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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.
- [00:19]
B
And my name is Abu.
- [00:20]
A
And today on the show, we're live again. We've done it. We keep making the mistake of coming back, but we always have a good time. And of course we're excited to talk about Dune Prophecy Episode 4 Now that it's been out in the wild for a few days.
- [00:38]
B
That's right. And a quick reminder before we get into it, folks, if you're listening to this audio episode, days, weeks, months after.
- [00:46]
A
The fact, 10,000 years later, 10,000 years.
- [00:50]
B
After we posted it, just remember that you too, I guess, could have participated 10,000 years ago, could have participated in these live recordings every Thursday at 11am Eastern Time on the Lord Party YouTube channel. That link is in the show notes down below. So if you weren't able to make this live show and you're listening to it after the fact, maybe we'll catch you in the next one.
- [01:16]
A
Yeah, I think we've got one more. This is so. Hey, 10,000 years from now you're 10,000 minus a week late, basically.
- [01:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. Where should I invest my stock? Also let us know.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us now a spoiler warning for today's episode. We are of course going to be talking about episode four of Dune Prophecy. Make sure you've seen that. And also we'll be talking about Brian Herbert source books, Sisterhood, Mentats of Dune. No, no crazy spoilers for those. But you've been warned, if you plan on reading those books, go read them. This stuff will hang out for you whenever you're ready to listen.
- [01:56]
B
That's right. And as far as Frank books go, we do have one of the pre prepared questions. We have references, something from the fourth book. So highly recommend that you have read up through God, Emperor of Dune. Again, we have book club episodes. We're currently working through heretics on the feed and we highly recommend you check those out and read Frank's incredible books along with us. Okay. Shall we jump right in, Leo?
- [02:23]
A
Yeah. So dude, it's been a week. We saw the episode nine days ago. How are you feeling on it now that time has passed? Episode 4 of Dune Prophecy.
- [02:37]
B
You know, after having some conversations both online and offline about this episode, I think I have a greater appreciation for some parts of it that I perhaps didn't have in our original discussion. Travis Fimmel, I think, is doing a really spectacular job. I think the Landsraad scene, once he took over, played quite well, and, you know, that was a good time. I definitely am appreciating the sisterhood stuff and the mysteries around what's going on with Delilah and these shared visions the acolytes are having. A lot of those feelings are still the same. I think a lot of my criticisms still stand. You know, I haven't done any sort of 180 change of heart on any of the criticisms I voiced in our episode four breakdown conversation. But I will say I think I. The. The parts that I enjoyed, I've continued to enjoy on rewatches and discussions with friends and the parts that I didn't enjoy as much. I think my criticisms are perhaps a little less harsh and have been sanded down a little bit. They haven't gone away. But I'm trying to accept the show for what it is and what it's giving us and appreciate the. The parts that are genuinely good.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah.
- [04:07]
B
What about you?
- [04:08]
A
I think that's fair. And I'm about the same. I still like the episode plenty. I still enjoyed a lot of what it had to offer. I do find that the more I've thought about it, the more upset I am about the Ixian guy. Because I rewatched.
- [04:28]
B
That's a big theme in our episode.
- [04:30]
A
It's. It's rough because I rewatched part of the episode this morning as I was working on some other stuff, and the whole, like, oh, I had to improvise. Improvise how it's better. Big boom. Like the kind of gnarly. Just. He's such a caricature. And this was our chance to meet an Ixion for the first time. And I think in retrospect, that really bums me out. Like, it bums me out that he looks like a villain on the Flash. The CW Flash. You know, I think that is. That continues to really. It got in the way immediately of enjoying the episode. And then I just cannot help but think, oh, this is how people introduced Ixians to the broader audience. Now Angie has a hilarious comment. Angie says, okay, maybe the Ixians are a diverse group and that guy is just a gangster, which is really funny. You know, you've opened up the pathway to them redeeming themselves. Maybe they introduced another Ixion. And the other Ixians, like, high collar, very, like, prim and proper. And he goes, oh, that guy is absolutely terrible. He's such a cliche, isn't he? And everyone goes, oh my God, what is it, planet? So anyway, I, I very much enjoyed it. I do think that, yeah, the club scenes, the indiclurb scenes were continue to be really, really bad. But like, most of it, most of it I was really enjoying. And you know, I. I think the last week has. Hasn't really changed that much for me.
- [06:11]
B
Yeah. Okay. We already have some great questions being thrown into the chat, so let's dive into some of these. I'm going to throw up Julian's question first because Julian was first. Why do these prequel series always decide they have to throw in every established thing in the lore in one story? I think that's a fair question. Yeah, I think we, we sort of touched on this in our episode about. In our breakdown of episode four when we got into that conversation about like, fan service. Yeah, good versus how do you do it? Well, and that sort of spectrum of fan service and how do you address it? I will say, I think for what it's worth, the show is doing a pretty good job. Nothing has felt so overt that it like completely takes you out of the story. There's certainly fan service there and in my opinion, there's certainly bad fan service sprinkled throughout this show. There is one thing I forgot to mention. I believe it's in this episode. It might have been three. I'm getting my episodes mixed up. But at one point a character says like, oh, actually I think Hulk Hogan says this, that once we blow up this bomb, the spice will flow to all of us.
- [07:27]
A
Yeah.
- [07:27]
B
You know, and I was like, that's this episode. Okay, so that was episode four. And that made me cringe because I was like, did somebody just google like popular Dune quotes and made sure they like hit all of them in the script? Yeah, that. That's an example, I think, of sort of bad fan service. I think when it comes to the Bryant books, this is a criticism you and I both share. But those books do tend to like be so attached to the original Frank story and trying to explain everything in the original Frank story that it does suffer from like extreme pre qualitis where it is so tied to the original universe and keeps trying to ham fist in original universe stuff that it fails to just tell a good original story of its own. So I think this is a challenge for all prequels and certainly it's a challenge this show is tackling, but I think for the most part tackling pretty well. But you think Leo?
- [08:27]
A
No, I mean, you nailed it. I think there's A good way to do it, and there's a bad way to do it. And it's been mostly good. Mostly feels pretty appropriate. The Brian books, and again, the seminal text that this is based on is a much like, more vicious perpetrator of this mistake. You know, one thing that comes to mind is the Mentat Carry. The Bene Gesserit Mentat carry discovers and invents Sappho juice, but just, like, brings it to Gilbertus Albans. And it does kind of end up playing a little bit of a part in Mentats of Dune, but, like, not that big of a part. And then I just feel like you are rushing to invent on page these things that are mentioned offhandedly in the main series. And of course, with the History of Brian and the Dune Encyclopedia, I can't help but think he's also rushing to overwrite the lore that exists between the books and between the pages as quickly as possible as well. Like, this is my stamp. And now I can tell if people are good people because they like my lore or bad people because they like Dune Encyclopedia lore. And I'm like, dude, let it be Akassian. I like the idea of Jusus Sappho being an Akazian root. I also, again, love that in the prime canon Juice of Sappho. Mentats claim it helps them work better, but that's how it's phrased. They claim it helps them work better. And I'm like, no, I think this is just liquor. I just. I think they just like it. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm so much better. I'm so much smarter now.
