Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 8)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast - Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 8) Summary

Release Date: February 21, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Podcast by Lore Party Media

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Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo delve into the eighth part of their book club series on Heretics of Dune. Catering to both longtime fans and newcomers, they explore intricate plot developments, character dynamics, and the overarching philosophies embedded within Frank Herbert's expansive Dune universe.

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Chapter Summaries

Chapter 22: The Power Play in Tuik’s Private Audience

Abu and Leo kick off their discussion with Chapter 22, focusing on the tense meeting between Headley Tuek and Reverend Mother Odrade in Tuik's private audience chamber. The hosts highlight the deceptive nature of the session, revealing that multiple factions, including the Bene Gesserit, Face Dancers, and the Rakist Priesthood, are covertly eavesdropping.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "These private quarters are hardly private. There is a wide range of folks listening in." [05:27]
• Leo: "Everyone is listening in. Truly insane ensemble." [06:17]

The conversation underscores Odrade's strategic brilliance as she manipulates Tuek to provoke Prince Waff, leading to his entrance and the subsequent assassination attempt. Odrade's adeptness is further showcased when she thwarts Waff's attempt by breaking both of his arms and dodging his weapon, demonstrating her mastery of Bene Gesserit combat techniques.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "She is utterly outwitted. He is outmatched in practically every sense by this incredible Bene Gesserit." [06:54]
• Leo: "Odrade controls the tempo... She is in control of the situation." [10:18]

Ultimately, Odrade successfully convinces Waff of a fabricated religious alignment between the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu, forging a precarious alliance aimed at countering the impending threat of the Honored Matres.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "We're part of the Great Kell." [12:19]
• Leo: "The tactical brilliance of the Bene Gesserit... Waff now fully believes the Bene Gesserit are allies..." [13:31]

Chapter 23: Taraza’s Leadership and the Weight of the Golden Path

The discussion transitions to the leadership style of Mother Superior Taraza. Abu and Leo analyze her cold and detached approach, emphasizing how it serves the survival of the Bene Gesserit amidst internal divisions and external threats. They draw parallels between Taraza's management and real-world executive decisions, pondering whether such detachment is necessary for effective leadership in vast, complex organizations.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo: "You have to be ultimately pragmatic. You have to be able to make those difficult decisions." [56:30]
• Abu: "Your loyalty is to the institution and not to the people." [59:44]

The hosts examine how Taraza's strategies introduce necessary "rot" within the sisterhood, challenging stagnation and fostering adaptability. This approach creates both cohesion and conflict, highlighting the delicate balance leaders must maintain between institutional loyalty and personal relationships.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "Some rot is noble and necessary." [50:06]
• Leo: "Taraza is shaking up things in the Bene Gesserit in ways that make some of her colleagues uncomfortable." [53:02]

Chapter 24: Awakening Duncan and the Struggle with Memory

In Chapter 24, the focus shifts to Dr. Teg's emotional ordeal as he undertakes the ghola awakening process for Duncan Idaho. Abu and Leo describe the harrowing procedure involving intense mental pressure and physical agony, which not only traumatizes Duncan but also leaves Teg scarred.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "This new technique left the scars in the one who managed the process." [33:57]
• Leo: "He knows he can ignore the Voice... One could never escape the God Emperor's prescience." [24:48]

As Duncan regains his memories, he grapples with his past actions and the sacrifices made by Paul Atreides. The interaction between Duncan and Lucilla further illustrates the complex power dynamics and the resilience of Teg, who resists the Bene Gesserit’s manipulative controls.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "Lucilla is livid that Tag has potentially fucked up her plans and screwed her over." [37:35]
• Leo: "He is one of the most capable people in the universe." [38:54]

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Big Takeaways

1. Leadership and Detachment in the Bene Gesserit

Abu and Leo delve deep into the leadership style of Taraza, highlighting the necessary cold detachment required to steer the Bene Gesserit through political turbulence and internal dissent. They debate the moral and ethical implications of prioritizing institutional survival over personal relationships, drawing similarities to real-world corporate executives.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "The first loyalty is to the institution." [59:44]
• Leo: "It's hard to say outside of Dune, because these concepts are so unique." [62:08]

2. The Necessity of "Rot" for Institutional Growth

The concept of "rot" introduced by Taraza serves as a metaphor for necessary change and disruption within stagnant institutions. Abu and Leo discuss how controlled dissent and strategic manipulation can prevent organizational decay, ensuring adaptability in the face of evolving threats.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "Some rot is noble and necessary." [50:06]
• Leo: "Taraza is shaking up things in the Bene Gesserit in ways that make some of her colleagues uncomfortable." [53:02]

3. Emotional Resilience in High-Stakes Decisions

The hosts explore the emotional burdens carried by those in leadership roles, especially within the monopolistic, longstanding Bene Gesserit sisterhood. They consider whether emotional detachment is a survival mechanism or a sign of inherent flaws in leadership structures.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "You cannot be friends with the people whose livelihoods you control." [59:44]
• Leo: "It's the trolley problem in that sense." [60:55]

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Spice Morsels

Hetairas: Courtesans of the Dune Universe

Abu and Leo unpack the term "hetaira," drawing parallels between the Dune universe and ancient Greek courtesans. They discuss the role of hetairas as educated companions who wield significant social influence, reflecting on their use as both tools of diplomacy and subjugation within the complex political landscape of Dune.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo: "Hetaira is defined by Britannica as... professional, independent courtesans of ancient Greece." [70:22]
• Abu: "They are sex workers... the honored Matres are using sex as a blunt instrument of subjugation." [74:55]

Banquet Scene Analysis: Echoes of Dune’s Origins

The discussion moves to an epigraph describing a grand banquet, mirroring the iconic dining scenes from the original Dune novel. Abu and Leo speculate on the historical accuracy and in-universe implications of a 5,000-year-old event being meticulously documented, considering the continuity and preservation of cultural memories within the Dune timeline.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu: "That's a snooper. Super fun to get this epigraph." [75:19]
• Leo: "If that is what the plaque in this museum read... you gotta have a strong source for sure." [77:04]

Dish Breakdown:

• Roast Desert Hare in Sauce Sapita: A nod to traditional Dune cuisine.
• Aploma Syrian Chukka Under Glass: Reflects the evolution of dishes over millennia.
• Potato and Sparkling Caladan Wine: Incorporates varied cultural elements into the feast.

Abu and Leo entertain creative interpretations of the dishes, suggesting potential recipes for fans to explore, blending real-world culinary practices with the rich tapestry of Dune's universe.

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Conclusion

Abu and Leo provide a comprehensive and insightful analysis of Heretics of Dune (Part 8), unraveling the complex political maneuvers, leadership philosophies, and timeless themes that continue to make the Dune series a cornerstone of science fiction. Their engaging discussions not only dissect the narrative intricacies but also invite listeners to ponder broader questions of leadership, loyalty, and the delicate balance between institutional duty and personal morality.

For those eager to delve deeper, Abu and Leo encourage active participation through Discord and email, fostering a vibrant community of Dune enthusiasts eager to explore the depths of Herbert’s universe.

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Notable Episode Highlights:

• Strategic manipulation and alliance-building by Reverend Mother Odrade.
• The cold, detached leadership style of Mother Superior Taraza and its implications.
• The emotional and psychological toll of awakening a ghola, as experienced by Dr. Teg and Duncan Idaho.
• Exploration of hetairas and their sociopolitical roles within the Dune universe.
• Creative analysis of banquet scenes and their historical reverberations across millennia.

Timestamps for Key Quotes:

• "These private quarters are hardly private. There is a wide range of folks listening in." — Abu [05:27]
• "Odrade controls the tempo... She is in control of the situation." — Leo [10:18]
• "Some rot is noble and necessary." — Abu [50:06]
• "You cannot be friends with the people whose livelihoods you control." — Abu [59:44]
• "Hetaira is defined by Britannica as... professional, independent courtesans of ancient Greece." — Leo [70:22]

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Whether you're navigating the treacherous political landscapes of Dune or pondering the ethical quandaries of leadership, this episode offers a rich tapestry of insights that illuminate the timeless allure of Herbert's masterpiece.

Transcript

[Abu]

I assure you, Reverend Mother Superior, that.

[Leo]

The podcast Assure me of nothing. We assure ourselves. And you think we don't know that you sold us noisy audio.

[Abu]

The noise floor meets every requirement opposed by Apple's podcast audio standards.

[Leo]

You have buried your own ASMR in the audio file. I warn you, Sir Waffle, that if your alterations obstruct our episode, we will wound you deeper than you think possible. You stop that ASMR right now.

[Abu]

My fans love it.

[Leo]

As I hold up my new. My coffee cup. My.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Okay, I want my water bottle.

[Abu]

Look, if Wav can't cut it as master of Masters, I think he's got an ASMR career at ahead of him. He's good. He's good.

