Mailbag: Chani in Part Three, Dune Theme Park, and Is There Email in Dune?

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast | Mailbag: Chani in Part Three, Dune Theme Park, and Is There Email in Dune? Release Date: May 15, 2026 Hosted by: Abu and Leo (Lore Party Media)

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Episode Overview

In this mailbag episode, hosts Abu and Leo answer listener-submitted questions spanning deep Dune lore, Chapterhouse Dune analysis, speculation on future adaptations, and even whimsical hypotheticals like a Dune theme park and interplanetary Dune email. The conversation moves from Chapterhouse-specific insights to broader Dune universe speculation, sprinkled with trademark Gom Jabbar humor and live chat interactions from YouTube patrons.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scattering, Honored Matres, and Leto's Golden Path (04:16–16:16)

• Listener Question ([04:16]): Is the Scattering and the Honored Matres a mistake by Leto II or a necessary evil to challenge the Bene Gesserit and continue the Golden Path?
• Hosts’ Response:
  • Leo: Firmly states the Scattering was always Leto II’s intention:
    "The Scattering was the entire point of Leto's peace… So, no uncertain terms. Scattering. 100% intentional. That's the whole point." ([06:23])
  • Abu: Differentiates narrative and thematic perspectives:
    • Narratively, the Golden Path ends with Leto II’s death; humanity must now fend for itself.
    • Thematically, the Golden Path represents Herbert’s ongoing philosophy:
      "There isn't an end point. ... The Golden Path is just a goal, an ideal that we must always strive for in order to avoid stagnation and extinction." ([11:16])
  • Leo: Highlights the unresolved nature of the Golden Path and its mystery post-Leto:
    "We're not sure what's out there and we're not sure why people are running back … Are we sure the Golden Path is secure, or does it need more work?" ([14:54])

Noteworthy Live Chat Quotes

• "The Golden Path is like a dune. The general shape is clear, the ripples are the fine print." — shirejonik ([13:49])
• "At this point ... the effectiveness of the scattering ... is being called into question.” — smartshmello ([13:49])

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2. Bene Gesserit Scattering Cells and Institutional Integrity (16:16–24:46)

• Listener Question: What happens to Bene Gesserit cells sent into the Scattering? Why does Duncan consider this a futile strategy?
• Abu: Points out the erosion of dogma and institutional integrity as sisters leave the central organization:
  "Time and distance, away from that core, away from that center, will inevitably erode the original shape of the institution." ([18:49])
  • Acting independently, these cells can evolve into entities totally different from the original Bene Gesserit—and potentially into new threats (Honored Matres, or even something worse).
• Leo: Emphasizes Herbert’s critique of organized religion and how institutions fracture when remote from their center.
• Duncan’s Double Meaning Quote ([21:20]):
  "You're seeding the universe with enemies. You're feeding Honored Matres."
• Humor: Speculates about even wilder offshoots emerging ("What if they turn into Disney adults out there? ... Nothing worse," jokes Abu and Leo, [24:48])

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3. Fan Theory: Quetag as Ancestor to Miles Teg (25:28–29:18)

• Listener Email (Christina Cullis): Is Quetag a significant ancestor, with the name evolving similarly to how Odrade comes from Atreides?
• Leo: Enthusiastic endorsement: "Could not find any hard contradictory evidence. ... Quetag was the fastest of the non-Sionas, right? ... Those Quetag genes." ([27:15])
• Both hosts appreciate fun, semi-canon interpretations, likening it to evolving names in the real world.

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4. Dune Part Three Adaptation: Chani and Faithful Adaptations (30:38–39:15)

• Patron Pullman's Question: How would you handle Chani's divergence in Denis Villeneuve's Dune Part Three, especially her stronger disapproval of Paul’s actions?
• Abu:
  • Supports Villeneuve’s creative decisions, believing changes deepened Chani’s character.
  • Argues “meat on the bones” will be needed for Messiah, since the book is short and introspective.
  • "I trust Denis Villeneuve ... We will fall back in line with Messiah’s overall story arc." ([33:42])
• Leo:
  • Largely concurs and notes Villeneuve’s demonstrated ability to write strong female characters (cites Arrival).
  • Expresses only mild concern about runtime allocation.
• Future Content: Plans to reread and discuss Messiah pre-movie release ([38:42])
  • "I've been pitching you on doing an audio drama of Messiah. … I'll find any excuse to go back to Dune Messiah." — Abu, lightheartedly ([39:00])

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5. Why Are the Great Houses So Small? Succession and Structure (39:15–51:52)

• Patron “not a robot. AI”’s Question: Why are great houses, e.g. House Atreides, so small and easily ‘destroyed’? Wouldn’t there be extensive extended family and cadet branches after millennia?
• Leo:
  • Acknowledges the logic but points to authorial focus:
    "Oftentimes authors, and I think Frank is in this camp … just have you suspend disbelief ... it's about focusing on the top 1% of the top 1%." ([41:01])
  • Comparisons to Game of Thrones and the lack of details on feudal succession outside dedicated focus.
• Abu: Shares from the Dune Encyclopedia about hereditary and sometimes elected titles, but political power centralized:
  "If you cut off the head, you're ending the house itself." ([45:19])
• Leo: Points out that power structure is tightly controlled both legally and by Bene Gesserit influence; complexity is intentionally minimized to avoid uncontrollable power shifts ([50:12]).

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6. Interplanetary Communication: Is There Email in Dune? (51:52–61:00)

• Patron mickrac’s Question: How do people communicate between planets? Is there “email” or just human messengers?
• Abu:
  • Instantaneous interstellar communication does exist (thanks to Holtzman tech), but Frank doesn’t focus on it due to the era’s technology and narrative priorities ([54:43]).
  • Modern-style “texting” is plausible, especially by the time of Heretics and Chapterhouse ([55:59]).
• Leo:
  • Notes advancement doesn’t require thinking machines; analog systems with 40k years of progress could fill in.
  • Powerful characters would still favor in-person, encrypted, or messenger-based channels for secrecy:
    "People in power default to slower, more secure forms of communication because it's safer." ([60:51])
• Humor: Imagines Dune-style sexting via D-strands messengers and “the true heroes of Dune, the dick pic messengers” ([53:10]).

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7. Dune Theme Park Dream Attractions (62:20–77:14)

• Patron Matthias’ Question: What would your ideal Dune theme park attraction(s) be?
• Abu: Proposes a build-your-own-crysknife immersive ritual ("akin to the lightsaber building that you get to do at Disney" [62:58]).
• Leo (detailed, imaginative response):
  • Split into two categories:
    • County Fair/Pop-up Style:
      • God Emperor Fortune Teller (animatronic Leto II with sassy predictions)
      • Gaius Helen Truth-Sayer Machine (heart rate-tracking polygraph)
      • Hunter-Seeker Carnival Game (target practice)
      • Duncan Idaho Rock Claw wall (climbing challenge culminating in a Nayla “orgasm” button)
    • Big-Budget Attractions:
      • Shai-Hulud Roller Coaster (upright “worm-riding” harnesses, spice “blows,” hallucinogenic effects) ([69:56])
      • Ornithopter Escape Simulator (interactive ride)
      • Park shuttles driven by castmembers in universe (including possible Claireby and Atreides cameos)
      • Cirque du Soleil–inspired Tleilaxu Face Dancer show
      • Themed food and drink (e.g., “slig sausages,” Water of Life blue vodka slushies) ([75:13])
  • Live chat suggestions included sand-dancer exhaustion shows, a Sietch Tabr excavation attraction, Dar-es-Balat escape room, and Dune tarot cards at the gift shop.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Golden Path:
  "The Golden Path is like a dune. The general shape is clear, the ripples are the fine print." — shirejonik ([13:49])
• On splintered Bene Gesserit:
  "Imagine someone even worse [than Honored Matres]. ... What if they turn into Disney adults out there?" — Abu/Leo ([24:48])
• On adaptation trust:
  "I trust Denis Villeneuve ... We will fall back in line with Messiah’s overall story arc." — Abu ([33:42])
• On Dune theme park ideas:
  "You get your slig sausages on a stick … Water of Life blue slushy, like vodka, tequila. Avoid the tyrant’s flipper." — Leo ([75:13])

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Timestamps to Important Segments

• Leto's Scattering & Golden Path: 04:16–16:16
• Bene Gesserit Cells & Institutional Drift: 16:16–24:46
• Miles Teg/Quetag Fan Theory: 25:28–29:18
• Dune: Part 3, Chani Debate: 30:38–39:15
• Great Houses’ Size & Succession: 39:15–51:52
• Is There Email in Dune?: 51:52–61:00
• Dune Theme Park Discussion: 62:20–77:14

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Tone & Originality

The conversation alternates between deep lore dives, meta-textual analysis, speculation, practical world-building speculation, and irreverent, playful banter. The hosts’ passion for Dune and for active audience engagement shines throughout.