- [10:05]
B
It just calms the nerves, you know, it lets you. Lets you get out of your head a little bit.
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A
I mean, listen, you're trained to be a human computer. That's got to be exhausting. Sometimes you just got to do a couple of jello shots of Sappho juice. Like, I'm right there. I'm. I think that's a much more compelling and much more human version versus the, like. No, it's actually this crazy drug that does all this stuff. I don't know. So anyway, all of that to say, yeah, there's a good way and a bad way to do it. Brian does it bad a lot. And I think the show's fine so.
- [10:36]
B
Far, but the show's straddling the line in the best way it can. Dave also has a bit of a counterpoint here I want to acknowledge. Dave writes, don't be so hard on the Ixian. This story is Way before the big time Ixians we know in later stories. Maybe they started out as small time tech hustlers before they got hooked up with players.
- [10:55]
A
Hey, you know, that's 10,000 years. Totally. That's totally fair. Yeah, that's totally fair. I do still stand by the point that, like. And I think this is also something that is going to be true for the series overall. It does not mean that they can't correct course over the next few adaptations and series and the next few episodes. Maybe you're right. Maybe the Ixians will. At some point we will be shown them becoming the sort of advanced civilization that we know they are in Dune. The problem is if we don't get those adaptations, if we don't get those future seasons, or if, if people just don't engage with them, then I'm going to be out in the world talking to my buddy Abu about my favorite Ixian invention. And they're going to be like the fucking thug smuggler. And I'm like, no, like, it's muddied the waters a little bit. And it's, it's adding development where we didn't really need development. The Ixians are never in the limelight. So I don't know that we need this crazy, incredible character growth for that planet and people.
- [11:59]
B
Yeah. Which is again, kind of like a larger prequel problem. Like a really tough challenge. And why so many prequels don't get it right. Is prequels aren't necessarily there to answer all of the questions you had about the original, like, holy text, you know, like some of the mysteries were just mysteries because who cares? And like, answering them and filling in every gap of a universe until there's no holes left is actually not a satisfying way to like, at least for me as a reader. Like, that's not a satisfying way to experience a universe where there are no mysteries and everything gets an explanation via a prequel or a side story or a fill in the gap short story or something. I prefer there to be unexplainable things in a universe. That's how real life works too. There are unexplainable questions that we don't have answers to. And so I think that's a tough line to straddle. And I think what a good prequel does is it tells its own story but manages to capture the. The feel and vibe of the original text, which is so elusive. Right. Like, how do you nail that perfectly? That's. That's an extremely difficult thing to do.
- [13:16]
A
Yeah. And I do see in chat, like, a conversation about The Ixians kind of continuing. Takako is asking how they're portrayed in the books, and I just did a quick word search. Word Ixion does not come up in Sisterhood or Mentats. So they aren't, at the time of this series, in Brian's canonicity. That being said, in the prequel books about House Atreides and House Harkonnen that we covered in the comic book form a little bit, Zaptagius is right that the Ixians live underground, and this is due to their persecution for being tech sympathizers. They live underground and they have suboids who are the, like, working class, you know, like slave class, basically. But slavery in the. Like. I got the impression it was slavery in the capitalistic way, not the literal. Like, we captured these or we bought them in slave markets and stuff. I got. They're just the oppressed working class. And all of that, though, is again, underneath the broader point that the Ixians that we meet are all like, of House Furnius are all like, aristocrats. Like, they're all like, you know, smart, yucky, prim and proper folks. They're not like, above reproach. Of course, again, they have basically slaves. They're pushing and breaking laws and all sorts of stuff. But they're doing that in the way that Silicon Valley does that today to a degree.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah, definitely. Great question. Great conversation. Good way to start today. I'm looking through. I don't want to miss. There was another question I liked as well. Oh, here I want to throw up. Alphonse question. Alphon asks, if this wasn't a Dune show, would you enjoy it more?
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A
No. What about you?
- [15:12]
B
No. If anything, I think the duniness and the world building.
- [15:19]
A
Yeah.
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B
Is what I'm enjoying most about the show.
- [15:23]
A
Yeah, I think. I think that there is stuff in the show that I would enjoy regardless. But there is nothing I would enjoy more. You know, actually, I see the approach of the question. Like, if it. Because some of our complaints are about, like, adhering to Dune canonicity. So if we took that complaint out of it, would we like it more? And I don't know necessarily that I would, because I still think, like, for instance, the Ixion, who continues to be this, like, pinnacle frustration for me, is still a very cliche character in the way he's written and portrayed in the scene, how he works and everything. And I don't think that making all of this not Dune suddenly fixes that problem. But I can tell you that there is a great deal that I just feel happy that I'm seeing people in Dune existing in Dune who are politicking. And we get to see Caladan, we get to see Seleucus Secundus, we get to see these planets, Blankevale, that I've read about and have thought about for so long, and they look so good. So I. I think that the.
- [16:31]
B
There's a lot of joy in seeing that stuff interpreted on the screen.
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A
Thousand percent. Yeah. And I do, you know, I think that there is stuff that if we took Dune away from it altogether, I would still very much enjoy the Vale Atula stuff. I think that writing is really, really good. And I think the acting is really, really good. I would be bought in for sure if this were like a silo sort of show where I haven't read the source material and I'm just enjoying the ride. For sure, I would still enjoy parts of the show, but I think Dune definitely makes it better.
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B
Yeah, I agree. Which is funny because I had an inverse experience with the foundation show.
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A
Oh. Yeah.
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B
I was very mixed on the first season because I was fixated on how much it wasn't the book. It changed so much and introduced so much original and new stuff. But then I continued and I was like, well, I enjoyed it enough that I'm gonna check out season two. And I ended up loving total, almost change of opinion on the show entirely. I ended up loving season two. And it's because I approached season two by being like, this just isn't the book that I love. It borrows things, I guess. But this show is clearly not trying to be the book. And so I'm just gonna pretend this is just a sci fi show that I'm watching that has nothing to do with Asimov and this book. And that greatly increased my enjoyment of it. So it's funny, I really liked Alphonse bringing this question up because I don't think that would be the case with prophecy. I don't think I would enjoy it more if I pretended it had nothing to do with the Dune universe. Great question, though. Thank you, Alphonse.
- [18:14]
A
Agreed. Let's go to Ben's question and we can move kind of quickly through some of these because they're good questions that might not warrant full discussion, but Ben asks. I'm still 100% on Team Lila is an abomination. Great team name, Ben. Anyone else? And that is wrong one.
- [18:39]
B
There we go.
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A
There it is. And yeah, I think Lila. There's a lot to discover about the state Lila's in. I think it's the whole idea of her being in this bacta tank and then waking up. I think she's going to be possibleTotal for episodes five and six for sure.
- [19:00]
B
Yeah, agreed. Here's a cursed theory from the thin king, only 75% joking. Lila is possessed by Vorian Atreides, her great, great grandfather. This explains how he finally shows up and continues the Atreides Harkonnen rivalry. That is a crazy theory. Not sure I believe in that one, though.
- [19:24]
A
I don't think. I don't think so. But I like where your head's at. I do. I. I am sort of thinking we might get a Vorian Atreides reveal in episode six. Like, he's been name dropped enough. Enough that it's like maybe. I just hope that whoever they cast, if they show him at some point, I hope whoever they cast is really hot because he's just gotta be. He's just gotta be a real hottie, right?
- [19:58]
B
He's got to compete with the rest of this cast. And we're working with like nines and tens here, folks.
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A
I know, it's crazy.
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B
You gotta find an 11 somewhere.
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A
He's. I will also say in Mentats and Navigators, I'm now reading Navigators of Dune, and he and his like great, great, great nephew or something, Willem, are now traveling, looking, tracking down Tula Harkonnen. So it's possible they'll show up to kind of like address the things she did on Caladan that I could see that happening in episode six. It would be super messy, and I don't think it'd be a good way to end the show introducing this whole new bag of worms that you're not going to resolve, but could be kind of.
- [20:39]
B
It could happen.
- [20:40]
A
Maybe that could be like a post credit reference or something to tease up season two or something, right?
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B
Yes. Marvelous. Right? At the end of this show, here's something. Here's a question from RW Kibalo. They ask by how nice the Harkonnen embassy looks in this episode. It sure looks like they've gone up in the world since the flashback scenes of the crude hut in the Whalefur village. Did Valya help them out?
- [21:11]
A
So here's the quick answer is we have no idea. And it's a good point. Also, that's you, Roman Cabalo, right? Probably. Oh.
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B
Oh, yes. That's probably Roman. Hi, Roman.
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A
Sorry, I was like, Abu's like, R. Caballo.
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B
Could this be.
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A
Don't know him.
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B
L E O.
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A
Don't know them. So we don't know. I will say In. In Dune and. Sorry. In Sisterhood of Dune and Mentats of Dune, Vori and Atreides makes an anonymous financial donation to House Harkonnen to help them out, because they're basically fucked. After Griffin dies, after Valia leaves, after Tula leaves, the house is fucked. Borian shows up, hangs out with them incognito a bit, and then donates a ton of money to them. So actually, he. His finances is, like, what makes them recovering possible. So maybe that'll be something that is talked about. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe that is something that happened in the background. Vorian's financial thing came through and they were able to, like, have someone now at the Landsraad. So they actually have come up a little bit.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But it's also just possible they've been fighting their way forward.
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B
I mean, the welfare industry is lucrative. I don't think they're still making money off of it. And there is a world in which they've just kind of committed to the slow and steady investment route. You get your 5 to 8% return every year for the next 30 years, and you slowly work your way up to a level of certain wealth. You know, like, the House Harkonnen is still a house, to be clear. They're still not, like unnamed peasantry, basically, in the context of this universe. So they do have some level of wealth and status. Obviously, Harrow Harkonnen wants more. He wants to be one of the great houses on the Landsraad. But I imagine, economically, that they've been also doing okay for themselves with the whalefare industry.
- [23:24]
A
Yeah. I'm also thinking. Because we get the. Because episode three is the one where she goes back to House Harkonnen finally at the final scene. Right. And then episode four, we see that House Harkonnen is still a disgraced House and is still floundering politically. But that doesn't mean that they haven't, like, recovered somewhat since that dismal time on Lakeville, so.
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B
For sure, yeah. Agreed.
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A
Very interesting. Now, yeah. Ice Crony. How did the killing machines come to exist? Did Ixians make them? That's a great question. I don't know the answer to that, honestly, because I think Brian probably has that outlined pretty well in the. Like. But Larry and Jihad, like, trilogy and trilogy of books. Yeah. Because that focuses on the sort of rise and then the. The war. I. I get the impression it's just AI that begins to have more and more sentience and more and more capacity for doing things against humans. And then you get people who decide For a long life and they become Cymex and. But I don't know. I think a lot of that's outlined in the prequel books. Ixians did not. Are not the sole cause of thinking machines in Brian's books or in prime canon. Although naturally Leito mentions in book four that the Ixians did play with like prescience Biological hunting, autonomous hunter seekers. And it's like fucking why. So anyway, yeah, not sure. But maybe eventually we'll talk about those prequel books and we'll find out.
- [25:13]
B
Here's a question from John. John asks, could Desmond just be working for Valia in some sort of plot within plot?
- [25:23]
A
I mean, that would be wild.
- [25:25]
B
That would be wild. I think we've done nothing at all to set that up. So if that were a twist, it would be bad in my opinion. I don't know. I don't think we're going in that direction.
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A
I don't think so either. Also, because I could excuse that in every scene where there's other people present, which is so far the scene with the emperor and the courtroom, but they're like private scenes where it's just him and her and he resists the voice. That doesn't make any sense if it isn't what it just appears to be. But the face dancer does appear to be something that. Like, what's going to happen with that? Can we trust who we are seeing on screen moving forward?
- [26:12]
B
That's the question. Oh, hi Chincendiary. Hello. Oh wow, this is funny. Chancendiary posted this question and I'm going to throw this graphic up because this is one of their pre prepared questions that I had already pre prepared. How fun. Okay, well, let's go to the comment that they posted here. Jen Sendieri said, I posted this as a comment on the episode for review. But it 100% feels like the Kieran story was added on after the show pivoted from sisterhood to. To prophecy. That's my cursed theory. You know what, everyone throw out your cursed theories at this point. That's clearly the vibe today. What do you think? Do you think like show? Obviously the show had a very rocky production. It changed creative visions many times. Showrunners many times. Directors came and went. Originally it was pitched as a prequel to Villeneuve's films and Villeneuve was set to actually direct.
- [27:11]
A
Direct the first episode, the first episode.
- [27:13]
B
Himself, but then obviously got busy with the films and left the project. So yes, what we are seeing now is the end result of many mutations of this show. Do we think the Kieran stuff Feels like a tacked on edition.
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A
It does. And yeah, the whole like rebel plot thing doesn't really have as much DNA in the Sisterhood book, so it does feel like them kind of going off on their own, but I don't know. Yeah, that's really interesting. That old.
- [27:55]
B
That's interesting.
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A
Yeah, man. I really want to have some conversations with the eps again just to like get through a little bit of this and figure out what. What is and isn't from different eras of the development. That's interesting.
- [28:10]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. I hadn't thought of this until Jenn Cendiary left that comment. And now I'm thinking about it like maybe the Kieran stuff was tacked on later in some point in the production because again, you know, I've been very vocal about it being the weakest part of the show and it could have been like a last minute addition that was crammed in. Interesting thought.
