Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 16)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 16) — July 24, 2026

Hosts: Abu & Leo | Lore Party Media

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Episode Overview

In this milestone episode, Abu and Leo reach the end of their years-long journey through Frank Herbert's original six Dune novels, capping off the "Book Club" series with an in-depth analysis of the final three chapters of Chapterhouse: Dune. The episode serves as both a breakdown of the novel's suspenseful conclusion and a personal reflection on the legacy of the Dune saga, the enigmatic final chapter, and the hosts' own transformative experience making the podcast.

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Episode Structure

• Chapter Summaries: Final three chapters of Chapterhouse: Dune reviewed in detail
• Deep Dive Takeaway: Unpacking the mysteries of Daniel and Marty, the saga's cryptic parting figures
• Personal Closing Reflections: Hosts share feelings and thoughts after six years of analysis
• Call to Action: Invitation to submit questions for the upcoming live mailbag episode

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Key Discussion Points & Notable Moments

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1. Recap of the Final Chapters ([06:33]–[34:38])

Chapter 46: The Escape

• Duncan & Shiana stage a convincing (and Oscar-worthy) performance to deceive the Bene Gesserit monitoring them, using “simulation” on the no-ship's security feeds.
• The plan is to help those who objected to Odrade’s leadership (and new Mother Superior Murbella) escape, recognizing Shiana’s potential as a new leader.
• Other notable escapees: Scytale, the Rabbi and his people, captive Futars, and Teg's child, tag-named “T.”
• Duncan is offered the choice to stay or go. He realizes staying is not an option—his connection with Murbella is irreparably changed.
  • Quote: “He's so dead set on this course. ...the only way he's going to move on is to leave. If he stays, it's going to be more painful for both of them.” —Abu ([11:15])
  • Gut-punch emotional moments regarding Duncan and Murbella’s broken relationship.
• The escape is quick—Frank spends only a few lines on the actual event.
  • Quote: “I love that the actual ship taking off and going to hold space is like a two sentence paragraph. Frank so unconcerned with that moment.” —Abu ([13:18])
• Duncan purges the ship’s star maps and data to outwit the pursuing “elderly couple,” Marty and Daniel, making the ship “unidentifiable in an unidentifiable universe.”
  • Quote: “We are an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe. Isn't that what we wanted?” —Duncan via Leo ([16:56])

Chapter 47: The Aftermath

• Murbella realizes Duncan's escape—just too late to stop him—causing visible distress she must suppress as new Mother Superior.
• She turns to Odrade in Other Memory for comfort and guidance.
  • Memorable quote: “Some waves throw you Murbella, but you get back up and you go on with it. Seven times down, eight times up, you can balance on strange surfaces.” —Odrade in Other Memory ([21:17])
• Personal, emotional responses discussed; hosts share their own “breakup meals.”
• Signs that merging Honored Matres and Bene Gesserit will be bumpy ("segregated dinner times"), small but revealing integration challenges.
• Shiana’s art heist: she stole the Van Gogh painting on her way out.
  • Murbella’s reaction: “Why does that hurt?” ([24:05])—highlighting the loneliness and subtle betrayal.
• Odrade in Other Memory articulates a kind of thematic handoff:
  • “Muad'dib to tyrant, to honored Matres, to us to Shiana, to what? Can't you see it? ...No healing power in the sweet.” ([27:45])
  • Closing lines tease a hard but necessary future—“Some will choke on that medicine, but the survivors may create interesting patterns.”

Chapter 48: Marty & Daniel — The Enigma

• An idyllic garden scene belies a profound mystery: the elderly couple, Marty and Daniel, discuss the escape.
• They confirm themselves as independent face dancers, now free from Tleilaxu control due to absorbing countless personas.
• They discuss the no-ship's intriguing cargo—including Ghola technology (Scytale) and potential to resurrect figures from the past.
• Final exchange:
  • Marty: “Did you let them go?”
  • Daniel: “Didn't let them go. He's welcome to them.” ([33:29])
• The saga closes on a note of cosmic ambiguity and open possibility.

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2. Deep Dive Takeaway: Who Are Daniel & Marty? ([35:36]–[69:14])

Certainties:

• They're independent face dancers, no longer under Tleilaxu control.
• Their powers and agency are near-godlike (“net” imagery suggests cosmic manipulation).

Major Theories Discussed:

1. The “Ones of Many Faces” Theory

   • Daniel and Marty are the “great enemy” from the scattering; perhaps even creators of the Futars and existential threat that chased the Honored Matres back.

2. Meta Theory: Frank & Beverly Herbert as Daniel & Marty

   • The couple represent the authors themselves, watching over and finally releasing their creations into an unknown future.
   • Quote: “This whole God conversation also works when you think of this as mere representations of Frank and Beverly, because... what are authors but gods of their creations?” —Abu ([55:40])

3. The “Brian Herbert/KJA AI Theory”

   • Not favored by the hosts, who point out it is grounded only in later, non-Frank works.

Interpretive Moments & Quotes:

• The hosts analyze ambiguous statements:
  • “Neither are we [gods].” ([53:31])
  • “I was going to say, what did you expect? God himself with a flowing beard.” ([55:38])
• The net imagery and manipulation of fate:
  • “...that net imagery is very intentional. ...we’re catching you in our trap.” —Abu ([44:41])
• Daniel and Marty’s ambiguous violence toward the Tleilaxu (“stomping down Masters”) and their sense of regret.
  • Quote: “I don't like treating Masters that way, and you know it. If it weren't for them...” —Daniel ([49:53])

Hosts’ Final Takeaways:

• Abu: Most drawn to the meta narrative—a bittersweet authorial farewell, characters outgrowing their creators and journeying into the unknown.
  • “I think the other big feeling that's coming up for me is pride... we did just that.” ([77:21])
  • “This final chapter feels like Frank Herbert in some sense saying goodbye...” ([57:13])
• Leo: Embraces both the meta and in-universe interpretations, leaning toward Duncan Idaho as the Golden Path’s unforeseen champion, equipped to subvert the “net.”
  • “Duncan Idaho was, if not the most important part of Leto’s Golden Path, a very important part... The pilot that evades the net...” ([65:34])
  • On Duncan’s unpredictability: “He is the guy who does the unexpected.” ([67:12])
• Both hosts agree the ending is appropriate: “You end the book in this whiplash quick way, and you're left with all of these questions. And isn't that a great place to be in as just like a person? You're like, inquisitive. It's so sick. It's great.” —Leo ([64:53])

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3. Personal Reflections & Emotional Closure ([70:09]–[85:45])

• Making the show is a journey of transformation for both hosts: “Gom Jabbar has changed my life.” —Abu ([71:24])
• Deep pride in sparking community, in-depth discussion, and making the Dune saga more accessible.
• Both confess their initial difficulty with Chapterhouse and Heretics, but their appreciation grew through collaborative analysis.
• Gratitude expressed for listeners, supporters, and each other.
  • “The quality of stuff we managed to make together is so far beyond what I'm capable of that it's better than the sum of its parts...” —Leo ([83:39])
• Excitement for future projects: Dune adaptation coverage, new book dive (Dune Elixir), unpopular sequels, etc.

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4. Community & What’s Next ([87:33]–end)

• Live YouTube mailbag episode planned; listeners urged to send theories and questions (especially about Marty & Daniel).
• Patron and merch support appreciated (“keeps the no-ship flying”).
• Fun call for fans to send “no context” emails (favorite comfort food, Olive Garden breadstick count, Reverend Mother names).

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• “[Odrade:] Some waves throw you Murbella, but you get back up and you go on with it. Seven times down, eight times up, you can balance on strange surfaces.” ([21:17])
• “[Duncan:] We are an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe. Isn't that what we wanted?” ([16:56])
• “What a journey. From the earliest days of the boy waking up to meet Mohiam for his test. What's in the box? Pain... We did all Heretics, man. What a fucking journey.” —Leo ([34:05])
• “Neither are we [gods].” —Daniel ([53:31])
• “We'll do it. We'll do it next time [eat breadsticks together].” —Leo ([91:23])
• “There is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic.” —Abu ([91:25])

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Flow & Tone

• Warm, playful banter laced with genuine emotion and personal vulnerability.
• Deeply analytical, irreverent, and accessible—even when tackling Dune’s difficult philosophical ambiguities.
• Self-aware meta-commentary throughout; hosts express appreciation for “embracing the unknown” both in Dune and in life.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

Even without hearing this episode, listeners will know:

• The Chapterhouse: Dune finale is a masterclass in ambiguous storytelling, leaving fate, legacy, and narrative control in the hands of its characters—and, metaphorically, its readers.
• Abu and Leo thoroughly dissect not just plot details, but the thematic and meta-literary implications of Frank Herbert’s last words.
• The episode is both a celebration of the saga and a turning point for the podcast community, with the door left open for reflection, theory, and new adventures.

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For More:
Send your theories about Daniel and Marty (or anything else Dune) to [e-mail]. Join the next live mailbag session, and stay tuned for more explorations—because whoever controls the podcast, controls the universe.