[Leo]

I will settle feet pics, Odrade. No one's gonna buy those, Waff, you idiot.

[Abu]

Tleilaxu feet. Could you imagine?

[Leo]

What if they were super hot, though? Like, I'm not into feet, but, like, what if Tleilaxu feet? Like. Right, right.

[Abu]

What if they made you into feet? You know, you're like, I don't have a foot fetish. And then you see Tleilaxu feet and you're like, do I?

[Leo]

The greatest plot twist of. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name's Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show. Today on the show, Our show. Today on the show, Heretics, we are continuing our Heretics of Dune. Read through. We got some great chapters today.

[Abu]

Yeah, I agree.

[Leo]

I say that every episode. I like this.

[Abu]

And, you know, as of last episode, I don't agree every time. Today, I do.

[Leo]

Okay, cool.

[Abu]

A great set of chapters today.

[Leo]

Glad we're aligned. Sometimes. Now to take care of some housekeeping quickly before we get to our chapters that were so much fun. Today's episode will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books that we've covered thus far. So if you are caught up with our book club series, you are safe to listen.

[Abu]

Yes, and of course, a huge shout out here at the top to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Cabalo, Jonathan Lamberton, Cross Spruel. Folks, here's the thing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I would never be compelled to bluff if we came to the negotiating table, because I know, thanks to your generosity, you'd Be here ready to negotiate in good faith.

[Leo]

It's true. Yeah.

[Abu]

And that is a rare thing.

[Leo]

It is.

[Abu]

And we appreciate it. And of course, our thanks and our appreciation extends to all of our patrons at every level who, frankly, we can negotiate with at the largest negotiating table in the universe.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We could not make this content in particular without all of your support. So we thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

[Leo]

Indeed we do. All right. Well, today's episode follows a familiar pattern. This is a book club episode, after all. So today we're going to begin with a summary of today's chapters. Then we're going to dive into kind of a big, chunky takeaway. And then we're going to wrap up with some yummy, delicious spice morsels. Before we get into it, we're going to take a quick break. So, dear listener, don't go anywhere. We haven't even started the episode yet. Get the Angel REEF special at McDonald's. Now, let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and the drinks. Sound good? Ba da ba ba ba. I participate in restaurants for a limited time. I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve.

[Abu]

And it does without me lifting a.

[Leo]

Finger so I can get in more.

[Abu]

Squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3.

[Leo]

Will that be cash or credit?

[Abu]

Credit.

[Leo]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra. The AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do. You get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy.

[Abu]

Welcome back folks. Let's dive into today's chapters, starting with chapter 22. Yeah, we hope you're fans of two people sitting in a room talking. Oh, because that is chapter 22. The two people in question. In the left corner we got Headley Tuek. In the right corner we have Darwee O'Draid. The location, Tuik's private audience shaper.

[Leo]

I'm sure no one can listen in to them in this private audience.

[Abu]

You'd be wrong if you believed that.

[Leo]

Everyone is listening in Truly insane ensemble.

[Abu]

These private quarters are hardly private. There is a wide range of folks listening in. First of all, we have Waff, master of masters himself. Plus his face dancers listening in thanks to some colluding with Headley Tuek. In addition to that, of course, O'Draid would not hold a meeting without having some accolades and assistants listening in and taking notes as well. So we got some Bene Gesserit listening.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we have a third faction involved here, and they're listening as well. Folks, the rakist priesthood is also tuning into this frequency. This might as well be a public broadcast in a private audience chamber.

[Leo]

So it's also being. Yeah, it's going out on public airwaves. So just like anyone on rakis with rabbit ear antennas can just, like, watch the whole meeting.

[Abu]

You just find the right frequency. Yeah, very easy. Very easy. Now, this meeting is happening in the first place because Tuek wants to reclaim Shiana from Odrade's care. Odrade is having this meeting because she is fully aware that the Tleilaxu are listening, and she is setting up a trap for the Tleilaxu in particular. Tuek is just a means to an end, just a tool she is using to get to the true purpose here, which is Waf. Now, throughout the meeting, Odrade is just, like, outright dominating the High Priest.

[Leo]

It's unreal.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's unreal. He is utterly outwitted. He is outmatched in practically every sense by this incredible Bene Gesserit. And she plays him like a fiddle. In order to get Waff to join the room. She's getting him to say all the wrong things, basically to piss off Waff so that he will enter the room and so that the real negotiations can begin. She's playing this classic Bene gesserit game of 5D chess. And Tuek came prepared to play tic tac toe.

[Leo]

Yeah. I will say, as someone who was very impressed by Tuek earlier in the book, less impressed now, again, we are juxtaposing him against one of the most intellectually capable people in the universe. So grading on a curve here, but you're absolutely right. The fact that Tuek doesn't even understand, because we learned that he's kind of been strong armed into letting Waff listen in, but he so clearly has no idea the sensitivities of Waff that he's saying these things that are super incendiary, that are gonna piss Waff off, having no clue the effect it's having on this person who, in theory, he has, like, a mortal fear of.

[Abu]

Exactly. And again, her ultimate goal has nothing to do with Tuek. It's entirely to get Waff to come into this room so that she can speak to him face to face. And her strategy here is quite clever. She continues to bring the conversation away from Shiana and Back to the Atreides manifesto, this thing that has utterly pissed off the priesthood because it's full of heretical ideas that go against their religion and, in fact, many religions across the universe. Now, ultimately, the conversation between Odrade and Tuek comes to a head when Odrade's like, okay, training wheels are coming off. I know that Waff is listening. Let's just get him in the room. And Tuika's like, wt? Who's Woff?

[Leo]

Wof. He's not. There's only two people in this room. You and me.

[Abu]

Oh, my goodness. Again, he comes off as very bumbling in this scene. And, yeah, this is just a tough look for our guy Tuek, and a tough chapter for him, if you know what happens here in a little bit.

[Leo]

That's true.

[Abu]

Waff ultimately does enter the room and sits down, but Odrade notices that he is on edge. And it's clear to Odrade, through her observation of minutiae, that Waff is preparing to use his hidden dart weapons.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And that he is, in fact, not just prepared to use them, but committed to. He came in ready to kill everyone in this room. And that's exactly what happens. Waff makes his move. And in a truly exciting moment that once again shows us how effective of a Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mother Odrade is, she thwarts this assassination attempt by breaking both of Waff's arms and dodging the dart that is directed at her. Unfortunately, Tuk High Priest Tuek doesn't quite have Odrade's skills and is, in fact, hit by the dart. And that's the last of the High Priest Rip to our guy.

[Leo]

Yeah. Also shout out to Odrade, because not only did she, of course, get into Waff's defenses and break both of his arms at the same time with, like, what sounds like a crazy yoga pose, she also controlled the moment of Waff's attempt. Right. Waf could have chosen to attack at any given moment. Maybe he might have waited for Headley to come into a better place. But instead of letting him choose as the master of chess that she is, she has that moment where she says, by the way, High Priest, this Tleilax who intends to kill both of us, and then, like, dodge attack, you know, so she's controlling the tempo, Right? So we see kind of subtly how Odrade even still is in control of the situation, even as Waff takes his kind of huge risk attempting to kill her.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a great point. His finger is on the trigger. But she's the one that primed the gun. She's like, launch so that she could dodge it in time. Exactly. Yeah. It's very impressive to watch. Oh. Drade in action and at the top of her game. It's very exhilarating stuff. Now the chapter wraps up as Odrade patches up Waff's arms as best she can in the situation. She wakes him up and she interrogates him. Waff, of course, is not in any sort of mood to negotiate or work with the Bene Gesserit. But O'Drade plays an ace up her sleeve. And it's clearly based off the information that Taraza, in her own negotiations with Waff, had picked up on.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

That the Tleilaxu appear to be steeped in Zensunni and Sufi religion secretly. And Odrade leans in. She says all the right words and performs all the right actions here to convince WoF that the bene Gesserit also share the Tleilaxu's secret religion. We're aligned in this, buddy. We're not Powinda. Okay.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're part of the Great Kell.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's in your best interest to work with us against the true Powinda out there. AKA the Honored Matres.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And this totally works. Again, an incredible bluff from the Bene Gesserit. Based off of minimal data, and based off of their analysts working and speculating, Odrade is able to fully convince the Master of Masters that she is one of them and that the Bene Gesserit secretly believe the same thing that Tleilaxu do. And so they decide to work together. The path forward is obvious. The Face Dancers will replace Tuek to avoid any sort of commotion within the priesthood. We'll just have a fake Tuek in place controlling that situation.

[Leo]

Yeah, simple.

[Abu]

And moving forward, the Bene Gesserit and the Teleoeaxu are going to work together to take on this incoming storm from the Scattering in the shape of the Honored Madres. And that's where the chapter ends. In a stunning twist, Waff now fully believes the Bene Gesserit are allies and is prepared to work with them. Which is a dramatic change from where he stood just three chapters ago.

