Dune: Prophecy Episode 6 and Season 1 Review

Summary

Gom Jabbar Podcast: "Dune: Prophecy Episode 6 and Season 1 Review" Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosted by Abu and Leo from Lore Party Media, offers an in-depth review of the sixth episode and the entirety of season one of HBO's Dune: Prophecy. Released on December 23, 2024, this episode navigates through intricate plot points, character developments, and critical analyses, providing both commendations and critiques tailored for longtime fans and newcomers alike.

---

1. Introduction and Early Screening Revelation [00:00 - 04:13]

The episode kicks off with Abu sharing exciting news: he and Leo received early screeners of episode six and, during recording, discovered that Dune: Prophecy has been renewed for a second season. This unplanned announcement injects humor and spontaneity into the discussion.

Abu [00:00]: "Leo and I got early screeners of episode six... you'll hear us scream into our microphones as we see that news pop up on our phones."

2. Spoiler Alerts and Patron Shout-Outs [02:34 - 04:13]

Leo and Abu issue a spoiler warning, advising listeners to watch the finale before diving into the discussion. They also extend heartfelt thanks to their patrons, highlighting the support that sustains their podcast.

Leo [03:04]: "We are gonna be talking about all six episodes of Dune Prophecy."

3. Detailed Episode Six Breakdown [06:21 - 51:32]

The hosts meticulously dissect episode six, covering key scenes and character arcs:

• Familial Tensions and Betrayals: The revelation of Tula's pregnancy and Valya's promise to support her challenges existing power dynamics within the sisterhood.

  Leo [06:58]: "And Valya promises to support Tula and her baby once she is Mother Superior."

• Dr. Nazir's Sacrifice: Dr. Nazir attempts to neutralize a machine virus through a perilous procedure, ultimately failing and unveiling unsettling truths about non-human entities.

  Abu [07:34]: "Nasir reveals that the visions she is seeing... are not human."

• Desmond's Torture of Kieran: A brutal interrogation scene exposes flaws in character motivations and power structures, sparking critical reactions from Abu and Leo.

  Leo [09:07]: "Desmond is torturing Kieran by just bouncing him against the wall."

• Inconsistent Plot Developments: Valya's illogical prison break plan and the abrupt power shifts leave the hosts questioning narrative coherence.

  Abu [17:54]: "This is Valya's plan that she explains here to Francesca... It all just feels very personal and very petty."

4. Praise for Visuals and Character Portrayals [54:09 - 58:20]

Abu and Leo commend several aspects of the show:

• Character Depth: Tula Harkonnen's portrayal by Olivia Williams and Emma Canning receives high praise for its nuance and emotional complexity.

  Leo [54:09]: "I love everything about Tula Harkonnen... excellent nuance to Tula's motivations."

• Visual Effects: The depiction of internal struggles and the virus is lauded as "visually stunning," with special mention of the VFX team's work.

  Abu [54:10]: "The visual representation of metabolizing the virus was so smart, dude."

• Acting Excellence: Chloe Lai's performance as Lila, showcasing multiple personas, is highlighted as a standout.

  Leo [57:56]: "Lila is a character I thought was quite fun... Had to be like four different people over the course of the season."

5. Criticisms and Lore Inconsistencies [60:18 - 63:24]

The hosts delve into their primary grievances, drawing parallels with Brian Herbert's books:

• Overemphasis on Lore: The show prioritizes intricate world-building over meaningful thematic exploration, rendering the narrative feel like "empty calories."

  Abu [74:03]: "The show is empty calories that fail to nourish the mind and the soul."

• Unresolved Plot Threads: Reliance on future seasons leads to numerous loose ends, leaving the first season feeling incomplete and unsatisfying.

  Leo [60:39]: "How could this show commit two major sins this season... setting things up for the future without delivering a satisfying standalone narrative."

• Increased Gore and Violence: Compared to Frank Herbert's subtlety, the show introduces excessive body horror and graphic violence, which disrupts the original tone.

  Abu [61:17]: "The nature of the violence is always second to the motivations that drive the violence. Frank is pretty sparing in his descriptions of gore."

• Technological and Lore Flaws: Inconsistencies with "other memory" and the functionality of technological elements like the thinking machines undermine the show's credibility.

  Leo [65:43]: "Why does Desmond use it? Why is he okay with that piece of technology?"

6. Overall Season One Assessment [68:06 - 82:30]

Abu and Leo summarize their season-long perspectives:

• For Abu: The season was largely forgettable, plagued by poor narrative focus and an overreliance on lore at the expense of character and theme.

  Abu [70:50]: "I gotta ultimately, unfortunately conclude that this was a largely forgettable season of Dune television."

• For Leo: Despite enjoying certain elements, Leo shares a sense of missed opportunities and thematic underdevelopment, expressing hope for future improvements.

  Leo [82:20]: "I really resonate with a lot of what you're saying, especially when it comes to missed opportunities."

• Renewal Impact: The announcement of season two rekindles hope, suggesting that the creators might address the first season's shortcomings.

  Leo [86:02]: "This finale leaves a number of characters floating. So in season two, let's talk about who gets developed, who gets resolved, what happens."

7. Final Thoughts and Season Two Optimism [84:03 - End]

Despite their criticisms, Abu and Leo remain optimistic about season two:

• Potential for Improvement: They believe that with the show's renewal, there's an opportunity to refine storytelling techniques, resolve loose ends, and enhance thematic depth.

  Abu [80:20]: "Even bad shows deserve a second chance. Even bad shows deserve to find their footing."

• Encouragement for Creators: The hosts express hope that the production team will capitalize on the newfound chance to elevate the series.

  Leo [87:15]: "Show us what you can do when you've got everything together."

• Audience Engagement: They conclude by inviting listeners to support the podcast through patronage, merchandise, and social media engagement, fostering a community around their shared Dune passion.

  Abu [104:37]: "Send us your thoughts, send us your theories, send us what you hope to see from season two."

---

Notable Quotes

• Abu on Early Renewal:

  "[00:00] Abu: ...you're going to hear us say things like, if it gets renewed for season two, that's why."

• Leo's MO for Competition:

  "[00:51] Leo: Today on the show, we've decided to kill all of our competition and we're gonna hide the bodies..."

• Abu on Loyalty and Manipulation:

  "[17:35] Abu: Francesca wields an immense amount of influence on the Emperor... She can make him do practically whatever she wants."

• Critique of Plot Armoring:

  "[48:59] Leo: He's holding the contents of his stomach in. He's like annoying whatever, you know, trained Bene Gesserit sister stabbed him in the stomach and it didn't kill him."

• Hope Despite Criticisms:

  "[80:47] Leo: ...this show is not irredeemable... I hope there are more miracles in store for this show, for this team, for this production."

Conclusion

Abu and Leo's comprehensive review of Dune: Prophecy Season One serves as both a critical lens and a passionate fan's perspective on the series' strengths and weaknesses. While they commend the show's visual prowess and standout character performances, they express significant disappointment in narrative execution and thematic depth. The episode concludes with a hopeful outlook towards season two, encouraging creators and fellow fans to engage and contribute to the evolving Dune universe.

---

This summary encapsulates the essence of Abu and Leo's discussion, providing key insights and evaluations for listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of their critical take on Dune: Prophecy Season One.

Transcript

[Abu]

Hey, folks, it's Abu. Real quick update for you before you listen to this episode. Leo and I got early screeners of episode six. We watched well in advance and we were recording this episode as the news broke that Dune Prophecy had been renewed for season two. So it's actually kind of funny. The first half of this episode, we had no idea about that news and we were recording. And then you will hear halfway through this episode, us basically scream into our microphones as we see that news pop up on our phones. And then the rest of the conversation. Of course, we have the context of season two being renewed. So I just wanted to give you that information up front and explain why for a large portion of this episode, you're going to hear us say things like, if it gets renewed for season two, that's why. Anyway, hope you enjoy this one. Thanks so much for listening.

[Leo]

Today on the show, we've decided to kill all of our competition and we're gonna hide the bodies at the literal scene of the crime. If you think about it, it's the last place anyone would expect to find just a pile of bones. Think about it. Think about it. If you think it's dumb, you haven't thought about it enough.

[Abu]

Think more.

[Leo]

Think harder. Think more about how stupid this is.

[Abu]

Keep thinking about it until it makes sense and stops being stupid.

[Leo]

Just keep thinking. Just keep.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and folks tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name's Leo and we are here. Yeah.

[Abu]

At the end of it all. Well, at the end of a season of it all.

[Leo]

At the end of some of the all. At the end of season some of.

[Abu]

It all kind of some of it's ending. Episode six, the finale to season one of Dune Prophecy on hbo. Max. We are here to talk about it today. Not only the episode itself, but of course, at this point, the season at large. But Leo, before we jump right in, let's make shoutoutmapes proud and take care of our housekeeping.

[Leo]

First up, we have a spoiler warning. We are gonna be talking about all six episodes of Dune Prophecy. So make sure you've seen the finale which should have come out just a couple of days ago. And we will also be talking some light details about the Brian Herbert prequel books as well as the, well, let's just say through our book club. So make sure, you've read the first few books of Frank Herbert and otherwise you should be good to listen today.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, a huge shout out up top to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchinson, CR Spruill. Yeah, those are exactly the people I want in my other memory. If you want to possess me, go for it.

[Leo]

Possession. Full blown abomination, Abu. Wow. Capital A. Abomination, huh? Sweet.

[Abu]

I'm here for it.

[Leo]

Thank you so much, fellas. Have fun with his body.

[Abu]

Yes, please do. Thank you so much for your immensely generous contributions and support to making this podcast possible. But of course, our gratitude and our thank yous also extend to all of our patrons who continue to to build the foundation upon which this show runs.

[Leo]

Yeah, and listen, hey, if you are burnt out on subscription things and you want to make a one time donation, one time tip, you can buy us a spice coffee, you can buy us tickets off of this fucking planet even though the spaceport's in lockdown. Let's get the fuck out of here. That link is in the show notes. Yes, we appreciate that as well.

[Abu]

That's right. Okay, you know the game plan for these Dune Prophecy episodes, folks. We will begin the conversation by summarizing today's episode, which is episode six of Dune Prophecy. Then we will dive into a couple of takeaways. And of course, we will wrap up today's conversation by wrapping up our coverage of Dune Prophecy and sharing our final big picture thoughts on the show at large. So before we dive into all of that, let's take a quick breather and compose ourselves. This is going to be a big one, folks, so we'll see you in just a minute after this short break. Hey folks, Abu and Leo here from the Gom Jabbar podcast here to tell you about another Dune podcast that we think you're going to love.

[Leo]

It's called the Official Dune Prophecy Podcast. It's from the fine folks at hbo. And of course, the HBO Original series is going to be focusing on that shadowy sisterhood that of course becomes everyone's favorite Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

On the companion podcast, hosts Greta Johnson and Ahmed Ali Akbar are going to guide you through every episode of the HBO Original Series and unpack each episode with guests from the show, including cast and crew.

