Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 15)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 15)

Hosts: Abu & Leo
Date: July 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this penultimate episode of their Chapterhouse Dune Book Club series, Abu and Leo tackle Chapters 43–45 of Frank Herbert’s final completed Dune novel. As the story careens toward its conclusion, the hosts break down critical moments of transformation, goodbyes, and the high-stakes gambit to merge the Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres. Through insightful analysis, witty banter, and poignant appreciation for Herbert’s depth, the episode explores what may be the central thesis of the last two Dune books: radical adaptation as the key to survival.

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Chapter Summaries & Key Insights

Chapter 43: Shiana’s Goodbye

[05:16–16:51]

• Shiana Stands Alone: The chapter opens with Shiana at the desert watch station, observing Chapterhouse’s burgeoning desert and reflecting on the tiny sandworms—far from their Arrakeen ancestors but promising future growth.
  • “What survives of Leto II inside of these particular descendants, these tiny worms out here on Chapter House? …She wonders, could she follow herself in the tyrant’s path?” — Abu (06:02)
• Temptation of Power: Shiana contemplates the possibility of donning sandtrout skin, following Leto II’s path. Both hosts discuss her creative impulse and temptation to shape history, but agree this is ultimately a thought experiment, not a plan.
  • “I get it. Especially because we’ve seen, I think this is key, right? Like we’ve seen her have this desire to sculpt and to create. And you think about the marks Leto left on the universe. That's gotta be tempting for someone with the creative impulse, like Shiana.” — Leo (07:37)
• Longing for Home: Shiana’s melancholy is contrasted with Odrade’s nostalgia; Shiana realizes she’s never truly belonged on Chapterhouse and is seeking her own path and place.
  • “She can be that whirling, dancing child in the sands, kind of carving her own destiny and no longer be…a puppet for grander powers.” — Leo (09:44)
• Secret Scheme with Waffy: Shiana and her trusted aide Waffy (Wali) converse in layered Bene Gesserit style, masking the true plan: smuggling worms onto the no-ship and escaping with Duncan.
  • "She’s just gonna, like, fucking blast off with these worms out into space and not do any of that. And Wally seemingly is, like, in cahoots with her on that too." — Abu (14:12)
• Goodbye & Hope: The chapter closes with urgency as returning ships narrow Shiana and Duncan’s escape window. Shiana recognizes her opportunity as “an unrestricted universe…a blank canvas and draw their own destinies.”
  • “My migration will seek the new, but I must find a planet with moons.” — Shiana (quoted by Abu at 16:40)

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Chapter 44: The Fall of Odrade & Rise of Murbella

[16:52–30:52]

• Junction Fallout: Murbella relives the aftermath of the battle: Teg unconscious, Streggy dead, Odrade killed—off-page, in classic Frank Herbert style.
  • “Fucking Frank had the gall to have shit happen off page. And now we have to figure out what it is.” — Leo (17:42)
• Murbella’s Return to Honored Matre Persona: Facing armed Matres led by Elpek, Murbella feigns loyalty and tricks, displaying deadly competence and reverting to old Honored Matre tactics.
  • “She is right back to her Honored Matre sass…She taught me admirably. Any other questions?” — Leo (19:12 & 20:36)
• Showdown with Logno: In the command center, Murbella disarms and verbally demolishes Logno with lines that the hosts savor for their savagery.
  • “You consider yourself powerful and clever. One begets the other, eh? What idiocy. You’re a consummate liar and you lie to yourself.” — Murbella (quoted by Leo at 23:04)
  • “You are headed for extinction. The problem is that you take so infernally long. Dying, inevitable, but, oh, the boredom. Meanwhile, you dare call yourself great Honored Matre. Everything about you is a cesspool. You have no style.” — Murbella (quoted by Leo at 24:08)
• Transfer of Power by Killing: Logno is baited into attack—it ends in swift death for Logno and her aides, establishing Murbella as the new Great Honored Matre. Odrade is killed in the crossfire by Elpek, giving Murbella undisputed leadership.
  • “What an incredible character. Genuinely sad. Even knowing this is coming on a reread. It’s so sad. Such a character.” — Leo on Odrade’s death (27:48)
• Aftermath and Acceptance: Murbella takes Odrade’s recent memories and issues orders, effortlessly slipping into her role at the helm of both the Honored Matres and, soon, the Bene Gesserit.
  • “She is immediately accepted as effectively the new Great Honored Matre…this is how power is handed over in the Honored Matre.” — Leo (29:27)

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Chapter 45: Murbella Assumes Command; The Path Forward

[30:59–41:14]

• Dual Leadership: Murbella returns to Chapterhouse as both Mother Superior and Great Honored Matre—fusing red (Matre) and black (BG) leadership.
  • “I got chills when I read the line that Mirbella sat down in the Mother Superior's chair in her red Honored Matre robes. It’s just this physical image of these two sisterhoods coming together.” — Abu (32:52)
• Practicalities of Power: Immediate actions—she directs the Rabbi and his party to the no-ship for safety, checks on Duncan (who is strangely preoccupied), and strides into the Mother Superior’s office to claim her new seat.
• Proposition for Merger: Murbella confronts the Honored Matre council and uses blunt, commanding language to force through the merger with the Bene Gesserit, framing it as a weaklings’ only chance at survival.
  • “Compared to me, with what I acquired from them, the lot of you are miserable weaklings. …You are children with no knowledge of what you might become.” — Murbella (quoted by Abu at 34:32)
  • “Your kind I dispose of quickly. Dead before you know you’ve been injured. That is my response to the presence of filth. Is there any filth in this room?” — Murbella (quoted by Leo at 35:30)
• Internal Conflict & Grief: Murbella converses with Odrade’s other memory. To be both leader and partner to Duncan is impossible—she grieves privately for the love she must now forfeit.
  • “That’s a decision you make for yourself. Family, and what binds it? What tickles life and happiness.” — Odrade (quoted by Leo at 38:39)
• The Plan Clicks: As Duncan and Shiana’s departure becomes imminent, Murbella recognizes the cost of leadership: her personal loss enables the birth of a new order.
  • “Duncan and Shanna, they’re going to escape. Duncan is going to leave her. She is going to permanently lose the love of her life.” — Abu (40:15)

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Main Takeaway Discussion: Odrade’s Gambit and the Great Merger

[42:32–61:56]

Was Odrade’s Sacrifice Planned?

• Both hosts assert, citing text, that Odrade always anticipated and accepted her sacrificial death as essential to the plan’s success—ensuring a clean transfer of power and eliminating potential for divisive succession struggles.
  • “Odrade set those dominoes to fall. And even with Odrade’s recent memories in mind, Mirbela’s looking down at the body going, yeah, that’s what you planned.” — Leo (45:47)
  • “She herself dies so that the mantle can officially be passed to Mirbella with no question.” — Abu (46:41)

The Shape of the Merger: Evolution, Not Assimilation

• The hosts unpack how the merger is not an equal union but rather the subsuming of the Honored Matres by the Bene Gesserit, with the goal of evolving the Sisterhood into "Bene Gesserit 2.0"—a synthesis of discipline and unleashed energy.
  • “One day there would be no honored madres, only reverend mothers with improved reflexes and augmented knowledge of sexuality.” — Frank Herbert, quoted by Leo (52:01)
• Odrade and Taraza’s vision is traced back over both books, portraying the Honored Matres as a “mirror” for BG’s own flaws and the seed of a necessary, if radical, transformation.
  • “The Bene Gesserit’s greatest existential threat is ultimately an internal one—their own kind of desire for perfection and conservatism.” — Leo (54:25)
• Murbella serves as the prototype of this new order—retaining emotional capacity (love for Duncan) and decisiveness, but capable of hard leadership choices.
  • “Mirbella is a bene gesserit 2.0. She is in charge of both sisterhoods now equally.” — Abu (58:33)
• Golden Path parallels: The merger echoes Leto II’s grand evolutionary push—deliberately catalyzing change through the fusion of opposites.
  • “We get to humanity’s survival, we get to the Golden Path, but it required the Bene Gesserit to become something they’d not recognize.” — Leo (60:55)
• The takeaway concludes with the recognition that what appears a risky gamble is, in fact, the only real hope for survival—an “opening chapter,” not an ending.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

[Key Quotes with Speaker Attribution & Timestamps]

• “She wonders, could she follow herself in the tyrant’s path?... Wham, bam, new tyrant. We got a new wormy boy. Except it’s a wormy girl this time.” — Abu (06:46)
• “You have no style. …Everything about you is a cesspool.” — Murbella (quoted by Leo, 24:08)
• “If you teach Honored Matres the kind of philosophy and worldview of the Bene Gesserit, they become Bene Gesserit. They are so similar that…you stop being able to even differentiate.” — Leo (50:17)
• “Your kind I dispose of quickly. Dead before you know you’ve been injured.” — Murbella (quoted by Leo, 35:30)
• “Gordian knot refers to an impossibly complex problem that is essentially the definition.” — Abu (64:04)
• “We’ve got to merge two podcast genres—the Daily by Michael Barbaro and Gom Jabbar—we’re going to need a council!” — Abu (02:20)

Memorable Banter

• Odrade’s death prompts genuine mourning from both hosts (27:48), and several lines from Murbella’s battle of words are relished as top contenders for most savage putdown in the series.
• The humor of discussing “banana cakes” plans and Honored Matre complaints about the cafeteria lunch menu keeps the tone light alongside the analysis.