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In Summary

This ambitious mailbag episode demonstrates the broad appeal and depth of the Dune universe as explored by the Gom Jabbar team. From the ethics of Leto II’s cosmic manipulations to the nuts-and-bolts of noble succession, modern adaptation anxieties, and even the silliest hypotheticals, Abu and Leo deliver equal parts insight and entertainment for Dune veterans and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Leo]

Today on the show. Oh, the Touj Dortujela just burst into our offices. She's not looking great. Carrying your messages, dear listeners, that she snuck off of Junction.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

She was in the Spider Queen's lair. She got those great messages that you sent us.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Snuck them to us in a no ship overnight. Amazing.

[Abu]

Incredible. She risked life and limb.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And we are going to do the same trying to answer all of your questions. So buckle up for this mailbag episode.

[Leo]

Buckle up.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name's Leo.

[Abu]

And folks, welcome to our second Chapter House Dune book club mailbag. We like to sprinkle in these mailbag episodes during our read throughs of Frank Herbert stories. Just to pause and take a beat and answer any questions that may have arisen in all of our deep diving book club read alonging that we've been doing for many episodes now. So that's exactly what we're going to do today.

[Leo]

Indeed. Now, before we get into it, let's take care of our housekeeping. Make sure shoutoutmapes is proud and happy with us. As usual, today's episode will contain no spoilers up through the pages we've covered thus far in the book club. So if you are caught up with our current book club episodes, you are safe to listen today and happy listening.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, up top, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz had rack level patrons, Daniel Dion, Seth Reddin Greer, Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohanaram and Roger Young.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abu]

In the last episode, I believe we conscripted all of you and sent you off to the front lines of Junction in our war against the honored matres.

[Leo]

We did? Yeah.

[Abu]

If you're doing all right, send us a note.

[Leo]

How's that going?

[Abu]

Okay, housekeeping out of the way. Here's the game plan for today's mailbag episode, folks. It's in the title. You submitted questions, observations, thoughts, random musings, rants, and today we are going to be sharing some of your messages and responding to some of your questions. In today's mailbag universe, the focus at the top of the episode will be specifically on chapter House Dune, as this is a Chapter House Dune mailbag episode. But then after the ad break, we're going to expand our scope and talk about topics across the entire Dune universe before we wrap it up today with a fun off topic question at the end.

[Leo]

But before we do any of that, we're going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. When we are back, we're getting into your questions about Chapter House Dune.

[Abu]

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[Leo]

What they did to your family.

[Abu]

You're lucky to make it out alive.

[Leo]

Streaming on Peacock.

[Abu]

These men are going to come after me. Taking them out.

[Leo]

It's my only chance. Put a bullet from the co creator of Ozark.

[Abu]

Looks like a family was running drugs execution style. Killing. It's rare for the Keys.

[Leo]

Any leads on who they might have been running for?

[Abu]

The cartel killed my family. I'm gonna kill them. All of them.

[Leo]

MIA Streaming now only on Peacock.

[Abu]

Welcome back folks. Let's start with this question today. Yeah, this one I found on Reddit by a user named awesome Vader, which is a great name. Awesome Vader posted on Reddit and asked, quote, is the Scattering and the honored Matres supposed to be a mistake by Leto or some necessary evil that will challenge the Bene Gesserit to improve, furthering down the golden path? End quote.

[Leo]

You know, awesome Vader, I think you've lived up to your name. Awesome question. Awesome Vader.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

It's an excellent question, I'm sure. Also, a lot of the characters that we are riding alongside with are asking themselves the same question.

[Abu]

Oh yeah.

[Leo]

Page after page they're going, yeah, Are we still dancing to the God Emperor's tune? Is this something he foresaw with all of the billions of lives lost? Or are we like well past the reach of his little flipper legs, you know, are we beyond what he perceived? And I mean, honestly, there's a huge ethical moral discussion to be had within that. But it is first important to just rule out the possibility totally that the scattering was a mistake of some sort. The Scattering was the entire point of Leto's peace. Again, as a reminder from God Emperor of Dune, there's this epigraph where it starts off right, Leto is promising the Golden Path will give humanity a lesson their bones will remember. How will it do that, I give them enduring eons of enforced tranquility, which plods on and on, despite their every effort to escape into chaos. Believe me, the memory of Leto's peace shall abide with them forever. They will seek their quiet security thereafter only with extreme caution and steadfast preparation. End quote. So, no uncertain terms. Scattering. 100% intentional. That's the whole point.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And some of the chaos that we are seeing, the fucking Futars and Honored Matre and the Sentinel sentient tree houses and all that shit, that's part of the plan. That chaos, that unknown horizon, that's all part of the plan. And all of this is because a desperate conservative clinging to what you're familiar with, well, that's called stagnation. And that's a way toward extinct, right?

[Abu]

Exactly. Exactly. The famine times, the scattering, that was all very much intentional. By later, to the God Emperor.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Where things get a bit fuzzier is whether or not the Golden Path still needs more pruning, more work. Do we need to continue laying track in order for the Golden Path train to keep going? Or did it end with Leto to death and the explosion of humanity across the galaxy?

[Leo]

I think also, like, when I see people answer this question or talk about this, there is a sort of inclination to look toward the unwritten seventh book as, like, a source of some answers, or at least proof that we don't have enough to speculate now. And I say all of this because, again, when we were going through the hundreds and hundreds of documents at the Fullerton Archive, Frank himself said in an interview with the Register, you know, they asked him the question, you planning another book after the book that you're, you know, you're writing now?

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Frank said, quote, I don't know. I don't have a seventh in mind, but there are certainly enough threads in it for it to happen. There always are in a story that follows an evolutionary cycle. End quote.

[Abu]

Okay.

[Leo]

Which was kind of mind blowing because I think in the Dune community, we talk about these. The notes for the seventh book. We talk about Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune. We talk about these, like, the ending of the saga. But the reality is Frank had just mailed Chapterhouse to the publisher and was like, yeah, no book in mind. So rather than think about Chapter House as, like, part one of some unfinished Part two plan, I think we can have this conversation just sharing our personal opinions as Dune fans. What do we think? Based on the evidence that Frank provides up to the end of the sixth book, or at Least up to the chapters that we've covered so far, because we don't want to spoil anything. What do we think? Is Chapter House a necessary final brick in the Golden Path, or has it already been secured and we're just, like, enjoying a little moment on it? What do you think?

[Abu]

I think the answer for me is twofold. I think on a narrative level, from Frank Herbert, the writer, the Golden Path ended with Leto's death. The Golden Path ended at the end of Book four. And that led us into the famine times and the Scattering. That was Leto's intention. We know that throughout his life, throughout his very long life, Leto was careful not to look too far or too much into the future, lest he risk the very thing that Paul tragically learned. That the Oracle can trap humanity in their vision. That by looking too strongly into the future, you lock yourself into that future.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think Leto checked in with the future as needed to make sure that humanity was not going to go extinct anytime soon and that humanity was on a course to set themselves up for success. And then he set off the firecracker and said bye and left.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think it is now up to humanity to learn those lessons that the God Emperor taught them and to preserve itself like any parent. I think Leto did his best for his children, and now he's kind of let them loose in the universe. So I think narratively, the Golden Path, from my interpretation, ends basically with Leto's death. He set out what he's set out to achieve. I think, thematically speaking, from a more meta perspective, the Golden Path is just basically a stand in for Frank Herbert's own views on politics and society and how he thinks we should be running government and maintaining humanity ourselves. And so I think thinking of it from that sense, there is no end to the Golden Path. Like, there isn't an end point where we say, there's the finish line. We've hit it. This is where Leto wanted us to get to. And now we're done. We wipe our hands clean and we relax. Humanity is saved forever. I don't think there is an end point, thematically speaking. I think the Golden Path is just a goal, an ideal that we must always strive for in order to avoid stagnation and extinction in the eyes and beliefs of Frank Herbert, the author.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What do you think, though?

[Leo]

No, I think you're right. Ultimately, it is, as Leto defines it, the survival of humanity and nothing less. And I think that that is exactly what you're saying. Whether or not Leto is adjusting the steering wheel at all his active agency in setting up those dominoes to fall ended with his death. The pearls that we're getting talk of, no evidence so far indicates that they're doing anything. So Leto's gone, and now we're just on this road. And there are so many humans out there in the galaxy. The scattering happened. And by all accounts, the scattering is all of those eggs that were in one basket. One corner of the galaxy are now everywhere. That's it. If the Golden Path is the survival of humanity, there's many, many reasons to think that it is secure. It's done. And now we're looking at the old Imperium. We're looking at the oldest institution in the old Imperium and what lessons it can learn to reconnect with its purpose. But I get a lot of mystery from the scattering, from Frank. He talks a lot, even in God, Emperor of Dune, right? He talks about the hunting seeking machines, the oil, the blood. He talks about these visions of a future that could happen. We hear tale of the Ixians who were making, like, a biomachine that could hunt using prescience. And it's like, what the fuck are you doing? That's a terrible idea. So I do think some of the tone of Chapter House is like, no, there's shit out there that you can't even fathom. And because that tone is in this book, I do feel like, what's happening with Teg, what's happening with Duncan becoming this kind of, like, prime human that we've talked about, My kind of tinfoil hat theory that Leto brought Duncan back over and over again to continue teaching him these lessons, so that one day, if he collapsed into kind of one continuous serial person, that he would be the brick to kind of like, finish the path. But at the end of the day, this all might basically be semantics. It's like, what do we think is and isn't a certain definition? I think either way, if the Bene Gesserit can reconnect with their noble purpose and their kind of reason for being in the first place, whatever uncertainty I personally have about the survival of the human species will be put to rest. And I think that's kind of the point. I think that's the point of this book.

