Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 15)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Summary of "Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 15)"

Release Date: June 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo delve into the penultimate chapters of Frank Herbert's "Heretics of Dune." As they navigate through the intricate plot and deep lore, they explore significant themes, character developments, and the overarching philosophies that make the Dune universe so captivating.

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Chapter Summaries

Chapter 43: Teg Confronts the Honored Matre

The hosts begin by summarizing Chapter 43, where Muzaffar and Teg arrive at a heavily fortified old bank controlled by the Honored Matre. This location, previously thought to be a Bene Gesserit safe house, reveals lapses in Bene Gesserit intelligence.

• Abu [05:56]: "This is a Mission Impossible scenario with laser defense systems."

• Leo [07:06]: Describes the Honored Matre leader’s "orange flecked mood ring eyes" that visibly indicate her anger and control.

Muzaffar's attempt to seduce the Honored Matre ends disastrously, leaving him regretful and defenseless. Teg, exhibiting his Bene Gesserit training and second sight, prepares to eliminate the threat with calculated brutality.

• Abu [09:02]: "This is the oldest drug in the history book," referring to the Honored Matre's use of sexual control.

Teg’s internal struggle and eventual decision to kill the Honored Matre illustrate his transformation into a formidable force, echoing the heavy burdens of prescience seen in previous characters like Leto Atreides.

• Leo [12:00]: "He has a happiness and a self-fulfillment that you can only dream of."

Chapter 44: Reverend Mother Taraza’s Reflections

Moving to Chapter 44, the focus shifts to Reverend Mother Taraza on Rakis. She contemplates the precarious balance of power and the dire consequences of any misstep.

• Abu [15:23]: "Things could go sideways at the slightest mistake."

Taraza anticipates significant events, including a holy dance by Shiana and presentations by priests, underscoring the fragile dynamics at play.

During a pivotal scene, the Honored Matre launch a surprise attack, resulting in Taraza’s near-death experience. In her final moments, she expresses triumph, hinting at the culmination of her meticulously laid plans.

• Abu [23:16]: "I have won."

This moment signifies a turning point, revealing Taraza’s strategic genius and the underlying tensions that threaten the stability of the Bene Gesserit order.

Chapter 45: Teg’s Rampage and Discovery of No-Ships

In Chapter 45, Teg fully embraces his lethal capabilities, embarking on a relentless killing spree against the Honored Matre within the fortified building.

• Leo [27:05]: "He's casually murdering almost everyone in this headquarters building."

His actions expose gaps in the Honored Matre’s defenses and highlight Teg’s enhanced abilities, including his ability to perceive no-ships, a significant revelation in the Dune universe.

• Abu [38:08]: "Teg can see them. And he's like, I mean, I'm looking at that pretty number over there."

Teg’s discovery that no-ships are detectable marks a critical shift in the balance of power, setting the stage for the final confrontations in the upcoming episode.

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Takeaways: The Power and Peril of Sexual Energies

The hosts dedicate a substantial portion of the episode to discussing the theme of sexual energies as a tool for control and manipulation within the Dune universe.

Bene Gesserit vs. Honored Matres Perspectives

• Bene Gesserit: View sexual drive primarily as a means for procreation and the continuation of humanity. Their disciplined approach respects the primal forces, understanding both their potential and their dangers.

  • Leo [46:19]: "They prefer the term procreation. It has many facets and offshoots and has apparently unlimited energy."

• Honored Matres: Utilize sexuality as a blunt instrument for power, focusing solely on pleasure and control without regard for its role in procreation or its broader implications.

  • Abu [48:54]: "For them, sex is merely a tool for pleasure, for extreme pleasure… a tool for control."

Frank Herbert uses these contrasting viewpoints to explore the complexities of human desires and the consequences of their manipulation by powerful institutions.

Implications for the Dune Universe

The exploitation of sexual energies by the Honored Matres leads to significant resistance and counterforces, ultimately threatening the very fabric of humanity.

• Abu [59:56]: "The Honored Matres are setting up a dam, a blockage in the river that could lead to the river drying up and fading forever."

This theme serves as a cautionary tale against extreme ideologies and the dangers of institutions attempting to control fundamental human drives.

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Spice Morsels: Light-Hearted Interludes

Interspersed between the serious discussions, Abu and Leo share "Spice Morsels"—short, engaging segments that delve into interesting details from the chapters.

Jacaranda Plants and Darning

• Jacaranda Plants: The hosts explore the significance of jacaranda (referred to as "hakaranda") trees mentioned in the book, tying them to real-world botany and cultural references like Pixar’s Encanto.

  • Abu [71:44]: "I've got a warm summery climate as well, which is very nice."

• Darning: They explain the art of darning, a meticulous method of repairing fabric, highlighting its mention in the book as a symbol of attention to detail and the facade of the lavish establishment.

  • Leo [78:55]: "To mend with interlacing stitches."

These segments add a layer of relatability and depth to the discussion, making the lore more tangible for listeners.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As Abel and Leo wrap up the episode, they emphasize the fragile balance between powerful institutions like the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres, both of which wield significant influence yet harbor inherent flaws. The impending final chapters promise to unravel these complexities, leaving listeners eager for the concluding episode.

• Leo [85:15]: "Things are coming apart as well."

The takeaway underscores Frank Herbert's enduring message about the perils of unchecked power and the necessity of understanding and respecting the fundamental aspects of human nature.

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Notable Quotes

• Abu [09:02]: "This is the oldest drug in the history book."

• Leo [12:00]: "He has a happiness and a self-fulfillment that you can only dream of."

• Abu [23:16]: "I have won."

• Abu [59:56]: "The Honored Matres are setting up a dam…"

• Leo [78:55]: "To mend with interlacing stitches."

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Final Remarks

In "Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 15)," Abu and Leo adeptly dissect the intricate layers of Frank Herbert’s narrative, blending detailed plot analysis with thematic exploration. Their insightful commentary not only enriches the understanding of "Heretics of Dune" but also highlights the timeless relevance of its core messages.

Listeners, whether long-time Dune enthusiasts or newcomers, will find this episode both informative and engaging, providing a comprehensive overview that enhances the reading experience without requiring prior knowledge of the podcast.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Abu]

What did you wish to listen to, sir?

[Leo]

A great deal of Gom Jabbar episodes. I will leave the choice to you. About twice as much book clubs as Lore Deep Dives. No news.

[Abu]

What do you mean by a great deal?

[Leo]

Keep playing them until I tell you to stop. Or until you feel I've overstepped your generosity.

[Abu]

Never stop playing them.

[Leo]

Sounds like a typical road trip to me.

[Abu]

Back to back to back to back.

[Leo]

Yo, we all down for another Gom Jabbar episode. Leo, stop. Please.

[Abu]

Leo. Can we listen to the audiobook, please?

[Leo]

No, no. Two more. Two more.

[Abu]

To know what happens in Onyx Store.

[Leo]

This one's about ec.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Believe it or not.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're at the penultimate episode of this Heretics of Dude Book Club.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. That's nuts. I feel like we started this book two and a half years ago.

[Abu]

Yeah, certainly. What a dense book. What a fun journey it's been. I'm excited to debrief about it once we have completed because I think my feelings have shift. Not dramatically, but they have shifted in significant ways about this book than, you know, things I've said in the past. But that's for later. That's once we finish this book. Today we have some chapters and some reading and some big themes and ideas to get through.

[Leo]

Indeed we do. Before we get into it, shout out. Mapes is over in the corner looking at us expectantly. Let's take care of our housekeeping. And to kick that off, spoiler warning, as usual. This is a book club, folks. No spoilers. Beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far, if you are caught up with us, you are safe to listen. So enjoy.

[Abu]

And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. That's Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchins, Seth Reddin, Greer.

[Leo]

She. Oh, hot dog. They're all regulars at our restaurant. And you know what?

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

We trust them with our lives.

[Abu]

We trust them. Yeah, we trust them. They're not. They're not going to rat out the Bashar.

[Leo]

No.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

None of these.

[Abu]

They would never.

[Leo]

No, they're perfect. They're great.

[Abu]

No, no. They served with us at Rent a Thai.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So we know them quite well, and.

[Leo]

They would support the Bashar's, like, creative endeavors where, like, if he launches a podcast, I'm sure they would become patrons of him, you know.

[Abu]

Oh, right away at the drop of a hat.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And, you know, if we wanted to switch careers and maybe steal a no ship, I feel like our patrons would. They'd back us up.

[Leo]

Front lines right there with us. Yep. They were like, we already brought weapons. We're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Get the guns. Whoa.

[Abu]

Thank you so much to our quiz ads, Haderach level patrons who are apparently ready to go to war with us.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But also a huge thank you to all of our patrons at every level. Y' all truly help make this show possible.

[Leo]

Indeed. Now, if you out there in listener land can't become a patron today, even for as low as $5 a month, you can contribute with a one time tip. We have a spice. Buy me a coffee. Buy me a spice coffee. Link in the show notes. Check that out if you just want to make our year a little sweeter with a one time donation.

[Abu]

That's right. Okay, housekeeping. Out of the way. Shout out. Mapes has stopped looking at me from the corner of the room.

[Leo]

She's back to knitting.