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Spice Morsels

[62:59–75:10]

1. The Gordian Knot

• Origins: Alexander the Great’s legendary solution to a complex knot by slicing it, a metaphor for bold, decisive solutions over patient unraveling.
• Application: Murbella faces impossible, tangled problems—her approach, like Alexander’s, is to cut through with direct, forceful action.

2. Pyramids and Dao

• Explores the brief philosophical dialogue between Murbella and the internal Odrade: Daoism (as non-effort, living in the now) and the metaphor of interlocking pyramids (other memory as a multidimensional web, not a linear chain).
• Insight: Herbert employs Eastern philosophy and novel spatial metaphors to illustrate self-reflection and the collective memory of the Sisterhood.

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Final Thoughts & Next Steps

• The hosts revel in the richness and poetic beauty of these final chapters, marveling at Frank Herbert’s ability to tease out immense thematic depth while keeping the emotional stakes high.
  • “This final act of Frank’s final book is the culmination of an idea that’s been building since the earliest pages of Heretics.” — Leo (59:25)
• Next Episode: The climactic conclusion! Listeners are urged to finish the last three chapters before the final book club discussion.

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Episode Structure Timestamps

• [00:00–05:16] Opening banter, Patreon and support shoutouts
• [05:16–16:51] Chapter 43 summary and analysis
• [16:52–30:52] Chapter 44 summary and analysis
• [30:59–41:14] Chapter 45 summary and analysis
• [42:32–61:56] Takeaway: Odrade’s merger, leadership, and adaptation
• [62:59–75:10] Spice morsels: the Gordian Knot, Daoism & interlocked pyramids
• [75:12–end] Wrap-up, reading assignment, community call-outs, and signoff

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Closing Quote

“There is no real ending. It’s just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Mahdib and leave us a review…” — Abu (78:07)

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For the Final Book Club Episode:
Finish Chapterhouse Dune and send in your thoughts or questions for the Q&A to gomjabarpodcastmail.com. And as always, “whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.”

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Transcript

[Abu]

Make me see myself and my former listeners this way.

[Leo]

What way?

[Abu]

Damn you. You know what I mean.

[Leo]

Former listeners, you say?

[Abu]

Oh, you are insidious.

[Leo]

All podcast hosts are insidious.

[Abu]

You never stop recording, do you?

[Leo]

Oh, is that what I do?

[Abu]

How innocent. I was asking you what you really do.

[Leo]

You know as well as I do we wait for listeners to subscribe. The algorithm only provided them opportunities to listen, but now they need quality content.

[Abu]

There's a sneak peek into our production meetings.

[Leo]

Oh, are we recording? Oh, shit. We're recording. Wow. Yeah. I thought we were off mic. Oh, damn.

[Abu]

This was an internal meeting. Didn't mean to leak this.

[Leo]

Oops. It's a hot mics in the middle of our business.

[Abu]

So insidious.

[Leo]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh, and today on the show, we are almost done with Chapter House Dune. That's insane.

[Abu]

Say it ain't so.

[Leo]

I am actually kind of sad about it. What a fucking good book. I'm having so much fun. But before, before we get into it though, let's take care of our housekeeping. As always, today's episode, no spoilers. So if you're caught up with where we are in the book club series, you are safe. We're not going to talk about anything past the pages and the books we've read thus far.

[Abu]

That's right. Although that spoiler warning is becoming less and less useful at this point.

[Leo]

We won't spoil three more chapters.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. We can't forget our loyal council members, Daniel Dion, Seth Redding, Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahanram, and Roger Young. Ooh, folks, you would sit on my internal council as we merged our podcast with the Daily by Michael Barbro.

[Leo]

Up first by npr.

[Abu]

That's right. Imagine up first and Gom Jabbar merging. Two completely incompatible podcasts. But we would need a council to help us with that merger. So cuisat's had rank level patrons. We hope you're up for it.

[Leo]

Yeah, there's a lot of questions to answer. And of course, that thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level. Truly, you make what we do possible and we cannot thank you enough.

[Abu]

And of course, a reminder that if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter on Patreon, which is the best way to help us keep the show running. You do have an alternate way to show your appreciation and help us keep the lights on. And check out that buy me a coffee link in the show notes below. That is where you can send us a one time tip to say thank you indeed.

[Leo]

And hey, listen, new movies coming out. Dune's gonna be on the tip of people's tongues. Free way to support us is just to tell them about your favorite Dune podcast.

[Abu]

That's right. So tell everybody.

[Leo]

So helpful. We really appreciate it. And it's completely free, which is great. Especially when the straight of her moose is still closed. Telling people's free. All right, today's episode. Y' know the game plan. We will begin with a summary of today's chapters. Then we're going to dive deeper into a takeaway. And finally, we're going to wrap up with some yummy spice morsels. But before we do any of that, we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. It would be ridiculous to only listen to this part and then to stop. We'll be right back right after this.

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's dive right into today's chapter summaries starting with chapter 43.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

So our first chapter today opens on Shiana.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Who is standing alone at the desert watch station, her former quarters overlooking a transformed and transforming planet around her. As the desert continues to expand here on Chapter House, here's a shocking detail. She can smell worms in the distance. There are worms.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

But folks, these are not the worms that we know and love from Arrakis, the old men of the desert. The worms currently on Chapter House are tiny. They're small. They don't hold a candle to the legendary 400 meter long worms that the Fremen once conquered in the deep desert. But Shiana is confident that as the desert continues to expand and as Chapter House continues to evolve, so will these worms. And they too will one day grow. Indeed, we get a couple of thoughts from Shianna here as she looks out over the desert. She wonders, for example, what survives of Leto II inside of these particular descendants, these tiny worms out here on Chapter House? Does anything of the tyrant survive still within the worms? And this train of thought leads her to what I thought was a pretty shocking question. She wonders, could she follow herself in the tyrant's path? She knows that there's plenty of sandtrout out there in the desert of Chapter House now. And all she'd have to do is follow in Leto's footsteps, except the sandtrout as her skin. Wham, bam, new tyrant. We got a new wormy boy. Except it's a wormy girl this time.

[Leo]

Yeah, first wormy girl.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's a tempting possibility. It's a way for Shiana to escape the shackles of her current situation. And for her to really take on a significant role in the universe and all of that, yes, is very tempting. But of course, we have the 3,500 year lessons of the tyrant and Shiana understands the risks. So this is more of a thought experiment and not something she's actually pursuing.

[Leo]

Yeah, but dude, if I was someone like Shiana, like Atreides blood, all this experience and now Bene Gesserit awakened Reverend Mother, I would also be tempted. And I get it. Especially because we've seen, I think this is key, right? Like we've seen her have this desire to sculpt and to create. And you think about the marks Leto left on the universe. That's gotta be tempting for someone with the creative impulse, like Shiana.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's such a great point. I think you're spot on. I agree it's a tempting proposition for Shianna, but she has other plans, as we learn in these chapters, and as has been hinted throughout this whole book, Shiana and Duncan have been scheming to get in that note ship, hit those thrusters and get the fuck out of here.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And so that is what she's going to be committing to. And in fact, much of this chapter serves as a way for Shiana to say goodbye. The Writing is really somber and melancholic and her thoughts are, like, tinged with this, like, deep sadness and nostalgia. And it's clear that Shiana is out here looking out over the desert, basically saying goodbye to the life that she has known for years.

