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- [00:00]
Abu
Your. Your morning vodka, I see.
- [00:02]
Leo
Yeah, yeah. Morning moonshine. Just day going.
- [00:07]
Abu
That's the way it works. I love it. Yeah. Who knows what I have in this water bottle?
- [00:11]
Leo
It's also vodka. This podcast runs on vodka.
- [00:28]
Abu
Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.
- [00:44]
Leo
My name's Leo.
- [00:45]
Abu
And Leo, we're back in the new year.
- [00:47]
Leo
Yep.
- [00:47]
Abu
We're here 2025.
- [00:49]
Leo
Some might say New Year, new us or something.
- [00:53]
Abu
Same stream, though.
- [00:55]
Leo
Same, same. A lot of the same, actually, as it turns out.
- [00:58]
Abu
Yeah. Yeah. So today is a bonus live episode. We're going to be basically discussing Dune Prophecy Season 1 in its entirety. Now that the whole show is over and we've had some space away from it because of holiday break, we're going to be interacting with our live chat here. And that's actually a good reminder for folks who aren't in the live chat right now, if you're listening to the audio of this after the fact, a reminder that we do live streams over on the lower party YouTube channel. We did them regularly for Dune Prophecy, and our hope in 2025 is to do them regularly. Not quite the same every week Cadence, but definitely sprinkle them out regularly throughout the months in 2025. So expect more streams from us and more opportunities for you. Com Jabar Listener to participate in our discussions.
- [01:51]
Leo
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, today we're going to be recording our kind of State of the Imperium, where are we at Episode. And that's going to go into a lot of maybe what you can expect from us this coming year. So I don't want to get ahead of us on that note.
- [02:04]
Abu
That's right.
- [02:05]
Leo
But turning the conversation to Dune Prophecy. Abu.
- [02:08]
Abu
Yeah.
- [02:09]
Leo
How are you feeling about it, like a month later?
- [02:13]
Abu
Yeah, it has been.
- [02:15]
Leo
You've had some time to kind of sit with it. And also I think when we were last talking about it, half of our conversation was before we learned that season two was going to happen. And, like, since we've been on mic, we haven't really had a chance to unpack what that means for not necessarily the immediate experience of watching the show, but maybe like, how we think this is going to stand in the annals of history. Right?
- [02:40]
Abu
Yeah, yeah. And. And, you know, I mentioned this to you. We were chatting last week, we had a production meeting and Stuff. And I mentioned to you last week that I don't feel any differently than where I was when we talked about episode six before the holidays. And I will say, you know, I didn't talk about Dune over the holidays. In fact, I made it a point to not think about work for two weeks and not think about podcasting and go nowhere near any Dune property, which was just a self care thing for me. You know, like, I know myself and I know I'm a workaholic and so I force myself to step away when I need to and spend time with family and friends. Thinking back on it now though, like, I don't really feel any different. You know, I have said my piece on Dune prophecy many times over the course of many hours of podcasting and that has not changed in the subsequent weeks leading up to today. So ultimately, I'm still. The show wasn't for me. Ultimately, you know, I was disappointed by many things. There were highlights in particular moments. The agony scene in episode two, Valia's confrontation with her uncle in episode four. There were high, high peaks that I enjoyed. But as an overall package, the show did not work for me. And I had many criticisms about the storytelling and, and that's kind of still where I fall about it. But I know your feelings have evolved and I'd love to hear those.
- [04:10]
Leo
Yeah, a little bit. And I'll get more into it in a few minutes. But I think for me, for sure, the edge has gone from some of my disappointment knowing that there is a season two gonna happen at some point, because now this isn't just the, you had one shot and this is what we got. This can be the kind of beginning of something a little bit more complete as a, as a second season comes out. I still do think that a first season should stand on its own. And this one maybe is not the best. And for sure that's. That's unfortunate. I also think that like in the last month, and this is one of the things I wanted to talk about today, I've seen some really interesting analysis of some of the character arcs and some of the, some of the little details that I mostly missed the first time I watched the season. And I say the first time, the, the first three or four times we watched every episode as we were covering it. But I think I'm gonna enjoy at some point rewatching the season. The one concern I have is that the, the low points like the Ixian weapons dealer and the club scenes will just continue to be grating, will continue to be annoying and we'll probably get more so each time. And that. That's unfortunate. But all in all, I've talked to a lot of people who are like, yeah, great show, super fun. What a great series. And I was like, really? Really? Your whole chest. You're saying it with your whole chest, huh? All right. I mean, sweet. I was like, more the team show than you, but still, other people, like, loved it, so it'll be interesting for sure. And I think we both agree it's good that now the creative team has, like, the cast lockdown and the aesthetic lockdown, and the now they get to maybe cook a little bit more intentionally with a seasoned team. And so I did bring some interesting points, but we might want to. Do you want to take some questions first from our chat? Do you want to get right into that? What are you feeling?
- [06:11]
Abu
Sure. Let's sprinkle in a couple of questions, and maybe they might weave in and out of some points and we can kind of dip in and out.
- [06:18]
Leo
Yeah.
- [06:19]
Abu
Depending on how active folks are in the chat. First and foremost, I want to shout out Elaine from Nerd Cookies, who was here an hour early in the chat. I don't know if Elaine is still here, but Elaine had a question for us. Elaine asks, what if season two features a shadow war between the Sisterhood and the Tleilax? The hooded figure is a Benny Tleilax geneticist. We also get to explore what happened with the Eidosha.
- [06:44]
Leo
That's a really interesting consideration. An hour ago, Elaine, thank you. And I have mixed feelings about that. I think it definitely clouds the cultural identity of the Tleilax as being really focused on biology and the ooey gooey stuff in the universe to have them using thinking machines to experiment with people. I'm not familiar enough with Brian's books to know if that's, like, a major theme in them. Maybe the Tleilaxu are more technologically oriented in Brian's stories, but I think for within, like, Frank canon, I really feel like it's going to be an Ixian or something. Like it's going to be an Ixion or it's going to be a Rhysian, or it's going to be like some faction, some splinter faction that gets named. Sort of like in Sisterhood of Dune and Mentats of Dune, Ptolemy and Venports. Like science people. Maybe it's going to be Venport. Right. Like, when we were talking to Alison Shapker, she was saying, we were asking, are we going to see the Mentats Are we going to see the Spacing Guild? And she was saying the other, the other schools, the other factions, they are there. We're just not looking at them in this season. So maybe that means we're going to see Venport and his like he really has like a reactionary flip to the Butlerian fervor where he's going. No, no. Technology and profit over everything. So maybe we're going to see that. But I do think that Theodosia is a question that needs more exploration, especially because she's now in captivity. I imagine we're going to get a lot more of her background and backstory for sure.
- [08:28]
Abu
Yeah.
- [08:28]
Leo
I don't know. What about you? What do you think?
- [08:30]
Abu
I agree. I think we left the Theodosia thread dangling so that we can revisit it in an impactful way, hopefully in a future season. And I really hope we do. I think it's interesting what Alayne has proposed here for a season two plotline. I do think I would be disappointed if season two continued to dangle the carrot of a mystery figure behind the scenes. Because at this point Desmond is no longer our antagonist. So we need something, another goal or mystery or force for Valya to be working against on Arrakis. Some sort of operative. And even if it's a middleman for the true evil behind the scenes or something, you know, we need to establish some sort of antagonist. So maybe the Tleilax who are behind it all. I do wonder what the Thinking Machine relationship. Same as you, Leo. I wonder what the relationship is like when. When I think Thinking Machine and people who are breaking Butlerian jihad code. I think Ixion.
- [09:35]
Leo
Right.