Transcript

[Leo]

You deliberately let the listeners get away. Abu.

[Abu]

No, no, Leo. It was not deliberate. They surprised me.

[Leo]

Uh huh.

[Abu]

I knew they listened to us, but I didn't suspect they were tired of Dune.

[Leo]

Who would. That sounds impossible. And I had such a nice deep dive topic picked out for them. Oh, one of the best. A real test of their attention spans.

[Abu]

Look, Leo. No. You moan about it. They're aware we can't touch them now. Probably outside enjoying the weather, touching grass or some. Instead of listening to us.

[Leo]

Boo. Hiss. Boo. Boring. Why are they doing that? Come back. Talk about.

[Abu]

Dude, stop living your lives and put your headphones back on.

[Leo]

Terrible decision. That's where allergies are. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. Oh, my name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are finishing Chapter House Dune, our book club series.

[Abu]

Not me. Already getting teary eyed.

[Leo]

What the fuck? Immediately. Where are my tissues? That's crazy. Wow. Yeah. A lot to say. First of all, what a crazy end to the book. But. Okay, wait, wait. Before. Jesus, before we get into it, I want to talk about it so bad. Have I done this before? I can't tell. Okay, before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping. Spoiler warning. Dear listener, we are not going to spoil anything beyond what we're talking about today, which is all of Frank's books.

[Abu]

All six of Frank's books at this point.

[Leo]

Yeah. So if you are good to listen today, you've read all the books. I think that earns you a gold star. Maybe. I don't know. That's cool. Good job. Congrats.

[Abu]

That's right. You've earned that gold star, folks. You've been on this journey with us to the very end.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, of course, up top, we have to shout out our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, without whom we truly could not have completed this journey.

[Leo]

Very true.

[Abu]

Daniel Dion. Seth Redding.

[Leo]

Greer.

[Abu]

Brad Hutchins. Kevin Mahanra. Roger. Young folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

When Leo and I retire to our garden.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And trim our rose bushes.

[Leo]

Yeah. Black roses.

[Abu]

We want all five of you there with us.

[Leo]

Cottages adjacent. Hours. Windows always open. No curtains.

[Abu]

Welcome to the commune. The Gom Jabbar commune.

[Leo]

Oh, gosh. The Gom Ja Bamyun. That's what it's going to be.

[Abu]

Called you5 will get the very first invitations. But of course, this will be an open community, and all of our patrons at every level will be invited onto the commune on a rolling basis. You know, we got to figure out how to do resource sharing, and there's some logistics to figure out, but we'll cross that bridge when we get all of that. Is to say we appreciate all of you. Our gratitude is endless. To all of our patrons at every level who have always helped make this show possible week in and week out.

[Leo]

It's been a long time, and we could not have done it without any of you. So thank you. And hey, listen, as we record this and as this episode will hit the airwaves, new movies coming out, Dune's going to be on people's tongues once again. Another great way to support us is just to tell a friend about us. We really appreciate anyone who's recommended this show to someone else. That's very helpful as well.

[Abu]

That's right. When you're touching tongues with your lovers, just mention Dune.

[Leo]

You know, just Dune, by the way. Anyway, back to it. Yeah. Mid makeout sesh, really the time to bring up your favorite sci fi series.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

All right, folks. With housekeeping out of the way.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

My goodness. Here's the game plan for today's episode. Saying this for what might be the last time you all know the game plan for a book club episode. We will begin with a summary of today's assigned chapters. The final three chapters of chapter House. Dune.

[Leo]

Insane. Yeah.

[Abu]

Then we will dive into a takeaway later in the episode. And normally we would end on spice morsels, which we've done for years, but considering this is the very last episode of our book club series, today we're gonna get introspective. We're gonna wrap up today with some closing thoughts and some personal feelings as we look back on the past five years of covering Frank's books.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So all of that and more is coming up after a quick break. This is it, folks. We're in the home stretch. Stick around. We'll be back in a minute.

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[Leo]

welcome back everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break and I hope you're ready for our last chapter. Summaries of Frank Herbert's books. That's crazy to say. Okay, our first of the last chapters today is chapter 46 and we are with Duncan and Shiana as they put on a truly Oscar worthy performance for the ever present Big Brother Bene Gesserit. Calm eyes. This is Big Brother. Big Sister. What's that fucking UK like reality show where they I think wasn't called Big Brother, where they have like the cameras on voices.

[Abu]

A show called Big Brother?

[Leo]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's like that. But Benny Jeserit are the producers and they are curious. So Duncan, Shiana, they are putting on their performance because it is time to escape chapter House. And the plan is pretty simple. Shiana is going to gather those who objected to Odrade's plan, right? People with mixed feelings about this new Merbella as Reverend Mother Superior and who also recognize Shiana's kind of innate power to lead and to be the sort of focal point of a new order. Yeah, they recognize the missionaria protectiva potential of Shiana and they're ready to jump ship. So they find them, they gather them, those Bene Gesserit. Meanwhile, let us not forget Scytale the Rabbi and his people, the captive Futars and Tag child T. They're all on the fucking ship as well, let's not forget. Yeah, they're also there. Crazy. I love the throwaway line. They'll just have to trust us, I guess. It's like, yeah, we are kidnapping all of them as it turns out. Do they one off.

[Abu]

Incredible.

[Leo]

Too bad. Now the various booby traps on the ship, the mines have been disabled and once human elements are taken care of, all they have to do is hit that big red let's get the fuck out of here button. So the next morning Duncan wakes up and he's called to the guard room for a chat with Shiana and their kind of gathered mini scattering of Bene Gesserit, including Garami, one of the Reverend Mother who had protested during the convocation. And I loved this little detail. I feel like it's so out of nowhere in some ways, but in an Ocean's Eleven style move. Right. All of the comma eyes on this guard room are showing a simulation of like all of the Bene Gesserit, like, eating Ritz crackers. They're eating a snack. They're like chatting, asking Duncan questions about weapons. What does that one do? Oh, my God. Yeah, it's got a big sword. That's cool. How long have you used it before, you know, and somehow Balanda and all the archivists are going to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sick. Cool. There they are just quizzing him on weapons. But when Duncan brings up the implausibility of this being accepted, they point out we have friends in the archives, people who are going to look the other way and buy us some time, basically. Nevertheless, Duncan's been asked to be here because they have a surprising question for him. Yo, Duncan. Kind of the guy who's getting us out of here. The driver of the fucking car. Do you want to stay? Do you want us to leave you behind? Would you prefer to stay with Merbella on Chapter House? And Duncan hadn't even considered it. Wow, I thought that was so interesting. You know, Duncan understands how far out of reach Mirbella is already for him.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So for him it's kind of a no brainer. But it is interesting that he hadn't even considered that they would ask him.

[Abu]

Right. He's so dead set on this course. And to your point, I think he even understands more than Merbella totally that their relationship, as it was, is over now. You know, like Mirbella is keeping herself busy with work and maybe not facing the facts quite yet. But Duncan doesn't have a whole lot of work left to do anymore. Right. And so he can face those facts pretty directly. And I agree. It's interesting that he didn't even consider staying. It seems to me like this is Duncan understanding through maybe an act of grief that he needs to leave.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That the only way he's going to move on is to leave. If he stays, it's going to be more painful for both of them.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. I also think this is. This is something that has been dawning on Duncan for like 15 chapters now. Like, we have been watching Duncan go through the process of losing Mirabella. Right. The moments when she started to look like a reverend mother and he already felt that kind of pain. And she's going back before she even awoke as a reverend mother, going, oh, I can't wait to have their fucking secrets. And I'm going to know everything and everything. And Duncan, already in that early stage of mourning Merbella, has only recently gotten to anywhere close to where he was at that time. So for sure they're in different places. I found it so heartbreaking the fact that he's like, when can I see you? And she's like, I'm busy. Maybe in a few days. And that's like the day before he leaves. Oh, fucking gut punch. Are you kidding me? Yeah, devastating. Oh, my God. To be Murbella insane. But Duncan, having not even considered staying, doesn't really entertain the idea and in fact informs the people giving him the option. Like, you know, that's like super stupid, right? And they're like, yeah, fair. That is pretty stupid. My bad. My bad dog. But he's like, yeah, I'm gonna join you. And he doesn't hide how sad that makes him, how truly torn up he is losing Rebella. So moments later, I also found this to be crazy pacing. Duncan is like, all right, anyway, I'm gonna walk over here. Sits down at the console, punch in some commands. Boom. Ship takes off. There's a shaking, right? Gets off planet. The massive no ship boom is in fold space. They're gone, they're out of there.

[Abu]

Insane.

[Leo]

Insane.

[Abu]

I love that the actual ship taking off and going to hold space is like a two sentence paragraph. Frank so unconcerned with that moment.

