Live Q&A: Dune Prophecy Episode 2

Summary

Gom Jabbar Podcast: Live Q&A Summary – Dune Prophecy Episode 2

Release Date: November 30, 2024

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Introduction

In the live Q&A episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast, hosts Abu and Leo engage with listeners to delve deep into Dune Prophecy Episode 2. The episode serves as a bonus live session, allowing fans to interact and pose questions about the evolving Dune universe portrayed in HBO’s television adaptation.

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Reaction to Episode 2

Abu and Leo kick off the session by sharing their contrasting impressions of Dune Prophecy Episode 2.

• Abu’s Perspective: Abu expressed mixed feelings, highlighting the episode’s storytelling and structural shortcomings. However, he lauded specific moments, notably the depiction of agony, which he described as “the best agony scene on screen” ([01:44]).

  “If the rest of this show is awful, we will still have walked away with the best agony scene on screen we've ever gotten. Right. And that's something to celebrate.” — Abu [01:44]

• Leo’s Perspective: In contrast, Leo found more enjoyment in the episode, particularly praising Travis Flamel’s performance and the overall fun elements despite some areas needing improvement.

  “I really enjoyed the episode. I was having fun the whole time and there were elements that I think could have been better, but overall, yeah, I had a blast.” — Leo [02:36]

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Spacing Guild and House Venport

A significant portion of the discussion centered around the Spacing Guild’s position in the current timeline and its monopoly over space travel.

• Listener Question (Thomas Leif): Thomas inquired about whether the Spacing Guild already held a monopoly on space travel post-Butlerian Jihad and their current standing.

  “I did say live, which means you too can participate... If you're hearing this after the fact, there's already people in the chat I'm seeing popping off in there, which is so exciting.” — Abu [00:27]

• Hosts’ Clarifications: Abu clarified that House Venport, led by Joseph Venport, is in the process of establishing the Spacing Guild’s dominance, akin to modern airlines consolidating power.

  “Joseph Vanport is like, I don't know, what's the best airline, folks? Delta, Emirates, whatever... He's gobbling them up. He's crushing them under his heel.” — Abu [05:29]

  Leo added that the Spacing Guild’s control is still in its formative stages, emphasizing the growing monopoly through Venport’s aggressive expansion.

  “So they do exist. They're around. Maybe Aurelius Ventoort himself is around somewhere, but we have yet to see them in the show.” — Abu [07:24]

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Timeline and Holtzman Technologies

Amber raised concerns about the timeline following the Butlerian Jihad, questioning the existence and reliability of Holtzman technology.

• Host Insights: Abu referenced the Dune Encyclopedia, explaining that Holtzman engines predate the Jihad, with their technology still present and functional.

  “So shielding. That's why we see things.... the Butlerian Jihad.” — Leo [07:24]

  The hosts acknowledged discrepancies between the show and canonical lore but assured listeners that the foundational technology remains intact.

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Desmond Hart and the Kwisatz Haderach Theory

A recurring topic was the character Desmond Hart and his potential role as a proto-Kwisatz Haderach.

• Listener Theories: Zaptages proposed that Desmond might embody aspects of the Kwisatz Haderach, capable of manipulating space-time.

  “Do you believe Desmond might be a proto Kwisatz Haderach?” — Zaptages [16:17]

• Hosts’ Analysis: Abu and Leo discussed the implications of Desmond’s abilities, pondering whether he represents the early stages of the Bene Gesserit’s breeding program aimed at producing the Kwisatz Haderach.

  “What if we have our own Desmond Hart who's got all those powers but believes what we believe in.” — Leo [15:16]

  They speculated that Desmond’s role could signify the beginning of a significant shift in the Dune universe’s power dynamics.

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Bene Gesserit and Patriarchy in the Empire

A critical question from Hillary addressed whether the Imperium is patriarchal and how the Bene Gesserit navigate power within such a structure.

• Discussion Points: Abu argued that the society depicted is inherently patriarchal, citing Yanez’s ascension and the sidelining of female characters like Pruitt Richesi’s sister.

  “It is very much like our real world... It's very much like a male first universe.” — Abu [30:14]

  Leo countered by exploring potential flexibility within the system, though ultimately conceding that cultural norms favor male dominance.

  “I don't see anything in the convention or any, like, official agreed upon rules that, no, you cannot be in power if you're a woman.” — Leo [29:22]

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Visuals of Dune Prophecy

Listeners, including Hussie, inquired about the series’ visual fidelity compared to Denis Villeneuve’s acclaimed films.

• Hosts’ Praise: Both Abu and Leo lauded the show’s visuals, emphasizing the rich, lived-in world and the effective use of sets and costumes despite budget constraints.

  “The sets are gorgeous. I think the costumes have been wonderful and they are getting as close as you can on a table TV budget, which is not going to be a film budget. As close as you can to Denis Villeneuve. I think they're doing a spectacular job.” — Abu [34:37]

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Bene Gesserit Classifications and Training

Hillary’s inquiry delved into the different classifications within the Bene Gesserit and whether roles like Reverend Mother inherently include being truthsayers.

• Hosts’ Explanation: Abu and Leo discussed the hierarchical structure of the Bene Gesserit, noting that while entry-level positions like acolytes undergo broad training, specializations such as truthsaying or mentoring are developed over time.

  “Truth saying is one of the things in which is, like, part of the sales pitch... Sisterhood, you know, it's routine.” — Abu [61:20]

  They acknowledged complexities within the lore, particularly how Dune Prophecy may diverge from canonical representations, especially regarding Other Memory.

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Other Memory and Lore Inconsistencies

Jeremy D. Voss raised concerns about the portrayal of Other Memory in Dune Prophecy, questioning its alignment with established lore.

• Hosts’ Take: Abu and Leo conceded that the show takes creative liberties, potentially breaking traditional rules of Other Memory. They recognized the confusion it introduces and highlighted the need for an upcoming episode to explore this topic in depth.

  “Dune prophecy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lore's broken. Has been for a while.” — Abu [46:42]

  They reflected on Frank Herbert’s more flexible approach to world-building compared to Brian Herbert’s detailed extensions, suggesting that the latter may introduce more rigidity and complications.

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House Atreides and Political Structures

Discussion emerged about House Atreides' current state within the nascent Imperium.

• Analysis: Abu and Leo clarified that House Atreides remains a respected faction but is not yet the formidable force seen in Paul Atreides’ era. They explained the early-stage political landscape, where great Houses are still establishing their dominance within the newly formed empire.

  “We're still seeing like the seeds of those later versions.” — Abu [64:25]

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Final Rapid-Fire Questions

The hosts addressed a variety of quick questions, including the presence of Sardaukar, the role of the OC Bible, and the origins of the Missionary Protectiva.

• Sardaukar Presence: Both agreed that traditional Sardaukar, known for their harsh prison origins, are unlikely to appear in the current timeline due to the luxurious portrayal of contemporary settings.

  “I’m starting to think we're not going to get any mention of Sardaukar in this series.” — Leo [54:09]

• OC Bible and Missionary Protectiva: They speculated that certain religious texts and movements might subtly influence future narratives, laying the groundwork for organizations like the Missionary Protectiva.

  “Maybe the seed of an idea that becomes the Missionary Protectiva.” — Leo [56:38]

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Conclusion

As the live Q&A wraps up, Abu and Leo express gratitude to their listeners, promote their Patreon and merchandise, and remind fans of upcoming episodes and live sessions.

“Happy Thanksgiving, y'all. For the folks that are celebrating. Hope you enjoy. Hope you have a lovely, restful holiday and spend some great time with people that you love.” — Abu [76:59]

The hosts sign off with a blend of humor and Dune-themed references, leaving listeners eagerly anticipating the next live session and deep dive into Episode 3.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. “If the rest of this show is awful, we will still have walked away with the best agony scene on screen we've ever gotten. Right. And that's something to celebrate.” — Abu [01:44]

2. “I really enjoyed the episode. I was having fun the whole time and there were elements that I think could have been better, but overall, yeah, I had a blast.” — Leo [02:36]

3. “Joseph Vanport is like, I don't know, what's the best airline, folks? Delta, Emirates, whatever... He's gobbling them up. He's crushing them under his heel.” — Abu [05:29]

4. “What if we have our own Desmond Hart who's got all those powers but believes what we believe in.” — Leo [15:16]

5. “It is very much like our real world... It's very much like a male first universe.” — Abu [30:14]

6. “The sets are gorgeous. I think the costumes have been wonderful and they are getting as close as you can on a table TV budget, which is not going to be a film budget.” — Abu [34:37]

7. “Dune prophecy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lore's broken. Has been for a while.” — Abu [46:42]

8. “We're still seeing like the seeds of those later versions.” — Abu [64:25]

9. “Happy Thanksgiving, y'all. For the folks that are celebrating. Hope you enjoy. Hope you have a lovely, restful holiday and spend some great time with people that you love.” — Abu [76:59]

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Supporting Gom Jabbar

Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast through Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and exclusive merchandise available at gomjabbbbbarshop.com. Additional support options include one-time donations via BuyMeACoffee or sending emails to gomjobarpodcastmail.com.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the live Q&A session, highlighting key discussions, listener interactions, and the hosts’ insights into the Dune universe as portrayed in Dune Prophecy Episode 2.