[Leo]

Yeah. Also I think her really putting a label on not feeling at home on Chapter House, like she's not really felt like she belongs on this religious podium, like she belongs in this position at the Bene Gesserit. And I think the reality, that idea at the end of this chapter where she talks about finding a planet that has two moons, it's really a desire to find a place where she feels that she belongs, that she really feels like she can be herself. She can be that whirling, dancing child in the sands, kind of carving her own destiny and no longer be either a child or a puppet for grander powers. It's really, you know, it's a goodbye. But I find that her goodbye is so juxtaposed against Odrade's goodbye, where she was going, I'm gonna miss all of this. And Shiana's seeing all of this and going, this is nice, but it's not my home and I miss my home.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And I want to find a new home.

[Abu]

Right, exactly. That's such a great point. She thinks back to Arrakis a lot in her thoughts here and back to her childhood. And now her parents and her community were killed. You know, her childhood was ripped away first by Shai Hulud attacking and then by the Bene Gesserit wrapping her up in their own schemes. And so I think you're absolutely right. Like, Shiana is seeking her own path, her own destiny that isn't wrapped up in other people's schemes and seeking her own home, because this has never felt like one.

[Leo]

Right, yeah.

[Abu]

Now, standing out here at the desert Watch station, continuing with our summary, her assistant Wally joins her at the window and they begin to speak in sort of the typical Bene Gesserit secret language of subtext, layers within layers, in order to conceal their true plans from the watchdogs, who are, of course, always watching. They start by discussing the Missionaria and the sisterhood's original plans for Shiana. They had planned to prop her up as some sort of new prophet, this epic survivor of the attack on Arrakis, who can speak to worms and speak directly to Shai Hulude.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it's clear that both Wally and Shiana are deeply skeptical of this plan. It's an old fashioned way of thinking, you Know, it taps back into this, like, typical Bene Gesserit playbook, the thing they've been doing for like thousands and thousands of years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Shiana even says, quote, religions are never really controllable, but some sisters think they could aim a religion built around me. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And despite her skepticism, Shiana does understand the potential. Right. She would be a very powerful lever to move the universe with. She would give the sisterhood a lot of ammunition because there is like this mystical aura around her. She can talk to the fucking worms after all. Yeah. But ultimately, like, the sisterhood should know the risks of this type of religious fervor by now. Shiana thinks at one point, quote, so my name has become a shining light in the darkness of honored madre oppression. How easy for that light to become a consuming flame. End quote. Were she to be thrust into prophethood, into godhood, there's the potential for her to subjugate the galaxy. Just like a certain, you know, all the Draedes that we know and maybe his son, the God worm we call the tyrant. Like, we've been through this cycle before. And Shion understands that this is like a tired strategy. It's not going to work again.

[Leo]

I love this, the idea too, because like flames are destructive and they're short lived. Right? Like that's. That is such a. It's an old play that did not work and would not work. And in fact, if that's the light at the end of the tunnel that some sisters, as she says, are looking at as the salvation for the Bene Gesserit, they're fucking doomed. And it's like, yes. So I almost see her also, like, escaping all of this is kind of doing a favor to the Bene Gesserit. She's like, it is. I got to get the fuck out of here. People still think I'm the solution. These idiots, short sighted. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Absolutely. That I think is totally spot on. And you know what I found interesting is that the thing that these sisters seemingly believe will be different this time around is that Muad'Dib and the tyrant were men.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And that religions built around women are more powerful and perhaps easier to control and mold and shape. And so Shiana would totally be different. Trust me, it's not going to happen again. I think we both share Shiana's skepticism. Frank wants us to share that skepticism. Like religions are never really controllable. It doesn't matter who the figurehead is, man, woman, whoever. And so really the plan is for her and Duncan to Escape in that no ship. And so she secretly discusses plans with Wally here in this scene, they talk about moving some worms to the great hold of the no ship, you know, oh, I'm just going to study them in the lab. Don't worry about it. Like, let's just transfer them real quick.

[Leo]

Right? Just need to do some work, you know, Obviously.

[Abu]

Right, yes, of course. You know, I think I can, like, study them and teach other sisters to talk to them. Wouldn't that be cool? And the whole time, Shiana knows she's just gonna, like, fucking blast off with these worms out into space and not do any of that. And Wally seemingly is, like, in cahoots with her on that too.

[Leo]

Dude, get yourself a friend who understands you. Like, Wally, she's just like, I don't know. I mean, if only I could teach people. Wally's like, you should take a few back to send.

[Abu]

I'll send you.

[Leo]

This is the friend who, like, sees that you've had a hard day and is like, oh, can you do me a favor? Can we go get a beer together? Can we. Can we hang out? Yeah, like, let's just do me a favor and just chill with me, you know, Wally's great.

[Abu]

Love Wally. Okay, wrapping up chapter 43, Shiana goes out into the desert. After chatting with Wally, she looks up into the night sky, and she's feeling anxious because she realizes that the ships from the attack on Junction are due back, like, any minute now, any day now. It could be tonight, it could be tomorrow. And her timeline is quickly shortening. Her and Duncan have to spring into action and get out of here before the Junction mission returns. And in fact, she looks up into the night sky and she sees these arcs of fire streak across the sky. And they're back. The ships have already returned from Junction. She recites the litany to herself to calm her nerves. And a poem from the tyrant even comes to mind, one of the poems preserved in Daris Balat. And all of these thoughts basically coalesce into a feeling that I thought was really powerful and really thematically impactful for the book. Shiana feels like she has won this chance to become the only ultimate artist to be presented with a blank surface upon which she can draw anything. She describes it as an unrestricted universe. If she and Duncan can successfully escape, they can start again with a blank canvas and draw their own destinies, which is ultimately what Shiana wants and perhaps has always wanted. Her final thoughts, in fact, are tinged with this beautiful mix of hope for the future and a little Bit of nostalgia for her past. Quote, my migration will seek the new, but I must find a planet with moons. End quote.

[Leo]

Of a place that is right for her.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The little girl who grew up in the desert.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Yeah. This last chunk of the book is so poignant and so poetic and so beautiful.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

Well, that's chapter 43. And then we're into chapter 44. And dear listeners, we saw this chapter coming, but it doesn't make it any easier. So, no. Buckle up, put on your seatbelt, put on your little comfort blanket, get your, I don't know, stuffed toys. Close. Because this is sad. The chapter opens with Merbella processing the aftermath of Junction. Shocking events that followed the battle replaying in her mind as an eerie afterglow. Fucking Frank had the gall to have shit happen off page. And now we have to figure out what it is.

[Abu]

This fucking guy.

[Leo]

It's fucking love.

[Abu]

He loves doing this.

[Leo]

Oh, he's a fan. Teg Unconscious on the floor. Streggy, Dead.

[Abu]

What?

[Leo]

Slumped to the ground, dead in a bloodless death.

[Abu]

She had so much potential.

[Leo]

She was a great horse. Feed her oats. She's wonderful. Oh, Jade standing in shock. All of these images are running through Murbella's thoughts as she's questioning, quote, what else could I have done? End quote. And we're left to wonder, what the fuck happened? Frank, what are you doing? What are you doing? Oh, okay. So basically this is what happened, right? They were in a good position. Everything seemed good. But as Frank and o' Draid talked about on the balcony, this. This all too easily won victory was not, in fact, a victory. They were blindsided by Honored Matre forces using their mysterious weapon that they brought back from the Scattering. And Mirbella rushed groundside alone in a flighter from the no ship. And at the landing flat, she's actually met with an armed force of Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Led by a senior dame, Elpek and Mirbella. Fucking snapshot back into old patterns. She is right back to her Honored Matre sass. It is.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Much fun.

[Abu]

It's so good.

[Leo]

Oh, it's so good. And she kind of plays into this new role. She's going, oh, well, yeah, I was captured by them and I tricked those idiot witches into teaching me all of their powers. And I was like, an honored student of their leader. Can you believe it? And I brought back all of those skills as a gift and also knowledge of where their homeworld. Is. What an incredible value she's offering to them.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now it's a pretty good performance. You know, 8 out of 10 not winning any Oscars. But everyone believes her. They're like, yeah, yeah, she's good. Yeah. But one of the middle level, kind of try hard Honored Matres, always trying to get a promotion. So obnoxious, you know, raising their middle manager meeting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, I've got a thing. Just to piggyback on what they were saying. Great point, by the way. You know, that's right.

