Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 9)

Summary

GOM JABBAR: A DUNE PODCAST Book Club: Chapterhouse Dune (Part 9) Hosts: Abu & Leo Date: April 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Abu and Leo dive deep into Chapters 25–27 of Chapterhouse: Dune, exploring the evolving ecology of Chapterhouse, the mounting tensions between the Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres, and the intricate psychological themes woven through Frank Herbert’s narrative. The hosts bring their trademark blend of humor, insight, and Dune-level lore to bear, unpacking philosophical subtexts, character arcs, and even the real-world science hidden in Herbert’s worldbuilding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bus Ride with Odrade (Ch. 25)

• Odrade’s Inspection Tour: Odrade, traveling south with her (too large) escort, muses on the ecological transformation of Chapterhouse—the planet’s once-green orchards giving way to desert, luxury foods vanishing, and the growing sense that the environment is reaching a tipping point.
  • “A planet’s weather was no simple thing to treat, with easy adjustments each time there was a total equation to be scanned.” — Odrade [07:03]
• Reflection on Ecology: Both hosts highlight Herbert’s respect for complex systems, contrasting magical tech with real-world ecology.
  • “This isn’t magic. This is ecology. It’s well-understood, well-implemented technology that works together with ecology. And it’s so cool. I love it.” — Leo [07:12]
• Claire B. Appreciation: Leo begins his (mostly joking) propaganda campaign to elevate Claire B., the bus driver, as the best character in all of Dune.
  • “I'm committing myself… to convincing you all… that Claire B. is the best character in all of Dune and perhaps all of fiction…” — Leo [08:20]

Pondril’s Plight

• The tour stops in Pondril, where local leaders express deep concern over lost crops and scarcity.
  • Folly’s response: “The desert must grow and weather no longer can make every adjustment we need.” [10:10]
  • Odrade’s blunt retort: “Tell your gardeners, Folly, that… they can grumble and wait here until Honored Matres arrive to enslave them, or they can elect to go scattering.” — Odrade [11:05]

On History, Manuals, and Imperfection

• Odrade warns Stregi against blind reliance on history and manuals.
  • “Manuals create dangerous habits and histories are largely worthless because they’re so biased.” — Abu [11:01]
• Defects as Identity:
  • “Good identification required you to look deep inside and see the impurities. There was the gem quality of a total being. What would Van Gogh have been without impurities?” — [13:16]
  • Leo reflects on the line as emblematic of Dune’s focus on heresy and individual differences.

Cynicism and Indoctrination

• Leo unpacks a particularly cynical passage about “moral conditioning”:
  • “… each sister must make her own moral decisions. Never follow a leader without asking your own questions. That was why moral conditioning of the young took such high priority.” [15:04]
    => Irony: teaching independence by pre-programming morality.

Swimming in the Shrinking Sea

• The chapter ends with Odrade and some acolytes, including Sea Child and Stregi, swimming naked in the shrinking sea—an emotional, melancholic moment highlighting loss, power, and necessary sacrifice.
  • Odrade ultimately orders the sea’s elimination to accelerate the desert’s growth, despite her personal attachment.
  • “She orders Tamerlane to, quote, eliminate the sea as fast as possible, get weather to plot a swift dehydration scheme.” — Abu [17:00]

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2. Junction: Dama and Honored Matre Politics (Ch. 26)

• Honored Matre Leadership Parallels: Dama, pursued by Logno (who mirrors Bene Gesserit internal rivals like Belanda), reflects on the instability of power and the pitfalls of overt success.
  • “If you waved your success around like a banner, someone always wanted to cut you down. Envy. We will hold our success more cautiously this time.” — Dama [25:10]
• Religion as a Tool:
  • “She felt no mystical affinity to her religion. It was a useful tool of power... The tyranny of the minority cloaked in the mask of the majority.” [23:49]
• The segment emphasizes that both the Bene Gesserit and Honored Matres are deeply similar in using religion, power structures, and dogma.

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3. Duncan & Belanda: The Mentat Battle Royale (Ch. 27)

• Assassination Attempt: Belanda rushes straight from Odrade’s departure to try to kill Duncan, only to find him prepared—and in the company of the young Miles Teg.
  • “As fast as her, like, little legs can carry her, she’s like, give me a tube right the fuck now. I’m going to kill that.” — Abu [28:03]
• Verbal/Judicial Sparring: Duncan coolly draws Belanda into mentat logic, diffusing the physical threat and instead confronting her with brutal truths and emotional vulnerabilities.
  • “I ask why your sisters tolerate you. Are you a necessary evil, a source of valuable data and occasionally good advice?” — Duncan [32:05]
  • “It could be that you strengthen your sisters. Weak links create places others must reinforce. And that would strengthen those others.” — Duncan [32:20]
• Strategy Bombshell: Duncan deduces that the plan to send sisters into the Scattering is doomed—they’ll be destroyed or subsumed by Honored Matres.
• Outcome: Belanda, shocked and impressed, acknowledges Duncan’s value as both a threat and potential liberator:
  • “Dangerous, yes, but far more valuable than I suspected. By the gods of our own creation, is he the tool to free us?” — Belanda [34:04]
• Meta-Theory on Duncan: The hosts riff on whether Duncan’s serial resurrections were an intentional long-term strategy by Leto II, hinting that Duncan could be a linchpin for the species’ fate.
  • “Duncan, his serial lives, represents some of the deepest learnings that humanity has ever accomplished.” — Leo [34:34]
• Duncan’s New Job: Duncan tells Mirbella that the BG expect him to help found a religion around Shiana and act as their gadfly/conscience:
  • “They not only expect me to help them create a new religion around Shiana, I’m supposed to be their gadfly… making them question their own excuses for extraordinary behavior.” — Duncan [42:01]

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Thematic Deep Dive: Participation Mystique (Ch. 27)

[44:02 – 57:53]

• Term Explained: “Participation mystique” is a Jungian concept (from Lucien Lévy-Bruhl), denoting the psychological state where a subject cannot clearly distinguish themselves from a group, belief, or object—resulting in loss of individuality.
• Context: After observing the Kamai Watch Mother’s blasé attitude toward Duncan and Mirbella’s sexual antics, Belanda mutters “participation mystique” in irritation.
  • “Participation mystique is essentially when you subconsciously entangle your identity with another person or another group or another belief system, ultimately compromising your own individuality.” — Abu [47:32]
• Implications:
  • For the Bene Gesserit: The sisterhood itself is built around participation mystique, demanding suppression of individuality in service of a collective.
  • For the Honored Matres: Their sexuality-induced psychological dominance is a parallel form of participation mystique—subsuming the will of others.
  • For Shiana: Her unique immunity to Honored Matre sexual bonding marks her as resistant to participation mystique—a vital form of independence.
    • “Is that not just Shiana’s immunity to participation mystique in the sisterhood?” — Abu [53:46]
  • For Duncan & Mirbella: Their intertwined identities and emotional/sexual codependence exemplify individual participation mystique, raising doubts about Duncan’s objectivity.
• Meta-Irony: Belanda, an avatar of BG dogma, recognizes and scorns participation mystique in others but is blind to how deeply she is enmeshed in it herself.
  • “So to have Belanda, in many ways this very archetypical Bene Gesserit, scoff at a Watch mother for showing signs of being desensitized to the practices while herself being unable to acknowledge or wrestle with her blind spots and her hypocrisy… is, I think, the ultimate… condemnation of the Bene Gesserit's ability to self-assess.” — Leo [51:46]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Tell your gardeners Folly, that they have a choice. They can grumble and wait here until Honored Matres arrive to enslave them, or they can elect to go scattering.” — Odrade [11:05]
• “Good identification required you to look deep inside and see the impurities. There was the gem quality of a total being. What would Van Gogh have been without impurities?” [13:16]
• “If you waved your success around like a banner, someone always wanted to cut you down. Envy. We will hold our success more cautiously this time.” — Dama [25:10]
• “She felt no mystical affinity to her religion. It was a useful tool of power... The tyranny of the minority cloaked in the mask of the majority.” — Dama [23:49]
• “Participation mystique is essentially when you subconsciously entangle your identity with another person or another group or another belief system, ultimately compromising your own individuality.” — Abu [47:32]
• “Dangerous, yes, but far more valuable than I suspected by the gods of our own creation. Is he the tool to free us?” — Belanda [34:04]

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• [05:33] — Chapter event summarization begins (Ch. 25).
• [13:16] — Defects as part of identity; Van Gogh quote.
• [15:04] — The cynical take on Bene Gesserit “moral conditioning.”
• [17:00] — Odrade decisively orders the sea eliminated.
• [23:49] — Dama’s view of religion as a tool.
• [25:10] — Reflections on success, envy, and power.
• [27:46] — Duncan & Belanda’s “Mentat battle royale.”
• [32:05] — Duncan’s savage Mentat jibes at Belanda.
• [34:04] — Belanda’s recognition of Duncan’s importance and danger.
• [44:02 – 57:53] — Deep dive: Participation mystique (psychological/thematic analysis).

