Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 12)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast - Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 12) Summary

Host: Abu and Leo
Release Date: May 2, 2025
Podcast Description: Gom Jabbar serves as the ultimate guide to the Dune universe, delving into every facet of Frank Herbert's original novels, HBO’s TV adaptation, and Denis Villeneuve's blockbuster films. Hosted by Abu and Leo, the podcast caters to both longtime fans and newcomers, releasing new episodes every other Friday.

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Episode Overview

In this installment of the Book Club series, Abu and Leo dissect chapters 34 to 36 of Heretics of Dune. The discussion centers around the escalating tensions within the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, the introduction of advanced technology like the T probe, and deep dives into character dynamics, particularly between Mother Superior Taraza and Reverend Mother Odrade.

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Detailed Chapter Summaries

Chapter 34: Council Turmoil and Taraza’s Dilemma

The episode kicks off with Abu summarizing the tense atmosphere in Chapter 34, where Mother Superior Taraza grapples with the fallout from Odrade's decision to ally with the WAF (Women's Armed Force) and the Bene Tleilaxu on Rakis.

• Key Points:

  • Taraza is visibly stressed by a council meeting where Odrade’s actions have polarized the sisterhood.
  • Balanda, a vocal council member, vehemently opposes Odrade and advocates for her elimination, stating concerns over Tleilaxu tampering with a Duncan ghola.

• Notable Quote:

  "Woo, damn, intense hunger pangs." – Abu [00:29]

• Abu and Leo’s Commentary: Leo humorously compares the toxic council environment to a dysfunctional workplace, imagining the extreme reactions to Balanda’s demands.

Chapter 35: Miles Teg’s Transformation

Abu transitions to Chapter 35, highlighting the intense interrogation of Miles Teg by the enigmatic Lost Ones using the newly introduced T probe.

• Key Points:

  • Teg undergoes a brutal interrogation that transcends traditional mind probes, involving physical and sensory manipulation.
  • The T probe is revealed to be more invasive than Ixion probes, capable of duplicating Teg's entire sensory and biological makeup.
  • Teg, utilizing his Mentat and Bene Gesserit training, resists the probe, leading to a dramatic “Super Saiyan” moment where he gains the ability to act with supernatural speed, overwhelming his captors.

• Notable Quotes:

  "He understood... The shear and his mentat resistance shunted the searchers away from his memories." – Abu [15:04]
  "Mentat projection. I am moving with dangerous speed." – Leo [20:48]

• Abu and Leo’s Commentary: The hosts marvel at Teg’s transformation, likening it to a “Super Saiyan” and praising it as one of the book’s standout chapters.

Chapter 36: The Clash of Taraza and Odrade

The discussion shifts to Chapter 36, focusing on the complex and fraught interaction between Taraza and Odrade, which reveals deep-seated tensions and underlying sympathy.

• Key Points:

  • Odrade proposes a radical theory about axolotl tanks being surrogate mothers, hinting at darker Tleilaxu practices.
  • The debate extends to the implications of the Bene Tleilaxu’s alliances and the potential dangers they pose to the Bene Gesserit’s control.
  • The interaction between Taraza and Odrade is charged with personal history, mutual respect, and conflicting ideologies.

• Notable Quotes:

  "Perhaps someday a mother superior of extraordinary abilities." – Abu [38:13]
  "Odrade... has been extremely clever." – Leo [23:23]

• Abu and Leo’s Commentary: The hosts engage in a lively analysis of Taraza and Odrade’s relationship, exploring themes of loyalty, rage, and the burdens of leadership within the Bene Gesserit. They liken the reverend mothers’ dynamic to complex interpersonal relationships, drawing parallels to real-life experiences with authority and mentorship.

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Key Discussions and Insights

Taraza and Odrade’s Complex Relationship

Abu and Leo delve into the nuanced relationship between Taraza and Odrade, examining how their differing approaches and internal struggles impact the broader narrative.

• Abu’s Perspective: Reflecting on personal experiences, Abu draws parallels between military recruitment and the Bene Gesserit’s requisitions, highlighting the ethical and emotional burdens leaders like Taraza face.

• Leo’s Perspective: Leo contemplates Taraza's hidden rage and Odrade's compassion, suggesting that Taraza's outward composure masks deep-seated anger against how her life has been manipulated by others. He posits that Odrade serves as a cathartic counterpart to Taraza’s internal turmoil.

Technological Themes: The T Probe vs. The Mechanical Universe

The hosts discuss the introduction of the T probe as a symbol of advancing but ethically ambiguous technology within the Dune universe.

• Philosophical Insights: Abu likens the T probe’s capability to the mechanical universe philosophy, questioning the limits of technology in replicating human experience and essence. Leo connects this to real-world artificial intelligence, drawing parallels between the T probe's data extraction and large language models’ predictive capabilities.

Epigraphs and Parables: Symbolism in Heretics of Dune

Abu and Leo explore the significance of epigraphs and parables used in the chapters, interpreting their symbolic meanings in the context of the overarching Dune themes.

• Example Discussion: They analyze a parable about a man observing a donkey's nose and tail through a fence, debating its implications on understanding causality and the dangers of oversimplified explanations—a recurring theme in the Dune saga regarding prescience and prediction.

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Conclusions and Takeaways

Internal Struggles and Leadership

The episode emphasizes the internal conflicts faced by leaders like Taraza, who must balance personal emotions with the demands of their role. The interaction between Taraza and Odrade underscores the complexity of maintaining organizational cohesion amidst differing personal philosophies and ethical considerations.

Ethical Implications of Advanced Technology

The introduction of the T probe raises questions about privacy, consent, and the extent to which technology can or should be used to manipulate or understand individuals. Abu and Leo discuss how this reflects broader concerns about technological advancement and its impact on human autonomy.

Philosophical Underpinnings

The hosts connect the themes from the chapters to larger philosophical debates about determinism, free will, and the nature of the universe. They highlight Frank Herbert’s critique of rigid causality and the importance of recognizing the unknowable aspects of existence.

Character Development

Miles Teg’s transformation serves as a pivotal moment, showcasing his resilience and the power of Bene Gesserit training. Taraza and Odrade’s evolving relationship adds depth to their characters, revealing the personal costs of their duties and the conflicting emotions that drive their decisions.

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Closing Thoughts

Abu and Leo conclude by expressing their excitement for the forthcoming chapters, teasing deeper explorations of Taraza and Odrade’s relationship and the evolving political landscape within the Dune universe. They encourage listeners to continue their engagement with the book club by reading the next chapters and sharing their insights.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Abu [00:29]: "Intense hunger pangs."
• Abu [15:04]: "He understood... The shear and his mentat resistance shunted the searchers away from his memories."
• Leo [20:48]: "Mentat projection. I am moving with dangerous speed."
• Abu [38:13]: "Perhaps someday a mother superior of extraordinary abilities."
• Leo [23:23]: "Odrade... has been extremely clever."

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This episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast offers an in-depth analysis of key developments in Heretics of Dune, blending plot summary with rich character insights and philosophical discussions, making it an essential listen for fans eager to deepen their understanding of the Dune universe.

Transcript

[Abu]

Today on the show, we're recording with dangerous speed. The probe agony has lifted Gamcha Bar to a new level of podcasting. Leo. Yeah, we've gone Super Saiyan.

[Leo]

Oh, finally. Huh?

[Abu]

This is a level we've never achieved.

[Leo]

I've dreamt of this moment since I was a child, watching Goku and Vegeta and all that.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Also, is it just me? Intense hunger pangs. You? Intense hunger pangs.

[Abu]

I'm feeling them.

[Leo]

Intense hunger pangs.

[Abu]

Intense doesn't begin to describe what I'm feeling in this moment, to be fair.

[Leo]

Normal recording session, though, like, for sure. Always hungry.

[Abu]

We always record it like lunchtime. And I'm so hungry.

[Leo]

Every key to our success.

[Abu]

Foreign.

[Leo]

Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh, and today on the show, we are back. It's a new year, new US Resolutions firmly forgotten already, and we are talking about heretics of Dune. Because this book is not over, folks.

[Abu]

No, no, no.

[Leo]

We're getting to some of the most memeable chapters.

[Abu]

Yes, I can't wait. Today included today. Great set of chapters. My God.

[Leo]

Yeah, I say it every time. I'll say it again now. It's a great set of chapters. What a good set of chapters.

[Abu]

I couldn't agree more. Now, before we get into it though, folks, you know the drill. We got to take care of some housekeeping before we get to today's reading. So right up top, quick spoiler warning. A reminder that these book club episodes contain no spoilers beyond the books and pages that we have covered thus far on the podcast. So as long as you are caught up with the reading, you are good to listen today.

