Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 11)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 11) Summary

Release Date: April 4, 2025

Hosts: Abu and Leo
Duration: Approximately 95 minutes

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo delve into the eleventh part of their book club series on Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune. As they navigate through the complexities of the storyline, the hosts offer insightful analysis, humorous banter, and critical perspectives, making the episode both informative and entertaining for longtime fans and newcomers alike.

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Chapter Summaries

Chapters 31 and 32: Action and Intrigue

• Chapter 31 Highlights:

  • Characters Involved: Duncan Idaho, Teg, Lucilla, Bruce Moholeb.

  • Plot Points: The group cautiously emerges from the Harkonnen no-globe during a tense game night. As they navigate the cold winter night to meet with Bruce Moholeb, explosions and battles erupt around them. Teg showcases his formidable skills by using the Voice (a Bene Gesserit technique) to command and manipulate in battle.

  • Notable Quote:

    • Abu [02:01]: "We have 200 pages more, but, yeah, yeah, all things considered, we're over the halfway hump and approaching the third act."
    • Leo [08:35]: "What makes Teg such a formidable person is that the Voice is not some magical thing. It is an ability."

• Chapter 32 Highlights:

  • Characters Involved: Odrade, Waff, Serapha.

  • Plot Points: The focus shifts to Odrade's negotiations with Waff, a Tleilaxu Master of Masters. Through strategic use of language and subtle manipulation, Odrade attempts to forge an alliance to counter the Honored Matres. She reveals the Bene Gesserit's secret plans involving the Spawn of Duncan Idaho and Shiana, aiming to control spice distribution across the universe.

  • Notable Quotes:

    • Leo [15:04]: "Frank writing Zensunni stuff is cool."
    • Abu [16:17]: "It would play right into the hands of our true enemy, the people from the scattering, the lost ones, the honored Matres."

Final Chapters: Serapha and the Scattering

• Character Focus: Serapha, a mysterious woman from the Scattering.

• Plot Developments: Lucilla and Duncan encounter Serapha, who proves to be a formidable face dancer tasked with hunting Honored Matres. The interaction reveals deep connections between the Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu, and the enigmatic Lost Ones returning from the Scattering.

  • Notable Quotes:
    • Serapha [54:49]: "I was trained only to kill them. That is my only function and purpose."
    • Abu [60:03]: "We have a certain number of people. If one person jogs by you, you're like, runner. If it's a thousand people, you go, what are they running from?"

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. The Power of the Voice:

   • Abu and Leo discuss Teg's mastery of the Voice, emphasizing that it's a trained ability rather than a supernatural power. This technique underscores Teg's strategic prowess on the battlefield.
     • Leo [08:35]: "Frank has said in so many ways, the voice is an ability... It's not sorcery."

2. Odrade’s Negotiation Tactics:

   • Odrade employs strategic language shifts and psychological manipulation to secure Waff's trust, showcasing the Bene Gesserit's intricate planning and adaptability.
     • Abu [21:29]: "She knows he is skeptical that Odrade is high enough on the food chain to be making negotiation deals."

3. Introduction of Serapha:

   • The hosts delve into the enigmatic character of Serapha, exploring her dual identity as a face dancer and a potential Bene Gesserit offshoot. This revelation adds layers to the political landscape of the Dune universe.
     • Leo [53:25]: "What's happening? Yeah, how many of us? It could make fetch happen."

4. Cultural Clashes from the Scattering:

   • The return of diverse factions from the Scattering introduces complex cultural and religious dynamics, reflecting Frank Herbert's exploration of East vs. West philosophies.
     • Abu [60:04]: "Frank is potentially exploring that tension between east and west, between cultures that share a common ancestor but have diverged dramatically."

5. Sex as a Tool of Power:

   • A significant portion of the discussion centers around the portrayal of sex in Heretics of Dune, critiquing its use as a narrative device to represent control and power dynamics.
     • Leo [75:27]: "Frank is actually using these tools intentionally, and it's on us as the reader to examine them critically and wonder why."

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Takeaways

1. Serapha's Dual Role:

   • Abu and Leo highlight Serapha’s complex identity, suggesting she embodies both Bene Gesserit training and Tleilaxu face dancer abilities, making her a pivotal character in the unfolding conflict.
     • Abu [56:58]: "Serapha's an utterly confounding character."

2. Late Revelations and Pacing:

   • The hosts express mixed feelings about the timing of major revelations, with some feeling it hampers the story's pacing and stakes.
     • Abu [83:35]: "Serapha has raised a lot of questions, not only about her as a character, but about this book as well."

3. Cultural and Religious Exploration:

   • Frank Herbert's integration of varied cultural and religious elements provides a rich tapestry for political and societal commentary, though not all listeners may resonate with these depictions.
     • Leo [63:55]: "Frank is using these tools intentionally, and it's on us as the reader to examine them critically and wonder why."

4. Critique of Sex Portrayal:

   • Both hosts critique the explicit and strategic use of sex in the narrative, questioning its necessity and impact on the story’s depth.
     • Abu [78:31]: "It feels somewhat unnecessary and then have to sleep with brismoli because they could catch you."

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Spice Morsel: Dune, Star Wars, and C3PO

In a humorous segment titled "Dune, Star Wars, and C3PO," the hosts draw parallels between Frank Herbert’s universe and George Lucas's Star Wars. They focus on the reference to the "palingitam trees" and the mention of "3PO," speculating it’s a playful jab at C3PO from Star Wars. Abu cites Herbert’s frustrations with allegations of Dune being plagiarized by Star Wars, highlighting Frank's awareness and subtle disdain evident in his writing.

• Notable Quote:
  • Leo [91:09]: "The shade, yeah. Because there was also an element of, like, David Lynch's movie in 84 had some, like, weird production things."

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Conclusion

Abu and Leo wrap up the episode by inviting listeners to participate in an upcoming mailbag episode, encouraging them to submit questions and theories. They also remind fans to support the podcast through Patreon and merchandise purchases.

• Closing Remarks:
  • Leo [94:06]: "Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Abu [02:01]: "We have 200 pages more, but, yeah, yeah, all things considered, we're over the halfway hump and approaching the third act."
• Leo [08:35]: "Frank has said in so many ways, the voice is an ability... It's not sorcery."
• Abu [16:17]: "It would play right into the hands of our true enemy, the people from the scattering, the lost ones, the honored Matres."
• Serapha [54:49]: "I was trained only to kill them. That is my only function and purpose."
• Abu [60:04]: "Frank is potentially exploring that tension between east and west, between cultures that share a common ancestor but have diverged dramatically."
• Leo [75:27]: "Frank is actually using these tools intentionally, and it's on us as the reader to examine them critically and wonder why."
• Abu [83:35]: "Serapha has raised a lot of questions, not only about her as a character, but about this book as well."
• Leo [91:09]: "The shade, yeah. Because there was also an element of, like, David Lynch's movie in 84 had some, like, weird production things."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast offers a deep and multifaceted exploration of Heretics of Dune, blending detailed analysis with candid critique. Abu and Leo provide listeners with a thorough understanding of the book's intricate plotlines and thematic elements while fostering a space for critical reflection on the portrayal of power, culture, and sexuality within the Dune universe.

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For more insightful discussions and Dune lore, subscribe to Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast on your favorite podcast platform and join the conversation on Discord or via email at gongjabbarpodcastmail.com.

Transcript

[Leo]

I can control genital temperature. I know. And can arouse the 51 explanation points.

[Abu]

51?

[Leo]

But there are only 51. And the research hours number at least 2008. Furthermore, in combination with the 205 deep dive conversations.

[Abu]

205?

[Leo]

Surely you don't mean more. Actually, if you count spice, mortgage morsels and other asides, I am a podcaster, which means I have mastered the 300 scripts of orgasmic amplification.

[Abu]

Are we at 300 episodes yet? Have we mastered.

[Leo]

We have not. We're on our way. We're on the to do list. We'll get there, listeners. I keep kicking it down the line. I'm like, is today the day I master the orgasmic amplifications?

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of. Of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo. And folks, yeah.

[Abu]

We are continuing our deep dive book club style coverage of heretics of Dune. My goodness, I didn't believe I'd finally say this, but the end is in sight.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, we're getting there. We have 200 pages more, but, yeah, yeah, all things considered, we're over the.

[Abu]

Halfway hump and, you know, approaching the third act.

[Leo]

And I will say it's feeling like it's kicking up, you know, dependencies, keylogs. I feel like the shit's hitting the fan.

[Abu]

Yeah. Today's chapters in particular maybe are just making me feel like that, you know, like momentum. Things are happening.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But before we get into today's chapters and get ahead of ourselves, as always, Leo, let's take care of some housekeeping.

[Leo]

Let's do it.

[Abu]

Starting with our spoiler warning. As usual, today's episode will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we have covered thus far. So as long as you are up to date with the reading, you're good to go.

[Leo]

Indeed you are. And of course, a huge giant. Decoys upon decoys. Plans within plans. Kwisatz Haderach level. Shout out to our patrons, Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, and CR Spruill. Woo. Folks, we would arrange for, like, what Was it like? 200 hornethopters, 100 ground cars, body doubles. We'd drag you out of the cold Harkonnen night to the warm auspices of a tree. The tree that we've hollowed out and are using as our just man cave. We drag you in podcast studio.

[Abu]

The tree that we're using for our.

[Leo]

Actually, we. Zoom out. It's just your background. In my. It's just one tree.

[Abu]

One tree.

[Leo]

And you'd all be welcome. Your generosity makes what we do possible. And of course, all of our patrons, past, current, present, and future, make what we do possible. So thank you. Thank you a thousand times thank you.

