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- [00:00]
A
Today on the show, we are smashing our iPhones, everyone, our MacBooks, our Samsung Smart fridges, that, that fucking robot from the like expo that can't walk upstairs. The table, the table at Ikea that's also an air purifier, just to be safe.
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B
That's right.
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A
We are talking today about the Butlerian Jihad.
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B
Finally, at long last, about six years
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A
late, by my count. Ye.
- [00:41]
B
Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.
- [00:58]
A
My name is Leo.
- [00:59]
B
And Leo, I hope you are ready to unleash a holy war across this podcast.
- [01:05]
A
A holy war. That's right. In my father's name. Burning across the.
- [01:09]
B
Burning across the waveforms, leaving artifacts and distortion in our wake.
- [01:14]
A
Oh, no, that sounds terrible. Literally, that sounds terrible. A terrible listening experience.
- [01:20]
B
Literally. Folks, welcome to another episode of Gom Jabbar. As the title states, we are diving into the Butlerian Jihad today. Something that we are both realizing is long overdue. We've been making this podcast for six years. The Butlerian Jihad is one of the, arguably, maybe the most influential event in the history of the Dune universe. And we've never dedicated an entire episode to it until today.
- [01:48]
A
Absolutely crazy. Now, I do want to very quickly get into our housekeeping because if you are listening to this, maybe you're friend told you about their favorite Dune podcast and you're not sure if this is going to be safe for you. I want to get the spoiler warning out of the way. Yes, this episode is going to be very light on spoilers. Almost no spoilers. If you have read the first book or even if you've just seen the movies by Denis Villeneuve, you are safe to listen to today's episode. Yeah, I want to make sure you're comfortable continuing because, yeah, this is a hugely important thing in Dune, but it doesn't really have to do with the plot of the first book.
- [02:29]
B
That's right. It all takes place in the past. And we'll explain how long ago it was. Very shortly.
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A
Yeah.
- [02:34]
B
But before we get into it, we have to shout out our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons at the top of the episode here.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Daniel Dion, Seth Redding, Greer. Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohanrahman, Roger Young.
- [02:46]
A
Oh, folks, yeah.
- [02:49]
B
If I was leading a coup against the Richesian people.
- [02:52]
A
Oh, fuck them.
- [02:53]
B
Yeah, you bet your ass. I'D have the five of you on my team, no one else I'd rather trust.
- [02:59]
A
And you would quickly succeed, I suspect, based solely on that roster. My God. Day one, Day one victory.
- [03:06]
B
Yes, the coup would be bloodless and swift.
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A
What a great team. Dang.
- [03:11]
B
Truly. But of course, our thank yous and our gratitude extend to all of our fellow perpetrators of the coup d' etat at every level on our Patreon. So we thank you deeply from the bottom of our hearts. This coup and this podcast would not be successful without all of you.
- [03:30]
A
Indeed. And hey, listen, if you're not in a place right now to be a monthly supporter, don't forget we do have a one time tip link that is in the show notes as well. So another great way to support us and what we do here at Gom Jabbar. Okay, that's housekeeping. It's out of the way. Let's talk about what we're actually talking about today and the structure of today's episode.
- [03:53]
B
That's right. So today will actually be part one of a two part exploration into the history of jihads of holy wars. In the Dune universe, there are two very big jihads that completely reshape the universe twice. The first one we'll be focusing on today, the Butlerian Jihad. And then in the next episode in part two, we'll be diving into the Fremen Jihad, which without getting into spoilers, you perhaps know about if you have read the first book or have watched Denis Villeneuve's films.
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A
Right? Yeah.
- [04:31]
B
There are a lot of interesting parallels and themes that tie these ideas together. And clearly Frank Herbert was firing on all cylinders when he was building out his world and talking about these pivotal events.
- [04:44]
A
Now, today's episode does require a bit of a disclaimer regarding canonicity. Old Dune heads know this thoroughly at this point, but for newer listeners, a chunk of today's conversation involves things that Frank himself never directly wrote about.
- [05:02]
B
Right?
- [05:03]
A
Little bits and pieces here and there, comments, one off lines from characters. But we are going to be drawing a lot today from the Dune Encyclopedia, which is a book that was published in the 1980s. Now, as always, just as a reminder, we treat Frank's own words, Frank Herbert's words, as Tier one canon. They are definitive, they are authoritative. That is how the Dune universe is.
- [05:28]
B
Full stop, full stop.
- [05:30]
A
Next to that, we have the Dune Encyclopedia. 1980s came with his living blessing. Excellent, excellent resource if you're big into Dune like we are. And then we've got Tier three, which is everything Bronze, Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson have written, seeing as their lore so often conflicts with Frank's world. And we bring this up today in particular because anybody who's read any of Brian and Kevin's books will know they've written extensively about the Butlerian Jihad, but they've painted a very, very different picture. Like they have gone way in their own direction with those events and characters and things. So just to be clear, we are not going to be talking about Brian and Kevin books today. And of course, you can always check out our episode titled the Messy Canon of Dune for an in depth conversation around basically why we structure our canon tiers this way.
- [06:33]
B
That's right. There's a long, windy, complicated history behind the canonicity of the Dune universe. And it's all very messy. So if you're curious, go back in the feed and search for that episode for the in depth explainer.
- [06:46]
A
Indeed.
- [06:46]
B
Okay, folks, that's the game plan for today's episode. That's everything you need to know to enjoy today's conversation. Let's take a quick break. Yeah, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're unpacking maybe arguably the biggest event in the entire Dune universe. We'll see you in a minute.
- [07:10]
A
Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's do it. Let's get into one of the most formative events in the Dune universe. So starting off, it's worth acknowledging, by the time of young Timothy Chalamet, Paul Atreides, the Butlerian Jihad is ancient, ancient history, but it's imperial life. What it's like to actually live in the Empire is shaped by its ramifications. Day to day, moment to moment. You can't go a fucking rotation around your backwater planet without being hit by one of these ramifications. Right. The Butlerian Jihad is among the most consequential events in human history.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
You know, sliced bread, invention of fire, turning wheel, butler angie HUDs, like number four, number five, for sure. Yeah. Yep. And by itself can be somewhat blamed for Mentats, for Spacing Guild, navigators, and even spice melange. Right. Like the thing that is most important and most valuable in the Dune universe really only matters because of the Butlerian Jihad.