[Leo]

Indeed. Now, as always, a huge, monumental shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, and Bret Brad Hutchins. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your support. I imagine if we put you on a pain T probe and we crank that to 11, right? Lovingly, lovingly, Lovingly. Lovingly torturing you. You would immediately break free and just. Yeah, I. Without even having to go through the whole. I'm like awakening or whatever, you're already there. You're already at that level. Tags meeting you where you're at.

[Abu]

Who needs sheer. When you have so much generosity, folks? T probes can't work on you.

[Leo]

No, you're Immune. You're immune. Thank you. And our thank you, of course, extends to all of our patrons who make what we do possible, sincerely, especially into this new year. We could not do it without your support. Thank you so much.

[Abu]

That's right. And a very quick reminder that if you can't become a monthly supporter right now, don't forget that you can still show your appreciation with a one time tip. Check out that buy me a coffee link in the show notes below.

[Leo]

All right, you know the game plan for today's episode. It's a book club episode. We are going to start off with a summary of today's excellent chapters.

[Abu]

Excellent.

[Leo]

Excellent. And then we're going to dive deeper into a takeaway. And we're going to finally wrap up with some yummy ooey gooey spice morsels. High in protein, low in calories, the perfect snack. So don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break now. And then we're going to get to all that good stuff right after this. 24 chefs. 24 culinary showdowns. For 24 hours straight.

[Abu]

Which chef will.

[Leo]

Outcook, outpace, outlast the competition? No chef escapes the clock.

[Abu]

All new 24 and 24.

[Leo]

Last chef standing Sunday night at eight.

[Abu]

See it first on Food Network Stream.

[Leo]

Next day on Max. That's your money saying it's time for a McDonald's run. Cause with new McValue at McDonald's, you get more than you expect. Like buy a six piece McNuggets and add a McChicken for just a dollar. Your money says let's go get more than you expect. With new MCvalue, prices and participation may vary valid per item of equal or lesser value.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's dive into today's reading, starting with chapter 34. So we begin today with Taraza. Stop me if this sounds familiar. With Taraza in her office, stressed to the nines, folks. Sweating.

[Leo]

First time I'm hearing of this. She's stressed. Why? What does she got going on?

[Abu]

What could she possibly have going on? Just the future of all humanity.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This time, though, to hone in on what is exactly causing her anxiety. The source is this awful council meeting that just wrapped up.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Turns out that Odrade's bold decision on Rakis to go rogue and ally with WAF and the Benny Tleilax have thrown the sisterhood leadership into total disarray. And most of them, it sounds like, want Odrade killed. We got to hit the reset button. We got to stop whatever Odrade is doing over there on Rakus. Nick's Odrade?

[Leo]

Yeah. This is a. This is a toxic workplace for sure. Can you imagine? After a work meeting, it's like, what did. What did Jerry do? Kill him? I demand he be killed.

[Abu]

Should we wait? Should we maybe put him on a.

[Leo]

Like a pip, Pip?

[Abu]

Should we pip.

[Leo]

Are we jumping straight to documented coaching, no execution? Okay. I mean, listen.

[Abu]

Gotcha. Like, anyone who's been on a pip knows it's practically the same thing. But.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, of course, Taraza resisted to this. We'll talk a lot about Dar and Tar in that relationship in today's episode. But there are many reasons why Taraza is resistant to the idea of having Odrade killed outright. But at the same time, she is Mother Superior. She is in charge of the sisterhood and, to some extent, the future of humanity. And Odrade has put them in a fucking pickle.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Taraza is having a tough time figuring out how they're going to get out of it. How could they possibly agree to be missionaries? To spread the great belief of the Tleilaxi for those filthy motherfuckers. How could a Drake do this to us?

[Leo]

Gross. Awful. Gross. Yeah.

[Abu]

It's a tough spot for the Mother Superior to be in. Now, what's incredibly annoying is that the most vocal of the council members hasn't left yet. She's still fucking hanging in the doorway.

[Leo]

You don't have to go home, Balanda, but you can't stay here. Get out.

[Abu]

Truly, please leave. Balanda has stuck around after this meeting to vehemently argue her point to the Mother Superior. Balanda wants both Odrade and the Duncan ghola killed because she believes that the Tleilaxu have tampered with this ghola. It's incredibly dangerous, and it's gonna backfire on us if we continue down this road. And for what it's worth, I mean, yeah, Palanda has some. Some points here. All of those things are true to some extent.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, Taraza doesn't necessarily disagree with any of this. This is where sort of her split decision is she doesn't want to kill a Drade, but she kind of gets the reasoning why they should. And ultimately, for Taraza, the big question lingering over all of this is melange. The thing lingering over all of Dune and practically every story. All of your proposals lead to alienation from rakis and from the Tleilaxu Bell, end quote. The two sources of melange in this universe. One, the planet Rakkis and two, artificial melange from the Tleilaxu. If we do what you're proposing, we're cut off from both sources.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think the kind of brilliance in all of this scene setting is like, I get where Baland is coming from.

[Abu]

Same. Yeah.

[Leo]

And I also get where Taraza's stuck between these, like, very valid points. And also later, when Taraza and Odrade are talking, I get why Odrade's making the choices she's making. It's like we have all of these very reasonable, smart characters doing the best that they can with the information they have available to them. And it just continues to be this battle of, like, who knows what and who's on the ground. Again, that's also why Taraza, in her conversation with her dread is like, I need your perspective. Because it's this battle of information. Still, I've read a lot of other books recently, and it's crazy how easy it is to fuck up this dynamic of everyone having different intentions but still being relatable on some level. It's cool, because as annoying as Balanda is, again, no one loves that kid who hangs out with the teacher after it's like, just go to lunch. What are you doing here?

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And I was fully that student. But nevertheless, like, what's up, Mr. Plesk? I don't know. Yeah, maybe Nick Plesketch listens to the podcast. I hung out with him during lunch. He's my AP Chem teacher. Anyway, point is, no one likes that student. Get out of here. Go to lunch. Go have fun. Belinda, go to the fucking cafeteria. Have a beer. I don't know. Nevertheless, I get it. I get what she's saying.

[Abu]

I get it, too.

[Leo]

I'm right there with her. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. And it's hard to disagree with many of her points. And for what it's worth, Taraza does agree with many of her points. Just, it's the details that everyone's disagreeing on, including O'Draid and Taraza later on in the reading. And I couldn't agree more. This is handled so well where everyone has a point, everyone has valid concerns. And for what it's worth, this is a gamble, right? Everyone is rolling the die because no one knows what the outcome will be.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And where the disagreements are happening is the probabilities of it all. I don't think your plan will work, because that one's gonna fuck us. Here's how we make sure we don't get fucked, right? That sort of thing. But ultimately, this argument stalls and Kind of goes nowhere. Balanda makes her points. Taraza disagrees. And then Taraza is just like, okay, just leave me now. Please. Go. Go to the fucking cafeteria. We then spend a bit of time within Taraz's mind as she ponders this situation. And she, for example, examines the words of Leto's ominous message that Odrade has sent that warning at Sietch Tabur. And you know, she. She is as stuck as everyone else. What did the damnable tyrant mean by this? What did his bars represent?

[Leo]

Yeah, ep. What was he. What was he trying to communicate with that fucking EP he dropped? It was crazy.

[Abu]

It was crazy. A total pop song of the summer.

[Leo]

Song of the Summ Summer.

[Abu]

Ultimately, as chapter 34 wraps up, Taraza concludes that Odrade has backed the Bene Gesserit into a corner, and they have no choice but to follow through with her plans for now. And what this ultimately necessitates is that it's time for the Mother Superior herself to be on the ground. Boots on the ground. She's got to go to Rakis and talk to a face to face.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah. That carries us into chapter 35, which. Good Lord, buckle up, folks.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Too bad you didn't buckle up fast enough, because what's coming at you is a whirlwind of Teg himself. So let's talk about 35. In this chapter, we join Tag. He was recently stun gunned to the face, and he is coming to consciousness, being dragged around into a secret safe house, a shitty little shack chilling in the wilderness that turns out to be much lighter and brighter on the inside. And he undergoes a brutal interrogation by the mysterious Lost Ones. Now the trio of Lost Ones.

[Abu]

I found this so funny. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

They first, they try to break him just by the silent treatment, okay? They're like, give him a few minutes. He'll crack.

[Abu]

Stare at him menacingly.

[Leo]

What are they doing? They're just waiting Menacingly. And of course, that doesn't fucking work at all. Also, we. We also find out they have intel about him. Like, like one of them is like, yeah, I've confirmed this is Teg. And I'm like, yeah, so you know who this guy is? And you thought that had a chance? It's so funny. It's hilarious.

