Lost Entries: Origins of the Atreides/Harkonnen Feud

Summary

Gom Jabbar: Lost Entries – The Atreides Harkonnen Feud

Hosts: Abip & Leo
Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is part of Gom Jabbar’s "Lost Entries" series, bringing listeners an exclusive look into the unpublished articles unearthed from the Dr. Willis E. McNelly Collection at the Fullerton Archives. Today’s focus is on an unpublished, draft Dune Encyclopedia entry detailing the origin of the Atreides and Harkonnen feud—an entry never included in the final encyclopedia. The hosts, Abip and Leo, delve deep into the implications and narrative choices of this "alternate universe" version, examining its themes, its relationship to Frank Herbert’s canon, and debating whether this backstory enriches or diminishes the iconic feud.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: The Fullerton Archives Discovery

• The episode opens with a recap of the Fullerton Archives expedition in California (Spring 2025), where Leo and Luna found numerous unpublished Dune Encyclopedia manuscripts.
• These drafts include both alternate versions of published entries and completely unused material. Today's focus: a nine-page unpublished draft exploring the ancient Atreides-Harkonnen feud.

Quote:

"You almost could not have gotten this information from anywhere else. Kind of a Gom Jabbar exclusive in some way."
—Leo, [01:47]

2. Canonicity and Purpose (05:18)

• The hosts clarify that this entry is not canon and even contradicts other encyclopedia entries as well as Frank Herbert’s original works.
• Listeners are encouraged to treat the episode as an exploration of Dune "headcanon" or fun "what ifs."

Quote:

"Take this as headcanon or kind of fun what ifs or alternate universe... it's kind of fun speculation."
—Leo, [05:47]

3. Establishing Stakes: Why the Feud Matters

• The entry begins by interrogating the narrative role of the Atreides-Harkonnen feud:
  • It was the death of Leto Atreides—not just Paul's genetic makeup—that catalyzed the events of Dune.
  • Suggestion: if Leto survived, Paul might have remained a "rather accomplished member of the Landsraad" instead of Muad'Dib.
• The Bene Gesserit’s influence on both genetic and political/familial lines is emphasized.

Quote:

"Paul Atreides might simply have become a rather accomplished member of the Landsraad."
—Draft entry, [07:59], read by Leo

4. Bene Gesserit Machinations: The Breeding Program

• The real origins of the feud go beyond politics—the Bene Gesserit selected two bloodlines for their Kwisatz Haderach program, tying the feud intrinsically into their plan.
• According to breeding program histories, Reverend Mother Athene Hippotoma selected two lines: House Atreides and the proto-Harkonnens (then under different names).

Quote:

"...the Reverend Mother Athene Hippotoma singled out two genetic lines upon which to base the breeding program."
—Draft entry, [09:05], read by Abip

5. The Atreides Bloodline: Not Just Noble (11:16)

• Shock twist: The ancient Atreides were exceptionally violent, with a history of rampant fratricide and patricide.
• Story of Theestes Atreides: tried for killing his brother, discovers via a cook’s testimony that his brother had murdered and cooked Theestes’ own son, echoing Greek myth.
• The Bene Gesserit saw this brutality as a feature, not a bug—essential for their breeding goals.

Quote:

"Four different cases of fratricide. Whoa. Seven of patricide, and one of matricide. No, less than three other cases of matricide were also suspected by her."
—Draft entry, [11:08], read by Leo

• The entry invokes the myth of Atreus and Thyestes:
  "Atreus feeds Theesti his son, whom he murdered, as revenge, and it brings down a curse on the Atreus household and on his bloodline."
  —Abip, [14:26]

• Yet: Atreides also famous for inspiring loyalty—Agaman Atreides led 2 million in war, rewarding survivors, with a saying emerging:
  “To serve the Atreides ensures prosperity while alive. To die in the service of the Atreides ensures the prosperity of your family for eternity.”
  —Draft entry, [17:30], read by Leo

6. The Harkonnen (Proto-Harkonnen) Line: Scheming and Sly (18:32)

• These families weren’t "Harkonnen" until 7000 AG, contradicting established canon.
• Their specialty was con artistry and fraud, only turning to violence as a last resort.
• Notable figure: Ian Stromboshi—consolidated the line, adopted the Harkonnen name, inspired by the Byzantine Empire reputation for luxury.
• Led the house to vast power spanning 13 systems.

Quote:

"Always behaving with an almost aesthetic sense of style, these people frequently so won over their victims with such cleverness that charges were rarely pressed."
—Draft entry, [21:34], read by Abip

7. Bene Gesserit Strategy: When Natural Selection Isn't Enough (29:46)

• By 7682 AG, the Sisterhood had channeled bloodlines to preserve Atreides/Harkonnen core traits, preventing "burn out."
• But after centuries of mixing, traits were diluted—they needed a drastic measure.

8. The Drastic Solution: Orchestrating the Feud (31:05)

• Reverend Mother Helenus Gaius proposed engineering a bloody feud:

  • "The weakest members or those who lacked imagination and ability would die, leaving the best of each to carry on their lines."

• The Bene Gesserit catalyzed the feud by exploiting a coincidence on Somoza: an Atreides officer is mysteriously killed; the Sisterhood incites a revenge spiral.

• String of Atrocities:

  • Duke Leon Atreides—orders alleged murderer and all their available relatives dissected into pieces; pieces arranged as a mosaic of the Atreides crest on the victim’s home floor.
  • Baron Victor Harkonnen—poisons Duke Leon in retaliation.
  • Duke Alexander Atreides—walks into Harkonnen palace on Giedi Prime, "disembowels the Baron and a boy... then just as casually left the planet without being suspected."
  • The pattern of retaliatory killings, with the Bene Gesserit whispering in the right ears, continues for two thousand years, culling hundreds of core family members and over 50,000 followers.

Quote:

"Alexander casually walked into the Harkonnen palace... and disemboweled the Baron and a boy who was then the Baron's companion. The Duke, then just as casually left the planet without being suspected."
—Draft entry, [36:33], read by Leo

9. Outcome: The Kwisatz Haderach Ingredients Are Ready (38:44)

• By 10176 AG (setting of Dune), the plan had succeeded:
  • The Atreides now epitomize "military efficiency and cautious intelligence."
  • Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen exemplifies "sly Harkonnen cunning but did not fear direct physical action."
• The draft reflects: the long feud, while tragic, led to the birth of the individual that "embodied the bloody soldier and the polished diplomat"—Paul, via Jessica.

Quote:

"The feud between House Atreides and the Harkonnen did produce the single individual within whom the bloody soldier and the polished diplomat dwelled. The Lady Jessica's own Harkonnen blood saw to that."
—Draft entry, [40:28], read by Leo

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Ancient Atreides Violence:
  "Folks, that's way too many 'cides.'" —Abip, [11:35]

• On the absurdity of the story:
  "If you walk like a maniac, talk like a maniac, and smell like a maniac, you might be a maniac." —Leo, [34:00]

• On the role of the Bene Gesserit:
  "...I find it incredibly boring for the Bene Gesserit to always be Forrest Gumping it and to show up at every critical junction in human history and to make them the reason that things happen all the time."
  —Abip, [45:48]

• On Atreides/Harkonnen legacy:
  "We already know House Atreides is great. They are a little bit more gray than you expected."
  —Leo, [57:52]

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Major Timestamps for Reference

• [03:35] – Housekeeping ends, introduction to the Fullerton Archives discovery.
• [05:18] – Canonicity clarification, impact of unpublished status.
• [06:31] – Begin detailed summary of the unpublished encyclopedia entry.
• [11:08] – Initial Atreides bloodline analysis: fratricide, patricide, and Theestes myth.
• [17:30] – Atreides “ride or die” loyalty: agaman and the prosperity proverb.
• [18:32] - [24:39] – History of proto-Harkonnen line (Ian Stromboshi, rebranding).
• [29:46] – Bene Gesserit risk and strategy: introducing the manufactured feud.
• [31:05]–[38:00] – The escalation: atrocity, retaliation, 2,000-year spiral, 50,000 dead.
• [40:28] – Arrival at Dune era: Bene Gesserit’s ultimate "success."
• [41:36]–[49:21] – Host debate: Should this story have ever been published?
• [49:21]–[59:33] – Leo’s response: In defense of the entry; thoughts on moral grayness.
• [59:53] – Reflecting on McNelly’s editorial decisions; future archival plans.