Transcript

[Leo]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

My name is Abu.

[Leo]

Hot dog. Happy turkey day, everyone. We are talking about Dune Prophecy episode two.

[Abu]

That's right. Welcome to another live Q and A bonus episode. And folks, if you're hearing this after the fact, a quick reminder, I did say live, which means you too can participate in these live streams and live recording sessions every Thursday at 11am Eastern. So sorry to our Pacific time folks who aren't morning people, but maybe you can try to join us one time. You can find that live stream and the live recording on the Lore Party YouTube channel. All of those links are down below in the description in the show notes, so check that out and if you. So please join us for the next live stream. If you're hearing this after the fact, there's already people in the chat I'm seeing popping off in there, which is so exciting.

[Leo]

Yeah, great to see you all. Tomas says Happy Thanksgiving from Brazil. Obrigado, Tomas. Hell yeah. Sounds good. So, Abu, it's been a few days since, well, for us it's been like a week. But it's been, I don't know, what, three, four days since the world saw Dune Prophecy episode two. What do you think? I know that this was the most divisive episode for you and me.

[Abu]

It was. Yeah. We very much came. We very much ended up in two different camps with this episode. I think I still feel the same about it. I'm not a fan of this episode for various storytelling reasons, for various seasonal structure reasons. I am a fan of this episode for the Dune stuff, you know, I really enjoyed the agony. What a spectacular scene. If the rest of this show is awful, we will still have walked away with the best agony scene on screen we've ever gotten. Right. And that's something to celebrate. So there were great moments, there were high highs in this episode, but overall, I'm still walking away. A little disappointed and a little concerned for the future of the show. But we'll have to see where things go because it is only episode two. We have four more to go. What about you? Where are you settling in with it after a week?

[Leo]

It is hard to pretend to have not seen episode three.

[Abu]

Yes, we have seen episode three, so we're being very careful not to try and hint at.

[Leo]

Yeah, so, yeah, no episode two. Let me go back to having only seen episode two. I really, really love Travis Flamel, Mark Strong. I think they're doing a great job. I really enjoyed the episode. I was having fun the whole time and there were elements that I think could have been better, but overall, yeah, I had a blast. And that hasn't also. That really hasn't changed that much. But it has been interesting over the last few days to see more of the questions that have surfaced and like, what's making sense to people who maybe aren't as familiar with Dune as I am. And also what's like not making sense to people who haven't read Sisterhood of Dune by Brian Herbert? Like, it's interesting to start seeing this show as a filtering method for, for people's reactions to this media. Like it is a show, but it's also rooted in this universe that people have different familiarities with. And yeah, Zaptages. Cheers to you from Sweden. That's very cool. Timabu. No, Tomas. How dare you. Yes, I said obadigado to you. Take that back.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

But I do love these questions that you've pulled. Do you want to start getting through them?

[Abu]

Yes, we have some pre prepared questions. Let's start tackling some of these. But of course, chat. Jump in with your own questions. We're gonna prioritize. You first. This pre prepared stuff, you know, we can get to whenever we want. So let me pull up this first question we have. This one is from Thomas Leif in Discord. So Thomas asks something I'm not clear on, but given how close this is, after the Butlerian Jihad, was the Spacing Guild already holding a monopoly on space travel? Where is the Spacing Guild?

[Leo]

Yeah, no, because right now it's Venport. It's Joseph Venport who's like making the Spacing Guild happen. Eventually it becomes the Spacing Guild, but I think that's even after like Navigators of Dune. Or maybe it happens during Navigators of Dune. The point is, at the time of this stuff happening, Venport, Joseph Vanport's very much establishing his monopoly or trying his best to establish his monopoly. And there's like celestial trans. Celestial transport. There's other. Other. Gosh, he just. I'm reading Mentats of Dune and he like just acquired a new one. And now people are kind of looking sideways at his growing monopoly, going, this guy's got too much power. But it is literally being established now by Joseph Vanport, the great grandson of the first Navigator.

[Abu]

Basically, that's Right. You put it very aptly. Joseph Vanport is like, I don't know, what's the best airline, folks? Delta, Emirates, whatever, Something like that.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And his competition right now is like Spirit. He's gobbling them up. He's crushing them under his heel.

[Leo]

And these, they have a bunch of accidents. People are like, oh, another. Another plane went down. You're like, was it Spirit Airlines? Like, how do you know? Wild guess. Yeah.

[Abu]

So he is muscling his way to economic dominance at this point in the timeline. And we haven't seen. My buddy just texted me and said, how dare you work on Thanksgiving. It just popped up on my screen and distracted me. Yo, always be working. No, don't always be working. Take time for us. I should heed my own advice.

[Leo]

We don't stand by that. Yeah, that's not the official stance of God.

[Abu]

Don't. Don't do as we do. Do as we say.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Thomas, thank you for the great question. I think a lot of folks are wondering where the Spacing Guild is in this show. I think it's still early and we may not see them this season.

[Leo]

It is worth noting that the Spacing Guild does have a monopoly on navigators. Like the navigator. The. The existence of Navigator Spacing, like space folding navigators is exclusively. Space is exclusively Venport's junk. So the Spacing Guild does have a monopoly on that technology. Everyone else is kind of just like trying to fold space. Hopefully because they have Holtzman engine, so they can. But there's a huge. There's like a 20 failure rate. And so it's like, do you want to roll a five sided die? And on one, everything on your ship disappears forever. Because that's what it's like to fly on celestial transport. Meanwhile, they've got the navigator, so they can get there pretty well. So, yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. We have some great comments here about the Guild. Angie wants to shout out that one of the characters did mention the Spacing Guild. Okay. In the episodes and that that is true. I believe there was a. A quick throwaway line about the Guild. So they do exist. They're around. Maybe Aurelius Ventoort himself is around somewhere, but we have yet to see him or the Guild in the show.

[Leo]

Yeah, and the show might play a little fast and loose with specific terminology. Like I know that like in Mentats of Dune and in these books, there's a distinction between Venport holdings and Venport transport. With the Spacing Guild, there's a distinction. I don't know if that's going to be the case in this adaptation that might be like unnecessary nuance that is just confusing for people who are trying to like place. Okay, Venport. Is that the same as the Space and Guild or not sort of thing?

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. Amber has a good follow up question here for us too. Amber says, I was a little confused on the timeline after the Butlerian Jihad. Aren't we in like a dark ages until Holtzman drops into orbit and gives us all the fancy tech that creates shields faster than light travel, et cetera, et cetera?

[Leo]

It's a good question. And this might be where like timeline stuff gets a little bit messy between the Dune encyclopedia and Brian's canonicity. To be clear, Holtzman engines that full space are retroactively called Holtzman engines, but they were invented before Holtzman. The space folding technology that allows people to travel faster than light has been around since like a couple thousand years after. It's like after we were off planet already, like we were exploring the cosmos. It they were around and they were safe and reliable because we had computers. So we are in now the dark era of not being able to use these engines because we can't calculate safe passages. And that's where the like. And yeah, that Holtzman has his other. But I think he's still thousands of years before the Butler and jihad, isn't he? Because he was hunted down. The end of his life is he's killed by Butlerians. He's like hunted down by Butlerians.

[Abu]

So you know what, we can fact check this. Let me pull this up real quick. While I'm doing that. Do you want to answer Bill's question? Folks might be wondering how are you able to watch the next episode already?

[Leo]

We have. We get screeners.

[Abu]

We have prescience.

[Leo]

We have prescience. We're both Queezas Haderachs. Completely by chance, we started this podcast and then we both awoken to our other memories and prescience. No, we get press screeners like five days, six days before. So we saw. We got episode three two days ago. It's Thursday now. We got it on Tuesday and we actually recorded the episode talking about it yesterday that you will hear on Monday.

[Abu]

So yes. Yeah, we actually pre record days in advance all the episodes that you hear except for this live show, obviously.