[Abu]

So funny.

[Leo]

Now, the one in charge quickly facetimes their boss. He, like, quickly pings them on a Discord call and is told to basically go ahead and use this thing that Teg initially identifies as an Ixion probe. He's like, oh, this is an Ixion probe, but the guy calls it a T probe. And we learn that this is maybe a slightly different thing than Teg thought it was initially. Right. And even though he knows that he's loaded up on shear, even though he knows they're not going to be able to necessarily get his memories using an Ixion probe, it seems like they're still powering it up to use it now, to put it mildly, the T probe. Not a good time. It is not fun. In fact, he's like, I didn't know you could feel this much pain. And in fact, he imagines this is what Reverend mothers undergo. Quote, he thought suddenly that the Spice Agony must be like this. For a Reverend Mother, surely there could be no greater pain. End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

You know, it sticks out. Seeing how often the word agony is used in this chapter.

[Abu]

Yes. Feels intentional. For sure.

[Leo]

For sure. And it's interesting, too, the parallels between, like, the pain box and the. And the Gom Jabbar test and then also, yeah, the Spice Agony and all these things. It's interesting to think about, especially with what the way the chapter ends of, you know, TAG kind of leveling up, but nevertheless, getting back to the T probe. The T probe is unlike familiar Ixion probes. It's not merely reading his mind and reading his memories and getting his. His thoughts. It is taking over his body and, like, one sense at a time.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Learning his reactions and kind of mapping his brain so they have their own, like, synthetic tag that they can then use to get information from.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

As tag is kind of, like, losing control of himself and kind of realizing what's happening. He is kind of slipping in and out of consciousness, almost like he's unaware of moments that are happening. But we also see that he is fighting back. Like, there are these moments where they're like, he can still hear us. What the fuck? What's happening? Why can he still hear us? And part of that is he's a mentat. Part of that is he has sheer. There's a lot going on. But we have this quote that kind of explains his understanding of the T probe. Quote, he understood. Now the whole spectrum of his senses could be copied into this T probe and identified, tagged for Yar to call up when needed. An organic chain of responses existed within tag. The machine could trace those out as though it made a duplicate of him. The shear and his mentat resistance shunted the searchers away from his memories, but everything else could be copied. End quote. Which is pretty wild.

[Abu]

That's wild. Much more than An Ixian probe. You know, I get the sense that an Ixian probe is able to, quote, unquote, probe someone's mind. And this thing is trying to capture every physical, biological sense of who Miles Tagg is as a person and, you know, seemingly like reproduce it digitally in some ways so that they can extract information whether he's willing to give it up or not.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I think about. Because he's making it clear his mentat training in the Shear is preventing them from getting to his memories. But this probably has the ability to see the memories too. So now you have all of the information they have and also how they would act and think and, you know, think about, like, what that would mean for a face dancer. What is that information worth for a face dancer who needs to copy your behaviors and stuff like, this is an incredibly potent tool that they have clearly developed out in the scattering. Something also that comes up in the conversation between Terrazza and Odrade is like, how sophisticated some of this technology is that's coming back from the scattering, so really intense. This also leads him down an interesting thought path about how even if they have all of his senses and his instincts and his reactions, not having his actual lived memories and not having those will basically make the reproduction of his mind much less valuable, which then he's like, what does that fucking say about Golas, dude?

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Someone who doesn't necessarily have the memory of having been given birth by their mother and being raised in that family, you know, whatever. Like, not having those lived in experiences. What does that say about Golas, that. That kind of inability to really know some of those experiences. Yeah, here's the quote. Quote. The machine cannot share that birth experience except in a remotely vicarious way. Sure to miss important personal nuances. End quote.

[Abu]

And you know, later in the episode, we're going to talk a bit about the mechanical universe, an idea that we first explored back in God, Emperor of Dune, thanks to Leto ii. This machine to me feels like someone said, oh, mechanical universe thinking. Cause and effect unlocks all the secrets of the universe. So cause and effect will unlock all the secrets of a human being. I'm going to make a machine that just learns the causes and the effects of how Miles Tagg behaves. And we will be able to unlock everything there is to know about Miles Tag. We can force it all out of him. And here, Miles, undergoing it himself, fighting it for his dear life, sees the flaw in that plan. And I think thematically it's very in line with things that Leto too. And Frank has sprinkled all throughout these books this idea that there is a unknown, magical, ungraspable universe that technology just will never be able to penetrate. And to some extent, maybe human understanding will never be able to sort of quantify in any logical, mechanical way. And so I found that parallel interesting the more we dug into these chapters and some of the ideas in them.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Hearing you talk about it reminds me of how we build, like, large language models in AI where this is kind of a black box. They're making a black box of TEG brain. You can't understand every neuron, like neural connection, but you can map every cause and effect. And then you've got this box where you can input something and get the tag response. And that, in some way, is, like, good enough for you. But you've missed the human element of tech, and you've missed the, like, the. The real lived thing.

[Abu]

I agree. And there's more. We'll say more about that a little later in the episode, for sure.

[Leo]

So those realizations are at the beginning of this kind of transformation for tech, right? He is learning the machine. As the machine is learning, he starts kind of outpacing it a little bit. And then he forces himself to open his eyes, which he should not be able to do in this circumstance. And because of his Bene Gesserit training, because of his Mentat training, because of these awakening, perhaps even prescient abilities where he's recognizing, I know what people are going to do before they do them, he opens his eyes and realizes things are moving very, very slowly. He has these unexplained abilities, and let's just call it fucking Super Saiyan. Our guy goes literally Super Saiyan. He becomes the Flash. He is the newest speedster to join the DCU in the mcu. And the world around him slows to a crawl. Quote, mentat projection. I am moving with dangerous speed. End quote.

[Abu]

I guffawed at this line. Loved it so much.

[Leo]

Yeah. The fact that, like, the guy is, like, reaching for the button and the whole time takes, like, he's about a fifth of the way there. And then I, like, chop this dude's neck. Killed him. This person kicked out with, like, crazy speed. Not fast enough. Chopped her, and then I killed her. Guy's hand is halfway there. I'm like, incredible.

[Abu]

So, so good.

[Leo]

Good. I love this chapter. It's one of my favorite chapters in the book. And I just. Tag is so much fun. This is so great.

[Abu]

Right? If you've been Wondering listening to this podcast for years or reading heretics with us and being like, teg seems like a cool guy, but why are they always raving about Miles Tag? We're here now, folks. This is why. This and the rest of the book is why. Miles Tag is the absolute goat.

[Leo]

Get this guy a chili dog. He's hungry. So, yeah, Tag breaks his restraints and kills his captors before they know what's happening. And even as his time sense returns to normal, and even as he approaches slowly being back in normal speed, he's able to single handedly kill all of the soldiers and the guards outside of the shack and kill the people inside the shack.

[Abu]

Amazing.

[Leo]

And then he looks to the horizon, sees a city Yasai. The city Yasai on planet Gemmu. And he's like, all right, I'm off. I'm heading to Yasai. And he blurs away into the night. The whirlwind of a man that is Teg.

[Abu]

Ah, one of the best chapters in the book. Okay, let's talk about our final chapter for Today's reading. Chapter 36, folks. It's DAR versus TAR in this one, as the two reverend mothers face off in a debate that is as nuanced and layered as it is juicy and gossipy. My God. I was like, okay, stepped into an episode of Bravo all of a sudden.

[Leo]

Did you hear Belanda got dumped? Oh, my God. That's crazy.

[Abu]

Oh, my God. You know, I called it years ago.

[Leo]

Yeah, he's dating her sister. I know, I know.

[Abu]

My God. So to set the tone of this conversation and this confrontation between Tar and Dar, here's how it begins. And if you don't mind, Leo, let's maybe do a little bit of roleplay here. Yeah, I can be Tar. And if you want to be Odrade, sure. Well, Dar, I think we finally meet as strangers.

[Leo]

So it's not Dar and Tar anymore.

[Abu]

Perhaps it never was Dar and Tar. I see that you think you have been extremely clever. End quote.

[Leo]

Fucking brutal.

[Abu]

That's how it starts, folks.

[Leo]

You have been extremely clever. Good Lord.

[Abu]

We meet as strangers.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Wow. Honestly, there's a missed opportunity for me to open this episode with me being like Leo. It appears we finally meet a stranger.

[Leo]

Perhaps we always were strangers.