- [09:36]
Abu
When I think gross biological experiments and immoral questionable morals. I think Tleilax both were introduced in this series and I think both are viable options as season two antagonists. I'm curious which way the show will take it though.
- [09:54]
Leo
Yeah. And again, I think Brian really leans into House Riches and House like. Like how they. How they inhabit the universe. So I also wouldn't be surprised if there was like another faction that we're introduced to is another possibility. Also Elaine says. Yeah, I'm still here.
- [10:11]
Abu
Yeah, glad you're still here.
- [10:13]
Leo
Great to see you.
- [10:14]
Abu
Yes. Everyone watching, please check out Elaine's channel. Nerd cookies. She covers a lot of sci fi, covers a lot of Dune. So if you like our content, you will definitely like hers. And we've. She's a friend of the Pod. We've had her on many times.
- [10:27]
Leo
Thousand percent.
- [10:28]
Abu
Some good follow up comments here. That are maybe worth shouting out. Omni Collective says in response to Elaine's question. Maybe they, as in the Tleilaxu. Maybe the Tleilaxu would use thinking machines as a crutch before they go fully genetic, because there would still be people who would use technology even after the jihad, as a cling to the old ways because of habits.
- [10:52]
Leo
Could see that. Yeah. And ultimately, like, because Frank Herbert left the early Tleilaxu history so blank because he really didn't give us a lot of, like, prime canon about their early years. We have a little bit of the Dune encyclopedia, but even then there is a big space within which you could say, yeah, they dabbled in technology before they realized, oh, this is going to get us in trouble. This is going to draw unwanted attention to us. Let's just abandon that fully and let's focus on biology, because that people will let us mess with. That's possible for sure. Yeah.
- [11:25]
Abu
Yeah. And I think the 10,000 year buffer between the present timeline of Dune in the Villeneuve films and this prequel show gives you a lot of leeway to kind of do something like that, where you're like, well, it's not the Tleilaxu you come to know because we're 10,000 years ago. They're different. They will evolve over the next 10,000 years. So I think they have a lot of leeway to do that. And I would love for the show to, in future seasons, kind of lean into the 10,000 year gap more and give itself space to not feel so tied to Dune lore as it exists in the movies or books, and kind of to tell the most impactful story that it can in its universe versus being so chained to the wider Dune canon.
- [12:16]
Leo
Yeah, well, again, I think that's one of our big takeaways from this season, was you really need to double down on the most human elements of the story. And that's gonna be why we enjoy the show. And especially in retrospect, the Valia Tula stuff continues to be just the best. I was seeing comments online of people talking about that moment where Tula uses the voice to stop Valya in episode six. And that moment that Valya realizes that that Tula lied about Desmond has been lying for years to protect her child from Valia, despite their, like, their sisterhood and their closeness to say, I lied to you for decades because I don't trust you and I think that you're dangerous to this person. And like, that moment had such emotional weight and was excellent and was so much Better than the club.
- [13:07]
Abu
Yeah. The show was at its best when we were focusing on Vali and Tula. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Okay, do you want to. Before we get to another question, do you want to get to one of your.
- [13:17]
Leo
I do want to touch quickly on Omni Collective's creativity comment. Tlili Laxmunic scenes could have been more together beginning, separated and isolated later on. Could that be possible that they were closer to. I think that that is something that stretches Frank's canon. Pretty taut, because according to what we learn in Heretics of Dune, the Tleilaxu are their own thing, basically, from the beginning and were never like a splinter cell of the Tleilax or the Ixians or vice versa. They were always separate. Now, again, Brian's books, you have, like, Tleilaxu masters taking over Planet IX and Planet Richees and their slavers and all sorts of weird stuff. But according to Frank lore, I think that's a bit of a stretch, but we'll see. Again, there's a lot of flexibility within 10,000 years. Now, something that I did. Yes. Wanted to bring, I thought there was a really interesting point that it might have been Jordan who brought it up in one of the official podcast episodes, but it was this idea of in blood truth, the idea of family and kind of the burden you carry. And we see that a lot in the series. We see that everyone, right, Tula and Ori are struggling to understand, like, how their Atreides and Harkonnen lineage affects the love that they have for each other. We see that in a lot of different ways, but on a very broad scale. Something that I hadn't put together until I heard this comment was that Lila, as the descendant of Dorotea and also Rachela, was intentionally separated from her knowledge of her heritage, as was Desmond. Desmond was also separated from his, you know, Harkonnen upbringing and his Harkonnen, you know, his. His involvement with the sisterhood wasn't necessarily something that was actively part of his life. And yet both of them are, through fate and the twists and turns, dragged back into those feuds that define their predecessors, which I thought was really interesting. This idea of, like, can you escape by. By obfuscating where you come from? Can you. Can you escape those lines of fate? And on one level, my initial take was very like, wow, that's bleak, deterministic. It's like, is that what we're taking away from this series? Like, yeah. Are you just destined to fall back into the blood feuds? That defined your family before you. But I also realized both of them are dragged back into the battle by sisterhood meddling by the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, pulling strings and becoming this formidable force. There's this idea that the more they step into the light, the more they will have enemies. And that is also what draws Desmond back. And that's also what probably drew the person who's manipulating Desmond the whole time to do what he did. And also what led them to have to use the Lila Raquela gambit of, like, let's awaken her other memories, even though her fucking grandma is Dorothea, who was murdered. Like, hopefully that won't go awry, you know? So, anyway, I thought that was interesting, this idea of, like, blood and family. And we see a lot of that explicitly on the screen. But then there is this kind of background Shakespearean drama going on where people who are. Belong to the. The two families or whatever were removed from them and then tumbled back into them, which is kind of interesting.
- [16:49]
Abu
Yeah. I would also argue, in addition to sisterhood meddling and that the gravity of the sisterhood pulling them back in, they are also responsible for their own choices. Desmond didn't have to come back to the palace and start meddling and have this vendetta against sisters, but he chooses to do that to some extent. And Dorothea also, or at least abomination, Dorothea, chooses to come back in this bold, vindictive fashion instead of letting it go. So I think there's also a factor where they are responsible for their choices to some extent as well. To Ori's credit, he was like, we can leave this feud behind. We have the choice now to not fall back into the status quo of the feuds, of the drama, of the whatever. And obviously, Tula didn't make that choice. So I think there's also. There's an active participation in returning to that family, even if you were ripped away from it. Without a choice, you. You make the choice to come back to some extent.
- [17:53]
Leo
Yeah, I think that's. That's a totally fair point, because I think that idea of examining agency is also a big part of the themes of the story and the themes of Dune and that moment that Avila kind of scolds the acolytes for going, why would Lila decide to go undergo the agony? Why would you force her to do this? And she's like, no, no, no. She chose to do this of her own accord. Now, again, Tula manipulated her maybe a little bit, but still. And I would also say, Desmond, I don't know how much Desmond is making clear conscious decisions. Given now what we know about, like, the traumatic surgery, his eyeball, the, like, what he has, he interpreted this as, like, God and his, like, holy mission because of the trauma. Is that, like, a false memory? Like, what's going on with Desmond? But you're absolutely right. Like, there is, like, personal agency, and that's important to keep in mind.
- [18:45]
Abu
Yeah.
- [18:45]
Leo
Good call.
- [18:46]
Abu
We have two questions here that kind of go hand in hand. From the comments that I want to throw up. First is from Alphonse. Alphonse says, loved the focus on the Harkonnens from a not pure evil perspective. Wish we could have gotten a little more on how Atreides viewed them than what we got, but six episodes was way too short for that.
- [19:03]
Leo
Yeah.
