Exhalation by Ted Chiang

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast Episode: Exhalation by Ted Chiang
Release Date: August 8, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo

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Episode Overview

In this unexpected episode of Gom Jabbar, hosts Abu and Leo venture away from their usual deep dives into the Dune universe to explore Ted Chiang's acclaimed short story collection, Exhalation. Despite the shift in focus, the hosts seamlessly interweave Dune themes throughout their discussion, maintaining the podcast's signature analytical depth.

Detailed Discussion of Ted Chiang's Exhalation

1. The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate ([07:11] Leo)

Summary:
Set in a mythical Baghdad, the story follows merchant Fouad IBN Abbas who encounters a time-traveling gate crafted by an alchemist. The narrative unfolds through nested stories of various users of the gate, emphasizing the theme of determinism—highlighting that while one can observe past and future events, altering them remains impossible.

Key Points & Insights:

• Determinism: The gate represents an unchangeable timeline; attempts to alter the past invariably lead to the same outcomes.
• Cultural Respect: Abu praises the story's respectful portrayal of Islamic and Eastern cultures, noting its deep emotional resonance.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu ([10:36] Abu): "Past and future are the same and we cannot change either, only know them more fully. My journey to the past had changed nothing, but what I learned had changed everything."

Connections to Dune:

• The immutable nature of time echoes themes from Dune, particularly in Paul Atreides' struggles with prescience and fate.

2. Exhalation ([07:11] Leo)

Summary:
Centered on a mechanical being in a sealed world, the story delves into its quest to understand memory by dissecting its own brain. This introspective journey leads to the discovery of the universe's slow depletion of air pressure, serving as an allegory for entropy.

Key Points & Insights:

• Entropy and Consciousness: The narrative explores the finite nature of existence and the essence of consciousness.
• Self-Discovery: The protagonist's self-examination mirrors themes of acceptance and understanding life's inevitable changes.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([22:04] Leo): "Every utterance will reduce the amount of air left for thought and bring us closer to the moment when our thoughts cease altogether."

Emotional Impact:

• Both hosts express profound admiration for the story's ability to evoke deep emotional responses and philosophical contemplation.

3. What's Expected of Us ([32:04] Abu)

Summary:
A concise three-page tale introducing the Predictor, a device that sends signals back in time, rendering true free will an illusion. The story culminates in a powerful revelation that even warnings cannot alter predetermined events.

Key Points & Insights:

• Free Will vs. Determinism: Challenges the notion of autonomy by presenting undeniable proof of predestined actions.
• Psychological Impact: Explores the paralysis and existential crisis that can arise from recognizing the absence of free will.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([33:16] Leo): "This wasn't harmful until you believed it."

Emotional Reaction:

• The hosts describe the story as a "gut punch," highlighting its emotional and philosophical weight despite its brevity.

4. The Lifecycle of Software Objects ([41:30] Leo)

Summary:
This novella-length story tracks the development of AI entities known as digiants and the ethical dilemmas faced by their human caretakers, Anna and Derek. It delves into themes of parenting, artificial intelligence ethics, and the evolution of consciousness.

Key Points & Insights:

• Parenting and AI: Examines the responsibilities and moral considerations in raising intelligent artificial beings.
• Ethical Dilemmas: Addresses complex issues such as consent, autonomy, and the commercialization of AI.
• Personal Growth: The relationship dynamics between Anna and Derek add layers of emotional complexity to the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu ([57:01] Abu): "Experience isn't merely the best teacher, it's the only teacher."

Connections to Dune:

• The ethical considerations and evolution of AI echo the moral and philosophical inquiries present in the Dune series, particularly concerning power and humanity.

5. Daisy's Patent Automatic Nanny ([64:03] Abu)

Summary:
A cautionary tale about Reginald Dacey, a Victorian inventor who creates a robotic nanny to raise children scientifically. The story follows his son Lionel's failed experiment, highlighting the overreliance on technology in parenting.

Key Points & Insights:

• Technology vs. Humanity: Critiques the attempt to mechanize inherently human tasks like parenting.
• Consequences of Hubris: Illustrates the tragic outcomes of assuming technology can replace human judgment and care.
• Relevance to Modern AI Debates: Draws parallels to current discussions about AI's role in personal and societal functions.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([82:04] Leo): "If you judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree, you're going to think it's a dumb fish."

Emotional Impact:

• Abu shares a poignant moment reflecting on the loss of the digiants' innocence, likening it to the joys and pains of pet ownership.

6. Truth of Fact, Truth of Feeling ([82:23] Leo)

Summary:
The story intertwines two narratives: a journalist using a memory-enhancing device called REMEM to uncover personal truths, and Jijingi, a native tribe member confronting the transformative impact of written language introduced by a missionary.

Key Points & Insights:

• Memory and Identity: Explores how technology can reshape personal and cultural identities by altering our relationship with memory.
• Cultural Transformation: Highlights the tension between traditional oral traditions and the disruptive influence of writing.
• Self-Reflection: The protagonist's realization of his own failings emphasizes the subjective nature of memory and truth.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([89:21] Leo): "People are made of stories. Our memories are not the impartial accumulation of every second we've lived. They are the narrative that we assembled out of selected moments."

Connections to Dune:

• The interplay between memory, truth, and cultural transformation mirrors the intricate societal and philosophical structures in Dune.

7. The Great Silence ([100:50] Abu)

Summary:
Narrated by an unnamed Puerto Rican parrot, the story reflects on humanity's neglect of Earth's intelligent life forms. As parrots face extinction due to human activities, the narrative questions the search for extraterrestrial intelligence while ignoring the wonders on Earth.

Key Points & Insights:

• Environmental Commentary: Critiques humanity's disregard for Earth's biodiversity in favor of cosmic pursuits.
• Perspective Shift: Offers an anthropomorphic viewpoint to emphasize the consequences of human actions on other intelligent beings.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([22:04] Leo): "Human activity has brought my kind to the brink of extinction. But I don't blame them for it. They didn't do it maliciously. They just weren't paying attention."

Emotional Reaction:

• The hosts express sadness and contemplation, appreciating the story's gentle yet impactful delivery.

8. Omphalos ([103:57] Leo)

Summary:
Set in a world where scientific discoveries support creationism, the story follows archaeologist Dorothea Morel as she grapples with a revelation that Earth is not the center of the universe, challenging her beliefs about humanity's purpose.

Key Points & Insights:

• Faith and Science: Explores the conflict between religious beliefs and scientific discoveries.
• Existential Crisis: Dorothea's journey reflects the turmoil of redefining one's purpose in a universe that doesn't center on humanity.
• Cultural Critique: Parallels the Butlerian Jihad from Dune, questioning the reliance on predetermined beliefs.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([107:03] Leo): "For me, science is the true modern cathedral, an edifice of knowledge every bit as majestic as anything made of stone. It fulfills all the goals that Yosemite Cathedral does and more."

Emotional Impact:

• Abu highlights the story's empowering message, appreciating Dorothea's resilience and determination despite her shaken faith.

9. Anxiety is the Dizziness of Freedom ([112:23] Leo)

Summary:
In a world where Prisms allow individuals to interact with parallel realities based on different choices, the story follows Natasha, Morrow, and Dana as they navigate the ethical and personal ramifications of manipulating alternate timelines.

Key Points & Insights:

• Choice and Consequence: Examines the illusion of free will and the psychological impact of knowing alternative outcomes.
• Ethical Implications: Highlights the moral dilemmas in exploiting technology for personal gain.
• Human Relationships: Natasha and Dana's evolving relationship underscores the complexities of trust and responsibility in a technologically advanced society.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo ([122:06] Leo): "Love it. Yeah."

Connections to Dune:

• The Prism technology parallels the prescient abilities in Dune, both exploring themes of destiny, choice, and the burden of foresight.

Rapid Fire Top Three Rankings

After an extensive discussion of all nine stories, Abu and Leo share their personal top three favorites from Exhalation.

Leo's Top Three:

1. Truth of Fact, Truth of Feeling
   "People are made of stories. Our memories are not the impartial accumulation of every second we've lived. They are the narrative that we assembled out of selected moments." ([89:21] Leo)
2. Exhalation
   "Every utterance will reduce the amount of air left for thought and bring us closer to the moment when our thoughts cease altogether." ([22:04] Leo)
3. Omphalos

Abu's Top Three:

1. Exhalation
   Renowned for its profound emotional and philosophical depth.
2. The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate
   Celebrated for its rich setting and cultural authenticity.
3. Omphalos

Honorable Mentions:

• Omphalos received high praise for its exploration of faith and scientific disruption.
• The Lifecycle of Software Objects and Daisy's Patent Automatic Nanny were noted for their ethical and emotional complexities.

Conclusion

Abu and Leo conclude the episode by reaffirming Ted Chiang's mastery in blending intricate scientific concepts with deep human emotions and ethical questions. They draw numerous parallels between the themes in Exhalation and the expansive universe of Dune, highlighting Chiang's ability to resonate with long-time Dune fans while providing fresh insights for newcomers.

Final Thoughts:

• Ted Chiang as a Maestro: The hosts laud Chiang's storytelling prowess, emphasizing his ability to craft narratives that are both intellectually stimulating and emotionally compelling.
• Integration with Dune Themes: The exploration of determinism, free will, and ethical dilemmas in Exhalation seamlessly ties back to core themes within the Dune saga.

Notable Quote to End:

• Abu ([131:35] Abu): "Ted Chiang is like the goat. And even his mediocre writing is heads and shoulders above most authors."

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This episode serves as a bridge between the intricate politics and philosophies of Dune and the thought-provoking narratives of Ted Chiang, celebrating the shared depth and complexity that both universes offer to their avid listeners.

Transcript

[Abu]

Today on the show, our nanny told us not to press that predictor button, but we didn't listen. So now, dear listener, you get to hear our paraselves talk about exhalation by Ted Chiang instead of Dune. What? I know. It's okay. It's okay.

[Leo]

Don't worry.

[Abu]

There's still going to be a lot of Dune talk. Because the truth is, every version of ourselves in every parallel reality is going to be obsessed with Dune. That's just a constant.

[Leo]

Yeah. Global weather patterns had no effect. Doesn't matter how obsessed with Dune we were.

[Abu]

Yeah. Butterfly effect. Get out of here. We still love Dune.

[Leo]

I went backward 20 years, and then I told myself, get interested in dude.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

That's Great. Went forward 20 years. Also obsessed with Dune. It's crazy.

[Abu]

The past is immutable. You can never change it.

[Leo]

Okay, I'm immutably obsessed with. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name is Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are not exactly talking about Dune, but we're always talking about Dune. That's our thing.

[Abu]

That's our thing. Even when we're not talking about Dune, it's about Dune. Just think about it.

[Leo]

Just think about it. That's how I get away with it with my close family and friends. They go, what do you want to talk about? I'm like, Dune. But we're going to talk about something else to talk about. Dune.

[Abu]

Exactly right. It's always a metaphor.

[Leo]

Today we're talking about the book Exhalation by Ted Chang. And anybody who's read the book knows this is an excellent collection of short stories. Excellent. And realistically, the reason we're talking about it is because we are right now between Heretics of Dune, our book club, and we are basically killing time until we kick off our chapter house book club.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And so in this kind of interim, what do we do? The idea was floated by our patrons that we talk about Ted Chiang. So here we are.

[Abu]

So here we are. Yeah, we like to get experimental in this, like, slow period in between book club series, like the D and D series y' all have been hearing on the feed lately. We have a really excellent audio drama that I'm very excited for folks to hear. Coming up, we adapted one of our favorite chapters from God Emperor into, like, A cinematic audio drama you'll get to hear in a few weeks. And today here we are talking about what I consider to be like, one of the pinnacles of sci fi. Honestly, like one of the best contemporary sci fi novels of all time. Short story collections of all time.

[Leo]

Yeah, completely agreed. I. I had a friend turn me on to Ted Chang at one point. And again, there's crossover here, too, because Villeneuve, before he did Dune, did Arrival. And Arrival was based on a Ted Chang short story.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And I think for people who encounter Ted Chang's writings, it is. There's also clear overlap, and I don't know how much Ted Chang maybe. Let's try to get Ted on the show.

[Abu]

I would love to get Ted on the show. He seems to look quite introverted as a person, but I think we could.

[Leo]

Get to him, you know, I mean, aren't we all?

[Abu]

Send him a little voice note, something soft and sweet.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Hey, Ted. Hey, Ted.

[Abu]

Okay, we're getting off track. All right, let's take care of some housekeeping. Now we're just hitting on Ted Chang.

[Leo]

I mean, let's.

[Abu]

Let's get some housekeeping. Let's take care of some housekeeping before we dive into this short story collection and work our way through all nine of the excellent stories. And in this book, obviously, as a spoiler warning, up top, folks, we highly, highly, highly recommend that you have actually read Exhalation by Ted Chang in its entirety. We are going to be talking about all of it today, so consider this a spoiler warning for the whole book. We also gently and sort of softly recommend that you're caught up with the book club episodes, I would say, because we will be making many references and connections to ideas in the Dune novels that we have talked about at length over the course of those book club series. So I would recommend that you've at least read up to wherever we are in the book club at the moment you're listening to this. And to give you an anchor point if you need one, I would say make sure you've read the first four books, at least through God, Emperor of Dune.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, as always, we want to thank our patrons who make all of this possible. So a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion and Seth Redding Greer.

[Abu]

Folks, if you could send money through prisms, Daniel and Seth's Paracels would also be supporting this podcast.

[Leo]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Abu]

We'd have, like, Infinite Kwisatz Haderach level patrons because it would just be Daniel and Seth infinitely over and over again from every parallel universe.

[Leo]

And then in every other parallel universe. Those podcasts don't have any support. We're like, right.

[Abu]

They're just supporting this one. We're the prime.

[Leo]

We're the prime universe. That's how I treat myself every morning. I go, you're the prime, Leo. Yeah. But of course our para thank you extends to all of our para patrons at every level in every universe and every dimension indeed, make this show possible. It is not an exaggeration to say that your support literally makes doing this possible. So thank you truly. And if you're not in a place right now to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, don't forget we have a one time tip option through Buy me a Coffee. That link is in the show notes as well. So if you prefer to just give us a bit of support, send that money through that prism because you're a dying old lady. You don't like your son anymore.

