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- [00:00]
Leo
Yeah. Do you want to do the intro?
- [00:01]
Abu
Yes, I can do the intro today. All right, bear with us for a second, folks, before we get into the questions.
- [00:07]
Leo
You've heard this before.
- [00:08]
Abu
You've heard it ideally before. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.
- [00:43]
Leo
My name is Leo.
- [00:44]
Abu
And Leo, we're back for another bonus live episode, answering your questions, dear listener, about Dune Prophecy, episode three.
- [00:53]
Leo
Yeah, very exciting. I think this episode, it's so funny to see. And the last few days we were very positive about the show, about this episode in particular. We were like, let's go.
- [01:04]
Abu
It's great, for sure.
- [01:05]
Leo
But then some of the commentary online, people are still not feeling it's divided.
- [01:09]
Abu
It's divided, for sure.
- [01:10]
Leo
It's divided. Yeah. But, you know, ultimately I think more Dune is good. Dune, we can all agree, and we are getting more Dune, even if it's not exactly the Dune we want. So we're going to go through questions now. Quick, shout out the spoiler warning for today. There will be spoilers for Dune prophecy, so make sure you've seen all three of the first three episodes. Make sure you, if you don't want spoilers for Sisterhood of Dune, today more than ever, the spoiler warning for that book because there's a lot of flashback stuff, the book by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, and of course, spoiler warning for ideally up to our current page on the book club. We are very good about not saying any anything past the page in Heretics of Dune that we're on for our Heretics of Dune Book Club. We won't be delving too much into that plot, but just best to be safe.
- [02:07]
Abu
Yes, best to be safe. Make sure you're caught up on the Heretics of Dune Book Club, whatever is out there on the public feed at the moment, wherever we happen to be. Also, a quick reminder before we get into it that if you are listening to this audio, this podcast episode after the fact, you too can participate in these live streams every Thursday at 11am Eastern on the Lore Party YouTube channel so that we can answer your questions and throw up your comments on screen and shout you out, folks, that's what we're here to do on these streams. So link in the show notes as always and we hope you can join us for one of these Thursday streams. About prophecy.
- [02:49]
Leo
Yeah, it's super fun. Reminds me, I actually streamed on Twitch for a little bit and it was so much fun just to like have that sort of conversation with people. You really get to know the personality of people on the other side of the Internet too, which is fun.
- [03:02]
Abu
Yeah, it's cool. Always fun. Okay, I see folks are already chatting here in the. In the live chat. Let's throw some things up here. Vento says hello from Holland where it's cold and wet.
- [03:18]
Leo
Thank you for clarifying Pinto that Holland is in the eu. Like Holland. What? Although actually I got. We were doing categories over Thanksgiving with my family and we was countries that start with H and I said Holland and Holland is not a country, it's a region of the Netherlands.
- [03:39]
Abu
I didn't know that.
- [03:41]
Leo
Yeah. So for H I was like country Holland. So Vento, I was thinking of you probably. And no, I got that wrong because it's a region in the Netherlands.
- [03:54]
Abu
So I was the more you know.
- [03:55]
Leo
Anyway, that's good to know for any.
- [03:57]
Abu
Future board gaming that I might be doing as well.
- [03:59]
Leo
Yeah, true.
- [04:00]
Abu
Oh, here, by the way, Philip wants to know. I'll throw it up on screen. What's your twitch, Leo? Philip asks.
- [04:04]
Leo
I think it was literally just same as everything. It's at Leo Wiggins Void. I. Yep. I haven't streamed it in a long time, but when Dune Awakening is out, that'll probably be the place where I stream my playing of it. Yeah. So you know, whatever. I again, I don't really use it anymore, but yeah.
- [04:25]
Abu
Okay. We have some questions in chat. Do we want to start digging into some of these? I see this great one from Jillian and I think this is kind of the big one that a lot of folks are talking about online. Jillian says, is Lila the key to the reckoning? Twice born, once in blood and once in Spice. I can't help but think she will be instrumental in taking down evil. Desmond, what do you think, Leo?
- [04:49]
Leo
Yeah, man. I'm embarrassed that I hadn't even considered that. And the first time I saw it was Takako's comment in the Discord. The idea that Lila is the one born twice now that she's in this like back to Tank. So it's possible for sure. I think you and I have both been leaning the Desmond seems very heavily, like too heavily indicated as the key to the reckoning. So then Lila would be the kind of natural alternative. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe the whole point of this show is that prophecy is misleading and we can't trust any of our instincts. Like maybe the key to the reckoning is something else entirely. And it'll be like decoy after decoy. It's certainly possible. It's certainly possible, yeah. What about you? Do you have strong feelings about this?
- [05:38]
Abu
I. Yeah. You know, I feel exactly the same as you do. I think you put it really well. Decoy after decoy. Right. Is it Leto, too? Is it Paul Atreides? Is it Lila? Is it Desmond? Is it Omnius, the Overmind? Like, we don't know. I think. And the show intentionally is leading us down many different theory rabbit holes. I think Lila just happens to be the most recent theory rabbit hole when it comes to Lila. I do not think Lila will be a part of this prophecy. In particular, I do think Lila is our very first abomination. And this is now the sisterhood's first clash with the idea that other memories can be so dangerous they might take you over. This is maybe the inception of their fear, their 10,000 year fear of abomination.
- [06:32]
Leo
Yeah, the. The idea. I mean, the fact that Dorotea took over her body for a moment, and that was the last time that she was, like, moving inanimate, and now she's in this tank. That is gonna restore her mind. But restore her mind to what? The moment before her death when Dorotea was controlling her.
- [06:53]
Abu
Yeah. Right.
- [06:55]
Leo
I mean, it real. Real risky, that. So, yeah, I. I think there's a lot of really important things that can happen. Again, we're only at the halfway point. A lot of things can kind of sift out of the chaff, I guess people will say and. And it. And we'll see. We'll just have to see. I love that, though. It isn't obvious, and I love that people are having these conversations. And it's fun. It's fun to kind of speculate together.
- [07:24]
Abu
I agree.
- [07:24]
Leo
This is the joy of weekly episodes. Thank you, hbo, for doing weekly episodes.
- [07:30]
Abu
Imagine if this was a bin drop. We could not have gotten so many episodes out of it, honestly. And it would have been so much work for us to prep six episodes in advance.
- [07:39]
Leo
Yeah.
- [07:40]
Abu
Before I get to Philip's question, I do see Philip's question. I have another pre prepped one that kind of, I think, perhaps connects. So let me throw something up real quick. This is actually a correction that we need to make because in episode three, I was adamant that that young boy was potentially young Kieran Atreides.
- [08:00]
Leo
Oh, yeah.
- [08:01]
Abu
And I do want to throw this correction up because people fact checked me on this one, and I was completely Wrong. And in fact, I want to shout out one of our patrons, Benjamin Danter, who, in Discord said young Kieran, quote unquote. That little boy is named Albert in the IMDb cast list, so I doubt he's Kieran. Curious how that character will play out, though. So it's actually Albert Atreides he's named. And I was wrong about that theory, so wanted to correct the record there. And thank you to Benjamin and other folks for calling that out, too.
