Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 16)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast - Episode Summary Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 16) | Released June 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this culminating episode of their Heretics of Dune Book Club, hosts Abu and Leo delve deep into the final chapters of Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune. Released on June 27, 2025, this episode serves as a comprehensive wrap-up, exploring the intricate themes, character arcs, and the overarching philosophies that Herbert weaves throughout the narrative.

Summary of Final Chapters

Chapter 46: The Climactic Battle and Strategic Maneuvering

As the episode commences around the 5:35 mark, Abu and Leo discuss the penultimate chapter of Heretics of Dune, highlighting the depiction of an "incredible battle scene." They emphasize Frank Herbert's focus on character development over purely action-driven sequences.

• Leo reflects on Herbert's storytelling style:
  "[00:35] Leo: It's so funny how Frank does this, but this is also classic Frank, right? On one hand, we have seen a couple of moments where Tag goes Super Saiyan, he wipes out a bunch of people..."
  [06:17]

The discussion centers on Miles Teg's strategic genius, his interaction with Lucilla, and the impending doom facing Arrakis as the Honored Matres execute their sterilization plan. Leo notes the theme of stagnation as an existential threat, a recurring motif in the Dune series.

• Abu adds insight into Teg's tactical prowess:
  "[08:27] Abu: Right?"
  [08:36]

Chapter 47: Odrade's Reflection and Miles Teg's Testament

Transitioning to the final chapter, Abu and Leo explore Odrade's introspection and the revelations of Miles Teg's last will. Around the 15:52 timestamp, they discuss how Taraza's intricate plans come to fruition, leading to the devastating destruction of Arrakis.

• Leo expresses emotional resonance with the loss of Arrakis:
  "[20:04] Leo: Yeah."
  [20:22]

The hosts delve into the ethical implications of Taraza's decisions, the Bene Gesserit's internal struggles, and the profound impact of history's manipulation.

Key Themes and Insights

1. Stagnation vs. Evolution
   The episode underscores Herbert's critique of stagnation, illustrating how even the most fortified positions can falter without continuous evolution.

2. The Fallibility of History
   A significant portion of the discussion (starting around 36:40) revolves around Miles Teg's observations on the biases inherent in historical records. Teg's testament serves as a cautionary tale about the manipulation and selective recording of history, echoing Frank Herbert's real-world insights.

   • Leo draws parallels to contemporary issues:
     "[40:00] Leo: Now, Teg's will continues down exactly that route of kind of questioning the Kool Aid, questioning the historians..."
     [40:21]

3. Consciousness and Prescience
   The hosts explore the concept of prescience as more than a mere superpower, aligning it with the episode's epigraph on the relationship between consciousness and matter. This philosophical angle invites listeners to ponder the limits of human understanding and the unknown forces shaping our universe.

   • Abu reflects on Odrade's approach to prescience:
     "[28:00] Leo: Yeah. I think this is where I'm going to add in here..."
     [30:21]

4. Scapegoating and Power Dynamics
   The discussion highlights how powerful entities manipulate narratives to maintain control, using scapegoats to divert blame and consolidate power.

   • Leo critiques the acceptance of superficial histories:
     "[60:03] Abu: And I think at face value is the thing a scapegoat presented to you..."
     [60:16]

Notable Quotes

• Leo on Stagnation:
  "[09:12] Leo: The defenses of the planet are compromised. Teg explains it's because they have, quote, become static..."

• Miles Teg on History Manipulation:
  "[36:40] Leo: ...the writing of history is largely a process of diversion. Most historical accounts divert attention from the secret influences around the recorded events. End quote."

• Odrade on Prescience:
  "[27:56] Leo: Yeah. Wow."
  [27:57] Abu: Amazing stuff. Something that Taraza clearly recognized as well."

• Teg's Testament on Power Structures:
  "[42:41] Abu: Like, how do you keep a secret with two people? Like, how do you keep a secret from leaking from two people? You shoot one of them. That's how you, that's how you keep them is yeah, for sure."

Conclusion and Takeaways

Abu and Leo conclude the episode by reflecting on the profound lessons gleaned from Heretics of Dune. They emphasize the dangers of complacency, the importance of questioning historical narratives, and the intricate balance between power and ethics.

• Leo encapsulates the essence of the discussion:
  "[56:37] Abu: Yes. And I think this is what makes Frank's book so special and so iconic. I also want to shout out Takako in the chat..."
  [56:38]

The hosts advocate for intellectual humility, urging listeners to remain curious and critical of the information presented to them, both within the Dune universe and in the real world.

Looking Ahead

As the episode wraps up, Abu and Leo tease upcoming content, including a live Q&A session and a dedicated episode dissecting Taraza's elaborate plans. They invite listeners to engage through various platforms, ensuring the conversation around Heretics of Dune continues beyond the podcast.

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“Whatever simulated pleasure for them, they required more of it every time. And they know this, how they must rage inside. Caught in such a trap, they had listened to it all and none of it was enough.”
— Leo at 00:00

Transcript

[Leo]

What pleased them, what gratified? They were like Gom Jabbar addicts. Whatever simulated pleasure for them, they required more of it every time. And they know this, how they must rage inside. Caught in such a trap, they had listened to it all and none of it was enough. Not deep enough or dive enough. They had entirely lost the knack of moderation chat.

[Abu]

If that describes you, then we got a hotline that you need to call for help if you have a gambling addiction or a Gom Jabbar addiction. It's the same hotline, actually. It's very weird, but it's very strange.

[Leo]

We ran out of hotlines. We multitasking.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo, and Leo hop.

[Abu]

On this no ship, buddy, because we're taking it to the end of Heretics of Dooon.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh, what's the old worm gotta say? Nothing at all. That's the end of the book.

[Abu]

Wow, we've done it. This has been a long journey.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're here at the end of Heretics of Dune. How are you feeling?

[Leo]

I mean, I'm feeling good. It's surreal. I feel like we started this book club in the late 80s and it's still going, but today's the. It's emotional. This is such a good book and I think I've enjoyed it on every subsequent read. Just getting more depth out of each chapter and noticing new things. Been very cool.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

What about you?

[Abu]

I agree these Dune books beg for a reread and I truly, every time I pick them up again, I feel like I get something totally new and fresh out of them. Or, I understand, something that went above my head last time. It's been a really great read through, but we have two chapters to cover today. We gotta get through those before we can officially say we're done. Before we dive into those chapters. Yeah, quick bit of housekeeping, of course, and then we'll get into it, folks.

[Leo]

Now, as always, spoiler warning for today. No spoilers beyond the pages in books we've covered thus far. It's a book club episode. That's how it works. You are safe to listen if you are caught up on our book club listening path.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, a huge shout out up top to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchins, and Seth Reddin. Greer, folks, if I was about to go on a suicide mission, yeah, honestly, I'd leave you behind. You're too precious. You get on the ship with Odrade, go to Chapter House, get out of here.

[Leo]

We're leaving the Gom Jabbar steering like mechanism to you. We're leaving. You and me. Abu, I'm going outside. Abu can choose if he wants to come or not, but yeah, you're staying behind. You're like bursmally. You're too precious.

[Abu]

Totally too precious. Yeah. In fact, you're in command now. You run this podcast. We're done. Thank you. That's a very weird way of saying thank you. And I suppose us handing the keys over to all of you for supporting this show. Of course, our thank yous and our gratitude extend to all of our patrons at every level who make this show possible. We get to do this every single week.