[Abu]

That was so funny.

[Leo]

Send us some money. That was very funny.

[Abu]

I don't like that son either. Yeah, he seems like a this gun toting son. I get it. I understand the old lady.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. Clearly we are chomping out the bit and cannot wait to get into the get into this book. The game plan for today is very simple folks. We will be hitting on some brief, very, very brief overviews and summaries of each of these books just as a refresher in case it's been a minute since you've read the book. And then we will be sharing our thoughts about all nine of the short stories contained within this excellent book. And then at the end, just for funsies, we will be power ranking our top three picks of the nine stories in this. What are our top three and why? We will be going through that. But of course all throughout today's conversation. This is a Dune podcast. We can't help but talk about Dune. We will be connecting many of the ideas and themes found in these short stories with ideas and themes that we've discussed in Frank's works.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

So all of that and more. But mostly all of that coming up after a quick break. Stick around folks. We will see you in just a minute to talk about Exhalation by Ted Cheng.

[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you're ready for all of that and more. But mostly all of that. Let's kick off our conversation about this book with the first story seems appropriate, called the Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate.

[Abu]

I Love it.

[Leo]

So just to kind of briefly summarize the story, this is set in a mythical Baghdad. It follows a merchant, Fouad IBN Abbas, who encounters a time traveling gate built by an alchemist and inventor. The narrative unfolds through nested stories of others who have used the gate. The whole story is him talking to the Caliph going, hey, this is what's happened to me and what's led to this moment. And it is very funny how often it's like. And then I asked him why? And he said, well, let me tell you a story and I'm going to tell you the story. He told me. It's stories within stories within stories the whole whole way down.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And each of those stories emphasizes a central idea that you can use these time traveling gates or even these time traveling portals to observe or even participate in the past and future events. But you cannot change fate, you cannot change time. So it's ultimate determinism. And why is the time portal here? Because it was always going to be here.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Time is immutable. God's plan is immutable.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Now, after some cautionary tales of other clients, the alchemist tells these stories of, hey, there's this guy who did this and this other person who did that.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Fouad travels to the door of years in Cairo so he can go back 20 years. And his hope against hope is that he can save his wife who died tragically 20 years ago.

[Abu]

And who wouldn't hope that if they came across a time traveling gate.

[Leo]

Now, as it turns out, as the alchemist warned, the past is immutable. And she dies again. His journey to Baghdad to see her is delayed and delayed and delayed. It's as if God's hand itself is delaying him. But he gets there. She's. She's died. Nevertheless, he's able to receive a message from her. He, he is very happy to have gotten that message. And you know, as he says with the alchemist, you may not be able to change things, but you may know the, the past better.

[Abu]

Right. You may know and that may change your perspective of things.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Beautiful stuff.

[Leo]

And that's the story.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So, Abu, talk to me. What did you think of this story? How'd it land for you?

[Abu]

Oh my gosh. Like, spoiler warning. This is, this is a top three story for me from this book. Not to spoil my power.

[Leo]

Off the top. All right.

[Abu]

Right off the top. I'm just going to be like, yeah, man, this is in my top three. I love this short story. It is so beautiful. There is so much respect for Islamic and Eastern culture and traditions in this story. It's sad, it's beautiful, it's touch, touching. It's. There's a wonderful message here of accepting the events of your life and being able to appreciate them. Not just the good, not just the happy moments, but the bad and the okay and the scary and understanding that, like, that is life. Life is full of many shades of moments ranging from joy to pure tragedy and everything, everything in between. And just the message of this story. You know, like, you might look at this and go, oh, man, like a time travel story where the time travel does nothing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You're telling me my fate is decided. Should I just give up and not do anything because my choices have already been locked in. That's not the message of this story. Instead, it's a beautiful and poignant observation about how you are experiencing, experiencing your life every moment at a time. And it's only in looking back on your past and quote, unquote, revisiting it through a different lens or reconsidering your original assumptions are you able to more fully appreciate the life that you have lived. It's beautiful. I want to share one of the quotes from this story that really struck me, and this is a bit of a thesis for this story as well. Quote, past and future are the same and we cannot change either, only know them more fully. My journey to the past had changed nothing, but what I learned had changed everything. And I understood that it could not have been otherwise. If our lives are tales that Allah tells, then we are the audience as well as the players. And it is by living these tales that we receive their lessons. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so beautiful.

[Abu]

Yeah, so beautiful. So I loved everything about this story. The characters, the setting, the message of it. I also just. I'm a bit of a sucker for, like, a time loop story. I love a time travel tale, regardless of which direction or how it interprets. Time travel.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I want to call out, this went over my head the first couple of times I read the story. But on a reread, you realize, oh, at the beginning of the short story, Baghdad is a prosperous and powerful city. And you realize that it's that because Fawad is talking to the Caliph 20 years ago. Fawad, who knows everything that's going to happen for the next 20 years and can act as the perfect advisor to the caliph to help Baghdad thrive.

[Leo]

That's so cool. So in a great detail, that loop.

[Abu]

Closes in on itself once you realize that part of the story, it's never staged, you know, overtly, but I fully believe that that's the intention. With Baghdad being a beautiful city and Fawad talking to the Caliph 20 years ago in the past is. I think Fawad chooses to stay and do what he can for the city of Baghdad and help the caliph rule and help the city thrive and become the powerful, legendary city it is at the start.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What about you, though? What did you feel about this first short story in the book?

[Leo]

I mean, just agreed on all accounts, I think, like, what an excellent start to the book. Great choice, editorial choice, to put this at the top of the book, because, like Dune, it defies so many expectations. It doesn't feel like sci fi.

[Abu]

Nope.

[Leo]

But we're talking about time travel. We're talking about this sort of, like, adjacent to reality, technology. The alchemist who makes the thing, he explains how he likes, widens the holes in timespace gently, like a glassblower. And it's like, sure, okay, sure. Like, yeah, great. You know, so it's funny, like, you buy it, you buy this book and you go, oh, I've heard he's a great time, you know, a great sci fi author. And then the first book is based in this, like, Middle Eastern story. And it's like, yeah, it's so brilliant for that reason.

[Abu]

Right. The tone is like Arabian Nights, you know, it's very, like, steeped in, like, mythology and fantasy rather than, like, hard sci fi.

[Leo]

And the way that the characters kind of explain themselves and the way that the narrative unravels feels very like a parable or like a story from. From a. From a religious text. It's so cool. I love it. And it's so unique. I also. One of the kind of things that I want to say across all of these stories is they all have a very, like, unique feeling to them. It's almost hard to feel where Ted Chiang's style starts and ends because he's so good at writing these different styles. But also, that's very like Dune, Right. Like, I think for a lot of people who read Dune, you're out in the desert with the Fremen and everything's names based in Arabic, right? Yeah, we start to see some analogues there. But I also want to point out I really appreciate how Paul, who struggles and bumps up against the immutability of time once perceived. Right. The future is open, and it's this. And that's the benefit of it. The problem is if you have a prescient being seeing the future, you have now locked down that future, and we more or less know that's the way it works in Dune is like Paul looks too closely at the reality of Chani dying. So there's no chance of Chani not dying.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And there we see some of the similarities here. And granted, in this story, it's God's plan. In Dune, it seems a little bit more like an atheistic story where there isn't sort of a main creator kind of guiding everyone's decisions. Nevertheless, we still have this, this kind of theme of once time is perceived, once time has been sort of laid out on its timeline, there's really no changing it.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

I also really appreciate that, you know, and we're kind of joking about it with the time, the time holes and the glass blowing. But, like, realistically, I appreciate that Ted Chiang doesn't get wrapped up in too much trying to explain how the time travel works and how the gate works. He just goes, this is how it was demonstrated. He explained it. I didn't really get it. But here's how it works. And then you just move on. And we focus on the very human desire to reverse a thing that's happened and to see someone you love. Right. And that's the core of the story. So also, in a way that I felt was very similar to Frank's writings, it's like, what exactly are Alia's powers? Who's to say? But isn't it scary to think about being lost to possession, an abomination? I like this idea of we focus on what's important. We don't get wrapped up in the technology or the exact how and why. We just focus on the people at the core of the story and how they're affected by all of these things. So I really enjoyed that. Again, great story overall. Very, very, very strong story and excellent introduction to what not to expect when going into a sci fi short story collection. You're like, oh, shit, maybe I should get rid of all my expectations. It's wonderful.

[Abu]

Yeah. Takako makes a great call out here as well. Takako writes, I enjoyed how the characters used time period slash culture specific metaphor to describe time travel.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's huge.

[Abu]

And I actually think Ted Chang is excellent at doing this because this comes up in a later story with jijingi and fact of feeling. Fact of fiction, where they talk about writing in a way that's very truth of fact.

[Leo]

Truth of.

[Abu]

Truth of fact. Truth of fiction.

[Leo]

I was like. I was like that. You, I mean, you said what was true, you didn't say what was accurate.

[Abu]

There we go, exactly. I do believe this is one of Ted Chang's superpowers. He can make the characters feel like they absolutely belong in that story. None of them are jarringly like using modern lexicon in a story that's supposed to be set in mythical ancient Baghdad. Great call out to Gako.

[Leo]

I also, I started getting a sense of maybe the very real benefit that having a God figure or this like externalized force can be for people. And this may be like obvious to most people, but I was raised in effectively an atheistic household within Tibetan Buddhism. And like, we don't really have an external thing. So a lot of a feeling of peace with the way things are comes from internal introspection and kind of looking at the way that you interact with things. And that's, that's sort of where a lot of it comes from for me. But the idea of like, Paul sees his inability to control things as in this sort of cynical, defeatist way. You say, well, I can't do anything, what's the point? And we see in this story multiple times, characters bumping up against the limits of what they can change. And they go, well then that's God's plan. And there's, there's a relief there of, well, he's in charge. And I got a very visceral feeling of that in this story that I thought was quite beautiful. It's a little alien to me.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But like the idea of having that externalized thing, maybe even the sort of thing that Leto to Atreides becomes, saying, I'm going to remove myself from humanity so everyone can point to me and say, well, he's got a plan. Yeah, you know, I'm going to become the God Emperor. You know. That's something I felt in the fabric of this story that was very, is interesting to me. And again, not familiar. Not familiar to my day to day experience for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah. A sort of acceptance of your life's events, which is very central to the themes and ideas of this first story.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, let's talk about story number two. This one is the titular exhalation. Oh my God. This one is also a banker. So to very briefly summarize it and refresh your memory to your listener. Exhalation is a short story where we follow this mechanical being who lives in some sort of sealed world. This mechanical being is a scientist and a researcher and it dissects its own brain to try and understand how memory works. Through the process of dissecting its own brain, it discovers that it, its universe Its enclosed, sealed universe is slowly running out of air pressure. And air pressure is the life force of the beings in this universe. Yeah, entropy. Basically, it's. It's a one long allegory for entropy. And this is an astonishing book. The being figures out, basically, like, the nature of its own consciousness. Like, it unlocks its brain and begins to realize, like, which parts of its brain and the physical mechanisms are actually where memory resides and is able to solve the issue, for example, of why when one of these mechanical beings, quote, unquote, dies, their memory dies with them. It isn't just, like, cataloged in some hard drive in their brain. It's really beautiful stuff. And again, like a really beautiful sort of metaphor for how human brains and how human memory and how human stories are saved but can also be lost. The. The story also zooms out from that point and focuses on how how these discoveries about memory and about how the life force is being drained from this universe affects society and basically how society begins to contend with its own mortality. Because for these beings in this universe, time is literally running out. Time is literally slowing down on their clocks because of the way the air pressure in their universe is changing. There's incredible quotes all throughout this short story. There's a couple we want to share here. This first one, our every utterance will reduce the amount of air left for thought and bring us closer to the moment when our thoughts cease altogether. Will it be preferable to remain mute, to prolong our ability to think or to talk until the very end? I don't know. End quote.

[Leo]

God damn it.

[Abu]

Chills. Just chills.

[Leo]

So good. Yeah. And then it just moves on from that quote. It, like, drops that. And then it's like, anyway, back to the story. And I'm like, what incredible stuff.

[Abu]

The story ends on a beautiful note as well, because it's revealed that our narrator, this scientist who did the brain surgery on itself, is writing all of this, all of this down for some hypothetical future explorer who may come upon this universe long after these beings have gone extinct because of the air pressure.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And the story ends on just this incredibly beautiful call to action for these explorers. Quote, contemplate the marvel that is existence and rejoice that you are able to do so. I feel I have the right to tell you this because as I am inscribing these words, I am doing the same. End quote. Like, I'm getting emotional just reading that. That's.

[Leo]

Yeah. When we talk about, like, an author writing something with an intent to pass along a message, a couple of Times in this book I get a sense of like, this is Ted Cheng going, just fucking take a second and appreciate how great it is to live and how great it is to be alive. Like for all of the chaos and all of the bad stuff and all the stuff that we have to reckon and think about, appreciate the very baseline of thinking and being.

[Abu]

It's a brilliant story and a brilliant message. What were your thoughts on it on this one, Leah?