[Leo]

Yeah, we really get to see not only Odrade's incredible capabilities in just a moment to moment basis with her ability to, you know, survive the assassination attempt and control the conversation, but also the tactile brilliance. Tactile? No, the tactical brilliance. We get to see the tactical brilliance of the Bene Gesserit. The way they slowly build up their intel about a mark, right? The way Tarazah tees up the Wiffle ball and then O'Draid gets to come in and just slam the home run. And the whole time Waff has no clue. And we see in Waff's own observations how distrustful he is of the Bene Gesserit all the time. So it's even that much more incredible to me that he's like, my God, she is genuinely a believer. And you're not. Like, you don't think this is a fucking trick, Waff, you think these Bene Gesserit witches are capable of anything except for lying about the great belief? It's wild. It's so crazy, right?

[Abu]

I mean, it also condemns Waf's sort of blindside when it comes to the great belief. Right. All it takes is for you to say the right words and suddenly this guy believes. You know, it shows a certain level of weakness in that type of belief, which again, knowing Frank and his message throughout these books, feels very intentional.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If you are such a hardcore believer in something very easy to control you, persuade you, trick you.

[Leo]

The unquestioning belief, right? And that's also. He's foregoing all of his other senses, all of his other suspicions and doubts and caution and fear and self preservation all disappearing.

[Abu]

The pain of his broken arms.

[Leo]

Of his recently, very recently broken arms. Yeah, you're right. He is completely foregoing all of that because of this unquestioning belief for sure. That's so cool. Well, that's chapter 22, chapter 23, listeners. Are you a fan of. I mean, we were just in a room with two people talking, right? Right now we're in one person in her office alone, thinking. You a fan of that? Hope you are, because that's what we got.

[Abu]

Introverts, rise up.

[Leo]

You're in luck. We're alone. Woo woo hoo. We are not with people. And this chapter is like 99% exposition. Nothing really happens. Effectively, Taraza composes an email and sends it and it's like good plot, bro.

[Abu]

Which, fine, if you consider that your full eight hour workday. More power to you, man. Sometimes that is also my eight hour workday. Listen, is composing one email.

[Leo]

A well composed email can take a while. I mean, people know, people know you get salary just by sending the right kind of emails. But here, let's talk about some highlights from the chapter. So first we get this hilarious look into Taraza's absolute disgust with the Bene Gesserit archives. She hates them. She's. She's so petty. She really hates also the reliance on them. She doesn't like someone being an interpreter for the data. And the way that the data is kept requires that there be someone to say, here's what the data means, or here's the search result that you were asking for. And she hates that, even though it's a necessary part of her job.

[Abu]

Right. It's also this built in bureaucracy that slows down the process. She laments the fact that everything needs data and research and analyses before a decision can be made. Maybe let's just sign the contract.

[Leo]

Why do we have to have 12.

[Abu]

Meetings about it first?

[Leo]

Yeah. And as we kind of join her, she's reviewing a report on breeding projections with waf. A really unfortunate combination of words. Yeah. So, okay, we mate with waf. I mean, he has sexy feet, but like, what else is going on? That's not going to make any sense if we edit down that intro now.

[Abu]

We got to keep the intro.

[Leo]

I guess we have to keep the intro now so we get a sense of how long term Bene Gesserit thinking really is. We've always known this about them, but this is almost staggering. Despite that she had asked for Waff's projections to be carried out into 300 generations. An easy and rather rapid task, sufficient for all practical purposes. End quote. Which is just nuts.

[Abu]

It is.

[Leo]

And then for her to be like, you know, that's just an easy request, like, this is. We're keeping it narrow scope because we don't want to get too ahead of ourselves.

[Abu]

Yeah, right. We've always talked about the Bene Gesserit having these long tail plans. This kind of puts it in numbers for us.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think when you actually think of it in these numbers, it is quite staggering.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, turning a little bit to the archival data itself, we are also casually told this kind of bombshell about how the Sisterhood stores its breeding data.

[Abu]

This is hilarious.

[Leo]

This is hilarious. And also very much indicative of, like, how the universe has been. Right. Quote. The Sisterhood had carried its main lines in computers even back in the forbidden days after the Butlerian Jihad's wild smashing of the thinking machines. End quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Fucking nuts. But also, let's talk about it. Leto would have known. Paul would have known. These are people who have awareness of everything everywhere, all at once. So when Leto is toeing the line with some of the requests he has from the Ixians and people are going, oh, my God, is that allowed? Is the thing that Nayla uses to communicate with him is that forbidden technology. Leto, meanwhile, is, like, fully conscious of the fact that the Bene Gesserit are maintaining, like, HP computers in some, like, back office somewhere. He's like, it's fine. They have full server racks. I can have my pager.

[Abu]

Well, I've always sort of understood it as, like, it's just kind of an open secret that, like, the more powerful you are and the richer you are, the more you can sort of skirt the Butlerian Jihad totally. Even in last week's reading. Or maybe it's in this week's reading when we're in the no globe. Lucilla and Teg are both looking at things that are, like, basically breaking the Harkonnens. I've also been skirting the lines of the prohibition against thinking machines for generations. And I've always got the sense that the Butlerian Jihad is a thing we've all agreed to. But if you are powerful and rich enough, if you're a great house, if you wield enough influence, if you can bribe enough people, you could get.

[Leo]

You could get yourself an iPhone kind of do anything. Yeah, yeah. That's a really great point. And it's also very in line with the commentary that Frank often makes about society. The sort of weird. It's like, yeah, laws and rules enforce the people who are under the thumb of those in power. And those in power don't really fucking give a shit what the rules are.

[Abu]

Yeah. And it's clear the Bene Gesserit were among those powerful rich people that were clearly breaking the Butlerian Jihad for generations. And it's fun to get confirmation of that here, pretty blatantly.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. It's really incredible. Now, Taraza, she's filled with doubts even as her plans are kind of changing and evolving. We get this really fascinating little peek into everything that's happening. For her quote, the Mother Superior was supposed to be immune to indecision in a crisis, which, of course, it's like, everyone could be subject to indecision given the right level of crisis. But this is. The pressure of being the Reverend Mother Superior is like, you are supposed to be above that, but you're just human. So it's like. It's really. It's an impossible bar to clear, basically.

[Abu]

Certainly.

[Leo]

And her doubts and her kind of indecision about all this leads her to wonder about the tyrant and his golden path. Right. Leto, which is still kind of a mystery to the Bene Gesserit. He did something to us that we have not yet unearthed, even after all of these millennia. I think I know what he did. My opposition says otherwise, end quote. So they understand, yes, the human humanity has been saved by the tyrant. Part of his plan, we now know, was to get humanity exponentially scattered across all of the distant stars. So we're good, right? But she goes, or are we. Is there more to it? Are we still. Have we guaranteed humanity's eternal survival? Or is there another thing that we have to get over and are we a part of it? All of this feels very intentional. The pearls of his awareness being in these worms and then a girl being able to stop. Is this all part of his plan? Yeah, who's to say? And even I think it was. Teg in the no globe is like, is this something that you know? Like, why did Leto let them have this technology? Was this part of the plan? Did Leto know that we would need this safe spot? Like, everyone's wondering this thousands of years after Leto's dead. Anyone who knows is going, did he plan for me to be in this room right now? Did I. Am I supposed to. Should I do more asmr? Did he expect me to do more asmr? Is that what Leto expected of me?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Just.

[Abu]

Even Tag even has a throwaway thought where he's like, one could never escape the God Emperor's prescience.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You know, even now, thousands of years later, you can't help but wonder, did the God Emperor know I'd be here?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Are we still working within the bounds of his prescient visions of what he saw this far into the future? Or are we now in a wild, chaotic, unknown future that he simply set up? I personally think it's more the latter. Based on the evidence we were given in God Emperor, it doesn't appear that Leto looked that much further beyond his own death, outside of minor confirmations that humanity would still be around and that any large existential threat was minimized or removed. I don't think he was looking at the specifics of Teg in a NOTLO 1,500 years in the future.

[Leo]

I agree somewhat. I do think. I imagine the way that Leto would have dealt with it is he sees the Harkonnens amassing their wealth and putting all of this stuff in a no globe. And I see him considering stopping them or confronting them. And I see that being something that affects his assuredness of the Golden Path. So he decides in that moment. I don't know why. I don't know why I should let them have that no globe. But I see That I should. Because if I think about fucking with them and taking their no globe right now, that could lead to problems down the road. Right, right.

[Abu]

Yep, Exactly.

[Leo]

It's like, yeah, I don't think he was playing the puppet master for tens of thousands of years to the moment and everything. But I do think that what we are seeing is an accumulation of thousands of years of Leto being in charge of everything happening in the universe. These are all domino pieces that he has been set up by other people. And he's.