- [08:21]
B
Yeah. The modern political structure of the Imperium itself takes shape after the events of the Jihad and as a result of the events of the Jihad. And it's wild. This event truly changes the course of human history forever in this universe.
- [08:36]
A
Yeah, it really does. It's also what makes Dune feel like Dune. How many like dime a dozen sci fi novels are there where everyone's talking to holograms and computers and artificial intelligences and pew, pew. Laser, laser blade. And so little of that exists in Dune because of the Butlerian Jihad. And despite the fact that this monumental event is so impactful, is so important, the first book provides basically no details about it. It's like, yeah, this thing happened. Fucking guess about it, I guess. Speculate, have fun. We'll be here talking about plot, I guess. Here's the meager definition that we're given from the terminology of the Imperium, which is. This section at the end of the book gives you some additional details about the world. The crusade against computers, thinking machines and conscious robots begun in 201 BG and concluded in 108 BG. Its chief commandment remains in the OC Bible as Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind. End quote.
- [09:53]
B
Iconic Dune quote, iconic.
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A
That shit's another tattoo that I've seen so many times on Google when I'm searching Dune tattoos, I'm like, oh, yeah, there it is. And also really relevant today. Oh my God. With all the Clods and the Geminis and the. They're all trying to be like us. We're the cool people.
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B
That's true.
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A
They're just pretty sure.
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B
Maybe it's time we finally get that tattoo. We've been resisting it for so long.
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A
Yeah, right across from my Fear is the Mind Killer tattoo for sure.
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B
That's right.
- [10:25]
A
Now, the appendix at the end of the first book doesn't shed much more light than that. Has a mere two paragraphs of additional information here. That is quote. Then came the Butlerian jihad. Two generations of chaos, the God of machine logic, was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised. Man may not be replaced. Those two generations of violence were a thalamic pause for all humankind. Men looked at their gods and their rituals and saw that both were filled with that most terrible of all equations, fear over ambition. End quote. God damn, what a dense set of words. Yeah. The highest stakes. Every sentence in that was crazy. Crazy. But in order to have a fuller picture of this thing.
- [11:21]
B
Right?
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A
That's all Frank gave us. Well, that's why we get to now turn to the Dune Encyclopedia.
- [11:27]
B
That's right. And as always, the Dune Encyclopedia. Oh boy. It not only fills in the gaps of this universe, but it paints it, it expands it, it blows it up in amazing and fascinating ways. Because you read those paragraphs, those two little paragraphs from Frank Herbert at the end of the first book, and you go, what the fuck actually happened?
- [11:50]
A
Right, right, right.
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B
People, like, got events, like, events, people, names, atrocities. Like, it sounds like a terrible jihad that raged across the galaxy. But you're not giving me any details. Luckily, that's where the encyclopedia fits in and gives us so much more to chew on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So let's talk about what's in the encyclopedia now. And let's go to the very beginning, Turning the clock all the way back 10,000 years before the time of Paul Atreides. The Butlerian Jihad, according to the encyclopedia, spanned for around 92 years from 200 to 108 BG. This period historically has been given two names. The name that we've been calling it so far in the podcast, the Butlerian Jihad and also the Great Revolt. And the disagreement here between historians is basically whether this pivotal moment in human history should be attributed to a character named Jahan Butler, who we will talk about shortly, or whether this is just great movements across many planets and across many cultures that were not solely about this one person. It's basically, do we make this one person the figurehead and symbol for this jihad, or is it something bigger than her? And that's sort of a central tension within this whole crusade.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah. And we should come back and talk about this toward the end, because I think that this is a somewhat justified question to ask. Very interesting. Right. Like, do you describe the entire event by the spark that started it, or do you kind of adhere to a name that more acknowledges the widespread nature of this event. Right. And all of the contributing factors.
- [13:38]
B
Totally. And, you know, things have been renamed in real life history before. Right. The Great War became World War I after we started a second one. You know, like, extra historical context meant we had to rename the first thing.
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A
Oh, shit, we need to add numbers.
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B
Right? Oh, no. We got to start counting these damn world wars, folks.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:57]
B
So, you know, I think historically, within the Dune universe, there is great debate on what this moment should be called. I think for our purposes, we're mostly going to call this the Balerian Jihad. That's what it is most popularly known as, and how Frank references it in his six books.
- [14:14]
A
Yeah, agreed.
- [14:15]
B
Now, speaking of historical context, the Dune Encyclopedia is written as an in universe historical document. And there's a section in there where a historian speculates about the paradigm shifts that are necessary for a jihad of this scale to break out. And it's really interesting because the historian essentially asserts that it requires two ingredients. And if either one of these ingredients is Missing a jihad can't happen. It requires a great leader and it requires bottled up energy among the masses that are ready to explode. Outward people have to be ready for change, and they need a catalyst to spark that change. A popular readiness for change is aimless without capable leadership. But the great leader without ready support, ends in obscurity. However, when human genius combines with movement in the tides of the people, new directions result. Such a combination was the Butlerian Jihad. End quote.
- [15:24]
A
Man, that is Frank's bread and butter. The like. Not only talking about, yeah, the event, right, the, the overthrowing, the huge directional shift of tides, but also that kind of X factor of what actually enables it. What is the catalyst? What is the thing that makes that possible? Because without that, it's just, you know, it disperses like that. Energy potential is wasted.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah, and I think I agree with Frank here. I think if you look at the long arm of human history, most revolutions, most societal changes and upheavals don't just kind of happen in a mass blob of people, Right. It's usually focused and charged and directed by great leaders who have the potential to both be consequential and great, as well as dangerous and corrupt. And I think that is at the heart of Frank's warning here. Yeah, great change requires great energies among people and great leaders. And the combination of those two things colliding can result in wild changes in human history, for better and worse.