- [28:37]
A
I've been listening to the Inside podcast, the episodes of their official podcast, and it is fun to listen to the actors really talking about their motivations. And what is Kieran's relationship to as Atreides name is such an interesting question that the actor who plays him had some interesting thoughts about feeling like you're living up to this. It's a war hero, it's this beloved house. But like, does that mean that you're playing into everyone's expectations? And there is a broader conversation that happens across a few of the interviews where I get the feeling that all of these characters are feeling beholden to their expectations. Valya's frustrations about her family was that they keep expecting her to be this petulant, selfish, you know, ambitious person. And then she just kind of feels like she can't not be that because then they win and there's sort of a stubbornness there and. And then Haro is expected to be this failure and so he's projecting that and. And you know, Havoco is expected to play with the rules or else he gets ousted. And so now he's rejecting that. With Desmond, there's all these like. It's an interesting thing. I mean, that would probably be a takeaway that I would have mid midweek, but the idea of like Kieran Atreides, as much as I think his writing and his scenes are not very fun, it was interesting to hear the actor who plays him talking a little bit about him. It was like, oh, cool. Glad to know that they're doing this background work, even if it doesn't get represented in the script or on the screen.
- [30:15]
B
Right. And you're totally right. There is a thematic through line of many of these characters living in the shadow of the expectations of their families and their stations in life and the legendary figures that came before them. Havoco clearly says that to Desmond in this very episode where he expresses how insecure he is. The emperors and carinos that came before him were like legendary war heroes.
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A
Yeah. Javico Karina was fucking tall and hot.
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B
So. And. And, you know, I think that's a through line that. That is interesting. And, you know, I wish would have been explored further. This, like, who.
- [30:57]
A
Who.
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B
How does a generation define itself when it comes after the greatest generation? Right. Like when your dad fucking fought Nazis in World War II and you're just like a clerk in an office. What does that do to you as a person? And how do you live up to the expectations of a previous generation? I think there's some interesting questions here that are just kind of lightly being brushed instead of really being honed in on as a theme.
- [31:27]
A
Yeah.
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B
Angie has a question for us about acting. I'm curious about your opinion as an actor here whose acting performances are standing out for you all in episode four, asks Angie.
- [31:39]
A
I want to completely echo what someone else said. It was. Oh, Daniel Dion, of course. I liked Harkonnen Nephew's acting. Yeah. Haro Harkonnen. And agreed with Team Haro. Someone else said that, too. Yes. I think Hara Harkonnen's doing a great job. I really enjoy his anxiousness. His, like. I love going back to that. Him being pitched by the two High Council guys. I love him trying to, the way he's seen other people do it, try to get his truthsayer's attention, but, like, not lacking the ease. So he's kind of, like, awkward about it. And then he, you know, hand up to outstanding work. You know, like, very. That little beat was so fun and really great physical acting.
- [32:38]
B
Had some really pro tip. Pro politics tip. My guy. Whisper more quietly.
- [32:45]
A
I can't tell if that was fully audible to the two guys.
- [32:48]
B
Just they're sitting right across from you at the table. You need to be quieter with the whisper.
- [32:55]
A
It echoes in the room. Outstanding work. Oh, no, I think they heard me. Yeah. So, no, I'm really loving him. I think the. The young, young Tula. Emma Canning. Canning. I think it's the name. Is that Emma Canning?
- [33:14]
B
I believe so.
- [33:16]
A
Yeah. Emma Canning is amazing. Generally, I think pretty much everybody's doing a great job. Again, not loving the smugglers or the Rebels. But it's. The thing is, with acting conversations, we are seeing the choices that actors are making on the day in the set, but we're also not seeing the script, the direction. We're not seeing the things they've been told. We're not seeing what ends up on the cutting room floor. We're not seeing all of that. So it is really hard. I can look at Desmond Hart and Travis Fimmel and what he's doing, and I can see choices he's making that are. Are that feel very fun for his character. And I might give him credit that's actually better due to the direction he got or the script he was given. But something that they said in the interview was the court scene that we saw was filmed over four days because of all the extras. It was just like a ton of logistics. And apparently he gave that monologue of the wandering spiders and the scorpions and the stinging, you know, wasps. That whole monologue. Apparently he gave, like, four days in a row and just kept giving the same high, amazing energy every time. So apparently all of the other actors are like, Kieran Atreides's actor was saying, like, good fucking Lord, dude. Travis Fimmel killing it, because it's a job. He's showing up and he's doing the job. So I. That is a. That's a big caveat to all of us. I think sometimes we go, oh, that person's not a good actor. That Ixion. What a cliche actor. But that dude might be, like, Shakespearean trained and incredible actor. And then he gets the line is, big boom. Big boom.
- [34:57]
B
Big. There are only so much you can do with big boom.
- [35:00]
A
And the director is like, snarl a bit. Snarl teeth. Show your teeth. And he's like, big boom. And it's like, perfect. And then he goes home and cries. So, like, I don't want to be too, like, judgy on acting, but for sure, I think, yeah, Lila's actress is amazing. The young Tula, young Valia. Of course, the older Valia and Tula are incredible. If I had IMDb up, I would just say their names, but, yeah, that's me. Anybody stand out for you? Abu?
- [35:33]
B
I don't know much about the acting world. That's totally outside of my sort of sphere of experience. But just as a viewer, I can say the young cast has just been absolutely electric. I think I do have the IMDb up, so let me rattle off some names. Chloe Leia or Chloe Lee as sister. Lila has been doing a spectacular job. I think both young Valia and Young Tula were amazing. I think young Valia was played by Jessica Barden. And you're correct, young Tula was played by Emily or Emma Canning. I thought they were both spectacular. And I'm glued to the screen every time they're on. I think the adult cast is doing excellent as well. In particular, I do think, like, Emily Watson in this episode, that final confrontation with her uncle.
- [36:27]
A
Like, I will not apologize for actual goosebumps.
- [36:31]
B
I will not apologize for my strength. Emily Watson, like, really, really carrying the team here with some incredible acting. So those are a couple I wanted to shout out for. Sure.
- [36:43]
A
Great question. Yeah. There's some discussion around plot elements from the Brian books. Mentat1231 says, I read somewhere that Desmond Hart doesn't blink. Has anyone noticed? Confirmed that. I have no idea myself. I want to say.
- [37:01]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [37:02]
A
I want to say he. I want to say he does blink, but not often.
- [37:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [37:09]
A
I feel like there's a scene where he flutters his eyes a little bit. I mean, I guess he's not like, blinking normally. Maybe he. Yeah, maybe part of his direction is just keep your peepers open. Yeah, that's interesting. He is wearing, like, a Contact or something. Maybe it's just uncomfortable and he doesn't want to blink.
- [37:27]
B
Right. Because he'll just be crying itchy constantly on set.
- [37:32]
A
That's just how all of his acting performances come out. He meant to say the Wandering Spiders, but then his eyes fucking hurt. So he's like, the Wandering Spiders.