- [08:34]
Leo
Hey, well, credit where credit's due. The timeline kind of seemed like it could have worked. And although I guess. I guess Kieran is pretty young. The point is, I think it's worth noting that we see the episodes before the IMDb page is updated with, like, the most recent episodes cast stuff. So just so everybody knows it's not. Because we're not checking those things. We often record those episodes before there's any information out there about that stuff. But, yeah, Albert. Okay. Albert. Oh, my God, is it snowing?
- [09:07]
Abu
It is kind of, like, flurrying out there, too, in New York. Yeah, it's a gold one. It's a golden, windy one.
- [09:12]
Leo
I told you it is not even.
- [09:16]
Abu
Okay, so while we're on the topic of the Atreides, I'm gonna throw up Phillips question because it's related. Philip asks, why does it seem like there are so many Atreides? Are they more of a clan than a family? It's a lot of. It's a lot of people on that hunt.
- [09:30]
Leo
Yeah, you know, there's a few possibilities. First, it's worth noting that in the Brian Herbert lore, Vorian Atreides, who's kind of like the main dude, the main Atreides, he travels around for hundreds of years and just, like, makes families on planet. So he, like, had a family on Caladan that he had to leave for XYZ reasons. And then he had a family on Kepler, and those families that he kind of seeds are Atreides. And even when he goes to Caladan, he's like, wow, this whole village has quite a few people who look like me. This. I wonder how many of them are related to me. And so there is this, like. He's kind of the fucking horny hot planter who's putting out these trading seeds around the galaxy. Yeah, I know. Yeah. The other thing to note is that, like, a family will be the sort of, like, focal point of a village or a town, but then there are, like, vassals and other people who might not be directly Atreides. So I suspect that hunting party was not 100% Atreides.
- [10:35]
Abu
I agree.
- [10:36]
Leo
I think it was probably like 50% Atreides, 60% of tradies, and then like family, friends, and little minor houses or smaller groups.
- [10:44]
Abu
That kind of attendance.
- [10:47]
Leo
Yeah, you know, just people hanging out. You're the whole village. You're going on a bull hunt. Hot dog. Sign me up. Right.
- [10:53]
Abu
Sure.
- [10:53]
Leo
Hope the soup's good. You know, like, that's. I think that's the. That's the key. But generally, yeah, like family, it sort of ignores the fact that for sure, when you have something like a war hero named Vorian Atreides, I think people are going to be opting. Like, if I was a guy marrying into the Atreides family, I wouldn't be like, no, no, you're taking my name, babe. I'd be like, can I be Leo Atreides? Hot dog, I'm taking your name. You know?
- [11:21]
Abu
Yeah, I agree. I don't think. I don't think that whole group was Atreides. That was just a core of Atreides and plus their attendants and assistants and friends and whoever. Plus ones. Okay, Mr. Havoc has a question up next. How do you two feel about the inclusion of the thinking Machine at the end of episode three? Did it meet your expectations? Did it match your expectations?
- [11:47]
Leo
What do you think? Kick it off.
- [11:50]
Abu
It did match my expectations, because that is canonically correct.
- [11:57]
Leo
Sure.
- [11:57]
Abu
According to both Brian Herbert's Sisterhood of Dune, the prequel books, and actually according to Frank Herbert lore, we get confirmation of this in Heretics for people who are reading along on the book club. They know. So sorry about that construction noise. The. The sisterhood has been using illegal butlerian, illegal technology, thinking machines for their breeding program since the beginning. And that's been a top secret thing among. Within the sisterhood for tens of thousands, you know, 10,000 plus years.
- [12:30]
Leo
Yeah.
- [12:30]
Abu
So I actually expected for this AI computer breeding room reveal to come ever since episode one, when they teased it.
- [12:42]
Leo
Yeah, you know, I knew it was going to be something like this. It didn't really surprise me. And ultimately, although I kind of assume that the Bene Gesserit computer systems are just computers, and that's. That's how far the Dune universe has kind of regressed technologically. That, like, a fucking Dell would be a crazy crime that you committed just by having a Dell. So on some level, I think they did a really good job of making it feel like this huge leap in technology. Like, yes, we have the flying cars, yes, we have the little whatever, but the robo gecko and this room feel very similar in their, like, oh, this is sci fi shit. Like, this is proper sci fi stuff. And I think that that's good. I do also concede that my vision of them using just like computers like Adele or like a. I don't know, whatever. I shouldn't keep saying Dell, a MacBook, whatever.
- [13:40]
Abu
Like a MacBook from when we were kids.
- [13:42]
Leo
This colorful. Yeah. Oh, they're so swee. Yeah. So like the imac. I concede that like Frank Herbert's description of the butler and J. Hod was machines that enslave through complacency and through ease. That is probably not imax. He probably wasn't thinking imax. It was probably something a little bit more like these fully autonomous artificial intelligences that can make decisions for us and litigate for us and do all these things for us. That is probably much closer to what Frank Herbert intended as he left all of these details about the Butlerian Jihad pretty vague. So I think it's good. I think it's fine. I think it's being named Anarole is interesting and we'll see how that shakes out. I mean this is the named after the head of the Bene Gesserit. Feels very implicative. Like there's no plausible deniability where you're going, what is this named? Oh, it's named the founder of your order. No. Good. Order's gone. If it were just like named something else, like let's say it was named like Carino Alpha, then you'd be like, oh, well played. You named it after the Seating House. Are they implicated? Oh my God, scandal. Instead you're just like the founder of the Penny Jesuit. Sweet, nice and subtle. I don't know, I think the naming.
- [15:00]
Abu
Is a little clunky, but Mentat 1 2, 31 has a good follow up comment here. Mentat says, I didn't expect it to be an AI Even having read Sisterhood and Heretics, I thought it would just be computers. That it has a personality and can, for example, question Tula's decision shocked me. That's a good point.
- [15:21]
Leo
Yeah, but that's also where I think even in Frank Herbert's lore, the danger of the computers and the initially outlawed computers were of thousands of years from now. Right. Like we're not talking about our familiar technologies, although our familiar technologies also get wrapped up in the Butlerian fervor. So part of me thinks if the Bene Gesserit had systems pre Butler and Jihad that they maintained in secret, it would be futuristic shit. Right? Because this is still 10,000, 15,000 years in the future. So I'm right there with you. Mintat 1 2, 3 1. But I think that is something that I'm realizing. Oh, maybe I just assumed it was also old fashioned technology because everything's so analog in the Dune universe. And in fact, if something survived the butler in Jihad because it was stored away in secret in sisterhood and heretics, they talk about these boxes that they store away and they hide away. So then it's like, okay, these are contained within like totes, like traveling totes. But that doesn't. I mean again, just because I was picturing Dell computers doesn't mean that they were Dell computers. So anyway, I'm right there with you for sure. But I'm also in retrospect, I'm going, oh yeah, maybe it would be way more futuristic than I initially thought.
- [16:43]
Abu
Right. It is very far in the future. Like Dell computers are fucking ancient to us now in 2024.
- [16:51]
Leo
Yeah.
- [16:51]
Abu
So to be fair, there is pre boat layering Jihad. There would have been very advanced technology, things like AI and holograms and all the usual Star Trek y sci fi shit that we're used to. So for it to exist here didn't feel out of place to me. And I think that question has always sort of been elusive in the Dune universe. Like where is the line of Butlerian jihad? What crosses the line? What doesn't? Everyone's kind of crossing the line Anyway. Some things are allowed, some things are fuzzy. And so that has always been elusive because Frank never bothered to really hone in on what that meant. You know, technology was more of a philosophical concept for Frank Herbert to explore and less an actual like this iPad is not allowed sort of thing.
