Live Q&A: Dune Prophecy Episode 5 ft. NerdCookies

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast - Live Q&A: Dune Prophecy Episode 5 ft. NerdCookies

Release Date: December 21, 2024

Introduction

In the live Q&A session of "Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast," hosted by Abu and Leo from Lore Party Media, the hosts are joined by Elaine from NerdCookies to discuss the fifth episode of the HBO series "Dune Prophecy." The conversation delves into their impressions, critical analyses, and insights into how the show aligns—or diverges—from Frank Herbert’s original "Dune" novels. Released four to five days prior, episode five has sparked diverse opinions among fans, prompting an engaging and in-depth discussion.

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Reception of Episode 5

The trio begins by assessing their current feelings about episode five. Abu shares a mixed but generally positive stance, appreciating the episode's construction and visual appeal, yet expressing disappointment with certain plotlines.

Abu [02:01]: "I think episode five overall worked for me when I first watched it and when we first discussed it."

Leo echoes similar sentiments, enjoying the episode's strengths while hinting that knowledge of future episodes slightly colors his perspective.

Leo [04:26]: "I'm still really... enjoying it, for sure."

Elaine presents a more critical view, preferring episode four for its deeper connection to Frank Herbert's mythos and expressing frustration over episode five’s attempt to resolve previously established mysteries inadequately.

Elaine [03:08]: "Overall, I have very mixed feelings about this season so far... It seems very all over the place sometimes to me."

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Palace Intrigue Analysis

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the portrayal of palace intrigue compared to Frank Herbert's original work. The hosts critique the show’s simplified and sometimes inconsistent approach to political maneuvering, which lacks the nuanced stakes present in the books.

Elaine [12:23]: "Frank Herbert didn't... use the shock and awe of Revelations. He laid out his cards from the very beginning."

Abu highlights the absence of immediate stakes in the show’s political dynamics, making it difficult for viewers to invest emotionally.

Abu [20:00]: "Frank Herbert do an excellent job of establishing immediate stakes... This show doesn't establish, like, why. Why do I care if the Landsraad gets blown up."

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Character Discussions: Yui vs. Kieran, Francesca vs. Natalia

The conversation shifts to character development, particularly contrasting Yui and Kieran. Yui’s motivations and internal conflicts are lauded for their complexity, making him a compelling character.

Leo [14:27]: "I like Yui quite a bit, and I enjoyed his backstory."

In contrast, Kieran is criticized for lacking depth and clear motivations, leaving his actions seemingly disconnected from his past.

Elaine [05:55]: "The rebel plot isn't entertaining for me. That's the problem too."

The introduction of new characters like Francesca and Natalia also sparks debate. Francesca is praised for her immediate impact and clear motivations, while Natalia is seen as underdeveloped and inconsistent.

Elaine [21:35]: "I really liked Sister Francesca and her arrival. That felt very Dune to me... But Natalia isn't explained enough to have her be doing these pivotal things."

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Visuals and Production Quality

Despite narrative criticisms, the hosts unanimously commend the show’s visual elements. The set design, landscapes, and space sequences effectively capture the essence of Frank Herbert’s universe.

Elaine [04:16]: "Looks amazing. I just love the set design, the landscapes, the shots of space."

Abu [11:29]: "Visually, very strong. ... the visuals have been stunning."

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Viewer Questions and Answers

The Q&A segment addresses various viewer-submitted questions, ranging from thematic strengths to character motivations. One notable question by Elliot asks about the show’s strongest element:

Elliot: "What do you guys think the strongest element of the show is?"

Elaine responds by emphasizing the connection to Frank Herbert's themes and the mystical elements that spark her imagination.

Elaine [07:25]: "It's really strongest when it connects to those larger themes of the human condition... and the more mystical elements."

Another question by Justin probes the differences in palace intrigue handling between the show and the books. The hosts elaborate on how the show's portrayal lacks the intricate stakes that make political maneuvering engaging in the original novels.

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Thematic Criticisms

A recurring theme in the discussion is the show's tendency to literalize complex philosophical and mystical elements, detracting from the depth found in Frank Herbert’s writing. The hosts argue that the show often simplifies or over-explains concepts like fear, reducing them to mere plot devices.

Elaine [54:19]: "They literalized the litany against fear. It becomes this plot device to fight a literal violence."

Leo adds that while exploring themes like human potential and emotional control is essential, the show's execution sometimes undermines these by being overly explanatory.

Leo [55:04]: "It's about the journey. It's not about the shock and awe of the moment."

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Speculative Theories: The God Emperor

The guests engage in speculative discussions about teasers hinting at the God Emperor’s eventual rise, a pivotal figure in the "Dune" universe. They analyze visual cues and narrative hints that suggest future plot developments, linking them to overarching themes like the Golden Path.

Elaine [48:26]: "It's the fact that it's these blue eyes connected to the images of the sandworm... that sparks the theories about the God Emperor."

However, Abu remains skeptical about the depth of these references, attributing the show's direction more to Brian Herbert’s influences than to the original mysticism.

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Future of the Show: Season 2 and Beyond

The discussion extends to the potential trajectory of "Dune Prophecy," with the hosts expressing hope for a more cohesive and character-driven second season. They lament the show's initial planning as a spin-off before the success of Denis Villeneuve’s films, suggesting that a unified creative vision from the outset might have mitigated many of the current issues.

Elaine [29:48]: "If from the beginning, like there was that one showrunner that with a singular creative vision from the start, I think a lot of my issues would have been like resolved."

They also debate the show's possibility to survive its production challenges and maintain its appeal to both hardcore fans and newcomers.

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Audience Engagement and Promotions

Towards the end, Elaine promotes her channels, encouraging listeners to follow her on YouTube and Twitter for more "Dune Prophecy" content. Leo and Abu reciprocate by highlighting their own platforms, fostering a community of engaged "Dune" enthusiasts.

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Conclusion

The Live Q&A offers a comprehensive critique of "Dune Prophecy" Episode 5, balancing appreciation for its visual grandeur with criticism of its narrative execution and character development. Through thoughtful analysis and enthusiastic speculation, Abu, Leo, and Elaine provide valuable insights for "Dune" fans navigating the complexities of adapting Frank Herbert’s legacy to the screen. Their discussion underscores the challenges of remaining faithful to a beloved source material while innovating for contemporary audiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu [02:01]: "I think episode five overall worked for me when I first watched it and when we first discussed it."
• Elaine [07:25]: "It's really strongest when it connects to those larger themes of the human condition... and the more mystical elements."
• Abu [20:00]: "Frank Herbert do an excellent job of establishing immediate stakes... This show doesn't establish, like, why. Why do I care if the Landsraad gets blown up."
• Elaine [54:19]: "They literalized the litany against fear. It becomes this plot device to fight a literal violence."

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For More Episodes and Insights:

• Subscribe to NerdCookies: Follow Elaine on YouTube at NerdCookies and NerdCookies Rants for more "Dune Prophecy" theories and rants.
• Follow Gus and Leo: Connect with Abu and Leo on Twitter (@Lore_Party) and Instagram (@Lore_Party) for updates and select video versions on their YouTube channel.
• Engage with the Community: Leave reviews on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and explore other shows on the Lore Party podcast network at Lore Party Media.

Closing Note:

Leo [78:22]: "Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path."

Transcript

[Leo]

Oh, hey, good morning.

[Elaine]

Hello. Good morning.

[Abu]

Leo. Elaine. Morning. How are you both?

[Elaine]

Great.

[Leo]

Doing great. Yeah.

[Abu]

Elaine, thank you for being here. So exciting.

[Elaine]

Yeah, thank you.

[Leo]

Elaine. I feel like I haven't had a chance to talk to you recently. How you been?

[Elaine]

I'm great. Yeah. Thank you both for inviting me. Excited to talk about and nerd out about doing some more.

[Abu]

Yeah, as always.

[Elaine]

As always.

[Leo]

Literally yesterday I talked to my parents, just like regular like catch up call and they were like, oh, did you want to talk about Dune for a second? And I was like, oh, you know me. You know me. It's always fun, always fun to do.

[Elaine]

You have to ask.

[Leo]

Do you have to ask? It's like they don't even understand.

[Elaine]

That's great.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gam Jabbar. Your guide to the iconic world of Dune will be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name's Leo.

[Abu]

And Leo, today we're joined by Elaine from Nerd Cookies. Yeah, Elaine, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Elaine]

Yeah, great to be here.

[Abu]

Are you just as excited as we are to talk about Dune Prophecy Episode 5?

[Elaine]

I'm always excited to talk about.