[Leo]

We pre recorded the live stream.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

With prescience. Yeah, put a shoe in your head to prove that you're. You're alive.

[Abu]

This is a great question about the Guild. I did fact check. So Amber had mentioned Holtzman.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And based on the encyclopedia. I just pulled up the encyclopedia on my computer based on the encyclopedia timeline, all of the Holtzman stuff. Holtzman's life happened before the Bellerian Jihad. Because if you'll recall from our Holtzman episode, he had overdue library fines for like thousands of years. Oh yeah, and the Butlerian Librarians murked his ass when he finally swung around the universe and came back again ruthless. So all of that happened before the Butlerian Jihad. They fucking murked his ass. So the. But Holtzman tech does exist by this time in the universe.

[Leo]

So shielding.

[Abu]

That's why we see things.

[Leo]

I forgot about the Librarian.

[Abu]

Yeah, so there's that answer to that question. Wow, what a great one. I mean, Thomas definitely opened up a can of worms here about the Guild. Here's my take. I don't think we're seeing any Guild members in this season yet. I think we're hyper, hyper focused on the sisterhood.

[Leo]

I also, I think you're right. You said this at some point, but I think we are waiting for Vilna to do Spacing Guild stuff first. Like, I think he's going to do Edric in Messiah and that's going to be the first modern adaptation of the Spacing Guild Navigator. And then we might see it in a follow up series or something like that. Like, based on our conversation with Allison Schapker, the showrunner and executive producer of the show, it seems like Spacing Guild, they will probably be looking at it more closely in future, future seasons, if they get them right.

[Abu]

Yeah, we did ask the showrunner an EP this question, which y'all will hear that interview next week, I think.

[Leo]

Yeah, six days Wednesday.

[Abu]

Tomas has a question that I think a lot of folks are wondering after Quinn threw out into the universe that Desmond might be related to Ixions or Tleilaxu. Tomas says, yeah, the question about the Spacing Guild is true, but also, do we have any clarification as to where or how the Tleilaxu and the Ix scenes are? You know, where are these folks at this point in the timeline?

[Leo]

I cannot. We know I can. I don't think in either Sisterhood of Dune or Mintats of Dune, which is the most in depth knowledge I have about like Brian's timeline. I don't think Ixians are mentioned at all. The Tlulax or Tlaxlu or whatever the fuck they're called are around and they are reviled and you know, they're. They're around for sure. There's actually a couple of like there's slavers and also just scientists. And there's a couple of characters who are like Thlax Lou scientists. Like there's a character Ptolemy who ends up pretty good buddies with a guy named Nofi. And then there's another. There's another one whose name I can't remember. Beckham or something like that. But anyway, there are Tleilaxu around and they're reviled, but they're like scientists and slavers. And generally they're considered like a separate faction. But they're around.

[Abu]

Yeah. Which again, at least like an early form of them, you know, certainly nods. I think the. The culture that we know by the time heretics. So they're around. I don't know that they're a major player. And I actually, as much as I love Quinn and as interesting as his theory is, I'm quite confident that we are not seeing Tully Lacks who are exceeding the show.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think the more season one. Can you highlight call me Bill's most recent comment because I am 100% there. I think, I think we are seeing this. I think we are seeing.

[Abu]

You read it for the folks listening, right?

[Leo]

Oh, right. Gosh, Sorry. So call me Bill says, quote, I agree. I think Desmond is a failed Kwisatz Haderach, end quote. I think that implies intent and I'm not sure if I agree on intent. But I think what we are seeing is the beginning of the breeding program that will aim to have the Kwisatz Haderach. I think we are seeing. The more I've thought about it and the more that we talk about it, I think we are seeing the Bene Gesserit learn what is possible, what powers are possible. And I said it on a previous episode. But I think we are going to see them say, wait, what if we could do that again? What if they kill Desmond Hart at the end of episode six, maybe. And then they say, what if we have our own Desmond Hart who's got all those powers but believes what we believe in.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

And then I think that's the breeding program and that will be become the long term goal. And I can almost picture it now. Valia, you know, breathless and blood splattered going, blood splattered. I have an idea. And the other sisters around her as they've just. They're standing over his slain body, blood splattered. Blood splattered, all of them. There's a lot of blood inside desert, famously so much blood. But I imagine them going, what if. And then Valya going, we need to do that again. And then all going, you're crazy. You've lost your mind. And her going, no, no, no, we're going to control them. That's what we should aim for. I could see that being the thing. So he is the sort of proto Paul. We've talked about that. I'm more and more convinced that that's the way it's going to go.

[Abu]

Zaptages actually has a great comment here related to this. Zaptas says, do you believe Desmond might be a proto cruise of Hyderach? Yes. You know, I think you just stated that I'm in the same boat. The Deez Nuts Caddyshack is described as. Oh, I see. That's a Kwisat satellite.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Is described as being able to be in two places simultaneously, which he shows when he kills Pruitt and Kasha in two places simultaneously. That's a very cool read on it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Ben Dick Cucumberbatch plays the Deez Nuts Caddyshack. This adaptation of Dune. Yeah, the. The two places in once. And also the shortening of the way. There's a lot of, like, references and kind of hints that maybe we're going a Kwisatz Haderach direction. I also. Tomas says the thing if. If Desmond Hart has fire, magical powers, I will use the voice against HBO just like, wow. Take out your Take, withdraw. Take your blade out, whatever. The origins of the Gam Jabar.

[Abu]

Wait until we get all our screeners. Okay? Like, don't fuck up our production.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, chill, chill for like four more weeks. Three more weeks. The. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Amber definitely agrees with your theory. Amber says agree with you here, Leo. We have to remember this is sisterhood. These. This sisterhood are literally baby witches. They're not even Bene Gesserit yet.

[Leo]

Baby witches is a great. Is a great name for like a Japanese rock band. Like. Like one of those. Like those, like pop metal, you know, like. Like. Oh, what's the. What's the. Yeah, I don't know what the. There's a. There's a. It's like. It's like. It's like baby metal or like pink metal or something like that.

[Abu]

Anyway, are you thinking of.

[Leo]

Is Hot Pink, the metal band from Japan? There's a couple of. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[Abu]

Somebody help us out. I think Cyberedgola has an interesting comment here. Do you think they will tell any Dune encyclopedia stories? I'd like to see Holtzman's story or the Impala Rose tale.

[Leo]

Cyber.

[Abu]

We would like to as well.

[Leo]

Yeah, so there's this really fun thing that happened where the Dune Encyclopedia invented a bunch of characters and then suddenly they all appeared in Brian Herbert books, so randomly. So, yeah, I think we're kind of getting like, if we. Yeah, so. Yes. I mean, it's not for sure. No, it's nothing that is officially the Encyclopedia will be at any near the. The.

[Abu]

No, it's been decanonized. And Brian Herbert, as the head of the Herbert estate, has made sure that it will never see the light of day again, legally. So.

[Leo]

So. No. But. But if you know the Dune Encyclopedia very well, you'll see some stuff. You'll see some stuff in future.

[Abu]

It'll bleed through, you know. You know, I would. I would encourage folks to skim through the encyclopedia and then maybe skim some Brian stuff and try and tell me the difference.

[Leo]

These are the same image is. Is the meme. So, yes. What is. Let's see. You want to pull up a new question from the Preloaded?

[Abu]

Yes, let's pull up another question here. Next up, we have, you know what a question about Desmond, since we're already sort of talking about him. This is from Alex, 33, in our Discord. One of our patrons, Alex, asks, do we think that the fact that Desmond Hart is immune to the Voice is showing that he may be some sort of Ixian tech? Have we seen other instances of that? I think we've already sort of answered the Ixian part of that question, but I think the interesting part is, have we seen other instances in Dune lore of people being resistant to the Voice?

[Leo]

Yeah, resistance to the Voice is prime canon. You know, Paul knows how to resist the Voice and teaches Duncan. We find out in Heretics, he teaches Duncan also how to resist the Voice. At one point, Jessica worries that she can't use the Voice on Gurney Halleck because of his. His familiarity with different things. Like, there are people who are resistant to the. The manipulation that is at the core of what the Voice is. In Brian's universe, there are examples of people resisting the Voice to a degree. Dorothea in Mentats of Dune, when we see in the first episode that she just stabs herself in the book she actually likes, turns the knife around and manages to get it a little bit closer to. So she has the knife and then she actually resists and, like, almost stabs Valya with it. And then Valya says it again and she kills herself. But there. So there are moments of resistance, for sure. And in Brian's lore, there's also things like earplugs that block out the voice and stuff like that. So for sure he could be. He could be some sort of Ixian thing we've talked about. I being. Maybe this is what's introducing icks to the galaxy. And they're like a faction that's opposed to riches, but. Or Richese. Rickese, but. No, nothing. Nothing. Yeah, nothing comes to mind. V for Vertigo says if Desmond has Brian earplugs, I'm gonna be annoyed. Same.