- [19:04]
Abu
Do you agree?
- [19:05]
Leo
I think that we have a new perspective on House Harkonnen, which is great. And I think we've agreed that. What a great way to launch a TV series and to say, welcome to Dune.
- [19:18]
Abu
He.
- [19:18]
Leo
Here's our main character, a Harkonnen. Lovely. Great. Very, very smart. The thing is, how the Atreides view House Harkonnen is something I just am less. I'd be interested in it from Dune, like Frank Herbert's Dune, because I think Frank Herbert did a lot of work to make sure each character had their sort of internal, I don't know, universe and their own nuanced perspective. Like, I'd be interested to hear Duke Leto talking about how he thinks of House Harkonnen. It'd be very interesting to hear him give a little TED Talk, because I don't know that he would say, they're evil through and through, those bastards. I hope they all die. Blah, blah, blah. Like, that doesn't feel like Duke Leto, Atreides. But then you go to the characters that are introduced in Brian's books, and most of them are like, dirty Harkonnens. Ew. And it's like, all right. So, I mean, it's like, do I want to know what Kieran thinks of House Harkonnen? Is Kieran even a character?
- [20:19]
Abu
I was going to say Kieran is maybe the only vessel in the show to show that point of view. But obviously, is even. Is Kieran even a character? Is also a valid criticism.
- [20:30]
Leo
It's like a. We'll get a thumbs down emoji from Kieran. And, like, that's his entire take, right?
- [20:37]
Abu
Yeah. I mean, we don't know anything about Kieran either. You know, is his trauma stemming from the one Tula incident?
- [20:43]
Leo
Yeah.
- [20:43]
Abu
How was he raised? His dad is the one survivor that Tula left. Go. But we get no inter. No sense of, like, what has led Kieran now to this point, to this rebellion where he's willing to blow up an emperor.
- [20:56]
Leo
Yeah.
- [20:57]
Abu
To get to a point where you're ready to commit terrorism and murder many people, some of whom might be innocent. Because he was going to blow up a whole land stride room.
- [21:06]
Leo
Right.
- [21:07]
Abu
Not everyone in that room has blood on their hands. Kieran Atreides certainly would once he's set the detonator off. So I think, like, I agree with Alphonse to that extent. Like, I wish we had. I wish Kieran had, like, anything going for him in this se. In this season. Maybe that's all being saved for season two or something. But, like, we got a lot of Harkonnen and I think that was a strong choice and the right choice given how strong Valia and Tula are as characters. But what little Atreides we get was practically nothing because it was just Kieran's perspective, which was. Which didn't get any more nuanced than, like, it goes boom, big boom.
- [21:45]
Leo
Now, I will say, listening to you talk about it and, and also, so Alphonse says, clarification, didn't want a lot more focus, more a 10 minute scene. And I think what would have been really good, and I think that I've convinced myself internally, the hunting scene. I would have loved to see Tula overhear House Atreides talk about House Harkonnen. Now, that only works after the House Atreides reveal. But if she had overheard someone going, blah, blah, blah, House Harkonnen. And she kind of like perks up and goes, oh, are they about to talk shit about my House? And then they were like, it really sucks that they lost their prestige, you know? And like, yeah, Abelard abandoned the. The fight. But, like, do they all need to suffer for that? And then there'd be this moment of her going, wait, holy shit, are we. Are we super wrong about all this now? Again, as much as I think that that would be fun and resonant and could give an interesting conversation for her to witness that them not being super, having a lot of animosity. It does only work once, you know, that they are House Atreides, which they held off until they were all dead to tell us. So, yeah, I think you're right. Like, the only vessel we really get is Kieran. And Kieran's not a good vessel for just about anything.
- [23:01]
Abu
Yeah. Well, a quick question that Goes hand in hand with Alphonse's observation that we only got six episodes. So maybe no time to throw in a Atreides storyline is a question from Icecrony. These usernames y'all have always make me laugh. Icecrony asks, do you think season two will have more episodes than season one?
- [23:23]
Leo
Yeah, maybe eight. What do you think?
- [23:27]
Abu
I think it's impossible to say because that's a business decision made by someone at HBO with a paycheck or with a. With, you know, a checkbook. And I think the reality is, is that the show will get whatever amount of money the budget allows.
- [23:44]
Leo
That's a good point. Yeah. Like, if. If the. On some level, if they see all of the complaints about it are, like, felt rushed to too much, too little, like, too few episodes, then maybe a smarter investment is, let's make a longer season next time. But at the same time, if it's like, oh, that was a lukewarm response and let's cancel this series after season two, they're gonna just be, like, saving as much as they can, lean into some merchandising opportunities, and then, like, jump ship. So, yeah.
- [24:14]
Abu
Can you think of a show where the episode numbers changed season to season? I'm trying to think of one, but nothing comes to mind.
- [24:23]
Leo
I don't know, maybe chat off the top of my head.
- [24:25]
Abu
Chat. Can you help us out? Yeah. Are there examples of shows where, like.
- [24:28]
Leo
I mean, the thing is, like, Last of Us, which, again, we don't have season two yet, but, like, Last of Us changed up episode durations really dramatically, and I've seen that happen, and I think that's kind of along the same lines. It's like, what does this season need? Or what does this show need? What does this episode need? Generally, you would say, each episode is this long and that's what our budget is, and blah, blah, blah, and that's the kind of format that you fit every episode into. And so I think maybe we do have precedent now for people to just say, let's just make it. However it is. A lot of anime does that, like, the Attack on titan had, like, six final seasons. Each one was like, this one was two episodes, this one's 19 episodes, this one's two and a half episodes, and you have to stop halfway through the third.
- [25:14]
Abu
Yeah, yeah. I think in the creative writing rooms. And that sort of situation, from what I know, like, it typically is written to be what it is. But for example, like, when I used to cover the Witcher on. On the Witcher podcast, that Spin off show. I forget what it's fucking called now. Blood Origin, I think was originally budgeted slate, like slated and scripted for eight episodes. And then somewhere in the production the budget got cut and they had to take eight episodes worth of story and cram it into six. And I mean, that show sucked for that reason, obviously. And a few others. Yeah, they like fumbled the bag. They had Michelle Yeoh on that TV show. Like, how'd you fumble that? But you know, I think like there's so many. We're actually going to talk about it in a little bit because I have some quotes from Yohan Rank, the director who at one point was going to direct some episodes of the show and then left. In a recent interview, he basically talked about how like TV production is dramatically different from what he's used to, movie production because it's not like one person or a small group's vision. It's like TV is like made by a lot of hands in the pot.
- [26:26]
Leo
Yeah.
- [26:27]
Abu
With a lot of opinions and a lot of money and a lot of. And so like he actually doesn't like that environment. We'll talk about it, but I think a lot of things change and it's hard to answer this question basically.
- [26:37]
Leo
Yeah, we do have a few people who have said so. Like Alej Alay said Evil had 14 episodes and then 10 in season three and 14 in season four. Yellowstone might have done that. And then season two will be it for the show. Oh, that's someone else. Yes. So it does happen sometimes, I guess. Alphonse said Parks and rec was six episodes, went to 24 in season two. That feels a little bit more like they were testing and piloting versus. That was like the intended narrative arc for this grand work of fiction, but nevertheless. Yeah, kind of along the lines of what you're talking about, Abu, where maybe it was like they had a plan for eight to 10 episodes, but then with production craziness and needing to meet deadlines and needing to fulfill contracts, they squeezed it to six and that's what we got. So nerdcookies points out maybe the production chaos of season one limited this to six and without similar chaos, they'll do eight. I could see that eight or ten. You know, I don't necessarily want like, I wouldn't want this plot stretched over 12 episodes. 12 hour long episodes. It just doesn't feel like enough. But like 8 or 10 would have given enough time to like really care about some of the characters. So, yeah, interesting thoughts. As you said, Abu, we don't know there's no way to know, but fingers crossed that they make a choice. That's good. Hot take.