[Leo]

Oh my God. Well, I mean, just to shout out a couple of comments that we're getting normal, Senva says, should we live for a long time or a good time with providing an answer to the question a good time. And it's true. So I goddamn love this story. I think this story is spectacular. It also occurs to me as I was rereading it. This for sure, by the way, is one of the stories that years after reading this book for the first time, I was still thinking about. Occasionally. I like that steampunk universe of the scientists dissecting his own brain. And the moment when he realizes that with the mirrors effectively locked in place, seeing the room from this external position, brain expanded arms and movements being recreated with these mechanical arms, he has a moment of going, am I the room? Like right, is my consciousness now the room or am I the body? And that gets to a very cool, I think oftentimes when we start looking at baseline consciousness in Western civilization, we think that our consciousness is fully in our heads. But in other cultures, consciousness is elsewhere. And the idea of my hand, I hurt my hand. It's not me, but it's my hand. This is the hand I own. You know, the question of where does, where does identity begin? Stop, start and stop. Where do we create those vacuum sealed bubbles around consciousness? Yeah, it's all very cool and, and that this story stuck with me for a long time. But rereading it, I really appreciate that this story asks thought provoking questions. This story asks more questions than answers it provides. And I really appreciate that in stories like when you ask really meaningful questions that guide us toward appreciating the life we live. Appreciating what does it mean to live right to normal? Senva's quote, should we live a long time? Should we be focusing on expanding the number of years we have on this planet or should we be focusing on providing the best quality of life for the most people? And like, what is the goal? Yeah, and I think we can get, we can get lost in just developing technology for technology sake, or developing the sciences for science's sake, or develop Whatever the call to action to remind ourselves of why are we here and what are we doing? Is the point. To speak to one another is the point of the exchange. And should we talk to the very end or should we allow ourselves to become these sort of hermits of meditation and isolation, you know, connected to life, supporting machines in our little hospital rooms? Like, what is the sort of future we want for ourselves? And then how does that affect our decisions today? It's excellent. I'm also, I'm a huge. I'm a huge fan of like steampunk and like that sort of the idea of these gold foil brains that have these like, flipping mechanisms. And I thought that was incredible. I was like a kid in a candy shop having a great time. And besides fucking okay, Daris Balat writing journals for future people to read and reflect on. This is so Dune coded. Are you kidding me?

[Abu]

It is very Dune coded. Even the central message that, like, appreciate and marvel at existence and that you are able to do so because nothing lasts forever.

[Leo]

What is your noble purpose? Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

That's one of the central ideas that Paul has to struggle with in Messiah, that on a long enough timeline, nothing is forever.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

On a timeline of infinity, of every future possible, everything will eventually fade and die out in sort of a natural cyclical way. I think this story touches on that idea as well because. Because the message is for these explorers who are. Who may come into this universe and see an extinct universe, they. They're coming in hypothetically because their own universe is dying and they're trying to find a solution by going to another one. You know, like, it's this idea that, like, our universe died, yours will also die. Appreciate everything while it's there. And like you're saying, decide what matters most to you while you still have it, because it won't be there forever. I think instead of being a sad and tragic message, it ends up actually being a really touching one.

[Leo]

Yeah, completely agreed. And I'm already hearing some of what you think about it. But broadly, what did you think of this story? You hated it?

[Abu]

I loved it. Honestly, we only shared two quotes, but if I could have just read this short story to everyone, I would have, because, like, this is maybe some of the most beautiful sci fi writing I've ever read. Just in these couple of pages of this short story. I agree with you completely. The steampunk aesthetic, the fact that this universe doesn't feel like it needs to explain itself. At no point does Ted Chiang be like, oh, well, you know, like air and it's like robots, and it's a whole thing. But don't worry, it's like, are they underground?

[Leo]

Are they, like.

[Abu]

The story just goes and is like, hang in there. Like, you're in for this ride. They're in a universe. It's enclosed. Don't worry about it. Gold threads, air pressure. And at first, it's a little jarring. You start the short story and you're like, what is going on? Because none of it makes sense. But it's written so beautifully and the world building is handled so delicately that you as the reader, are just along for the ride. And suddenly you're deeply invested in this. You pointed out a couple of moments in the brain surgery that affected you. That entire scene just gripped me and didn't let go.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It was so visceral. The brain surgery scene itself is so visceral and so well written. Like, I could.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I have a hard time, like, visualizing what I read. I don't, like, see people's faces and stuff when I read.

[Leo]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Abu]

I like, vividly visualize this brain surgery scene in my head just because of the way it's written. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, you know, because at any moment you're like, oh, my gosh, you're going to damage yourself. You're doing brain surgery on yourself.

[Leo]

Brain turns off.

[Abu]

It's all very delicate. A beautiful scene, a beautiful story. I loved it. Start to finish. One of my favorites, for sure.

[Leo]

I think what in particular, Ted did a great job of outlining the stakes for this scientist. The scientist acknowledges this is risky.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Multiple times he goes, am I even right now making rational decisions? Have I damaged my brain in some way? Can I make rational decisions to the best of my ability?

[Abu]

It's a little like, wink, wink, like, unreliable narrator, maybe.

[Leo]

Like, yeah, who's to say?

[Abu]

To say. So good.

[Leo]

And then I arranged a colleague to come meet me at my office in seven days, just in case I die on the operating table so that someone finds my body. The number of ways that Ted very gently says, here are the stakes and what's. What's. What's going to happen? Right. Like. Like, this story stuck with me. The same for you. I thought about every little sentence. I was like, oh, my God, what's going to happen next? Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant stuff.

[Abu]

A great one. An iconic one, dare I say. I'm trying to avoid saying iconic because people keep calling me out for, like, Overusing. Iconic, but truly, folks. Iconic.

[Leo]

This is iconic. Iconic thing to say, Abu. What an iconic comic. Well, okay, so that's exhalation. Okay, let's talk about our third story. This one's quick. The third story in the book is called what's Expected of Us, and it's written by. It looks like Paul Atreides. No, it's someone else. It looks like this manages to, potentially, depending on how you feel about it, fuck up your day in just a couple of pages. It's like three pages long. And it's a very brief tale about a device called the Predictor, or a Predictor. You buy one, it's very fun. It's kind of a novelty tool. And the idea is it's sending a. It's like a quantum time signal. When you push the button, it sends a signal back in time a second. And the light will go on a second before you push the button.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And there is no way to trick it. There's no way to get around it. Very simple little thing.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And as the story points out, initially some people are like, oh, that's kind of fun.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

But then it sets in what it's demonstrating, which is that we don't have free will. And in particular, although people had always kind of talked about this. Right. I watched quite a few science communicators, and there's a number of them who are like, the more I've studied physics and chemistry and neurology, the more I don't really believe in free will. And it's like, oh, okay, cool. But I think we all live necessary that necessarily, we all live with the sort of illusion of I definitely believe that I have the ability to choose. The problem is with this predictor tool is that it gave, in this universe, people solid evidence that they did not have a choice right about when they were going to push button. And this leads to many people falling into effectively waking comas where they don't make any new decisions. But at the end, the narrator urges readers to just pretend. Just pretend you have free will. That's the secret. But then he acknowledges, you know, it doesn't actually change anything because you either will be affected or you won't.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So why should I send this warning? Well, because I didn't have a choice.

[Abu]

I inevitably had to.

[Leo]

I had to. I was the person to send the warning.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

So what did you think, Abu? How did. How did this. Not that you have any choice in how you felt about it. Not that free will exists, but how do. How are we Going to pretend you chose to feel.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, I have no choice but to love this story. Oh, my God. So good.

[Leo]

Sensing a pattern.

[Abu]

Yeah, Truly a pattern here in just three pages. It's the kind of story that makes you. You know that meme where the. Where the guy, like, sits up in his chair and people use it for, like, I locked in when the. When this happened in Dune Part two or whatever. Like, that's me. Like, I was reading this and I got to the end and I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, I need to not read anything for the rest of the day, because I can't.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[Abu]

And to be able to do that in three pages is like a superpower. Right? Like, my God. I loved this story. I also loved its central message. You know, like, it's clear all of these short stories, as you stated, Ted Chang is trying to get some sort of message across or to explore the human condition in some way. Maybe not provide answers, but to provide thoughts and feelings. I loved the message of this. Thoughts and prayers, truly. For some cases. I loved this. I loved the idea that, like, whether or not free will does or does not exist within our universe, in order for you to live your life, just pretend it does.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That's, in fact, the only way you will be able to live your life is to just pretend. And in this case, it's okay to just pretend because that is what will keep you sane. I want to read the final lines of this story again. If we could just read these three pages to you, we would.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But these final lines, like, truly haunting stuff. And I truly, like, I'm not even being hyperbolic. I closed the book and stopped.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I could not keep reading after this. I needed to, like, take a day.

[Leo]

And actually, to Kakako's point, the last line is a gut punch.

[Abu]

Yes. Yeah, a total gut punch. So here. Here's the final paragraph of this story. And yet I know that because free will is an illusion. It's all predetermined who will descend into a kinetic mutism and who won't. There's nothing anyone can do about it. You can't choose the effect the predictor has on you. Some of you will succumb and some of you won't. And my sending this warning won't alter those proportions. So why did I do it? Because I had no choice. End quote. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Because also on the previous. It's like the previous paragraph, he says, this is the first time we've built up the Time trick that the predictor uses for a long term warning. So this is a warning going back 10 years. And so you read that and you go, oh, so there's like a chance that all of this is going to get helped. You're helping. And then that last line is like, I'm not helping. I'm just doing what I.

[Abu]

If anything, I'm reconfirming your Suspicions. It's from 10 years, you know, X number of years in the future. It's so good because I had no choice. It's just an absolute gut punch, like Takako said. Closes the loop on this story. And still, it still gets the central message across. What about you? How did you feel about it? Or, you know, how do you inevitably feel about it given you have. No.

[Leo]

Yeah, I didn't have a choice. I also loved this story and actually also. So my friend Steve recommended Ted Chang to me initially and said he is the sort of author who, in a short story, after a short story, you should close the book and just sit with it. Sit with the story. And I will say, I think that's the best way to read Ted Chiang because it's so easy sometimes to finish a story and then just launch into the next one.

[Abu]

Yeah, don't.

[Leo]

But taking some time. Yeah, taking some time to just sit with the story is great. And this is one of those ones that doesn't give you much of a choice. Ironically, and apparently ironically, yeah, you. You finish the story and it's like, oh, shit. And I remember actually for this story in particular, I was on the train. I finished that story. I took a really deep breath, I closed the book slowly put it back into my bag and then didn't have music playing or anything. Just had my headphones in for 40 minutes and was like just the dull.

[Abu]

Silence of the subway.

[Leo]

Just chuga, chugga, chugga, chuga, chuga. Noise cancellation on just barely. Barely getting by. It was. It's a lot.

[Abu]

The man next to you is like, oh my God. I think he just read what's Expected of Us by Ted Chen.

[Leo]

He puts a hand on my shoulder. Solidarity. He's like, I didn't have a choice to put my hand on your shoulder.

[Abu]

Sorry.

[Leo]

It's. Oh my God, it's so good. It's such a contained, tight little package. It reminds me again that, like, great stories don't have to be a thousand pages long.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the idea of just three or four pages being so effective is. It's incredible, incredible stuff. I also, I really liked this quote, this idea that it presents that determinism is around. You know, we've talked about determinism in the real world quite a bit as a. In philosophers still talk about it. And you know, generally there's this idea of like, yeah, are we all a byproduct of just causation? And there's nothing else to it. And this quote, quote, it just wasn't harmful until you believed it. End quote, is excellent. I love that also because the number of beliefs that people have that would be so destructive if they fully inhabited those beliefs the way that we inhabit other beliefs. There's. There's a lot of things that I think people come to understand and believe, but that don't really take form in like a visceral way. And an example that comes to mind is like, Abu, you and I, we know on paper how big the universe is, but when you look up at the sky, it's hard not to allow it to just be like a black dome with like dots in it. You know, it's hard not to see the night sky as just a wallpaper.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And to actually sit with the night sky understanding that you're seeing billions of light years and light all coming to you from millions of years ago. It's like to sit with that real belief is a very different visceral feeling. So the idea of us talking about determinism and there is no such thing as free will. That and the visceral belief of it, the visceral. I feel what it means to not have a free will. I understand the warning of this story. And that's also why I think it's beautiful to say, hey, you know what? Just fucking wing it. Pretend like you've got free will. It's going to be the best life you have.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I love it.

[Abu]

I think, in fact, it'll be the only life you have because. Because it's predetermined. And so.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You know. Yeah, wing it. Yeah, that's. That is an excellent call out though. The, like, intellectual examination and discussion of determinism and the lack of free will versus the button in your hand that just won't fucking light up.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Until you choose to press it. And it'll only do it when you do that. Physical proof in your hand is vastly different. The gap between those two feelings is vastly. Is vast.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's kind of highlighting that that ravine that exists between what we intellectually know and what we viscerally feel and understand to be true. And that's an interesting place to explore.

[Abu]

And.

[Leo]

And naturally he did it in like three pages. So all of that being said, hey, folks, we appreciate you pretending like you had a choice of whether or not to listen to Bar. It's really great of you.

[Abu]

It was inevitable. You push that play button before you know that play button. You get it? It's a predictor.

[Leo]

You get it. Yeah. A second. A second before you started listening, you hit play. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, let's talk about our fourth short story in this book, the Lifecycle of Software Objects.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So to quickly summarize this one, this is the longest short story in the collection. In fact, it's novella sized. It's quite. Yeah, it's about a novella length. And the story follows the development and the nurturing of these AI entities. The Digimon. I mean, the digi Digimon.

[Leo]

Yeah, sorry.

[Abu]

Over several years, there's many, many time jumps throughout this story as these neopets grow more intelligent and emotionally complex. Their caretakers, Anna and Derek, the two primary protagonists of the story we follow, basically face a number of moral and practical dilemmas over the years, which touch on a bunch of different ideas and topics. Primarily, a lot of ideas here about parenting and what it means to raise an intelligent being that still has much more to learn. There's also a lot of exploration of the ethics of artificial life and how you treat it and what rights it has and what it doesn't have.

[Leo]

And is it a product? Is it an entity?

[Abu]

Right. Do you sell it? Do you. What is the kindest way to, quote, unquote, like, put it down, you know, to turn it off? And what does it want? Like, how many of its wants are valid and how many of its wants are just, like, coded and trained into it, that sort of thing. A lot of big AI questions here as well, on top of a lot of really heartfelt parenting questions about just. Just what it means to raise another living being. One of the primary examples in the story, one of the big conundrums that happens near the end is sexuality becomes a topic of discussion within this group. These digiants have matured to the point where the question of whether or not we can make money off of them being used as like, sort of sex objects. And if they consent to that, is that okay? Is that just employment? Is that just like consensual sex work? And it gives them more agency.

[Leo]

The oldest profession is the oldest profession.