- [17:39]
Leo
Yeah, it's again, it was vague because it's not the point. The point isn't the SIMEC robot. Stompy stompy robots. The point is machine attitude and men that are pro machines. And it's, it's always been a battle of humanity. Yeah. Now I see a comment from Dennis Christos. Did either of us catch that an uncredited Polly Walker played Valia and Tula's mother in episode three? I did not catch that and I don't know who that is.
- [18:13]
Abu
Yes.
- [18:14]
Leo
So I looked up, I looked up Polly Walker on IMDb. I guess people know her perhaps from Bridgerton. She's in Bridgerton.
- [18:23]
Abu
I haven't seen Bridgerton.
- [18:23]
Leo
She was. I hear it's great. I think my fiance watches it. Yeah, she's Sonja Harkonnen in the Dune Prophecy. Series. Do. Do people know her from Bridgerton? Or do they know her from the 2012 hit movie John Carter? I mean, there's other things, but I think it's funny that she was in John Carter. Oh, maybe Psych. Psych is pretty well received. She was in Psych.
- [18:50]
Abu
Yeah, that's true.
- [18:51]
Leo
And Rome. Anyway, cool. Oh, and the Walk. No Waking the Dead. I read Walking Dead. Anyway, cool. Didn't know that. Polly Walker Shout out to her.
- [18:59]
Abu
Thanks for calling that out. I have another question here that I think also pairs with one that had pre prepped. So let me throw up the pre prepared question and then I'm going to Throw up Mentu Mentat123's Connect question here because they're connected on Reddit. I had found a question that I think opens up an interesting dialogue. Me too. 77432 asked why is Dune prophecy only six episodes? And then related to that in our comments today. Mentat1231 says shows used to be given a lot more time and leeway to get good. Try watching Star Trek Next Generation's first season or the first season of New who give it a chance, especially after this third episode. Thoughts on the episode count?
- [19:44]
Leo
Leo yeah, so I have kind of a couple thoughts about that because on one hand I think a movie format or like a mini series format of 2, 3 episodes is not an undoable format and I think you can just get right in and be excellent from top to bottom. Like, you know, Last of Us was miraculous. That show was so good and they really hit the ground running and did it all within a very like tight time frame and didn't have, you know, 24 episodes or you know, some of these longer serialized products. So on some level I'm like, I don't think there's any kind of problem with the number of episodes and ultimately I think six really strong, tight lean episodes would be welcome and would be awesome and I think are great. I think you and I have already had some feelings about like how episode two was paced and how episode three then is finally giving us a lot more of these emotional stakes that lend value to what we see in episode two and then maybe is better on a rewatch but need it have been that way, maybe it would have been better to reverse it, blah blah blah. The point is I think six episodes is fine. I don't think there's any problem with that. And although it is a more of a challenge because you're giving yourself like telling this big of a story with this Many characters and this many moving pieces in only six hours of runtime is, is hard for how many characters you've introduced and how many plot lines there are. Yeah, but it's not undoable. And it's possible, like the Brian Herbert book, which also introduces like five or six different plot lines, it's possible that they are doing enough, like they'll resolve enough in the final episode that they can. That people will feel satisfied and there will still be some floating questions that people can be excited about in a season two. Because I also recognize it's important in some of these pitch meetings to have what are we going to talk about next episode and if next season, right, like, is there still interest? Do we have ideas? And if the dumb board members who are writing yes or no on the the do we fund this questionnaire have seen what you've made and are also wondering about some things that might be an easier sell if there are some of those floating questions. I don't know how any of this fucking works, but still, that's kind of the feeling I get.
- [22:13]
Abu
Yeah, well, typically you, you don't pitch one season of a show to like an HBO or a Netflix. You pitch an outline of an entire story, however many seasons you think that will take. So there has to be a plan for a larger multi season arc of a story to be told and how that's broken down and you have to present an outline and pitch all of that and go through that whole process for sure.
- [22:39]
Leo
As a fun fact though, did you ever watch the Avatar cartoon?
- [22:44]
Abu
No.
- [22:45]
Leo
So Avatar is just an excellent thing. It's three really awesome seasons. And then Korra came along, the kind of sequel season series. And Korra was approved season by season. And so it suffered for it because as an art form, it lacks what you're talking about. It lacks that like cohesive, overarching, like narrative because they had to literally say, well, what story can we tell within these episodes as we like beg for funding for a second season? And so that is, as far as I know, that's pretty uncommon. So.
- [23:18]
Abu
Yeah.
- [23:19]
Leo
Okay.
- [23:20]
Abu
Well. And you're totally right, though. It's a tough balancing act, right, because you'll never know if you'll get renewed for another season.
- [23:27]
Leo
Right.
- [23:27]
Abu
So when you're in the writing room, are you going to lean into just getting everything into this season that you want to like as much of your story in now before you get canceled, or do you try and bank on future seasons to continue telling a wider, larger, more complex story? And that's a very That's a very difficult balancing act. Right you. Because you never know. Even if you did present, let's say, a five season plan to Netflix and they were like, yeah, cool, this sounds great. Let's go. Here's, here's enough money for one season. You never know if you're going to get the ax by season two and never get to finish telling your story. And so it's tough, you know. And I do think this show is banking a little too heavily on future seasons. It's setting up a lot of things that we clearly don't have enough time to like, close the loops on in just three more episodes. And you always want to be leaving certain doors for yourself open for future seasons and have plot lines that will continue across multiple seasons. But I think it's important to also recognize, like, we're in a media landscape where many shows never make it past a second season for various reasons. I saw in the comments, actually, whoops, I just threw up Takako's random comment for no reason. Hi, Tako, glad you're back.
- [24:53]
Leo
Welcome back.
- [24:55]
Abu
I saw in the comments Joshua had a great note here. Joshua says, I think this is a result of TV studios cutting costs after the bloat of the streaming wars and the mixed success of Disney Flood the Zone approach. Disney's Flood the Zone approach. So six episodes gives them proof of concept. And that's exactly it. Speaking on the industry side of it and less on the creative side of it, there was the 2000, 2007, 2008 writers strike that hurt a lot of TV at that time. That resulted in sort of truncated seasons. The rise of streaming has definitely encouraged shorter seasons because of the binge model. It's harder to binge a 22 episode season of Lost if it were all dropped at once, versus a eight episode season of Stranger Things in one weekend. You know, not that folks haven't tried. I've certainly tried to binge 22 episodes of Lost in one weekend. So it's certainly like, it's a result of streamers, it's a result of strikes, it's a result of budgets, it's a result of being afraid to take risks because it's becoming more expensive to make television. This show. We can even see, like, there's been a lot of money put in the production. Clearly the sets are gorgeous, the costuming is amazing. We've got a wonderful cast that we need to pay lots of money to. It is more expensive to make one episode of television. So you budget out for 6 versus committing to 22 which is a way bigger commitment to ask of a studio that's already in a streaming war that has, Joshua is saying, and fucking, like, hemorrhaging money left and right. So it is. It like, awfully just comes down to, like, business economics and money and stupid ass boring, like, like spreadsheet stuff that dictates a lot of the creativity, which is not an ideal world to live in, but it is a reality. You know, like, as a creative, you have to be like, I do live in a capitalist reality, and so my creativity has to work within these bounds. And so I have to aim for success given these limitations of budget, money, episode count, expectations of future seasons, etc. Etc.