[Leo]

It's true.

[Abu]

Because of you.

[Leo]

And hey, if you can't become a monthly subscriber for whatever reason, but you want to support us with a one time little thank you tip, you can we have a link in the show notes for a buy me a coffee. So if you want to buy us a spice coffee or a pint of spice beer, that would be the way to do it. Thank you so much.

[Abu]

All right, housekeeping out of the way. Y' all know the game plan for these book club episodes and today is no different. We're going to begin with the summary of today's reading. That's just the final two chapters today. Then we'll dive deeper into a takeaway, unpack some big themes and ideas, and finally, we will chomp down on some yummy spice morsels to round out the episode. So before we get into all of that and before we finish this book, let's take a quick break. But don't go anywhere, folks. Yeah, we'll be right back.

[Leo]

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's finish. Heretics of Dune by Frank Herbert. Ever heard of them? And our second to last chapter, our penultimate chapter of this book, chapter 46, picks up after what sounds like the most incredible battle you've ever seen. The most incredible battle scene.

[Abu]

Just imagine it.

[Leo]

It's a no ship. Just close your eyes and just fucking picture something you don't get. It's a grand theft no ship heist by Tag. Think about it like bar room buddies.

[Abu]

Miles Tag, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, that other guy, Matt Damon, then that other guy. All of them. They're going to name it again in another rule.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's so funny how Frank does this, but this is also classic Frank, right? On one hand, we have seen a couple of moments where Tag goes Super Saiyan, he wipes out a bunch of people. We don't necessarily need to see the same thing again, but on the other side of it, we are focused on the characters and we're focused on the character elements of each of these beats. And we know that that was a life or death harrowing battle that many people died at, and we know how they came out on the other side. And now we're focusing on the human elements of it. So Frank is always as like laser focused on character and how these characters are moving from beat to beat, even if that means glossing over beats that normally would be like two chapters of thrilling pulse racing excitement. Whatever.

[Abu]

It'll be a great scene in the adaptation someday. But Frank's not concerned with it as a chapter in his book or it won't.

[Leo]

And that episode will get a terrible rating on IMDb because people are going to go, what the fuck? Come on, I want to see the fight. Well, we are on the no ship that was heisted from Gamu. Hanging out in Arrakis. Hanging out in the desert on Arrakis with Tag in the hold in the keep. We have Bursmally, we've got Lucilla, we've got Duncan, we've got fucking Merbella. The honored matre that Duncan, like, had sex with.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And then we have the surviving handful of old soldier friends that Tag pulled from that publisher. Basically and they are waiting at this one point in the desert for the. The arrival of Shiana and Odrade, who have caught, like, a worm Uber. Now, Tag is using his kind of awe, his brand of prescience, in order to understand that this is the place where Shiana's Wyrm is going to end up. And as we'll learn a little bit later, even Shiana and Odrade don't know where the Wyrm is going. They're just on a worm and it's. It's going into the desert and it arrives at the no ship, which is incredible to think about, but this is. This is what Teg's prescience allows him to do.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Everyone else, though, quietly, is going, well, he clearly got a message to her somehow or they know. Like, this is one of Teg's mastermind arrangements, right?

[Abu]

A genius tactician.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

A legendary war general. Bashar.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This is just what he does.

[Leo]

Okay. Lucilla demands to speak with Teg. She's like, let me talk to him. And she barely gets a word in. Their conversation is mostly Tag giving her single sentences, and then her panicking at the ramifications of every sentence and then never really getting an A word in edgewise.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And within their conversation, a few things become clear, right? Arrakis has or will fall quickly to the Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Whoa.

[Leo]

The defenses of the planet are compromised. And Teg explains it's because they have, quote, become static. This is also, by the way, another manifestation of stagnation being this existential threat throughout all of Dune.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Even a well defended fortress becomes vulnerable if left alone too long. We also learn that the plan is to bring Odraid, Shiana and the fucking worm they're riding on to Chapter House. Whoa. Like, get on board, you two. Also the Uber drive and the car. Bring it all. Yeah, Everything. Get on the ship, away from Arrakis. That's the plan. Meanwhile, Tag and his loyal soldiers will stay, create a diversion, luring the Honored Matre into sterilizing Arrakis, into cleansing, destroying Arrakis. Every human on the planet, dead. Every worm on the planet, dead. Yep, the planet's going to be a charred hulk. That's the plan. This is plan A, folks. And finally we see that Lucilla is fully out of her depth. She is floundering. This whole sequence, right? Tag's abilities have made him just leaps and bounds ahead of what she's even capable of understanding. And this quote I thought was very, very funny quote, lucilla was floundering. Tag had seldom seen a Reverend Mother at such a loss. She was trying to assemble the things he had said, end quote. Which is me. Every time I open the Babel app and I learn new things about French grammar, I'm floundering. I'm trying to assemble the things it's teaching me, and I'm failing. But, yeah, sympathy for her because Teg's out here going, oh, by the way, your Reverend Mother Superior is dead. And Lucilla's like, what? Wait, what? And he's like, also. And just continues the whole time.

[Abu]

Right. And he even has an observation at one point where he's like, oh, she'll get this later. I just need to, like, say this now. She'll think about it. It's going to take her, like, a week or two to process this, and she'll catch up eventually. You know, it's almost funny to think that because of his prescience and the leaps and bounds he has made, he's also kind of thinking at super speed now. He's way ahead of Lucilla's understanding. And even though Drade, as we'll see in the final chapter of the book, weeks or X amount of time later, is still kind of processing and learning from Teg, literally running circles around Reverend Mothers at this point, something he's sort of been doing all book. He's kind of been out juking them throughout the book in very impressive Miles Teg ways. But now he's just like, he's lapping them over and over and over.

[Leo]

Yeah. And even Odre, it's a great point because o' Draid is among Reverend Mothers, one of the most observant and sort of Sherlock Holmes of them. She is so smart. And even she, as you're pointing out in the final chapter later, days, weeks later, is going, wait, could he see? No ships. And she's piecing that together, but only after the fact, only way later. So that's a great point.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, speaking of the worm, when the worm appears, Teg issues his commands. It's like, this is when things kick up into hyperspeed. Bring Odrade. Berzmali is going to be ready. Standing by to take over for me. And let's get the worm on board now. Teg's meeting with a. Drade is full of kind of shielded, careful speech. He trusts these people to give their lives for him, but we don't know if one of them is captured and they're subjected to the T probe or whatever, it's like, we need to make sure information is still tight and we're still secure. So he tells her, rather than say, hey, take this no ship with the worm and with all these important people, take it and go to Chapter House. Rather than say that, he says, quote, take this ship and go to the place you know best. End quote. Careful not to reveal too much. Right, right. And throughout their conversation, we learn basically all of this. Almost every beat of this. The planet getting sterilized, there being a diversion that draws the onirmatre out. All of this falls within Taraza's plans.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Taraza basically planned for this. And there's one small adjustment that's being made in this moment. Duncan was originally going to be bait. Duncan was going to be the thing that he is somewhere on Arrakis. And so the honored Matre are going to sterilize the planet to make sure he's dead. Well, actually, we need him and his new skills that he got from Rebella. So we're gonna bring him, or I guess the new skills he was pre programmed with from the Tleilaxu. Yeah, but we need to bring him. And instead Tag is going to, like, raise a defense and. And be probably the. The whirlwind again. Enough. So. And we're. They're going to let them think that Duncan's there so that the plan is seen through, right?