[Abu]

Back to knitting. Let's talk about the game plan for today's episode, which is no different than any other book club episode. We will start with a summary of today's reading the three chapters for today. Then we'll dive into a big takeaway. This one is all about sex, but maybe not in the way you think. And then finally, we'll chomp down on some yummy spice morsels that you did some really fun research on that I'm excited to talk about.

[Leo]

Yep.

[Abu]

So all of that coming up after a short little break. So buckle up, folks. We're nearing the end of this book. We'll see you soon. Summer's here, and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Sleep, Princess Polly, and Madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.

[Leo]

Hey there, travelers. Kaley Cuoco here. Sorry to interrupt your music. Great artist, BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got Millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels.

[Abu]

And up to 50% off flights.

[Leo]

So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline. Go to your happy price. Priceline. Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you're ready for these penultimate chapters. Very exciting stuff. Our first chapter today, chapter 43. And we are with Muzaffar and Teg. They are arriving at this heavily fortified old bank building. It's got gardens, it's got laser defense systems.

[Abu]

Right? Very Mission Impossible.

[Leo]

Very Mission Impossible. I imagine someone doing capoeira through the, through the lasers. I think that's an Ocean's Eleven reference tag. Recognizes this as one of the old Bene Gesserit safe houses. So clearly Bene Gesserit intel is way fucking off. Wow, just like all of them are compromised.

[Abu]

When did that spreadsheet get updated last? Jesus Christ.

[Leo]

I know, right? But redeeming little half clause in this chapter he mentions it was a recent update. This isn't like a long standing compromise location. This is a recent development. So very true. Not too much shade thrown at the Benny Jesuit, but still, come on, fucking update your spreadsheets. Good Lord. So this bank is controlled by the Honored Matre. And heading in Muzaffar is like Bruh Tag, you gotta, you have to, when you meet this person, you're going to meet this Honored Matre. You have to be absolutely obedient. Do not refer to her as anything other than Honored Matre. And in fact, we are going to put you in the cleanest Bashar drip. We've got an old replica of your costume. You're going to wear this because she likes things to look pretty. Right? And throughout these scenes, throughout this whole sequence, Teg is constantly checking in with his kind of second vision that he's developed over the last few chapters. Double checking to make sure if something's about to happen, is this going to be a life threatening thing that he has to respond to or is he good to hold back for a little bit? That being said, he is at any moment ready to go into Super Saiyan Miles Turbo Tag mode on a dime if he need be. Yeah, he's, he's, he just recharged his turbotag battery with that big old meal. Much to the shock of the server.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

So the Honored Matre comes in. She's ancient, she's commanding, she's intense. She's got these like orange flecked mood ring eyes that like get all orange if she's angry and are normal if she's just haughty and annoying. And yeah, her eyes will tell you literally if you're fucked. It's like, oh, bright orange. You're fucked. You're done, son. Now Muzaffar leaves them to get a little reward in a back room somewhere. About to hear some chicken skin slapping on skin obnoxiously from the blue broom closet. And Tag and Honored Matre, Tag and the Honor Mater start to have their conversation. And she reveals her order's philosophy of sexual control and the disdain with which they think of all that muck out there. All those fucking disgusting peasants out in the streets of Yasai and the broader universe. And quote, in essence, she said, power such as ours is allowed to become the substance of survival for many people. Then the threat of withdrawal is all that's required for us to rule. End quote. Whoa. And I like the line. Ted goes, have you discovered a new drug? And she goes, no, an old drug.

[Abu]

This is the oldest drug in the history book.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's right there. Meanwhile, Mufar comes back. His cheeks are all flushed, his eyes are bright, his hair is tussled. He's like, that was east.

[Abu]

He's got that post orgasm skin glow. You know, we all know what we're talking about.

[Leo]

Yeah. He's also got some regrets. He's just like, ah, maybe I shouldn't be smoking a cigarette.

[Abu]

That post nut clarity. He's like, wait a second, what was I thinking?

[Leo]

These women are dangerous. They're hot. They're hot. For sure they're hot. But whoa, I am playing with fire.

[Abu]

We've all been there. That cloud of horniness, you know, it's can relate.

[Leo]

Muzaffar can relate 100%. Meanwhile, it's clear that this little layabout that he did in the broom closet, that was just a deposit for a job well done bringing in. That's his kind of bounty.

[Abu]

Wow. Gross.

[Leo]

Now the Honored Matre gives Teg basically a non choice. She's like, hey, I know you're like fiercely independent, super smart and generally hard to reign in. I want you fully reined in and fully obedient.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Or, and we'll like give you sex and stuff or we'll kill you tags like cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. That's not really. That's not really a choice. And Tag also realizes at this point, using his kind of Bene Gesserit skills.

[Abu]

That this is Great.

[Leo]

While the Honored Matre are a threat, at the end of the day, they are like super pitiable, sad, like addicts basically, of power and of sexuality. But even as just not even for the joys of the action, but of what it means in like a power dynamic way. Having basically fallen victim to their own hubris. Right. Their wax wings are softening in the hot heat of the sun.

[Abu]

Okay, not a Icarus analogy. Pop up.

[Leo]

He would fly away from this woman. Quote. Teg took some reassurance from the realization that neither of these two really enjoyed life. The Honored Matre and Muzaffar had forgotten or most likely abandoned everything that supported the survival of joyous humans. End quote.

[Abu]

Brutal.

[Leo]

Brutal. I also, I really appreciate that. We get the sense that Teg's gearing up to kill everyone. Teg's like, I mean, I'm going to kill you all. So at least. I mean, at least you don't have good lives. Like, he's kind of like, no, it's okay to kill Muzaffar because, man, this guy's fucking evil and he's not even having a good life. So, yeah, it's kind of doing him a favor. Now, in response to all of this, like, evil villain speeching, he flashes them this like, perfectly Bene Gesserit devised smile. Just being like, I have a happiness and a self fulfillment that you can only fucking dream of. It's like the biggest middle finger he can summon for these people.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Basically designed to elicit like, an unexpected reaction from this Honored Matre. Quote.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

It was a smile full of compassion, of understanding and real pleasure in his own existence. He knew it for the most deadly insult he could hurl at them. And he saw it hit, end quote. Get fucked so good, dude. This is a wordless diss track. He's like, I just. I found the flaw in your lives and here it is.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And there is this moment when she nearly goes off on him, but she's like, no, wait, that is pretty good. Good job. Hey, do you want us to, like, bring you a younger Honored Matre who can, like, sexually subdue you? And Tag's like, yeah, bring her in. And as she's on her way, he kind of realizes the overall threat that he's in. And he's like, if they bring her to me, it'll be easier because then I can kill her very quickly and not have to, like, hunt down more Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. One less body I'll have to go hunt down.

[Leo]

Exactly. And he, in this moment, also sees in his double vision, the necessity of all this violence to get out of this situation, but also, just like his survival and everything moving forward requires that he do all of this killing in a way that feels kind of contrary to this guy who's won these bloodless battles in the past. Like, Teg is the ultimate diplomat, and yet here's a situation in which the only thing he can do is, like, snap necks and fucking kill everyone, even the security camera operator in the fucking Insta. It's like any of those reservations are paling in comparison to the vision and the knowledge that he has to do this because if he doesn't, the plan goes awry, right?

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

The vision also kind of brings up some empathy for him, for the God Emperor, for his ancestor, Leto Atreides. And I thought this was really.

[Abu]

This line stood out to me.

[Leo]

Yeah, this was really kind of tugged at the heartstrings. For each one he killed, more would have to be killed. He saw the necessity of it, though, as he saw at last the tyrant's design. The pain he could see for himself almost made him cry out, but he held it back. End quote. It's that feeling of like, oh, shit, this is what prescience is. This is the realization that certain things have to be done, no matter how monstrous they are. And his own feeling of like, I'm not going to be okay with this. This is going to be painful for me. Is. Doesn't matter. You still have to do it.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

So there's some simpatico there with the tyrant, with God Emperor.

[Abu]

Exactly. He's feeling maybe, you know, 4% of what Leto II felt over 3,500 years. Yeah, I thought it was a powerful moment, for sure. Okay, moving on to our Next chapter, chapter 44, we are back on Rakis.

[Leo]

We rejoin Reverend Mother Tarazah, a Taraza favorite character. Glad she's around for a long time. So excited. Yeah.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh. Can't wait to see where her journey takes her.

[Leo]

Just the beginning.

[Abu]

That's what I was really rooting for, Taraza here. Taraza is at the penthouse at Daraspalat, where we were recently. She's looking out over the desert, sort of reflecting on where things are at the moment, considering the sort of delicate balance of the situation they all find themselves in. Right. Things could go sideways at the slightest mistake. You know, we're really at an inflection point here in all of Taraza's designs and really the fate of the known universe as we know it, of humanity. Today's events on the agenda on the calendar for today include a holy dance by Shiana as she summons a worm, Another presentation for the priests, and for waff.

[Leo]

Okay. Matinee viewing. Cool, cool.

[Abu]

And, you know, that's cool. They're getting ready for that. Taraza is waiting for everyone to arrive. Some vios, very important observers, will be arriving shortly via ornithopter. So as Tarazah is just kind of waiting for everyone to come in, she does some wool gathering. And we get some interesting ideas here from her thoughts. In particular, she thinks about Shiana's recent sexual education. Something, if you'll recall, they've had to sort of fast forward because Shiana has.

