Mailbag: Kwisatz Haderachs, Divided Gods, Our Favorite Characters and More

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Episode: Mailbag: Kwisatz Haderachs, Divided Gods, Our Favorite Characters and More
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Release Date: November 29, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging mailbag episode, hosts Abu and Leo delve into listener-submitted questions, focusing primarily on Heretics of Dune while also touching upon broader Dune lore. Balancing deep analysis with light-hearted banter, the hosts navigate through complex themes and offer insightful perspectives for both long-time fans and newcomers to the Dune universe.

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Listener Questions and Discussions

1. The Bene Gesserit's Fear of a New Kwisatz Haderach

Timestamp: [07:17]
Eli, a Patreon supporter, poses a thought-provoking question:
"Why are the Bene Gesserit so afraid that the Duncan Ghola could be a Kwisatz Haderach and ruin them all over again?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Abu acknowledges the trauma caused by Leto II's 4,000-year reign, emphasizing that the Bene Gesserit are "deeply traumatized" by previous unforeseen outcomes ([10:28]).
• Leo adds that each Kwisatz Haderach is "unprecedented and unpredictable," making the Bene Gesserit cautious about future possibilities ([10:48]).
• The hosts explore theories on how advancements in human evolution and Tleilaxu technologies might influence the nature of a new Kwisatz Haderach, potentially introducing "super prescience" or other unforeseen powers ([15:03]).

Notable Quote:

Abu: "They are going to remember that in their archives, in their teachings... and that kind of trauma doesn't easily go away."
[12:11]

2. Belief System of the Divided God

Timestamp: [19:21]
David Gonzalez asks:
"I'd love to know more about the belief system around the divided God. What's the relation with the earlier religious beliefs around Paul? How did it emerge after the events of God Emperor? How widespread is it? Beyond Rakis? Do they worship sand trout?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Abu and Leo discuss the challenges of expanding lore without definitive sources like the Dune Encyclopedia, leading them to make safe assumptions based on textual breadcrumbs ([20:16]).
• The Hosts infer that the Church of the Divided God likely worships the Atreides, particularly Paul and Leto II, viewing them as "holy figures" ([22:06]).
• They critique the stagnation and corruption within the religious institutions, aligning with Frank Herbert's themes on the consolidation of power and the pitfalls of religious dogma ([25:42]).

Notable Quote:

Leo: "It's not that it is a unique and meaningful faith. It's just another power grab with this, like, a veneer of Atreides verbiage."
[26:34]

3. Top Dune Characters in All-Time Rankings

Timestamp: [31:53]
Sam Stetcher asks:
"Where would you put Miles Teg in all-time Dune character rankings? Excluding our boy Miles. Lol. For me, he is easily my favorite character of the series."

Discussion Highlights:

• Abu presents his top five Dune characters, including Duke Leto Atreides, Miles Teg, Farad'n, Darwy Odrade, and Rogue Malky.
• Leo shares his list featuring Count Hasmir Fenring, Beejaz, Miles Teg, Leto II, and Darwy Odrade, emphasizing their influence and complexity within the saga.
• The hosts engage in a playful debate over rankings, highlighting the nuanced personalities and contributions of each character.

Notable Quote:

Abu: "Duke Leto, Atreides. He's the OG Oscar Isaac crushed it. You can't top that beard."
[33:01]

4. Top Dune-Inspired Pet Names

Timestamp: [42:35]
Michelle B. inquires:
"What would your top Dune character names be for a pet?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Abu and Leo categorize pet names into dogs, cats, and fish, suggesting names like Chani, Albertus, Wencissia, and Edric.
• They emphasize the nicknameability and personality alignment with the characters, making names both meaningful and fun.
• The discussion includes playful interactions about the feasibility and creativity of these names, reflecting their deep connection with the Dune universe.

Notable Quote:

Abu: "Chani, Come here, Chani. Sit, Johnny. Yeah, I think it also a big thing for nicknameability."
[44:46]

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Rapid Fire Responses

To accommodate more questions, Abu and Leo introduce a rapid-fire segment, briefly addressing several additional inquiries:

1. Bene Gesserit Proliferation:

   • BL asks about the increase in Reverend Mothers between God Emperor and Heretics of Dune.
   • Abu explains that the shift in narrative focus to the Bene Gesserit naturally reveals more of them, rather than an actual increase in their numbers ([55:57]).

2. Shuang Yu's Communication with Sandworms:

   • Daniel Dion questions how Shuang Yu controls and communicates with sandworms.
   • Hosts propose theories involving connections to Leto II's consciousness and genetic heritage, though they acknowledge the uncertainty ([58:07]).

3. Horny Matres Motivation:

   • David Gonzalez wonders why the Honored Matres exhibit high sexual activity.
   • The hosts humorously connect it to the combination of power, allure, and Frank Herbert's exploration of sexuality as a theme ([59:29]).

4. Tleilaxu Society's Religious Evolution:

   • A listener asks about the Tleilaxu's shift towards religious hyper-structure in Heretics of Dune.
   • Abu attributes it to Frank Herbert's expanded world-building in later books, distinct from earlier portrayals ([61:37]).

5. Bene Gesserit Commands in Non-Understood Languages:

   • MooseHunter11b queries if the Bene Gesserit's Voice works when addressing someone who doesn’t understand their language.
   • The hosts conclude that understanding is necessary for effective use of the Voice, aligning commands with comprehension ([64:00]).

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Conclusion

Abu and Leo wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to support the podcast through patronage and merchandise. They emphasize the importance of community interaction, welcoming more questions, and maintaining an open dialogue through email, Discord, and Patreon. The hosts sign off with playful mentions of Dune-themed humor and reminders to spread the word about the podcast.

Final Notable Quote:

Leo: "Remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe."
[68:52]

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Key Takeaways

• Deep Lore Analysis: The hosts provide thoughtful insights into complex Dune themes, especially regarding the Bene Gesserit and the implications of a new Kwisatz Haderach.
• Engaged Community: Active listener participation through Patreon and other platforms enhances the depth and relevance of discussions.
• Humorous Banter: Light-hearted interactions and jokes keep the episode entertaining while delivering substantial content.
• Creative Engagement: Segments like pet name suggestions and rapid-fire questions showcase the hosts' creativity and passion for the Dune universe.

For those seeking a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Dune lore, this mailbag episode of Gom Jabbar offers both depth and enjoyment, making it a valuable resource for fans at all levels.

Transcript

[A]

Today on the show, hot on the heels of the Atreides Manifesto, there's a new document we need to show the universe. It's a document of your messages and questions to us. Today's a mailbag episode, folks.

[B]

Yes, it is. And we're the authors of it.

[A]

What?

[B]

What?

[A]

I'm your daughter.

[B]

I always suspected.

[A]

This is what you moaned into your lover's ear when you conceived.

[B]

Oh, that's just the synopsis of the Digimon movie. You were moaning that during sex. Crazy.

[A]

You don't.

[B]

Fair. Fair point. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We will be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[A]

And my name's Abu.

[B]

Oh, and today on the show.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

It's a mailbag.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Is that you, Shuang Yu? That's right, that's right.

[A]

I got some questions for you. That's right, folks. It's a mailbag episode today. Specifically today's mailbag episode is Heretics of Dune focused. We always like to take breaks in our book club series to just take a breather and process the chapters that we've covered thus far. So we're about a third of the way through the book. We're taking a break. We're going to answer your questions both about Heretics of Dune, but also about Dune lore at large.

[B]

Yeah, it's a good sign that we're not so lost. You know, naturally, I think if we got to this point in the book and people are like, bombarding us with like, basic what's happening, who's who, that sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I think that means our coverage is bad. So the fact that this time we're like, hey, submit your questions and it's generally pretty light stuff. Great. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, I think that's a sign that we're doing an okay job.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

But before we get too far into it, let's make Shout Out Mapes proud and take care of housekeeping. Now, today's conversation will contain spoilers up through, well, God, Emperor of Dune and heretics. But luckily you're. This is the book club. I mean, you're. You're caught up. And if you're not. What are you doing? Yeah, what are you. What are you. What are you even doing?

[A]

Get out there.

[B]

Get out there. Read that book. Out there, outside. Read the book. Get some sunshine. Read the Book sunshine.

[A]

Book time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Please do both of those things. Very important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, at the top of the show, as always, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Rob Silver, Roman Cabalo, Jonathan Lambert, and C.R. spruella. Gentlemen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much for your generosity. You are the foundation upon which this heretical podcast is built.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

And we could not do it without you. But of course, we couldn't do it without all of our patrons and all of our listeners, so our gratitude extends to them as well.

[B]

Indeed it does. So here's the game plan for today's episode. This is a mailbag. You know the drill. You sent us questions via email or discord or you commented on the Patreon post, and we're going to tackle a bunch of them today. Now, if your question didn't make it into today's episode, never fear. We, of course have these mailbags regularly. You can check the book club schedule to see when the next one is. Or hey, just ask us in discord. Say, hey, I had a question. And either one of us will respond or someone else will. It's a good community. It's fun.

[A]

That's right. And look, before we crack open your questions and answer them, I need some water. So let's take a break. Let's take a sip of water. Let's hydrate.

[B]

Okay? Uh huh. Uh huh.

[A]

And we'll see you in a minute with today's mailbag. Yep, refreshing.

[B]

Oh, wait, I need another one. We still need to take a break.

[A]

It has to be a longer ad break. Keep going, keep sipping, keep sipping.

[B]

Sip, sip, sip. Longer sip, sip. This super polite frat frat house, right? Sip, sip, picky up.

[A]

Respect women.

[B]

Hell yeah, I would join that house. That's great.

[A]

Hey, folks, Abu and Leo here from the Gom Jabbar podcast, here to tell you about another Dune podcast that we think you're gonna love.

[B]

It's called the official Dune Prophecy Podcast. It's from the fine folks at hbo. And of course, the HBO original series is going to be focusing on that shadowy sisterhood that of course becomes everyone's favorite Bene Gesserit.

[A]

On the companion podcast, hosts Greta Johnson and Ahmed Ali Akbar are going to guide you through every episode of the HBO Original Series and unpack each episode with guests from the show, including cast and crew.

[B]

So if you're listening to our podcast, Gom Jabbar, you're probably already a huge Dune fan. We think you'll enjoy the series and their companion podcast It's a fresh take on an incredible universe and we're all going to go places we've never seen before.

[A]

That's right. And if you're a podcast listener, you know the drill. Listen to the official Dune Prophecy Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to stream new episodes of the HBO original series Dune Prophecy, exclusively on max.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Get stoked for all the holly jolly vibes this season at Dutch Bros. Stay cozy with returning winter faves, Hazelnut Truffle Mocha and Candy Cane mocha. Plus, the new Winter Shimmer Rebel energy drink blends up sweet cream and blue razz flavor with soft top and Shimmer sprinks to keep those spirits energized all winter long. Download the Dutch Bros app to find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards. Welcome back everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Hope you sipped some water right along with us. H2O Our first question today comes from Eli and this was a Patreon comment. Eli wrote, quote, why are the Bene Gesserit so afraid that the Duncan Gola could be a Kwisatz Haderach and ruin them all over again? Back in Dune Messiah, we got the reveal that the Bene Tleilax had made their own and the social environment of the galaxy has changed drastically since then. So it's not as if male with a Reverend Mother's training is a one of a kind universe changing danger anymore. End quote.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Definitely an interesting question, especially because we have so many chapters where Shuang Yu is damn near losing her mind over the possibility that Duncan will be more than they can handle. Right?

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely worth spending some time theorizing on this. I don't think there is a rock solid answer. Shuang Yu's not out here explaining explicitly what her fears are to us, but I think we can connect some dots and probably come to a reasonable explanation for this. To start, Eli is absolutely correct in this question that the shape of the universe that we are reading about in Heretics of Dune has been dramatically changed by Leto ii.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Leto II spent thousands of years creating these safeguards against any being like him ever rising to power again, Right? Specifically, if you'll recall, back in God Emperor, we learned that he bred humanity from Siona to basically invalidate the concept of prescience as this all controlling superpower so there could be no more Paul Atreides being able to control and see all the futures.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He also allowed for the Creation of certain Ixian and Tleilaxu technologies to help break this monopoly on spice. It's the reason we have no ships now in heretics of Dune. It's the reason we have Ixian mechanical navigation computers versus the Spacing Guild's monopoly on interstellar travel. So that raises the question, naturally, as Eli has raised, why do we care so much about a Kwisatz Haderach? If a Kwisatz Haderach is born today in heretics of Dune, will they even be that special? Given what Leto II has put in place to safeguard against those abilities? It's worth theorizing on it, and I think there are a couple of important things to consider.

[B]

Yeah, it is very worth remembering how much everything's changed each time, because even bringing up the Bene Tleilax ghola, that was pre Paul, and that ghola took its own life because it just couldn't deal with what it was seeing and understanding. Then Paul comes around, changes the universe, but nowhere near what Leto II did. And we can see, part of that was his attachment to Chani, and part of that was the fact that he was the first of his kind. And then Leto, too, with Paul there, not only literally as the preacher, but also as his other memory, Paul. Leto, too, of course, was. You're right. He set up safeguards so that another God Emperor, another tyrant, couldn't happen again.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But it's also worth remembering that, like every Kwisatz Haderach that arose was unprecedented in some way and was unpredictable in some way. And this goes to the trauma of Leto, too. You could have probably said, hey, Paul was a Kwisatz Haderach, so what's the harm of. Of another Kwisatz Haderach. And then fucking leto II sprang. 4000 years of tyranny on the universe. A deeply traumatic thing for everyone, every human in the universe. That's right. It's crazy how close the Bene Gesserit got to extinction under Leto's thumb. And again, this was unanticipated. They literally made Leto II in the shadow of Paul Muad'Dib Atreides.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think that is what Shuang Yu is when we're talking about that sort of trauma. Personally, that's kind of where my mind goes. Right. Like, Shuang Yu is going, well, we have not once predicted how powerful and capable they would be. Every time we've been caught off guard. Let's not do it again. Right, right.

[A]

Totally. I mean, I went back to God Emperor of Dune, and, you'll recall there was a chapter full of Bene Gesserit reports that kind of gave us exposition on where the universe is. And this quote in particular really stuck out to me. It really shows us how much the Bene Gesserit during Leto's rule, had to grovel and demean themselves before the God Emperor.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Quote. Only by the most stringent controls were we able to maintain the level of Reverend Mothers during this reporting period. Our protests are not answered. In response to a direct question from Sister Chenua, the Lord Leto said, be thankful for what you have. This warning is duly noted here. We have transmitted a gracious letter of thankfulness to the Lord Leto. End quote.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, that's the Bene Gesserit, folks.

[B]

That's fucking nuts. Be thankful for what you have.

[A]

But again, they practically had no choice in the matter lay to was all powerful and all controlling by this point. So that is a deeply traumatic event for not just all of humanity, but the institution of the Bene Gesserit as well. Right. They're gonna fucking remember that in their archives, in their teachings, in their lessons, in their history, and in their actual literal other memories which they have access to. And that kind of trauma doesn't easily go away. So thinking about Shuang Yu and her fears, it starts to make sense why she would be so fearful of another Leito two rising to power. And I'm sure to this day, a thousand plus years after Leito II is gone, his rule still plays a factor in the decisions that the Bene Gesserit makes now. You know, yeah, it's a pretty conservative approach, but it makes sense. Like a new Kwisatz Haderach might not be as powerful and may not matter in this universe, but are we willing to take that fucking chance again?

[B]

Yeah. It's a great point about the other memory, because I think when you look at like, the institutionalized fear of abomination with the Bene Gesserit, we see a pattern of the things that they are worried about. They remember and document and catalog and then fixate on more than any other people in the universe. Oh, yeah, and if you say, hey, the universe all suffered under Leto too, the Bene Gesserit are going to be the most cognizant of that suffering and the most presently aware of it today because of other memory and because of how they internalize all of their history, I absolutely can understand them being cautious. Not to mention another consideration here is that humanity has continued to evolve. Right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Consider Duncan Idaho, one of the galaxy's Greatest swordsman in 10191 AG gets fucking decked by a bureaucrat in God, Emperor of Dune. He's like, I'm the greatest warrior.

[A]

300 year old Bornado.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he's like 80, but yeah, might as well be, right? But. But still, in his older years, he's slower and old and he's like, fucking take that, whippersnapper. Like, what the fuck? So, like, that is a. That is a quiet indication that in the 3,000 years following Dune and the first Kwisatz Hatteraick, and technically also kind of the second Kwisatz Haderach, there has been a huge leap forward in the human genome. People are faster, faster, reflexes stronger, living a lot longer now, right? Tag is almost 400 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think there's a big question of if there were a Kwisatz Haderach now, what even would they be capable of, Right? Like Leto II has safeguarded against someone like himself. But Leto, too is a child from the year 10,200 ish. You know, this is not 10,200 anymore.

[A]

No.

[B]

We are far in the future. And in fact, the Bene Tleilax are making these Duncan Gholas to reflect modern human capabilities. So, yeah, we don't even know. Maybe there would be super prescience, right? Maybe some new unanticipated power that. Bear in mind, if it's a type of prescience, Leto wouldn't have seen it, wouldn't have known how to protect against it. Who knows? Yeah. Especially coming from the Benny Tleilax who put all sorts of fucking superpowers. And they're like. And he's a poet, and he's got USB ports.

[A]

Wait, being a poet is a superpower?

[B]

I think it's a superpower. You kidding me? Spitting some hot poetry. People are like, damn, what's your Venmo? I'll send you $35. Yeah, 35.

[A]

Should I get into poetry?

[B]

You should get into. It's where all the money's at. Dude.

[A]

All the money is in poetry. Yeah, that's a really excellent point. I mean, this isn't Kansas anymore, right? This is a totally different universe, thanks to Lito2, but also because of the advancements that the other civilizations in the Imperium have made, humanity is no longer the humanity we knew in Paul Atreides time. So who's to say that a Kwisatz Haderach of today wouldn't have super prescience? They could see even more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is to say they wouldn't have fucking laser eyes like Superman or be able to plug in a USB on the first try. Like, absolutely insane shit that has never made its way into humanity's genome before. And Chuang Yu's like, let's not take that risk. We don't want to make a fucking Super Saiyan 3 Kwisat's Haderach.

[B]

His hair is going to be to his ankles.

[A]

It's crazy. Where's it coming from? And I will say, like, we are actually getting hints of some of this too, right? Like, sure, we are here theorizing based on what we know in response to Eli's question, but we have already had discussions in the book so far about how the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres are looking for some way to crack the code of no ships. How are you able to track no ships? And we know that much of the Dune universe, rather than relying on technology, will rely on biology. And there's a world in which this current Duncan Gola that we meet in this book, plays some sort of role and unlocks some sort of ability to track no ships. Maybe he's like a fucking human radar that tracks no ships and gives the Bene Gesserit a massive tactical advantage against the Honor Matres. That is an ability that no regular ass Kwisatz Haderach 1.0 like Paul Atreides would have been able to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So who knows? We really don't know what the power set is that we are playing with here in this universe. It's all new. So expect the unexpected.

[B]

Totally expect the unexpected should be the sort of mantra of Dune in the latter stages. Like, I mean, did you expect Leto to cover himself in sand amoebas?

[A]

No.

[B]

No, no, no. So expect the unexpected. My money's on no. All of my chips are on no. Well, excellent question, Eli. Hope that helps. Next up, we have a Patreon comment from David Gonzalez. David wrote, quote, I'd love to know more about the belief system around the divided God. What's the relation with the earlier religious beliefs around Paul? How did it emerge after the events of God Emperor? How widespread is it? Beyond rakis? Do they worship sand trout? End quote. Great question, David. Let's talk about it.

[A]

Great question, David. And honestly, something that I'd like to know as well.

[B]

I know, David. Do you have the answer? David, your turn. Go, David.

[A]

Sos, please. Help. Yeah. Reverse Uno. This is back on you. Actually, David, you have to figure this one out. No. So we did some research and unfortunately, the reality is because we don't have the Dune Encyclopedia to give us fun, expanded lore. All we have to work off is what's in the book itself. And there is, like, little to no information about the actual belief system of the Church of the Divided God in Heretics of Dune or in any of the other books beyond, like, little throwaway lines that we get from the likes of Tuek or Dormund or Steros, many of which we've already covered in our book club series so far. We can't glean some basic information from these throwaway lines. Right. We can make some safe assumptions from the breadcrumbs that we're given.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For example, we discussed a few episodes ago how Paul, Jessica and Leto have been canonized as some sort of holy triumvirate of Heaven. So we can assume that this church worships the Atreides and in particular, Paul and Leto as some sort of gods or messiahs. They are holy figures in this religion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We can also safely assume that many other aspects of Atreides history, things that the Atreides are linked to, have also become sacred. And in fact, we're told directly that the Church appears to have a complete copy of this history. In Leto's own words, quote from that holy hoard. The priesthood possessed God's own voice, his printed words, and even holo photos. Did Leto put selfies in his journals?

[B]

I'm now realizing here's a cute one. Outfit of the day outfit. Hashtag brat summer.

[A]

Well, sorry, that thought just hit me. Continuing with the quote. Everything was explained, and they knew that the desert surface of Rakis reproduced the original form of the planet the way it looked in the beginning when it was the only source of the holy spice. End quote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I share that quote because the number of times the word holy is tacked onto something. Right. The Holy Horde, AKA Leto's journals that were found at Dar Es below the holy spice, AKA Milaj. Clearly, everything and anything around the Atreides has become sacred in this, the holy.

[B]

Uncreased Jordans that conferred the transfer of power. The holy napkin that Leto wiped his face on.

[A]

Absolutely. So we can make some safe assumptions here. The Atreides are worshipped by the Church of the Divided God. In particular, they view Leto II as a God, capital G God. And clearly many of their teachings and lessons are pulled from what we have read in the previous four books. The history of the Atreides themselves, their rise and fall.

[B]

I think a lot of that's also shaped a little bit by Leto and the way that he positioned himself as I am, the same holiness that came from my Father before me. And in fact, every Atreides manifest within me. You know, the various tricks he did where he would speak with voice and stuff like that.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Contributing to the idea that Paul, from whom Leto arose and Jessica, from whom Paul arose are this continuous line of holiness.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

God's born on earth, you know.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But I also wanted to point out here that, like, we also see already in this book a lot of interpretation happening from the high priests. Right. Like, we see Headley Tuek basically going, well, those big impossible to answer questions were answered by high priests shortly after, you know, after Leto's death. And this was decided by those people. And that was decided by those people. Very clearly there is flexibility in the interpretation. I mean, point in case, there is the apocrypha. There is the collection of holy words from his holiness that are maybe inconvenient for people trying to count.

[A]

Right. Never think about it.

[B]

The holophoto of Waito with both of his long silvery middle fingers up going, fuck religion. Religion's the worst. They're like, apocrypha. He never said that. Don't look at that picture.

[A]

Exactly. We're picking and choosing, clearly a ton.

[B]

Of picking and choosing. And again, probably a little bit on the behest of the Bene Gesserit, quietly in the shadows. I get the impression they are involved in some of that myth making. And also because, yeah, look at how the high priests of Fracas are in power and look at the fear that the desert people have of the priesthood. The priesthood has become somewhat tyrannical and has become somewhat powerful. And I think that is not happening accidentally. I think many of the people involved are basically like crime. Crime lords who are like, using the religion as a means of grabbing power, as often is the case.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

And it's also between that kind of tyranny and the fear that the people have of them, and also the religious institution and the stagnation of beliefs and clinging to. How did someone answer that question a thousand years ago? That's the answer today. That's sort of like belief stagnation. There is a sort of delicious irony there where we know so many of Leto's writings were like, hey, don't do that right here. They're doing exactly that. Despite his literal words. They're like, oh, apocrypha. That's all of. That's apocrypha. I mean, it really does seem like the Church is fully corrupted by politics, by power, by greed. You Know that sort of.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That sort of stuff. And all of that is to the T. Frank's warnings about religious institutions. Right. And power being too consolidated and all of that, like this just seems to be the same old pattern. Yeah, exactly. Happening again. But that also explains a little bit why maybe we don't get a crazy in depth exploration and explanation of the dogma of the Church of the Divided God. Because it's kind of just the same old pattern again. And the point is not that it is a unique and meaningful faith. It's just another power grab with this, like, veneer of Atreides verbiage and mapping these like, common patterns to the words that they happen to have from Dara Splat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Frank's not getting into specifics because the specifics don't matter. It is the broader pattern and it's this impact on humanity and these lessons that he's focusing on that don't really require specifics. Because, again, the more general you are when you describe a religious institution, the more you could kind of be talking about any religious institution. And I think that's the point.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. Yep. The Church of the Divided God, Wadib's religion, all of the things that we don't really know all that much about. Like how many times a day do they have to pray? Who cares? It doesn't matter. Frank is talking in general about religious institutions, about the risk of consolidation of power, and all of those big thematic ideas that Frank loves to toy with in the Dune saga. So to answer David's question, unfortunately, like, the answer is kind of, it doesn't matter what the specifics are unless it is thematically resonant to what Frank is saying. So we get little hints and breadcrumbs of what perhaps the Church of the Divided God believes in. But all we really need to know is that it's this corrupt religious institution that has succumbed to the seduction of power and that has consolidated power in itself and kind of lost sight of what it actually represents in the first place. All of the things we've always talked about with the ideas in Dune.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a great question from David nonetheless. I think it lets us revisit these ideas in a way that continues to expand our understanding of them and appreciate that Frank continues to come back to them time and time again. Here we are, thousands of years later, beyond Muadib's religion and still pulling the same old shit.

[B]

Yeah, it would also be interesting too if we had more specifics to try to draw those sort of like red stringy lines from One data point of, oh, