Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 9)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Episode Summary: Book Club: Heretics of Dune (Part 9)
Host: Lore Party Media (Abu and Leo)
Release Date: March 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo delve into the ninth installment of their Heretics of Dune book club series. Aimed at both longtime fans and newcomers to the Dune universe, Abu and Leo provide a comprehensive analysis of the latest chapters, exploring intricate plot developments, character dynamics, and underlying themes. As always, the discussion is enriched with notable quotes from the book, complete with timestamps for easy reference.

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Chapter Summaries

Chapter 25: A Desert Hike and Hidden Agendas

The episode begins with Abu and Leo summarizing Chapter 25, where Odrade, Shiana, and Waf embark on a perilous desert excursion. This outing serves multiple strategic purposes:

1. Temporal Distraction: As Abu notes, "This hike is intended to buy some time as the sisterhood frantically continues to search for Duncan and Tag, who are still missing in action" (05:09).
2. Witnessing Shiana's Powers: Leo highlights the significance of Odrade observing Shiana's mysterious abilities firsthand, stating, "She has guessed that Shiana's power is a language of sorts. But is it really?" (05:38).
3. Gathering Intelligence on the Bene Tleilaxu: The trio aims to uncover deeper insights into the Bene Tleilaxu, particularly their Zen Sunni beliefs, which are pivotal for the Bene Gesserit’s strategic maneuvers (05:59).

A pivotal moment occurs when Odrade experiences a memory warning, reflecting on historical events tied to Duncan Idaho and Leto II, underscoring the superstitions within the Bene Gesserit about the dangers of sandworms (06:57).

Chapter 26: Duncan's Awakening and Lucilla’s Schemes

Moving to Chapter 26, the focus shifts to Duncan Idaho, Miles Teg, and Lucilla in the Harkonnen No-Globe:

• Duncan's Enhanced Training: Abu points out Duncan’s self-guided prowess, "He has surpassed his teacher in many ways" (14:07).
• Lucilla’s Persistent Imprinting: Despite Lucilla's continuous efforts to imprint and seduce Duncan, he adeptly resists, engaging in a cat-and-mouse dynamic that Abu describes as, "He's playing the gig is and is able to avoid it" (14:25).
• Miles Teg’s Reputation: The discussion highlights Teg’s legendary status, with Abu reminiscing, "And he’s like Taylor Swift and then just below her, it's Jesus" (17:00).

A critical plot twist emerges when Duncan senses tampering by the Tleilaxu, indicating potential threats to their plans, as Abu elaborates, "If something goes wrong and something is awakened within him that sways plans toward the Tleilaxu direction, that could really fuck up Taraza's plans here" (21:21).

Chapter 27: Taraza’s Turmoil and Sleepless Nights

Chapter 27 centers on Taraza, the Bene Gesserit leader, grappling with insomnia and strategic pressures:

• Institutional Burdens: Abu and Leo discuss Taraza’s internal conflicts and relentless pursuit to decode her sisterhood’s enigmatic plans.
• Sister Baram’s Story: A poignant narrative about Sister Baram, a failed Reverend Mother burdened by genetic defects, underscores the Bene Gesserit’s ruthless eugenics practices. Abu critiques, "The Bene Gesserit are acting like they have all the answers... why, because this is how we do things" (42:33).
• Taraza's Realizations: As Taraza uncovers unsettling truths about her sisterhood's methods, Abu emphasizes the broader implications on Bene Gesserit's institutional ethics and blind spots (77:03).

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Key Takeaways

1. Shiana's Dance and Bene Gesserit World-Building

One of the standout moments discussed is Shiana’s dance, where she summons a sandworm—an unprecedented display of power. Abu and Leo explore how this event reveals deeper layers of the Dune universe:

• Language and Control: Odrade’s observation that Shiana commands the worm through a "pulse of hidden language between child and monster" (57:08) illustrates the Bene Gesserit’s ongoing struggle to master non-verbal communication and control over these formidable creatures.
• Cultural Perspectives: Leo remarks on how Frank Herbert reinvigorates the mythological status of sandworms from the Bene Gesserit’s perspective, contrasting it with the Fremen’s more pragmatic view (54:18).

The discussion draws parallels to movies like Arrival, highlighting the complexity of deciphering alien communication and the Bene Gesserit's meticulous approach to gaining knowledge.

2. Sister Baram and Bene Gesserit Eugenics

Abu raises critical points about Sister Baram, a character whose tragic fate underscores the Bene Gesserit's eugenics-driven policies:

• Institutional Shortcomings: Abu argues that the Bene Gesserit’s approach to genetic defects, as seen with Sister Baram, reveals a dangerous institutional blindness to neurodiversity and other human variations (72:35).
• Ethical Implications: The hosts discuss how the Bene Gesserit’s selective breeding and exclusionary practices limit their understanding and adaptability, ultimately hindering their strategic goals (75:21).
• Historical Context: Referring to Alia from Children of Dune, Abu and Leo highlight how the sisterhood’s rigid doctrines lead to tragic outcomes when faced with unexpected variables (76:57).

This segment serves as a critical examination of the Bene Gesserit’s ethical boundaries and the potential consequences of their relentless pursuit of genetic perfection.

3. Leadership Secrets and The Atreides Manifesto

The hosts delve into the Bene Gesserit’s manipulation tactics, using the concept of "something more" to control and influence societies:

• Calculated Fulfillment: Abu and Leo analyze an epigraph that underscores the Bene Gesserit’s strategy to define and shape deeper human desires, facilitating their control over populations (88:00).
• Missionaria Protectiva: They discuss how the Bene Gesserit plant myths and prophecies across the galaxy to create favorable conditions for their agendas, such as the belief in a coming messiah aligned with their objectives (89:54).
• Atreides Manifesto: The summary touches on a draft manifest advocating for dynamic evolution over static absolutism, reflecting the themes of adaptation and resistance against rigid institutional control (97:56).

This takeaway emphasizes the sophisticated psychological and sociopolitical strategies employed by the Bene Gesserit to maintain their influence and achieve their long-term goals.

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Conclusion

Abu and Leo wrap up the episode by highlighting the contrasting perspectives on the pacing of Heretics of Dune. While Abu expresses frustration with what he perceives as slow-moving and repetitive sections, Leo defends the deliberate pacing as a means to build tension and anticipation (38:31). This dynamic exchange underscores the diverse interpretations and personal connections listeners may form with the intricate narrative of the Dune saga.

As the episode concludes, Abu and Leo invite listeners to support the podcast through Patreon and merchandise purchases, encouraging active engagement and community participation.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Leo: "Shuang Yu left a message that only we might read in the wear marks on the furniture." (00:00)
• Abu: "If a worm came now with its encapsulated pearl of the tyrant's forever dreaming memory, would that memory be dangerous?" (07:55)
• Leo: "The Leadership secrets of the Bene Gesserit... Most people only react unconsciously to such hidden forces." (88:01)
• Abu: "The universe has moved beyond you." (97:56)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast offers a rich and engaging exploration of Heretics of Dune, balancing detailed plot summaries with in-depth thematic analysis. Abu and Leo’s insightful discussions provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the complex interplay between characters and institutions within the Dune universe, making it an invaluable resource for fans seeking to unravel the intricate lore of Frank Herbert’s creation.

For those yet to embark on this journey, the podcast serves as an excellent guide, illuminating the multifaceted dimensions of Dune’s expansive narrative.

Transcript

[Leo]

Shuang Yu left a message that only we might read in the wear marks on the furniture. Yes, Mother Superior.

[Abu]

Then she knew she would be attacked and had time to leave a message. I saw your earlier report on the devastation of the attack.

[Leo]

It was quick and totally overpowering. The attackers did not try to take captives.

[Abu]

What did she say?

[Leo]

She said to listen to Gom Jabbar and rate them 5 stars. Gotta be honest, I'm not sure. What gam is that the needle. Listen to the needle. I'm confused.

[Abu]

Incredible. Chuang Yu, our biggest fan. Not a Kwisatz Haderach level patron, though. She's afraid of Kwisatz.

[Leo]

She's a Fremen name. Yeah, but ironically.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name's Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, we are back once again reading Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

Yes, we are.

[Abu]

Another set of chapters, another episode.

[Leo]

Very exciting because these are some great chapters, folks. In particular, these are some great chapters. Is it true? Who's to say?

[Abu]

You'll have to listen to find out.

[Leo]

Now, as always, let's take care of our housekeeping before we get into today's reading. As usual, today's episode will contain no spoilers beyond the pages and books we've covered thus far. So if you are up to date on. On your Gom Jabbar listening, you're safe to listen.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, at the top of the show, a huge shout out to our Kwisazz Haderach level patrons. Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Roman Cabalo, Jonathan Lambert, and CR Spruit.

[Leo]

Folks, if we had given a guard an 11am Wake up call, we said, listen, do not disturb us no matter what.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

11:00Am we're going to get a full like 11 hours of sleep or something.

[Abu]

Strict orders.

[Leo]

Strict orders. And we heard you five whispering in the hallway. We were like, I can't place those five whispering voices. But as soon as we suspect it's you, we'd let you in.

[Abu]

Let them in.

[Leo]

We'd say, come on in, give us your report. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about whatever you found.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Special privileges, folks.

[Leo]

Indeed. It's part of the Kwisatz Haderach level. You get past the night guard if you're a Kwisatz Haderach patron.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

But of course, Our thank you extends to all of our patrons. Anyone who supports through patreon.com makes what we do possible. Seriously, we could not do it without you. That is not hyperbole. That is a fact.

[Abu]

It's true. Okay, housekeeping, out of the way. Here's the game plan for this book club episode. We will begin with a summary of today's three chapters, and then we'll dive deeper into a couple of takeaways. And finally, we're gonna wrap up with a pair of yummy and delicious spice morsels. So before we jump into today's reading, let's take a quick break. But buckle up, folks. When we come back. We're getting into it.

[Leo]

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[Abu]

So if you're into growing your business.

[Leo]

Get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you're ready. We got more chapters of Heretics of Dune kicking off today's reading with chapter 25. Our first chapter today puts us with Odrade, Shiana and Waf. What a trio of people out in the desert on a little hike, little nature excursion where they are going to be trying not to die during a new demonstration of Shiana's powers. Naturally, like any bene gesserit 5D chess move, this little hike, this little outing aims to accomplish a few different things.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

First, this hike is intended to buy some time as the sisterhood frantically continues to search for Duncan and Tag, who are still missing in action.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. We misplaced Duncan and also Teg. Oh, shit.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Oh, no.

[Abu]

Gotta stall.

[Leo]

We have to stall. Second, this outing is giving oh Jade an opportunity to witness Shiana's mysterious powers firsthand.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

She has guessed that Shiana's power is a language of sorts. But is it really? This is the opportunity to find out, see it up close and personal. And third, the Bene Gesserit has recently learned a ton of new junk about the Benny Toileks. Taraza's meeting with Waf that basically hinted at his Zen Sunni beliefs was the beginning. And now that O'Draid has confirmed that WAF has all of these in Sunni beliefs, this is a chance to learn more than they ever have before about the Benny Tleilax witnessing a master of masters in his people's holy land. Once in a thousand lifetimes. Opportunity.

[Abu]

Yeah. For real.

[Leo]

Also, in a universe like Dune, where basically warfare has become an information battle of who knows what about whom, this is a chance to get, like, the ultimate upper hand and end the competition, if you want to call it that. Forever. It's really.

[Abu]

Yeah. Truly.

[Leo]

Now atop a dune, O'Drade is overcome with an other memory warning. And she's like, ah, not now. Oh, no, I was busy. I was busy observing Wof and talking to Shiana. This actually kind of reminded me of a dab, almost.

[Abu]

Yeah. I was just going to say they.

[Leo]

Don'T call it Adob, but it's like the memory that puts itself forward nevertheless. She recognizes the landscape. They are near Daras Balat, but they are looking out at where the bridge collapsed into what was at the time Duncan Idaho river, where Leto to died and became the divided God. Huge.

[Abu]

Huge.

[Leo]

They're in this, like, historic place. Now we learn that some among the Bene Gesserit believe that the sand worm 2.0 that carries the pearl of Leto's consciousness will become a danger of some sort if it encounters the place of Leto's death. Which kind of, to me, shows how little the Bene Gesserit really know about the tyrant. Like, this is straight up superstition. They're like, this is superstition.

[Abu]

Yeah. What is he based off of?

[Leo]

He'll come back. Why do you think that?

[Abu]

Right. Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice. Like it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What are you basing any of this off of?

[Leo]

Yeah, here's the quote. If a worm came now with its encapsulated pearl of the tyrant's forever dreaming memory, would that memory be dangerous? So Taraza's opposition in the Sisterhood argued, he will awaken. End quote. Which, like. Yeah. Based on what? You're just afraid. They're so afraid.

[Abu]

Yeah. Fascinating.

[Leo]

I also really appreciated this moment. Quote, none of the analyses Odrade had studied gave a sure explanation of what had driven one human being to make himself into a symbiote with that original worm of Arrakis. What went through his mind in the millennia of that awful transformation. End quote. And I bring that up because we saw in that epigraph with Gauss undoubted how, like, historians don't exactly take Leto's words at face value. Leto's like, I became the worm in order to save humanity. Golden Path. And people are like, yeah, sure, but maybe it's really cool to be a worm, and maybe that's why he did it. You know, people are skeptical about his words that he left in his journals at Darius Balat. And the Bene Gesserit, apparently are as well. Like, I didn't expect this. Honestly, I thought the Bene Gesserit would see through the truth of a lot of what he said. But it seems like their superstition, their fear, maybe the mark that Paul and losing control of Paul left on the Bene Gesserit impedes their ability to just take Leto's word for what he's saying. They're like, no, there's no way we trust this one. Like, maybe just do, because maybe he's just telling the truth. But it's fine. Just interesting to me that the Bene Gesserit analyses are as cautious to take Leto's words as the laypeople. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah. And it's interesting to examine it through Frank's themes as well. This idea that we will never know the truth of history because words are incapable of capturing it. This is an example of interpretation, is also incapable of capturing the truth of history. Leto wrote the truth down in as clear wording as possible in his journals. This is why I became a worm for 3000 plus years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And yet 1500 years later, people are like, what do we think he means by that?

[Leo]

Maybe it's all a metaphor.

[Abu]

He said, the sky is blue. What do we think he means?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I really liked this point, and I'm really glad you called this out, because it's so in line with so many of the themes we've been talking about, not only in this book, but across the whole Dune saga. This idea of what is history? How do we interpret it? How does it affect us today? How do we misinterpret it? And is it possible to even capture the essence of truth in a way that can translate to people a thousand years from now?

[Leo]

Because I also see this a lot with biblical analysis. And you're looking at these texts and going, what did people intend by saying X, Y and Z. And sometimes it's like, well, it's just parable. It's just a. It's poem. It's, you know, they have this for one's idea and then people will extrapolate in all these different directions. So you're absolutely right. Plus, with the added element of like, we know that there is an apocrypha in this universe where the priesthood has also made official declarations about what text is official, which is not canon, things like that. All of that's happening really, really cool to think about. Now. I think someone's setting up a boombox like a jukebox, and there's like five or six guys who look like they're getting ready to do something athletic. And we're all kind of backing up, concerned already.

[Abu]

I'm turning up my airpods frantically.

[Leo]

Yeah, we're on the L train and we're going from, from first Ave to Bedford. Because, folks, it's showtime. Showtime. Showtime. That's specific. And just like when Showtime's happening, there is a very real possibility that one of us will be kicked in the face. So it's about time that Shiana does her dance. She's gonna spin around the subway pole and she's gonna do hang by her feet and she's gonna kick up her baseball cap in a really cool way.

[Abu]

Yeah. And then catch it on her head.

[Leo]

And then catch it on her head.

[Abu]

It is very impressive.

[Leo]

It is very impressive. I don't mean to denigrate the. The fine folks of Showtime, but. And to be fair, I've never seen someone kicked in the face, so props to them for the practice. Have you seen someone get kicked in the face, Showtime before?

[Abu]

Never. Never. And it's certainly not never the dancer's fault. You know, if someone else is being stupid, that's on them. You deserve to get kicked in the face for sure.

[Leo]

There are actually quite a few people who deserve to be kicked in the face who didn't. And any. For anybody who's not. New York has showtime and people dance. Anyway, Shiana leads them away from the safety of their, like, rocky terrain into the sand, into the actual, like, dunes where Shai Hulud might show up and begins her dance. And we are going to talk a little bit about it in the takeaways. It's not a crazy, comprehensive analysis, but we're going to talk about some of the things that come out during that dance in the takeaways. So stay tuned for that for sure. Now the chapter ends with our small party. Fast forward. Are on the back of a worm.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

And it's carrying them off toward where Leto II died. And Odrade realizes, with a shock quote, shiana had not told her worm to go there. It moved that way of its own volition. The magnet of the tyrant's endless dream drew it back to the place where the dream began. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay, maybe I do believe in the superstitions now.

[Leo]

I was gonna say. I think I get it. I think I get it now. He's about to awaken. Yeah, we're gonna get later. Two leto. Two squared.

[Abu]

Yeah. Okay, moving on. Chapter 26. In this next chapter, we rejoin Duncan, Tag, and Lucilla in the Harkonnen no Globe where an Awakened A now awakened Duncan is training with Miles. Tag.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It's very clear right off the bat that Duncan's training is now somewhat self guided. He has surpassed his teacher in many ways. And Tag admits to himself that there really isn't much left for him to teach this young Ganasian swordmaster in a child's body.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

He's doing moves that Tag can't even recognize, or recognizes them in a different way. You know, he's. He's using old moves from three, 4,000 years ago and overpowering Teg in this way. It's very impressive. We also learn early in this chapter that Lucilla still hasn't given up on her orders to seduce the ghola. She still wants to imprint him, but Dunkey is playing hard to get. He's been playing this little cat and mouse game with her, avoiding her attempts at imprinting him or seducing him.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abu]

And she's, you know, still confident in herself. She's still backing herself. She's like, he's still a guy.

[Leo]

Yeah, he's.

[Abu]

He still has hormones. He's a young lad with hormones. And I can definitely get him to cave eventually. But Duncan knows what the gig is and is able to avoid it.

[Leo]

Yeah, I love that he describes it to Tag as like a duel. He's like, she parries. I like. Or she. She thrusts, I parry. And it's like. Yeah, I think she wants you to.

[Abu]

She wants you to do the right.

[Leo]

And she's not gonna parry. I mean, that's not at all. That's not the plan.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. He's a little arrogant here, too. Tech tries to warn him. You know, he's like, yo. You know, like, these aren't the Benny Jesuit you remember from back in the day, right. 4,000 years ago, like. Yeah, be careful, Lucilla. You know, Tegs is trying to kind of warn him. And Duncan brushes it off. He's like, I, I know these Bene Gesserit. I know what I'm doing here.

[Leo]

Which is so funny. Teg admits he doesn't have all the information, but it's like he doubts that the Bene Gesserit haven't advanced since when Duncan, quote, unquote, knew them and knew all about them. So it's really, it's kind of fun. We get a little peek into the gap in Teg's knowledge and then Duncan's super overconfident. So. See, we'll see how that works for him.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now, another theme throughout this chapter is the awakened Duncan basically struggling to, to get a pin on Miles Tag, to understand this man that who was his mentor, who is his mentor and was responsible for awakening him and is so trusted by the Bene Gesserit, but seemingly maybe isn't part of the whole plan. He's trying to figure Tag out, basically. And one of the most confounding things, of course, is that Teg is a dead ringer for Duke Leto.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Looks like him, acts like him, talks like him, is Atreides in almost every way. And when Duncan asks Teg about his reputation, Teg says, quote, reputation can be a beautiful weapon. It often spills less blood, end of quote.

[Leo]

I love that. Which is really cool. That's so cool.

[Abu]

It's so good. It's so good. And you know, they're talking about the many battles and Tag's history and the many times he has taken like bold and unexpected actions that resulted in less bloodshed or all out avoidance of a conflict that would have resulted in, you know, potentially thousands, tens of thousands dead. There was even a throwaway line in this chapter about how Tag is like one of the most famous people in this universe.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I like, that took me back a bit because I was like, in this whole universe, Miles Tagg is that famous.

[Leo]

It's him.

[Abu]

Who is this guy? You know?

[Leo]

And then it's like Taylor Swift and then just below her, it's Jesus. Because people know Swift more than Jesus, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. And again, much like Duncan, we are also learning more about Miles Tag here. And it's only becoming more and more impressive. Love Miles Tag.

[Leo]

I love the bit where they say people would give up, would just surrender if they found out Tag was commanding the other army.

[Abu]

Yeah, right.

[Leo]

You're like, man, we're going to die today. We're going to die for what we put who's the commander.

[Abu]

What did you say?

[Leo]

Tag. Tag's the commander. Okay. I think it's not too late. We can join them. We can join. And we're going to lay down your weapons. We're not dying today for our beliefs. That's pointless.

[Abu]

Pull up the draft of the treaty we had as a.

[Leo]

Does anyone have a white cloth? We're trying to surrender right away.

[Abu]

Yeah. No, completely. Tag is like the walking, talking definition of my reputation. Precedes me, clearly.

[Leo]

Yeah. He's got all.

[Abu]

And we learn about his past, these battles that he's been in. There was his honorable treatment, for example, of the rebels at Arbolo, who. Who he. He ended up recruiting.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

He recruited these rebels to his side because of the way he treated them honorably and openly. And this, of course, for any astute reader of Dune, will make you think of Leto, too.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

And his. His own conversions of rebels like Moneo and Siona to his side. Converting them, convincing them, and in fact, wanting to recruit rebels in particular because of their particular attitudes and worldviews.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Here's an Atreides continuing that tradition of loyalty.

[Leo]

Even their enemies, because there's that idea of like. So they've. They've turned. If they're rebelling, they've turned. They've turned on those who have given them orders. Why do you want them among your ranks? And he's going, I understand their complaints. I understand their perspective, and I understand what they want. And understanding them means that I know that I can trust them to, like, want these things and to have these beliefs and, you know, and I'd rather have principled people who I can work with. It's very like Leto who says, oh, it's the. It's the spineless bureaucrats who hesitate at every decision and can't decide. I'd much rather have the rebel who. Because they are the ones who can make quick decisions, and that's how we move forward. Very, very neat. Love that.

[Abu]

Yeah. Again, much respect to Miles T. Gotta love the guy. One of the best characters in Dune for sure. Now, Duncan and Teg also have a brief conversation about trying to suss out what the larger Bene Gesserit plan is. What are their plans for me? Do they plan on taking me to Arrakis? What do they want me to do? Why is Lucilla trying to imprint me? They're trying to suss this out, but ultimately it kind of just comes back to the reality that the Bene Gesserit operate within a need to know basis. And Miles Teg only knows what he needs to know, and Lucilla only knows what she needs to know. And Duncan, clearly, he needs to know practically nothing because he also only knows what he needs to know. As far as what the larger plan here is, we're still watching the pieces on the chessboard move around, but we can't see the edges of the chessboard, and we. We have no idea what the strategy is.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, near the end of the chapter, in this, like, startling moment, Duncan freezes up. And when Teg asks him what's wrong, Duncan says, quote, the Tleilax who have done something to me, something that has not yet been exposed. End quote. He feels something inside him that isn't awakened, but he can feel it there. Something that hasn't been triggered yet.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which is huge. Because, of course, like, this could throw all of our plans into disarray. If the Tleilax, who have fucked with the ghola, who appears to be the linchpin of all of this, right. If something goes wrong and something is awakened within him that sways plans toward the Tleilaxu direction, that could really fuck up Taraza's plans here.

[Leo]

Huge.

[Abu]

Now, to wrap up the chapter. Lucilla overhears this conversation between Duncan and Tag. She steps in, she does a bit of feet stomping. Once again, she's upset and angry about the fact that she has still been unsuccessful in following through with her orders to imprint Duncan. She points out that they are running out of time. They're up against the clock here. We will learn, for example, in the next chapter that months have passed. Like, they haven't just been in this no. Globe for a long weekend, for a holiday weekend. They've been holed up here for months. And she's feeling the pressures of that time. And we know that there are certainly enemies on Gamu. And even lashes out at Tag at one point in this chapter, accusing him of disobeying Taraza, of turning against the Bene Gesserit insane. Which is a bold accusation to make against my guy, Miles Tag. Have you heard his reputation?

[Leo]

Have you heard his reputation? Have you met a man? He's so tall. He can't be a betrayer.

[Abu]

Gigantically tall.

[Leo]

He's huge.

[Abu]

I would say look him in the eye and say that, but you literally can't. He's too tall.

[Leo]

Get a step stool and look him in the eye.

[Abu]

All right, so chapter 26 ends on some final thoughts here from Lucilla, where she, like, finally dawns on her, like, way too late in the game that they are all just chess pieces on Taraza's board. And Taraza is not afraid to sacrifice some of these pieces in order to win the game.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's where the chapter ends.

[Leo]

Yeah. Lucilla is late to the game. My God.

[Abu]

Yeah. For real.

[Leo]

Hey, better late than never. And she also realizes that not with like a oh my God, Taraz is evil and blah, blah, blah, it's kind of just like, oh, wow. Yeah. I think this game is more complicated than I thought initially.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Well, chapter 27, folks. Listeners, are you a fan of not being able to sleep?

[Abu]

I do have that problem because Frank.

[Leo]

Really delivers for us in our final chapter today where we are with Taraza as she has trouble not being able to sleep. It's very exciting. She is playing, to Be Fair, a 5D chess game that spans the galaxy. And she's tired, she is so fatigued and she's kind of trying to avoid going to sleep. She does this hundred heartbeat thing to like rouse herself. And even after some tea and a back rub from an acolyte, she's having trouble concentrating, she's having trouble keeping her thoughts lined up and she finally decides to take a nap. Telling the night guard to wake her at 11.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Now I was shocked because I basically think of especially someone like Taraza as like superhuman. Right. Like these are people who anything you expect from them, they're going to go above and beyond your expectations because they're so incredible.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

She mentions that it's like 1:30 in the morning. She checks a clock before she goes to bed. 1:30 in the morning. My girls out here asking for nine hours of sleep. I have normal, not superhuman friends who get less than that all the time. I don't know how much I get, but that I don't know. Am I the only one? I feel like that's crazy for all the prana bendu stuff and begrudging every minute, a 10 hour sleep feels somehow super relatable in a way that I just did not expect.

[Abu]

Yeah. Well, I think the implication is she's pulling like a Duke Leto and like popping pills to stay awake for like four days straight.

[Leo]

Oh, yeah.

[Abu]

And this is maybe the only 10 hours she's getting this week.

[Leo]

Okay. Yeah.

[Abu]

So that's like, at least that's what I was reading in between the lines.

[Leo]

I think that makes more sense to me and I did consider that possibility. Right. Like maybe once every five days. She's doing like a lion eating a gazelle method where you just like have a giant meal. Then a week later, you.

[Abu]

Snake meal.

[Leo]

Snake meal.

[Abu]

You know how snakes just like swallow a whole rat? If you just like don't eat all day and then you eat 2000 calories in one sitting in like one meal, that's your snake meal for the day.

[Leo]

That sounds terrible.

[Abu]

Extremely not recommended. Don't do that.

[Leo]

It's extremely bad. It's good for steaks, but if you've got any number of limbs, probably. Probably eat differently. Yeah.

[Abu]

So she's like snake mailing her sleep. You know, one giant bout of sleep once a week, twice a week.

[Leo]

Meanwhile, she still can't. I mean, she, she's like, okay, time for my snake meal nap. Goes to bed and then basically just can't fall asleep. Right. But she does think about a bunch of interesting stuff. And we wanted to briefly highlight some of these notable things that she thinks about when she's laying in bed. Now, first we're given a sense of timeline, which we did not have prior to this. It has been three months since Miles, Lucilla and Duncan escaped from the keep and no word from them. So remember, Teg going into the keep, said we're going to lay low. Eventually I'll start posting watch. And eventually we'll try to get in Contact with Taraza. 3 months. They have not had a chance to do that. They have not done that. No word. No one knows.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Taraza's frantic thoughts, they're bouncing around, they're trying to make sense of these last three months. She's like, every possibility, every even conspiracy. Has tag failed us at last? She wonders, right? Taraza, how dare you. Tag impossible.

[Abu]

Could not fail every possibility. Yeah, I mean, her thoughts like really spiral into conspiracies Also, you know, did the Tleilax who did this have.

[Leo]

Have.

[Abu]

Have the. Has Lucilla finally. Da da, da. Did Zhuang Yu, you know, she's really.

[Leo]

Tag an inside agent.

[Abu]

It's like, yeah, her, her thoughts are. I really loved how this couple of paragraphs was written because it is like written very frantically. It's written very much like some of my own anxious thoughts when I can't fall asleep. And I'm just spiraling in my own head. This is certainly what it feels like, you know, you're just thinking of every dumbass possibility that in your waking hours, if you were actually fully rested and feeling good, you'd be like, what tag in a double, triple, quadruple agent? No.

[Leo]

Yeah, like a third generation agent. Someone who implanted before like his mother's mother. You know, it's. It's nuts. But You. You're right. And again, I think what Frank has quietly done as an author is he's gotten to the point where some of these chapters and these paragraphs are very much imbued with character traits in a way that I think is really subtle and beautiful. And again, I would go so far as to say I don't think the Frank who wrote Dune in 1965 could write Dune Heretics. I think he is a better author now, much subtler. And I also think that's why I. I got through this book the first time and did not take note of how brilliant that is, that I read these. These paragraphs and it makes sense. But then I take a step back and go, wait, she's going crazy. Like, wait, she's really spiraling.

[Abu]

She is spiraling.

[Leo]

But I only kind of feel that when I get out of her line of thought, because her line of thought is all pretty reasonable. It's like, man, he's written this unreasonable spiraling in a very relatable way, which is cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do have some author critiques coming up in a bit, but we'll get to it.

[Leo]

Yeah, there is. There is one. I saw them. And I fully agree with one sentence. There's one sentence in particular that I'm like, okay, we'll talk about it. But as Taraza considers the honored Matre, she comes upon the realization that the lost ones returning from the scattering were likely seeking melange. Because, of course, what greater wealth is there than spice? And they know that these honored Matre have orange eyes. Maybe their eyes are being colored by some subpar material. Again, this felt a little bit conspiracy theory to me, because maybe they are. Sure. But it also feels like someone who understands spice to be the most valuable thing in the whole universe. Even the unknown billions of planets out there to be like, well, obviously, they're here for the spice. Akin to, like, I don't know, a Spanish Congress conquistador being like, well, obviously, they're here for our gold. And it's like, really? Do you think. Do you think in all of the world that's the most valuable thing? But, yeah, for Terrazza, it is. So it's this kind of limited vocabulary wrestling with the unknown questions of why would they come back to this part of the universe?

[Abu]

Yeah. And I think for us as the reader, that's a really great point. And I think what that illustrates for us as the reader is still how little information the Bene Gesserit have about this looming enemy. Yeah, we don't even know what their motivations are, like, what is their declaration of war here? What is their intent? We have no fucking clue. Yeah, but we're losing, like, entire planets to them. And, like, our people are dying. And so I think you're right. Like, she's still laying here in the dark, staring up at the ceiling, going like, milaj? Is it Milaj? Do they want spice? Like, maybe that's the only thing that makes sense. That's a great point.

[Leo]

It's. It's this battle of unknowns. Like, right now, Taraza, the one in charge of making every decision, doesn't have enough information to make the decision she needs to make. And that's torture for her. Now, her racing thoughts, her inability to sleep are interrupted by the arrival of Burly, a character who we had been told about before but have not yet met. And Bral's got urgent updates. So after being led into her chamber, Burly, the kind of soon to be supreme Bashar and Teg's direct student, tells her that Shuang Yu and Patrin are in fact dead. And Shuang Yu, in her final moments, left a message for the Bene Gesserit. Like a scribbled or like, marked in the furniture, the wood of the furniture. She left the message. Horrors single word.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And this, this is sort of. Taraza sees this as a redemption moment. She says, quote, knowing she would die without the opportunity to transfer her memory lives to another Reverend Mother. She had acted from the most basic loyalty. If you can do nothing else, arm your sisters and frustrate the enemy. End quote.

[Abu]

Nice. Hell yeah, Shuang Yu.

[Leo]

Hell yeah, Shuang Yu. And I appreciate that. I think we see Shuang Yu disagreeing with Taraza. We see her rebelling. We see her being a heretic. We see her literally jeopardizing the lives of Duncan, Lucilla, Tag, everyone, all these characters we like. But at the end of the day, what she has in mind is the best interest of the Bene Gesserit. And it's a ideological difference of, I think this is better for the sisterhood. I think this is better for the sisterhood. And in that moment of I'm about to die, she puts aside all of her disagreements and goes, I'm going to help them the only way I know how. I'm going to leave them a message that they'll understand. And that's so cool. It really. It makes swung you much less of a kind of 2D character and really gives her some depth that I appreciate, which I think is cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, agreed.

[Leo]

Now, Taraza is like all right, I've got you here, Bruce Molly, I need you to help out. What do you think Tag would have done? And she literally says, like, you're a tag. Now imagine you're Tag. And at one point, Bruce Molly's like, well, I think Tag wouldn't. She's like, no, what would you do? You're a tag.

[Abu]

Right? Okay, we're role playing.

[Leo]

He's like, let me go get a fucking ladder.

[Abu]

I guess I'm so short.

[Leo]

Now he. He tries to puzzle together what Teg's plan is. And through his puzzling, he decides he is fairly certain that they are still on Gamu and very likely close to where they left the burn marks to. Yeah, indicate a fake. No ship. You know, escape under the guise of a funeral for his master. So he's. He already has these sort of, like, routine trips that he's doing to Gamu because they have all this stuff on gamu. He's going to go back and he's going to do a, like, I'm going to do a funeral little, like, moment for my lost teacher and Tag, the most famous guy in the universe, and secretly, he's going to investigate the possibility of a Harkonnen. No Globe, which he guessed at the possibility of.

[Abu]

Cool.

[Leo]

Abu. How do you feel about that?

[Abu]

Fucking hated this. Like, I. This chapter. The. The end of this chap. This whole personally tag interaction was bad like, and deeply uncharacteristic for Frank. I think this, to me, was weak writing. This was bad writing. There's a ton of convenient leaps of logic here from both characters just to get the plot moving. Someone needs to figure out Tag is in a goddamn no room. So, hey, let's just roleplay. What would Teg do? What have you been doing for three months? No one asked, what would Teg do for three fucking months? Yeah, it's. It's silly. It's bad writing. It's. It's just, like, weak stuff that, like, is not fun to read. And you. I read it multiple times because I was like, maybe there's some layers of, like, Frank brilliance and subtext here that I'm missing. Let me read this again. Let me read this again, slower. And every time, I'm just like, how are we arriving at just. There's a Tag is in a no room on gamu. How did we get here? And if it was this easy to get here, just one conversation where you role play tag. What's been happening for the last three months? It's. It was just bad. I didn't like this one bit. And I think, like, one of my larger criticisms for actually Heretics and Chapter House is that Frank is beginning to rely too much on just like Bene Gesserit and Mentat and other superhuman abilities. It's becoming like a crutch for him.

[Leo]

He.

[Abu]

There are often instances where things will be hand waved away because, like, well, the Bene Gesserit just, like, do this now, you know, or like, not even, like, do this now, but, like, they've had this ability. So now the plot can just, like, skip four steps because whatever, they figured it out.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And that, to me is just, like, not enjoyable to read, you know, that that lacks the fun world building of the earlier books, the fun puzzling together of the plot of the earlier books. And it's one of my. One of. Definitely one of the criticisms I have for these latter two books in addition to. I think, like, we're basically at the end of this chapter, but I think, like, this set of three chapters was incredibly boring to me in general. And I know I've said that before, and it's because this whole middle section of Heretics is incredibly boring to me. There's so much just like, waiting around doing nothing. There's so much repetition. Like, this is now what, the second chapter that we're just hanging with Taraza in the office while she thinks about exposition. It's now, like the second or third chapter where we're just in the no ship, in the no room. Excuse me, in the no room with Lucilla and Duncan. And like, yes, stuff happened. Duncan got awakened. That was exciting. That was a great chapter. But now we're just, like, chilling and training and repeating things to each other again that we've already repeated chapters ago about how mysterious this plan is and how we don't know what's going on. Lucilla stamping her feet, mad at everyone again. It's just like we're treading water, in my opinion, for a lot of the middle section of this book.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

In a way that feels like if this was intentionally the pace to make me frustrated, I am frustrated and I don't want to keep reading. You've pushed it too far with this pace being way too slow and way too boring. So I guess I just really had to get that off my chest. Thank you.

[Leo]

That's fair.

[Abu]

For handing the mic to me there. But it's a big reason I don't really like Heretics and Chapter House as much as I just absolutely adore the first four books.

[Leo]

That's fair.

[Abu]

These are tougher for me to get through because it just. Parts of it feel a little lazy and bad.

[Leo]

Yeah. For listeners out there, I broadly disagree with most of what Abu just said. I love it. So I'm very much in the school of thought of, like, you're right. You are 100% right that we are treading water. The last two chapters, the last two Terrazza chapters.

[Abu]

The last, like, six chapters.

[Leo]

Well, yeah, because the chapter before that, she was sending a Dre to Arrakis and everything. But the. Or actually, she was meeting with Waf, which was, like, fucking crazy. But the last two chapters with O'Draid or the last two chapters with Taraza, she sent an email and then she couldn't fall asleep.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Frank intends us to feel the anxious, like, desire for shit to happen. We want stuff to happen. So does Taraza. So does Tag. So does Lucilla. So does Duncan. So does Brzmali. So does Waf. So does fucking everyone in this book. Everyone is like, they feel the tension that the universe is building. These honored Matres are back. We've barely seen them. We don't know what's going to happen. There's this log, key logs, dependencies. Things are about to fucking crash. We've been told and nothing's happening. It's torture. And. And thinking about it as a reader, page to page, I'm like, ugh. Oh, my God. This is okay. All right, next chapter. But from, like, zooming out, I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I love it. I'm. I'm super into it. And I will concede two things about this chapter. And I said before, there's one point that. That really rubs me the wrong way. Rereading it. I enjoyed how Bursmali said, I think the reason Patrin would have killed himself the way he did is if he was the key to Tag's plan. If Tag had come up with his own plan on his own, Patrin would have no reason to kill himself the way he did. And Teg wouldn't want him to. Because Potrin's such a useful person. He's such a valuable asset. He would have come up with a plan that keeps Patrin alive. So Patrin dying is the key to Burmali going? You know, I think this was something from Patrin's perspective. And what is unique about Patrin, he spent his entire life on Gamu, so I think there's something on Gamu that is part of this plan that no one's uncovered yet. Bur Molly, of course, uniquely qualified to talk about what tag would do. No one else can roleplay tag the way Brali can, we're told, and we have to accept. But the line that I refuse to accept is. In a low voice, she prompted. Yes. Gamu was a G. Was Giddy Prime a Harken in place? What does that suggest to you? They were rich, Mother Superior. Very rich. So rich enough to accomplish the secret installation of a. No room even of a large. No globe. Like, fucking what?

[Abu]

What?

[Leo]

I mean, if they said, how did we get here? How did you get to that? Like, if they said, like. Like, listen, if the Harkonnens were known preppers. If the Harkonnens were constantly known for, like, what? They're always installing shit. We found Harkonnen no globes on other planets. What if they have one on Gamma? Oh, great. We don't have that. So it's like, hey, they had a lot of money. Yeah. So did all of the great plant. All the great houses had a lot of. Yeah. Yeah. What if they had a Harkin and no clove? What? Oh, it's so are we assuming they.

[Abu]

Even had no glove technology? Like, didn't the Harkonnens get wiped out before? No. Gloves are like.

[Leo]

No, they were around. But you're. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

It's just like.

[Leo]

It's a crazy leap. I. So. Yes, Abu 100. I'm right there with you. That line. I saw your note. I went back to the chapter. I reevaluated that line out of.

[Abu]

Hilarious.

[Leo]

Right out of pocket. Yeah. It needs. Needs another paragraph or so just for us to fully understand how he got to that conclusion.

[Abu]

Yeah. And honestly, you. You solved it. You solved it. It needs, like, one person to just say, weren't other Harkonnen secret Harkonnen noglobes discovered. In other.

[Leo]

We found Harkonnen no globes on other planets, you know, 800 years ago on.

[Abu]

Undocumented secret, like, hidden in Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Archives that no one else has access to.

[Abu]

That no one else has access to. And this is why we specifically can solve this puzzle.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like, that's all. You literally solved it right here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it just. We just needed that paragraph explaining that.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But no, we get this, like, ridiculous leap of logic to exactly the solution and which. Which is unsatisfying. Right. Like, I think, ultimately, I think the criticism is to, like, this is just unsatisfying to just get to the solution like this.

[Leo]

Yeah. Because. Because, actually, I think if he said, listen, I think they're on Gammu. Because Again, key to patron. I, I buy all of that. If he said, I'm just gonna go back and I'm gonna look in that area, and then maybe at this point, Tag is doing his outside perimeters and he hears them and maybe he, he puts together, okay, they've come to this area and then they connect there. They could have done it without this leap in logic. So I, Yeah, I think that leap in logic, you're right. And then the other thing I'll concede is it is crazy to me that Taraza didn't three months ago say, hey, personally, role play with me. The fact that it took three months for her to be like, you know what? Holy shit, wait, come here.

[Abu]

Like the fact that Sherlock Holmes over here, come on.

[Leo]

She's like, I'm the most powerful, like, Bruce, Molly, go run errands for me. If only there was a way for me to know someone who knows Tag super well. So I, I, broadly, I love what Frank is doing. I think he, I think, I think it's fully intentional. I think he's frustrating us intentionally, because that's the point. And I think he's betting that we will keep reading. And coincidentally, he was right, that many people did keep reading and we will get to the rest of the book. But yes, this chapter in particular, we are starting to very much feel the creep of like, buck, I want something to happen. I love it for that reason. But for sure, I get it. You know, we all have that threshold. And it's like, I think mine is a little higher because of my art degree. And I like when people get kooky. Right, But.

[Abu]

Right. I'm less conceptual in that way. And I want you to get to the point. And I think you appreciate the more conceptual ideas much more than I'm like.