[Abu]

Yep. Yeah. Totally wild that Taraza had planned out so much of this. And Tegan o' Drait are maybe the only two other people to have connected the dots enough to see the plan through to the end here. To the sterilization of Arrakis.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's insane. And we've talked about it. We. We will be talking about Taras's plan at depth at some point. Fascinating to think about where she must have pivoted for the different, like, bits of information that were surfacing to reach her.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, to wrap up this chapter, when the no ship is pinged, basically visually falls into visibility from one of Arrakis's satellites, Tag is like, all right, we gotta go. So he gives Odrade a parting command. Quote, do what you must. That said it all. End quote. And they're off. He's off to distract all of the men. Go with him. And Bursmalli's taking over. Bruce Wall is like, what do I do? And Tag's like, don't just go, just drive. Like, what are you. Why are you talking to me? Honored Student, we've known a long time, and once again, whatever incredible moment is about to happen with Tag becoming the.

[Abu]

Whirlwind and epic final stand on Arrakis.

[Leo]

Yeah. That ends in, like, this crazy thing off page. All of it.

[Abu]

Yeah. You want to read about it? Too bad. Imagine it.

[Leo]

Too bad. Imagine it.

[Abu]

Use your imagination for once.

[Leo]

Lazy, lazy reader. Come on.

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about Chapter 47, the final chapter of this great book.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Abu]

So here we join. Okay. X amount of time later. We don't know exactly how much time has passed, but clearly time has passed. And Odrade finally has a moment to slow down, pause, process everything that's happened. Everything, including the death of Taraza Mother Superior and the transfer of Taraza's memories to Odrade. She's in fact, sitting here, still integrating them properly because it takes time for the transfer to settle in and for her to be able to access them fully. It's a moment for her to pause and reflect on the events of this book. And there's a number of revelations in this chapter about Taraza's plan. So many, actually, and there's so much to unpack there that we've actually decided that we're going to do a separate episode that is entirely focused on Taraza's plan and unpacking it fully. Even going back to those Terrazza chapters where she's just in her office and she's stressed and she's spiraling in her anxiety and she's planning and scheming, going back and reconsidering all of those through the full spoiler lens of knowing what the end game here is with the destruction of Arrakis. That's a huge conversation. And if we were to try and cram that into today's episode, we'd be here for, like, three hours. So we're gonna put a pin in that and save that for another episode coming up soon, in a couple of weeks. For now, let's just call out a couple of important details that we get from this final chapter. Perhaps one of the biggest is that Taraza was responsible for leaking Duncan's potential and his location in the Gamu Keep to the Honored Matre. She is the one that lured the Honored Matre there and effectively instigated that attack that killed Shuang Yu and decimated the Ki Bon Gamu. Obviously, that showed her to what lengths the Honored Matre were willing to go to eradicate one Golet that they saw as a. As an extreme threat.

[Leo]

That's so. That's so wild. That's huge. Yeah, because even the attack on the keep, like, all of our character perspectives were like, we. We didn't see this coming. This was crazy. Oh my God. What? And then you find out the Mother Superior was like, well, I kind of kicked that off a little bit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But that's why, you know, that's why I put Tag there.

[Abu]

Yeah. And also kind of a genius stroke in a way to get rid of Shuang Yu, who's like a very vocal opponent, you know, like a vocal internal, like political opponent of Taraza's. Two birds, one stone.

[Leo]

Yeah. That's an interesting consideration. I don't know how much that would actually be on her ledgers of like, good thing I got rid of Shuang Yu. You know, I don't think Shuang Yi was ever really a threat to Taraza's plans. But it is funny to think about her like, she's like, no, no. I tend to encourage people to have debate and to have, you know, different opinions from me. Have your heretical thoughts and then you find yourself in a death trap that she triggered to kill you. And she's like, that's what you get for disagreeing with me, bitch. You're like, what the fuck?

[Abu]

Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think it was vindictive and directed at Shuang Yu directly. But, you know, nobody's shedding a tear over Shuang Yu also getting caught up in the attack. And it was. It was just kind of like a. Here's like a write off as far as I'm concerned. Like, there's a larger plan here and if Shuang Yu also gets killed in the process, like, no sweat off my back. I feel like that was likely Taraza's approach. Again, listener, as you can tell, there's a lot to talk about within Tarazah's plan. So we're going to save this deeper conversation and revisit all those old chapters in a future episode. Lots to discuss and lots to theorize about. Because even by the end of this book, it's not like we're given like a memo about Taraza's six step plan. In this book, we still are piecing a lot of data together and connecting dots. Much like a Drayden tag, Right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, so putting a pin in the Taraza discussion for now. We also get confirmation here in this chapter about the destruction of Arrakis. In case you were wondering if Miles Teg was successful and if the Honored Matres actually went through with their sterilization. They did.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Arrakis is no more insane. And also we get confirmation that Waf is dead. Any of the face answers he had with him on the planet are dead. All the people of Arrakis are dead. Wiped out. The worms are gone. Now there's only one worm in the universe and we have it. The Sisterhood has it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Absolutely insane stuff to happen in the last 20 pages of this book.

[Leo]

It's crazy. I was really caught up in the kind of emotion of thinking about the last five books by Frank Herbert and how Arrakis has been this steady, pulsing beat of the universe that we understand where it's the Fremen and it's the desert. And even as the Fremen have changed and evolved and they've become the museum Fremen and God, emperor of Dune. And as things have shifted and evolved, Arrakis has always been there. It's always been the planet. And even as it's changed, it's always been there. So the idea now that it's just this charred, lifeless ball is like.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Feels so ungrounding.

[Abu]

It's been the heart of this story for five books now, and we just blew it up.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think it's in the title of the book because it's Arrakis, AKA Dune. So. Bye.

[Abu]

It's kind of sad, you know, like RIP to our guy.

[Leo]

Arrakis, the whole planet with all the humans. There were probably some tuics down there. Oh, no, for real.

[Abu]

I mean, all of these innocents getting caught up in it as well is kind of also brushed under the rug here.

[Leo]

Billions of. Of lives.

[Abu]

They were just like normal people living on Arrakis, too.

[Leo]

Bartenders, all of them.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. Just caught. Caught up in this wild war between the Bene Gesserit and the honored matre. Now, a couple of other details we capture from Odrade's musings here as she is sitting in Taraza's old office or something, her old study. Important details to call out. First of all, we learned that the Bene Gesserit leadership is in disarray. There's been a really intense council meeting that a dread just ended. And there's disagreement within the leadership council of the Bene Gesserit, especially given o' draid's unconventional rise to power. Like in the moment in the battlefield, she became the new Mother Superior. We are also told that the ever opinionated Belinda.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

Always got to chime in at these goddamn meetings. Belinda, for once, just mute your mic.

[Leo]

I see you raising your hand, Belanda. I'm not going to get to comments at the. We're gonna do comments and questions at the end. Belanda. You can Stop. We already saw you raise your hand, Blond. She's the worst.