[Abu]

Yeah, we have some great comments in the live chat. We are streaming this recording live on YouTube and we have some listeners with some great comments that I wanted to highlight in regards to this question. So Shirejonik, in the chat put it really eloquently, and I wanted to call this out the Golden Path is like a dune. They write. The general shape is clear, the ripples are the fine print. I think that's a really beautiful way to put it and a really beautiful interpretation of the Golden Path itself. I also think Smarshmello in the chat makes a really interesting observation that's maybe worth chatting about for a second. Smashmellow writes, at this point where we are in Chapter House, the effectiveness of the scattering in the timeline is being called into question. So I think that's interesting is there's this extra layer where many of the characters are asking, did Leto even set us on the right path? Because it seems horrible right now. The honored matre have returned. We're all getting wiped out. If we don't do something, the axe wielder is going to cut the rope and we're all going to fall in the chasm.

[Leo]

Yeah. And again, there is this unknown threat out there. What chased them here? What are the weapons that they're wielding? Why are the Bene Gesserit going out into the scattering, never coming back, never contacting? It does feel like people are just going off and then dying or becoming so disconnected that they may as well no longer be able to be a part of the species. Are Futars human? And what the fuck is going. So I think that that's exactly. That's kind of a well put way of articulating what I feel when I read this book, which is we're not sure what's out there and we're not sure why people are running back to this corner of the galaxy looking to rearm themselves for some great conflict. Are we?

[Abu]

Yo right?

[Leo]

Honor Matre, are you the best?

[Abu]

And also did Leito 2, the God emperor us?

[Leo]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Abu]

Because he's the one that set us on this path. So I. I think that's a very interesting read on the story and I think absolutely correct that we're also sort of questioning the Golden Path itself. What are we doing? Do we need to course correct? Do we continue? Do we ask Leyta for help again? Do we look for signs in the stars? I think there's a lot of doubt and questions here, existentially speaking, for people like Odrade, who bear the responsibility of humanity's future.

[Leo]

Yo, same.

[Abu]

Okay. Big questions, big philosophical questions in this book and very few clear answers, but always fun to talk about. Let's move on to our next question. This one is also sourced from Reddit from a user named Satyaki Zippo. And Zippo writes this in a Reddit post in heretics. And Chapter House. There is a lot of conversation about sending Bene Gesserit cells scattering to ensure survival of the sisterhood from the honored Madre threat. They also mention that Bene Gesserit never hear back from these cells. And Duncan mentions that it is a futile strategy, but they never explained why. What's happening to these cells that they're sending out? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, dude, Duncan's just saying things and not fully explaining himself very often. Yeah, but it's. It's a good question, and it's one that definitely we were wondering ourselves when Duncan very, you know, mysteriously goes, of course that's a failing strategy. And everyone goes, oh, go. And he's like, anyway, here's another topic of conversation. Luckily, this book does give us a lot of context clues and a lot of, again, just thematic conversations about the origins of these people and these kind of the flaws in the Bene Gesserit way of seeing the world enough that we can kind of patch together an answer to this question.

[Abu]

Exactly. So let's put on our mentat caps and connect some dots in order to answer this question, because Duncan didn't provide any answers. It's up to us.

[Leo]

Yeah, true.

[Abu]

It's clear from these latter two books from Heretics and Chapter House that the Bene Gesserit are an organization that run on strict dogma and deeply ingrained training. These are two things that Taraza and Odrade are effectively trying to break free from because they recognize the stagnation in these things. We also learn because we've been given such an inside look at the Bene Gesserit for the first time in this series. In these latter two books, we learned that this dogma and training is continuously enforced by the ever present watchdog system, where all the sisters are both watched and watchers at all times. Now, this is where the issue comes in. Like with all centralized institutions of power, time and distance, away from that core, away from that center, will inevitably erode the original shape of the institution. Right. So bringing this back to the Bene Gesserit cells that were randomly sending out to the far corners of the universe, there is no guarantee that any of the sisters that we send out will continue to think and behave and operate like the sisters at the center, like the sisters here on Chapter House, the ones who are closest to the dogma, to the rituals, to the deeply ingrained training, to. And the ones that are constantly under watchdog surveillance.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Because also, like, Frank himself was raised in this, like, very religious household. He talks about his Jesuit aunts, and he's so clearly skeptical and critical of organized religion. So for me, at least, this very much lands as. Look at what happens when you take individual, even like small groups of individuals away from the institution. They're gone. They're no longer a part of that institution. And you're lying to yourself if you think like, oh, yeah, they're going to be fine and they're going to come back to us and they're going to be totally unchanged. Even the Tleilaxu face dancers, who are like mindless drones of the masters, are now independent, coming back from the. The epitome of like a slave class born and bred to be nothing but manual labor. Manual labor are coming back as agents of change and bartering deals and negotiating and betraying and all sorts. So I think this idea of you remove people partially from the institution, but also other memory, as other memory stands as a representation of institution once you're away from that. Just like any person who went to Catholic school their whole childhood and then went on a sojourn with friends to a Buddhist retreat or whatever, they're like, ah, you know what? Fuck religion. And I think that's kind of. I think that's what Frank would. Just speculating a bit personally. Leo thinks that's what Frank is maybe hinting at a little bit.

[Abu]

Yeah. And I think that's a feeling many reformed Catholic school students can maybe relate to, I think to land this ship and bring it home. To really answer this question, we have a quote from Duncan that I think has some beautiful double meaning. Duncan tells Balanda, quote, you're seeding the universe with enemies. You're feeding Honored Matres. End quote. And the double meaning here, I think, is he means that both literally and and figuratively. So literally, yes. Sending out small pockets of Reverend Mothers certainly puts them at risk of being attacked or captured by Honored Matre forces out there.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And sure, some of the ones who are captured might be tortured, might be subjugated, might even be converted and swayed over to the Honored Matre side.

[Leo]

Showmen have sex and they're like, honestly, that's right. Give me a slice of that pie. That looks great.

[Abu]

That's right. And again, they no longer have watchdogs convincing them to stay on the Bene Gesserit side of the field, so why not? Yes, that's absolutely a risk. So there's a literal risk in sending out small forces of Reverend Mothers out there into the unknown.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But on a figurative level, the other meaning here Duncan is saying that the Sisterhood is also risking creating another kind of Honored Matre out there.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Because we know this far into the book at this point, we know the Honored Matre are some form of, like, corrupted, Twisted Sister Reverend Mother from out in the scattering. Their similarities are too strong for them to not have some sort of shared origin point as sisters. And so Duncan is essentially saying, by sending out pockets of Reverend Mothers into the unknown, completely cut off from any sort of oversight from the sisterhood itself, from the central core, Odrade is creating essentially, what are the perfect conditions for more weird offshoots of future Sisters. Not necessarily Honored Matres, but you're sending out very capable, very powerful women into an unknown universe where unknown crazy things will happen. That's not the way to continue your sisterhood. Right. He's saying if you were trying to preserve the thing here on Chapterhouse, that is. That's not what's happening out there in the far corner of the universe. And that is why it is a futile effort. The thing you're trying to preserve is here in the center. By sending people out to the fringes, you are losing that thing and potentially creating more enemies, more Honored matres. Honor matre 2.0 out there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so I think that is sort of the unspoken reasoning behind Duncan's claim. This Sisterhood scattering is an utterly useless gesture.

[Leo]

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, imagine Shuang Yu being sent out into the Scattering with, like, a little team. She absolutely would splinter.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Are you kidding? She's just a fucking.

[Abu]

Just waiting for the chance.

[Leo]

She'd be basically not even seated with her seatbelt on. On the fucking Highliner or whatever. She'd be on the no ship. And she's like. So I've been thinking. And everyone's like, okay, here we go. Schwang Yu. I think that's exactly right. You know, Smartshmello pointed this out in our chat as well. Case in point, Bene Gesserit coming back as Honored Matres to eliminate the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

There you go.

[Leo]

What a crazy cycle that is. But I think to your point, Apu, and to kind of. Our broader point here is we can't even imagine the sorts of splinter factions that will develop. Of course, Honor Matre is one example. But imagine someone even worse. So I do wonder, maybe that is exactly why Duncan's going. You gotta stop.

[Abu]

It's a gamble.

[Leo]

That's a crazy gamble.