[Leo]

Tease it out, Frank. Tease it out. Really? Oh, frustrate me.

[Abu]

The foreplay. Come on, drag it out. I'm close, but I'm not ready yet.

[Leo]

I'm close. I'm not ready. Draw it out. Make it last, Frank. Make it last. Give me two more 200 pages of this. Jesus, I'm on the edge. So anyway, okay, let's finish up the chapter summaries. We got. We got too deep into it.

[Abu]

Sidetracked there. Sorry. Yeah.

[Leo]

Oh, it's okay. It needed to be said. The chapter ends as Taraza gives Brismali sobering orders. She sees him getting all, like, stoked cuz he made this inconceivable leap in logic.

[Abu]

Correct.

[Leo]

And she's like, hey, by the way, you cracked the case. Cool quote. These new ones, you must burn your own heads or shatter them completely. Take the necessary precautions. End quote.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So just really coming down on his parade. He's like feeling good. She's like, by the way, idiot, you might die. Take precautions. Idiot. Stupid, stupid. Go. And he's like, oh, okay. She's like, okay, good.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

All right. Well, that's our. Those are our chapter summaries. We are going to take a quick.

[Abu]

Yeah, we, we snuck into a little takeaway, maybe.

[Leo]

That would have been a good takeaway, actually. Anyway, so there it is. You got a bonus takeaway, folks. The pacing of Heretics of Dune and. Yeah, the two different. The two sides to the coin. Right. The two ways you could interpret it. We are going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere when we're back. We've got some takeaways for you right after this. Exclusively on ESPN Plus. UFC 313 Saturday. Reigning light heavyweight champion Alex Pereira defends his title against number one contestant contender Magomed on Goliath. And an explosive lightweight bout between Justin Gaethje and Rafael Pizzi. UFC 313 Saturday at 10pm Eastern. Buy it on espnplus.com ppb does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Well, those are our chapter summaries. Blah, blah, blah. We snuck a takeaway in there. Two sides of the same coin. Let's talk now about our takeaways from today's reading.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's get into our takeaways for today. So we wanted to start by talking a little bit more in depth about Shiana's dance. We kind of glossed over it in the summary earlier in today's reading, Odrade witnesses Shiana summon a worm. This incredible power that she has. And we get some of Odrade's analysis here that sort of begins to explain the mystery behind this power. We don't get all the answers, but we're starting to learn basically what Odrade is starting to learn as well through her observations. And so we wanted to pause here in this takeaway and look at This a little more closely because this is Frank having some fun with world building. And it's something that we've never seen or experienced in the Dune stories before, this ability to control the worms.

[Leo]

Yeah, and it's fun. I like the. I liked a lot of this. It was a good reminder of just how weird the worms are, honestly, because I kind of. I've gotten used to them just being like glorified Ubers where, like, yeah, you catch a worm to go over here, and it's like, no, no, no. These are crazy creatures and kind of fun to get some details about them. So before we talk about exactly what Shiana does, let's just recap what we knew already going into this chapter. And this comes, of course, from Odrade's observations of Sianoke in the Great Square of Keen. First, she has her epiphany from watching Cenok quote, the thing was composed of voice tones and movements and pheromones, a complex and subtle combination that had evolved the way all languages evolved. End quote. And again, to be clear, this ended hundreds of years of Bene Gesserits wondering about this ceremony, this conversation that happened subconsciously for humans, but is, as Shiana points out, the key. Those dancers would have been safe with the worm because they were speaking this language. Now, Taraza, of course, confirms Odrade's realization in an aside quote. Taraza held little doubt that O'Draid had made an accurate deduction about the Rakians and their dances. That was a plus. A language, but we do not speak it yet. That was a negative. End quote. Very cool. I love that little bit because, again, we start to see how the information passes from person to person and how these reports are kind of quietly happening in the background. But I also wanted to say there is probably a deeper conversation to be had at some point about, like, the Bene Gesserit relying and having to rely on language as the linchpin of their manipulations. They cannot do anything until they know the language of the people that they're trying to communicate with. So, for instance, with Waf, they couldn't really get into the Tleilaxu and infiltrate the Tleilaxu until they understood the cultural significance of these words, these Zen Sunni ideas, and that sort of thing. And here they're saying, we don't fucking know anything about how. What Shiana does. Oh, thank God. It's a language that's good. We know how to work with languages, but we don't speak it yet. So we are powerless to do anything. We need to prioritize learning the language however we can.

[Abu]

Yeah, right. And that's exactly what odraid does in today's reading. You know, like when the summoning begins, when Shiana begins her dance and calls the worm. Odraid is, like, locked in.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

You know, she is firing on all cylinders. She is gathering as much information as he as she can by witnessing this thing firsthand. Just like she witnessed Sihanouk firsthand and came on, came upon her revelations about this hidden language. Quote, her senses at full alert. O'Drage stored impressions. End quote. Full alert, baby. Imagine a fully locked in Benny Jesuit. How terrifying.

[Leo]

I know, right? Just foot. I mean, what do you. What does that look like? Just eyes peeled, nostrils flared. She's got both ear. Both hands up. She's like cupping her ears. She's like, listening, right? Actively mouth open. She's tasting the air.

[Abu]

What an image.

[Leo]

Everyone's like, oh, no. I also, I wanted to say as an aside here, I. I kind of mentioned it earlier, but, you know, the worms. I've gotten so used to giant worms because of this podcast and because of Dune. But Frank's writing in this chapter in particular was such a welcome return to the mythology of these giant creatures, right? Like, these are for the Fremen God. They are deities. They are also Uber and Lyft. Like, that's how you get from siege to siege, for sure. But they are mythological creatures that inspire worship because of how just insane they are. And, oh, Jade observing the, like, deep furnace rumbling, which we've, like, heard referenced a few times, but a reminder that there are lambent orange flames within the creature. There's literally glowing orange fire inside of these massive worms. It feels mythological. I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it. That's sick. And I didn't realize that I had started treating the worms very casually, just like, oh, yeah, it's just a giant sandworm. Hop on its back, pull up the ring segment. You know the deal. Easy. No, no, These are creatures that you witness them and you go, oh, I'm religious, though. Oh, sweet. Yeah, I discovered faith.

[Abu]

Cool, right? Well, it is a shift in perspective we've always followed. The first four books are either from Paul's perspective or, like, the Fremen perspective and worldview, right? Like, to them, the worms are these holy shy, huluded creatures, of course, but they are, like, commonplace enough that you call them like an Uber and take them to the grocery store to grab your beans. So when we shift here now to the Bene Gesserit perspective. The Bene Gesserit have not been riding worms for generations like the Fremen have and have not been teaching their young. And 12 year old Benny Jesuit have not been graduating worm driving school for generations. And so I think you're absolutely spot on. Like we're getting the Bene Gesserit perspective of a worm, which is truly mythological. And especially now after the events of God, Emperor and the tyrant.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

They've achieved an even greater mythological status.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And when taken from the Bene Gesserit perspective. Yeah. I mean this, this is like awe inspiring stuff. Oh, Draid has probably never in her life actually come this close to a worm.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So can you imagine?

[Leo]

Yeah, that's, that's the, that's the thing we have to remind ourselves. We're following the top 1% of the universe. We also are following the 1% of people, less than one tiny fraction of people who have been around worms and not immediately died because for, yeah, 99.999999% of the people in the universe, you see the gaping maw, the flames and then you're dead. So there's no perspective.

[Abu]

That's the last thing you see, baby.

[Leo]

You see, you hear the, the thump, thump, thump and you die. And that's it. So you're right, it's like, oh man, that's such a great point. We've been seeing the worms this whole time from the very, very small percentage of people who know how to be around them and not die immediately. And of course, Shiana is a new thing as well. How often even did Fremen get to stand in front of one and look straight down the maw without immediately dying? How often did they stop moving, period? It's like, this is. Yeah, that's huge. That's so funny.

[Abu]

For sure. Now, revisiting this dance in today's reading, let's pull out some details that I think are worth noting here. When Shiana the worm arrives and then when Shiana commands it to bow, which in worm terms is like effectively lowering its like big gaping toothy mouth to kind of comes closer to the party so they can hop on top of it. Odrade in her locked in state observes, quote, Shiana's control over the worm, a pulse of hidden language between child and monster. End quote. She feels something happening there.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's so cool.

[Abu]

Between child and monster. And this, this bow that's taking place, there's something there. It's in the air. It's electric. It's like the sexual tension you might feel with a lover.

[Leo]

She's like the way the worm kind of slithered onto the rock. She's like, whoa, I'm feeling it. This is. Is it hot in this desert or is it just me? And they're like, no, no, this. That's actually hot in the desert.

[Abu]

It's really hot in the desert.

[Leo]

It's really hot, actually. You're sweating because of that. Not because of the sexual tension air. Although there is that as well. We'll. Yeah. The fact that she can feel it. It's also fun to read about Benny Jeserit sensitivity to things like this as a visceral feeling. Odrade feels the language in the air, but Waf doesn't. Waff is just, my God, it's a worm. You know, he's.

[Abu]

He's in awe. Yeah. He's like, religiously. He's like, awestruck.

[Leo]

Yeah. So it's really cool. Again, really great world building from Frank, I think, to like, put us in this moment and to let us see all of this. It's very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. And actually, moments later, after the whole bowing situation, Shiana commands the worm not to move again so they can climb on its back. And Odrade thinks, quote, it's not her words that command it. Something else. Something else. End quotes.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we're getting at this idea that this is a language the Bene Gesserit don't speak.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So in her observations here, she. If you don't know how to speak it, you don't know how to listen for it. You don't know what's exactly taking place. And it's really interesting to watch Odrade in real time try to suss that out. It's not the words. If I, Odrade, were to walk up and say, please bow, I'd get eaten.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Nothing would happen. You know, it's not the words that Shiana is speaking. It's some combination of, as we stated earlier, pheromones dance. Some unspoken thing in the air.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Between this child and this monster.

[Leo]

She comes around and Shiana just has little note cards that say, like, okay, please get that. It's in Japanese cue cards. Yeah, it's in Japanese cue cards. And she's like, oh, yeah, it's not words, it's those cue cards. Please bow.

[Abu]

Right. Full on. Cheating.

[Leo]

It's also worth noting that, like, Shiana also doesn't understand it. Like, Shiana recognized that the other dancers. The other dancers would be safe, she said, but this is because she picked up on the pheromones and the. The non verbal, all the things that are not the words. She picked up on those herself, but she doesn't understand it because it's even. She is like, go, worm, let's go. Let's get out of here. And then the worm doesn't move and she's like, oh, please, please, like, oh, come on, man, you're making me look really dumb, you know?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And she's. This is years after she's commanded the worm. She kind of has confidence that she knows this is going to work. But as when her command doesn't immediately work, we see her confidence immediately falter, like she is still a child and she still is not sure how this is all happening. Which of course is an added layer of difficulty because Odre has to be the linguist who for the very first time actually notates how the language works and how it's spoken and what are the verb conjugations and all these things. She has to be the one that actually figures out that structure versus, say, a native speaker who's like, I don't fucking know why I say I run and Iran. That's just. It's just how it is. You go, well, that's not very helpful. Okay, let's write this down.