- [28:10]
Abu
Yes.
- [28:11]
Leo
I hope they do good things.
- [28:13]
Abu
Yeah. Wow. Cool it. Take another sip of that moonshine.
- [28:16]
Leo
Back to the moonshine.
- [28:18]
Abu
You're getting too hot over there. Before we dig into another question, you had another. Another bit about prophecy you wanted to talk about here in our notes.
- [28:26]
Leo
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's another kind of little thing that I thought was kind of interesting. Avila. Now, we learn a lot about Avila in the final episode, and Avila has an interesting arc just as a character. And this is, again, something that didn't really click for me until I was thinking about the whole series as an entirety. And we basically meet Avila as Valya's spy, right? Like, Avila is the one that Valya trusts to spy on Tula while Valia. Valya's gone. And in the final episode, Avila breaks away from Valya. You know, she gives the crowbar to Dorothea. Here's the bonking tool to bonk the thinking machine. But we also learn in the episode six flashbacks that Avila watched Falia, basically merc. All of her, like, fellow Dorothea followers, presumably her friends, people she cared about and people she liked. They all died because of Valya. And yet she was still able to follow Valya. She was still able to be loyal to Valya. But then it's even more interesting because at that final moment in episode six, she breaks away from Valya, and you go, okay, you watched her kill all of your friends, and then you were able to follow her, but now you're able to break away from her. And Alay says, was it loyalty or fear? Great point. Could be either. But I do think that there is an internal life to Avila, which kind of hints at. She's clearly struggling with some of Valya's choices. But what we see episode after episode is she believes in the sisterhood, and she wants the sisterhood to matter and to care and to continue. Right. Like so many of her conversations with Tula are, what are you doing? You are in charge of the school. We're losing sisters. We're like, there's an urgency and an anger in her delivery there. She wants the sisterhood to continue. Now, do you think in that moment where Dorothea is back via Lila, she's going, I think Valia and Tula are the best shot this sisterhood has, considering everything she's witnessed over the last six episodes. I think it makes perfect sense that she would say, you know what? I believed in Dorothea when she was alive. And right now, Tula and Valya are bad options to lead the sisterhood. I'm gonna go within the direction of the sisterhood having the best shot at Scott. So I just wanted to kind of talk about Avila for a second, because I think in a show that already had too much going on, it is still nice to see a character like Avila, who is very, very much a side character, still having a chance to, like, start in this place, and then we find out she was somewhere else, and now she's in a new place. She's kind of gone on this little journey for herself. I feel like, in a very good way, Avila is serving Shuang Yu, Shuang Yu Bing, betraying the mother Superior, but with the continuity of the sisterhood as that kind of guiding North Star. So, anyway, wanted to take a moment.
- [31:39]
Abu
That's an interesting take. I would disagree a little bit and actually agree with Takako's take that Takaku says Avila is, to put it not nicely, an opportunist. She was determined to continue living and changed horses when it suited her herself above all than the sisterhood. That was my read on Avila. I didn't get that. She was deathly loyal to the future of the sisterhood and its mission. And it was more, oh, no, I don't want to die. So I will align with whoever I feel as strongest or in charge right now so that I'm safe.
- [32:10]
Leo
It's possible. But I do wonder about the nature of Valya's challenge, that if you can follow me, if you can, like, believe in me and, like, you know, as the mother superior, then you live part of that voice command. The way that the voice works in Brian's universe, I think requires it more than just, I don't want to fucking die. I think other sisters might have had the same feeling. Feeling. And you're saying, well, she was the only one afraid of death. Of all of those sisters, it's like, I guess I think that there's, I don't know, room to negotiate in there somewhere.
- [32:45]
Abu
Yeah, there's certainly room for interpretation there.
- [32:47]
Leo
Yeah.
- [32:48]
Abu
Actually. Alain shouts out Avila. Elaine says Avila feels like the realest Bene Gesserit in the show to me. Very human remaining and enduring until she gets the upper hand. She's got potential as a character, for sure.
- [33:01]
Leo
Yeah. I mean, she's. She's got the teeth. She's got the teeth to be a great character. Still, one of my favorite comments from Luna with her chompers. Oh, my gosh. But, yeah, no, agreed.
- [33:14]
Abu
My shiny teeth and me.
- [33:15]
Leo
I think the Longer. The longer I've. I've spent thinking about Avila, the more I like her as a character. Just cool.
- [33:21]
Abu
Well, while we're on characters, there's a question I had highlighted from earlier from Ginsendiary. Ginsendiary said, I cannot wait to see a deepening of Desmond now that he's not a mystery box. Surprise. Everything you believe is wrong. What are you going to do? Yeah, I think that's. I agree. Desmond is finally someone who can participate in the story rather than just be a mystery in the story. And that opens up a lot of potential for season two.
- [33:49]
Leo
Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Really interesting. And again, this is where, like, I hope what they. We kind of agree they missed out on an opportunity with Mikaela, a really big opportunity to explore some of those themes and some of those conversations that she had. I think that there's a lot of opportunity now to explore, especially because you have Travis Mamel, who's, like, such a good actor. Like, give him some really juicy considerations and some, like, good conversations. Maybe he'll join Tula in the suspenser prison and he'll just talk to her and we'll get some, like, really excellent, you know, Tula, Desmond, both of them excellent actors. Just.
- [34:28]
Abu
There's a lot to work with with that relationship.
- [34:30]
Leo
Oh, totally. That'll be very interesting. It's also totally possible that he'll just be like, no. God. So we'll have to. We'll have to see.
- [34:42]
Abu
Gola asks, I forget, has the sisterhood already started the breeding program? In this.
- [34:48]
Leo
Yeah.
- [34:49]
Abu
In this show? Yes.
- [34:50]
Leo
Yeah, yeah. And part of it, like, Raquela. It was Raquela's kind of project of keeping track. And in the books, it's split. They have Mentats and they have sister Mentats who are helping to organize the data and stuff. But then they're using the thinking machines to project even further out and to keep track of that, like, huge wealth of data in just a more efficient way. So, yeah, they're.
- [35:17]
Abu
They're definitely.
- [35:18]
Leo
They're breeding, they're doing their eugenics.
- [35:21]
Abu
Elaine, with the great takes today, also says moving to Arrakis is a huge move that could really help the storytelling with Mikaela.
- [35:29]
Leo
Yeah, totally true.
- [35:30]
Abu
Mikayla's the only Fremen in the show that we know of. So being on Arrakis would potentially open doors to bring Mikaela back in.
- [35:38]
Leo
She's still alive. She's out there. I would be super, super shocked if they didn't. And it will be interesting to see Kind of the Fremen, it's something again, and I hate that I am now more familiar with some of Brian's books because the Fremen characters in Mentats of Dune and Navigators of Dune are just not like. It doesn't feel at all like the Fremen. And then you say, well, it's 10,000 years before, but still, I don't know, we're told so much about the Fremen in Frank's books that then when you completely throw all of that out and you say, well, it's early, so it's very different. It's like, yeah, but can it change that much? Or can it change in that direction? Or would it change in that direction? It feels very, very strange. But yes. And to Eli's point, there are still Fremen. There are Fremen already. According to Brian's lore, it's before Fremen and Frank's lore, but. Well, it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's before Fremen and Frank's lore, but Brian's lore, there's already Fremen, but they're called Freeman. And 10,000 years, they drop the E. Takes a long time to get rid.