[Abu]

Incredible stuff. And obviously sets the tone for this chapter. But I will say, as icy as this first exchange between the two is, it is clear throughout the rest of this conversation and throughout the rest of this chapter that the two women do have a deep sympathy for each other. You know, there's still a connection There. There's still a deep history there between the two. So let's get into the conversation here. It begins as Odrade basically relays what she has learned from the Tleilaxu so far here on the ground on Rakkis. And O'Draid drops a bombshell right off the bat. She begins by positing a wild theory about the axolotl tanks. Hey, Tar. What if the axolotl tanks aren't a piece of technology, aren't some sort of bacta tank thing that humans are grown in?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What if they are literal surrogate mothers? What if they are Tleilaxu human beings?

[Leo]

Fucking Taraza understandably shocked by this.

[Abu]

Fucking crazy.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And O'Draid kind of hits the home run with a question quote. Who has ever seen a Tleilaxu female? End quote.

[Leo]

This is wild. I'm blown away. We're not really. We don't get the conversations that she's been having with Waffle.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

But we're seeing what she is gleaning from his responses. She is saying, I promise you, he. When I ask him about the tanks, he acts in this weird, embarrassed way, mapping patterns of like someone who's got a child or. It's like a familial thing and it's embarrassment and it's like, it's very. I'm like. We're seeing her connect dots in a very brilliant way. That's really demonstrating how smart she is. And like, she's the best detective on the planet for sure.

[Abu]

For sure. And look, this is. If her theory about the axolotl tanks is true. This is monstrous. Right? Think of what's happening. Are all Tleilaxu women enslaved as just like breeding machines for Tleilaxu designs and to create colas. What's going on over there on that fucking planet?

[Leo]

And what does that mean for like, we've been trying to get axolotl tanks for thousands of years. We've been trying to like, get their secret technology. Are we going to be fucking kidnapping ladies? What's going on?

[Abu]

Yeah, I mean, obviously some morally questionable things going on over there. And as all of this sort of sinks in for Tarasa, she's trying to process it. Oh, Jade keeps going. She's got more to talk about here, folks, because she switches topics to then the ghola. And she tells the Mother Superior that WAF won't reveal a lot about the ghola and what the Tleilaxu have done to it, but clearly he's Hiding something. Right. Again, to your point, Leo O'Draid is doing a lot of detective work and reading between the lines. Waff is very hush hush about the ghola, but that makes it even more suspicious because it's so obvious that he's hiding something. They've tampered with the ghola in some way that they really don't want the sisters to find out about. And actually, speaking of things that Waff is revealing and not revealing, Odrade is also certain from her conversations with the Master of Masters that the sexual skills of the Honored Matres have surpassed Bene Gesserit imprinters like Lucilla.

[Leo]

That's fucking crazy.

[Abu]

And to actually folks might be reading this chapter and being like, what is Odrade talking about here? Why is she jumping around from topic to topic? First we're talking about axolotl tanks, now the golet, now the Honored Matres and imprinters putting all of these pieces together. Odre does have sort of a concluding thesis here that she reports to Taraza. Odrade's theory is that the Bene Tleilax have made this ghola and tampered with it in a way that it is the male equivalent of an Honored Matre. In particular, when it comes to, I guess, hand job or missionary abilities, like its sexual prowess and abilities which is an extremely dangerous weapon. You know, imagine what would have happened if Lucilla had been able to seduce Duncan.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If he was as powerful as an Honored Matre in his sexual prowess. I would be willing to put Solaris down. That she would have failed and. Or died in the act of trying to seduce him.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or at least have become, like, he would have become her.

[Abu]

It would have reversed. Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah. Like he. And then. And then you have, like, a compromised sister. And that's also where the line about, like, the Tleilax have been killing them because they're failing. And we know they're failing because the. It would be a visible disturbance in the sisterhood. And what does that look like? It looks like Lucilla being like, this sisterhood. This dude's great, right? Have you gotten a hand job from this guy? This guy's fucking the best.

[Abu]

Duncan Idaho.

[Leo]

I'm on Team Duncan Idaho. Price of admissions not that high, guys. Join the team.

[Abu]

Yeah. That would be wildly disruptive, of course, to the sisterhood. But also consider how disruptive, if true, if Duncan's abilities are on par with the Honored Madres, how terrifying that is to the Honored Madres as well. There's this guy walking around out here, who could challenge us, who could endanger us. And that statement is true for both the Andermatres and the Sisterhood. It puts Duncan in a interesting place within this conflict. For sure. It's a wild theory. And to kind of summarize it, Taraza, I think, puts it really succinctly. I wanted to share this quote because I think it helps synthesize some of these wild ideas down to a simple concept. It was like holding a burning club. You knew you might have to use the club for your own survival, but the flames approached at a terrifying speed. End quote.

[Leo]

I love that so much.

[Abu]

Duncan being the burning club.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's. There have been other metaphors too, throughout where it's like a sword that once, you know, you like, once you've used it, you can't put it. You can't like put that weapon away. Like, there's, there's a lot of imagery there about, like, it's useful, it's a tool, but once you've utilized a tool or there's like a risk inherent in the tool that you've committed yourself to the second you use it.

[Abu]

Yeah. And as always, there are many layers of context and subtext within this Dar Tar conversation that go beyond just the info dump about this Tleilaxu alliance and what Odrade has learned.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Hang tight. We're going to revisit this conversation in much more detail later in our takeaway. So for now, let's power through the rest of this chapter summary. So the argument kind of goes back and forth a little bit. The validity of this Tleilaxu alliance is still up for debate. Taraza is still pissed about it, and the argument stalls for the moment. So Taraza asks to have Shiana brought in. She's a factor in all of our schemes as well. Let's. Let's take care of this quote, summon Fiona. We must decide whether or not to abort that part of the project. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, Odrade has clearly been training Shiana well, because the young girl comes in and to her credit, she conducts herself very well under the intense and awe inspiring scrutiny of the literal Mother Superior.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Watching this scene take place, watching Taraza interact with Shiana, Odrade, in fact, recalls some of her own feelings as a young initiate of the sisterhood. Those feelings of how attractive those Bene Gesserit powers were for her at that age, how much she wanted those abilities herself. But also now that she's a Reverend Mother and has been part of the Sisterhood for years. She recognizes how naive Shiana must be in this moment. Quote, Shiana has not the vaguest appreciation of what she will pay for our gifts. Odrade thought the sisterhood never lets its initiates forget what they owed and must repay. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, I love, I love, love, love these peaks at cynicism within Bene Gesserit members.

[Abu]

Agreed.

[Leo]

Like people who are fully committed to like the Bene Gesserit's plans and understanding them and helping them along and even like the Bene Gesserit's noble purpose and all of that are still like looking at, you know, dreads are looking at Shiana going, she's got no clue what she's going to give up in exchange for the gifts that we have to give her. Like, she's got no clue. And similarly, you know, Teg also has his little bit. It's like in one of his first chapters he's like saying, say what you will about the Bene Gesserit and like whatever complaints you could like very validly make about the Bene Gesserit. I do appreciate that they have this consistent purpose toward like improving humanity. And I think generally Frank is doing a great job of giving these characters real agency within this organization that they still believe in. And that is a complicated and nuanced relationship that I think is like very well depicted here.

[Abu]

It's so cool. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I love this, I love this heretical thinking from a DRE that we get all throughout this book that asks us, the reader, to be skeptical of the sisterhood and perhaps ask things like how much do they take from you?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

In order for you to have these abilities like the voice, like Prana Bindu, et cetera. It kind of reminds me of military service to some extent. Especially like, I don't know, there was a time in Yongibu's life where I was talking to a Marine recruiter because I really wanted to enlist in the Marines and my parents are very anti military and all these years later I'm grateful that they stopped me. Basically they were just like, over our dead fucking bodies. Will you enlist in the, in the military? Yeah, but at that age, you know, you don't really realize what you're signing up for. Especially if that very young, impressionable, like not even graduated from high school yet. But you're talking to a Marine recruiter age like you, all it is is like video games and movies to you.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And you don't realize like how much of a sacrifice you're going to be making, you know, literally leading up to like life and limb could be the sacrifice you ultimately make. And that's not to discredit the many positive experiences that people have had with their military service. But I think when you're that young, you do not sign up for something like that with a level head.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And Shiana perhaps is in a similar position. You know, the Bene Gesserit are these badass women that she sees doing badass stuff but doesn't realize what a Drayden is all these years later. They will exact a price from you. A heavy price.