[Abu]

And I think a better way to think about it is actually we can't escape the echoes of Leto II's prescience.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

You know, like, I think Tag is thinking literal. Did Leto II look into his, like, little spyglass and see me standing here? I think the answer is no. But did Aleto II look into his spyglass and realize Harkonnens would maybe make a no globe someday? Yes. And so the echoes of that are affecting people 1500 years later. The fact that, as you stated, he allowed the Harkonnens to do this is now creating a safe space for the ghola and Tag and Lucilla. So it. It's the echoes of his prescience, the echoes of his thousands of years of decisions that are still affecting humanity today and still puzzling humanity. To get back to our original point, like, Taraza is sitting here thinking about how the Bene Gesserit are still debating about the Golden Path and the God Emperor's decisions for humanity. She has one theory on it. Her opposition have another theory on it. And I think that divide shows how many questions are still left about Leto and his Golden Path.

[Leo]

Yeah. Okay. Well, this chapter wraps up Taraza's wool gathering. Her thinking, her planning, her strategizing, wraps up with some wild revelations about Tarazah's plans for Odrade.

[Abu]

This is crazy.

[Leo]

Genuinely wild. In short, Taraza is and has been her whole, like, friendship with Odrade basically been performing a risky gamble. Odrade has hidden Atreides talents that sort of, like, prescient sensitivity that seeps into her instincts and really colors a lot of the decisions she makes. Even having her write the Atreides Manifesto was a way of getting her to engage in some of those thoughts and also shielding her a little bit from the realization of their truth and things like that. And doing so is risky. It puts Odrade in a position to come to conclusions that take her away from the Bene Gesserit in a way that's really dangerous. And so the plan, as Taraza has argued is let Odrade handle things, and if she gets any weird ideas, we'll just kill her. Oh, easy. And in fact, guess who's gonna kill her? Lucilla. Incredible fucking wild. The Dar and Tar friendliness is basically revealed to be kind of a long con from Taraza to make, oh, yeah, kind of weak to her because she knows that Odrade still clings to certain levels of familiarity and love and softness and thinks of it as her own strength. Taraza's aware of that and then leans into it as a way of manipulating Odrade.

[Abu]

And I think it sets up an interesting contrast between Lucilla and Odrade as characters, as well as these two highly effective reverend mothers. We see two sides of a coin. We see Odrade having these thoughts in the last episode. We talked about how she's, like, bitter about her station, how she always is thinking about her. Her first seduction and the love that she feels. And her thoughts are always coming back to this forbidden love and her childhood. Whereas whenever we're in Lucilla's head and we switch over to Gamu and the ghola chapters, she's full on, like, by the books. Taraza told me to do this. I need to follow this. I don't know what the whole plan is, but I'm loyal to the sisterhood to the end. And we almost never read about Lucilla having any sort of quote, unquote, heretical thoughts. Whereas almost every time we cut to Odrade, there's some sort of heretical thoughts happening.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And I think, like, that sets up the contrast here, and it shows us the two sort of tools that Taraza is using in her plan. On one hand, she's got the deeply loyal Lucilla, and on the other hand, she's got the wild but talented Odrade. And if she needs to, she will use one against the other.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah. It's a really great point, especially when it comes to the idea of that heresy and whether or not she's allowing it. I also am remembering. I remember them as being Darin Tar and really loving that. So I'm like, God, did I just miss this the first time? I'm excited to read more because definitely I'm curious. Is this truly how she thinks about it? Or maybe are there layers to how she's thinking about it as well? Nevertheless, this chapter leaves us with a very cold and calculating Taraza who is willing to just cut whatever fat she needs to to ensure the Bene Gesserit's survival. Even so far as manipulating the affections of a supposed friend.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And she is the Mother Superior, after all. Like, this is her role. Every mother Superior acted out of a profound loyalty to her sisterhood. Nothing must endanger Bene Gesserit continuity, not even herself. In her precise and harshly self judgmental way, Taraza examined her relationship to the sister's continuing life. End quote.

[Abu]

There it is.

[Leo]

So this is it. There it is.

[Abu]

Okay, our last chapter today, folks. Chapter 24. Hope you're a fan of physical and psychological trauma induced to awaken latent memories in an artificially recreated 4,000 year old dead man. Because this. Oh, my gosh, is the chapter where you're going to get that specifically, that I am.

[Leo]

That's fun.

[Abu]

Good.

[Leo]

It's my favorite trope in books. Remember when it happens in the Hungry. Hungry Caterpillar is my favorite part.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right. Okay, so to set the scene for this chapter, Miles and Lucilla and Duncan are hiding out in the Harkonnen globe that they arrive, arrived at previously. And they are basically waiting. They're biding their time until they can make their next move. Now, Duncan, throughout this chapter, we learned that Duncan has had these visceral reactions to all of the Harkonnen history that's all over this no globe.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But he can't quite figure out yet why he feels this way. Why does he hate this place so much, so deeply in his core?

[Leo]

Yeah. Other than the fucking disgusting design choices.

[Abu]

The grandfather clock, the interior design sounds.

[Leo]

It's awful. It's just so gross and weird.

[Abu]

Right. Gosh, I too would have a visceral reaction to that.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But of course, with Duncan, we know it's a little bit deeper than just the horrible interior design.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So the day finally arrives. Teg and Duncan are alone in the dining room. And the Bashar decides. Now is my moment. Here is where I need to follow my instructions and unlock this ghola's memories. I gotta do it. Time's running out. I can only fend off Lucilla for so long.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, the modern process, the current day process of awakening a ghola is quite different from what we know in past books and in past iterations of awakenings. It's no longer this psychological inducing this psychological break within the ghola himself. Rather, it's more this intense building up of mental pressure to a boiling point, followed by very precise and extreme physical agony. Those are the instructions given to Teg. And that's the process we see ensue here in the dining room. And what's really tragic about this is that this updated process, rather than being psychologically traumatic for the ghola, is actually traumatic for the person administering it. In this case, Tag.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Quote, this new technique left the scars in the one who managed the process, end quote. Not the one who was the subject of the process, as it has always been for the Golas.

[Leo]

Yeah. I mean, I get the impression it's still. Still deeply traumatizing for the ghola as well, because Teg's like, after this, you might hate me. Like, straight up, you might hate me for what I've done to you, what I'm going to do to you. And he's like, I think a lot of what makes Teg hesitant to do this is he cares about Duncan, and Duncan knows that he cares about him. And this is. It's not fun. It's not fun for either of them. And he gets to see how damaging he is. I also was going to say Teg admitting that this job, this task of awakening Duncan, leaving him feeling dirtier than literally anything else he's done for the sisterhood in hundreds of years of loyal service.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Is crazy.

[Abu]

Bold claim.

[Leo]

That's wild, for sure.

[Abu]

That's a great point. Now, as this scene plays out, Duncan is gently pushed by Tag into frustration and anger. He's sort of led by Tag to ask the proper questions so that Tag can respond in the proper way, sometimes with silence, sometimes with pushback. Ultimately, this comes to a boiling point, and Teg breaks out in this explosion of physical violence against the ghola. This is the final trigger that will push Duncan over the edge and unlock his Gola memories. It's a really horrific scene, and the way it's written is actually quite difficult to read. And you can really get a sense of how difficult this is for Teg as well, to do this. He's feeling dirty about this, as you said. Now Duncan is awakened. The process is over. He's got his memories back. They come flooding back in pieces and parts. He doesn't remember everything right away, but as he is slowly unlocking them, the most critical memory he needs to unlock is, of course, the moment of his original death in the ecological testing station at the hands of the Sardaukar as he is protecting Paul.

[Leo]

Yeah. And this. This. Actually, this was interesting to me for two reasons. First, there was a continuing question of which sample did this Gola. Was this Gola grown? From which death memory is he gonna remember?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Is this gonna be from, like, one of the Golas that Leto Crushed, or is this going to be the original? And we've been told it's the original.

[Abu]

Oh, gee.

[Leo]

Yeah, but do we know for sure? We're not. We're not sure. So who is it gonna be? So he remembers his original death moment, and that's that moment where he's fighting off the Sardaukar so that Paul and Jessica can escape. Now, one of the most. God, this moment almost brought a tear to my eye. Where Duncan's. One of his first questions coming out of this awakening is, did Paul escape? Did I buy him enough time?

[Abu]

Yeah. Great moment. Okay, so to wrap up this chapter summary, Lucilla enters here at the end, and she is livid that Tag has potentially fucked up her plans and screwed her over. Miles, if you have complicated my task in ways that prevent me from carrying out my orders, I will have you roasted on a skewer.

[Leo]

Blah, blah, blah, blah. She can't.

[Abu]

She.

[Leo]

She can't fucking touch him.

[Abu]

I mean, clearly we see her try to use the Voice on him, and it literally just passes right through him.