[Abu]

Yeah, sure. And, you know, again, this also wraps up into the idea of. Of parenting. One of the digiant owners, for example, writes on the message board, quote, I don't like the idea of anyone having sex with my digiant. But then I remembered that parents never want to think about their kids having sex either. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. At that point the analogies start to become pretty clear.

[Abu]

It's like very. Now we're hammering the analogy on its head for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And you know, ultimately Derek and Anna, there's like a B plot also happening throughout the story where Derek has this like crush on Anna because they bond over their digiant care so much and the world sort of moves on from digiants like it's a cool shiny product for a few years and then it goes away. Away. The company goes under. Derek and Anna inherit many of the digiants and are their primary caretakers. They spend a lot of time together. This sex work question kind of comes, becomes the penultimate question at the end. And the story ends when Derek goes against Anna's wishes basically, and makes a decision for his own digiants, for his own quote, unquote kids, to give them the agency to choose.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If you want to do this, go ahead.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Anna doesn't want to give them that choice.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's so fascinating because ultimately what Derek decides is just that Marco understands my digiant. Marco actually understands what he's volunteering for.

[Abu]

Yes. Right.

[Leo]

And is willing to own that he doesn't know if it's going to be a mistake or not, but that he deserves to own his own mistakes.

[Abu]

Yeah, they've matured to that point over many years.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's fascinating.

[Abu]

And Anna almost can't recognize that they've matured to that point and is worried that they can't understand what sex work would be, you know, that. That they would be. They would be stepping into something without full knowledge of it. And Ana isn't quite able to trust it. But. And that that sort of does create a rift between the two. And that's where the story ends. Basically. They have one final fateful call with each other. They have a facetime where they talk about this decision that Derek has made. And then, yeah, Derek goes his own way and Anna goes her own way with her digiant Jacks. And that's where the story ends.

[Leo]

Although it does end with the future of the digiants saved. So. So Derek's decision. Right. Saves the digiants. They are going to get ported to the new software. They're going to be around. True.

[Abu]

There's like an existential problem throughout the.

[Leo]

Whole story and it was solved. And it means that Anna doesn't have to get like brain surgery to. To have, like, a hormone that, like.

[Abu]

Nicotine patch that, like, makes her happy.

[Leo]

Or whatever makes you love the thing that you're helping.

[Abu]

Dude.

[Leo]

There's so much moral. Moral ambiguity in this story.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

And again, like a lot of the earlier stories and, like, the later stories, it asks some very big, very impactful, very human questions without providing tidy answers in a way that I really deeply appreciate.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Because I don't know. I don't know what I would do in their position. I don't know if I would fall on Derek's side of it or Anna's side of it. And as they're hashing out the conversations, I really genuinely feel compelled by each person. Anna goes, here's what I think. And I go, oh, yeah, good call, Anna. And then Derek's like, what about this? And I'm like, oh, shit. Good call, Derek, bro.

[Abu]

You're right, Derek, bro.

[Leo]

Oh, bro. Oh, no. So, yeah, it was. It was a great time.

[Abu]

That's a good call out. I also left this story with a deeply uncomfortable feeling of. I don't know if what just happened is right, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is this what should have happened? Is this what I would have done? I don't know. I left, like, uncomfortable, which I think was the intention.

[Leo]

Am I making the mistake that Anna's making, thinking of them as animals and. Or humans? And they are not. They're neither.

[Abu]

They're neither.

[Leo]

And at one point, Derek's going, am I making the mistake of relegating this being in front of me, Marco. To thinking of him like a chimp or like a dog? Or am I thinking about him like a human who can eventually become like a human? And Anna seems caught between the two. And yet what does that mean if you're ascribing them to the moral refinements of those two life forms when they're neither? And Derek seems to kind of fall into this, like, well, maybe we don't know. Maybe we don't have good answers. And maybe we just let them make mistakes and recognize that that's part of life.

[Abu]

Right. Some eggs are going to get broken along the way. Yeah. And it's messy. Right. Like, both of those answers are icky. Like, you're not satisfied with either of them kind of by the end. And.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's a. It's a good story. You know, I. You know, here's what I'll say. This is my least favorite story in the book.

[Leo]

All of that being said, fuck the story.

[Abu]

But again, like, head and shoulders above, so Much like so much other writing out there. Like, that's the thing. Like, Ted. In my mind, Ted Chenk can, like, do no wrong. This is my least favorite story in the book, mostly because I do think it goes on a bit too long.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We've, like, made the point halfway through the story, and then it, like, continue. It just keeps going and keeps hammering the point home. But here's what I'll say. When I first read this short story many, many years ago, I was much younger. That's how linear time works. And I. I had, like, far less responsibility. And I was just. Frankly, I was just, like a young. I wasn't a kid, but, you know, I was like a young kid. And so many of the, like, poignant ideas in this story around parenting in particular and, like, raising children right above my head, like, utterly lost on me.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I had no empathy for any of the parenting questions that Anna and Derek struggled with in this story the first time I read it on this most recent reread. Now that I'm in, like, I'm in my 30s. I'm older. I don't have kids, to be clear, But I, you know, I have experience raising multiple pets. And I'm not trying to make some analogy that, like, children are just pets, but, you know, the basic mechanics and feelings of, like, taking care of and raising like an intelligent being and keeping it happy and fed and healthy, those are generally the same. Right. So I. I felt much more empathetic to the parenting questions in the story this time around. And, in fact, they. They hit me quite harder this time, too, that there were moments where I was like, whoa, I need to take a beat here, because that. That's heartbreaking. I want to share one of these moments. One of these moments that really hit me like a truck is early on in the story, the digiants, at one point sort of naturally and accidentally discover king of the hill.

[Leo]

Or, like, rolling down the hill.

[Abu]

Right, like rolling down the hill. The joy. Yeah. And it's totally spontaneous. This isn't the thing they were training for or practicing. They're just hanging out. And suddenly the Dijians start to do this, and they're having so much fun, and they start to copy each other, and they're playing on this hill, and. And it's a clear, like, natural moment where the AI has developed something new on its own. But then, because of business decisions, Anna is forced to roll all the digiants back to, like, a previous save.

[Leo]

Yeah. Like, someone says, one of the kids, like, cusses and it's like, oh, we got to roll back.

[Abu]

No, we got to reset them, like, back to the previous checkpoint. God damn it. We got to. We got to make sure they never cuss. We can't sell a cussing toy to, like, kids.

[Leo]

Right, right, right.

[Abu]

So she, you know, flips the switch, resets them, they go back to a different checkpoint. And that, like, gosh, that like, really got me because, you know, having like, like raising a dog. One of the greatest joys of raising a dog, a pet of any kind, is watching them as their parent, discover something new or to learn something new and to start doing it on their own. Not something that, like, you've trained them or that you're working on and practicing and them to do something they have naturally discovered on their own and that brings them great joy. And watching them do that and embrace that, that is truly like one of the greatest joys of being a parent to a pet. And I imagine it's similar for children as well, probably on a much more intense level, honestly, for sure. And part of that is realizing that they are building their own confidence in themselves. They explored something new on their own, but their worldview is now expanding as well. No thanks to me. This intelligent being has. Has expanded its own worldview because of its own confidence. And ultimately, like, as a parent, that's what you want for, for your kids, for your pets. Like, you want them to be self sustaining individuals who are capable of doing that and don't rely on you for everything. And for Anna to just flip a switch, go to a previous checkpoint and rip that away, that hill that you had so much fun playing on, this new thing you discovered, this expansion of your world, gone. That really got me. I was like, oh, my God, that's so tragic for the digiants, for the kids, that's so tragic for the parents. God, it's just like such an awful thing to happen. That was just one moment. I think there were a number of moments throughout the story, in particular when it came to parenting questions that definitely hit me harder this time around because I just have more experience in that regard. Not even with kids. You know, I think even on a smaller scale with pets, you still have many of the same feelings and many of the same practical and ethical conundrums. You know, is my dog happy? Does he actually like going to the park and walking around and to, like, solve those solutions and then watch them find joy in that? It's just one of the most rewarding things ever. So I really, I will say, not my favorite story. I still think it's the weakest of the bunch in my opinion. But I had a fresh perspective on it this time around, which I really appreciated. It still overstays its welcome a little bit. It drags well beyond the point where the ideas have landed and the point has been made. But I enjoyed it much more this time around. I will say I could have lost the whole Derek Loves Anna B plot though. I felt like that was like kind of pointless and then ultimately really went nowhere. It would have been fine if they were just close friends. I don't know that we needed a sort of romantic entanglement there as well. But those are sort of my feelings. What about you? Where does this story fall for you and do you feel similarly?

[Leo]

Yeah, you know, it's funny because I agree this is I think my least favorite part of the book of reading this short story collection. But I think it's hard not to be dragged down by the pacing shift because we just finished what's Expected of Us, which is like three pages long.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then a little later we have, we have stories like the Great Silence which is like lightning speed. It's like five pages long, six pages long. You know, even the last story, which is longer, still has a lot going on and a lot changing and a lot of perspective shifts and all that. So I think that the challenge with this story is that it is a novella and it is nested between short stories. And that's a challenge. That's just a challenge of form. If I said, hey, we're going to go to a short film festival and then I show you a two hour film in the middle of a short film festival, it's going to feel unreasonably long and I think by itself if you presented to this to me like I just read, I read pretty recently Jekyll and Hyde just as like a little self contained book. I think I would love this story.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a great call out.

[Leo]

I think I would really just love this story. No caveats. I'd be like, what a phenomenal story. Because also thinking about it, the way that we are introduced to the digiants and we are slowly given these more and more complex moral questions of is it right to take away the first time they roll down a hill all the way to is it right to have sex with them? And it is a process of slowly but surely building up this big moral conundrum.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

In a way that is so compelling and so beautiful. And I also, although I do think that maybe we didn't need the Derek and Anna side plot. I think there's something interesting. I really love the moments where Derek is wondering if he's supporting her because he wants to be in her good favor or if he's supporting her because he thinks it's right to support her.

[Abu]

Yeah. Or whether supporting her will make her boyfriend break up with her so she becomes single so he can jump in there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And the icky feelings he feels about that. That's true. The romance does add some layers of complexity to their interactions, for sure.

[Leo]

And I think it allows the moral questions to expand beyond parents treating children, how this becomes just morality. What does it mean to be a good friend and to be supportive of someone when you are aware of how things can turn out?

[Abu]

Great point. Yeah.

[Leo]

I don't know that that is necessarily going to be. If what you're getting out of this story is the resonance of like being a pet parent, then for sure that might be a little bit off the beaten path. But I do think that there's a place in the story for that. And I appreciate also that Derek and Anna effectively represent two very well intentioned but different perspectives on the same conundrum, which is how do you give agency to something whether or not you're sure of whether it's ready for it? And they fall on different sides of the decision. And that ultimately is a barb in their relationship. It's really poignant. I'll also, I'll share a quote that I found really, really poignant. This is from Anna's perspective.

[Abu]

This is so good.

[Leo]

She's talking about a lesson that she learned about how to. How to raise the dig. And kind of because a lot of these companies throughout the story are trying to figure out the like lightning in a bottle way to get to sophisticated artificial intelligence, but with common sense and with a sense of like, intuition. And she says this quote, experience isn't merely the best teacher, it's the only teacher. If she's learned anything from raising Jacks, it's that there are no shortcuts. If you want to create the common sense that comes from 20 years of being in the world, you need to devote 20 years to the task. You can't assemble an equivalent collection of heuristics in less time. Experience is algorithmically incompressible. End quote. Fucking banger bars. God damn it. Like, what a great explanation. And ultimately, like, that resonates with me so much. In a creative field, you can't get to 10,000 hours of drawing experience without putting in 10,000 hours like that's just the way it works. And when you talk about technology compressing things. Yeah. Printing books is much faster now that we have mechanical prints. That's great. ChatGPT speeds up a lot of things, but it is wrong to say I can speed up everything. There are certain things that take time and that is. Is always going to be the case. And in this case it's like, yeah, building up 20 years worth of heuristics, that takes 20 years. And there's no way to impress that. So good again that there are moments within the story that really stuck with me. But you're right, it's like I'm. It's. It's 109 pages long, but who's counting? I was me, I counted. And ultimately that's rough when you go from a four page story to a 109 page story. It's like, oh man, I could have read. I could have read what's expected of us 26 times. And instead I'm like on page 74 of. Of learning about this Pokemon that they want to have sex with. Like, all right, whatever, you know. So anyway, I'll wrap up my thoughts by saying in particular I really enjoyed. It's the last page. It's like the second to last page. Anna is kind of daydreaming about what the future of digiance looks like.

[Abu]

Yeah, this is beautiful.

[Leo]

Now that Derek's made this choice, he's secured the future of digiance. What does Jax's future look like? And she wonders about. Yeah, there's going to be this whole generation of people. The next generation of people will grow up. Jax's dancing friends treat Jax as just another buddy. And there's going to be generations that treat Jax as normal. And that also means could see Jax as a romantic partner. Could see Jax as like a someone to share a life with. And that's something different generationally. And what does that mean? Right. Where do we find common ground between humans and human made sentience? Really fascinating questions. And again, no tidy answers, but interesting questions.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And it really also gave me a sense of like, yeah, this is the Butlerian jihad to come. Because let's say 8,000 years down the road you have a digiant in charge of a hospital and decides to abort a child. Now you have the butler and jihad and. And then eventually you have a digiant named Erasmus who takes joy in torturing people. And there's the digging and then there's the. Oh, and then all the computers get banned and then you have Leto to a tree. So all I'm saying is this is a prequel to Dune.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

It's all continuous. Anna is Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

Yeah, a great story and clearly we had a lot of thoughts and feelings on it and there's so many great ideas to explore and talk about and so wild to still think. Like I thought this was the weakest of the bunch, but it's still incred iconic some might say.