[Leo]

Now witnessed the honored madre, Just the craziest universe. Sex in the.

[Abu]

Exactly. So the young girl kind of has to get bumped up to the 202 lessons as quickly as possible because she has seen too much. Taraza thinks back to a particular moment recently where she actually kind of spied on one of Odrade's lessons to Shiana. Odrade has been the one tutoring Shiana in all of this. And we get some really thematically resonant details throughout this Odrade Shiana lesson. I wanted to call out two quotes in particular. One is interesting because it kind of redefines the Golden Path for us and shows us perhaps the Bene Gesserit view of the Golden Path, which we'll dig further into in our takeaways. What was his Golden Path but a vision of sexual forces at work, recreating humankind endlessly? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The proliferation of humanity, the continued existence of humanity.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think one of the things we'll talk about in the takeaways is this idea of procreation and the purpose of the sexual drive is to continue your genetic line and to continue the species. And ultimately, that is one way of looking at Leto going, I need humanity to always be. And the thing that would stop that, whether it's stagnation that causes a decline and procreation or whatever, the hunter seeker, biological hunting, hunter seeker thing from the.

[Abu]

Fucking external threat, internal threat, biological threat, whatever it is, any threat that stops humans from continuing to exist.

[Leo]

So it's interesting to kind of think about it as this. Like, yeah, the Golden Path always had its sort of weird little leg flippers dipped in the sexual forces of humanity and how it would continue by harnessing those sexual forces or not. So maybe that's also perhaps an argument for why these last two books do focus on sex and sexuality so much, because this was Always going to be a piece of the puzzle that needed to be figured out by someone.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. And it's certainly the Bene Gesserit view. The Bene Gesserit worldview. So interesting that o' Drai defines the Golden Path in this way to Shiana. Here's another quote I wanted to also point out from this section. Odrade touches on, like, big ideas that we've kind of talked about a thousand times at this point on the podcast. In particular, she mentions stagnation and amtal.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

When she shockingly tells Shiana that the Honor Matres are actually a good thing for us. They're a good thing for the future of the sisterhood.

[Leo]

I loved this, like, the fact that Shianna was like, what do you mean? And Tarazah thinks to herself, what do you mean? Like, they're both a little like, what the fuck, Odrade? What are you talking about?

[Abu]

Yeah. Although Taraza's reaction is not. What are you talking about? Taraz's reaction is, holy shit, how much has a drade figured out?

[Leo]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[Abu]

Because Taraza has also figured this out, that the Honored Matres are a weird, necessary threat for the future of the sisterhood. And she's got other plans.

[Leo]

Well, Taraza's in the best position to understand that because she's also the one cultivating heretics within her own ranks. She understands the power of opposition at a, like, cellular level to the point where, like, Balanda doesn't.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

And other people on the Bene Gesserit don't. And even o' Draid, who understands intellectually, I shouldn't have love in my heart for anybody, but I'm letting it exist because it challenges these other things. And overall, that can drive me to a higher level of understanding.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So cool.

[Abu]

So here's the exact quote from Madrade about the Adermatre. The core is static. Shiana. We have been almost at a standstill for thousands of years. Life and movement are out there with the people of the Scattering who resist the whores. Whatever we do, we must make that resistance even stronger. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so good.

[Abu]

Stagnation. We've been at a standstill. The core is static. Amtal. This existential threat to us is how we will continue to evolve our own resistance and growth. You know, she's touching on all of these very dune ideas that have been in this series, that have been at the heart of this series since literally the first book.

[Leo]

I can't help but think so Amtal, the idea of finding the breaking point of something by testing it extensively so that you can understand its true nature.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

There have been conversations where people are saying, what could possibly. I think Lucilla had the thought, what could possibly subvert a Bene Gesserit? With all of the Bene Gesserit training and other memory and everything, what could possibly break a Bene Gesserit's conditioning and break her dogmas and her loyalty to the sisterhood's vision and whatever it is, is out there and gives more of a sense of what the Bene Gesserit as a sisterhood truly is. And I think that's where Odrade's 100% right. She's saying these things. These people have come back to our little quadrant of the galaxy and now we get to learn ourselves and we get to find our way forward by finding our breaking point and adapting. And that's what life is and that's what living is.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So cool. Love that.

[Abu]

By adapting or dying, you know, it's an ultimatum. Survive or die in the face of this existential extinction level threat. Now moving on from Taraza's reveries and her thoughts. We're back in the present day and the doctors have arrived. Taraza can hear them approaching in the distance. The Vios are finally here. We're finally going to get on with this whole shiana dance thing.

[Leo]

Yeah. Wrong direction, though, so. But I mean, probably nothing. Probably nothing.

[Abu]

Yeah, you know. You know how tourists are, Leo. They gotta go see the sights. So the. I'm sure the pilot just took them around the. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. They cut off the legs.

[Abu]

Absolutely crazy. Taraza has like one second to think, like, that's weird that they took the wrong direction before her fucking legs are blown off by lay's gun fire. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

It's a wild scene. They're under attack. It's the honored matres in these ornithopters. Shit. Absolutely hits the fan. And what I found super fascinating is as Taraza is lying there, clearly dying, these are her final moments. Her last thought is a jubilant quote. I have won. End quote.

[Leo]

You know what I think? I think this is the key log. I think this moment is the key log. And she's going. This is the tipping point. And the way that I've set up the pieces, I'm confident.

[Abu]

Yeah. Clearly this has occurred exactly how Taraza had planned. And perhaps she had even in one of her outcomes, in one of her strategies, planned for her own death as well.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And, yeah, tragic moment. She's dying. But you gotta love it when a plan comes together, I guess.

[Leo]

Well, again, it's like the Bene Gesserit. Like, Shuang Yu, in her final moments, sacrificed for the sisterhood and went back to her, abandoned her disagreements with Taraza and did her best to inform the sisterhood so it could protect itself. In this moment, ultimately, she is a Bene Gesserit sisterhood. She is the Reverend Mother Superior. So in this final moment, she's like, sisterhood above all. We're good, right?

[Abu]

We're good. Things are coming together.

[Leo]

I mean, things are coming apart as well.

[Abu]

Like, there are my legs quickly coming.

[Leo]

But right. Figuratively, things are coming together.

[Abu]

Right. My ankle, I think, is over there.

[Leo]

But hey, I mean, figuratively, yeah, things are going great.

[Abu]

Oh, Draid rushes over to the dying Mother Superior here.

[Leo]

Draid's like, you don't have a leg to stand on. Jesus.

[Abu]

She quickly presses her forehead to Taraza's and downloads her memories, much like Jessica did with Reverend Mother Ramallo all the way back in Sietchtabur, all the way back in the first book. Now Odrade, having sort of taken on the mantle of interim Mother Superior as the memories are processing and being downloaded in her mind, rushes into action. She grabs Shiana. She gives Shiana, like, this bundle of Spencer of glow globes. Like, grabs their little threads and hands them to Shiana, opens up an air duct and is like, jump.

[Leo]

Jump down into this air shaft.

[Abu]

Like, use the suspensors to modulate your fall.

[Leo]

So it's very.

[Abu]

It's very like Carl from Up. You know, the Pixar movie Up, and the old man Carl with the balloons just floating away.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

This made me kind of giggle just at the thought of Shiana, like, Mary Poppins ing her way down this air shaft with a bunch of glow globes.

[Leo]

It's so good. And they have toggle toggle cords. I was like, glow globes have toggle cords? That's so cool.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

I don't know. I love these little details. And, yeah, the fucking idea of, like, okay, plan J, let's get into the fucking air shaft. Sh. Like, this seems very MacGyvered. Yeah.

[Abu]

Are you sure you're not making this up along the way?

[Leo]

She's like, who's to say?

[Abu]

And odrah. It's like, I'm the Mother of Superior now. Shush.

[Leo]

Go.

[Abu]

Jump now. And that's where the chapter ends on a very tense moment as Odrade and Shiana make their escape. As they're under attack. Surprise attack by the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Now I'm just imagining Doug from Up as a chair dog, where he's like, you just sat in me and I love you anyway. Jesus. Let's talk about chapter. Let's talk about Chapter 45. We're back with Teg, and he has flipped the switch. He's gone fully Super Saiyan. This is clearly after the other young Honor Matre was brought in. And he is basically casually murdering almost everyone in this headquarter building. He does note later that he there, he didn't kill absolutely everyone. So the kind of jig is up. Like, people will recognize that he has these abilities based on the slowed down camera footage of this blur, this whirlwind. They'll see that it's tech.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Which man, that's got to. I want to be a fly on the wall when they have that realization.

[Abu]

Where they're like, when they play the.

[Leo]

Tapes, what is that blur? And then they slow it down and they're like, oh, it's a zoom enhanced 6:10.

[Abu]

Oh, my God, look at that beard.

