise. This one's real. Is it?

[A]

Are you sure?

[B]

No. Even we don't know anymore. We just work wherever we are, right?

[A]

Even the honored mantra is so confused. They're like, fuck, which one was the fake command room and which one's the real one?

[B]

Meet you in command room B7. Is that the real B7 or is that the fucking fake B7? Oh, no.

[A]

So we're in a command room. Logno clearly not having a great time watching her forces get defeated by Miles Teg out there in the window. And in fact, the final defensive perimeter of the Citadel, the stronghold of the Honor matre here on the planet, collapses, and it becomes clear that Miles Tag has won. The battle is over. And so Logno turns to o' draid and announces, quote, you have won this battle. We are your prisoners. End quote.

[B]

Dude.

[A]

Wow. Victory. That was kind of easy.

[B]

This whole fucking chapter made me so uncomfortable.

[A]

Like, I know the fact that.

[B]

Because she also walks to within a pace of Odrade to tell her that, and I'm like, when's the fucking kick coming? Like, yes. Oh, my God, I was so tense.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The whole chapter. And even after this, like, hey, we're your prisoners. Where do you want us to go? I was like, no, no, something's wrong. And of course we'll get the whole, like, yeah, something is wrong in a second. But, man, again, just. What good writing that we got this partial victory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, okay, yeah, the battle is over.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But something's not quite right. And how do you write that? It's so good. Oh, it's so good.

[A]

Yeah. It's such delicate writing to be able to make a victory feel uncomfortable. Right?

[B]

Yeah, that.

[A]

That is hard to do. And again, Frank Herbert, a very experienced writer by this time in his career, does it so well in this chapter. And you're right, that feeling you had, the whole chapter is absolutely correct. When Tag finally links up with o', Draid, the two of them also have the same feeling. They're like, this was kind of easy, right? Like, how did we just, like, win this? And how do they give up so quickly. And Tag especially is on edge. He senses something is wrong. He's looking out at the battlefield from the command tower. One of the fake command towers. Who knows? And he's realizing that the casualties are just, like, way too low. This is not the Honored Matre that we've been preparing to fight for years. This should have been a much tougher and much bloodier battle. And in fact, looking out on the battlefield, he doesn't even see, like, that much bloodshed out there. Like, it's kind of a clean battlefield for taking over the Honored Matre and defeating them once and for all. Yeah, you'd expect it to be much worse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, Tag's decades of battlefield experience are setting off alarms. He realizes something's off here, man. This is not right. And the chapter ends on exactly that ominous note. Teg says, quote, they have a weapon we have not yet discovered. End quote. They have a trump card, folks, and they are preparing to use it. This is a bluff, dude. They're not giving up.

[B]

So spooky. So spooky to be like, there's no blood on those bodies. What killed them? Oh, fuck. This isn't over yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, it's not over. Oh, so good.

[B]

You mentioned how, like, cinematic this is. This, like, cinematic intercut. This is such the end of an episode right before the fucking credits roll.

[A]

That's right. It's so good. Yeah. This is pure cinema, for sure. What a great chapter. And honestly, like, that wraps up our chapter summaries. And I will say, this is a great set of three chapters. Like, completely action packed, but also with that classic Frank Herbert. Two people in a room talking, and you're on the edge of your seat. Like, the Odrade Dama chapter could not have been more thrilling. And it's crammed between literally two miles Tag Battlefield chapters, and all three of them feel equally thrilling and exciting and cinematic. I was a big fan of today's reading.

[B]

Yeah, dude, same. And ultimately, like, I know that a lot of people's complaints about Chapter House are the kind of slow burn chapters at the beginning, but I think that's the whole point. And I think that these chapters feel so vivid and visceral because it took so long to get here. I do think about, like, Brian's books do have a lot of action in them, a lot more of this kind of stuff, but it's just always. It's like, cover to cover. So it just kind of feels exhausting and to, like, hold off until this late stage in the book. To get these kind of moments. It's so great. I don't know. It's. It's. It's very fun. And I think we have a lot more of the philosophy and sort of what is at stake and what is this battle of minds? What are the stakes and what. Who are these players? We have very clear answers to those questions in this moment of very high stakes, where at any moment it felt like, oh, Jade could be lost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The feeling of this character who was so comfortable on Chapter House, walking between orchards and, you know, always six steps ahead of everyone. It just feels so much more vulnerable because we've had all of these, you know, the last two books of her basically being in charge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's. Oh, it's so good.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you can't claim that Frank Herbert is not the master of a setup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You could criticize him that he perhaps sets. Takes too long setting things up. Too many setups, but the man knows how to set up the stakes.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[A]