[Leo]

Yeah, what the fuck? I mean, we get it in two chapters, right? Because we get it in the next chapter as well. But the reality of the fact that they're fucking gone. All of these characters are just not on Chapter House anymore. Are you kidding me? I think there's something really profound about that. You know, when I moved to France, there is a feeling of incongruity between getting on an airplane. Like, I have a hundred times to go to Europe a few, you know, and getting on a plane to move to Europe. It feels like it would be different, but it isn't, right? You're just sitting in the chair. You're just eating your fucking peanuts, getting a beer from the, you know, the flight attendant. Like, it's so normal. So I think there's something like there's a piece of that here. It is just as simple as the no ship entering fold space. For them to be gone from the known universe forever. There's something kind of like. I think that's kind of the point. And that's why Frank really doesn't dwell on describing this insane process.

[Abu]

Yeah, Totally.

[Leo]

Now, immediately, their escape is impeded by the elderly couple in their garden. And holy. We have so much to talk about when it comes to this couple, Marty and Daniel, and we are going to save that for the takeaway. So stay tuned. We will talk about Marty and Daniel a little bit later. But in short, Duncan perceives not only the couple, but this net that has been cast to catch them or to reroute them or to. To do something to them. And he purges a number of the stars and he purges a number of the ship's systems in a way that Daniel hadn't predicted, right? He starts just, like, deleting shit from the. I don't know, the CPU core, the. Whatever the fuck drives this notion. He starts deleting circuits, purging information, which frees them from paths that would have left them trapped by the couple. I saw this as sort of, you know, Leto seeing the many paths forward into the future and kind of trimming the ones that led to cataclysm, Basically. I saw that as something kind of similar here, where Duncan is recognizing what is going to lead to them being trapped and getting rid of those things that will trap them, leaving them free to escape, basically. Now, all of this includes the star memory circuits, which means, folks, wherever the fuck they are now, when they emerge out of fold space, they have no way of getting home. They have no maps to get back to the known universe. If this is making you feel a little bit of panic, oh, my God, they've left the. And they don't even know how to get back. Yep, that's where Shiana is, too. Shiana is like, what? The maps? What the fuck did you do? You deleted the maps? But Duncan points out, no, no, I'm a mentat. I've got all of that logged in my head. It's fine. But more importantly, he responds, and I think this cuts to the point of what they're doing. He recognizes what they're doing, and he makes it clear for everyone in the room, quote, we are an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe. Isn't that what we wanted?

[Abu]

Isn't it? Indeed.

[Leo]

End quote, isn't it? Oh, my God. And that's the chapter.

[Abu]

What a chapter. Love a little Ocean's Eleven escape heist.

[Leo]

Yeah. So cool.

[Abu]

Here at the end of the book.

[Ad Read / Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, let's talk about our penultimate chapter, folks. Chapter 47. We join Marbella moments after she has realized Duncan's plan, that he has made the decision to leave her. She is Literally reaching for the phone and seemingly to call him maybe.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

As the no ship outside her office window literally takes off, shaking the crazy.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's a really tragic and sort of fun dual moment of action where she's about to reach out to Duncan, but it's already too late. They've made the decision and the thrusters are already firing. That ship is blasting off into space, into the unknown universe where no one will ever find them. When Balada asks Mirbella what all this rumbling is, what's going on, Mirbella is clear with her. Look out there. Duncan, Tag, Scytel, Shiana, the Hidden Jews and their people, all of them are gone.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And as Duncan predicted, Rubella is torn apart by this decision. This is just as heartbreaking for her as it is for him. But in front of Balada in her new role as mother superior and great honored mantra, she has to keep on a tight mask. She cannot show any emotional weakness here. So she turns to Blonda and talks about dinner. Dinner plans. Hey, I want that oyster stew again. Make sure you tell the chef.

[Leo]

Yeah. Something comforting, right? That's like the sea child meal, right? That's like Odrade's sea child meal. True.

[Abu]

That's a good point. Yeah. Like, her instinct is to once again have the stew. Something that is comforting for Odrade within, something delicious, something that talks to that inner sea child and home in a moment where she is. She's emotionally distraught.

[Leo]

And it's connected for Odrade, it's connected to her childhood and the love of her parents and love and this feeling of belonging in this. I think that's also something that jumped out at me. Merbella is recognizing that this external love, Duncan, is gone. And I think she's now trying to kind of balance by returning her attention to this kind of inner strength, like Sea Child from Odrade or this kind of inner memory of love. But also she's just eating, eating her feelings away. And honestly, girl, same God love it, right? Coping meal. That fucking works.

[Abu]

A little coping meal after you get some bad news or after a breakup, of course. We've all been there.

[Leo]

What's your go to?

[Abu]

Oh, gosh, my go to is Taco Bell. It's disgusting. So, so much Taco Bell.

[Leo]

Hell, yeah.

[Abu]

Give me that Crunch wrap supreme and let me smash it into my face.

[Leo]

I can't hear all my sad feelings.

[Abu]

Wipe my tears away with a tortilla.

[Leo]

You know, get the Diablo hot sauce and your tear ducts.

[Abu]

It burns so good.

[Leo]

Burns the feelings away.

[Abu]

What about you? What's your post breakup meal?

[Leo]

Oh, dude.

[Abu]

Your post heartbreak meal.

[Leo]

Velveeta Mac and cheese. Yeah, so? So it's like plastic. Like, what the do they make that out of?

[Abu]

Oh, it's so gross.

[Ad Read / Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Oh.

[Abu]

Oh, gosh. That's a good one. Damn. I used to be. I used to be on that Velveeta Mac and cheese grind back in college. It was sad.

[Leo]

Just. It's just a box of Velveeta and two malt liquors. Like, two cans of Crazy Stallion malt liquor and a bowl of Velveeta.

[Abu]

Okay, well, there you go, folks.

[Leo]

That's.

[Abu]

That's our version of oyster stew that speaks to our sea child. Now, speaking of Odrade, there's some really tender moments here from Other Memory Odrade, because throughout these final chapters, Mirbella is pretty heavily leaning on Other Memory Odrade for guidance and advice. And we wanted to read this quote because, gosh, it's so lovely. It ties together so many of the themes and ideas around o' Draid that we've been talking about for this entire book. And it, frankly, it would make for a fucking badass tattoo.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

Other Memory o' Draid tells Merbella, quote, some waves throw you Merbella, but you get back up and you go on with it. Seven times down, eight times up, you can balance on strange surfaces. End quote. Wow. Oh, dude, that's like a top 10 Dune quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, easily. Yeah, man, we've talked about some of those things. Like the seven times down, eight times up, like, that was a Japanese concept.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the red doll. Right, the red doll that gets knocked over but rights itself. Diorama, I think they're called. But, dude, I love that. And the idea of real boats rock and balancing on strange surfaces and all of that shit, man. So good.

[Abu]

It's so good. Really ties together everything that a Drade's about. Now, in Merbella's shock and in this idle chatter that she's having with Balandr, again, she's keeping that mask on. She's just talking about dinner plans. We also learn this is hilarious because we were joking about a food fight breaking out in the hall between the Honored Matre and the Bene Gesserit last week.

[Leo]

Dude, we fucking called it. We knew that there would be potatoes on the walls, on the windows.

[Abu]

We called it. It's not quite to the point of a food fight yet, but we learned from this banter with Balanda that Mirbella has been keeping dinner time segregated. Yeah, when she has dinner, it's Only with her honored Matre Council. And then the Bene Gesserit have to have dinner at alternate times. It's hilarious. I mean, like, we are seeing some of the nuts and bolts of this integration. It's not going to go smoothly, right? It's not just going to be day one. We're all shaking hands and learning from each other and everything's wonderful. There are going to be a lot of road bumps and setbacks along the way that Mirbela is going to have to navigate even stuff as innocuous as when are people going to eat? And how do we avoid food fights from breaking out in the kitchen?

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Dude.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So I found this a really interesting. It's such a minor detail, but it's some of the tiny, essential things that Mirbella's just gonna have to constantly be thinking about in her new role. We also learn in this section from this banter that this is crazy that Tiana stole the Van Gogh painting and has taken it with her on the no ship into the unknown.

[Leo]

What? Art heist. Off page. Art heist.

[Abu]

Art heist. Absolutely brutal. And this is followed by a line that actually kind of shook me quite a bit. Yeah. Marbella wonders at her own reaction to this news, right? Balanda's like, the Van Gogh painting has been stolen. Shiana took it. And Marbella thinks, quote, why does that hurt? End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, dude. Yeah, man. I. I wanted to say quickly, the first time I read this, I was like, right, because at this point, Mirbella and o', Draid, they are kind of in lockstep. She's got this personality still very close to the front of her mind. She is acting as Odrade in Odrade's environment. So Merbella might wonder why her inner Odrade, like, flinches at mention of this painting being stolen. That was my first read. But then she asks the other memory, Ohrade, why did. Why would they take the painting? And o' Draid LAUGHS so I think, having read this recently, but I think, like, now on this reread, I'm realizing it also has to do with this, like, lengthy, multi leveled deception that Shiana and Duncan pulled off, right? This like, shared conspiracy between Duncan, the love of her life, and. And Shiana, someone who on many levels she felt like she could trust or that she understood. And the fact that Shiana, like, managed to steal art, do a whole fucking art heist, in addition to escaping, just belies how much like, was happening under her nose that she didn't know. And I think that there's like, an emotional element here too. Duncan, Shiana, great read. These are some of the only fucking people in the universe that Mirbela has any connection to, other than, like, you are now my subordinate or I have to fucking break you because you're a wild person.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like, I don't know if she and Shiana would call each other friends, but, like, they were allies to a degree. And she loved Duncan and now she's been betrayed by both of them. It's really. Yeah. I thought that that line, why does that hurt? Is so human. It's so cool. I loved it.