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Spice Morsels (Hot Research Nuggets)

1. The Kardashev Scale & G3 Suns [60:29]

• In-episode, Belanda snarks that cloaking a planet would require the energy output of a G3 sun.
• Science Fact: G3 suns are just dimmer/smaller than our Sun (a G2 star). Harnessing an entire sun’s energy would require a civilization at least Type II on the Kardashev scale (a la Dyson spheres).
• Dune Worldbuilding: Humanity in Chapterhouse hasn’t reached that scale—except maybe somewhere in the Scattering.

2. Indian Summer (Second Summer) [65:25]

• Odrade uses the term “Indian summer” to describe anomalous late-fall warmth.
• Historical Fact: ‘Indian summer’ (or ‘St. Martin’s summer/second summer’) is a real term—defined by the Old Farmer’s Almanac as a brief warm spell after a frost, before winter, usually in November.
• Origin speculation: Theories tie the name to Native American harvest cycles or folklore, but the true etymology is unclear.

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Wrap-up & Assigned Reading

• Assigned Reading: Chapters 28–30 (until: “Who won this battle? Odrade wondered.”)
• Closing Thoughts: The hosts express renewed enthusiasm for Chapterhouse: Dune, noting its overlooked depth and richness compared to earlier books.

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Contact & Support

• Patreon: Ad-free episodes, early book clubs, Discord access
• Merch: gomjabar.shop
• Email: [e-mail]
• Social: @lore_party (Twitter & Instagram)

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“There is no real ending; it’s just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad’Dib...” — Leo [73:24]

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Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. See you on the Golden Path!

Transcript

[Leo]

Do you really think me unobservant, Abu, be only a podcast producer?

[Abu]

I hear you.

[Leo]

I'm deep in your script.

[Abu]

I've given you no script.

[Leo]

But you have. You have, Abu. You're a miser the way you parcel out the bullet points, but I see it. You need me. Your episode is still in its early stages, but the meat's there and and must be extracted.

[Abu]

Why would I possibly need you?

[Leo]

Oh, you need my silliness, My inappropriate dick jokes. The things that have kept me on mic in the face of too many podcast bros.

[Abu]

You're a critical part of this show, Leo. I do need you.

[Leo]

Thank goodness. I'll make sure to make extra dick jokes today. Just for that. That compliment.

[Abu]

I. Buckle up, I guess, folks, for the dick jokes.

[Leo]

Buckle, unbuckle. I guess I don't.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we are back in the new year. We're recording this in January 2026. We're back in the new year to continue our read through of Chapter House Dune.

[Leo]

So good.

[Abu]

As we cross the halfway mark and enter the second half of this excellent

[Leo]

book, knowing anything about Frank's writing styles, I'm anticipating things are going to get 16 times more exciting, 40% more faster paced. With so much Weir weird stuff going on, I'm excited. This is going to be great.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's going to be great. And I would also put money down that things are going to get ludicrously fast all of a sudden.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But before we get into today's reading and today's assigned chapters, let's knock out some quick housekeeping. Starting, of course, with our spoiler warning. Today's spoiler warning is the same as every book club episode we ever do. Today's conversation will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we've covered thus far on the podcast. So as long as you are caught up with the reading, you are good to listen today.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as always, a monumental shout out to our quisatz Haderach level Patreon Daniel. I fucked that up. Leave it in Quezadz. Hatterach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Redding Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohen, Rem and Roger Young. Fellas, if I were taking a long ass bus ride south, stopping in Little Towns, you'd be in my bus. You'd be in the fucking. Right up at the front with me right behind the driver, hanging out, making jokes, enjoying the view, swimming nude in the ocean. That's us.

[Abu]

That part. Especially the nude. Swimming, for sure.

[Leo]

Maybe just the nude. For sure. We don't even need to swim. It's just no clothes in the bus. That's great. Thank you so much for your generosity. But of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level. Yeah, I mean, if you're doing $2 a month, you're like in the other bus. But like, we still deeply, deeply appreciate you and you are on the trip with us. So hey, thank you. And you can be nude too, in that bus. It's up to you. Yeah.

[Abu]

Also, quick reminder that of course, if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter of the show right now, that's totally a. Okay, we completely understand. There's still a way for you to show your appreciation and support the show. Check out the buy me a coffee link in the show notes below. That's where you can drop a one time tip as a thank you indeed.

[Leo]

Now, today's episode. Y' all know the game plan. It's a book club episode. We are going to begin by summarizing the chapters that we assigned for today's reading. We're going to get through a takeaway that started with two words and became many more. And then finally, we're going to wrap up with some yummy spice morsels which also represent way too much research for just one off quick little references. And that is the shape of today's episode. But before we get into it, we're going to take a quick break. So gear up, get ready for this long ass bus ride south. After the break, we're going to get started with our summaries. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail], own the dream.

[Abu]

Ever feel like your brain just won't click? Onnit Alpha Brain is a daily supplement engineered to support memory, focus and mental speed. Made with science backed ingredients Onnit Alpha Brain helps you lock in, tune out distractions, and stay sharp. See what your brain can really do. Visit onnit.com and shop Alpha Brain to unlock your next level. That's O n n I dash dot com. Welcome back, folks. Let's start, as always, with our chapter summaries.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Starting today with chapter 25. So in our first chapter, we join Odrade and her large, she would argue too large escort traveling south for this inspection tour of the growing desert and to also check in with Shiana. Odrade, as they're driving down, is sort of wistfully looking out the bus window and observing all of the changes taking place on Chapter House Planet and quietly mourning the loss of some of the luxuries that they've come to know. Luxuries like truffles. She's nearly ready to go to war for the truffles. But also the loss of the fruit orchards. Right. She's seeing how the desert is expanding and the rest of the planet is contracting.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's also clear from Odrade's thoughts on this bus ride that these ecological changes in the planet are approaching some sort of tipping point. A point of no return scenario where even weather control has fewer and fewer options to manage the various weather patterns across the planet. And I really liked a particular quote from this chapter that I wanted to shout out. This is one of o' draid's many thoughts that she has in this chapter.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think this quote in particular highlights Frank's knowledge and respect of ecology, something we know he was passionate about. Quote, a planet's weather was no simple thing to treat, with easy adjustments each time there was a total equation to be scanned. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, I love that so much. Also, because he's so scarce with some of the, like, specific details about how this technology works. Like, we've heard about weather control satellites since the very first pages of the very first Dune book. And it's always been this kind of broad mystery of like, okay, how the fuck do weather control satellites work? But the idea that they're literally just working with natural systems pushing air around, this isn't magic. This is ecology. It's well understood, well implemented technology that works together with ecology. And it's so cool. I love it. I love when he gets nerdy with that kind of thing.

[Abu]

Yeah, me too. I think it also shows, like, sort of a healthy respect for how everything is interrelated. Right. The universe doesn't simply operate off of one cause equals one effect. And to try and cram the universe into that box makes you blind to much of the realities of existence. And so I think this idea of ecology and weather control on Chapter House also acts as sort of a microcosm for just human existence and the universe at large. It's all interconnected.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's such a great point. I also want to point out really quickly, folks, we are in a bus being driven by Claire B. I and committing myself over the next the remainder of these chapters to convincing you all slowly but surely that Claire B. Is the best character in all of Dune and perhaps all of fiction, maybe all of written language. So buckle up for that, because I. What a man. What a great guy. And I'm a little bit joking, but I'm also a little bit serious. So I just want to prepare you all for the onslaught of pro clairby propaganda that you're going to be getting on this podcast from me for the next the rest of the book.