All right, so that wraps up our chapter summaries. We are so close to the end of this book. I'm truly on the edge of my seat. Let's take a quick break, Leo. When we come back, we're going to get into a takeaway. Takeaway is a bit of a bummer, but it's important to talk about, so we'll dive in after this. We'll see you in a minute, folks.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Welcome back, everybody. We hope you enjoyed your break. All right, let's get into our takeaway today. Our takeaway today is about Extremis Progressiva. Throughout the last two books, Frank has made the nature of the Bene Gesserit other memory extremely clear. This is not just a cool parlor trick that Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers can do. This is the stories, this is the goals, this is the extended experiences. But it's also the dogma, it's the institution, it's the wisdom. And we're kind of realizing today it is also the culture of the Bene Gesserit. It is the identity of the Bene Gesserit. And Extremis Progressiva is the Bene Gesserit final kind of extreme effort to preserve as much of it as possible in the face of potential annihilation. From today's reading, we get this. Millions of memory lives, all concentrated in what the sisterhood called extremis progressiva. 2 by 2, then 4 by 4 and 16 by 16, until each held all of them. And any survivor could preserve the precious accumulation. End quote. Yeah, so it's this exponential airdropping where you eventually have every person, has every copy, and now only one person needs to survive. And honestly, we've already gotten a success story, a tragic success story of this happening. Lompidus was destroyed. Odrade asked, any survivors? No reported survivors. But Lucilla got away. Lucilla was, as far as we know, the only survivor of the entire planet. And through Rebecca was able to save the collective memories of over 7 million and 14 reverend mothers absolutely astounding. But this also got us thinking. As always, Frank uses his writing, right, to channel the real world through his lens explorer. Maybe what humans are capable of, both on the good side and the bad side, you know, exterminating a culture is horrendous, unspeakably evil. And the efforts that some individuals will go to, to save their cultures can be unspeakably heroic and unimaginably courageous and incredible. And Frank, as always, channels both sides of those coins through this 30 or 40,000 year filter into the timeline of Dune. So along those lines, this is very robust setup. But along those lines, we wanted to take a look at Some historical examples of the Bene Gesserit extremis procrasiva, a couple of real examples of cultures and the means they used to preserve themselves in their final hours. You know, one of the most kind of incredible things a culture can do when it's being hunted down. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And look, I think we both feel that it's most appropriate to start with World War II and the Nazis treatment of the Jewish people and the Romani people, given that the rabbi and Rebecca and the hidden Jews are such a predominant part of this book.

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

Now, looking back at the history of it again, we're going to be briefly summarizing. We're not experts on this material and we can't possibly cover all of it. But looking back on it in the context of extremist progressiva and this idea of preserving culture beyond the literal killing and sterilization of Jewish people themselves, the Nazis also specifically targeted Jewish and ethnic, intellectual and cultural life. It wasn't just about the people and eradicating them. It was about eradicating their entire culture and history and what it meant to be a Jewish person. They would burn books, there was looting, there was destroying of archives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is a total erasure of these people and their culture. The Holocaust Encyclopedia puts it this way. Quote, this included books by Jewish authors, pacifist works that criticized war, and works praising or promoting leftist political movements such as socialism and communism.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

End quote. And you'll note in that quote from the Holocaust Encyclopedia, it wasn't just about erasing Jewish religious texts. Right. It didn't just stop there. It was about erasing anything that went against the Nazi worldview. Anything that aligned even loosely with a Jewish perspective or Jewish ideologies.

[B]

Right. Or like non Nazi perspectives. Right. Like even Democratic intellectuals were getting rounded up and homosexuals and Romanis and people who didn't fit this like nationalistic Nazi worldview were fair game. Right?