[Leo]

Yeah, the worst Ted Chang story is still heads and shoulders above most authors and what they're capable of. It's crazy. I do want to call out a couple of the comments we've gotten recently. So normal. Senba first shared that the audiobook performance was so good for this Jax. The verbal skills for Jax clearly improve on pace with their maturity, which is so sick. I didn't know that. That's awesome to hear. What a great way of demonstrating their maturity as they get older. Takako sharing Having raised a kid to 17, could see parallels with the evolution of her own parenting. Having to evolve along with the child's development, including figuring out where to draw the line between protecting them and letting them experience life choices in meaningful ways. Absolutely. Like I think about the number of times I as in my raising being raised by parents came close to death and it's like, do you ever want that for your kids? It's like, no. But I what I think is a tenable risk is based on life experience and that's also part of what keeps me alive moving forward. So true. It's hard. There's no clean answer. There's no silver bullet that solves all of this. Also normal Sinva, these sound like similar conundrums previous generations had with the special needs children. Protecting them and advocating for them and respecting their right to humanness can be tricky to pull off a thousand percent. Yeah. In particular, I think the idea of many of these things, it's like we are now diagnosing and being able to identify a lot more complexity to human personalities and human capabilities. But does that change the baseline level of dignity and respect and opportunity for people to make mistakes? Where do you draw that line? I don't think there's an easy answer to that, but all of these things come up and I think that's where Ted is brilliant in what he's writing.

[Abu]

Yeah, completely. And we're not done with parenting yet, folks, because these ideas are going to come up again in the next short story. But before we get into that, let's take a quick breather. We're Halfway through the book. Yeah, we've covered the first four stories and we have just a few more left to go to wrap up Exhalation by Ted Chiang. So stick around. We will be right back in just a minute to continue with our discussion.

[Leo]

Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you're ready for some more parenting because next up we've got story number five. Daisy's patent automatic nanny. And this story is fascinating. I mean this story might as well be straight out of Daris ballot or like the archivists, you know, the, the God emperor of Dune, you know, epigraphs. This is presented as an excerpt from a fictional historical article. And this story recounts the life of Reginald Dacey, a Victorian era inventor who basically sought to create an automated mechanical perfect parent to basically like raise children, right? A nanny. A nanny to raise children according to rational scientific principles. None of this hysterical, ladies, you know, these fucking Irish people. You know, we're gonna have a robot do it. It's gonna be great. That was prototype. A robot caregiver gains some attention and you know, a bunch sell it's great. But the product's reputation is damaged irreparably when one of them throws a baby.

[Abu]

Yikes.

[Leo]

And of course it is dis discovered that that unit was tampered with. But nevertheless, the reputation was too little too late. Now the story follows his son Lionel Daisy, who was raised almost exclusively by the machine and who picks up his father's calling. His father's mission, adopting an infant and then putting it in the care of a robo nanny. Basically saying, you know what? Fuck it. I'm going to prove that a well taken care of child. I'm going to do it. It's going to work out great.

[Abu]

It works. Our product works.

[Leo]

Yeah, look, I believe in it now. Before long, the kid appears, Edmund appears unresponsive to humans and Lionel goes, oh, damn. I guess this kid genetically was not good. So checks the child into a home for kids with developmental challenges. Basically. Now enter into the story Dr. Thackeray Lambshead.

[Abu]

Oh, what a good name.

[Leo]

What a great name. Who is an expert in childhood development. He discovers Edmund Dacey can only grow, can only develop, actually physically can only continue to develop and grow and mature with robo parents. With the robotic nanny as a continued source. This is no longer a temporary band aid. This is the whole shebang.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Oops, sorry Lionel, you fucked up. And when Lionel discovers that his son is very responsive to robots and basically acts completely normally a paces expected development.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

He realizes how much his experiment fucked up this kid's life and attempts to commit himself to being a better father. Right. He says, I'm gonna take the kid home, I'll set up the robo parenting strategy at home, and I'm gonna be a good father for this poor child. The child Edmund, dies of pneumonia and shortly thereafter, Lionel Daisy also passes away. And checking a summary of this story, chatgpt says that this cautionary tale critiques over reliance on technology and the hubris of trying to engineer human nature, and then sent me a number of emojis that seemed threatening. I don't know if ChatGPT was recognizing the irony, but nevertheless, really interesting story. Love the framing. What did you think of this story overall?

[Abu]

I liked this one a lot. I can't say this is a top contender for me, but I still enjoyed it immensely. Great framing, great story, really interesting concept, and again, a very clear, impactful message at the heart of the story. I think, like, zooming out. There's just something so relevant about Dacey's assumption that the impossibly difficult and delicate task that is parenting, that is raising a child.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Can be just solved with math and science. You know, technology will handle this. And in fact, technology will do it better and more efficient.

[Leo]

Oh my God.

[Abu]

Like, come on, is that not everything we're hearing? You know, like, is that not everything? I just watched that cringy ass video that OpenAI did with Johnny I've and it was so stupid. The sales pitch of modern generative AI is like, oh, you know that art that takes artists 10,000 plus hours of hard work, blood, sweat and tears and sacrifice. What if math could just do that better and faster and more efficiently? Wouldn't that solve all of our problems? And that's what Daisy is doing. Daisy is looking at a thing that takes, to Anna's point from the previous story. 20 years of development and saying, boom, this nanny can just do it for me. I don't have to work at all. I get 20 years of my life back. This kid gets raised. It's perfect. My hands are clean. It's just so. It's so relevant to today. This is the exact conversation we're having today around artificial intelligence and in general, our human relationship with our technology, how much we all use our phones, screen time, all of these modern conversations we're having about how much technology is too much technology and where that line is and what technology can actually solve and the things that it probably can never solve, parenting being one of them, raising an intelligent, living, full human being being one of the things that Daisy assumed technology could do and it clearly can't. This is a bit of a side tangent, but this makes me think of a recent New York mag article that I was reading which was highlighting the like, basically this like apocalypse level danger that AI presents to academia right now and to students ability to learn. And more importantly, their ability to learn how to learn is disappearing at like an apocalyptic rate. In the article, for example, it said that like something wild, like 90% of stuff students surveyed have used AI in some capacity to do their homework for them. And in fact the article highlights a couple of students in particular, kind of interviews them and talks about their stories who straight up just have been submitting ChatGPT assignments like wholesale. They just like put the assignment into ChatGPT. Whatever comes out, they just email to their professor. And even professors are like, at first it was obvious, right? What was written by AI because AI is, was dumb. But like AI is improving so quickly that now it's becoming harder to even find the copy pasted stuff versus the stuff that a student naturally wrote just because it's going so quickly. And you know, like one of the kids in the article literally got into Columbia doing that and is like submitting his assignments at Columbia university just through ChatGPT.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And doesn't care. Is like openly honest about that. And it's like, yeah, I don't have to ever do my homework. ChatGPT does it.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And that, that's just like scary, right? Like that is a wild thought to have that like we are outsourcing the ability to learn to a piece of technology, just like Daisy is trying to outsource the ability to raise a child to a robot. And I think, much like Lionel, we, we will have some hard lessons to learn about this and to confront. What about you though? Where did this story land for you? What did it make you think of?

[Leo]

Well, I wanted to say quickly, I had a conversation about this with a teacher friend of mine recently because he was saying that like he's seen this happen a lot with his students as well. The tools have changed the playing field. And something that the educational systems have always failed to do is to keep abreast the modern equipment for children. And if you are basing your full educational plan on people's ability to write papers on stuff, you are failing the modern era of people. I try to delineate within myself, like, what am I used to, what am I familiar with and what's objectively, as much as there's no such thing as Objectivity, what is like, good and what is defensible. And I think the challenge is I am afraid of the future and what is happening, especially if people are getting into fucking Colombia. But I'm like, isn't it also a condemnation of Columbia's application process that someone can just fucking send words and get in then? I think that there is, there is a two pronged responsibility here for the tools to be litigated in such a way that they're not being used incorrectly. But also educators to help the children understand why it is damaging to use these tools in these ways.

[Abu]

Definitely.

[Leo]

Because in the same way that like, yeah, calculate, spell, check. I don't know how to spell. I misspell all the time. And it's not, it's not apocalyptic that I don't know how to spell. You know, I can spell pretty well. But, you know, again, it's like when it comes to, you know, certain words, it's hard, it's hard to do that. It's a. If that, for instance, you know, as an example. But the same thing. It's like, you know, the number of times people told us we had to write cursive because of how important cursive is in life and how I never use cursive once in my goddamn life. What a waste of time. So for people to say this is a waste of time to write these essays. Maybe they're fucking right. What if that's true? And I don't think it's true, but I don't know. I don't have the answers any more than anybody else has the answers. And when people are too certain about these things, there's, there is a way to use technology. And I've used ChatGPT to benefit my own learning process in different ways. But I have this groundwork of understanding how a tool should be used. Is there a right way to use it? I don't know. But I think it's also very quick to point our fingers at Gen Alpha and go, look at them handing over the responsibility of learning to chatgpt. But I also think it's the teachers failing to being given the space to really address these new tools and how these tools are best used to prepare people for a future that none of us know what it's going to look like. Are we even going to have breathable air in 50 years? And then are we, and then we're here going, oh, they don't know how to do math. It's like the world's on fire. Come on.

[Abu]

Oh my God. Right in cursive, please. It'll stop the ice caps from melting.

[Leo]

Yeah, It'll save the polar bears. You selfish, like. Oh. Anyway, I just wanted to put that out.

[Abu]

That's fair. I do think the responsibility falls on. On the governments and the proper guardrails to be implemented, and also on the educational systems and institutions themselves to address the technology. But I think what's different is spellcheck didn't let you turn your brain off in every instance of every assignment, of every homework and effectively do it for you. I just think AI as a different scale of tool.

[Leo]

It's on the same spectrum. But you're right, it's a different, you.

[Abu]

Know, that affects education in a different way. And I think that, like, my concern is that it takes away the initiative to learn how to learn. Like, you can use. You can go to ChatGPT and type in something because you're curious about something or you're learning and you use it as a step in your learning process. But to use it as the only thing that solves a problem for you and to accept it blind, whatever, it turns out blindly. Like, I full transparency. I used it to refresh my memory and summarize this book. For me, it utterly up the summary for the last book or for the last story. It mixed up every single name.

[Leo]

Wow, that's so funny.

[Abu]

And I was like, why does this be fair?

[Leo]

I also mixed up all the names. I'm like, Dana, there's Cat, there's Nat, there's Nat, and there's Dana. And there's. That's so funny.

[Abu]

Yeah. So. And again, like, that will be corrected. AI will correct. Like is advancing so quickly that. That. That's one example of a moot point where like, AI will eventually be able to summarize this book perfectly and not fuck up the names like it did when I typed it in. But I think it's just a different. You're right. I think it. This is a problem we have to solve where it's like, AI is not going away and we have to teach people how to use it as a learning tool as part of their learning process rather than like Daisy, treat it as an offloading of the process, you know, integrate it into the process. These robo nannies could help you raise the child, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Take care of the child when you got an important meeting or something, rocket to sleep or whatever. Cool. It's part of your process.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

But to fully say technology, take this whole thing away from me and do it for me.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Because I don't want to do it anymore. That, that I think is different and that, that's where my fear lies in the education system.

[Leo]

It's saying to a hammer like, you're going to do the whole build. You're going to build the whole building because you've demonstrated you're very good at hitting nails. And it's like, no, the hammer is very good at hitting nails. That's what it does. And similarly, LLMs are very good at very specific things. They are not very good at everything. And when we say we're going to use them for everything, we are failing to utilize a tool. Well.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, fact checking is a thing I would never trust ChatGPT to do, you know, because it like, utterly got the facts wrong of this book. It hallucinates.

[Leo]

AI doesn't know anything.

[Abu]

AI doesn't know anything. It regurgitates information. So it can also regurgitate wrong information. That's neither here nor there. But like, you're absolutely, you're absolutely correct. Like, it is a tool meant for a slice of the process, meant to tackle a certain segment of things.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

My last thought on this, I will say I. The whole AI conversation that's currently happening in the world right now, I always come back to this one, like, silly tweet I saw a while back, I'm paraphrasing, but the tweet basically said, like, why the fuck is AI constantly being sold as the thing that will create art and take away, like artists work rather than doing my fucking laundry, the actual thing I don't want to do, you know, like, yeah, how come this tool is being used to actually take the joy part of life off, like offload the joyous part of life where I'm create art and explore things and write and read and yeah. All of the creative stuff and take the mundane shit away from me, do my dishes and do my laundry so that I have more time to practice my 10,000 hours of creating art myself and expressing my humanity.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Rather than the robotic function of scrubbing my goddamn dishes so I can eat dinner. That is, that is funny to me.

[Leo]

That's so funny. Yeah.

[Abu]

That cuts through the bullshit for me of like, yeah, man, I don't want to be sold AI that makes art for me. I want to be sold AI that does work for me. That I don't want to do.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And that's, that's the distinction of what it's used for. I think that's. That's the point you're honing in on what we choose to use for it and the scope of the tool.

[Leo]

Right. Like printing presses freed up a lot of human hours to do other stuff that's going to shift and change as technology evolves.

[Abu]

Big questions.

[Leo]

Anyway, back to Ted Chiang. Broadly. So this robo nanny story. I also wanted to say you've talked a lot about this, kind of like handing humanity over to automation. That's super resonant for sure. The other side of this that I thought was really interesting is how a lot of the broad assumptions we've made about childhood development over the years and about what is normal, what is a normal mind. Basically, Edmund. Right. This child was not developmentally challenged. It was early life things that, that basically led to an unrecognized, undiagnosed thing.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

That once that was accounted for, he could live and grow normally and like that was great. Now it might have been too little too late and he ended up passing away. But I can't help but think about the conversations today about like autism spectrum disorder.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Where it's like we look back on hundreds of years of human history and probably some of the greatest contributors to human knowledge were autistic. And like there's nothing wrong with that. It's just how they are. It's how the brain is wired. It's not, as our fucking RFK Jr would say. It's not a. It's not a. Oh my God, he's used some fucking insane words for. I don't want to. I won't give his words platform. He's dumb. He's dumb and wrong. The point is it's like this is just how people are. And then better understanding that and working with it is the goal. Not being like, well, they're fucked. Put them in a building somewhere. I really appreciated this story from that perspective as well, that child care is multifaceted and humans are multifaceted. And the sooner we recognize that it's not something you're just going to put into ChatGPT or you're not going to give to the robotic nanny that moves its arms at a perfect RPM for baby soothing.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's like the sooner we can remember that the human parts of life are important.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a great call out. It's like that one quote where it's like if you judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree, you're going to think it's a dumb fish.

