Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 7)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Episode: Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 7)
Release Date: February 7, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Podcast Series Description: Gom Jabbar serves as the ultimate guide to the Dune universe, catering to both longtime enthusiasts and newcomers. Hosts Abu and Leo delve deep into the expansive Dune lore, covering Frank Herbert's seminal novels, HBO's television adaptations, and Denis Villeneuve's blockbuster films. New episodes are released every other Friday.

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Episode Overview

In this seventh installment of the Heretics of Dune Book Club series, hosts Abu and Leo explore the intricate developments within the novel, focusing on pivotal chapters that advance the storyline and deepen the Dune universe's complex political and cultural landscape. The episode is structured into several key sections: Chapter Summaries, In-Depth Takeaways, Spice Morsel, and Closing Remarks, each enriched with notable quotes and insightful analysis.

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1. Chapter Summaries

Chapter 19: Taraza vs. Waf

The episode opens with a tense meeting between Mother Superior Taraza of the Bene Gesserit and Master of Masters Tillwith Waf of the Tleilaxu. This confrontation arises from Odrade's provocative message, prompting both factions to negotiate.

• Key Points:

  • Power Dynamics: Taraza maintains dominance during the negotiation, displaying superior strategic prowess compared to Waf.
  • Bene Gesserit Strategy: Taraza's approach involves layered bluffing and playing multiple scenarios, showcasing the Bene Gesserit's meticulous planning despite limited information about the Tleilaxu.
  • Waf's Frustration: Waf grapples with the Bene Gesserit's seemingly omnipresent influence, contemplating the use of violence as his bargaining chip.

• Notable Quote:

  "She's just playing like a choose your own adventure game."
  — Abu [06:57]

Chapter 20: Odrade's Reflections

This chapter delves into Odrade's internal monologue as she awaits Shiana's arrival. Her reflections reveal deep insights into Bene Gesserit training, the institution's vast hierarchy, and her personal sacrifices.

• Key Points:

  • Training and Sacrifice: Odrade reminisces about the grueling Bene Gesserit training and the various roles members assume if they don't ascend to higher ranks.
  • Emotional Struggles: Odrade contemplates the denial of love and personal relationships due to her commitment to the Sisterhood's higher calling.
  • Introduction to C and Oak: The chapter transitions to the vibrant and chaotic Ceanoke (C and Oak) ceremony in the Great Square of Keen, highlighting its significance and mystery.

• Notable Quotes:

  "If Shiana fails, there's still uses for her, but still there's this hope that she'll be what they hope she's going to be."
  — Leo [17:23]

  "Love is an emotion that is denied to her. And it becomes explicitly clear in this chapter that she's bitter about this."
  — Abu [20:37]

2. In-Depth Takeaways

C and Oak Ceremony Analysis

One of the episode's focal points is the "C and Oak" ceremony, a ritual steeped in Arrakeen's rich cultural and historical tapestry. Abu and Leo dissect its evolution and current manifestation, drawing parallels to earlier Dune lore.

• Cultural Evolution: Originally a dance of ecstasy and reverence, the ceremony has transformed into a violent mosh pit, reflecting societal and cultural shifts over millennia.

• Symbolism and Language: The ritual embodies a subconscious language comprising voice tones, movements, and pheromones, allowing participants like Shiana to communicate deeply ingrained truths.

• Bene Gesserit Mysteries: The Sisterhood struggles to comprehend the ritual despite extensive studies and holophoto records, highlighting the limitations of recorded history in capturing lived experiences.

• Notable Quotes:

  "The dancers spoke it. Shiana spoke it. The thing was composed of voice tones and movements and pheromones, a complex and subtle combination that had evolved the way all languages evolved out of necessity."
  — Abu [56:40]

  "Odrade thought of herself now as an archaeologist… focusing on the ways people carried their past within them."
  — Leo [62:27]

Character Dynamics and Development

• Taraza's Mastery: Taraza demonstrates exceptional skill in negotiating and strategizing, reinforcing her role as a formidable Bene Gesserit leader.

• Duncan Idaho's Transformation: The discussion touches upon Duncan's potential evolution into a truthsayer, examining how this could alter his inherent loyalty and trust within House Atreides.

• Teg's Mentat Prowess: Teg's strategic thinking and his role as a protector unveil layers of his character, emphasizing his importance in the unfolding narrative.

• Notable Quotes:

  "His loyalty would be much more contingent on if you're being truthful and transparent with him."
  — Leo [28:19]

  "Duncan's loyalty is part of who he is, but he doesn't know when Leto is telling him the truth or lying to him."
  — Abu [28:09]

3. Spice Morsel: The Sligs

In the "Spice Morsel" segment, Abu and Leo shift focus to the Tleilaxu's creation—Sligs. These creatures, a blend of slugs and pigs, serve as both a bartering item and a symbol of the Tleilaxu's repugnant image.

• Description: Sligs are depicted as multi-mouthed, slimy creatures that process waste with unpleasant excrement. Despite their grotesque appearance, they are considered a delicacy, marketed as "the sweetest meat this side of heaven."

• Tleilaxu Strategy: The Tleilaxu cultivate an image of obscenity to mask their intricate plans and manipulative strategies, ensuring that their true intentions remain concealed beneath layers of repugnance.

• Cultural Commentary: The discussion reflects on Frank Herbert's tendency to critique the degradation of rituals and traditions, paralleling the evolution of the C and Oak ceremony with the devolvement of cultural practices.

• Notable Quotes:

  "The Benny Tleilax made them added to the aura of obscenity around a creature whose multi mouths ground incessantly on almost any garbage..."
  — Leo [70:05]

  "Taraza wonders at this, looking at Waf: 'For what possible reason might people build around themselves a mask of obscenity?'"
  — Abu [72:23]

4. Closing Remarks

Abu and Leo conclude the episode by teasing the next Book Club session, encouraging listeners to continue their journey through Heretics of Dune. They also invite audience participation, urging listeners to share their theories and insights on the complex rituals and character developments discussed.

• Listener Engagement: The hosts express a keen interest in audience theories, especially regarding the enigmatic C and Oak ceremony and its broader implications within the Dune saga.

• Teaser for Next Episode: The upcoming Book Club session will cover chapters 22, 23, and 24, promising further exploration into the novel's unfolding mysteries.

• Notable Quotes:

  "There’s so much to unpack in this scene, and there are certainly things that we missed or didn’t have time to get into today."
  — Abu [67:47]

  "We are not done with books. Right."
  — Leo [69:10]

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5. Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, Abu and Leo intersperse personal anecdotes and humorous banter, providing a relatable and engaging listening experience. Their dynamic interaction not only breaks the complexity of Heretics of Dune but also highlights their deep passion and understanding of the Dune universe.

• Humorous Interludes: The hosts joke about real-world products like Shutterfly and LifeLock, and share light-hearted stories about mosh pits and concerts, adding levity to the dense lore discussions.
• Passion for Dune: Their enthusiasm is evident as they delve into character motivations, cultural rituals, and the intricate political maneuvers that define Heretics of Dune.

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Conclusion

This episode of Gom Jabbar's Heretics of Dune Book Club offers a comprehensive and insightful analysis of pivotal chapters within the novel. Abu and Leo adeptly navigate the complex narrative, unpacking the layers of political intrigue, cultural evolution, and character development that Frank Herbert meticulously crafted. Notable quotes and timestamped insights enrich the discussion, making it accessible and engaging for both seasoned Dune fans and newcomers alike.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the hosts, contributing their own interpretations and theories as the journey through Heretics of Dune continues in future episodes.

Transcript

[Abu]

We would want first selection of episode topics.

[Leo]

No.

[Abu]

Alternate first selection then.

[Leo]

Perhaps.

[Abu]

What do you mean perhaps?

[Leo]

What else would you ask of us?

[Abu]

Our patrons must have unfettered access to your extra perks and benefits.

[Leo]

Are you mad?

[Abu]

Then we will accept a first edition signed copy of Dune. Well, I had to try.

[Leo]

I suppose you did.

[Abu]

Does that signed copy exist?

[Leo]

Because probably. It's probably super expensive.

[Abu]

I'm trying to get my hands on it.

[Leo]

Calling an audible. Let's see. Ebay, Signed copy of Dune, first edition. Oh, shit. Dune, first printing, first edition, original dust jacket, $22,500.