[Leo]

Yeah. And for all of the like noble promise and noble cause of, of military service, and this is true for countries all over the world, you still look at like what is post traumatic stress disorder? Like, and what, like how does that, what tax is that on the rest of your living years? Let's say you come back from a war zone unscathed, physically. Can you sleep at night? Like, are you permanently medicated? Are you like, like what support groups do you have to be in? Like, there are so. And then, and especially in the US we have an issue, you know, veterans not actually getting the need and the help and the, and the resources that they are sometimes literally promised and then other times are never, then it's never brought up.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Because no one thinks that that is going to be the thing. But yeah, that's a, that's a really great point. And I didn't know that. I didn't know you were, you were looking at Marine recruitment.

[Abu]

That's interesting. I mean, it was a very small stupid part of my young life that I look back on now and kind of now I'm as anti military as my parents. And so I get it now. But you know, as a 16 year old, I thought I was going to be some gung ho badass in the Marines just because of movies and video.

[Leo]

Games, but it is, you know, it's, it is just complicated. I mean, that's the thing, because I'm also very like anti. I'm born and raised in Berkeley, California. Are you kidding me?

[Abu]

Oh, you with your upbringing?

[Leo]

Yeah. Can you believe it? I'm a Buddhist and I'm against war. But I think, I think that is also, it has led me to not be properly appreciative of the people who do sacrifice and do join and do serve and everything. So just as a, as a more of a blanket stepping back statement. Thank you all. If you're listening and you're in the, and you're, you're Serving.

[Abu]

Thank you. Yeah, and that's also the thing. Like, yeah, we. The reality is, is, like, humans are awful and we live in an awful world and some people have to do awful things. And in order for the rest of us to live peaceful lives and that, that's a. That's a sacrifice I can't fathom making.

[Leo]

You know, and also, also, plus, come on, there. There are lots of, like, military service jobs where you're, like, doing it in, like, Germany. It's just like chilling in an office in Berlin and you're like, this is fine. So there's. It's a. It's a multifaceted, it's new industrial complex and everything. It's new.

[Abu]

We're not. We're not trying to say, like, anti military. Abolish the military.

[Leo]

Yeah. Although we could do with less spending, probably.

[Abu]

I would like less spending. I agree. Okay, back to this chapter.

[Leo]

Anyway, back to Dune.

[Abu]

It's a theme in the book.

[Leo]

Politics theme in the book, guys. We get. We talk politics because of the book's political. All right.

[Abu]

I love the comments we get that are like, ugh, I listened to you up until you got political. And I was like, have you fucking read Dune?

[Leo]

Have you read Dune?

[Abu]

What are you reading? Because I'm not reading the same book you're reading.

[Leo]

Let me introduce you to this guy. His name is Frank Herbert.

[Abu]

Jesus Christ.

[Leo]

Really opinionated.

[Abu]

Okay, back to the summary. Shiana is then sent away. She has clearly passed whatever test Taraza was having her undergo here in this interrogation. And in fact, it's clear to both Odrade and Taraza that this young girl is special, folks. Capital S. Special.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, what do we have here, darling? Perhaps someday a mother superior of extraordinary abilities. End quote.

[Leo]

Wow, that's crazy. Yeah. That's a bold statement to have literally Odrade and Tarazah watching you conduct yourself as, like, I don't know, nine years old. And you're like, yeah, she's got a crazy amount of potential. It's huge.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's huge. So to wrap up this chapter and our summary today, Taraza and Odrade briefly return to the issue of the Tleilaxu and the current predicament that the sisterhood finds themselves in. They debate about what to do, for example, with Duncan the ghola. Taraza wonders if Shiana will be able to kill Duncan for them. Maybe that's what they use her for. Odrade clearly disagrees with this and actually even snaps back at Taraza. She's like, okay, fine, you know, count your chickens and raise them yourselves. That's not the quote, but she basically snaps back and she's like, they always.

[Leo]

Say, count your chickens, raise them yourselves.

[Abu]

She disagrees is the point. The chapter ends then as Taraza summons Waff for a meeting, clearly setting up a Taraza and Waff rerun. Another moment for them to chat in a future chapter. Whatever happens, we must punish them, Taraza said, I see that clearly now. Heaven brought up here. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's where we wrap up chapter 36 and today's reading.

[Leo]

What a great set of chapters.

[Abu]

So good. I loved every single one.

[Leo]

Oh, that's so good.

[Abu]

All right, let's take a quick breather. As promised, we have a juicy takeaway to talk about. We're going to unpack this Taraza and oh Draid Dar Tar relationship further. So stick around, folks. We will be back shortly to get into our takeaway. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect protect the things you value most, File a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

Priceline. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you had a contentious conversation with someone who you thought you were friends once, but were you ever really friends? Getting into our takeaways today, Our one and only takeaway is a big one, folks, because we're going to dig a little deeper into Tarazah and Odraith's relationship because, wow, there's a lot. There's a lot going on in this chapter and also clearly off the page as well.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So in today's reading, we establish an interesting new facet of Darun'tara Right. We get the tension between Taraza's rage and Odrade's compassion. So after her chat with Belanda, Taraza is looking out at the orchard, trying to calm her mind, taking stock of the situation and thinking about all the things that she's got going on, trying to compose herself and forcing her loneliness away. Girls, same quote. The Mother Superior's authority over her sisters always became stronger when she returned from melancholy. Others had observed this, but only Odrade knew about the rage. End quote. And the source of this rage. So. So, right. We have a general perception of. Okay. The Mother Superior is withdrawn within herself. She's melancholic. She's got. She's got that ennui, you know, she's kind of chilling in the ennui. Oh. Dread knows that at the core of it is rage.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And that's interesting. It's. It's a secret that O'Draid is privy to that it seems like, broadly, no one else knows this or very few people know this.

[Abu]

Yeah, that was my read as well.

[Leo]

Here's the quote. Quote. O'Draid had clearly recognized on several occasions what sat at the core of the Mother Superior's behavior. A giant howl of rage against the uses others had made of her life. The power of that suppressed rage was daunting, even though it could never be expressed in a way that vented it. End quote.

[Abu]

Oh, my God. There's so much in, like, every sentence of that quote.

[Leo]

I know. Every single one of them. Every sentence is so dense. Yeah. So. So breaking it down. Dreads recognized this, which is also funny. Again, Ohrade. I think part of what makes Odrade, Odrade is that she is more observant, more deductive, more intelligent than many other people. So she has clearly recognized this secret core to Taraza's behavior.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Which also might speak to the fact that Taraza is, despite anything she would say, more vulnerable with outrage than with other people.

[Abu]

Yes, absolutely.

[Leo]

By the way, I find this utterly fascinating that, like, the Reverend Mother Superior feels rage at the uses others have made of her life. Right. The fact that she leads the oldest organization that specializes in using and manipulating other people, using their lives, using them and tossing them away.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Willy nilly. She's the head of this organization and she's like, I cannot believe other people have used my life. I cannot believe I've been manipulated. It's like, what? And I think that on one hand, this is a little bit the hypocrisy. Right. This is the sort of almost blind hypocrisy of the Bene Gesserit going. We don't see ourselves in these other organizations. We don't see ourselves committing the same sins that we, you know, condemn other people of committing. But on the other hand, it's totally possible that Taraza's aware that she is doing this like, underhanded, shitty thing to all these people, doing the same thing to them that has been done to her.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But also because she now in her position, recognizes the need for maybe I'm going to come into this room and kill Odrade. Because maybe that's what it takes, maybe that's what it's necessary to cement human survival for the next 30,000 years, 40,000 years. Maybe that's what's necessary. But also is this a good system if that's the sort of sacrifices we're having to make on a day to day basis? And maybe that's why she invites heresy. Maybe that's why she invites people to rebel against her, because she's saying, hey, I'm going to be maintaining the status quo because we know it works. But God damn it, I am rageful against it. I feel rage because of my part in it and how it affected me in my life. And I'm inviting someone to find a better way. Yeah, and maybe that's, that's at the heart. Yeah, maybe that's at the heart of Tarada Terada new third character. Maybe that's at the heart of Taraza and the way that she conducts herself.