[Leo]

So if you're listening to our podcast, Gom Jabbar, you're probably already a huge Dune fan. We think you'll enjoy the series and their companion podcast. It's a fresh take on an incredible universe. And we're all going to go places we've never seen before.

[Abu]

That's right. And if you're a podcast listener, you know the drill. Listen to the official Dune Prophecy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to stream new episodes of the HBO original series Dune Prophecy exclusively on max. This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things.

[Leo]

Like if you want to practice for.

[Abu]

An upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.

[Leo]

Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready to talk about the final episode of Dune Prophecy. Our finale of Dune Prophecy opens with a flashback to young Valya, Tula, Kasha and Francesca during the death of Dorotea. Oh my God. Now they were just fully watching when Valya had Dorothea kill herself. And they conspired to keep it a secret, claiming suicide with careful telling of truth. She took her life by her own hand. Don't ask any follow up questions.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And Tula reveals to her sister that she is pregnant by oriotreides.

[Abu]

Ooh, wow.

[Leo]

And Valya promises to support Tula and her baby once she is Mother Superior. Now that she is Mother Superior, she says, hey, I can fucking rewrite the rules, sis, I'm here for you. And rules about separating children, their mothers. All of those rules be damned.

[Abu]

So after the opening credit scene, we then return to present day. We are once again with Toola and Suk Doktor Nazir, who's a hottie. Mikati. My goodness.

[Leo]

Oh, she's so beautiful.

[Abu]

She's so beautiful. As the two are trying to once again solve the mystery of this machine virus. Now we have more information about it, thanks to Lila Rakela from last episode. Is this something that we can neutralize? They ultimately conclude that we could maybe neutralize this if we did the same thing we do in the agony where a sister undergoes the agony, takes this Razik poison, and then changes the poison within her own body. That same technique might also work on this virus. And Tula volunteers first, but Nazir says, no, I'm the doctor, let me handle this one. And that's what she does. We then cut to this pretty great scene, actually, where we get this lovely visualization of the virus, these little floating dust particles where Dr. Nazir attempts to do just that, to undergo an agony via this virus and transmute it. Transmute some sort of antidote that they could then use. Unfortunately, it doesn't work right. And Dr. Nazir Burns just like Kasha, just like Pruitt. And in her final moments, with her final breaths, Nasir reveals that the visions that she is seeing, the same visions that we've been teasing all season long, are not human. Those eyes are not human.

[Leo]

Bum, bum, bum. Well, over at the palace, everyone's favorite place for intrigue, Desmond is torturing Kieran by just bouncing him against the wall.

[Abu]

It's kind of. Can you. That looks kind of fun.

[Leo]

It looks fun. Kieran's coughing up blood. So now I'm wondering maybe something that the suspensers, maybe they magnify the hit where he hits the ground. But I'm like, yeah, is this the just wall ball? Wall ball with the torturous wall ball with the traitorous swordmaster? Sure.

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm sure the goons to his left and right have also been punching him and stuff.

[Leo]

Yeah. I mean, maybe not. They're just like, love wall ball, boss. This is our favorite. They're getting a nice cardio workout. They're starting to sweat a little. It's great. Better than pickleball, you know? Now Desmond is trying to kind of suss out, okay, we have this traitor. He was part of this rebellion plot. He believes. He knows that the sisterhood is involved, and he wants Kieran to give up the facts. He wants Kieran to confess. He wants Kieran to provide him that smoking gun. Kieran refuses. First of all, he's like, I had no fucking clue. I'm an idiot. Didn't you know this? I'm dumb. I don't know any of this stuff. But also, I hate you, Desmond. I'm not gonna. Even if I did fucking know, I hate you. And I hate everything the emperor stands for. He says. I'm impressed because he knows what the emperor stands for. And I'm still kind of wondering. Emperor seems mostly pretty reactive and generally pretty stable and stagnant. Not really sure what that means, but sure. Nevertheless, he refuses. And he's thrown against the wall again. Bounce him again, boys. Give him another bounce. Now, in a quick throwaway scene, Yanez demonstrates that despite her advanced truth telling abilities and her incredible training with the Bene Gesserit, she sucks at intrigue because she is immediately caught trying to rescue Kieran. And she's caught by none other than her mother, Empress Natalia.

[Abu]

Yeah. Wow. This irked me. A lot. Because this was inexplicable on so many levels. Why Natalia would do this. We've had basically no interaction between mother and daughter except that scene where she is dressing for the wedding in episode one.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In which we are shown that the two seemingly have a loving and supportive relationship. And in fact, Natalia urges her daughter to embrace her own autonomy and make her own choices and not do what she feels she has to within the confines of a royal life. And for that same mother to now show up five episodes later and arrest her daughter for some reason is just so inexplicable and feels so ham fisted and lazy to me. And just like we need this plot to happen, so it happened. This irked me quite a bit. I got hung up on this.

[Leo]

Yeah. We got a couple of hints at this kind of rift that was forming in the breakfast table where Ines goes, I want to leave with mother Valya. And her mother is the one that shuts her down and goes, that's not possible at this point. So we start to see that rift form a little bit. But you're right, I think like many other instances, in hindsight, they would have benefited from one additional scene where they kind of hash it out and they go, I don't think we're seeing eye to eye anymore. And I'm starting not to trust that you know what's happening or you know what's best, but we don't have that. So this does feel pretty sudden. And even the emotion of her mother going, I wish you'd come to me sooner.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I'm sort of like, do you. Would that have changed anything?

[Abu]

What does that mean?

[Leo]

Well, y'all might be wondering what Havoco's up to. Yeah.

[Abu]

What is he up to?

[Leo]

Fully in bed with Francesca. And I appreciate. I actually really liked this little scene. I thought there was a lot of tenderness between them both Tabuu and Mark Strong looking fucking great. I cannot believe that Mark Strong is 61 years old. This dude is looking.

[Abu]

That's crazy.

[Leo]

Oh, he is. He's looking Mark Strong, if you know what I mean. Any. That's a name joke. Anyway, nevertheless, she is in bed with him. You know, he says, she's like, hey, I've got to go, I've got to leave. He goes, no, please stay with me forever. And in fact, Natalia knows about us. She's none too happy about it, but I think it would be a relief for everyone for us to just drop the charade. Let's stop fucking pretending you're the love of my Life, let's do this. And Francesca has a moment of like, wow, are you really, you're serious about this? Like, you would have me in Natalia's place and Natalia will go off and do other things. And like. And he says, I will talk to bring Valya. Like, I want to talk to Mother Superior. Well, you know, I want to get this done. And the real impression I was getting here, and we get kind of confirmation of this later, is he is just fully offering Francesca kind of what the whole point has been this whole time. A member of the sisterhood on the emperor's throne, right at the head of the universe, granted, with her husband, but someone who she knows that she can control fully. He's in love with her. And I don't know, I would question.

[Abu]

That a little because he did not offer her marriage and an empire. He said, I will find a place for you in the palace so that you can continue to stay here as my mistress. I don't think it's a. Let's replace. Let's do a little switcheroo swaparoo with you and Natalia and make you the empress. It's. I don't want you to leave, babe, and I'll go send her off on some mission so that you and me can just keep banging openly and I'll just find you some sort of paper pushing job here in the palace.

[Leo]

That's true. He says he's tired of being patient. He says he's gonna. Yeah, he offers her a place. I'll find you a place to stay in the palace. But I also got the impression that his idea of what that looked like changed throughout the scene, where at first he's going, stay, don't leave. And then he's going, you know what? No, fuck it, let's drop the pretense. Natalia knows, and ultimately, whatever he didn't say, I get a lot more of it in what Then Francesca says to Natalia when they meet later, and she's going, this is what he was saying to me. And this is what we're talking about. So that's kind of what I'm. That's where I'm kind of settling. But.

[Abu]

Right. But I think even politically, like, she would nominally be like, empress adjacent. Like, to Valia's point later, a divorce would destabilize the empire. And so, like, I imagine it's more of a. Like, I send Natalia away and you just kind of are my, like, mistress slash acting empress, but, like, you maybe don't have the title and prestige that comes with it, you know, Like, I don't think Havoco is so stupid and enamored that he would blow up the imperium to divorce his political wife and be with his mistress and then elevate his mistress, I don't know, back on him.

[Leo]

Have you seen Francesca? I mean, absolutely.

[Abu]

I would blow up the impulse for Francesca, absolutely. But I just, I think Francesca is also making some leaps of assumption here about what Havoco is promising. I think the specific words that were spoken in that scene did not promise a divorce and marriage.

[Leo]

I think, yeah, it's maybe not so clear. But it's also possible that what Francesca is talking about in this moment or when she talks Savalia later is as much about the fact that he is ready to make some big changes. He is still fully in her pocket. So maybe it's not today that he's like, you get the title of Empress, but if even it's, I'm going to send Natalia away to far away in the galaxy and then it'll be you and me in the palace. She's like, honestly, would not be that hard to get from where we are now to this later thing, Right?

[Abu]

Absolutely. Francesca wields an immense amount of influence on the Emperor, regardless of her position or what title she may or may not be given. She's imprinted on this guy quite heavily and it is quite easy for her to make him do practically whatever she wants him to do. And that's huge. You know, that is about as close to the throne as you can get without actually sitting on the throne.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Okay. Well, speaking of Valya, it's time to plan a prison break, Leo.

[Leo]

Uh huh.

[Abu]

Because again, despite sort of Francesca being like, I'm in a position of ultimate power here, let's utilize this like, we got a huge opening. Let's jump right in. Valya's like, no, no, no. Fuck your plan. This is my plan.

[Leo]

I've got a new plan.

[Abu]

This is my dumb, dumb plan that I'm going to dumbly explain to you. Here's the plan. Let me try to explain this.

[Leo]

Well, she has to. There's a camera watching her. They need to make sure they lay out every step of it for later.

[Abu]

Right, Exactly. Step one, Valya will boldly go to the palace and get herself captured in order to enter the Suspenser prison to get Yanez out.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Theodosia, remember her? She will shapeshift into Yanez.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Francesca is going to kill Javico Carino.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which is batshit. What? That's batshit crazy to me. Valya. Harkonnen after you just explained to her that a divorce would destabilize the Imperium.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So killing him is not going to destabilize the Imperium, is it? Not going to leave a massive power vacuum where there's going to be this like, political blitzkrieg of every fucking powerful house on the Landsraad gunning for the throne because he doesn't have a legitimate heir. Constantine is off in Iraq, is doing shit.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Yanez was going to be married off, but has now disappeared because you've, you know, saved her and took her to Wallach Knight.

[Leo]

You abducted her.

[Abu]

Yeah, you abducted her. What is the plan after that? Like, anyway? It's that. That is Valya's plan that she explains here to Francesca in Theodosia. This is how we're getting Yanez out. We're gonna kill the Emperor and then we're gonna get things back on track. We're gonna get Ynez on that throne. All of it seems very unlikely, like.

[Leo]

Cause she also doesn't account for Natalia at all. Like, her whole plan, let's kill him.

[Abu]

It's like, the more you think about it, you're like, francesca, babe, you're it. You're already like, your foot is already halfway through this door.