[Leo]

Dude, hell yeah. Correct answer. Now just for some quick housekeeping, today does contain spoilers for episode five of Dune Prophecy. Make sure you've all seen that already and otherwise we have questions from chat. We have questions pre prepared, but I want to start off just getting a temperature gauge from both of you. How are we feeling? So it's now been like four or five days since the episode five hit the public airwaves. Abu, it's been like a week and a half since you've seen it. How are you feeling on episode five?

[Abu]

You know, I think I still appreciate that it. This was a solid episode. I thought it was well constructed. There were some interesting moments. Everything on Wallach 9 is certainly capturing my attention. I continue to be disappointed by the palace intrigue stuff. I continue to greatly dislike the Kieran rebel stuff. But I think episode five overall worked for me when I first watched it and when we first discussed it. Leo, you and I together and now sort of a week later, I think I feel, I feel about the same. I will say we, we should just preface today's live show with the fact that, Leo, you and I have seen episode six. We will not be saying a single thing about it, but that does color my perception a little bit of the show. As a whole, but obviously that is not for today's conversation.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

That'll be for next week.

[Leo]

Right. Okay.

[Abu]

What about you, Elaine? How are you feeling about episode five now that we've had a few days to let it simmer?

[Elaine]

Well, I liked episode four better than this one. There was more of Frank Herbert's mythos. There were, like, in episode four that I enjoyed more, and episode five was more just trying to, I think, wrap up some of the mysteries and that were laid before. Overall, I have very mixed feelings about this season so far, and it hasn't changed with. With each episode and hasn't changed with this one either. There are things that I. And elements and characters that I do enjoy and. Yeah, but just, like, overall, again, just mixed, mixed feelings. Things I like and see incredible potential with and, you know, some deep issues that I have. Just. It seems very all over the place sometimes to me. And it's just been the par for the course this whole season for me so far, but. Looks amazing. I just. I love the set design, the landscapes, the shots of space. It's like the. Visually, I have no issues with it. It looks beautiful. It looks like Frank Herbert's world to me.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

But, yeah, that's bad.

[Abu]

That's fair. I think. Elaine, you and I are certainly in the same boat there. Leo, how about you, though? It's been a few days since episode five. Where are you at now?

[Leo]

I'm still really. I'm enjoying myself. I think you're spot on, Elaine. I think there's, like, glimmers of real greatness in the show. There's, like, little moments where I'm like, oh. Oh, fuck, that was incredible. And then even the bad stuff, I'm still kind of in the Dune universe somewhat when it doesn't feel like an episode of Green Arrow on cw, you know, when it doesn't feel kind of like a shallow CW show. It has a lot of good stuff, and I'm really enjoying it, for sure. I think episode five introduced us to some new elements. We had Taboo. We had some, as you were saying, Elaine? Some, like, resolutions of some kind of open questions. And I appreciated some of that. I do think that there's some, like, opportunities, like, we didn't see any of Theodosia, and I'm like, you've introduced this really cool character who now we know is a face dancer. And again, as a Dune fan. Do I like that? No, not even remotely. But, oh, what a cool storytelling element. You've got this character who can shapeshift into whatever, and then no sign of her that we're aware of. And maybe one of the characters will turn out to have been her. But I think that's one of those elements where I'm like. I feel like at the end of episode five, I feel like some of these things could have been handled differently in a way that I would have liked more, but that's generally where I'm sitting.

[Elaine]

Yeah. The revelations so far have just given me more questions. They really haven't, in a satisfying way, resolved anything with each new revelation, because I still have questions about Desmond Hart. I still have a ton of questions about Theodosia and Yes, even what they have revealed. Well, that doesn't really answer those things that I was really asking and wondering about. How did he survive on Arrakis?

[Abu]

Right.

[Elaine]

So, yeah, totally.

[Abu]

Lots of questions still left. And it's the penultimate episode, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We have one more to go in the season.

[Leo]

Or it's sort of, you know, we have a lot of questions about Desmond, and they're like the son of Tula and Ori, and we're like, whoa. Okay. Well, no, I still have questions. You've answered. Yeah, you've answered something that was maybe tangential to and.

[Abu]

Right. That might be related.

[Leo]

It might be. We'll see. I mean, I don't think that explains the Omnius plague, so we'll. We'll just have to find out.

[Abu]

Yeah. Well, we have a ton of questions already in chat. Shall we.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Throw some of them on screen and address them. Let's do it real quick. I think while we're. While we're on the topic of what we like and dislike about the show, I think Elliot throws up a really good question here. Elliot asks. Just wanted to ask what you guys think the strongest element of the show is. I think, despite the show's strengths, it's easy for Dune fans to end up talking more critically about it in general. What do you think, Elaine? Strongest element of the show?

[Elaine]

For me personally, because I'm more towards the. I'm a orthodox Frank Herbertarian when it comes to Dune.

[Abu]

That is my religious belief as well, actually.

[Leo]

Only religion I've got.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

So for me personally, as that's. That's Dune, to me, is what connects to Frank Herbert's mythos. I think it's really strongest when it connects to those larger themes of the human condition, of advancing humanity, and just the more mystical elements. So when it teases the God Emperor and the overall message of what the Golden Path is gonna ultimately lead to humanity, salvation, like teasing those things and that message of wresting humanity from all means of control, I think is very fascinating. And there's, like, elements that. And same thing with the spice agony I or agony ritual.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

That they showed in the other memory, threat of possession. Those. I loved seeing that visually represented. So for me, yeah, everything that connects in a way where I can theorize and just sparks my imagination and its connection to Frank Herbert's mythology. That's. That's where I think it's strongest. It's. It's rooted in just equal measures of pseudoscience and. And myth and just everything that I love about Dune itself. So. And visually, I guess I'll throw that in there too. Visually, it's amazing.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. I'll say that. I think, you know, Abu, a lot of our conversation, especially around episode five, I think the thing that it does best is the Valiatullah dynamic and the writing around those two characters and how those two actresses are bringing those characters to life when they're on screen. I'm loving it, and I'm really enjoying that. I like Elaine. I mean, I love the Dune stuff. I'm just enjoying the Dune stuff when it doesn't directly conflict with Frank Herbert, my lord and savior Messiah, who can do no wrong, as I'm sure he. As I'm sure he's very happy in his grave to be put on a pedestal like that. But no, his writing in his world. I loved what Alt Shift X said in our collective livestream a little while back, where he said Frank Herbert asked questions and Brian Herbert seems focused on answering questions. I think that's. He was able to ask questions in a way that continued to get you curious and interested and. And not ever have a solid answer, but still be very interested in seeing how the world connected. And then he also managed not to tread on his own feet too much. And I think when the show is doing that stuff, that's where Dune fans are going to be super critical. I also just want to say, stepping back, I think Elliot brings up a great point that we are going to be, as fans of Dune and who have loved Dune deeply, we are going to be some of the most critical people probably of this show, because I think layman folk are just going to be like, oh, yeah, it's fun. My dad said. He's like, there's worse. There's worse shows. I was like, all right, high praise. Yeah. But, you know, it's like, even he knows quite a bit more about Dune, I think, than the average person. Because of the conversations we've had. So generally, I do appreciate that lens. It's like, if you want kind of the harshest criticisms, go to the dune community, where we really know this stuff from hours and thousands of conversations and stuff. But I think the writing around Tula and Valya is my favorite piece of the show. And I think part of that's because it's the most accessible and the most, like, I feel the most emotionally invested in that, and that's what I want to see more of. And then the dune facade, the dune stuff that sits on top of all of that, that they are reverend mothers, that they have other memory, these other things, is very cool, but is not the reason why I'm invested in their scenes. So that's kind of where I'm falling. What about you, Abu? What do you think the strongest element of the show is?

[Abu]

I agree with what both of you said. I don't have much to add there. I think visually, very strong. I think when the show focuses on Vali and Tula, especially young Valia and young Tula, it's at its best and it's firing on all cylinders. And I think it begins to lose its way when it. When it loses focus on those two characters and starts to shift focus toward other characters. So I've been enjoying those parts of the show and the visuals. Again, Elaine, I agree with you, have been stunning.

[Leo]

They've done.

[Abu]

They've done an amazing job visually.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think there's actually a great question from Justin here as well. I want to throw this up for us. Justin asks, what do you think is the difference between the palace intrigue and prophecy from Frank Herbert's palace intrigue? What makes Frank Herbert's Dune palace intrigue unique? That's a good question.