[Abu]

Zoom meeting participant Belanda has expressed her worry that the Sisterhood is now in this, like, purely defensive position. Were hunkered down for, quote, the long night of the whores. End quote. Belinda thinks they're in a weaker position, in a defensive position, backs against the wall. And that the honored Montreal are winning. She's worried about that.

[Leo]

Okay, Belanda, you just turned on your camera to flick us all off. That is immature. Inappropriate.

[Abu]

Belinda, don't make me ban you from this Zoom call. I can do that. I'm the host.

[Leo]

I'm the host. Belinda.

[Abu]

One more. You got one more strike, Blonda. God damn it.

[Leo]

Stop raising your hand.

[Abu]

We also learn here from Madre's thoughts that Shiana is invisible to prescience, as we know she is a descendant of Siona. Great, she's got those genes. But the Duncan ghola is a bit of an unknown.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is he?

[Leo]

Who's to say?

[Abu]

Immune to prescient. Who's to say? It would be a huge risk for him to leave the Gnoship. So for now, he is actually being contained within the Gnos ship and not allowed to leave. He's under house arrest.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Because the Bene Gesserit can't risk prescient beings finding Duncan and thus finding Chapterhouse Planet. Finding the home base of the Sisterhood, that would be a nightmare.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So he's under house arrest.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

We also get confirmation, actually, about why Duncan got so many memories back. Remember we were talking in a previous episode about why this Gola is unique and different and has access to all of his Gola memories? There's a line here that explains he's kind of like an amalgamation of many Gola genetics, the Tleilax, who have been, like, saving the many Gola genes. And he's this weird, like, zombified Gola of all of them combined. Which is why, when his memories were triggered with Murbella, he got access to all of them. All of his genetic memories awakened, which is kind of cool. We got, like, an answer to the question of why. Why the unique scenario for this Gola in particular.

[Leo]

That's true. Yeah. It's not just as simple as we had some genetic material from the one who died to the Sardaukar, and that's how we grew this one. He is an amalgam. That's true. I do wonder if there's still something kind of prescience awakening mind at its beginning, true reality stuff going on. Like Frank's sort of supernatural stuff where this ghola, for whatever reason, has access to this stuff. But, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's a very interesting point.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. We at least get sort of an in universe logical explanation for why this is happening and it's not just brushed away as whatever. He's dunking motherfucking Idaho. He's special. Stop asking questions.

[Leo]

Yeah, you've seen him climb a wall.

[Abu]

A couple other details here to call out. The honored Matre Merbella. Remember her? She's pregnant. Duncan got her pregnant. She's about to have Duncan Idaho's baby.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And she will be taught, slash, indoctrinated into the sisterhood kind of. Kind of willingly. She, Murbella wants to do this as well, now that she's on Chapter House Planet. And the sisterhood are well aware of the risks of betrayal here.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Abu]

Murbella could simply be, like, acting as a double agent, wanting to learn everything she can about this sisterhood and then run away and tell the honored madre. But o' Draid, as she tells Duncan at the end of this chapter, she's confident that once we get them, we never really lose them. And so once we get Murbella and truly convince her of the sisterhood's vision, we're not gonna lose her.

[Leo]

I love that line where Duncan's like, you never lose someone once they've been indoctrinated. What about fucking Jessica? And she goes, yeah, she came back to us in the end. You know, she. She became loyal to the Bene Gesserit again. It's like, you know, there might be moments of betrayal, but there's always the belief in that sort of noble purpose.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Or whatever it is.

[Abu]

Right. Shuang Yu, another example. In the end, she still did what was best for the sisterhood, for sure. Finally. And we're going to talk about this in our takeaway later, we learn that Tegu Miles Tagg has left a last will and testament quote planted in the Gnoship's sub molecular storage systems. End quote. And there is a lot in this chapter about Tague's last will and testament that is very interesting, very thematically resonant. And we're going to pick all of that apart in the takeaway later. So put a pin in that. We will revisit that shortly. Let's round out this book. At the end, Odrade takes a thopter to the Gnosthip where Duncan is being kept. They have a conversation that touches on a number of different topics. Duncan refusing to be a stud. Very on brand for him. Classic conversations about Murbella's future. What's going to happen to her, will she join the sisterhood, that sort of thing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Ultimately, Odrade tells Duncan more about Tarazah's plan, explaining the reason for the destruction of Arrakis and the death of all the worms. They were an oracular force holding us in bondage. Those pearls of the tyrant's awareness magnified that hold. He didn't predict events, he created them. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Wow.

[Abu]

Amazing stuff. Something that Taraza clearly recognized as well.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think this is where I'm going to add in here. Just a quick note about the epigraph in this chapter. I'm going to just read it because I think it's interesting how this reflects all the way back to literally our conversations about Paul, the young and first prescient person in the universe, basically. So the epigraph reads, quote, we are not looking at a new state of matter, but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The Oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metalworkers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continue to operate their forges and wield their hammers. End quote. First of all, just what a banger epigraph. Like, what an excellent. Just an excellent bit of writing. And this is. This is a pattern within Dune. You know, we've talked about, like, technology that gets a certain degree of advanced will just start looking like magic. It'll just start looking, you know, the people, the tin workers, the people making steel and bronze and copper, created a vocabulary to describe what they were doing that was based on mystical powers, but ultimately was relating to how the universe works and how molecules and submolecules work. So I also like this because I think from the first day we've talked about how Dune is broadly a kind. It's not hard fiction, it's not hard science fiction, because he's not really getting into. He's not like Andy Weir getting into, like, how the things work. He's not really bothered with it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But it has always felt like. And I've definitely said this to people where I'm like, it's mostly pretty much grounded in what people can do. The one exception to that is how prescience works. Where we go. That's kind of the superpower of Dune. That doesn't really. That we don't really see it tried to be justified in any kind of biology or in any kind of. Like, this is how this works.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

But this is. This epigraph is saying, there is a force there.

[Abu]

There is a power there, which there's a force here.

[Leo]

And maybe. And again, this is where science fiction can start to be a little bit more plausible. Maybe in 30,000 years with really intentional breeding, you will get people who can kind of unravel what that next event looks like, and maybe they're even forming it and making it happen like we're talking about. But just because we don't understand the baseline elements of how the tyrant's consciousness or his pearls are affecting humanity's, you know, movement forward into that next moment, just because we can't explain that doesn't mean we can't take it into consideration as we make our plans.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I like. I like the fact that this epigraph and this chapter is grounding prescience as something that we're just on the cusp of understanding 35,000 years in the future, but is not. Still is not like a superpower X Men mutant thing. This is still rooted basically in what humans are capable of. And I can't help but think about Frank calling every one of those 52 cards with his date in front of the fireplace, right like this. The author is someone who believes that the human consciousness is capable of more than perhaps we're aware of at this moment, certainly.

[Abu]

And Frank always believed in, like, there is an unexplainable and unmeasurable universe that we have yet to discover out there that affects our daily lives. And gravity affected people before that apple fell on Isaac Newton's head. Bright science has affected people before they understood how it actually worked.

[Leo]

Bars.

[Abu]

And that's what o' Draid is telling Duncan here. Okay, there's your mini takeaway for the day, folks. The final moments of this chapter. To wrap up this summary, o' Draid pays a visit to the last worm in the known universe and tells it. Hey, worm. Look at me, bitch. We know your language now.