[Leo]

You're there.

[Abu]

Let's just walk the rest of the way in. And we don't need to kill anyone or go through some shenanigans to abduct the princess. Like, the solution was literally handed to Valya right there in that moment, and she refused it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Multiple times. And that'll be one of my takeaways today. It's just like.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. A lot more to say about that.

[Leo]

Yeah, we see how much Vali is like, what she says and what she does are very unaligned. Now, her fully half baked plan aside. Not even in the oven yet. Plan aside, we cut to another flashback where the young conspirators consult with Aniril. So it's all four friends in the thinking machine asking some questions and devising their 30 year plan to get Yanez on the throne. And I thought parts of this were really cool. I liked the idea of we have this young Corrino whose big tendencies are he's like, kind of fearful and he's more likely to be a stable person than like a dynamic action taking person. And Natalia, her qualities are that she is very action driven and very aggressive and like, those come together into Yanez, who's then going to be a really excellent empress. And I'm like, yeah, that's pretty. That is very in line with what we know about the breeding program come the time of Paul Atreides, where they're saying qualities of House Atreides, qualities of House Arkon, and blah, blah, blah. So all of that, I thought was quite cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, it was. And I wanted to quickly shout out Crusader Kings 3 for folks who have played it, because this is just these young girls playing Crusader Kings 3. That's a game where you, like, you rule an empire through many generations of kings and queens. And like 80% of the game is you marrying off your children and your children's children to the proper pairings politically, but mostly genetically. Weirdly, like, all the characters have certain traits, and you have to combine the traits to find to create the best ruler for your empire that has all the best positive traits.

[Leo]

So what you're saying is Crusader Kings needs a Dune DLC.

[Abu]

Yeah. Crusader Kings is already like 90% of the way to just being a Bene Gessit game.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it just needs that final 10% push. But certainly made this scene, made me think of Crusader Kings 3. I wanted to mention it real quick.

[Leo]

Yeah, great point. Well, Anirul shows Tula, you know, at a point, Valya says, hey, girls, give me and Tula a second alone. And they all go, of course. And then they walk into the shadows and are gone. Aniruil has calculated that the cross of an Atreides and a Harkonnen, which has never happened before, would be very formidable. Like just incredible qualities across the board. Maybe this is charismaticness, maybe this is boldness. Who knows? But just very formidable. If Guided could be someone that would shift the whole universe, you know, very Kwisatz Haderach. Right.

[Abu]

Yeah. This is where I have some follow up questions for Annual. How? Why? In what way?

[Leo]

Yeah. Say a little more specific. Yeah.

[Abu]

ChatGPT.

[Leo]

Here's what I found for. Can you say a little more on the Internet? And you're like, thanks.

[Abu]

This was frustrating to me because this is giving Skywalker. Right. This is giving Chosen One. This is giving Harkonnen and Atreides bloodlines are always special, magical, different, unique, destined.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which I think we've chatted about this before on a previous book club. But doing that, forcing everything to be related to this same family or whatever shrinks the universe. It takes the mysticism, magic and excitement and wonder out of a universe when you all, you constantly just tie it back to the same thing. Atreides plus Harkonnen gives you some sort of magical Kwisatz Haderach, baby. Every time.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, then that begs the question. So you couldn't do anything for 10,000 years, despite the fact that, you know, you have these two perfect bloodlines that'll create a hyper powerful person no matter what. Very confused and I think ultimately not the best.

[Abu]

Agreed.

[Leo]

Yeah. Very, very Skywalker coded. That's true.

[Abu]

Let's check in with Lila, because things are going on over here too, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Lila, who is now possessed by Dorothea, tricks Jen into releasing her from her.

[Leo]

Ugh.

[Abu]

Jen releasing her from her restraints and then immediately starts wandering around the school until she happens to come upon and crash Emmaline's secret meeting of these religious acolytes that we've seen these past couple episodes.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

From there, she asks some weird questions that makes Emmaline's ears perk up. She in particular asks about sisters who are ancient history by this point. Like, they left, like, 30 plus years ago. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, none of them work here anymore. Still do. They even go here. So then Dorothea frantically tries to search for information about what happened to her friends and her followers from 30 years ago. These Butlerian sisters who followed her belief that we saw back in episode one, only to learn that they've been erased. They were disbanded. They were erased. They were removed. They are no longer part of the sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah, they're not off on a mission somewhere. They're not like Francesca. Right. Other side of the universe, doing something. They're just gone. Which does make me wonder, where did Emmaline read about these people then? Yes, if they were erased from the records. Exactly. I'm curious. I might need to rewatch a couple of those scenes. But I left. Having seen the episode now twice. I'm still not exactly sure if these sisters, the spooky, scary skeletons we're gonna see later, if they were erased from the records, how did Emmaline read about them?

[Abu]

Right. It's totally illogical because also, Dorothea goes into what I guess is the Mother Superior's office and, like, goes into the secret locker. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Knows the code, pulls out, like, hidden records. Emmaline wouldn't have access to any of that, so how. How would she know that they. Yeah, that's a great question.

[Leo]

So the hidden records were expunged of these people you murdered, but you just left references to them in all of these other places? Feels like maybe an issue.

[Abu]

Certainly an issue. Well, sticking with this happens a little later in the episode, but I figure let's sort of stick with Wallach. Nine for a second. Dorotea does then lead Emmaline and Jen at this point, who has frantically arrived and is trying to get Lila back to the secret room. She leads them to that pool courtyard where we've seen a lot of conversations happen on Wallach 9, and specifically to the spot where she died, where she stabbed herself in episode one because of Valya's actions. And we get this pretty horrific flashback to the young conspirators, the four girls from earlier confronting first and then using the voice, murdering the Balerion sisters. Yeah, all except Avila, who we. Young Avila, who you see kind of fall to her knees and say, I changed my mind. I will accept your leadership, Valya.

[Leo]

This also felt a little fast because the command, the command, it was like the command they said is, if you cannot bow, if you can't, like, understand my vision and join me and follow my lead, then you should do what? Do what Dorothea did, which is to say, take your own life with a knife. And now you have to choose. And that was the command. And everyone you know cuts their own throats, except for Avila. But I'm like, you didn't want to give them, like a five minute pitch. You didn't want to do, like an elevator pitch style of like, hey, hey, hey. I know we're all torn up. They kind of just say a few. A couple of quick things, and then they're like, all right. Like, very uninterested in those resources that are being wasted. Right. And I think this is one of those differences in the books, where in the book, Valli is very like, we might have to retrain and reprogram Dorothea's followers, but the goal is not to just murder them outright. And in here, we see you murdering a giant chunk, or at least a big chunk of who we've seen of the sister.

[Abu]

It doesn't land because it's very transparently shock for shock value. Like this scene is. And so it doesn't quite land like I think it. They think it does. You know, like you. I imagine the show wants us to go, oh, my God, what a twist. That's crazy that they chose to do that. But instead, my reaction is mostly confusion rather than shock.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I did walk away from the scene with sort of a hollow feeling of mostly confusion and wondering why I just watched that happen.

[Leo]

I liked Tula's line where she's like, please listen to her. Like, she's still very shell shocked from, like, mass violence and her part of it and trying to, like, turn a new leaf. And I liked that she had that agency in this moment. But again, she didn't really work that hard to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before. Hey, guys, before we do that. So for sure, I think. I'm not sure exactly. Yeah. What I was supposed to feel from this, it was a little like, okay, also, why in the cone of silence? Like, they deployed the cone of silence, which I was excited about. This was a moment where I was like, I like that I got to see a cone of silence being deployed, but I don't know its function. I don't know why it was being used. You could say, well, there might have been someone overhearing and they're just kind of cementing the secret. But you haven't shown me any other people, so I don't know.

[Abu]

Right. And it's the dead of night. Like, there's all these reasons for us.

[Leo]

To not worry about it being overheard.

[Abu]

Right. Lots of confusion and questions, for sure. So, anyway, either way, here's something else that's incredibly confusing. We cut back to present day.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Somehow Dorothea's other memory within Lila knows this happened.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Knows about the slaughter because she walks over and pushes a secret button compartment thing, and that drains the water from the pool to reveal that the Butlerian sisters that the conspirators murdered 30 years ago, their bodies are just right there at the bottom of the pool.

[Leo]

This is honestly probably one of the worst parts of this episode.

[Abu]

Like, baffling.

[Leo]

I was thinking just now, like, what if Dorothea's mother. We don't know. Sorry. What if Lila's mother. We still don't know who Lila's mother is? What if Lila's mother was among those people? And if she was, then at least her mother's memories up to the. I mean, again, in Frank's world, up to the point of conception, so not even. But whatever. Let's say Lila's mother was part of that group, and thus she has her mother's memories. And so now Dorothea, in charge of Lila's bodies, has Lila's memories and also Lila's mother's memories, and also Raquela's memories, blah, blah, blah. Let's just fucking say it works that way.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

We didn't get any sign of that. So again, we're doing the work of the writers to say, well, here's maybe a way that it works.

[Abu]

Right? But also it doesn't work because why would she be confused about what happened to them then if she just remembers what happened?

[Leo]

Oh, fucking good point.

[Abu]

Why go to the office and look for records? You Remembered this slaughter happened. So why the fuck are you looking for records in an office?

[Leo]

Yeah, that's also a great point that if you. She either knows about the skeletons at the bottom of the pool or she doesn't know where all of her friends are. And in this episode, she does both.

[Abu]

Both of those things. It's so utterly confusing and confounding and, like, maybe there's an explanation that both of us are missing somehow.

[Leo]

Yeah, we need to.

[Abu]

But I have watched and rewatched this episode multiple times, and it has never made sense on any watch of this episode.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Well, wrapping up, sort of the summary of the Wallach Nine adventures, the final thing that Lila Dorotea does is after showing this group the bones at the bottom of this pool, she leads this angry group of sisters into the breeding index room. Once again, just kind of breaking into it. The security here is not good at the sisterhood school.

[Leo]

Just a crowbar does it all.

[Abu]

Just a crowbar. And they make their way to Anirul. They make their way to the breeding index. And Dorothea smashes the computer bonk.

[Leo]

Yep. Well, anyway, back at the palace, Havoco confronts Desmond. What the fuck, dude? You arrest my daughter, bro?

[Abu]

I thought we were. Bro.

[Leo]

I thought.

[Abu]

Bro.

[Leo]

Bro. Come on, bro. That's so not lit.

[Abu]

My daughter, bro.

[Leo]

Bro, that is so not lit, fam. And Desmond, hilariously, is like, this is really between you and Natalia? Like, honestly, this is. She commanded me to. And ultimately, even though Desmond very much, again, pushes for his plans, his. His desire to rid the. The empire of the sisterhood, Havoco is clearly backsliding. Havoco is clearly like, listen, actually, I'm gonna patch some stuff up. I might have been hasty before when I kicked out the truthsayers. I'm gonna bring them back, and I'm gonna meet with the mother superior, and I'm gonna talk to her. Talk it out. Because we've had a long relationship, and the fact that I, like, threw all that away was brash of me, which I really appreciated, because, again, I like that a lot. Yeah, I really loved this moment for a few reasons. Like, first, it is Havoco pushing back, but it's also Havoco pushing back in a direction of stability and in a direction of the status quo. Of. I kind of liked how things were before, and I kind of want to go back to how things were before, which feels very in line with this character who's driven by fear and has these, you know, anxieties. This fucking guy Desmond's out here killing a lot of people and, like, that's taking bold movements, and I feel like I'm losing control. I don't like this anymore. I want back to safety.