[Leo]

Oh my God, that beard is beautiful. And he looks so hungry. It looks like he wants a chili dog. So as he's casually murdering, snapping necks, karate chopping people, nearly decapitating people with his hands, he is fully lost in his thoughts. He's just kind of like meandering, reflecting on some of the stuff that's happening. And we're going to talk more at length about many of the things that he thinks about in our takeaway, because a lot of these are about, like, Dune is a whole and the mistakes of the Honor Matre, but also Teg's understanding from a Bene Gesserit schooling perspective, which gives us a lot of insight into the Bene Gesserit. So we're going to look at that later. Stay tuned. But after his murder spree, his killing spree, he casually runs a five kilometer in like one second, which is great. Goals, goals. That's where I'm working up to it right now. I can run a mile in 10 minutes. We'll get there. Eventually.

[Abu]

We'll get there.

[Leo]

And his prescience like abilities lead him to just the fucking coolest Williamsburg restaurant.

[Abu]

I was going to make the Williamsburg joke.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Just the most hipster fucking.

[Leo]

It's on Yellow Hole in the Wall. If you know, you know, two reviews, you're like, no one goes here, but it's the best food you've ever had in your life.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

It's sick. So he arrives at the future version of everyone's favorite hipster restaurant. The place you don't want to tell your friends about, but you do. Reluctantly, he's immediately recognized, as is the pattern here, again, guided by his second sight, he has found his people once again. And his waiter, who's like, let me patch up your hand. Your hand's bleeding. Yes, I know you from serving with you, and I served with you. It was at Rentatai or something like that. Like, yeah, we serve together. You know, as we joked about at the beginning of the episode, Tag's like, just bring me a great deal of food. Just keep. Just keep bringing it until you are no longer feeling generous and giving me food for free. But he needs to refuel his Turbo Tag battery just in case he needs to demonstrate that he is the universe's fastest Bashar once again. Now, over dessert, and guided by his second vision, he has this. The most disheveled man I've ever read about in a book ever. Professor Delney brought over to his table. This man's got, like, food stains on his fucking collar. His shirt's half untucked. Every detail that, like, Teg observes about him screams like, bachelor. Kind of like a messy life, not really doing so good. And that's one of his observations. He's like, if this guy's got a gal in his life. No, no, there's not even worth entertaining that possibility because no one would let him leave the house looking the way he looks. This guy can dishevel these. It's awful.

[Abu]

My. My head cannon. I do like to think that's Frank throwing a bit of shade at professor at, like, university professors and academics. Oh, like, y' all are a fucking mess.

[Leo]

Bunch of ladyless nerds. Hey, Bev, come here and point at them and laugh with me, you know? It's like, yeah. Oh, that's fun. I like that idea for sure. So he asks Professor Delaney to join him, and he's like, so I need you to risk my life for me. Delaney is like, you psycho. I don't even know who you are. I'm in game. No, honestly, Delne, I like Delaney a lot.

[Abu]

I loved. I do. Loved. His first words when he walked over was like, that was the most impressive gastronomical feat I've ever witnessed in my life.

[Leo]

Yo, whatever you're about to ask me, I'm in. You ate so many sandwiches, I will do anything you ask me to. Yeah, you watch a guy eat 200 sandwiches, you're like, I mean, ask what you want. I'm in. This is great. We do learn that the only reason he's, like, so game to help is because this is his favorite restaurant in the universe. And if he doesn't help, the proprietor is like, you're not welcome back if you don't help a giant hungry man. It's so good. I love this so much. And so basically, Teg asks Delne. He's like, listen, I know you're the one to ask. There is a, like, basically a pub nearby. Like a. Like, it sounds kind of like a tavern. A pub nearby where a bunch of old soldiers meet. Meet men that I've served with. I need you to help me get there. And I am super fucking obvious to everyone because I'm so big. So I need you to figure out how to help me get there. And Delaney's like, I bet let's cover you in sewage. We'll disguise you as one of those sewer workers who's got no noses and big old arms. And we're going to get you to this, basically, to this pub.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, short walk, we've covered Teg and sewage. Short walk later. Then he gets to take a shower. Gets back in his full, you know, his full Bashar uniform. He is in this pub surrounded by ex military men all basically immediately willing to. They kind of recognize him. They're like, oh, my God, that is Texas. And I will say, while many of the men know Tag, you know, they even know his, like, favorite drink. They bring him this, like, this dark blue liquor that he likes. Some of the men who are willing to put their lives on the line, like Delne, are willing to do so because they want, quote, the honored Matres off our necks, end quote. Which I thought was really interesting because we're going to talk about, like, forces and counter forces in a little bit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But the idea that, like, the Bene Gesserit do what they do because they don't stir up that much counterforce to the Bene Gesserit, like, the Bene Gesserit way of doing things means that they are very seldom the target of any kind of ill will or frustration in among the general populace. Like, they are pretty blameless most of the time.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

The Honored Matre have subjugated this city, clearly. But the common folk who are, like, meeting at the pub, some of these people who have no reason to help Teg are like, no, I'll help you because I fucking hate them. And I would die rather than let them go unchallenged.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And that is something that has arisen because of the way that the under Matre do stuff. So we start to see some actual like, clear examples of what the Bene Gesserit are talking about when they say they do not know what they're doing because what they're doing is shortsighted and ultimately can be self destructive.

[Abu]

Right. Also great call out.

[Leo]

Also, as a side note, the Honored Matre will never fucking see this coming because they think of everyone outside their doors as muck. They are treating people as this like inhuman slime. Not cognizant of the fact that, no, there are people with connections out there who will organize against you and will be a part of your downfall. And if you don't recognize that you are never going to have sustained power. Basically, yeah.

[Abu]

It also kind of pokes a hole in the. What's interesting is we've spent most of the book propping up the Honored Madre as this almost undefeatable existential threat. Right?

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

And now near the end of the book, as we are continuing to learn more about them and meeting more people from the scattering, we're starting to realize the reality that, that their power is much less stable than it appears. And you know, Frank is often never too preoccupied with the logistics and the hows and whys and the hard sci fi of it all. But this moment for me also raised the question of how does sex, mind control, power work on an entire population? Do you have to open brothels everywhere when you take over a planet? Logistically speaking, how many of the men on a planet can you actually have sex with to turn them into thralls? Clearly, many of these men in this like veterans bar are not Muzaffar, have not had sex and are not addicted to the Honored Matre sex and are willing to try to throw off their oppressors. So it does make me wonder, like, how deep does their control actually go? Like, is it only key players? And then they just allow people like Muzaffar, who are in charge of other people to.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Pressure, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But like, obviously the deeper down that rabbit hole you go, the deeper you go into the muck.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The less control you have, technically, I.

[Leo]

Was going to say. And the more likely people are to harbor those kind of quiet.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

You know, like Muzaffar is ultimate. He's trembling when she goes, would you want us to leave you alone? And he's like, yeah, right.

[Abu]

That's a direct control.

[Leo]

But you know, you go down two lines of order and the person might be like, I don't know, man. I had career aspirations before These ladies rolled in, like, I was going to be a great graphic designer. And now I'm, like, bullying people. I don't love this. And that's the breaking point of that chain of command.

[Abu]

We're starting to see holes in the cheese. I don't know.

[Leo]

The otter. Macho trees. They are famous for their. Their cheesery. Yeah. Well, at long last, the chapter ends. The drinks are flowing. People are having a good time, chatting among themselves. They know the Bashar will talk when he's ready. So they're just, like, having a good night. And sure enough, he's like, okay, I've got something to say. Silence. Everything stops. The servers are, like, carrying beers around. They stop. They're like, what is it? Bashar, we'll do anything. You want us to kill this guy? Oh, no, Sorry. That was my. I don't like him.

[Abu]

I should. I should let you speak. I don't know why I'm still talking.

[Leo]

Why am I still. Yeah. This is really. Suddenly, it's just my voice echoing in the room. That's great. Everyone's looking at me. This is not what I wanted.

[Abu]

Maybe I will just kill this guy.

[Leo]

Okay. Maybe just to. I mean, I 1.

[Abu]

Just clear the air. Like, it's getting awkward now.

[Leo]

Guys, like, I mean, honestly, do it. Secondhand embarrassment.

[Abu]

Guys, like, honestly, I'm. I'm dying of awkwardness because of what you're doing.

[Leo]

Would rather.

[Abu]

So just kill me on that.

[Leo]

Yeah. But now you're asking for it, and that feels like it kind of goes against my mission. Tag's just watching silently, so Tank's like, all right, guys, quiet down. Two people watch the front door. Two people watch the back door. Make sure no one comes or goes. We are going to steal a no ship.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

One of the treasured objects in the universe, heavily guarded at all times. We're actually going to take one of the ones from the scattering because they're even better. And we discover Teg can fucking see them in his vision.

[Abu]

Oh, God. Like bombshell.

[Leo]

Actually, one of the most incredible things we've seen in the book so far. No ships are undetectable. Teg can see them.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And he's like, in fact, I'm looking at that pretty number over there. It's got its keys in the ignition. I'm just.

[Abu]

With the red racing stripes. That one's mine, baby.

[Leo]

That's the one I want. It's got fire on the side. It's so, so sick.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Just because people see.

[Abu]

It's huge.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's huge.

[Abu]

I mean, if you'll recall very early on in this book club, obviously, like, we knew this was a thing that was going to happen in the book, but we. I remember maybe in, like, episode 1 2, very early on, you and I had a takeaway about the implications of no ships and what it would mean if someone were able to spot them. And, yeah, here we are.