[Leo]

You got an ice worm. Look at these middle fingers. What up?

[Abu]

She basically talks about how, through their understanding of Shiana's dance and the ideas around C and oak and the dance and the rhythms that we've touched on throughout the course of this book club, the Bene Gesserit have also begun to understand the language of the worm, the language of that pearl of wisdom within the worm. And thus they can begin to master it. Kind of like you're saying with the idea of prescience, we don't know how it works yet, but we're starting to maybe learn the language now, and we're on our path to mastering it. And here are the final words of the chapter, which I thought were pretty powerful. Softly she called down to him. The worm is a him, I guess. Softly she called down to him, hey, old Wyrm, was this your design? There was no answer. But then she had not really expected an answer. End quote. The final words of Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

There you have it.

[Abu]

I love it. Ah, so good. That's Heretics of Dune, folks. And that's the summary of the last two chapters. Of course, we still have to talk about the last will and testament of Miles. Tag. We're not done talking about this guy. That's coming up right after a short break, so stick around. We're going to get into our takeaway right after this. Savor every last drop of summer with Starbucks. From bold refreshers to rich cold brews. The sunniest season only gets better with the handcrafted ice beverage in your hand. Available for a limited time. Your summer favorites are ready at Starbucks.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. We finished the book. Now let's talk about the last will and testament of Miles Tag. The statements he left behind in his will. It sounds so much like one of Leto's journals. And that, of course, feels very appropriate. This is also the kind of stuff that you would expect to hear in an interview with Frank. So, you know, between his. His appearances on PBS and his various, you know, UCLA talks and all that, he's like, I'm going to write some of my thoughts down here. Spoken from the tallest, hottest man I've ever conceived of, you know, so we're going to examine Tag's message. We're going to theorize about why he kind of felt it was important to pass on these specific thoughts and then connect these ideas to some broader, larger Dune themes.

[Abu]

That's right. So let's dive deep into the last will and testament of Miles Teg, the Rizat's Haderach.

[Leo]

Whoa.

[Abu]

Which is an amazing joke that Matt just dropped in the chat. I love that.

[Leo]

Excellent.

[Abu]

Miles Tegg does have the Rizz.

[Leo]

He's got the Rizz for sure.

[Abu]

Let's start with maybe arguably the most important piece of information that Teg leaves behind for the Benny Cesare, which is all of the knowledge he's gathered about the honored and his interactions with them and his experiences throughout this book. This is critical intel for the Bene Gesserit's war effort and for their continued survival. Balanda's out here like we're backed against the wall. We're fucked here. Miles Tag has given them everything he knows so that they can move forward as strategically as possible. Tag writes specifically about their wealth in this will and Testament. He talks about their mo of working through agents like Muzaffar. In the field, you seldom learn the names of the truly wealthy and powerful. You see only their spokesmen. The political arena makes a few exceptions to this, but does not reveal the full power structure. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, shit. God damn it, Frank. That bars. Bars.

[Abu]

Absolutely. And honestly, that is so thematically in line with, I don't know, literally everything we've been talking about. Since the first Dune book, many of Frank's warnings have been against the rich, the powerful, whether they're charismatic leaders, whether it's like a person, or their institutions, like the Bene Gesserit or religious institutions. This serves as another warning that the names of the rich and powerful you will seldom ever learn. You will only work through their spokesman. And this is how the honored mater operate. It serves as another warning.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I like that he makes the distinction that, like, yeah, the political arena makes exceptions to this. Like, you might occasionally have someone who is truly wealthy and rich and powerful. But even in those situations, you're not seeing the full power structure. You don't fully comprehend how they're disseminating that. That wealth and power. And of course, I can't help but think about today's world in which we have people with hundreds of billions of dollars. But it's like, where. Where are they exerting all of their power and influence? You'll never see that laid out clearly, because the second you do the second you're like, oh, we are so fucked. We are so under the thumb of this person.

[Abu]

Yeah. And I mean, this is practically just Frank speaking, you know, like. Yeah, this is. This echoes, like, much of what he said in interviews. And if you look, if you've listened to our interviews with Frank Herbert episodes, we've talked about statements he's made like this. He was quite against big government, practically. That's kind of an oversimplified way to talk about his views. But he was certainly against powerful people exerting control and throwing their wealth around. This is a frank statement, practically.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Abu]

But in universe, I think it's a important statement from Miles Tagg as well, because this intel that he's passing on about the Lost Ones are making the Bene Gesserit stop and think. It's forcing them to reconsider and revise their historical records.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

To go back and think twice about the assumptions they've been making for millennia now. It's shaking them out of this bias and out of this stagnation and out of this dogma. So I think it serves a double purpose. Yes, it's intel for the war effort against the Honored Matre. But this is stuff they had not pieced together, and now they have to reconsider. Like, okay, all of the other memory and history and things we've been relying on are maybe not the full picture, and it's time for us to think differently, to think outside of the box of the Bene Gesserit. So it serves as a way to shake them up as well.

[Leo]

Yeah, just huge. Especially considering all of Leto's warnings about historians and about relying too much on the histories and the books and stuff. If the Bene Gesserit have these archives and have people like Balando, like Mintats, who have just all of this data, and then they're not focusing on it with this new examining eye, what are they doing other than kind of like feeding into the. Drinking their own Kool Aid. Right. Sampling their own supply.

[Abu]

Exactly. Yep.

[Leo]

Now, Teg's will continues down exactly that route of kind of questioning the Kool Aid, questioning the historians, touching on the fact that the historical record as a body of work is often more about what isn't said than what is. Right. And I thought this was again, of the quotes that are so much better than Fears of the Mind Killer. This is on the list, for sure. Quote, the writing of history is largely a process of diversion. Most historical accounts divert attention from the secret influences around the recorded events. End quote. Damn Amazing the amount of like history that I was taught as an American citizen that I then have to go back and go, wait, the CIA started that coup that led to us stepping in and like the number of times that is part of the official history that I was taught is crazy. Oh yeah, And I understand why people fall down these rabbit holes and end up on conspiracy theory boards because actually when you look at history textbooks, so much is not recorded and so much is not talked about that it starts feeling like a conspiracy. Because you're going, why are you hiding this shit? I was very lucky to be raised in Berkeley, California where I was learning a lot about, just more, I guess about the history of this country. But like, man, it does feel conspiratorial at a certain point.

[Abu]

Certainly self serving, you know, it doesn't always have to be a conspiracy with malicious intents.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

I would say, I would argue most of the time it is just like natural self serving behavior. You are, you are going to make yourself look good and like that's not always malicious. Every culture is always going to put itself first before any other culture and it's always going to present itself in as good of a light as it, as it can. To some extent that's like necessary for social cohesion within a society. But this does, it's. I completely agree with this statement that Miles Tagg has made, slash Frank Herbert has made. And I, I think it's something that's important to keep in mind. But you're right that it also leads to like spiraling conspiracy. And it like the funny part about conspiracies is like conspiracies don't necessarily work because of human nature. Like someone, if there was some like wide ranging wild conspiracy, like there's always one guy who fucks up.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Like you can't, like you can't keep everything like airtight forever. So like that's what I always find so funny about conspiracy theories is like they almost disregard normal human nature, which inherently is just like self serving.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's a good point. I think there's that, that quote, it's like, how do you keep a secret with two people? Like, how do you keep a secret from leaking from two people? You shoot one of them. That's how you, that's how you keep them is yeah, for sure. Everyone has their own perspective and what gets codified is the perspective of the people who get to write the textbooks.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

Hey, this is what happened and that's fine. But it is through self preservation. People don't want to actively pick apart the ways in which they can be perceived as the bad side or the evil side of like people aren't, aren't opting into that very frequently. So with that bias in mind, all of the history books start to feel very self celebratory where you're going, look at all the ways in which we've been the heroes over the. And, and they just are never examining the other side of the, of the very real, very human story, certainly. So I, I don't know, I loved it. And this is also very in line, as you're saying, with Frank's opinions and Leito's opinions. Lato too was out here saying, hey, we should burn historians at the stake because they fucking suck. If he heard this from one of his, you know, many Atreides descendants, he'd be doing kick flips on his part. He'd be, he'd be pop, shoving it off of ramps. Moneo, watch this.