[Abu]

What if they turn into Disney adults out there?

[Leo]

Oh, my God.

[Abu]

In the far reaches of the unknown

[Leo]

universe, nothing Worse, he said very jokingly, I think if you have passions, that's right on. But still. Yeah, rough. They come back, they're like, I want to hug Winnie the Pooh. And he's like, you're six five. Yeah. What do you. Yeah. Where's Winnie the Pooh, right?

[Abu]

Oh, Dre, I got to talk to you about a timeshare opportunity.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Oh, boy.

[Abu]

It's a risky venture.

[Leo]

Timeshares or making friends with people who sell timeshares? Both.

[Abu]

Pick your poison, I guess.

[Leo]

All right, well, great question. Let's move on. Up next, we've got a fun tinfoil hat theory from listener Christina Cullis. Now, Christina writes, I can't remember if we ever learn if Quetag's name is a first or a last name, but it put in mind the possibility of Bashar Miles Teg's name being a bastardization, like Odrade is of Atreides. Both Darwi and Miles are Atreides. But is there any solid evidence that contradicts Quetag being a significant ancestor?

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Especially given how Leto, too, both liked to prune his cousins and encouraged rebellion. End quote. And I want to say, I fucking love this theory. What a great theory.

[Abu]

Yeah, this is very Gamchabari coded from Christina here in this email.

[Leo]

Killing it. And I also love that Christina's not asking for solid evidence of it being true.

[Abu]

No, not at all.

[Leo]

Christina knows could never be that lucky. All we can hope for here at Com. Jafar is that there is no direct contradictory evidence. And I am so excited to tell you, Christina, we could not find any hard contradictory evidence. None that suggests that Quotag isn't some, like, cousin branch of the Atreides line that Leto really fucking liked. Gotta say it. Quotag was the fastest of the non Sionas, right? Like, sure. Of the 11 friends. Abu, what does Teg have?

[Abu]

Super speed.

[Leo]

Super fucking speed. Those Quotag genes is that Qwetek gene. Throw some wolves at him, he'll swing those wolves around. God damn. Oh, I love this theory. It's so much fun.

[Abu]

So fun.

[Leo]

We don't have any evidence that that isn't the case. We also don't have any evidence that Quotag is part of some kind of significant bloodline. But ultimately, Leto was out here cultivating rebels. So we love this. We love this theory. And I'll also toss in, while most of the names we get are obviously important people, right? Atreides, o', Draid, Siona, Shiana. Right? Things like that. Even Caladan to Dan, we see that pattern happen of names being changed or shortened or adjusted over time. And I can't help but think about all of the names in the real world that are the same way. And so I could see basically Frank proposing quietly in the background. We've got these names. We've got these like 3,000 names. And then we just get variations of them for all of time. Because if you look up the number of versions of like John there are in the world, it's insane. So anyway, I love this theory. I'm sold, fully sold. I think, Christina, you're spot on. And if we write a GOM Jabbar Original Dune Encyclopedia like edition, I think that's an entry that needs to happen

[Abu]

is like, we'll cram that in there somewhere. We'll make some sort of genetic connection. And maybe the Corteg line was bred with the Atreides Siona line at some point.

[Leo]

And he's so fast. And Leito was like, he's the fastest of her friend. Let's really lean into that one.

[Abu]

We're not saying this theory holds water, but we're not saying it doesn't either. And that's a great place to be

[Leo]

in, honestly, my favorite place.

[Abu]

All right, well, let's take a break on that really great email from Christina that wraps up our segment on mailbag questions for Chapter House Dune. After the break, folks, we're going to expand our scope and answer some questions about the wider Dune universe that y' all submitted. So stick around. We'll be back in a minute.

[Leo]

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[Leo]

See associate@lowe's.com for details. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's talk now about the wider Dune universe, not just focusing on Chapter House. And let's kick this off from a question from patron Pullman. Pullman writes, quote, do you guys have any hopes or ideas for how they'll Manage Dune Part 3? Regarding Chani, considering how drastically it seems to be diverging from the books by having Chani disapprove of Paul's actions so strongly, would you two prefer that this plot point is tied up quickly so that it would follow the events of Messiah more faithfully, or would you enjoy seeing a new take on Messiah, end quote, and Abu kick us off? Because I know Messiah is your favorite of the Dune books.

[Abu]

Oh, boy, is it.

[Leo]

So I gotta think that this question hits near and dear to your heart.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yes and no. I think I actually have a pretty boring response to this question.

[Leo]

Sweet.

[Abu]

Because I, for one, did not find the tweaks to Chani's character in Dune Part one and Part two as offensive as some folks in the Dune fandom have. In fact, I kind of championed them back when we covered the movie and went in depth with Dr. Kara Kennedy about Johnny's character and all the changes that were made for the film. I kind of championed Denis Villeneuve's vision and I liked how Johnny's character evolved in the films compared to the movie. I think some of them were very positive changes. And so I guess my answer to this question is just, I trust Denis Villeneuve to keep doing that. I think he did a stellar job adapting one of the most notoriously difficult sci fi books ever to adapt. And not only did he give us a deeply faithful adaptation of a story that we all here love so much, but in my opinion, gave us two of maybe the best sci fi films ever in cinema. And so I'm confident and I believe in Denis Villeneuve, that we'll get an incredible adaptation in Dune Messiah as well. And I think, for what it's worth, Messiah is a fairly bare bones book. It is a very short story and a lot of it is spent sort of inside Paul's very mopey, dopey, depressed head. And that doesn't necessarily make for the most riveting of films. So I do think, like, adding some meat onto those bones and adding some original story and interpretation there about Chani and Paul and maybe the conflict that they're left with at the end of Part two and how they reconcile it and come back together and maybe find a deeper Love. I think all of that could actually serve to make the end of Messiah, which we know is deeply tragic, all that more powerful if the start of the film builds back up their love story, only for us to have it crash back down at the end of the when Chani dies in childbirth. Effectively.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

I do think, you know, again, I trust Denis Villeneuve to hew closely to the book. I do not think we're getting some radical departure from the book. I do think ultimately we will fall back in line with Messiah's overall story arc. And, you know, I do think we're gonna get the pregnancy, we're gonna get the sieth Tibur visit, the deaths along the way, the conspiracy. I think Villeneuve will keep that intact and maybe add in some interpretations about Chani and Paul's relationship. I would actually love for him to maybe fill in some of the gaps of that 12 year time jump between Dune Book 1 and Dune Messiah Book 2. We know there's 12 years of Paul Atreides reign. I think that's a lot of room for Denis Villeneuve to play with and flesh out Johnny and Paul's relationship a bit more.

[Leo]

Yeah, I mean, I fully agree with the Trust Denis Villeneuve kind of angle to your answer because he's so good at telling great stories. And I think some of the conflict that I saw within the community around Chani was this idea that the changes around her character were this kind of like half assed attempt to modernize the femininity of the character. And, you know, if she's just in love with her man, that's not strong feminism. That's like weak, traditional, blah, blah, blah, you know. And like, that was kind of the heart of a lot of that conflict. I think in our conversation with Kara Kennedy, I was kind of falling in that camp of depending on how the third movie ends, I could see some of those complaints being a little bit valid. But I also look at like Arrival and what a fucking incredible character Denis Villeneuve highlights with the main, you know, the main role in Arrival.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Like, I think he's more than capable of spearheading a story about a strong, well rounded character like a woman like Chani. And I'm really excited to see how he handles it. My one concern is just the movies are, are so long. And if this movie is like three hours, how much of that runtime are we spending getting back to effectively the very first page of Dune Messiah, where they're back together again.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And then how long is the movie after that? But Denis has already made some really phenomenal changes to the story. Besides, of course, I will never let this die. Kynes death, I think was like a terrible, terrible change. I think the lack of Fenring, awful hate that, you know, not even the

[Abu]

lack, the cutting out of Fenring doesn't exist. He's there on tape somewhere.

[Leo]

Man, what a bummer. So beside those two specific changes, I think Denis basically at this point has proven that whatever he's changing, whatever he's doing, he's doing for a very good reason that's going to yield a great movie. And if it doesn't, like, I really don't think it's not going to. I think it's going to be a phenomenal movie and I'm happy to have a conversation about it once it's out. And we can then talk more broadly about the character of Chani and how she may have changed, but giving her that sort of more of a perspective from within the Fremen culture of Paul as this outside. I think all of that's so good and so important today that I'm just, I'm glad that he's making that change so broadly. Yeah, I think we're good and I'm just so excited. I mean, I think Timothy has talked about playing an older version of Paul in interviews. And I'm so fucking stoked to get like slightly older, more commanding Timothee Chalamet who's becomes like a blindless, scary God piloting ornithopter.

[Abu]

Sure.

[Leo]

Space Hitler. You know, I think, I think it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be a good time. So I'm, I'm stoked and I trust Denito.