[Abu]

It's a great moment. It's very in line with his character and it gives him agency. He does something for his own plot line, which I loved and is still consistent with his, what we've established him to be in this story, the beacon of stagnation, the beacon of complacency, the beacon of the status quo, as you stated.

[Leo]

Not to mention, we also know this is because of his time with Francesca. This is because of the things she's telling him. So it's a moment of agency. It's a moment of him pushing back against this charismatic guy, Desmond Hart, but he is still acting at the wishes of the Bene Gesserit. He's again trading his puppet strings back and forth. And ultimately, that will also color very much his realization that he's never really made a choice in his life, which is such a crippling, sad moment and will justify his choice.

[Abu]

Mark Strong crushed it during that moment, for sure.

[Leo]

He's so good. He's so good. I loved him. Now Valya's plan is fully set in motion as she and Theodosia arrive at the palace just as Natalia and Desmond make their move against Henry. He's upset about this and then is told by a guard, hey, boss, Mother Superior's here. And he's like, oh, shit. Well, actually kind of. Good. Thank God. And he, desperate, distraught, approaches Valya. And I would say this is the second time that Valya is handed what she claims to want on a silver platter. He goes, I'm so sorry. I made a mistake. I was led astray by that guy. Help me defeat him and we'll go back to how it was. I'll have a truthsayer, you, me, the sisterhood and the Emperor. Tight, close again. And she's like, no, fuck you.

[Abu]

And in fact, sitting on his throne.

[Leo]

By the way, sitting on his throne.

[Abu]

While delivering this monologue, she starts the.

[Leo]

Interaction by saying, I wanted to clarify our positions. Fucking insane.

[Abu]

The audacity.

[Leo]

The audacity. And then she launches into her villain monologue. Quote, we've been shaping your path since before you were born. You were only ever an assignment. You didn't really think Francesca loved you, did you? End quote. And first of all, bullshit. You were not shaping his path since before he was born. He was already born, I think, 30 years ago. Liar. Second of all, so mean. I left this scene feeling so genuinely bad for Havoco Corrino.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So he says, arrest her, you know, and she goes without complaint.

[Abu]

This scene really landed. I mean, it also shows us Valya's character, her vindictiveness.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

She's not out here trying to complete a goal in the most reasonable way possible. She's out here for revenge. She's out here to stick it to the guy that stuck it to her. Let this be a lesson to you, Havoco Corrino. Don't you ever fuck with Mother Superior ever again. Yeah, you know, like, this is personal for her. She is well beyond thinking logically, and I think this scene really hits that home for us. This is personal. She would not have dug so deep against him here if it wasn't personal.

[Leo]

I think that's 100% true.

[Abu]

Anyway, let's talk about this confrontation between Francesco and Havoco, because later that evening in his quarters, Francesca actually reveals to Javoco, look, here's the gom Jabbar needles. Listen and subscribe wherever you find your podcast.

[Leo]

It was crazy that she said that.

[Abu]

It was so weird. Very nice that she said that, but I'm gonna let it slide, you know. Thank you.

[Leo]

I mean, they named the episode after us. It was very nice of us.

[Abu]

She reveals, I was sent here to murder you. Valya's plan was for me to stab you with this thing tonight and not in the way that you like, babe. And Havoco doesn't believe her again because that seed from Valia has been planted that Francesca has been playing him this whole time. None of this love has been real. And he, in a very traumatic choice, chooses to maybe make the only decision in his entire life that he's ever made of his own volition. He stabs himself.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Right in front of Francesca from that moment. We then cut over to. Because now that we're watching basically the prison break all take shape and happen, we're in the final act of this episode. So we quickly then cut over to the suspenser prison, where Valya arrives, followed closely by Theodosia, now disguised as Yanez. They free Yanez and explain how Theodosia will take her place. But Yanez says, no, I won't leave here without my guy, Kieran Atreides. Yeah, we both go where nobody goes.

[Leo]

He's so well written. How could you leave without him?

[Abu]

He's so well written. And so they have to call an audible on the plan. They gotta change things up on the fly. They're gonna take Kiran with them. And Theodosia, instead of being Ganez, as we will see shortly, will Instead, pretend to be one of the injured guards on the ground to catch Desmond off guard. Well, let's close the loop on this escape sequence and this Havoco death sequence, because we then return back to Havoco's room, where he is bleeding out on the ground. Francesca is distraught and crying over his body as he dies. And Natalia sneaks up on her and pricks her with her own gom jabbar in the neck. Rip. Francesca, she falls right across her lover's body, and Natalia runs out of the room screaming, the Emperor is dead. The Emperor is dead.

[Leo]

Yeah. With kind of the perfect little scene, right? Like, clearly Havoco was stabbed in the stomach by this Bene Gesserit. And clearly Natalia arrived just in time to kill the sister, but not in time to save her husband. Now she's the grieving widow who now has to.

[Abu]

For her to incriminate the sister.

[Leo]

Now I'm the empress, you know, and all that.

[Abu]

Yeah, totally. Right. Sets her up to be like a. Like a bad version of Cersei.

[Leo]

Yeah. She seemed genuinely shocked that the needle did such a good job of killing Francesca. And I'm like, what was she expecting? Does she know it had, like, meta cyanide on it? Because she was like, prick. And then like, oh, she's dead.

[Abu]

Yeah. What if that worked?

[Leo]

Yeah. Francesca's like, ow. What the. Oh, my God. Kill yourself. Like, what? Why did you do that? Thank God that that needle had a meta cyanide on it, otherwise that would have been really awkward.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

Yeah. Didn't do a knife. Didn't do something. Like, it felt. It feels appropriate and it feels like very, again, Shakespearean, but definitely was a risk on Natalia's point.

[Abu]

Yes. Right. Again, this is one of my larger criticisms of the show. Feels appropriate if you're writing the show for the audience, from the audience perspective, from Dune fans who know this, not for the character in that moment, in that world, consistent with their own worldviews and beliefs and actions and motivations.

[Leo]

Like, wouldn't she just stab her in the back with a sword?

[Abu]

Wouldn't she just stab her? Wouldn't she call a guard? Wouldn't she. Anything except gom Jabbar? But we got a gom Jabbar because Dune.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or like, knife across the throat or something.

[Abu]

Which is clunky.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, anyway, we return to young Tula in a flashback where it is revealed because I was like. I was blown away. I was like, oh, my God. Valya knew about her child with Oria Trates. That's wild. It is revealed that she worked with young Francesca to swap babies. She fully swapped babies. She gave Desmond away. She wanted to save Desmond from the generational trauma that caused the death of her love, Ori Atreides. She wanted to save Desmond from Valia's planning and scheming. She wanted to save Desmond from all of it. And so she gives Desmond to a mother who had a stillborn son. And the mother is a traveler who can take the baby far away. And Francesca says she has means so that he will live comfortably, although clearly that perhaps did not work out exactly as planned.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And a very interesting reveal and one that I think that I like.

[Abu]

I enjoyed almost every time the show flashbacked to the young Tula and young Valia. And I just. I even wrote it down in my notes. I just was like, wish this had been the show. And I continued to think that even in this episode, too. So I agree. I liked this flashback to young Tula and the heartbreak of giving up her child.

[Leo]

Yeah. And that whole sequence is so beautiful. I mean, even the way that she takes the stillborn baby and just looks at it with such tenderness and such, like, sympathy for this mother who must have lost it. And then I'm also thinking, you know, in addition to the trauma of giving away your child and how hard that is, the baby's crying and she's clearly struggling. All of this becomes motivating. Like, the core of Tula's character in the future is like, who is Tula? Tula's the one who did all of this for the sake of her son.

[Abu]

And Jen's saying, what have you ever sacrificed? I've sacrificed more than you know.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. Now, in the present, adult Tula arrives at a locked down spaceport.

[Abu]

God.

[Leo]

Locked down the spaceport. Except for plot, critical characters. Let them in.

[Abu]

Let those in. Let them in real quick.

[Leo]

Let them in. I mean, they have. She had. Who's. Who's at the door? Tula. Oh, yeah. She's important for the scene. She has to go.

[Abu]

Let her in. Right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Who are you? Side character. Stop right there.

[Leo]

Stop right there. Not important.

[Abu]

This spaceport is locked down for all side characters and non critical actors.

[Leo]

Duke Richese. Yeah. You're not in this episode. Leave. Go tend to your burns, boy. And we do get a quick shot of Haro Harkonnen grabbing a recording device. Hey, Leo, I fucking called it.

[Abu]

You called it. Nice one.

[Leo]

Well, at the spaceport still locked down, Valya and Desmond face off just as Tula arrives in time to help her sister overcome her visions. And the Virus. An incredible sequence, one that I loved and was just really great. Totally, totally, totally swept up in. I was so on board.

[Abu]

It was visually stunning.

[Leo]

Yeah, visually stunning.

[Abu]

There's a really cool moment where the. Where adult falia. And then this particles pass in front of her face and she becomes younger.

[Leo]

She's the child again.

[Abu]

And I was like, oh, cool.

[Leo]

And then she snaps back to unafraid Valya, who's there facing her fear, letting it pass through her. And she's back to her wizened older form. So fucking rad. So much to say about that. And we see in this sequence, as she battles the virus, her fear is rooted. Goes all the way back to that moment when she saved Griffin Harkonnen, still very much tied to her brother and her brother's death being her fault. And he even confronts her about that in this fearful memory. And in order to survive, she has to overcome and accept the fear. She can't battle it with strength. The way she's battled everything in her life forever, as Tula tells her, guides her through this. She has to overcome and accept the fear. She has to let it pass. I don't know. Around her doesn't feel right. Maybe the fear has to pass.

[Abu]

Underneath is also kind of weird.

[Leo]

Underneath is strange. Are you jumping? I don't think so, no. So maybe it passes over you, but also maybe through you. Oh.

[Abu]

Oh.

[Leo]

Over and through.

[Abu]

I like through. Let's stick with through. Let's keep working on this. Let's keep workshopping this.

[Leo]

I don't know. I feel like this should have a snazzy title, but I don't know. The Fortune Cookie. The Fortune Cookie of Fear? No, the Parable. The Parable of Intimidation.

[Abu]

A little clunky, you know. Too many examples. We'll keep workshopping. We'll announce something in the next couple episodes.

[Leo]

No, no, nothing. Anyway.

[Abu]

You get the bit.