[Abu]

Okay, $22,000 is the new goal.

[Leo]

So we're going to have a patron tier. That's 22,000amonth.

[Abu]

Yes, a new patron tier. We just need one person to do it. One time. Foreign. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we are back once again for another book club episode.

[Leo]

I'm so excited. And today's good. Today's chapters, I mean, it's always good, it's always fun, it's always well written, but today's chapters were a ride.

[Abu]

Yeah, you think so? I was kind of bored by today's chapters.

[Leo]

What?

[Abu]

Yeah, we can get in. We'll get into it. But this was a slow section of the book for me. Interesting highlights, for sure, that we're going to talk about at length today. But in general, a lot of. I feel like nothing happened. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. We got to take care of some housekeeping. Yeah, starting with the spoiler warning. As usual, folks, these book club episodes contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far. So as long as you've kept up with the reading and kept up with the episodes, you are good to listen today.

[Leo]

Indeed you are. And of course, as always, a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Caballo, Jonathan Lambert, and C.R. spruill. Folks, if we were escaping, all of us together, the keep. And we knew Shuang Yu was going to come after you. Abu and I, we would stay behind and we'd. We'd sacrifice our lives for you. Because your generosity is so great and we appreciate it so much. We could not do Gom Jabbar without you. So thank you. And that thank you, of course, extends to all of our patrons. Your monthly support seriously makes this show possible to continue doing so. Thank you.

[Abu]

Thank you so much. All right, with the housekeeping out of the way, y'all know the game plan for these book club episodes. We will begin today with a summary of the reading. Then we'll dive into a meaty takeaway. And finally, we will wash that takeaway down with a bit of dessert with a spice morsel.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So before we get into today's reading, let's take a quick breather. Let's put on our dancing shoes.

[Leo]

Uh huh.

[Abu]

We'll be back with the chapter summaries in just a minute.

[Leo]

Birthdays, anniversaries, weddings, Whatever the occasion, it just got a little more personal with meaningful photo gifts from Shutterfly. Add a silly photo to a gold rimmed mug for your bestie, Put your sweet puppy on a cozy fleece blanket. For your teen, gift your husband a desktop plaque featuring all the kids. Enjoy. 40% off orders over $29 with code [e-mail] and make something that means something. I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and R Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.

[Abu]

Nope.

[Leo]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game. Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return. It's better with block. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you got your dancing shoes on. Let's get started. And chapter 19 today, our first chapter today drops us into the room with two of the most significant people in the universe. Mother Superior Taraza and Master of Masters Tillwith. Waf.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. To be a fly on the wall. And, folks, we are. We are all flies on these walls. They are meeting as a result of Odrade's you will pay message.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And this meeting is tense. It's. It is.

[Abu]

To say the least.

[Leo]

It is very tense. As a quick note, I really found it to be a fascinating comparison to. We saw Waff meet with the honored matre earlier in the book. Fascinating point of comparison to see the different way that these meetings play out.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

Like, Taraza keeps him on his back heel the whole time. She's kind of got the advantage. She's running circles around him being very intentional. Whereas Waf straight up assassinated the honored matre when he was tired of the Interact. Like. So it's very interesting to see maybe the differences in how these meetings played out.

[Abu]

Definitely.

[Leo]

Now their discussion is broadly a battle of information. Both parties, WAF and Taraza, are pretending to know less and more than they actually do. There's bluffing, plans within plans, speaking three levels of subtext Deep. And Taraza's perspective includes these incredible. I loved these little flashbacks to the Bene Gesserit analysts who basically were doing their best to try to predict what WAF would do, even though they have, like, no solid, dependable data on the Benny Twilights.

[Abu]

Yeah. I loved the moment where she was like, he's going with scenario three. Excellent. Let me go down path four, five and seven. You know, she's just playing like a choose your own adventure game.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

In her head. Based on the strategy that the analysts back at Chapter House built for her. It's a fun insight into how the Bene Gesserit operate in a situation like this.

[Leo]

And it's incredible to see how successfully they basically charted out everything. He could say, oh, yeah. Even though they had this, like, very incomplete picture of the Benny Twilights and their motivations.

[Abu]

Right, Definitely.

[Leo]

Meanwhile, waf, super frustrated the whole time, just so mad, because, as always, the Bene Gesserit seemed to have fucking eyes everywhere. And multiple times he considers using his hidden dart throwers.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

To literally kill her because she clearly knows too much.

[Abu]

Yeah. Starting to come off like a one trick pony. Waff, come up with something new, buddy.

[Leo]

That's how he solves all minor inconveniences. He's just like, dart throwers. He's on his way to work. There's, like, traffic. He's like, maybe I should use my dart throwers.

[Abu]

Right. My Domino's Pizza arrived 30 minutes late.

[Leo]

He burns the. He. He's like, well, Domino's is unreliable. I'm gonna do DiGiorno. He burns the pizza. He's like, how can I use my dart throwers to unburn this piz? Yeah. But joking aside, he's on his back foot. He's on the back foot this entire meeting. Yes, again. That's why he's considering this. Falling back on violence, because he's like, well, I'm not winning the battle of information.

[Abu]

Yeah, definitely.

[Leo]

Nevertheless, they are here to bargain. The Playlax are going, what do you mean, we will pay? We didn't do nothing. We're innocent. We've never done anything bad ever in our lives. We are the sweet little.

[Abu]

Look at Me, I'm just a baby.

[Leo]

I'm just a baby. Just a little baby. So Taraza has to, like, basically bluff to get him to drop the act.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And she pulls the.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

She pulls these off spectacularly. First, she's like, I know you met with the Honored Matre. He's like, what?

[Abu]

I'm just a baby.

[Leo]

I'm just a baby? I don't think that's working anymore. She claims. And this I thought was fucking crazy. She's like, you know the ship you met the Honored Matreya? We captured it, we got it, and we interrogated your face dancers. And they didn't die fast enough. We got information out of them. And he's like, oh, I'm not just a baby anymore. I think she knows I'm not a baby.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And of course, she insinuates she knows the Benny Tleilax have face dancers among the Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And she goes, I don't think they're gonna like to know that you betrayed them that way.

[Abu]

Right. Wouldn't it be awful if someone were to tip them off?

[Leo]

Wouldn't it be just the. Wouldn't it. She's such a mob boss. She's like, no. Sure would be inconvenient for at least one of us here if the Honored Matre were told about someone's little. He's like, ah, shit. Yeah. I guess I gotta go along.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So she's offering kind of the Bene Gesserit silence. They're not gonna tip the Honored Matres off. But in exchange, WoF has to tell them everything they know about the Honored Matre.

[Abu]

Oh, just that.

[Leo]

Just that. That's fine. Now, in this bargaining Waff's pride and sort of his Tleilaxu. We know there are very proud people.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Makes him slip up multiple times when we get this moment, quote. Waff shuddered. Much had been confirmed by killing the Honored Matre. The sexual intricacies only the strongest psyche could resist. Entanglement in such ecstasies. The potential of this tool was enormous. Must that be shared with these witches? The potential of this tool was enormous. That's a sentence you could take out of context. Am I right, Waff? Up top. Up top. He's leaving me hanging. Okay. Well, for all of his pouting, Waff is smart enough to recognize that he is backed into a corner. He doesn't really have any leverage in this conversation. So he agrees to share the intel about the Honored Matre. But they're going to keep to themselves the secret Sexual powers that they've kind of discovered.

[Abu]

It's too great a tool, too powerful a tool.

[Leo]

It's enormous. This tool. This tool is huge, throbbing. It's a girthy tool. But Taraza's got even more incredible tricks up her sleeve beyond these bluffs. And the chapter ends on an exchange that echoes the Jessica shout out scene from the very first book, where Taraza starting to get a sense that the Benny Tlevax might have Zensuni beliefs.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Actually, just like straight up parrots. Some Zen Sunni philosophy, kind of Sufi phrases that really shake and shock. Waf.

[Abu]

Oh yeah.

[Leo]

Who this whole time has been like, she's a poenda. We can't give her information, we can't cooperate. She's disgusting, she's dirty. And then she starts speaking the language of the effectively what Waff would understand as the language of his religion, their secret religion. And he's like, wait a fucking second. What does that mean?