[Leo]

That's a good question. My first thought is that we think about the traitor plot of Dune and Yui being the traitor. We learn very early on that he's the traitor. But the difference in Frank's book is that we get a lot of Yui's internal thoughts that are compelling. His. The love of his life. This person has been captured by the Harkonnens. It's like, this is what motivates him. It's very specific, and it's also understandable. And then as Abu, as you and I have talked about many times, I'm still kind of in the camp that, like, Yui didn't really betray House Atreides, Yui took action. As House Atreides had already gone directly into the trap. Yui took Action to save the heir of House Atreides and also Jessica, the strongest advisor in House Atreides. So, like, I think that all, like, how much did Yui betray them? Is Yui a traitor? What is his motivations with Moana and House Harkonnen? Did they really win? All of those questions are very interesting and I think were very easy for me to get invested in very quickly. And Kieran, on the other side of the spectrum, has, as you said, and I think it was like, episode two or three. He's talked about, like, they've had their boots on the neck, our necks for long enough, and we want spice and we don't have any. And we're. And it's very general. It's like, I don't really understand Kieran's direct attachment to all of this. Like, we now know that his father is Albert Atreides, survived the atrocity, which is to say Tula. But how does that color his participation in this rebellion? Like, what. What does all of that mean? And I just don't feel invested in any of that because I don't connect really, to the characters. And I think that's the big difference. I like Yui quite a bit, and I liked Yui and I enjoyed his. His backstory. And I don't feel that with Kieran. What about you? Do you have any thoughts?

[Elaine]

I totally agree with your thoughts there. And we talked about this on Quinn's Idea Stream, most recently about how starkly different the writing style is when it comes to the plots and the intrigue from the show to Frank Herbert's style. And Frank Herbert didn't. Wasn't really into the shock and awe of shock like Revelations. It was. He let the reader know what the deal is. Right from the beginning. He wanted you to know who the traitor was within House Atreides because he wanted you to see the entire journey and from the beginning, be invested and seeing how the characters evolved through the story, knowing all of that. So he laid out his cards from the very beginning. And in Dune Messiah, same thing. He tells you what the conspiracy. What's the plan? Because it's not about the shock and awe of those revelations. It's about the journey. So when you compare that to when the Baron is revealed as Lady Jessica's father, it doesn't play out like the moment of, like, Darth Vader, I am your father. That's not the importance of what's going on there. It is the fact that Paul knows that fact that his ancestry, it is just another stepping stone in the character's evolution towards becoming the Kwisatz Haderach. What stands out to Jessica in that moment is the fact that Paul knows that. The fact that she's just in awe. Oh, he really, truly could be the one. So that's why it's so starkly different to me watching this show with so many mystery boxes and relying on that instead of. And even with the plots and the intrigue. When you compare that to what Feyd. How. How Feyd Rautha was going to betray his uncle. It was like this huge thing. It started out with the gladiator fight and them trying to maneuver things so that his slave master, Fade's loyal slave master, could get into the position to assassinate Baron later. It's so intricate, even though it's. Yeah. So this is much more simplified in this show, and some work more than others. The rebel plot, I'm not really getting that at all. It's very simplified and doesn't really feel like Dune as far as how the mysteries play out and the rebel plot line. It doesn't. Yeah, It's. It's a little starkly different there.

[Abu]

Right.

[Elaine]

From Frank Herbert's style.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I do love what you're saying about, like, the Harkonnen reveal, because the story of Dune is Paul figuring out who he is among all of these galactic plans. That question of identity is central to Paul's character. Is he Fremen? How much is he Fremen? Is he Atreides? Is he Harkonnen? And narrowly, like, navigating those pillars is part of his journey as a young man kind of finding himself in this crazy circumstance. So that's. That's really well said. I love that idea of, like, it's about the journey. It's not about the shock and awe of the moment. Right. That's great.

[Abu]

Yeah. Agreed.

[Elaine]

But I do get that it has to be exciting.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Elaine]

You know, to watch that may not be, like, exciting for. Because I can. Because I think Villeneuve's movies just completely sidestep the traitor plotline. But it was still very exciting to see. So there's a balance to be struck there.

[Leo]

Yeah, always. I mean, adaptation, that's. That's the challenge, too. When we were talking about the club, it's like, it doesn't feel like Dune. It's like, okay, but then what do you do to make it feel like Dune? Is it the writing that we address? Do we put more set things? Glow globes? Is that Dune enough for you? Dune fan? You know, and I think there's ways of addressing that, but it is a balancing act. And if it's all about the Dune details, then it's just you're reading the Dune encyclopedia. And if it's all about the character and the story and no Dune details are mentioned at all, then you're just reading a different book or like you're just reading a good work of fiction.

[Elaine]

I mean, unfortunately, the rebel plot isn't entertaining for me. That's the problem too. I can condone certain things and choices made for more action and more of a fast paced kind of thing that really keeps you engrossed, but I'm not getting that either. So it's. Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

I think all I want to add to that because you both made excellent points there in response to Justin's question. The only thing I want to add to that, specifically, when it comes to palace intrigue, I think the books and Frank Herbert do an excellent job of establishing immediate stakes. This person is important because XYZ or this person is betraying this person because XYZ and I have spent basically this whole season of television of Dune prophecy not really caring what happens to any of these people in the palace because I don't really know why they're important beyond their titles. You have to establish what the fallout of something happening to these people could be. The stakes, right before things happen to them. That is how palace intrigue plays out. Think of any pivotal moment in Game of Thrones. It's not pivotal because a thing happened. It is pivotal because we know, oh, shit, what happens next. That that is where intrigue is powerful. When you do, like political and palace style, like intrigue storytelling. And this show doesn't establish, like, why. Why do I care if the Landsraad gets blown up? Who are these people? Obviously I, as a Dune lore fanatic, know that, but within the context of the five episodes we have, you haven't explained that.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So before you blow them up, and before I care if any of them get blown up, you have to explain who they are, what they are, what the stakes are, and why it's important they don't get blown up.

[Elaine]

But a point in the show's favor. I really liked Sister Francesca and her arrival. That felt very Dune to me. It felt very Lady Fenring mixed with little Lady Jessica in there. The way she's introduced reminded me of how Lady Jessica entered into the banquet hall of that first banquet scene in Dune. You know, she's just so striking, but she's also so adept in political maneuvering and her scenes with Constantine Made me like his character because he was a very weak character for me. But their dynamic together was so strong because her presence and charisma was so well in that moment. But also it gave Constantine depth to his character, because before that, there's nothing really going on there. So that if I wish they'd introduced her sooner, it could have. It could have been nice to have that relationship between the two of them starting out at least. At least episode two or something, to have her maybe after Kasha's death, have Francesca come in from the start and. Because I think it really elevated Constantine in that moment, and when she's not with him, he kind of reverts back to the CW mold for me. But I can see the potential there. Capitalize on that intrigue and what her presence meant to the empress's daughter, you know, that power play there going on. So that was where it was strongest for me as far as the palace intrigue.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[Leo]

Really quickly, because I did, to your point, Abu, earlier, like, I think another great example that we got in episode five is Havoco Carino announcing to this table of all of his, like, closest family and aides, our sword master was a traitor for years. And then, good job, son. And it's like, is it. Does that not raise other red flags? Like, if you can't trust that.

[Abu]

Not a bombshell.

[Leo]

He's not a bombshell. Is he, like, your number three guy in the whole fucking thing? And he turned out to have, like, been part of the. I'm going to kill you all. Like, I think you're right. Like, what do we care about? The lands are getting blown up. Unless you're a crazy Dune fanatic. But then I'm also like, this is the first time that I'm aware of that we're seeing a sword master betraying their, like, duke or their liege or their emperor or whoever. And I'm like, whoa, I feel like we need more stakes. We need, like, we needed a line about how he. This person who was trusted with my daughter's safety for years, you know, and we need to do an investigation. I don't know. Like, we just didn't get anything from that. He was like, yeah, good job, Constantine. High five. It's like, okay. So anyway, just wanted to toss that.

[Abu]

A person that, like, most people know, she's romantically involved. Like, her brother knows, her mom knows. Like, I feel like, at least around the palace, you kind of know these two are maybe.

[Leo]

I mean, you can't get away from the Fucking sex sounds just slap echoing through the hallways. It's.

[Abu]

Right. Well, speaking of sex and romance, I want to throw this up. Aakko said, lots of romantic bombshells in episode five. Francesca havoco, Natalia slash Desmond. And then Angie responded and said, francesca and Javago is my new ship. I'm curious, Elaine, Leo, give us your hottest couple of the show, even if we haven't seen them be a couple on screen. What's the best pairing on the show based purely on sex appeal?

[Elaine]

That's a good question because I don't really like most of the relationships here.

[Leo]

Yeah, we'll make a new one.

[Elaine]

You know, I think. I think the Javico Francesca is the most like Dune. Like, to me it is very. She's the concubine. She, you know, has provided, like him a son. And so that's. There's some. That's interesting that there's more. You know, it just speaks to the feudal nature of this imperium. And it's. It's interesting to. To see that dynamic. But yeah, I like that it's still rooted in what makes Dune Dune, which is that she's, you know, imprinting on him and it's for the sisterhood's agenda ultimately. And you don't know whether or not she has true feelings for him or not. I like that you don't know that for sure. Yeah, yeah, I.