[Abu]

Thank you indeed. Okay, housekeeping out of the way. Y'all know the drill for these book club episodes. We're gonna begin. Did I. With a. I can't keep that up. We're gonna begin today with a summary of today's chapters. Then we're gonna dive into a nice big takeaway. And finally, we're gonna wrap up with one of the yummiest morsels I think we've had in a while. I hope you're hungry.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So before we get into today's chapters, let's take a quick breather, but don't go anywhere. Dear listener, we will be right back.

[Sponsor]

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[Leo]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock.

[Sponsor]

It's tax season and we're all a.

[Leo]

Bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready for some action packed chapters. God. The wild ride today begins in chapter 31 with everyone's favorite sitcom cast. We've got Duncan, Teg and Lucilla fresh out of season two where, you know, Teg pulls the gun on her. And they are cautiously. It is game night. It is game time. They are emerging from the Harkonnen no globe. And they're heading off into the cold winter night to meet up with Bruce. Molly Tag is worried about the plan. They don't really have a plan B if this fails. Kind of not really sure what's going to happen. But he trusts Brismoli. He knows Brismoli is the sort of person they can rely on. And plus, looking around, each of them has like 19 weapons. He's like, oh, I've got these two giant rifles. Duncan's got rifles. We've got little plasma pistols. There's a hilarious quip about Lucilla, who's like, Lucilla's like, all we need, a spiny Jesuit are our hands.

[Abu]

Right? She's got knives hidden in her boots.

[Leo]

And shit, you know, he's like, okay, cool, so you're just full of shit then. So you're just lying. Very cool. And speaking of Lucilla, Duncan notices that Lucilla just doesn't seem to be bothered by the cold. Yeah, he sort of thinks to himself, oh, this must be one of those Bene Gesserit tricks. And he, like us, thinks back on the many, many, many tricks that the Bene Gesserit have and realizes he never really trusted the Bene Gesserit, not even Jessica. Which, wow. At first I was like, wow, that's profound. And then I realized, oh, he's the one that got fucking blackout drunk on spice beer and you're a traitor.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's in line with his character for sure. I will say this trick in particular seems like one of the more useful ones that the Bene Gesserit have. Yeah, you get to just adjust your body temperature.

[Leo]

That's huge.

[Abu]

You never have to worry about what temperature it is outside. You are a comfortable 72 or whatever.

[Leo]

You know, she can shiver on command. She's just, just like so obviously cold. But that's how, that's how it works.

[Abu]

So it works amazing. Gotta love it.

[Leo]

This is not meant to be a repeat of their last nighttime stroll, which was quiet and like days long. They are barely out of the cave when multiple explosions and thunderous, you know, far off battles kick up. No ships are appearing and they are swooping overhead and they are hearing battles erupting all around them. Wild, something's happening. Now. Teg hears Brismoli call out and says, basically, Lucilla, keep the Gola safe. Go, go, go, go. I'm going to distract. He sees from the tree line down a hill, it seems some face dancers who are coming up.

[Abu]

Yeah, right.

[Leo]

So he decides the only way I can do this is, is by potentially sacrificing myself. I'll stay back. Go, go, go. And in that moment, he uses basically the voice. Oh, my God, this was so cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And it really, it strikes home that like, what makes Teg such a formidable person. Because Frank has said in so many ways, the voice is not some magical thing. It is an ability. Vocal control is the ability that they train up through Prana Bindu. But it's not sorcery. It's not witchcraft. And he said in multiple interviews, yeah, we all use the voice, right? We all know what the voice is. It's been used on us. We've been used in on other people. I imagine a commander like Teg Bashar, like Tag in the battlefield, has something akin to the Voice with his men. He needs you to get down. He doesn't want you to ask questions. He's going to tell you to get down in a way that you're like, I'm getting down. I don't know what. I don't know what's happening. I'm on the ground.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. A voice of command on a battlefield. Right?

[Leo]

This is absolutely.

[Abu]

If the voice is like a situational technique that you use to manipulate someone, once you register them and know them well enough, what else does Tag know better than people on a battlefield and how to command them?

[Leo]

Yeah, that.

[Abu]

That is one thing that this guy has locked in over his career. And we see that in action. And Lucilla is actually taken back by it. She's like, oh, my gosh. Did he just use the Voice on Duncan?

[Leo]

Capital T, capital V. What?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That's crazy.

[Abu]

And I will say again, we have now talked about this a number of times over the course of this book club, but it speaks to this idea that Tag is practically equal with a reverend mother. And because of some of his illegal training via his heretic mother, he even has some of their abilities or is able to pierce some of their abilities in a way that no one else can. He is very unique and special in this way.

[Leo]

It's so cool. I love that. I love this little moment.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

And we then see. So Tag holds off this line of advancing face dancers all by himself. We see some of his on the field in the trenches brilliance as he strategically fights them off. Right. He's timing out. How long is it going to take them to get from where they are to where I am? I'm going to do this type of thing. I'm going to faint. Running out of ammo jokes on you idiots. I don't. I have tons more ammo, you know, and does that multiple times. He even identifies the high pitched voices of the Tleilaxu masters who are like, trying to stay away from the fight and manages to like, like blindly shoot.

[Abu]

Them and hit them.

[Leo]

Yeah. Dudes out here like sniping commanders and the intelligence on the field. It's so awesome.

[Abu]

I do not want to play COD against Tig.

[Leo]

His nuts. And he does, to be fair, he does note that there's no return fire against him. They're not fighting back right now because they are very clearly trying to take them alive. And obviously for the Tleilaxu face dancers, they're expendable. You could. You can kill a million of them. We don't care. They're just.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

They're mules. We don't. We don't really care. Now the chapter ends abruptly. Teg is trying to kind of remain unpredictable. Running through the night, doing these kind of burst attacks. He runs into a stun gun kind of blast to the face. Straight to the. Straight to the face. So he fades into unconsciousness. He has been captured, he has been taken. And that is where the chapter ends.

[Abu]

Right. I liked his closing thought as he's sort of passing out where he's like, they too can be unpredictable. You know, my enemies also managed to dupe me.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In the way, you know, in a similar way that I'm trying to dupe them. So it's. I thought that was kind of a funny and poignant thought at the end. Miles Tag is not the only one that can act unpredictably in battle.

[Leo]

Real recognizes real. It's very. It's very. You bought well Atreides.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

That whole. It's like, you know, he's acknowledging. He's like, okay, wow, nice. Well played.

[Abu]

So I hope he's okay.

[Leo]

Tbd. Six foot ten.

[Abu]

I imagine a stun gun to the face does not feel good.

[Leo]

No.

[Abu]

No matter. No matter how six, ten and hot.

[Leo]

You may, you'd think he's tall enough to get out of it, but no.

[Abu]

No. Okay, let's move on to chapter 32. We take a break from the high octane action for a bit and return to the Bene Gesserit. Keep in Keen. As Odraid is looking out a window at the courtyard where Shiana is currently in the middle of a lesson with one of her hand picked tutors. Odrade is mulling over her recent discoveries at Sietch Tibur, what it all means. It's clear to that Leto's words have deeply affected Odrade.

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah.

[Abu]

They are changing her mindset in real time. And we witness that even throughout this chapter. Meanwhile, as she is just lazily staring out this window, Waff is standing behind her with a couple of guards just simmering. My guy is, like, vibrating with anxiety.

[Leo]

Little. Little, like dachshund or something. Just, like, shaking or. No, like whippets. What are those, like, tiny? Yeah, like a whippet. He's just, like, shivering and shaking. Full of rage. Little Chihuahua, full of rage.

[Abu]

And O'Draid, of course, is allowing this to happen. She drags this meeting out so long before finally turning around and beginning to speak with Waff on purpose. She knows he is tense and worried about their tenuous alliance right now. He's starting to regret. Like, maybe I should not have worked with Odrade. Have I already given up too much information to the sisterhood? How do I back out of this, you know? He's feeling his back against the wall, and Odrade is letting him sweat just a little bit longer. Just long enough. Finally, though, she decides it's time. She turns around. She begins speaking to Waff as he nears his breaking point. And she hits him with some classic zensu ni to remind him, hey, we're part of the great belief, you and I. She says, quote, man is but a pebble dropped in a pool. And if man is but a pebble, then all his works can be no more. End quote.

[Leo]

That does go pretty hard. I love.

[Abu]

I do love that, actually.

[Leo]

Like, Frank writing Zen Sunni stuff is cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I think that would be something I'd ask from him. Like, if he were still alive, I'd be like, hey, can you just write all of your Zen Sunni stuff down in a book? Like, I know that he's basically wholesale lifting this from actual, like, Eastern philosophies and religions, but within the context of Dune, a lot of this is very neat. It's cool to see.

[Abu]

I agree. I agree. This quote in particular resonated with me, too. Now, of course, as I stated, Hwaf is distrustful. In this moment, he's once more on the defensive with the sisterhood with Odrade. He's beginning to regret that alliance. He's like, these sisters, man. I'm so confused. They keep saying Zensuni things like this to me. Yeah, but are they Pawinda or are they Dancer Man? Like, what's going on? Are they dancer? Do I. Do I trust them or do I not? He's very conflicted.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so Odrade and Waff sit down. They discuss what an outright war between the Bene Gesserit and Bene Tilax would mean. And O'Draid lays out the case very clearly. She says, that would be literally the worst outcome right now. For both of us.

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah.

[Abu]

And it would play right into the hands of our true enemy, my guy. Those people from the scattering, the lost ones, the honored Matres. Ever heard of them?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If you and I get into beef right now, the honored Matres swoop in and wipe both of us out. Neither of us want that. We cannot get into open conflict with each other. We need to find another path forward, whatever that may be.