[Abu]

Right, Fellow believer.

[Leo]

Question mark, Fellow. That's not. I'm just a baby. Are you a baby? Are you also a baby? Are you just a baby? Teraza's like, I'm just a baby. I'm just a baby too.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

That's such a stupid idea.

[Abu]

Precisely. What's happening in this scene.

[Leo]

Yeah, literally. Thank you for. You're welcome. For this interpretation, this deep analytical interpretation of Dune. So Wa finds himself doubting, confused by Taraza's knowledge. Quote. Waff studied her face, trying to read in that Bene Gesserit mask some confirmation of the things implied by her words and manner. She was Pohenda, he reminded himself. The Poinda could never be trusted. But if she shared the great belief. End quote. Doubt, doubts. Doubts are worming their way in. It's. It kind of reminds me also of Leto to just doing enough to make Siona doubtful of his monstrosity. Right?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Terasa kind of leaves it there like Leto too. And Siona, you don't need to checkmate in this moment. So she gets him to doubt. And then she's like, okay, now that you're doubting, see you in Arrakis, big boy. And he's like, okay, okay, I'll see you there. I guess she might also be a little baby. So Taraza, at the end of this chapter, walks away with basically everything they wanted.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

As well as with a strong upper hand against the Tleilaxu. This whole scene has been a clear victory for the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And another demonstration we've seen already many times in this Book how effective a Reverend Mother Superior Taraza is at teaching lessons and planting seeds and kind of getting people to where they need to be to be their kind of best self for the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

We see here she can also hold her own in the highest stake meeting you can possibly imagine. Very, very cool.

[Abu]

It's very cool. A very fun chapter.

[Leo]

That's what I'm saying. I feel like at the end of each of these, I'm going to win you over. Abu. Yeah, the end of this chapter.

[Abu]

Summarize this one. I liked the negotiation was juicy. I loved it.

[Leo]

I think by the end, you're going to be like, wait, all three of those chapters were really fun.

[Abu]

Okay. In the words of one Anakin Skywalker, you will try. All right.

[Leo]

And the women and the children.

[Abu]

All of them.

[Leo]

All of them like animals.

[Abu]

All right. Chapter 20. A large portion of this chapter takes place inside Odrade's head.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

As she's basically looking out the window of her dwelling, waiting for Shiana to arrive, she's looking down specifically on the great square of Keen. Now, as she thinks about how she will train Shiana in the Bene Gesserit ways, Odrade's mind wanders back to her own childhood and her own training within the Bene Gesserit. She thinks back to, for example, that first level of training that the youngest of acolytes coming into the school are taught and how even at this very first stage, it's extremely grueling and many wash out. Some of her companions failed at this stage. They left to become nurses, servants, laborers, casual breeders. They filled niches of necessity wherever the sisterhood required them. End quote.

[Leo]

I love this for what it is about Odrade's, like, life and what it means for the possibilities of Shiana. Like, if Shiana fails, there's still uses for her, but still there's this hope that she'll be what they hope she's going to be. Basically, yeah. But I also find it really interesting because in that one, like, I guess two sentences, we get a glimpse into, like, the 90% of Bene Gesserit who fail to become Reverend Mothers, right? Like, we got questions recently about man. Do they just have, like, is everyone a fucking Reverend Mother these days? And it's like, no, it's still the top 1%. Like, it's still the most capable of the most capable. But what about all the other people? What a great question. Here's the answer.

[Abu]

This is what happens to them.

[Leo]

You have servants, you have nurses, laborers, we know there are teachers, we know there are different levels of that. And then casual breeders. Yeah, sure. You always need to have people just keeping the bloodlines alive. Doesn't need to be the crazy high stakes. We need to get Fade Rautha's genetic material.

[Abu]

Right. Capturing the secondary, even tertiary genetic material. You know, backups and backups and backups.

[Leo]

Yeah, I imagine low stakes stuff. Imagine you have people just like, like tag. Just like a planet where you're like, hey, we just need that genetic line for, you know, a few hundred years. So just chill, just chill on that planet. You're good. Go hang out there. You know, we'll hook you up with someone. It's so fascinating to look at this because we spend so much time with the elite of the elite. It's fun to see that kind of. I don't know what is probably statistically the majority of the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Totally. Totally. You have to remember, the Bene Gesserit is a very large institution that requires just everyday people doing everyday tasks as well. We spend 99% of our time with people like Odrade and Taraza. But that's like saying the President and the Secretary of State are representative of the entire U.S. government. Yeah, you know, it's just. That's just not true. 90% of people are just the nurses, servants, laborers, casual breeders, et cetera. Okay, continuing with the summary here, we're still inside Odrade's head. She's thinking back to this childhood training. And we learned that she obviously graduated past the early stages of training. She progressed quickly and was given more and more sensitive responsibilities as it became clear how talented she was. But we also learn just how much Odrade worked for all of this. There was a joke in Chapter House. Where does Odrade go when she's off duty? She goes to work. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so funny.

[Abu]

I loved that. And a nice little character moment for Odrade. It tells us the type of person she is.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now Odrade's wool gathering here returns and cycles back to the topic of love, as it seemingly often does for her. Love is an emotion that is denied to her. And it becomes explicitly clear in this chapter that she's bitter about this. She is jealous of sisters like Tank's mother or even Jessica, who were allowed to live out these lives still in service to the Bene Gesserit, but alongside breeding partners, loving partners and families that they got to create.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Something that is denied to Odrade because of her role, because of her Certain skills.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

The sisterhood needs her for a higher calling. And Odrade here in her thoughts, has to remind herself of that a little bit.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, the rest of this chapter is, frankly, this, like, wild scene of C and Oak down in the Great Square as these very tall.

[Leo]

The tallest of the tall NBA players. All of them.

[Abu]

NBA. Yeah. No one under six, five. They all work in finance.

[Leo]

The staffs. The. The staffs they're holding are six, five, six, six.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the staffs come to their shoulders for the shortest one.

[Abu]

Huge.

[Leo]

So I'm like, these people are all 7ft tall. This is crazy. Why are they so tall?

[Abu]

So tall. These tall priest guardians are escorting Shiana through the square while C and Oak is happening all around them to Odrade's living quarters. And frankly, there is just so much to pick apart here and so much to say about this that we're not even gonna bother hearing the summary. We're gonna save this for the takeaway later in the episode. So hang tight.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

All we'll say for now is that the chapter ends by Shiana arriving in oh. Drade's quarters. And she's feeling exhilarated by the Sea and Oak ceremony that happened out in the Great Square. But she is safe.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Odrade is thankful for that.

[Leo]

And naturally, we didn't talk about why that chapter was really cool because we're going to get to it in our takeaways. But the whole, like, sea and oak mystery and unraveling that. I'm like, what a ride? Like, that was a fun. We learn about a Drade. We get to see how special a Draid is.

[Abu]

Mm.

[Leo]

I think that's the second great chapter. But that's just me. That's just me. Okay. It's just me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good to confirm. All right. I failed my plan. It's okay. Our final chapter.

[Abu]

I mean, there's a lot to pick apart there. It's really this last one where it's just like Tag fucking walking for nine hours.

[Leo]

Oh, it's cool. Okay. It's fine. We'll talk about it. Our final chapter today is just tag fucking walking, I guess. Okay, thanks for. We summarize the chapter at the end. No. So we join Tag, Lucilla, and Duncan as they are making their way through the pitch black. They are traveling at night in the kind of heavy forest surrounding the Keep to an invisible secret that Tag and Patrin had kept. A Harkonnen no glow. Whoa. Crazy. So they've been walking for four nights. When we join them, following Patrin's path. And this is something that, of course, Teg has memorized as a mentat. It's very easy for him. And as they travel, Tag is nearly overcome with emotion as he acknowledges that Patrin is almost certainly dead. And rest in peace, Pat. We barely knew you, but you were a cool character.

[Abu]

Indeed.