[Abu]

Manipulation. How much? Genuine.

[Elaine]

Yeah, I think that's the best relationship, I think. But it's. It's interesting because of the implications of manipulation and where her true loyalties lie. Like, that's interesting. That's Dune. Yeah, Ish for sure.

[Leo]

I am. All right.

[Abu]

Leah, who are you shipping?

[Leo]

I was going to second what Elaine said. I think Javico and Francesca, they have the most mature, like, feeling of intimacy that is the most exciting to me. So that. But along the lines of like, joke answers, I for sure am on the same line as Spinks, Sutani Spinks, Otani, Desmond and Shai Hulud is a very funny couple.

[Abu]

We have some incredible joke answers. Dustin in particular said Kevin J. Anderson.

[Leo]

Kevin Jadison, Brian Urban is the best couple. I. I think also just on hotness alone, I think like Ori and Ori and Constantine would be a really hot couple. I think they would. I think they would pretty high on this game. The bring the roof down. Or we could do like Michaela and Nazir. I think Mikayla and Nazir would be like so smoldering. The souk doctor with the bright blue eyes and the dark hair and Then Mikayla just looking great. That would be a pretty smoldering couple too. Yeah. Yeah, that's really funny.

[Abu]

That got me. Great job, Justin. Okay, there's a lot. I'm sorry folks, I'm scrolling back through. We missed a ton of great questions here.

[Leo]

Yeah, I was going to say very early on we got a question from Gola. When did you guys first get into Dune? Was it from book, movies or tv? And we can keep these answers short, Elaine. I don't actually know that I remember your answer to this. How'd you get into Dune, man?

[Elaine]

It was. I don't remember how old I was. I was maybe around 12ish. That's like one of the first universes where I discovered myself that I wasn't introduced by someone else. It was a very intriguing book cover and I think it just kind of stood out for me from the shelf.

[Leo]

Nice.

[Elaine]

Yeah. Book first and it took me a while to get through the whole like six book series of Frank Herbert's series. But yeah, the first book was amazing. I loved it. And then not too far after that the sci fi miniseries was coming out and that was. Went into those other books. So spread into that. Yeah, it's been so long. But as a kid. Yeah, that's great.

[Leo]

Avu, what about you?

[Abu]

Same thing. I picked it up at the library as a kid. I was a big sci fi reader and I still am and I loved the first book, read it as a kid, kind of forgot about it for a long time and didn't read the latter books until well into adulthood. But obviously now for the last four years it's been nothing but Dune in my life and so my obsession has only grown.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But I found them originally as a teenager and reread them in adulthood and had a great time.

[Leo]

Yeah, I had, I had seen the lynch movie as a child and then at some point I saw I might have read the first book but there was a period where I was trying to get all the score on the like reading tests. I don't know if you all had that in like high school you could like join an advanced readers club and you would get like points if you read enough books and whatever. So I like sped read a bunch of books and this might have been on the list but truly didn't really dive into the universe until you texted me Abu. And now it's just been the last four years and I'm a very simple, soft brained fella. So I have to only pretty much read Dune or else I get confused. So it's been mostly Dune for the last four years. I can read some fantasy and it doesn't get too mixed up. But I think I read Andy Weir book and I was like, what a cool toy. Lax. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, sweet.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I saw a good question from. Oh, Madison Thompson at 11:13 asked, knowing that the EPS and writers room listen to Gom Jabbar, do we have plans within plans to influence the show? I would just say quickly to that, Madison. If anything, I want future seasons. If they listen to us, and I guess they do, I want future seasons to really focus on the human storytelling and I want them to focus on like that's how I. That's how I want to influence the future seasons. Don't worry about the Dune. The Dune can be there and it can be part of the story and everything. But like the thing that will bring people back is the human characters and how they interact with each other and their motivations and how. And if the Dune plot elements are plot motivators, are catalysts for things, they have to make sense. And if they don't make sense, it's going to turn off not only casual viewers, but also Dune fans. And that's the worst case scenario if you have no one who's having fun. But that's my thoughts regarding that. Abu, what do you think? Plans within plans.

[Abu]

Just give me that HBO check and hire me as a consultant. That's all I'm trying to do here.

[Leo]

Yeah, I would do it.

[Abu]

That's my response to that.

[Elaine]

Yeah, I would take that job.

[Leo]

Yeah, I was gonna say, like, hell yeah. You're also out there on the. But you have much more traction on YouTube. I'm sure they watch your videos all the time.

[Elaine]

Oh, I don't know. But I wish. You know, one of the things that is my biggest issue with the show is I could see the production chaos that was going on on screen. I could see different creators visions because this was originally Denis Villeneuve's and John Spade's were attached to the show. Then there was a couple other different showrunners before Allison Shapker was brought on who is, I mean she has a great resume when it comes to successful science fiction shows. So I feel like if from the beginning, like there was, you know, that one showrunner that with a singular creative vision from the start, I think a lot of my issues would have been like resolved. But I mean, this is, this is why. Yeah, I wanted season two because I feel like it would be given that shot to just have that singular creative Vision, maybe cut the fat of what doesn't work and focus and expand upon what really does, where it's really strongest. I think it could have the potential to be a truly amazing show. But yeah, if you're listening, I mean.

[Abu]

It'S like, honestly speaking, it's kind of a small miracle the show even happened.

[Leo]

Yeah, right.

[Abu]

It came out. We've been covering for years the massive production issues this show has run into. The showrunners coming and going, directors coming and going, lead actors, the original Valia and Tula coming and going. You know, like, yeah, there have been huge shakeups. The types of shakeups that frankly like kill a show. Right. Don't even let it stand on its two feet, let alone run a race. And here we got a six episode show that has a lot of redeeming qualities to it. So it is a bit of a small miracle that it happened at all.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Given the rocky road to get there.

[Leo]

If anything, like even if we just smooth out all those production hiccups, imagine how much more cohesive it could feel and how much, you know, maybe, maybe that would solve some of our complaints. I do think Brian and Kevin's involvements are probably not helping some of the things that I complain about.

[Elaine]

But I always thought that it was a. I always thought it was a premature that they announced the spin off before the movies had even premiered yet. So because it was as part of HBO Max's new streaming service, that's what they announced it. We're having a new streaming service and we're going to have this new content for it. And that was in 2019. So only like two years later the actual movie came out. And to me it just felt a little bit premature from the start in its conception. And I feel like they needed the movies needed to establish themselves first and then from there, which they wanted to connect to those movies. So yeah, I feel like they kind of had to wait until, to get going, until they had that creative vision to start with as their foundation. And it does look like Vilna's interpretation visually. It is, it does connect. But yeah, I think from the start it just seemed like it was just purely to announce the Mac streaming service launch. And maybe from the start they didn't have like an idea and they kind of just tried to do everything and I think it's just trying to do too much in the end. A lot of great potential though. So hopefully season two will happen. We'll see.

[Abu]

Yeah, well, kind of related to that, there's a question from John Curtis, from Earlier in the stream, John said, I wonder if the original premise Sisterhood of Dune focused more on Voli and Tula and they decided to add more elements, kind of speaking to the production changes and creative changes of the show historically. I do wonder because the show was originally titled Sisterhood for many years and then it got changed to Dune Prophecy. I have a feeling that the show was very Valiatoula focused to begin with. And then perhaps because of the massive success of Dune Part one and Part two, my gut, I have nothing to back this up. So, you know, take this with a grain of salt, but my gut says someone walked in the room and said, we need an Atreides in this show. And someone walked in and said, we need more Game of Thrones in this show. And honestly, those two things, in my opinion, are the weakest elements of this show. That. That is trying to do those things. I kind of wish we had. I. I don't know. I am deeply curious what the original Sisterhood premise was.

[Leo]

Yeah, for sure.

[Elaine]

Well, yeah, I think when they announced it, I think they did say it was a prequel, that it. But it was based off of Frank Herbert's world. I don't think from the start that they said it was a Sisterhood of Dune adaptation. I think that came a little bit later with the announcement of the title of the show, Dune Sisterhood. And yeah, I just feel like it's trying to do that. It's trying to do the schools of Dune adaptation, but it's also trying to tell a new story. So it's not too much tied to that, but it's also trying to connect to Frank Herbert's larger themes, grand scale ideas, while also in keeping with the Villeneuve film interpretation of his universe. So that in itself, me just saying it like, that's a lot to do. Yeah, it's too much with Frank Herbert's world. I don't know. It's already complicated enough in itself just with like one linear story. So, yeah, when they said they were doing past and present storylines, that kind of. Oh, that worries me because the back and forth. I don't know that always that if you're not. If it's not done right or executed well, it could be jarring and can mess up the momentum. And that's what I'm struggling with too.