[Leo]

He ignores it.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's funny to see.

[Leo]

Use the Voice and he's like. And, okay, I don't really give a shit. Anyway, as I was saying. As I was saying.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's a great moment, and I think it illustrates how much a Bene Gesserit who doesn't know Tag and has maybe only ever heard of him truly underestimates Tag. I think maybe Taraza is perhaps the only Bene Gesserit that wouldn't underestimate Tag in this way. Even a Reverend Mother of Lucilla's skills and capabilities is constantly thrown off her game by Miles Tag. Shuang Yu, of course, utterly thrown off her game by Miles Tag. Yeah, he's running circles around some of these Reverend Mothers. It's crazy.

[Leo]

Yeah. And again, I think really goes back to the fact that Teg does not comprehend or at least acknowledge his value and power. Like, he knows that he can ignore the Voice. He knows his mother taught him how to do it. But it's like, no, no, Teg, this really does make you one of the most capable people in the universe.

[Abu]

Yeah, truly. Now, the chapter ends as a classic, defiant, roguish Duncan recall. You know, he has his memories back now.

[Leo]

Incredible.

[Abu]

This is somewhat the Duncan we've always known. He is out here straight up teasing and mocking Lucilla because he has put two and two together and recognized that her next objective is to sexually imprint him.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And potentially breed with him. And he's mocking her, toying with her talking about how maybe we'll find ourselves alone in a room with some music. Huh. It's a really funny scene. And it continues to obviously push Lucilla's buttons as well. She is very much stomping her feet on the ground in this moment. And the chapter ends as Duncan begins humming this old Gurney Halleck tune that comes to mind. Incredible, as in his mind, he sees this vision, not vision of a dead Lucilla awash in blood. And that's where the chapter ends, with this horrifying bit of potential foreshadowing.

[Leo]

So good, so exciting. I want to know more. I want to keep reading for sure.

[Abu]

These chapters in particular definitely made me want to blast through the rest of the book because now we're really teasing some dramatic stuff to come.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now before we get into our takeaways, let's take a quick break.

[Leo]

Let's do it.

[Abu]

Let's digest these chapters before we dive a little bit deeper. So folks, stick around. We'll see you in a minute. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ads. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.

[Leo]

The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack WelchMBA to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Shev and as many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's talk about manager Taraza.

[Abu]

Yeah, Taraza.

[Leo]

The Reverend Mother Superior. She's got her big boss hat on in today's chapters.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And her thoughts reveal a lot of really interesting aspects to not only the inner workings of the Bene Gesserit, but also the burdens of being a leader. Couldn't be me. Begs the question. So the Bene Gesserit, unlike any organization we know of in our world today. But to be an effective leader of The Bene Gesserit. Do you have to be cold and detached? Is this a necessary piece of what it is to lead a group like the Bene Gesserit? Or could you be like the kind of lovey dovey loyalty up and down like Tag or Duke Leto? I think this chapter shines some light on at least Frake's interpretation and at least the decision that Taraza's made about her leadership style.

[Abu]

Right, Definitely. I mean, let's get right into it. We get a lot of fascinating insight into this management style that Taraza has chosen, starting with, as we stated in our summary, this frustration she has with the archives and the necessity for them and the necessity for then archivists to become this conduit between her and understanding all of the information. And it's very apparent that Taraza doesn't appear to trust her subordinates and loathes having to rely on them. Yeah, loads this idea that she is dependent on them. Quote. You could never consult archival records in a straightforward manner. Much of the interpretation that emerged from that source had to be accepted on the word of the ones who brought it. Or hateful. You had to rely on the mechanical search by the holo system. This in its turn required a dependency on those who maintained the system. It gave functionaries more power than Taraza cared to delegate. End quote.

[Leo]

That's wild. This is a book being written in the 80s. But it's true. Even in conversations about surveillance and who has information about you and you're browsing in private mode. Ooh, nobody knows what you're doing except for your isp. The same thing. You have to rely on the people who maintain the systems. At some level, there's really no point at which you can be like, I know for sure where this begins and that ends. Unless you are literally building the system yourself. And we are so far beyond that in today. But also for Taraza. Taraza is not an archivist. Taraza is not creating those hollow system. She's not maintaining those mechanisms. So she has to trust them clearly beyond where she wants to. I love that.

[Abu]

Yes. The more you trust them, the more power it gives them.

[Leo]

Yes. Yeah.

[Abu]

And the harder it makes, in Taraza's mind, the harder it makes her job to make these decisions quickly and effectively.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

It's funny because this is almost on some level, Terasa, I feel like, would very much be a fan of certain parts of authoritarian rule because there's just very little bureaucracy. There's no functionaries who have power to influence or change things. And it really is a single source of power at the top that can influence things. You get a lot of efficiency that way. And I get the sense that Taraza would very much be a fan of efficiency. But of course, then, as Frank has always stated, you run the risk of a charismatic leader.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Running your organization or government into the ground.

[Leo]

Yeah. Although it's like Terrazzo wants to be Leito too. She just desperately wants to have Leto to ultimate independence from trusting anyone.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Because he didn't need to. He had Kwisatz Haderach prescience.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And she's like, ugh, I hate having to rely on systems to know stuff. Leto's like, couldn't be me. Here's another outfit of the day.

[Abu]

Later's TikTok is a fire. I think in addition to systems, also people she doesn't like relying on. Because I wanted to share this quote, I got the sense that there's quite a bit of arrogance within Taraza as well. Because she's later thinking about these archivists and thinking about how they make their annoying little secret little jokes that she doesn't understand. Quote, damn their jokes. The right decision now was far more important than they could possibly imagine. Those serving sisters who only obeyed orders did not have Taraza's responsibility. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's true. Right. Like, Taraza has a lot of responsibilities.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But it's clear that she also kind of looks down on the quote, unquote, serving sisters who are only there to obey.

[Leo]

Yeah. I see this as like, a point of frustration. Anytime anyone, you know, if Shuang Yu's giving her shit about the plan.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I imagine this is part of her frustration and, like, apathy towards Shuang Yu's concerns is like, shut up. You don't have any idea what the decisions I'm making.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And fair. I guess at a certain point. Yeah. The person in charge of everything is going to be the one blamed if everything falls apart. But still. Yeah.

[Abu]

I'm getting the sense for her. This is annoying when she gets opposition because she's like, you just don't know what you're talking about. Don't come at me if you're not ready to sit in my place and make these difficult decisions that I have to.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So I don't necessarily disagree with her. She's not wrong. That same. She has greater responsibility and the burden is much greater on her. But it's clear that some of this also comes from a place of she's in charge. And so there's. There's a Bit of arrogance there, too.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

At. Look, looking down at the people who might have genuine opposition that should be considered. And she's perhaps hand waving it away.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure. Now we are given something of an explanation for her personality and management style, which this is all something that she's chosen, which is also interesting to me. Like, she has chosen to lead in a way that doesn't rely on others and doesn't, like, build up a team around her that she can rely on to delegate her choice is to be that sort of. I'm going to keep everything very close to the chest. And some of this comes from her training. Right. Her cold distance from human relationships. That is very Bene Gesserit. Right. Don't love. Don't ever love. It's a danger, it's a risk, It's a tool you can use, but never to fall prey to. There's a defense there and there's a strength there to being guarded. But naturally, we can also start to see where there are some blind spots here. And Taraza's leadership style, whether this is something that happened long before she took over or as a direct byproduct of her being the one in charge, her leadership style has permeated the Bene Gesserit, which has caused increased division. Yeah, quote, Taraza was the perpetual devil's advocate. And this had become a dominant force in the entire sisterhood. A natural consequence of her elevation to Mother Superior. Opposition developed easily in that environment. End quote. Which is great. She's modeling the behavior of. Okay, you're suggesting this thing. What if we push back on that? And we can also see then, very early on, when she's sitting with Teg, this idea of heresy and heretics. I get the impression she's sort of a heretic.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

She's the person who's presented with dogma and goes, well, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So seeing that pushback, as even, if you might consider it, something like. She calls it rot at one point. Right, right. The rot that spreads outward. She's like, yeah, but some rot is useful. What if the. What if the apple's been an apple for too long and now we just need to shake things up and rot it to the core? It's like. Right, yeah.

[Abu]

Which, I mean, like, that, to me, stood out. That line about the rot and how some rot is noble and necessary. That, to me, felt like a thesis statement of this book.

[Leo]

Totally. Yes.