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A
Yeah, very well said. Again, one of his biggest warnings the whole time is charismatic leaders. And this is part of why, right? This is the. This is one of the whys behind his. His urgency in the warnings.
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B
That's right.
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A
So Jihan Butler. Right. Super important. Let's talk about her life a bit. And this is again, all taken from the Dune Encyclopedia. Jad Butler was born in 230 before the Spacing Guild. So this is about 10,000 years before Paul Atreides on planet Komos. Komos was a planet that was being kind of ruled by the class of technocratic folk on planet Riches. And Jahan Butler's early years were marked by two different types of training and preparation. One was as a priestess of Kubebe. She was just being trained to, I don't know, be a figure in this religious order. The other was as a Bene Gesserit. So akin to someone like Jessica, Right. Paul's mother. She was being given Bene Gesserit training.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And we don't know a lot about those early years necessarily, but with that, those two bits of data, we can Kind of picture. It's like a lot of, just a lot of preparation, a lot of being trained in these various skills that are important for Bene Gesserit to have. Fast forward to when Jahan Butler is 25 years old. She settled down with Thetor Butler. She married Thetter Butler who is we're told, quote, the logistos of Xania, one of the 10 administrative districts on Comos. End quote. So this is a sort of administrative head of office for a, an important district on planet Comos. And the same year they got married. Maybe this is a shotgun wedding. Maybe they got a little too hot and heavy under the covers because same year that honeymoon, that honeymoon. Woo. Same year they were expecting their first child. Oh, congratulations. However, you know, hold the champagne, hold the flowers because After Jahan was admitted to a hospital for the delivery of her child, things went quickly south from the dune encyclopedia when on the delivery table Jehan was anesthetized. When she awoke, she and her husband were informed that their daughter Sarah had been aborted. The hospital explained that the fetus had been too deformed to survive. End quote. So wow. Yeah, obviously this is like devastating stuff. Probably the worst thing that you could hear. But there was for Jahan an added layer of pain and tragedy. Because she was trained as a Bene Gesserit, she had this superhuman knowledge and awareness of her body and, and her unborn child. And she with this extra training was convinced that the diagnosis was impossible. Quote. In time Jahan came to believe that her child's death had at best been unnecessary. End quote.
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B
Wow.
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A
Which again just the worst thing you could discover as a mother and to believe it's really. It's awful.
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B
It's awful.
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A
Now this leads to Jahan's discovery that the director of the hospital, the person making these calls, was the first self programming machine on Comos. So this was like an AI autonomous robotic director of the hospital and uncovered evidence that this machine director, quote had instituted a program of unjustified abortions and quote, Jesus Christ. Crazy insane. This obviously changed everything, right?
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B
Imagine discovering that. Yeah, I would be pissed. And Jahan, rightfully so, also is absolutely livid.
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A
Yeah.
- [21:05]
B
And she in fact goes on the offensive. Her and Thetar using their connections, their administrative abilities. Jahan at this point being trained as a priestess and a Bene Gesserit has a natural gift of rhetoric and charisma. They quickly form a coalition. They call it the front for the end of coman exploitation. I have some notes on their branding but sure, we'll go with it. The front for the end of Coman exploitation.
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A
Yeah, the T shirts, they're lengthy and you know you're, you're still like 35ft away. You're like I can't fucking read. What the. The front for the end of. Is that Roman. Roman exploration. I thought the Romans were dead. Oh no, no Coleman, it's a K. Komen exploration.
- [21:56]
B
Your shirt was a bit wrinkly. It looked like, it looked like Roman. Yeah, look, who am I to give Jahan Butler notes because this revolution was by every metric of success. Yeah, but Brandon could have used a little, little bit of a polish.
- [22:12]
A
Well another thing here is that we will discover Johann is like great at everything. So honestly she probably made it work. People were like holy shit, that is catchy. That is the best name of anything we've ever heard.
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, probably. I mean Jahan is, she's a, an incredible, incredible character here. Branding aside, my personal quibbles with the branding aside, Jahan's revolution launched a full on coup against the Richesian people. Riches is the sort of governing planet of Comos and they are essentially Silicon Valley. They're this advanced tech based society and Jahan rebels against it. She lost a child because of this technology that made its way from Richees to this hospital in Comos and she wants nothing to do with that shit. And by all accounts this coup, this very complex coup was a success and it was a testament to, to the and Jahan's tactical brilliance. They seized a tribute fleet on a particular Richesian holiday and mapped out this intricate plan that worked to a T. The encyclopedia tells us that it was a nearly bloodless victory.
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A
Insane.
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B
They overthrew an entire planet without loss of innocent life which is absolutely incredible that so rarely happens in actual human history.
- [23:47]
A
Yeah, so dope. And also like reading that little summary of you know, they planned it right festival day. They know certain things aren't going to be guarded. People are taking the day off. I was like holy shit. This would be such a good like four or five episode little just tense. You don't know if it's going to work. And then they do, they fucking pull it off.
- [24:08]
B
The bloodless revolution like that heist mini arc within the first season of Andor where they have to get into the compound and stuff. I kind of imagined it like that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Being the leader of a group like that.
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A
So good. Oh that'd be so sick.
- [24:23]
B
It's very cool. Well, the coup is successful. The Richesians have been overthrown. Comos has thrown off the shackles of this technocratic society and all of their gadgets and gizmos. And this is where things get dicey. Because upon their arrival on Richees, what the Comans discover is disconcerting to say the least. Because what they realized is this hospital director wasn't some sort of anomaly on Richees, right? The whole society had turned over huge swaths of their civilization over to machines. For Comans, this was a new thing. The hospital director was like a new update to the system.
- [25:10]
A
Right.
- [25:10]
B
For Richesians, this is the norm. And the Dune Encyclopedia's description of this I found particularly eerie in 2026, quote, the degree to which machines controlled the population of Riches and had altered the emotional and intellectual characteristics of its inhabitants over centuries and was literally incredible to the Comans. Many of them never entirely believed what they saw there. End quote.