[Leo]

Now, Shuang Yu has people searching for this little party who have escaped. Presumably, she found out that the. Maybe the Tleilax who didn't blow up her apartment, and it was just Teg who, like, hilariously blew up all of her shit. She has people out searching for them, and multiple times this little party has to cover up with a life shield, which blocks them from aerial observers and the entire flight. This entire escape plan is a game of 5D chess. Right. Bluffs, decoys, mind games. What we think she's going to do, what she thinks they're going to do, and what we think she thinks we're going to do. That whole thing.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

All wrapped up in this nighttime hike. Now, Duncan, on this hike is quiet. He, you know, he's not really questioning too much. He's kind of just going along with everything. He is aware that his life is in the hands of Teg's plan. And we even get some moments in his head where he looking at Teg is like, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I can trust this man.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Which is notable because he does not think the same thing about Lucilla.

[Abu]

Correct. Yep.

[Leo]

Even though we know she has successfully imprinted upon him a motherly love. So he does love her. He does not trust her as unerringly as he trusts Tech.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Now, regarding Lucilla, he has realized that Lucilla is supposed to make him love her and has succeeded to some degree. But he knows that she is sort of manipulative in this way. And we're told that this whole having to, like, run and shuang you searching for them and the timing of all this has really fucked up Lucilla's carefully laid plans.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And although she is attempting to reorient herself at this moment, kind of trying to figure out, okay, how am I going to do this? It is very clear that his awareness of her intentions, at least to make him love her, is an upsetting setback.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah. It throws a wrench into the whole plan.

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah.

[Abu]

The Gola is not supposed to know that I'm imprinting him.

[Leo]

It's like mentat training. Right. You're kind of supposed to get through it without ever really knowing it's happening.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, this also highlights an interesting possibility that Teg considers, quote, was the ghola a latent truthsayer?

[Abu]

What.

[Leo]

What additional powers had been bred into this ghola by the sly Trilaxu? End quote.

[Abu]

Sneaky.

[Leo]

Sneaky. And undetected by the Bene Gesserit, which adds additional layers of confusion to all of this. But also, this is a thought that I had, and I almost proposed this as, like, a full takeaway. But one of the things that is defining for Duncan as a character is his loyalty. He is a loyal servant of House Atreides. Nevertheless, we see multiple times the various gholas Duncan Golas come to a breaking point with House Atreides given certain circumstances. And mostly we see this with God Emperor Leto, right? We see multiple Duncans get to the point of literally attempting to assassinate a member of House Atreides through a sort of internal negotiation of, what does it mean to be House Atreides? What is loyalty and trust if you know when people are deceiving you? There is an element here where Duncan is a loyal character, but he doesn't know when Leto, too, is telling him the truth or lying to him. And there are moments in God Emperor where we see Duncan go, I think he's full of shit. I don't think he believes what he's saying. Every previous Duncan we've ever seen has had to trust based on their instincts and their knowledge. And they're like, what information do I have? And, you know, how do I calibrate that internal barometer? So even when Leto, too, is telling him the truth about the Golden Path or telling him, hey, this is what has to happen, he doesn't believe him or he refused to believe him. So how much of Duncan's core traits would change or how much would his behavior patterns change if he could go into every interpersonal interaction knowing people's truthfulness? It's a really interesting. Again, I really found myself questioning, like, what does it mean to be loyal? Like, what is loyalty if not a demonstration of trust, even when you're given incomplete information?

[Abu]

Yeah. So are you positing that Duncan would potentially be a less loyal servant of House Atreides if he was able to truth, say his way through every interaction?

[Leo]

I think his loyalty. I think he still would be a. I think his loyalty is part of who he is, but I think that his loyalty would be much more contingent on if you're being truthful and. And transparent with him, because he would immediately have that sense baked into himself. And so I think that, like I'm saying, I think the past Duncans would have behaved differently were they truthsayers. Which is also to say, I think this idea of this Duncan might be a truthsayer could prime us to expect the unexpected from this person who is a character that we've known since the first book. But perhaps this is a whole new type of Duncan if he can tell when people are lying to him.

[Abu]

That's a great point. I mean, this is not the Gola that we once knew. It's not even a Gola that the God Emperor knew. And it's certainly not the Duncan Idaho that we met all the way back in the first Dune book.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And I think you're onto something like, this ghola is so dramatically different and potentially has been tampered with so many times over the thousands of years of reincarnation that we might as well practically be talking about a different human being altogether. It's the ship of Theseus. Right. How many times can you take Duncan apart and put him back together before he's no longer just Duncan and it's just a totally different creation? Yeah, it's interesting, and I think that will be fun to keep in mind the rest of the book.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like, if Duncan's memories are awakened, as we know Tag plans to do at the end of this chapter, you know, he. He knows he's got to quickly awaken those memories. Are we going to awaken the same Duncan we've always known in the past five books?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

It's a. It's a fun question to ponder.

[Leo]

Yeah. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. And actually, speaking of Teg's plans, going back to this summary, Duncan actually overhears Teg's plans said very clumsily by Lucilla.

[Abu]

Yep. She's off her game in this chapter.

[Leo]

I'm wondering if that's kind of a gambit within itself. Like, she needs him to also know that Teg has his ulterior plans. And. And, you know, oh, like, she's like, this is her going, well, Tag. Hey, Tag, don't you have to betray Duncan at some point?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Tag's like, oh, my God, this Benny Jazzeritis really being clumsy here. But realistically, what maybe she's doing by leaking tags orders is attempting to show Duncan I'm not the only one with plans within plans. So you can. You can still love me.

[Abu]

And that's a great read on it. I hadn't considered that at all, maybe.

[Leo]

Because otherwise, it's just like, oh, my God, Learn to whisper. Learn to fucking whisper. Lucilla, she's. She's your friend who goes, look at that person's dumb shirt. And the person turns and fully looks at her. And you're like, say it quieter. What are you doing?

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

So while Duncan doesn't fully understand what it means to have his memories restored, we get this. His interpretation of this revelation is, quote, duncan was not sure what he would know, but now he fully accepted the prize in it, end quote. So he's not sure what these original memories are. Maybe they're terrible. Maybe this is really a punishment. Maybe this is being descended into a hell of who he used to be, but he is treating it like, no, this is a prize. This is what I want to know.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So the chapter ends as they arrive at their destination, and Tag also realizes he comes to a mentat conclusion. He has to delay Lucilla in her sexual imprinting of Duncan and awaken Duncan before she has a chance to do what she's supposed to do.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

You know, he says, every mentat projection, for Duncan's safety and most importantly, his sanity, requires that this happen, which I thought was really touching. It's like, I need to keep him safe to follow my orders, but I also need to keep him mentally intact. And if he gets sexually imprinted before I awaken his memories, that is going to tear him apart in a way that like. Or something like that.

[Abu]

Right, right. And what's kind of confusing here is, was this part of Taraza's plan? Because she has also ordered Lucilla here to sexually imprint the Gola, like, asap. Asap. You know, this is like a tier one command from Taraza to Lucilla.

[Leo]

High priority. Yeah.

[Abu]

And then at the same time, she has commanded Tag here to protect the ghola at all costs.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Tag's summation, mentat summation, is, in order to protect the Gola at all costs, I have to stop Lucilla from sexually imprinting. You know, has she set these opposing forces against each other on purpose, or is this a new development, is what I'm left wondering after this chapter?

[Leo]

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I know that. Well. So first, very clearly, to be clear, he is okay with Lucilla sexually imprinting Duncan, but it has to happen after Duncan is awakened. So the thing that is important is just the order. He's like, this order has to be this way, if not Duncan's sanity, blah, blah, blah. So, first, I don't see him as exactly opposed to Lucilla. He is for sure right now, but Once he's awoken Duncan's memories, I think at that point he's like, yeah, I can help her get alone time with him. You know, he'll do the, like, wingman thing where he's like, well, I'm going to go take a really long nap with the noise canceling, headphones on, and I'm going to close the door. I'm going to be out in the living room. I could take a nap on the bed, but I'll leave the bed open for anybody who wants it, you know?

[Abu]

Oh, is that the Notebook starring Ryan Gosling playing on tv? I'll just leave it on. Should I?

[Leo]

I'll just leave it, you know, on the way out. These scented candles, we're never going to use them, right? Let's light them up. We'll light those up.

[Abu]

And I found these chocolates in the no room fridge. Are you. Either of you.

[Leo]

You both like. You both like chocolates. What are the chances? You have so much in common. I'm going to leave these here.

[Abu]

Strawberries. What else is an aphrodisiac? Jesus.

[Leo]

Shellfish. I hear shellfish. Look at that. Just a fridge full of shellfish. That's exciting.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh, the odds.