[Abu]

That's right, and the propaganda will make more sense as we read on right now. He's just the driver of the bus, and we just met him.

[Leo]

She makes it clear he's her favorite driver. Safe, reliable, on time.

[Abu]

That's right, love. A safe and reliable bus driver. Honestly, I wish a safe and reliable bus driver upon everyone.

[Leo]

May you find that type of love.

[Abu]

Okay, continuing with this chapter summary, the entourage then makes a pit stop at a small community called Pondril, where the local leader, Simpe, greets the Mother Superior. She kind of comes in with her entourage and greets the Mother Superior and everyone as they get off the bus. Odrade's fellow followers rush off the bus and begin to cool themselves off in a fountain in the town square because it is like, excruciatingly hot. Everyone is like, miserable. The AC could not be cranked enough to counteract the heat. Yeah, and of course we realize this is also another change in the weather as a result of the changing ecology and the expanding desert.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Right now, Simpe and a local orchard mistress named Folly speak with the Mother Superior and share some grave concerns from their community.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

Apparently a delegation of Podrill gardeners have complained about the changes in the climate and have warned the leaders of Pondrell that the town is going to lose what sounds like a significant part of their crop this year, which could be devastating to the population. Folly, for her part, has given this delegation of gardeners and the locals kind of the corporate response, which is really inadequate and unsatisfying. Folly has told them the desert must grow and weather no longer can make Every adjustment we need, end quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, I would not also be happy with that email response to my, like, very valid concerns.

[Abu]

Exactly. Yeah. That's not the response you want to get from corporate when you're complaining about something that's dire.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's going to be kind of a shitty time for a while. And you're like, oh, cool, cool, cool, cool.

[Abu]

Exactly. O', Draid, in fact, puts it even more bluntly, highlighting exactly how dire the situation on Chapter House is. Odrade tells Folly, quote, tell your gardeners Folly, that they have a choice. They can grumble and wait here until honored matres arrive to enslave them, or they can elect to go scattering. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so fucking crazy. Wow. Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, Dre, not mincing words here. Yeah. Your plants are going to die. Do you want to go off planet then cry about it?

[Abu]

Right. Cry me a fucking river because our rivers are drying up. So actually your tears might be useful. Bitch.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. Continuing with our summary here, the inspection tour then leaves Pondral, continues further south toward Eldio, which is the destination where they're going to be stopping for the night. And along the way, on the bus, Stregi and o' Draid discuss the dangers of relying on manuals and histories, something that Odrade warns Stregi against doing too much. Odrade, for her part, admires her sharp young pupil as she explains that manuals create dangerous habits and histories are largely worthless because they're so biased. They only show you a certain perspective on the events that took place, and that perspective can be extremely skewed. This is very much in line with many themes and ideas we've talked about in our coverage of these books. If you recall, in God Emperor of Dune, Leyte II in particular loves to burn historians because they write histories from a one sided perspective. And we talked at length in Heretics and in God Emperor of Dune about how history is a very difficult thing to encompass because words and a single perspective just can't capture the reality of human experiences and the truth of events.

[Leo]

Right, right.

[Abu]

It is an inadequate medium in which we try to record history. And that's essentially what Odrade is trying to get across.

[Leo]

Yeah, two kind of quick things here that I just absolutely loved from this. Basically this chapter. The first thing is there's this line about knowing people by their defects. Right. Quote, good identification required you to look deep inside and see the impurities. There was the gem quality of a total being. What would Van Gogh have been without impurities? End quote.

[Abu]

Loves this line so much.

[Leo]

Oh, it's so good. And while this definitely does flirt a little bit with the tortured artist trope, something that, like, Van Gogh is dragged into over and over again, I do think that another way to think about this is if impurities are only so called because the gem evaluator, the person looking at them for their own purposes, is going, I don't like that thing. That thing doesn't meet my criterium that I've just invented and created. If impurities are how people deviate from what we simply call perfect, isn't that one way to look at the heretic Ohrade and how she's kept her own impurities, like Sea Child, perfectly guarded in defiance of Bene Gesserit judgment and the training and the indoctrination and this, like, lifelong goal of, like, eradicating love somehow. And maybe they shouldn't even be called problems anyway. I just love that as a little microcosm of that idea. And again, we know how much Van Gogh is important to Beaudrade in her kind of connection to humanity. That's what grounds her, that painting. The second quick thing that I wanted to point out here is perhaps I want to get your read on this as well, Abu. But this seemed like probably the most cynical line in the book to me.

[Abu]

Yes, I agree. I agree with your take here.

[Leo]

Okay, so here's the line. Moral conditioning, quote. O' Draid looked sideways at the pensive acolyte. Long ago, the sisterhood had ruled that each sister must make her own moral decisions. Never follow a leader without asking your own questions. That was why moral conditioning of the young took such high priority. End quote. And listen, initially you're like, yeah, I'm on board. Listen, you shouldn't blindly follow leaders. That seems very in line with Frank's broader thesis on Dune. Sure, that's cool. But then you get to that line of like. And that's why it's so important to indoctrinate the children in our morality as soon as possible. Yeah, and this Shiana's kind of a problem because maybe we got to her too late, and she's got her own crazy ideas of what good and bad are instead of our objective, factual truth. It's like, it's so. God, I love it. It is so cynical. And it's coming from o' Draid as well, who's someone who, again, has defied Bene Gesserit law in many ways her whole life.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, to wrap up chapter 27 here at the end of the chapter, O' Draid actually orders her wonderful driver, Claire B. The Goat.

[Leo]

Best character in books.

[Abu]

Yeah, the best character in the books. Clearly the propaganda has begun, folks.

[Leo]

Just warning you, I don't know what you're talking about. He's amazing.

[Abu]

She orders Clareby to detour from Eldio for a second and head toward the shrinking sea that they can all see off in the distance so that she can take a swim. Sea Child wants to go take a swim now. As she wades naked in the waters, some of the other acolytes jump in with her and cool off. Some people just stay on the banks and watch.

[Leo]

Streggy joins her. I thought that was so sweet.

[Abu]

Streggy joins her.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's really sweet. Yeah, she's like, all right. Nude in the water. Yeah, sure. Fuck it.

[Abu]

Yeah. They. They hop in with Mother Superior. Kind of cool. We get a couple of final thoughts here from Odrade as she is wading through the waves of this sea. The thoughts are, frankly, pretty dark and melancholic. It's clear that this is one of the last times she ever expects to be swimming in this particular sea, in this all important sea for Chapter House. And she ultimately has this internal struggle with Sea Child, this desire to hold on to the water that she loves so much for as long as possible, and the reality of being Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit and fighting a war against the honored madre and the brutal decisions she needs to make. Ultimately, at the end of the chapter, she comes out of the water. She has made her decision and she does what needs to be done. She orders Tamerlane to, quote, eliminate the sea as fast as possible, get weather to plot a swift dehydration scheme. End quote.

[Leo]

Incredible. I mean, just unreal.

[Abu]

Yeah, unreal.

[Leo]

In our next chapter, we are back on Junction. Now we have returned to Dama, who is in a particularly good mood as she's enjoying a stroll through the garden with Logno, everyone's favorite backstabbing usurper. So Logno gives the great Honored Matre an update on the Tuj. Her return to Boozel and Dama orders the Touj captured and brought back. Basically, like, nevermind, bring her back to me. I want her back here now. Quick side note, are we all appreciating the direct parallels here in this book that so often juxtaposes the Honor Matre and the Bene Gesserit? We have Dhamma on Junction thinking about the weather, going, oh, I talked to them. I wanted a sunny day. Also, Logno being such A constant fucking thorn in her side. Exactly the way Balanda is. You know, like. Like Dom is going. I keep her around because it strengthens me to have this, like, opposed person who wants me dead and wants my spot. And that's fucking Blonda. Anyway, I think Frank is very subtle at times. He's getting less subtle, and I'm here for it. I'm having a great time.

[Abu]

Yeah. Little side note to your side note. This is a chapter that I felt was perhaps a little repetitive and unnecessary. I think at this point, we've made a lot of direct parallels. Look, Bene Gesserit. Do a thing. Now, the Honored Matre essentially do the same thing, but in a different way. You get it? You get it. And we've done that now for hundreds of pages in the book. I'm starting to feel a little loss of momentum, and I would have liked Frank to start moving the plot forward. We still haven't fucking captured the Tuj. She's still on Boozel. Didn't we plot this toge plan, like, 20, like, I don't know, 15 fucking chapters ago? Like, yeah, I guess all, like, the. That's just a small note. I really enjoyed these chapters, and for what it's worth, I'm enjoying this book. But this is the part of the book where I'm feeling a little bit of strain on the pacing, and I'm wishing that things would get going because we've done a lot of plotting and now I feel like we are repeating a lot of sentiments that we have already repeated a number of times in the book.