[Abu]

Same. And actually, I was saving this for later when we would share our favorite Dune jokes of the week, but I guess I'll share it now because it's about earplugs. Matthias, in our discord, one of our patrons cracked this joke earlier today that made me giggle. Maybe Desmond has voice canceling earbuds. AirPods Pro.

[Leo]

AirPods Pro 3. They cancel out the voice. There's transparency mode when you want to hear people talk, and then there's noise canceling. Only eliminates the voice.

[Abu]

Yeah, Yeah. A lot of folks in the chat are talking about how Desmond's burning power is perhaps the inspiration for the pain box in the future. Yeah, maybe.

[Leo]

But I fall back on what we talked about with Quinn, which is like. It is similar imagery, but it is not similar technology, because although it is shown as burning and skin cracking and blackening and all that, it is pain induction. There's no burning. So the fact that these people actually were burned. Yeah, Unrelated.

[Abu]

Different feel.

[Leo]

I think this is. This is different. If anything, it's closer to, like, Sorceress of Rossic. Pyroblast. Whatever.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Or yes. Microwave technology is something I don't think it's going to be related to. That being said, I. We have seen the Gom Jabbar now in the intro. So the ring kind of dissolves into the Gom Jabbar needle. The two towers by the Bene Gesserit school are very Gom Jabbar coded. And also there's, you know, we're still in the world of, like, figuring this stuff out. So I could see. I could see the inception of the Gom Jabbar needle being a part of the show, but we'll have to wait and find out. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

[Abu]

All right, let's. Let's move on to another. Okay, this one's a quick one, but someone tweeted this at me earlier today. Or earlier yesterday. I don't know. The days are all blending together. So on Twitter, asked me, what if the prophecy is about Duncan Idaho?

[Leo]

That's very funny because Duncan is kind of the main character Of Dune. No, it's not.

[Abu]

Yeah. I mean, this one feels like a solid.

[Leo]

No, it is. It is. Again, Desmond is a little bit like the Temu dunk in Idaho. The wish.com. dunkin, Idaho. But no.

[Abu]

Yeah, I don't think, you know, people are throwing a lot of ideas out about what the prophecy could be about. Is it Desmond? That seems too obvious. Is it Paul Atreides? Maybe? I mean, the show started with literal.

[Leo]

Text that says before Paul Atreides. Yeah.

[Abu]

So are we drawing it? Very clear line there. Is it Leto, too? That, to me, continues to feel less and less likely. Is it Omnius, the overmind, evil robot AI thing? Maybe. I mean, there were some mechanical thinking and whirring when those eyeballs showed up.

[Leo]

On screen, so it sounded very tech to me.

[Abu]

Maybe. And the relationship with tech and artificial intelligence seems to be a clear thematic through line of this show. So, yeah, it's seemingly. I don't think it's about Duncan at all, but to me, it's seeming less and less like. Like it's about Leto or Paul either. I think we're leaning more technology.

[Leo]

Yeah. Tomas says Duncan Idaho is not capable of creating rfl. And that's a great point because RFL is a piece of all of this. And as much as Duncan Idaho can get blackout drunk on spice beer, he's not exactly out here threatening the existential existence of powers in the universe. And V for Vertigo follows up with the. Absolutely excellent. A great Chad is coming.

[Abu]

A great Chad.

[Leo]

This really fucking hot rock climber. He's gonna change everything.

[Abu]

Tiron rfl, maybe, alternately, is just about sex prowess and sex prowess, sexual. Duncan would be like an extinction level event. Angie has a. Has a great comment here I want to highlight. Angie says, I do love the fact that the show has us all theorizing, and that in itself is exciting. So true.

[Leo]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's the fun part.

[Abu]

You know, I gotta say, I always wish that I was young enough to have watched Lost live and then had, like, week by week, gotten to, like, geek out about Lost with my friends. I watched it later in life and just, like, binge the whole thing in my basement on a sad weekend alone. So I didn't get that, like, classic experience. I didn't get that, like, week to week, season to season, like, unravel this mystery box show and talk about come up with crazy theories. That to me, is the best part of television. I love television. And the best part of it is geeking out about it with people who are just as excited.

[Leo]

So, yeah, like the storytelling and the art of it is all excellent. But for sure there's an extra Z dimension to like, we're talking about it with your friends and stuff. I also think, like, this is. I love Dune so much. If you couldn't tell from what I know. If you couldn't tell from four and a half years of Gom Jabbar. But I think the thing, like to hear people talking about it, you know, like, I, I just got to Arkansas and I have family in the car being like, have you, have you started watching Dune Prophecy? And it's like, woo, we're all talking about Dune.

[Abu]

This is so. But also, do you know who I am?

[Leo]

But, but also, what do you think.

[Abu]

I've been doing for four years?

[Leo]

Some respect on my name, watching it.

[Abu]

It is super fun to see that, right? Watching it, mom, watching it.

[Leo]

Watching is too casual a word.

[Abu]

Yeah, it is fun. It is exciting to see it out in the wild and to watch Dune permeate the mainstream in a way that like, I think longtime Dune fans certainly have not experienced. You know, it's been this thing in the shadows that we've all enjoyed for so many decades.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Abu]

Here's a fun question.

[Leo]

Oh, sorry, yeah, no, no, yeah, you're. Yes, let's talk about that one.

[Abu]

Okay, let's talk about this question from last in the comments. Is the empire patriarchal? I always thought the Bene Gesserit moved in the shadows because there are limits to how much direct power women are allowed to, to hold in their society.

[Leo]

Great question. And kind of, I mean, the thing to note is that like House Corino only exists for the last, like hundred years, because before House Corino, they were all named Butler. Like Serena Butler and Johann Butler. Like they are. That's the family. And the family, because of the battle of Corinne, rebranded themselves as the emperors of the universe, as the Carinos. So the, the thing is, like, the universe right now is in its infancy. They're still, they're figuring it out. They're trying to figure it out. And coincidentally it has fallen on havoco. Carino is, I guess the son of. He's the son of Roderick Carino.

[Abu]

Roderick, sorry, not Roberto. Roderick.

[Leo]

Roberto Anaru. So yeah, like, it is clearly passing son to son, but that might just be the whims of the individuals. And I think ultimately, if you said, well, the husband died of mysterious circumstances and the wife survives him, depending on the force of personality of the woman, I suspect she could probably be like, nah, I'm Empress now. Like, Bow to me. And I think that that could probably work. I don't see anything in, like, the convention or any, like, official agreed upon rules that, no, you cannot be in power if you're a woman. It's just kind of like how things have kind of shaken out. That's my sense. But also there might be something in the, like, Machine War books that says, like, hey, we've decided that this is going to be the way it is. I don't know. What do you think?

[Abu]

I would disagree with that because I think it is patriarchal. And it's quite clear in the show, at least, that it is, because Yanez is clearly the next in line. Right. Constantine Fuckboy, we know, is. Has no right to the throne. He's. He's her half sibling. Right. Something. He's like a bastard child, basically.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Ynez, technically, is the only heir to the throne, but Yanez is being married off to Pruitt Richesi, who will then sit on the throne as emperor. She will not rise to, like, she couldn't solo rise to the throne as empress in this situation without being married to someone who would then be emperor. I think also there's the indication from Pruitt's sister that she was just, like, sent off to some backwater planet while Pruitt was involved in the Riches family politics. So, like, her being sidelined. Even though she's the elder sister, she's still here playing politics and involved in some way. It's not that she has no agency or involvement within the family, but I do think it's very much, much like our real world. It's very much like a male first universe.

[Leo]

Yeah, but is that. Is that. Do we. Do we have any sense that that is like an agreed upon convention of how everyone's like.

[Abu]

I mean, patriarchy doesn't have to be agreed upon. The Constitution doesn't say presidents have to only be men. You know, patriarchy is an implicit institutional culture.

[Leo]

That's true. I guess I was. Yeah, I guess I was thinking about it as like a. Like a constitutional thing, but yeah. Okay.

[Abu]

So from that lens, I don't think codified law. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

Well, because there are. There are cultures that had codified law that said, you know, X, Y, and Z, but like.

[Abu]

Oh, sorry.

[Leo]

So I don't. I don't think this is a situation of codify law.

[Abu]

So, like, codify what?