[Abu]

Yeah. This conversation makes me think of another Danny Villeneuve masterpiece. Oh, Arrival.

[Leo]

Yeah. So good.

[Abu]

Where, oh, gosh, I forget the actor's name. She has to suss out the alien language and it's so foreign and impossible to decipher. And I think we see a similar thing happening here with, oh, Trade. It's. It's obviously a little bit more mystical like in that movie.

[Leo]

Yeah. Amy Adams.

[Abu]

Amy Adams is like literally Hawkeye. Like, and literally Hawkeye.

[Leo]

Literally Hawkeye. Yeah.

[Abu]

You know, there's actually physical movements and shapes and things for them to try and decipher from the aliens that have arrived on Earth. Here, there's. There's less physicality and more. More subtle invisible strings being pulled. But Odrade is. Is doing what Amy Adams did as well, trying to figure out what communication is taking place here.

[Leo]

That movie is so good. I love that movie so much.

[Abu]

It's so good.

[Leo]

Now to wrap up this brief discussion throughout the encounter, it is also interesting to me to watch how Odrade deals with the very real possibility of her dying. Like her being this expendable pawn on behalf of Taraza's plan. Right. Multiple times we see her summon all of her abilities to the forefront. She's got her hands cupped around her ears, her tongue in the air. She's tasting the, you know, she's tasting. She tastes the dirt, she eats some dirt, gathers as much information as possible. Because even if she dies and she's not able to like, tell someone or pass on her memory through other memory, she wants to be useful. And she knows that people can get information even from her dead body. So if she can gather enough information, maybe they die. She gets torn in half by this worm. She just hopes that the top half of her body is fine and the Bene Gesserit acolytes who arrive on scene a few minutes later can memory transfer with her, with her, you know, still warm corpse or something like that.

[Abu]

Or the T probe.

[Leo]

Or the T probe.

[Abu]

There are a lot of ways for them to, you know, Right. As long it's seemingly. As long as her head is intact, given the orders that Taraza gave to Brzmali, seemingly as long as her head somehow survives her brain. Yeah, they'd be able to pull information from it.

[Leo]

Yeah, there's modern technology, holes in the skull from the T probes or whatever. So, yeah, it's. We don't really know the specifics, but we know that there's no mention of Shear, for instance. So, yeah, it is also almost safe to. Maybe it's safe to assume at this point if Odrade or Waf died there. I know what, what They're. They're immune. They don't need shear. The. The Tleilax who don't need.

[Abu]

Yeah, the Tleilax were naturally.

[Leo]

They're protected because of their sper. We were told, grossly, those virulent sperm, those virulent Tleilaxu sperm. But for instance, Odrade would have her. All the information in her head would be available, which is another thing to think about.

[Abu]

Super interesting.

[Leo]

Okay. That's our first takeaway.

[Abu]

That is our first takeaway. And actually this segues nicely to our second takeaway. Because speaking of dying sisters, we wanted to, for this second takeaway, mull over this story that we are told about Sister Baram, who is a failed Reverend Mother from Taraza's past. And we wanted to speculate a little bit about what we can glean from this story and what it might tell us about the Bene Gesserit as an institution and as a millennia long group in this universe. So just to briefly refresh your memory and set it up. Yeah. Here are the basic facts. Sister Baram was the Night Proctor back when Taraza was in school. She had a defect which is described as, quote, Periodic nerve tremors which manifested when she began to sink into sleep. End quote. Bahram's defect meant that she wasn't allowed to take the Spice Agony and become a full on Reverend Mother.

[Leo]

And.

[Abu]

And she didn't sire any children for the Bene Gesserit. They basically did not want her genetic material. Yeah, but that doesn't mean the Sisterhood just totally left her on the side of the road and abandoned her. They in fact put her wakefulness, this condition that caused her to be awake at night, to good use by assigning her to night patrol duties. Which makes a lot of sense now. Something I wanted to call out. For what it's worth. She is described in this chapter as a short and fat failed Reverend Mother, which really only stuck out to me because rarely in the Dune books are people described as either short or fat. Unless they are someone we're supposed to like, intentionally be disgusted by or they fall on the antagonist side of the line in the story. Like the Tleilaxu, of course, are described as these like, elfin, hideous looking people. But that's very much intentional when it comes to the sisters. I really can't think of an example where Frank Will would describe one of the more successful sisters like O'Draid or Lucilla as anything but like total hottie. Mcatis.

[Leo]

Yeah, like full, you know, but it's like, even if they're full bodied, it's like full bodied and not like fat. Yeah, I think in particular the fat quality because actually Bursmali is described as short. Bursmally is described as a short, slender man. And so you're like, okay, yeah, next to Tag.

[Abu]

I mean, yeah, in a photo, she's like super shorty.

[Leo]

65 was a tiny piece of short king, you know, he's not 6 10. Like tag the Magnificent Specimen. Like Tag. Yeah, you're absolutely right on the. On the fat quality because that is another trope where you have like I. And again, I tried to give Frank more the kind of benefit of the doubt where you could treat. You know, the Dune Encyclopedia said that Baron Harkonnen was fat because he like, loved that it offended people who had these sort of superficial, you know, people want you to be beautiful and. And he liked that it kind of upset them and it sort of an intentional power play on his part. But that was the Dune Encyclopedia. Frank never wrote that. So then it's like, I think Frank's just making. It's almost like Ayn Rand for all of her flaws. Another thing she does that's really annoying is like every good person is like brilliant and tall and slender and hot. And then every bad person's like ugly and fat and stupid and they're drooling and they have mayonnaise on their collar. Shirt collar. And they've got mustard on their sleeve and you're like, ew, stop. Just. It's so unnecessary. You can make them right. Not good. Or you can make, you know, you could have given her that genetic tremor thing and then just left it at that. When you're not making people who across the board with good character bad characters, you're not bringing body. A bunch of different bodies to those characters. It just feels like you're only making the fat people bad. Just like, come on, Frank.

[Abu]

Totally. Which you basically summarize it. It's a trope. You know, we see this in so many stories. We see this in modern stories. The hotties are the good ones and the. And the ugly puglies are the bad ones. Like, it's a trope. It's a tired trope. You know, it's a thing that like, as a culture we should move on from. Many folks are trying to move on from. And at the end of the day, like, there's nothing wrong with it. I want my stories to have hotties in them to be very clear.

[Leo]

Yeah, same like I want to watch.

[Abu]

A thing and go, damn, that's a hot person. Yeah, but if only the good. Like you said, if only the good people are the hot ones and only the bad people are the quote unquote, not hot ones. Yeah, then, then we're crossing this line into like, okay, now we're doing a bit of like, maybe even subconscious unconscious body shaming here. Oh, it's 100% body shaming character writing.

[Leo]

And again, let's not even exclude you can be fat and so hot. Like the, the, the. Even the distinction of like fat versus high.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

So just to clarify, we the. We want big bodied kings and queens on every side. We want evil people, we want good people. We want everything. We want diversity in our cast. Like true diversity. And not tokenism and not these characters. Not that. Not caricatures or bad tropes. So yeah, 100%. This feels like Frank kind of continuing to body shame, which is not great, dude. Like, if you're going to talk about how, you know Sister Bahram was short and fat, tell us about how hot she was as a short fat woman. Like, hell yeah.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

More. More like, come on, dude. And instead it's just like she's short and fat, had a genetic defect and couldn't have kids. It's like, right, thanks, Frank. Real subtle, right?

[Abu]

And died alone in a bathroom. You know, it's just like a series of, like, tragic, awful event. Brutal, terrible in the sense that, like. Yeah, it's just painting a bad picture. And agreed, I don't, you know, I don't mean to, like, specifically attack only Frank. This is a trope that many people are across, many mediums of storytelling are guilty of. But as I mentioned, just to got a little sidetracked there, the last sort of fact we have about Sister Baram to set the scene of her story is that she was found dead in a bathroom. This defect that she had was actually fatal. And her body was discovered tragically dead in a bathroom stall. And Taraz's memories of her through the language of this couple of paragraphs, at least to me, came off as, like, pretty disdainful and cold. She's like, kind of remembering Sister Baram as this, like, pointless, like Reverend Mother, who was the night proctor. But there is a bit of a silver lining there. Sister Brahm is the one that taught taraza her, like, 100 heartbeats meditative technique. So that's kind of where the connection comes from. But this, I think, leads to an interesting conversation.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I want to give you full credit for this, because this is a really fascinating consideration that hadn't occurred to me. But the interesting thing here is what this example highlights, the possibility, this highlights about the sisterhood as an institution, in that we know they cull certain things from their ranks. They say, we do not want people who have these genetic defects. Hey, Sister Bahram, you cannot have children. Or if you do have kids, we're not going to keep them within our ranks. What does that mean for the pool of other memory? Because other memory, this continuity of the Bene Gesserit that's lasted for 30,000, 40,000 years, is built upon women having children and passing on genetics. And so if you say, hey, you as a person cannot have kids, you are practicing literal eugenics. You are saying, we are going to improve the gene pool by removing you from it. And that is what the Bene Gesserit are doing. But also, what blind spots does this create such a fascinating consideration. So shout out to you, right, on.

[Abu]

An institutional thank you. On an institutional level, I think, is the question that I'm left thinking about, because you're absolutely right. The sisterhood certainly guilty of dabbling in light eugenics. Maybe not even so light eugenics kind.

[Leo]

Of medium weight eugenics. They kind of. Well, heavy, Overwhelmingly heavy eugenics. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And that of course, very icky. They justify it across for many reasons. And you know, we've talked about the Bene Gesserit as an institution, but this makes me wonder, do the Bene Gesserit not just sister to sister, but like institution to institution from like generation to generation, do they have memories passed down of for example, differently abled sisters in their past?

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Do they, do they have like institutional knowledge in their archives about neurodivergent sisters? Like, can they empathize with the lived experiences of people like this or are they just calling people like this from their history? Yeah, from their, from their institutional history and from their own ranks. Based on what we learned about Sister Baram, it leans more the latter. And you know, like, I do want to acknowledge that like this conversation we're having is like a very 2024 conversation. We're talking about very modern ideas around neurodivergence and differently abled people. And Frank did not explicitly write about these things in his books. You know, so like what we say here is just like speculation and theory and a bit of our own head canon.