[Abu]

Felt like Taraza thinking, what Frank wants us to take away from this book, the Bene Gesserit is an ancient and old institution with deep seated values, traditions, policies, et cetera, et cetera. And it takes someone like Taraza, who's cold and distant enough from those policies and those traditions and who has this tendency toward being a devil's advocate, to shake things up. You know, like in essence, like what we're being told here is that Taraza is shaking up things in the Bene Gesserit in ways that make some of her colleagues uncomfortable and defiant, which is why she is seeing more opportunities, composition from folks like Shuang Yu. And she's presumably only able to do this because of this management style that she's chosen. If she wanted to really fit in with the Bene Gesserit, she would fall in line with the thousands of years of how they've run things. But because she is able to have this distance from her colleagues and she's able to detach herself from the emotion of the work and the emotion of the people, people, she is able to think outside the box and think in a way that challenges long held Bene Gesserit beliefs. So I think those two things are intrinsically linked. I think someone like Lucilla, were she to rise to Mother Superior status, would not be able to shake up the Bene Gesserit, would continue the status quo.

[Leo]

Much more conventional in her thinking, much more obedient to how have things been done in the past, stuff like that, versus Taraza, who's like, yeah, same thing. When I saw that sentence about the rot. Some rot is good. I was like, okay, so we're talking about heresy. We're talking. This is heretics. This is heretics of doom.

[Abu]

Title of the book. Got it.

[Leo]

Title of the book. Just with one layer of metaphor removed. Yeah. She has cultivated these pressures that exist, the sort of devil's advocate ideas. She's the opposition. These are things that exist within her sisterhood now, and they are good. Those are good pressures for keeping people in line and making sure that the tensions that exist are productive and helpful for the Bene Gesserit and eliminating those that aren't. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah. And you know what comes to mind for me? You made that comment earlier about Taraza just wanting to be Leto too. Yeah, but consider the parallels we're already seeing. She comes in and is doing something deeply unpopular in order to save the Bene Gesserit from themselves, from their own stagnation and their own status quo.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

She comes in, shakes things up, does something deeply unpopular, causes division. Some people don't like this. Some people like Quotag are trying to rebel. You know, like, you could draw a straight line between Shuang Yu and QTech. Quotag and the rebels.

[Leo]

Quotag is so much cooler than Shuang Yu.

[Abu]

So much cooler.

[Leo]

Fought wolves with wolves.

[Abu]

Could Shuang you fight wolves with wolves? I think.

[Leo]

No. No. I think she'd probably just kill him with her hands.

[Abu]

Yeah. But I think there are quite a few parallels between Taraza and Later, too, when you think about what she is doing to the Bene Gesserit as a microcosm for what Leto II did to all of humanity.

[Leo]

Yes. 100%.

[Abu]

And I think it's interesting to think of her decisions in that way and to kind of see it in that light. Your comments about Leto II just made me think of that.

[Leo]

Not to mention all of her frustrations in this chapter is her attempting to do what Leto II did without the information that he had and going, fuck, this is hard. Right. What the hell.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I get the impression she would. I don't know. I can't recall if we get specific insight about how she specifically feels about Leto, too, but deeply sympathetic, I'm sure, to him being the one in charge of all of humanity for 3,000 years.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

She would, more than almost anyone else in the universe, be like, oh, yeah, that sucks.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Yeah. That's a sacrifice for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Even think of, like, how painful it is for Leto to have to sacrifice Atreides generation after generation and kill off people.

[Leo]

Yeah. And, oh, Drade.

[Abu]

Dar and Tar.

[Leo]

Dar and Tar.

[Abu]

It's a necessary thing in order to save the larger institution of the Bene Gesserit. Doesn't mean it's not painful.

[Leo]

Yeah. He's loved every one of his companions, loved everyone. And although Taraza, I'm sure, would be like, well, I don't love anyone. I think we see the difficulties of some of these decisions that she's making.

[Abu]

For sure.

[Leo]

I don't think they'd be as hard if they were purely emotionless. I'm starting to feel like, based on our conversation and based on how this chapter felt.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I think her. I'm purely emotionless. I'll kill odraid if I need to. I think some of that is how she thinks she thinks about it, but it's not how she actually thinks about it.

[Abu]

Yeah. Certainly she's still human at the end of the day. You know, some of it does feel like an act that she's trying to sell herself on.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This is the leader I should be.

[Leo]

Isn't that the thesis of The Bene Gesserit. They're like, we don't love. And it's like, do you not. I think based on what I've read in this book, you all love and it's just you're all traumatized by forcing yourselves out of.

[Abu]

You don't listen to music. How absurd is that, Lucilla? Being like, we don't listen to music.

[Leo]

Because stupid, dumb, ridiculous. Ridiculous.

[Abu]

Okay, so let's. This has been super fascinating. Let's try and put a bow on this takeaway. Let's land this plane. Because I think this kind of comes full circle back to the original question that you had posited at the top. Is this type of leadership style required in order to effectively run an organization like the Bene Gesserit? Do you have to be cold and detached from your employees, from your colleagues in order to be an effective leader? I think that's an interesting question that applies not just to Terraza in this specific situation, but also to the real world as well. What do you think?

[Leo]

Yeah, I think it's hard to say outside of Dune, because these concepts are so. They just don't exist. Right. Like organizations that span tens of thousands of years with like a singular continuity. What is it like to lead that? I don't know. I don't know. I would like to think that people like Teg, whose loyalty is upward and downward. Right. He is loyal to Patrin as much as he is loyal to Taraza. People like Teg, I would love to think that they are rewarded and they are the sort of people who could lead whole galaxies and it be a totally fine thing. But the only group or the only thing that was at all comparable to the Bene Gesserit was Leto, who was a cold, calculating tyrant, manipulative, ultimately controlling. And although we know he loved very deeply, it was torture to love because he just had to make these really cold, calculating decisions over and over and over again. Sending his fish speakers to go kill that room of people. Single handedly killing dozens of Duncans. It's like. It's brutal. So part of me thinks maybe the thesis here is yes, you kind of have to be. You have to be ultimately pragmatic. You have to be ultimately able to make those difficult decisions. To have an organization that far reaching at the scale of the sisterhood. Yeah, I think you probably need to have that leader who can make decisions without considering their own sensitivities and move those chess pieces without being too emotionally involved. But I don't know. I think I'd like to think the universe would allow someone like Tag to be in that position. What about you? What do you think?

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm a little bit more sure about it. I think most definitely you do have to be this kind of manager if the goal and the ultimate loyalty is to the institution. I think Taraza, in this chapter even is showing us that she knows what most people in modern day upper management or executive decisions realize. You cannot be friends with the people whose livelihoods you control. That's just a dynamic that doesn't work because the power differential is too much. There's a weird power dynamic there. You can't be friendly with people's whose paychecks you're signing. And if you are, if you do cross that line, it can cloud your own judgment when it comes time to make larger, more difficult decisions that are ideally in the best interest of the organization. Because as the leader in Taraza's position, specifically, not as like a middle manager in Taraza's position. Top of the top Mother Superior, your first loyalty is to the institution. And we in fact read that quote earlier today in the summaries where it explained explicitly that the Mother Superior's main job was to make sure the Bene Gesserit continued as a sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so I think this type of detached management is necessary at that level, regardless of the scale of the institution. Now, of course, that is not permission to treat your colleagues or your employees like an asshole. Right. There is always a humane way of going about even the most difficult of decisions. You know, there is a more humane way of doing something like layoffs. There is a more humane way of doing something like firing someone. You're doing it because presumably it is in the best interests of the institution. Doesn't mean you have to be so cold and so detached that you lose the humanity of it. But I think ultimately, in order for the institution to survive, you as someone in Taraza's position at the tippy top, your loyalty is to the institution and not to the people. And so you have to manage like this in order to be, quote, unquote, good at your job, because your job is to keep the institution alive. If your job was to keep people happy, that's a different situation.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

And that's a different management style. But I think that is like sort of a cold reality. And we see it all the time in like our current capitalist society. Like, I'm not out here trying to defend any CEOs, because half the time they are not making any decisions for the institution. They're making Decisions for their own pockets and for their fellow C suite so they can keep cashing in big checks. But ultimately, like, at some point, leaders do have to make calls that are deeply unpopular and deeply hurtful, even to the people that rely on them, because it is the only way to ensure a future. It's kind of the trolley problem in that sense. It's kind of like, do I sacrifice, like, a dozen people now so that the next 10,000 that rely on this institution still have an institution to rely on? And that's a difficult place to be in. You know, it's almost an inhuman place to be in. We are naturally inclined as humans to form relationships and feel our emotions and make decisions based on how we feel about things.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think it is uniquely Bene Gesserit in that they can detach in this way and that Taraza could, if she needed to kill someone that she clearly loves, like Odrade.

[Leo]

The analogy of the CEO is interesting, I think. I agree. But there's also that element of, like, when we talk about being cold and detached as a necessity. Cold, detached management style as a necessity. You know, you have to make calculated decisions, but do you have to keep everyone at arm's length? Or could a. Is it a matter of. Is it a sign of weakness? Is it a sign of Taraza's weakness that she can't have friends but still make cold, calculating decisions? Could she actually be honest with Odrade and still say, hey, oh, Draid, by the way, I hope you understand, if X, Y and Z happens, we'll have to have you killed? She chooses not to. She's decided she can't, I guess. But I think the question I still haven't answered for myself is if you're the CEO and you have to lay off 10% of your people, there's a cold, detached way of doing that, but then there's the more personable, interpersonal way of doing it, too. And I don't know that that necessity I've locked in on, but, yeah, it's all super interesting.