[Leo]

It's the ultimate. Like, this is the. The arms race, basically, is to, like, nullify no ship shields. It's the thing that everybody would want to be able to do, but no one can figure out how to do it. And Teg's like, I mean, you popped me in a T probe for, like, three heartbeats, and here we are.

[Abu]

Here we are.

[Leo]

Ain't life strange?

[Abu]

Crazy stuff. That's definitely a bombshell reveal here, which is huge.

[Leo]

And he's just suggested the craziest crime anyone in this room's ever heard of.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

He knows many of the people who help him will likely die, and everyone in the room is like, let's fucking go, dog.

[Abu]

Let's do it. I'm in.

[Leo]

Sounds good right now. I'm gonna go right now. Yeah. All right.

[Abu]

I'll kill this guy first. Or we're stealing the thing first.

[Leo]

Am I still gonna kill this guy? Yeah. Please, guys, seriously, just do it. It's weird. Now that you want me to Tag's like, not you.

[Abu]

You talk too much. You just stay.

[Leo]

Talk a lot. You're gonna watch the front door. You talk way too much. So an absolutely bombshell reveal at the end of this chapter, and clearly we've got a lot coming up in the final episode. Super exciting. A lot of stuff. A lot of stuff in these chapters. As always, great chapters, but I think these in particular really dig into the Dune lore in a way that is not always the case. I mean, even the chapters that I loved in the. The past few episodes, many of them I loved for just kind of surface level reasons. These really feel like the heart and soul of what makes Dune Dune.

[Abu]

Oh.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah. In a great way.

[Abu]

Right? We're biting into the cake now.

[Leo]

The cheese.

[Abu]

I don't know why the cheese. Right? A lot of food metaphors here for today.

[Leo]

Sounds like you're hungry, buddy.

[Abu]

I know. It's so early. I'm so hungry already.

[Leo]

So early to be hungry. Well, we are going to get into our takeaways right after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. We are going to be talking about sexual energies right after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, we'll be Right back right after this.

[Abu]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Leo]

Your burger is served. And this is our finest Pepsi Zero Sugar. Its sweet profile perfectly balances the savory notes of your burger.

[Abu]

That is one perfect combination.

[Leo]

Burgers deserve Pepsi.

[Abu]

All right, folks, welcome back. Let's now dive into our takeaway for today, talking about sexual energies. A big theme in this book in particular, but in all of the Dune books.

[Leo]

Yeah, sure.

[Abu]

So Aztec is casually killing an entire building full of deadly honored matres and their workers. He is reflecting wool gathering, some might say, on the nature of the honored matre conquest. What he has learned so far, the intel he's gathered in his interactions with them. And he's thinking back on some of his lessons from the Bene Gesserit, particularly about sex and procreation and religion and how that sort of intertwines with what he's learned about the honored mantres. And all of that is really interesting stuff and we wanted to take our time here in the takeaway to expand on it further. Yeah, I think for what it's worth, the flow, the concentration, the release, the pent up sexual energies, this is an idea that is not new to the Dune universe. It might feel new here in Heretics because it is so center stage now.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

But this is a theme that Frank has been interested in since the first book, you know, and in particular he's interested in exploring this idea of energies, sexual energies in particular, through a religious lens, a political lens, a historical lens. You know, he's examining these things through the long tale of human history, or.

[Leo]

Another way to think about it is like the core base human experience through the lens of society and through the lens of these kind of more late stage human society elements. Like we've had sexual urges and we've had amtal and we've had desires to murder and we've had all these things since the earliest stages of human evolution. But only in the last 15,000 years have we had temples and have we had power structures and have we had, you know, people attempting to control one another using these kind of higher intellectual ideas. So for sure, yeah, sexuality is front and center in this book, but this is a theme Religion, the legends that we tell each other under the night sky next to the fire pit. You know, like, that is. How do you manipulate that energy? And what is that used for?

[Abu]

Yeah, right. And again, those ideas have been present since literally the very first Dune book, you know, and if you think like, oh, my gosh, why is sex suddenly appearing in my Dune stories? Then, dear listener, you might have forgotten the literal sietch orgy that takes place in the first book, real orgy that Paul and Jessica participate in. You know, so this has been present in the stories. It just hasn't been so front and center until now here in Heretics and also in Chapter House. And it's here and now that Frank kind of explores the topic more fully and perhaps has more things to say on it, which we'll talk about over the course of this takeaway.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, I can't help but think, like so much of our internal dialogue from Lucilla, just thinking about, when am I going to fucking bed this person and get my mission started. You could very easily copy paste a lot of her thoughts about sex and seduction to Margot Fenring, whose job in the first Dune book is to bed and preserve the genetic essence of a young. And ultimately, like, all of that shit's there. It just. We weren't seeing it from the internal perspective. And now we're now clearly. Yeah, Frank is taking a step back and going, let's talk about the Bene Gesserit, really, and how they handle procreation, love, sexuality, all of it.

[Abu]

Yeah. So let's get into some of the specifics here. There's a couple of quotes that are really worth calling out from Teg's thoughts as he's going on a Halo 3 killtacular murder spree.

[Leo]

Murder spree.

[Abu]

One of the first thoughts he has, I think, actually quite nicely sums up the gist of this topic and this takeaway quote. As he had learned from his Bene Gesserit teachers, the great problem of the human universe lay in how you managed procreation. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, bold statement.

[Abu]

Bold statement, but also a very Bene Gesserit statement when you think about what they've been up to for 10,000, 20,000 years now. The Bene Gesserit understands the infinite power of this human drive to procreate, to continue. The species, this innate. It's in our biology, right?

[Leo]

That's how species continue.

[Abu]

It's because species continue.

[Leo]

They're like, I don't know why I'm building a nest, but I'm building. And now I don't know why I've got eggs, but I've got eggs. And now I'm, you know, it's like, it's just. It's instinct, right?

[Abu]

Yes. And this is a deep wellspring of energy that the Bene Gesserit both recognize and respect and fear. You know, it's something they're not tampering with, especially not in the way that the Honored Matre are. One of Tague's teachers explained this to him as well. You may think of this only as sexuality, but we prefer the more basic term procreation. It has many facets and offshoots and it has apparently unlimited energy. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So you might just be like, yeah, it's sex. But we, the Bene Gesserit, view this as like the unlimited potential of this drive to procreate, to create more.

[Leo]

Yeah. And even where the quote continues to say one of those aspects is love is so fascinating because it puts into context all of the quotes we've heard throughout this book about love. People talking about the dangers of love, the use of love. It's a utility, it's a tool. You're never supposed to really like, get into it, but it's a piece of the process for imprinters as they're being taught. Like, yeah, you are going to remember the first person you sleep with. But like, distancing yourself from, that's necessary. That is what we're talking about. And it's interesting to kind of contextualize it within this broader point.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now looking at the Andermatre and how they might look at something like sex, sexuality, procreation. Clearly, as we've learned from Tag's observations today and from the declarations of the ancient Honored Matre herself, sharing their viewpoint on the world and what they do to Muzaffar, the Honored Mache ignore, seemingly ignore this desire for procreation. It's not a factor for them. For them, sex is merely a tool for pleasure, for extreme pleasure, you know, unlimited ecstasy or whatever.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And thus a tool for control. And that's how they use it. It is a blunt weapon for one purpose. And they are seemingly ignoring the very human drive of sex as also a way to procreate, to create more of us, to create more humanity. They're kind of closing that tap and only and kind of overflowing the bath with just one tap. You know, it's only ice cold fucking water. And they're not mixing it in and making it a cozy bath or whatever. I don't know. That's A weird analogy, but you get it.

[Leo]

Imagine some cheese, right?

[Abu]

Something about cheese.

[Leo]

Something cheese.

[Abu]

Yeah, a cheese plate while you take a bath. You get where I'm going.

[Leo]

Charcuterie in the bath. The cheese is wet, starts to melt, you know, sex.

[Abu]

Actually, Odrade explained this to Shiana in her lessons as well. In the earlier chapter today Odrade says, quote, great deeds and foul ones have been done at the goading of sexual forces. We speak of sexual strength and sexual energies and such things as the overmounting urge of desire. I don't deny that such things are observable, but what we are looking at here is a force so powerful that it can destroy you and everything you hold worthwhile. End quote. So that is the Bene Gesserit nuance that the honored matre are either overlooking or have forgotten or don't know about. Yeah, that, yes, sexual desire, urges, all of those things are normal. And a lot of good and bad has been done in the push and pull of sexual energies and desires and manipulations. But you can only push and pull so far because there is an infinite power here. And through the Bene Gesserit view, the power of procreation here, that is dangerous if pushed too far or forgotten for too long. And that could destroy everything.