[Leo]

That's true. That's a good point. I think, you know, Abu to push back a little bit. Like, even if we only focused on Tula and Valya, big chunks of their motivation as characters that exist within Brian's world are Vori and Atreides showing up. And so they're being an Atreides, even if we stripped it back to being called Sisterhood and maybe being a little bit closer to what that source material looked like. The existence of Atreides and even now that I've read Mentats and most of Navigators, it's like, even Ori Atreides and Willem Atreides are these like big pieces of the plot. But I also hear what you're saying about, like, we've talked a lot about how the different scenes feel like they're written by very different people with very different intentions and how that like, that can't be the goal. It can't be like, yeah, here's a. Here's a great idea, guys. Every scene, different writer, different quality. It's gonna be great. Everyone's gonna love this.

[Abu]

Which is shockingly what it feels like sometimes. Absolutely Experiencing that final end result, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah. So I don't know. In some ways I'm really glad. Like in Sisterhood of Dune, there is Anari Idaho, whose last name is Idaho, because of course you need to have an Idaho person and you need to have an Atreides. And it's. That is. That is all over Brian's books. It's just always these fucking.

[Abu]

It's the Skywalker problem taken to the nth degree.

[Leo]

To the nth degree. We have these set. He has a dice, like a ten sided dice with names on it and he goes, new character. And he throws the dice and he's like, john, how? What? And it's like, great. Glad you. So anyway, so, yeah, yeah, very interesting.

[Abu]

This is a fun speculative question. Sphinx. Sorry, there's like a fucking flying here. Sphinx. If you did have the real opportunity to consult on season 2, would you want it to be limited in scope so you can still be surprised by the series or have card plunge and spoilers be damned? So I guess, sort of in a general sense, what would be on our wish list for season two?

[Elaine]

Oh, well, it's hard to say without seeing the finale. I don't know.

[Leo]

It's hard to say having seen the finale.

[Abu]

Having seen it.

[Elaine]

You've seen it. Yeah, that's right.

[Leo]

Well, as I understand the question, because what I'm understanding from Spinks question is, let's say we were brought on as lore consultants. Would we want to be kept at arm's length so that we could enjoy the series and be surprised by things, or would we want to be like in the writer's room helping to craft even the big plot twists that we then wouldn't get to enjoy as viewers. And I absolutely would want to be in the writers room because. Because guaranteed. Like, listen, as much as I love to be surprised by things and to not know. And I'm very much the person who, like, if I know I'm buying a game or seeing a movie, I will avoid everything about it because I just want the whole experience to be as immersive and new to me as possible. I still think that this is like the sci fi miniseries which someone had mentioned. Underrated. I agree. I loved it. Fun hats forever. I think Dune is this like legacy thing. And if I had any chance to help empower and improve and make better the thing that's being made in the Dune universe, fuck my experience. That. That doesn't matter at all compared to, I think the making something that feels great for. For long term fans and also for people who are newer to it. So I think that's kind of where I fall on that. Because if we interpret the question the other way. Yeah. It's kind of hard to say considering.

[Elaine]

Frank Herbert didn't care about spoilers. No, neither do I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

He has characters say spoilers in the second chapter for like the fifth book. So, you know. Yeah, true.

[Abu]

And I agree with Zaptages. Chair docs in or I'm out.

[Leo]

Chair dogs and sligs.

[Elaine]

I want to see Poison Snoopers. I want to see like the technology in this is way too shiny and it's. I don't know, it's just kind of weird from where we are at this time. I want to see people more desperate to develop technology with no thinking in it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

Not a thinking hunter seeker. An actual hunter seeker.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Leo]

Completely agree. Yeah. Distaff Kieran gets a pug. This must happen now. Be excellent. That would be really, really great.

[Abu]

I also, way too late in the game, just realized I can star certain comments and set them aside so we can revisit them.

[Elaine]

That's nice.

[Abu]

I just learned that trick. Love it. Okay, so here's When I starred from earlier, Julian wanted to ask. It bothers me a lot. Or I guess this is maybe an observation. Anyway, it bothers me a lot that Natalia is so into a religion from Arrakis. Why? How would a sophisticate of the Empire even know or care about some primitive rabble's beliefs? Which I think is a fair criticism.

[Leo]

Yeah. And that also goes to John Curtis. Also has a question from 1138. The Fremen secret ways seem to be well known and have they even been established at this point in history? And, yeah, that's kind of the challenge here. There's stuff that in Frank Herbert's first book, a lot of people just don't know anything about Arrakis, including people like Mohiam, who in theory is one of the highest level Bene Gesserit, who should know just about anything that is relevant to the Emperor. And also Jessica, who is, you know, a very prominent part of the breeding program. And I get like, you only get told what you need to know. But this does break some of my immersion is the fact that everyone knows that the great worms of. You know, Havoco's vocabulary, I liked. He claims he was eaten by a worm. And it's like, they'll feed me to the worm. Like, I like his handling of it. Even the fact that they know about the giant worms. Like, I don't know, maybe. I don't know. It's fine. But the fact that everyone's like, oh, yeah, Shai Hulud sick. Love that God of the Fremen, sophisticated people who live out in the desert. Yeah, it breaks my immersion.

[Elaine]

Doesn't bother me. Everything related to the spice and Arrakis and including the religion and the Fremen is very muddied. And it doesn't. And actually the Empress's character is what I am having struggle the most with, especially after this episode. And, yeah, that's part of it, because I. I don't mind her being. She's supposed to be deeply spiritual. That. That's what they said. But I actually don't see that play out. I don't see, yes. What she actually believes. I haven't even seen her with the Orange Catholic Bible. I haven't even seen her cite any passages.

[Leo]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Elaine]

So we're just told that she's. Oh, religion is my wife's vice. But I only have just heard her say shy hulude, which should have no meaning to her. Like, it's fine. Like, Orange Catholic Bible should be your. That should be a religion or something. That would make more sense to me.

[Leo]

I. That's a great point, because you know who they've done that well with? Emma line. Sister Emmaline has been like, quoting scripture and has been like, you know, hey, Lila's about to take this risk. Let our souls be gathered to the blah, blah, blah. You know, like, she's been like, saying religious shit the whole season and then had this great conversation about martyrs. And, like, that's spot on. Elaine. I think they. They have demonstrated they can do that. They can kind of give us the breadcrumbs of. This person has religious beliefs that motivate a lot of the way that they think. She's basically just been like you, a prophet. And like that's supposed to kind of fill in the whole backstory of what her beliefs are and everything. That's great. That's a great point.

[Abu]

Yeah, I agree. Natalia is a. Is a very weak point of the show for me and continues to kind of just be used in these very convenient plot roles. She comes in to make sure that the rest of an episode can happen.

[Leo]

God gave her that evidence.

[Elaine]

It's like she's underwritten. Like there's.

[Abu]

Oh, absolutely.

[Elaine]

We have a part of her. We've seen some things, but there's. I don't feel like I really know her. What I understand her, what her motivations are from the very beginning.

[Abu]

Anything.

[Elaine]

Nothing has changed.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

And when you compare that to Francesca, completely different. Like, I'm immediately engrossed when she came into the. Into the screen. So, yeah. Yeah. The writing is just very uneven in regards to his characters.

[Abu]

Yeah. No, I completely agree. Francesca is a great example of even late in the game, episode five to bring in a new character. But it's somebody who fits in neatly and we immediately understand she's got a son, she loves her son, she banged the emperor, she's loyal to the sisterhead. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. We lined up those dominoes and now we can start tipping them over and create some drama for Francesca. What can I list like that about Natalia? What do we even know about her or her character or internal beliefs or her motivations to do anything outside of. To both of your points, like the occasional one off Shai Hulud comment. So I think even stepping beyond the lore, which is just like muddied and out of whack anyway, as far as who even should know what Shah Elud is and isn't within the context of the show itself, assuming people know what Shah Elud is, even then Natalia isn't explained enough to have her be doing these pivotal things with Desmond and for us to, like, believe and invest in them.

[Elaine]

Yeah. Another issue I have with this show is that it presumes too much on the audience to already like, pre know things. So I don't think within the show itself, it's established what spice means to the imperium other than a party drug. Sometimes it seems to be great point. The show itself hasn't established. And the movies, do they say that Spice is necessary for interstellar transport, but the show hasn't really focused on that. And it should be a huge part if it's already here. If you already have the spice and it's already like everything, most of the elements are in play. You gotta focus on spice. It is literally how the universe runs. And I feel like they're really not doing a good job of just establishing those core elements already at this point. It kind of just presumes that you already know that.