[Abu]

We all know this guy.

[Leo]

We all know this guy. And Mirbella does us all a favor by killing them with a kick to the neck. This is such a good. So basically they ask a question, they're like. And she's like, okay, here's my answer. Kicks them in the neck, kills them. Quote, she taught me admirably. Any other questions? End quote.

[Abu]

Amazing.

[Leo]

Spectacular. These two chapters that we're about to get into involve so much Mirabella, just aura farming. Just being the coolest character. I was not prepared for how much I, yeah. Enjoyed Mirbella. Like, I think Mirbella throughout the book I've kind of been like, ah, okay, sure. She's kind of one note at the beginning. She gets a little bit more complex as she starts wrestling with her feelings for Duncan. But I never really got excited about Mirbella chapters. I feel like if there was another book about Mirbella, I would be stoked because I just, I had so much fun.

[Abu]

I mean, gosh, it's a bit too early to get into seventh book discussion, but imagine a seventh book where it's a dual sort of narrative following Shiana's migration and Merbella's rule of the new sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think like Mirbella has the juice to really carry a narrative, you know, just as well as o' Draid did.

[Leo]

Even just a novella. Like I would kill for just like a. Just a 90 page story about her being great, you know. Now in the command tower, she joins Logno and the other folks. Logno has been re enthroned as the great honored matre. Now, not that she was necessarily dethroned, but you know, her surrender, we are your prisoners. Clearly that was a feint. Teg is wrapped like a holiday ham and she goes in the corner.

[Abu]

Oh my God.

[Leo]

Odrade is standing nearby. She's not in shackles or anything, but it's more a dismissive. You're not even worth binding, you're so fucking weak or whatever. And it seems like, yeah, this bloodless killing weapon that they brought back from the scattering was Used, they exhausted the final ammunition. This is what caused those bloodless casualties that TEG was noticing in the last episode. Maybe Honored Matre troop members using the weapons before their ambush was fully kind of enacted. Now Murbella's confrontation with Logno is a verbal assault.

[Abu]

Oh my God. I was screaming during all of this.

[Leo]

It's so good. And combined with her Bene Gesserit analysis, we see that she is absolutely fucking unstoppable. She delivers some bars that Kendrick Lamar would be proud of. This kind of 12 punch of diss tracks.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

That precipitates her victory over Logno. First quote, you consider yourself powerful and clever. One begets the other. Eh? What idiocy. You're a consummate liar and you lie to yourself. End quote. My God.

[Abu]

Get fucked.

[Leo]

Get fucked. Locked. Oh, holy shit. Okay. The whole room is like, oh, shit. And they all back up. They give space to this little moment. Then the killing blow quote, like the ones I know in other memory. You are headed for extinction. The problem is that you take so infernally long. Dying, inevitable, but, oh, the boredom. Meanwhile, you dare call yourself great Honored Matre. Everything about you is a cesspool. You have no style. Oh, my God.

[Abu]

Not the killing blow.

[Leo]

End quote. Damn. You have no style is like a top five mic drop in this entire book series by such a margin. Holy shit.

[Abu]

100% Holy shit.

[Leo]

Everything about you is a cesspool. You have no style.

[Abu]

Oh my God, what a takedown.

[Leo]

What are those broken sue stones on your arabesque? Tacky. You have no style. So good. But also, and this is the thing, right? It's beyond the biting words, beyond the cutting wit, the savagery. Mirbella is actually instructing them truthfully. Like, this is a performance for the benefit of everyone who is going to be alive in a few seconds. Not necessarily. Only for the person she's, you know, taking apart, right? She's prompting Logno to attack, but she's also demonstrating to the room, I am going to be someone that you will want to follow. Because some of what I'm saying rings true.

[Abu]

Right? Yeah, right, like you're lying. You're all lying to yourself. Like, nothing she's saying here is technically untrue. You know, like, right, I don't know about style. I'm no style expert, so I'll leave that up to interpretation. But, like, you are headed for extinction. You it. It's inevitable. And you are consummate liars. You lie to yourself. You think you're so powerful and clever. What idiocy like all of that is absolutely true. It's the wake up call, the Honored Mantra, if needed. This whole time.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I have to think, you know, we were joking last episode about, like, everything's a faint. Every other fucking room is just a prop room. Oh, here's Command Center 7B. But is it the real one? No, it's fake. I think every Honored Matre in the room right here understands. I think they all quietly feel that they're heading toward extinction. Now, Dhamma had the sort of wit to try to negotiate with Lucilla to kind of find a solution to this problem. And she was exceptional for an Honored Matre. But I think broadly, they're all kind of attuned to these truths. So if Mirbela just started lying and braggadociously saying whatever, I think it would have felt like, here's another person, just like Dama, just like Logno. But instead she's really cutting herself apart. She's going, I am someone who's going to tell you the truth and someone who will actually guide you. And that's also active in this scene.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

So Logno completely baited attacks. I love that fucking rebellion. Catches her kick like one would catch a leaf or some shit.

[Abu]

Just like, oh, my God.

[Leo]

Casual. Kills her immediately. And then in the same moment, she also dispatches Lognos, two aids, presumably also some pretty respectable top brass among the Honored Matre. These are no grunts. These are people high in the power structure. Presumably hard to kill people. She kills three people in like two heartbeats. It's insane. But this flurry of violence does have another casualty because it is in this moment, right? The three bodies are falling to the floor. Barbella turns and she sees. Oh, trade dead on the floor. Rip, rip. Duo Drade Darwee o' draid. The goat greatest of all time.

[Abu]

She's a goat.

[Leo]

So good. What an incredible character. Genuinely sad. Really genuinely sad. Even knowing this is coming on a reread. It's so sad. Such a character.

[Abu]

Easily a top three character in all of Dune ever.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so this hurts. Even though it felt inevitable, even though we all kind of saw this coming for most of the book, Odrade herself included. Doesn't mean it doesn't sting.

[Leo]

So true. And in fact, the one who kills her is Elpeck. It seems like maybe, oh, Jade moved to help Mirbella or get involved in some way, and that was the deciding moment. So Elpeck killed her.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

No. Mirbella whips out another original recipe. Her famous kick to the neck. Extra Cayenne pepper kills El Pack. Good riddance. Get fucked, Elpeck. How dare you kill the goat? How dare you kill Odrade, you piece of shit. Mirabella then kneels next to Odrade's body and takes Odrade's recent memories. Right now, when she stands, shouts at the room to get her some new drip, maybe some uncreased Jordans, she's like, yo, get me a fit. Everyone understands this is their new Great Honored Matre, right?

[Abu]

And none of that ugly shit that Lagna was wearing. Give me something good, y'.

[Advertiser]

All.

[Leo]

Let her dress like a fucking bumpkin. Put me in something that turns heads. All right?

[Abu]

That's right. That's right.

[Leo]

Listen up, Fives a tennis talking, yeah?

[Abu]

Have you seen these thigh muscles? I want a high slit, okay?

[Leo]

High slit boots. Knee high, yeah. So she is immediately accepted as effectively the new Great Honored Matre. This is how power is handed over in the Honored Matre. So she is rightfully the new Great Honored Matre. And the chapter ends with Tag released safely. She said, get him out of those. She Gawayer. He serves me now. I thought his reaction to all of this, like, so charming. The idea that, you know, there's, oh, Jade dead on the floor. Like. He's like, man, interesting times we are. Yeah. Jesus, man. Lot going on. Hummer. Bella. This is crazy. And Mirbela gives him his next task. Quote Dhar liked apples. Mirbella said, see to that end quote, of course, giving him instructions for the perfect burial for his mother, the recently deceased Reverend Mother Superior and one of our favorite characters in the series. Oh, what an insane chapter. And really, again, even though we saw it coming, still it stings.

[Abu]

What a chapter. Okay, let's wrap up today's reading because we have one more incredible chapter to get through. Chapter 45.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Merbella returns to Chapter House with her new squad. And she fully steps into her new role as both Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit and Great Honored Mantra of the Honored Madre.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

Now, there's a couple of immediate to do's that Mirbela needs to check in on. She has the Rabbi and his party go to the no ship where they will be safe. She checks in with Duncan immediately, which the Honored Matre found kind of funny. They were like, why is one man so important to you? And I found it interesting that Marbella had a thought where she was like, ugh, they're not so different from the Bene Gesserit. The concept of love is so foreign to these people. True yeah, that was a bit of a throwaway line, but I was like, damn. So on point.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But she goes and she checks in with Duncan, but Duncan is acting weird. He's like, rambling about something and he's distant and it seems like he has come to some sort of decision. He wants to create this mental mosaic. But what exactly that decision is, Mirbela does not know quite yet. Of course, by the end of that chapter, that decision will. Will become clear. Now, rather than wait for any sort of, like, official council meeting that elects her into the leadership position, Mirbella walks into A Dread's former office and just sits down in the Mother Superior's chair and immediately gets to work.