[Leo]

I'll also say another possibility is even though Dama ends this chapter with thinking about all the planets that she's captured, she is still thinking about Lucilla and how dangerous Lucilla's training and intelligence is, and how this is indicative of how dangerous the witches are and how quickly she needs the witches to be gone. And yet they still haven't fucking found their planet and she still hasn't found. So, again, it's frustrating and it's not necessarily a good reading experience, but maybe this is Frank leaning in again to us, going, I know the reader wants shit to get done just like Dhamma does, honestly.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But here's Dhamma in this kind of frustratingly uneventful chapter. Again, that might turn people off of the book, but I think there's different ways to kind of engage with that very real feeling. And I'm right there with you. This chapter, basically, nothing fucking happened.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Leo]

So we do get some kind of Interesting insights into the Honored Matres past through Doma's thoughts. Again, Frank is very sparing in some of these details, so we'll celebrate them when we can. For one, we learn that Dur, we've heard der quite a few times throughout the last two books. But we get confirmation that this is what they call their home planet. And we get the additional confirmation that the Honor Matre came to the old empire because they were fleeing from danger again. If only imagining for a second. Oh, if only there weren't the many faced ones with their fucking futars hunting us down. Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be wonderful right now we also learn that there this is a continued confirmation. They're continuing to try to rearm their weapon. How do they work? No one fucking knows. The Ixians have it. But the Ixians haven't been able to crack the code. You know, they're. They're on like ipod touch and you're giving them like the Samsung Galaxy Fold S12 and they're like, I don't barely know what this does. You know, it's like this is out of their league. But they're trying their best and. Or are they? And Dom is going, have they suspected it's a weapon? And maybe, maybe they're against us now. She's constantly looking in the shadows to see schemes being risen against her. And that's probably why she's still in power despite her very again long nose getting 3cm too close behind her. And she's going, you fucking back up. All right, sure. So this is how she stays in power. Now we already knew that the honored Matre worshiped Golder, AKA Leto to. But we do get some fresh insight into Dharma's view of religion. And hey everybody, get your like bottle of Grey Goose ready because I want you to take a shot. If this sounds familiar, okay? Not sponsored by Grey Goose, by the way. Quote. She felt no mystical affinity to her religion. It was a useful tool of power. Take a shot. The roots were well known. Plato too. The one those which is called the tyrant and his father Muadib. Consummate power brokers. Both of them. Lots of schismatic cells around, but those could be weeded out. Keep the essence. Take a shot. It was a well lubricated machine. Take another shot. The tyranny of the minority cloaked in the mask of the majority. End quote. Take three more shots. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. My God, we're all drunk.

[Abu]

They said, hey, Benny Jesuit, can we copy your Homework. And we'll make it sound a little different.

[Leo]

Yeah. Benny Jesuit. A little different, but kind of the same, you know, it's great. But I do love this because we've gotten quite a bit of, like, little hints of the mysticism of Gul Dur and from Dor and this whole thing. And the question is, how much do the people at top believe it? And once again, Frank is giving us an example of a system of power focused around mysticism and religion, where those in power don't give a shit and don't care. This is simply a tool. It's excellent. Again, the pattern continues. Whether it's from the scattering, whether it's back in the old imperium. As always, religion mysticism is a means for those few to mask their control in the. In the. What is it? The mask of the majority. The tyranny of the minority cloaked in the mask of the majority. Tell us how you really feel.

[Abu]

Right. Brilliant.

[Leo]

Finally, there is a small hint in this chapter about the. About the Honored Matres former empire and why they lost it. According to Dhamma, quote, success. That was the danger it had cost them an empire. If you waved your success around like a banner, someone always wanted to cut you down. Envy. We will hold our success more cautiously this time.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

End quote.

[Abu]

Interesting.

[Leo]

Also somewhat sounds like a lesson the Bene Gesserit have known well from their long archived knowledge of humanity. When you are in power, people will try to take you out of power.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And ultimately, one of the ways to hold long term control and influence is to do so in a way that you're not waving around a banner showing everyone that you've got the voice and showing everyone that you've got prana bendu weirding combat techniques and things like that. You don't do that. You don't draw that kind of attention to yourself. And of course, I say all of that and Dharma goes, that sounds like science. Give me your science. I don't know what you're talking about. Wave your banners harder. Yeah, and that's. That's why the Honored Matre are on a losing path even as they win. Right?

[Abu]

Yeah. But I think. I think we talked about this back in part four, maybe of this book club. But this, I think, shows that Dharma is a little bit different than perhaps previous Honored Matre have been. She is recognizing that we made a mistake and we need to learn from it and we need to change. We can't just come back to the old empire, take it over with our brutality and strength, and then Start waving our flags around again because we're just going to cultivate envy and rebellions and have to run again. This already happened to us once before. Let's learn our lesson. And we, you know, we talked at length about her meeting with Lucilla and that sort of negotiation, back and forth miscommunication that the two were having. I think I want to give Dahmer her flowers here. She. She, I think, is thinking differently than past Honored Matres have.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's a great shout out, because I do imagine the leadership of the Honored Matre, as they came back to the old imperium, might have been in kind of fight or flight, just going on animalistic. We need to get the fuck away from this threat now. Dom is in charge, and Dom is actually thinking strategically, how do we, as an order, survive? So I think that's a great point.

[Abu]

All right, that's chapter 26. Let's wrap up our summaries. One more chapter to go, folks. In our final chapter today, this one is a fucking doozy, of course. And the temptation to, like, break this chapter down line by line was very strong, of course.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But we're gonna try and summarize it, hit some of the major points, and then later in our takeaway, we're gonna dive a bit deeper into a part of this chapter. So in chapter 27, we join Balanda as she is rushing over to the no ship to confront that damned mentat Gola. Yeah, With o' Draid and Tamlin out of the picture, they're on that trip south. She, folks, is planning to seize the moment and kill Duncan Idaho. Wild stuff.

[Leo]

Wild. And it sounds like it's seconds after the door closes. Like, o' Dre's like, all right, be good. Belanda, the door. And then Blonda's like, where's my knife? Like, it's immediate. It's crazy.

[Abu]

As fast as her, like, little legs can carry her, she's like,

[Leo]

give me a tube right the fuck now. I'm going to kill that. She's, like, in the vacuum with a knife extended. She's like, here I come.

[Abu]

I love that image of Philande. That's exactly the energy I'm imagining here. Now, luckily, Duncan has been expecting this moment, is ready for this, and he is waiting for her. He literally pulls the, like, turn around in your computer chair. Belanda, I've been expecting you.

[Leo]

How nice of you to join me, Belanda. Yeah, it's a great moment.

[Abu]

And he also has Miles tag. Young Miles tag there in the room with him. As sort of insurance. Right, Right. Balanda is maybe not going to act rashly if it means damaging the Bashar and the Bashar's future loyalty to the sisterhood. So a very smart play from Duncan to also have Miles tag in the room there with him. Now, the standoff between Duncan and Belanda starts off very tense, very high energy. Right. She's coming in with the knife fucking out and pointed. But Duncan is luckily able to diffuse the tension, at least bring it down from a 10 to, like, an 8, by getting Blonda to sink into mentat mode. Belle, think like a mentat. And he reiterates to her that he. I feel like he's had to repeat this over and over again to the fucking sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Yes, I am a mentat.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

Yes, I am a Tleilax to experiment. I don't know what they've done to me. No, I'm not a Kwisatz Atara.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

And using that mentat logic, once he has Blonda in mentat mode sort of settled down, the knife maybe is lowered. Not put away, but lowered. He attempts to reason with her. He says things like, quote, dancers on a common floor. Belle Tao, we may not appear to dance together, may not use the same steps or rhythms, but we are seen together, end quote. We're in this together. We have a common enemy. I'm on your side. You do not need to be here with that knife ready to kill me right now.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But Balanda is not so easily convinced. And so over the course of this chapter, we witness this really incredible and beautifully written sort of Mentat battle royale back and forth as the two of them trade verbal jabs and attacks of logic.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also, by the fucking way, I think Frank doesn't always write kids to be cute.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like, I think oftentimes the kids are kind of. Especially because most of them are abomination. But it's like the idea of them being kind of adorable. Fucking Tag in this chapter is so cute, where he's, like, tapping Duncan on the arm and he's like, duncan, are you two fighting? Like, what's going on? Are you. Is this poetry? Is this a rap battle? Like, what's going on? I'm like, explain it to me, Blonda. He's not explaining it. What's going on? You trying to kill him?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Are you angry? What's going on? I'm a kid. Yeah. I loved it. I was like, tag is fucking adorable. Oh, what a great kid.