- [27:13]
Leo
Now, the thought that comes to mind is kind of along the lines of what Takako just wrote, which is, like, with examples of the acolyte, which, despite its, like, fantastical elements, had a lot of story issues. I am so tired of companies spending hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising when the script is bad. Like, the number of times there have been, like, glaring plot issues or continuity issues or things that would be solved with just a couple of more drafts and a couple of more rewrites and a couple of more attention. Like, and then the number of things that are made that are excellent, and you look at all of the people who are involved with it, the filmmakers, the actors, the producers, the editors, and they all go, yeah, once I saw the script, I signed on because the script was so good and, like, a great script will do so much for you. And I think even, like, our complaints about, like, the Kieran Atreides scenes comes down to you needed, like, one extra person in the writers room to go, does this sound like CW to anybody else? And they go, oh, it does. How do we address that? Like, how do we. How do we pivot before you get into the burning piles of cash on this creative endeavor? Because ultimately, if the scaffolding is a little, like, iffy. But I think that's also where you look at the production timeline of this show back when it was called Dune Sisterhood. And there are people coming on and off. There's. There were probably elements that are there from the very beginning. And it's been sort of like Frankenstein monstered together. It's just so. It's so frustrating because, again, naturally, like, I think that's also going to affect the quality of the finished product. And, man, just give it a chance. Just give it money. It's Dune.
- [29:05]
Abu
It truly, like, HBO fucked up like, it's Dune, guys. Like, it's Dune, you know, Whatever the budget was, you could, you could have added a bit more on top of it. But you know, Zaslav's gonna. Zaslav Takako has another great comment here too that I love. A lot of people stopped watching Star wars and or after the first couple of episodes and it turned out, turned out to be one of the best things to come out of the franchise. I agree. And andor for what it's worth, wasn't in the modern day quite an extended season. I think it was 12 episodes for that first season and it was segmented into chapters of 3333.
- [29:45]
Leo
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:46]
Abu
Andor is one of the best Star wars properties to like literally come out of Star wars in decades. Also, fun fact, the least watched Star wars property on television still haven't seen it, statistically speaking, by like viewer count. So like the drop off was huge to Takako's point. And that again is a business reality is the way we measure TV nowadays is like watch time retention, like all of these like very short term measurements where the success has to be immediate, fast and hard. Like it has to be exponential and quick.
- [30:20]
Leo
Yeah.
- [30:20]
Abu
And if your show doesn't do that and the drop off is too intense, it's going to be tough getting renewed. I think Acolyte also had a very intense drop off from the first couple episodes and it didn't get renewed for season two. So it's just rough, you know, like you want art to have the freedom to do its thing, but we live in a reality that's much tougher and a media landscape that's quite brutal these days.
- [30:45]
Leo
Well, it's governed by like the financial bottom line that's being determined by people who don't necessarily have skin in the game creatively. And it's like, yeah, is it going to be profitable or not? It's like, God damn it, give it time. Because even like Dune was not published immediately on the premise and then it turned out to be this sci fi franchise that like, you know, obviously we're all here for a reason. Yeah.
- [31:08]
Abu
Yeah. Anyway, shall we do some more lore stuff? I could talk industry stuff all day. I mean, I cover the industry and it's like my job to do this. So it's like I have a lot.
- [31:17]
Leo
Of opinions and I have so many opinions from the acting perspective too.
- [31:20]
Abu
Let me pull up one of our questions that I'd looked up earlier. Let's see. Oh wait, here's a funny one that I just wanted to mention super quick. One of our patrons, Deathblade, said Quinn did not like episode three at all, yet Gom Jabbar is raving about it. I suggested Duel. We love Quinn. And a reminder folks, that in addition to this live stream, he streams on Tuesday nights to talk about the episode. And Leo and I will usually try to hop on and chat with Quinn and Alt Shift X and often Elaine from Nerd Cookies is there as well. So if you're bored on a Tuesday night at 8pm Eastern, we're typically streaming with Quinn. I was there yesterday, two nights ago talking to him about episode three as well.
- [32:01]
Leo
I always have rehearsals on Tuesday nights, so I can't do it, but it's fine, you know, it happens.
- [32:07]
Abu
Let me see another question we already talked about. Lila. I had one of those pulled earlier as well. Oh, here's one. One of our patrons, Matthias and Discord, was talking about the origin of the voice, something we discussed in our episode as well. A little bit different from the book, but still overall in line with kind of how Vali is the first person to come up with a voice. Matthias wants to know what makes Vali so special that nobody in the past has managed the same. Is she the Dragonborn from Skyrim? And he had a lot of other great thoughts too. He had a big long message in Discord about how he wasn't a big fan of this origin story for the voice and it wasn't really in line with Dune's Dune's themes. But what did you think about the voice and how it came to be?
- [32:53]
Leo
Well, it's just so much better than in the Brian Herbert book that like broadly I'm a fan of it because it's so much better than the seminal text. Like in the seminal text. It's more of like an intellectual curiosity. She it's worth noting that like what makes the voice possible is the sort of like Prana bendu control of of what you have going on in your in your vocal mechanism. It's observation of minutia. Like in Frank Herbert's lore, the voice is empowered by the fact that Bene Gesserit can look at someone and understand them very deeply, very quickly, and then can do stuff with their voice to be the thing, be the reason that the person does whatever they're going to do. I actually pushed back on someone on Reddit had said like I thought the no, no, this was on a TikTok comment. I was like the voice is not magic. You can't really there there are limits to what you can do with the voice. And someone said, didn't Jessica have a Harkonnen soldier stab himself in the ornithopter in. In the first book. And I'm like, no, no, she didn't. In fact, that is a master class in what the Voice is. Jessica knew that the guys were talking about if they wanted to, like, sleep with her before they throw her out to the worm. So she's like, guys, there's no reason to fight over me. And she said so in a way that they made her, as it says in the text, ultimately the most worthy thing to fight over ever. And then she's like. So she is pitching her voice. She understands what they want. And she goes, listen, there's, you know, no reason. And then when the guy's like, okay, now I'm going to kill Paul before I, like, hook up with you. And she's like, don't kill my son. I don't want to watch. I'm a mother who doesn't want to watch her son die. Is that so weird? And he's like, well, okay, yeah, I guess that's pretty reasonable. And so it's always. You're always guiding through this kind of truth and honesty, but it has to be empowered by, first, understanding the people, observation of minutia, and second, being able to work with your own mechanism so that you can be that thing that you need to be, whether it's like, the commanding mother or the sensuous seductress or whatever, or the liar, the deceiver. So the fact that the first person to master the Voice is a Bene Gesserit is not super surprising because their techniques lend to doing the Voice. The fact that Voli is the first is a little weird. And that just goes down to. Brian is, like, not that good of a writer. Or, like, world builder. I would. I think it's a much more reasonable thing to say. The Bene Gesserit, as and like millions of chains of women's lives, understand this quality of speech and have developed the ability incrementally over thousands of lives. That is a much more reasonable evolution of the voice. And it was not so much a. You either have fusto ra or you don't, but you have slowly gotten better at this thing. And they got so good at that thing, it needed a name. So at some point, someone said, okay, now we're going to be teaching you the voice. Capital T, capital V. And I think that is probably what Frank Herbert intended, especially because in his interviews in the 70s and 80s, he goes, we all use the Voice on each other all the time, right?