- [37:44]
B
Shall we talk Theodosia? There's some conversation in the chat about Theodosia. I do have a pre prepared. Yeah, it's not a question, it's more of a quote. So I think Daniel posted this in Discord last night about the official Dune Prophecy podcast and how they had the writers on to talk about Theodosia and that scene for a little bit. So I listened to just that section. I didn't listen to the whole episode, but I wanted to share the quote from the writers about Theodosia and the Face Dancer transformation, which we know is Face Dancer because Jordan Goldberg, the ep, said so. Okay. So the writers they had on the episode were Kevin Lau and Susanne Ruble, and they said it's Theo's choice to turn into Griffin. It's her way of telling Valya, I'm willing to do this for you. We thought of it almost as a gift she's giving to Valya. So I know in our FaceTime call, I had expressed some confusion on why turn into Griffin. Why do this transformation you swore to never do. And what is the purpose of being doing this, you know, And I was very confused by that scene, basically. And seemingly that's the answer. Theo did it as a way to show Valya that she too is willing to make the tough sacrifices that the sisterhood requires, just as Valya has done with her family.
- [39:13]
A
Yeah, and I think they elaborate because I was listening to the podcasts yesterday. I think they elaborate that it's like also she thought giving Valya that moment to see her brother again, to like hug him and to be there with him, even though it's not him, is still like a healing moment for Valia. So again, yes, the. It's an interesting insight. I do wonder what like, the average viewer would think about that, you know, like. Or maybe not the average viewer, but the viewer who asks those additional follow up questions. Because I think for the average viewer, it's a good moment in TV that introduces this whole new thing. But lore wise, it does open up some cans of worms. Takako says regarding Theodosia current headcanon is that she was part of a Tleilaxu experiment or something and escaped and was somehow left behind somewhere or was rescued. I do think that we're getting this pattern of the sisterhood rescuing people, rescuing people when they need help. We've seen that Yanez, the whole reason she's loyal to the sisterhood is because Kasha and the sisterhood went and retrieved her after she was kidnapped during that initial rebellion plot, we see in some ways, you know, some characters are clearly finding. I think we don't really get a lot of Jen's backstory, but we get hints of what it might have been. And it does seem like the Bene Gesserit is something that she has, you know, a new place for her, a new time for her. So I do think there is this, like, people being rescued is kind of a theme. But yeah, we're going to have to find out. I was very. I actually wrote as we were prepping for the episode five script, I had forgotten that they had said that she is a toy Laxu and that she is a toy Laxu is still very confusing to me. But yeah, it's fine.
- [41:22]
B
It throw. It throws a monkey wrench. That feels a little unnecessary. I mean, even lore issues aside, like, I actually just had like, storytelling issues with this moment. Like, it almost feels like this episode was missing scenes between Theodosia and Valya to further build upon their, I don't know, their like, mentor, mentee relationship of some Kind because mere minutes earlier we see Theodosia go, fuck you, Valya. I can't believe you would ask me to do this thing that I swore off of ever doing again. It's clearly painful. We see that in the final shot of the episode. And so this like total 180 heel turn to then transform into a. Into this brother that she doesn't even really know. Like, does Theodosia know Valia enough to like make such a personal gesture toward them? You know, like, it. I'm not sure. Yeah, I guess people give their teachers birthday presents and shit, but it just. It feels. What feels? For even Theodosia's character, even just putting Laura aside and accepting she's a face dancer. It feels like, unearned to get to this point suddenly to have this emotional interaction between Theodosia and Valya without building toward it in some way for both of the characters. And so that's the part that felt most confusing to me. I was like, did I miss something? Did they talk about this outside of the one scene where Theodosia went, fuck you, I'm never gonna do that? That's the part that rubs me the wrong way.
- [43:12]
A
Yeah.
- [43:13]
B
And the lore stuff raises a ton of questions too. So that is another layer that kind of rubs me the wrong way too.
- [43:18]
A
Yeah, there's a lot of, like. There's a lot of characters maybe coming around or having new thoughts or feelings about each other and their circumstances that we don't necessarily get a lot of evidence for. So it can feel kind of sudden. I think that's also a byproduct of like six episodes. It's just not a lot of time. And if we had had like one more scene of Theodosia and Valya hashing it out and talking, then it would feel a lot more justified. But it is what it is. John Curtis asks if Albert is Kieran's grandfather or father. And I think he's just his father.
- [44:02]
B
Yeah.
- [44:03]
A
Yeah.
- [44:03]
B
I think Kieran basically says that father.
- [44:07]
A
Survived a atrocity or whatever. I think that's. Yeah, Albert.
- [44:11]
B
I think that line is meant to all but confirm that that kid from the flashback is just Kieran's dad. At least to me that that seemed what that line was for. Basically.
- [44:23]
A
Ice Crony Lila's Voldemort Zaptages says Lila is Voldemort.
- [44:33]
B
Now that's a cursed theory. Let's go.
- [44:36]
A
The Reverend Mother who lived come to die. Ice Corny asks what would be a good ending for the season for you and Abu. We've talked about this a little bit.
- [44:50]
B
But, yeah, I think I want to punt this question. We have seen episode five, and I am scared that I will say a spoiler. Okay, we should talk about this next week, because episode five is penultimate. And I think then it's a good time to say, like, okay, what do we want in the final episode? How do we want this to wrap up?
- [45:08]
A
That's true.
- [45:09]
B
Right now, I'm afraid that I will leak something.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's kind of been my vibe the whole day. I will reiterate what I said before. I think if we get a satisfying, emotional conclusion to the Valiatullah stuff that has worked so well at the heart of this series, I think that will feel good. And I'm okay with there being some questions unanswered. But the core struggle of Valya and, like, Desmond. Valya v. Desmond, I think needs to happen. And that's. That's. I think, would be a good ending. Let's see. It looks like Leo's drinking moonshine. I am absolutely not. How dare you? This is seltzer. Soda Stream is supremacy. I love seltzer.
- [45:54]
B
It's so early in the morning. That would be a wild choice.
- [45:59]
A
Moonshine's awful, too. Have you had moonshine?
- [46:01]
B
I've never had moonshine.
- [46:03]
A
I mean, granted, it's not a. It's not a monolith, but the moonshine I've had has been real rough.
- [46:11]
B
Oh, here's something sweet that I wanted to throw up. Our lovely patron Takaka, who we've already mentioned a couple of times, DM'd me this week, bro.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah, same.
- [46:20]
B
And was like, I just wanted to make sure that you and Leo are crediting the right person about the Lila being the Twice Born Theory. It wasn't me. It was Aoko who suggested it. I am actually well known to be horrible with speculation, and Takaku just wanted to make sure we credited. Ah, I love our community. Y'all are just awesome.
- [46:39]
A
Also, I took, like, four years of Japanese. You'd think I would. I'd be a little better at not getting Ayako and Takako mixed up. My bad. I'm so sorry. I was moving quickly and, you know, whatever. So my bad, right?
- [46:52]
B
We are doing it live, so, you know, it's gonna be some mistakes here.