[Abu]

Ah, that's such a great read, Leo. I agree completely. I think Taraza, if, dear reader, if you are reading this book, and in particular these chapters and being like, ugh, why is Taraza so annoying? She's like flip flopping constantly and seems like more confused than in control and can't seem to like make up her mind about Odrade. Yes, to all of those things. Like we are watching a mother superior who is, is split in two. A mother superior who, to your point, Leo, is maintaining the status quo of the Bene Gesserit, operating within that dogma as they have for millennia, while also stoking the flames of heretics who maybe counterbalance that dogma. She represents one side of the coin while also definitely toying with the other side as well. And so we are seeing a character who is split and we see that back and forth and the internal struggles within Taraza. And we, you know, we've joked about Taraza's in her office being stressed again for Another fucking chapter. But these chapters are so juicy because these are the chapters where we see that internal struggle. The two wolves, some might say within Taraza, battle each other out as she figures out what to do and what is best to do in the current situation, as the situation evolves. To be clear, like, shit has been hitting the fan, this whole book for Taraza, and she's had to, like, make it up as she goes along. And, you know, she's had to plan. She has a goal, she has a vision, but things keep happening, so she keeps having to pivot. So I really feel for Taraza in this book in a way that I didn't on my initial read years ago.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

On this reread, I'm deeply sympathetic to Taraza's position in this book.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, that's, I mean, I think that's exactly right. Like, I, I, I was there. I was like, fuck, another office chapter. Like, get me back to the cool training grounds with the face dancers and schwang you and like, get me back to that shit. That stuff. That's so cool. You know, even the priest stuff, I'm like, this is starting to feel a little bit stagnant. But, like, on this second read, I'm so much more attuned to, like, what are the characters feeling and where are the characters at mentally? And it's like, oh, almost beat for beat. You're right there with them. Like, you are there with Tag wanting shit to be more chill. Tag's like, can we get less action, please? And Taraza being like, I want to be able to make decisions confidently. Like, I want to be able to say, I know this is going to succeed in the next 60,000 years. But she doesn't know. And don't worry, the stakes aren't too high. It's just all of humanity's survival. Don't worry about it. So it's like, oh, it's so good.

[Abu]

It's good.

[Leo]

And you're right. I think that the Taraza office chapters on a first read were pretty testing of the patience. But now they're a lot more fun on a second read. For sure.

[Abu]

Yeah, for sure. Let's talk about a Draid a little bit, though, because that's Taraz's rage. Then we have Odrade's compassion, which, for what it's worth, we've basically been told about this whole book. We've been told about Odrade's very Atreides, like, nature, something that is constantly reiterated is her greatest flaw. Or at least the Bene Gesserit thinks so. It's something that the Bene Gesserit have tried to train out of her her whole life, or at least teach her how to clamp down on it, recall how some of her other memories are even closed off to her in some way.

[Leo]

Yeah, crazy.

[Abu]

Because they don't want an Atreides tapping into certain memories. Obviously we can see that. Like, most of that has worked, but it hasn't completely erased Odrade's Atreides nature. And truly, nothing ever could, given what we know about a dread and the badass that she is.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

For example, in those anxious musings on the rakis situation, Taraza in her office, she thinks, quote, one could not escape, though, the fact that critical decisions were being made on rakis by a person who suffered from those recurring Atreides flaws. Odrade had always displayed typical Atreides weakness. She had been positively benevolent to erring acolytes. Affections developed out of such behavior. Dangerous and mind clouding affections. End quote.

[Leo]

Dude, I love how entire sections are written in the tone of the character's judgment. Like, this is so derisive of ill being nice to people that stop being nice to people. You smile. Ew. You know, but it's like every like word that could be dripping with the sort of like, judgment is there. It's so good.

[Abu]

So good. And I also kind of love how, to your point, venomous the Bene Gesserit have become to the Atreides. Because, you know, look at the history. Look at what the fucking Atreides have done to the sisterhood for thousands of years. Yeah, of course you're going to be like, fuck those Atreides. And what's hilarious is that this Atreides like compassion and traits is something they also can't get rid of because they need it so badly. But boy, do they hate it. You know, it's kind of this, like, that they have to like, use this tool that they hate using so much. Much. It's a necessity. But that doesn't mean they have to be happy about it. And it doesn't mean they're not going to try and clamp down on it as much as they can. Now what's of course interesting is that these qualities, this compassion within Ohrade is what makes Odrade so useful and so dangerous to Taraza and the Bene Gesserit as a whole. And it's another instance to call back to a quote we shared earlier in the summaries. This is another instance where the Bene Gesserit are holding a burning club that might destroy them if wielded carelessly. Destroy them in the way that Paul Atreides backfired on them as well.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

Odrade is equally dangerous here, but of course, it is something that Taraza has relied on and utilized. This compassion that Atreides like loyalty within Odrade is something that Taraza has used to her benefit. Totally recall how a few chapters ago, Taraza had written a letter to Odrade and began it with the affectionate term dar.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, the DAR was a nice touch. Taraza thought Darren Tar that opening into Odraid's limited warmth would not be well shielded from the DAR and Tar direction. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. So here we have Taraza being like, ew, she's always suffered this fucking bleh. But then she'll be actively relying on and using and tapping into that compassion as a, as a means of control. But yeah, the fact that she's so derisive of this, like a tradies flaw, but then is very happy to utilize it and rely upon it as a thing and then when that thing doesn't exactly work perfectly, oh, she's like, kill it with fire. Kill it. And it's also not my fault. Kill it. And I'm blameless. Kill it. You know, it's. And that's also what Odrade has to do in this conversation is identify for Taraza her own part of all of this. You put me in coach, because you expected me to defy expectations, and I did. And even though your expectations, you didn't. You had the imagination to understand how brilliant I was going to be. That's not on me. That's on you.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And Purraza realizes that, but it's like something that she needs Audrey to point her to and shine the light on and go, this is what. This is what I did.

[Abu]

Exactly. Exactly. You're so right. O'Draid has to flip that back around on tar and be like, taraza, girl, you taught me how to backflip and you taught me how to dunk. And now that, now that I'm out on the court back flipping into dunks, you're mad at me. And Taraz is like, I didn't want you to do those things together.

[Leo]

You, from the half court, you dunk.

[Abu]

Why are you doing them at the.

[Leo]

Same time and from the half court line is crazy. I mean, just you're, you're, you're going over all the defense. It's. No one's happy. Everyone's like, this breaks the game.

[Abu]

It's juicy. I mean, once we. And in fact, we're talking about it. So let's get into it. Once these reverend mothers come face to face, that is what O'Draid has to practically do and be like, girl, you are the reason I'm doing what I'm doing. Why are you surprised by any of this? And it's fun because throughout this conversation, we get to see this rage and compassion come into play from both sides of the court. Here from Taraza and Odrade, for example, I found this moment really interesting. Odrade finds herself frustrated. She has to, like, take a breather because she's so annoyed that Tarazah is incapable of empathizing with a Gola's awakening experience. So Drade's trying to make a point and Taraza is just like, I don't get it. I don't get it. Quote. This was so difficult with someone who rejected affection, with someone who thrust outward from a core of rage. Taraza had no. No simpatico. She could not assume the flesh and senses of another except as an exercise in logic. End quote.

[Leo]

It's fascinating to think about that she's like, oh, yeah, Taraza, lovable psychopath. Like my buddy. My buddy the psychopath. It's a very interesting consideration. I think one of the tensions here is a desire to be flexible and a desire to be able to change up strategies. And what she's identifying is Taraza is incapable of doing what I'm talking about. It's not that she chooses not to because it's the best strategy. She is not capable of it.

[Abu]

Yes. She lacks the compassion to do it.

[Leo]

She lacks the compassion. She lacks. She had. She has no sympatico. I've checked for it. I've checked all of her pockets. No sympatico anywhere on.

[Abu]

Nowhere to be found.

[Leo]

Nowhere to be found. She did a 23andMe 20 0% simpatico. It's crazy. So the idea that she cannot. She had like, this is a weakness. This is a weakness. A diagnosed weakness with Tarazah and her tool belt that she carries into problem solving. And it's something that Odrade perhaps is one of the few people who recognizes. And that's fascinating because again, I think we are so ready to accept that the Reverend Mother Superior is the Reverend Mother Superior because she's great in all these different ways. That's true. But O'Draid has identified some glaring issue with Taraza's ability to go into the world and solve Problems. Fascinating.

[Abu]

Totally. And she's identified them. And, oh, boy, is she pushing the right buttons in this conversation. She continues to sort of trigger Taraza's rage to. To try and get her to understand and to try and try and get the Mother Superior to accept Odrade's actions.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's kind of incredible. I loved that exchange. For example, about customary practice. Right. There's that moment where Taraza literally has to, like, grit her teeth and agree with what O'Draid has said, because O'Draid basically calls out the Mother Superior as being too predictable. Girl, everyone knew you were going to do that. It's customary practice, isn't it? That the thing you always warn against? I have done a thing no one expected. I allied with the Tleilaxic that threw them off kilter. And now we have a ton of information about Axolotl tanks and the GOLA and the Honored Madre. You would have just done what is to be expected of a Mother Superior. You can't be mad about this.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It was a really great and juicy moment that I think really caught Taraza off guard.