- [36:42]
Abu
Of the E. It's cleaner.
- [36:44]
Leo
Drop the e. Drop the E. It's easier.
- [36:47]
Abu
You have a couple other notes here. You want to keep going through our notes.
- [36:51]
Leo
Yeah, there's a. There's just a kind of nice little moment when Valya decides to fully take over the sisterhood. She has the problem to solve, which is these followers of Dorothea. And ultimately it ends up being that she kills most of them. Right? But even in doing so, she uses the Voice. She uses this superpower she has, and her three friends all know it too. And she goes, we're gonna use the Voice to basically get rid of the competition. But it is worth noting, and this is something that I thought was resonant. She doesn't just say, kill yourselves. She doesn't just say, fucking leave me alone and don't be a problem for me. The thing that she forces them to do is to make a choice for themselves. And ultimately it is an ultimatum. So I'm not here giving her a gold star going, you're the best unblamed, you know, blameless person in the. In the universe. But there is something about. Like, her intention was to give them the opportunity, force them into the opportunity of choosing for themselves, which is somewhat redemptive. It's like a little bit like, oh, that is. She's still at the. At the heart of it is Having them make a choice and giving them an option for life. Even though she could very easily have, you know, just said, hey, everyone, slit your throats or whatever. Take out your blade. It's her favorite command. She uses it all the time. This time she could have used it again, but instead makes them choose instead. Which I thought was cool shoes. They all misheard. They were like, what?
- [38:36]
Abu
Right? What? My uncreased Jordans? Is that weird?
- [38:42]
Leo
She's like, what are those? Damn, Daniel.
- [38:47]
Abu
Okay, a couple of. A couple of other comments in the chat that I starred that I want to shout out or at least quickly comment on. Hanishment says the religious fervor of Desmond has strong Tleilaxu vibes for me, especially if he's a Gola and we didn't necessarily see a thinking machine. The Tleilaxu could have sophisticated machines.
- [39:08]
Leo
Yeah.
- [39:09]
Abu
I still don't think he's a Gola. I think that's a theory that a lot of fans have thrown out. And I think episode six all but confirms that he was saved during the worm attack by a mysterious force behind the scenes. And then the surgery is what saved his life and implanted the thing in his eyeball.
- [39:28]
Leo
Yeah. Also made him more plot resistant.
- [39:32]
Abu
Right? Explosion resistant, for sure.
- [39:34]
Leo
Explosion resistant. Strong organs. Knife stabbing resistant. Yeah. I think they say it's a thinking machine or they're using forbidden technology or something like that. There's a line where Valya identifies it as a thinking machine. So I think getting into the weeds of, like, is it driven by AI? Is it actually a thinking machine? I think in this universe, it's a very clear dichotomy at this point. It's like very obviously a thinking machine, or it's mechanical. It's just like a car that you drive.
- [40:07]
Abu
Yeah.
- [40:08]
Leo
Hennish Mintat follows up on the thing that I was just saying. I did appreciate the point about Valya making them choose. The command was choose. Interestingly, the Dorothea followers didn't choose sisterhood. Above all, they chose better version of the sisterhood over the sisterhood, which is an interesting point, which is true. It's like, hey, I'm the Mother Superior. This is what's going to define what the sisterhood is. And they go, notmysisterhood. So much so that that would even lead to infighting and could jeopardize the sisterhood at all. Like. Yeah, that's a good point. It's a savvy business decision from Valya.
- [40:45]
Abu
Here's another. You know what? This is something that I've been Wondering, too, why is Desmond resistant to the Voice if he's never had any training? Is that. Are we also chalking that up to thinking machine surgery? Plot armor?
- [41:01]
Leo
That's, you know, it just depends on how Brian wants the Voice to work, because even Dorothea, in the scene where Valya has her kill herself, resists the Voice, even though this is the third time the Voice has ever been used in the galaxy, ever. And she didn't know it was a thing. And she is able to think.
- [41:24]
Abu
She was completely caught off.
- [41:25]
Leo
Completely caught off guard.
- [41:26]
Abu
She resisted.
- [41:27]
Leo
She resisted. And it's just. It. I think in Brian's world, it's just kind of like force. If you just got a really strong aura. It's. If you're just like, just big dick energy. If you're just like swinging, just flopping around.
- [41:44]
Abu
You know who's immune to the Voice? Pete Davidson.
- [41:46]
Leo
Pete Davidson.
- [41:47]
Abu
It'll never work on him.
- [41:48]
Leo
Fully immune to the Voice. And you're like, how? And he's just like, ah. You're like, what the fuck? Yeah. So that's a good question. I think in lore that'll be interesting to explore. I do kind of suspect it's just the Voice is what it needs to be similar to. Someone else said they're frustrated how Lila just knew what she needed to know and Dorothea just knew what she needed to know in order for the final couple episodes to happen. That is also oftentimes how the Voice works and how Bene Gesserit abilities work. They don't have the ability when they should have the ability, and then they do have it when they probably shouldn't. And it's fun.
- [42:29]
Abu
Yeah. I also wanted to touch on Arrakis and where the season basically ended. The Thin King asks. So I'm personally not a fan of the move to Arrakis. I realize it's the heart of the original Dune book and what most fans want, but as a super fan, I want to see the rest of the universe.
- [42:49]
Leo
Yeah.
- [42:50]
Abu
I think that's a fair point.
- [42:51]
Leo
That's a totally fair point. And I'm right there with you. I do love. I think, like, ending on Arrakis is a great way to tee up a season two for people who maybe had that feeling of, I want this to be connected to Denis movies and, like, I want to see a familiar place. And I had that feeling of like, oh, wow, hey, we're back on Arrakis. Cool. But I think the thing that has been most fun about this show is like, seeing Wallach 9 and seeing Seleucus Secundus. And seeing. I agree, seeing Lankevale, like, seeing these very distinct places is very cool and I want to see more of that. So next time. Let's see. Higal. Let's see. Richeese. Let's see. I. Why not? As long as you treat it better than the fucking one guy we met from it. Let's see. Harmanthep. Let's see. Sure. What's the. What's the hedonistic planet Gamont?
- [43:47]
Abu
You mean my home planet of Gamma?
- [43:50]
Leo
Let's see. Gamma just put all of the sex scenes in one episode. All right. Get them out of the way. It'll make it a bonus, you know, upload it to pornhub, Dispense of the pre. You know, whatever.
- [44:03]
Abu
Yeah, yeah, I certainly understand. I, too, as a super fan, was very excited to be places that aren't Dune in this show. That was somewhat part of the marketing and the promise of this show as well. Right. We're going to take you places in the Dune universe you've never been. We're not gonna take you back to the Sandy Planet. And for what it's worth, we didn't go back to the Sandy planet for 99% of it until the very last scene. So they kept that promise. And I agree with you. I really liked seeing Wallach 9. I really liked seeing the set design and the costuming and the visuals were a very strong point for me. I really liked Seleucus, Condus and the palace and all that. But I do think a Dune story unfortunately has to be tied to Dune and in some way, and there's just like no escaping that in the ip. And I think that's something you can say about Frank as well. Right. We kept going back to Arrakis for a majority of Frank's books.
- [45:01]
Leo
Yeah.
- [45:01]
Abu
And we're very deeply tied to that planet and followed characters on that planet for Frank's books. So it's not something that Frank himself even. Even escaped and expanded from, although, you know, he expanded his universe in many ways.