[Leo]

Men. Exactly. Like, women can't be priests and stuff like that, so.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

For sure. Okay.

[Abu]

Yeah, I don't think it's that Like, I. I do think, like, to. To whatever extent, like, people in the Imperium, like women in the Imperium can do. Do have many rights. But I think culturally, it is still a patriarchal society in which men continue to dominate.

[Leo]

Yeah, like. Well, well, and another example is like, if Johan, Johanna, Serena Butler, whoever the butler was, who was leading the Butlerians before she died, putting Manfred Toronto in charge before she died, she was leading one of the most powerful factions in the Imperium. And no one. I don't know. So. Yeah, but I think that answers the question. Oh, but Takako points out, by the time of Paul Atreides, women can't inherit the golden lion throne, which is why Paul has to marry Irulan. Yeah, yeah, that and I think. And again, maybe that's just House Corrino is like a. Again, I'm not. Is that codified, Takako, do you remember? Is that like a codified rule thing? Or is it just because misogynists be misogynistic, you know, and House Corino's a shitty family of, like, men first. Yeah.

[Abu]

I would love to fact check this at some point, but now I'm wondering. The encyclopedia does have a list of emperors.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I have never actually gone line by line through that list. I wonder if there was ever an Empress in the history of the Imperium.

[Leo]

Well, as we're talking, I will pull it up.

[Abu]

I'd have to fact check that. In the meantime, I want to throw up Hussie's question here. Hussie asks, how are you guys finding the visuals of the show? Do you think they have done a good enough job considering they had to live up to Denis Villeneuve's movies, which are pure magic? Visually.

[Leo]

I think they're doing great. I mean, I think, yeah, I think visually they're doing an incredible job. They've been very smart with the camera angles and making sure that we're really focusing on the people talking. And honestly, between the first two episodes, there aren't that many crazy sets, but it still feels like a very fleshed out world. And I think episode two has the space port. Right. With Jortasia and Valya. Like, that whole scene was so fun. So Lucis Secundus has been beautiful. Zimea looked great, you know, so, like, I'm. Yeah, I'm loving it. I think it's. It's beautiful. What do you. What do you think?

[Abu]

I agree. I think something you've said on our episodes a couple of times rings true for me as well. We're Seeing a world. We're seeing worlds that are lived in. Something that we were sorely missing from the Villeneuve films where we hyper focused on our main cast and practically saw none of the rest of Arrakeen and only saw extras in the background of a sietch. Right. This is a world in which we are seeing commerce take place on that docking port that Valya and the acolyte arrive at. And so we're obviously, you know, as much as I hated it, we're still seeing the club scene where people are recreationally doing things. It's a lived in universe where more than our main characters are actively doing things on screen. And so I'm quite enjoying the visuals. I think the visuals have been a home run for this show, actually. The sets are gorgeous. I think the costumes have been wonderful and they are getting as close as you can on a table TV budget, which is not going to be a film budget. As close as you can to Denis Villeneuve. I think they're doing a spectacular job.

[Leo]

Agreed. And without saying too much, that continues to be the case. In episode three, I do see from the year 803 to 883 there was an empress named Alia I Solusa. Okay, so there's at least one because some of these names, I'm not sure. Yeah, Maria Mustami was the, was the Emperor from 1647 to 1680. So at least according to the Dune encyclopedia. Now ultimately we don't know the circumstances of those. If that was like they were acting because their, you know, their, their, their husband, the rightful emperor was gone or something like that. But at least according to the June encyclopedia.

[Abu]

Or it could be like it, like a situation where the husband is quite young or a child still. Right. And you just kind of have like, like a Cersei from Game of Thrones situation.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Sitting, sitting on the throne until the rightful heir comes of age situation.

[Leo]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Abu]

Still, that's fun to see that in the encyclopedia. We did see some women sitting on the throne itself. That's dope. But that is that again, speaking of patriarchy, I think that is outside the norm. Right. We're not seeing for sure representation of like 50. 50 men and women.

[Leo]

No, no, no, of course not. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

All right, let's, let's hit up another question. We had probably pre prepared here. This one. Where's this one from? This is, this is one I found on Reddit. So you know, be prepared. Simar Simarbeer on Reddit asks, is Valya setting things up so that Harkonnens will be in power not directly through the crown, but through keeping House Corrino on the throne, but weak. So basically is Valya's long con here, actually not to get an Empress on the throne, but to help her House, House Kirino, gain power through manipulating the Karinos.

[Leo]

I am doubtful because we don't know a ton yet about like Falia and House Harkonnen, but we do see that she's rejecting their requests for a Truthsayer. And that feels like even if she was being equal to everyone, she would grant them a truth sayer because she's granting truth sayers left and right. So why be particular? You know, there's that idea of like maybe she's playing to not being favorite favor, you know, favoritism, whatever. But that seems extreme. So I. I don't know. I'm doubtful also because in 10,000 years, the Harkonnens don't become crazy powerful. They just become a great House again. And according to the Dune Encyclopedia, at least it is. And actually the appendices of Dune, it is through whale fur. And I guess whale come and then eventually they are given, you know, an 80 year domain of Arrakis. But even that's like a fief partial, you know, so it's not some crazy come up in House. Corrino's crippled after that historically. And this is still a prequel series. So I kind of feel like, no, but what do you think?

[Abu]

I think you're spot on. And in fact, I pulled this question because I think it gives us the opportunity to sort of talk about Valia show versus Valia book. Because in the book she is kind of more Harkonnen focused, right. More obsessed with her family and getting revenge against the Atreides and helping the Harkonnens rise back up. I think she certainly has maybe some of those motivations in the show. But the primary thing seems to be sisterhood first. Right. She is solely focused on the sisterhood as Mother Superior and in particular focused on stopping Tyran Arifel. And her rejection of Harken and Truthsayers in that first episode, I think shows us that it's sisterhood first for her. And that's maybe a slight difference from book Valia that we know. Although I think, I believe by the time you get deeper into the books and into Mentats of Dune, the second one, she does kind of become more sister at first. Her allegiance is to evolve.

[Leo]

Yeah. But that's also partially because of Tula. Like, Tula is like, she's very. Me and Griffin are going to save House Harkonnen, and then Griffin dies. And then Tula's like, not really in the picture at all. During Sisterhood of Dune, but then Mentats of Dune, she's like, I want to send Tula. I want to bring Tula into the sisterhood. And then she does, and then she discovers they kind of figure out this way to get back at Voryan Atreides, and she, like, sends Tula off on an errand. So, like, that's where Tula becomes sort of the agent for House Harkonnen. And Vali is like, I have to focus on the sisterhood. So you're right. But I think Tula is the kind of key to that. And in this show, Tula is right there right from the beginning, and it's a little less delineated between the two. So, I mean, again, I think they're just as characters, they're much more flushed out in the show with, like, agency and perspectives and opinions, but we'll have to see.

[Abu]

I agree, though. I don't think her long con has anything to do with the Harkonnen, actually. I think her long con, if anything, has to do with the breeding records that Raquela told her about. And here on our Fell this prophecy at the moment, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And ultimately, like, putting putting an Empress on the throne is her short term goal. And I think her long term goal is, is steer humanity in a direction that I think is correct.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And I don't know that Harkonnen plays a huge role in that.

[Leo]

Agreed. I think that's spot on.

[Abu]

Okay, next up, we have a question here. This one is also from Reddit, From Tricky Dinner 9181.

[Leo]

Appropriate for Thanksgiving.

[Abu]

In the show. Arrakis is under the control of the Karinos. Why would they ever give it up to the Harkonnens? Why give up your most valuable asset to the Harkonnens? As we know, the Harkonnens have it in Paul Atreides time. So I think this is more of a question of, like, what's going on with the politics at play here.

[Leo]

So it's funny because I'm reading Mentats of Dune right now and I just got to the portion where Salvador Carino is finally convinced by Manfred Toronto that spice and spice production should be an imperial piece of business and should not be owned and operated by an individual of the of the Empire because it's too powerful. Spice is too valuable a substance to leave it in the hands of just one person who owns a company or whatever. So it's. I'm kind of seeing this shake out a little bit. But the thing to keep in mind with House Harkonnen having Arrakis, quote, unquote, is that they were given House, they were given Arrakis to manage spice production under fief. Partial. Partial fief control. And it's a contract that can be revoked at any time and they can be evicted at any time. It is. They are stewards of Arrakis until their contract is up and they're not giving it away to the Harkonnens. And if the Harkonnens didn't deliver on certain expectations of spice production or whatever, they're out. And that's also why House Harkonnen is so awful to the Fremen, because they are. They only understand control through subjugation and through violence. And so 80 years our people suffered under the House. And that's because the Fremen fuck with spice production. And House Harkonnen wants to make as much money as possible in addition to fulfilling their contract for the Emperor. So, you know, Arrakis is under control of the Karinos. Doesn't happen yet in Mintats of Dune, where I am maybe by the end, or maybe by Navigators of Dune, it's under. But again, Havoco is a child where I am in the book. So it's a little. It's a little. It's a little hard to say. Maybe that's going to be something that we. I get to in later in the book.