[Leo]

Balanda, where are you? Yo, get the fuck in here. Belanda. Waiting for you.

[Abu]

I found this incredibly powerful and for some reason I just, I got chills when I read the line that Mirbella sat down in the Mother Superior's chair in her red Honored Matre robes.

[Leo]

Mm. Yeah.

[Abu]

Just this physical image of these two sisterhoods coming together.

[Leo]

Yeah, great point.

[Abu]

That really got me. For some reason now, Belinda, to her credit, is a little bit tense, but obliging. It's clear that in her many discussions with Odrade and her many face offs against O'Drade, she saw this outcome as a possibility. It eventually became clear to her that this was something that O'Drade was aiming for. It was all part of A Dread's plans.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And so, as instructed, she rushes out of the room, she gets the Honored Matri Council and brings them into Mirbella's new office. Now, Mirbella's meeting with her Honored Matre Council is honestly, so funny, dude, so good. And she continues to play that, like, cruel, yet wise, great, honored mantra perfectly. You know, honestly, she's. She's running laps around these other Honored Matre. She boldly suggests to her former sisters a merger. We're going to buy Warner Bros. And go into $70 billion of debt. How does that sound?

[Leo]

They're like, I don't know if the FTC is going to allow that.

[Abu]

Shush, shush. We're going to do it. So she is suggesting a merger. She wants the Honored Matres and the Sisterhood to become one. Which of course was all part of A Drade's plan as well. But her sales pitch to the Honored Matre isn't, hey, look, we're going to get along. This is going to be great. How wonderful is this all going to be? No more fighting, no more war. We're going to hold hands and Spin around in circles and it's going to be wonderful.

[Leo]

Right, right, right.

[Abu]

No. She frames this decision in an egocentric way, in the way that Shino will land with the Honored Madre. She says, quote, compared to me, with what I acquired from them, the lot of you are miserable weaklings. And later, she continues and says, quote, you are children with no knowledge of what you might become. Would you return defenseless to face the ones of many faces? Would you become vegetables?

[Leo]

End quote. Dude, so good.

[Abu]

Again, like touching on their central fear. You know, the fear at the heart of the honored materi that has driven them this far. And while she gets a little bit of pushback from a particularly ambitious Honored Mantre named Angelica, ultimately her council agrees. They fold. The Honor Matres will start training under the Bene Gesserit because they recognize that Rella's got that Goku ultra instinct. And they kind of want that too. They want that juice.

[Leo]

I also, I just want to read this quick quote. I have a policy for unimportant things, such as insect infestations. Unimportant things call for policies for such of you as do not see the wisdom in my decision. I need no policy. Your kind I dispose of quickly. Dead before you know you've been injured. That is my response to the presence of filth. Is there any filth in this room? End quote.

[Abu]

And they're like, speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Leo]

And anyone forever held their peace.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It is savage again, like Merbella. The aura farming that she does in these two chapters is off the charts.

[Leo]

It's so good.

[Abu]

Absolutely amazing stuff. I myself am ready to follow Marbella's every command.

[Leo]

Yeah, same.

[Abu]

And if you're wondering about the how this merger will actually work and what the mechanics are, hang tight. That's going to be our takeaway today. So we're going to dive deeper into that a little bit later.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

For now, let's wrap up this chapter summary alongside what's happening externally. The like to do list. As the new head of both orders that Mirbella has to do, this chapter also has an internal struggle that's going on inside Mirbella. Merbella is having these conversations with Odrade and they're genuinely heartbreaking stuff. We see that while she's all like bluster and bravura on the outside, internally, Mirbella is grieving. Yeah, she is grieving the loss that comes with her new position. She is in position of power. She will have to make choices that are going to hurt her. She is going to have to let go of parts of her former past that meant a lot to her. Namely, a certain hot stud named Duncan motherfuckin Idaho.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Mirbella recognizes that her new role will cost her the love of Duncan Idaho and her relationship with him. She has this conversation with o', draid, and o' draid scolds her, you know, and questions her, poking and prodding Mirbella and challenging her assumptions and the melodramatic thoughts that Mirbella is having. Odrade continuing to be this mentor and teacher for Mirbella even after her death.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Ultimately, Odrade, inside other memory, o' Draid reinforces that conversation that Mirbella had with Duncan. This idea of, don't think. Do it to follow your instincts. She tells Mirbella that you have this authority over an organization bent on survival, the same authority that I once had. The Bene Gesserit will survive at any costs. And now it's up to you to take that mantle. And ultimately, it's also up to you to derive meaning from all of that. O' Draid says, quote, that's a decision you make for yourself. Family, and what binds it? What tickles life and happiness. End quote.

[Leo]

I loved that quote so much because I feel like it really frames some of what makes O'Drade such a powerful leader just in a sentence or two. Right. Like, what is the purpose of life, but to find that kind of joy. And if you can't find that joy, then just give yourself the baseline job of getting through life. Do the thing that you have to do. But if you can find the joy, find the art, find the music, find the. It's like there's something really beautiful about that.

[Abu]

Yeah. It speaks back to how important life is and how both Taraza and Odrade recognize that as heretics, how important love and life and living life is. And it's something that Mirbella should hold on to despite her new responsibilities. And in fact, it's up to her to find meaning in life.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What tickles life? What? What tickles happiness? Tickle me Elmo.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, let's wrap up this chapter. The chapter wraps up. Mirbella checks in once again with Belanda. They're going through a couple more to do list items. She's now the head of two orders. The to do list is never going to be done with. We get an update that Scytail is still aboard the no ship. He's still hidden. He's still a trump card that they can play if they need. The rabbi and his party are also on the no Ship safely. Shanna is, I guess, working in the great hold, studying those worms like she promised, quote, unquote.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And Duncan, like in his conversation earlier with Mirbella, is still refusing to leave the ship. He needs to finish building that mental mosaic, as he says. And here at the end of the chapter, Duncan's final decision also clicks into place for Marbella. She looks out at the ugly mass of the no ship sitting there, and the reality of it falls into place. Duncan and Shanna, they're going to escape. Duncan is going to leave her. She is going to permanently lose the love of her life.

[Leo]

So sad. And also, I feel, like, kind of slow. Basically, everyone who doesn't want to be on this planet's there anyway. I'm going to go have a cup of tea, right? Rebellious, like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Oh, oh, oh. They're going to fucking leave.

[Abu]

Yeah. All the puzzle pieces fall into place, but there it is, folks. Those are the penultimate three chapters of this book. We have a mere three chapters left to go before we complete this epic journey.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

What a great set of chapters, though.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This third act of the book is just fucking stellar. It's like, out of this world.

[Leo]

It's so good. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, with the chapter summaries out of the way, let's take a quick break. But as promised, folks, don't go anywhere because we have a takeaway coming up where we are going to be looking at Dario Dre's plans in this book and what this Bene Gesserit honored matre merger means for both of these sisterhoods. So that conversation coming up in just a minute. We'll see you soon. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason. With SUVs made to move with your rhythm, the versatile Equinox tackles your entire day. The spacious Traverse fits your crew and your whole weekend. And tracks bring style with value you can count on, all infused with tech that has your back. So your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet together. Let's drive.