[Leo]

This is such a classic strategy. And I understand why it doesn't immediately work with him. Because again, it's a. It's a tale as old as time. You redefine other. You say, no, no, we're on a team and we're against that thing out there.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So I understand why it doesn't work immediately, but I also think that's, like, the brilliance of her switching to Islam yet. Right. Because she's really going, no, no, no. Let's. Let's talk this out in a language you understand.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So cool.

[Abu]

Absolutely. And in fact, one of the reasons this very valid argument about the Honored Matres doesn't sway WAF right away is because he is skeptical that Odrade is high up enough on the food chain to be making negotiation deals with him, the Master of Masters. Right?

[Leo]

I mean, should Terrazzo be the one.

[Abu]

Here talking to me about this? Are you even qualified to be inking out some sort of, like, NATO agreement between the Bene Gesserit and the Benny Tlalaks? And in a really badass moment, like one of the reasons Odrada is such a cool character, she simply says, yeah, I am. What about it?

[Leo]

Yeah. Knowing.

[Abu]

Knowing fully that technically she's not well.

[Leo]

But also recognizing if she says, yes, we have to do this, I'm going to give you leverage over us. I'm going to do all of this. Then Taraza's got no fucking alternative. So she's like, by saying, yes, I do, I have taken that choice. I have made the choice to be in Shiraza's shoes, basically. He doesn't need to know that she's being this kind of defiant person. He need not know that. But, yeah, this was a huge moment. I thought this was so fun. And both.

[Abu]

It was so cool. You gotta love Odrade. Now, as a part of the negotiations, now that we've established, yeah, man, I'm here to sign a deal, and I'm authorized to do it. Let's talk. Let's ink out this deal as part of these negotiations. Odrade says, okay, Waf, I understand you're nervous because you're afraid you've given us too much and we haven't reciprocated.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So here we go. I'm going to tell you something that reveals much about the sisterhood. We know, for example, that you have placed face dancers in the upper echelons of Ixian and fish speaker society within the ruling cat class, within the government, and that you control them. They're practically your puppets. She also reveals that this is huge. The Bene Gesserit have plans with the worms. That plan is, to quote, plant the worms of the Prophet on uncounted planets of the Scattering. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Take them off of Arrakis and move them somewhere else. That's big. That's actually so top secret that the guards standing nearby kind of smirk at Odrade. Cause they're like, oh, good bluff. Good bluff, Odrade.

[Leo]

That's a good bluff. Odrade's like, they thought, not a lot, buddy. I thought that was the most incredible thing. Like the fact that she just outright says it and she and Waff are talking and they're kind of giving each other everything, but. Which is not exactly true from her perspective, but still, the fact that she just says this unbelievable secret, something that's so protected that these two Bene Gesserit guards are like, wouldn't that be crazy? Lol.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Lmao. I'm gonna. We're gonna joke about this later. It's wild. It's wild. And also genuinely a bombshell for us as well. Like what your plan is to plant the worms. And haven't you been trying this since literally 4,000 years ago? 5,000 years ago? What's different? What's changed? And we'll get to it. Very, very cool. What a crazy moment.

[Abu]

It's very cool. Yeah. It shows us Odrade's tactfulness. Here she is mixing beluffs with hard truths, with Zensunni, with Islamia. She is playing Waf on so many different levels in a way where it's fun because we as the reader, can kind of parse what is truth and what is lie. Waf is utterly either baffled and really falls under oh, drade spell here, as we'll see shortly. Continuing with the chapter, Wof is uncomfortable, in fact, with these guards. He's like, well, you know, how are we going to negotiate when these two are practically holding guns to my head?

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And so she sends them away. She's like, fine, just you and me, one on one. Now we're on even footing. And as you mentioned earlier, she suddenly switches to speaking in Islamiat, which makes him even more comfortable. She is slowly picking away at his defenses to more malleable, to negotiation. And it works.

[Leo]

It works. And I also wanted to point out, because I have the chapter open and this really blew me away. So she says with the change of language, Waff's entire personality, his whole manner changed. He was performing exactly as expected. None of his doubts had been reinforced in this tongue is the quote. So what I started thinking about is so she was purposefully giving him little reasons to doubt in Gaelic or whatever language they were speaking. She was kind of like keeping him on the fence, making sure he never was too convinced of her being on their side. That's the whole waiting game she was playing earlier. Let him really think about it. Can I be trusted? I don't know.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And now at this critical moment where I need his buy in, we have this fallback tool, a new language we can switch into, his language that I know he's going to be more comfortable in, and one in which I haven't set any seeds of doubt. So he can be far more comfortable. Like, it can be a night and day switch where suddenly we're on the same team in a way that's really, like, easy for him to buy into. It's.

[Abu]

That's such a great observation, Leo.

[Leo]

It's so sick. It's so cool. It also really resonated with me because I do have friends in different countries and it's fascinating to see how people speak in their native language. And, you know, you'll know this if you have friends in other countries. Like, you talk to them in their shared language that you have. For me, that's English. And you see their personality come through the filter of the language. And that's, that's, it's cool. It's beautiful. It's, it's, it's amazing. And thank you to all of my friends who've gone through the process of learning English so that we can be friends. But then watching people speak to each other in their native tongues, it's just so I get this moment and I understand why Waaf is so different. His whole manner changes when he's speaking in Islamia.

[Abu]

Oh, totally. It's a form of code switching. It's a form of cultural comfort that Odrade is offering him. And you're absolutely correct that it is strategic.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

She's offering him doubts and discomfort in one language and nothing but comfort and quote, unquote, truth in the other, as far as Waff is concerned. And it's that contrast that pushes him to do exactly what she needs him to. Again, it's the brilliance of Bene Gesserit planning and manipulation that we get to see play out in these conversations. And Frank does it so, so well in these chapters where, again, nothing really is happening. Two people are sitting and talking, but so much is happening.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's language as a tool. And we've talked about how language is kind of a specialty of the Bene Gesserit, but we're also seeing the dimensions of how do you use language as bargaining chips? And that's just something I'd never considered before. It's like an arena of strategy that I just hadn't even. I don't think I've seen anyone do this in all of the books I've read. So it's just very cool. It's a very novel idea. Even though this book is 40 years old at this point. 50 years old.

[Abu]

Yeah. Okay. Well, continuing with our negotiations here, WAF is now very comfortable. He lets down his guard. He even blurts out how the Honored Matres rule with sex, how sex is one of their primary weapons information. If you'll recall, back in the Taraza negotiation, at the start of the book, he was adamant about keeping secret. He's like, we'll tell these Bene Gesserit anything they want. Except the sex stuff.

[Leo]

Yeah, except for the sex.

[Abu]

We need to hold that in our pocket as a trump card just in case. But here again, he has let his guard down so much that he openly lets it slip. O'Drade, hilariously, is completely unfazed. She's like, yeah, we are kind of pretty much aware of the sex stuff already. We can actually do the sex stuff too, by the way. We just choose not to. And, in fact, the Honored Madres leaning into the sex as control is going to be their downfall. They are too power hungry and ambitious, and they are taking control in too aggressive of a way that we know not to, because we're much more subtle and mischievous as the sisterhood. Yeah. She says, quote, they are holding the reins in their own hands. As the power grows, their control of it must grow. The thing will shatter of its own momentum. End quote. Which is just thematically, like, so beautiful. I mean, this is not just a commentary on the Honored Matres. It's a commentary on power and control. Something that Frank has been talking about now for five books.

[Leo]

Yeah, you know, we've talked about this so much, but the idea, the kind of venom in Odrade's voice as she's going, those idiots are making such a crazy mistake. And the fact that Waff is like, wait, catch me up. What's the mistake? And she's like having being in power, being the like of course, have your power, manipulate, blah, blah, blah, but being the one holding the reins. Amateur mistake. And the fact that WAF hasn't picked that up as well shows how naive the Benny Twilax as organization is. They have been preparing for their time in the sun, or preparing for their time to, you know, the converting everyone to the great belief or eliminating everyone who's not part of the great belief. But they don't yet know what happens once you claim the power. The Bene Gesserit know very well and have avoided it for millennia because they know it can destroy you.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's been their M.O. for thousands of years because they know the dangers. Now, as the negotiations continue, WAF and O'Draid kind of bounce around a couple of other topics as Waff is trying to sort out whether he can actually trust Odrade. And Odrade is continuing to convince him that he should. She in fact, masterfully dupes him into believing that the majority of the Bene Gesserit are fellow believers in the Great Belief and want the same end goal as the Tleilaxu. They want to convert, subjugate the galaxy under a single religion, under the true religion, the Tleilaxu religion, including the hordes returning from the scattering too. Everyone needs to fall in line and be included within the the Great Kell and the Bene Gesserit want that too, secretly, just as the Tleilaxu want that secretly. And in fact, any heretics, like perhaps Shuang Yu are the ones that don't want that. So thank you in fact, for murking her. We appreciate it.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's an interesting bluff and it's an interesting misdirection. But honestly, this also forced me to step back a little bit and look at what was the plan with Paul. The Missionaria Productiva was softening worlds and worlds and worlds to the idea of this son of a Bene Gesserit prophet who would take control and take the reins and help the Bene Gesserit continue to steer from being the mother figure to the person on the pedestal. But that was also effectively going to be a universe wide dupe of we've gotten you all on board with this messiah figure. And so I'm part of, like, part of me here is like, is this also another. Yeah. Is this semantic? Are we Just. I mean, is the difference just a matter of definition? Kind of interesting. I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but it's also very likely that's where Odrade can speak to this concept vaguely, because they have the experience of Paul in the Kwisatz Haderach program. Might not be their plan anymore. They might be a little bit more attuned to what humanity needs as the Golden Path. But still very interesting. And I liked that kind of dimension that. That gave to her perspective a little bit.