[A]

That's right. And so, and we say all of this to again emphasize the point that the erasure went well beyond the rounding up and murdering of the Jewish people themselves. And you mentioned the Romani in particular. I think what's tragic about the Romani is they were a predominantly oral culture with very little written traditions. And the Roma Holocaust, the Holocaust of the Romani people was devastating for entire families and clan networks who were the primary carriers of their traditions. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was these clan members that would pass down through generations through their oral culture and oral storytelling, their culture and traditions and history. And when you eradicate those people, when you break those Networks of families and clans. You also erase the carriers of those traditions and histories.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So bringing this around to the idea of extremist progressiva, how did the resistance against this kind of eradication crystallize? Well, one example that you dug up in your research was the. I don't know if I'm going to say this right. It was the Oyneg Chavez archive.

[B]

Your guess is as good as mine. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Someone please correct us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A group secretly buried tens of thousands of documents, testimonies, artwork and records inside the Warsaw Ghetto in everything from milk cans to tin boxes, so that future generations would know what had happened and how Jewish life had been lived. So that feels very akin to the Bene Gesserit downloading the memories of the Lampada's horde who are dead. Right. They've been eradicated. They no longer exist. But through Robeka, they are able to at least hold on to those memories and the culture there.

[B]

Yeah, man. Honestly, this is where I feel like my schooling was just so inadequate, where we're doing a Dune podcast and we're learning about. And we're choosing to step outside of talking explicitly about Dune and looking more at human history. But I always learned so much doing this kind of research. And between Emmanuel Ringelblum, who was the organizer of the Oyneg Chavez, again, deep apologies for not knowing how to say that, and also the shockingly long journey of the Romani people for even being recognized as victims of Nazi extermination. I was seeing as late as, like, the 60s. There was the opinion that they were just. It was like, oh, yeah, well, they were criminals, so that's why they were killed. And then it was recognized as. No, it was like racial and cultural targeting today was a lot of learning, and it's very sobering stuff.

[A]

It is.

[B]

I know that this is people's lives and this is people's family histories, and it just maybe doesn't get the time and attention it deserves because I, you know, again, makes me that much more hesitant when people are talking about banning or burning books and trying to repress people and their cultures today. It's like, have we learned fucking nothing from history? You know, and, yeah, I think that's. I've heard that from a lot of Jewish friends, too, about, like, currently Palestine and, like, what's going on there, and friends in Ukraine and their families. It's like, it is this repetition of violence, and it really is not acceptable, no matter who is perpetrating it basically, at all.

[A]

Right, right. And I suppose the silver lining here Is that the work and sacrifices of the people who created the Shabaz archive and who contributed to it and have continued to cultivate it, and the families and clans who continue to carry on the Romani oral traditions. The silver lining and perhaps the lesson there is there is always a way to fight back, that there is always a way to preserve. And there is always a way to say no. My people, my beliefs, my culture, my history, they matter. They deserve to be written down. They deserve to be passed on. And the generations that will come after me need to know about them. And I think there is a sad and tragic but powerful message there totally, that people who were being eradicated chose to create something and contribute to something that passed on well past their lives in order to preserve who they were and how they lived.

[B]