[Abu]

Like, oh my God, record this, record this, record this.

[Leo]

Send it to Thrasher magazine. It's like, I don't know what that is.

[Abu]

Tony Hawk would have loved this. And Moneo's like, I don't know a Tony Hawk? Who you talking about?

[Leo]

What is that, a tiny bird? I don't know what kind of bird a Tony Hawk is like, but yeah, he'd be over the moon. He'd be so happy. Over the two moons of Arrakis. I mean, history is a recollection of events through the victor's perspective. A futile attempt, as I'm sure later would say, to capture the truth of the human experience in mere words. All that. In a word, Lord.

[Abu]

Mere word.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

Never enough.

[Leo]

What is a kickflip but just mere words? And in a deeply, deeply cynical observation, Tag even lists the various ways that the few histories that aren't basically diverting attention vanish over time because the threat they pose to those in power, right, like the, the ones that are really out here being pretty objective about like, what happened, those are a threat. So he says, quote, destruction of as many copies as possible, burying the two revealing accounts in ridicule, ignoring them in the centers of education, ensuring that they are not quoted elsewhere, and in some cases, elimination of the authors.

[Abu]

Yeah. And ooh, I loved that. This quote gave me chills.

[Leo]

It's so good because you just look.

[Abu]

At the world we're living in today and like, yes, if you live in America, all of these things are happening.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like quite openly, out in the open. You know, no one is even being shy about these Things happening.

[Leo]

The. The fucking idea of book bans and the idea of, like, we should not allow you to read books. It's wild. And it's exactly this.

[Abu]

Bro. My blood pressure, the thought of banning books just, like, makes me want to get a guillotine out, unpack my guillotine from the garage. You know, finally assembled that thing, dust.

[Leo]

It off, charge it. Still a micro USB charger, though, so you got to get the old cables. It's tough because, like. Sure. So there are some US States right now that are saying you have to study the Bible in middle of middle school, high school, whatever. And as a Buddhist and as a non Christian, I'm like, yeah, sure, the book's super influential in the Western culture. So I could see saying, like, this is an important book to be a little bit familiar with. I get that. I can concede that. But when you're doing that in the same districts where you're going and you're not allowed to read, like, anything that's critical of X, Y, and Z, or you're not allowed to read books that have LGBTQ people in them, or you're not. It's like, this is. I don't want to say tyranny. It's fucking tyranny.

[Abu]

It's tyranny. It's fascist. It's authoritarian.

[Leo]

It's fascist. Crazy.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And look, it cuts both ways. And, like, I think this is where people have trouble. It's just like. I don't know if I should even say this on the record. Don't ban Mein Kampf.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It should still exist.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Put a forward at the front that says, this is fucked up and written by a fucked up person. Sure. Put it in context. But to ban it and pretend it doesn't exist.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Does more damage.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It removes the possibility of reading a heinous thing and going, wait, this is fucked up. We should maybe never do this.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so, like, it's. It. It cuts both ways. You know, it's not just, like, only cut the, like, beliefs you disagree with or that are abhorrent. It's. It's also. You have to keep the. Like. It is okay for a book or an idea to make you uncomfortable and angry and sad and, like, despise the thing. But that's the point. And I think that's what Tag and Frank are really getting at here, is, like, societies trend. Human societies, like, writ large, you know, we're not talking about, like, one person, one institution, one government. But there is a tendency throughout human history to record one step, one record human history. Some of it's going to be biased, right? Some of it's going to be the American Indians and the settlers got along. Kumbaya. Some of it's going to be like Killers of the Flower Moon, where it's like we literally killed them off. Those two truths exist. But the tendency over time as one world power grows, as America, for example, grows and native culture dies out, is for that one version of events to supersede the other, right? And Tag is saying destruction of copies, ignoring that in centers of education. You and I went through the American public education system. I did not know about the events of the Killers of the Flower Moon until last year when I read the book and realized, yeah, oh, oh, this was an intentional eradication by the government of an entire people. The American government committed genocide in America. Nobody says that. No teacher in fifth grade fucking says those words to you. But it's the truth. Or, you know, and I think like, this is such a. This is the kind of observation from Frank that makes you stop and like really rethink your worldview. And it has certainly done so for me because it makes you reexamine like what you are exposed to, what you are not exposed to, what is said in recorded history, and more importantly, as Miles is warning the Bene Gesserit, what isn't said in the recorded history that survives. It may have been recorded at some point, but it slowly died out because of the natural instincts of humans to self persevere and to preserve their version of the. Their culture and their version of the story. It really gave me a lot to think about.

[Leo]

Yeah, same. And I think this is also why Frank's books are so salient so many years later. They were written with this conviction and this desire to communicate. This especially ignoring things in the centers of education is the one that really gets under my skin because it's so easy to just not include things in the curriculum. And you just, you do it because you're like, oh, there's better things, right? But that is a destructive pattern because then the core of people's education becomes. You know, it's so funny, I almost wanted to do like a little clip at some point of just the Frank Herbert that got into fourth wing where Rebecca Yarris was talking about, it only takes like two generations to change history.

[Abu]

Oh, cool. Interesting. That's in the book. I don't remember that line.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Oh, cool.

[Leo]

The scribes, basically all of the scribes were rewrote the histories, getting rid of all this stuff, like the Venin and all that shit. And then one generation passes and then everyone only has the histories that were preserved and that changed all of history. And that's why the scribes have the most power in that universe. But it's like, yeah, it's really. You're right. It definitely makes you step back and go, oh, my God. This really has emotional resonance within my own experience and life in an educational system. And I tend to think that I had a pretty good education. But then you come away from it and you go to other places in the world and you go, holy shit, this is wild. It's insane.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. I went to one of the whitest and wealthiest school districts in Ohio. I had a great education. I got very lucky with that. And yet here I am learning about shit that I should have been taught in school decades later.

[Leo]

Yeah, like, it comes down to, like, individuals sharing their experiences and humans sharing their stories. And then you go, wait, I had this great thorough education. I've always been intellectually curious. I've been reading books and watching video essays and doing all sorts of stuff for decades, and I only am now hearing about this as fucking crazy.