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Host Reflections: Should This Have Been Published?

• Abip’s Critique:
  • Felt the origin was better left a mystery.
  • Criticized the repeated trope of the Bene Gesserit being the puppetmasters behind everything.
  • Called the “Atreides were always awful” twist amateurish and reductive.
  • Feared this backstory would shrink the story and undercut the themes of ambiguity and nuance in Dune.

Quote:

"Feuds are dumb... Who even fucking remembers how this started? We're just feuding because we're feuding. And thematically speaking, that's kind of the whole point."
—Abip, [43:50]

• Leo’s Counterpoint:
  • Enjoyed seeing Atreides’ moral grayness, making Duke Leto "an anomaly."
  • Saw value in the in-universe historian approach; not every gap needs to inform narrative directly, can be fun or illuminating.
  • Was not bothered by the "Bene Gesserit behind it all" motif, tying it back to Frank Herbert’s canon and moral ambiguities.

Quote:

"The entire Dune Encyclopedia is a 'we didn't need to know...'"
—Leo, [52:04]

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Final Thoughts

• Both hosts agree that this draft is a thought-provoking, if uneven, window into the broader Dune universe—and a testament to the editorial process behind the Dune Encyclopedia.
• Leo and Abip suggest future episodes might analyze the surviving correspondence between editors, to better understand what shaped the encyclopedia’s final form.
• The episode is a must-listen (or, in summary form, a must-read) for Dune fans fascinated by alternate histories, lore deep-dives, and the philosophical underpinnings of canon versus speculation.

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“There is no real ending. It’s just the place where you stop the recording... Whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.”
—Leo, [61:57]

Transcript

[Leo]

Today on the show, we are cutting right to the core of one of the oldest feuds in the Dune universe, brought to you from the depths of the Fullerton archives.

[Abip]

Oh, for a second, I thought you were gonna say brought to you by Shadow Legends. Use our code foundrybar6969 to get.

[Leo]

Brought to you by Squarespace. No. Brought to you by Lowe's. Get it at Lowe's. No. Arby's. We've got the meat.

[Abip]

No, somebody's got the meats.

[Leo]

Somebody's got the meats. I think it might be House Atreides. Or maybe it's House Harkonnen. We'll find out today.

[Abip]

We'll find out today. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abip.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abip]

And, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Welcome back to another episode brought to you by Leo's Incredible Journey.

[Leo]

Arby's. Oh, sorry.

[Abip]

Oh, somebody's got the meats.

[Leo]

Somebody. Where are the meats? The butcher, I heard. Last I heard, the butcher's got him.

[Abip]

No, no. Jokes aside, folks, today's episode is brought to you by the amazing work that you and Luna do. Did out in California in the Fullerton archives, when we dug through all of the wonderful material on Dr. Willis E. McNelly and Frank Herbert related to Dune and the wider Dune universe. And today's gonna be a fun one, I think.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

We picked out a particular unpublished Dune encyclopedia article to talk about.

[Leo]

Yeah. You almost could not have gotten this information from anywhere else. Kind of a Gom Jabbar exclusive in some way. Yeah.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But before we get into it, and we will kind of catch you up on what whole series is. Because it has been a minute. Let's get our housekeeping out of the way. And starting off for our spoiler warning, we are talking about the Atreides Harkonnen feud today. So today's conversation will contain spoilers for the first book and, like, very light spoilers for Dune Messiah. Right. Since the feud basically stops mattering after those first two books.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

So if you have seen Denis Villeneuve's films, if you've read the first book, you're basically good to go.

[Abip]

That's right. And of course, up top, before we forget, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Redden, Greer Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahanram, and Roger Young.

[Leo]

Dang.

[Abip]

My goodness.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Folks, if there was a feud between us and our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, there would be signs. There would be bloody signs. Okay? And that's all I'm gonna say about that. Keep an eye out for the signs. When and if a feud begins.

[Leo]

I don't think it will. They're too nice and we're too grateful.

[Abip]

That's true.

[Leo]

That's true. That's unstoppable. Gratitude meets an unmovable generosity. It's incredible. It's incredible. Yeah. And of course, our thank you extends to all of our patrons. Maybe we'll just have a feud with all of our patrons versus everyone. There we go. But seriously, we cannot make this show without the support of our patrons. So thank you all. And if you are not in a place to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, of course, we do have a one time donation tip link that's in our show notes. Very, very helpful as well. So thank you to everyone who helps keep the lights on, so to speak.

[Abip]

That's right. Okay, folks, with the housekeeping out of the way, let's talk about today's episode and what we're going to be covering.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abip]

So as a reminder, Leo, you and Luna made this trip out to California, spring of 2025, to dig into the Fullerton Archives. Dr. Willis E. McNelly Collection. That's what the collection is called.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abip]

And in particular, we found a ton of documents and we've been sharing the occasional episode about the discoveries we made there. In particular, what you found there was a folder containing Dune encyclopedia manuscripts.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Some of which correlate with, of course, the encyclopedia that we have always talked about on this podcast.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abip]

Some of which are just drafts that were either never completed or never published or were in some version of the encyclopedia at some point and had to be cut.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

And that is what today's episode is going to be about. We're still digging through these documents. There's over 200 documents that need to be compared with the final published encyclopedia and what was in the archives. We're digging through all of that, and as we slowly uncover interesting tidbits, we are sharing them with you, our dear listeners. So today's episode is part of our ongoing Lost Entries series where we bring you an exclusive look at these documents and the treasures that they contain. And in particular, like we said up top, we're going to be looking today at an unpublished draft entry from the archives that talks about the Origins of the Atreides and Harkonnen Feud. It's about a nine page entry that we're going to be covering today.

[Leo]

Indeed. Now, an important note on canonicity, as always. Just as a reminder, the entry we're talking about today was never published and thus is not canon in the Dune universe in particular, today's entry does conflict with other elements of the Dune Encyclopedia as well as Frank's own canon. So I think that you should, dear listener, take this as headcanon or kind of fun what ifs or alternate universe. It's kind of fun speculation.

[Abip]

It is.

[Leo]

And again, written by the same authors, the same people that we so celebrate with the Dune Encyclopedia, but just didn't make it into the published book.

[Abip]

That's right. We just wanted to make that super duper clear up top before we actually get into the meat and potatoes of the discussion. Indeed, but with all of the housekeeping and all of the caveats and all of the intro stuff out of the way, folks, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere, though. When we come back, we're learning all about the origins of the Atreides and Harkonnen Feud. Yeah, we'll see you in a minute. Refreshing Wild Cherry Cola meets Smooth cream. The treat you deserve. Pepsi Wild Cherry and cream.