[Abu]

Yeah, it was cute. There was also that cute moment where he's about to raise his hand and ask a question again, and Duncan is like, josh, we're in a real tense moment. You don't speak.

[Leo]

So good. So good.

[Abu]

Okay, so let's talk about this Mentat battle royale that we witnessed and highlight some moments here. For what it's worth. Duncan seems to be on the offensive, and he seems to have the upper hand throughout this fight. He is ruthless. Really digging into some of Belinda's insecurities in ways that I think really shock her. Really, really shined the light on her in a way that she's uncomfortable with. There's two quotes here I want to share. For example, Duncan says at one point, quote, I ask why your sisters tolerate you. Are you a necessary evil, a source of valuable data and occasionally good advice? End quote. It's fucking savage.

[Leo]

So mean. It's so mean.

[Abu]

Okay, here's another anger from Duncan. Quote. It could be that you strengthen your sisters. Weak links create places others must reinforce. And that would strengthen those others.

[Leo]

Yeah, end quote. You're not carrying all your weight. Everyone else has to pick up after you. That strengthens. Their lower backs are strong because they keep carrying your dead weight. It's like, whoa, that's wild.

[Abu]

It's really savage stuff from Duncan. It's wild. My jaw dropped at a couple of these lines. And Blonda, of course, is really thrown off kilter. She's like, whoa, bro, I did not expect you to come at me so hard. And this once he has her in a vulnerable position. Once he has her more open to what he has to say, Duncan drops what I think is kind of a bombshell. He claims to have deduced that the sisters that have been going out into the scattering, right, all of these sisters that were disappearing out into nowhere as backup plans. If the Honored Matres destroy us, he says, that's not gonna work.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Have you heard from any of them? They've all just been disappeared because you know what's happening to them. They're going out into the universe, and they're getting fucking slaughtered by what's out there. Or they're interacting with Honored Matres who are subjugating them.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah.

[Abu]

Your scattering plan is not working.

[Leo]

Right. Or they're becoming Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Or they're becoming Honored Matre. Right. You're either adding to your enemy's forces by sending your sisters out there, or you're sending them to their deaths. It is a fruitless effort, and it's not working. And Belle is like, whoa. Oh, my God. Like, this guy is valuable and she's really awed by his abilities. And in fact, kind of does a bit of a 180. The knife at this point has been put away. She has sheathed the knife.

[Leo]

She's turned it around. She's like, maybe I should be the one being knifed. Oh, my God. Good point, Duncan. He's convinced me,

[Abu]

right? She's completely convinced. Quote, Dangerous, yes, but far more valuable than I suspected by the gods of our own creation. Is he the tool to free us? End quote.

[Leo]

Man, Fucking Balanda.

[Abu]

Those are Balanda's thoughts.

[Leo]

She. I feel like she's such a. She's so. Such a hypocrite so often, but she. I mean, she's also very smart. She's very capable, but also. I just wanted to take a second, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, too. But I found myself thinking a lot in this section, especially about Leto's hand in all of this, because just before that quote, we get this quote, the tyrant trained him. Thus time and time again, end quote. And we learn that Duncan, yes, he's been a mentat multiple times. He's had the best mentat teachers multiple times. He's been a truth sayer before. He's been trained in ways of combat from the schools of Ginaz. He's been trained in by Gurney Halleck himself. Duncan, his serial lives represents some of the deepest learnings that humanity has ever accomplished. And I think when we talked about God, Emperor of Dune, we asked a lot of questions about what does it do for Leto to have Duncan Idaho around. He's a reminder of the old Atreides morality. He's a tie to Leto's humanity. He's spontaneity. He's a bit of that old World thinking. All of these things focus on what benefits Leto. But another possibility that kind of came to mind as this chapter was unfolding was what if Leto had in his, you know, awareness of the future and the Golden Path? What if he saw a Tleilaxu creation who would combine the serial lives and the experience of all previous Golas? And what if that's why he kept bringing Duncan back, to continue educating him and giving him hundreds of lifetimes worth of knowledge and glimpses of wisdom and training to make sure that whatever role this final Duncan would play, he might be this important linchpin in the plan. Now, again, this doesn't necessarily work whole cloth because Duncan is someone who. He doesn't have prescience. So you could probably see him in pressing visions, but he is now mixed with Duncans who are like, post siona, I think, or something like. I don't know if that completely falls apart.

[Abu]

He also spends a lot of his existence in a no ship, which technically Leto wouldn't be able to see, Right?

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah. And that moment of him discovering his serial memories is, I think, in the no ship. But the second he leaves the no ship or if he's ever outside of the no ship at any point, the maybe he then comes back onto Leto's radar. I don't know. Like, what do you think about that kind of tinfoil hat theory that, like, Leto knew at some point Duncan's serial lives would collapse into a single consciousness. And this was important?

[Abu]

I think it's a very valid theory. I think you're onto something. Was that maybe Frank's intention with writing? I don't think so, given that Frank sort of wrote these books one at a time.

[Leo]

Almost certainly no.

[Abu]

You know, like, Frank was very much like, okay, I'll write the next one later. And so I think staying just within the lore and not thinking of sort of the realities of the writing authorship experience, I think it's a totally valid, logical step to assume that Leto was planning much more for Duncan beyond just falling in love with Siona and creating Siona babies in the future and making humanity blind to prescient visions.

[Leo]

Right. Right.

[Abu]

Outside of Duncan just being like a hold to the Atreides and his humanity, there could be another reason to constantly kill and rebirth a Duncan over and over again. Right. Giving them that very human experience of many lives without resorting to other memory, which we have talked many times is flawed. Without resorting to, like, Tleilaxu gross ass, like, cloning shit, which is obviously, like, flawed in its own way. And creating, like, as we discussed in a. I think in the last episode, Duncan being the sort of idealized version of a human who is in touch with his humanity more than any other character. Maybe Leto's ultimate goal with Duncan was that, you know, I don't think that all of Leto's journals were perfectly translated or that he wrote everything down in his journals. Maybe humanity doesn't need to know about Duncan and his plan. All of his plans for Duncan. And so we never learned about it. So I think it's a valid in Lore theory. I think it falls apart when you think about the authorship of the books themselves. But I think it could still hold true within the context of the rules we know of the universe.

[Leo]

Yeah. And again, maybe Frank left open certain things so that he could come back to them. And play with them. And maybe this was something that he intended to be a piece of the puzzle, even if he hadn't thought of it at the time of God, Emperor of Dune. The benefits, of course, of not writing out every fucking thing explicitly. You have the freedom to play a little bit. Also, we know Leto left a message for someone like Odrade to find at about the time of Odrade. That's true. And that's happening right now as well.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So the question of, is this outside of Leto? Are his plans still active? As many characters the last two books have stopped and pondered? Maybe Duncan is a small piece of that. Just thought that was kind of fun. Hadn't occurred to me the first time I read this book. And thinking about it now I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of a fun theory. Main character of Dune next to Claireby, of course.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right. Claraby won Duncan two. Okay, returning to our chapter summary and to wrap up this chapter, the rest of the conversation between Duncan and Balanda bounces around a couple of different topics now that they've sort of sorted out the whole knife situation and the knife has been put away. They talk about scytale. Duncan mentions how Mirbella and Duncan could help observe scytale. They talk about no ship technology. We'll circle back on that in our morsels. Later. They talk about the idea of cyborgs and the idea that maybe Leto was fascinated with how technology and humanity could merge, maximizing the potential of both. Which feels a little anti butlerian. You know, it feels like we're skirting some laws there.

[Leo]

Yep.