[Leo]

You get the bit. One day we'll come up with something. Write us what you think it should be called. Listeners. We'll come up with it. Anyway, so we also learn in this sequence, we see what the blue eyes are. And Listener. It is the single glowing vision module of a thinking machine operation robot who. We see it. Desmond's strapped down. It pulls out his eye, implants some things inside the, like, visual thing. And then now his eye is the weapon that triggers the nanovirus. And that's. That's it. That's what it is.

[Abu]

That. This puts all those Leto II Paul Atreides theories to rest. It was just a thinking machine all along. Another Reminder that we're still in Brian Herbert's universe.

[Leo]

Yeah. And mysterious silhouette. Mysterious silhouette there. But otherwise.

[Abu]

Yeah. Right. Valia says the machine, obviously, and the eyes aren't the end all, be all. There is an actor, a shady actor working behind the scenes using the machines against the sisterhood.

[Leo]

I also do see this as the answer to how he survived the worm.

[Abu]

I think it's supposed to be.

[Leo]

It's like this was on the surgery table where they brought him back to life and implanted shit in his body and everything. And then he is left to interpret, how did I come back to life? Well, that must have been God, those two blue eyes.

[Abu]

And he's perhaps even implanted memories. You know, if we're already poking, prodding around in there, might as well throw a couple of religious memories in there.

[Leo]

Yeah. And you know what also could have made him more resilient? I mean, we see all the scars on his back. Like maybe they gave him stronger things. And that's part of his character. We've talked about how fucking plot armored up he is. But in the Brian Herbert books there are characters who have like flow metal body parts and they have prosthetics. And there could be part elements of this from this operating table that make him the hard to kill person that he is. Our producer Luna pointed out that Mark Strong and Desmond gets stabbed in a bait about the same place and Mark Strong is like killed in a matter of seconds or like 30 seconds, makes it to the spaceport and then still has this huge confrontation. But then is fine. But then is up and he's just holding up again and hugs open gut the whole time.

[Abu]

Bleeding, just bleeding.

[Leo]

He's holding the contents of his stomach in. He's like annoying whatever, you know, trained Bene Gesserit sister stabbed him in the stomach and it didn't kill him.

[Abu]

No. This is about as disappointing as the reveal of the blue eyes could have been, in my opinion. I would have much rather left this up to mystery and interpretation.

[Leo]

I agree.

[Abu]

I think that is the better than to get this level of reveal, this disappointing reveal.

[Leo]

I do think it would have been worse if it were the glowing two eyes of Erasmus or the glowing two eyes of the cymic body of Omnius or something like that. I think that would have been worse. This at least is like, okay, the thinking machine is the sort of misinterpretation and it is operating on behalf of some human who's guiding the thing. And we're going to find out who that person is or that you know, but Still, I think it would have been better to leave the eyes unanswered.

[Abu]

Open ended. Yeah, agreed.

[Leo]

Anyway.

[Abu]

Okay, let's wrap up this episode. Summary. Then. At the end of all of this, Tula reveals the truth about Desmond's identity as her son to Valya. In a heartbreaking moment, she also pleads and convinces with Valya to spare him. Let me handle this.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And shockingly, Valya, you know, to her credit, Valya does. And Valya leaves, walks away. Tula turns to her adult son, pulls him into a loving embrace.

[Leo]

Really sweet.

[Abu]

It's very sweet.

[Leo]

You can see it affects both of them deeply.

[Abu]

It was all over both of their faces, for sure.

[Leo]

I wrote in my notes. Is this the first hug Desmond's ever gotten?

[Abu]

Desmond's ever gotten? Maybe.

[Leo]

Yeah. He smears the Empress. Never been hugged, though. And honestly, long hug does a lot for the soul.

[Abu]

It can do a lot, folks. If you haven't had a long hug in a while, find one.

[Leo]

I came home the other night, my fiance gave me a hug. We hugged for, like two minutes straight, and I almost cried. It was great.

[Abu]

Long hugs, being embraced by someone you love is just. It's magical. Anyway, where were we?

[Leo]

Where were we? Where am I right now?

[Abu]

Desmond then immediately has his mom arrested. And that's where we end that.

[Leo]

That's what I did with my fiance, too. I had her arrested right after that. You got us.

[Abu]

Honestly, long hugs are illegal, folks.

[Leo]

Okay, criminal, get the fuck out of here. What are you hugging? A long time. Arrest whoever hugs you for that long suspense. Or prison right away.

[Abu]

And in the final moments of this season, we cut to Valya, Kieran, and Yanez landing on a planet we all know very well.

[Leo]

Poor Trin, Sandy.

[Abu]

They arrive on Arrakis, and Valya says, come on. Oh, my God. Come on. Just a little pit stop. And Valya says that this is where the next part of their journey begins. And this is where they will unpack the mysteries of this nanovirus, of the thinking machines and who's behind it all.

[Leo]

Yeah, the Silhouette, all of that.

[Abu]

Okay, that wraps up our summary of episode six of Dune Prophecy. Let's take a quick breather. But when we come back, folks, we will dig a little deeper into the things that worked, into the things that didn't work for us, and talk about this season as a whole. So we'll be back in just a minute.

[Leo]

Learn from the world's best all in one place with masterclass, the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays. Sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com Spotify for the current offer. That's up to 50 off. At masterclass.com Spotify.

[Abu]

We have one more act for you this evening. I don't even need to say his name.

[Leo]

Mr. Bob Dylan, a complete unknown, is now a Golden Globe in critics choice nominee for best picture. Bobby, what do you want to be? Whatever it is they don't want me to be. Timothy Chalamet astonishes as Bob Dylan Villa in one of the best performances of the year. And critics rave. Edward Norton is absolutely fantastic. 70,000 people are here and Bobby is the reason for it this Christmas.

[Abu]

They just want me singing, blowing in the wind for the rest of my life.

[Leo]

Don't miss the movie. Critics are hailing five stars. It's pure cinematic magic. Turn it down. Hey, laugh. And named to AFI and the National Board of Reviews. Top 10 films of the year.

[Abu]

Make some noise. BD track some mud on carpet.

[Leo]

A complete unknown. Only in theaters Christmas day. Rated R. Under 1790 meter without parrot. Welcome back, everybody. Okay, let's peel back the veil. Let's go beyond the veil, behind the veil, whatever they say. Let's talk about what worked, what didn't work, and let's start with what worked. I'll kick us off.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I just want to say first off that I love everything about Tula Harkonnen. I think Olivia Williams, the older actress, and Emma Canning, the younger actress, they both did such a fucking good job with their scenes. A lot of really excellent nuance to Tula's motivations, both in the present and also in these flashback sequences, I think. Just excellent. Also, I think the writing. I think the writing around Tula's character is really good. A lot of subtlety, a lot of nuance, and a lot of it gives more. The more time you spend with it and the more time you look at her earliest scenes and her latest scenes and how they all kind of relate to each other. Very, very good overall. Yeah, Now, I loved. I mentioned it earlier. I'll say it again. The visual representation of metabolizing the virus was so fucking smart, dude. I mean, first of all, Dr. Nasir I thought was great. I enjoyed her character quite a bit. Battling it out while the white and black specks are reflecting her success and failure was such a great way to show us that internal process. But then also it set up the snow metaphor when Valya is in her inner Lenka veil and the snow blowing past her are mixtures of the white and black particles. And we see literally the virus is represented this way for her and her internal world. It was so fucking good. So, so good. And more broadly, a huge shout out to the VFX team because from the agony sequence in what was that, Episode two, Episode three, to this internal Lankaveil sequence where she is herself begins to sort of dissolve into the wind as she lets the fear pass over and. Or through her in some sort of like fortune cookie of fear, whatever it's called. Really incredible. Really incredible stuff overall. Even the fold space effect in this episode where we see the high liner emerging from the darkness and all of the stars are kind of warping inward to this black. That was cool stuff. So incredible. I also like the change that Valya's inner circle witnessed her kill Dorothea. In the book, Valya kills Dorothea when they're alone in a room together. So it's really her building up her like, tiny trusted circle alone. And I think having her inner circle witness that does a lot, not only for her, not exactly being alone. Even if she has this kind of lone wolf mentality about getting what she wants above all others. I think it does a lot to provide motivation for the other characters to have their own doubts about her and their own agency, despite their collaboration. And whether that's Francesca actually loving Constantine actually loving Javiko, and then going, I'm going to have my own agency within your plots, Valya, and I'm going to step away from them when they don't serve me anymore.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

That is so much more understandable when she knows that Valya is doing the same thing with them. So saying, I know I didn't consult any of you when I fucking killed Dorothea and now you're in on the crime. Welcome to the conspiracy. So I thought that was excellent and I thought that did a. I think that broadly is a very strong change. And then finally, I want to say there's probably a lot of things I'm missing because I really did love a lot of little moments in this episode and in the series broadly. But I just want to shout out again, Chloe Leah or Chloe Lei as Lila.

[Abu]

Stunning.

[Leo]

Lila's actress did so much heavy lifting throughout this series, truly.

[Abu]

She had to be like four different people over the course of the season.

[Leo]

Four different people in one show and did a great job of it. So I really want to appreciate what Chloe was doing as the actress for Lila. I think Lila was a very fun character overall and I loved seeing her as Raquela her as Dorothea, how distinct they felt. I do have questions, lore based questions about like, how is Dorothea in charge for so long? I feel like we need another sentence or two, but ultimately. Hey, Chloe, great job.

[Abu]

Knocked it out of the park.

[Leo]

Yeah. Lila is a character I thought was quite fun. So that's a lot of what I liked. Again, there's probably a lot that I'm missing, but broadly, that's what I liked. What about you?

[Abu]

Well, I actually second your entire list there. I agree with all of the things you shouted out and I don't want to waste time repeating stuff. So actually I'm going to do something different. Our producer Luna had also written down her notes in our script here, and I want to shout out and share some of Luna's things because I think Luna brought up some excellent points here as well. So, for example, Luna wrote that she really liked the Valya fight scene at the end, that confrontation between Valya and Desmond and Desmond's guards, and her use of the voice lore issues aside, it was just cool to watch her go defend me. And then the guard turns around and immediately starts fighting for her like, hell. Yeah, that's dope. It was just fun to see how scary Valya can actually be when you actually have to get down to brass tacks and face off against her and how devastating the voice in the context of how it's used in the show can be. So I definitely agree with Luna's take there. Luna also wanted to shout out Sister Jen, and I agree. I really enjoyed Sister Jen throughout this whole season. I think even all the way back in episode one, I was like, my. My girl. Sister Jen shouts like, everybody needs a coworker like Jen. She continued to be that excellent coworker that everybody deserves to have. She's there when you need her. She supports you. She goes above and beyond. She's willing to keep your secrets. She's also willing to call out the bullshit when the bullshit's there. So I really enjoyed Sister Jen as well, and I'm glad that Luna shouted her out in her notes here. Okay, let's flip the coin then. What didn't work for you?

[Leo]

Okay, well, so much about Brian Herbert, I cannot, dear listener, I cannot stress enough how my least favorite things about this series and this episode in particular are one for one, all over Brian's books.

[Abu]

Yeah, Brian's DNA is all over this show in many ways, especially this final episode.