- [25:41]
A
Dude, that's so crazy. This was written in the fucking 80s, man.
- [25:50]
B
Science fiction is awesome.
- [25:52]
A
I love science fiction because yeah, when I talk to my friends who are like teachers today and they talk about like what the youngest generation can't do without certain unnamed web based AI LLM tools, you go, no, there's no way they're that incapable of doing X, Y and Z. And you go, no, no, no. Yeah, literally incapable. It's like, whoa, yeah, this is real like prescient shit. Yeah.
- [26:17]
B
I saw a tweet just yesterday where somebody was like, oh my God, how did people used to write book reports without ChatGPT? And someone responded to it and in all caps was like, bitch, everything humans have done up to this point was done without chatgpt. Write the fucking book report. And I was like, that's so true. All of human culture and history did not need chappie chatgpt fucking GPT up until this point. We're capable of doing all of those things. Yeah.
- [26:47]
A
We proved Earth was round using like sticks and string thousands of years ago. Like proved it with math. It's crazy. And now it's like, it's wild.
- [27:01]
B
It is wild. The more I read about the boat layering Jihad and this encyclopedia entry, the more it just eerily felt so relevant to today and so about today somehow.
- [27:15]
A
It is not necessarily the technology. No, right. Like the problem here is not that there is a director of a hospital or the problem isn't necessarily the tool that is technology.
- [27:29]
B
Right.
- [27:29]
A
It is the turning over everything to it.
- [27:32]
B
Yes. It's that the decision to abort Jahan's baby was handed off to the director without any oversight. Right, right. It was this blind acceptance of, well, this machine is great and can make this judgment call without human intervention.
- [27:47]
A
Right.
- [27:47]
B
That mindset is what is so disgusting to the Comans.
- [27:51]
A
Yeah. And also I got the impression that like the Comans didn't agree for that to be the power structure of this hospital on fucking Comos. Like, I think that the other issue is. Yeah, it's just a question of like consent and like, was she informed that this decision was going to be solely the decision of the director of the hospital would. That's weird. It's not like you're overseeing doctors. It's not. It's. It's bizarre.
- [28:19]
B
It's bizarre.
- [28:20]
A
But yeah, I think that there's this quote from later in the Dune series, and this is not a spoiler at all, but it's Frank's own words about the Butlerian Jihad. And in particular, I think this really summarizes it. Well, of course it does, because it's also fucking Frank Herbert talking about his own creation, the Butlerian she hunt. But yeah, this I think also hones in on why it's not about the technology. Hard stop. It's about the use of technology and the way that the technology is being kind of invited into the mind. Right, right. Quote. The target of the jihad was a machine attitude as much as the machines. Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed. End quote.
- [29:15]
B
Wow.
- [29:16]
A
The idea that our sense of beauty itself was being usurped by the technology, like, that's the crime. You know, when I see God, I'm on, on TikTok all of my algorithms like artists. And it is so stress, like stressful and annoying right now for artists because either they are very, very good and people are like, oh, you're good. And that's obviously AI slob. And they're like, no, no, no. I like no work for tens of thousands of hours to like be this good. They're like, yeah, it's AI slob. Like, don't use AI. And they're like, oh, fuck, man. Or their shit's actually getting stolen. It's just such a lose lose right now. Because people legitimately cannot tell at this point if something's AI or not. So it just our very ability to like see something beautiful, see a painting or an illustration or even a short film and to go, wow, that's so cool. And that sparks like a joy in me and a desire to create and I want to pick up a paintbrush. I have to be doubting that now because of. Was this Just someone doing a prompt, you know, Was this like. I don't know, it's such a weird time.
- [30:31]
B
Yeah.
- [30:32]
A
So I feel like this quote from Frank, but also the broader idea of the butler and jihad not being about the technology but being about how people utilize the technology is so resonant for me.
- [30:43]
B
Yeah. And that human discernment, you know, where that line is, is getting blurry in our real world. And clearly that line had been crossed on Rich. He's in a way that disgusted the Comans.
- [30:56]
A
Yeah.
- [30:57]
B
The Richesians for what sounds like over a century, had slowly just been handing everything off to their technology, you know. And that reduces human agency, that blurs the line between decision making, you know, like how much of it is my decision if I just do what the robot tells me is best? And I never critically think about it beyond that point. Right. I just turn my brain off after that point. How much of that is even my own decision anymore? That slowly, culturally, has been changing richeesed for a long time, for generations. And I think this is what kind of sparked what will become the Butlerian Jihad. Right. Because so far all we've really been talking about is one very charismatic and capable woman experiencing a deeply personal tragedy and wanting to change that, wanting to make sure that that tragedy doesn't happen to her or her fellow comans ever again. And so she led a coup against the Ruchessians. The coup was successful and it could have stopped there.
- [32:00]
A
Right.
- [32:01]
B
That could be it.
- [32:01]
A
Right.
- [32:02]
B
But when the Comans saw how technology had changed the humanity and civilization of the Ruchessians, their target brought it. It was no longer just about riches. It was no longer about this one hospital director. The Jihad's focus began to shift to the entire imperium. To every society within this universe. And this is where things get real interesting. Because Jihad's goal was not necessarily that.
- [32:31]
A
Right.
- [32:32]
B
What really sparked the flame and caused the bloodshed that the butler in Jihad will be infamous for, that was a decision made by the priestesses of Kabeb who fanned those flames to a dangerous degree.
- [32:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. So important to note that. Right. Like every. Yeah, you're. You're totally right. We are not even talking about the Butlerian Jihad yet. This is the like angry mob who's like, stormed into a Best Buy where they're like, I heard you. And then they find out it's a chain store and they're like, oh shit, this is a bigger problem.
- [33:04]
B
This is bigger. Yes.
- [33:05]
A
There's more than one Best Buy. Oh, fuck. You know, so yeah. It gets bigger from here. Now, before we talk about it getting bigger, we're going to take another quick break. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back right after this.