[Abu]

And I think inherent in that is Miles Teague's warning with this. Right. His purpose in leaving this bit of wisdom for the Bene Gesserit is to implant this warning for them to say, hey, Bene Gesserit, don't rely so heavily on your archives. Don't rely so heavily on your other memory. It is not the end all, be all of human history. Consider how much of history isn't captured and preserved over time. Despite how perfect your other memory might be, despite how expansive your archives might be, consider how much is not in there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's such a powerful warning from Miles Tegg to one of the most powerful and subtly influential organizations in Dune history. And I think inherent in his warning here is you have to kind of come to terms with the fact that what we don't know about human history actually vastly overshadows what we do know. We have a small sliver of human history written down, and even that sliver, as we've talked about, is the result of many acts of self preservation and distraction and propaganda. And it's important to not fall into the trap of thinking we have the comprehensive view of human history and thus we know what's best going forward. Kind of coming to terms with your own ignorance of it. Powerful stuff, and I think ultimately like a deeply humbling sentiment. Again, as I was scripting, as I was reading this made me pause and sit back and kind of go, oh, wow, we have so much recorded human history. A tiny fraction of a fraction of actual human history. It's really beautiful. I really loved this sentiment a lot. And we've already touched on how, yes, that can kind of go the wrong way into like overly conspiratorial thinking. And suddenly Hillary Clinton is running a pedophile ring under a Pizza Hut or something and they're all lizards and everyone's a lizard or something. Obviously, like, what you don't know is not an excuse to then also push your own agenda and wild theories. But I think that's not what Frank is saying at all here. Frank is saying, like, it is important to understand that we don't know the full breadth of human history. We will never know the full breadth of human history. And it is arrogant and shortsighted to think you do and to think because you know everything, you know what's best for everyone. Which I think is a beautiful and powerful message.

[Leo]

Yeah. I would also expand that into the present moment as well, where we talk about consciousness and the way that we witness and experience the moment is so often curated by our understanding and our vocabulary and what we're conditioned to understand and experience. The amount of stuff that happens to us that then within a second or two we go, how was, oh, what was I thinking? What was happening to me in the last hour? I was kind of hungry.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And that's everything that you're left with from that moment of like endless awareness.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like we are constantly curating our own experience of reality through the lens that we've been equipped with by society and by language. All that in a word, Lord, indeed. Again, you see a kick flip from a 40 yard long worm and you go, that was rad. Rad is all that's left of it, right? You know?

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

And not the fact that somehow he got the Ixian suspensers to go all the way around. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Get this worm in the X Games, baby.

[Leo]

It's fucking rad. Is 1% of it. 99% of it was just lost. And 99% of it goes beyond even what you're aware of. I mean, even just the example of like you live next to a waterfall for long enough, you don't hear the waterfall anymore. Like the number of things that we're just blind to. And then we're the fucking historians. We're the ones that are being trusted to write down everything and record. It's like, no. So I completely agree. I think there's It's a deeply humbling sentiment and it's one that is so useful. It's like, this is a sci fi book.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And I'm coming away from it with a new appreciation for human awareness and the pitfalls of history. It's like, beautiful.

[Abu]

This is what makes Frank's book so special and so iconic. I also want to shout out Takako in the chat. I think Takako made a really wonderful observation. When you think about it, Benny Jesuit shared memory is a collection of subjective memories. Not objective at all.

[Leo]

Yeah. Which is huge. Yeah. I mean, again, they go back to that other memory and they go, he did a fucking rad kickflip. And it's like, was there anything else to that moment? Well, it depends on the memory of the person who witnessed it. And yeah, the subjectivity is baked in at every level.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And that's also where we see that kind of indoctrination, like the indoctrination within the Bene Gesserit way of thinking and why it's so important to have heretics, hence the book is because of those generational pitfalls, I'll also say. So, moving on, the Odrade's thoughts circle back to the idea of scapegoats. And this is another way in which truth can vanish. Right. So Tag has outlined a few of them, but there's another way, quote, not to mention the scapegoat process that brought death to more than one messenger bearing unwelcome news. Odrade thought. End quote. And I thought this was really remarkable because, you know, just a chapter ago, this penultimate chapter, Teg was pondering the idea, the reason for scapegoats. Right. Quote, how easy it was to produce scapegoats and how readily they were accepted. This was especially true when the alternative was to find yourself either guilty or stupid or both. End quote. So funny. Like, scapegoats are just as an idea. Scapegoats are used by the influential, by the powerful to save face. They don't want to be found to be stupid or incompetent or guilty of doing the thing. And so, just as history is written to divert people's attention away from the perspective of the victims or the perspective of those who got obliterated in the war or whatever. The idea of scapegoats exists there as a diversion from, well, it was that guy's fault. He did it.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And we're not stupid or guilty or fucking, you know, just making it up as we go along.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's dangerous to accept the idea of scapegoats. And basically along the same lines, it's dangerous to accept history as just that is what happened and there's no further depth to the narrative. That's right.

[Abu]

And I think at face value is the thing a scapegoat presented to you. To just accept it at face value and not question why is a failure. And I think Tag and Frank are also stating to accept the history that has been recorded and that you have in your hands at face value as the objective and all encompassing truth without questioning what else may have been going on that in between the lines that is unwritten, that is also a failure. And I think this is a beautiful warning not only for us, but also for the Bene Gesserit from Tag, Frank, Slash, probably Leto as well. It's wild stuff and I love that this book titled Heretics of Dune is asking the Bene Gesserit and us, the reader, to entertain heretical thoughts. It's okay to ask why, you know, this entire book is just a giant but why, but why should we maybe wonder about that more? And should we ask the questions that other people aren't asking? Maybe this book is just like on a deeper thematic level is essentially Frank yelling that from the rooftops. And I love it. Warning against that overconfidence and arrogance of thinking you do know it all already. Which for what it's worth the under madre. That's how they behave.

[Leo]

Yeah, the scum outside, right? Yeah, the muck.

[Abu]

Love it. What a great last will and testament from a total legend. And I think o' Draid actually put it best. Rest in peace to a real one. Miles Tag, the great Heretic.

[Leo]

Capital G, capital H. Hell yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, that is our takeaway for today. We're going to share some morsels just after one last quick break. So don't go anywhere. Dear listener. We will be right back right after this.

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[Leo]

Go to your happy price price line.

[Abu]

Welcome back folks. Let's wrap up today's episode.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

By Chomping down on some delicious, scrumptious spice morsels. We have two quick bites for you today. Morsel number one. Lagered up. Laggard up. There's two ways. Somebody explain how to say that. Our first morsel, a very quick one. Belanda, in today's reading, accuses the. You know, she pings the zoom call over and over and over again until someone unmutes her.

[Leo]

Belanda, we see you. Stop raising your hand. She's emoji reacting. All eggplants. What the fuck.

[Abu]

Is so horny? Jesus. Eggplant, eggplant, eggplant. Water splash. Water splash. Water splash. Peach, peach, peach. The blonda.

[Leo]

Stop. This is a work call and you're raising your hand. What do you want?

[Abu]

Balanda accuses the Bene Gesserit council. Quote, we have loggered up. And shortly after that, we get a bit of an explanation. Quote, they had retreated into a fortress position for the long night of the whores. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that explains what loggered up means within that context of what Balanda is saying on the zoom call. Yeah, but we were curious what the actual definition of lager means, so we looked it up. According to this guy Webster, if you want to believe it, the history that this guy's written. Webster, his version of history, this fucker lager means, quote, an encampment protected by a circle of wagons or armored vehicles, end quote. Kind of like cowboy shootout style, you know? Yeehaw.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Westworld.