[Leo]

I do think it's worth noting that if you look at that quote and you replace sexual forces with religious motivations or earlier in the book we were talking about how the Bene Gesserit, one of the things they do to inspire ultimate loyalty is they understand what you want, what you think you want. And then they create a greater need that goes beyond your mortal life. And with that greater need in mind, you will do anything they need you to. And that is the ultimate way to leverage someone. Great deeds and foul ones have been done in the name of religions as long back as humanity has had culture. And similarly, like, it's like, it seems like they're kind of talking about all multi sides of these multifaceted coins or this multi sided cheese block. You know, it's like every side of the cheese block is a different piece of these primary energies, but they're recognizing this is at the heart of what it means to be human. And that's why it's so powerful. But that's also why it's so dangerous and why you need to handle it with care.

[Abu]

And for what it's worth, the under matre, they're not handling it, they're spinning all the dishes on wobbly ass sticks.

[Leo]

Woo hoo.

[Abu]

And it's fun it's thrilling. It's an adrenaline rush. It's a high.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

But those dishes are gonna come crashing down at some point, and it's gonna be a mess, and you're gonna have to clean it up. It's gonna be awful.

[Leo]

Cheese everywhere. It's terrible.

[Abu]

Cheese everywhere. They're tampering and toying with powers and abilities and forces that they don't truly understand and certainly don't respect in the same way that the Bene Gesserit do. And of course, the Bene Gesserit have been doing this for what, like 20,000 years now or something? They know the drill. They've made the mistakes and learned from them. They've caught their hand in the fire and decided that's not ideal because you get burned again. One of TAG's Bene Gesserit teachers reiterates that point. We have put flame to that fuse more than once with our Missionaria Protectiva. End quote. I love that we too have goaded and pushed and pulled sexual energies to manipulate, and we've made our mistakes. We've been burned by the fire. We know how far is too far and how much you can actually push before things backfire on you. The Bene Gesserit are certainly in a more mature position than the Andermatre here especially.

[Leo]

I love that idea of a fuse. That's just such an evocative sentence. We've put fire to that fuse before. It's like, oh, fuse to what? Right? It always blows up if you push it too far. It's great.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, turning our focus more fully toward the Bene Gesserit in this book called Heretics. In some ways, they are for sure ahead of the honored madre, as you're saying. Right. They have learned these lessons. And this is the benefit, of course, of other memory. They have the 20,000 years accessible to them to look at these lessons difficultly learned over the years. And in fact, we see the honored Maitre in her lecture to teg, in her conversation with teg, we see she's saying, the way we do shit, so much better. We're so good at what we do. We're superior. There's muck out there, insight here. We're the leaders and the commanders. But, you know, we're seeing this. This flashback of Odre teaching Shiana exactly why the Honored Matres is a dead end strategy, why it is shortsighted, and why it can't work. Like Shiana asks Odrade, why? I mean, it seems like they are conquering planets Like, I mean, aren't we losing? Are we losing? I feel like you keep saying they're idiots and they're bad at this, but, like, I kind of feel like they've got quite a few planets, and it feels like they're baby capable of cutting off someone's legs with a lase gun. Like, I don't know, they seem pretty good. Odrade's like, weird example, but, yeah, we'll roll with it. Not that you can roll with it after you don't have legs, but, like, you can roll laterally, but. O' Draid counters Shiana's question. Yeah, it looks like they're conquering worlds, quote. Ah, but what counter forces do they call forth? End quote. And that idea of push and pull counter forces is huge and is primary to why the Bene Gesserit do what they do, how they do it. And in this book alone, we have now seen three examples of counter forces called forth, setting up different ways for the Honored Matre to begin to topple, for their house of cards to begin to sway in the gentle breeze of the winds that they've stirred up, all of which they are not prepared for and they are clearly blind to. And the three examples that kind of came to mind. One, the Tleilaxu seemingly allies right Face dancers from the scattering waff. Working with an Honored Matre early in the book or meeting with them at least. The Tleilaxu have replicated the Honored Matres sexual abilities and then have programmed Duncan with them, have given Duncan this ultimate tool. So much so that Mirbella, the Honored Matre, is like, holy shit. We heard that this might be possible, and we've been given orders to definitely kill this thing if we encounter it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Not only is it possible it happened, and it happened potentially a couple of Golas ago, but it just didn't fully come to fruition. This is Duncan, and Duncan's this kind of key failure for the Honor Matre that they did not anticipate. Yeah, another point of failure. Tag. You have put this wild gene, this Atreides gene, in a point of crisis, and he has become a fucking God. He's become a speedster, MCU style, and now effectively seems untouchable.

[Abu]

I imagine him in that. Have you seen Batman and Superman? Do you know that iconic scene where Henry Cavill's Superman just turns and watches? Yeah, we go to slow mo. We go to the Flash running super fast at Superman, and then you just see him slowly turn his head watching the Flash moving, and you're like, oh, shit. It's a terrible movie. But that scene is iconic.

[Leo]

That scene slaps for sure.

[Abu]

And I imagine Ted can do that shit now, you know? Yeah, he's incredible.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's like, however fast the Honored Matre are, however fast their kicks are and everything, right? Tag is so much faster. Tag's like she began kicking. I had three cups of coffee, like, read a couple of books, relaxed. Her kick was halfway there.

[Abu]

You know, Tag can achieve the whole Huberman method. The more like the Joe Rogan morning before having to respond to an honored mantra.

[Leo]

He wakes up at 4 in the morning, begins with a six hour hike, and then it's 4:30am it's like, what?

[Abu]

Wow. Get me on that Miles Tag morning grind. You know, hashtag productivity.

[Leo]

You know, it's. It's the tradies. Jeans and a T probe, that's all you need. The third failure point is that Tag, when he's in this pub, has like, old allies for sure. Ones that he has won. The good old fashioned Atreides way, where you are good to people. Loyalty goes both upwards and downwards. You win people's loyalty by being loyal to them. This is not the way the Honor Matre work. And yet these people who have worked with Teg before are so willing to give their lives now because they. Because that way of doing things has more of that, like, core resonance to how people operate. But then also these fucking strangers in the room are like, yeah, fuck the Honor Matre. We're on board, dog. Like, we're, let's go. Let's. Let's give our lives for you, Bashar. Because we don't like the Honored Matre. So these three things, right, the Tleilaxu, Teg himself and the allies he summons are all different counter forces that are a direct result of the way that the Honored Matre do things.

[Abu]

Yeah, holes in the cheese.

[Leo]

Holes in the cheese. The cheese is melting in the bath. It's crazy. The holy cheese is melting in the bath. And ultimately, like, why is Odrade bringing this up to Shiana? Like, what is the lesson here? And kind of, what is the point? We don't see where that conversation goes, but the resistance to the Honored Matre sexual powers starts to point out exactly where that long game plan fails. And we can see this sort of sequence, right? The honored Matre enslave men through sex. The men that they're enslaving. And again, maybe this is the exact man. This is the Muzaffar. Maybe this is the men that Muzaffar controls. They become resistant to sexual manipulation. They develop, they adapt. They become, as she says about the Voice, you know, this is why we don't use the Voice all the time, because people will develop ways of counteracting it.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

The men being subjugated will rise up, destroy their oppressors, their honored material oppressors.

[Abu]

Right. We're seeing that happen.

[Leo]

And then men are free from their oppressors.

[Abu]

Cool.

[Leo]

But are now no longer connected to their sexual desires. Oh. Which is then the end of humanity. Because you need to have a connection to that to drive the species forward.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

You don't have to, like, you know, again, it's all in moderation. But, like, if you're like, oh, yeah, no, I've freed myself of any sexual desire altogether. Everyone's just then esthetics, living out in the mountains, having really great thoughts for one more generation. And then that's the end of humanity.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And that's one of the ways that the Golden Path could fade out. Right. Like, that is one of the ways where if these forces were unleashed upon our universe, we could see the humanity's endless procreation come to an end. And that's where the honored materi are, this existential threat, not only to the characters that we've come to love and know, but also to humanity as a whole. They are setting up this dam, this blockage in the river that could lead to the river drying up and fading forever. And the Bene Gesserit understand this. And this is also why Taraz is like, this is why they are so dangerous. And this is the lesson for Shiana. It may look like right now they're conquering planets, and that's a good thing for them, but they are actively jeopardizing the survival of humanity by overutilizing these primal forces. Right?

[Abu]

Yeah. And those countermeasures will actually backfire in a way that they simply don't expect. So I wanted to take a moment here, as we're closing out our thoughts here, nearing the end of our takeaway, to kind of step out of the story and ask ourselves sort of the meta question, Right. Why did Frank write about this? What is the message or idea that he's trying to convey or explore by putting these elements front and center in this story? Sexual energies, procreation, the Bene Gesserit view, the honored matre view, all of those things. As we discussed in the last episode, Frank has put sex front and center here as a major theme in this book in particular. More. So it's been present but certainly not as much in previous books, more so than previous books, in order to explore it as a means of control and manipulation. You know, for Frank, a lot of this is always about religion, politics, manipulation, control. And in last week's chapters, we saw the Honored Matres very direct and violent way of using sex as a tool. Right. Rubella tried to subdue Duncan. Obviously that backfired. In today's chapters, we are now presented with the Bene Gesserit way of doing things, controlling procreation, which of course we know they've been doing for millennia. The breeding program was a thing that directly affected Paul Atreides life and everyone's life in the Imperium for 10,000 plus years. That is how they like to control and manipulate.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

What's interesting, though, is we do see cracks in both of these methods.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

The Honored Matre are succumbing to their own addiction. They're getting high on their own drug, and it's leading them down a destructive path and also dragging humanity down with it.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

The Bene Gesserit have lost touch with their humanity, as we've explored many times through Odrade's thoughts in this book. They've lost touch with love, the very things that make us human. They've sunk too deep into their dogma. They have also had plans backfire in spectacular ways. Paul Atreides. Ever heard of him?