[Abu]

I think that's a great read. It just shows that how premeditated this all was, too. Right? This wasn't a brash, random decision from Duncan or from Shiana. This was a premeditated thing that they planned for months, years, who knows? And I think you're totally right that it hits Mirbella on sort of a personal human level too. Like, wow, they've really been planning this against me and lying to my face for so long.

[Leo]

Yeah. So sad.

[Abu]

Okay, let's wrap up this chapter. At the end here, Murbella turns inward once again to Odrade in her other memory, and she asks about why Shiana and Duncan left. Oh, Draid, what do you think? And Odrade has this lengthy explanation that I found so fascinating. Here's a truncated version of it. It's the next phase. Muad'dib to tyrant, to honored Matres, to us to Shiana, to what? Can't you see it? The bitter medicine of a Shiana future. We once thought all medicines had to be bitter or they were not effective. No healing power in the sweet. End quote. And then shortly after, Mirbella asks, if it has to happen, does all this actually have to take place? And o' Draid's response is a simple quote. Some will choke on that medicine, but the survivors may create interesting patterns. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting. Holy shit, dude.

[Abu]

What a tease. I found this one of the most juicy bits of foreshadowing here at the end of the book.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think this is one of our biggest clues to hypothetically what Frank might have been laying the groundwork for in a seventh book, if he had ever planned on one or if he had ever imagined writing something more. This feels like a core part of the seventh book. What is this Shiana future? What is this new medicine that Shiana is going to introduce into an unknown universe out there alongside Duncan and Scytale and all of these characters on the no ship? I think it's definitely worth at Some point coming up, us sitting down and sort of talking about our own theories about a hypothetical book VII that may or may not have ever been planned outside of the notes that Frank had. But I do think this quote here at the end of chapter 47 is absolutely critical. This gnosthip that's jetting off into the unknown universe clearly leaves a ton of threads open, but at the same time also feels like a thematic conclusion. And I think it's a brilliant piece of writing and creative decision making from Frank here.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed. That idea of like a bitter medicine of a shiana future has so much meaning in every syllable. And the idea too, of like, it's not going to be without loss, it's not going to be without hardship, it's not going to be without pain. But what do you get out of that? Well, you get interesting patterns. The idea that, you know, survival and life and surprises, these things come with the cost of sometimes having bitter medicine and sometimes having loss. And it's just. It's all so resonant and for sure, I am so game. Especially now that we finished this book and after our mailbag episode, I think a dedicated episode. Just talking about the seventh book and, like, what that would look like. I think that is a good idea.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[Leo]

Well, that carries us into the final chapter of Chapter House Dune. It's hard to say this, folks, but here we are.

[Abu]

Here we are.

[Leo]

And classic Frank fashion. It's a fucking weird chapter. Can I just say, I feel like an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe is such a good line to end the whole book series on. And instead we have this fucking Daniel Marty chapter. Anyway, we're with Daniel and Marty, everyone's favorite characters who we know so much about. Just kidding. These are like the most enigmatic characters in all of Dune. The pair, they are in their garden in a scene that sounds downright peachy. It was a summer morning around her, flowers blooming, birds calling from nearby trees. There was a misty look to the sky, a yellow radiance near the horizon. End quote. Just beautiful. Lovely. What the hell? Sounds great.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Marty is giving Daniel shit. Marty's like, daniel, you fucking let them go. They escaped. What are you doing? Daniel was like, no, no, no, Marty, chill. I didn't let them escape. Duncan outmaneuvered my net, plain and simple. I knew he could see us. I had no idea he could see the net. And he evaded it. He's good, Marty. That's it. It's that simple. Right.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And their conversation continues. And throughout it, we are given some, like, confirmations. You know, we. We're getting more and more evidence that, yeah, Marty and Daniel are, in fact, face dancers. They've become independent because of how many Personas they've absorbed. They also briefly discuss this missed opportunity to fuck with Scytale. You know, Marty's like, did you see they have a fucking Tleilaxu master on board? Oh, man, it would have been fun to fuck with him. I love that. Just like.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

Meeting him and fucking with him. I don't know. The idea of them pranking Scytale is very funny to me.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

As well as just all of the other interesting passengers on this ship. I mean, they call it out as it needed to be called out. This ship is full of very interesting people. And there it is. It's past the net. They've escaped. They're where we can't find them any longer. And the chapter and this book ends as Daniel and Marty discuss the null entropy tube that Scytale has in his chest. Scytale has the capability of bringing back so many people as Golas, so many different humans, characters, Tleilaxu people, You know, all of these characters that we've come to know over the books, all of them could be brought back. Right?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Scytale is kind of a representative of that potential. Literally. Now, Marty insists, in fact, that is why Daniel let them get away. But our final line of Frank's final book is delivered as Daniel tends to his black roses. Didn't let them go. He's welcome to them, end quote.

[Abu]

Oh.

[Leo]

And I'm like, okay, great. And I guess the book's over.

[Abu]

Interesting words to end the book on.

[Leo]

What a fucking choice, Frank.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, there's just. I am already, like, bursting at the seams. There's so much to say about this final chapter that I'm holding tightly to, because that is what our takeaway is going to be about. We're going to go deep on this, but wow.

[Leo]

That's it.

[Abu]

That's it, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That is chapter house Dune. That is all six books in the Dune saga written by Frank Herbert himself. What a journey.

[Leo]

What a journey, indeed. From the earliest days of the boy waking up to meet Mohiam for his test. What's in the box? Pain. All of that through children of Dune and Dune Messiah. We got to God, Emperor of Dune. We did. All heretics, man. What a fucking journey. But, yeah, let's talk about Daniel and Marty right after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're talking about Daniel and Marty.

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[Abu]

All right, folks, welcome back.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Let's dive into today's takeaway, the last takeaway of our book club series on GOM Jabbar.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And this is going to be a big one.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So for this final takeaway in our final book club episode covering Frank Herbert's books, we're going to try and answer what feels like an impossible question. Who are Daniel and Marty? There are countless theories out there on who these characters are and what they represent and what Frank is trying to say thematically or narratively. With this final chapter simply Googling, Daniel, Marty Doon leads you down a rabbit hole of endless forum posts and Reddit threads and tweets with theories that honestly range from, like, totally out there and philosophical to, like, really bland and seemingly incorrect. Yeah, like super vanilla and everything in between. Here's what we know for certain before we talk about these theories. Here is, I think, what we can say for certain without a doubt as facts. Capital F facts about Daniel and Marty. We know from this final chapter that these two are independent face dancers who have absorbed an X number of Personas over their lifetimes. It's unclear how many, although at one point Marty says they're a dime a dozen. So more than a dozen, I guess. And ingesting these Personas has allowed these independent face dancers to break free from Tleilaxu control.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

I think that is basically all we can claim as indisputable fact about Daniel and Marty. Beyond any of that, we get into the realm of interpretation and speculation and theorizing.

[Leo]

Sure. Yeah.

[Abu]

So to touch on some of the theories out there that make the most sense to us, one of the biggest theories is that folks believe that Daniel and Marty are the quote, unquote, ones of many faces.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

These are the great enemy that drove the Honored Matres back into the old empire. These are the great enemy that created the Futars to battle the Honored Madres, some sort of godlike beings who have these incredible abilities and are toying with humanity and battling the Honored Matres. That's one theory, and it seemingly has some support throughout these last two books. And there's plenty of dots that you could connect that would lead you to this theory. I particularly like this one.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think it has a lot of evidence. And I will also say, I think that with Tuek, for instance, High Priest Tuek being a face dancer who got so invested in his role that he became no longer subservient to the Tleilaxu master. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like, that is. That's a good call in heretics. An example of the kind of beginning of this idea. And even Tylwyth Waf is going, holy fuck, is this possible? So this idea of them becoming the many one faces, biological warfare, Futars, all of that fits the pattern of these are twilights who. Face dancers. And these are the ones who. Or perhaps some of the ones who have driven the Honored Matre back. Maybe not these two specifically.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

You know, I could believe that Daniel and Marty are just two of maybe. I don't know. The size of the scattering is a little bit hard to fathom. Maybe they're. They're 2 of 10 million, but, like, who knows? I think that Daniel and Marty might not be the ones specifically, but I do think that they are ones with many faces or many faced ones or whatever they're called.

[Abu]

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I do think Daniel and Marty are the two.

[Leo]

Are the two, like the only.

[Abu]

Unique.