- [46:57]
A
Now I am seeing a few comments, and just to put it out there for people who aren't part of chat, there is a conversation happening around Desmond being a sort of analog to Rasputin, which is something that was brought up in the companion podcast as well as in some of the, like, behind the Veil. He's this sort of like mystical warrior who comes in and throws. Throws up. You know, he's an agent of chaos and all this stuff. So for sure, I think that is something I've been hearing a lot in the like, blogosphere, which is cool.
- [47:30]
B
Yeah. Oh, Sylvain's got a quick question that I think is worth addressing. I'm confused with the timeline of the show. It's roughly 100 years after the Butlerian Jihad. But how many years before or after the Guild creation.
- [47:47]
A
Daniel, do you know? So the entity that will become the Spacing Guild exists right now, is already around and operating and operating and is becoming the monopoly that it will be. The challenge is. I haven't gotten. It happens, I think in Navigators of Dune. I haven't gotten to the point where Joseph Venport holdings becomes the Spacing Guild. So that is the foundation of the Spacing Guild. And that is the point at which like, you know, a few hundred years later, at the time of ratifying the great convention, they decide, okay, that's a good time for us to be at zero. And now it's 100 AG or whatever. But yeah, so we're not sure. I think this the Spacing Guild. Although the Spacing Guild has been name dropped in the show.
- [48:39]
B
Yes, there was a guild name drop in the show.
- [48:42]
A
So it has been founded.
- [48:45]
B
Right.
- [48:45]
A
Or that.
- [48:46]
B
But unclear. Like Proto Guild before Monopoly. Or are they already a monopoly at this point in the show? I think that's still a bit hazy. Yeah, but it's a good question.
- [48:57]
A
It's a good question. And I think is also complicated by the fact that all this lore is very, very messy.
- [49:03]
B
Oh my God. Hilarious. Did you see Daniel's response there? Is that the very bottom.
- [49:10]
A
It's not entirely resolved at the end of Navigators of Dune. What awful news.
- [49:14]
B
So what is Navigators of Dune about? Hilarious. It's in the title. Anyway, I wanted to throw up this Max Silva comment. It's a two parter, but I think it's good. And I think it sort of counterbalances some of, perhaps some of our criticism of the rebel plot line. Max writes my take on the Rebellion plotline. It's not compelling because it's not supposed to be compelling. Not only because it's really there to show sisterhood manipulation, but also because we're being shown that these wannabe rebels don't have real ideology and aren't really representing an actual grassroots movement. They're privileged folks. Cosplaying revolution.
- [49:59]
A
That's. You know what I think that's really. That's an interesting point. I am happy to use that as a means of feeling better about the show because I think like the idea of the meta storytelling of that where you say, you know, these people are caricatures because kind of along those lines, these characters are. These characters are acting as caricatures because that's how they think of rebellion and that's how they think they're cosplaying. They're like doing the roles. That gives a lot of credit to the screenwriters that I think if it is intentional, that it goes so far above the head of the average viewer and myself included, where I'm just going, oh, this is cliche. Missing the point that it's self referentially cliche. Yeah, but I like that idea.
- [50:53]
B
It's an interesting take. I don't think. I agree, but I think Max makes a very strong point that the plot could simply just be there as an extension of sisterhood manipulation. And we aren't meant to be like thinking so critically about it. Like, maybe the plot doesn't go that deep. It's just another way the sisterhood is playing the chess pieces on the board.
- [51:16]
A
Yeah. I do think, you know, when we. There were conversations that were happening around Yanez and Constantine's kidnapping and whether or not. Because that is how Yanez was rescued by the Bene Gesserit, whether or not the Bene Gesserit orchestrated that kidnapping as well. And there are some of these big, broad questions that it seems like even the script, the showrunners and the executive producers aren't eager to button everything up. They're allowing for some of these things to be open where we sit as viewers and go, is this all Bene Gesserit manipulation? And that is the right mindset to have as you watch the show. So I do appreciate that. I think giving a little bit more space for people to question even the nature of the rebellion. You go, man, what are they? They've. We've been under their boots for too long. Okay, but what specifically? And yeah, maybe they don't have a specific answer because someone in the shadows, you know, six months ago was like, don't you hate being under people's boots? And they're like, yeah, yeah, I do hate being under people's. We should start a rebellion. You know, like, yeah, I think that's fun.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah. And to your point, I think, like, if that is the intention, perhaps too subtle, you know, like the example in a Frank book That I can think of. And we did say God, emperor of Dune. Spoilers at the top here, folks.
- [52:43]
A
True.
- [52:43]
B
So I'm about to say something from God emperor of Dune, but the example I can think of is Siona, who we know is sort of part of this, like, bumbling rebellion and doesn't quite understand how to operate one. And we know that because Duncan says that to her face.
- [53:03]
A
Yeah, you got a bunch of friends killed.
- [53:06]
B
So the story itself addresses the like commentary about Siona and this young rebellion that's hot headed but clearly doesn't have a vision and a game plan. Whereas someone more experienced like Duncan would come in with a vision and a game plan and be less hot headed and not get her friends killed by wolves like Siona did. So I think, like, I like Max's theory and I agree that I think there was certainly an intention by the showrunners to use the rebellion as a way to show more sisterhood manipulation. But I think it's risky. I think it's risky to be like, let's write a boring thing that's just meant to be boring. Don't worry about it. You know, it's like, ooh, are you sure? Because you run the risk of making me, the viewer bored.
- [53:58]
A
Who could have foreseen. Quick, quick question from ginsendiary have avoided the Brian and Kevin books. Do I need to use an audible credit? I recommend getting them from your library. From your local library, the Libby app or whatever.
- [54:14]
B
Libby for sure.
- [54:16]
A
Yeah. Again, do it how you must. I must. I bought the only physical copy of a Brian book that I have. I bought secondhand and actually I think came maybe from a library at some point. It's one of those like, it's like weirdly marked and stuff. I like it, but otherwise, yeah, I think, I think spending your money on it might make you upset. Just as a side note. Yep. Ben Danter says it's confirmed in the HBO pod for episode four that Albert is Kieran's dad. Okay, good.
- [54:52]
B
There we go. Yes, here's a. I did want to throw up this question about Mentats that we got from from a patron. Yet another Miles take clone from the Discord. Asked or commented that the original books gave me a strong impression that the Bene Gesserit never used their own sisters as Mentats until the God Emperor banned them under his rule. I also had the same impression, actually, although I can't say for certain whether that is canonically true.
- [55:27]
A
I don't think we meet a Mentat Bene Gesserit until heretics. I don't think. That being said, maybe the Dune Encyclopedia has.
- [55:39]
B
And I think there's implications of a mentat sister in Godhumper of Dune, which is maybe what Miles Teg Klone is referencing.
- [55:47]
A
That's fair. Yeah. Like reference to someone. Or maybe one of the. Or maybe one of the sisters who comes to visit Leto.
- [55:54]
B
Yeah.
- [55:54]
A
Yeah.
- [55:55]
B
But I think before that, in books one, two and three, there's never even the slightest reference to assist her being trained as a mentat.