[Abu]

Yeah. And you know, you know what I'll say. I definitely think we should reread Messiah and release an episode leading up to the film. Looking back at Dune Messiah through the lens of a film adaptation. Because it's interesting that you say that a lot happens in Messiah and I'm kind of like, it's a pretty bare bones book. Like you could, you could bang that out in a 90 minute movie. And if you want to do like a two and a half hour movie, you got some room to play with there. You could add more to Messiah outside of the confines of what's on the page. Maybe that's just my impression. You know, I'm sort of second guessing myself now. Maybe I need to reread Messiah to realize like, oh wait, there's a lot here that you actually have to get on screen. And that's going to be tough. So I think it's worth a revisit of Messiah and maybe doing another episode on it through the lens of, like, leading up to the movie.

[Leo]

Dear listener Abu, every time I say anything, he goes, you know, this is a great excuse to go back. We should probably reread Messiah. Let's spend another couple hours working on Messiah.

[Abu]

Look, I've been pitching you on doing an audio drama of Messiah. Look, I'll go back to. I'll find any excuse to go back to Dune Messiah.

[Leo]

What's that? You had a bagel with cream cheese this morning. You know, that makes me think we should probably revisit Messiah when we're done with chapter S. Let's just do Messiah again.

[Abu]

Why not run it back?

[Leo]

Run it back.

[Abu]

It's a great question from our patron Pullman, though. And I think this is kind of a huge question that's lingering over part three for a lot of folks in the Dune fandom. It just all depends on how Denis Villeneuve and the crew handle it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay, let's move on to our next question. This one is also from another patron, not a robot. AI in our Discord wrote, quote, I'm definitely curious about your or anyone else's ideas about why the great houses are so small. These are families that have been the ruling class of the galaxy for thousands of years. How come there aren't hundreds of Atreides scattered around the Empire, married into other families and with cadet branches? How can a whole great house be destroyed? By killing one duke and his immediate family and retainers? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, and listen, great question. One that, for sure, I think a lot of people walked out of the theater going, wait, that was a great house. And it's gone now. What's happening? We got two people out in the fucking desert and that's all that's left of this great house. How many people were in that great house? And this is also something that I think a lot of sci fi and fantasy stories gloss on. Oh, yeah, you hear about House Stark. How many people are in House Stark? And then the Red Wedding happens and you're like, wait, is this everyone? Oftentimes authors. And I think Frank is in this camp as well. Don't take the time to be like, here's a roster of every person who lives on the planet and their various allegiances. Right. I think there are some ways in which you kind of just have to accept that what happened to Arcane is what it is. And however unbelievable that is, you just kind of suspend disbelief and you go well, yeah, it was a really fucking big palace with a lot of people in it, and they all died. And then there's all the people in the mountains from the artillery, you know, that whole thing happened. I think the instinct, of course, is that, of course, after thousands of years, 10,000 years, for some of these great houses, there would be blood relatives all over the Imperium. Cousins. I mean, half of the great houses are actually cousins to one another, but. But also like stepchildren and bastards and illegitimate heirs, you know, for sure, heads of houses are out here fucking just.

[Abu]

Oh, they be fucking pumping out kids.

[Leo]

So of course there would be corners of the galaxy, maybe even for great houses, endless struggles of succession and politics and who's gonna take over and that sort of thing. But that stuff just isn't part of the main series. So we have some room to speculate a little bit today. What comes to mind for you? How do you approach answering this question?

[Abu]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting that you brought up Game of Thrones as your gut instinct reaction there because I think George R.R. martin actually does handle feudal succession drama quite well, and it becomes a big part of many of his stories. A Night of the Seven Kingdoms is airing right now on HBO as we're recording this. And a big part of that novella series is the Blackfyre rebellion. This bastard Targaryen that was legitimized and that started this whole civil war within the Targaryens of succession to the throne, et cetera, et cetera. George R.R. martin, I think, is particularly interested in succession battles and how that works in a feudal system. Frank Herbert, I think not so much. Rabban not once ever voices his displeasure that Feyd, the younger kid, is chosen as heir by the baron. Right. But I think it is safe to assume that the great houses are larger than they seem in these books.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Because we spend all of our time. We've said this countless times on the show. These stories are concerned with the top 1% of the top 1% of people in the Imperium. We basically never find ourselves interacting with the everyday person in these stories outside of one off scenes and chapters here and there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So I think for me, it's easy to imagine that there are many distant relatives out there and perhaps these distant relatives end up taking cushy jobs. You know, this one becomes a regional governor of this area of the planet and maybe this one takes an administrative role to support the so and so policies over here. And I think that is probably where most of a family's members sort of end up. They assist the house in day to day operations and sort of end up in either cushy jobs or important jobs, or they don't, you know, they just kind of disappear into nothingness and choose not to be part of that system. Yeah, but I think power clearly lies in like sort of a central line that the house, the family, agrees or fights over and ultimately decides this is where the succession lies. This is that this is the family line. And as always, the encyclopedia does shine some light on this for us and answers some questions about succession. Here's a quote from the entry about great houses in the encyclopedia. Quote, the official representative of each house was the head of the household, generally a hereditary position. Although some families elected their heads from among family membership at large or from certain specific lines. Other clans practiced variant forms of succession, such as House Al Qair, in which the head of house was automatically the eldest surviving member of the family. End quote.

[Leo]

Well, I feel like that guarantees fast turn.

[Abu]

A lot of succession changes constantly.

[Leo]

Yeah, because you're like, oh my God, he died in a. Whatever. You go, okay, who's next? And you go, well, they're also in their mid-80s. You're like, oh, okay, so another three or four years.

[Abu]

Yeah, you're really setting yourself up for a lot of turnover every couple of years.

[Leo]

But they're like, don't worry, we die young. Sweet. Cool.

[Abu]

So I didn't pull the quote here, but the entry does go on to explain that these heads of houses, the folks that are elected, however the family decides to elect them, they are a literal embodiment of the great House and its power within the Landsraad. And the entry goes on to talk about these rare edge cases where heads of houses have been tried for treason or crimes or whatever.

[Leo]

Sure, sure, sure, yeah. Use of atomics or.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

Breaking of Conley, you know.

[Abu]

Exactly. There have been edge cases where heads of houses are brought to court, they're tried, and they're punished with exile or execution. And this will effectively, end quote, unquote, end that house, even if other relatives are still alive. If you cut off the head, you're ending the house itself. So to very directly answer not a robot AI's question here, I think the way that House Atreides is quote, unquote, wiped out in the book is not because every single living Atreides relative across the Imperium is hunted down and killed and there are no more Atreides left, but it's because the head, the elected head of House Atreides which is Duke Leto and his elected heir Paul were, as far as anyone is aware, quote unquote, killed. And that ends the House's political power in the Landsraad. Until everyone comes together and politics and backstabs their way to electing a new head of House for the Atreides family, the Atreides effectively don't exist. So that perhaps is how this House comes to an end, quote, unquote, by just killing a few people.

[Leo]

Also, almost guaranteedly, it would be. Shaddam just goes, hey, look, all of the assets in the planet and all of the owned stuff of House Atreides is forfeit to the Empire because they didn't successfully pass down power.

[Abu]

It's on you to figure out the succession y' all fucked up.

[Leo]

So who wants it? You know, and they could then give it to. As a gift to some, hey, you're in charge of Caladan now. Because I need someone to run Caladan.

[Abu]

Yeah, great point.

[Leo]

Because when I was approaching this, kind of thinking about it, of course there are kind of two things that I think are important, but even before I get to those, I think it's worth noting this is feudalistic, but it is still future. We are still far in the future. This is not like Game of Thrones, where everyone's kind of figuring shit out and it's going to be kind of messy, you know, oh, he's the half son of so and so. Does that mean he was right to blah, blah, blah. This is in a world that's like post, post capitalism. These. I almost think of the great houses, like companies and CEOs and charters, and it's all so legally bound. And so you got conventions and laws and dictates. Even in the example you brought up earlier of like, House Harkonnen, Baron Harkonnen, no direct children. So he has to petition Shaddam. He doesn't. He asked. He says, oh, I'm going to make Fade my heir. But he still, to Fenring's point, oh, Shaddam has to give the okay for that to even be allowed.

[Abu]

Like a company would. It would all be written in legalese.

[Leo]

You have like, the Federal Trade Commission being like, we don't like that. No, no, no. Because Abelard or whatever, Feyd's father was exiled for xyz, no, we're not going to allow it. But realistically, more likely, Shaddam just uses that as a carrot to make sure that Baron always does what he wants him to do. So I wanted to point out that I think in some ways you're absolutely right. Because what we could have gotten is more of that from Fenring Baron could have gone, oh, but isn't that an old charter and whatever. We could have gotten a lot more of that. Frank demonstrated he wasn't super interested in writing about it because he just didn't write more about it. There was a one off comment and then they left it. And that was more about signaling Shaddam's power than exploring the nuances of how power is handed down from one to the other. It was kind of brushed away. But this kind of leads to the two points that I wanted to point out. One, I think that in this like far future time, almost every house, as the Dune encyclopedia is explaining, has like very clear rules about succession, very well established by people who are inherently interested in keeping control. So you say, okay, someone less honorable than the Red Duke is out there fucking, and there's all these bastards and whatever, blah blah, blah, and can one of them become head of house? All you need is something in the charter that says no, and if so, blah, blah blah, the Shaddam gets everything, you know, and then that's just not an option anymore. But also, I think as power collects around small groups of people splintering off, I think we are also seeing the sort of like anti fair market like competition that happens in late stage capitalism. Like now that you have the targets, the Walmarts, the Amazons, it's hard to like get to that level as like a mom and pop shop. It's just not going to happen.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

Can you imagine someone being like knocking on the door of the Landsraad, being like, hi, I want to be in the Landsraad, please. You know, and they'd be like, no, fuck you, we're taking your planet. You know, Conley,

[Abu]

totally.