[Leo]

Hell yeah.

[Abu]

And as always, you dug into the words etymology. You're always very curious about these things. Of course, the etymology goes through Afrikaans to the German word lager, which y' all might be more familiar with. Lager like beer and is taken from the German word for storage. Bit of an etymology lesson on lager.

[Leo]

Yeah. I also do think with the concept of, like, Arrakis's defenses being stagnant, and that danger that is also implicit within Balanda saying, we have loggered up. Oh, this is so fucked. We're just in a defensive position.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

We're going to become stagnant and we're going to become vulnerable. And I think that's also more resonant to think about. We have loggered up as this. Like, we've just made our little fortress. We've just little. Made our little, like, circle of wagons, and now we're just gonna wait.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Fuck that. And it's like, yeah, maybe we should let her unmute sometimes.

[Abu]

Right. We're hiding a worm and we're just gonna hold. We're gonna turtle up. Yeah, it's very. It's a very annoying strategy in like RTS games, you know, don't turtle up. That's enough.

[Leo]

I kind of get it, why she keeps raising her hand in the zoom call.

[Abu]

Again, she has a point, but stop, right? The eggplant emojis are still not work appropriate, but still.

[Leo]

Yeah, she makes a good point. She invited me to go break away just to raise her hand some more. It was crazy. So that's our first morsel, our second morsel. Another really quick one is what do no ships? What do they look like? And this is partially because, you know, Frank introduced us to this idea of no ships in this book, right? Space faring vessels. They dodge all forms of long form detection, Radio, X ray, all sorts of stuff. And this concept is built upon the prescient no rooms that we saw in God, Emperor of Dune, right, Where HWI NRI was raised, where Leto hid all of his journals. These were rooms that avoided any kind of long form detection. Now, as always, Frank doesn't fucking describe anything. He'll like, tell you everything a character's thinking.

[Abu]

Use your imagination.

[Leo]

Just use your imagination, I guess. Picture what you want, who cares? And searching. What do no ships look like? You get tons of like Reddit conversations where people going, I think it looks like a saucer. I think it looks like a ball. I think it looks like a big whatever. A lot of opinions out there.

[Abu]

I think it looks like an eggplant.

[Leo]

I think it looks like an eggplant emoji with. With water splashes as the propulsion. It's just as it's flying through space. And I will say, among all of the Internet discussions, there is one description that is provided by Frank of no ships. And it's in today's reading. So I just wanted to take a beat and celebrate the fact that we have now gotten, as of today's episode, all of Frank's like, detailed descriptions of no ships. Okay, are you ready for this? This is the penultimate chapter.

[Abu]

I'm buckled up.

[Leo]

Quote, the no ship sat there creaking, a glistening steely ball whose presence could be detected by the eyes and ears, but not by any prescient or long range instrument. End quote. All right, so it's just a pachinko ball. Just a big old ball. And granted, like, yeah, we heard the no ship fortresses were like moons in the sky, right? And things like that. But ultimately, this is pretty much the only time he's describing just a ship sitting in the sun. And it is worth Noting that the COVID of Dune Chapter House actually depicts basically the no ship on Chapter House planet. And this was the first edition chapter that was illustrated by John Schoenher, who, like, presumably this is a cover Frank had to write off on. And he said, yeah, that looks about right. That works for the COVID of my book. So in any case, we can use that as a little bit of a reference. Nevertheless, Steely Ball, that's what we've got. That's what no ships look like.

[Abu]

Okay, well, that wraps up our episode today, folks. There are your spice morsels. Just a couple of quick bites. Here's what's happening next. You all might be wondering, oh, no, oh no. What's in the future? Use your prescience to tell us. Bind us into the future, dear hosts.

[Leo]

Create the future.

[Abu]

Create the future. We are planning two more Heretics of Dune focused episodes as follow ups now that we've completed the book before we wrap up our journey with Heretics and start thinking about that little book called Chapter House in the future. Yeah, so here's what's coming up next. First, we're going to have a live Q and A for our patrons, much like today's live recording on YouTube. In this Q and A, we're going to debrief about our feelings on the book. We've both kind of been hinting throughout the book club that our appreciation for heretics has grown and the insights that we've gathered in this deep dive have changed our perspectives on it. So we're going to debrief on how we feel about the book at large, where the book kind of falls within the Zeitgeist of Dune fandom and all that good stuff. But of course, the primary function of that episode will be to answer any lingering questions, questions that we have, and of course, more importantly, questions that you, our dear listeners, have. So, folks, can either email us those questions ahead of time and we'll just make sure to have them in the script ready to go. Yeah, you can drop those questions in Discord. There's a mailbag questions channel that you can drop them in, or if you're able to, you can participate in the live Q and A itself, hang out and chat with us, and be a part of that discussion live. And we'll talk about the book, spoilers and all. After that, we're gonna have, as we mentioned earlier, a special episode that focuses entirely on Taraza's plan. We're gonna spend that whole episode untangling and analyzing Taraza's plan throughout this book and laying it out in a way that hopefully makes it clear what was happening this whole time in Taraza's mind and what she was scheming in an attempt to sort of understand this book more. Because Taraz's plan really does underpin a lot of this book. She is pulling a lot of the strings. So that'll be an episode we will do in the coming weeks as well, before we close up our journey with heretics and move on.

[Leo]

Well, before we let you go, dear Listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and keep in touch with us. We genuinely cannot do this show without the support we get. So if you are interested in helping us continue to make more GOM Jabbar, the two best ways to support us, of course is 1 to become a patron and 2 to grab some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. I think Patreon in particular is the best way to support us. For as little as $2 a month you can support us. But for $5 a month you get kind of cool inter access to stuff. So if you can do that, check out patreon.com gomjabbar Consider becoming a patron.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, one last reminder that we'd love to hear from you. So email Gus Gom Jabbar PodcastMail.com is the place. And to reach out, say hello to send us your thoughts and your questions and your theories about Heretics of Dune or other Dune stuff or anything. You know, just say hello, tell us how your day is going, send us cute pictures for your pets. Gomjabarpodcastmail.com we promise we do see all those emails. We are so behind on emails. We'll get to them someday. But we do read them. We just don't always respond because we don't have time.

[Leo]

That's true.

[Abu]

In particular, I want to remind folks, if you have questions for the upcoming Heretics of Dune Q and a episode, gamjabarpodcastmail.com Great place to put those. It helps us go back and gather them and put them in the script so we can make sure to talk about them in the episode.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's true. I'm seeing Belinda has her hand raised. I didn't know she was on this call.

[Abu]

Has she been recording?

[Leo]

When did she join? I didn't. Has she? She's the secret third host and producer of Gam Jabbar. Yeah, she still has her hand up. She keeps pinging.

[Abu]

Does she know she's not a host.

[Leo]

Does she know how this works? I don't think she has a micro camera set up. She's just girl what are you doing? What are you Blonda who invited you.

[Abu]

To this recording session?

[Leo]

I thought you were a men tatters who would have loved your insight into this. This whole time we've been making this.

[Abu]

Whole podcast without you.

[Leo]

You.

[Abu]

You've just been there this whole time?

[Leo]

Oh my God.

[Abu]

Should we kick her?

[Leo]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. Will see you on the golden path. Sa.