[Leo]

Fucking sucks. Bad fish.

[Abu]

You can't climb this tree. Fuck you, fish.

[Leo]

You know, it's a tree climbing quiz. All the other fish failed it too, but you know, the monkeys passed.

[Abu]

This is a standardized tree climbing test. Pass the goddamn test so you can get into standardized tree climbing college, you dumbass fish.

[Leo]

There's a lot of trees to climb.

[Abu]

Which I think is a always has been and always will be. A valid criticism of the education system is like, there's only so much you can railroad teaching.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Until you run into an Edmund who just will never succeed in the railroaded standardized system and needs the robo nanny, but then will suddenly achieve the same level as the quote unquote regular kids in the railroad system on the train. Edmund just requires a different set of tools and a different environment to equally thrive in. Just like the fish needs to be in water and not on a goddamn tree.

[Leo]

So strange. So weird. Who could have seen that coming, you know?

[Abu]

So that's a really great point. Good call out.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's something that kind of came to mind. And then finally I'll just say that, like. Yeah, broadly, I think the lesson of this story is clear. I like that Reginald Dacey is our introduction to this idea and he's the one that invented the nanny. But through his failure, and then also Lionel's failure to kind of take up his father's claims, we are seeing that this broad assumption that you can automate, mechanize, you know, take responsibility and the humanity out of child rearing. Where it comes to. When it comes to human. To human interaction, nothing should take the place of love. Nothing can take the place of love. That feels like a warning that Leto too would very much approve of.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

I liked the story a lot. It was cool.

[Abu]

Yeah, I liked it too. And obviously it sent me down like a. Like an AI rabbit hole as well.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

Okay. God, this next one's a banger. We're going so long. We need to like, move a little faster.

[Leo]

I know. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. Story number six. Truth of fact, Truth of feeling.

[Leo]

Is that what it's called? My God.

[Abu]

Yeah. Is this what it's called? I don't know. I've called it like 20, even in my text to you over the past couple weeks. I've called it like 10 different names. But I've talked about the story a lot, specifically with, like, people. I've been telling about this book and with you, Leo, very quick, I'm going to lightning through this summary. So this story is like a two for one. We're seeing two parallel stories happen. In story A. We are following the perspective of the journalist Jeffrey in the not so distant future. And Jeffrey is writing an article or doing research for an article about this new product by the company Whetstone, remem. And we learned that in this future, everyone basically has every moment of their lives recorded on video through whatever, through their glasses, through body cams, whatever. And what REM does is that it's automatically able to recall any moment from your recordings, from your life recordings, and is able to do that almost automatically. You might be in a conversation and talking about that one time you saw Dune Part 2. And suddenly in the corner, a screen will pop up with the exact recording of the theater you visited to see Dune Part 2. You. It's like Siri on fucking so much cocaine. And what's kind of crazy is that Whetstone's, like, sales pitch for Remem is this should take the place of your organic memory. Brains are inefficient. Brains can't recall things perfectly. As we all know, you forget things all the time. Remem will just do it for you. Offload that task, baby. Let Remem handle every time you need to recall a specific memory from your past. And you'll get a. Get the 100% truth every time because it's recorded.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So the journalist is sort of reflecting on this and reflecting on his own life as a father and sort of the troubled relationship he's had with his daughter. His wife left that caused a rift between them. And this all sort of builds up to the moment where the father realizes. So, you know, he. Jeffrey, tests remembrance, goes back to a specific fight he remembers having with his daughter. And he realizes, oh, shit, I was the. It was me. I was the problem in that fight. It wasn't my daughter being a brat. I'm actually a shittier. Oh, my God. I'm a shittier father than I ever thought. And I've been lying to myself this whole time.

[Leo]

Not only did. Did I say the shitty thing, I remembered her saying the shitty thing. So what does that say about me? That I gave her the burden of the thing that I brought to the conversation? Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. I didn't even, like, justify what I said or something. I literally offloaded my guilt onto her. And that's how I remember that incident. Just showing us the fallibility of memory and how emotions play into that and everything. We've all experienced this, of course. The journalist then kind of goes to his daughter, is really repentant and apologizes. The daughter, quite harsh, but honest, which I respected, and was like, yeah, dad, this is why we've always had a bad relationship. You're a shitty dad.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I've needed to distance myself from you and go through much therapy to get to a place where we could even talk.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And the journalist promises, like, hey, you know, now that I've used REMEM to realize this about myself, I'm going to continue analyzing myself, analyzing my relationship with you in the past. The truth of it, not what I remember of it. And I will, I promise to be a better father moving forward. And the daughter's like, okay, we'll see. Clearly, still skeptical.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also, don't come to me every time you want to feel better.

[Abu]

Yeah. Don't offload your guilt by coming here crying every day. Yeah, totally. Which I loved. Like, amazing boundary setting from the daughter. Honestly. Goals.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I need to do this with my own parents.

[Leo]

Clearly has gone to therapy. And it worked.

[Abu]

It worked. So that's our A plot. Intercut between all of this is the B plot. And this is the story of Jingi, a Teev native whose tribe has recently been visited by a European priest, a missionary, Mosby. And Mosby teaches Jijingi how to read and write, which is an alien concept for the Tee people, who in fact, remember their history and share their stories orally. And this truly begins to reshape Tujingi's worldview. He finds himself sort of bumping up against the conflict between what is accurate, what has been written down, perhaps, and what is true or what feels true.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And eventually, Chijingi realizes that over the course of many years, as he has learned to read and write, he has also taken on the European way of thinking. He's beginning to distance himself from the Teev way of thinking and prioritizing feelings in oral tradition. And he is beginning to revere the truth over what is right. And I really loved, for example, the judicial proceedings that happened in the Teev courts and how the European Mosby was confused and Chijingi had to explain. Like, in our traditions, we think both defendants are right because for them, that is what they feel is right. Nothing is written down. And this court here is going to establish what the agreed upon truth is, whether or not it is actually true, because it's never been written down. We are going to come to an agreement and say, this is the truth moving forward. That's how we operate. That's a wildly different way of holding judicial proceedings than we do in modern times with the written word. So the story then ends. The story kind of loops up and ends, and we realize, oh, okay. Jeffrey has actually been in his article writing and telling the story of Tajingi, which he studied. Rather than writing a report on Remem, he tells his story and Jingi story intentionally in his article to illustrate this point, to basically talk about how writing changed Jijingi's worldview and that remembrance has the ability to do the same. For better and for worse. It will change human lives and human interactions forever. And whether or not that's good or bad, only time and. Or next season's Black mirror will tell. And that's where our story, this story wraps up.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What did you think of this one?

[Leo]

Oh, man, I loved this story on a reread. In fact. It's really seeing the way as we are introduced to Geoffrey's tale, seeing the way that he presents his truth in the story that he's writing for us before REME shows us, and also him what really happened with his daughter. I think that's excellent. I think it was really fun to kind of be on that ride with him. And rereading in particular was really fun. I liked this quote a lot quote, people are made of stories. Our memories are not the impartial accumulation of every second we've lived. They are the narrative that we assembled out of selected moments. End quote.

[Abu]

Beautiful.

[Leo]

What an incredible little moment. And I definitely felt very in touch with. Yeah. Just the way that narrative is built up, the way we build up identities. And who are we? And who is Leo? Right. I find myself, especially in my 30s, like, I've been really bumping up against that. Like, is there an immutable Leo? Is there a me that exists at the heart of every anecdote about me or that involves me and my whole journey? Is it just the people I've surrounded myself with? Is it reinforcement that I am a certain way? A little bit. So I find myself attracted to people who are like that. And then I. They reinforce that. It's like, I don't know. And I think that's been the sort of, like, hardest thing to come to terms with is this idea of, like, I'm not sure where one's identity begins and ends with the stories we tell us about ourselves.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the way that we sort of self identify. So again, just seeing that was really cool. I also. Just the last chunk of the story where it becomes clear that Jeffrey is writing all of this as a. An exploration of the theme.

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

I think Ted.

[Abu]

Ted, man.

[Leo]

Ted was on a fucking banger banger weekend when he wrote this quote. We don't normally think of it as such, but writing is a technology, which means that a literate person is someone whose thought processes are technologically mediated. We became cognitive cyborgs as soon as we became fluent readers. And the consequences of that were profound. End quote.

[Abu]

Cognitive cyborgs.

[Leo]

He. I mean, God damn. I mean, I think about that with. With music. And I was. I had a long conversation recently with friends about, in the barbershop music tradition, you know, hello, my baby, hello. You teach music orally, you don't really do the sheet music that much historically, because it was a sort of like layperson's music where you would just like teach your buddies how to sing. And you experience the music very differently that way. When you're not tied to what the sheet music on a piece of paper looks like, right? Like, you can think about sheet music and literacy there as one means of experiencing music. But I will say, viscerally, it feels different when you're singing a piece of music that you've learned through reading sheet music and you're singing through a long piece of music that you learned from someone teaching you. It is viscerally different. And there is so much that's the same, but there is so much that's different. So I found this to be extremely resonant.

[Abu]

It gives her music structure, but it also gives fences the music in to the balance of that sheet music's capabilities and that way of thinking about music.

[Leo]

And it gives it structure, but it also doesn't necessarily. Because the music music is structured. It's defined by when the note starts and stops. There's always rhythm, there's always harmonics. There's always. So you can have the same fully formed piece of music with or without sheet music as the initial experience of the song. And that fully determines how it physically feels in the body and cognitively in the mind. Am I getting up to that point where I jump up a sixth and that's what it looked like on the sheet music, or is it the point where I adjust the tension in my throat a certain way to make the note fit into the chord that perfect. It's fascinating to experience. And this really, like, unsurfaced a lot of those feelings for me. So I love the story. I think this is. This is a really, really, really great story. And it's just excellent. And to your point, the way that Nicole, his daughter, responds to him, I was like, my mind was blown. I was like, what an incredible way of saying, like, hey, I appreciate that you're going on this journey. This does not need to drag me down into the same journey that you're going on. I don't like owe that to you. So I'm here for you, but only within what I think is healthy for me. And I thought that was just the most incredible. So good, healthy boundary setting is just amazing to see. So, yeah, very, very cool. I also love just Ted Chang continues to like write these stories with interesting framing, where this is a story written by Jeffrey for us through via ted. Right. Again, similar to reading Lato's journals via Frank Herbert.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

We are reading the writing of the written writer basically, which is very, very cool.

[Abu]

Yeah. I mean, come to think of it, all of these stories, short stories, have a framing, right?

[Leo]

Life cycle of software objects is omniscient.

[Abu]

That's omniscient.

[Leo]

We're just seeing that.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's like Ted loves a frame.

[Leo]

A framing device loves a frame.

[Abu]

And it works, you know, it works beautifully. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love this. I love this story so much. I texted you earlier this week and I was like, dude, this whole story is so God Emperor coded. Like it's just dripping with God Emperor themes and ideas. Like, I loved this story so much. And in particular, as interesting as Jeffrey's journey was, and as much as I liked it, it did kind of play out how I expected. I was like, okay, yeah, he's going to use, remember, there's going to be a twist, it'll reveal something and he'll learn something. Blah, blah, blah. To Jingi Story really stayed with me though. Like, I simply cannot stop thinking about Jingi Story and just the way his entire worldview, his way of thinking, his perception, his concept of the truth, a thing that we like to think is absolute and a foundation upon which we can build our beliefs, our societies, our realities changes because of this tool, because of writing. His idea of what truth is changes is just mind bending stuff. You know, this is the kind of story that makes you stop dead in your tracks and go, oh my God, have I been wrong my entire life in the assumptions I've made, right? Like being literate is like, at least for us bougie coastal New York elites is just, you know, it's expected. You're just, you're like, you're literate, you know how to read and write. That's just like a base thing. Everyone goes to school and is expected to learn that. But to read the story and go, maybe that is not the ideal. Or if it is, maybe there, there's worth and some caution in assuming that reading and writing is the end. All Be all way of communication, memory records, storytelling. And I love that. I love the kind of story that makes you stop dead in your tracks and go, oh, my God, I need to rethink everything I've been told. And this really illustrated that for me. I also think Takako commented earlier that Ted Chiang is very good at grounding his characters within their culture and their time. And I loved that. Throughout the Jijingi portions, as Jijingi is learning to read and write, there are these beautiful moments in the story that illustrate the limitations of the written word in Jijingi's thought process. Like, he thinks of the space between words and the structure of sentences as, like, the skeleton. You know, he's like, oh, okay, the sentence is a skeleton, and the words in between are the bones and joints that hold the skeleton together.

[Leo]

That is.