[Advertiser]

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's talk about it. Two different sisterhoods. No, no, no. They've been combined. They've been merged. The merger went through. Couldn't be struck down by the FTC or whatever. We now have, perhaps a faraway view. We have A kind of, I don't know, full picture view of Odrade's plan. We, we kind of see this painting that she's been working on this whole time and we want to talk about it because, holy shit, this might be the whole point of the book. Like, this might. This might be right. And to start off, we just quickly want to get something out of the way because when you search, like, Darwee Odrade's death in Chapter House, you start to see online discussions around, was this her intention all along? Was she just kind of like, did she plan to die? Was it something that she was hoping to avoid, like, oh, might happen, but hopefully it won't, or was she expecting to get off the planet alive and this was like a tragedy? And we just want to be clear. We are very confident that Odrade knew that her death was, if not a certainty, a very real possibility.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

Recall these thoughts she had walking away from Convocation. Quote, Odrade thought about the places I will never go, the things I will never see, except, and as a reflection in the life of another. End quote. Ooh.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

In retrospect, that's pretty obvious, right? This is Odrade going, I'm going to die, maybe right away, maybe in time, but I'm very likely. I think this is on the heels of basically saying goodbye to Chapter House. She doesn't expect to be back, so what else is going to happen? We're pretty confident she knew she was very likely going to die. And actually as early as her conversations with Mirbella. Recall when Mirbella was pregnant on the training floor and they have this little talk. O' Draid thinks, quote, the Bene Gesserit must change its ways, and here is one who could guide us into change. End quote. Now, at the time, you think, oh, maybe just as inspiration or as an advisor. But with this new vision of Odrade's plan, it becomes more clear, even at that early stage, she was thinking about Merbella as Reverend Mother Superior.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Now, we can't know, of course, exactly what was in her head, but we're confident that Odrade knew going to Junction meant that she would very likely die and like us, spend her time with Logno, expecting the axe to drop or the. The foot to meet her neck or whatever. Yeah. Immediately following absorbing all of Odrade's recent memories, Mirbella stands and thinks in a way, that was my doing, Dar, and yours.

[Abu]

Yeah, right.

[Leo]

Odrade set those dominoes to fall. And even with oh Trade's recent memories in mind, Mirbela's looking down at the body going, yeah, that's what you planned. So we just wanted to get that out of the way quickly because, again, when these conversations happen, sometimes there is a little bit of people read this book quickly. They don't quite remember. We just want to make it clear. Our understanding as sort of Dune fanatics is this is at least something that she knew was very likely going on to Junction. Landing on Junction.

[Abu]

Yeah. And personally, I think odraid leapt into action potentially to achieve both things. Right. Two birds, one stone. Make sure that Mirbella survives. We don't need, like, a fluke foot kick hitting her in the wrong temple and Merbella dying.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And also to ensure that she herself dies so that the mantle can officially passed to Mirbella with no question. You know, imagine if Mirbella and o' Draid both came back to chapter House. There would suddenly be a whole succession battle happening. Who's actually in charge now.

[Leo]

Yeah. The conservatives would be like, we want to put someone else on the. You know, you're. You're too fanatical. Like, good job saving us, but we want someone else now. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[Abu]

And would the honored madre cohort even follow O' Draid if O'Drade came back and was like, we're merging now? You know, they'd be like, who the fuck are you to tell us that? Yeah, like, it has to be Merbella. Merbella is the only one for this merger. And so I think in these final moments, my read on it is that odrade intentionally is like, let me jump in here and just get killed and make sure all the puzzle pieces fall into place, like I need them to.

[Leo]

I think that's absolutely correct. I wasn't necessarily confident enough to lead with that, but that's also my thought. I'm like. I think for sure. She was like, let me just get myself out of the picture. And in a way that doesn't challenge Mirbella, doesn't, you know, just makes me look like a kind of foolish person that then the other Honored Matre will understand why Mirbella takes over. Right?

[Abu]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's all clearly necessary. So I think that's. That's my read on it. And that does seem like the read of the book. O' Draid has kind of been planning for this the whole time. Now, with the Odrade death out of the way, again, rip to a legendary character.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Let's actually talk about this merger and what it means and what shape it will take and actually, you know, I think merger is an interesting word. We keep using merger, but for me, something. The word that's more appropriate is subsume. Like, the sisterhood is going to, like, subsume the honored mantra into their fold.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

Because this final chapter From Today, Chapter 45, outlines what the shape of this plan will be. The Bene Gesserit, we're told, will pretend to be amicable, will pretend to love the honored madre, love and respect them, and they will act as teachers to their former enemies as the honored madres slowly acquire Bene Gesserit's skills, which, as we know, also means Bene Gesserit thinking and worldview, right? Mirabella is clearly like patient zero of this, right?

[Leo]

Patient Zero.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Just like Mirbella, the under Matres will start off seeing all of this with naivete, right? They'll be like, ooh, cool, new powers. I want that Ultra Instinct ability. Other memory seems dope. Give me that immunity to biological weapons. Like, that's the thing I need most, you know? They want all the perks. And they won't realize what they will sacrifice and have to change about themselves in order to earn those perks. Sacrifices that every sister has to make as they go through training, every acolyte does. So before they know it, they too will be trapped in the Bene Gesserit teachings, much like Mirbella has been. Quote, Honored Matres would be children in a candy store. Only gradually would the inevitable grow plain to them. Then they would be trapped. End quote. Once they realized they were getting roped into the Bene Gesserit, it would already be too late. You know, they would already be bought in.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And again, Rubella is speaking literally from firsthand experience here. She went through this exact process.

[Leo]

She was, you know, subject zero, of course, but also the, like, beta test. It's like, can this work? If we teach an honored Matre how to think like a Bene Gesserit, do they become Bene Gesserit? And Mirbella answered that question resoundingly. Yes. If you teach Honored Matres the kind of philosophy and worldview of the Bene Gesserit, they become Bene Gesserit. They are so similar that it just. You stop being able to even differentiate other than, of course, Mirbela's frightening speed and ability and reflexes, which, you know.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And, like, sexual knowledge and things like that.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say they almost become a bene gesserit 2.0, which has also been the goal for Taraza and O'. Draid for these last two books.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is we can't just keep operating as bene gesserit 1.0 with our old dogma, our old biases, our old plans to prop up prophets and control religions and pretend it's all gonna work out like that shit hasn't been working out, man. We need, like, a new way to operate that encompasses human emotions and life and love and what it. And Sea Child and all of these things we've suppressed for generations. And so Merbella, again, is. Is that first beta test of what a bene gesserit 2.0 looks like. Someone who's capable of loving someone like Duncan, but is also capable of making the hard Bene Gesserit decisions.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think this quote that you put in here in our script really wraps this up pretty succinctly and makes the ultimate goal clear. Quote, one day there would be no honored madres, only reverend mothers with improved reflexes and augmented knowledge of sexuality. End quote. Bene Gesserit 2.0.

[Leo]

That really makes it clear for us, Frank, after the first book, Frank is like, maybe I need to spell things out sometimes for people.

[Abu]

So it's a bold strategy. And looking back, if you look back at these last two books, and in particular at Chapter House, and what o' Draid has been scheming this whole time. What a gamble.

[Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're gonna put the pieces into place. We're gonna use Mirbella as a beta test, and we're gonna create the conditions to absorb our enemy

[Leo]

insane, wild plan.

[Abu]

You can understand why someone like Balanda or even Tamlain would hear a plan like that and be like, that's fucking banana cakes. We cannot pull that off.

[Leo]

Yeah. Banana cakes indeed. I mean, she has a lot of banana cakes ideas, but, dude, this is the most banana cake I've ever heard from a. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

So part of this takeaway is also like, tracing the beginning of this plan, because I think it is tempting now and it is very fun to reread this book and to start seeing the little moments where she goes, oh, my God, Belanda knows what I'm planning. I hope she doesn't say anything because it's too early and you go, holy shit. Oh, my God. Like, what? Like, it's fun to go back and to start drawing those, like, red yarn strings for each of these little data points. But we actually were looking back all the way to heretics, and there are through lines that go all the way back to Taraza's leadership, as you pointed out. Like, this this begins with Taraza. Right. And in particular, we think it begins with Taraza's insight, which is, no matter what comes crawling back from the Scattering, the Bene Gesserit's greatest existential threat is ultimately an internal one. Their own kind of desire for perfection and conservatism. You know, the sisterhood is so obsessed with control and dogma. We see that bureaucracy, right. Just making. Let's wait, wait, wait, before we do anything, let's come up with a 55 step plan. And then. And then if that doesn't, we'll have a 67 step plan, just in case they were backsliding actively into stagnation and doomed for extinction. Right. Unable to adapt to new challenges that the universe was presenting.

[Abu]

Right, exactly.