- [33:23]
B
Welcome back, folks. Let's talk about these priestesses, arguably the real spark for the Butlerian Jihad. This is fascinating stuff. Yeah. The priestesses of Kabeb, who had allied with Jahan to overthrow riches, were a part of this successful coup. And they themselves were then quickly radicalized by what they learned from interrogations held on riches of the programmers and designers behind these Richesian machines. Like that hospital director.
- [33:57]
A
Right.
- [33:58]
B
It turns out that many of these programmers and developers willingly participated in and masterminded the handover of Richesian society to machine control and machine thinking. This wasn't a thing that just, like, happened to them. There was no Terminator style. The machines turned against us.
- [34:16]
A
Right.
- [34:17]
B
They willingly handed over their autonomy and agency to the machines. They wanted this to happen.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah.
- [34:24]
B
And that disgusted the priestesses. The inflection point of all of this was one particular interrogation of a Dr. G. Demlin by the chief priestess Urania. As the story goes, according to the encyclopedia, by all accounts, Demlin was an arrogant prick.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah, he sounds like he sucks, dude. Like the worst tech bro I've ever heard of. This guy sucks.
- [34:50]
B
Truly?
- [34:50]
A
Yeah, truly.
- [34:52]
B
Imagine the worst tech bro you've ever heard of. And then amplify that by 10x, that is Dr. Demlin. And Urania has the displeasure of having to interrogate this fucking asshole.
- [35:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:03]
B
And the interrogation goes badly, as you'd suspect. Demlin spends most of his questioning just kind of droning on about how brilliant he is and how wonderful the machines that he creates are and how necessary the machines are. Ugh. Arania, during this entire interview, can barely hold her composure. She is repulsed by this fucking man and everything that he believes. Girl sane, and she simply can't hide it. It's all over her face.
- [35:27]
A
Yeah, like, first date. Yeah. Tell me more about your fucking golf swing guy. So cool. Oh, my God. You trade ETFs. Exactly.
- [35:36]
B
Exactly.
- [35:37]
A
Hasn't asked me a question all night. Buy me another martini. This sucks.
- [35:43]
B
This sucks. Yeah. Anyone who's been on a date with a Silicon Valley tech bro has probably experienced a little bit of what Yarani is sitting through. Now things get worse because, you know, she. She's repulsed by him. She can barely contain it. It's all over her face. And Demlin, fucking snowflake Demlin gets triggered. His toxic masculinity boils over and he explodes at Urania he starts talking shit about her goddess and her religion and the priestesses, and he starts making these bold claims that the machines that he builds are more worthy of praise than a supposed goddess invented by a clutch of bucolic bumpkins on a pigsty of a planet. End quote.
- [36:27]
A
Okay, wait, I hate this guy. But that was a bar. Like, that was such a valid bar. Invented by a clutch of bucolic bumpkins on a pig side of a planet. Slaps oh, my God. Incredible.
- [36:44]
B
The alliteration alone.
- [36:46]
A
My God. Yeah, we hate him. We hate him, but we hate him.
- [36:50]
B
He, him, him, him.
- [36:52]
A
But also do what is like let him spit. That's crazy. Yeah, let him spit.
- [36:57]
B
My God. Yeah. I mean, absolute fire, right? You know, he's talking shit, but he's also spitting fire. In his rage, though, he at one point turns to an icon of the goddess Q baby and prepares to spit, which is like, disgusting. It's like, come on, don't spit.
- [37:15]
A
You're a grandma.
- [37:17]
B
He's about to spit on this icon, but Urania is too quick. She kills him with her ceremonial knife in an instant. Yeah, Deserves that.
- [37:27]
A
Deserves.
- [37:27]
B
Interview over.
- [37:28]
A
Yeah.
- [37:29]
B
And this interrogation is the straw that breaks the camel's back. The priestesses call an urgent meeting of the council that very same night. And this is where I would say the Butlerian jihad as we know it today is actually born. Because it's after this council meeting that the priestesses quickly begin preaching to the faithful comans against, quote, the thinking machines and all who find their gods within them, end quote. I think that second half of that quote is the really important part.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah. Now it's not just about the technology. It's also about the humans who worship the technology.
- [38:10]
B
Yes.
- [38:11]
A
Dude, Imagine being such an insufferable tech bro, that you cause effectively a genocide. People are like, we're going to hunt down everyone in a north face jacket today because of you piece of crazy. That's wild.
- [38:27]
B
Truly, Truly. Demlin, my guy. Yeah. So insufferable that the priestesses just had to do something.
- [38:34]
A
They're like, anyone drinking a hard kombucha track them down. Right now
- [38:41]
B
the inquisition has begun against kombucha and north face, I guess. And this is it, you know. Now the jihad, the bloody part of the jihad begins. What started as a relatively contained act of overthrowing tech overlords has now become a crusade against not only the technology itself, but anyone who champions or even simply uses that technology. Everyone is now suspect in the eyes of the priestesses and the comans who follow them.
- [39:17]
A
Yeah. And you know what? This is where Jihan really starts. I think if you read this article only knowing what you know from Frank's books, you might expect it to go a certain way. I think this is where Jahan really sets herself apart from the bloodshed and from what's about to follow as being an all around upstanding person.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah.
- [39:39]
A
With like a really, like a rock solid moral compass.
- [39:43]
B
Agreed.
- [39:44]
A
Because Jahan sees how badly shit could get. Right. She's hearing them saying every north face jacket, every harb, kombucha, everyone wearing fucking. She's hearing them list these qualifiers and she's going, whoa, whoa, whoa, what the fuck? Like, I'm upset because my child was killed by a hospital director. I'm not suggesting killing, you know, billions of people. That's crazy.
- [40:13]
B
Yeah.