[Leo]

Yeah. And the sexiest music I can think of. Kissed by a Rose by Seal.

[Abu]

No, Brett. The album.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. But, yeah. So. So to be clear, I think he is fine with all of that happening. That's fine. But he needs to awaken Duncan first. The second thing that comes to mind is his internal monologue as they're going through the forest. Is realizing that Taraza was priming him through not only the lighter trip from the ship down to the keep, but also in the. In the past, she has been priming him to think about things his own way and to find his own solutions for things to be heretical.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So the fact that.

[Abu]

And not just logical solutions. Many times in this chapter, he's like, logic fails, Logic has failed. Logic can't be relied on. Instinctual solutions. Go with your gut, Miles. Tag.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

Do what you've always done in a high pressure situation. Trust your gut.

[Leo]

Huge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, great point. So I think it's like, you're right that it does seem conflicting for Terraza to say, hey, Lucilla. Asap. All right, cool. Thanks, babe. Hey, Tag. Don't let her do it. But I think the reality is, it's like, hey, Tag, you do you king. And it'll all work out, because I know that you are in the trenches, you are on the battlefield. You are the Bashar we've bred you to be. And now it's time for you to do you. Because you're going to get us to where we need to be.

[Abu]

Totally good point.

[Leo]

And those are our summaries today. And I would say this chapter was also really cool. I like the. Still not sold. Okay, well, it's still just me, but I like the plans within plans. I like that they end up at where he had led Shuang Yu to career. That's super cool. I like Duncan figuring shit out and then kind of like having to choose his path through all of this. I like Teg continuing to be this sort of mastermind, but starting to kind of own his independence. Like, I don't know what you want from me, Taraza. I guess I just have to follow my gut. Like, there are all these fun little character moments that are happening in this chapter, and. Yeah, very excited. Very excited to see where it's going. And all of this takes us to a Harkonnen. No. Globe. Are you kidding me?

[Abu]

That's what I can't wait to see. I guess there's just a lot of setup for me. You know, it's a lot of walking and being sad about Patryn dying for, like, nine pages straight and just setting up, getting to the glow globe, which is clearly the most interesting part. So a lot of these chapters felt like setup to me. Right. Sea and Oak, as interesting as it is, is just Shiana walking to a trade, plot wise.

[Leo]

That's fair.

[Abu]

And the negotiations, which I loved, frankly, you know, like a really great chapter, always juicy. When Frank has two people sitting in a room playing verbal jiu jitsu like that.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Still mostly set up because it's just setting up Waf, getting to Arrakis. Like, a lot of chess board pieces are moving in these three chapters, but not as sort of blood pumping and exhilarating as the last few have been.

[Leo]

That's fair. That's a fair point. Well, those are our chapter summaries, so we're going to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere, dear listener, because when we're back, we want to talk about C and Oak and all of its fun, dense details. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places, between payroll, your tax consultant, and the IRS. If your W2 gets exposed, that's just the ticket for identity thieves.

[Abu]

That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second.

[Leo]

If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks.

[Leo]

Hmm.

[Abu]

Let's get into our double sized takeaway today. Yeah, we gotta talk about this Sihanouk scene from chapter 20.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So in our reading, Odrade in that scene, is captivated by her first observation in person of this mysterious ritual that we are told is Sian Oak. Clearly, it has become a far cry from what it once was under Leto ii. Sea and Oak was a dramatically different ritual thousands of years ago, and that.

[Leo]

Was specifically the like. Basically, Leto renewing his vows for all of his fish speakers. And, you know, The Knife of Muad'Dib. The Chris Knife of Muad'Dib. Right.

[Abu]

Muadib's Glock.

[Leo]

His Glock. His piece. Yeah. And this huge power. And then graduating the sisters. Right, so that whole scene, a turning.

[Abu]

Over of the guard.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, we've seen it before. All that. In a word, Lord. That's Sihanouk.

[Abu]

That's Sihanouk. But this is also Sihanouk.

[Leo]

This is also. But it's different.

[Abu]

It's very different.

[Leo]

And it's also called a bunch of things, but. Oh. Draid points out that the most poignant description of it is still Sihanouk. People still call it Sihanouk.

[Abu]

Yes, definitely. So let's break down the ritual a little bit. There's a lot of little details sprinkled throughout this scene. So the first detail we're given is that there are dancers at the center of this ritual, which is kind of a hallmark of Arrakeen. We've seen this before in the Dune saga. We also know that Shiana's parents have been to Kyn in the past many times for trade and to join in the dancing. End quote.

[Leo]

Mm. Yeah.

[Abu]

And dancing came up even earlier in this book with Syanna herself. It was her instinct, when faced with death, to dance.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that potentially saved her life doing so.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

If you'll recall, even earlier in the Dune saga, in Children of Dune, there were sand dancers. There was a scene, quote, sand dancers had come into the plaza at the foot of the steps, half a hundred of them tethered to each other by a lack of ropes. They obviously had been dancing thus for days, seeking a state of ecstasy. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. That in particular, the idea that they. And some of them would, like, pass out mid dance and would be, like, held aloft by the other dancers really felt poignant to go back to, like, revisiting that scene.

[Abu]

Oh, totally.

[Leo]

Because Shiana, even when she dances for the two priests, she dances until she collapses from exhaustion and they try to throw her off and blah, blah, blah. But that moment of dancing until the point of exhaustion still feels like very much the same kind of through line.

[Abu]

Absolutely. I also had this same exact thought as soon as I read this scene. As soon as the dancers came in, I thought back to Children of Dune. I thought back to this idea that dancing is a central part of the culture in Arrakeen, the culture of Dune, Arrakis and the Fremen. And we see it here in this Ceanoke ritual as well. So a lot of imagery that dates back thousands of years for this culture and for these people.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah.

[Abu]

But of course, Sean Oak has evolved in many ways. In this version, the dancing takes a violent turn of a mosh pit situation. It becomes. Yeah, yeah, that's a great description, actually. It becomes like sort of a unrestrained mosh pit of emotion. We get this explanation in today's. There would be a chanting outcry and a great melee. Heads would be cracked, blood would flow, people would scream and run about. Eventually, it would all subside without official intervention. Some would go away weeping, some would depart laughing. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Sounds awful.

[Abu]

It's. Frankly, it sounds off. Are you a mosh pit person?

[Leo]

No. No.

[Abu]

Okay. Me neither.

[Leo]

Uncomfortable.

[Abu]

Same. Same.

[Leo]

By the way, I have friends in the, like, metal community, whatever. And there's, like, a lot of decorum and a lot of, like, ground rules.

[Abu]

Oh, really?

[Leo]

If someone gets, like, hit and falls, they'll be helped up immediately by the people around them. Like, there's a lot of.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

People look out for each other, but from the outside, it's like, no, I don't like this at all. Yeah, but that's the other thing is, like, you then don't go to those shows if you don't. If you're not okay getting, like, hit by someone random, and I'm like, I don't have. I have glasses. I don't want to go to a mosh. Totally terrible, man.

[Abu]

I'm practically blind without my glasses. That shit gets knocked off.

[Leo]

Then I'm fucking Velma. Like. Like Velma crawling around. Like.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

I can't see without my.

[Abu]

Anyway, yeah, okay. Glad we feel similarly about that. I went to a concert with a friend many years back, and there was an unexpected mosh pit. I didn't know what I was getting into.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And he was like, do you want a mosh bud? And I was like, I'll stand on the side. You go have fun.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. So exactly. That's about as much as. There's my boy.

[Abu]

Right. Exactly. There he is.

[Leo]

Oh.

[Abu]

Oh, don't trip. He's having fun. Good.

[Leo]

He's good. He's laughing.

[Abu]

Yeah. So that's a great way to. That's a great analogy to think of C and oak here in the. In the square. And as we've said, a lot of poignant imagery all throughout this scene.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The dancers, of course, but also the way in which they are dancing.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

They're dancing in what seems like this arrhythmic form that almost hearkens back to walking without rhythm in the deserts.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

To avoid shy hulud.