[Leo]

Treat yourself. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break and I hope you're ready to get into the Atreides Harkonnen Feud. Now the entry begins. Before we even talk about the feud, the entry begins by outlining the stakes of why are we even talking about the feud? Like, what does the feud contribute to? Yeah, what role does it play in galactic history and Paul's jihad? Following the first book, the Intrigue posits, it only really makes sense when you understand the familial pressures that were building over millennia. Now, while it is true the Bene Gesserit were the ones that prepared Paul with his genetic gifts, that made the jihad possible, made him the Kwisatz Haderach. It was in many ways the death of Leto Atreides that inspired his claiming of the throne and Shaddom's uncreased tribe Jordans that we often talk about.

[Abip]

Yes, exactly.

[Leo]

Give me your fucking shoes, old man. Now, the entry briefly speculates that, yeah, if Duke Leto hadn't died, maybe Paul just would have been like a middling, kind of pretty successful fella, you know? Here's the quote from the Intrigue quote. Paul Atreides might simply have become a rather accomplished member of the Landsraad. End quote. And man, what a boring what if, right? Imagine if nothing really happened a lot and he just kind of lived.

[Abip]

Right?

[Leo]

But still, it is worth noting that, yeah, it was this trap that was sprung on his father that led to him making a play for the throne, basically.

[Abip]

Right? A trap that only existed because of a thousands long year feud between these two houses and these two families.

[Leo]

It was the cherry on the top that broke the camel's back. To mix metaphors. Now, what's easy to overlook in all of this is how directly involved the Bene Gesserit were, even with shaping the political and familial pressures as well. And that's something that the entry really takes its time to establish at the top, right?

[Abip]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we've talked at length on the show about theories that the Bene Gesserit orchestrated the destruction of House Atreides. But in this entry it makes it clear that that potentially goes way further back than just the events of Arrakis in the first book. Perhaps even all the way back to the beginning of the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program. This feud might be intricately tied with that entire program itself that the Bene Gesserit have been working toward for thousands of years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Here's a quote from this entry. Quote, according to crystals containing the history of the Bene Gesserit breeding program, the Reverend Mother Athene Hippotoma singled out two genetic lines upon which to base the breeding program. Program. End quote.

[Leo]

And folks, oh my gosh. Yeah.

[Abip]

You'll never guess which two genetic lines they're going to base this program on.

[Leo]

Oh, gosh. Richesians and House Mortani. House Mortani, Yeah. House oros from the 1992 video game. Yeah. No, no, no. Two bloodlines. And let's talk about the first one. And we're going to play a little bit of a game, okay? So, dear listeners, we're gonna tell you about one of the bloodlines and you get to guess which one you think we're talking about and we'll see if you're right. Okay?

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And if you're correct, you give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And if you're wrong, you also give us a five star rating on Apple Podcast and Spotify because what a fun game. What a fun game that's at the stake.

[Abip]

We're all having fun here. Okay?

[Leo]

This is fun. Five stars of fun. That's what we're having. So here are some details about this genetic line, this bloodline quote, distinguished itself by its proclivity for violence. End quote.

[Abip]

Ooh.

[Leo]

Members of the family often died to violence, but that they instigated, following the cosmic rule of, you fuck around and you find out.

[Abip]

Okay, okay, I have a guess. I have a guess. I know where this is headed.

[Leo]

Yeah, me, too. We have the script, though. We're cheating. Now, this family, this bloodline, involves a ton of internal bloodshed. Fathers against fathers, sons against sons. Quote, four different cases of fratricide. Whoa. Seven of patricide and one of matricide. No, less than three other cases of matricide were also suspected by her. End quote.

[Abip]

My goodness.

[Leo]

My goodness. Nothing holds them back from killing. Okay, now, dear listeners, lock in your guesses.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

I want that.

[Abip]

Do it.

[Leo]

The. Whatever. The. What's the. Billy Mail. Is that your final guess? Final answer. And you're correct. We are, in fact, talking about House Atreides. The one and only. The one and only. Ever heard of it?

[Abip]

Wow. Obviously, we're being a bit facetious here. This is shocking.

[Leo]

Yeah. Surprise.

[Abip]

Describe the history, the ancient quote, unquote history of house Atreides 10,000 years ago as an extremely violent family. Four different cases of fratricide, seven of patricide. Folks, that's way too many sides. There's actually. The entry goes on and gives us actually a story about a certain theeste Atreides that helps illustrate the bloodlust and the bloodshed within House Atreides at this time. A quality in particular that the Bene Gesserit were looking for. For their breeding program.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

So here's how the story goes. The entry describes how 82 years after the end of the Butlerian jihad, Fieste Atreides was put on trial for killing his brother. During his defense, to everyone's surprise, the Este is like, yeah, fucking did it. It was me. I killed my brother.

[Leo]

Killed him. Yeah.

[Abip]

But he justifies it. He says, okay, I did it. But hear me out, jury.

[Leo]

Yeah, hear me out.

[Abip]

My brother is a monster. So, honestly, I did us. I did us all a favor. You're welcome.

[Leo]

Yeah. Which is a crazy defense. I don't recommend anyone do that in court. That is not. I don't think that's. I don't think that gets you off innocent.

[Abip]

No, typically not. But you know what? He goes further. He's like, you don't have to take my word for it. I have a witness who can prove that my brother is a monster. So the defense brings out their star witness. It's the cook from the Atreides household who, under Oath claims that just six months prior, the murdered brother had killed his own nephew.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abip]

AKA Theestes eldest son.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abip]

And quote, then had ordered the cook to prepare a dish with the body as its main ingredient. And quote, that's. And this cook, instead of like, going to the proper authorities after getting a order like that, my God. Just accepts that his job is to do what he's told and follows orders.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abip]

And then Theesti is invited to dinner with his brother and is unknowingly served a meal that contains the remains of his own son.

[Leo]

Unreal.

[Abip]

Horrific stuff.

[Leo]

Horrible. Yeah.

[Abip]

I also want to say if this sounds familiar to folks, because I was reading this and I was like, this all sounds really familiar. Have I read this before? This is effectively lifted from the Greek mythological story of the character named Theestes and his brother Atreus. This is like a Greek mythological story. There's more to the Greek myth part of it. This is like a simplified take on it, but the essence is the same. Atreus feeds Theesti, his son, who has. Who he murdered.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abip]

As revenge, and it brings down a curse on the Atreus household and on his bloodline.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abip]

Yeah. It's awful. I mean. I mean, it is awful for Theisti. And honestly, at this point, if I was part of the jury, acquit. I'd acquit him. I'd be like, yeah, okay, great. Your brother sounds awful. He was a monster. You did us all a favor.

[Leo]

Guilty. No, no sentence. Free to go.

[Abip]

Yeah, yeah, Good riddance. Honestly, we're rid of your brother. Jesus Christ. Also, can we. Can we hold the cook accountable? Maybe a little bit.

[Leo]

Yes. Yeah. Get a new cook. Get a cook with some morals. Jesus.

[Abip]

Truly. Truly. So we share this story, and the reason this story exists within this Dune encyclopedia entry is because it pertains to what the Bene Gesserit are looking for for their breeding program for them. This type of cruelty on display from Theestes brother, but also from Theeste himself, who decided to kill his brother. This is a feature, not a bug. This is exactly the ingredient the Bene Gesserit are looking for to start their Kwisatz Haderach program.