[Abu]

Yeah, I think that's a great observation. And you're onto something there. Like, there is a bit of a hypocritical tomato, tomahto situation in what Odrade is claiming the Bene Gesserit want. But I think, as with anything, the devil is in the details. You know, the tullydaxu want a very specific version of the future. The Bene Gesserit want another version. They might be similar, but I'm sure the details will be dramatically different. But let's wrap up chapter 32 here. A really great chapter. I loved this one. The chapter ends as Odrade basically seals the deal on this alliance with an absolutely brilliant set of final lies and strategic truths. Something she's been doing this whole conversation.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

She tells Hoffman that the Bene Gesserit plan to breed Duncan Idaho and Chiana and use their descendants to, quote, speak for us all to all of those descendants of the Prophet. End quote.

[Leo]

Insane.

[Abu]

Interesting.

[Leo]

Fascinating.

[Abu]

I wonder if she's being intentionally obscure there, because what does she mean by that, really, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah, my sort of tinfoil understanding of it at the moment is their plan is to put worms on other planets, which is going to make spice more widespread and available. And in the past, this has always failed, we've always failed to successfully seed worms on other planets. But maybe if you had someone like Shiana who could communicate with the worms, maybe if you had someone who could help the worms get into position or understand what the worms need or understand the worms, that would make that easier. And wouldn't it be nice if that person that you control is a. Well, is someone you control is a Benny Jesuit member of the Benny Treasure. So the idea of like, okay, step one, wait for someone like Shiana. Step two, get Shiana with. With the hottest guy that we've ever heard of, Duncan Idaho. Keep him. That's right in the backlog. The Goa. The Gola backlog. You've seen him climb a rock wall. He's crazy. Is incredible. So that. That's Kind of my understanding. So the plan is to breed Duncan Idaho and Shiana to use them and their descendants to speak for them to the descendants of the Prophet. The descendants of the Prophet being specifically the worms. The worms 2.0 that have descended, quote unquote from the Prophet, aka Leto, too.

[Abu]

Leito. Right. His pearls of wisdom that are presumably in there still.

[Leo]

That's my reading of it.

[Abu]

I think you're correct. Because, like, this is also why O'Drade is, like, so carefully observing Shiana in the past few chapters when she speaks to the worm. You know, this speaking to the worms feels like a critical part of their plan. And maybe the Bene Gesserit theory is the reason worms have never made spice on other planets. Why it's always failed is because we've never had anyone to talk to them. And maybe if we have Shiana and we have Shiana's babies and Shiana's descendants talk to worms on other planets, we will not only control those worms will control the flow of spice on those planets. And we'll practically control those planets because we'll have an economic grip on them.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Seems to be a bit of a bold strategy to expand Bene Gesserit power and wealth. If it. If it works.

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, of course, plans within plans. This is Dune, after all. Waff hears this and goes, fuck, yeah. We created the ghola that you plan to breed Shiana with, and we have secret mechanisms of control deep within this ghola. So you're just walking right into our trap. This is brilliant. I'm so happy to hear this. So he's stoked. He's like, oh, my gosh, these sisters are about to get double duped by.

[Leo]

Me, the master of masters. Up top. And she's like, did you just high five yourself?

[Abu]

High five yourself?

[Leo]

No. What did you see? Okay.

[Abu]

He also doubles down. He's like, yo, okay, I like this plan. I'm down with the worm plan. Are you also going to keep spreading the Atreides Manifesto? Because we're very pro that.

[Leo]

Oh. Oh, I love this moment.

[Abu]

And O'Draid. O'Draid drops the Thomas Jefferson and is like, yo, bitch, I wrote the Atreides Manifesto.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Those are my words. Those are my bars. You're singing Master of Masters, Waff, you're.

[Leo]

Singing along in karaoke. I'm recovering my track. Yeah. It's absolutely wild. I love that. I mean, it would make sense for me to. After all, I'm the author. And he's like, what?

[Abu]

He's Blown away, you know? Oh, my God.

[Leo]

God, so satisfying.

[Abu]

I loved that moment. What a satisfying moment. And you know what? This locks it in, right? Waff is just like, oh, fuck, dude. I am so in on. In this. On this alliance. He's convinced they're gonna team up. And he even asks, you know, at this point, he's like, let me just shoot for the moon. Let me ask for everything I want. Because this alliance seems to be going down. He asks, oh, Jade, if she herself, because she's a direct Atreides descendant, which she reveals to him. He asks if she will be available as a breeding mother for the Tleilaxu so they can capture her genetic data as well. And even this odraid softly agrees to quote, I am almost past the age of breeding, but I am yours to command. End quote. Which obviously, to me reads as a lie. But at this point, she knows Waff is locked in. So whatever. Say yes to whatever he wants.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. I think this is. That's the game here, is to just be like, look, I promised. We ask for things that you haven't given us in the past. You've asked for stuff in the past. Ask for anything. And he's like, what about. She's like, yes. He's like, whoa. What about yes? Don't even have to hear what you're saying. Yes. Huh? Anything. So we'll see. We'll see what? We'll see what she actually delivers.

[Abu]

Yeah. So that's chapter 32. Such a good one. I loved this one so much.

[Leo]

Yeah. Our final chapter in the reading is another banger. So much fun, really. Just a lot going on. In our final chapter, We. We catch up with Brismali before the battle in chapter 31. So we're going back in time just a little bit. We're seeing that he has set up a command post in a tree fort. Effectively, he's hollowed out a giant pingatam tree, which is this giant, fine type of wood tree. And he has hollowed it out and is using it as a command center. Now, from this command center, he basically has eyes everywhere. He watches Lucilla, Duncan, and Tag leaving. He sees them. He sees Teg kind of fighting off the men on the. On the face dancers. He sees Lucilla and Duncan get close to him. And as they get close to the tree, his men grab them and, you know, Whisper and Chakopsa, we're friends, and drag them in, Stu. Drag them inside. Very like, yeah, we've got candy inside the white van. Just get in the van. Don't worry about it.

[Abu]

Get in, loser.

[Leo]

Get in, loser. We're. We're going to Woodstock. And Bursmalli's escape plan kicks into action. The theme of the plan, Deception, decoys. And a third word that starts with the letter D. Done. Predictability. Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah. The Golas. All techniques he's learned from his mentor, Miles. Tag. Remember your three Ds. Deception, decoys. And done. Predictability. Now they are in this kind of armored ground car. It, like, blows out of the tree, the tree explodes. They, like, fly over bat. It's so cinematic. It's such an exciting, exhilarating sequence. It's incredible. And they, almost immediately right after they've made it, seen by all of the enemies. Hey, look, we're in a car. We're in a car, look. They immediately get out of the car. They, like, ditch the car. The car goes off on its own. It explodes in the distance as if it was overheated. And of course, there's like a hundred other cars and 100 other things going. They are going to go on foot and stay relatively close to where all of this is happening. Yeah, because that's the unexpected. That's the thing that no one's going to expect them to do.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So the decoys take off. They remain behind. Brismoli leads them on foot to a room carved into the rock, and it's covered in protective algae. This whole, I mean, the last few chapters on GAMU have involved references to, like, life seekers or people with prescience and something that, like, can suss out where maybe, like, living beings are. We haven't really gotten a lot of details of what that is, but this room carved into the rock has a protective algae that will only show as life as a plant life. So even if they do have one of these life seekers, they're going to see a, you know, a chunk of, I don't know, moss in the rock, and that's all they're going to see. Now, Lucilla, master of languages and tongues, notes that the guards, the people in this room, all have strange accents. And she begins to suspect. Holy shit. Are these people from the scattering? Are these people returning from the scattering? What? They literally don't even go to this school. It's not even a Mean Girls reference anymore. Who is she? They're going to make fetch happen. So wild. These are people from the scattering. And a woman, an ancient, decrepit old woman. Stay tuned. With the same strange accent named Serafa enters. And she just starts giving orders. She's like all right, Duncan, you're going to go with this person. Get out of here. Lucilla, you're going to. Hey, get naked quickly.

[Abu]

You're going to change clothes with me real quick.

[Leo]

Change clothes. Swap clothes.

[Abu]

No introduction.

[Leo]

No introduction. And they're suspicious, and it's all very confusing. Bruce Molly is kind of reassuring throughout this process. He's like, not enough. Not enough. Not even fucking remotely enough. He's like, trust them. And she's like, why? And he's like, no further comments. Like, why? Come on, Bruce Molly. Jesus.

[Abu]

Yeah, this is one of my storytelling pet peeves, where the drama at the core of a scene or whatever an arc could just all be instantly deflated if the characters just talked to each other for, like, five extra minutes.

[Leo]

Yeah. Especially because a little bit in the scene, he's like, go ahead. We have time to talk. And I'm like, then why don't you talk?

[Abu]

We have time.

[Leo]

Come on, dude. You're the one holding back, playing all koi and shit, right?

[Abu]

He's just trying to get laid.

[Leo]

That's how it works out. The whole time he's like, we've got so much time. So, so much time, man. It'd be. It'd be, oh, it'd be such a shame if someone had to sleep with me right now. He's just short and horny.

[Abu]

Yeah. Br. Molly, did you come up with this plan? Cuz that's mighty convenient.

[Leo]

Yeah. Bruce Molly slept with all the other guards first before. It's just like, it's gotta. We have to.

[Abu]

It's part of the plan.