- [40:14]
A
Like, there are people out there who might just be chill with their iPhone. We don't need to kill them all. Like, that's wild. So she actually found herself in the position of arguing against the priestesses, urging a sense of restraint in compassion. And frankly, although the priestesses heard her, you know, she's going, hey, bloodshed, you know, you're talking about killing a lot of people. They were like, yeah, maybe killing a lot of people is necessary. Right. Like, the priestesses are the ones going, right, right. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet gm. Like, what are you trying to do? We're trying to save humanity from what we perceive as this existential threat. What are you trying to do? And Jihan is like, it's just not that simple. So she becomes this, like, reluctant figurehead for the Jihad. And even as this holy war against technology and against people who worship technology or basically refuse to bend the knee and like, turn over all their shit to the priestesses, she basically ends up for 20 years balancing her position as the leader of the Butlerian Jihad, but also urging mercy and restraint. Where basically the head priestess, Urania, is seeking, like, straight up violence, eradication, genocide at times. Right?
- [41:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think this, like, tension within the leadership of the Jihad exists according to the encyclopedia, for its first 20 years.
- [41:53]
A
Yeah.
- [41:53]
B
As this violence is beginning to spread beyond just kommos and richees, there is a leadership struggle. Jahan is trying to hold the reins as tightly as she can and keep this thing contained. And Yurani is like, let's get out there, let's do it. We gotta stop this. Yeah, I found that interesting because I'm sure that resulted in some very tense zoom calls for the leadership.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. Jihan I see that you have your hand raised. We're gonna get to you, okay? Yurani, I see that you have your hand raised. Okay, listen, ladies, we haven't even gotten through the first slide. We gotta get this meeting going. Oh, Lord. Yeah, that's. What an idea. Yeah, you're absolutely right. The tension in this. In the leadership is palpable. But nevertheless, like. Jihan was successful in urging restraint. And early victories of the Butlerian forces were often achieved with basically no loss of life or, like, extraordinarily low loss of life. Right.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah.
- [42:56]
A
Here's the quote from the Dune encyclopedia. And again, this is just. She's obviously amazing. I mean, Jahan Butler's so sick. Quote from her first battle to her last. The actions Jahan participated in bear an unmistakable imprint. These are battles planned and led by. By a tactical genius whose concern for the lives of her soldiers and of her enemies is the dominant element. And in spite of the fact that Thetor survived his wife after the disaster off Carthagus, this stamp disappears from the campaigns of the Jihad. Ooh. End quote.
- [43:39]
B
Wow, that last sentence. Ominous.
- [43:41]
A
Yeah.
- [43:41]
B
Shackles come off.
- [43:43]
A
Yeah, we'll see how bad it gets in a second. But good Lord, the fact that just historians are looking back and going, look at these tactical victories. The person leading them was a genius who clearly cared about not only the lives of her people, but the lives of everyone involved in the conflict, both sides, and how that made a difference. That's just so fucking cool. Like, that's so rad. I. Yeah, I love it.
- [44:10]
B
Yeah. I think the encyclopedia details this really interesting trait of Jahan's where she would often deploy soft power instead of just saying, here are the overwhelming forces of my jihad and we're going to come in and stomp you into submission and destroy all your machines.
- [44:29]
A
Right.
- [44:31]
B
She would tactically deploy pressure in certain areas to essentially force people's hand without bloodshed. You know, it was still a victory. And ultimately, the Jihad still had its aims to achieve. But when possible, Jahan would attempt to achieve them without the need of force. And she would often forego hard power. Here's our guns and our weapons and our ships at your doorstep in favor of soft power. Here's some economic pressure we're going to apply. We're going to cut off this trading route so that you're forced to come to us and talk at the negotiating table and meet our demands. And that's something ultimately I'm walking away respecting in Jahan's outlook.
- [45:19]
A
Yeah.
- [45:19]
B
Minimizing that loss of life I think we saw it in the coup itself against Richees. And it's something she clearly carried on for 20 years in her role as sort of the figurehead and leader of the Jihad once it began to explode across the Imperium. Much respect.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah. Huge amount of respect for Jahan for sure.
- [45:38]
B
Now, alas, as that quote hints at, Jihan did perish.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah.
- [45:44]
B
20 years into the outbreak of the Jihad, Jahan died in 182Bg when her ship encountered an errant mind while they were attempting to force planet Carthagos to surrender. And what's like immediately tragic and makes me sad is that the grief stricken mob, the jihadists essentially just wiped out the entire population of Carthagos.
- [46:09]
A
Yeah, dude.
- [46:10]
B
It was genocide on a planetary scale once their leader was killed on this mission. And this is obviously something that Jihan herself would have denounced.
- [46:21]
A
Yeah, dude, talk about not fucking getting it. You're like, right?
- [46:26]
B
It's like, what the fuck?
- [46:28]
A
Yeah.
- [46:29]
B
Oh, she wouldn't have wanted this. And you did the very thing she spent 20 years trying to warn you against. And that's sort of the tragedy of the, of the Jihad, of the Bellerian Jihad. The age of Jahan's restraint and compassion are officially over in 182Bg with her death and this atrocity on planet Carthagos.
- [46:50]
A
Yeah.
- [46:51]
B
And before we move on from Jihan and talk about the rest of the Jihad in the aftermath, I wanted to read a quote to, from the encyclopedia entry about Jahan Butler, because I think it really exemplifies how incredible. I know we've been really gassing her up this whole episode.
- [47:07]
A
Sure. But she deserves it, really.
- [47:09]
B
It's like hard to. It's hard to paint the picture of Jahan Butler's brilliance. I think this passage from the encyclopedia does a pretty good job though. Quote. Many compared meeting her for the first time to the sensation of being struck. The emotions produced in others were not those associated with fear. However, the words most often used to describe her presence asserted a combination of compassion and intelligence so great as to produce what one observer, in a phrase later known to billions, saw as a living flame of a woman. But this was not fire as the Devourer. It was flame as the beacon. This flame led the crusade for 20 years. When it died, the Jihad became the flame itself. And this would be the fire of destruction. End quote.