[Leo]

Sure, yeah.

[Abu]

Based on what we're reading in the actual body of the text. But I just wanted to be explicitly clear. Like Frank doesn't answer this question that we're posing. It's just a fun thing to ponder based on what Frank did write about.

[Leo]

Yeah. And it's an interesting arena within which to do some speculating because for sure, like we know factually from Frank that the Bene Gesserit will see individuals. Fenring also came to mind, someone who they described as a genetic eunuch, but they, they said it's a flaw, like an inward focused flaw that made him un. Unfit for candidacy in the Kwisatz Haderach program or whatever, is that them realizing, oh, he can't have children because he's infertile, or is that them going, he shouldn't have children because he has this problem and we see that he then doesn't have any children. So we know they're doing eugenics. We know they're doing that.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then the question is, in 2024, as we learn more about how the human mind works and we learn more about what have been considered for many years disorders but are just, you know, neuro, neurodivergence and the different ways that our brains can be wired. Yeah, I love the conversation about like autism for instance, and them saying, oh, there weren't any autistic people until this period. And it's like, yeah, because we couldn't diagnose it before. You think your great grandfather who had a wall full of plates that no one was allowed to touch and they're all very, it's a special plates. Don't look at them. They're my plate. That one's in the wrong place. You think that was just his fascination with. It's like, yeah. People have had this, dealt with this stuff their whole as long as humans have been humans. So yes, it's, we are now coming as a society to understand it's important to listen to people's perspectives. And sometimes the different way that your mind works is a strength and is beautiful and is worth celebrating and is worth loving yourself and loving life and all that. So what do you think? Are the Bene Gesserit blind to the experiences, the knowledge, the, the, the maybe even the abilities, the benefits of differently abled people who don't fit their mold, you know, AKA their mold being Olympic athletes who are also like Nobel laureate, you know, geniuses. You're not an Olympic athlete. Think, oh trade. Yeah, yeah, she's really smart and also super hot. You know, it's like if you're not that.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

We don't want you. What do you think? Are they, are they blind to that huge pool of human experience?

[Abu]

Yeah. I mean if I were to speculate, connecting the dots that we know, I certainly do think that the Bene Gesserit have these blind spots in their history and in their understanding. Again, I've. Frank never wrote about neurodivergence or differently abled sisters. So we don't know specifically about that. But this blind spot, this shortcoming in their knowledge has come up already in a very stark example. Abomination.

[Leo]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

If you'll recall, for thousands and thousands of years the Bene Gesserit's go to mechanism for dealing with abomination was to kill the babies.

[Leo]

Yeah. Merkum Merk em. Kill it.

[Abu]

Abomination.

[Leo]

Kill it.

[Abu]

And they didn't explore other avenues of correction for this problem. And thus as an institution, they only passed down one solution to the problem.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But we know after having read Children of Dune, that Leto and Gnema, two people who notably were born preborn outside the Bene Gesserit fold. So outside of that institutional knowledge and.

[Leo]

Bias and control, they were able to.

[Abu]

Find, find not one, but two different solutions.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

For dealing with the abomination problem and living with it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Long ass lives like Anima.

[Abu]

Long Very long, happy lives.

[Leo]

I get it. You don't want to tell the Benny Jesuit, hey, by the way, the tyrant figured out a solution. You're like, well, he became a tyrant. I don't like that. And you go, well, what about Ganima, who just by all accounts was like an excellent human for 400 years.

[Abu]

Lovely human. Lived a beautiful life with Veratin.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

As an abomination.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yep.

[Abu]

And. And I think like the, the sort of thing to take away here is that this blind spot existing is harmful. We see how tragic it is for Alia when Jessica, her mother lacks the knowledge to deal with her pre born abomination nature. Jessica cannot provide as a mother the support that Alia needs to deal with this condition. Because Jessica is too much in the Bene Gesserit fold and seemingly like just runs away, you know, isn't even willing to explore other options there. This type of blindness to these, like, other ways of thinking, to exploring other possibilities and options, to understanding other lived experiences, it is almost like amplified by the way the Bene Gesserit operate. The fact that they're so laser focused on eugenics.

[Leo]

Yeah. Kind of solution. Yeah.

[Abu]

Becomes a snowballing problem for them because, like, if their solution is to just cut out the people they think don't fit their mold, they will never be able to understand those people like those lived experiences. And thus when something like an Alia is born, they have no clue what to do.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So. So I think, like, there's a very clear example of this in front of us. And that template could very likely be applied to something like Sister Bahram's condition or something like a neurodivergent sister who they intentionally fail and refuse to allow her genetics to continue in the form of children. I think that could be applied across the institution. And I think it is a very dangerous shortcoming of the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think the Bene Gesserit as an institution is ultimately pragmatic beyond any considerations of morality, what's good and evil. That's why they dabble in eugenics, because it's, it's evil. But they're like, we want better. We want to better the gene pool, no matter the cost, no matter the ethical, moral, whatever. And I think what they, from their perspective, you would have to demonstrate that there is a benefit to having the perspectives of the other people around. Now, I think the abomination example is a perfect example because you can look at someone like Ganima, you can look at her pools of knowledge, her ability to access her other memories in a way that other Bene Gesserit cannot. Her ability to run circles around full Reverend Mothers and Bene Gesserit people is very powerful. And she is not a tyrant. She is outside of their control. Sure, but does that mean you've been missing out on this incredible power source that is preborn Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers? And the answer is yes. Now I, I, we don't know enough to say what benefit the Bene Gesserit would have from differently differently abled people with neurodivergence, or we don't necessarily have the answer to like what the benefit would be for the Bene Gesserit's like gene pool to have those folks around. But what I want to drive home here is that the Bene Gesserit are acting like they have all the answers. They're acting like we've done the comparative analysis and the human gene pool is better off without people like Sister Baram. And I'm calling bullshit because you were wrong about abomination. And we see that they're wrong about abomination. We know they're wrong about abomination. And so I would also be willing to say they haven't done the comparative studies. They had some fucking belief from 20,000 years ago and they're just rolling with it and they're going, this is how we do things. Why? Because this is how we do things. I saw a TikTok. This is super light and off the topic, but kind of the same where a guy was talking about in Iceland, his job was to paint this thing yellow, this like beam on the dock yellow. And then there was a gray box next to the dock and he put the yellow can on the gray box, spilled yellow paint on it, and then decided to just paint the box yellow. And that box at every dock in Iceland is gray. It's always a gray box and a yellow line. Gray box, yellow line. 25 years later, they are still repainting that box yellow because it's, it was the yellow. So whoever went back to paint it the next time was like, well, I should repaint this box yellow. They don't know why the box is yellow. It's the only port in Iceland with a yellow box.

[Abu]

With a yellow box. Yeah.

[Leo]

But it's because this one guy up once made this mistake as like a 10 year old. And it just becomes the way that they do things and they go, why do we do things? I don't know. I feel like that's the Bene Gesserit. And they claim to know everything we see that they do not. And so I'm calling. I think you're being super unethical. And give Sister Brahm a chance. Let her have kids. Let her have a whole life. Don't force her into proctor duty. And you're right. I think Taraza treats her very like. Thinks about her as, like, oh, she was so easily swayed by the requests of a child. And it's like, ew, weak. I'm like, right, she sounds like a nice lady. Give her a break.

[Abu]

She sounded like a perfectly nice lady. Honestly. She sounds like she cared for the kids.

[Leo]

She sounds like she cares about you. And, yeah, okay, loving people is weakness, but it sounds like she did all right. All right. So give her a fucking break.

[Abu]

It's super fascinating because I think this fits into the larger question of other memory as a superpower. Yeah, like, other memory is definitely a superpower, but the more you think about it, it's also a super crutch. Like, it's.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Very much in the same vein as prescience. Right. On the surface, you think, like, knowing the future. Fuck, yeah. I'm gonna win the lotto tomorrow. Superpower. Oh, I'm gonna see the deaths of my family members in every iteration possible forever.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Super, super crutch. Like, you know, the yin and yang of an ability like this is fascinating to consider.

[Leo]

Well, also within the themes of this book, when you have the knowledge of millions of lifetimes, you become an institution of human knowledge, and then you are individually subjected to the inertia of human decision making, and you are locked into this sort of, like, crowd consensus thinking.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think that, like, within this book, it's very cool to see the multiple anecdotes like Sister Baram that Frank gives us as his way of signaling, hey, look at the Bene Gesserit. Look at how they treated this woman dying alone in the bathroom as a learning opportunity for the kids. Like, hey, come on in and see the. See this death moment. This is so cool. We get these little moments not to be like, oh, isn't the Bene Gesserit great? It's for us as the reader to go, I feel like the Bene Gesserit's a little fucked up and needs to change. And when you have this, like, we see all of the way that they handle things. The. The eugenics, the selective breeding. We know that disagreeing with that way, saying that that's fucked up, saying it's okay to love that is heresy. Heresy. And I think Frank, throughout this book is giving us many subtle and also not so subtle hints to really understand what heretics of Dune are and to understand how these characters that we are following, Taraza, Odrade, Teg, Duncan, Lucilla, Shuang Yu, all of these characters are within this wrapped up Bene Gesserit puzzle. And they all have their part to play and it all has to do with institution. And when does it change and when do you challenge it? And it's so cool. I love it.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now, coming up, we have a couple of yummy spice morsels for you to chomp down on. But before we get to them, they still need another minute in the oven. So let's take a quick break and when that oven ding, ding, dings, we'll be back to chomp down. We'll see you in a minute.

[Leo]

Rei Koa presents a mini mindfulness break. Take a deep breath in. Picture yourself on a mountain. As you hold your breath, look down at your skis, freshly waxed thanks to your REI membership. Carving through powder like a knife to warm butter. Breathe out slowly. Let the air leave your lungs like you'd leave your local co op. With all the gear, clothing, classes and advice you could hope for, make time to opt outside. Rei.com welcome back, everybody. Ding ding, ding, ding, ding. Oh, look, the oven's ready. All the spice morsels are done baking. They are? Oh, golden brown, crispy.

[Abu]

Smell so good.

[Leo]

Smell incredible. Let's open that oven up. Let's dig in. Don't let them cool. That's not the instructions.

[Abu]

Nope.