[Leo]

Yeah. They kind of explain it as like, that kind of cruelty is the sort that gets. Gets the fucking thing done.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like, I can't help but think of, like, Ender Wiggin in the beginning of Ender's game.

[Abip]

Totally.

[Leo]

Doesn't he, like, kill the bully and the guy goes, why did you kick him that extra time or whatever you had already won the fight. Why did you go further? And he said, to win all the future fights, basically.

[Abip]

Yep. Yes, I remember that scene. Yeah.

[Leo]

That idea of, like, their brutality and their murderousness and that kind of viciousness is a method to make sure their enemies never fuck with them, basically.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

But. Right, man. When it comes to, like, fratricide and that kind of shit, that is. That's. That's a really tough look.

[Abip]

It's tough.

[Leo]

It's a tough look. Now, that being said, we are talking about House Atreides. And House Atreides, of course, in the Villeneuve films and in the book, is known for inspired loyalty. And Ride or Dies. Where did that come from? Well, that's also present during this time. Inspiring loyalty. Also an undeniable piece of the family's history. And famously, Agam Agamon. I don't know this Digimon. Agamon. Agaman. Atreides rallied over 2 million troops into a war of attrition that lasted over 20 years.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And you might think, yeah, you've been conscripted into the Atreides army. You're like, fuck this. I'm in this war of attrition. I've been in this war for 18 years. This sucks. But following the battle, he rewarded his men royally. And soon after the victory, a saying became popular and this is truly wild quote. To serve the Atreides ensures prosperity while alive. To die in the service of the Atreides ensures the prosperity of your family for eternity. End quote.

[Abip]

Wow.

[Leo]

Which. Damn, that's pretty. That's. That's a five star rating for sure. I mean, these are soldiers going off to war and going. Yeah, but either I come out of it alive and I live a prosperous life, or I don't and my family's taken care of forever. And that's a piece of this bloodline, the Atreides bloodline, that is so attractive to the Bene Gesserit.

[Abip]

Yeah, definitely. If your priority is for your employer to follow through with their promises and take care of you as long as you do the atrocious things they ask of you. Yeah, the Atreides is a pretty good gig.

[Leo]

Yeah. You know?

[Abip]

You know, look him up on LinkedIn. Hit them up.

[Leo]

They have open roles. Surprisingly right now, you know.

[Abip]

Exactly. Okay, so that's the first bloodline that is the Atreides 10,000 years ago that the Bene Gesserit had their eyes on.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abip]

In order to start their Kwisatz Haderach program. But, folks, it takes two to tango. And it also Takes two to create the Kwisatz Haderach. So let's talk about the second bloodline that's super important here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Which, of course, are the Harkonnens. But according to this entry, they were not known as the Harkonnens at this time. In fact, they weren't even named the Harkonnens until around the 7000 AG.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Which dramatically basically contradicts everything we know about the Harkonnens and the tradies and their history, like, within the wider Dune canon, the established canon. So this is another reminder that some of the details in this unpublished draft contradict things in the encyclopedia and things in primary Dune canon.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

So, again, we're talking a what if scenario today. Don't take anything we're saying as gospel. It does not actually affect real Dune stories going forward.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abip]

Or Dune stories that have been officially published.

[Leo]

Right. We're not going to see Fieste in Dune Part 3.

[Abip]

Exactly. Exactly. So let's talk about the history of the Harkonnen line, then.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

According to this entry, the Harkonnen genetic line goes back into this mess of families who were known for their ability to commit fraud and for their rampant plotting and scheming, essentially.

[Leo]

I love that. Like, you're at the cul de sac and you're like, oh, yeah, those are the Johnsons. They throw great, great parties on the weekends.

[Abip]

Yeah. Oh, great barbecues.

[Leo]

Great Barbie. They got a pool. It's wonderful. Those are the Millers. They're both super creative. They do photography. They're great.

[Abip]

Yeah. Real artsy kids. Yeah.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, them. The Stromboshis fraudsters. They're all.

[Abip]

You watch out. You watch out for them, Jimmy.

[Leo]

Watch out, Jimmy.

[Abip]

Don't accept anything Mr. Stromboski ever gives you.

[Leo]

Stromboshi. Because he's definitely not Polish. Just to be clear. I thought that. I read. Every time I read this name, I was like, stromboski. Yeah. From Brooklyn. It's like, no, no. Strombosi or Strombosi. There might be some other way to say it, but again, I lived in Brooklyn for 10 years, so I keep saying, oh, yeah. Ian Stromboshi.

[Abip]

That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly it. That's from our understanding of this encyclopedia entry, that is how these families were viewed. And again, this is a feature, not a bug. The Bene Gesserit want them for exactly this quality. For example, the encyclopedia states that they had sort of mass. These families that were intermixing had mastered the art of bullshitting that they were some of the best con artists out there in the Imperium. Quote, always behaving with an almost aesthetic sense of style. These people frequently so won over their victims with such cleverness that charges were rarely pressed. End quote. They got away with it.

[Leo]

I love that detail. You're like, oh, yeah, he did take all my money. But, like, he looked so fucking cool doing it. And that was so cloud. All right, I'll let him have it. You can keep it.

[Abip]

Yeah, and look, we want to be extremely clear here, folks, and the entry is clear about this as well. Just because we're saying these people were con artists and they got away with stuff, and maybe they were very suave and stylish and you'd never suspect them of anything, it doesn't mean they also weren't murderers.

[Leo]

Of course. Yeah, yeah.

[Abip]

If push came to shove, they would also kill. But because they are such excellent con artists, they didn't have to resort to violence all the time. Yeah, it really was a last resort for this group of families who were out here clearly pickpocketing the shit out of everybody in the Imperium.

[Leo]

Oh, truly. I think the entry says it's like, to prevent a witness from testifying in court, they would kill. But otherwise they were. They were just like. Yeah, they would. They would trick their way to success.

[Abip]

That's right. So, in short, the entries basically summarizes, quote, slyness was their chief weapon. End quote. Yeah, they're not going to reach for the blade first, but they do have a blade. Just in case.

[Leo]

Just in case. It's a bloody universe, you know, People are out here. It's a futile bloody universe. People are killing each other.

[Abip]

Yes. Yes, indeed.

[Leo]

We all do what we have to. Now. By the year 7682 AG, these various families, the Bene Gesserit, had whittled them down through scheming and plotting. The Bene Gesserit, their machinations had basically reduced them to one clean, easy to control line, bloodline headed. I already said this name, but headed by Ian Stromboshi. Not Strombowski, as I keep wanting to say. Ian Stromboshi, who was left rich and clever and powerful in 13 different systems.

[Abip]

Wow.

[Leo]

So I see this as, like the whole tri state area. All of the different mob families have been, like, killed off or, like congealed into one. And this guy Ian is sitting at the top of the pile.

[Abip]

That's right. Head of the Falcones.

[Leo]

He's. Yeah. Tony Falcone, dead. Frankie Falcone dead. Who's alive? Ian Stromboshi.

[Abip]

I recently watched the penguins, so that's just top of mind, which is a great show, by the way.

[Leo]

It's so good. Yeah, I hear it's amazing. I haven't seen it yet. Well, it's at this point, Stromboshi was pretty fucking tired of all the penguin Brooklyn jokes. Because Stromboshi actually rebrands he names his family. He goes, listen, I'm powerful in 13 different systems. I can call the shots. And the shot I'm calling right now, we are no longer called the Stromboshis or whatever. We are called the Harkonnens. Referencing back to a distant ruler in the Byzantine Empire.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Quote the name exemplified his desire to create an empire that imitated an ancient civilization noted for its luxuriousness. End quote. He's like fur on every one day a great, great, great, great, great grandson of mine is going to have a table made of drugs. I am calling it here and now. And everyone's like, wow, that seems far fetched.

[Abip]

That's right.

[Leo]

So by ian's death in 7697 AG, House Harkonnen had become astonishingly powerful. In just his lifespan, he managed to basically make House Harkonnen more powerful than House Atreides even, which had been around for, you know, 7,000 years longer.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

And the Bene Gesserit had witnessed all they needed to with this bloodline that they had whittled down. House Harkonnen was, in their estimate, the perfect complement for House Atreides. And so a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother at that time basically notes to the broader sisterhood. We have completed phase one. We have identified and we have, like, boiled down these two bloodlines to exactly the qualities we want. Now it is time for phase two.

[Abip]

Love it, folks. And you know, this isn't a spoiler warning. Phase two involves a bloody feud.

[Leo]

Involves a bloody feud. Yeah. Indeed. Yeah.

[Abip]

So that's phase one. Those are the two bloodlines that are going to be key to the Kwisatz Haderach program and the Bene Gesserit have been grooming and preparing them for this very moment. We're now ready for phase two, folks. But before we dive into phase two, let's take another quick break. Hang tight. When we come back, we're talking about how this feud got started. We'll see you in a minute.

[Leo]

Yes. This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen. You show up, you stay glued, invested, part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and series. Fandango loves fans.

[Abip]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Leo]

It is an honor to share.

[Abip]

No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Leo]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Welcome back, everybody. I hope you're ready for a feud. So, after thousands of years, the Bene Gesserit finally had their two bloodlines ready. The Kwisatz Haderach. The dream of the Kwisatz Haderach was becoming a reality. And they had their two core ingredients. They had the Atreides. Ruthless, efficient, bloody, murderous, but inspiring great loyalty and commanding a lot of respect within their own kind of populace. And House Harkonnen, sly beyond compare. Willing to fucking do whatever it took to win over their own victims. Even as they mounted, you know, social piles and whatever through cunning. Right. The problem was that both families were burning extremely hot. And by Bene Gesserit estimates, within a matter of centuries, both would begin to decline in power, in influence. And. And those qualities that the Bene Gesserit were interested in. And so the Bene Gesserit, thinking about the loss of the Kwisatz Haderach program, entered full crisis control, directing new genetic lineages into the two families, generation after generation, basically. Okay, maybe that guy's killing too many of his family members. Let's bring in a bloodline that's a little bit more family oriented. The Johnsons. Let's get the Johnsons in there. And the. That'll, like, tame down House of Trade. He's just set up a mute cube. Yeah, you just. He dropped his bag of baguettes. And she also dropped her bag of baguettes. I live in France now. Everyone's carrying bags of baguettes.

[Abip]

Oh, no. And now all the baguettes are mixed up. Which one is your baguette? Oh, no.

[Leo]

Which one's yours? Which one's mine? I don't know. Let's kiss. We should just kiss, I guess. Let's we should just kiss and figure out. That is what living in France is like. This was how they did it. They basically channeled these bloodlines in, which is great. And in that way, they kept the families from degenerating. They actually succeeded. They kept them in their strong qualities, and they kept them from losing influence and burning too hot, basically. But 500 years had passed, and they were no closer to the sort of, like, purity of qualities they needed for the Kwisatz Haderach to be within reach. Yeah, they needed to do something a little bit more drastic.

[Abip]

Right, right. You can imagine like introducing new bloodlines into the Atreides and Harkonnen to keep the core genetics alive also sort of dilutes the pool a little bit, which is not exactly what the Bene Gesserit are aiming for. Right. They need the perfected and purified final forms of the Atreides and the Harkonnen so that those two forms can be crossed into the Kwisatz Haderach.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abip]

And having to constantly dilute that over and over again slows that whole process down. So they're like, okay, we need another plan. We need to take more drastic actions.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abip]

So this is where someone dug up from the archives.

[Leo]

It's crazy. Yeah.

[Abip]

A very dramatic solution that apparently back then had been shelved, but now has been brought back out and dusted off. So back in 7862 AG, hundreds of years ago, a certain Reverend Mother Helenus Gaius had proposed this dramatic solution. She had said that the Sisterhood should establish a bloody feud between these two important Houses in order to purify the bloodlines. Quote, the weakest members or those who lacked imagination and ability would die, leaving the best of each to carry on their lines. End quote.

[Leo]

What a crazy fucking risk. Are you kidding me? Wow.

[Abip]

That's a huge risk. Of course. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Leo. But it is this sort of, like, forced and manufactured survival of the fittest imposed upon these two bloodlines. Right. We're going to force you to evolve and for the weaker ones of you to die off so that the stronger ones can continue to purify the bloodline. Obviously, that also runs the huge risk of losing one or both of the bloodlines if they destroy each other in this bloody feud. So it's a drastic measure. But clearly, after hundreds of years of not making much progress toward the Kwisatz Haderach, the Sisterhood is ready to reconsider this dramatic proposal from Reverend Mother Helena's Gaius. And in fact, they decide okay. Shit. It's time. Let's do it. Let's implement this plan to start a feud between these two families in order to speed up the purification of the bloodlines. So here's how the story goes. Following the death of an Atreides officer who was mysteriously killed just hours after landing on Planet Somoza, which was a planet at that time held by Baron Victor Harkonnen, the Bene Gesserit leapt into action. They saw this opportunity and they grabbed it. They subtly goaded Duke Leon Atreides into an anime revenge arc.

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abip]

So essentially, they implied to Leon that the Harkonnens were responsible for the death of this Atreides officer on Planet Somoza. And so Leon is like, I gotta leap into action.

[Leo]

Yeah. And to be clear, no one knows why the officer died. Like, the officer was just on this planet. Maybe got mugged by some random people, died. Just happenstance.

[Abip]

So Duke Leon leaps into action. He's like, okay, I'm gonna take care of this. He tracks down the alleged murderer. He seizes not only the murderer, but, but, quote, all available members of his family, end quote. And then. You simply will not believe the words that will come out of my mouth next, folks. And then Duke Leon has the alleged murderer and every member of his family available.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Dissected into small pieces.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

And then those pieces arranged into, quote, a mosaic of the House Atreides bore upon a floor of the home of the unfortunate family. End quote.

[Leo]

What the fuck? Yeah. Leon Atreides is not known for half measures. This is not a subtle, subtle riposte.

[Abip]

Oh, my goodness.

[Leo]

I think there is mention that he's like, a particularly bloody and cruel example of the House Atreides violence. But this is such a crazy move.

[Abip]

And if he wasn't before, he is after this.

[Leo]

He is now. I mean, listen, at that point, if you walk like a maniac, talk like a maniac, and smell like a maniac, you might be a maniac.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Baron Victor Harkonnen, by the way, is like, what the fuck? Whoa. That's insane. And actually was like, this man is crazy.

[Abip]

Uh huh. Uh huh.

[Leo]

That's not justice. That's like the act of a murderous, insane duke. I should probably do everyone a favor and have Duke Leon killed because he's probably gonna come for everyone. He's probably gonna kill everybody. This guy's fucking insane. So he subtly, stealthily had Duke Leon poisoned. Whoa. So he succeeded in having killed the House of Head Atreides, and he left no evidence. Good job, Victor.