[Leo]

Yeah. And even in Brian's book, like Havoco's uncle, who's Salvador Carino, is like addicted to spice. And it kind of is brought up. It's like he's having too much of it and that becomes sort of a motivation for him to really take an interest in Arrakis. So again, even for all of my complaints about Brian's books, they looked at like, what is spice as a drug and what is it as a substance do to people? And then how do you kind of work that into character motivations? I don't think they did it well, but they did it, which is. Yeah, fine. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. Okay. Do you guys want to tackle some pre prepared questions? Yeah, we had. These should be pretty quick. Here's one that is just a fact question that somebody wanted to know. I believe I saw this on Reddit, but me 277432 asked how old is Vorine Atreides in this series?

[Leo]

He's like 200 something. 200 something years old.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

His father is the same General Agamemnon who gave him a life treatment, Life extension treatment, which makes him ageless. So he doesn't age. He's kind of permanently in his 30s and hot and just kind of like wanders planet to planet fucking people and making families and seeding House of Trading.

[Abu]

The ultimate power fantasy.

[Leo]

You know, he's, he's. And he's such a non character, he just is so uninteresting. But yeah, he's, he's like 200 something years old, I think because he was. Yeah, yeah. He was like childhood friends or he was like at first mortal enemies to Abelord Harkonnen. But then they became. He like switched to the side of humanity and they became best friends ever and then had to. I don't know, the whole thing was crazy. Yeah. Vorian is not in the series. To John Curtis's most recent question. He's not in the series so far. Who knows what happens in episode six. But he is name dropped like three times because he's the war hero that Kind of put the Atreides name on the map during the Battle of Corn.

[Abu]

Right. Here's another quick question. Someone on Twitter, I think yesterday, Herbert Clams, which is an incredible name, asked me, why am I hearing so much about the God Emperor? Isn't the show 10,000 years before he'll be born? Basically, this. I got the sense that this person was, like, new to the Dune universe and maybe just now reading the books.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And was confused by all of the YouTube videos and theories out there he was seeing about the God Emperor.

[Leo]

Yeah. How would you address this, Elaine?

[Elaine]

Oh, yeah, I've made. I made a couple of videos myself about that. Because from the start. Let's see, as soon as Kasha, the Emperor's former truthsayer, sees or encounters Desmond Hart, she is immediately wracked by fear. And she later, I think the next sequence after she meets with him and the Emperor and Desmond, she has this nightmarish vision. And one of the images they show is her. Was it Inez being swallowed by a sandworm that morphs into an eye, or it becomes just this blackness and then two glowing eyes coming out. So it's the fact that it's these blue eyes connected to the images of the sandworm that. And they keep doing that. They've done it, like, several more times in the course of the show. It's always a sandworm, and then from that of the abyss, the two glowing eyes coming out. So obviously that's going to spark the theories about the God Emperor. And the thing with the God Emperor is he is such. His presence in the history of humanity looms so large that anybody with any sort of prescience, even a limited form, can't help but be impacted some somehow by his eventual presence. I know it's. It's kind of trippy to think about and. But I can. I can see that this is the place because eventually the God Emperor is going to take over the breeding and genetics program of Bene Gesserit. I think he has a vested interest thus in making sure that Bene Gesserit produce the Kwisatz Haderach to get to the place that he needs them to be, to where he's going to take it over, ultimately lead humanity to the place where they're never able to be controlled again, including, like, prescience. So that's why a lot of theories are, like, buzzing around, because they're kind of like having those breadcrumbs of what is going to be the Golden Path. And then. And the God Emperor's connection to that. So that's why. Yes, it's fun to talk about.

[Abu]

I don't think the show has been shy about intentionally teasing that.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Emmaline, during the vision, sees the eyes. During the class, the drawing art class that they did.

[Leo]

God is watching.

[Abu]

She sees the eyes and explicitly says out loud, God is watching us. A reckoning is coming. So I don't think the show is being shy about very intentionally teasing Lecho, the God Emperor. I still think it's a long shot.

[Leo]

Like Tyron rfl. Right. Like they added the word Titan. Also, the whole idea of RFL being something that was first introduced to us by Leto too. So, yeah, I think that they're very intentionally doing all this. But it is fun to think that the sisterhood had these whispers of Leto too, and then misinterpreted them or missed the point and thought it was about something else. But actually it's been about Leto this whole time. That could be very cool and. And then could give some good life to a later God Emperor or Children of Dune or God Emperor of Dune adaptation where everyone goes, oh, no. Oh, shit. We just. Oh, God, this is embarrassing. We just realized that fucking Raquela, founder of the Sisterhood, was warning us. Oh, God, that is egg on our face.

[Elaine]

Plans within plans. And I can totally see that happening or unfolding to where their attempts to prevent their destruction is what causes it. And ultimately, anytime that that happens, any sort of crisis in this universe leads to human advancement. So by trial by fire, the Bene Gesserit are going to have to reach the stage that we know them to be at 10,000 years later. So, yeah, I know it's kind of trippy to theorize over.

[Leo]

Huge. Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. I think it's a fun theory. I just. Especially now, five episodes in, seeing how much Brian Herbert influences on this series, I just am not hopeful that that is what they're actually building toward. Some sort of like, very deep cut, fourth book, fifth book. Frank Herbert stuff is, I think, not where this show is trying to go, given how much Brian Herbert stuff there is in this.

[Elaine]

Yeah. Though personally, I don't want them to confirm it. I like these little teases and just have it to be something to think about and stir your imagination. But I don't want them to actually say, I don't think Desmond Hart knows what's going on. He just seems like he's a messenger or a prophet and he doesn't understand, like, the greater schemes.

[Leo]

That's huge.

[Elaine]

I'm fine with that. I want there to be that kind of mystery. I like and I think speaks to what is so fascinating about Frank Herbert's mythology. So I don't want a definitive answer. Please don't say amnes, don't say leto. Just let it.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

Let us theorize over it.

[Leo]

Right. That's also.

[Abu]

Mysteries are okay.

[Leo]

And that's the challenge of like Brian Herbert's involvement. Right. Because like, he made all of the prequels about these thinking machines that are still putting around. And then after six books of Frank's where there are no thinking machines doing anything or having any influence that we're seeing, then book seven and eight or whatever, Hunters and Sandworms comes back and it's suddenly about thinking machines again. It's about Erasmus and maybe Omnius. I don't know, I haven't read them yet. But Brian really made the whole universe this sandwich of thinking machine bullshit. And then Frank's books as the filling. And it's like, even if the filling's delicious, it's not a good sandwich if both pieces of bread are shittily written.

[Abu]

I like this analogy.

[Leo]

Thanks.

[Abu]

It is lunchtime and so I'm picking up what you're putting down. Ketchup, tomato, lettuce.

[Elaine]

I mean, so speaking of things being over explained, I think. Was it episode five where they say fear is a literal mind killer disease?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elaine]

Is this the most recent one?

[Abu]

I forget which episode that was. I believe Tula. I think you're referencing Tula saying something like fear of fear in the mind is a fear center.

[Leo]

She was killed by her fear. Like her mind. Yeah, something like that.

[Elaine]

At the ominous plague attacked the fear center in her brain, I think, is what they're referencing. Yeah, So I did have an issue with that. Like, that's. I actually liked where they were going, though, with it initially, where I was seeing how Kasha was so deeply rattled with fear.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

I thought that the Bene Gesserit were going to see that we need to become something more. We need to reach a stage where we are no longer controlled by those base animal instincts.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

We need to become something greater. I thought it was just going to be something along those lines, but not like so deeply explained to such. To such a medical, biological degree. I think it really sucked out the mysticism in that kind of like midi chlorines, but I think worse than that.

[Leo]

Well, that's. It's such a great point because, like. Yeah, the whole idea of like the human test and the idea of breaking out of reactivity is fascinating and is very human. Like, that's very in line with like Buddhist teachings and yoga and like things that exist in the real world that aren't mystical or crazy. It's just like, yeah, you can't be ruled by your emotions. And how much have we felt in our own lives? I know I shouldn't be upset right now, or I know I should be, you know, and then we're unable to break out of that. And then you say these Benny Jesuit have mastered their emotions. Also the underlining like, it. Yeah, there's. There is absolutely. I almost got emotional the other day talking about, like. One of our listeners was saying she really related to the Bene Gesserit because when Frank talked about the Voice, it was always, you know, like, mothers use the voice with their kids, where you understand how to motivate them and you understand the certain tone to take where you say, clean the dishes or, you know, go, go to your room. And they obey, even if they never obey about anything. And one of our listeners was saying they. Their kid was like running out to the street and she was like, they're gonna get hit by a car. Stop. And their kids stopped. And it was like this moment of simpatico with like, what the Bene Gesserit can do. And I think that's one of the. Also one of the powers of Frank's books is that it says, hey, you can see your own capabilities in this world in this writing, right? Mentats, we see. Have you ever seen those? The Japanese students who use abacus. The abacus so much that it's then like in their head. Have you seen this, either of you?