[Leo]

So I, I get the impression that the Landsraad's not kind to young blood. So we're talking about old power institutions because new ones just aren't that common now. The second thing I wanted to point out is another element that is often forgotten about in these conversations because we're talking about the great houses, but we cannot talk about the great houses without also talking about the Bene Gesserit who were there the whole fucking time controlling everything. They have been there since before the Spacing Guild, making sure that the reins of power that they want to be holding are easy to hold. And you can imagine they would be steering every person's decision through their, you know, advice as truthsayers and advisors and concubines and wives. They are guiding the power into small, easily controllable pockets so that they can proceed without too much uncertainty. So I just wanted to point that out too. A big, messy power system is not beneficial to the Bene Gesserit, so it is less likely to exist at any stage of human development where the Bene Gesserit are as influential as they have been. What a great question. Hadn't really thought about it myself.

[Abu]

Great question. A lot of this is speculation and a lot of this is Dune encyclopedia. Again, Frank himself was not writing about succession squabbles, but I think it's all in line with what Frank did write about. Like the Fenring example that you gave.

[Leo]

Yeah, it takes one degree of abstraction, but I think Frank wrote kind of loose and messy so that we could fill in these gaps with the broader powers and, like, pressures that he's introduced.

[Abu]

Yeah, definitely.

[Leo]

All right, that leads us to our next question from patron mickrac. The ways people can communicate between planets in the Dune universe has never been clear to me. From a narrative standpoint, it makes sense. We don't spend time describing people reading their email, but does digital communication exist in any way? Obviously messengers are used and that keeps truthsayers employed. But is that all? Herbert often features someone documenting or transcribing on Shigawire. So are there interplanetary Shigawire mailman? Is there a more immediate way to call home? Like Ab Sybils in the Ender's Game universe? End quote. And I don't remember.

[Abu]

I don't remember absibils in Ender's Game either. But I only read the first two books. But the question still stands from Mick.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Is there, like, text messaging? Is there email in the Dune universe? How are people, like, talking day to day when it isn't top secret Reverend mothers sending, like, shipping off to each other and no ships to send secret messages.

[Leo]

Yeah. When I'm like, hey, Claire B, you up? How am I sending that exactly?

[Abu]

How are the booty calls going out in the Dune universe? It cannot be D strands messages all the time. You know, it's too slow.

[Leo]

Messengers knocks on your door and they're like. They go into their memory trance. They're like, they said, you're fucking hot. They love the shape of your legs. Anyway, do you have a message for them? Please say no, I want to go home. I haven't seen my family.

[Abu]

For D Strands, messenger is like, I'm stuck in this awful sexting conversation. Oh, my God.

[Leo]

You're like, okay, I'm going to draw a picture of My genitals. I want you to memorize the picture and then tell them about that.

[Abu]

You could just retrace this dick pic for the person who. I intend to receive it. Thanks, man.

[Leo]

They didn't send any words, they just sent a picture. One second.

[Abu]

The true heroes of Dune. The dick pic messengers, hand delivering drawings of dicks.

[Leo]

That's so good.

[Abu]

No, that is not what's happening happening for the average person in the Dune universe. We covered this actually a long, long time ago in our Tech of Dune episode and in our Holtzman episode. But near instantaneous interstellar communication does exist in the Dune universe. And it's all thanks to our boy Holtzman and his incredible scientific discoveries and the technology that he passed on to humanity. But I also want to acknowledge that make is correct. Frank does not spend a whole lot of time in these books talking about the forms of communication in the Imperium. There are not scenes of people checking their emails or responding to casual texts. Which when you think about it, to be fair, even those two things would kind of have been a foreign concept to Frank in the 60s and 70s.

[Leo]

I mean, true, yeah, I looked it up.

[Abu]

SMS wasn't invented until the 80s. So like the idea of a casual text or a sextant, I don't think, I mean, like telegrams existed, I guess

[Leo]

you could like fax things.

[Abu]

You could fax things, sure. But the idea of like I can hit send and it'll pop up on your phone in like four seconds, that I think would have been a relatively foreign concept even to Frank as he was writing this. But thanks to Holtzman, that does exist. You can send near instantaneous messages across the galaxy in the Dune universe. And I think it's, for what it's worth, in these latter books, in Heretics and in Chapter House, there are a lot of references to Duncan, like reading files and pulling up things on the Gnoship computer. And even the Mother superiors, Taraza and o', Draid, will get reports uploaded to their office computers that they have to check up on and whatever. And presumably somebody is sending those reports, right? Somebody, Belanda from Archives or whatever, is writing up a report and emailing it to Mother Superior o' Draid to look over and approve later. Obviously those aren't exact one to one references to email or texting, but the idea does exist that messages can be sent from one person to another digitally in some way.

[Leo]

I will also say in 2026, it's really hard to imagine this sort of technology existing without thinking machines and without computers. But I think it's worth noting that that is true, at least for me, because I could not, if my life depended on it, tell you how, like, radio signals work. And I think that there are more analog technologies that if you said, hey, I'm going to take this analog technology that doesn't use any computers at all, but you augment it with 40,000 years of technological advancement and Holtzman technology, faster than light, Holtzmann technology, you could have things that are indistinguishable from, like, an email server that don't involve any kind of cpu. And how is that possible? I don't fucking know. I don't live 40,000 years from now with Holtzman engines. Like, I don't know, man. Yeah, so I think that that's also a piece here.

[Abu]

That's a good point.

[Leo]

Sometimes when you're looking at this, you go, yeah, but how could she have a hollow. I thought that in the Dune movie, when we saw the hologram planet with the maps.

[Abu]

Right, right.

[Leo]

And you go, how are they doing that without any technology? Because by the time of Odrade and Terrazza, we are far enough removed, and we are in the back rooms of the Bene Gesserit, so we might even see, like, thinking machine computers and stuff.

[Abu]

Theaters are around.

[Leo]

Who the fuck cares? It's the Bene Gesserit secret rooms on their home planet. They're not abiding by the great convention. And we know even Leto relied on some, like, questionable technology.

[Abu]

He was using, like, transcribers to write his diary. You know, he was using, like, dictation on his iPhone.

[Leo]

Yeah. And he's like, it won't let me say. It just keeps saying ducking. I'm so ducking. Type. No ducking. Duck historians.

[Abu]

What did he mean by ducks? What could the ducks mean?

[Leo]

What do the ducks represent? So, yeah, I. I think that's also something that, as we kind of speculate and kind of put our minds in that groove of how do people communicate? It is worth mentioning that some of this technology would feel like just magic if you didn't know how it worked from a basic level. And Frank was kind of into ham radios and analog shit, so I also imagine he could probably tell you how they communicated. But as you pointed out, it's not like Piter Devry University sits down at his terminal, presses a button to connect the synapses of the network that we don't get.

[Abu]

Get that.

[Leo]

So we just kind of have to go, yeah, it works.

[Abu]

You know, as lore nerds, sure. We're asking These questions. But of course, how fucking boring would that be to read, you know, like in the actual story itself? So, you know, I think Frank is telling his story. He's not overly concerned with the exact specifics of the world building beyond it being interesting to the story itself to wrap up and to sort of put a bow on our response to Mick's question. I think ultimately it's not hard to imagine that some sort of electronic email, texting style communication exists in the Imperium. Certainly by the time of heretics and chapter house, when we are so far removed from the Butlerian Jihad, so far removed from the great convention that the idea of technology is not so evil anymore. I think also the reality is that just imagine trying to run an intergalactic empire of this scale without robust instantaneous communication. How the fuck would you even manage commerce at this scale across thousands of planets? How would Choam even exist?

[Leo]

Solaris have a standard value? No way.

[Abu]

No way. So even if we had no other evidence, the very existence of an Imperium of this scale implies communication. On the other hand, I think it's also worth acknowledging that secrecy and subtlety are key in an Imperium where everybody is politicking and plotting and backstabbing constantly. So I do find it interesting that Frank always defaults to more encrypted, more secure forms of communication, like a D strands messenger. A person you're sending with this encoded D strands message. Or a truthsayer verifying what a human messenger delivers to you as go to methods for people in power. Because you. You certainly don't want like a signal gate situation happening where somebody like accidentally texts Atreides war plans to the wrong person.