[Abu]

And of course, the topic of Shiana comes up as well. The all important Shiana and her incredible immunity to honored madre sexual bonding. We'll touch on that in a little bit too. Now a shaken Balanda leaves without really answering any of Duncan's questions. She doesn't respond to the Scytale thing. She doesn't respond to the Shiana thing. She just kind of is like she's really shook and she just leaves.

[Leo]

Hate when you come home. You had one errand to get done and you're like, well, guess I'll do it a different day. You know, I'll go to the post office next week.

[Abu]

I'm sure the post office will be open next week. The chapter then ends with him going to Mirbella and basically filling her in on everything that's occurred and sharing with her some new details he's learned about the Bene Gesserit's plans Some things he's picked up in this conversation with Balanda. Quote, they not only expect me to help them create a new religion around Shiana, I'm supposed to be their gadfly, their conscience, making them question their own excuses for extraordinary behavior. End quote. That's the role that the Bene Gesserit expect Duncan to play.

[Leo]

Yeah. So interesting.

[Abu]

Now I know at the end of the chapter, there's a couple more paragraphs from Balanda's point of view. We kind of jump back to Balanda as she returns to the archives. Hang tight. We're not skipping that. We're holding on to it because we're going to circle back to it and talk about it much more deeply. In our takeaway, we're going to dive into Balanda's reaction and the idea of participation mystique. But that's the chapter summary for chapter 27.

[Leo]

What a great set of chapters. What a great book. I can't believe people sleep so hard on chapter house Dune. I fucking am loving this book on this reread. It's so much fun.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So we have a takeaway. We're going to talk again, as you just hinted, about participation mystique. But we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're going to be talking about our key takeaway. And we've got some Ooey Gooey Spice morsels for you as well. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. So good, so good, so good. New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores. Now get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone. Martha Jacobs Free people.

[Abu]

How did I not know RAC has Adidas?

[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events.

[Abu]

For information on program outcomes, visit carrington.

[Leo]

Edu Sci.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks.

[Leo]

Hmm.

[Abu]

Let's continue our conversation today about these chapters and dive into our takeaway. Yeah, we're gonna be talking about participation mystique, a term that Balanda brings up at the end of chapter 27. So at the end of chapter 27, Balanda is returning to archives, and on the way, she checks in on the Kamai recording room to see what Duncan and Mirbella are up to.

[Leo]

Sure. I wonder what they're doing.

[Abu]

The watchmother who's at the Kamai Station has an absolutely hilarious response. Quote, in the shower again, gets boring after a while.

[Leo]

End quote. Incredible. I laughed. It's so funny.

[Abu]

And Balanda's response to this is pretty confusing if you don't know what this means. I mean, I read this section, these couple of paragraphs, completely lost until we dove into the research. Balanda simply states, quote, participation mystique, end quote. And then she stomps off.

[Leo]

Great. Love it.

[Abu]

I had never heard this phrase before and this part really confused me. And so we started to do some research. We dug into it, and in classic Frank fashion, our guy is playing on multiple levels of text and subtext here by bringing up participation mystique. So for our takeaway today, we're going to break down Balanda's reaction and break down what participation mystique is and the references that Frank Herbert is making here.

[Leo]

Yeah, so let's start off by defining what participation mystique is. And this goes back to Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung. Ever fucking heard of him? I hope you have. He's all over Frank's books.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Now, Carl Jung adopted the term participation mystique from the work of anthropologist Lucien Levi Brule, maybe. And here's Jung's definition of the term. Quote. Participation mystique is a term derived from Levi Brule. It denotes a peculiar kind of psychological connection with objects and consists in the fact that the subject cannot clearly distinguish himself from the object, but is bound to it by a direct relationship, which amounts to partial identity. End quote. Okay, now this, of course, does immediately sound like Duncan and Merbella, just fucking constantly. But we'll get back to that. Jung and Levi Brule explored this idea in the historical context, writing extensively about the primitive mind, right? Early man, early humanity, and how the further back in human history you go, the more human psychology is focused on the collective rather than the individual. Again, we don't have claws. We don't have fucking fire, breath or whatever the fuck nature has. We have collective action, we have planning, we have strategy. So early on, that's what we're looking at. That's what we're working with. Now, Jung's theory is not, you know, waterproof, watertight Whatever the saying is bulletproof. It has its critics. It has its problems. And in fact, Levi Brule even recanted his theories later in life when other anthropologists were like, fucking pause. No, that doesn't really make sense. And he's like, yeah, I guess not. So it's not. It's not. This isn't like a silver bullet that solves early human psychology. Yeah, but it's an interesting idea nevertheless.

[Abu]

Now, anthropological history aside, for our purposes, I wanted to sort of simplify the definition. Jung's definition is kind of wordy. So to put it more simply, participation mystique is essentially when you subconsciously entangle your identity with another person or another group or another belief system, ultimately compromising your own individuality. That is, in essence, what participation mystique means. And Blonda makes reference at the end of chapter 27 to an orgy, which is interesting because that is something we know the Fremen participated in as a shared consciousness exercise. Right. Letting go of their individuality and being a collective part of the siege. Paul Atreides himself participated in that participation mystique. The orgy as Energizer Honored Matres sexual knowledge was having an effect on the Bene Gesserit akin to that primitive submersion in shared ecstasy. End quote.

[Leo]

Sounds great. Love that.

[Abu]

Now, Belinda's reaction, of course, is interesting because the watch mother's bored hand wavy reaction to Duncan and Marbella getting it on in the shower again is a huge flag for someone like Belanda. She is seeing this desensitization in her fellow sisters to the dangerous Honored Madre sexual techniques.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

And that makes the sisterhood less wary of them. Right. It makes those techniques less scary if we're just, like, seeing them all the time. This normalization of something dangerous also doesn't just lower our own defenses, but it can even make the dangerous thing more attractive when it's more normalized. Blonda recognizes this quote. Just knowing this thing exists, how repellent, how dangerous, and yet how magnetic. End quote.

[Leo]

As Balanda opens up a private browsing tab on Chrome, she's like, yeah, I will look this up just a little bit. Yeah, it's interesting to see that kind of multifaceted appeal and kind of the threat that the Bene Gesserit are facing looking at the Onermatre.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

But as always, there are, of course, layers to Frank's usage of terminology. He's not just using it once, throwing it away. It's one of those things that he's constantly trying to be three steps ahead of us playing his 5D chess as an author, and especially coming from a character like Balanda.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

So zooming out a little bit, let's consider all of the critiques we've levied against the Sisterhood, this whole book, and heretics, their stagnation, their dogma, their like, belief systems, which have been so slow and rigid for so long, longer than any other institutions even fucking existed.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And we're kind of left with this idea. What is the Bene Gesserit order but a 20,000 year, 30, 40,000 year old practice in training sisters whose worldviews are shaped by participation mystique. Hello. By this idea of sisterhood above all, your own needs. No, no, no, Shuang Yu, you disagree. Shuang, you Bing, you disagree with the Reverend Mother Superior. Yeah. But hey, you're getting killed. You should help out the Bene Gesserit at the end of the day, like, that is your identity is the sisterhood and the sisterhood above all.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So to have Balanda, in many ways this very archetypical Bene Gesserit scoff at a Watch mother for showing signs of being desensitized to the practices while herself being unable to acknowledge or wrestle with her blind spots and her hypocrisy, even as fucking Duncan just called them out and said, hey, you've got a bunch of fucking blind spots and hypocrisy. Yeah. She's going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, it's fine.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And then the Watch Mother is like, yeah, I get bored of watching them have sex. And she goes, you. But no, Balanda, you Belinda. It's so ironic. And the fact that Balanda is blind to this, the fact that she is perpetrating this moment is, I think, the, the ultimate, like, I don't know, condemnation of the Bene Gesserit's ability to self assess.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I mean, we even talked about this with the idea of, like, indoctrinate the kids and your morality as soon as possible so that they can make their own moral decisions. But what does that even mean if you're the one who gave them the moral compass? And it's just the same hypocrisy over and over again from all these different angles.

[Abu]

Right, right, Absolutely. I mean, the Bene Gesserit Order is built on a foundation of participation mystique, our acolytes, their identities will become Bene Gesserit sisters and they will lose some of that individuality. And for Balanda to then be critical of the honored matre sexual practice and how it is a form of participation technique can subjugate someone is just

[Leo]

chef's kiss.