[Leo]

Yeah. There was this description of Shiana's dance, and I thought this was so interesting, where the two priests are seeing her dance and they acknowledge that she dances well. And one of the things that makes a good dance is that the rhythm, although it does exist, is separated by this huge number of steps. So it's like a hundred steps between each repeated pattern. And so you go, okay, well, dancing is rhythmic movement. But if you are a skilled dancer by hiding the rhythm, then we start to get this, like, sand walking is walking without rhythm. And it's that rhythm versus arithmetic. And it's. I don't know. All of that felt so valuable in this. In the context of this. This ceremony.

[Abu]

Yes. And especially when you think of in the context of Shai Hulud and worms and desert life. Because what are thumpers if not a steady beat, a steady rhythm that attracts Shai hulud. And so this dance really, again, is steeped in the culture and history of Arrakis, of the Fremen people, of the citizens of Arrakeen. And we can see how it has evolved and devolved and morphed into this sort of wild mosh pit ritual in the square.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's also. There's this push and pull with God. Right. The Fremen both worshiped Shai Hulud, but also gave him a wide birth when they didn't have to, like, deal with him directly. And it was this sort of, like, reverence for. But acknowledgement of the danger and the deadliness of God who might reclaim you for the desert. That's the thing.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And, you know. Oh. Jade thinks to herself that none of the priests thought it weird that they built moats around their cities to protect themselves from God. Like, don't come to the city. Don't inconvenience us with your presence. Lord.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And that feels very similar in a way. God is there. We worship him, but we want him at arm's length because he's dangerous.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And all of that. And then I also wonder at if Sihanouk, this dancing ritual, is a language that has evolved. We have the common people who are clapping and attempting to disrupt the language that speaks to and communicates with God. The people who attempt to stop that. The common people, not being speakers of the language, attempting to interfere. There's God. There's something there. We'll have to come back to it maybe when we understand a little bit better Shiana and her abilities.

[Abu]

But, yeah, I mean, the subtext of this chapter is deep.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it certainly requires multiple rereads to really unpack a lot of it. We're still only talking about the in universe context of C and Oak. We haven't even stepped out and talked about, like, what could this mean as far as meta commentary? You know, like, there's other layers to this as well.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, and also, remember, this is the book that starts with the Apocrypha. The first chapter was the Apocrypha, which is humans negotiating of what parts of God's language they want to take into consideration. Those words that God spoke are inconvenient.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So let's keep that out of the holy texts. Oh, there's so much. What's worth noting for now is how long this ceremony in universe has been confounding and haunting the Bene Gesserit. Because we're talking about this mysterious thing, but Odrade is unraveling it. We are watching her unravel this question, this issue, this ceremony. But she's doing that with this mystery that has been lingering for the Sisterhood for hundreds of years. So when the crowd starts literally just beating the shit out of the dancers, we get this quote. None of the dancers resisted. Were they being killed? Was it a sacrifice? The Sisterhood's analyses did not even begin to touch this actuality. So the Sisterhood's going, yeah. Then the fucking dancers get beat up and some of them die. We don't know, but they don't resist. We're really not sure. Like, this is. That's a whole question that we haven't answered.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And what kind of strikes me about this is while Arrakis is no longer the only source of spice. Right. In some ways, it has diminished in its value for the universe. This is not the focal point of the entire Dune universe because it's the only place you can get spice. This is still a hugely significant planet to the Bene Gesserit, to their plans. They've been waiting for someone like Shiana. It's time. She's arrived. Right. This is an important place. And this ritual is sitting what appears to be at the heart of Arrakeen of Kin and its people. So I have to imagine that this is quite a big question that the Bene Gesserit have tried to answer and continue to fail for hundreds of years.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But. But that's where it is. We know this to be true, and here we are. Yeah.

[Abu]

And how it got to be in the shape it is now? What's the through line? What's the dotted line we have to follow to get from fish speaker bride ceremony slash retirement party to mob violence in the square?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That's quite the transformation for a ritual like that. And I'm sure the Sisterhood has been wondering for a long, long time how we got here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And for Odrade to witness this firsthand is pretty amazing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And she even speaks on the fact that witnessing this event is dramatically different than just being told about it in her studies.

[Leo]

Yes. Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, absolutely none of the Sisterhood's accounts or holophoto records captured this thing. Part of it was the smells. Dust, sweat, an intense concentration of human pheromones. Oh. Jade took a deep breath. She felt herself trembling inside. End quote.

[Leo]

I thought, oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's amazing. That really harkens back to Frank Slash Leto's condemnation in God, Emperor of Dune, of historians and the inability of history, of written history, recorded history, to fully capture reality.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

As we humans experience it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it's really only by witnessing this event, by being there in person, by being able to smell the smells of sea and oak and the great Square of Keen, that Odrade is able to learn about this ritual.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's. It's that. The wordless truth, right?

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

That I think Queen Nari experiences with Leto and I think Chenua even had a moment of, like, wordless bonding with him and going. I don't know what that was, but that was reality.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Abu]

It also raises the question, what is the Sisterhood doing these days?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You're telling me O'Draid is the first person in hundreds of years to go watch. To go hang out in Arrakeen and watch C and oak.

[Leo]

We have pictures of it. It's fine. We have faster than light travel. That'll exist there in a heartbeat. Now we've got photos.

[Abu]

Sure. Yeah.

[Leo]

I Have pictures of the northern lights. I don't need to see them in person. It's fine.

[Abu]

Right? Oh, my gosh. That's so. That's so frustrating to hear because this is my dad's entire mentality on travel. My dad is very much like a first, you know, he's an immigrant, and so he is just, like, doesn't believe in vacations as a concept and would rather just, like, Google something and literally be like, oh, I googled the aurora borealis. Why the would I have to travel there to see it? I saw it already.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

And it's deeply frustrating because I love.

[Leo]

To travel, and it's very different to see it in person.

[Abu]

It's very different.

[Leo]

I saw the. I saw the totality, the full eclipse and cried. It brought me to tears.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And it's like, I had been told that that might happen, and I was told that it was very different to experience it. And good fucking Lord, it is so different. I have seen pictures, I've seen videos. It is.

[Abu]

We all have.

[Leo]

So different to be there. And I think that's. That's the sort of implicit lesson here that Odrade is experiencing. But, yeah, I second what you're saying here. What the fuck? Bene Gesserin. This is a huge question. I have to imagine this is a big, important question to answer. There's this ceremony that happens in one of the most important cities in the fucking universe, and you don't know what it means. And you're like, well, we've heard accounts and we've seen holophotos, and we still don't know. It's like, what?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

Hilarious. They have a lot on their plates.

[Leo]

Oh, I guess they do. Sure. Can't spare a fucking casual breeder to go there. Can't. Can't fucking spare one person. You got a whole sisterhood on the. You have a fucking sisterhood. People on the planet, they're not going outside. They're like, sandoe's happening outside. You want to step outside and see it? No, I'm good. It's hot outside.

[Abu]

I'll watch the live stream.

[Leo]

I'll look at the holo photo a second time. It's fine. Oh, my God. Anyway, back to our analysis. Fucking sisterhood. We do get this incredible passage. And I thought this was really just. This was the moment where I was like, okay, we have to talk about this as a takeaway quote. With a sudden outflowing awareness, which she had experienced before. Only during the spice agony, Odrade saw Through to the total pattern of what she had just witnessed in the great square. It had needed only Shiana's words and presence to make the thing clear. A language deep within the collective awareness of these people. They carried all unconsciously a language that could say things to them they did not want to hear. The dancers spoke it. Shiana spoke it. The thing was composed of voice tones and movements and pheromones, a complex and subtle combination that had evolved the way all languages evolved out of necessity. End quote. So I also think this is incredible because this kind of explains why the violence occurs. I'm realizing as well, it's the people who don't speak the language, who don't want to hear what the language is saying. Even if they don't understand it, they don't want to hear it. And that's where the violence comes out. It's the people saying the truth, demonstrating the truth in their gestures, and then the violence that shuts that up.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Really, really fascinating.