[Leo]

I added a Richesian reporter to my signal chat.

[Abu]

Oh, God damn it.

[Leo]

You know, it happens, you know, Right?

[Abu]

Yeah. Imagine the Baron accidentally texting the wrong person. The attack on Arakeen.

[Leo]

Oh my God. Yeah, but it was two hours before. It's fine. It's fine.

[Abu]

So in my head canon, like the people in power default to slower, more secure forms of communication because it's safer to do so.

[Leo]

Yeah. Again, we're following the top 1% of the top 1% with the most important of the most important secret plans within planets. So of course they're using like. Use your memory, Trance. And she's like, I wrote. I recorded a voice memo of the whole thing. We can't trust voice memos. Yeah, my dad. You fucking trust apple, stupid. Now recite. And that can be any Reverend Mother. That's the impression I have of some Reverend Mother. Well, we are going to take one last break before we come back and we end on some fun off topic questions. Don't go anywhere. Dear listener, I worked so hard, so hard on one of my answers to one of these. Don't miss it. I'll be so offended. We'll see you soon. You thought this was your run club era. Turns out it was more of a thinking about Run club era. The good news, Someone's marathon training is about to start. Sell your workout gear on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll

[Abu]

take care of the rest. They get their race day fit and

[Leo]

you get a payout for trying. Someone on Depop wants what you've got. Start selling now, Depop. Where taste recognizes taste.

[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. All right, to round out the episode, let's touch on some fun off topic questions that y' all submitted, starting with a question from patron Matthias. Quote, what would your ideal Dune theme park attraction be? End quote. Attraction or attractions? Matthias is leaving it open for many attractions. And I only say that because you wrote a novel, Trouble in response to this question.

[Leo]

That S did a lot of lifting for me. Had there been no S, I would have felt more restrained. But there was an S. There was

[Abu]

an S. Ideal theme park.

[Leo]

Attractions.

[Abu]

Attractions.

[Leo]

Don't tempt me with a good time, Matthias.

[Abu]

Oh my goodness. Okay, so how about I go first because I had a very simple response to this question and then our listeners can enjoy your wonderful response. I perhaps am the most boring person alive and so I don't really care that much for theme parks. I've been to theme parks in my life. My parents took me as kids, have gone as an adult. I've had fun. I don't hate them or anything. I'm just not overjoyed by them or whatever. I don't love them or anything. That being said, here's my bitch. For a theme park attraction based on Dune, I think it would be very fun for there to be some sort of build your own Chris snipe experience akin to the lightsaber building that you get to do at Disney. That was my favorite part of going to Disney, the ceremony. I got emotional. It was very fun. My lightsaber is purple, by the way. I think it would be fun to have some sort of experience. It's like multi stage. Maybe you enter the first room and you get to sort of scavenge a worm's tooth from a carcass. Maybe there's a big fake carcass in

[Leo]

the room and walk without rhythm to it.

[Abu]

You walk without rhythm to it. You pick, you chisel out a little tooth, and you get a raw tooth to work with. And then you go to the next room. And maybe in this room, there's a bunch of, like, woodworking equipment or whatever. And you, like, purify and polish and sand down the tooth into the final shape of your crysknife.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that's, you know, maybe there's, like, sacred Fremen rituals that you undergo. The instructors, like, help you do that.

[Leo]

You pay with water rings. Yeah.

[Abu]

You know, very dune themed. Maybe in the third room, there's, like, a bloodletting ceremony. That one speaks for itself. And then finally in the fourth room,

[Leo]

man, the health code on this fucking theme park is out of control.

[Abu]

And the fourth room, like, very much like the lightsaber thing. Maybe you get to customize your hilt and your sheath or your cryst knife. You get to pick certain parts and build it and finally assemble what will become your final crysknife. And maybe in your final ceremony, the nabe, the Disney employee dressed up as a knave gives you the final words of the ceremony, and you sheathe your crysknife, and you can't unsheathe it ever again without drawing blood. I think that would be fun. I would be very immersed in that. And you walk away with a very special prop that you get to sort of build yourself.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, that's great. I love that idea.

[Abu]

What about you?

[Leo]

The what about you? Yeah. So welcome to Leo Wiggins dune theme park, folks. Well, once I started thinking about it, I was like, oh, this is so much fun. So here's the thing. I am a huge fan of both elaborate theme parks. I think it's really fun to see, like, Disney imagineers get to work, how much they consider every inch of the experience. I love that shit. It's like immersive 3D art. It's so cool. I'm all about it. But I also love those dumpy, shitty little county fairs. You know, the ones that, like, appear overnight and they have, like, a bunch of shitty stalls and everyone there hates being there. But it's kind of fun to just get, like, an overpriced mixed drink and walk around and, like, fucking look at the things I. So I'm gonna give two categories of answer. The first category is gonna be those kind of, like, pop up shop, like, small county fair attractions. Okay. I don't know if anyone's ever seen. I hope that this is a pretty universal reference. But, you know, those, like, I don't Even know the name of them. But like the phantasmo, the fortune teller.

[Abu]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

You know like coin operated. It's got one of those creepy automatons inside and you put in the two quarters and it's like the future.

[Abu]

The opening scene of Bioshock Infinite for anyone who's played that game.

[Leo]

A thousand. Exactly. Yeah. So I want a Leito 2 God Emperor Tyrant box that does the same sort of thing you like, you deposit some like trinket, like a Solaris coin or it's like coin operated and gives you like sassy predictions. And you goes, oh, Moneo told me about you. You've asked for this and this is what I say. You know, that's the thing. But it needs to be kind of like herky jerky. Okay, love that. Okay, along the same lines, Gaius Helen Truth sayer machine. So you hold on to two diodes and it shows you your like heart rate and then it asks you like hard questions and you have to answer the hard questions while keeping your heart rate low. So you can trick the truthsayer machine.

[Abu]

Can you trick the truth?

[Leo]

Can you, can you get by the test? You know a hunter seeker stall where you get to throw hunter seeker needles at like, you know, like the balloon walls, but instead of balloons, they're the vital organs of noblemen and noble women. So you're like throwing the, you know like hunter seekering trying to fucking get them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then if you pop three balloons or something, you get to a head of house token because you eliminated that person or something. And then the final one I had in this camp, although I do, I see some great thoughts in our chat which I do want to shout out. Maybe once I'm done we can go through some of the good suggestions we see. The final one I wrote in this category is a Duncan Idaho rock claw. Oh my God. So you have to climb a little like it's like a bouldering.

[Abu]

This is an extremely PG13 park.

[Leo]

It's extremely R rated because at the top of the wall is the Nayla orgasm button. So when you're climbing up the rock wall, you hit that button and Nayla has her orgasm. You get a prize. And the prize is you get to shoot a bridge with a lase gun or something.

[Abu]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

Okay. So that's category one, right? That's kind of like the pop up things, they're not as immersive. They're not like rides. It's just little like, you know. And you could mix other things in there too, right? Like you could have like a massage chair dog corner where there's a couple of massage chair dogs and stuff like that. Like you can have. Sure. But a little bit more theme park coded. Right. We're thinking Universal. We're thinking Six Flags or Disney World or any of those.

[Abu]

Big money.

[Leo]

Yeah. Kind of big budget too. I imagine a like Cirque du Soleil style acrobat variety show called like the Tleilaxu Face dancer extraordinaire. Something like that. They do spot on impressions. They do contortionist acts and that sort of thing.

[Abu]

So fun.

[Leo]

While you're there, pick up a poinda popcorn bucket. You know, you're not part of the Yekt of Jandala, but you sure can enjoy some butter popcorn in your poinda bucket.

[Abu]

That's right. Only 12.99.

[Leo]

Only it's 12.99 if you're a member, if you remember.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

If you're not, it's like $600. Now, obviously, obviously, the second we talk about this, there's a shy hulude.

[Abu]

Of course, yeah.

[Leo]

Has to happen. But I was thinking, like, what would make it really special and not just like a glorified. You're like in a roller coaster that looks like a worm. So I was like, okay, what if they had custom harnesses that actually had you upright in that sort of like iconic warm riding pose, the stance holding the two maker's hooks that you get to like hold. And then as it's like going through the sand dunes and up and down, there are like spice blows that go off and you get wafted with like cinnamon smell. And then maybe a third of the way through the ride, you start having spice vision. So the whole ride gets trippy because you're hitting so much natural spice. That's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking with that shy hulu roller coaster.

[Abu]

Okay. Yep.

[Leo]

Then we have. I was thinking about like, you know, I think they have this at the Star wars park, but you know, like the TIE Fighter experience or like where you get into a big booth and you're like inside a ship and it's like.