[Leo]

And in the worst ways, like, okay, giving a list, incomplete story arcs. Oh my God, they are all over Brian's Books. And I've had people push back on that comment saying, well, they're a trilogy. You have to read the whole trilogy for blah, blah, blah. That's normal. But hey, you know what else is a trilogy? Dune, Messiah and Children of Dune and, and each of those are self contained, enjoyable stories with beginnings, middles and ends.

[Abu]

You can stop at any point in that trilogy and still walk away satisfied with a great story.

[Leo]

With a great story versus you have to read the next book to understand what's going to happen next or to have any of your questions answered. Is certainly not what I like. I don't want to say it's bad. It's just not what I prefer. I want to have. I want to like, let's say life gets in the way. I don't want to be like, well, fuck, I wasted all that time on 1600 pages of fucking sisterhood and mint hats and I didn't read Navigator, so, oh, well, I guess I don't know what happens to any of those characters. That's dumb. I don't like that. That's awful.

[Abu]

Especially because the book is just debating, right? Like that. It's just like classic sequel baiting. You got to buy my next book.

[Leo]

Yeah, the next thing. Gore and violence. And I say this because the Dune saga, of course, Dune, Messiah, children, God, Emperor, isn't like lacking violence or killing. But the nature of the violence is always second to the motivations that drive the violence. Right. Frank is pretty sparing in his descriptions of gore, you know, descriptions of how people are killed and where the knife kills him, blah, blah, blah. Because the gore isn't the point. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson do a lot of like gross torture shit. You know, people like breaking fingers and healing them and then breaking them again and ha ha ha ha. And if you want a visual indication of this, look at this fucking eyeball scene where the eyeball gets pulled out. You get the things injected into the visual stem and then the whatever the. And then the view from the eyeball of the face with the eye. It's like so unnecessary. It made me uncomfortable. And I get that some people like body horror and stuff, but that's why there are authors who. That's their whole kind of gimmick and their shtick. The fact that this is then being introduced to the Dune universe is. Continues to be upsetting also because there's like a disproportionate amount of like women being killed and murdered in Brian's books. That again, is cheap. It's just, it's Shallow. It's.

[Abu]

Anyway, I mean, Yanez becoming a damsel in distress in this episode when she had such potential at the start of this show.

[Leo]

Yeah. Now, Dune lore problems. There are so many I could bring up, so many I could list out in this particular episode. I really think other memory continues to be a deep frustration for me because it continues to be like a catalyst and a way that people are deciding things, which is just makes the issues with it front and center. For anybody who knows what other memory is like, there are huge problems with what characters know what. And at a certain point I just go, anybody who has other memory knows everything or knows exactly what they need to to make whatever decision is going to be decided, needs to happen without any. It's like Lila slash Dorothea should not know where the bodies are, period. And I. If there's a reason that she does know, it has to give me it because saying it's because of her other memory. Yeah, yeah. There are no stakes, no stakes of a war of information if people just know things. Tula arrives. This is a little, maybe harder to notice. Tula arrives at the lockdown spaceport and her other memory voices go, your sister is near. Go to her. How? What is other memory? What is other memory? At this point, it's a chat room. It's a Discord server that you join when you awaken. What is this? And again, I don't want to dwell on this, but the fact that this ends up being plot critical many times in Brian's books continues to be so frustrating because again, it's like people are revealed secrets that they shouldn't know because of X, Y and Z. And that motivates them to do X, Y and Z. Other memory is very important in the Dune universe, but it is never as mission critical or as the point as it is in Brian's books. And in this show, this sixth episode did a lot of that, which really frustrates me. And then finally, things that Brian's books are really frustrating about are just technological things. Like the little camera that Hara Harkonnen uses is clearly like a thinking machine, or is a thinking machine. It self assembles, it disassembles, it records video and audio, but seems to track people. It is so clearly a thinking machine. But then why?

[Abu]

Certainly smarter than a leopard gecko transformer, which is just a toy.

[Leo]

Which is just a toy. So why does Desmond use it? Why is he okay with that piece of technology? And if it's not a thinking machine, fucking what is it? I was thinking, oh, it's like a memory crystal that just, like, maybe captures vibrations and it's, you know, and then you replay the vibrations and that sound and. Oh, cool. But no, it's just like a dissembling robot. And this broader complaint is that, like, Brian's books are full of these technological pieces where a character will say, in my records, I found an image of this person. And you go, what records? How did you search records for a photo taken by someone on a different planet without a computer? And that's the only reason a character will know what another character looks like is because they, like, looked it up in a system that doesn't have any type of computer. It happens frequently, and it is the sort of thing that you kind of just become numb to after a book. It's just these are plot critical elements that are clearly not being considered, are clearly not carefully built into the universe. They just appear when they need to, they do what they need to do, and everything moves forward. And that little recordy thing is exactly that and is, again, just feels like Brian stuff through and through. So, yes. Anyway, TED Talk aside, I know that I'm supposed to talk about things I don't like, but I do want to end my list of things that I don't like by saying I think this show was, like, one or two degrees off of being really good. I think there were some really great ideas. If I wasn't as bothered by Lore stuff as I was, I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more. I know we've heard that in our community, too. Like, Dune fans are going to be more critical of this than the average viewer, because we're out here critiquing things like other memory, when other viewers can just let it be a thing that they don't fully understand. But that's okay. So at the end of the day, I think the show was not far off from being a great thing. But for sure, this final episode didn't land the ship the way I wanted it to.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

What about you? What do you think?

[Abu]

Well, I am once again going to share some of Luna's notes because I will be getting into my overall issues with the series a little bit later in our takeaways, so I'll dig a little bit deeper there. But I will say, in short, I think we've kind of been falling on two sides of the aisle in our entire coverage of this show. And now that we've watched the whole first season, I can pretty confidently say that I didn't like this show. And I actually think it was One or two degrees from even being good, let alone great. You know, I think it landed in the bad camp for me. And I'll get into that a little bit later in my takeaways. But Luna noted the Face Tantra thing and the Havoco stabbing himself thing that we already touched on earlier. She also texted me this hilarious SNL sketch that I'd never seen called Dear Sister.

[Leo]

You hadn't seen that? That's so funny.

[Abu]

And she was basically like, this episode, Episode six was just the Dear Sister sketch happening. And I was like, I don't know what that means, Luna. And so she sent me the link and I watched it and I was like, luna, you're fucking spot on. Yeah, that's exactly what's happening.

[Leo]

Death after death after death.

[Abu]

Yeah, and not even death, but just like plot after plot after plot, because we just need it to happen. We need to get somewhere with this. We need to force a conclusion to happen. And like the sketch, I recommend people go watch that sketch because it'll make sense what Luna was getting at here. This episode completely felt like that sketch where we just worked backwards, did completely illogical, irrational things. The characters made choices that made utterly no sense, many of which we've talked about in our summary just so we could get to the end point of a script that we had written, regardless of whether it was satisfying or logical or conclusive in any way, which I don't think it was. And so I agree with Luna's hilarious take there that this episode in particular felt like watching an SNL sketch. Yeah, and I walked away from the show pretty disappointed. But I guess that kind of segues us nicely into talking about the show zooming out in general, zooming out away from episode six, and maybe talking about this entire first season of Dune television and perhaps getting into our deeper takeaways on it and our concluding thoughts about Dune prophecy, season one.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I definitely had my laundry list of Brian Herbert complaints that went on for a while. So why don't you kick us off? Okay, yeah, talk to me about overall season takeaway. What kind of points are you bringing away from this?

[Abu]

So, zooming out. Like I stated a minute ago, I gotta ultimately, unfortunately conclude that this was a largely forgettable season of Dune television. For me personally, it kind of veered anywhere from middling to outright bad for me. And I had stated this on one of our livestream Q&As a few weeks back, but if this wasn't Dune, this is not a show I would have wasted my time with. I certainly would not have made it past episode two. It's really the Dune world building, the visuals, the lore stuff, and frankly, like our conversations together, our livestreams with our Discord fans, and the interactions online with the community that kept me coming back. That's where most like 90% of my enjoyment with this show lived. Watching the show itself was a chore for me, unfortunately. And getting to talk about it, theorize about it, that's where the. The fun of it was for me. So what do I mean by that? I do think this show committed two major sins this season that if they had been different, if different creative choices had been made, I think would have made for a better and more compelling season of Dune television. So getting into those sin number one, I think the show lost sight of themes in favor of lore. As you talked about with the issues in Brian's books, much like Brian's books, I think this show doesn't have the conviction to say a whole lot of anything and therefore kind of ends up being about nothing. Like it's empty calories that fail to nourish the mind and the soul. Like a Frank Herbert story does. Frank's books in fact stand the test of time because they have things to say. Frank had strong convictions and beliefs and things to say, and he said them via his characters and plots and world building.

[Leo]

Yeah, like spicy takes.

[Abu]

These are exactly like. These are things that we've talked about endlessly on this podcast. These themes around ecology, religion, politics, charismatic leaders, stagnation, the trap of foresight. All of these ideas are baked into the story and world of Frank Herbert's books. None of these themes that in my opinion, make Dune Dune are present in this show in any meaningful way. There are some sort of half hearted and shallow nods towards some of these ideas maybe, but they aren't meaningfully explored or present in this show in any way. I will say I think that one theme that is somewhat consistent across this season is the theme of fear. But as we sort of discussed earlier, even fear ends up being just this, like, MacGuffin plot device that explains a virus, that explains the origin of a lore litany. Oops, I'm sorry. Fortune cookie that we see later. That's a good word.

[Leo]

Fortune cookie. Yeah, fortune cookie.

[Abu]

So rather than being a theme that is explored and underpins and binds this series together, it primarily serves the lore instead.

[Leo]

Yeah, I was gonna say, because even, like, there's no slam dunk on any of those themes. Like, even if you. I talk about women trying to carve out their agency within A male's political universe. Or you talk about what is truth and lie and how do you trust and what does truth mean? That none of the. There, many of them are there, but they're not. Like, they don't end up being the reason for anything. They're just kind of there, wonderfully present. And it's like, okay, I'm glad they're there. I am. But I feel like in the same way that Mikaela's response to Desmond had an opportunity for a really poignant point about colonizers and oppressors and your people as Fremen and how do they relate to a sisterhood? The organization, the sisterhood. What a great opportunity that we didn't capitalize on, that we didn't utilize.

[Abu]

We didn't hit that slam dunk.

[Leo]

Right. And that is, that would be a point where I'm fairly confident Frank Herbert would have delivered a two page slam dunk. Leito going just to. I actually, I had another thought about that. Moneo, come here.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. Wonderfully put, Leah. I, I couldn't agree more. I think the show ended up being, again, much like the Bryant books. These are many criticisms that we've levied against Brian Books too. The show ended up being too preoccupied with the lore of it all, wanting to show us the origins of things like the Litany or a proto Kwisatz Haderach or maybe the Sardaukar. Seeing a Gom Jabbar on screen, seeing the Voice in action, look, it's an Ixian look, it's a Mentat look, it's a Tleilaxu. A lot of that was happening in the show rather than, say, exploring in any meaningful way the relationship between humanity and advanced technology.