[Abu]

Right. The dancers speaking of the desert past of keen, the Fremen past, the connections to their history and culture that once was a rhythmic movement. Shai Hulud dance, Golden path, all this stuff. Yeah, Yep. Fish speakers, the God emperor, all of the things that are tied up in C and oak, these dancers represent. And then there is this, like, rejection of them and thus the violence, the outpouring of violence.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In somewhat of like a ritualistic manner. You know, I think everyone is, like, very clued in on what's happening. No one is surprised. Like, oh, shit, I didn't expect to get beat up.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Everyone including the priests. Right. Who just walk through it without acknowledging what's happening around them. Everyone knows this is how we operate here. This is how the ritual goes. And I think that there is a level of interest. Like, it's one thing for just violence to break out because of pent up xyz, you know, frustrations, anger, ignorance.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But it's another thing for that violence to be ritualized and sort of codified in a religion.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we're seeing that version, you know, the latter version of it. This is not a. Like a spurious moment of violence happening. This is something that happens regularly enough that everyone knows what part they're going to play.

[Leo]

Yeah. I also. I mean, there's. There's so much here. Like, I was just thinking about how Leto didn't resist the violence that led to his death. And the people who may have come away from Leto's death weeping. The people who may have come away from it. Laughing. Yeah, it's a very. It's all patterns. It's patterns that repeat themselves and it's patterns that are part of the Golden Path and everything. I also wanted to say if this language that Shiana speaks, apparently that is a subconscious thing that sits within her and the dancers involves tones of voice and, you know, these subtle pheromones and things like that that might also kind of explain how Shiana learned the voice on her own and learned how to, from a very early age, manipulate kind of tone of voice and things like that. Yeah, it's. And again, she's from this group of people that are so looked down upon by those in power, even though she is one of these dancers who speaks a language that taps into some very primordial things.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Oh, it's so cool.

[Abu]

It's so cool. It's so dense.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I mean, if we just take a brief moment here to step out of the context of Dune lore, just consider the subtext and like, potential commentary that's in this scene. Frank loves, for example, to show how rituals and traditions, particularly religious rituals and traditions, devolve over time. We saw the museum Fremen in God, Emperor of Dune, this shadow people of what once were the great Fremen. In Children of Dune. We saw the stillsuits as fashion accessories rather than the life or death stillsuits that the Fremen once used out in the desert. This like de evolution of a once sacred tradition. And it even goes further back than that because Paul himself was speaking on this idea all the way back into Messiah when thinking about his jihad quote. It was finite, of course, a brief spasm when measured against eternity. End quote. Frank has always posited in these books that nothing lasts forever, that change is inevitable. And embracing that change is the only way to move forward. To be entrenched in the status quo stagnation is dangerous, ultimately, to be entrenched in these rituals and traditions and not evolving and changing them. And I think, like, this idea of eternity can come off as somewhat fatalistic, nihilistic. Right? Well, nothing matters. None of this matters. Nothing has meaning in the face of eternity. Why bother with any of it, right?

[Leo]

I tried so hard.

[Abu]

I tried so hard. And in the end, I'm glad you.

[Leo]

Picked that up immediately. That's four years of podcasting together, baby.

[Abu]

I don't think that is the message that Frank has been saying in these dunes.

[Leo]

That was Linkin Park.

[Abu]

That was in fact Linkin Park. Different. Different. Equally prolific artist.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed.

[Abu]

I think Frank, his warnings in these Books have actually always been quite hopeful, tinged with just enough hope to make you believe there's a future. Because again, he wants humanity to embrace the new, the surprising, the unprecedented. In fact, the Golden Path is very much that. It is the path to humanity's survival by changing the status quo, shaking things up in a way that they've never been shaken.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

At the same time, I think abandoning history and abandoning all culture and tradition is also not what Franklin is trying to get at here, because that history is not useless.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Odrait, for example, in this very scene, observes how this ritual of sea and oak contains echoes of the past, even if the people don't realize it.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Quote. As she had often done, Odrade thought of herself now as an archaeologist, not one who sifted the dusty detritus of the ages, but rather a person who focused where the sisterhood frequently concentrated its awareness on the ways people carried their past within them. The tyrant's own design was apparent here. Shiana's approach was a thing laid down by the God Emperor himself. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. And it's true, by the way, that Sihanouk happened after the procession of the God Emperor into the festival city of Ohnn, which is where Arcane is.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Also a thought that occurred to me is in some ways for sure, the festival is devolved, where it's just like violence and killing and bloody and stuff. And this is not the ceremony with, you know, Muad'dib's Glock and the wives, the many wives and all that. But also, thinking about it, like Odrade points out, the dancers and Shiana speak this language. And Shiana says the dancers would also be safe against Shai Hulud.

[Abu]

Right, Right.

[Leo]

So those who speak this language are safe with the worms, worms 2.0 that carry the pearls of Leto's awareness.

[Abu]

Uh huh.

[Leo]

Which is to say, if we were to say, well, who's going to be safe with Leto ii? His fish speakers, his wives, Those who speak the dance, Those who dance the interpretive dance of Sihanouk are safe with the pearls of Leto ii. They are the wives of Leto ii. And so in some of these roles they've been recast and the way that the ceremony progresses changes. You know, the wives, the fish speakers, many of them were fought and killed on these faraway planets. And now it happens in the Great Square. But it's like. Yeah, it's patterns.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

And being aware of that's not a bad thing. No, but it's not the full picture either. And that's Also, why you can't say, hey, we've documented it. We're done.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Let's just go about how we're always going about. It's like, no, no, no. We need to avoid stagnation. And the pattern evolves because. Of course it does. Humanity evolves.

[Abu]

Absolutely. That's right. And all I gotta say here, Leo, is it's clear that the pearls of Leto 2's wisdom said that we can dance if we want to and that we can leave your friends behind because your friends don't dance.

[Leo]

No, they don't.

[Abu]

And if they don't dance.

[Leo]

Yeah. What do we do?

[Abu]

They are no Brides of Mine.

[Leo]

The famous Linkin park song. Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. God, that's so silly. Yeah.

[Abu]

Wow. If you leave this takeaway with nothing else. I hope that sticks.

[Leo]

Yeah. The front singer, frontman for Linkin Park, Frank Herbert, from Leto, too. All of this is fun. And let's just kind of wrap this summary up because at this point, it's sprawling.

[Abu]

Let's try to land the plane.

[Leo]

I think to summarize, Shiana, as she says, Shiana is safe with Shai Hulud and as well as the other dancers because of pheromones, because of movements, voice tones, things learned and performed unconsciously by the oppressed on Arrakis.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

This is a language born out of necessity, born in hard circumstances. Right. Amtal, all of this is present. And this is not to say that she is not special and she's just one of the dancers. The Bene Gesserit has still been waiting for Shiana, and Shanna is still this person who excites a trade. Oh, Draid's like, this is. She's really got something. And I'm excited to work with this. She has this wild talent, perhaps even a direct line back to the Atreides. She may simply have it closer to the surface than others, which might be how she maybe controls Shai Huloud. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Other dancers, we don't get a sense that everyone who dances can stop Shai Huludin his tracks. That does feel unprecedented. But perhaps it's all a byproduct of this quality of Sand Dancers in this current year.

[Abu]

Right, Right.

[Leo]

And we're not sure. I mean, again, the chapter doesn't end with a clear explanation of what we're, you know, what we're talking about or anything like that.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

All of this leads up to a drade, basically saying, I know now more of Taraza's design, not all of it. We still have to keep reading but she's on her way. She's on her way to understanding how everything's going to fit together.

[Abu]

That's right. And she knows how to trap the Tleilaxu. Oh, what a hook.

[Leo]

Just a plate.

[Abu]

I was like, God damn it. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Plate of cheese and a big stick in a cardboard box.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And they're just a babe.

[Abu]

They're just little baby rice. They like their cheese.

[Leo]

The cheese with the baby.

[Abu]

What a scene. What a dense takeaway. And frankly, this is just our thoughts and our analysis of it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But we'd love to hear yours as well, dear listener. There's so much to unpack in this scene, and there's certainly things that we missed or we didn't have time to get into today or dig deeper into.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we'd love to hear your theories about sea and oak and what it represents in the larger story of all of the Dune books and all of the big themes that Frank tackles, but also specifically in the story of this book as well, with Odrade and Shiana and the heretics.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think you really hit the nail on its head when you said, we are doing our best to understand this in the full context of within Dune. And then there's, like, a whole separate conversation to be had about Frank as the author that he was, who was always commenting on some element of society. And you go, oh, yeah, okay, so then how do we step back and look at, like, religion as a whole and these religious things that now have violence? It's like, oh, my God, there's so much to talk about that we just don't have time to.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

At some point, we'll have to come back to this. Or maybe we'll do an episode on C and Oak. I don't know. We'll have to. We'll figure it out. Yeah.