[Abu]

Yeah, the Millennium Falcon ride does this.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or back in. I went to university near Disneyland, we had the Indiana Jones Jeep, where you're like in the Indiana Jones Jeep, so that sort of thing. Ornithopter escape, where you are stealing a Harkonnen ornithopter during the Arakene Assault night and you have to pilot it and then maybe the other person's on like gunner duty and you have to like escape the arcane. And it's that like full immersive, you know, shaking thing. Very fun. And then finally, just as I just said, like kind of a cherry on the top. You have to get around the park somehow. They have shuttles that get you from ride to ride or area to area. I imagine these are driven by like cast members who like play up the like, oh, we're Bene Gesserit of secret rank and like, you know, that kind of thing. Like they're all in character. That's of thing. And like one shuttle a day is driven by none other than Claire. And you get to chat up the best driver on Chapter House. And it would be like, for people who know, like super fans get on the bus and they see that like dark skinned, pinch faced little man and you're like, holy shit, it's the Clareby shuttle. And then you get to like, maybe get a commemorative stand or you get

[Abu]

like a little postcard or something. That does run the risk of getting a little racist. Racist, but from the wrong person, you know. Hi, are you Claire Be.

[Leo]

No, no, I'm just a different person. I'm just another dark skinned person. I was gonna say we're already dodging some, some legal problems with the like, names, like Disney cast members. Like, I'm the name. And you're like, you look Irish, right? I'm the palest knave you've ever seen. You're right. Yeah. People go, it's Claire B. And it's like, no, that's just a

[Abu]

black guy here with his daughter.

[Leo]

He's not even driving. Clare me, Can I get a picture?

[Abu]

Clara me, please?

[Leo]

Oh my God, I'm just black. Jesus. Clara me has a daughter.

[Abu]

Dad or.

[Leo]

I was also thinking it would be very fun if like it was someone who's just like young, you know, stubble, like kind of house of trade. But it turns out it's. And you talk to him and you go, oh, you don't look like the normal driver. You talk to him. And it turns out it's a character actor playing a young Duke Layton Atreides, who's getting his pilot's license.

[Abu]

Yeah, cute.

[Leo]

And so I was like, I like the idea of the shuttles themselves being like immersive storytelling, but also an opportunity for little hidden Easter eggs for super fans to find throughout the day.

[Abu]

I think there's a lot of fun to be had with potential cast members and the types of costumes and roles that the workers take on to maximize the Immersiveness for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. And then each part of the park can be the different planets. You know, your planet Arrakis, part of the park. You can be on Kaiten Again, Gamont, only 18 plus for Gamma, that sort of thing. So those were my amazing job.

[Abu]

This is truly astounding. Legitimately, I say this unironically. If there was a market for a dune theme park, you could pitch this and probably get. Get all of this approved on some level with some feedback from some fucking executives.

[Leo]

But they're like mixed feelings on the.

[Abu]

I think the clarity thing, I will say probably would get shot down. But all of these others are honestly so well thought out that you did a stellar job here.

[Leo]

Oh, thank you. And I think along those lines, I'm seeing great comments in the chat. So just as a quick moment going back to. Alphonse says, riding the worm. Of course, Alphonse, you have to. You couldn't have it without it. We've got adept Charon lays gun tag.

[Abu]

So cute. Hell yeah.

[Leo]

So good. I love that. And then occasionally, maybe because they clarified no shields allowed inside, but also you could even have that as a thing where if, like, occasionally someone activates a shield and if you shoot someone who has a shield activated, everyone loses, which adds that degree of like. You have to be very careful when you're firing who you're firing at. Love that. That's super cool. Smartshmello says yes. I'm all about food at this.

[Abu]

Oh, the food theme possibilities are endless. Oh, my goodness.

[Leo]

You get your slig sausages on a stick. You get your, I don't know, Water of Life and it's like blue slushy. Like vodka. Yeah, like, like vodka, tequila. Avoid the tyrants.

[Abu]

Flipper. Oh my God, so good.

[Leo]

Like you have. I'm imagining the like, elimination challenge with the big padded flippers and you're like having to dodge the thrashing worm as you. It's like a wipeout course. Yeah. And you're getting from one side of his padded chamber to the other. Get there without getting smushed by.

[Abu]

Escape the God emperor and live.

[Leo]

So excellent, excellent, excellent. Ooh, Smashmellow says ruins of sietch to burr excavation. Like those fool's gold finding attractions.

[Abu]

Oh, my goodness.

[Leo]

The Dar es Balat exhibit where you get to like, like an escape room style thing where you find the chamber, the spice chamber with Leto's message. And maybe they customize it as you're in the thing so it'll be like, leo, I knew you'd be here. And you're like, holy. That's so cool.

[Abu]

How did the. How did the God Emperor know I'd be here?

[Leo]

How do you know? Oh, yeah, I signed in.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

I also like Dylan Loops. I want my tarot cards from the arc.

[Abu]

Of course.

[Leo]

The merch.

[Abu]

Think of the merch.

[Leo]

Oh, and the. And then there's like sand dancers at the. Near the merch things and it's all like, yeah, exhaustion.

[Abu]

They keep collapsing.

[Leo]

The preacher shows up every 45 minutes and he goes, heed my words, you idiots. And you get to just enjoy that little show as you're munching on. Oh, right. So cool.

[Abu]

A nine year old half worm boy shows up. The immersion could be unreal.

[Leo]

Moving faster than you can see. And you're like, he's K in body Kohla, not Kwan. Damn. God, I'm so hyped on this idea. I want it so bad.

[Abu]

Wow, what a great. Matthias, thank you so much for opening that can of worms. I think we could really build out this theme park. At least. You could and I could. Yes. And all of your ideas. This would be so fun.

[Leo]

It'd be fun to come back to that or something akin to that with a guest sometime. Like, very low stakes. Just like fun. Let's. Let's rip on this.

[Abu]

I bet old Shift X could come up with some killer merch ideas and some.

[Leo]

He'd be so good at that. My God.

[Abu]

All right, folks, that wraps it up for today's mailbag episode. Thank you to everyone who hung around in the live chat here on YouTube. That's something we do for patrons when we record episodes. So if you're interested in joining future live discussions, consider signing up to be a patron. We have a bit of homework for you folks before we wrap up. As we always do. We are nearing the end of this book and here's what you got to read next. To be prepared for the next book club episode, make sure that you have read chapters 34, 35, and 36. If your copy of the book is slightly different from ours, then just read through the chapter that ends on this quote. But seeing Odrade's plan told him he would lose bleep one way or another. End quote. I had to bleep myself there, folks, because that is a huge spoiler if I actually read that quote.

[Leo]

Wow. Yeah. The first time in book club history that it has been so, so read

[Abu]

up until the end of that sentence or the end of chapter 36.

[Leo]

I guess you'll know it when you'll know it.

[Abu]

When you get to it. That's what we'll be covering in the next book club episode.

[Leo]

Indeed. Well, before we let you go, dear listeners, we want to remind you of a few ways you can help support the show. Keep in touch with us. And of course, the two best ways to support us is one, to become a patron [e-mail] Gom Jabbar. The other is of course to get some dune themed swag at gomjabbar shop. Those links are in the show notes. As a reminder, we have Project Re analog, a secret thing we are hard at work on building out. And Fremen Nabes and above are hearing about this semi regularly. We're talking about it, we're getting feedback, we're going to put out some surveys, things like that. If that sounds interesting to you. If you want to know what's next for us, in addition to Gom Jabbar, consider becoming a Fremen Nabe.

[Abu]

And of course, we'd love to hear from you. This mailbag episode could not have happened without your emails. So email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts, send us future questions that we can include in future mailbag episodes. And of course, you must pay the cute pet tax. All pets are cute. So include a picture of your pet. We'd love to see your little critters. Yeah, they're all so wonderful.

[Leo]

Indeed they are. And I gotta say it, this is the last episode I'll ever record in the United States. Oh, well, you know, I might record something in like November when I'm visiting family and Thanksgiving. But like, I mean as a living,

[Abu]

living resident of the United States.

[Leo]

Yeah. Because I'll be dead.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Really, I emphasize the wrong word, living as a living president. Because next time you'll be undead. Buddy. We're dying. We're coming back.

[Abu]

I'm testing this hunter seeker prototype for the game, you know, for the amusement park.

[Leo]

But it's a real underseek. It's a real under zinger. And I've not worked out the kit. Thanks. I should not try it. I'm going to last recording from my current apartment. So next time you see me, dear listeners, next time I'm on camera, I'm gonna be in France. So wish me luck. Wish me a good old bon chance indeed. And I wish you.

[Abu]

We wish you a happy move. And we expect you to be eating a croissant in every recording from now on.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or a baguette.

[Abu]

Baguette.

[Leo]

Can I, can I, can I switch Can I alternate?

[Abu]

Sure. I think we'll allow it. I'll consult the listeners in discord. We'll think about it.

[Leo]

Okay, we'll do a poll. Which French food should Leo be eating on at all times? At all times. I thought I would lose weight moving to fr. Weirdly, I'm super fat now. Oh no. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word in Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And also be sure to check out the other shows on the War Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Path. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistants Assistance assistance. Switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Abu]

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[Leo]

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