[Leo]

Part of the plan. Guys, don't ask too many questions. Trust me. I'm Bruce Molly. Well, back to Serapha. Serapha is apparently from the Scattering. That and specifically is from a faction that opposes the Honored Matre. She says straight out. She's like, my whole existence is to hunt and kill under Matre. That's wild. And she's got a game plan. Lucilla and Duncan will be disguised and separated. As she points out, people are going to be looking for someone that looks like you and someone who looks like him.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So let's give them. Not that. Let's give them everything but what they're looking for. And we're going to disguise Duncan as a Tleilaxu master. Will never work. He's too hot, too tall. Lucilla, in the meantime, is going to be an Honored Matre play fem. Like an acolyte of the Honored Matre. And Bursmali is going to pretend to be, like, a farmer Client, basically, who's hired her and they're going to go to the city. That's the plan. We have a lot of thoughts about Serapha and this whole little section, so we're going to talk about that for our takeaways.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So for now we're going to wrap up the chapter and we're going to wrap up in just a wild, effectively, like dick measuring contest between Lucilla and Serafa.

[Abu]

Truly. Truly.

[Leo]

Because Lucilla's like, so play femmes are supposed to be sexual adepts. Sure. But I'm, I'm like way better than any fucking thing you're talking about. And brings receipts. I mean, she's like, oh, no, no, I know about all 205 sexual positions. And Serapha is like, I thought there were only seven. You know, like just completely blown away. She's like, there's missionary, there's doggy, there's. That's all I know. What can you do? My God.

[Abu]

Lucilla's like, wow, vanilla as fuck.

[Leo]

Vanilla as.

[Abu]

Get on my level.

[Leo]

Vanilla as fuck. Indeed. And she can control, of course, every muscle in her body. Of course that applies to the sexy, sexy bits. And she's pretty sure that a quote, fifth level playfemme, end quote, can't do that. She's like, I'm pretty sure. I also love the moment. She's like, I can control every muscle in my body. And Seraph is like, what the fuck? Bruce? Molly. Yo. Is that true? And Brismoli's like, yeah, it's true.

[Abu]

I told you. I told you, Sarava. You didn't believe me.

[Leo]

But yeah, it's wild. Well, after getting enough information to properly cosplay as the Playfemme and basically bragging about all the abilities she has as a Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

She turns to find the true puppet master in all of this. First Molly, naked and with a. In Frank Herbert's exact words, quote, stiffly up cocked penis, end quote. Managing to fit both the word cock and penis into a single descriptive of just him with an erection. Just say erection.

[Abu]

That's right. That's writing, folks.

[Leo]

That's writing. That's pros.

[Abu]

I mean, between beef swelling and up cocked penis, maybe Frank just didn't know the word erection. We're like, Mike, he's like, new ways to be. Like, how do I say this?

[Leo]

Beverly. Beverly, what the fuck do you call. God, what is that called? You know, I'm gonna go beef swelling.

[Abu]

Beef swelling.

[Leo]

Beef swelling. Yeah, that's kind of what it is. That's what people call it. All of his friends can't bear to bev.

[Abu]

What's it called when, like, when it stands up? It's like, I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it.

[Leo]

I think I've peed. Pretty sure I figured it out. Alternative possibility. He wrote all of this as haiku, and so he just had to, like, keep it to the very minimal phrasing.

[Abu]

That's true as well. Had to stick to the rhythm. Erection is a hard word to, like, stick to a rhythm.

[Leo]

Three, stiffly upcocked penis. There's a meter to it now. Lucilla. The chapter ends. Lucilla, to her credit, is like, oh, this could be fun. She's like, oh, yeah. Little tumble in the hay with Bruce. Molly. Sweet. Sure.

[Abu]

Right. She's an imprint or she's done this before. None of this faces her.

[Leo]

Yeah. This is not demeaning. This is not. She's just. Yeah, this is part of the job. I got it. Sure. No problem. And actually, doesn't she say it's like a pleasant diversion? She's just like, well, this has been quite the night. Having some sex. Sounds great, actually, as it turns out. Right, but she realizes a missed opportunity. Quote. This should be the Gola here now. End quote. Good point. You know, she could have been like a. Except Lucilla. He's still a child. Fuck off. Still young. Yeah, come on.

[Abu]

Still a child. But, you know, she's got her orders from Taraza and she's still stressed about not doing it.

[Leo]

It's true. She's trying to do the two birds, one stone sort of thing. I respect that.

[Abu]

Wow, what a great set of chapters. My goodness. I've been waiting for this all book and it's finally happening and I'm having a blast. Just call me Brismali, huh?

[Leo]

It's all going to plan.

[Abu]

It's all going to plan. All right, that's our chapter summaries for today's reading. Let's take a quick breather, folks, because we got to gear up for a nice big upcocked takeaway. Coming up.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

Yeah, so we'll see you in a minute.

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[Leo]

You enjoyed your break. Let's do it. Let's get into our takeaways. And our takeaway today is Serafa and the Seeking, not the Pokemon folks. The act of Searching. In today's reading, Lucilla meets Serapha, Right? A mysterious woman from the Scattering. And we are for sure left with more questions than we're given answers. But we do get some tantalizing details about these mysterious travelers. And of course, the Honored Matre, this mysterious organization who apparently is, like, well established on gamu. My God, what's going on on Gammu? Clearly a lot.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about this mysterious woman from the Seeking Scattering. Depends on your point of view.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

From the offset, we are told that she is dressed in garments that are, quote, similar to that worn by ancient playfemmes. End quote.

[Leo]

Okay. Kind of a hot older lady. Ah, sweet. Sure.

[Abu]

I'm intrigued. Tell me more.

[Leo]

Tell me more.

[Abu]

Serapha then reveals that the garments actually have been obtained for Lucilla specifically for this disguise by killing a postulant of the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Whoa.

[Abu]

Which is pretty wild considering really our only interaction with an Honored Matre in this book so far was when Waff met with the deadliest, scariest woman he's ever met in his life.

[Leo]

Yeah. Retired athlete who nearly broke his leg. Reflexively. Like, just reflexively as she died. She nearly killed him.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. That's a pretty bold statement for Serapha to make. We killed an honor madre. We got this for you. Whatever you're going to put it on.

[Leo]

Yeah, I had to look up postulant because it's just not a word that I use frequently. And it is, quote, a candidate, especially one seeking admission into a religious order. End quote. So just to steal a little bit of Serapha's thunder, it seems like they killed what is equivalent to, like, a Bene Gesserit acolyte rather than, like a fully awakened Reverend Mother. So, for what it's worth, the Honored Matre we saw earlier seemed to have been an Honored Matre, like an Awakened. I don't know if that. If they do that. Yeah, but, like, seem to be like. Yeah, exactly. Like a formidable high level. This is a lower level acolyte who has been killed, basically.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a good call out for sure. Still, an impressive feat nonetheless.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, Bene Gesserit acolytes, we're told all the time how Bene Gesserit acolytes could very easily handle individuals who are not part of the Bene Gesserit. So, yeah, I imagine this, what appears to be more and more an offshoot of the Bene Gesserit. I imagine even a postulant of the Honored Matres is a pretty formidable individual.

[Abu]

And actually, speaking of offshoot of Bene Gesserit, we get another clue about the Honored Matre Bene Gesserit connection with the garment itself, which Serapha, which Lucilla notes, is very similar to what she's wearing. Serapha and Lucilla are, like, practically wearing the same exact thing with small little detail differences. And that, once again, makes it clear to us, the reader, that the Honored Madre is definitely connected to the Sisterhood in some way. In their deep past and history, there was perhaps a connection. Serapha even carries herself in a very Bene Gesserit way. Lucilla comments, quote. There is something almost Bene Gesserit about the way the old woman just stood there looking. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, I. So we get multiple times in this book of, like, Odrade or I think it was, oh, Jade, when she was in Taraza's office, she just, like, waited with that open awareness of, like, anything can happen and I'm just taking in whatever's happening. There's something about that, the kind of, like, quiet presence, observation that has become sort of a hallmark of Bene Gesserit trained people. Yeah, very cool, very subtle. I like that for sure.

[Abu]

Now, the mystery around this woman kicks up another notch, Leo. Okay. It goes deeper because when she disrobes. I actually had to read this part twice because I did, like, a double take while reading this part. When she disrobes, she reveals, in contrast to her very old, wizened face, a young, strong, supple body.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And then she passes, quote, her palms across her forehead and cheeks, smoothing them backward. Age lines grew shallow and a younger face was revealed. End quote.

[Leo]

What the flipping flipper fuck am I looking at?

[Abu]

What's happening?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Crazy. And obviously we, the reader and Lucilla jump to the same conclusion. Face dancer. Yeah, this must be a face dancer. But at the very same time, Lucilla's like, what the fuck? No other indication that this is a face dancer. None of the techniques, none of the familiar pheromonal techniques and tells that face dancers have that we Bene Gesserit know are coming from Serapha in any way. This is. This face morph is the only indication so far that she maybe is a face dancer. So again, we're seeing these connections between people of the old Imperium and the characters and factions we know and are quite familiar with across the five books. And then these lost ones who are totally alien to us, but continue to have these subtle but poignant connections to the factions we know.

[Leo]

So, so far, Seraph appears to be someone with, like, Bene Gesserit training and deep ties to the Bene Gesserit capable of killing Honored Matre. What do they call postulants? But then also face dancer. So this is kind of one part Tleilaxu, one part Bene Gesserit mix person.

[Abu]

Okay, hold your thought, though, because there's another part to add to this.

[Leo]

Oh, good.

[Abu]

It gets even more confusing.

[Leo]

Lime.

[Abu]

Because Duncan observes.