Yeah. So incredible. I mean, milk cans and tin boxes to preserve culture. It's just. It's so cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, another real world example that came to mind is the Cultural Revolution in China, which in the 60s began in earnest a decades long war against the so called four olds. Now, according to the National Archives, these four Olds were old ideas, old culture, old customs and old habits. This included intellectuals, scientists and senior officials. End quote. So I was raised Tibetan Buddhist and in Berkeley, California, which is not a coincidence that they happen in the same place. Berkeley, California has got a lot of hippies, and I'm not innocent of that label, but I grew up hearing Free Tibet and I grew up hearing about the plight of the Tibetan culture. And this is that if you've ever heard that, basically temples, monasteries in China and adjacent to China. So Tibet is a region in China, for instance, temples, monasteries, classical texts were systemically destroyed. And in particular, Tibet really did suffer this huge destruction of Buddhist monastic culture. And it's honestly wild how much, first of all, this is still happening. For anyone who wants to get into fun Tibetan Buddhist tea, the Panchin Lama was named by the Chinese government as someone who can help name the next Dalai Lama, who's the head of the Tibetan people. And Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetans are like, no, you can't name the next Tibetan Lama. Like, we have our process for identifying the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government's kind of actively trying to take the reins of Tibetan Buddhism. And honestly, the other thing that kind of blows me away is just like how much this isn't really talked about. And I get it, like, the Dalai Lama is kind of a niche subject for a lot of people. But Tibetan Buddhism is a pretty sizable sect within one of the biggest religions in the world. And the fact that it's literally hanging in the balance is really. It seems under discussed to me. But this is also my bias as someone who was raised in the culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of interesting. How did resistance take shape? And in this case, families, individuals hid books, they hid artifacts, they stashed and stored ancestral records. A huge number of Buddhist monks and scholars fled to India. And in fact, the community, the Tibetan exile community in Dharmasala under the Dalai Lama became actually deliberately a living archive of Tibetan religious and cultural knowledge, which felt very on the nose because this is almost literally an extremist progressiva. Right. They are intentionally removing themselves from the dangerous area and dedicating themselves to preserving that culture. And, in fact, the library of Tibetan works and archives was founded in 1970, basically explicitly for this purpose. So that's also why, by the way, the Dalai Lama hasn't been back to Tibet in, like, 70 years, because they fled. They fled to India. They fled into exile so that they wouldn't be persecuted.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I also wanted to talk about this partially because we've seen Frank dip his little tootsies into Buddhist ideology throughout the last six books, so I feel pretty comfortable. My tinfoil hat theory is that he would have been very cognizant of all of this, especially in the 60s and 70s as Berkeley and the west coast were, like, protesting Free Tibet, all of that. I feel like it would have been on his radar. So additionally, I see this as a pretty clear. Maybe this was in his head. You know, I'm gonna go out and say, I think for Frank, as he was writing about the Bene Gesserit extremis progressiva, I think the plight of Tibet might have been one of the things he was considering, in addition to very obviously the Jewish people and what they've dealt with, as Rebekah and the Rabbi are prominent characters in this book. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And, folks, if you're listening to this and you're going, oh, well, this Tibet thing sounds like it was, like, 50 years ago. So this is, like, happening today, too. Right now, the Dalai Lama is aging out, and there's a huge succession question hanging in the balance, and China is doing everything it can to control that succession and sway that succession in order to subsume Tibet back into its culture and to basically wipe out its independence. So I definitely encourage folks to look into it. It is both fascinating and deeply sad and horrifying how the Tibetan people are holding onto the culture by what seems like a very thin thread. There's a great YouTube video by the channel Search Party that I highly recommend about this, about the history of the Dalai Lama and the many like crazy attempts by the Chinese government to subvert the Dalai Lama and to like install their own fake Dalai Lama and cause like a schism within the.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Belief. It's wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this stuff is like literally happening today. It's not just stuff from like the 60s and 70s.

[B]

Yeah. And honestly, like Religion for Breakfast posted a video recently because the Dalai Lama announced that he would. He would potentially announce his succession plan on his 92nd birthday, which was like very recent. And he didn't. But leading up to that, the religion for breakfast YouTube channel talked a little bit about this and I thought, man, what a fucking weird time to be a Tibetan Buddhist. Good thing I'm not. Oh no. Like, oh shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh no. So anyway, it is, it is very. It's currently going on.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a bad PR move to be like, we're gonna kill all your people, all your people and commit a genocide. And it's much more sneaky to just do a very slow multi generational genocide based on your policies. And that appears to be what's happening or what China is at least attempting to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In Tibet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, moving on from those two examples, we do want to acknowledge that there is just simply no way this takeaway can be comprehensive. Human history is full of examples of extremist progressiva cultures that are pushed to the brink of extinction. And thanks to the brave record keeping and sacrifices of a few people, those cultures and their histories survive in some way, shape or form and are maintained, which is the essence of extremist progressiva for the Bene Gesserit. But really briefly, we did want to just touch on a couple of other examples that we felt are notable. Again, we'd be here for years if we tried to cover every example of this. And of course there are examples we will never know about because those cultures weren't preserved and they were eradicated and nothing remains of their history and their people and their traditions. So very quickly, of course there's Ukraine under Soviet persecution. That is a very modern day example currently taking place. There was Afghanistan under Taliban rule, the Mayans and Aztec erased by the Spanish conquistadors, of course, very similar to that here in the United States. The eradication of indigenous peoples culture and subjugation by US policies. I was absolutely shocked when after I watched Killers of the Flower Moon, the Scorsese film, I read the book, which goes into much more Detail. And it is just, just horrifying the very conscious and deliberate choices that the United States made to completely destroy the indigenous people and their culture. Speaking of inadequate education, I wish someone in school had taught me that shit.