[Leo]

Yeah, interesting.

[Abu]

They're like the unique example of this outlier Face Dancers. But again, that's all speculation and theory. Right. Like, none of this is in the. Exactly in the text of the book.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

Now, continuing on with our theories, theory number two that I think we both really like and feel is particularly solid is that there are folks who believe that this final chapter is almost entirely meta. That these two characters here at the end of the book simply represent Frank Herbert and Beverly Herbert as the creators and caretakers and stewards of this universe. That they've created in these six books. And this final chapter is perhaps them finally releasing control of their beloved characters. That resonates strongly with me. And we'll dive a little bit deeper into some specific quotes that I think support that. Yeah, we just have to do our due diligence here. We also technically should mention the third interpretation, which of course is Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's interpretation on Daniel and Marty as the thinking machines, Erasmus and Omnius. Neither of those two thinking machines never actually existed in Frank Herbert's own books. They are Brian and Kevin creations. So that's a theory that we don't particularly subscribe to, but we should at least mention it and to nip some of the comments that we're going to get in the bud. Right, right away. We do plan on covering the last two books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson that technically, like quote unquote, finish out this series that are based off of notes that Frank Herbert allegedly left behind. But for today's conversation, we are not going to factor in those last two books. We're going to set aside this thinking machine, Erasmus, Omnius, Brian Herbert stuff and focus on the actual text of the books that Frank Herbert wrote and in particular break down the text of this final chapter.

[Leo]

I, I just want to say for like 10 seconds, I've been trying to put my head in the space of that makes any fucking sense at all with any of the fucking words that are actually said by these characters. They're like, literally, they're like, hey, Daniel, don't you love that we're face dancers. And Marty's like, yeah, we're face dancers. I'm so fucking curious how Brian and Kevin got to that and went, nah, there are robots that we invented. It's like, yeah, I can't even fathom, dude. So we'll, we'll talk about hunters and sandworms and I'll be very interested to see if they try to like bend over backwards into weird ass pretzels to justify that. Insane to me. I've actually been getting angry about this the last like 72 hours. Just thinking about how lovely of an ending the book in the book this is and then just going, yeah, but what if they were fucking robots, bro? It's like, fuck yeah, man.

[Abu]

Totally, totally. Careful, Leo. Your blood pressure, your blood pressure.

[Leo]

I know. I said to my wife today, I was like, can you believe it? She was like, I can't believe it. That's how she gets me to stop talking.

[Abu]

Oh, gosh. Anyway, plenty of more venting about those Two books coming up. Yes, we will cover them, but we're gonna set all of that aside for today.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, we'll get to it. So. Okay. Setting all of that fucking bullshit, that bullshit aside, let's talk about the text of this final chapter and let's talk about some of the things that are revealed. Let's start with this line from a frustrated Marty who's upset that Duncan escaped, quote, and I had such a nice planet picked out for them. One of the best. A real test of their abilities, end quote. Now, I could see this line going one of two ways, I think. On one hand, you know, the idea of just these are face dancers who are so technologically advanced that they are kind of really, at this point, they are indistinguishable for us from sort of gods. Right. Like, they have the ability to peek in on people's lives.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And, you know, I read this as literally, they were going to move the no ship somewhere. Right. Like, the no ship is in full space, but it's a no ship. It shouldn't be able to be intercepted this way. And yet there they are. They knew to find it, where it was. I almost interpret this as Marty was literally going to put their ship on this planet, maybe disable its systems. Yeah. And then kind of test them there. Right. Like, literally just totally, you know, season three of we caught some fucking people in our net.

[Abu]

Yeah. And that net imagery is very intentional. Right. Like, we're catching you in our trap. We're fishing you up in our net and putting and dumping you on this planet where we want, like where we're tampering with your fate.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That to me, really explains the net imagery that has been talked about in Duncan's visions, this whole book.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so fascinating also to have this delineation between Marty and Daniel and the net that they're weaving. The fact that Daniel is even. Like, I knew he could see us, but I didn't know he could see our net. Yeah. Also makes it sound like it is this, like, technology or it's this kind of thing external to them. It's something different than they are. And yet maybe they're using the technology. It's all very interesting. This also works very well, actually, with the. This is Frank and Beverly looking down on their creations, on these characters that they've been writing. Right. Like, Marty is saying, yeah, she had plans, a fun plan. This great planet. This, you know, had sketched it all out. The next adventure of this no ship, like Frank and Beverly, we know through Interviews. Frank talked about discussing things with Beverly and brainstorming with her in his lovely dedication to her. At the end of this book, he mentions, she gave this book its title. So is it so strange to think that they might have said, oh, it would be fun to send them to that planet, you know, or, oh, wouldn't it be fun to. You know, that really feels like the authors looking down on their creations, going, oh, and I had so many fun adventures planned for them. Damn. You know?

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. I think this quote could lean either way. It really supports either theory.

[Leo]

Yeah. And it's such a rich line as well, because it raises so many questions, Right? Like, did Leto see Marty and Daniel? Oh, my God. Was, you know, was part of the Golden Path, the creation of Duncan, this kind of serial human who, for whatever fucking reason, has the ability to perceive the net and avoid the net. Right. Maybe that prescient seeking danger from the scattering that Leto referred to and was, you know, breeding Siona. Maybe Siona was a test against the Marty and Daniel future that Leto was seeing. I need someone who's immune to prescience. Ah, Siona's immune to prescience. Maybe this is the best shot we have. Plan B. Duncan's got, like, a thousand Gola cereal lives. Maybe he will also be, you know, a solution to this problem down the road.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Who knows? Also, big question. What the fuck are Marty and Daniel's motivations? Like, I almost, through the tone of their conversation, feel like they're just looking for some entertainment. Looking for.

[Abu]

They seem bored, right? Like a retired couple.

[Leo]

Yeah. Just. We want our adventure show to continue, you know, Keep doing fun shit for us so we can enjoy it. And. And then every time Duncan broke the fourth wall, they were like, stop breaking the fourth wall. Keep having sex with Rebella in the shower. We don't need you to look at us. Stop it. You know? Totally. Oh, it's so interesting. It's so, so, so interesting. I hope that for our mailbag episode, people write in their personal theories. And I know that, like what you and I say, we often come at this from a place of trying to be comprehensive in a way that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people agree with us. Nevertheless, it would be interesting if people disagree or have other ideas that maybe we. We don't talk about today.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think there's a lot more theories out there than just the few that we're going to talk about today, the ones that feel the most solid to us. So I hope that folks share those theories. With us. Reach out to us with those theories. Come to the upcoming live Q and A recording that we'll be hosting on YouTube. Come to that with your theories locked and loaded to throw at us so that we can react to them live. That'll be fun.

[Leo]

Yeah, super fun.

[Abu]

Okay, another section from this chapter that I want to touch on today in our discussion is Daniel and Marty talking about the Tleilaxu Masters. Because I found this super insightful and also completely confounding. I was like, what the fuck are they talking about? Take this quote from Daniel, for example. This is a quote in response to Marty saying that she would have liked to study another Tleilaxu Master, AKA Scytale, who's on the no ship. Right, Daniel, response, quote, don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way, and you know it. If it weren't for them. End quote. And then, you know, dot, dot, dot. He trails off. He doesn't finish his train of thought. What do you mean, if it weren't for them?

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah, man.

[Abu]

I found this quote tantalizing and so juicy. It's clear that these two have had violence in their past. At some point, right? They've had to, quote, unquote, stomp down the Masters, whatever the that means.

[Leo]

Literally curb stomping them. So what I do is I take the Master's teeth and I put them on the curb, and then I get behind him. Jesus, Daniel. I know. I don't like to do it. I don't like to do it, but you saw how he was talking. It's funny. He's whistling at me.

[Abu]

He was whistling at me. I had to do it.

[Leo]

Babe, babe, stop it. Stop whistling at me.

[Abu]

So is there actual curb stomping happening? What do you mean, stomping down? This hints at a violent past, right? This hints that this two old love, like, retired, lovely couple is not some. Like, these two aren't, like, pacifists who are outside of the violent means of this universe. You know, they have participated in it. And that obviously raises countless questions. I think it's also clear that they have some sort of ethical system, right? Daniel's like, I don't like it. He feels icky about it. So, like, they aren't this, like, Dr. Manhattan, totally removed from humanity, don't feel human emotions anymore types of people. They still clearly have some space of, like, emotions and feelings and ethics and morality about their choices.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, I saw all of that. Within the framework of them being face dancers who they are no longer beholden to Tleilaxu masters, but they still recognize where they came from and the kind of culture they came from. And even though they have moved beyond it, the fact that these masters can't recognize a new power structure and force, you know, this violent confrontation being a regrettable like, oh, they're too stuck in their old ways. And, you know, it's fun to kind of taunt them, but we're not necessarily malicious to the people who gave us life. You know, I think there's. That also makes the quotes about God, quite interesting, right?