[Leo]

Yeah. And in fact, catches her so off guard that Taraza's like, wait, holy shit, should you be the Reverend Mother Superior? And Odrade, it's like, no, like, we're. That don't. That's not. That's not the gambit here, you know, But I don't know, it is. It is interesting to watch Odrade rage, bait Terrazah and to kind of play that part. And even there's that moment where Odrade reveals that she has a source of info. Right. And Taraza's like, wait, how did you know that? Balanda, once you killed and, oh, trade says, quote, friendships can be a very valuable asset at times. Tar and cloak.

[Abu]

Wink.

[Leo]

It's so good.

[Abu]

It's so juicy. It's so juicy. And it's really impressive to watch Odrade really get under Taraza's skin in this way. You know, like, clearly Tarazah was the elder sister and the one who, you know, trained Odrade in many ways and brought her up. And now we kind of see that perhaps the people has surpassed the Master. And Odrade was really in control in this conversation in a way where Taraza continued to feel like she was on the back foot. And, you know, I'm left with a couple of. To sort of wrap up this takeaway. I am left with a couple of thoughts here. Now that we've unpacked and learned more about this Darren Tarr relationship. The question that comes to mind for me that's pretty much unanswered in this book is why exactly Tarazna and Odrade became so close in the first place. It's very clear, despite every, like, all the like, posturing that Taraza does about, oh, should I kill Odrade, Should I this, should I that? Despite the Odrade clapping back at Taraza, like, it's clear that these two are close, no matter what they might tell others or themselves. And it makes me wonder why that happened, given what we learned today. I have a theory, perhaps Headcanon, perhaps a little tinfoil Hattie. But I. You suspect a little bit that perhaps one factor, not the factor, but one factor of why Darun Tarr became a thing is that Taraza has this rage within her that she doesn't express because she's a goody two shoes Bene Gesserit. And you don't express feelings like that. You force loneliness, loneliness and rage and things away. You're ice cold at all times or whatever. Oh, Draid, on the other hand, is Atreides and can't help but have heretical thoughts, be compassionate, express certain things, push the boundaries of what it means to be a sister. Maybe they're close because Taraza recognized some of that. And through Odrade gets to vent a little bit of those emotions, maybe vent a little bit of that rage. Even if it's just vicariously, she gets to see Odrage do those things. And it lets her imagine what it would feel like to do that herself. And so maybe on some subconscious level, like Odrade is the heretic that Taraza wishes she could be but can't because of the way her life has gone and the way others have used her life and her position as Mother Superior and her loyalty. And maybe on a deep, deep level, like this friendship happened because Taraza recognized that in a young Odrade and took her in as a pupil. And that initial attraction might have been because of Odrade's quote unquote Atreides weaknesses.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Something that Tarazo wishes she could do. Just a thought. You know, given what we learned today, it's something that I was left pondering.

[Leo]

Yeah. I find myself, I wonder how much of it is just that Odrade, with her Atreides genetics and like, with the planning that the Bene Gesserit has been in charge of, and she's Teg's daughter, you know, she's someone who is primed to be a very potent Individual. And naturally, the person gunning for Reverend Mother Superior is going to want to keep tabs on her. But you're also right that I think at the heart of Taraza's plans is this recognition of needing opposition to be a better organization. And that's kind of like her modus operandi. And she's talked about that in her chapters where she said, well, this is kind of the culture that happens when the Reverend Mother Superior is this way. And if that's the case, then, yeah, of course, boosting up this person who's going to be very capable and very, like, honestly probably worth following and worth elevating and worth promoting, but also that has a very different way of approaching the world is a smart move. But I like that idea a lot of, like, if she can never vent this power of hers, she can never vent her rage, then what's the recourse? Well, you find someone that you can kind of vicariously live through. That's an interesting thought for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah. Just, you know, I don't think there's anything in the book that confirms this. And we don't really get. I mean, we don't at all get, like, flashbacks to young Dar and Tar, so we don't have a sense of their relationship at that age. But I wonder if there is some. A bit of subconscious emotion at play here that brought these two together and made them closer than your typical sister relationship would be, you know, your typical, like, colleagues or people on the council. And there's definitely a sense of loyalty and I think love. I don't think it's too bold to say that Dar and Tart love each other. I think there is a sense of, like, loyalty and love here that goes beyond typical sister relationships. We're practically in the final act of the book now, so it'll be fun to get through this final arc and see how Odrade and Taraza sort of maybe reconcile or come head to head on their differences and how that end game plays out. Because it really feels like we're at a make or break moment in the plans.

[Leo]

Yeah, the key logs are shifting, right? And the river will flow. We'll see. Or maybe they'll just, like, for six chapters, they just take turns breaking Waff's arms. This guy's fucking goofy, isn't he? His little goofy guy that. Stop, like, jokes on, you nerd. Well, we are going to share our spice morsels and wrap up, but before we do, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, we're going to be right back right after this. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. We have some spice morsels fresh out of the oven for you, so let's dig in. Morsel number one, bearing fruit. So I wanted to talk a little bit in this morsel about the orchards. There's a moment in today's reading where Taraza is pridefully looking out her office window over the orchards of Chapter House Planet. Yeah, and she thinks, quote, by their fruits ye shall know them. She thought some of the old religions can still produce wisdom. End quote. And of course, for folks who are familiar with the Bible, that quote would have stuck out to you. I did some Googling. I'm not the most familiar with the Bible, but I, you know, I've been around the block a couple of times, so I did some Googling. And this is clearly a reference to a Bible verse from. I don't know if I'm saying this right, but from Matthew 7:15 to 7:20, I believe are the verses. And I looked up the new King James version translation of what exactly the original quote is, and I wanted to share it in full because it's, like, so obvious and clicks into place once you hear it quote, beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even? So, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits, you will know them. End quote. That is the new King James version translation of that Bible.

[Leo]

I mean, I don't know, I feel like sometimes a bad tree goes to therapy a bit and after, like, working on itself for a while, can bear some good fruits. I mean, come on.

[Abu]

Yeah, for real. Yeah.

[Leo]

Give a tree a break.

[Abu]

I mean, my reaction is exactly the same as yours, but my own sort of religious biases aside, like from my limited understanding of the Bible and if I'm off base on this, I would love to be correct by our listeners who are more well versed, but from my understanding, the gist of this verse is basically that you'll be able to identify a good person or a true believer by the good fruits that they produce, AKA the good deeds that they do that are conducted in good spirits, that are in line with the religious teachings that lead to good results. As long as those three things are kosher, there's no reason to believe that this person isn't good. And also of course, like vice versa, bad deeds conducted in bad faith leading to bad results, or even good deeds conducted in bad faith leading to good results. Like if any parts of that puzzle are not good, then you have to be skeptical of that person and perhaps question whether they are who they say they are or whether they are the prophet they claim to be, et cetera, et cetera. Etc. I completely agree with you. Feels like a little overly simplistic of a moral binary here to say like good only does good, bad only does bad. But you know, I digress. That's just my own religious beliefs or lack thereof getting in the way. All of that. Set aside, this is very on brand, right? Like, yeah, this is a. This Bible verse is a warning against false prophets and how to identify false prophets. And given the themes around prophets and charismatic leaders that are sprinkled all throughout Frank's books and are part of the DNA of this story. My God. Of course, like this. This verse is one that makes sense in the Dune stories. What's kind of funny though is when you step back and realize how Taraza is thinking about it though, because 30,000 plus years, 35,000 plus years after those words were printed in a Bible, Taraza's interpretation feels kind of almost hilariously literal. Like she's looking at fruits in a forest and going, or fruits in an orchard and going, yeah, ye shall know them by their fruits, bro. Look at that apple out there.

[Leo]

Look at those good trees.

[Abu]

Delicious red delicious. I don't know any other apple types.

[Leo]

Granny Smith.

[Abu]

Granny Smith.

[Leo]

Woo. Sour, shitty green. I think that's the name.

[Abu]

So two ways you could interpret Taraz's thoughts here, right? One is that perhaps she is just misinterpreting the original Bible verse and thinking of it literally as fruit in an orchard. Which could show how religious doctrine and wisdom sort of gets twisted and lost over many millennia. 35,000 years after anyone has read these words in the Bible. Yeah, you know, some of those words are going to get lost in translation. The other interpretation, and for me the more interesting one, perhaps, is that maybe we give Taraza a bit more credit. Maybe she's not misinterpreting that Bible verse and instead she's looking out at this meticulously kept orchard, which is representative of the sister's good deeds done in good spirit, leading to good results. Aka, look how well we take care of these delicious red apples and shitty green sours. Just like how we take care of humanity. Go us pat ourselves on the back. Yeah, so maybe it's not so literal as, like, fruit equals fruit. And she does understand that, like, fruit equals good deeds. Either way, whichever way you interpret that. It is fun to consider why Frank would insert this Bible verse and this quote and this warning against false prophets in the book. Because on a meta level, I like to think that this is Frank, once again, as he's done throughout this whole book, asking us to consider the original Bible verse's warnings against false prophets. Is Taraza, and by extension the entirety of the Bene Gesserit a false prophet? Do their claims and their beliefs and actions align? Is it good deed done in good faith leading to good result? Or is any part of that puzzle for the Bene Gesserit false? Frank asking us to be skeptical and perhaps toy with our own heretical thoughts about the sisterhood, which I really loved.