[Leo]

Oh, okay. Tequila.

[Abu]

Duncan observes that Serafa claps in a certain way.

[Leo]

She's like, what are you talking about? They're like, oh, that's a fun. What is that gesture?

[Abu]

Quote, Duncan touched the back of Lucilla's right arm, his fingers. Secretly quick talking. That hand clap. A mannerism of Giddy Prime. End quote.

[Sponsor]

What?

[Leo]

Everyone on Giddy Prime's like, oh, my God.

[Abu]

Can we not right now?

[Leo]

Can we not, please?

[Abu]

So this adds another layer of confusion, right? Is this a mannerism that Serapha has picked up on Gamu? You know, like, is it something that once she came here, now she has started to talk like this? Or is Serafa some, like, long distant ancestor, maybe, of a Harkonnen or even of an Atreides that then took over Giedi prime after the Harkonnens were displaced. Like, again, deep, ancient connections to the old factions we knew from thousands of years ago, and a connection that Duncan recognizes because he was alive thousands of years ago.

[Leo]

This is a bad bit to continue on a podcast because I'm sure it's not fun to listen to.

[Abu]

The clapping is.

[Leo]

The clapping is probably annoying, but one last time, because I could not help but think about Baron going, my Arrakis, my Dune. And they're like, he's clapping just like a Giedi Prime. That's fun. Yeah. Ancient. Ancient Mannerism.

[Abu]

Another very cool connection and confusing Point about Sarafa, I'm loving it for sure.

[Leo]

And regarding Seraphis, at least like immediate life, Serapha explains to Lucilla, I mentioned this earlier, but this is the quote, quote, I was trained only to kill them. That is my only function and purpose. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay, so killing, killing, honor Batres, which.

[Leo]

Kind of to me sounds like face dancer junk. Like that kind of sounds like psy Tale or like one of these. Their whole purpose and their. All of their training is to kill a specific target or like a specific type of target. Like, I don't know. That feels like face dancer junk too, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah, totally.

[Leo]

Or, or Bene Gesserit where they, they might have like an imprinter. And their whole job, their whole existence is to do this one thing really well. It's. Yeah, it's so interesting. I have questions.

[Abu]

An utterly confounding character. Serapha, for sure.

[Leo]

Very, very cool.

[Abu]

And you know, our confusion as the reader is very intentionally mirrored in Lucilla and Duncan's confusion in this whole situation when approached with Serapha. And in fact, throughout this whole book, many of the characters that we come to know from the Old Imperium, from the factions we already know and somewhat love, the Bene Gesserit, the Bene Tleilax, Duncan Miles, tag, they are totally thrown off by the mannerisms, the actions, the behaviors, the strategic choices of these Lost Ones coming back from the Scattering. It's this very interesting culture clash at the core of this book. And knowing what we know about Frank and his fascination between Western ideals, Western religions, Western politics, and comparing that with Eastern religions and Eastern cultures and Eastern traditions, this to me feels like another way in which Frank is potentially exploring that tension between east and west, between cultures that share a common ancestor. Clearly, the Lost Ones from the Scattering share common ancestry with the Old Imperium, but have now evolved and diverged into such dramatically different directions that when they come together, it's confusing. Nobody knows how to react to each other. It's interesting.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's such a good point. And it's a really interesting thing to consider, especially when it comes to sex and the way that sex is being handled and talked about between them. Intimacy, you know, Serafa observes that. So in this kind of role play, Lucilla is going to be playing as like a play Femme. And Scar is her client. And Serapha explains, yeah, there are these great religions that are now established. They have embassies, they've settled on Gamut. And again, I ask what the fuck is going on in Gamut? That's why what is going on? We have the seek, we have, we have religions from the seeking that have come back and established themselves on gamut. Like, that's wild. Nevertheless, she was kind of. She kind of notes, I can understand how someone in this old ass corner of the universe might see sex for pleasure as the enemy of religion. It's sin to. To have sex for pleasure. And Lucilla agrees. Quote, accept no substitutes for holy joy. End quote.

[Abu]

Not holy joy.

[Leo]

Holy joy, my goodness. I mean, no substitutes for holy joy. That is to say, so. Yes. Very, very classic. They kind of understand that as a common ground.

[Abu]

Yeah. And that fits with sort of like contemporary religious for many religions in our real world and religions that Frank would have been familiar with. Right.

[Leo]

Many, many of the Abrahamic ones for sure. Yeah.

[Abu]

Certainly the Abrahamic ones. Yeah. Sex is often seen. Sex purely for pleasure, you know, is often seen as at best unnecessary and at worst a straight up sin.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Versus, like, sex. To procreate is the only reason to have sex, you know.

[Leo]

Right. Boring, lame. But also, I think there is an element of like, this is also where I wish I knew more about the many, many, many religions that exist in the world and the many different cultures that exist in the world. Because I know vaguely that there are cultures where it's like, yeah, sex is just a part of living. It's just a part of life. And even as a Westerner, this chapter, as an American, this chapter made me uncomfortable talking about all the different, like, oh, I can control the temperature of my vagina. And I'm like, why are we. Ew. Like so many details. We don't need to. And I'm realizing, like, puritans is the answer. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I don't think of myself as being prudish when it comes to this stuff. But then Frank talks about some things in detail and it doesn't bother me. And then he talks about this stuff in detail and I'm like, oh, Lord, the temperature in the room is driving. He's got an upcocked. What? I'd prefer you use the word that doesn't name the anatomy. It's like, why? I don't know. Yeah, it's very strange. It's really. It is something that I'm kind of actively wrestling with to get back to this conversation with Serapha and Lucilla. Serapha says, hey, okay, you know how that pattern works? You know how the Americans treat sex? Well, don't expect priests of the scattering to have those same sensitivities. Don't expect them to be as sort of squeamish or to follow the patterns that, you know. In particular, there is a church that follows the God Tantrus who, quote, claim that sex is the exclusive worship of their God. End quote.

[Abu]

And the danger is that Lucilla might be confronted by one of these breeds. They might want to, quote, unquote, test her and then she'll have to like sleep with them, you know, or like, the gig is up and she'll get caught.

[Leo]

Yeah. Also, I, I mean, again, if I were to choose a church to join, that's already a pretty strong pitch, all things considered. It's a strong pitch. But I do want to point out I thought this was interesting and really kicked back to a conversation we had in a recent book club episode about the sort of immediate joy and satisfaction versus profound lifelong fulfillment. And then going a level deeper, the Bene Gesserit recognizing that there's something that people want and if they don't already know what that is and they haven't put a name on it, you create it and give it a name and then you control it. And in that way you can make people forego both immediate pleasure and also more long term satisfaction. Right. You can have people give up, abstain from all sorts of things if the result is a more profound metaphysical salvation. You know, something like that. The Bene Gesserit specialize in finding that lever. But it seems like the folks from the seeking have blurred some of those familiar lines. Right. Or are looking at it from a different angle. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I also, I couldn't help but think about one of the things that I was learning about being raised within Tibetan Buddhism was the different ways that meditation kind of ended up. And just as a very quick, you know, background thing, meditation in some cultures was like you're sitting on a, on a cushion with singing bells and incenses and you have mantras and maybe you have beads and there's these different elements and, you know, pieces of the ceremony. But that all required that you have the leisure time to sit on a cushion in a room with these things. And for people who had to like wake up when the sun was up and go into the farm and till, that wasn't an option. And so there was this kind of a hierarchy of do you get to progress toward enlightenment or not? Is fully dependent on which caste you're in, like which social caste you're in. And one of the interesting things that arrived out of, I learned of it through Zen Buddhism, but the idea that you can work, you can do labor in the field, and that is meditation. Meditation is redefined as being something that can be done in motion while you're engaging with the material world around you. I thought that was really fascinating as a kid. And now reading this series, it's like I see a similar thing being done for things like indulging in sex for pleasure. You say it's separate from worship, and, in fact, maybe it's diametrically opposed to worship. And then this faith that follows the God Tantris has said, no, no, this is a piece of worship. This is a piece of. This is, in fact, the only piece of worship is a sexual act. This is all very fascinating. And I like when Frank kind of rolls up his sleeves and gets messy with, like, cultures and faiths and religions. And so it's all very fun world building. And it's cool to be in the shoes of Lucilla, who just doesn't know any of this stuff and is having to ask questions to kind of figure out what are we talking about here and what has come back to the imperium from the scattering. What rules are still in place, which ones aren't. It's all very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. And I think to your point of her being confused, ignorance does run both ways, because, again, this is true. Cultures clashing in a way where they really have to start from square one. They have to even figure out how to speak to each other and understand each other before other things like politics, war, negotiations can take place. Because there's this really great example about Serapha in this conversation being blown away by Lucilla's abilities.

[Leo]

Right, Totally.

[Abu]

And not believing, as we mentioned earlier, that she can control every muscle in her body. That is a foreign concept to Serapha, someone who hunts Honored matres. Honored matres who are so closely tied to the Sisterhood, or at least connected in some way in the far past. So it's just, I think this conversation of, like, these cultures clashing and trying to understand each other and the different ways in which we see expressions of sex and religion and those clashing with each other and the confusion between both parties is explored in an interesting way here. And it all feels very intentional. Again, given what we know about Frank's fascination of comparing Eastern and Western traditions and cultures.