[Abu]

But, yeah, and I think in a larger, like, political, economic sense, Arrakis is the most important planet in the Imperium. It provides the most important resource in the Imperium. So it is a bargaining chip.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

If House Corrino, if the Emperor were to say no, it. This is. I keep the transformer toy. No one else is ever allowed to play with it. Yeah, People would rebel. Right? Like, people would be like, well, we're going to attack you then. Right? Like, I'm taking your toy from you. I'm. I want to play with the transformer. And so I think in order to keep a tenuous peace and stability within the Empire, both economically and politically, it is in the best interest of whoever sits on the throne to share Arrakis in a way that, quote, unquote, feels fair enough to other Houses, you know, to. To pass, like, pacify them a little bit. So I think that's where the contract comes in. Like, we pass the ruckus around to people, you get a contract. We, we, you know, hit you with that Apple 70 with that 30% cut.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And so, like, I think that is the impetus for why House Karina would give it up. Because you don't want every other faction in the Imperium coming at you because you're being too greedy.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's a lot of optics in, like, Imperial control. And that's also why they don't outright. That's why they disguise the Sardaukar in Harkonnen livery, because if you're seeing doing shit, people will call you out for it and can topple your throne. So, yeah, that's a great point for sure.

[Abu]

Next up, we have a question about other memory. And our Discord was really chatting about this a lot in the last couple of days. There was a lot of confusion about how other memory was. The technicalities, I suppose, of other memory. So this is actually a question I polled. I believe this was from Reddit. Jeremy D. Voss says, if I recall correctly, other memory is only genetically inherited. So does Dune prophecy break the lore? He goes on to say. Or they. Excuse me, they go on to say that wouldn't the memories you receive from your mother only be up to your birth? Basically, yeah. Wouldn't it be passed down up to the point of conception? How would, for example, Dorothea know what happened after she died in that first episode?

[Leo]

Yeah. So, yes, yeah. Dune prophecy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It breaks the lore. Yep. Lore's broken. Has been for a while. Yeah. So prime canon, other memory. We have to do an episode on this at some point because it is really confusing and there's a lot of misconceptions based on later events in the books. And, like, there's even a conversation about, like, we just recorded this, I guess, for the mailbag, which is. Is that coming out tomorrow?

[Abu]

It is coming out tomorrow.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a theory that had no pressure. I hadn't even considered this, but, like, Jessica Never Awakens is, like, a theory that I have because she doesn't have any evidence of other memory anywhere in Dune. And we just kind of assume she has it, but we don't get any prime examples of her having it. She's given Mother Ramallo's memories. But that is similar to in, like, Heretics of Dune, when people give each other their memories. So it's like there's given memory and then there's genetic other memory. And as far as we see in prime canon, it is to the point of conception, and it is also not Even the person, it's like your memory idea of them, which is embodied a little bit like when Leto is talking to Paul in his other memory. It's not actually Paul Atreides, it's like this shadow of the character which is also how Abomination becomes dangerous. Because you have someone like Baron who, who is just this parody spirit of gluttony and I don't know, rule and.

[Abu]

Control and I would say even like Alia's, the type of memory that like Alia, Leto, Ganima and Paul are using. I would even put that in like a different category than what your average Bene Gesserit is able to tap into. Because I feel like they, they are a very unique case because of their preborn nature. Because of.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Things we know about them as like Kwisatz Haderachs, you know. Yeah, I think like your average Bene Gesserit will get simply the memories of their ancestors up to the point of conception passed down. Conception passed down.

[Leo]

That being said, in Brian's books there's moments where they learn about current events from their other memory. So like there's a moment where Rachela knows that Dorothea has awoken because of whispers in her other memory. And it's like, like it's the Internet and you're getting pinged like a pop up notification or whatever. Or I'm just. I just got through a chapter where Dorothea has a. An other memory dream, but the dream is. Gives her a mentat projection even though the person in the dream isn't related to her and is dead. So like, it's crazy. There's just like no rules. There's no rules.

[Abu]

And I think Angie is kind of pointing this out too. In the comments. Angie says, I feel like the books break this too. Yeah, like certainly the Brian books break it. But I would even wager like Frank himself plays quite loose and fast with Bene Gesserit powers as the books continue and never quite sticks to like, this is the rule and it can never be broken. And I don't think Frank Herbert was quite so rigid with world building. He was focused much more on his ideas and his stories first.

[Leo]

But that's also.

[Abu]

And he built an incredible world around it but in service of those stories and ideas.

[Leo]

And I think that's the key because Brian, like Frank's rules weren't necessary to understand the stakes and to care about the characters and the universe versus in Brian's books, they're being involved all the time and someone's gonna do this thing. And like again, the, the Whole con, the whole conflict between Dorothea and Raquela is that Dorothea is Raquela's granddaughter and discovers the computers that Rachella set up way after Dorothea's birth, as I understand it, or whatever. So it's like the conflict is caused by other memory. Other memory becomes this catalyst for things to happen in a way that really makes you question how does it work? Because I could not have foreseen this happening until it suddenly happened. And I think that's where the difference is because Frank never demanded of us to ask ourselves how other memory works. Because the characters are all motivated by. They have desires and they want things. And it.

[Abu]

Right. Other memories, it works without other memory. Right. Like other memory isn't the linchpin of the character's next motivation or the next plot point. It doesn't always like hinge on that which, you know, again, like, is it critical to the plot and the characters? Yes, it's part of the decision making process. But I think you make a strong point there that it, it becomes a crutch in the Brian books in a way that, in. In a way that Frank never overly relied on, I think.

[Leo]

Yeah, like even Eli has that. That comment. Maybe the ping was more ADAB than just other memory. But ADAB is demanding memory. Like the idea of ADOB is they have these like vast things that they've memorized that just sit in their subconscious and they. There's like, you know, external stimuli can trigger subconsciously. I need this information intact in its entirety right now. So rather than like, oh, how do I say thank you in Polish and you're not trying to remember this thing that you memorized. It's like suddenly you have this book open in your head of exactly the words you need to say should you choose to. And demanding memory tends to be that where you have this arsenal of memorized shit that can come upon you at any time for you to get X, Y and Z done versus the like Dorothea being like oh or versus Raquela being like oh, Dorothea awoken. Like that's not something she learned or memorized. You know, it is. It does seem like a push notification, but push notifications aren't necessarily adopt.

[Abu]

Right. Most of us have a fight or flight response in a dangerous situation. And you know, Reverend mothers have fight, flight. Or Google search one of those three things.

[Leo]

Or a GPT query.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, like a quick ask chat shit GPT how to say something in Poland. Ben has a funny comment here. Brian. Brian's universe, other memory is just a web server that the sisters Connect to. Yeah, yeah, it's an AOL disc they get in the mail, you know, they.

[Leo]

Pop that sucker in, you've got mail.

[Abu]

And they dial up baby right into other memory. Okay, we are almost at time here. We do actually have Thanksgiving things to do with our family.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

So let's squeeze in just a couple more questions and say goodbye. Let's see, let's see. What other ones did we have pre prepared here? Okay, here's, here's maybe some rapid fire ones we can just like rattle off real quick. Robert D. On YouTube. This was a comment on our YouTube channel. Where are the Sardaukar? Will we see them born related to Desmond in any way? Where's the OC Bible? And will we see the birth of the missionary Protectiva? A little three for one here.

[Leo]

Okay, I'll answer the first piece. You answered another one. First piece. Where the Sardaukar? I don't know. No idea. Will we see them born or related to Desmond? I kind of thought so in the previews because of like Desmond walking with those guards with the black masks and everything. I was like, oh, maybe this is the beginning of the Sardaukar. But the Sardaukar canonically require Seleucus Secundus to be like a harsh prison world. And that's where they are honed and made strong kind of legendarily. And that doesn't exist right now. It's a beautiful, bustling, luscious world. So I don't know. I don't. I'm starting to think. No, I'm starting to think we're not going to get any mention of Sardaukar in this series. That's my opinion. What about you?