- [56:05]
A
Yeah. And there does seem to be some animosity between Thu Fear and Jessica that I feel could be institutional. That, like the mentats broadly kind of don't vibe with the sisterhood, which the.
- [56:20]
B
Encyclopedia does actually establish that institutional beef.
- [56:25]
A
Yeah. So, yes, I think that is. That's probably pretty. Pretty spot on. I don't know that like, Frank, like. I don't know if you introduced a character who was in the background at some point and said they were a sisterhood mentat, I don't think that breaks very much. It's just. I think that's just how it shook out.
- [56:45]
B
Yeah. I did put a good observation.
- [56:47]
A
I did want to just quickly. Two points. So I. I had written one which is the. That, yes, the work in progress face dancer from the Tleilaxu. We covered that Theodosia is a toy as a Tleilaxu face dancer. I did want to point out something else that was said in those podcasts was that the foresty planet with the hunting party was Caladan. And I really appreciated the conversation because they at no point name it as Caladan in the show, but it is Caladan and Mintats of Dune when Tula goes and finds Ori Atreides. But also they had a discussion about, do we tell you that it's Caladan? And if we don't tell you it's Caladan, or if we do tell you it's Caladan, all of the book readers are going to go, oh, I know what's about to happen. Instead, they let it be a sort of mystery. And I really appreciated that in not only in watching the episode, but then in hindsight now knowing that it is in fact Caladan that we were on seeing more of. Caladan is very cool. And also I'm glad they didn't just say, here's two people on a horse. By the way, this is Caladan on that sweeping establishing shot of the forest. That really would have made it a lot less effective for me, I think.
- [58:09]
B
Yeah. Angie throws a comment out there That I quite agree with, Angie says. I think a lot of the plot in the show is led by ensuring we don't anticipate surprises, which I think is true and I think is also maybe a weakness. You know, I think we worked backwards from the Adoja Face Dancer bombshell drop rather than moving forward toward it, if that makes sense from like a writing standpoint. You know, we decided this bombshell drop had to happen in this particular moment or way and then kind of made sure the story got there however it got there, which I think is one of my criticisms of the larger storytelling choices. Okay, we are at an hour mark, folks. We try to keep these Q and A's pretty tight, but if there are other questions, toss them in chat. Now. We can try and blast through a last few questions here in the final moments of today's conversation. Thank you so much for hanging out. By the way, a lot of folks today. Shouldn't you all be in school or at work? Shouldn't I be at work?
- [59:23]
A
Technically? Yeah, maybe. I think Solvain had this question of the Mentats were formed in less than 100 years after the butler in Jihad. That's quite fast. How long was Dune and Spice discovered before the time span of the show? So in Brian's books, the thinking robot Erasmus basically takes this human child and goes, I wonder if I can make him a genius and makes Gilbertus Albans very, very smart person, the very first Mentat. And it is through everything that Erasmus does to Gilbertus Abens that Gilbertus Albans begins, is then capable to train and teach other Mentats. And he has the school established like a hundred years after 150 years, something like that. And he is now churning out Mentats, Mentat graduates, basically. So yes, it is very fast. And the explanation for that in Brian lore is that it is because a thinking machine is. Is participating in this experiment. So yes, regarding how long Dune and Spice were discovered before the time span of the show, that also gets a little bit to what I'm not exactly sure on because I haven't read the earlier prequels, but in the Sisterhood and Mentats, they're on Arrakis like they're make. They're mining Spice. There are Fremen characters like Ashanti who show up and are, you know, named and are kind of involved in stuff. There's a whole Saboteurs, Fremen as Saboteurs plotline in Mentats of Dune where they're like traveling the this space and going back to Arrakis and Like telling their Fremen friends about all these crazy planets they've seen. Which again, kind of breaks some stuff, but unclear. I don't know. I don't know what the earliest timeline looks like according to Brian Moore. Give me a few years and then I'll get back to you.
- [61:27]
B
Philip wants to know, do you think Vali will kill Lila?
- [61:31]
A
Ooh, that. That would be really interesting as like a final wedge between her and Tula. Because also if Lila is abomination, and let's say Lila, hypothetically, if Lila had like Dorothea take over, maybe that becomes a thing that Valia has to do. That would be interesting.
- [62:01]
B
Yeah, I don't think so, though. I think having access to Lila's other memories. If we go the abomination route, and even if she is like controlled by Dorothea, unless she poses a direct threat and like whips out a knife on Valia in revenge, if she's like possessed by Dorotea, I think Valia would kind of be like, no, she's still a tool we can use keep her alive. I think Valia is very cold blooded and critical like that and would actually be like, well, she kind of survived the agony, right? So like, let's keep her alive. And Tula, you disobeyed my orders, but this is an asset we can use. So it depends on which way Lila goes. You know, I think if Lila becomes like full on Dorothea controlled abomination, then I. I agree. We could see a showdown between Valia slash Doroteo slash Lila.
- [62:59]
A
Yeah, and I do. Like someone else had said that perhaps Lila is the reason and we've talked about this as well. If Lila becomes full on Abomination, maybe she's the reason why this is so feared. And maybe we're seeing the inception of these rules. That could be very compelling, that could be very cool. But we'll just have to wait and see. Max Silva says. I feel like there's some bluffing going on from the episode you've already seen. Lol. Shut up. No, no, no, you. No, you, Max Silva.
- [63:33]
B
No comment.
- [63:34]
A
No comment. I plead the fifth, your honor. Well, I think. Plead the fifth episode, your honor.
- [63:45]
B
Oh, one last thing I wanted to touch on. Sorry, this is one of the pre prepared questions I had. Maybe this is a good one to end on. We kind of talked about it before, but one of our patrons, Gabriel, had had a long message that I want to read that I couldn't even actually fit on the screen here. So I'm actually going to just pull it up on my computer. But I thought it was good. And it continues to sort of counterbalance our critiques, which I like to do, because, you know, we only present two opinions.
- [64:11]
A
Sure, yeah.
- [64:12]
B
And it's always fun to hear sort of a rebuttal of what our thoughts were. So our Patreon Gabriel wrote, prophecy takes place 15,000 or so years before heretics. It's not unreasonable to exercise some headcanon here and say that the Bene Gesserit either lost track that they once had a Tleilax who faced answer among them, or perhaps came to realize that it was a bad idea to ever let the Tleilax into the Sisterhood, hence creating a massive cultural rift. Moreover, we have no idea if the Tleilax at the time of prophecy hold to the same beliefs and culture as the ones we eventually see in Dune and subsequent novels in particular, like Heretics and Chapter S. Yeah, I think that's a deep. That's a. That's a good point.