[Leo]

Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

He has set up the story in a way in which he gets to explore how those cultures clash when they come into contact with each other.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. It's so much fun. Frank having a good time.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, regarding what little we can glean about the culture of the Honored Matre, we learn a little bit about them through all of this as well. The autumn Batre lobe Lucilla is given identifies her quote as a fifth stage adept in the order of Hormu. End quote. So we have a rank, we have an order. These are things that are within the Honored Matre society. And even the Honored Matre culture clearly has some sort of corporate ladder with promotions and reviews. You know, they've got quarterly, quarterly reports because this acolyte might be looking for promotion, right? Lucilla's skills, if they're too great, if they're seen as being too good for someone who is a fifth stage adept, she is to claim she's, quote, about to undergo testing for advancement that may quiet suspicion. End quote. Which, of course, my takeaway here is don't over perform at work. Just give exactly what you're never.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh, never.

[Leo]

Just be at your level and don't do more than that. They're not paying you for more than that. Quiet quit.

[Abu]

They're not paying you for more than that. They're going to lay you off in the blink of an eye.

[Leo]

Turnover is crazy in the order of hormones.

[Abu]

I have a buddy of mine that's always like, bro, you got to stop going to work and doing all this extra credit. I'm coasting on B plus work, and I make more money than you. Just coast, man. The meritocracy is a lie. I could go on about that, but yeah, that's my takeaway as well.

[Leo]

There's something to be said about that. There are times when I hear complaints. My partner naturally works in a pretty big company and she complains about, oh, this person I oversee took three weeks to work on this document. And I'm like, what? And that person's paid how much?

[Abu]

How much what? They make twice what I do.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, maybe a little bit more. It's pretty wild. So, yeah. Anyway, Lucilla as well as apparently all of us need to learn how to quiet quit a little bit better or choose better industries where you're paid a lot more.

[Abu]

Yeah, that too.

[Leo]

As a final important detail from all this, I do want to say Lucilla is told that if a priest of the divine, this is this order that follows the Tantris God. If a priest of the divine asks about the order of Hormu, all she need do is threaten to report the questioner to your superiors. The questions should stop, end quote.

[Abu]

Hell yeah.

[Leo]

Which I thought was interesting because this indicates even these great religions, even these priests of the divine, they are afraid of the superiors of the Honored Matre. So the Honored Matre Order may be an acolyte, may be a postulant of the. A fifth stage adept. Maybe they. You can just engage them for their services and work with them, but if they threaten to tell someone who's higher up on the. On the Ladder, that's enough to intimidate people out of follow up questions. So nice little, nice little hint here that the higher ups at the Honored Matre are formidable and worth.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Worth keeping in mind.

[Abu]

And that also like, don't ask too many questions. There's a certain level of like they're shrouded in mystery on purpose.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Don't fuck around because you're going to find out seems to be the Honored Matre motto.

[Leo]

That's a linear relationship. Fucking around and finding out.

[Abu]

So let's wrap up this takeaway. We've gone through a number of details here about Serafa and the little hints that we're getting about the scattering and the folks from that scattering. But let's try and synthesize it. What does this tell us? What can we take away from it? What can we glean from this information? The first thing I wanted to call out is just how late in the book we're learning all of this by the way, that we're encountering someone like Serapha. Again, we are approaching the final act of the book. Things are kind of coming to a head and we've practically met no one except that one Honored Matre that Waf had a meeting with and the one Honored Matre servant that Taraza and Miles Tag duped. So what's interesting then is very late in the book here we are now suddenly learning that the lost ones, these people returning from the scattering, are not a monolith. They are not all just Honored Madre or working for Honored Madre. And in fact, there's an opposing faction here. Serapha kills Honored Madres. And in fact, these factions seem to be open to allying with someone like Brzmali or allying with the Sisterhood against the Honored Matre. So that's fascinating because that opens up a world of political and strategic possibilities in this battle against the Honored Matres. They are not some monolith. This isn't just a wave of enemies returning from the scattering. There are interesting factions and clearly religions in here. And the more we learn about them, perhaps the better we can fight this battle. Yeah, it adds a layer of nuance to just the other. You know, they aren't just the others coming back and they're all dangerous. There are some in there that we might be willing to work with, people like Serapha.

[Leo]

And even for as mysterious as they still are, the fact that Bursmalli got in contact with them at all makes me think they are being proactive. And we have re entered this old imperium. Let's find people that we can ally with and we find this Bursmali guy who's part of the Bene Gesserit. Maybe we have that in our records somewhere. Or maybe we just are now getting a sense of. They're quite formidable when they did X, Y and Z. So it's all very like. Yeah, it's plans within plans being imported from a whole other playbook of characters and casts and stuff. It's very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. And again, quite a large reveal to get this late in the story. But that once again, we've talked about this topic a number of times as well during this read through. But this is Frank putting us in the shoes of the character. We are feeling what Duncan and Lucilla are feeling in this moment. Confusion, suspicion, doubt, a little bit of awe. You know, we're looking at Serapha and being like, what are you?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

All of the same things that are running through Lucilla's mind. This is a technique that Frank has clearly very intentionally used throughout this book to varying levels of success, in my opinion. It's interesting and I've been critical of it before. Again, we talked about this. I think even just in the last episode we talked about it. I haven't been the biggest fan. I think it's hurt the pacing. I think it has resulted in some weaker storytelling in this book in particular. Like when it comes to this example today of just now learning about Serapha and these other factions. To me as a reader, that's more confusing and frustrating than it is tantalizing. I'm not suddenly like, oh, okay, Frank. I love the tease. I'm more like, we waited this long and now we're just learning about this. It would have been more interesting, at least to me, to have learned or at least been hinted some of this stuff earlier in the book so that I could get sort of a better context of this conflict. Like, sure, the way the book is written, we are very much in the shoes of the Bene Gesserit, in the shoes of the Tleilaxu and the old Imperium, we can sort of embody their confusion and ignorance about the people from the scattering. But I think that also runs the risk of removing a lot of stakes and drama in the storytelling of this novel. Because I am just mostly confused and ignorant of what's going on. That takes away some of the stakes for me at least. You know, I'm like, oh, okay. I'm just now learning this. This is crazy. Wish I had known this earlier. So that's at least my personal take on it, obviously. Serapha, super fascinating character. I loved these chapters. Today things are kicking into high gear. I don't mean to be critical of the book. I'm just critical of this particular creative choice that Frank made that didn't vibe with me personally.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think that's totally fair. And I also, I think this is Frank not going fully to the walls with his action kick up. Right. If we had had three chapters, granted, we think about this, or maybe I think about this book now a little bit in like three. Three chapter segments because of our book club. But I'm like, oh, yeah, this was a nice break from the like, action, action, action of.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Of everything that's been happening. And I guess also the. It is pretty. Still a pretty action packed chapter. So.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

I don't know. It is. I hear what you're saying, though. And we feel very far along in this story to be getting this new stuff now. And it's sort of. That can always be pulled up a little bit, brought earlier into the story. I also, you know, again, I felt icky and a little bit unnecessarily kind of grossed out by all of the kind of sex talk. And I've seen conversations online of people. There was on the subreddit, men writing, women. There was like a whole conversation about this scene.

[Abu]

And yeah.

[Leo]

So clearly it affects. It affects people. Debatable. I think that that's a whole conversation you can have. As I was saying earlier, I think this might just be my challenges as like an American reader with my sensitivities. But I also thought Bursmali's fucking silence was hard to justify. I'm like, why is this dude not just saying another sentence? And I think again, one more sentence about keeping the plan secret because of xyz. Or like, oh, we need to. You know, we don't have any sheer. So we can't tell you too much because if you die, it'll give away xyz. Like sweet, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That made anything versus just the silence. And then him being like, ready to bang. Like, what up? It's you. It's me, your boy Bismoly ready to fuck. Like, I don't know. It'll be Very interesting to see how all this wraps up, but I totally hear you. The kind of the. Where this happens in the book feels misplaced a little bit. Like, I know why it has to be here, because this is very sequential to the things that have happened earlier, but still.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. And you make a great point about the sex stuff, too. You know, it's like, a lot of it is leaning into the sex stuff in a way that feels somewhat unnecessary. You know, you have to sleep with brismoli because they could catch you. You'll have to sleep with the priest. When they catch you, you'll have to sleep with the. You know, and it's like, okay, gosh, you know, we get it. She's an imprinter. It's like, what are you getting at here, Frank? With. With it? Like, I get the stakes, I get the danger. I get this is a skill that Lucilla has. But, yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Some of the ickiness that you felt, I certainly felt, too, in this chapter.

[Leo]

And I will say that in the conversations I saw online, some painted, like, sex work in really negative light, which I very much am not on board with. I'm like, let's support people, whatever they decide to do with their bodies. Their bodies, their autonomy. So, for sure, I think there's an element of you can kind of. It is a longer conversation to be had that might just get to, like, at the heart of every culture. How do we treat sex? And what is sex? Frank has proposed this religion, or it sounds like a couple of religions that are either, like, women. The Hormu, the order of Hormu, who conquer entire planets through advanced sexual techniques, but also a priesthood of the divine that treats sex. Who follow a different God of Tantris, who treats sex as the only type of worship. And both of these seem, like, pretty. You know, I've heard it kind of quipped that, like, by the time of writing this book, I think Beverly had perhaps passed. And then people will say, oh, well, Frank was just channeling his, like, horniness from being alone into this book. I think that's really unkind. I think that's really oversimplified, and I think it's painting too much a monolith of this book and doing a discredit to how much world building he actually does put into these different things.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But it is certainly that is the decision I see that he's made that I wonder at, like, why.

[Abu]

Right. Why the hyper fixation on sex as a tool to tell your story and.