[Abu]

As far as the. I agree. As far as the OC Bible question goes, I think we maybe saw something akin to the OC Bible because the sisters are reading from a book during the funeral and chanting prayers of some sort.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And you would imagine that is maybe a Nod to the OC Bible.

[Leo]

Yeah. And canonically the OC Bible was released like 30 years, something like that before when like maybe 10, 15 years before Valya was born. Basically, if I'm recalling correctly, it's a little again, fast and loose with Valya's age and when the book came out. But yes, I think it was a little bit before Valya was born that the OC Bible was first published and it was to great scandal. And then it was re released in the lifetime of Salvador Corinna, who I think predates Havoco. So it's around. And will we see the birth of the Missionary of Protectiva? Maybe. I don't know if I think the Missionary of Protectiva, the whole point of it is to soften the universe for an eventual power play from the Bene Gesserit around the Kwisatz Haderach. So if Desmond is the proto Kwisatz Haderach, if he's Proto Paul and he gives them the idea, then I could see them going, okay, we need to start, you know, maybe that's the final scene of this series where Valya tells everyone, go out. Start getting people familiar with this idea of a savior who is going to have a mother who's a Bene Gesserit, and that's how we're going to take control. And 10,000 years or something like that.

[Abu]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe the seed of an idea that becomes the Missionary Protectiva.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Here's another quick question that we can tackle. This is an email from one of our listeners, Claire. Claire asks, it seems like most of the Bene Gesserit acolytes are pretty young. Isn't Princess Inez a little too old to be joining? Why wasn't she recruited when she was younger?

[Leo]

People come to the Bene Gesserit at different ages. I mean, they find wild talent out in the world. And you don't have to be young like Mentat training. You kind of have to be really young when you're doing Mentat training. Bene Gesserit training is best done when you're young. But we see, like, Faradin get basically indoctrinated by a good teacher, so it's doable for older people, it's not a huge deal.

[Abu]

It's more difficult. It's like learning a language. Later in life, it is going to be more difficult to learn a new language because you're just too entrenched in the thing you've been doing for 20, 30 years, whatever.

[Leo]

But. And I'll also say I kind of get the impression from the scene in episode two where Yanez and Kira and Atreides don't bang. She says that Kasha had taught her things as she was growing up.

[Abu]

I think she's been softly primed her whole life.

[Leo]

And so I think she knows quite a bit more. Like, she's not an acolyte who's arriving at the school knowing nothing. And now you get to learn because of her station as the literal, soon to be empress, the princess. I think she. They have done what they can to give her, like, her study abroad education. And now she's going to really get fully indoctrinated once she's at the school. I think that's the idea.

[Abu]

And I think that's quite clear given the Kasha, like, the maternal Kasha relationship, that priming is quite clear. Like, Yanez has been. Excuse me. Yanez has been prepared her whole life to want to become a Bene Gesserit. She's like, she bought into the propaganda, right. She's like, I can't. I can't wait to be a Reverend Mother. Bro, let's go. She like, she has been prepped her whole life.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

There's a reason Empress Natalia is skeptical of the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But her daughter Yanez is not and in fact wants to be one because Kasha has been prepping her for years.

[Leo]

And Takako points that out really beautifully. Yeah. Inez already seemed to know how to apply Valya's instructions to calm down. So, yeah, she already has these kind of one.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Thank you for writing it again, Takako, as a single message. Yeah. So I. I think that she has clearly already learned quite a few Bene Gesserit lessons. And it's just her station as the emperor, as the princess that has kept her from the standard method of like, bring her to the planet right away and get her, you know, whatever. So. Yeah, good question.

[Abu]

Yes, good one. Here's another one from Claire. Claire had a great email that was full of many questions that we maybe will tackle in a future episode. Claire also wanted to know, can you explain a little how the Bene Gesserit insinuated themselves into the great houses? Like, did they develop the skill of truth saying in part to make themselves useful and independent, indispensable? How do they earn the trust to be so close to the emperor?

[Leo]

Basically, it is. I don't know that. I. I don't know. We, as much as we were kind of promised this series would be the origin of the. The Beneath Jesuit sisterhood, the sisterhood, as it is called right now, we haven't seen exactly how they kind of make. Made that initial introduction. And we see, you know, we see moments in Brian's books where a character demonstrates their worthiness by like, outing someone in a moment. Right. Like Dorothea in. I think it's in Mentats of Dune, actually catches Emperor Salvador's wife in a conspiracy with like. With basically embezzling money. And that is a moment where then Salvador goes, oh, my God, Dorothea, she's great. And she actually. They have Dorotea do a like, one on one against the interrogator who, like, tortures people to get information, to see who can get more information out of someone. It's very. It's very weird. But the point is we. There are these moments, and then that person is then trusted and brought in.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And so we see those moments, but we don't see it from a. I haven't seen it from a zoomed out perspective, so I'm not sure.

[Abu]

I think the short answer to Claire is yes. Truth saying is one of the things in which is, like, part of the sales pitch.

[Leo]

For sure.

[Abu]

Sisterhood, you know, it's.

[Leo]

It's kind of their most valuable.

[Abu]

Like, we don't have, like, computers and AI and lie detectors anymore. Let us do that for you.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

That's certainly one of the strongest sales pitches they have to people like the emperor and other people in power. And that's how they have slowly installed themselves. In addition to just being like a trustworthy institution for schools. Right. Like, daughters around the Imperium might want to come to the Sisterhood because of the positive propaganda.

[Leo]

They've been hearing about it also. There is that element of the people in power are in power because of the fucking patriarchy. So they're just like, whatever. Guy's son is the one in charge. He doesn't know jack shit. He's. He's some brutish kid, you know, or. It's very hit or miss what people know. Like Constantine, meanwhile, you have the Sisterhood training some of the best political advisors and some of the best diplomats and the best translators and the best. Like, they are training some of the most capable advisors in the universe. So of course you say, well, I don't fucking know what I'm doing. My dad was the duke of this house and then he died, and now I'm in charge and. Oh, you're telling me you're beautiful. You can tell me if people are lying to me. And you've got a bunch of great advice. Excellent. Yeah. And that's the Bene Gesserit this time.

[Abu]

Call me. Bill asks us, did you guys like the third episode? No comment. Bill, we'll never tell asks us is. Tune in on Monday for our episode about that. Bill.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Last wants to know, is House Atreides somehow weakened at this point? What's going on with the Atreides?

[Leo]

No, they're around, but they're also not really. They're not really like, House Atreides kind of got on the map because an Atreides, as we're told in the intro narration to the first episode, House Atreides, according to legend, was like one of the people who helped lead the victory against the thinking machine robot mechs. But like House Atreides itself is not. I mean, it's a respected house and they're celebrated for being like, related to a war hero. But also it's worth noting that like, the Atreides themselves are kind of spread out. Vorian Atreides basically, like traveled around over hundreds of years and just like sired families. So there are Atreides right now, alive on Caladan. Yeah, I know there are Atreides on Caladan. There are Atreides on a planet called Kepler. There are Atreides on these like different planets. And they're around, but it's not like a unified great House. And even the ones that are on Caladan, they're kind of just a family in this one area. It's not like they aren't like a huge, you know, political force yet.

[Abu]

Because I'm also getting a great reminder that we are, we are still seeing a very nascent, nascent like Imperium.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

This is only 100 years into this brand new form of imperial government and power structures. So the great Houses in Landsraad as we know them in Paul's time is after 10,000 years of this institution growing, evolving, regressing, changing, dealing with rebellions, overcoming hurdles, politics, shifting left, right, center, up, down, whatever. Like that version of the Houses we see in 10,000 years is not what we're going to see here. We are still seeing like the seeds of, of those later versions.

[Leo]

Yeah, and I think even canonically, like House Atreides only gets Caladan and like, as a, as a political faction. So that's the other thing. Right, like the Landsraad or like the. Everyone who gets together to decide what's going to happen in the Imperium is kind of planet by planet at the time of this stuff. It's like, who's in charge of the planet? And then they have representatives who are, who are at council and negotiating trade deals and stuff like that. And there might be like family owned businesses, but we're not yet at the point where you have like established houses like House Harkonnen and House Atreides, who then are given planets or multiple planets to govern as part of contracts and things like that. Like Kaladin is given to House Atreides at one point and that is, that happens later, basically. So yeah, we're not yet to the point where there's like the House as an institution that can be moved planet to planet. Right? Now it's a little bit more like, you have families and you have people. Like, again, House Arkonan is not. They're not like a great house. So anyway, yeah, House Atreides not weakened because everyone's weak right now.

[Abu]

Right. Okay, one more question here from Hillary. This was an email, I believe, that we got from Hillary. What are the different classifications of Bene Gesserit? Is a Reverend Mother always a truthsayer? How are these decisions made about who gets what role?