[Abu]

Yes, absolutely. And that's what I was going to get into next. I think there's some direct quotes about God because I suspect that when Frank wrote this chapter, he was like, people are going to think I'm writing about these like, godlike figures who are pulling the strings and maybe I should address that. So I found this bit of writing from Frank real cheeky. Marty reminds her husband that the Tleilaxi Masters that they've been discussing are not gods and were not gods. To which he responds, quote, neither are we. End quote. And I'm like, okay, do you mean that? What do you mean by that? What could that mean? Yeah, because again, even this, like, innocuous neither are we response could be interpreted in a couple of different ways. This is either Frank directly shooting down any theories that this couple are some like, mythical godlike figures, or this is Frank stoking the flames of exactly those theories that this couple are some sort of new higher form of being that to us mere mortals would actually seem godlike. Right. Like, who knows? Yeah, maybe they don't consider themselves gods, but if they're out here casting nets and changing people's fates, how isn't that essentially our definition of gods?

[Leo]

And also, like, if they're saying we are not gods, does that mean they do believe in gods? Like, oh my God. Right, right. Because like, if you ask like an, I don't know, like someone who's, you know, I'm basically atheistic, non theistic. At a certain point, if I got to the technological level where I could with people to the degree that these two could with people, I might be like, well, I'm not God because I don't believe, I don't really believe in God. But I mean, as far as they're concerned, I am a God. You know, Like, I think at a certain point you just have to recognize, like, yeah, compared to that ant. Yeah, I've got. I'VE got all the power, you know.

[Abu]

So yeah, there's a, there's an, there's

[Leo]

also a question there, right? Like we're not gods. As a reminder is like, don't get ahead of yourself. Or I don't know, I guess there's the two angles, right? Could be the kind of non theistic, there's no such thing as gods, but it could also be the. But we still believe in the Islamia and there are gods and we are not them. I mean both of those are possible, I guess.

[Abu]

Who knows? Again, we're in pure speculation and theory territory at this point. All we can do is read the words on the page and try to guess at what Frank Herbert meant by them. And of course Frank is not making this easy because immediately following this exchange, Marty jokes about what she would have teased Scytale with. And gosh, it's like so on the nose Marty says, quote, I was going to say, what did you expect? God himself with a flowing beard, end quote. What? We're going to tease Scytale about meeting God and that we aren't gods, But I don't know, you know, like there's so much there with like, are these mythical godlike figures, are they not? They're joking that they're not, but they clearly have powers that seem to hint that they might be Frank really keeping it vague and open to so many interpretations, really, to any interpretations.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And of course I think like kind of zooming out, looking at this from the meta sense, this whole God conversation also works when you think of this as mere representations of Frank and Beverly, because Frank and Beverly are the authors of this universe. They created it, they reshape it, they nudge it to their whims. And what are authors but gods of their creations, gods of their stories?

[Leo]

And also the conversations that Frank and Beverly might have where talking about these characters over. I mean this is like 30 years of Frank's life, like 20 years of Frank's life that he was writing these characters lives and deciding what happens to them in the universe and the reminders of like, right, but that doesn't make us God, you know. Yeah, yeah, we could do this for literally years. So for today, let's kind of put our flags in the ground respectively. Okay, and what are our personal theories and interpretations? And I'm going to kick it to you first. Abu, I want you to walk us through where you at. Are they gods? Are they face dancers? Are they robots that didn't exist literally like literarily until 30 years later? That couldn't have been in the notes. Oh, that's the one you like, huh? Yeah, thought so. God, what a stupid idea. Anyway. Yeah. So where are you at? How are you feeling?

[Abu]

Well, actually, you know, in sort of our classic Abu and Leo dynamic, I'm gonna stick to the meta theory because you're much more prone to the in universe theorizing. And I know you love a good tinfoil hat theory. And I frankly, I don't know in universe what these characters are. I don't think I can answer that confidently. And I don't have a strong theory outside of agreeing loosely with folks who think that Marty and Daniel are the ones with many faces, the great enemy that scared the honored madre. To me, the theory that I subscribe to about this final chapter and the end of this book is that this is clearly a chapter that reads as an introspective reflection by Frank Herbert on his relationship with his wife and on his relationship with the story that the two of them have spent a lifetime crafting together and has come to define their lives. This chapter feels to me like Frank Herbert in some sense saying goodbye to the Dune universe, or at least acknowledging on some level that the characters that he created will eventually outlast him. They will escape beyond his control like Duncan and everyone on the no ship has, and they'll escape beyond whatever schemes and ideas and narratives and chicken scratch notes he might have written down for them. They will eventually have a life of their own. And I say that because we know that this was near the end of Frank's life. Frank died after Chapter House Dune, and he never had the opportunity to write any future Dune books. And I wonder if here, late in life, after having lost his wife, Frank was beginning to think about his stories through the lens of legacy. What am I leaving behind? What's going to be remembered about my stories? How are they going to be interpreted and reinterpreted by readers for generations to come? What other adventures will these characters that I put on the page go on without me that I won't get to write? I do think here, late in life, Frank was asking some of these questions, and this final chapter reads to me like him reflecting on those thoughts. At the same time, I want to give props to Frank. He is a master of his craft, he's an extremely talented author, and he ends this book leaving a lot of potential threads open for future stories. There's so many unanswered questions left about the in universe lore around Daniel and Marty. And by taking this eclectic cast of Characters on the no ship to an unknown universe with no way back. He is effectively giving himself a blank slate for any future books. Right. He's kind of like, here's a blank check to myself. I can write whatever I want with these characters in the future.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

I think that's super smart. It's a way for him to leave possibilities open in case he does come around to writing a seventh book. He can take these characters on any adventure he wants. At the same time, though, I don't think that makes it clear that he was planning a seventh book. In fact, I think this, on many levels, this final chapter feels like closure. I find this quite satisfying as a conclusion to the Dune saga, actually, which I know is. Can be a controversial opinion because so many people think this is a cliffhanger ending and they're hungry for more. I recognize that feeling. I certainly feel it myself. The nerdy, lore loving side of me desperately wants to know what happens next. Desperately wants to get more lore about Daniel and Marty and wants those damn answers.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But I keep coming back to one of the core messages. I would say one of literally the core pillars that holds up the Dune saga, which is Frank always reminding us to embrace the unknown.

[Ad Read / Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And if you think of that theme, the end of this book and the end of the series absolutely makes sense. These characters have escaped the grasp of Daniel and Marty, escaped the grasp of Frank, Herbert and Beverly, and are going out into an unknown universe with no way back. They are fully embracing the unknown. And I think that is a beautiful way to end the book and feels pretty damn conclusive to me.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What about you? What are your feelings here at the end of it all?

[Leo]

Yeah. I mean, so same, I think, especially on this reread. The reality of not knowing the future. Right. Odrade is a character as a lens through which we see the last two books who has some prescient abilities but basically tries to never use them, and is a character who understands the value of surprise and the value of not knowing what tomorrow brings. These lessons that Leto left for humanity. They will reject the stability and the peace. Right. And they're going to seek out these surprises and they're going to seek out these unknown tomorrows. I think, especially on a reread, that does seem to be one of the most central themes of the whole book series. So the idea of this ship being so full of potential and then us not knowing what happens next feels like. Yeah. That's kind of the whole fucking point, isn't it?

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

So I think On. On a meta level, I completely agree. It's like there's so much radical potential on this one ship. Whether or not Frank literally meant himself to be Daniel and Marty, the idea of these characters that have been dancing to Frank's tune this whole time being free in this unknown universe, literally, we don't even know where they are. I think that is really poignant and honestly the perfect ending to the book. And again, I didn't initially feel that I was talking to my wife about that today. I was trying to remember why I was so dissatisfied the first time I finished Chapter House and how much I wanted that next answer. And I think it's because in literature, that is the pattern. When you have an ending of a book that has all of these unanswered questions, that's often because you are expecting answers. And then when the author doesn't give you those answers, it's dissatisfying. But I think what I like about Frank's universe, his writing style and these six books is that it asks so many interesting questions about ourselves, our culture, our lives, our world, religion, mythology, all of it, language. And it doesn't necessarily provide that many answers, but especially this last book leaves us asking so many questions. And when he talks about he wanted people to read that first book and how he wanted the pacing of that first book to leave them with the story even after the story was over. He wanted them to kind of like, you know, blow past the ending in this crazy momentum and be like, wow, what the fuck? But then to have the pieces of the story still with them. I kind of feel that about this. You end the book in this whiplash quick way and you're left with all of these questions. And isn't that a great place to be in as just like a person? You're like, inquisitive. It's so sick. It's great.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So, yeah, I think, like, on a meta scale, that's where I'm at. I'm like, I think, honestly kind of might be the perfect ending. I think the idea, especially with the dedication to Beverly following the chapter, this end feels like this beautiful hanging of his proverbial coat. Like, it just feels like he's, you know, he's taking off his. Whatever the fuck that type of hat was that Daniel was wearing. He's hanging his hat and going, there it is. There's the end of the universe, you know? Yeah, I love that. But of you called me out, so I have to do it. Okay, tinfoil hats on. Get them on, everyone.