- [36:11]
Abu
Yeah, I Think I remember reading at one point, he was like, every mother has used the voice on her child.
- [36:16]
Leo
Yeah.
- [36:18]
Abu
You know that that is what the voice is. When your mom knows how to scare the pants off of you with the right tone of voice, you know, you.
- [36:26]
Leo
Know that slipper is already on route to your head. You're like, I sense danger.
- [36:35]
Abu
You know, God damn it. My mom's, like, throwing flippers, like, around corners somehow, you know, nailing me.
- [36:43]
Leo
It's that movie, Was that Wanted or what was that movie where they bend bullets?
- [36:48]
Abu
Oh, yes. Holy shit. Was so James McAvoy lateo to himself.
- [36:53]
Leo
Yeah. Oh, God. I think it was Wanted, right?
- [36:59]
Abu
What if I told you bullets didn't have to go in a straight line? Love it. Someone was like, I'm going to make a whole movie off this.
- [37:05]
Leo
That was. Anyway, yes, Julian.
- [37:09]
Abu
Julian says great, great examples of the voice, Leo. Yeah, I think you explained that really well. And I agree. And I will say I do agree with Matthias, though, like, in the full discord comment is longer. But Matthias's issue is, like, not necessarily with, like, does this adhere to Brian Canner? I think the more issue, the issue Matthias has is, like, even the Brian Cannon is dumb. Like, just this random girl discovers the Voice somehow. What makes her different from anyone else? Could anyone else in the universe have just randomly discovered the Voice? And I think what it is is, like, yes, to Frank's point. Like, every mother knows how to use the Voice on her child when she needs to. And I think what makes it a superpower then is that Valia discovered that with her brother and then also underwent sisterhood training and realized, oh, this thing that I can kind of do to people, I can hone further. I can craft this into an actual weapon. And then to answer another question in chat, Irene is asking, is the voice something anyone can learn? Yes, anyone in the sisterhood, yeah, can learn the Voice. And again, technically, anyone can use it too, with the right amount of training.
- [38:29]
Leo
I was going to say anyone out of the Sisterhood can also learn the voice, but it does take the prana bendu and the observation of minutia. But we also see, and again, avoiding spoilers for anybody who's not up to date with our heretics book club. But we see Teg very nearly use the Voice on the battlefield because this is a situation he understands. And he can compel people to retreat or get out on the ground or whatever without them ever thinking about disobeying there. He says, get down, and you get down. Because he knows how to pitch his voice and how to control his team on the battlefield. And so that's experience, that's control. He understands. If he was like, everyone, get down, please. Wouldn't work. You have to pay police. He'd have to. You have to pitch your voice. You know, you have to put your heart into it. So I think anyone can use the voice that, according to Frank Herbert lore, it's not something that's exclusive to Bene Gesserit, but you do have to understand Prana Bendu, which is a very Bene Gesserit thing to learn, and only they teach it. And you also have to be very attuned to minutia, which is also a. Pretty much Only the Bene Gesserit do that explicitly. Like, Mentats retain a lot of information, but we don't get a sense that they're trained in gathering information in the same way that the Bene Gesserit are.
- [39:52]
Abu
So, yeah, Matthias did say in his comment that one of the issues was that in the show in particular, Valli just kind of like, has the voice fully baked. We don't get a sense that she has. She discovered a thing and then spent years honing it, training it, crafting it into a useful tool, which I believe in the book, that is what she does. You know, she spends years kind of.
- [40:13]
Leo
Kind of, kind of. And again, this might be where I'm wrong, because I'm reading mentats, I'm like 80% of the way through Mentats of Dune, but as far as I know, in Mentats of Dune, she just says, like, she. She's with some acolytes in a cave and she goes crawl in there, like, get the thing or whatever, and the person crawls in and it's like, ah. Oh, God, why am I moving? You know? And Valia thinks to herself, she had, like, started figuring this out and. Good, I'll have to keep experimenting with this later, you know, as she's kind of smirking and that whole sequence kind of comes out of nowhere, because I don't think she uses the voice at any point in Sisterhood of Dune. I think this is purely in Mentats. And then in Mentats, we see her use it two more times, once just randomly on a. On a Gynasian Swordmaster, and then on Dorotea. Oh, actually she tries to use it on Raquela as well. So we see her use it, but again, it's kind of just introduced as, like, I think I figured out a fucking wizard trick. Let's see if this wizard trick works. You know, she learned alohomora and now she just has it and it's like, okay, yeah, which.
- [41:22]
Abu
That's a criticism from Matthias that I completely agree with. You know, such a power, powerful ability shouldn't just randomly manifest in a child and should be something that volley. We should have seen Valia use and fail with and, like, retool into an actual weapon and not just have, like, this superpower. A lot of folks in the chat are begging me to watch Avatar and you to watch Andor, so it looks like we have.
- [41:53]
Leo
I promise to watch Andor at some point, and I will say the only reason I didn't. I started watching it, but it was during a period where I had to, like, watch and also work on stuff. And I was like, halfway through the first episode and I was like, I am not retaining anything, and I know that this show deserves more of my attention, so I will watch it. It'll probably be the next thing I watch.
- [42:14]
Abu
Yeah, I've been saying I'll watch avatar for, like, 15 years, and I haven't gotten around to it, but I.
- [42:19]
Leo
It's really good.
- [42:20]
Abu
I will eventually.
- [42:22]
Leo
And if you. If you go into Korra with the right expectations. Korra is one of the most incredible, like, master. Master classes in, like, how to deal with trauma and how, like, trauma can manifest in the body. And, like, it's. It's like such an incredibly sensitive show. And I watched it the first time and was like, okay, this is cool. Watched it again in my 30s, was crying. Every other episode was just like, oh, my God, this is great. So anyway, I'm a huge fan of Korra. I know people. It's a little bit more divisive, but, yeah, cool.
- [42:51]
Abu
I have another question. Prepped?
- [42:53]
Leo
Yeah, please.
- [42:54]
Abu
All right. Another question I wanted to pull up is specifically about the agony. I believe this was on Reddit. User Sula asked. I thought after the agony, the mothers get the eyes of the bad. Also, if the memories they get only last up till conception, does that mean that their memories lack the wisdom of later years? So sort of a twofold question here about the agony process.
- [43:20]
Leo
I love that because it does kind of immediately key into one of the weaknesses of other memory, which is that you just don't have. So it's like, why are the Bene Gesserit even awoken reverend mothers still kind of, like, ambitious and kind of naive in some ways? And it's like, well, yeah, because they only inherited memories from people up to the point of conception. I've seen some discussion around this. And so I kind of will inadvertently be parroting some of it. But it's worth noting that you can basically give people your memories in a couple of different ways. There is the memory dump that Sister Ramallo does with Jessica in the first Dune, where. Where Ramallo just literally says, okay, every Reverend Mother chained. Reverend Mother has, like, given me their memories, and now I'm giving you mine as well as theirs. And that's what Jessica gets in the first book. And then there's the. Like, I have memories of my genetic ancestors up until the point of conception each time. And that's what Alia is born with, for instance. And she can remember back on. What was the planet it was like back on, not poor Trin Harmon Thep. Maybe it was like she remembered the child crying on the planet. Anyway, yeah. So that is other memories. Now, the eyes of a bad are only because of spice addiction. And you can have the eyes of a bad even without going through the agony. That's just daily consumption of something like 5 or 6 milligrams of spice a day is enough to make you spice addicted. And heavily spice addicted people have the eyes of a bad. So I think in Villeneuve's films, it's just a visual cue to be like, hey, this person is now awoken. But in. Yeah, in the. In like Frank lore, eyes of a batter are just to do with spice and has nothing really to do with awakening. Although I guess the concept is when you go through these spice agony in particular, it's such a jolt of spice essence, it's such a. An amount that it just immediately. You are now an ibadi.