[Abip]

Nicely done.

[Leo]

Good Lord.

[Abip]

Clean.

[Leo]

Yeah. That's an S. Rank kill in Assassin's Creed, I think. I can't remember if there's rankings, but nevertheless, Victor was like, hey, no evidence left. No witnesses. Everything's good. I'm going to just, you know, dust off my hands. Matter settled. We're good. Then the fucking Benny Jesuit come in. Here we go. So who took over for Leon? It's the new duke, Alexander Atreides. And basically, the Bene Gesserit were like, alex. Hey, Alex, guess who fucking killed Leon Atreides. Victor Harkonnen. He did it.

[Abip]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Are you gonna let him get away with this? And Alexander was like, no, I'm not gonna let that slide now, Alexander, I think this is like such an aura farming move, I think this is so fucking cool. I don't know.

[Abip]

This is insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is. This was crazy. My eyes were popping at this sentence.

[Leo]

So Alexander, not as bloody or kind of vicious and dramatic, right? Leon Atreides went to drama school, pockets full of glitter. Alexander, much more subtle, to the point he. Here's how he handled the feud himself. Quote, alexander casually walked into the Harkonnen palace on the planet Giedi prime and disemboweled the Baron and a boy who was then the Baron's companion, the Duke, then just as casually left the planet without being suspected. End quote.

[Abip]

Holy shit.

[Leo]

So he, like, walks in, Victor's like, hey, Alexander, what's Alexander's like. And done, right, walks out of the palace, gets on his ship, flies off.

[Abip]

Got a little Matcha on the way home.

[Leo]

Got a Matcha on the way home. Matcha and a baguette, you know. But just one. Just one. No meat cutes for Alexander Atreides. No, no, no.

[Abip]

Not today.

[Leo]

So, perfect crime, no witnesses, no one knew who did it. But once again, Bene Gesserit, they slink out of the shadows and they make sure House Harkonnen knew who did that. It was Alexander Atreides. He did this. It was without any cause. You should probably get back at him.

[Abip]

Yep. And we all know where this is going, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

This back and forth continues between House Atreides and House Harkonnen. One kills the other, the other takes revenge. The Bene Gesserit get in there and start whispering their little whispers and ears. And this feud continues as planned for the next couple thousand years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

And records indicate this entry says that. The records indicate over 450 core members of each family had died during this feud. Yeah, and that number Indicates is not counting the over 50,000 followers of each House that were collateral damage in this feud.

[Leo]

Crazy. Yeah.

[Abip]

So when we say bloody feud, we're talking over 50,000 deaths.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

Insane, insane stuff. That's a huge human toll. But again, thinking like a Benny Jesuit, if we kind of set the big, scary number of dead bodies aside for a second. The plan is going swimmingly.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's working.

[Abip]

Over 2,000 years, the leaders of each respective House did become more cunning and more capable and more effective because that is what was necessary to survive this bloody feud.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abip]

Natural selection was kicking in just as the Bene Gesserit wanted it to. And so by the time we hit the year 10176ag.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

None other than Reverend Mother Gaeus Helen Moham herself.

[Leo]

Guys, Helen Gyus.

[Abip]

Helen reported that Jessica's pregnancy was one of the final stages of the Kwisatz Haderach plan.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

And it was go time. This Atreides daughter that Jessica was planned to have would possess the military efficiency and cautious intelligence that they had cultivated in House Atreides for thousands of years.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abip]

And meanwhile, over on the Harkonnen side, Feyd Rautha, quote, exemplified the sly Harkonnen cunning but did not fear direct physical action when called for. End quote. Those Harkonnen qualities that they have cultivated for thousands of years the perfect ingredients were finally ready. We just gotta toss them in the soup.

[Leo]

What a delicious soup that's gonna be. And that's where basically the entry ends now, that's basically caught us up to the years leading up to the first book. Now, the entry notes that Jessica definitely messed up the plan, of course but in a sense, the Bene Gesserit math did check out right. We're talking a plan that had gone thousands of years and effectively, quote, the feud between House Atreides and the Harkonnen did produce the single individual within whom the bloody soldier and the polished diplomat dwelled. The Lady Jessica's own Harkonnen blood saw to that. End quote. So maybe it was like a rounding error. They were a generation off. Or again, again, maybe the target they were aiming for. Maybe. I get the impression there was a margin of error.

[Abip]

I think so, too. Yeah.

[Leo]

But still managed to give birth to this person who embodied those qualities. And, of course, we know Paul following the first book does unleash a bloody jihad that seems, you know, within line a little bit with some of this new Atreides history we've learned in this speculative piece of unpublished literature that's Right.

[Abip]

That's right. So there it is, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

That is an entry, an unpublished entry of the Dune Encyclopedia that we uncovered in the Fullerton archives. This origin of the Atreides and Harkonnen feud. As we wrap up today, though, I think it is worth pausing to sort of reflect. Yeah, as we said, this is just a thought experiment. So what if. Non canon entry. But I think it's still worth a discussion to kind of debrief on our feelings on it. And. Yeah, if we think this sort of entry could have been published. Should have been published, and what it could have added to the wider Dune canon in a hypothetical world where this did exist in the encyclopedia and was published.

[Leo]

Yeah. And this is one of those instances, not. I wouldn't say rare, but uncommon, where we fell on very different sides of the fence, I think.

[Abip]

Yeah. Yeah, we did.

[Leo]

So I would say let's start. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this entry and. And then I'll share mine. And I think people will get the clear sense of where you and I fall. Yeah.

[Abip]

Which side of the things we ended up on.

[Leo]

It might not be a game of discernment. You might pretty quickly figure it out.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So. So what do you think?

[Abip]

So here's the thing. I have to call a spade a spade here, at least as far as my feelings are concerned. I thought this entry sucked.

[Leo]

I thought it was horrible.

[Abip]

Honestly, I'm glad that no version of this ever made it to publication or into the final Dune Encyclopedia in any way. And you know what? I'm going to attribute that to perhaps McNelly's strong editorial instincts here on choosing to cut this one. For whatever reason. We don't know what reason, but we know it was never published. And for that I am thankful. I tried to sort of break down my primary criticisms of this entry and maybe why I so vehemently disliked it. So I'll break some thoughts down here and drill down into them further. I think, for example, one of the biggest things that kind of bothers me about this entry in particular is that I didn't really care how the Atreides and Harkonnen feud started. I didn't need to know the origin of that. And this entry sort of serves as maybe a prime example of why sometimes it's important to just leave a thing a mystery and not feel the need to fill in every gap of history in the universe, particularly around main events and main characters. It is fun to leave a lot of gaps open, as Frank Herbert did in his own Primary canon, sure. And I think inherently sort of looking at it not even from a narrative or world building perspective, but looking at it from just a thematic perspective. Feuds are dumb, right? Like most stories about feuds, the moral of the story is this is stupid. Why are we feuding?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abip]