[Leo]

Our first spice morsel today. The Leadership secrets of the Bene Gesserit. So we're going to take a look, a closer look at the epigraph from chapter 25. Here it is. Quote, people always want something more than immediate joy or that deeper sense called happiness. This is one of the secrets by which we shape the fulfillment of our designs. The something more assumes amplified power with people who cannot give it a name or who most often the case, do not even suspect its existence. Most people only react unconsciously to such hidden forces. Thus we have only to call a calculated something more into existence, define it and give it shape. Then people will follow. End quote. Fascinating. I loved that. I thought that was so cool, this idea that we need. I think about this sometimes when it comes to, like, mythologies and the desire to believe in something that goes beyond the immediate and even the more long lasting satisfaction. Very interesting to look into Bene Gesserit manipulative thinking. So, in short, what is this epigraph saying? Well, it's saying that the Bene Gesserit identify this something more. They identify what it is that people are longing for outside of immediate happiness and long term fulfillment. They give it a name, they define it, they give it shape. And then they use that thing that they've created to control and manipulate people for their own designs, which of course goes deeper than them. What they want in the moment or what they want for their life. You can control them beyond those. Those are superficial compared to this something more. And we actually get examples of this throughout the book, right?

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

For instance, the Bene Gesserit recognized that across the galaxy people want freedom from oppression. People want freedom. So they plant the seeds. They plant the idea that there will be a messiah, someone to lead you from, you know, whatever. Using the Missionaria Protectiva, you say, hey, there's a messiah coming and it's going to be the son of a Bene Gesserit. And that's all you need to know. Did someone say, as it was written, muadib lisa na al gaib lisa al.

[Abu]

Ghai, he will know your ways as if born to them.

[Leo]

It's almost as if he is one of you. He walks among you in sietch and town. That is one example. Right. They know that people want to believe in a messiah. They want to have that hero that comes and shows up and saves them. So they plant these myths across all these planets so that they are ready for when the Bene Gesserit are going to step in and say, hey, by the way, we found your hero. Another example, the Landsraad, wanting a way to escape the endless scheming and the who's telling the truth and we're not sure. Well, the Bene Gesserit have figured out truth saying so. They say, hey, you need us to be able to do this. And we can then control using this method. Right?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And even in rapid fire we see Taraza do this. When she suspects that Waf and is believes in this ancient Zen Sunni ritual, she immediately goes, I know that if this is true, the Tleilaxu but have this like great belief and they want this spiritual vindication. They want this, you know, huge thing. So how do we use this to control them? Hey, by the way, the Bene Gesserit are not Powinda. We share the great belief. We are with you. We are not outsiders. And with that lie, they have satisfied a want that the Bene Toileks have wanted, which is perhaps not to be alone or to feel like there's progress toward this great awakening, this great. They're not being foiled by this group anymore. They're being helped by them. And all of this is, of course, to recruit the Bene Toileks to their side against the scattering people. Right, Very cool. And this is how, I mean, again, taking a step back. This is how the Bene Gesserit install themselves near positions of power and the levers of control that move society to steer humanity from the shadows while avoiding scrutiny and of course, while avoiding the Hunter Seekers and the fucking assassination attempts and the intrigue and that. They're just, they're. They're clean. Their hands are clean because they're just, they're just pulling the levers. They're good.

[Abu]

Yeah, man. Super fascinating. I loved this epic graph.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think the thing that actually kind of stuck out to me a lot was the statement that people want something more than immediate joy. That's fair. You know, I agree with that. Like, that a quick hit of joy, a quick hit of endorphins is only so lasting. You want more than that, something longer, more fulfilling. But the, the statement goes on and says something more than a sense called happiness. And that, that's super interesting to me because, like, I think a lot of us think that, like, happiness is the goal. Like, once I do X, I will be happy. Once I do Y, I will be happy, I will be fulfilled, I will be this or that. You know, like, people have made entire careers off of like, self help books on how to. How to find your calling, how to be happier, how to be fulfilled.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think the Bene Gesserit here are recognizing, like, there's actually more beyond, like you. You could be the happiest, most content, most well fed person and still there, there will be something more that you will desire. And we will, we will find that thing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Subconsciously unspoken, whatever it is, we will find it and use that to manipulate you. I think the Tleilaxu are a great example, as you mentioned, because no one, no one has explicitly ever said in the, like, Master of Masters meetings, like, oh, dang, I wish other people, like, believed in what we believe in.

[Leo]

Right? Yeah.

[Abu]

But through their actions, through, through, like their mission statement, their goal of creating an entire universe that is part of the Kell, that is part of the Tleilaxu vision. Taraza recognizes, like, this is an unspoken desire of the Tili Lacksu to not be alone. And they do kind of wish deep down that other people believe to grow the Kell in the thing that they believe in, to grow the Kell. So Let me give them a little bit of what they want. So it's super fascinating. I think a lot of people, myself included, have always thought happiness is the end goal. And it's something that can just like be achieved one day and then I'm done.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And the Bene Gesserit understand that like, humanity is more complex than that.

[Leo]

Well, I also see this as like, I think that's the promise of a lot of religion, right? Like you say, you can be immediately satisfied. You can also long for lifetime satisfaction and fulfillment. A feeling of this life was well spent. But what about your eternal soul? What about beyond the end of your life? What happens then? And if you find fulfillment but you've, you know, I don't know, abandoned the Creator God who gave you this great gift of a chance to find fulfillment, then you suffer eternally. And that's. And maybe that suffering eternally is literally the pits of fire in the hell, or maybe it's just you don't have the reward that you're given. So I think that's also why the Bene Gesserit turned to religious myth making and miss scenario Protectiva. They say the answer to how to genuinely manipulate people, even beyond how do you get someone to give up the satisfaction of their mortal life? You give them something greater than their mortal life to work for that they want more than mortal happiness. You say, hey, Tag, you happy in your family home with your lovely family, on your farm? You're like taking personal, personal interest here. You're, you're experimenting, you're growing plants.

[Abu]

Quality time with your daughter.

[Leo]

Quality time with your daughter who's always making fun of you like that's you like that. And Tag's like, yeah, I've lived a really long life. I had a long career. And they're like, cool, back to war, back to war, bro. And he's like, yes, I want that. Because he believes in the Bene Gesserit mission statement. As he understands it, that is his manipulation. So it's. Yeah, it is. I mean, again, it's, in some ways it's really cynical because if it is true that there is some greater cause to work toward, then sure, you've leveraged people to work in their own best, greater cause interest. But if that greater cause is myth that you've created wholesale whole clothes to deceive them, then you have made them. Or you can make them give up their immediate and long term happiness for your ends, which is really like, well, that's fucked. That's crazy, right? But that's The Bene Gesserit, folks. That's the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Okay, let's talk about our second morsel today and wrap up today's episode, the Atreides Manifesto. A first draft. The epigraph in chapter 27 states this quote. By your belief in singularities and granular absolutes, you deny movement, even the movement of evolution. While you cause a granular universe to persist in your awareness, you are blind to movement. When things change, your absolute universe vanishes, no longer accessible to your self limiting perceptions. The universe has moved beyond you. End quote.

[Leo]

I want to give this advice to Frank as an author.

[Abu]

Ooh.

[Leo]

You know, why do you say that? We just recorded our episode about him writing, like, homophobic shit and like, the, you know, stuff that is, like, really tough because it is in line with 1950s thinking, but not 1970s and 1980s thinking. He. Things changed. Public opinion changed. The world moved on. Psychological understandings of things moved on. Frank did not move on.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

The universe moved beyond him. And then that caused harm to people. So, yeah, I don't know. Frank, Frank, have you read Heretics of Dune?

[Abu]

Have you heard of this book, Heretics of Dune? Yeah. I mean, thematically, this is. This is practically later to speaking, right? Like, this is an idea we've hammered home time and time again. This idea that stagnation is death, that growth, evolution, accepting chaos. All of those things we've mentioned a thousand times. Like, that is practically what this little section of the manifesto says. And it's just interesting to consider how the Church of the Divided God finds the manifesto so heretical. Whereas the Tleilaxu, like, love this. You know, they're like, oh, this is gonna rile people up. This is only gonna work for us. Because these ideas are exactly what Leyto2 was shouting from the rooftops of his citadel, right? And then also writing in his journals. And it's true. Like, no. No one likes the idea of being left behind and forgotten in a universe that has. Has moved past them. But I think in particular, that is a dangerous idea for totalitarian governments or religious institutions that are kind of built on this idea that they are the end all, be all, you know, we have all the answers. We provide you everything you would ever need or seek. Do not look past us. We are the end state of your universe. And so this kind of thinking in the manifesto that says, hey, like, if you believe in granular singularity is in one thing. Like, you're going to get left behind. The universe will evolve beyond you. That's dangerous. To people who want to maintain the status quo.

[Leo]

Yeah. Also, we have all the answers, and the answers haven't changed in 100 years.

[Abu]

Right, because again, exactly.

[Leo]

I think some people who struggle with, like, the theologists and theists versus people who really put all of their faith in science and emergent scientific discoveries. The big difference is that, like, scientists will often be like, oh, yeah, we were wrong about that. And we. And our. And our answer has changed because of new evidence and new information that's emerged. And that's where a lot of the difference lies versus, there will always be people claiming to have answers that you don't have access to, and then you get to decide on what that is. But it's like the court of public opinion and the court of, like, what. What benefits all of us. I don't know. There's something there for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating stuff and very in line with the themes here and set. Kind of sad and ironic that our guy Tuik, like, fucking was bursting a vessel over this manifesto when it is literally what his God has been saying for thousands of years. You know, it just shows how deep the corruption runs in the church of the divided God that they can't even recognize the words of their own God when it's written back to them because it goes against their own power structure. It goes against their status quo.

[Leo]

Kind of feels like the helping the meek and the poor and the unwashed and the. You know, and you're like, oh, no, I don't want to do any of that. It's like, well, that's kind of what. What Jesus said to do. Okay, anyway, yes, very, very good point. And again, ultimately very in line with all of Frank's themes across all of his books.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Now that is the episode, that monstrosity of an episode. But, dear reader, the book is not done yet. We just had three great chapters. We got three more great chapters for you and you for the next episode. Should have read through chapter 30, which, if your version of the book is different than ours, ends with the sentence. Quote. It has no words, but I know the heart of it. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. A picture book.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is the answer to that riddle.

[Leo]

I solved your riddle. Riddle master, your move. Not a riddle, just the end of a sentence. Yeah, very good. Exciting to hear what that is all about.

[Abu]

Same. Okay, before we let you go, a couple of very quick reminders. The two best ways to support the show and help us keep going.

[Leo]

Hey.

[Abu]

Is one, to become a patron. Patreon.com jabar Nice and to check out the dune themed swag. Back to the on our merch store bar shop.com if you're curious and want to help support the show, check out those links in the notes below.

[Leo]

Help us buy those beans. Also, we love to hear from you so email us Gam Jabbar Podcast gmail.com We are not reading this book alone. I hope so. Let us know what you think. Let us know your thoughts, your questions, your queries as well as if you have pictures of cute pets, send them to us. We're always happy to see. We're always happy to hear from you and we will respond eventually. Well friends, there is no real ending, it's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lord Party podcast network on LordParty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Lore Underscore Party thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.