[Leo]

Pretty good. I think that's spot on. Yeah. Super interesting. Or even just to quote like, again, prophets, warnings, messiahs, anyone claiming to have all the answers, it's like, yeah, do you?

[Abu]

Do you right Question it?

[Leo]

Well, our second morsel today. The nose causes the tail. So in today's final chapter, we get this epigraph about a man experiencing a mule every day from nose to tail through the slats in Like a fence, and one day leaps to his feet, quote with the light of discovery in his eyes, and he shouted for all who could hear him. It is obvious. The nose causes the tail. End quote. I did it. We were all wondering. Now, this is an excerpt from the oral history, and this is a parable. And it has some, like, juicy depth to it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

As it relates to wider dune themes. And we wanted to take a second to chat about this fun epigraph because, again, Frank is. Frank's great with the way that he kind of introduces us to themes, so a couple of possible meanings and resonances with this parable. Right? This man, he has this experience. He has this human experience. He sees the nose, he sees the rest of the donkey, sees the tail. He has this. He's kind of demonstrating this human desire to explain and label natural experiences. Right. This is an experience. You're rooted in real life and everything, but you're giving it a name and a label that actually goes beyond the truth of the situation and misses the point. It's like an over reliance on words and an over reliance on cognitive labels. It is an over reliance on the human perspective of, I'm on this side of the fence, so I know there's a nose and I know there's a tail, and I know the nose causes the tail. Like, that's one resonance, which I thought was kind of cool.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Another possibility, another way that you could read this is the danger of falling on linear causality, saying, I know where you are seeing the nose and then you're seeing the tail. I know that one will always lead to the other without variance and without variation. And especially in a universe where some people are literally having dreams about the tail when they're like 8 years old on Caladan going, I foresee tails everywhere. And you're like, well, then there's going to be noses. I guess. Like, obviously in a universe that has prescience, that sort of belief system is especially. You can see the holes in it. Right. Just because you see this doesn't always mean that.

[Abu]

Yeah. You know, most of us have practiced that to some extent. Like, if you. If you've ever had a lucky pair of socks, you're practicing linear causality. You're saying, the I get lucky when I wear these socks, so I should wear the socks to get lucky. And that's not always the case. One does not always lead to the other.

[Leo]

Right. Cause, causation, correlation, that whole. That whole bag of pickles.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah. So for sure, that's something I think is familiar to many of us. And the other thing to say is, like, once the nose has been seen, is there any delaying or diverting the tail? Is the tail always. This guy has decided, once you see the nose, you're going to see the tail. But is this a lesson? Is this a parable about predeterminism? Once you've seen the nose, will you always see the tail? Once you have seen the sign of this person's rise to fanatical power, will you always see the collapse of that power structure? Or are there ways to change it? And suddenly I'm having flashbacks to Paul Muad'dib Atreides, who's attempting to find the limits of I've seen the tale. How much can I change what comes before it and how much can I change it? How much flexibility can I have if Leto, too, was the nose, when has the tale passed? And these are the sorts of questions that I think this parable raises, which I thought was kind of cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, there's a lot of layers to it, and I wanted to jump in and quickly share this quote from God Emperor of Dune, because this parable immediately made me think of Leto, too, ranting about the mechanical universe. Quote Leto blinked at him, thinking. I, on the other hand, feel that words are mostly useful if they open for me a glimpse of attractive and undiscovered places. But the use of words is so little understood by a civilization which still believes unquestioningly in a mechanical universe of absolute cause and effect, obviously reducible to one single root cause and one primary seminal effect. End quote yeah, that's an idea that Leto touches on a number of times in God Emperor of Dune. But that's a real philosophy, right? It's called mechanism, and it's something that has underpinned human philosophical thought and scientific study for decades now. And to oversimplify it, I'm no philosopher, I'm no scientist, but based off of my research for today's episode, to oversimplify this idea of mechanism. In short, it's the belief that the universe operates through these complex processes of cause and effect, and we as humans can define and study them. If we see an end result of something, something else must have caused it, and we can science and think and study our way to that root cause, and also vice versa. If we know a cause, we can then predict reliably the effect that will happen because of it. That obviously is an idea that Leto and Frank spent all of God, Emperor of Dune rejecting, basically. And Frank, in fact, has spent most of the Dune saga rejecting the idea of cause and effect and relying on it. It's something that Leto often writes about in his journals, the idea that there is a magical quote, unquote magical, unobservable, undefinable universe that may or may not ever be open to human consciousness or human understanding. But it is a part of the universe that is undeniable and one that we must embrace in order to live our full human existence. And so this parable of the donkey made me think of that as well. You know, like you can look through a fence and think you understand the cause and effect of why a tail appears, but there is a larger truth that will never be clear to you until you're able to break down the fence and see the larger truth. Or maybe the fence is immovable and you'll never see the larger, larger truth. So you shouldn't make the assumption about the tale. And it really harkened back to that idea for me from the previous book.

[Leo]

Yeah. I mean, I can't help but now that we've done our interviews with Frank Herbert, the couple episodes we did, Frank was that guy who called every card in a 52 card deck accurately and was marked by that moment of. That's an inexplainable moment of just. I don't know what. But that's out there in the universe. And I think when you get too reductive and you say, well, our explanations for nature is nature, that's when you've lost the game. That's when you've lost your way. Which of course all goes to Alan Watts too, where it's like you can use it in kind of fun, abstract ways. The fact that we have arisen from a. From an inorganic world and fact that we love means that love is an inherent byproduct of inorganic life, inorganic worlds. You know, it's like there. There are some fun ways you can twist all of that, but like, that's also kind of the issue with a purely mechanical approach to explaining things, because it's just, it. It doesn't account for everything that we can observe today, which is. Which is fine. So anyway, very, very cool. Love. Love getting into this stuff. And ultimately, I think it's all very relevant to our characters and kind of the things they're going through.

[Abu]

Yeah, I hope we didn't lose the listener who hates when we get into philosophy.

[Leo]

Get back to politics. Go back to talking about PTSD and whether or not the army is a good force. Boo.

[Abu]

Stop talking about philosophy. That's not what I redone for.

[Leo]

Inside of every fan base, there's two types of listeners, and the one that continues is the listener you feed, you know.

[Abu]

All right, that wraps up today's episode about these wonderful chapters. Obviously, there was so much we wanted to geek out about from just three chapters of this book. My God. For the next episode, folks, we have homework for you. There's more book to read yet and more philosophy and or politics to talk about. So for the next episode, for the next book club episode, make sure you have read chapters 37, 38, and 39. And if your copy of the book is different from ours, then read through the chapter that ends on the sentence quote. She realized then that Gamu had touched her more deeply than any experience since her first days in the Bene Gesserit schools. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting. It's hazing she remembers getting hazed into that sorority at the Bene Gesserit schools. She's like, oh, my God, it's affected me. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, if you want to support us, here are some great ways of doing that. And of course, the best way to support us, the best way to show that you appreciate what we do here at Gom Jabbar is to become a patron. And of course, you can also check out our merchandise at our merch store. It's all Dune themed stuff. It's pretty sweet. Those links are in our show notes.

[Abu]

And of course, we love to hear from you. We've talked about a lot of dense ideas and topics today, and we'd love to hear your takes on them too. So email us at comp jabbar podcastmail.com, send us your thoughts, send us your questions, and of course, New Year, same prompt. Send us cute pictures of your pets.

[Leo]

Yeah, that'll never change.

[Abu]

Come to our podcast gmail dot com.

[Leo]

Oh, man, I am ravenously hungry. I am. I've been. We've been recording at a fast speed.

[Abu]

We have.

[Leo]

The guy's hand still hasn't gotten to the button.

[Abu]

Right. Yeah, according to the timer that I'm looking at, we've been recording for three seconds.

[Leo]

Yeah, if. If that. I mean, yeah, it's Mintat projection. Yeah, I'm hungry.

[Abu]

It all goes back to that mentat projection rate. 5 stars on Apple Podcast.

[Leo]

Does that work?

[Abu]

I hope that works. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast, controls the universe. Will see you on the golden path.