[Leo]

Right. What a great opportunity.

[Abu]

Lots of opportunities to explore that here. We never actually slam dunk. We never get that ball in the net or. The example you gave earlier was wonderful. How do women arrest agency in a deeply patriarchal and feudalistic society that arises after a horrifying war against machines? Natalia would have been the vessel for us to explore something like that. And yet we don't. Maybe we make some sort of like, nod toward it, but it doesn't go anywhere and it certainly isn't the motivation for any of the characters to do anything. So that was a big issue for me. I think one of the biggest sins this show committed. And I can give a counterexample of a show that absolutely fucking crushed this. I recently watched the excellent Mr. And Mrs. Smith on Amazon. It's a show starring Maya Erskine and Donald Glover. It came out at the start of 2024. That show, the plot, you know, whatever, it's about a married couple who are super spies and live together and do missions together. None of that really fucking matters because what the show is about is love and the messiness of romantic relationships and exploring all the highs and lows of what the reality is when you commit your life to someone every episode. All eight of those episodes in that season are underpinned with this throughline. And the season as a whole is bound together by that idea, by that strong central theme. Dune. Prophecy, in my opinion, utterly lacks that and suffers greatly for it. So that's sin number one. Sin number two that I wanted to touch on is this show, and we've said this in previous episodes, this season was too reliant on future seasons for its storytelling. You know, I won't harp on this too much because I've kind of been ringing this alarm bell since episode two. I brought this up like the show's trying to do too much in too little time and is not moving at the correct pace. And it doesn't seem to acknowledge the fact that it's only six episodes. The question I'm left with at the end of this first season is, was this a political show about Corrino Palacentry? Was this a dark and heartbreaking journey of two young girls who are battling their family trauma and finding a new purpose in life? Was this a show about a mysterious man with unprecedented abilities showing up and completely destabilizing a young, budding imperium? Wait, maybe this show was actually about an utterly mismanaged and misguided rebellion facing the harsh realities of creating real systemic change, which doesn't come easy. And the answer kind of is like, this show is literally all of those and none of those all at once. It attempts to juggle so many different stories and characters and plotlines that all of the stories and characters and plot lines suffer because of that. And by the end of these six episodes, we're left with, I don't know, a dozen loose plot threads. And we've had all of these meaningless scenes that set up future stuff that might happen. Harrow with a fucking recorder thrown into this last episode that don't go anywhere, and that's not satisfying. What did I watch six episodes for if we're just setting things up for the future? For a lot of it, it's deeply unsatisfying to watch. And again, the example I can give is Mr. And Mrs. Smith, folks, go watch this incredible show straddles this line perfectly. It creates this amazing ARC 8 episode arc in its first season with a beginning, middle, end, highs, lows, climax, drama. All of that takes place in eight episodes. And yet you walk away from that first season of Mr. And Mrs. Smith with plenty of little mysteries that you're just dying to know about in the future. Mysteries that were not plot critical to what took place in this first season, but mysteries that will certainly be exciting to unpack in the future.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

That is what this show needed to do. And in fact, it almost did the exact opposite of that. Forgot to tell a tight, satisfying narrative with a beginning, middle, end in one season and instead entirely only set up future stuff to happen. And ultimately that for me is deeply unsatisfying to watch.

[Leo]

Yeah, sure.

[Abu]

All of that being said, I know I've been talking for a while, so I will wrap up all of that being said, I too want to end a long list of criticisms On a positive note, I truly, unironically and passionately hope that this show gets renewed. Because even bad shows deserve a second chance. Even bad shows deserve to find their footing. It is rare that you hit a home run on the first season of.

[Leo]

Your show, especially among a production timeline that was like as you've said before, a death sentence for most shows. Show happened, maybe suffered because of it, probably definitely suffered because of it.

[Abu]

Definitely suffered because of it. And look, I have a long list of criticisms that I for the last six weeks now and many episodes of this podcast I've been listing, but the show is not irredeemable. Despite all of the things I've talked about, there are glimmers of greatness shining between the cracks of all of the other issues all throughout this season. Episode three, for me personally was a huge standout and showed the true potential of this show. I want those little pieces of greatness to have a chance to flourish, to get the opportunity to break through and take center stage. A lot of very passionate and talented and hardworking people worked to make this show. And the truth is, the reality is nobody sets out on a project like this to make a bad TV show. And as you stated, there were production issues. It's actually kind of a small miracle this show ever even came out, that this show even exists at all, because the production issues that Dune Prophecy had for many years are practically a death knell for most productions. So it's a miracle that came out. And all I will say is I hope there are more miracles in store for this show, for this team, for this production, and I would love for them to get the chance to take another crack at this in season two.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed.

[Abu]

And that's my takeaway. Those are my big picture thoughts on season one of Dune Prophecy. I'm curious where things have landed for you and how you're feeling walking away from it.

[Leo]

Well, so I think first I enjoyed the series. I really resonate with a lot of what you're saying, especially when it comes to missed opportunities. I think that broadly, although I very much enjoyed certain elements of it. When we start having conversations about like how could that conversation have gone or how could this character have been utilized or what modern issues like artificial intelligence or like GPT or like whatever, how could those have been examined through a fun critical lens that asks hard questions and doesn't necessarily provide easy answers? I am more disappointed than I would be otherwise. And that's a tough feeling. Now, I am still very glad that we got this series and there is a very real possibility of us not getting the series at all, considering especially the production timeline. And so in the grand scheme of things, I'm really glad we got it. I just hope that how it turned out isn't the reason it doesn't get greenlit. Because I think if it gets greenlit and there's some real enthusiasm behind a season two, it could be excellent. I did want to take a step back and look at like we had Matt C. In Discord was like he said, I already forgot the original plot was to get a sister on the throne, end quote. Which, yeah, you know, that's fair. You'd be forgiven for forgetting that. That is the mission statement. And I think that with some of the context that we finally have after this final episode, I wanted to take a step back and kind of state in my own words what I think this show was about. Like what I think the kind of heartbeat of the show was.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So my thesis for what Dune Prophecy is about is that for the last 30 years, the sisterhood has been led by a vengeful, single minded and ruthless Valya Harkonnen who is driven by hatred, anger and a belief that generally might makes right. And that's it. She has the fear of Arafel, she has the desire for an empress that is within the under the wing of the Bene Gesserit. But those things are secondary to the fact that she is doing what she can to progress her own interests and to progress what she thinks is right. And Valya's approach to leadership, I think mirrors her approach to problem solving. Like we see in Episode six, this conversation she's having with her collaborators in Anirole going, how do we get control? How do we face the reckoning? We do it through this. What was it? Age of empires. Three kings of Crusader Kings 3. Crusader Kings 3. She's like, this Crusader Kings 3 campaign is how we get in control. And it is all about that sort of like straightforward approach to strength and.

[Abu]

Wait. Holy shit. Breaking news.

[Leo]

Oh.

[Abu]

Hollywood reporter Dune prophecy renewed for season two at hbo.

[Leo]

Oh, shit. Are you serious?

[Abu]

Literally, as we are recording, I just scrolled on my phone and saw that.

[Leo]

Well, folks, now you know, Abu doesn't listen to me when I'm talking.

[Abu]

Yeah, I was dune scrolling on my phone a little bit.

[Leo]

Dune.

[Abu]

Holy shit.

[Leo]

Deadline too.

[Abu]

Showrunner Allison Schapker announces the pickup a few days ahead of the first season finale.

[Leo]

Let's.

[Abu]

Let's go.

[Leo]

Yeah. Woo. Shoo. God damn. That puts a very interesting energy to this conversation we're having.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

All right, so let's start again at the top of the episode, huh?

[Abu]

Genuinely so happy to hear that. Incredible. Yeah, we gotta re record this whole episode.

[Leo]

All right. No, just kidding.

[Abu]

Wow. That's great news. Genuinely great news. You know, honestly, this doesn't change this episode discussion today for me at all, really. My criticism still stands about season one, but I am so happy, so, so genuinely happy that the show will get another chance to swing for the fences. Let's fucking go. I'm ready.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. Especially if Alison Schapker is still attached to it. Like, show us what you can do when you've got everything together. Right. Like, no one wants a complicated production timeline. As you were saying. Like, no one aims to make a bad show. And I think at the end of the day, the fact that it's been greenlit this early and that they've already assembled the cast and they already have all these questions answered, it's like, yes, yes. Good. Okay. Sweet.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The only thing I would say that changes here is that our verbiage would be, okay, now we know this is happening and I guess some piece of this will still be in the episode. So.

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm gonna leave most of that in.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, gold. Podcast gold. Excellent.

[Abu]

Podcast gold. Like, folks, we capture that raw in the moment. That was totally, literally me just ignoring Leo and scrolling on my phone. Let that be a lesson that.

[Leo]

Okay, I'll try to make better points. Jesus. Fuck. Scytale is the best character in tune. You intrigued?

[Abu]

Okay, let me put my phone down. Oh, gosh. Amazing. Okay, well, I still Think your takeaway stands as well about episode six.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, back to my thoughts about this first of two seasons. Oh, that's going to make my second takeaway really funny. Okay. Well, Valya's approach to leadership, I think, mirrors her approach to problem solving. It's this, like, strong, focused, straightforward approach to fixing things. And for instance, she describes Havoco a man quote, more prone to stability than strength, end quote, as literally being weak and unfit for rule. Now, is she saying that just to upset him and to be thrown in prison? Maybe. But ultimately, I think it's telling that she thinks that someone who is stable and reliable is weak and ultimately unfit for rule. That's how she views leadership. Now, she uses the mantra sisterhood above all regularly, but also regularly makes decisions, both in the book and in the series, driven by her desire for revenge against House Atreides and for the rise of House Harkonnen, basically. I also think that her final kind of agony quote, unquote, against the RNA retrovirus in this episode shows us at her core, Vali is still very much that young woman. She's kind of frozen in her views of the world on Lankaveil right after, you know, saving Griffin, but still very much afraid of being wrong. She still, like, ties her identity very much to Griffin Harkonnen and that moment. And I still think of her as that, like, kind of frozen in development young woman. She's not. Oh, she hasn't gotten wise in her older years. It's a lot of the same mentalities there.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

And we even see a glimpse of that when Evgeny Harkonnen calls her out on some of it. We see how much it shakes her when he goes, you're the one that killed Griffin. And we see her, you know, I will not apologize for my strength. She says too defensively. All right, Valya. All right, Covering it up sounds like.

[Abu]

Someone who maybe hasn't come to peace with their baggage.