- [45:19]
Abu
Right. But the technicality here is that this is a prequel and they're not undergoing a spice agony, they're undergoing a rosic poison agony. So, yeah, in this show, I think it's fine for mothers not to have blue eyes. They aren't using spice for the agony yet. That doesn't happen until later.
- [45:36]
Leo
Right. So hopefully that helps. Good question, Sula. Now I see. Yeah. Let's talk about the choam question.
- [45:47]
Abu
Yes.
- [45:48]
Leo
So Philip says, going off my last question, I always found Chome and Landsraad really confusing. Would appreciate if you guys could explain it a little more for me. And starting there, I. I thought you and this was. This is going back to 2020 in our earliest episodes. You explained it really well, and I think it still sticks with me, your explanation. So I'd say if you want to take a crack at it, no pressure, 2024, going back seven years ago, 10,000 years.
- [46:24]
Abu
I don't remember how I explained it. Do you? Do you remember how I explained it? We did do an episode about Chome. For what it's worth, if you scroll far back enough in the feed, there's definitely an episode about Chome.
- [46:37]
Leo
I. I think the way you explained it was like using the US Branches of government where it's like the Chome is just the financial wing of the government that, like, prints the money and, like, does the financial stuff. It's the banking systems. And then the Landsraad is like the UN or like Congress, you know, it's like. Or it's like the. The people coming together to make decisions. Something like that got you along those lines. But yeah, yeah, I mean, pretty good.
- [47:04]
Abu
Way of thinking about it, for sure, I guess. Yes. Like, Chome is like the stock, the Imperial stock Market. Ish. It's the economic body that controls commerce within the Imperium. And so if you are, for example, House Harkonnen and you have Whalefur that you want to sell and trade, you will sell and trade that through Chome deals. And CHOAM will help you distribute and sell. And obviously they'll take a cut. They will help you negotiate deals with the Guild to get shipments to and fro. You know, like, CHOAM is just sort of the economic intermediary for all commerce within the Imperium, for sure. And then the Landsraad is the major governing body. So I would actually make that. Make that. What's a good compare, Real world comparison, I guess. Like the Landsraad is your. Is your Senate of Great Houses. And then, I suppose, yeah, Congress or Senate or Parliament, something along those lines. But it's a collection of the powerful houses within the Imperium that counterbalance the singular, more concentrated power of House Corino and the Emperor. So you have the Emperor, Emperor's weight on one side, like emperors over here in the Executive Branch, in the White House. And then you have Landsraad in the legislative branch, counterbalancing that. And then, yeah, you have sort of the sisterhood slithering all throughout those institutions influencing both. You have Chome overlooking the economics. You have the Space and Guild holding everything together with transportation.
- [48:50]
Leo
Yeah. Now, Takako shared an interesting quote there. In a 1980 article, Herbert equated CHOAM with OPEC, the real world Intergovernmental Organization, which is a major power in the petroleum industry, which is great insight. Again, Frank very much was drawing from real world powers and analogies. It is also worth noting to Julian's message that Spice is the major commodity of choam. But there are others too. Like whale fur, which is its first reference in Dune is basically Duke Leto telling, I guess. Paul, I think Paul, if I recall correctly, all of the things that CHOAM basically manages. And like you said earlier, Abu, it's like, hey, if you have whale furniture, you go to the combine Hanet over Advancer Mercantiles Chome, you go to them and you say, hey, I've got this thing, can you distribute it? Can you sell it like or what's it worth? And blah, blah, blah. So they are, you know, there is a directorship, there is a choam, you know, it's a. It's a power, it's a group.
- [49:58]
Abu
Yeah, I do like last comment though, that we wanted to shout out earlier, last says, I feel like CHOAM was introduced as something very important but never really played a big part in the stories. I can't even remember a single representative character appearing in any of the books, which I believe is true, at least in the Frank books.
- [50:16]
Leo
I don't remember any characters appearing either. But I think that's also kind of the point, right. Like it is a massively influential piece of the economics of the universe, but never really comes to the forefront because economics are kind of follow the trends of the governing forces. And if their primary resource is spice, you know, that is beholden to the production and the distribution of spice. It's not first supply and demand and then production. Like production is a piece of the supply and demand. So it's like we are watching the characters who are upsetting these status quos and we're so. I don't know, I kind of like that you have this whole banking system and this pretty like interesting analogy to OPEC and to the way that the things work in the world. And then we never see it because at the end of the day when you have like tyrants arresting power for thousands of years, the focus is kind of the tyrant and not as much the. Yeah, the other forces. And I will say also that we see in Mentats of Dune, we see private citizens who control too much economic power, then coming to a head with those in power with the Corrinos. And it's interesting then to see, okay, a little bit more directly we have Venport, Joseph Venport, going head to head against Salvador Corrino. And what does that look like and why? And a lot of that comes down to when economics are directly opposed to say the president or say the emperor. How does that shake out? So that is kind of addressed a little bit in Brian's books, but in Frank's books. No, it's all background stuff.
- [52:03]
Abu
Yeah, I think that's a good point though. It never plays a direct on stage role in Frank's stories. Just one of the many world building aspects that again, I think to Takako's point was very much just again, Frank making a comment on the political and socioeconomic times that he lived in.
- [52:28]
Leo
Yeah. Now getting back a little bit to other memory. I like this question from mentat1231 that they just asked to the question about only remembering up to the point of conception. Is it just a mistake on the part of the writers of Dune prophecy that Dorothea in other memory remembers being killed? And that is not a mistake on the part of the writers of Dune prophecy. That is a change in the canonicity by Brian Herbert. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson in their prequel books have very much changed the way other memory works. They break all of the rules and they do things that would change, change everything in Dune in a way that breaks everything. So that is them being beholden to added to the list. And in fact, as an example of something that happens in Sisterhood of Dune, when Dorothea awakens as a Reverend Mother, Raela first learns of her awakening via other memory. If I'm, if I'm remembering correctly, it's like a live ping of oh, look, things have changed. So they are getting, it's. Yeah, it's chaos. And even Dorothea discovers that they are using computers through other memory because she gets Raquel as memories of using the computers. But that assumes that she was using the computers before she conceived her grand, her daughter and her granddaughter, which is possible, but they never make that clear. So the rules that are established by Frank and the Dune Encyclopedia are out the window. Brian's world is chaotic and it's kind of just a MacGuffin at this point. Yeah, yeah, it's nuts. So, yeah, not a mistake on the part of the writers. I am so ultimately sympathetic to anybody working on anything Dune these days because you just have to be. As we talked about in the episode that came out yesterday, Jordan was saying, you know, it's. It's a sandbox. You're playing with the sand. And then after we were done recording, we were talking about how even if you got it 100% right from Frank's floor, you would be doing so creating enemies of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson who are currently in charge of the Brian Herbert estate or the Frank Herbert estate, whatever. And then if you do it perfectly for Brian Herbert you're going to make all the Frank fans mad. So I'm like, yeah, it sucks. It's kind of a lose, lose situation. If you got everything exactly right, you still have to decide what right is. And there's going to be a group of people who yell at you regardless of what you do. So for sure.