And most people, especially generations down the line, and as we know, the Atreides and Harkonnen have been feuding for thousands of years. Who even fucking remembers how this started? We're just feuding because we're feuding because that's what we were told we do. And thematically speaking, that's kind of the whole point. Like, the whole point of feuds is the pointlessness of feuds. And so I think trying to paint in the picture of how this all started actually kind of like takes the air out of the feud. You know, it kind of deflates the room because you're kind of like, oh, this kind of started for a dumbass reason, so why do I care anymore that they are fighting? So I think in particular, I was like, this is one part of the world building that never actually needed an answer anyway. And it doesn't enhance my understanding of the primary stories that Frank wrote, like so many of the Dune encyclopedia articles do, the ones that were published. Criticism number two. I am just not a fan in any Dune story, whether it's canon, non canon, fan fiction, whatever it may be. I'm not a fan of always pointing towards the Bene Gesserit as the reason for things to happen.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abip]

And I thought that the Bene Gesserit playing tattletale back and for forth for like 2000 years between these families was just like a very lame and lazy way for them to be involved in all of this. The Bene Gesserit, as we have talked about so many times, are a sophisticated group of women. And for them to just be like, hey, guess who killed you? It was the Harkonnens again. Doing that for 2,000 years just feels like sort of unbelievable and lazy to me. Like, there would be so many other factors and more interesting ways for them to instigate violence than just kind of tattletale constantly. So I found that really kind of a lame reason for them to be involved in all this. And ultimately I was kind of like, I kind of wish the feud had nothing to do with Bene Gesserit or the Kwisatz Haderach program. Feuds just happen. We live in the Imperium. It's bloodthirsty. There's politics, there's commerce, there's Hundreds of factors that could cause things to happen in the universe. I find it incredibly boring for the Bene Gesserit to always be Forrest Gumping it and to show up at every critical junction in human history and to make them the reason that things happen all the time, I think that's lazy storytelling. Things happen for a lot of reasons. And the Bene Gesserit are just smart enough to take an opportunity when it shows up and to maybe nudge something in a certain direction. But that doesn't mean it's always going to go that way. Yeah, Last thought I'll share here before I want to hear from you and we get sort of the other side of the fence.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abip]

I thought it was sort of trite and lame that the whole gist of this entry essentially was, hey, you know the heroes of that story you love, the Atreides, the good guys in Dune, well, they were actually fucking awful. Isn't that crazy? And I was like, no, that's not crazy, that's dumb. That's like some 14 year old's take of, like, a plot twist. I thought that was, like, really amateurish to be like, well, they were also crazy and bad and the archonids were crazy and bad. Isn't this all crazy? Making everyone just awful makes it so that there's no one to root for. And like, the through line of this entry is like, why do I care about any of these people? I think what makes for me the Kwisatz Haderach so interesting as a concept in the Dune stories is that this, like, mythical, magical being that the Bene Gesserit are aiming for does embody and is the balance between dark and light, is the balance between the Atreides, goodness and loyalty that we see on display and the harkening cruelty and bloodlust that we see from Feyd Rautha and the Baron. And there's again, some interesting thematic ideas there about how we all sort of balance light and dark within us and that to be fully human is to contain both good and evil. And this entry just like, takes all that away from the Kwisatz Hatreck program. So, you know, again, ultimately, like, when I look at a Dune encyclopedia entry, I walk away going, did this enhance the original telling by Frank Herbert? Did I go back because of this backstory I got about Gurney Halleck? Did I go back to the lines from Gurney Halleck in the book Dune and have a new appreciation for them and new depth? If the answer is yes, I think the encyclopedia entry has succeeded here for me. Again, speaking just for myself, the answer is no. I think this entry, had it been published, would have actually sort of taken away from both House Atreides and House Harkonnen. And it would have taken away from the story, it would have shrunk the story, in my opinion. It would have made it all a Bene Gesserit plot, which ultimately I find boring. You know, there are other reasons for things to happen. So those are sort of my very harsh criticisms. Ultimately, I think this was a fun what if. And I love me and Aura farming Alexander Atreides. That's just such an amazing image. Something about Alexander Atreides walking in to the Harkonnen palace and disemboweling the Baron just makes me think of JoJo's bizarre adventure, the anime. It feels like a scene out of that anime.

[Leo]

My God, he's a stand user.

[Abip]

Exactly, he's a stand user. Holy shit. So those are my sort of pretentious and annoying criticisms, thinking too critically about this entry. But ultimately I walked away feeling glad that this wasn't published. But I know you felt totally different and I think it's actually really interesting to hear your side of it too.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

So I want to hand the mic to you. What did you think?

[Leo]

Sure. Yeah. It's so funny because I like finished reading the article and I was like, oh, this is fun.

[Abip]

So cool.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think feet to the flames to kind of like actually temper down a little bit of what I liked about this article. I think it is interesting. We meet House Atreides and it seems like they're so spotless and so honorable and so good. And then there are these moments where people talk about the old Duke and they go, oh yeah, he was a. He was a complicated guy.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And like Jessica talks about how she was really glad that Duke Leto wasn't like his father. And that idea of like Duke Leto is kind of an anomaly in that he is an honorable good man. And even he is using propagandists and even he is using some underhanded techniques to be the influential person he is. So I liked the idea that the long 10,000 year history of House Atreides involves just as much bloody backstabbing as the other families of the Imperium. And perhaps what we are seeing is the byproduct of family curated histories.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Who is House Atreides? Well, we've always been the fucking good guys. Are you kidding me? Look at Duke Leto. He's great. The old Duke was kind of a bastard. But through for how it Worked for him and liked him and everything. I like the idea that everyone in House Atreides is like, we are obviously the good guys. Look at us. And that is a byproduct of this kind of selective storytelling and that this entry, be it discovered in Dara Spilot or some later date by a third party who's just giving you the facts, you go, wow, everyone kind of had some shitty people in their bloodlines. Yep. I liked that. And I like the idea of seeing Duke Leto as particularly an outsider and an unusually upstanding good guy. And I would then be interested to kind of revisit those tales of the old Duke. So I enjoyed it for that reason. And hearing your criticisms, what I'll do now is I'll just kind of say why they didn't necessarily bother me. Right.

[Abip]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo]

So to start the idea of, like, we don't really need to know why the feud started, it didn't bother me because a lot of the times when we're reading Dune Encyclopedia entries, we are almost by design, hearing about things that we don't need to know. The entire Dune Encyclopedia is a we didn't need to know. And in some cases, it does absolutely inform new and interesting interpretations of prime canon, but other times, it's just kind of fun. Hey, there was a gap here, and we decided to write something into it that wouldn't necessarily, like, step on too many toes.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

And while I don't think that feuds need to have some kind of grandstanding purpose, and I completely agree that, that people, characters who are in feud. I've never been in a familial feud myself, but.

[Abip]

I know you haven't. Should we start one?

[Leo]

I haven't. No, no, no.

[Abip]

Should we, like, get it going?

[Leo]

We should. We should get it going with all of our patrons. I think you're right that, like, people within feuds would probably be like, yeah, why did it start? Who the fuck cares? Fuck Harkonnens. Like, we hate them. They suck. But I also think that in Universe, there should be an explanation. And if there isn't at all, even in, like, an encyclopedia where the people writing these entries in Universe are historians looking at two of the most influential families that ever were, of course they're going to dig down and try to find answers, and that would kind of justify this being an entry in the

[Abip]

first place from a historical perspective.