- [65:01]
A
It's. Yeah, I mean, listen, I. I do appreciate the pushback. I think we are literally told that the Tleilax have intact Zen Sunni beliefs from before the Zen Sunni migration or during the Zinsuni migration in heretics. So we do have an idea that the Benny Tleilax at the time of Dune prophecy should be Zensunni already. They should be. You know, they should. They should have a lot of the same, actually the same things intact as they have later now. Regarding, like. And there's a thing in heretics. This is not a severe spoiler, but I guess mute for a couple seconds. Just if you're cautious, serial ghola lives would not be possible until hate in Dune Messiah awakens his memories, basically. So it is the point at Dune Messiah that we can expect the sort of like, final that's 10,000 years after this. So, yeah, I get that. Like, we're not going to see Gola technology being what it is in dune for sure. 10,000 years is a long time, and some of this stuff is possible. The pro. The other problem I have with this and the other problem I have generally with a lot of Brian Herbert's things, is that you are suggesting that the Bene Gesserit have lost track of something that's happened in their history. And the Bene Gesserit are famous for a few things, famously, in particular, they don't forget anything. In fact, they don't really. Yeah, they don't. They don't.
- [66:38]
B
Yeah.
- [66:39]
A
So that.
- [66:40]
B
That's my especially considering Rachela, Dorotea and Valia are reverent mothers. So their memories in particular will be passed down to future reverend mothers. There is just, like, no way a Reverend Mother in the future can't just, like, fact check that a Tleilaxu once worked.
- [66:58]
A
Yeah. And we have a character in Heretic, say, you've never infiltrated us. And like, well, you've never infiltrated us. And she's like, yo fair.
- [67:05]
B
Yeah. To a. To a Tleilaxu character. Yeah.
- [67:07]
A
So, you know, I mean, like, this.
- [67:10]
B
Was a choice, you know, And I think we're both not the lore wise, at least not the biggest fans of this choice to include a proto face dancer, early tele Laxley, whatever experiment, whatever it is, whatever Theodosia is as a character, whatever her backstory is, to include her as a sister feels like a bold direction to go. But I also want to recognize, like, Gabriel's point that we talked about this at the very top with, like, pre qualitis, but, like, 10,000 years is just a long time. It's long enough for, like, the sisterhood. This doesn't happen in the lore, but, like, hypothetically for the sisterhood to, like, go totally extinct and be wiped out and then also come back again. Because 10,000 years is a long time. And I guess that gives you sort of a blank check to quote unquote, do whatever you want. Introduce a face dancer within the sisterhood, because you can just, like, undo it later because enough time will have passed.
- [68:15]
A
Yeah.
- [68:16]
B
But it just doesn't. It doesn't sit right with me as a choice.
- [68:20]
A
Yeah. And like Alphonse points out, better headcanon than that. Is that it? This fact of a Tleilaxu among the sisterhood was, in fact, scrubbed out and only known to those who needed to know. So then much later, you know, it's. It's been kind of lost to the characters we meet.
- [68:38]
B
Yeah.
- [68:39]
A
And like, sure, yeah. But like, again, we're patching problems that didn't need. Need to exist.
- [68:43]
B
Right. You're twisting into a pretzel to explain yourself.
- [68:46]
A
And I'm a huge fan of pretzels. I love lore twisty tinfoil hat pretzels. But I'm a sucker for Auntie Anne, you know that. Sodium. I want it. But the. Generally, this is where I think it gets complicated, and it just didn't need to be this complicated because there was an existing pretty consistent lore that existed that I think most of us are pretty happy with that Brian and Kevin aren't now a couple of quick, quick, quick things. Sylvain Asks if anyone knows if dune lore 10,000 years means Earth years, standard years, or even though Earth is lost in the Dune encyclopedia, it makes it clear that the standard year is a little shorter, I think, but only by like a few days or something. It's like 20 days shorter than what we recognize as a calendar year on Terra. And that was just like by imperial decree for timekeeping reasons, so. Good question. And I think that I'm pretty spot on there, but might be it's in the ballpark of that. It's like it's similar to a standard year. Um, not exactly, but pretty close.
- [69:54]
B
Yeah.
- [69:55]
A
Zaptasia says chair dogs like most sci.
- [69:57]
B
Fi stories, you know. Yeah, just kind of assuming it's an Earth year. But you know, for folks who went to IMAX and watched. Why do I always forget the fucking name Interstellar? I'm always like, I love this cars too.
- [70:13]
A
I got you buddy cars too.
- [70:15]
B
Anyway, whatever. I was making a space time joke in there, but I lost it. Moving on. Septacious has a way better joke. Chair dogs in season two, please.
- [70:23]
A
Let's go, let's go. Sligs. The mixed slick is back. I say we wrap up because we have another episode to record. Talking about, oh, I don't know, something. So I. Do you want to handle the outro and then we'll say goodbye to chat?
- [70:44]
B
Sure. Let's hit on a quick outro here, folks. As always, a quick reminder before we wrap up and say goodbye. The two best ways to support us folks, is to become a patron. On patreon.com gomjabbar you get ad free episodes, you get bonus content, you get bloopers, you get early access to book clubs so you can read right along with us. You get those episodes as soon as they come out. And of course you get access to our wonderful, lovely Discord community where absolute goats like Takako exist, who are so kind and lovely. And we just have like the most positive, lovely community. And I couldn't ask for better. The other great way to support us is to check out our merch store on gomjabarshop.com Leo, a lot of that is your handiwork. Your incredible artistry and design work is on full display and you too could display that all over your body, dear listener. Yeah, so get yourself something nice. It's also holiday time, so, you know, get. Get the new Dune nerd in your life. Some beautiful Dune themed merch stocking stuffer or something.
- [71:51]
A
Yeah. And we love to hear from you. So if there are any details, we missed. If there's any thoughts, you have, follow up questions or anything, email us gomjabarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, Send us your questions, pictures of your cute pets, and the favorite, your favorite little details that you caught in episode four of Prophecy. We love to hear it all. And you know, I think even just these live streams is kind of a new thing for us that we're trying out. If you have thoughts about it, suggestions or feedback, let us know. We're always interested to hear from you.
- [72:24]
B
Yeah, we're doing our best to like keep these live streams a little looser but also structured so we aren't like meandering. So let us know how we can do that better. I should have our outro memorized, but I don't. I have to read it off the script every single time. So here it is for the 475th time.
- [72:42]
A
Well, friends, what's the third word? Well, friends, there. There is no. Wait. Well, friends, there is no. I just see, like what's the mess of? Well, friends, there is no.
- [72:56]
B
Uh huh, uh huh. Fuck real.
- [73:00]
A
There is no real ending. And this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us review on Apple podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the lower party podcast network on LordParty.com.
- [73:17]
B
Let'S go.
- [73:18]
A
And you're in a group. Select episodes of. This is the newer part though we have.
- [73:23]
B
Yeah.
- [73:24]
A
Select recordings to our YouTube. Whatever. Oh no.
- [73:29]
B
Or whatever.
- [73:30]
A
Or whatever.
- [73:31]
B
It's gone.
- [73:32]
A
All right. You can handle it.
- [73:33]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path. I'm keeping all of that. Yay.
- [73:42]
A
Nailed it.
- [73:43]
B
Nailed it.