[Leo]

Yeah. And also apparently saw the need of the Golden Path, but didn't take the steps to do it.

[Abu]

Didn't. Exactly.

[Leo]

And it's like the only reason they're not doing it is probably adherence to dogma. And that's the ultimate failing of the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Right. So we're seeing cracks in both of these viewpoints, actually. You know, Frank isn't out here putting the Bene Gesserit on a pedestal in this book and saying, look how right they are. Look how wrong the Honored Matre are. It's not as simple as that. It's not as black and white as that. Both of these groups, while similar, are also making mistakes in their own ways that they are blind to.

[Leo]

It's like a pendulum.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. And so my thought on this, at least, is that it seems pretty clear to me that Frank is perhaps warning us to be wary of extreme dogma and ideology, in particular in this book, when it comes to leaders and institutions and religions and how they present sex or how they attempt to change our innate sexual energies as humans. Our desires to procreate, our desires for pleasure. Yeah. And, you know, perhaps Here's a radical idea, folks. Sex can be both for pleasure and procreation. And in fact, that's a deeply personal choice between consenting adults who are participating in said act and maybe should have nothing to do with any institution that tries to interfere.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And I do think that is the idea that the sort of main thrust of Frank's idea in this book. And it really tracks, given what we know about Frank's like anti big government thoughts and his general distrust of people in power. I think it absolutely tracks with many of the other themes in all of the Dune books and many of the other warnings that Frank has always presented and the ideas he's always explored. In this one, he's just kind of honing in on. Sex is just another warning and another way in which you, the little guy, can be manipulated by the wrong person or institution. So watch out for it. Extreme ideology, extreme dogma. Telling you how you should have sex should throw up a warning flag. That's a red flag. And you should watch out for that because you're likely being manipulated in the same way.

[Leo]

I mean, again, it's like what he always does with these things, right? Like he explores the primal forces explored to their nth. And you say, what does it mean for religion to be this like hyper calculated tool that you use to manipulate people on a galactic scale. Let's also look at sex and how that plays a part in all of this and procreation and the continuity of the species, et cetera, et cetera. It's very in line with a lot of Frank's warnings. And again, I love that he is writing these books from a place of like. This is the lesson you can take away from this. Whether or not you agree with him and whether or not you have your own personal how you're raised or how you believe in these things, whether you've decided not to have kids, whether you want kids, whether you have sex for pleasure or whether you're asexual. There are so many. The tapestry of humanity is so vast. And at the end of the day, I think what Frank is suggesting is that, yeah, an institution like the Bene Gesserit shouldn't be in charge of trying to control every aspect of it or trying to get too particular about these levers that you're pulling as you control the guidance of humanity or whatever.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Anyway, we're going to wrap up now, but I do want to say, to kind of encapsulate a bit of what you were just saying, the idea that the Bene Gesserit they are front and center in this book, and they are not on a pedestal. They are not being celebrated for being ultimately blameless. And the otter and Matre are for sure shortsighted, and they are for sure the existential threat to the galaxy. But similar to what Odrade's saying, she's going, yeah, we're stagnant, and we've been stagnant for thousands of years. And we know stagnation is another existential threat. So although the Honored Matre and the Bene Gesserit are clearly different, they do have a lot of similarities. And we'll wrap up on this point. Both groups appear to be blind to their own weaknesses, right? Despite knowing the Honor Matre playbook, the Bene Gesserit are still falling into traps set by their own adherence to dogma, their own stagnation only. Taraz's policy of encouraging heretical thinking among her order is like seeding the possibility of the Order, the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, surviving the threat of stagnation. As you have these new ideas bubbling up from among your ranks, that's the culture that she's kind of cultivated. And thus we have Odrade. We have Odrade downloading all her memories and her final moments. One of the heretics is downloading all of her thoughts and memories. We'll have to see where that ends up. Now, additionally, procreation, we see two perspectives, right? We see from Teg's teacher, love is an aspect of procreation, but also love is an aspect of procreation. And we see from the Honored Matre that sex is an element within procreation. And the Bene Gesserit have abandoned love as a source of human joy. Like we've seen and like we've talked about, they've lost touch with their humanity. In that way. The Honored Matre have clearly abandoned sex as anything other than a means of control. And that's where Teg is realizing they don't live a full life. They are now doomed to be ever voyeurs, sampling their own drugs, trying to chase that higher high, never understanding the, like, joy of intimacy and the fulfillment of, like, having kids or whatever it is, right? And at the end of the day, it is clear that the Honored Matri are just barely maintaining control. Their house of cards is starting to wobble. Their house of cheese is beginning to melt as it's been submerged in the hot bathtub or whatever. And in case you didn't remember from today's reading, the Reverend Mother Superior, head of the Bene Gesserit just fucking died. So we have. Right now, as we head into this final episode, we have so much ambiguity for both forces. We don't know where the Bene Gesserit are going to end up. We don't know what's going to happen with the honored matre. And in some ways, both of them pose an existential threat for humanity as a whole. And we'll have to see kind of how it all shapes up in the final chapters of this book.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. And, boy, are they final chapters. I'm gonna admit. I read ahead a little bit, and holy shit.

[Leo]

Uh. Oh, no spoilers.

[Abu]

What's coming up? No spoilies. No spoilies. But I'm just saying you're gonna want to read. Don't drop. Don't stop reading the book here.

[Leo]

That would be sociopathic. You're like, I read all but the last three chapters. Whatever.

[Abu]

All right, well, that's our takeaway for today. Let's take another breather and, you know, let's prep ourselves. Let's wash our hands, let's get some napkins and some silverware because. Freshen up some yummy spice morsels.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That we got to eat, chomp down on.

[Leo]

We're going to bring them out until our generosity is overstepped. Just kidding. It's only two.

[Abu]

We'll be back in just a minute, folks, with some spice morsels. Yeah. What is daddication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing, that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job. That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready for some spicy morsels. And our first spice morsel today is Danny and Jacaranda. And this basically is from today's reading. While waiting for the honored matre, Teg examines a table. He's just looking around. He's taking in details. And at this bank, he gives us this observation quote. The top was at least 20 millimeters thick. Teg guessed it was Danny and Jacaranda. The deep brown surface had been polished to a sheen that drank the vision and revealed, far underneath, veins like river currents. End quote. Damn, that is an expensive table. I can tell just from that paragraph, that description, right? That is a West Elm sounding desk that I cannot afford. I am not in that tax bracket. But tell your friends to join our patreon and maybe one day I'll have a West.

[Abu]

Maybe one day I'll be allowed to walk into a West Elm. They won't let gets big enough right now.

[Leo]

They ask me how many patrons I have, I show them and they go, no, come back later.

[Abu]

They're like, ugh, midsize podcaster. Get the out of this West Elm.

[Leo]

Yeah. Are you with. You're with Crooked Media. You're not with. No. God, get out of here. Yeah. And so we looking into it. And as some people in the audience probably already know and may be screaming at us as we're talking about this jacarena plants or hakaranda plants are a real thing. So we're gonna bring you your daily plant facts because love some good plant facts.

[Abu]

Surprise. You've subscribed to Plant Facts by Kanjabar.

[Leo]

Yeah, Buy us. We did that for you. You're welcome. Thank you. So jacaranda is a genus of plants. Technically, it's got 49 flowering species of both shrubs and trees. So it's got a big range of sizes of chakranda plants. And the word comes from one of the South American languages in the Tupi Guarani subfamily, which is kind of neat. Now, the flowers are super beautiful. If you look up jacaranda flowers, J A C A R A N D A. They are gorgeous. They are shades of purple and violet. They're really, really, really beautiful. And they are used in encanto. So if you've seen the Pixar Disney animated movie, Encanto, the song, what Else Can I Do? Which I think I can't remember character names, but it's like the older beautiful sister, she's like in her flower palace and she's swinging around. She creates a hurricane of Hakaran. And it's just a really beautiful scene. And it's like, whoa, those are flowers from the plant of the table in Heretics of Dune. Sweet, right?

[Abu]

A reference. Who knew a Dune reference. And then Kanto crazy.

[Leo]

Yeah, go Pixar. Every child watching Encanto was like, oh, from Heretics of Dune.

[Abu]

I remember deep cut to Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

Impressive.

[Abu]

Pixar well done.

[Leo]

Tags in the background if you look carefully. But it is worth noting that the larger jacaranda trees can be used in furniture. And sure enough, you can find if you look up jacaranda Wood tables, some gorgeous examples that honestly look kind of like what you might expect Tag to be looking at in this scene. And sure enough, as Teg notices, they can be pretty pricey. I found some from a couple thousand dollars, like, a thousand bucks to a desk. Like, just an office desk for $17,000. So, again, not where we're at right now, but maybe we get a couple more Kwisatz how to write level patrons, and we'll talk about. We'll finance. We'll take out a loan to buy that desk. Now, jacaranda plants, like blue jacaranda, are cultivated pretty much in every climate in the world that doesn't get frost. They don't tend to do very well with frost. They can survive, but it, like, stunts their growth. But from what we can tell, jacaranda trees do best in subtropical warm environments generally.