- [45:16]
Leo
I just. I made the mistake. I completely agree, by the way. And I think, like, the core of Frank's universe is that Arrakis is very important. So, like, we're going to go back to it for sure. I also just. I made the mistake of scrolling. This is so mean to say on the podcast, but it was a meme from someone which is in our meme channel, because I was. I have one of the memes pulled up as, like, the meme of the week that I thought was so funny.
- [45:43]
Abu
Mm.
- [45:44]
Leo
But there's that. There's someone. Posted on December 29th, House Zadong posted. We taught this chimpanzee to understand the Brian Herbert Tune prequels and he hanged himself. That's so funny. That's really dark.
- [46:01]
Abu
That's dark.
- [46:03]
Leo
That's really funny though. I think we all now understand what people have felt over the last 20 years as Brian continues to release books. It's like, read them and feel like this is not my Dune. Or. Or. Or just like miss out on new Dune stuff. And Abu. I feel like we are slowly whittling down. We're like a. A rock in a. Yeah. Tumultuous sea. We are being eroded. And one day we will be alive.
- [46:29]
Abu
Yes.
- [46:31]
Leo
I don't know.
- [46:31]
Abu
Something I don't recommend doing is reading a Brian book and a Frank Herbert book at the same time, which I'm currently doing.
- [46:37]
Leo
Yeah.
- [46:39]
Abu
In preparation for a future episode. And my God, don't do that.
- [46:43]
Leo
Bold choice.
- [46:44]
Abu
Okay, we have a couple other points you wanted to hit on in our notes and then I do want to chat about some of our pre prepared questions as well. So do you want to keep going?
- [46:54]
Leo
Yeah, I'll get through this one quickly. This is the last point that I want to bring up, which is this conversation about like puppets versus puppeteers or another way to think about it would be like, who are the free agents and who are the people, like, actively doing things for the series? And the first like three or four episodes, it is such a Valya versus Desmond game. It is Valya moving her pieces, everyone who has to do it exactly as she says, and Desmond doing the same. He's basically calling every shot. He says, I'm loyal to the Emperor or the Empire. And he basically otherwise just does the fuck he wants and people have to deal with it. And those are the two, like, main actors, but by the end of the series, right, like we have these two 5D chess players facing off by the end of the series. We learn first over many episodes that Valia is clearly driven by revenge and anger and, and, and not exactly in as much of. Much of a, like, strategic mindset as we would have thought initially. She also, we learn in the final episode she has been ruled by fear and has had this like, deep, gripping fear since Griffin's death. And the fact that, did I kill Griffin? Did I, you know, am I at fault? All of that is in her character. We also learned that Desmond is a puppet turned into a machine weapon guy and manipulated by that evil silhouette. So I think this overall Switch up of the very beginning of the series and the final episodes where they basically. You realize that they are not necessarily as free as they might have seemed in the first episodes. Makes Valya's conversation with Tula first. It makes Valya's conversation with Tula that much more impactful because at the end of the series, Valya says, I'm not afraid anymore. I'm not, like, ruled by my fear. The fear isn't there for her. She's leveled up. And that is a very satisfying character arc to have Valya go on to realize, oh, I'm actually not as in control as I thought I was. I am beholden to this feeling that I have. And then to be free of that. What a great way to end a series or a season. Right. And then Desmond, we should write, like.
- [49:14]
Abu
A poem of bravery about it.
- [49:16]
Leo
Yeah. Fortune cookie of really not giving a shit. New title. Yeah. Meanwhile, Desmond overheard their conversation. So to someone's point earlier, he now has this information to potentially cut his own puppet strings in season two. And that's been, you know, that's been very cool to see as well. Where we. Where we have this, like, we see the world in one way. We realize by the end it's been a completely different way. But now the pieces are set up for a very interesting season two.
- [49:52]
Abu
Yeah. And it's always satisfying to break down and humanize what, at first glance, might appear as a legendary figure.
- [50:01]
Leo
Yeah.
- [50:01]
Abu
You know, or even on a smaller sense, someone who's in charge and has their shit together.
- [50:07]
Leo
Yeah.
- [50:07]
Abu
It is a fun storytelling device to peel back the layers of that character and be like, there's more here than you thought. And there may be not as put together as you thought and not as in charge as you thought, because that's something that's deeply relatable as a fellow human being who is not as put together as it may appear or is not as on top of his laundry as he should be. I can look at Vali and go, you know what? She makes the same mistakes I do. I get it.
- [50:36]
Leo
Yeah. I think that that's a great point. I think some of my favorite art is that art that reminds us that we're not alone and that a lot of people have the same human experience. And that's a good opportunity for art to kind of remind us that we're not alone. It's great.
- [50:50]
Abu
Right. Okay. I've starred. A couple of other questions. Some of these I think we can. Well, some of these are just logistical questions. Have we been saying this name I.
- [51:01]
Leo
Said Allej or alay Alej or Alay.
- [51:05]
Abu
Asks, is the Discord open to the public? It is not. If you sign up to be a patron then you get access to the Discord. Sphinxy asks, did anyone call you guys yet to consult about season two?
- [51:17]
Leo
No, not yet, but we are open to it.
- [51:22]
Abu
Yes, Fingers crossed. But also we're just two podcasters and so it would actually be quite absurd to call us to work on a multimillion dollar show.
- [51:33]
Leo
Also we keep shit talking Brian Herbert and he's an executive producer on the.
- [51:37]
Abu
Show so that very unlikely. But I appreciate all of you who think that that's actually likely. Gives me hope. Eli says ironically on my second watch through where I got the foreshadowing and more of the themes, I like prophecy a bit more. Will you be doing another watch Leo, at some point?
- [51:58]
Leo
Yeah, I think. I think I'll definitely do it leading up to season two. I also think it would be fun to do a like we did for for the first movie leading up to the second movie it'd be fun to do a watch along commentary of it. And just like that would be a.
- [52:16]
Abu
Six hour long just we're not doing six episodes or just one six hour long episode. You have to binge the whole thing in one sitting. No intermission, no potty breaks. You and me on mic for six straight hours.
- [52:30]
Leo
Get a catheter.
- [52:31]
Abu
Just Madeline if you're weak enough.
- [52:33]
Leo
Yeah, yeah, it's so weak you need a break. Not this show, not this podcast.
- [52:40]
Abu
Yeah, I'm sure before season two we will revisit it in some capacity. So it will be fun to look back on it like a year down the line.
- [52:48]
Leo
Yeah, totally.
- [52:49]
Abu
And see if our feelings are any different. Zaptages throwing out some fun ideas. Wouldn't it have been cool if each season time skipped thousands of years until the series caught up with the original Dune?
- [53:03]
Leo
That would be cool. Very, very foundation. Like where the through line is this kind of broader meta narrative be cool.
- [53:12]
Abu
That would be cool. I worry that it wouldn't be successful foundation actually when they adapted it. I was listening to an interview with David Esquire, the creator of that show, and he was talking about this very problem because the foundation book does skip like decades, centuries in between the different parts. And we talked about this on our foundation conversation, Leo on the episodes we did. But like it's consistent ideas, not consistent characters. Like a character that's introduced in these three chapters just doesn't come up again because we've time skipped 500 years in the future, suddenly. And that I think is harder to sell in television where things have to be a bit more character driven. I think in a novel you can be a bit more idea driven. And David S. Goyer talked about that too, where they basically had to. They were like, we can't do the time skip thing. We have to figure out a different way to tell this, to adapt this book into a TV show.
- [54:15]
Leo
Yeah, yeah. Anthology series, as Alex says. And apparently we can say Alex, so cool. Thank you, Alex, for that correction.