[Leo]

And central to Taraza's rule was this kind of controlled heresy. She kept people like Schwann, you, Bing, as well as people like Odrade. Right. Heretical, dangerous people in some ways. But she kept them close and gave them important tasks, kind of carefully managed before it becomes like a split faction entirely or some kind of big upheaval. Right. She was really kind of balancing on that knife's edge. How far can I push it while keeping things under control? And then you have the arrival of the Honored Matre, this moment in Bene Gesserit history that ends up acting as the diagnosis of some of their greatest weaknesses, the mirror of some of their greatest flaws and some of the ways in which they are already bound for extinction. But also the potential solution, a piece of the. Maybe that's what we've been missing, brought back to us from the Scattering.

[Abu]

Yeah. How interesting that the existential threat could very well also contain within it the seed of, like a rebirth.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Of a future of the thing that actually saves you. Incredibly fascinating stuff. And you know what? You know, it's clear that throughout this book, Frank painted the Honored Madre as this, like, representation of Bene Gesserit gone wrong. What happens when the shackles come off the Bene Gesserit? They go out into the Scattering, they face new dangers. They run from an enemy that nearly wipes them out. What do they become? And what they become is the repressed energies that the Bene Gesserit have kept clamped down for generations through training, exploding outward.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And a loss of their discipline, their dogma, their science, as Dhamma would put it. Right, right. It's the Bene Gesserit without science and all of their just uncontrolled instincts bursting out. The violence, the rage. And yes, the Honored Matre are Enjoying arts, music. They love their beans and garlic, as we know. They love it to an extent that is uncontrolled, to an extent that is dangerous. This lack of moderation is dangerous. To live without politics and science in this capacity to self diagnose and self reflect, that is dangerous. They're headed for extinction, as Merbello warned them. So looking at these two books, Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune, what began as like Taraza's careful, controlled experiments in injecting just a little. Just a hint of heresy there. A hint of heresy here.

[Leo]

Yeah. As a treat, you know.

[Abu]

Right. Just a little treat, you know, maybe a little. Maybe we put some artwork up, you know, I'm gonna put Van Gogh up in my office. How much harm could that do?

[Leo]

Yeah. And then when people get, you know, it's just a little. It's just a little. Yeah, she's a little naughty. It's fun.

[Abu]

Yeah, Right. Tarazah begins that. She takes the baby steps. And the arc of that journey is completed fully by Odrade, who deliberately uses the honored Matres as the solution to creating the Bene Gesserit 2.0 as a way for the Bene Gesserit to be reshaped and rebirthed and let go of their previous dogma, the thing that's been holding them back. And like we've been saying during this entire takeaway, Murbella is patient zero. She is the beta test of that theory. That to be clear, Odrade wasn't sure ever. Sure would actually work.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

That's why it was always teetering on the edge of destruction. We were always walking that tightrope with the axe wielder behind us. If any of the pieces of this very complex plan and theory to subseume the Haunted Matre went wrong, it was fucking game over. The 100 matre were just going to wipe us out, right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But it seemingly all went right. Or it went as right as it could have, given the circumstances. Mirbella is a bene gesserit 2.0. She is in charge of both sisterhoods now equally. And she is able to take the Bene Gesserit into a new future. One in which new sisters carry two worldviews and philosophies. They carry that the violence, the sexuality, the explosive love of humanity and art and music and beans. Beyond all of that, contained within the training and moderation and discipline and science of the Bene Gesserit. That is the ultimate final form of these two sisterhoods. The best of both. Without the Weaknesses of each.

[Leo]

Yeah. And adaptive, finally. Like truly adaptive for the long run. You know, they've kind of stepped onto their own Golden Path. And. Yeah, it's so good. I mean, just to wrap up. Right. Like, this final act of Frank's final book is the culmination of an idea that's been building since the earliest pages of Heretics. The argument that virulent ungoverned human energy, and on the other side of the coin, discipline conserving human wisdom are opposites, but need to be balanced in complement to one another for kind of a. I don't know, to. To truly avoid stagnation or self destruction. Right, yeah.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And we don't think necessarily that Teraza, or even necessarily Ohrade, for that matter, planned this ending specifically. No more than like leto2 planned every brick of the Golden Path. It's more like very true Leto ii and then Taraza and now Odrade cultivated the conditions for this to happen and kind of set up the forces that would then result in the marriage of these kind of primordial forces. The benefits of human culture and the reminder of what it is to live to eat beans and garlic. Ooh. You know.

[Abu]

Yes, exactly.

[Leo]

All of that. So really, we get to humanity's survival, we get to the Golden Path, but it required the Bene Gesserit to become something they'd not recognize. Bene Gesserit 2.0, this unthinkable merger of witches and whores to turn a new page into this kind of unknown tomorrow. Right. The excitement that Leto yearned for, having given up the mysteries of tomorrow. And we thought it was appropriate to end this takeaway on Verbella, saying, quote, this is an opening chapter, end quote. Of course, no one tell her that this is actually close to the end of the book. She's got that way wrong. My God, we're really wrapping up here.

[Abu]

Mirbella.

[Leo]

This is like chapter 43.

[Abu]

Yeah, no, I think that's a beautiful quote to end on, because it is. This is the opening of a new chapter for the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

So that's our takeaway. Only that. Only the survival of humanity and Frank's big themes that he's been playing with for six books.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right.

[Leo]

We're going to take one final break, but don't go anywhere, because when we're back, we've got a couple of spice morsels for you. And then we're going to say goodbye before our final episode of this book club. It's insane. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back in just a minute.

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. It's lunchtime over here. While we're recording, we're both hungry and we hope you are too. Dear listener, let's wrap up today's episode by chomping down on some spice morsels. And let's begin with Gordian knots. In our reading today, as Mirbella steps into her new role and faces down all of these new responsibilities she now has, we get this passage quote, she gave her attention then to what must be done. These deaths had created an enormous debt. Rubella took a deep breath. This was another Gordian knot. End quote. Now, Gordian knot is, I'm sure, a phrase that many of us have heard. It's a fairly common phrase, but we still wanted to dig down into its implementation here in the book and why Frank chose to use this particular phrase and perhaps how it connects to the history of it all. So the basic usage of the term is pretty straightforward. A Gordian knot refers to an impossibly complex problem that is essentially the definition.

[Leo]

Boom, done. Yeah.

[Abu]

The history of the phrase is super fun, though. So back in the day, if you can think back, everybody, to 333bc, if we all remember that year, I was

[Leo]

negative 2,000 years old. Okay?

[Abu]

Exactly, exactly. Hold that image, hold that image. This guy named Alexander the Great, okay, great title. He was progressing through Gordium, which is the capital city of Phrygia.

[Leo]

Phrygia, I think. Phrygia, Phrygia.

[Abu]

Phrygia.

[Leo]

Maybe Phrygia sounds right.

[Abu]

And as the story goes, Alexander the Great was shown the chariot of this city's founder, which was tied to a pole with an incredibly complicated knot. You can see where this is going. City of Gordium. Gordian knot. The Encyclopedia Britannica provides this explanation of the story. Quote, according to tradition, this knot was to be untied only by the future conqueror of Asia. In the popular account, probably invented as appropriate to an impetus warrior, Alexander sliced through the knot with his sword. But in earlier versions, he found the ends either by cutting into the knot or by drawing out the pole. The Phrase cutting the Gordian knot has thus come to denote a bold solution to a complicated problem. End quote.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

I love that. Love an old tradition. Love a retelling of a story. Part of me kind of thinks maybe it was a bit simpler and Alexander was like, I don't have fucking time for this. And I have a sharp knife, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. That's why he's great.

[Abu]

Let me just cut. Let me just take this chariot. It's a cool chariot. I want it. Fuck this rope.

[Leo]

Y' all are waiting for someone to untie. Boring chariot.

[Abu]

Future conqueror of Asia. All that. Love it. Cool. So, bringing this all back to Dune. The use of this phrase feels appropriate for a couple of reasons. Obviously, on the surface level, the very definition applies to Mirbella's current situation. She is facing impossible problems that don't have easy solutions. She has to unravel the knot of guiding both the Honored Madre and the Bene Gessert sisterhood into an unknown future. Certainly a Gordian knot. In addition to that, though, the task ahead of Mirbella is like a knot in the sense that it's too complex to unravel one thread at a time, right? Like the brutality of the Honored Matre and the bad blood between these two orders. This isn't going to be repaired through typical playbook Bene Gesserit thinking. Right. Through a gradual process, Mirbella will have to take bold actions. Perhaps she, too, like Alexander, will have to unsheathe her knife and just cut that knot open. And in fact, we see her already doing some of that in chapter 45 today. Mirbella is decisive. She's bold. She talks down to the Honored Madre Council to get them to bend to her will. And all throughout that, Odrade's wisdom internally is guiding her, leading her to take charge of the situation. Imagine someone like Belinda in this position, faced with a Gordian knot. She'd be sitting there trying to undo this fucking knot thread by thread, for the rest of her life.