[Abu]

Juicy.

[Leo]

So good.

[Abu]

Now, there's another layer to this, of course, as well. Shianna comes into play here. We learn at the end of this chapter that Shanna is immune to honored madre sexual bonding.

[Leo]

Wild revelation.

[Abu]

That's why she's been able to work with the males that Duncan has been training. And we've gotten hints throughout this book. There were some seeds and heretics planted when we first met Shiana. And then in this book, early on, we got some hints about Shiana's rebelliousness. Right. She hasn't exactly fit into the mold of the Bene Gesserit. Maybe we got to her too late in life. We weren't able to build her morality how we see fit. Put another way, though, is that not just Shiana's immunity to participation mystique in the sisterhood?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

She holds on to her independence and doesn't fall in line and build her entire identity around the sisterhood that has adopted her. I mean, she's literally out here scheming with Duncan Idaho, as we know.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's true.

[Abu]

I found that really, really fascinating. Sort of this counterexample to participation mystique is Shiana, who is immune. And it's interesting that her immunity comes up in the same couple of paragraphs as Frank makes reference to participation mystique.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I also think this is just really great writing from Frank because it's really fun. Foreshadowing. Odrade is literally headed south as we speak to meet with Shiana. We know that Odrade intends to replace Tamlain on her inner council with Shianna. And so to start hinting at how Shiana is a rebel and immune to some things is fun. It heightens the tension for that inevitable Odre Tiana meeting that's coming up.

[Leo]

Yeah, I was just gonna say this could be just in a side chapter with Balanda and Duncan and the watch mother. But instead, Frank is additionally. Well, not instead. In addition to that, Frank is adding in more and more stakes for when we get to that Shianna. Oh, trade conversation, whatever that ends up being. It's very cool. It's like it's all interconnected. And we see that interconnectedness in the way he's writing it. So, so cool right now. Finally, there is one more layer to consider in Balanda's reaction to all of this. And the question here is, is she thinking about the participation mystique between Duncan and Myrbella? I kind of made that joke at the beginning of all of this. But that's kind of what we're seeing there, right? Like, Duncan Uno reverse carded Merbella, right? She was. She busted out the crazy sex moves, the. The whips, the little chains, the handcuffs. And then he was like, yeah, but what if you were the recipient? And she was like, whoa, this is incredible. I've never had this kind of experience before. But as much as that bonding moment that, like, becoming sexually entwined beings happened, it is also clear the way that these two characters think about each other in these recent chapters. I think even Marbella recently was thinking about how her love for Duncan is deeper. Is it a flaw, the way she's being taught by the Bene Gesserit? No, it's something more primordial and more powerful and something she should perhaps even protect. We see they have trouble identifying themselves outside of each other, and that's what we're talking about here. That's participation mystique. So after being bested by mentat Jiu Jitsu by Duncan, right? She comes head to head with them. She ends up on the mat, looking up at the ceiling. Her knife is somehow in her own stomach. Who was in the plan? Balanda is also here, maybe venting frustration about how much trust she can give this super dangerous but potentially incredibly helpful ghola. Right? Is Duncan subconsciously compromised in his analysis of the unermatre because of his attachment to Mirbella? He gave her great advice, and she was thinking, my God, I shouldn't worry about him. He's great. I was almost gonna kill him. That's terrible. But now maybe she's getting frustrated because she's recalling, oh, fuck. Yeah, he's very entwined with Mirbella. Maybe that compromises everything he's doing. Yes, he's powerful and formidable. How much can I actually trust what I take away from that conversation, right? And for Balanda, who is an archivist and a Mentat and a Bene Gesserit sister, she. She relies on this cold, calculated distance from a subject in order to study it objectively and rationally. Yeah, but Duncan clearly was not. This was not a confrontation that was cold and distant and rational. She was so wrapped up in her own emotions and her own feelings, she is struggling to do the things she knows she needs to do. In fact, we even get that little line where she says she struggled to even stay in mentat mode. Yeah, because she was so fucking pissed or so, like, angry or anxious. So we're really seeing her hit up against her own limits, but also recognizing that Duncan could be the end of the sisterhood if they're not careful with how they handle him.

[Abu]

Yeah. I think there's a valid read of her statement here where she says participation mystique and stomps off about it being about Duncan and Mirbella. You know, maybe it is a venting of frustration where she is like, oh, my God, like, this mentat just bested me. He seems very critical to our plans, and he's very valuable, but also, he's literally sleeping with the enemy. How can we trust anything he. Balanda is very much off axis at the end of this chapter. Right. You know, she is off her game. She's uncertain, as certain as she was with that knife at the beginning of this chapter. She's the polar opposite at the end. And I think it's interesting that her reaction is to bring up participation mystique, because I think it references a number of things. The Bene Gesserit irony of it all. Shianna's immunity to it, and how Shiana's wrapped up into that and how she's resistant to participation mystique. And ultimately how Duncan himself might be compromised because he's so wrapped up in participation mystique. With Mirbella, I think all of those layers might be at play and kind of whirling around Balanda's mind as she rushes off to the archives after this, like, intense experience with the ghola. All right, folks, that's our takeaway for today. Yeah, a bit of a psychology lesson on participation mystique and the many layers thematically that Frank is playing with here in this chapter. And with Balanda bringing it up at this particular moment. Let's take another quick break. Stick around, though. When we come back, I'm smelling something delicious in the oven. We got spice morsels. We got two yummy spice morsels for you today to wrap up today's episode. So don't go anywhere. We'll be back in just a minute.

[Leo]

This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen, you show up. You stay glued, invested, part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and series. Bendango loves fans. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break, and we're ready to do our spice morsels. And for our first spice morsel today, I hope you're hungry, dear listener, because What I'm about to put on your plate is hot. It's big. It could be at the center of a solar system. In fact, it is. It's a sun. It's a star.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

It's a G3 sun. And we're going to be talking about the Kardashev scale. In today's reading, Duncan mentions the idea of a no planet, a whole planet cloaked by no ship technology. And Belanda retorts dryly that quote, it would require the entire output of a G3 sun to shield any halfway livable planet. End quote. You know, obviously that's what I thought too, when he said that, and that caught our attention. And as always, we were like, what the. What the fuck actually does that mean? And we wanted to look into what a G3 sun even is. So here is too much information that you are just going to be burdened with forever. Okay, buckle up. First. By the early 20th century, science had settled somewhat on the Harvard classification system of stars, within which stars get letters based on their spectral characteristics, the light that they emit, the heat, things like that. Now, the letters in the system are not all 26. We've got O, B, A, F, G, K and M. G class stars are yellow mostly. Most of them are yellow in color. Opposed to, for instance, O class stars, which are blue, they burn blue. And I think like M are like reddish orange or orangish red. Right. Now the three in G3, so that's a G sun or a G star. The three could be related to the spectral type within the Yerkes Atlas system, introduced in 1953. I will be quizzing you all on these details.

[Abu]

Are you taking notes? Write this down.

[Leo]

Write it down. Yerks. Guess how it's spelled. You're going to be wrong. G3 star would be just a tiny bit smaller and dimmer than our own sun. So our sun is a G2V star. G3V star, or a G3 sun, like Blonda says would be a little smaller, just a tiny bit smaller than our sun, but yellow still. That's what she means probably when she says a G3 sun. What does she mean? By capturing all of the energy of that sun leads us to the Kardashev scale. And this is a concept that exists in a lot of sci fi, but this was introduced by Nikolai Kardashev in 1964. And this system, the Kardashev scale, classifies civilizations by what percentage of the energy in their systems they're able to harness. So a Class 1 civilization can harness all of the power of their planet. A Class 2 civilization, a Type 2 civilization would be one that, quote, can directly consume a star's energy, all of the output of that star. And in popular science fiction, this is often done with either a Dyson sphere or a Dyson swarm, which is basically like Dyson sphere. Was the idea of like this, you're building something around the sun to capture all the energy. But everyone, even science fiction authors are like, yeah, yeah, you couldn't build a solid sphere. So another term that is often used is a swarm, Dyson swarm, which is like a series of satellites that kind of all orbit the sun at a certain distance and capture that energy.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So you'll see the two terms used frequently in science communication. And even like Hank green in a YouTube video a few days ago was talking about Dyson swarms. It's just, it's around. So let's bring it back to Dune. I'm down the rabbit hole, let's climb back out. Balanda's tone seems to indicate that humanity, by the time that we're talking about, hasn't yet reached Even the type 2 classification in the Kardashev scale, at least outside of whatever's happening out in the scattering. Are there Dyson swarms out in the scattering? Who knows? Certainly not Belinda. She's like, that would be fucking ridiculous, Duncan. You sound like an idiot right now. And he's like, well, anything's possible in the scattering. She's like, fuck you. It's true. But ultimately, maybe it's for the best. Imagine you built a Dyson sphere. Imagine, dear listener, that you were like, I'm going to cloak this whole fucking planet. You build a Dyson swarm, you build a Dyson sphere, you cloak your entire fucking planet in no ship technology. My God, incredible achievement. Yeah, and then a fucking nine year old Tag Gola comes along and just sees your planet. Bullshit. Wasted time, wasted energy. That's what Balanda meant when she said a G3. Son. Now you know. OK, now you know.