[Abu]

Yeah. Well, I think there's a distinction. To answer your question, I don't think Taraza could be that open and honest with Odrade because it would throw plans out of whack. If O'Draid is now operating under the assumption that if I do things this way, I could die, her behavior is going to change. Right. Like, it's all this, like, subtle planning. And I don't think Taraza, as the leader and as the mastermind of this plan, can be that openly honest with Odrade and certainly can't be like, I might have to kill you. Of course, human instinct, regardless of how well trained the Bene Gesserit might be to control their emotions, Odraid's instinct will be, I gotta do things to not get killed here. And that changes how she operates entirely, which potentially throws off Taraza's plan because she needs Odraid to act a certain way and to tap into certain talents and be open to heretical ideas. Maybe Odrade would stop thinking heretical thoughts if she thought it meant a knife in her back.

[Leo]

Yeah, but there's no way of knowing that that's how she would react. Unless you are Leto too. Unless you're Leto too and you say, I know that revealing this information to so and so is going to change the way they behave in this specific way. You're right. If Taraza knew for sure that revealing X, Y and Z to a Drade would change Odrade's behavior and would throw off the planet, then of course she can't. But I don't know that that even necessitates still her being cold and detached. That just means she can't reveal that information because that's going to fuck up the chess game. There's. Yeah, there's something there. I think that's where my hesitation comes from, is that I think if we're talking about her internal monologue of being like, oh, I can dispose of Odrade at any time because I don't give a shit about her because I'm being cold and calculating, hahaha. I think that is, that is a front that she need not assume. I think she could be like, oh, really unfortunate that I'd have to get rid of this person I really care about. I think she could think that way and she has told herself that she needs to be this cold, calculating person. Even though she could still make the hard decisions to move the chess game forward to protect the Bene Gesserit, blah blah blah, she could still do all of that. Even if she admitted to herself that oh, Draid is important to her. You know, if she is again, I don't think we've gotten confirmation that that is or isn't one way or the other. Yeah, but I think that's where it's like, yeah, maybe it's like the most important thing is that they're able to make decisions and play the chess game with the pure data in mind without the personal feelings of personal involvement. You have to make those decisions. That's for sure true. Now, beyond that, how you handle it, how involved you are, how emotional you are, as long as you're still making those decisions based on the raw data, you're doing what's right moving forward. Sure. Then it's like you can kind of be however you want. I think Teg would probably also. He lets Patrin die because he knows that has to happen. But Teg is still someone who's ultimately loyal to Patrin.

[Abu]

Yeah. I mean, I think that taints the, it feels like a natural human response to, to defend yourself against the emotional harm. Right. Like, if you're like, I have to. I know I have to make this difficult decision coming up. I'm not going to get emotionally invested because it'll hurt more if I admit to myself how much I care. So that, to me, almost feels like a, a normal human reaction. To try and convince yourself that you don't care, or try and convince yourself that, like, actually, I'm cold and detached anyway, I'm a bad bitch. I don't care. Slice and dice. I'll kill anyone.

[Leo]

She listens to formation every morning. You know, she's like, yeah, we rule the world. We're fine.

[Abu]

So, yeah, there's a lot of nuance here, and I don't disagree with what you're saying. I think there is a level where, you know, all the Bene Gesserit need therapy and need to talk about their feelings and admit that they feel a certain way about things. So I don't disagree with what you're saying. I, I, I just read a lot of Taraza in this chapter as doing what she feels is necessary in a very difficult position and protecting herself from too much emotional attachment or at least telling yourself that so that she doesn't have to deal with the baggage that comes with that. You know, it's harder to lay off or kill someone. That works for you if you admit to yourself that you deeply loved them. And we see that even with the Tag example. Right. He Tag realizes that Patrick has sacrificed himself and he's, like, brought to tears and is, like, spends the whole chapter sad about it. Sure. And I think, like, Taraza is trying to protect herself from some of that fallout, from making a tough decision, which I think all of us do to some extent. You know, all of us have to justify difficult moments to ourselves internally as well, for sure. And part of that, I think, is just dealing with that kind of trauma, the trauma that comes with that sort of tough decision in life.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's fascinating.

[Leo]

I'd really like to not make any tough decisions ever again.

[Abu]

For real.

[Leo]

That's hard sometimes.

[Abu]

For real. Fascinating stuff.

[Leo]

Regardless, and I think it'll be interesting to continue to read and to look at how Taraza's acting and behaving and to see if do her thoughts align with her actions and vice versa, or is she another person who's sort of like attempting to sell herself an idea and is she succeeding or is she kind of bullshitting herself? And, you know, that'll be. It'll be very interesting to see for sure moving forward.

[Abu]

Well, that's our big chunky takeaway from today. Clearly we had a lot of thoughts about that and it has sparked some interesting conversation. Of course, we'd love to hear from you as well. So please reach out to us Discord email. We'd love your thoughts as well as you read along with us. Let's take another quick break before we wrap up today's episode with two absolutely scrumptiddly umptious morsels.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Coming up in just a minute.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

We're cutting the price of mint unlimited.

[Leo]

From $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees, extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes.

[Abu]

Detail.

[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're hungry. Let's talk about our spice morsels today. And our first spice morsel today is hetairas. Heteros. Hetairas. Hetaras. Hetatoras.

[Abu]

All of the above.

[Leo]

All of the above. E. All of the above. In today's reading, Odrade says to waff you thought you had better allies in the people from the scattering, those honored matres and other hetairas of that ilk. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

By the way, love the word ilk. Ilk is just such a good word.

[Abu]

Yeah, ilk is a fun word. We don't say it enough, I think.

[Leo]

We don't, you know, weird words.

[Abu]

We gotta drop skibidi and replace it with ilk.

[Leo]

Demure. Demure. Mindful. Skibidi. Ilk. Yes. Now, we don't know about you folks, but our Greek little rusty.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So we decided to look up hetara and Just kind of see what that means in this context.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Right. Hetera is defined by Britannica as a woman or man who was, quote, one of a class of professional, independent courtesans of ancient Greece who, besides developing physical beauty, cultivated their minds and talents to a degree far beyond that allowed to the average Attic woman. End quote. What? What is an Attic woman?

[Abu]

Like the region of Greece and its surrounding islands. Yeah.

[Leo]

Ah. Oh, okay. Sweet. So that's what that means, dear listener. And. Yeah. So these ancient Greek hetaira, hetairai, usually lived alone or in small groups of two or three and lived quite comfortable and elevated lives compared to married women.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, they were often foreigners or slaves, and married men would openly visit their homes. This was a kind of no shame activity. Oh, you're hanging out with the sexy, super educated, artsy person. Hell, yeah. More power to you.

[Abu]

Right. In Greek society, there was, like, no shame.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In doing this. Like, nobody looked down at you. This wasn't, like, considered cheating on your wife or anything. That's a very modern concept. From my research, it was clear that, like, marriage in Greek society was almost never about love. Mostly political, mostly based on class and other factors. Wealth.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so, like, being married to your wife was practically just like a contract you signed and had nothing to do with, like, who you were actually sleeping with. And so a lot of married men would just, like, openly go to these hettera houses to spend time with the. With these hetairas.

[Leo]

With the courtesans. Yeah. I also saw comparisons to the, like, modern idea of a geisha. Right. Someone who's a musician and a poet and could compose haikus. And you're like, whoa, you're so talented. You're so skilled. And not always, at least from what I was seeing, not always all about the sex. It's also about the companionship and the, you know, again, being entertained.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Whatever that means.

[Abu]

Yeah. Folks, intimacy is about so much more than butts and other things.

[Leo]

Butts and other things. That's what we specialize here at this hetero house. And yeah. Sometimes you think intimacy is four syllables. Sometimes intimacy is five syllables, seven syllables, and then five again. That's a haiku, folks. Anyway, so Odrade throwing this as, like, an insult kind of. It sort of feels like she intended it to be they are sex workers or kind of that kind of demeaning. Looking down on that. But given the context of the word, that doesn't really land perfectly. There are a number of times when odrade or tarasa will refer to the honored Matres as those whores from the scattering. And obviously that comes off a bit crass to our modern sensibilities. But also, if you consider how each group treats sex, the derogatory term can make some sense. Right. Like the Bene Gesserit see sex as a way of imprinting, as a way of controlling breeding and gathering genetic data, and as subtle manipulation. Whereas the honored Matre are literally using sex as a blunt instrument of subjugation. They are defeating planets with their sexual prowess, which is pretty wild. Now, you could argue that that is a pretty thin distinction. We really tomato tomato on this.