[Abu]

Let's go.

[Leo]

Listen, I think I am convinced Duncan Idaho was, if not the most important part of Leto's Golden Path. A very important part of Leto's golden Path. I think Duncan Idaho, the raw material of this Gynazian swordmaster, was one of the most flawed human characters in all of Dune. And he was brought back by the Tleilaxu. Leto too, grew up with hate, understood hate, and then decided, I'm going to bring this fucking guy back thousands of times and eventually something's gonna snap. He's gonna have the serial lives. He's going to be the most human human to ever live with all of the fucking abilities, the mentat, the wisdom, the. He's been an old father, he's been a young buck. He's been it all. This man has lived every life. And he is going to be literally the key, the pilot that evades the net, the key that unlocks that unidentifiable universe. I think that makes perfect sense with Leto's understanding of the unknown tomorrow and these kind of broader messages within Dune. I think that is so sick. I also would love to go back because I think Duncan is mentioned to be one of the best pilots. Look at how Duncan flies in the earliest books. So the fact that it is Duncan flying this ship out of the known universe to end the book series feels so fucking relevant. Duncan's obviously the main character of this book series. How did we not notice this? My God. And ultimately I also, as I was thinking about all this, there's also this element, Duncan. Even the gholas without the serial memories, Duncan is still the swordmaster who will do the unexpected, right? Recall God, Emperor of Dune. The face dancer entourage that all disguised themselves as Duncan Idaho. The like 30 Duncan Idaho's that were attacking Leto. And what does Duncan do? He strips naked. He just gets naked because he's like, all right, they're all wearing fucking clothes. I'll be naked. Then he is the guy who does the unexpected. He understands what people expect and he avoids that. And isn't that the same thing that he's doing here at the end of this book? Stripping the ship of its informational systems, leaving them naked and exposed to the chaos of an unknown future. All in order to fucking dodge, break the ankles on a street side basketball pickup game in midtown Manhattan. Some fucking face dancers left looking foolish on the TikTok. Damn, dude.

[Abu]

Wrecked.

[Leo]

Wrecked. Get wrecked. Unk, you're looking chopped Chat. Are they cooked? Yeah. Yes, they are. Anyway, so you can now remove your tinfoil hats that's my theory.

[Abu]

I think that was great. That was so good.

[Leo]

Thanks, dude. Yeah, it's fun. It's great. Regardless, we're left with the book. We have these interviews with Frank too, where he talks about. We'll get into this in our episode, standalone episode about the seventh book. But knowing Frank, I don't know, I feel like this is the end of the series and I feel like it's a good end to the series and I'm now willing to defend that a little bit more than I was before we did this book series for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah, I feel the same. A lot of my thoughts on particularly Heretics and Chapter House have evolved and changed thanks to our conversations that we've had over the past year plus about them. But that's our takeaway today, folks. A look at Daniel and Marty, a look at some of the theories that we believe have the strongest foundations and hold up the most, and our own thoughts on what Daniel and Marty and what this final chapter represents, not only for this book, but for the entire Dune saga. Let's take another quick break. Yeah, but folks, stick around. We don't have spice morsels for you today, but we are going to be getting self reflective and talking through some of our feelings here now that we've completed all six books by Frank Herbert. So stick around for that. We'll see you in a minute.

[Leo]

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No, she thinks I'm a 10. One night only. Rated R. Only in theaters August 7th. Welcome back, everybody. I hope you're ready for some. Not spice morsels, but really spice morsels were the friends we made along the way. Yeah, let's talk now about where we're at. I mean, it's weird because I think you were right. Your instinct was right. Sticking to the standard structure of this episode felt weird because I think this is in many ways the arrival that we've talked about in abstract for over five years, but something that has been very hard to picture. And yet here we are in the midst of it. So how are you feeling? How are you doing, avu?

[Abu]

Gosh, that is such a tough question. I was really sitting down with the script yesterday, trying to type out my thoughts, and I was having a tough time articulating them because, as you stated, Leo, reaching this point, this end point, having covered all six books by Frank Herbert, always felt like a future thing, right? It was like, yeah, that's some hypothetical far future point that we'll reach someday. And now it's today. It feels a bit surreal. Yeah, that hypothetical far future point is today. It's right now. It's us recording this final episode and really trying to sit with my feelings, which is uncomfortable for me, as many of you will have picked up on over the many years of this show. I'm working on this, okay? I'm talking to my therapist about it. Trying to really sit with my feelings and put words to them. I think my first and strongest feeling is one of gratitude. The past six years of making this podcast and exploring these stories in depth with you in particular, Leo, week in and week out, building this nerdy little community, finding our nerdy little nook of the Internet. It's all been so different than what I had imagined, but also it's been so much more than what I could have hoped for personally. I've said this before on the show, but I have personally grown so much from making this podcast. And I mean that personally as a human being, but also professionally in my career, I've learned so much from making this. And looking back, I can say with absolute certainty, without a doubt in my mind that Gom Jabbar has changed my life. I would not be the same person I am today without Gom Jabbar. And I think that feels special and kind of wild to say, looking back, thinking in particular about Dune and how my relationship to Dune has evolved. I've said before that I've loved Dune since I first picked it up as a teenager and read that first book. But I think what these last six years have shown me is that teenage Abu barely scratched the surface of this story. And in fact, adult Abu, who reread the stories and reread the entire saga, barely scratched the surface. It wasn't until you and I got in depth, exploring these books chapter by chapter, taking into account the Dune Encyclopedia, really analyzing the themes and messages of Frank's story, that I've come to truly appreciate what Frank Herbert created. The depth of these stories feels almost limitless and feels like nothing I've experienced in my life outside of something like Lord of the Rings, which is almost in its own category.

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Right?

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

I think I've come to appreciate Frank Herbert himself, he was such a brilliant and complicated and yes, sometimes problematic author, but he was somebody who had big ideas and wild ideas and weird ideas and all of that shined through in his words, shined through in these stories. And I think that's something special. I think as an artist, as a storyteller, that's the best you can hope for. And I think Frank Herbert did it. And so as we wrap up this sixth book and kind of looking back, I will say my feelings on Dune have evolved. I think I have always been too harsh on these latter two books on Heretics and Chapter House. And while I haven't done a full 180, I'm not some sort of champion of these books now. I still think they have their problems. They'll never be my favorites in the saga, but I have really come around to them. I think there are some brilliant morsels of genius hidden within these last two books. And I think there's a lot of value here for folks who power through, read all six books, really dive into Frank Herbert's saga and take these books seriously. Really look at them analytically and critically. So I don't know. Those are some of my thoughts that I jotted down and wanted to share as we wrap up here. I think ultimately, like here at the end of the book club series, now that we're done with Frank's stories, at least, I think the other big feeling that's coming up for me is pride. I am really proud of what we've created, Leo. I hope that these conversations that we've had, these hours of tape that we've now put out into the world, I hope they exist for many, many years to come. I hope people stumble across them for many, many years to come. And I hope that they continue to help guide people through Frank Herbert's stories, to continue to give people a deeper appreciation of a thing you and I love so much and that has become so meaningful in our lives over these last few years. I will say, I think when we set out young baby faced Abu and Leo six years ago, we sat down and we were like, this is what we want this show to be. And these are our hopes and dreams. That's kind of been our goal from day one, is to celebrate these stories, to guide people through these stories, to look at them analytically, deeply, in a way that no one has. And I think here as we close the last chapter of the last book, I'm proud to say that I think we did just that.

[Leo]

Well said. Yeah.

[Abu]

What about you? How Are you feeling. Where's your head and heart at?

[Leo]

I'm good, I'm good. Yeah.

[Abu]

Oh, you're good, you're good. Cool.

[Leo]

Yeah. Thanks for listening, Mac and cheese.

[Abu]

Okay, let's go get a crunch wrap

[Leo]

supreme and let's maybe two or three. Yeah, two or three crunch wraps. Yeah. Yeah, dude. I mean, plus one. Thumbs up to all of that. For sure. For sure. No, it's definitely an emotional moment. I think we. Here, let me just crack open this non alcoholic beer. Okay. I. I turned 36 pretty recently and it's wild to think that for like a sixth of my life I've been picking through the pages of Frank's books. You know, as part of this book club, it's such a significant chunk of our lives. Like you know, from all of the jokes that we've made about on our phones, that we have our like, significant others, our mothers, like our parents, and then each other as like our pinned contacts. All of that is reflective of the broader thing, which is that we give our all to this project. And I hear you with the pride thing and I'm right there with you. I think we kind of knew that we could do something great together, and I think we have been and we will continue to do that. And I think this book club series is a testament to that. Now, obviously we could toot our own horns for the next three hours of just like, oh, man, we are so fucking good. Who's the best?

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We are.