- [48:07]
A
Oh, let us be first of all, beautiful writing. I know. What the fuck Killing it like, I love that. I love that so much. I don't know I've ever met Anyone who. Meeting them was like being struck, but I guess complimentary. I mean, this isn't going in a. Complimentary. Yeah, yeah. Jahn Butler. Oh, no. Oh, geez. Yeah. Meeting her was like being fucking slapped in the face, dog. It was terrible. Yeah. That's. Wow. Incredible. I mean, again, this sounds like the way people talk about, like, I was raised Tibetan Buddhist, and when people talk about meeting the Dalai Lama or meeting llamas, like. Right. Meeting enlightened individuals, people talk about the feeling in the room is when you're around an enlightened person, especially within this community, it's like, oh, yeah, you. You feel that they are different.
- [48:59]
B
Yes.
- [48:59]
A
So we're hearing some of that same kind of religious awe around Jahan Butler as a religious figure. This sort of like patron saint, this. Right. Yeah, She's. She's. That's so interesting. Wow.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah. So rest in peace, Johann Butler. You were clearly a legendary one.
- [49:16]
A
Yeah.
- [49:16]
B
Or at least the historical context 10,000 years later of how we remember you. You were a legendary one.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah, very true. Well, this carries us into the years following her death. And these are, frankly terrible. We talked about the Butlerian jihad. It's 90 years or so, first 20. Jahan was in kind of at the helm, doing her best to kind of mitigate bloodshed. Well, after her death, shit goes sideways in a lot of different ways. The Dune Encyclopedia does not name Urania at this point as being the one, like kind of really everything up. But I'll point the finger. I feel like she's probably in charge a little bit. You see how many times she raised her hand in that zoom meeting. She was biting at the bit.
- [50:10]
B
Too many times.
- [50:11]
A
Too many times, your Honia. We get it. You got shit to say. We get it. It's fine. Without a unified voice or directive, the period following Chahan's death is a chaotic one, with destruction of computers and machines as sort of the only prime directive. But again, we have these splintering factions of Butlerian jihadists who are also targeting the people, using the technology or defending the technology. Right. The jihad had lost its leader, who again, urged restraint every step of the way, and in doing so, had basically gained a martyr, but someone who couldn't actively advocate for peace and compassion. Right. So the sort of religious fanaticism that we're talking about, people talking about Jahanna as if she is this patron saint or this religious figure, it's mixing with the greed and the violence, the adrenaline, the movement, the power of a mob, it is all mixing together into this super deadly cocktail that's just leaving the Imperium in tatters. And there's another quote from the Dune Encyclopedia that does a really great job of kind of explaining this chaotic following, you know, 70 or so years after her death. Right, right. Quote the Butlerian Jihad was not a monolithic campaign that swept irresistibly through the human galaxy. On the contrary, it was the composite of thousands upon thousands of separate forces lasting almost a century. To conceive of the Jihad, one should not think of the Imperial army or Paul's Fremen, but rather of pirate fleets moving when and where their commanders will with little in common but the name of Jehan Butler and a hatred for the machines they could neither understand nor replace. End quote.
- [52:17]
B
Wow. Wow, what a venomous take from the historians in the Dune Encyclopedia about these pirates, these greedy pirates who co opted the Jihad for their own power and ambition.
- [52:32]
A
Yeah, I mean it's setting humanity back. And I think that it is that historian's perspective where you go, yeah, but was all of it necessary? Like we get why yeah, of course, we get the hospital director, we get Richeese, we get. But the reality of like the years following Jihan's death, it's clear you're right, there's venom there, there's like we. A real sense of judgment they couldn't understand or replace the shit they were breaking. So what does that leave but devastation and an imperium that then takes, you know, it's like we really got kicked back into the Stone Age in a lot of ways.
- [53:14]
B
Yeah.
- [53:14]
A
And was that necessary? Not really. And we kind of see humanity kind of crawl back toward that same alluring, you know, machine attitude just with other fucking things. So it's also, I think with the historians perspective, you're looking back going now those fucking idiots, just those greedy, violent, you know, enthusiastic pirates. Yeah, Very, very powerful writing here with like so much imbued in each word. Yeah, it's very cool.
- [53:47]
B
Yeah, it's horrible stuff. I mean this is a dark time in humanity's history and it is a hole that humanity digs for itself that we will spend thousands of years digging ourselves out of. You know, this is what will give birth. Like we said at the top of the episode, this is what will give birth to necessary things like oh, I don't know, the Spice Mirage, the Space Guild to get around the, the Karino throne, the Landsraad, the powers, the modern power structure of the Imperium. All of those things are a result of the chaos that is unleashed here after Jahan's Death and the opportunism that is on display by these pirate and mercenary factions. It's a dark time, but it does come to an end. You know, eventually there are fewer machines to destroy, there are fewer machine users to hunt and fewer planets to plunder. And the original fervor of the Jihad begins to fade. That raging flame that once existed has now just become a couple of embers as time has passed, as the decades have gone on, and as people have tired of the bloodshed. And so with dwindling targets and their lust for aggression and hate at an all time low, the tide of the jihad also dwindled, essentially leaving in its wake an imperium and a humanity in tatters. And this is where people turn inward to solve the problems that the computers either once handled or problems that the worship of those computers created. This is where we get the school of Mentats. This is where the Bene Gesserit really rise to prominence. We get souk doctors, truthsayers, space and Guild navigators, all of these human solutions to things that computers once did before the outbreak of this bloody crusade. And I think what's sort of interesting is this dichotomy that we end up at. I think the final line of the Dune Encyclopedia sums it up really beautifully for us. And it, it leaves us with a lingering question quote. To weigh the gains against the losses, the newfound talents and resources against the suffering that preceded them demands a scale that has not yet been invented. End quote.
- [56:14]
A
Dude, that. I fucking love that line. I'm so glad you pulled it.
- [56:17]
B
Fucking bars.
- [56:18]
A
Bars. Oh, damn. Yeah, to even begin to calculate out, you would need to invent just a calculator that doesn't exist. That's so good. I also. So actually at this point I do want to return to this question of nomenclature because I think when we first bring up the idea of do we call it the Butlerian Jihad or do we call it the Great Revolt? I initially saw that as like, how much credit do we give Jihan Butler?