[Leo]

Yeah, it sounds like someone who should probably apologize for their strength also. Especially because your strength keeps getting people killed. Now, in this episode, we see Francesca basically secure the purported goal of the sisterhood. And I recognize there is definitely some ambiguity here because we don't get Havoco explicitly saying, I'm gonna make you the Empress. But when she approaches Valya, she's like, my imprint holds. We've got it. How about I do this? Or how about I leverage my control over him to let go? You know, release Yanez. And when she tells Valya that, Valya's like, no, I'm not Having it. Because ultimately, I think that's not actually Valya's goal. This is also when she suggests changing tactics again, just redefining the goalposts so that she can kind of continue to lead the party. And on one level, like, maybe she doesn't have any faith that he will ultimately reject Desmond Hart. But then later, when he literally asks her for her support, like, hey, buy in with me. Come back. I'm so sorry. Help me defeat Desmond Hart. Even then, she really takes the time to, like, dig into him. And instead of just being like, no, we can't do that, and ultimately, I came here today to kill you, and then he could have arrested her again. It all just feels very personal and very petty.

[Abu]

Yes, absolutely.

[Leo]

So I think that is what I would say the show is about, is about Valya being driven more than she expects by fear, by the fear of being that person who got Gryffin killed for no reason. I think she is trying to prove herself to everyone around her, but mostly herself. And she's also not buying her own bullshit. And I think that's the story that we got. And I think that's, like, broadly a pretty compelling story. I do feel like when she tells Tula, I'm no longer afraid. That is the moment that many of us were hoping for to have this, like, Vali has arrived, and now she's in a new stage of her life, and that's what this season brought us. That being said, we were promised a lot more, or at least we were hinted at, getting a lot more from the universe, from these other characters again, characters like Ines, who could have had this great, long Runway and great character development. Or characters like Constantine, who took up maybe too much space in the earlier episodes. But as we were talking about with Nerd Cookies in our livestream on Thursday, Constantine and his scenes with Francesca were really heartfelt and like, we're great, but we're getting them after multiple episodes of him being kind of a lame duck character who's just one note, really good to look at. Just so good to look at a sexy duck. A sexy lame duck. Just us. The lamest, sexiest duck. I mean, quack, quack. Constantine, I've got some bread crumbs for you.

[Abu]

I'll spread my feathers for you. Or whatever ducks do.

[Leo]

Whatever ducks do. Yeah. So that's my first takeaway is I think the show, broadly, is about Valya and that kind of journey that she goes on with incidental moments from Tula and some of her supporting cast.

[Abu]

I think you're Absolutely right.

[Leo]

My second takeaway is titled, Holy hell, please be greenlit for a season two.

[Abu]

You manifested it.

[Leo]

Which I manifested, because midway through take one, I discover. Greenlit for a season two. Good Lord. And, hey, listeners, we recorded this, like, six days ago, so this is breaking news for us, which is very exciting. So I'll say. Wow, I'm so glad I get to say this. Now that we know there's a season two, let's take a look at the characters and plot elements. Look how easy this flows. Let's take a look. Now that we know there's a season two, listeners, let's take a look.

[Abu]

You wrote a really flexible script here. You know, listen. Column A, Column B, you have poison. It works for either.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This finale leaves a number of characters floating. So in season two, let's talk about who gets developed, who gets resolved, what happens. Okay.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I'm going to group this by the planets that we have looked at, and let's look at kind of the state of things and how they can launch us into a second season. So.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Wallach 9, Dorotea seems to be fully back via Lila, unsure if she's gonna relinquish control again. Maybe that could be a fun plot thing where occasionally she's Rachella. Knowing that she's been controlled by Dorotea and then working against everything else like, that could be cool. She's destroyed the thinking machine records at the heart of the sisterhood. She's obviously super anti Valya. And while Gen seems loyal to Tula, the Harkonnen sisters probably aren't going to be welcome back on Wallach 9 anytime soon. Which is good, because one's in prison and one's on Arrakis.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Next up, we have Solusis Secundus. On Seleucus Secundus, we've got Tula and Theodosia, who are both in suspenser cells, probably because that's the only type of prison we've been shown so far. The Emperor is dead. He's been tragically murdered, folks. I don't know if you heard, a Sisterhood member stabbed him before Empress Natalia bravely rushed in and killed her with a needle that she boldly assumed had poison on it. Now, you might be wondering if Natalia is the acting Empress. What's going on with Yanez? Well, unsure.

[Abu]

How do you spin that story?

[Leo]

How do you spin that? I see two probable ways it gets spun. Either Natalia puts absolutely everything on the sisterhood and says, hey, I know Yanez has been seen off world with, you know, Reverend Mother Valya Harkonnen. She's been taken hostage and she's been tricked, blah, blah, blah. Her mind has been corrupted and we need to save her. Or depending on how far the Natalia ines like rift has drifted, maybe. Natalia says. Honestly, it pains me to say this, but Yanez is now an enemy. Yanez is now an enemy of the state. She's defected. Yeah, something like that. She too long was under the tutelage of the Bene Gesserit and participated, in fact, in the murder of her own father. And that's why we need to bring her in or whatever. So there's a lot of ways that that could be handled. Now, of course, at Natalia's right hand spot, we have Desmond plot Armor Hart. He's a recent guest on Intergalactic Mori and recently has reconnected with his biological mother, but is not very happy about it. You know, again, he has also learned, let's not forget, he has learned from Valya and Tula that his power is not a God given gift. That it was given to him by someone using a thinking machine, and that it uses thinking machines. Does this mean Desmond will no longer use his power? Does this mean as a man with strong convictions, he will abandon those things? Or like Manfred Toronto, is he just going to move the goalpost and be still the kind of asshole that he is?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

We'll see. Although I'm pretty confident that with Travis Flamel as the character, I'm going to enjoy whatever he does. Very fun. Also on Salusa Secundus, worth mentioning, Haru Harkonnen now has incriminating footage of his Aunt Valya. So we will see what happens, how that plays out with that. Yeah. And then finally, we have Arrakis. A planet we had not yet seen, but now we get to see it. Valya, Yanez and Kiran have just landed and they are going to be hunting down the source of Desmond's thinking machine powers and that mysterious silhouette who overlooked the operation that presumably saved his life and gave him these powers. Constantine is also kicking around somewhere. He again, if my understanding of the timeline's right, he's on Arrakis or near it, with.

[Abu]

I think they'll link up with him.

[Leo]

With the Emperor's fleet. That's what I'm thinking. Because also our guy, although he betrayed Kieran, the last thing he was told by his now late mother was your goal in life is to protect Ynez. And we know that that's something that he already felt very strongly about. So I'M pretty confident he's going to come around. He'll be Yanez's ally, and he's got this big chunk of the Emperor's forces. Maybe he and Yanez vie for the throne even though they're not on Salusis Secundus. So a few ways that that could play out. But looking back for a second on the questions that we wanted answered in episode five of our coverage, this series did manage to give us some of what we wanted. We got a resolution to what the ayes were. We have answers about Desmond, some of them. We have a more or less complete emotional journey for Valya from this person who had fear kind of lurking in the back of her mind about, did I cause Griffin's death? All of this different stuff. And now she has this new coping mechanism that in theory will make her immune to Desmond in the future, which also makes her unbeatable. So there is this, you know, we have some of the things we wanted, but definitely, like, the can has been kicked down the road regarding some of the bigger questions we had. And I would say especially, and this is unfortunate, but especially with the reveal that Desmond's repair surgery was a thinking machine at the hands of some other thing. I feel like this is leaning very heavily toward Omnius or Erasmus as the future big bad, which is super unfortunate because they're really big bad, dumb characters. I think, broadly, whatever it turns out to be, I'm right there with you, Abu, that I want more Dune. And I'm so glad that the season got greenlit when it did, because I also don't know what the reaction to this finale is going to be. And ultimately, even if people are disappointed with it, I think we can all unanimously say, well, okay, that might not have been what all of us wanted, but let's be excited that there is an opportunity to tell more stories within the Dune universe in season two.

[Abu]

I was gonna say, like, quite strategic to announce a season two before the finale, perhaps, because, oh, maybe, yeah, like, it does sort of cushion the fall of some of the disappointment. Right. Like, a lot of people might go into this season finale and go, damn, I'm disappointed. I'm certainly one of those people, right? Like, I. I walked away being, like, not what I wanted, but now you get the silver lining of, but maybe I'll get more of what I wanted in season two. Or, like, maybe there will be resolution to the, like, dozen or so loose threads we've scattered across the playing field and left dangling. Now, instead of being just utterly disappointed a dozen times Over. I can go. Okay. I'm excited to see how they pick up some of these threads in season two.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

It does cushion the fall a bit.

[Leo]

Well. And I was gonna say smart.

[Abu]

Smart on them.

[Leo]

Very smart on them. And I was gonna say that would probably be one of the differences if we re recorded this episode. Some of what I understood was some of your frustrations were how many things they were banking on for a season two, and now they know there's a season two. So it's like, for sure. The scenes that they spent setting up things that we don't get resolutions for. Cool. We will now maybe get resolutions for them. And if the results or if the kind of reception to this episode, this season, this finale is less than desired, maybe season two, they'll be a little bit more careful with what they leave floating and what they resolve. You never want to again. If you can make a season two that's great and stands alone and is excellent. Do that. But maybe they also will know, hey, we might not be renewed for like, seven more seasons based on the reception so far. Let's make sure this one's good and make sure that this one resolves things.

[Abu]

You're always recalibrating that dial.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Like any sort of creative work that goes into a public space and gets immediate feedback because we live in 2024 and the Internet is a thing. Twitter, you're always recalibrating that dialogue to and figuring out the push and pull of a creative venture and how it's received and how the business aspect will play. So I think you're spot on. I think the approach to season two, my gut instinct is, will be quite different. Yeah. And hopefully smoother, given that now that they know it's happening.

[Leo]

No kidding.

[Abu]

And we have a showrunner who hopefully stays on and we have a cast that is locked into this production, presumably assuming no extenuating circumstances. Like things are quite locked in now. And now you get to, like, the foundation is built. Now you build. Now you build. On top of that, you build the house. And so that does open the doors for large improvements to some of the low points of this first season.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, that's. Oh, my gosh. That's our episode with a bombshell. Breaking news the last quarter midway through. That's incredible.

[Abu]

Wow. What a podcast moment.

[Leo]

Very proud, very happy.

[Abu]

That's fun. Yeah. Very happy about that news.

[Leo]

Well, before we let you go, dear listener, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us and the two best Ways to Support us are one, to become a patron over at Patreon.com gomjabbar or check out our Dune themed swag from our merch store. It's a little late for holiday shopping, but hey, you know, there's always next year. That's right. Ultimately, those links are in the show notes, so if either of those sound interesting to you, check them out.

[Abu]

Check them out. And of course, we love to hear from you. One of the best parts of this experience, as I said earlier, has been chatting with other Dune fans online in our discord with our patrons. With you, Leo, one on one. Yeah, that, that has been the part of this experience I've enjoyed the most. And I would love to keep that going. So email us comjabarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your theories, send us what you hope to see from season two. Now that it's been greenlit, let us know how we can cover season two, which we absolutely will, even better than we covered season one. Give us all that feedback. We love all of that. Go to our [e-mail] as the place to keep the conversation going with us. We'd love to hear.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Press Party podcast network on laurparty.com. you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. Thank you. You can also watch video versions of select episodes on the Lore Party YouTube channel. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.