[Abu]

That is how Jijingi thinks. Because, of course, he doesn't know what a fucking word is. What?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so I loved that, like, we got to see him learn reading and writing through his worldview and then watch it reshape that worldview. What a beautiful way to tell that story. And it really reminded me of Leto, too, and how Leto, too, is always telling Moneo about how history, or writing in his journals about how history can never capture the whole human experience. The words can't capture Jijingi's feelings, and the histories that are written cannot express fully the truth of being Jijingi. All that in a word, my Lord, right? Words contain many things, but they do not contain the entirety of human experience or the entirety of that human who wrote them. And so there are limitations. Like any technology, there are boundaries within which you can work and limitations that you cannot exceed. And I loved that we illustrated that throughout Tajingi's story. Here, Jijingi gained and lost things in learning how to read and write. He could access objective truth. For example, because it was written down, he could organize his thoughts more efficiently. You know, the concept of, let me write what I'm going to say later, blowing his mind was, like, really cute, right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Because up to this point, he's been told, oh, only things in the past are written down. And then when the preacher's like, oh, I haven't given this sermon yet. I'm just writing it down to organize my thoughts for tomorrow, he's like, what the fuck? This is future writing? Is this time travel writing? What the fuck is happening here? That's, like, really endearing to watch Jingi learn that and go through that. But it also shows you, like, that it unlocks a superpower for him. He's like, wait a second, I can do this too. But of course, over the, like, disputes in the teev tribe, we see that he's beginning to, like, lose his tea values and beginning to lose, like, that value of what feels right.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

He's questioning the chief and he's losing those values that he held on to and also kind of losing the concept of. Here's my analogy that I think is helpful to think about this. If you are like a Star wars lore nerd or even if you're a Dune lore nerd. Right. We go to the written word of the sacred texts, the original films by George Lucas, the original books by Frank Herbert, and we say, this is codified law. This is canon. You can't go against that. Fuck you if you do. And jijinki is basically saying, like, that's what's happening. Right, Chieftain? Like, this is canon. This is what was written down. And the chieftain is saying, that's not what's best for us right now, though.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Right. And we can decide on a different truth for this tribe and for the betterment of our people if that is required. And it is okay to do that. Revisionist history is okay in this instance, which to people born and raised within the context of the written word feels like a dirty thing. Right. What? We're going to revise written history. Why? I'm going to go back and scribble out who my parents were and rewrite someone else. Because it's necessary. Yeah, that feels so dirty. But that's a normal thing in culture. And because he's begun to rely on the written word to Jingi has lost that. So he's breaking the canon. Right. Jingi's like, yeah, man, who cares what color the goddamn lightsaber is? Make it the cool color it's gonna be now in this movie.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

And you know, Star wars nerds would hate jajinki, honestly. Or hate. Hate the thief people because they're all about breaking the canon and doing what's. What's best right now and what feels correct right now and sets us up for a better future future. It's fascinating. I could go on and on about this. I'm kind of ranting now, but I loved this story so much. It gave me so much to think about. One of the best in this book, I think, by far.

[Leo]

Yeah, agreed. Oh, yeah. There's a lot to say. Even as you were talking, I was like, oh, I have, like, three more things to share. We just don't have Time. There's no time to, like, get into the weeds, so we'll move on from there. Our seventh story is the Great Silence. This is nice and quick. Another short one. This is told from the perspective of an unnamed Puerto Rican parrot who reflects on the common ground parrots and humanity share as he and his fellow parrots go extinct due to human activities.

[Abu]

Yikes.

[Leo]

Yeah. If you felt good about the way the future's going, well, no more parrots now. How do you feel?

[Abu]

Sci fi, baby.

[Leo]

Sci fi, baby. Our first feathered narrator poses some good questions about humanity's search for alien life, despite unraveled mysteries right here on Earth that we seem to be ignoring. And the story is really short. I mean, it's really. It's kind of jumping. And he sees little paragraphs from thought to thought. I would like to think that the cadence of the paragraphs, feeling kind of unusual, is giving us kind of a look into how he's thinking, how the parrot's cognitive process works, where you're thinking in these, like, chunks of really brilliant thought.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But there's this really great. There's some really great quotes throughout. I enjoyed this one quite a bit. Quote. Human activity has brought my kind to the brink of extinction. But I don't blame them for it. They didn't do it maliciously. They just weren't paying attention, end quote. Which is both very nice of the parrot not to be too angry at us, but also heartbreaking. My God, what a condemnation that we're just oblivious and we're just stomping on ant hills having no better, no awareness of what we're doing.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the story ends with the conclusion foregone. The parrots will go extinct. Their incredible culture, their language, their mythology, the stories they tell, even the fact that they are the intelligent life that they are will be lost. And that's just the nature of humanity's blind spots. And of course, our narrator leaves us with a final message. Quote, you be good. I love you. End quote.

[Abu]

Beautiful.

[Leo]

Abu, what did you think?

[Abu]

You know, I don't know. For once on today's recording, I don't have a lot to say here. I think this is a simple, very sweet story told in Ted Chang's lovely poetic prose. It's a good one. Not one of the best in this book, but I think it is a. It's a nice story that left me feeling a little bit sad, a little bit hopeful and quite contemplative, which most of these stories left me. Yeah, I don't have a ton to say what about you?

[Leo]

Same. I mean, surprising nobody. I liked this story a lot. And ultimately, same. Quietly sad. I appreciated that it wasn't like, mean or melodramatic. I think oftentimes, like, stories can get a little heavy handed. This was very gentle and I appreciated that it almost made it more effective because I was so disarmed by its tone. I do think that in hundreds of years we're going to look back on like the fact that we eat octopuses and I think we're going to be like, wow, we really shouldn't. They're so smart. We barely understand their intelligence. So I do think that there's quite a bit of resonance in the way that in hindsight we're going to realize that we're doing quite a bit wrong right now.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But that's the story.

[Abu]

And the sad part of this story is like, in many cases it will be too late. We will have lost the octopus by the time we realize we shouldn't have been eating them the whole time.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Lovely little story. Okay. Story number eight, our penultimate short story takes place in a world where science directly supports creationism. Man, I fucking love this one too.

[Leo]

Jesus, this is great.

[Abu]

Yeah, this is so good. The examples given in the story for how science supports creationism is that tree rings, which indicate years of life for trees. If you go back far enough, eventually the rings stop and there's just a perfectly flat center, implying that the trees were just kind of popped into existence at some point in their history. There are also primordial human remains that have been discovered that don't have navels, implying that they were never birthed, that they too just popped into existence by God at some point. Thus, science in this world supports and is like, almost entirely based on creationism, on proving the fact that this is God's work, that we exist in very interesting perspective. The story basically follows an archaeologist, Dorothea Morel, whose faith over the course of the tale is shaken when an astronomer discovers that Earth is actually not the center of this universe.

[Leo]

Insane. Incredible. Yeah.

[Abu]

Suggesting that humanity may thus not be the center of God's focus. And maybe we are not God's mission, we're just a byproduct of whatever experiment is actually happening over there. This shakes Torotea to her core. This is going to be a bombshell report that comes out. It's going to shake the scientific community, the religious community, and things are looking rough. We're on shaky ground all of a sudden. But this revelation does force Dorothea to confront this existential crisis that she now faces. And really ask the deep questions about human history and her own life. If we are not special, if we are not the center of God's attention, what is the purpose of our lives? Really beautiful stuff. What did you think of this story?

[Leo]

Oh, I mean, I love this story so goddamn much. This to spoil power ranking a bit. This makes my top three nice. The framing is brilliant. Again, I think Ted will frame a story in a way that I'm like, are you allowed to do that? Are you allowed to Framing this story as like nightly prayers to God and one letter to her son, sister, or her cousin. And then it's incredible. And it serves the. It's not just fun. It's not just cool. It's not just creative. It serves the narrative really, really beautifully. Because we also see. I don't know if you noticed, but one of her last prayers to God doesn't end with Amen.

[Abu]

Yeah, the one where she's really shaken. Yeah.

[Leo]

And that's the end. And it's like, wow. To show how she's. The structure itself is suffering because of how she's feeling as the narrator. It's unbelievable. This also had some, like, really banger quotes. And on the topic of the, like, Yosemite Cathedral being built at great expense of the church, and they're all looking for donations to get this job done. Doroteo wonders at whether it's a good use of church money in the modern era. And I thought this quote was so beautiful. Quote, for me, science is the true modern cathedral, an edifice of knowledge every bit as majestic as anything made of stone. It fulfills all the goals that Yosemite Cathedral does and more. And I wish more people appreciated that end quote.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

Which I thought was really beautiful. I think, you know, when I've talked to my friends who are theists and who are also scientists and physicists and they believe and, you know, for them, many of them, I don't want to put words in their mouths, but as they've explained to me, their study of the world is an embodiment of the curiosity and the knowledge that God gave them them. So then if we treat human scientific knowledge, the entire body of what we've discovered about this incredible universe we've been given, if we treat that as this ultimate cathedral that we're building in the glory of God, like, that's so cool. I love that so much. Anyway, I loved this story. I've thought about this story a lot. I like this alternative what if idea. You know, you're finding like all these little bits of evidence.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Oh, man, it's so good. Anyway, I loved it. I think it's incredible. What about you? What did you think of this one?

[Abu]

Same. Ditto. I mean, I was incredibly moved by this story. I loved the ideas that it was exploring. Right. The big questions, once again being tackled here by ted. Finding your purpose in life. Human curiosity as you just talked about, celebrating it, recognizing its innate nature. And I really liked the warning in this story of viewing the universe through this, like, anthropocentric lens, like, to say, we are the center of God's focus and we, humanity, are the center of the universe, and thus that is where our purpose lies. This is all part of that. That singular plan that revolves around us.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Having that shattered and what that. What that does to society and to people on a personal level. And just that warning, you know, it's not all about us. It's not all about you, you know, so fucking chill. Like, take it easy. I think that's a very, like, God Emperor idea. There are limits to studying the universe as if it is a machine operating based on the laws of cause and effect. Right. Like we, humanity, are the effect of God. Who is the cause. God caused us to happen, and we are the effect, and we are that focus. Or relying on the base assumption that things in the universe happen because of other things, that it has to be that way. Frank and Leto too, in those stories, argued like, does it always have to be that way? And in fact, you're limiting yourself by thinking of it in only those terms. I think here we're seeing a similar warning. You're limiting yourself and thinking that there is a plan, that God has a plan, and that we all, like puzzle pieces, fit neatly into it. That might be a comforting thought to some. But chaos does exist. And Dorothea, perhaps here is realizing slowly that maybe there's no plan. Maybe we are random. This byproduct of random chance. And Frank Herbert, the Bene Gesserit, like many of those stories would argue, embrace the cast. It's okay.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

There is no godly vision for humanity. Dorotea. And you know what crazy thought. But that's fine. You're still here. You're still doing your work. And in fact, that's the conclusion that Dorothea comes to, which I really appreciated because this story could have gone in a very black mirror direction and ended with like, totally. Dorothea's like, total breakdown, society collapsing. Oh, no. Dark, edgy, it's all over. Instead, much like many of these stories, even the darkness, we see the light within the Darkness of what's taking place. She finds meaning here. I want to share one of the last things she says in one of her final prayers. If humanity is not the reason for which the universe was made, I still wish to understand the way it operates. We human beings may not be the answer to the question why, but I will keep looking for the answer to how. The search is my purpose. Not because you chose it for me, Lord, but because I chose it for myself. Amen. End quote. Mic drop.

[Leo]

Oh, Dorothea. So good. Doroteo.

[Abu]

I want her to stomp on my face.

[Leo]

All right. Yeah.

[Abu]

So I love that, you know, just the. The empowering message there. The fact that even though her faith is shaken, her faith in herself is in fact strengthened. And she, rather than breaking down, has found a way to build herself up even stronger and to continue her pursuit. Beautiful. Just beautiful all around. I love this. This would have been in my top three, but it's of kind. I dare not put it in top four. It's like 3.5 for me. It just missed my top three.

[Leo]

I appreciate it. Also, she talked about how if you look back in this, we are God's focus and everything. The one miracle that existed, the one true miracle that existed, was his choice to create the universe. And because of that, it was the only moment that wasn't mechanical. It was the only moment that didn't have a preceding cause. This was an effect without a cause. And that's miraculous about it. But if God is entirely focused on this other planet that's not here. That means every choice by every person on this planet is miraculous. And there's like a new reframing is a miracle. And I thought that was so beautiful. It's like. It's excellent. So, yeah, I'm right there with you.

[Abu]

It's so good.

[Leo]

The fact that it didn't become this despondent thing. And also, weirdly, was one of the few stories where it's like, oh, yeah, humans do have agency. And that's something to celebrate and to be really to relish in. In a way that I appreciate it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah, Love it. Okay, well, that carries us to our final story. Only two and a half hours in. Not bad Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. So this is the requisite parallel universe story. No sci fi story collection would be completely complete without it. And this is a concept Ted Chang tackles in a near future world. Prisms are developed. This is a product that when you push a button, either a blue light or a red light turns on. It's determined randomly and in one reality, the red light turns on. In the other reality, a blue light turns on. And that is the inciting quantum moment that splits off two parallel universes where the only difference is which light went on, which light would.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Now, that being said, that will then change everything eventually, even just the that the photons being released changes full global weather patterns in a matter of months and ultimately even genetics. What child is born? What turns out five years, six years after that inciting button press, you've got fully different realities.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

So if you are going into a big job interview and you want to know whether or not you got it, in every reality, you can push that button, you know, two months before your job interview, then a few months after that. There are ways of communicating between the two timelines. So PRISM allows you to actually exchange information with that other reality and of course, all of the human conundrums that come out of that possibility.

[Abu]

Juicy.

[Leo]

So juicy. The story primarily follows, and again, by the way, this is where lesser authors would fail and focus too much on the technology. This is where Ted really, laser focuses on humans and human desires to understand cause and effect. And did I make the right choice?

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

That fear that we all have explored ad infinitum or whatever, however you say that word. Now, the story follows primarily Natasha, Morrow and Dana as they grapple with the realities of this technology. Nat, Natasha and Morrow are con artists who work at a company that basically sell, like, rents out prisms to people, and they basically con an old lady into giving up a bunch of money. And they also identify someone who has a prism that's going to be worth a lot of money for a celebrity whose husband died in a car accident, but has a prism in which that alternate reality, the husband's alive. So their goal is to con them to basically cooperate with their para selves in order to make a ton of money. And even Dana, who is the therapist leading this, like, support group for people who struggle with prisms. She herself struggles with her own life choices and wonders about, you know, the, the choices she's made and her responsibility, the way things turn out.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, eventually, one of Morrow's cons catches up with him. He gets shot and killed. Natasha opens up in one of Dana's support group sessions about Morrow's death, and the two connect over a discussion of personal choice and responsibility. Nat then has to finish Morrow's big final con on her own, goes to Los Angeles to convince a celebrity to buy the prism, but instead she decides to just give it for Free. It's kind of a nice little moment ending of her. Of her story.

[Abu]

Really touching.

[Leo]

And to thank Dana, Nat finds a bunch of prisms where Dana and her childhood friend Vanessa have different outcomes from a drug incident. And Dana realizes that she doesn't need to feel guilty for how someone else's life turned out anymore. And again, recognizing relationships that can be abusive and people who manipulate you and your feelings of guilt to feel a certain way and act a certain way.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Really complex story overall. You know, a lot. A lot of moving pieces. And again, one of the few stories in this book that isn't framed as someone telling you a story. But what do you think, Abu? What did you think of this final story in the collection?