[Abu]

And a lot of this doesn't make sense yet either, because there's still more to come.

[Leo]

There's more book. Oh, Drede, we are not done with books. Right.

[Abu]

So some things we can't say because they will be more things. More dots will be connected later in the book.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

Okay, that was a big takeaway. Let's take another quick breather. Yeah, but don't go anywhere, folks, because we got dessert. We got a spice morsel coming up after a short break, so stick around. We will see you in just a minute.

[Leo]

Sweetest spice morsel this side of heaven. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you're ready for a delicious morsel. Today's Solitary spice morsel might seem underwhelming because there's just one, but I'm here to tell you folks, our morsel today, full of the sweetest meat this side of heaven.

[Abu]

Yum.

[Leo]

Today's spice morsel is Sligs.

[Abu]

Brought to you by Popeyes.

[Leo]

Brought to you by Popeyes. The mixed slig is back, folks. We've been wanting to talk about sligs for literal years on discord. We are the Sligs, after all.

[Abu]

We are.

[Leo]

And although they have come up a couple of times in the book so far, today gives us the most information to date about the Tleilaxu. Slimy, creepy, crawly critters.

[Abu]

Oh, this is so gross.

[Leo]

So we're going to talk about them now. Frank helps us out. We don't have the terminology of the Imperium anymore, but that doesn't mean he can't drop expositional bombs on us. And he does so today with this bit of world building exposition. Those slowly creeping crosses between giant slugs and pigs might provide meat for some of the most expensive meals in the universe, but the creatures themselves embodied everything the Sisterhood held repugnant about. The Tleilaxu. Sligs had been one of the earliest many Tleilax barter items, a product grown in their tanks and formed with the helical core from which all life took its shapes. That the Benny Twilax made them added to the aura of obscenity around a creature whose multi mouths ground incessantly on almost any garbage, passing that garbage swiftly into excrement that not only smelled of the sty.

[Abu]

Ew.

[Leo]

But was slimy.

[Abu]

My God.

[Leo]

End quote. You're telling me this excrement not only smelled of the sty, but was also slimy?

[Abu]

It didn't stop at just smelling like the sty. Okay, it was also slimy.

[Leo]

Tell me how it feels to the touch, Frank. Tell me how it sounds. You haven't covered all the senses. But why? Why would the Tleilax who do something so gross so early on? One of their first bartering items? Taraza wonders at this. Looking at waf quote, for what possible reason might people build around themselves a mask of obscenity?

[Abu]

Why indeed.

[Leo]

End quote. And of course, folks, we know the answer. We learned the answer in chapter five of this book. The Tleilaxu have intentionally fed into the long pretense, cultivating an identity as vile, as detestable, and as dirty, so that people underestimate them, so that people don't look too closely at Benny Tlak's planning, Right. If you write someone off as a gross icky boy, you're not gonna like wonder what 5D chess they're playing. Yeah, and it's fucking worked. Taraz is sitting across from Till Oath Waugh not knowing jack shit about him for sure. She wins the argument, of course. But they still don't know almost anything about the Benny Toileks.

[Abu]

Right? All conjecture, all bluffs.

[Leo]

They've never infiltrated them once.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So it's an interesting game they're playing and they're playing it very well. But long pretense creates reality. Or whatever that fish speaker said before they were killed. Yeah, they're gross. And sleeks are gross. And it's excellent and I love it.

[Abu]

Multiple mouths. The multi mouths passing, eating any garbage.

[Leo]

Garbage into slimy smelling of sty excrement.

[Abu]

Half slug, half pig. I mean, do we need to paint you a picture, dear listener?

[Leo]

But it's also, according to a CHOAM advert, the sweetest meat this side of heaven. Right.

[Abu]

You know, yin and yang.

[Leo]

Yin and yang.

[Abu]

It's the balance.

[Leo]

They are the embodiment of Tao. Yeah, really. And I'll also point out.

[Abu]

Would you try slig?

[Leo]

Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

Oh, wow. No hesitation.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Abu]

Okay. I'm a picky eater. I'd probably turn my nose up at it.

[Leo]

But the thing is, it's probably. It's in the most expensive dishes in the universe. True. I'm expecting you're getting like the little like slice of it and it's like sauce. Yeah. And some like potatoes and you know, like I imagine it's that so you, you can like kind of cut a piece of it and. And then it's the best thing you've ever tasted.

[Abu]

Right? Right. It's fine dining.

[Leo]

I don't have to have a slig sty outside of my apartment, you know, like I don't need to deal with the creatures themselves. Yeah, fine dining.

[Abu]

That's just the slig farmers, they gotta deal with that. They gotta shovel that slimy smelling of style slig shit all day long.

[Leo]

Slingin slig shit is a tongue twister we can introduce.

[Abu]

Write about it, Brian.

[Leo]

Write about it, Brian. Give us a full slig farmer.

[Abu]

I want a story about a slig farmer.

[Leo]

Yeah, just a slice of life of a slig farmer. Give me 340 pages of that slot.

[Abu]

Only vibes.

[Leo]

Only vibes, Brian. Instead of bad books, write good books. Like the 400 page only vibes slig farmer novel that we've all been wanting. We've Been asking for this for 70 years before Dune was written. I also, I'll say kind of on a somewhat serious note, it is kind of cool to see in a universe that has returned to feudalism and that always kind of grapples with these, like, early humanity patterns, the idea of basic items of trade being pieces with of, like, grander plans within plans is just cool. Oh, yeah, it's cool to see the. The Tleilax who being intentional with their bartering items to cultivate these. These things. It's great. So cool. And you know what? Chair dogs. Sligs. Awful, awful, awful creations. But Frank is nothing if not consistent with the world he's building.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right. What a great morsel. The tastiest morsel this side of heaven.

[Leo]

Indeed it is.

[Abu]

And the slimiest. All right, for the next episode, folks, we have some homework for you.

[Leo]

As always, indeed.

[Abu]

For the next book club episode, make sure you have read chapters 22, 23, and 24. And if your copies are slightly different than ours, then just make sure you've read through the chapter that ends on the sentence quote. In imagination, he saw her dead and her body awash in blood. Wow. End quote.

[Leo]

That's a fucking metal way to end a chapter. Good Lord.

[Abu]

Can't wait to find out what the fuck that's talking about.

[Leo]

Good Lord. Yeah. Wow. I feel like this book is sometimes violent. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show. Keep in touch with us, and the two best ways have been and will forever be becoming a patron and getting yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in our show notes, especially being a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar Best way to support what we do here at Gom Jabbar.

[Abu]

That's right. And also we love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] Send us your thoughts, send us your questions as you read along with us, send us cute pictures of your pets, send us your favorite slig recipes from New York Times cooking. We want it all, Tom Jabbar. PodcastMail.com is the place.

[Leo]

Yeah, you know, actually from Daris Balat, there was. There was an art. There was a. I guess it was kind of a journal entry from Leto. And it was talking about Keen.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And it was saying that, keen, that's a cool place. And they say it gets colder. Abu, I know you're bundled up now, but wait till you get older.

[Abu]

Wait till I get older.

[Leo]

The meteor men. Oh, they beg to differ. Judging by the hole in the satellite picture.

[Abu]

Something something Satellite picture? Yeah, you know, the whole. I don't think I ever actually knew the lyrics to this song.

[Leo]

I'm gonna be honest, and I don't mean in any kind of offense to anyone. I thought it said ho in the satellite picture. Like a lady dressed scantily.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

It gets warmer. Judging based on her wardrobe. But the hole in the satellite picture is what this website's saying. Genius.com. are you a genius?

[Abu]

Genius is quite reliable. Maybe the rays of the sun have burned a hole in the picture.

[Leo]

Okay, well, we'll be back with our deep analysis of All Star by Smashbound. Get a hard pivot to song lyrics.

[Abu]

Ghost written by Leito two by later.

[Leo]

Two by Linkin Park.

[Abu]

The slig version of that band is the Smash Mouths.

[Leo]

Oh, smells of the sty is slimy. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast, always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lorp Party Podcast Network on Lore party party.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore underscore party. We're also on TikTok at Gomjabar Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.