[Leo]

I've got it. I've got it. It's just.

[Abu]

I've got it. I've got it. According to archives, if I loop this up and down and then Bunny ears, it's not.

[Leo]

Okay. Undo the bunny backwards. Bunny ears. Which way does the bunny go? Oh, God.

[Abu]

Right. That's not the solution we need here. And Mirbella is out here, sword in hand, ready to cut through any knot that she faces. And that's exactly what both the Honored Matre and the Sisterhood need as they hurdle forward into a Bold new and scary future.

[Leo]

Oh, so cool. Yeah. I enjoyed learning a little bit more about Gordian knots, but also just how many levels all of this works, right? Like the cutting of the. It's just so good. Oh, I love it. I also thought because in the story of the Gory Knot, there's like a. An oracle said that whoever will untie this knot rules all of Asia, which feels very like Kwisat's Haderach. Like, that feels like. Oh, the prophesied one as it was written. You know, Lisa. Daim. Like it. It all felt very. In the fabric of Dune, which is very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, our next morsel, our final morsel today, are pyramids and dao. In today's reading, Mirbella has an interesting exchange with her other memory. Oh, Drade. That left us with lingering questions we wanted to take a few minutes to explore. It's kind of like a mini takeaway without really being a mini takeaway. Discussing Mirbella's temptation to retreat to sequences. The conversation picks up and. Abu, do me a favor. I want you to be my. Oh, trade. Okay, I'm ready. And then you're the first line.

[Abu]

Oh, I'm the first one.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

Thinking of it as cause and effect beguiles you away from totality.

[Leo]

Dao.

[Abu]

Simpler. You are here.

[Leo]

But. But other memory goes back and back

[Abu]

and imagine it's pyramids interlocked.

[Leo]

Those are just words, end quote. That was. I. I feel bad about my performance as Mirbella, but that's the audio drama.

[Abu]

I could have done better justice.

[Leo]

Yeah, we'll do it better when we do the full book. Point is, Mirbela mentions dao. Right. Daoism. And, yeah, o' Draid brings up pyramids. These interlocked pyramids. And while it's true that Frank dips his little toesies into daoism time to time, we were interested by this combined imagery with pyramids. I was like, well, I don't actually know that much about Taoism. So is this like a Taoist symbol? Does it have more meaning? Let's look into it. Right, right. So, very briefly, daoism. It's a Chinese philosophy. It's a religion centered on the dao. The way this is spelled, by the way, tao. So if you've ever said tao, I'm pretty sure it's a dao. But I. I looked up a couple of YouTube videos. That's where I get my knowledge from the undivided flow underlying all reality, which cannot be grasped through analysis or language, but must be experienced. Honestly, kind of My shit. That's so sick. I'm super into it. I'm going to learn more about Daoism. I think I'm going to fucking vibe with it. Anyway, point is, one of Dao's core principles is Wu Wei, which is kind of translated as like, non effort or non doing or effortless non striving, which, according to theschooloflife.com is the idea of striving to make our behavior as spontaneous and inevitable as certain natural processes and to ensure that we are swimming with rather than against currents. End quote. I really liked that explanation, by the way, because, again, I felt like it used imagery that we've talked about with Odrade and Shiraza and rivers and water and this idea of what is spontaneity and finding the joy in life. Anyway, so when Mirbella is fixating on the chain of her experiences, her other memory, her why, what made her become a Reverend Mother? Odrade's advice is identifying the trap. Treating this continuous, unified Taoist reality as a narrative progression pulls you away from the reality of living in the present. You're getting too fixated on the past and what kind of led up to now. Right. And genuinely, Mirbela demonstrates how far she's come by giving that mindset its name. Asking. So you're talking about Dao. Shows her intuition, shows her knowledge, shows her learning. She recognizes that o' Draid is gesturing at something like Taoism. But then o' Draid says, imagine its pyramids interlocked. End quote. And at least based on our research, this image of interlocking pyramids doesn't relate directly to Taoism. This seems to be kind of a new thrust, a new idea from. Oh, and we think that this is kind of a new metaphor as a way of reframing other memory, the lineage of Reverend Mothers, not as this kind of linear progression. Right. I think of, like, Avatar, the last Airbender, when he has his, like, avatar mode. He sees this, like, literally line of people standing off to his right.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Rather than thinking of it as a linear succession, thinking of other memory instead as a web of interlocking spatial relationships, all immediately present now. And I think this is also important because when we talk about the threat of abomination, it's not some distant ancestor way down the chain super far from you. It's, they're here, they're now. The threat is here. The threat is now. You know, so this idea, reframing it as not a sequence or a linear thing, I think is really cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now wrapping up the two ideas, right? Daoism and these interlocked pyramids. They seem like two elements of the lesson that Odrade's other Memory is attempting to impart on Rubella, while Dao addresses how to perceive, that is don't worry about analysis and trying to get too much in your words and your language and all of these tools we've given you. In fact, follow Duncan's advice. Don't think, do, just take action, do it. Mirbella on the other hand, the pyramids address a way to picture other memories structurally, to get away from this idea of linear reality, to get away from this idea of sequence and a linear progression. Instead, it's more like an interlocked web. And I'll admit, although all of this is very cool, I was hoping that pyramids were like some huge thing in Taoism. But listen, still super enjoyed the idea that Odrade is even in other memory spitting bars. And perhaps now after this exploration of Taoism and the pyramid metaphor, maybe this lesson from Other Memory former Bella is a little bit easier for you to parse. Dear listener.

[Abu]

That's right. Love these spice morsels and the history lessons that we get.

[Leo]

Yeah, we learn so much.

[Abu]

I hope our listeners enjoy them too. It's always fun to dig into that.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

All right folks. Wow, that does it for the penultimate episode of the Chapter House Dune Book Club series. We have one more reading assignment to give you. My goodness, this is the easiest one to assign. Finish the book, read the rest of the book, the final three chapters. Folks, we're finishing it up next episode.

[Leo]

Say it ain't so. I love

[Abu]

is so. It is an inevitability. Some might say. DAR has been planning for this for six books now.

[Leo]

That's true.

[Abu]

So make sure you've completed the reading, folks. We will be wrapping up the book in the next episode.

[Leo]

But before we let you go today, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. And of course the two best ways to support us is one, to become a patron ad free episodes, some bonus materials. Additionally you get some looks at other projects we've got cooking in the oven and of course the other ways to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. Give them a look.

[Abu]

Also, of course, we love to hear from you. Now is the time to reach out folks, as we near the end of this book and as we prepare for our upcoming Q and A about the book, send us an email. Gom Jabbar PodcastMail.com is the best place to get in touch. Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us your own observations and theories about this book and the wider Dune canon. Of course, don't forget, we do charge a pet tax if you have a cute family member. Include a photo in your email. We love to see all your cute little critters, truly. So again, that email is gomjabarpodcastmail.com get your emails in so that we can include them in the upcoming Q and A.

[Leo]

How quickly. Now that chapter house is covered in Honored Matre, do you think they have to update the lunch menu?

[Abu]

I think the Honored Matre are going to be particularly concerned about the lunch menu. That's going to be like one of the biggest overhauls that Merbella is going to have to oversee. Yeah, and quite possibly the biggest thing that will cause a rift.

[Leo]

Blonde is like, it's going to be a bloody merger. And then it's like, really? Just at the fucking lunch line. It's just on her matre complaining about the quality of the meatloaf. Benny just were like, we think it tastes fine. And they're like, you have no taste.

[Abu]

Yes. Fights will break out in that cafeteria for sure. The food fights are going to be epic.

[Leo]

The hyper fast reflexes.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Mahdib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Of course, be sure to check out the other shows on the Lard Party podcast network on LordParty.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path. Stitch fix. Stop shopping. Get styled. Not today, sweatpants. Somebody's wearing jeans that fit.

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[Leo]

No photos please. I'm just a regular dad who happens

[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

Hey, we can all see you two way mirrors. Just share your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch fix. Get started [e-mail] I want to hug you. I'm going to hug you. I'm coming. I'm coming in for a hug.