[B]

Yeah, no kidding.

[A]

Because I didn't learn it until my 30s when I chose to pick up a book and read it, Read about it myself.

[B]

Yeah. The forced charter schools where people were being, it was like, separated from their parents and state approved is so fucking crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Education is a very dangerous tool that you can wield to eradicate someone's culture. Right. Like, and it can be subtle. It doesn't even have to be forced. It can be like, oh, whoops. The nicest and most well funded school for 50 miles happens to be our very Christian white school. I guess you got to send your kids here. There's no other options.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then you do your best to erase a whole generation of people. And like that. That was very deliberately happening to the indigenous people in the United States where you limit their options to create a better life for themselves. And the only way to do that is if they assimilate. And that, that is a tale as old as time. Extremis progressiva is a tale as old as time, tragically, in human history. These are just a couple of examples from history. Of course, there are countless more.

[B]

Yeah. So wrapping up just to bring this back fully to Dune and where all of this connects together, I think one of the things that jumped out at me as we were doing this research is the common thread of, in communities facing existential cultural threats, the formation of kind of specialized carriers or individuals or groups, small groups who dedicate themselves to doing this good thing, preserving the culture in the face of that threat. And whether this was individuals like elders or scribes. Right, right. We see archivists, we see people, individuals take action to organize the memories and the stories and the language of the group into a form that can outlast the suppressive efforts of the persecutor. This really powerful pattern that starts to emerge. And for the Bene Gesserit, with their extremis progressiva, this can be literally any Bene Gesserit, where in the modern age, one person can organize a group of people to gather as many stories as possible. Even in the archives From World War II for that Jewish community, I think only two of the three major burial sites were found. So there was a loss of information despite their efforts. And here we see the superpowered ability of the Bene Gesserit. Not only is other memory, you know, this thing that whispers to you and threatens you with abomination and whatever, it's also the superpower of carrying all of the memories and lives of millions akin to other things in Dune. This is really just Frank Herbert's kind of distillation of this human pattern, of these specialized carriers taken to a biological extreme. And we thought that that was really interesting. We thought that that shined a new light on other memory as not only this power. We've talked about how it's a restriction, how it's the shackles of dogma, how it's creepy and weird over the years, but seeing it also as this lifeline for cultures to persevere is also really beautiful. And honestly, first time I had thought about it in those terms.

[A]

Yep, same here. I had always pictured it as a superpower, as an incredibly thorough Google search in your brain that you can instantly tap into.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But to also think of it as an archive, as a library of lives and traditions and histories, I think that adds more weight to the concept of other memory and the idea of passing it on and passing it down.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So that's our takeaway for today. Let's talk about our spice morsels before we wrap up today's episode. We got a couple of good ones for you folks.

[A]

We do indeed. Let's dive right in. Hope you're hungry. Let's start with arabesques. So in today's reading, when Odrade is first approached by the honored matres, we get this description of them. Two women came in through an arched doorway from the flagstones. Both wore red robes with glittering arabesques and dragon shapes on them. Sue stones shattered for decorations, end quote. And it's always fun when Frank actually takes the time and uses the words to describe someone and something, which is something he rarely does in these books.

[B]

I know. I was like, holy shit, adjectives. My God, you're eating well today. This is great.