- [55:04]
Abu
Anyway, Philip is also shouting you out. Leo is a saint for deciphering all this madness for us. Lol. For diving into those Brian books and.
- [55:12]
Leo
Trying to explain it to us, you know. Yeah. I'm not so saintly. I'm not so saintly because I've now taken to skipping a couple of pages every few paragraphs of the Brian books because they're so, so fluffy. Like, you'll just have like two pages of just someone going, well, that reminds me of this thing that won't ever matter. And then they talk for a bit about that and it's just describing. It's awful. So you're welcome. And I'll keep reading them. That's fine. And we will talk about them again. We have a Sisterhood of Dune episode scheduled or planned, you know, so we'll talk about them.
- [55:56]
Abu
Yeah.
- [55:57]
Leo
And we'll celebrate the things that are good about them. There is something kind of fun and pulpy about them, but they are just like pulp. Sci fi.
- [56:04]
Abu
Yeah. Okay. Folks are talking about the Atreides hunt and I actually had a question prepped for that that I found online. User questionabletaste009. I like that name. Asked. I had the oppression. It was said that all the Atreides at the hunt were killed, but didn't catch anything that implied all the tradies were at the hunt. And this is just like one sentence of a larger question. But basically they're asking, like, did Tula kill every Atreides in existence at that hunt? I'm confused.
- [56:34]
Leo
Yeah, yeah. Great question. And is confusing. And no, she didn't. There are other Atreides. Yeah. Even in Brian's books. There's Atreides on Kepler. There's Atreides elsewhere. Because Vorian Atreides is out there. He's just everywhere. And so he looks like he's in his 30s. He's 200 years old. And he's still so in his prime. There you go.
- [56:59]
Abu
Always.
- [57:00]
Leo
He's still in. He's permanently in his prime. General Agamemnon Hagamemnon of the Simex was like, I will make you the most man forever. And that's Voran Atreides.
- [57:13]
Abu
Yeah. I had the same. You know, I had Some people ask me this this week, whether Tulip murked every single Atreides. And no, that wouldn't make sense story wise, considering there's still Atreides 10,000 years down the line. And I think this was just a hunt. It was a group of Atreides, just boys being boys. Body paint, dancing fires, bull hunting. You know, it was. And it wasn't every Atreides. And in fact, I don't know. I can't remember exactly. Did we even see. See outside of Tula, did we see any women? Any other, like, female Atreides characters? I thought it was all just a bunch of guys. Maybe we saw some in the background. But, yeah, this seemed like a boy's hunting trip. And it certainly wasn't the whole Atreides family out at one time.
- [58:00]
Leo
Yeah, I mean, there's the one kid who survives. Right. Albert Atreides survived. Right. Kid with a leg brace. But yeah, no, it's. Yeah, just a group. Yeah, just a big old group.
- [58:12]
Abu
Matt Matthias here says Caladan, Burning Man. Love it. That's exactly what we witnessed. Tula, not a fan of Burning Man.
- [58:22]
Leo
I had a. My AP statistics teacher would go to Burning man pretty regularly, like 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And he said he watched someone chug some gasoline and then get hella backed out because he was like, dying from the poison of chugging gasoline. But it was just like, hey, that's a container of fluid. Let me drink it. And then it was like, that is gas. That is. And I think the guy survived, but it was like, yep. That's why. That's why Burning man was away for a while.
- [58:54]
Abu
Or, you know.
- [58:54]
Leo
Yeah, my AP science teachers were cool.
- [58:56]
Abu
Angie has a good comment here. Angie says it seemed that when Volley went home, her family was upset about the repercussions, as if the remaining Atreides were gearing up for an attack. So just more proof that there are more Atreides out there and that there's. There might be repercussions for this. This was definitely mass murder. We're not trying to minimize that. Like, oh, two lonely guild, like one guy, two guys. Who cares?
- [59:18]
Leo
You only killed.
- [59:18]
Abu
Yeah, definitely mass murder, but it was not a. A total extinction of the Atreides. So good call out, Angie.
- [59:27]
Leo
Counterpoint to that. Angie, though it is worth noting that, like, House Atreides is tied with Vorian Atreides, and they. They help their war heroes. This is a house that is very popular, basically, as long as the house has existed. And House Harkonnen is very unpopular, basically. As long as the house has existed. So the other possibility there is, even if, let's say it was 99.9% of Atreides and only that one kid survived, it would still be really bad politically for this disgraced, cowardly house to have killed all of these people in this popular house. And there are already rules about how warfare is supposed to be happening between houses and like, poisoning them at a hunting thing is not a good look. So I think. I think the father, Tula's father, and Valya's father is frustrated for quite a few reasons. Like, you know, we're trying to rebuild our house, and you go out here and you do this shady shit, killing off this popular house that's tied to a war hero. What the fuck are you doing? You know, and I think. I think you're right that, like, there's also the element of this just perpetuates the hatred between our houses. But I think it's also. This looks really bad and could invite retaliation on us from people who love House Atreides. And there are quite a few people who love House Atreides.
- [60:51]
Abu
Yeah.
- [60:52]
Leo
But, yeah, I think if with the presumption that there are remaining Atreides and they just know, oh, yeah, that Vorian Atreides was out fucking all the time, yeah, his family would probably take that pretty personally. And I think also, just like, the older, more mature people are like, let's fucking cut it out. You know? And even Tula after she does all of that, being like, would Griffin have wanted me to do that? Is a sign of her maturing out of this. Like, blood for blood is the way to solve stuff. Because again, Ori was the first person to present her with this way of moving past generational trauma. Yeah.
- [61:33]
Abu
Well, we should wrap it up. We're past the hour mark here, folks. Thank you so much for hanging out. If you have any final comments or questions, we can just rapid fire blast through anything you throw out there.
- [61:44]
Leo
True.
- [61:44]
Abu
But this was super fun. Thanks for hanging out with us. We only have three more of these to go. We're halfway through June prophecy. In fact, Leo and I are about to end this live stream, go grab some water, and then record episode four, because we've already seen it. So record our episode for next week. So, yeah, we. We only have three more episodes to go. I had seen a comment earlier that I forgot to highlight that maybe is a good closing, closing question. Someone had asked what we are hoping for in the latter half of the show. What are we hoping to see in the Next three episodes.
- [62:27]
Leo
This is also where it's hard to pretend not to have seen episode four.
- [62:31]
Abu
Yeah. Or maybe more broadly, like, where. Where the episode wraps up or. Yeah, we can be vague.