[Abu]

I had a lot of fun with this one. I think it's another, as you pointed out, it's another example of how great Ted is at examining the very human realities of new technology. How it affects us socially, personally, economically, emotionally. All the facets of the technology rather than the technology itself. And the way Ted Chiang is able to just, like, weave that into his stories. The prisms are central to this story. The story can't exist without the prisms, but it is not about the prisms. It is about the people using the prisms.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Abu]

In particular, I really loved how this story handled the question of how much we value our personal choices, how much those matter with chaos and randomness, basically, butterfly effect, which is central to the idea of the prisms. Right. A divergent path will eventually start diverging dramatically because of the compounding interest of differences, minuscule differences that begin to add up over time. The weather being 2 degrees off this day could have a wild ripple effect to something that happens 20 years from now. That effect is kind of key to how the prisms operate. And because of that effect, actually, you can't use a prism as a point of comparison, or at least it loses its value as a point of comparison over time because of these divergences. But we see, for example, how Lyle, the support group member who's struggling with prism use, still goes on this, like, really awkward date with a girl that he knows his para self is happily dating because he thinks he deserves that, too. Or he thinks, like, it'll work out for him too, because, right, it worked out for the other.

[Leo]

Compatible. She's single. We're compatible.

[Abu]

Look how happy we are in that reality. I can have that happiness here as well, or I. Or even I deserve that happiness here as well, because my other version has it. And, you know, you read that at least I read that. And I was like, bro, what are you thinking? This was. This was never gonna work. What are you doing? But the reality is we do this all the time, right. We know intellectually that, like, for example, if you're an ambitious person, it's not a race. Being successful is not a zero sum game. Someone else's success does not mean you've lost. You're running your own race. Comparison is the joy is the thief of joy. We know all of those things. Things intellectually. But you can bet your ass I'm comparing myself to people that are more successful than me all the time.

[Leo]

All the time.

[Abu]

Constantly. I'm constantly making myself feel bad about myself by doing that. And Lyle is doing the same thing. He. And, like, what adds to this, the prism element of all of this, is who better to compare yourself to than yourself?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In another timeline, because there's. You don't even get to say, like, oh, you know, Childish Gambino is just, like, so handsome and musically talented. That's why he's better than me. I just am not that. I could never be that. But if other. Abu is, like, best friends with Childish Gambino, like, constantly is putting out albums with Childish Gambino and is musically talented.

[Leo]

I'm like, featured on this Is America. It's crazy.

[Abu]

What excuse do I have now? What's happening? Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant. You know, like, at first you're like, lyle, you dumb as. But then I paused and was like, this is me. I would also be like, why can't I date that girl? It's really beautifully done. At first, Lyle is pathetic, but then slowly you become very empathetic to his situation. And there's a couple of other examples like that throughout the book, too, throughout this short story. And, you know, I think what I really appreciate about this story is that Ted Chiang avoids a very common pitfall in sci fi. I read a lot of sci fi, a lot of sci fi stories, are tempted to just lean into the grim dark to be like, look how horrible prisms are, and look what devastation they've reaped on humanity. This is my warning to you. Don't fuck with parallel timelines.

[Leo]

Right, right, right.

[Abu]

Instead, Ted is like, there's good here too, man. Like, I don't know. Who am I to say that prisms.

[Leo]

Are just sports betting, celebrity gossip? Like, yeah, it's like, hobbies have changed.

[Abu]

But it's being used as well. But also, at the end, we see how there's a very personal evolution for Natasha and Dana as well. Because of prisms, Natasha witnesses a horrible death. Marrow like friend in quotations, but whatever. Her, like, con artist partner. But then is able to have this very beautiful. She makes this very beautiful decision with a celebrity where she's like, there's an objective good that can be done here. Someone is grieving. I can give them for free a tool that will help them work through that grief to reconnect with someone they loved. That is an objective good the prism can do. Dana is able to let go of her guilt and grow as a person and recognize her relationship and friendship with Vanessa is toxic and she's being used because of prisms.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

So there are objective goods being done with this technology as well. So I love that all throughout all nine of these stories, actually, Ted is able to avoid that temptation to be so prescriptive, to say, this is bad. This is grim, dark. Don't do it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think that is. I will say, as much as I love Black Mirror, we've been referencing it a lot today. One of my good friends, who I respect very much, an amazing filmmaker, hates Black Mirror. Like, constantly argues with me about Black Mirror because he's like, it's just so grim, dark man. Like, every takeaway in Black Mirror is like, what if it got as bad as it could possibly get? And to some extent, I get it. That's valid. I don't think every Black Mirror episode is like that. The best ones actually manage to avoid that. But I get it. A lot of Black Mirror is like, what if everything was bad all the time? Isn't it scary?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And all throughout these short stories, I really want to hand it to Ted for being able to avoid that temptation and to be able to look at things with nuance.

[Leo]

Yeah, 1,000%.

[Abu]

Wow. I just talked for so long. I'm so sorry. What did you think of this short story as we wrap up?

[Leo]

No, it's great. Again, I think this is one of those stories that also, because it goes on a little bit longer, I didn't really feel it have its hooks in me. And reading it felt a little bit like at the tail end of this book, after so many great standout stories, I think of it as a little bit lower in the bunch if I were to rank them all. But overall, it's so excellent. I love the way we get these details of Daena and Nat's perspectives. You know, Nat notices this moment that Dana's affected by. Someone says what they say. Meanwhile, Dana notices that Nat's always looking to Lyle. So we get this like, tease out of what people know and when they know it, which I really appreciate. You know, I love the kind of hard sci fi techno talk, but these human stakes at the heart of everything. And yeah, I, I also found myself like one of the first conversations that Dana has with one of her clients is around. Would knowing what your paraself is doing change how you, you behave moving forward? And similarly with, I think the guy named Jeff, I think his name was. Or no, her Jorge comes in and is like, well, I was, I like vandalized my boss's car, but my parasols didn't. And she's like, okay, do you think that negates what you did? And he goes, no, but it reflects on who I am.

[Abu]

Yeah, I'm absolved of guilt because I don't do this in any other timeline. So I'm still a good person.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's like, percentage wise, I'm not as violent as maybe that seems. And it's like, right. But okay, sure, you know, and so I really appreciate the kind of ways that this is shown. But I also think this, like, oftentimes people want more data or more answers because they hope it'll change the way they behave. But ultimately the change in behavior is something that you just have. And you can choose not to be violent. Whether or not you perceive yourself as violent. It's not a foregone conclusion. And oftentimes people will treat. Even if it's like, you know, well, horoscope wise, I'm an Aries, so I'm combative and that's the end of that decision and I'm just going to be that way forever. And it's like, or maybe that's the beginning of the journey and that's the work you put in and that's the, you know, if you find out your paraself is super violent and killed a bunch of people, yeah, maybe that affects what you do tomorrow and you make sure that you work on these things that apparently are not so far off. But ultimately, what is your identity? Yeah, outside of. I love it. And again, I think the questions and the, the answers, it doesn't provide, but the questions it asks. Great time again, even though it's lower on the list, if I were to rank all of the stories, I still think this is head and shoulders above so many other authors. It's incredible.

[Abu]

Yeah, I agree. Okay, those are the nine short stories in this amazing book. We are honestly going on for what feels like 10 hours. So how about we wrap up Rapid Fire Style. Let's rattle off our top three.

[Leo]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Abu]

What are your three favorite stories from these nine?

[Leo]

Okay, number three for me. Omphalos. Omphalos. The what if building sci fi story of creationism, Science point story. Fucking awesome. I think about this story all the time. And that search for meaning I think is super beautiful.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Two, Exhalation.

[Abu]

Let's go.

[Leo]

I want to say I wanted to put this as number one, but spoiler, you put it as number one, so I didn't want to. I didn't want us to both have the same number one. So Exhalation. This story gives the book its name and for good reason. It's so cool. It's unbelievably cool. And it does a great job of balancing existential reactions that come from broad scope scientific discoveries. So exhalation number two. Number one. My number one story for this book. Truth of Fact, Truth of Feeling or whatever it's called.

[Abu]

Let's do it.

[Leo]

This story is so much more impactful on a second read through. I loved the investigation of cognition, the role of language, technology, how does technology affect how we think and perceive ourselves? And storytelling, the dual storytelling is all very cool. I love that story. And I also wanted to, because I don't know if, if we, you know, if our listeners love this, maybe we'll talk about more Ted Chiang in the future. But in case we don't, I also wanted to give an honorable shout out to a story that's not in this collection. Tower of Babylon is so fucking great. Ted, just broadly is on a different level with so many of his ideas and his executions. I'm so glad that we had a chance to talk about this book and I hope people enjoyed as well. So those are my rankings.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

Omphalos, number three. Exhalation, number two, Truth of Fact, Truth of Feeling. Number one. What about you? What are your three? Your top three?

[Abu]

Mine are very similar. Truth of Fact, Truth of Feeling falls at number three for me. Loved it. I already gushed about it earlier. Number two, the Merchant and the Alchemist Gate. I just love the setting. I love the like mythological Arabian nights fantasy nature of a story that's centered around time travel. I love its message. So good. Number two for me. Number one. Exhalation.

[Leo]

Yeah, easy.

[Abu]

My God, an easy pick. That's a fucking home run of a story. I loved it. So good. Obviously. Honorable mention to Omphalos, which at first I put on here and then I erased and then I, you know, I was really waffling on that back in and forth. But we stated this earlier. But to really emphasize this point, I truly think Ted Chang is like the goat. And even his mediocre writing, even his worst writing is like better than what other authors will spend a lifetime of writing trying to achieve. You know, it's wild.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

As you said, like Tower of Babylon, his other short stories, Ted is just operating on like a totally different, different fucking plane of existence than other contemporary sci fi authors. It's unreal how creative and how well crafted these stories are.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And what's absolutely, utterly shocking and honestly destroyed my self esteem is when I googled him, I learned that writing is just a fucking hobby.

[Leo]

Oh my God.

[Abu]

He has a full time job at Microsoft. He works like a regular dudes, nine to five, 40 hours a week, week at a tech company and just writes this shit on the side. Wild. Writing one of these stories would take me a lifetime of thinking. And Ted is just like doing this on the weekends, on a trip to the park or whatever. Wild stuff. To me as an excuse to rewatch Arrival, I was like, this is homework. I'm working. Leo, bill me for the hours. Yeah, I rewatched Arrival in preparation for this episode, which is based on a different Ted Chang story in his other short story collection. And honestly, much like Life Cycle of Software Instruments or whatever, I watched that movie 10 years ago. I liked it a lot, but it didn't stay with me. I watched it again like two weeks ago, Wept. Just. It destroyed me. It hit me on a whole other level. And it's. It's masters like Denis Villeneuve and Ted Chang combining forces. We are so blessed to get a movie like Arrival. If you haven't watched it, I highly recommend. Recommend. Ted is an icon. He's iconic, dare I say. And the short story collection is amazing. And I'm also very glad that we got to really gush about it. This was so fun.

[Leo]

Leo agreed. Yeah. And again, ultimately, like, when it comes down to the brass tacks, like, authors are exploring truth through their worlds. And I think like Frank, Ted very clearly has things he wants to communicate through his stories and does so masterfully. And I think when we're looking at the kind of common DNA between like Dune and all of the Dune books and Ted's stories, they're so neighbors. They are in the same aisle in Trader Joe's where they are, you know, we're reading Leto to Atreides and Daris Balat and his journals. All of that's fairly heavy handed. You know, Frank was basically a political speaker, but But I see a lot of the same stuff in Ted's stories. And I don't know Ted absolutely. But I feel like I know Ted and I, I think that's really, that's really cool.

[Abu]

So. And you know, once we sent him our voice message, I think we'll get to finally talk to him and tell him how much we love him.

[Leo]

Yeah. If any of our listeners have, like, if you're a stone's throw from Ted, tell him to tell him. Tell him. Tell them about us. We want to talk to him so badly.

[Abu]

So has he read Dune?

[Leo]

Does he like Dune? I'd be. If he doesn't like Dune, maybe not. Maybe not. Because that would be rough. But if he, if he likes Dune, let's talk. Let's talk to him.

[Abu]

So excited. Okay, let's wrap it up there. Wow. This is one of the longest episodes we've recorded in a while. Gosh, nearly as long as our Dune movie review episodes. Amazing. Okay.

[Leo]

Good lord.

[Abu]

A couple of quick reminders before we let you go. Dear listener, thank you so much for hanging out with us, especially the folks who have stuck around on the live stream. There are two great ways to support this show and help us continue to do what we do. One is to become a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar you get a bunch of goodies. You get ad free episodes, behind the scenes stuff, and early access to book clubs. The second best way is to check out our merch store. Gomjabarshop.com get yourself something cute to wear to the beach this summer. Gonjabarshop.com Dune themed merch. Check it out. Those links are in the show notes below.

[Leo]

Indeed. Also, we love to hear from you. So email us. Gomjamarpodcastmail.com Send us your questions, your comments, your concerns. Also, like, yeah, this is a bit of an experiment, right? We've talked about the science fiction miniseries. We talked about the 84 lynch movie. These are things that are Dune related, but not exactly Dune. This is less Dune related than almost anything else we've talked about. Even Asimov had.

[Abu]

Even Asimov. Much more Dune. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo]

Much more Dune related. So I would say, let us know. In particular, did you enjoy this? If not, why? If so, why? We want to know. Ultimately, we take your feedback very, very seriously. So if there's, if you have any feedback about today's episode, by all means, let us know. Gomjabarpodcastmail.com we read every email and we respond in one to two or three business years, so always happy to to get a word from you.

[Abu]

And to be clear, not every year is a business year. So don't, don't be counting that like 1, 2, 3, sometimes.

[Leo]

Last year was not a business year, for instance. Yeah, yeah, it's like leap years, but way less predictable. Yeah.

[Abu]

Foreign. There is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Laura Underscore Party. And of course we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls every parallel universe.

[Leo]

Oh my.

[Abu]

We'll see you on the golden Path.

[Leo]

A different outro.

[Abu]

A para outro, some might say. Oh gosh. Wow. What a marathon.