[Abu]

Yeah, for real.

[Leo]

But clearly it's enough of a philosophical divide, or at least Odrade and Taraza are treating it as enough of a philosophical divide that at least right now it seems like they're. They're really treating it as like this venomous distaste. Like, ugh, they're just that. Anyway, so that is our first morsel. The hetteras of the scattering, the terror Titteras.

[Abu]

That's right, our second morsel today. Yeah, it's a banquet, folks. Is a museum display of a banquet. This is super interesting. In today's reading we get this epigraph quote. The long table on the right is set for a banquet of roast desert hare in sauce sapita. The other dishes, clockwise to the right from the far end of the table are aploma, Syrian chukka under glass, coffee with melange. Note the hog crest of the Atreides on the urn, potato. I don't know how to say that word. Pote. And in balut crystal bottles, sparkling Caladan wine. Note the ancient poison detector concealed in the chandelier.

[Leo]

That a snooper. It's a snooper.

[Abu]

That's a snooper. Super fun to get this epigraph here for the sharp eyed and sharp eared listeners. That might sound familiar because that is practically word for word lifted from the banquet scene in Dune, as in the first book five books ago. That is a exact description of the Atreides banquet scene.

[Leo]

Yeah, I just wanted to point out. So of course, this is Frank referencing the first book that he wrote.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And you go, okay, author referencing his first book. Sure. But as always, I would like to be able to account for these things in universe. Right. Without like defaulting to this is just the author being cheeky. So the idea that the description of the banquet scene that happened in that first Dune book, at that dinner scene, the description is on the museum plaque on the museum description plaque is to the detail accurate, right?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

5,000 years later. What are the fucking chances we get shit wrong about 200 years ago in museums today, let alone 5,000 years, describing exactly each dish in its order on the table and all of that. I think here's my tinfoil hat theory. Almost certainly. If that is what the plaque in this museum read at Daraspalat, that means that someone, the person who wrote the description or provided the written description, has a source with other memory. That's my theory. Yeah, that makes sense because how else do you fucking account for every dish is right. Every. The order of them. Everything is exactly. I'm like, hell, yeah. That means that I think the Bene Gesserit or someone was just being cheeky. They had other memory. Someone at that dinner party that night has a direct descendant.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Who's involved in the Daris Balat museum curation.

[Abu]

Or Leto wrote about it in his journals because he would have access to that banquet scene. And maybe the source is Leto's journals as well, which again to your point, is a direct line of other memory connection from the banquet scene to modern day.

[Leo]

I don't think I've told you about this meal. That was really good.

[Abu]

I think about it.

[Leo]

Let me describe it in tiny detail.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Everyone's like, whoa, thanks.

[Abu]

Yeah, totally. That's a great point. You're absolutely right. We get facts wrong about things that are only a century or two ago. And to get the exact details correct for something from 5,000 years ago. Yeah, you gotta have a strong source for sure. But I hope you're hungry, folks. Let's talk about some of this food. Some of these words are interesting and some of them don't mean anything, but let's talk about it. Roast desert hare in Saucepita is the first dish that is described to us. If we break that down, Roast hare is pretty self explanatory. And the sauce, I looked up the word sapita in a number of places and the only thing that sort of makes sense, there is like a baseball player named Zapita, which made this incredibly difficult.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The only thing that made sense is there is a small municipality in Spain called Sapita. And so maybe this is just sort of a throwaway reference to. To Sapita, Spain. And sauce from that location or inspired from that old Terra location.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

The next dish, we're told is aploma Syrian. I simply could not find anything for the word aplomage. But Syrian in the book is S I R I A N. And it's fun to think that maybe that is just a natural evolution of Syrian as in like the modern day country of Syria. S Y R I A N. So maybe this is some sort of evolution of a far future Syrian dish. Which sounds yummy because Syrian food is fucking fire.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed.

[Abu]

The next dish is more interesting. We have a bit more details on it. Chukka under glass, we're told. Now, if you look in the Dune encyclopedia, in the entry on Fremen cooking, we actually get a definition for chukka. Meat was often roasted. Desert hare and chukka, a fowl, were the most common. Or a savory stew might be made of meat and roots. End quote. So there we go. Chukka is a fowl. And if you look at what under glass means, that basically just means that it was served on a plate with a glass dome on top of it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like, you might see it like a pastry shop, like pastries with little glass domes on top. Or you see this at Starbucks.

[Leo]

And even going back to that first dune reference of this banquet, there's a mention of Leto telling the servants to, like, reveal the things. And so definitely there was a feeling of a lot of these things are covered either by something like a metal, you know, pot, or like a glass dome or something.

[Abu]

Yeah, for sure. The next dish that's listed here in this description is Pat a toi, you said. Is that the way to say it?

[Leo]

Maybe, yeah. Pat a wee. Because it's literally the spelling was it's French. So it's like pat au feu. Pat oui, Pat oe. Right, Something like that. Yeah.

[Abu]

Right, Pot of something.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Abu]

And it's fun to maybe like, assume that this perhaps loosely inspired by the French dish pot au foie. You would know better than me. Pot au feu. Pot au feu, which means pot on the fire and is actually the national dish of France. This is typically a stew that's composed of meats mixed with carrots and potatoes and various other vegetables, depending on your specific recipe. But perhaps on the Atreides table, we have something very similar to the national dish of France. Some sort of stew.

[Leo]

Hell, yeah. French food surviving until 10,191 AG.

[Abu]

That's right. And to wrap up the spice morsel, of course, there's a couple of other things listed here that we've talked about before on the show. Spice coffee, sparkling Caladan wine. And then, as you called out earlier, that reference to what we know was very likely a poison snooper at the table as well. All of those things we've chattered about before, but fun to sort of break down the dining table here of the Atreides. Based on this description and based on a couple of little assumptions here, it would be fun. I personally would definitely buy a Dune cookbook if someone were to take dishes inspired by Dune and, you know, make some, like, leaps of assumptions here to make yummy things. I would definitely try and cook chukka under glass.

[Leo]

Same.

[Abu]

Or try and make a plumage Syrian if there was a recipe book for it. So for any entrepreneurs out there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Who love to cook, there's an idea for you. A freebie.

[Leo]

Every recipe has a handful of sand in it. Oh, God. Ew. This one too. Listen, sand. It's rough, it's coarse.

[Abu]

Good time.

[Leo]

Well, those are our morsels. And that's our episode.

[Abu]

That's it.

[Leo]

So, dear listener, we have some homework for you. As always, for the next episode. Make sure that you've read through chapter 27. What a good one. Which ends with the sentence quote, no need for him to be reckless. What you'll have to read to find out. So, yeah, that's chapter 27. Or if your book is different than us, the one that ends on that sentence.

[Abu]

That's right. And before we let you go, as always, a couple of quick reminders here at the end on how to support this show.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And how to keep in touch with us. The two best ways to support this show is to become a patron or get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. If you're interested, those links will be in the show notes below. Please go check them out and help us keep this show running.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as always, we love to hear from you. So send us an email. Gomjabbarpodcastmail.com is the place. That's what you type into the little thing and you say hit subject and send. We want to hear your thoughts and questions about the reading. We want to see pictures of your cute pets, if you've got them. And other thoughts about Dune. Questions, comments, concerns, feedback about the show. Anything? Anything. Gomjabarpodcastmail.com that's it. And that's it, folks. So how quickly do you think Waff is going to offer Odrade feet picks? Like, do you think this is going to be something that happens much later in their conversation? Do you think he's like, really right on the edge of it? Like darts? Step one, step two, take off the socks, let her see the goods.

[Abu]

No, I like to think it's a deeply held secret. Oh, like you take your feet to the grave in Tleilaxu culture, most of.

[Leo]

Us take our feet to the grave, as it turns out.

[Abu]

But, yes, socks at all times. You cover up. Don't even let an ankle slip, okay?

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh. You're going to be misconstrued for a hetara if you show people your ankles.

[Abu]

That's right. No, I think Waff would rather go to his death than reveal his sexy, luscious feet, even to a fellow believer like Odrade.

[Leo]

So just being part of the kell, you don't get the feet picks?

[Abu]

No, I don't think so. I think that's rare. I think you save the feet pic for a lover.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

And for God.

[Leo]

Leto's like, I don't want them. Please stop. Don't send.

[Abu]

Stop sending me unsolicited Dleilax feet pics.

[Leo]

God damn it. I hate them so much. People are like, you hate them because of X, Y and Z. And he's like, sure, right? Yeah, that's. That's the reason. Same as you. Nothing specific to me being their God.

[Abu]

His phone is always popping off. Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Leo]

God damn it. More feet pics.

[Abu]

Can't even block them fast enough, you know? Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram. We're also on TikTok at. Com. Jabar Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.