- [62:36]
Leo
You know, I think there's a lot of really good groundwork for some satisfying arcs. I think if the show really satisfyingly wraps up and, like, gives us a very satisfying complete arc for Valya and Tula, I will feel. I'll feel good about it. I'll feel pretty good about it. I think there are a lot of, like, auxiliary mysteries that I do want answers to but are less important than, like, I think episode three, the big takeaway is like, holy shit, this show works when it focuses on Valya and Tula. And so I think if it focuses on Valia and Tula successfully through the end of the series and we really get time with them. I was just talking to someone in my choir, and she said she's only seen episodes one and two, and she was like, I enjoyed episode two, but, man, I really miss spending time with Valya and Tula. And I was like, buckle up for episode three, then. Have fun. But I think that's. That's kind of my feeling. So episodes four, five, and six, if we get good time with Tula and Valya, we know those actresses can deliver on their lines and their scenes, so I think that's gonna be good. I really hope we don't get, like, Erasmus or Omnius. I really hope we don't get too much of the heavy, like, Cymex. I think if. If all of this turns out to be, like, Ixian thinking machines, it's gonna be really a bummer. I also don't want too much of those Sorceress of Rossic stuff, but, like, whatever. I don't know. I think you and I are slowly. Our resistance to all things Brian is slowly whittling away as we watch episode by episode, and. Yeah, you know, so it's fine. I think if we get a really satisfying emotional arc completed for Valya and Tula with maybe some floating mysteries that can be addressed in a second season, fingers crossed, then I'll be pretty satisfied. What about you?
- [64:44]
Abu
I feel the same. I feel like I want to see some forward momentum for Valia and Tula. Especially now after episode three, we have set up great emotional stakes and emotional development for these two characters. We understand them more deeply now. So when we flash forward back into the present timeline, we will know these characters more deeply, because now we've seen how they got here. And so I really need these Next three episodes to. For my own enjoyment, to really carry these emotional through lines forward. I think at this point, halfway through a season, we need to start answering questions, right? Like, we can't continue to dangle the carrot of what's going on with Desmond, what's going on with so and so, who's scheming here. Obviously, you got to keep some of the intrigue. I'm not saying I need all the answers in episode four, and then I need more answers in episode five, but I think we need to. The show needs to firmly plant its feet. It needs to find its footing and then start taking leaps forward in terms of its characters and its plot lines, you know, because the reality is, like, these first three episodes have still been setting things up for the viewer in many ways. Um, some of those setups have been great. Some of them. I've criticized the emotional stuff in three, of course, as we said on the episode, I think we both really loved really great stuff. But now it's time to tell the story. You know, we have set the things up, the pieces are on the board. 4, 5 and 6 have to move, and the pace has to be faster, in my opinion, especially if we're getting towards some sort of satisfying conclusion. What I am dreading and what I'm hoping we don't get is an inconclusive episode six where we continue to dangle too many carrots and we, the viewer, have not been able to take a nice juicy bite of any of them, and we're still just getting nibbles and we're dangling a bunch more. That would be extremely disappointing for me, and I think that is a recipe for disaster. That would. That would be a tough. That would be, I think, a tough sell for HBO to reboot or to renew the season for. For another.
- [67:11]
Leo
Yeah, for another season.
- [67:12]
Abu
You know, like, the viewer's got to walk away from season one feeling like, that was a great story, start to finish, that I was told. And I wonder what. What else there is to tell in this world, because there are some lingering things. That's the feeling I want to walk away with.
- [67:28]
Leo
Yeah, I think at the minimum, we need a, like, big confrontation. Desmond Hart needs to be. The whole mystery of him needs to be resolved. Yeah, probably, you know, like, his powers, how do they work? What are the limitations? Like, we need all of those answers. We also, I think, need there. I. I suspect there's going to be a connection with the. With Paul Atreides and sort of this kind of tying it. I. I suspect that's also Going to be kind of necessary if it ends. And it's like, oh, cool, what a great story. But also, what does this have to do with the sisterhood? What the sisterhood becomes, Whether this is, for instance, as people are speculating, if Lila is abomination and is the first example of abomination, we need to see them learn that lesson and go, we need to never let this happen again. So that then it's even more meaningful when Dune Messiah comes out and we have Alia and the fears around Alia. Like, that would be so good.
- [68:24]
Abu
Yes, Yes. I think Angie is putting that, what you just said very succinctly. And he says, I want to leave this show feeling like I learned something that. Sorry. Feeling like I learned something really profound that makes me appreciate the films directly. I think that's kind of what you're saying here, too.
- [68:40]
Leo
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that would be good if we saw, like, the origin of the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program. That would be really interesting and that would be cool and would then lend a lot of, like, new information to new fans of Dune about, like, why is Paul so special? And, you know, I know Quinn was. Was talking about if we would get a Paul Atreides, like Timothee Chalamet cameo in episode six or whatever. That would be so fucking wild. Not putting it past them, but for sure, that would be crazy. Or maybe shots from Villeneuve's film, if they licensed just a cameo, like, glimpse of something in a prescient vision. I don't know. We'll see. There's lots of ways that this can go badly.
- [69:28]
Abu
Yeah.
- [69:29]
Leo
But I also think that there's quite a few ways that it can surprise and delight. And I want to step back and celebrate the fact that we haven't had a Dune series, a Dune television series in over 20 years. So the fact that we're getting this at all, the fact that we're getting these great establishing shots. I know Alt Shift X after that first episode was saying, his B roll footage is going to look so good these days because now there's all this. Really. Because there's all this incredible footage. And I'm like, hell, yeah, a thousand percent. So I'm. I'm grateful. I think I'm. I'm realizing my standards are pretty low when it comes to being happy with what I'm given.
- [70:07]
Abu
Yeah.
- [70:07]
Leo
Some great.
- [70:08]
Abu
Some great comments here along those lines as well. Irene says, even though this season is not perfect, a second season would be so great. I want to stay in this world, Parentheses, it's better than the one we're in lately.
- [70:21]
Leo
Yeah. As much as we complain about the club, the club is better than, you know, the political Twitter in my bed.
- [70:30]
Abu
Yeah, for sure.
- [70:32]
Leo
Yeah.
- [70:32]
Abu
Last also says, I enjoyed the discourse around the show at least as much as I enjoy the show itself. That's the whole point.
- [70:40]
Leo
We'll take it.
- [70:40]
Abu
I love it.
- [70:41]
Leo
That's the point.
- [70:42]
Abu
That's the point of these live streams of our. Of our conversations. Like, I too, enjoy the discourse. Like, as. As critical as I can sometimes be because I do have high expectations. I have so much fun talking about the show with you, Leo.
- [70:58]
Leo
Talking.
- [70:59]
Abu
Talking about it in discord with our community and our patrons. Talking about it on these live streams with folks in the chat. Like, for me, more of the enjoyment of really any entertainment that I consume. Like, a huge part of the enjoyment of that is getting to share it with people who also enjoyed it or. Or day to day. You know, like, even, like sharing the hatred with someone is so much fun. And so. So for me, like, entertainment is such a communal experience with friends and fellow watchers and readers and stuff like that. So, like, I love a book club. I love a. Love. Back when Game of Thrones was coming out in college, I had this. I'm sure many people had this, but I had this, like, Sunday night tradition where me and a couple of friends would always pick someone's college dorm or apartment to go to every Sunday night, order some shitty food from the. From like the college cafeteria, and watch Game of Thrones. And that was every Sunday night for years for the. For many years. Game of Thrones is coming out. And that communal experience for me was very special. So I'm glad we get to recreate that here with a little. With our lovely Dune community.
- [72:13]
Leo
Yeah, absolutely. Same. Well, I think we should wrap up so that we can get to recording this episode.
- [72:20]
Abu
Definitely.
- [72:20]
Leo
Let's do our. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the larparty podcast network on loreparty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. You can also watch video versions of select episodes. Hey. On the Lore Party YouTube channel. Heard of it. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.