[Abu]

Now you know. It'll be on the test. Take notes. All right, our second morsel today. To wrap up today's episode, folks, let's talk about Indian summer. During the drive south, Odrade muses about the changes in the weather patterns on Chapterhouse and makes references to this exact term. A field advisor had dredged up the ancient term Indian summer for a report illustrated by projections of an orchard in full blossom being assaulted by snow. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

Naturally, we are not farmers, we are podcasters and city dwellers.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

And so we were instantly curious what this term actually meant and if it was a real term. Luckily, the Old Farmer's Almanac exists, folks. So here's what we learned in our research.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

According to the Old Farmer's Almanac, there are a number of criteria for the weather phenomenon called Indian summer. Also less problematically called St. Martin's summer or second summer. Here are the criteria you have to meet in order to be called a second summer.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

One, it has to be a period of abnormally warm weather in late autumn between November 11th and November 20th. You got a small window.

[Leo]

Okay, that's a nine day window. That's crazy.

[Abu]

It's a nine day window. Two, it has to occur after at least one killing frost, but before the first snowfall of the year, of course.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Criteria number three is that in addition to the warm temperatures, the atmosphere also has to be hazy or smoky with no wind and clear chilly nights. Once you meet all of these criteria, then, folks, it's second summer for nine days.

[Leo]

Who are these fucking pedantic farmers? Like, oh, second summer. And you're like, no, no, no, it's not hazy. And it snowed three towns over two days ago, you fucking idiot. Who are these farmers? That's crazy.

[Abu]

Incredible. I for one, did not know there were so many goddamn rules about the weather. But apparently there are, according to the almanac. Okay, so let's. Let's dig into a little bit of the history here. The origins of the term are unclear, but it dates back as far as 1778, where a French American farmer defined the term in his published letters. And there's a couple of theories, unverified theories, as to why American settlers began calling it Indian Summer. Some theories say that it comes from the Narragansett people who believed the weather conditions were caused by the Great Spirit. Other theories suggest that Native Americans would use this period to increase their winter stores before the storms hit. You know, like get a little bit of extra harvesting done before you call it for the season, which would make this a very important sort of nine day, ish period at the end of the year before winter. And American settlers might have learned about this important period of the year from Native Americans. And maybe that's why they just started calling it Indian Summer, because the natives taught them about this period. Unverified theories. We don't know for sure where exactly the term came from or why folks started calling it that, but those are a couple of theories out there.

[Leo]

Okay?

[Abu]

Now you might be wondering, dear listener, wait a second. Have I lived through a second summer? Myself between the very specific dates of November 11th to November 20th. And the answer is yes, we've all lived through second summers because it's not that rare. According to Britannica, second summers may occur several times in some years or not at all in other years, and usually for about a week. Ish. Based on some quick Googling that I did, it looks like the last second summer that we had here in the United States was actually in October 2022, which doesn't make sense because the criteria says it has to be in November. But I was going to say, based on the articles that I read, people called that particular weather pattern in October 2022 a second summer.

[Leo]

Oh, and I bet it made some farmers so goddamn angry. They were like, you're wrong. Stop writing.

[Abu]

You know, some farmer was so angry,

[Leo]

he's like, it's not through his field crushing tomatoes. It's not the nine days. God damn it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

Yeah, this criteria seem, like, pretty loose to me. I think, like, I think as long as it's, like, abnormally warm before winter hits.

[Leo]

Yeah, it turned cold, and now it's hot again. That's its second summer. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. Basically, I think that's the gist is like, it was cold, there was a frost, but then it's hot again, and then it's going to snow later. That period in between where it's hot again. Second summer. And now.

[Leo]

You know, folks, you know, you could levy a lot of complaints about our show here on GOM Jabbar, but you could never say that we stick to one scale. Because now, dear listener, you can tell us more about the season you're experiencing and also the star that shining down on you.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Big and small. We're covering it all, folks.

[Abu]

You know, we're going to be keeping an eye on those weather patterns come the fall. Okay, wait, we experience a second summer?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In 2026.

[Leo]

I'm going to. I'll be one of the first.

[Abu]

We're throwing a fucking party.

[Leo]

Throwing a second summer party. But to be clear, it's not the second party in summer. It's the second summer party. It's. We got to work on the branding. But that's the. That's the plan. All right, so that is our episode, dear Listener, but like every book club episode, we do have some assigned reading. So before the next episode, make sure you've read the next three chapters, chapters 28 through 30, or up through the chapter, if your version's a little different than ours, up through the chapter that ends on the sentence quote, who won this battle? Oh, oh. Wondered. End quote. Oh shit, there's a battle. My God, she is o' draid talking

[Abu]

about the Paul Thomas Anderson hit film One battle after another or something else.

[Leo]

Or did she arm wrestle Shiana? We'll have to find off the greed and find out. Out. That's right.

[Abu]

I'm excited to find out. Same. Okay folks, before we let you go, couple of final reminders. As always before we say goodbye. The two best ways to support this show is of course number one, to become a monthly Patreon supporter which gets you ad free episodes, early access to book clubs, access to the discord community where folks are always nerding out. It's a great time. Consider becoming a patron supporter. The second best way to support this show is is to check out the really gorgeous dune merch that we have on our merch store Gomjabar shop. The Patreon link, the merch link, all a bunch of other useful links are all in the show notes below. So please check that out and consider supporting the show so that we can continue doing the God Emperor's good works.

[Leo]

And indeed we love to hear from you if you remember an Indian summer or a second summer if you have strong feelings about the Kardashev scale or other things. Have you Mystique, entwined yourself with whatever? Tell us gomjabarpodcastmail.com is our email address. We want to hear what your subconscious identity is entrapped within. Also show us pictures of your pets.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com is our email address and we will subconsciously entwine ourselves with trying to respond a little bit faster. That's our promise to you. We'll try. No promises, no guarantees. It's a nine day window that we respond every year.

[Abu]

You know what would be really funny, Leo, is if we actually released a pop quiz to our patrons.

[Leo]

Oh, that would be good. The problem is I would also fail the pop quiz.

[Abu]

Right. We'd have to like go back and reference all of our old scripts actually fact check ourselves I guess.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. Just all of the morsel like it's a morsel quiz. We're just say all of the we've thrown at you during our research whistled past the graveyard. What does that mean? Explain it. What year was it introduced by which Scottish poet?

[Abu]

It's like I don't know, write, write a one page double space essay on participation. Mystique. I think our patrons would nail it actually.

[Leo]

Well friends, there is no real ending it's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.

[Abu]

Hey, sorry to interrupt your playlist, but real quick.

[Leo]

This might be better than music.

[Abu]

We're talking free stuff.

[Leo]

Yep, actually free.

[Abu]

Just download TikTok search/free, pick items you want, share the link and watch the price drop to zero. Your song will be waiting.

[Leo]

Your free Items won't open TikTok and start slashing now.

[Abu]

Ever since I started serving cut water

[Leo]

canned cocktails to my guests. Hey. Hi. How are you? Yeah, going through. I've gone from host to hero. Thanks to Cutwater, I can make real, perfectly mix cocktails in seconds. It's as simple as garnishing a glass, cracking my can of cut water open and pouring it over ice. Cut water. Real cocktails, perfectly mixed. Copyright 2025 Cut Water Spirits, San Diego, CA Enjoy responsibly.