[Leo]

So in Frank Cannon, they are distinct skill sets. And you have, like, imprinters might not necessarily be truth sayers. And although a Reverend Mother, an awoken Reverend Mother, is probably going to have most of those skills just in her backlog because you get the memories of the people in the past. So for sure there's an element of like, yeah, um, yeah, I, I. In Brian's lore, it's a little messier.

[Abu]

Can just, like, download a skill, like, if you need to learn. Oh, it's. I'm thinking of the Matrix. In the Matrix, like, Neo, I know Kung fu. I know kung fu. Like, install Kung fu in his brain. He can just install, like, how to pilot something in his brain. I. I think to answer part of Hillary's question, like, is a Reverend Mother always a truthsayer? I think it's sort of like a. A square rectangle situation. Like, if you get to the point of passing the agony and graduating to Reverend Mother, even if you weren't, like, traditionally trained in the truthsayer path at the school, you will just sort of learn or inherit many of those skills in your other memory. Does that mean, like, you'll be spectacular at it? No, but I think in a pinch, that is something you could access and use.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I think there's also the question if it's specifically about prophecy is also a little hard to suss out because we're not exactly sure. We haven't really gotten a hard, clean definition. So in prophecy, if they say, oh, that's Mother so and so, what does that mean that they have. It's kind of hard to say. Like, initially we were thinking they were just dodging the other memory thing altogether, because in the first episode, they were like, oh, Mother this, Sister this. And that's all the delineation we had. But in episode two, we see the agony. We see this explanation of other memory and this. If you do this, you'll have these people you can talk to in the past. So now it does seem like Tula and Valya have other memory and have some other Junk going on. But I also don't even know for sure.

[Abu]

Mario. Truth senses in her interrogation with she.

[Leo]

Does, but also so to the acolytes. The acolytes do the same thing in their, like, truth sense test so that you're able to do the truth sense without being another Reverend Mother. So, like, has Tula gone through the agony, for instance? Do we know and we haven't gotten any sense that she has for sure? Maybe she has.

[Abu]

Yeah. I can't. I can't recall. Does anyone in Chat remember if they've ever called Tula Mother Tula or have they always referred to as. To her as Sister Tula?

[Leo]

I don't think she's been referred to as Sister Tula. I think she's considered a Reverend Mother in the.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's completely unclear in prophecy what the titles mean and what that actually is referencing. But based on frank lore, like, to maybe answer Hillary's question about classifications. I think basically you have your sort of entry level candidates who come into the school, and then you graduate to the level of acolyte. You know, once you are accepted, you don't just come in and you're an acolyte. I think once you are committed to a path along the sisterhood, you know, once you pick a major quote, unquote. And then from there, I think from acolyte, you eventually grow into whatever role you might be working.

[Leo]

And there's, like, adepts, and there's, you.

[Abu]

Know, there's other adept, and then like.

[Leo]

Ultimately imprinters and truths.

[Abu]

You have imprinters later on in heretics, adept. So you. You then you sort of specialize from ET you specialize into whatever role you're going into. And I think ultimately at the top of the chain, one of the most difficult things you can try to go for is to become a Reverend Mother, to undergo the agony, graduate into Reverend Mother. But we see in Heretics and Chapter House, even among Reverend Mothers, there are further classifications that people specialize down into. Like Belanda, for example, is a.

[Leo]

Is a mentat.

[Abu]

Oh, also a mentat.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there. But for instance, there are. It's like. It is strange to think about a Reverend Mother who has awoken memories, who has, like, you know, millions of lives, and not one of those people was a mentat. So the fact that there are still Reverend Mothers who have awoken memories who are specifically mentats. I think in Children of Dune, we get the. The. The differentiation of. Leto says there's something very different. Like, that's why he has to Practice the baliset. Because even though he has baliset players in his past, that doesn't mean that he can suddenly play the balison. So there's a distinction between what other memories and other lives have you had and actually doing the thing. And depending on what that thing is, whether it's like imprinting or mentating or whatever, you actually have to do it a bit. That's true.

[Abu]

Especially a physical thing, like playing a ballast, you know, like maybe something like purely conceptual, you could just think your way through.

[Leo]

But I think the. I think the idea is most of it is. Is physical. Like, that's. That's kind of the beauty of Frank's world is that, like, almost everything is described in some way that is prana bendu, or perception or how you order your thoughts is even like neurochemical and things like that, which they can maybe adjust. So anyway.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's a great call. Like, it would take practice. Right? So I guess my neo download Kung Fu into your brain analogy is actually incorrect.

[Leo]

Well, I know how to explain. Kung Fu is the. It's the pretty desert way.

[Abu]

I know the theory. I could explain theory of Kung Fu to you, but, like, my muscles are not attuned to Kung Fu.

[Leo]

No, I'll explain it to you now.

[Abu]

Yeah, we have some good comments about this conversation in chat here. Either. Takako, for example, says, I suspect that truth saying is a skill taught to all sisters. But Reverend Mothers have specializations. Like, professors know a lot about their subject generally, but develop expertise in one area.

[Leo]

Yeah, that sounds. That sounds very plausible. Uh, someone said Angie Ryan, I believe.

[Abu]

Is a mother, says Ryan. Angie says that on the official Dune prophecy podcast, they called her a Reverend Mother.

[Leo]

So. Yeah, that. That tracks.

[Abu]

She's graduated. Oh, here we go. Angie clarifies. They made a point to say Tula went through the agony. Okay, so they really said she was a Reverend Mother, but the other sister who Valia sent in as a spy on. Oh, not a reverence Mother. The older woman that comes in.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Checks in about the Rossuck poison.

[Leo]

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Well, yeah, cool. So. Yes.

[Abu]

That. It's a fun thing. Yeah, I would love to. I would love to see, like, I don't know, like a. What am I thinking of? Not an org chart, but like a.

[Leo]

Like a flowchart, like a developmental.

[Abu]

Like a develop development chart of the Bene Gesserit school. You know, like in the pamphlet they give you, like, here's the paths you could take in your career at the.

[Leo]

Benny Jesuit Sisterhood School, the RPG skill tree.

[Abu]

Yeah, I would love to. I don't think this exists out there. I don't think it exists in the encyclopedia. But to see just like what training and what skills are involved and what growth paths and specializations you can go down in the sisterhood, it's nerdy stuff. I mean it's very like Jedi adjacent, you know. Like, this is why I love Jedi stuff, because it's very cool to see the different ways that the powers are utilized and specialized in among all the different candidates. Okay folks, well, as usual, we've gone longer than we wanted to. It is Thanksgiving, so we're going to wrap it up there. Thank you for everyone for hanging out so long with us. This was such a blast. Hopefully we will catch all of you next week as well for the next live stream about episode three. So as a reminder, our episode three live discord hangout will happen Sunday night at 9:00pm Eastern for episode three. And then the very next day our deep Dive analysis and review of Episode three will go up on all podcast feeds and Patreon feeds Monday morning and then next Thursday we will be back here on YouTube for another live Q and A to hang out with y'all and chat about Episode three. But that's it for today. Let's hit a quick outro here to wrap up this episode and then we'll say goodbye and go stuff our faces with food. Now folks, before we let you go, a couple of very quick reminders on how to support the show and keep in touch with us. The two best ways to support us is to become a patron. Patreon.com Gom Jabbar AD Free episodes, bonus content, behind the scenes stuff. A lot of goodies over there. You can also check out our Dune themed swag on our merch store gomjabbbbbarshop.com all of those links will be in the show notes below for you to check out.

[Leo]

Also, we love to hear from you, so email us gomjobarpodcastmail.com Best way to get in contact with us. We respond in one to three business years and ultimately love to see your questions, your comments, your concerns, your hopes, your dreams, cute pictures of your pets, your favorite species of bird, whatever it is. Send us your thoughts. You can also join our Discord. You can also show your support for what we do here with a one time financial donation. We have a buymeacoffee.com link. That link is in show notes as well. If you have subscription fatigue and you just want to let us know that you like what we do.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

All right, friends. Thanks for hanging out. Wait. Cybrid. Gola. May your knife not chip and shatter while carving turkey. Excellent, excellent, excellent.

[Abu]

That's a wonderful note. To end today's episode on. Happy Thanksgiving, y'all. For the folks that are celebrating. Hope you enjoy. Hope you have a lovely, restful holiday and spend some great time with people that you love. Thank you for hanging out with us. We will see you on the next episode.

[Leo]

Take care, folks.

[Abu]

Bye.