[Leo]

Yeah. In Universe historians, of course they're going to look at House Atreides and why Baron Harkonnen laid this trap for the Duke.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think that that justifies this entry being written in the first place, kind of regardless of how it was handled. Now, the next point. Bene Gesserit playing tattletale back and forth. The further we've gotten into the books, I really think Frank crafted a universe that was crafted by the Bene Gesserit and from the other Dune encyclopedia entries, but also from Frank's own canon. They're kind of involved in everything. And as soon as we learn, basically, that House Atreides is part of the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program that's been happening for 10,000 years, I would be very skeptical of them not being involved in just about every element of House Atreides history. And I think you're right, that, like, feuds are often hollow and kind of empty. And I think that's also why. I don't know, I get the impression, again, no personal experience with family feuds, but I get the impression that they don't really escalate, barring some crazy thing happening. So the idea of the feud not only sustaining for thousands of years, but actually escalating over thousands of years, the explanation that the Bene Gesserit were a part of how that feud continued makes sense to me and kind of falls in line with some of the other stuff that Frank's been writing.

[Abip]

Yeah. And for what it's worth, I think that criticism, for me about the Bene Gesserit being behind everything.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

That actually applies to Frank as well. You know, like, I'm not saying that's just an entry problem.

[Leo]

Yeah, fair.

[Abip]

We're currently working our way through Chapter House on the Book Club. And that's been a thought that's been nagging at me where I'm just like, man, we're really sort of, like, retconning a lot of things so that the Bene Gesserit have been doing this all along. And that just feels lazy, you know, That's a criticism I would lob literally at Frank himself as well, and the latter books in the series, because I agree with you, Frank does begin to lean deeply into, like, the Bene Gesserit were doing it all along, actually, for the whole time. And plot twist, it was them. So it's not just an entry problem with this particular unpublished entry.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I think to kind of support what you're saying as well. I don't know that I would call it lazy, but I do think that it 100% shrinks the universe.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The shrinkage is where there are no mysteries, and it's just the answer is always the Bene Gesserit. Now, I don't even know that Frank necessarily retconned anything. Maybe he intended from the very get go to write this story about the Bene Gesserit who are kind of behind everything from the very first book. Who knows?

[Abip]

Yeah, true.

[Leo]

But I think that that is a smaller universe than you or I want. We want a universe that's bigger, with more mystery, for sure. And I think the authors of the Dune Encyclopedia, then I don't fault them for following in his footsteps, but it does make for a smaller, more narrow universe, which is just not fun. It's not as fun.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

And then kind of the final point I wanted to push back on gently is just the idea of this, like, good and bad and light and dark. I think what makes characters interesting is when we see in them the light and the dark that we all have within ourselves these dark impulses, these light impulses. And I think what Frank did really beautifully is he wrote this universe of moral grays. Very few characters are above any reproach and very few characters are without any redeeming qualities. And one of the things that I really got from our early episodes about House Harkonnen and Baron Harkonnen and Duke Leto were these qualities of theirs that counterposed against the obvious read of Baron Harkonnen, ultimately evil. What a caricature of a bad guy. And ew, he's icky, you know?

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then you say, but he's following the rule book and he's doing what he thinks Shaddam wants him to do. And he's. There's something about this guy who is a polished politician who is also like a bloody murderer and whatever.

[Abip]

Right.

[Leo]

That is an interesting dimension to Baron Harkonnen.

[Abip]

Totally agree. Yeah.

[Leo]

And the. On the other side, Duke Leto is leaning on propagandists and making sure everyone sings his high praises because he knows that's what he has to do. And understanding that House Atreides is not all about its goodness, that it is just as, you know, kind of morally gray as everyone else, all of that feels very in line with this marred universe of messy people. And I think also falls in line with Frank's very strong convictions about the better someone looks and the more kind of good they seem, the more skeptical you should be of them. And I think that this entry in some ways carries that tradition forward. Right. We get these fucking monstrous examples of House Atreides being awful, but we also get the Digimon Atreides after this war, treating his people incredibly fairly. Yeah. And being really good to his people. And so I see this as a continued demonstration of. We already know House Atreides is great. They are a little bit more gray than you expected.

[Abip]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And, you know, it didn't bother me for that reason, because I was kind of going, yeah, this is the moral gray universe that I know and love. And for what it's worth, I love the idea of the Cuisatz Haderach in regards to what does it mean to see the future and what does that mean for Agency, and what does that even role represent for the Bene Gesserit? The idea of the sort of balancing of forces. Even where Frank was talking about the balancing of masculine and feminine, I'm like, eh, okay. I mean, that's fine. You know, I'm kind of more interested in the.

[Abip]

Yeah. His role as the Oracle more than his role as, like, the ultimate combination of. Yeah.

[Leo]

And, like, good and evil. And, like, I get so exhausted when a book is like. And then there was Malkaroth. He's evil. And I'm like, okay, does he. What does he want? And he's like, to be evil. I'm like, yeah, okay. What a missed opportunity to like, make me give a shit about. About what they. You know.

[Abip]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

Huh.

[Abip]

So the entire fantasy genre seemingly does not work for you.

[Leo]

A lot of it. Yeah. To be fair, a lot of it. I mean, I think that's where, like, Adventure Time is really cool, because one of the biggest villains in Adventure Time is this primordial force of chaos that, like, just is a thing. And you can fight him and resist him and that's fine. But. But it's like fighting and resisting a hurricane. The hurricane isn't evil. It's just a force of nature. I think those sorts of things can be very cool. So, anyway, I like the moral grays, and basically, anytime something's made more gray, the more I like it. So.

[Abip]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

I enjoyed the article. And I think, regardless, it's fun to see these pieces of the Dune Encyclopedia that didn't make the cut.

[Abip]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, the fascinating part of all of this is speculating why this was cut. You know, I wish we could get inside McNelly's head as he read this draft for the first time. Right. And went, okay, this could work. This definitely doesn't work. This needs edits. It would be so fascinating to kind of get a peek into his mind.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abip]

And, you know, there are the occasional letters that we've dug up yeah. In the Fullerton archives between McNelly and the collaborators of the Dune Encyclopedia. So even beyond the entries that were never published, it might be interesting to collect some letters and kind of get a sense of how the encyclopedia was built. You know, what was the thought process behind it, what were some of the considerations that McNelly was in conversation with, with his collaborators on what should be in it, what could be in it, what needs to be corrected, that sort of thing. So lots to still unpack from the Fullerton archives and dig through. And we will continue sharing them as we do.

[Leo]

Indeed we will. Oh, that's such a good idea for an episode. I'm already thinking about, like, oh, there's so many little things we can pull. Yeah. Okay. Well, dear listeners, that's where we're going to end today's episode. But before we let you go, we do want to remind you of some ways to support us and what we do here at Gom Jabbar. And of course, the two best ways are to become a [e-mail] gomjabbar and to get yourself some dune themed swag at gomjabbar shop. I'm hard at work on some new stuff, so check out those links in the show notes below.

[Abip]

Please do.

[Leo]

It's exciting.

[Abip]

And of course, we love to hear from you. So email us combar podcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us your own headcanon on the Atreides Harkonnen feud and other parts of the Dune lore. Of course, make sure you pay that pet tax. If you have a cute little family member in your family, share a picture of them. We love to see your little critters.

[Leo]

Yeah. Also tell us if you're in a family feud, do you have any family feuds out there? Do we have listeners who have like, like generational long beefs?

[Abip]

If you're, if you're a Family Feud expert, hit us up.

[Leo]

Not the TV show. People like. Yeah, I've watched every one of Steve Harvey's show. It's like, anyway, tell us about your family feuds out there. Again, not the TV show. Tell us. Yeah, generational long beefs. We want to know about it.

[Abip]

Spill the tea.

[Leo]

Spill the tea directly into our inbox. Come to our podcast. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram loreparty. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path.