[Abu]

No.

[Leo]

So they will do like nine 10 digit numbers multiplied, divided by each other, and they'll literally be there with a piece of paper and going like, like in the air, manipulating a internal abacus and then putting out the exact right answer in like five seconds.

[Elaine]

Wow.

[Leo]

It's awesome. Crazy. And there's like a whole thing. It's like, it's an. It's a. It's an elective class you can take in high school. It's like using the abacus and like advanced mathematics using these tools. And it becomes this like, national competition. But I'm like, that shit's so rad. And I love the. I love seeing that stuff in the world. Takako says that was her father. Hell yeah. It's so cool what humans are capable of. And I think that's also at the heart of Frank's books. That is fully missing from Brian's books. Because Brian is not like, hey, yeah, the Bene Gesserit have developed the skills that mothers have. He goes, there were fucking wizards on Rossic and they had psychic powers. And now these people kind of have psychic powers. And you're like.

[Abu]

And I think to your point, Leo, like, Daniel puts it quite succinctly. I love the way he put it here. Good rule of thumb for setting expectations for Brian Herbert Kevin J. Anderson is if there's even a veneer of metaphorical dimension to something, they will literalize it to the thousandth power. And that's absolutely true. You know, and for what it's worth, I think this show suffers a little bit from the same problem where it's forgetting to explore the thematic elements that make Frank's stories so powerful and impactful. Right. It's instead literalizing the litany against fear. It becomes this plot device to fight a literal violence.

[Leo]

We had a litany of some sort against. I don't know. I wish. Anxiety. No, that's not quite right. A litany against.

[Abu]

Should we maybe let it pass through you, bro?

[Leo]

Pass it over you, over and through you?

[Abu]

Yeah, you know what, man? Only I will remain.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, dude.

[Abu]

No, like, yes. I think the show is also suffering from like literalizing the gom Jabbar. We see Tula stab people Ori in the neck. Literalizing a bunch of lore elements which Frank was interested in exploring themes, ideas, philosophy, politics through the world building and characters he created. Whereas many of the Brian books, and to some extent even the show, is more interested in just talking about the lore things and literalizing things that are oftentimes for Frank, just an excuse to go on for four pages about politics. So I think Daniel put it really well there.

[Elaine]

Yeah, I completely agree with both of you. And it really speaks to how starkly different Frank Herbert's style and Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are. And I think this show suffers because of those two completely different approaches to writing. And the show just. It feels like that. It feels like it's true. Trying to incorporate the mysticism and philosophy and examining the pitfalls and possibilities in human society and then also with the Brian Herbert stuff, is trying to fill in the blanks to all of those things. But mystery is like so deeply ingrained in this universe. Pseudoscience Y. That's why I like the pseudoscience of it that it's still kind of. It doesn't reach that level of what actually happens in. In science and medical science and all of that. It is. I love that it's also steeped that even the science of it is rooted myth and that's what makes it so strong, because it enables the reader to do the rest of the work, to let your imagination go wild and to speculate and to have that mysticism kind of taken out. Because to have a little answer wrapped up in a neat little bow kind of takes the fun out of it.

[Leo]

Yeah, I also, to your point, it's like approached a certain way. Anything that we don't fully understand can be viewed as mystical. It's like you can say, wow, I just watched that woman make that guy do what she wanted him to do just by telling him that must be wizardry. And the joy of Frank Herbert's universe is it explores what we could actually accomplish over 10,000 years. And biologically and genetically and all these different things. It is. It is that technology so advanced that it appears to be like magic, but it's not magic. It's just you're showing a smartphone to a Neanderthal and you're going, see, there's apps and they're like, oh, you know, like losing their mind. That is what is possible.

[Abu]

They start, they start typing into Safari P O R. You're like, no, no, no, don't. No, something else.

[Leo]

You'll get there. You'll get there eventually. Big boonga wongas.

[Abu]

Okay, I'm going to toss out a 10 minute warning here. We're past the hour mark and we don't want to take up your entire day. Lane, as much as we'd love to just sit here for the next three hours and talk to you. But folks, chat if you have any final questions. We're going to go for about 10 more minutes before we wrap up. I did have another pre prepared one I wanted to toss up. Leo, you and I have kind of talked about this plenty in our conversations, but I'm curious to hear from you, Elaine. I believe this is on Reddit. This is one from Formozo. Btrk. Yeah, they asked, considering that Havoco has shown to be easily manipulated, why not use the influencer of Francesca on him to control the Imperium rather than training Inez? And somewhat similarly related to that, there was a question about truthsayers. Duncan, he daha. These usernames are out of control. Why do the Houses trust their truthsayers? Surely people are aware that the Penny Gesserit have their own interests. So Elaine, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on like the sisterhood scheming and how that's playing for you in the show. Whether it's working, whether you're, whether it's consistent and believable.

[Elaine]

Yeah, that. That is. One issue I've consistently had is that they seem to have. You know, they're in power already at this point in time and almost to an overt level. Like the one episode where Valya arrives and she kind of puts a stop to. What is it? The. The Duke Orchesi confronting the Emperor. She comes and she kind of gets him in line, the Duke, and then gets the. Her. The other Truthsayer history to kind of like, get him in line, the Duke, right there. And it's like how, first of all, she just stormed into this meeting, too. So it seems very much not like how the Bene Gesserit would operate. They are much more behind the scenes. They don't want the Imperium and these great leaders to see the influence that they have. They want to be of service to the Empire, so they want to not be seen as a threat. They want to be in that close position and subtly, very subtly, manipulate the rich and powerful figures to their ultimate goals. But. But it seems very. I don't know if this is, like, a part of the show itself that they're gonna, like, reach too far because of Valya's influence. They've gone way too far in that power grab. So I don't know if that's, like, incorporated into a theme of the show that at this point, they're trying to do way too much too fast, and they're gonna. It's gonna lead to their near destruction. So I don't know. That would make more sense to me if that's what they're trying to do. It's not clear at this point. So right now it's very confusing because it seems very overt in. And, yeah, like, we don't. I don't know. Truth saying. I don't like how they've portrayed it either. It doesn't seem like it's very rare. Inez just has it now. So that was.

[Leo]

She did it herself.

[Abu]

Right.

[Elaine]

I. I really liked her showing, like, doing those breathing exercises. That made way more sense to me as far as her level. And I. And I love that scene. But then, like, when. Yeah, now she just does it. Touch your fingers together and you can do it. That's all it takes.

[Leo]

It's a pain because people are doing it all the time accidentally. They're like. They're talking and they're like, oops. Then they're just seeing everything.

[Elaine]

Yeah, it was very inconsistent. And also their plans. Okay, so their plans right now, as far as. The other question was about Francesca's influence. It is very odd that all they want is just to get a sister on the throne and that's it. That they think that will lead to the prevention of Arafel or something like that. And. And that just seems. Yeah. Very small in scope. So it's. I don't know. I think it just opens up more questions than answers about, like, why didn't you just do this? Why didn't you use Francesca earlier?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

But it's the inconsistencies that make you have those questions.

[Abu]

Right.

[Elaine]

So, yeah, I don't really. I get that they're not the Bene Gesserit that we know them to be, but it also, like, I wish they didn't have so much power that they do. I wish that. I thought that was. This was billed as an origin story.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Elaine]

For the sisterhood. So how they come to have this power. Yeah. Now they already have it. So it kind of just. I think it took the wind out of the sails a little bit.

[Abu]

For sure.

[Leo]

I did.

[Abu]

Julian had a. Had a great response here. Julian said maybe the ultimate point of the show is that the Sisterhood realizes they were too overt. Like, maybe we are watching the Sisterhood make one of their biggest mistakes and thus change course into the Bene Gesserit of the future.

[Leo]

Yeah, we've talked about that too, with, like, the abomination, like, Lila being the first abomination. And we've talked about that being, like, they're realizing fear and this reactivity. Maybe we should test for this and make sure that the people that are in power are, capital H, humans. I think someone in the comments on that Reddit thread had posted that, like, they are learning that having a truthsayer like Kasha at the right hand of the Emperor is still something that can be interrupted by the arrival of someone like Desmond. Desmond showed up, and suddenly Kasha and Valia are kicked out of the palace is crazy. So I think part of the vision of Inez on the throne is you cannot kick the Empress out of the palace. Like, that is a type of security of power that they don't have. If it is Francesca controlling Emperor as her puppet. But nevertheless, like, how well is that explained? How well do we understand that? And if you're going into episodes five and six going, wait, why isn't just Francesca taking the throne then? Maybe there was an extra line or two of dialogue needed earlier.

[Elaine]

Yeah. And also, I don't like doing the work of the writers for them. I shouldn't have to justify the answers so that's how it makes sense to me, but I don't.

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that to me, like, just zooming out. That to me has been one of the biggest writing issues of the show. We, even as super fans, are often sitting here trying to justify what we are seeing play out and not just ask questions. Mysteries are absolutely essential to storytelling. Right. We are trying to unravel the mysteries, but also trying to justify simply the actions of the thing we just watched happen. And to your point, Elaine, like, that is the writer's job to justify that. That's not on us to like twist ourselves into pretzels. To be like, well, if then that, then if then. And that to me has been one of the greatest weaknesses of the show.

[Leo]

I love John Curtis's comment. Maybe the Snyder cut will clear things up. Yeah, get in there, Snyder. Slow motion.

[Abu]

To your dad's point from earlier, Leo. Yeah, worse shows do exist and they're called Rebel Moon Part 1 and 2 on Netflix.

[Leo]

There you go.

[Abu]

By Zack Snyder. So, you know, worst sci fi slop does exist out there. If, if that's your speed.

[Elaine]

Oh, yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. One last speculative question here from.

[Leo]

Maybe.

[Abu]

If they did Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune, would you prefer a show or a movie? If a show, would you accept Dave and Dan from Game of Thrones since the source material is complete and that would help them avoid going off the rails like they had to for Game of Thrones.

[Leo]

I would, I would do a show, a series for at least God Emperor of Dune. I think God Emperor of Dune would work best as like a horror, dark horror, like 8 to 10 episode series miniseries. Children of Dune, I think could follow a pretty good like, you know, maybe part one, Part two, like movie sitch where you, you know, the end of, end of Part one is where the whole like the Laza Tiger incident happens and, and then we go into Part two, maybe even believing that Leto is, has been, has been tigered, has been Tony the Tiger, they're murdered. But ultimately I think that's kind of my feeling now regarding like directors Dave and Dan, I guess. But there's like other great directors out there. Like, we don't, I don't need to fall back on the Game of Thrones people. And ultimately I think I would also like it to feel distinct from Game of Thrones because there's already so many people drawing the comparisons. And Game of Thrones is great, but it's its own universe. I wouldn't mind someone else who is also a phenomenal director and showrunner and Everything. Give them a chance, you know, or get Villeneuve tapped in or get someone else. I don't know. There's great directors out there. We could have someone else. But yeah, I think Children of Dune in my head works fine as a movie or a couple of movies. And God Emperor of Dune, I think would best be like a horror TV series where you're really tied to Duncan's perspective as he's discovering the tyrant monstrosity that is Leto to. What about you, Elaine?

[Elaine]

It's a good question. I was always of the opinion that Dune itself lends itself better to long form storytelling. And that's what's so unfortunate about Dune prophecy, because I feel like there's so much potential there and they could have really taken the time to dig something deep and really say, add a. Something meaningful to this universe. But there's a growing conception now from it that Dune only belongs on the big screen. That's this epic scale and the stories that we can expect there. But I really think that this should. We should still give TV Dune on TV a chance because I think there's so much potential to really dive into the greater themes of Frank Herbert's stories and the myths and the strangeness, because the Villeneuve's films, as cinematically great as they are, and it is greatly streamlined, though, and there are just elements that I wish were in it. And I think it would have made for an incredible TV series if all of those little details were able to be fleshed out. And so, yeah, great films. But I think a great TV series should be ruled out for Dune and then Dune, Messiah and Children of Dune and we've seen it done before, but to see it like on the budget that HBO has and all these greater resources and technology and all of the stuff that is available today would be so amazing to see in a premium television format. God, ever. I don't know, though. Yeah, I don't know. That might be a good movie. I've said I floated the idea before, like maybe an anime.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elaine]

Because visually, I don't know. I think. I don't know.

[Leo]

Or what about Guillermo del Toro and like puppets? Like, that's something we've talked about before because, like, he's dark and twisted enough and his. Some of his, like, Pinocchio movie, his recent Pinocchio movie was so fucking spooky. I really liked it and I feel like that could be a good vibe, you know, that's sort of like Kubo two strings puppets, animated, you know? Yeah, lots of. Lots of.

[Elaine]

I think that's a great idea for God Emperor. That would be an excellent pairing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Yeah. And that's honestly something I've. I've personally advocated for is like, animation is such an incredible medium to tell a story about a talking worm, a very political, opinionated talking worm. And so that, to me, is a harder sell in live action. And I agree, like, you'd have to go horror with it, but then you'd lose a lot of the politics maybe, if you have to make Leto into a horror, like, horrific creature rather than a. So I don't know.

[Leo]

Well, I don't know. It would be funny. It would be funny to have this, like, grotesque, truly terrifying creature being like. But think about bureaucrats, though, and Duncan being like, ha, ha. Huh? Yeah. No, I mean, that's a good point. Good point. But also, ha. Yeah, right.

[Abu]

I mean, it's like. It's like Freddie stopping to be like, can I talk to you about the importance of voting? It's like, weren't you about to stab me? Why are you wearing the mask? If I'm trying to canvas voters right now, I'm getting to it. But also, I do think an animated. An animated show. I don't know that John Curtis has God Emperor animated. Like, arcane. I love arcane. I don't know that that art style fits the Dun universe, but I do agree that some sort of animation.

[Elaine]

But James McAvoy to voice the.

[Abu]

Oh, bring back a boy. Absolutely. Ugo has a. Has a good comment here that I just want to highlight. My thing is that you can't twist yourself into a pretzel until a show is done. You can fall into the trap of criticizing a writer's choice in episode one when it may be explained in the season finale. I think that's an absolutely fair rebuttal to make.

[Leo]

That's fair.

[Elaine]

True.

[Abu]

But I would also argue an episode has to be consistent within itself as well. And, like, that's the things that we're twisting ourselves into pretzels about, not the larger seasonal mysteries where, like, we may learn about this later. Sure. But it's like, why did this happen in this episode right now? Based on a thing that happened five minutes earlier in this episode right now. That. Those are the things that are confounding.

[Elaine]

But. But don't worry, we'll talk about it plenty after it's done.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Elaine]

But this is the journey that we're on right now.

[Leo]

Yeah, right.

[Abu]

It's also part of the journey. You know, the theorizing is half the fun process.

[Leo]

I also think and this is how I feel about books, too. It's like, if you are not giving me enough as the reader or the watcher, it's like, I will stop watching the show. And ultimately, unlike a painting or something that's just there in front of you, when you have a narrative arc that takes time, I will also be evaluating, am I enjoying this? Do I still want to watch? And if ultimately people bail on by episode four because they're so frustrated by things that haven't been explained yet because the finale hasn't happened, that is still a failure on the part of the showrunner and the. And the executives when people disengage because they're not. They're not interested. Now, some of the points that you're highlighting. Yeah, Scavengers Reign is a really excellent sci fi series that could be really cool. Also, Daniel Dion, there's only one voice actor to play, Leto to God, But I think that would fully ruin any serious tone of just him going, I don't know, Duncan, you do. You do. You know, I don't have a penis. It's like. It's horror. That's so dumb. All right, we have to wrap up.

[Abu]

Okay. Yes, let's wrap up. Elaine, thank you so much for hanging out with us for so long. We really appreciate it. Always a pleasure.

[Elaine]

Thanks for having me Dune. My pleasure.

[Abu]

Is there anything you want to let our audience know? Anything you're up to over on your channel? Any projects you want to share?

[Elaine]

Yeah, you can follow me here on YouTube at Nerd Cookies. I'm gonna have some more Dune prophecy coverage coming out, like, just theories and stuff. And. And my overall thoughts, you know, once. The finale is going to premiere this Sunday. So, yeah, just expect more of those. And yeah, I also have a second channel, Nerd Cookies Rants, where I kind of laughing about a lot of stuff going on sci fi and fantasy lore. So if you want to check that out, too, and you can follow me on TwitterCookies if you want my immediate takes or if I'm going on a stream or something. If you want updates on that, that's good to follow me there. Yeah, that's it. And we're probably going to talk about the. I'm probably going to be on Quinn's ideas for the finale, but I don't know when that will be since next week's schedule is going to be the holidays and stuff. So it's going to be weird.

[Leo]

I'm also not sure.

[Elaine]

Just subscribed.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I didn't know about Nerd cookies rants. You got yourself a new subscriber, Elaine. That's very exciting.

[Elaine]

Oh, thank you.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yep. Definitely.

[Elaine]

We're my live reaction. Oh, thank you. And yours as well. It's great to chat with you gents about Dune and I love, I love our chats and in the chat as well. It's great to see y'all.

[Abu]

Same here.

[Leo]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. You can also watch videos versions of select episodes on the Lore Party YouTube channel. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.