[A]

Exactly. So we wanted to take this opportunity to really picture how these women are dressed when they come to meet Odrade, and in particular, dig into arabesques, which is a word that not everyone may be familiar with. So to define that word, Merriam Webster defines arabesques as, quote, an ornament or style that employs flower, foliage or fruit and sometimes animal and figural outlines to produce an intricate pattern of interlaced lines, end quote. So this is an art style arabesques, and it's tough to describe over audio. So honestly, we recommend you pause for a second and just Google arabesques and check out Some of the patterns, they're really pretty stuff. Honestly, the best way I can describe it is I grew up around arabesque styles my entire life, because these are very, like, Middle Eastern. Like, if you've seen a Middle Eastern rug, if you've bought a rug and it has, like, what you might typically think is, like, a Middle Eastern pattern on it, that's arabesque, very flowery patterns that repeat and have a lot of interlacing lines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The word itself, looking into its etymology, it has roots in Latin and Arabic and Italian. For example, in Italian, arabesco means Arabian fashion, literally the style of Arabia. And in French, arabesque also means Arabian style. And, of course, it's finally found its way to English as the word arabesque. Now, one quick note about this word and its definition. It can also be used to describe a posture in ballet, which feels a little bit notable because the honored matre we know are these lithe, muscular women who use their bodies to great effect. And, of course, in the reading today, we literally have reference to the ballet master, this work of art hanging on Dhamma's balcony. So we are starting to paint this very visual picture of honored madre culture and what it might look like when you actually meet these women. So to wrap up now, we have a clearer picture of how the honored matre are dressed when they strut into this room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To meet with Odrade.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can clearly picture some of the bling that the shattered sounds for decorations, the patterns that might be on their clothing in arabesque style, and the colors that they're wearing, the bright reds and the blacks. It's a striking image.

[B]

Yeah. Very subtle. That's great. Well, for our next morsel, we've got Potemkin villages.

[A]

This is great.

[B]

Get ready. It's not what you think it is. Maybe it is. Who's to say in today's reading, we get a real understanding of the song and dance, the honor matre performing for the Bene Gesserit guests. And o' Draid has this thought quote, so other action centers were for show. Potemkin villages built for Reverend Mother. Now, we, of course, rolled up our sleeves. Abu, did you know this term before we did this episode?

[A]

I did know this term. Yeah. I didn't know the entire history of it. I just knew, like, what it means.

[B]

I have heard it. I don't know that I could have told you, like, if someone had said, hey, have you heard this idea? Yes, I've heard it, but I don't know that I could have defined it. So you're a step ahead of me. But for sure, I didn't know any of this fucking history. So this is fun. This is cool.

[A]

Yeah, the history is fun.

[B]

Basically, to talk about Potemkin villages, we gotta spit some bars about Grigory Potemkin, a Russian army officer and statesman Born in 1739. What a great year. And a favorite of Empress Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her? And Grigory has a fucking wild life. There are so many anecdotes about this dude. Among those anecdotes are his shenanigans, setting up a grand imperial tour for Catherine of this newly acquired kind of southern territory. This is from Britannica. Catherine's tour of the south in 1787 was a triumph for Potemkin, for he disguised all the weak points of his administration. Hence the apocryphal tale of his erecting artificial villages to be seen by the Empress in passing. Potemkin Village came to denote any pretentious facade designed to cover up a shabby or undesirable condition. End quote. So it's worth noting the tale of him building these villages along the riverbank, right? Having people erect this village before they're in line of sight. They see it from a distance, this cardboard cut out of a fucking village. And then they go, wow, what a great village along the riverbed. And then they continue their march down the. Down the river, and as they're out of sight, they deconstruct it, run down the street with it, set it up a little bit further down to reuse the materials. It is unknown how exaggerated this is, like, how historical this is, but this is actually the origin of the very real term, you know, whether it was the full rigmarole, you know, he's building Downtown Disney every fucking, you know, mile or so. Or it was just maybe a subtle dressing of make sure there are extra people, you know, or whatever. Potemkin Village today refers to any construction, even policy or presentation, intended to hide a shittier reality from outside observers. And I have to say, if you want to have a good old time, just Image search Potemkin villages. There are some fucking incredible examples online. I saw this one, this brewery in the Czech Republic, where the entire front of it is this, like, brightly painted. It looks great blue and white. It's beautiful. And then you circle around to the back and it's fucking falling apart. It's terrible. It's, like, in ruins. So fun. I think it's called Castle Brewery. So cool. And honestly, I also wanted to pat myself on the back connection I made last episode. In discussions of Potemkin villages, North Korea does come up often, in part because of. And I don't know how to. Kijong Dong, I think this uninhabited town. This was a full town constructed in the 1950s to lure South Koreans into defecting. Look how great everything's going. They were blasting propaganda messages loudly. Oh, it sure is fun here. We're having a great old time. Oh, good. Everything's great. For years. And then South Korea started blasting counter propaganda across the border again, things I wish I knew earlier. And fun fact, their most recent campaign of loudspeaker propaganda only stopped in 2018, on the day of my 28th birthday. I don't know that they're related, but I suspect they are. And I appreciate the silence that I was gifted from the north and South Koreans. Anyway, all of that's very interesting. Back to Dune. All of this rings profoundly true for the Honor Matre, not only in their treatment of Junction for the benefit of oh Trade's party, but also, I think, in their broader attitude as well. And that's why I'm really glad I looked into this. Because, you know, of course, there's the obvious example, the, you know, something that Grigori would be very fond of. The thousands of young women playing a. With a suspensor ball when o' Draid arrived, literally Potemkin village behavior, but less literally than that, and I think even more subtly, Dama, in her final hour, as she is so off foot, she misses poison in the wine. She was absolutely strutting. Oh, at any moment now you can bend and kiss my ring anytime. When you feel. When you feel moved to. I'm sure it'll happen any second now. Her attitude of superiority, I think is a prime example of a sort of mental Potemkin Village. It's this shitty. It's this, like, shiny, glitzy facade. The shattered sounds on their beautiful arabesque, you know, leotards. Great internally fucking panicking. And it's not all what it appears.