[Leo]

But I think the reality is we've gotten lovely messages from people out in the listener pool. Of course we have our patrons who support us. And all of the feedback we've gotten has been so meaningful in shaping what we do. And I'm right there with you. That however much we know, we've nailed it, which is a little bit. I hope that it continues to be a great resource for people moving forward. I know that these books are not easy. If I was in my early teens, I think they'd be way above my comprehension level. But I have friends and I have family who are younger and listen to our book club episodes, and I think it really helped them. So I just hope that that continues. I'm definitely sad. There is a feeling that we always had as we ended God, Emperor of Dune, or as we ended Heretics, we always had that next book on the horizon. Or even as we ended each episode of this book club series, there were always more chapters that we got to look forward to and we don't have that anymore. Yeah, that's so bizarre. Now on some level, I think that frees up bandwidth for us to explore other things. Again, I'm gonna say it. I want us to talk about Dune Elixir by Alan Sullivan. But we also. I do have a morbid curiosity around Brian and Kevin's conclusion to the series. I think it is probably awful, but it's gonna be fun to. To read it with you and fun to talk about it with our listeners. And I think for those listeners of ours who have read those books and also don't like them, it'll be fun for them to kind of, like, enjoy it. And then. Yeah, I also wanted to kind of double down on what you were saying about these last two books. I think when I first read them, they didn't land for me the same way the first three did. Like Dune and Dune, Messiah and Children of Dune were so. Were such knockout books. And Godamber of Dune was very cool, too. And then Heretics and Chapter House I found so challenging the first time I read them. But this time, I think really going through them page by page really changed a lot for me. And honestly, like, Heretics with fucking Otrade and Tegu and like, Leto's message that they find 1500 years after his death, there are so many good moments in Heretics, and it's so many fucking incredible moments in Chapter House. Super rewarding to get back to these last two books. And again, I think a testament to Frank's skills as an author. Remember Jason Concepcion's, like, unbelieving tone when he was like, you've been talking about only Dune for, like, two years. Like, two years in.

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Yeah.

[Leo]

And that was four years ago.

[Abu]

We had so much more Dune left in us.

[Leo]

We had so much more. We still have some. And I think that that's a testament to Frank's universe that really. Frank sat down to write these books with, I'm sure, many goals in mind. But it is so clear that he had a belief on how the world should go, how people should live their lives, the importance of love, the importance of attachment. Even when you're like, dogma and conditioning tells you not to be attached. There are so many good messages in this book series that really come to the forefront these last two books that I really respect him as an author and I wish that more authors did that. Had a sort of, like, soapbox they were willing to get up and preach from, because it is that added degree of, like, he wrote a fun world, an interesting world with cool things and fun things happen. But also, you take a step back and you go yeah, it all stands for something. It all means something, and that's so cool. And, you know, there are books that I love that you just can't do that the same way with. Right, agreed. So, anyway, to wrap up. Yeah. Deeply, deeply, deeply appreciative of you as a co producer, a co host, co everything, co creator. The quality of stuff we managed to make together is so far beyond what I'm capable of that it's better than the sum of its parts, that idea.

[Abu]

I agree. I agree.

[Leo]

And to our listeners, if you're hearing this, dude, thank you. My life is also very different. We started this podcast. I sat down to read Dune in a park in Brooklyn, and now I live in the south of France. And the support of our patrons and this podcast and this project and what we have planned, it's what has made, in some ways, my life possible. And that's wild. That's really, really cool. And it just goes down to every person that people have recommended the show to, and, of course, the money. The money helps. The world is super uncertain, and as we talk about in our state of the imperium, neither of us are getting rich off of this, but. No, but the amount of time that we put into it, the people supporting us, it makes such a difference. And, dude, I'm so. The only thing that's keeping this from being three boxes of Velveeta kind of day is the fact that I'm so stoked for what we have coming up. Yeah, I think really, Me too. You know, beyond the stuff that we can't talk about, the stuff that we can. I'm excited to kind of shit on Brian. Brian books a bit. I'm excited to talk about Dune Elixir. I'm excited to revisit Dune Messiah before the movie comes out. I'm excited to look at Prophecy season two. Like, there's so much that I'm genuinely excited for that. Even though this is, like, the ending of a chapter, the ending of this, like, book series, we have our last mailbag episode. But I think the thing that tempers the sadness is the excitement for what's next. And I think that's where Duncan's at in his no ship flying into that unknown universe. I think that's where Mirbella's at. She's got that oyster stew coming up. She's finding a new balance within herself on unstable waters. And I don't know, I think that's. That's where we can all be at together, collectively, on this big no ship called Earth.

[Abu]

I agree beautifully. Said there's so many exciting things up ahead, not only for Dune, but for the other projects that we're working on and that we're cooking up and we'll share in the coming months more publicly. Like, it's just. We got a lot of juice left in us. Okay.

[Leo]

So much juice. So juicy.

[Abu]

We're so juicy. We're so juicy. We got a lot of juice left in us.

[Leo]

What would you say about Abu and Leo? They're juicy as well, in some sense.

[Abu]

Today's episode feels like an ending of a chapter, an ending of one big thing.

[Leo]

It.

[Abu]

It is certainly not the ending of Dune. It's certainly not the end of Gam Jabbar. We have so much more left on the plate to get through over the course of the next year. In particular, the movie, the TV show, the other projects we're working on, all of the documents we had to go through with the Fullerton archives. Folks, there's a lot of juice we're still leaking.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

If you can craft that mental image

[Leo]

in your mind, please do. And also. I'm sorry. Yeah. Please do. Yes. Apologies.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Deep breaths.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

My therapist is gonna be so proud of me. I'm gonna tell her all about this.

[Leo]

It's under the episode. Is she on Patreon? Rude.

[Abu]

I know, right? How rude of her.

[Leo]

That's the best way to support Abu.

[Abu]

You could. Dear therapist, you could support me mentally and emotionally by subscribing.

[Leo]

She's like, I hope listening to you today has helped. And you're like, you know what would really help? Being a Fremen. Name level. Anybody who's stingy.

[Abu]

All right, here's what's coming up next. As far as Chapter House Dune goes, when we finish a book, we like to have a big mailbag episode. And that's exactly what we're gonna do. So coming up, we are going to have a live mailbag episode over on YouTube. If you are a patron, you'll get the link in Discord, you'll get the link on Patreon, and you'll be able to join us during that live Q and A session, that live recording, where we are going to be answering at this point, any and all questions. Right? We've finished all six books.

[Leo]

No holds barred.

[Abu]

Shackles are off. No holds barred. Like any and all questions about Dune, about Chapter House Dune, about your theories about book 7. Send all of that our way. Email it to us. Drop it in the Discord. Join us in the live chat on YouTube during the recording and drop your questions and comments and thoughts along with us. It should be a really fun time. We did this for heretics. We did this for God Emperor and it's always a blast. So we hope you're looking forward to that. And this is a reminder that now's the time to get your questions sent to us so that we can be prepared for that mailbag episode coming up.

[Leo]

Yes, please do. Makes all the difference in the world when we have fun things to talk through together. Now, before we let you go, dear listener, one last time, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. And of course, the two best ways is one, to become a patron, early access to, oh, the book club episodes we might not be doing anymore. But of course all of the other goodies that come along with that. And right now, especially some of these secret projects that we're talking about, we are sharing with our Fremen Nabe level and above patrons. So check that out. It really does make all the difference in the world for us. And the other way to support your and the other way to support us is to check out our merch store, Gom Jabbar Shop. We've got some dune themed swag for you, some new stuff on the way. I keep saying it. It is true and, and I'm excited to show you. So keep an eye out for that Gom Jabbar shop. Those links are also in the show notes in case I'm talking too fast for you.

[Abu]

And a reminder that we love to hear from you. Gomtrabarpodcastmail.com is the place to get in touch with us. Email us your questions, your comments, your theories about Daniel and Marty do. Yeah, send it all our way so that this mailbag episode, this live mailbag episode coming up will be a blast. Com. Jabbar podcastmail.com is the place, of course, that's also where you can always just pop in and say hello. We love to get your messages. We're super behind, literally like months and months behind on responding to them. But eventually, someday, out of the blue, yeah, you'll get a response from us.

[Leo]

You'll go, who the fuck is Gom Jabbar Podcast? Oh yeah, tell us your. Tell us your comfort meal. No context. Just, just the name of a dish.

[Abu]

Love it.

[Leo]

Yes, I wanna, I want numbers of breadsticks you think you can eat at an Olive Garden. No context. What was the other? Non context. Just like a name. Name of something. Name would your reverend mother name be? Was that one.

[Abu]

That's right. I think it was Reverend Mother name at this point. We've asked for a lot of no context emails and our inbox is a fucking mess. Somebody did do the breadstick thing just a couple weeks ago and I looked at that email and I was like, is this spam? Should I delete it or should I open it? It just hasn't been.

[Leo]

Did I subscribe to a number mailing list? Sounds like a. I mean this, this

[Abu]

person did claim they could eat a lot of breadsticks. I'm still skeptical that y' all can eat this many breadsticks at Olive Garden.

[Leo]

We'll do it. We'll do it next time.

[Abu]

When we do, we'll do it. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. And of course we are. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.

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[Leo]

every Home hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month Plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.