[Abu]

And that makes a lot of sense because there are, like, a thousand photos of me from a Mexico City trip a few years ago just standing in front of the most beautiful purple flowered hakaran trees.

[Leo]

Oh.

[Abu]

And going, wow, that's a pretty tree. Take a photo of me quick.

[Leo]

Oh, that's so cool. Okay, so you've seen the trees, in fact?

[Abu]

Yes, they're gorgeous.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah, Nice. Move over. Sakura blossoms in Japan. We got hakaranda trees in Mexico City. Hell, yeah. Also hearing you say hakaranda, that's how I'm gonna say it now. Sorry for the switch up in pronunciation. It sounds better. Jacaranda just sounds so. I want tortillas on my quesadilla, you know, so bringing our focus back to dune. It makes sense that this beautiful wood that you can see in, like, a Google image search would be used in this lavish bank setting. But I also would like to point out that because we know the trees do best in kind of subtropical warm climates, this means in prime canon, Danny and jacaranda. Jesus, I said it again. Danny and Hakaranda. That means that on Caladan, there are subtropical warm regions, which is kind of fun. I always think of the planet as very cold and wet, but it seems as though if they have Dhanian hakaranda trees. Wow, that was weird. Dhanian hakaranda trees. It means they've got a warm summery climate as well, which is very nice.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So just for fun, if you were reading this chapter with tag in the bank and you want a really, really clear mental image of what that desk looks like, treat yourself to a little Google image search. They are beautiful.

[Abu]

Yeah. Kaladin. Just every time we hear about it, I'm like, Take me to Kaladin.

[Leo]

Yeah, I want to go.

[Abu]

I want to get a tortilla and a quesadilla and sit under a jacaranda tree and eat this scrumptious food on Kaladin.

[Leo]

I feel personally attacked. Is this appropriation? Have you taken my culture?

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about our second morsel. Darning.

[Leo]

Darning.

[Abu]

Darning lessons with our boy Tag. My gosh, the talents that Miles Tag has. Truly endless. In today's reading, Tag is again sitting at the coolest, most hipster restaurant you've never heard of and observes the waiter's drip, noting, quote, the hem of his black jacket had been darned. End quote. I, for one, had no idea what that meant. I don't know anything about clothing. Anyone who ever looks at the video clips from this podcast knows I wear like the same four sweaters on every fucking recording.

[Leo]

Same.

[Abu]

And now that I've pointed that out, you're gonna not be able to not see it. So we dug into it. You did some excellent research on what darning is and what teg means by this. What's going on with this black jacket that this hot, well dressed waiter is wearing?

[Leo]

He's got tufts of blonde hair.

[Abu]

So to begin to darn fabric according to the Webster definition is quote, to mend with interlacing stitches. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, so it's a type of stitching, and it turns out that it's like a whole art form. You know, it's not just like one tiny thing. You should know about stitching. Darning is like a whole thing. There are multiple methods of darning. There's more than one way to just do ranges from simply patching up a hole with thread to full on designing, like intricate patterns through darning techniques. Or for example, there's even this thing called Belgian darning, which aims to basically make repairs to the piece of clothing as invisible as possible by trying to darn, by trying to weave the stitching in a way and with such thread that it matches perfectly with the original fabric and you never realize that it was there in the first place.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now continuing to dig a little bit deeper into the word darn. It is potentially derived from the French verb darner, which means to mend. And the practice goes back to ancient times, folks have been darning since the good old days. All right, there's examples out there that date as far back as Egypt in the 7th and 8th century, folks. Examples of darning and this type of stitching.

[Leo]

Yeah, we found a tunic, like a child's tunic that was darned back in like the 7th or 8th century. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I'll also throw in here a mini morsel. So there are tools used in darning, and one of them I had heard about like a month or two ago and didn't even know it. My fiance was telling me about how her mother would mend socks with an egg. Like socks when they get a hole in it or something. She would use an egg to help mend the sock. And I was like, sure, what?

[Abu]

I'm following.

[Leo]

I'm following. He said, not following.

[Abu]

Hard boiled hard.

[Leo]

Do you cook it for? Is it. You crack it open and then you use the egg whites to. I don't understand. So I had no idea. But what it. What it turns out is. And she explained this to me in the moment, but we didn't have the, like, English word for it. What it's called in English, I learned from this episode's research is a darning egg. And so darning eggs are little wooden egg shaped pieces of wood. There are also darning mushrooms, or you can use gourds, and you put them into the sock or into the garment to give it the shape that you want it to have. And then you can darn over the shape. You can kind of weave the threads over the shape and you use it to shape the patch, basically.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I was like, holy shit. So it was kind of fun because as always, Gom Jabbar research bleeds into the rest of my knowledge. And now I just know that darning exists. And they're called darning eggs.

[Abu]

So neat. I feel like we've learned a lot over the course of Heretics of Dune, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah, I agree.

[Abu]

Because we've relied less on the encyclopedia for these morsels and we've done more outside research and, like, extracurricular work. And I feel like we're learning a ton.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Thanks to this book. Okay, let's wrap up this morsel about darning. Let's circle back to Dune. Here's another quote from that same page from that same scene. Quote, the striped red and white cloth on the table had been darned in several places. Care taken to match the original fabric. End quote. Folks, hope you were taking notes. Belgian darning.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Match the original fabric.

[Leo]

Clearly didn't do a good job. Tag noticed.

[Abu]

Teg fucking noticed. I mean, I mean, come on. I feel like you can't hide any darning.

[Leo]

You can't hide darning.

[Abu]

Tag can spot the best darners in the world would crumble in the face of miles.

[Leo]

Tag, how does he see it? He's so tall.

[Abu]

It's crazy. Those eagle eyes of his. So, speaking of the scene and kind of taking into consideration what we know about darning, it's interesting because this is a wealthy establishment, let's not forget. And the darning that's sort of on display that Tag is observing is interesting because it is kind of a front. This place is intentionally meant to look a little more run down and a little more, dare I say, hipstery. You know, it's not polished, it's not minimalist, it's not marble countertops everywhere, clean, wealthy, uppity white tablecloth. None of that, you know, it's kind of like a. They're presenting this darned tablecloth, you know, like, oh, it tore. We didn't have the money to replace it, so we just stitched it back up. But in fact, they're actually quite rich. So it's just another layer of this front that this restaurant is putting on very strategically. And it's a front that Tag is able to kind of see right through.

[Leo]

And it's skillful patching, right? Like, this isn't like a patchwork, like, thrown together. This is a skill and a craft that's done with care. And I thought that was really interesting as well. Like, it is in the way that, you know, a restaurant that takes that sort of care and attention to just the tablecloth is going to bring you some, like, banger food. It's like they. They take care of every little detail and you're like, okay, I'm in good hands.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

It's a good place to refill turbotech, right?

[Abu]

It's that extra bit of detail. You know, I think in Heretics in particular, Frank leans a little heavier on the world building and the details like that than he has in previous books and makes for fun little moments like this where a whole story is told about this restaurant merely through an observation about the stitching.

[Leo]

Indeed, like a hypno bong. Okay, so, folks, we have some homework for you. Those were our morsels, but we have some homework for you. And I love. I love when I get to say this. For the next episode, I want you to read the chapters.

[Abu]

Say it.

[Leo]

The whole rest of the book.

[Abu]

The rest of the book.

[Leo]

We're there.

[Abu]

Finish it.

[Leo]

Finish it. You probably have already. I think at this point, people are just burning for.

[Abu]

They're waiting for us to catch up to them.

[Leo]

I know it's hard. I mean, you get to the third to last chapter, whatever, and you're like, well, okay, I'm just going to finish the book.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So yeah, if you haven't already read the final pages, we are going to talk about the entire the rest of the end of the book next episode and then we'll kind of have a little debrief or we'll talk about the book as a whole. But that is your reading. Oh, so exciting.

[Abu]

So exciting. We're finishing it up in the next episode, folks. Okay, that's our episode today. Before we let you go, as always, a couple of very quick lightning reminders. Two great ways to support this show in case you have forgotten. Number one, become a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar Ad Free episodes, access to exclusive live streams on YouTube. Yeah, and a lot more fun stuff. Go check it out. Support us if you can. That month to month contribution truly keeps the show running. The second best way to support this podcast is to go check out our merch store gomjabarshop.com get yourself something cute to wear on your next outing to your favorite hipster restaurant in Williamsburg.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

[Abu]

All of those links will be in the show notes below, so check them out.

[Leo]

Indeed. And we love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] was I was me saying Jacaranda the whole time annoying to you? Tell me as much. I'm gonna say Hakaranda from now on and you can't stop me, I guess. And do you have a darning egg at home? I want to know about it. Do you have a darning mushroom? They look so fucking cute. Where'd you get your darning mushroom? Tell me. Send us those emails. Gondtrabarpak podcastmail.com love to get them. Whatever you gotta say. Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter at Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We've got select episodes on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening and remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.