[A]

Right, Right, exactly.

[B]

And honestly, I wanted to shout out the fish speaker in God, Emperor of Dune, who was captured by the Tleilax. So I think we learned about them in, like, chapter five. The honored matre have fallen for their own bluff. Recall the quote, quote, long pretense creates a reality, end quote. I think they are living in their shitty cardboard cutout villages that they've constructed in their minds, and maybe they don't even know it.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great call out. It's a delicate house of cards, and there's no foundation actually holding it up. Maybe it looks impressive from far away, but boy, is it easily toppled. One glass of wine, you know, is all it takes, apparently.

[B]

Yeah. And then you're toppling card houses of cards everywhere. And I get it, your coordination is bad. You had a glass of wine, you know, it's fine, but.

[A]

Right. You can't walk straight, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great research there. The history behind Potemkin Village. So fascinating.

[B]

Super fun.

[A]

All right, folks, that's today's episode. My goodness, what a great one. Again, loved these set of chapters. Here's your homework for the next book club episode, folks. My goodness, the end is nigh. For the next book club episode, make sure that you have read up to page 481, which is chapters 43, 44, and 45. And if your version of the book is different than ours, then just read through the chapter that ends on this sentence quote. With an abruptness that chilled her, she knew his decision. End quote. Oh, my God. Decisions are being made.

[B]

Oh, my God. He decided to finally watch Discovering Witches on Netflix. No, no, no. Yeah. Wow. All right. Yeah. What did he decide? Yeah, we'll have to wait to find out.

[A]

I'm looking forward to it. That next episode, part 15, will be the penultimate.

[B]

So crazy.

[A]

The Chapter House book club coverage is 16 episodes, six books. Folks, we are really in the end game now.

[B]

That's insane. Well, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. And the two best ways. Oh, you'll never guess, it's the same two. As we've talked about all the other episodes, One is become a patron [e-mail] gomjabbar the other is to get some Dune themed swag from our merch store, gomjabbar Shop. Those links are in the show notes. I'm hard at work making some new merch. Check it out. Fun stuff. It's all very cool and we really, really, like, cannot thank you enough for the support. It makes what we do possible.

[A]

And of course, we love to hear from you. So Please email us gomjabbarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your questions. Of course, send us cute pictures of your pets. As we near the end of this book, we will be hosting a live Q and A, a mailbag episode all about Chapter House Dune. So now is a great time to email us your questions. Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com so that we have enough time to do our research and answer them properly and include them in that final episode. So write to us and say, hello.

[B]

Yeah, tell us, how many arabesques do you have in your home? And also, when have you put on a performance for someone that could be described as a Potemkin village?

[A]

That's right, fess up, fess up. We've all done it.

[B]

We. You're doing it right now. Stop. You can tell your village isn't that big, right?

[A]

Girls at a Potemkin village. In my pants or. Y' all know where I was going?

[B]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Loraparty. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.