- [56:51]
B
Yeah.
- [56:52]
A
Which I think depending on how you phrase that could sound diminishing. Like how big of a deal was she? Right.
- [56:58]
B
Yep.
- [56:59]
A
And I think it's clear that she was a huge deal. But I think another more sympathetic way to approach that shift in nomenclature is how much of what people remember about the Butlerian Jihad, the savagery, the brutality, the loss of life, the fucking tatters of the Imperium afterwards. How much of that should be given? Jihan Butler's name is like a different angle on the same question, Right?
- [57:28]
B
Yeah.
- [57:28]
A
And one that I think is actually interesting. You know, again, to the historians point, I don't think the Butlerian Jihad could have happened without your hand. Butler.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah.
- [57:38]
A
And it's got a great ring to it, makes a great T shirt. The merch, top tier.
- [57:42]
B
Good branding.
- [57:43]
A
Good branding. It's good branding. But it so clearly became something she didn't want it to be. It so clearly got out of immediately. Like she died the next business day. Shit was already out of control from what she would have wanted. Yeah. So how much do we put the hundred years under her name and everything that comes with it? I don't know. It's interesting. I don't know where I fall in that. Do you have a. Do you have a strong feeling, a strong impulse besides the draw of branding?
- [58:15]
B
Yeah, I, you know me, I always appreciate some good branding but I, gosh, you know, I'm a little wishy washy on this one too, which is a bit uncharacteristic of me. I feel like I always come in with a very strong belief that I refuse to budge on. But this time, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's fair to say the jihad was entirely the doing of Jahan Butler. And I think given what we've learned today about the priestess's involvement, about the Richesian's culpability and how the Comans were involved in spreading this belief, I think the blame for what happens, particularly in those last decades of the jihad after Jahan's death, have practically nothing to do with her. She is nothing more than a martyr on people's lips as they murder and pillage their way across the galaxy. Right?
- [59:09]
A
Yeah.
- [59:09]
B
Nothing more than an excuse to do that. At the same time, I think her actions had to have inevitably left a mark on the jihadists and that shouldn't be discounted. So I think if I had to, you know, like lays gun to my head, if I had to pick between the Great Revolt and the Butlerian Jihad, I would stick with the Butlerian Jihad because I think Great Revolt diminishes the lasting legacy of Jahan Butler for better and for worse. So yeah, I guess it's 60, 40 for me. 60 toward. But Larry and Jihad over Great Revolt.
- [59:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, that, that feels right. I mean it's, it's also just the branding is so strong.
- [59:57]
B
It's so good.
- [59:57]
A
It's so good. And you already have all the URLs and the social media accounts and everything. It's like you can't go back at this point.
- [60:03]
B
You're telling me you don't want Valeria Jihad on a, on a cap that you wear around the city?
- [60:08]
A
I want three of those.
- [60:09]
B
We all want.
- [60:10]
A
That's great. Yeah. Well, that does carry us, dear listener, to the end of today's conversation. We are going to continue, though, talking about the jihads of Dune, which includes the actions of a certain pasty, beautiful boy named Timothee Chalamet, AKA Paul Muadib Atreides.
- [60:34]
B
Yes.
- [60:34]
A
That starts right at the end of the second Denis Villeneuve film, at the end of the first book by Frank Herbert, and takes place somewhat between Dune and Dune Messiah, the second book. So we're going to talk about that then kind of what is this second reshaping of the Imperium? That's also, I think, where we're going to really be able to have more kind of spoiler heavy, deep analytical conversations about comparing these leaders of these movements. Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of the kind of thematic juiciness is going to be so very excited for part two.
- [61:15]
B
Yes.
- [61:15]
A
Keep an eye on the timeline for that. If you haven't yet read Dude Messiah, go ahead, read it. It's such a good book. And then you'll be prepared for that conversation. And also the movie coming out later this year.
- [61:28]
B
That's right, folks. That's right. All right, before we wrap it up and let you go, a couple of quick reminders, as always. First, the two best ways to support us is one, to become a patron@patreon.com Calm Jabbar. You get ad free episodes, you get early access to book clubs and future episodes, and you get to participate in our amazing nerdy little community on Discord, where folks are always popping off. There's some hotly debated discussions about Dune Part 2 happening right now in the discord that I'm trying to ignore, not get involved in. So if any of that intrigues you, consider becoming a monthly supporter. The second best way to keep this show going is to check out our merch store, Gomjabbar Shop, where you too can grab some excellently branded T shirts. Comos merch coming soon, I suppose.
- [62:25]
A
Why not?
- [62:25]
B
You know, both of those links and other useful links are in the show notes below. So please check those out and help us keep the lights on. We greatly appreciate it.
- [62:33]
A
Yeah, maybe don't hold your breath for the front of for the end of coman exploitation merch. That's very niche, although that's tough. Good Lord. The more I think about it, the more I kind of Love that. So. Oh, Jesus.
- [62:48]
B
It's kind of fun.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah. Well, should I fucking do that? Let me know. Email us gomjabbarpodcastmail.com that's our email address. We love to hear from you. We are criminally behind in responding to emails, but we do love hearing from people. We read them all, we respond within calendar years. So send us an email gomjabbarpodcastmail.com and of course, as always, in addition to your questions, your comments, your feedback, your concerns, your hopes, your dreams, if you have cute pets, we demand a pet tax. Send a picture of your cute old pet. We love to see them. Great.
- [63:25]
B
That's right, folks.
- [63:25]
A
Maybe I'll make a like a dog bandana merch item. That is okay, the front for the end of common exploitation. Super hard to read at a distance, but man, once people read it, they're like, oh, I get what you are about.
- [63:45]
B
That's right. I believe what you believe, brother.
- [63:47]
A
Hell yeah, brother.
- [63:48]
B
Got to end that. We gotta. We gotta end that exploration of the Romans exploitation of comans. Maybe we'll come up with a cool acronym for it, you know?
- [64:00]
A
Yeah, maybe. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.