- [54:24]
Abu
Yes, Zaptages says, same with Three Body Problem. Exactly. The Three Body Problem book is very idea driven with weaker characters. And the Netflix adaptation had to make up characters that weren't in the book in order to tell a more character driven story.
- [54:37]
Leo
And it was so good.
- [54:40]
Abu
Yeah, I mean, the adaptation had its faults for sure.
- [54:44]
Leo
Really quick question that I got. And we can't put this up because I didn't. We didn't pre prepare it. But a good question about Dune prophecy. Someone emailed us on December 25 saying, at first I thought we were in a pre Mintats thing, like pre Mintats universe, but suddenly, a few episodes into the show, we get a name drop. And it just makes me ask, where are the Mentats, basically? And where are the Mentats? Is such an interesting question that I'm sure season two will somewhat address because, yeah, the idea of the Mentat school, which is happening right now in. In the same timeline, like somewhere there's, you know, Gilbertus Albans teaching his Mentat students and watching some of them get eaten by swamp dragons. And like, it's like it is happening and they're just not as present. And there are moments when you have characters going, man, I should get a Mentat. You know, and not everybody has them yet. So we're not. We're not to the point where Mentats are everywhere, you know, working for every great house. We're not there yet, but the Mentats are being trained, which is, you know, great.
- [55:55]
Abu
Yeah, I did want to. We're almost at time here, so if you have thoughts and questions, folks, drop them in chat. I did want to touch on. I think actually shouts to Elaine, because Elaine did a video on this and I watched it and it was very interesting. But there was an interview with Johan Renk. I think that's how you say his name. Apologies if that's not how you say his name. But in the playlist, Johan was interviewed about some other projects that he's working on, but they also asked him about Dune Prophecy and the writer asked him about Dune Prophecy. Didn't get a whole lot, but did. Did say this. So the writer was Rodrigo Perez. And he said, I tried to get the story out of Rank, but to hear it from him, the situation wasn't so much drama, but par for the course of how TV filmmaking goes sometimes. And he's talking about the production issues that Dune Prophecy had, the things that we've covered on this show a number of times. Actors coming and going, showrunners coming and going, title changes at once. It was called Dune Sisterhood, now it's Dune prophecy, creative changes, etc. Yohan rank was one of the directors who was meant to direct the the first episode, maybe also the second. Creative differences. He left the project. So he didn't spill a lot of tea in this interview. And he made it sound like, well, this is just how TV kind of goes. It's messy, there's back and forth, there's up and down, there's changes all the time before a TV show finally gets to production. But there are a couple of quotes from Johan himself that I thought were worth sharing. And these are just select parts of quotes. This is not one complete quote, to be clear. Johan said at one point, the original idea of the story completely changed course. That makes a lot of sense given the production changes. It changed names and became a completely different thing. He's talking about sisterhood to prophecy. Again. That's something that can happen in episodic tv. So he's kind of brushing it up to like, this is the process. This is just the creative process of making television. He went on to also say personally about himself, TV doesn't fulfill me as much as I need it to, because I don't like doing something and then walking away from it, because that allows other people to then go in and start turning it into what they want. And that makes sense as a director. If he sets the vision in episode one and two, that still leaves 3, 4, 5, 6 for other directors to come in. And TV shows usually have a bible. And it's the showrunner's job to keep things consistent across different directors across different episodes. But everyone has a different creative touch and they'll bring their own creative DNA to a project. And I think that's just something that Johan Rank didn't like. You know, TV's not for him.
- [58:36]
Leo
It sounds like, yeah, that's totally fair. I had an. I had a long conversation with someone because I'm learning about game development right now, and we were talking about comparing, like, oil painting to Making a video game and like what commonalities there are and what like what differences there are. And one of the things that came to mind was like most video games are collaborative and that just changes the whole nature of art. Like when you rely on a team, when it's a village making a thing, it's going to be a different process. And for sure, if you're directing and your name is attached to a product to have much less say in the final product. I can imagine that being not. Not everyone's cup of tea. Yeah, really quick comment from Pizza Party weekend. Why no mention of Orion Atreides in the TV show? He's a huge part of the Schools of Dune trilogy. He is mentioned like three times and then doesn't show up. And part of me thinks doesn't show up because again, focusing on the sisterhood and his plot, although it is motivating for Griffin, is not necessarily that really wrapped up in sisterhood junk in the school's trilogy. And then the other thing is him showing up I think would the lay people would be very confused by like okay, this guy's 250 years old and why is he a 30 year old? Like why is he in his mid-30s? And then you have to explain, well, he had a, he had a life extension surgery that made him live forever. And you go, what? But who did that?
- [60:11]
Abu
Anyway, yeah, he's a very confusing character. Like I'm reading Sisterhood of Dune. You have read the Houses trilogy and so much of, so much of Vorian who's a major character and gets a lot of fucking boring ass chapters in the book depends on you having read the other prequel books written by Brian and Kevin that are all about the Butlerian jihad and the. And there's all these like references to the League of so and so and the. And his dad Agamemnon and some drama there. And it's just like he's a very confusing character even in the book when you don't have that context. And so I think in the TV show to try and introduce that would be kind of an impossible task. Plus the TV show kind of takes place after all of that. So like is what is Vorine up to post that trilogy?
- [61:00]
Leo
Well, not post the trilogy.
- [61:02]
Abu
Is it a huge spoiler to say?
- [61:03]
Leo
And I don't know what he's up to after that. Maybe he dies. I don't know.
- [61:07]
Abu
Yeah.
- [61:08]
Leo
What the happens but in like Mintats in Navigators, he's still putting around.
- [61:12]
Abu
He's still around. Okay.
- [61:14]
Leo
Because even at the time of this trilogy, when Tula kills Ori, that all happens. And Vorian is in the village when that happens. And then he basically goes off with Ori's brother to hunt down Tula because she leaves a note that says, I'm going to keep hunting down Atreides until the day I die. So he and Willem go off to like, find her, but then basically go to Lankaveil and show up and actually like, talk to Valley's parents and. And they're like, we haven't seen Tula in a while. She's somewhere else. And then you learn that Tula is pregnant with Ori's kid. So Vorian is around and he. And he does interact with some of the characters that we've seen.
- [61:55]
Abu
Yeah.
- [61:56]
Leo
Still boring and weird.
- [61:57]
Abu
Yeah, that's the thing. And it's like, it's kind of a confusing. Because this show takes place after the school's trilogy, after those three books, timeline wise. Right. Am I correct in that?
- [62:08]
Leo
Say that again.
- [62:10]
Abu
Prophecy takes place after Navigators. Right? After, like after the trilogy of books. Technically, on the timeline.
- [62:16]
Leo
Oh, it depends on how. What else is going on in the universe?
- [62:20]
Abu
Jesus Christ. Okay, so, yeah, Vorine is like, question mark.
- [62:24]
Leo
Yeah.
- [62:25]
Abu
Omni Collective. I will say I agree with this. Omni Collective says if I was making shows, that would be something that's not my cup of tea, where the final product doesn't match my vision, which was the yawn rank thing I was talking about earlier, which I kind of agree with. You know, I find that the most powerful art that I consume is a singular person's vision. You know, obviously collaborators are necessary, but there is a detriment to too many hands in the kitchen. What's the phrase? Whatever that phrase is.
- [62:57]
Leo
Too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah.
- [62:58]
Abu
Too many cooks in the kitchen. Hands.
- [63:00]
Leo
Too many hands in the kitchen Hands.
- [63:01]
Abu
From Spy Family or not Spy Family. Spy Kids. Those hand people. I agree. And as a bit of a control freak myself, I understand the instinct to be like, I'm making just the first two episodes of this show that's gonna have my name on it and my imprint on it, but then you get to make the rest. Yeah, fuck that.