[Leo]

Explore your themes Specifically for the factions in the scattering. Because that is the decision. Because again, I don't think that Lucilla is like, hey, Serafa, let's make this about sex. Serapha and Lucilla are like, here are the players that you're going to be dealing with. The people who are most likely to bother you are this order from this religion that's all about sex. And technically the person you're disguised as is also from a faction which is all about sex. And then I step back and I go, the person writing this book didn't have to make these major dangerous orders from the scattering all about sex. Maybe it's a broader. Maybe there is some high level thing, like maybe it's a big metaphor about how Western society is doomed to fall. The second conversations about sex are brought in from the scattering or whatever. I don't know, it could be kind of a fun thing to talk about there.

[Abu]

Right. And again, if that is the case, then I think the book fails to justify its own fixation on the sex. It's like, if you're going to explore that theme, then you need to explore it in a way that gets to your point. Maybe. So, yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more with what you've said. I think the weird Beverly people making these unfounded claims about like, Frank was just horny, missed his wife. That's weird. Gets personal. But as a writer, I think we are well within, as the consumer, as the reader, we are well within our rights to be like to consider Frank as a writer and why he made writing choices in the story and why he chose certain story topics and aspects and created certain parts of the world that he was fully in control of creating in order to explore that, you know, and I certainly agree with the criticisms out there that there's like an over fixation in these latter two books on sex as a tool for characters in the story, but also as a tool as a writer that Frank used to like, explore the story. Yeah. And maybe that part of that, as you're saying, is I need to examine my own discomfort with talking about sex this much openly in contexts of power and control. So maybe that's what Frank intended to.

[Leo]

Yeah, but you make a good point that if it doesn't then invite you to have those considerations. What you have done is you've created a work of art that's going to make a lot of people a little bit uncomfortable and then never channel that discomfort into a way to reckon with one's like the limitations of one's thoughts, you know, I think I really respect when art makes you reexamine elements of your kind of base assumptions. But it has to ask that question.

[Abu]

And it has to ask it to write. Right.

[Leo]

And I think you might be so subtle that it.

[Abu]

Most people will miss the or like.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

You know, even we who are so obsessed with it and are literally reading it and examining it line by line are perhaps missing the point, if that was the point. It's, like, too subtle, you know, Too under the radar.

[Leo]

Yeah. Once we finish Chapter House, I think it'll be interesting to take a step back and have a conversation about, like, what do we think were the sort of axiomatic, like, drivers of these different things? And I think we can say with confidence that in Heretics, Heretics gets all very sexy and stuff. Sexy in the. Containing a lot of sexual. Almost explicitly. Not turny oni. You know, like, you don't read these sections and go, hell, yeah. Stiffly upcocked penis, same queen.

[Abu]

You know, it's like, none of these moments are erotic. Which I think plays in its defense. You know, if this was just, like, erotic to just be erotic and horny, then it would be bad, you know, Then it would be like, ugh, unnecessary. What the fuck are we doing here? But to your point, Frank is much smarter than that. He is using these tools intentionally, and it's on us as the reader to examine them critically and wonder why.

[Leo]

Yeah, so that'll be an interesting. I'll write that in our ongoing scrapbook.

[Abu]

Yeah, we'll apply that to our ideas list, for sure.

[Leo]

The engine of each book. But anyway, we can wrap up this conversation here. Generally, I think the theme in all of this is there is a scary existential question that is being posed by these returning forces from the scattering, which is, what the fuck is happening? Why are all of these people coming back from the scattering? Are they running from something? Are they running to something? Do they have. What is the motivation behind all of these groups coming back? Should we be panicking? Should we be scared?

[Abu]

What's going on out there?

[Leo]

What's going on out there? You know, there's a certain number of people. If one person jogs by you, like, runs by you, you're like, runner. Get it? Fitness aspiration goals. Sweet. When it's like a thousand people and there's no marathon scheduled for that day.

[Abu]

You go, what are they running from? Should I be running as well? Totally. Totally.

[Leo]

So basically, all I'm saying here is, sure would be nice to have some pressings. Sure would be nice to have an idea of what's next. But that's where we're at with the book right now. We've got key logs, dependencies, Things are, cars are flying, blowing up. There's decoys and decoys and lots of sex and all sorts of stuff. Empress Molly's getting laid. Scylla's getting laid. Everyone's apparently everyone's getting laid.

[Abu]

Everyone out there getting laid. Where do I get in line? Okay, so that's our takeaway. Yeah, we clearly had a lot of feelings and thoughts there, and Serapha has raised a lot of questions, not only about her as a character, but about this book as well. Let's take another quick break and when we come back, folks, we will wrap it up with a delicious spice morsel today.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

I'm sure many of our listeners picked up on this. Actually.

[Leo]

Yeah, it was funny. I think all of us independently took note of it. Yes, in today's reading, Frank gives us some world building around the fine and coveted wood of the palingitam trees. He's a 3PO, they said, meaning that such a person surrounded himself with cheap copies made from declassee substances. Even when the supremely rich were forced to employ one of the distressful 3pos, they disguised it where possible behind op the only p. P TAM. Nah, end quote. So very strange 3po. Naturally, for all of us, I think probably most of us, many of us, we immediately thought of George Lucas's fussy golden Robot. That's right, C3PO from Star Wars. Which sheds a hilarious and brutal new light on, quote, cheap copies made from declasse substances. End quote. Excellent catty, sassy, hilarious shade there. Yeah, and we're not the first. I mean, we did a quick web search on this and there are many conversations that connect the dots and assume that at this moment, Frank is Jabbing at Star wars and of course, Star wars writer and director George Lucas with this quote. And there's a little bit more meat here than you might expect. So in an article from the Port Angeles Daily News from. I'm sure we all read this ourselves. August 19, 1977, the year star wars came out, they wrote, quote, star wars writer producer George Lucas says the only similarity between his work and. And that of Herbert's is that they both have deserts. And that's bullshit. But, okay, super bullshit. Super bullshit. And in the same article, Frank explains that he was at that time in at his, like, cottage, regularly receiving calls asking him if he was going to sue George Lucas over Star Wars. So Star wars comes out and people who are fans of Dune are going, frank, what are you going to do, dude? And he said in response to that that he's going to try very hard not to sue, that suing was not something he intended. And of course, ultimately he never did sue George Lucas. And in some ways, like the. The conversation in some ways kind of died. Nevertheless, it was clearly on Frank's mind for quite a while. Because in the 1985 UCLA interview that we've talked about in our interviews with Frank Herbert episodes, he says the following. And I thought this was so much fun, quote, Lucas has never admitted that they copied a lot of Dune. I'm not saying they did. I'm just saying that there are 16 points of identity between Dune and Star Wars. Now you've had a stat. What was it? It's 16 times 16. 16 times over. Over 1. The odds against that being coincidence. There aren't that many stars in the universe. I think he at least owes us dinner, if only out of coincidence. End quote.

[Abu]

Incredible. The shade.

[Leo]

The shade, yeah. Because there was also an element of, like, David Lynch's movie in 84 had some, like, weird production things. Because of Star wars already being there, people were kind of comparing it immediately. And there was also issues with Joe Dorosky's film in 72. And all of this is kind of messy, and we'll actually talk about this at some point in a more kind of focused conversation. But that quote from 85 at UCLA is the year after Heretics was published. So at the time of writing this book, Frank was clearly on some level thinking about those 16 points of identity between the two. This is also two years after the third Star wars movie hit theaters. So all very funny. We love petty Frank. We love sassy petty Frank. Just casting shade. And that is our morsel covering the messy web of Star Wars, Dune and Frank Herbert.

[Abu]

Yeah, an intentional little 3PO reference in there, probably.

[Leo]

Very likely.

[Abu]

Alrighty, that wraps up today's episode, folks. Another fun one. Can't wait to see where this book continues to go next. It's going to be a wild ride based on today's chapters. And speaking of where we go next, folks, we're going to take a bit of a breather. Instead of assigning you more reading, we are going to have a mailbag episode coming up. Another Heretics of Dune focused mailbag episode. So your assignment this time is to submit your questions, submit your observations, send us your crackpot theories of the book so far. The best places to do that, of course, are either in the Mailbag Questions channel in Discord, if you're in there, or to email us, come to our podcastmail.com and the sooner you do that, the better the chances are that we will be able to include it in the episode coming up.

[Leo]

Indeed. And definitely send us questions because those episodes are so much fun when we get to kind of dig in a little bit deeper into our understanding for the book.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. And the two best ways, as always, one, become a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar and two, get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merchandise store. Those links are in the show notes. Check them out. Our patrons make what we do possible.

[Abu]

That's right. And a reminder of how to get in touch with us. If you're not in the Discord, email us. We'd love to hear from you. Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts. Send us your questions for that upcoming mailbag episode. Send us cute pictures of your pets. We always love those. And we always just love when you say hello. So gomtrabarpodcast.com is a great place to get in touch.

[Leo]

Indeed. So how many people do you think bursmally slept with that day?

[Abu]

How many were in that tent? How many were in that hideaway? You know, I'm trying to think back. How many guards were present? There was that one he was arguing with, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, so I feel like that was some spice.

[Abu]

There was some sexual tension there for sure.

[Leo]

He's reporting to Taraza. He was like, the operation. Oh, the operation went great. Oh, it was amazing. It was such a blast. It was so tag. Oh, you know what? I forgot about Tag. He was captured. Now what was I doing? I was. Well, you know me. I was strategizing. I was stretching, strategize. I was. I was. Okay, so I was having sex with everyone. It was so great.

[Abu]

We threw an orgy.

[Leo]

It was so good. I get it now. Oh, it was great.

[Abu]

A little unnecessary. It really didn't have anything to do.

[Leo]

With the plan to rise. Send me back to gamer. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Lore Underscore Party. We're Also on TikTok AM Jabbar podcast. Thank you so much for listening and remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.