- [63:21]
Leo
I mean, a lot of like this artist is no longer questioned, and it's like their fingerprints are all over the whole. Whole work can be very, very good. But it's also like, leads to not good things too. Like, I can't help but think about death stranding. Where the game. Have you played death stranding?
- [63:39]
Abu
I love death stranding.
- [63:41]
Leo
Okay, but the ending. Fucking pisses me off so much.
- [63:46]
Abu
The hour long credit sequence. That's unskippable.
- [63:49]
Leo
The unskippable. So I was playing it live on Twitch.
- [63:52]
Abu
Look, one person's vision, okay, we don't.
- [63:55]
Leo
Question Kojima saying someone needed to be like Kojima, but buddy, pal, friend, comrade. The thing is, I was playing like, live on Twitch. And I was like, oh, what a great game. That was very fun. Loved this game. What a good game. And then someone in chat was like, you have three hours left. And I was like, there's no fucking way. There's no. And then, yeah, unskippable. Hour, hour and a half hour long cuts of.
- [64:20]
Abu
It was wild.
- [64:21]
Leo
And then you have like a boss.
- [64:23]
Abu
Battle and walking and shit.
- [64:25]
Leo
And it's like, what the fuck is happening? You needed someone in the room to be like, guy. Hey, guy. Let's. Yeah, let's tone this back.
- [64:35]
Abu
This. You know, I agree wholeheartedly, Leo. Everyone also needs a strong editor, but an editor's job is not to create the vision. Yes, the editor's job is to help hone and craft and provide outside feedback a thousand percent. But I think the vision has to come from one source. And that. That's where I believe the strongest works are created. And so that's a great point. Yeah, Kojima. I feel like, like, would you go up to Kojima and critique him? Because I certainly would be, like, scared to, but he could use an editor.
- [65:07]
Leo
He's such an unserious person, though. Did you see that?
- [65:09]
Abu
That's so true.
- [65:10]
Leo
Did you see that? That. That tweet where it was like. Someone said, he. He said it was an honor voicing the character Kojima in this, like, video game. This, like. And someone said, are you going to be reprising the role ever? And he said, no, it's like, it's an honor to voice Kojima. So I was like, oh, are you going to do that again?
- [65:29]
Abu
Yeah.
- [65:30]
Leo
No.
- [65:30]
Abu
Right. But, you know, like, I think very now we're like, way off topic. But, like, Miyazaki isn't a notoriously difficult person to work with from what I've read and heard, because he is so, like, this is my vision. This is the singular vision.
- [65:44]
Leo
Yeah, he was like, starboarding his whole fucking movies. He's like, here's my 600 pages. Don't touch it, don't touch it.
- [65:51]
Abu
Don't change your thing. And, you know, that's how Mad Max Fury Road kind of came together too. It was like a chaotic and awful production where Tom Hardy notoriously had the worst time of his life because of the way it was filmed. It was like one singular vision and storyboarded in this chaotic, crazy way. But obviously that vision came together and like that's. Yeah, that's kind of art. You can't make it alone and you need other people. But too many other people also dilutes it, in my opinion.
- [66:20]
Leo
Yeah.
- [66:20]
Abu
Alas, now we're talking about Metal Gear in the chat, so we've pivoted. I think that's a good note to end on. Perhaps I will.
- [66:29]
Leo
I will just toss in two quick comments.
- [66:32]
Abu
Okay.
- [66:33]
Leo
It just says as kind of parting gifts because I thought this was really lovely. Reddit User Elite Alice says quote for all volley is planning. Human emotions seem to be the one thing she's constantly overlooked. Consistently overlooked. Whether it's Tula falling in love with Atreides and having a kid, Yanez with the Atreides Swordmaster, Tula with Desmond, etc, etc. No long. No matter how strong a thinking machine is, it can't trump the human heart. End quote. Which I thought was a beautiful takeaway and sure, agreed. So good job, Alita. Alice. I liked that the foil to Valia's planning is people having attachments and she didn't even mention Francesca. You know, loving, loving.
- [67:18]
Abu
Actually loving. Havoc.
- [67:19]
Leo
Yeah. And it is very Bene Gesserit ever to Eli's.
- [67:22]
Abu
Eli's point. Very Bene Gesserit.
- [67:24]
Leo
And again, that is very within Dune's themes of seeing love and affection as weakness and then that ultimately being actually.
- [67:31]
Abu
Quite okay, let's wrap the stream up there. Thank you all so much for hanging out and for having such a great time with us. These are always so much fun. And again, this is the last prophecy livestream that we're gonna do, but I think this has been a really fun experiment for us.
- [67:48]
Leo
Totally.
- [67:49]
Abu
We haven't regularly streamed on Gom Jabbar in the past, but I think we will start to do so now. It's not gonna be every week because that's just like crazy for our schedules and we have other episodes in production to work on, but we will announce streams well in advance so that you can try and make time and participate. And I think we're going to continue to do this. So let us know what kinds of streams you would want. We already have some ideas on what we want to do, but of course if you have ideas, let us know as well. You can join the discord. You can email us all that good stuff.
- [68:19]
Leo
I want to do Dune Awakening Streams be so much fun.
- [68:23]
Abu
Yeah.
- [68:24]
Leo
All right, well, a little Bit of outro here. Before we let you go, dear listeners, we want to remind you of some ways to support the show and to keep in touch with us. And the two best ways, as always, is one, to be become a patron over at patreon.com gomjabar and to get yourself some Dune themed swag stuff related to this thing we all like at our merch store gomjabarshop.com those links are in the show notes. You can find them. Also we have them on the screen because we are fancy. We're fancy.
- [68:53]
Abu
Fancy. Hell yes. And of course we love to hear from you. So reach out to us. Gam jabbar podcastmail.com Someone earlier in the chat was like I pitched you my entire idea for a TV show. Did you read it? Yes, I read the whole thing over the holidays. Okay. It was a really long email and I didn't respond because it's daunting to respond to something like that. But I did read it. So we look at the emails. We're very behind. We'll catch up on them eventually. Gomjabarpodcastmail.com is the place to reach out and say hello, share your ideas, thoughts and cute pictures of your pets. Of course. Another quick reminder that if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter on Patreon at the moment, you can always send us a one time tip. That link is on the screen as well. Buy me a coffee. It's a great place to just send us a tip of any size. Any bit helps. And it continues to keep the show running, keeps the gears turning.
- [69:47]
Leo
True. Zaptasia says live drinking games and actually along those lines. I've never talked about these, but I actually have. This is from a company called Adroit Theory and it is a Sarda. This is a Fedeiken edition Imperial ipa and these are sand worms with some Fedayken Fremen Samurai warriors on the cans. And there's like three or four different ones and I and I have a couple in the fridge that I've been intending to like drink and talk about on, on camera at some point for like two years. And now I'm wondering if beers go bad.
- [70:31]
Abu
Two years. It has been a while.
- [70:34]
Leo
Yeah, I. And you have them somewhere. I think I gave you like two.
- [70:40]
Abu
I don't have them, Chad. I don't know where they are.
- [70:44]
Leo
He gave away, he lost the gift I gave him. Oh my God. He's still have the steel guard card though, right?
- [70:51]
Abu
Oh yeah. It's actually, it's here in the studio somewhere. It's not in the shot. It's, like, over there or something. Okay, gang, thanks so much for hanging out. We have another episode to go record because we're back on the grind. Episodes will start coming back out next week on the podcast feed, so we will see you then and we'll see you all on Discord. And thanks so much. We love you all. Bye bye, space.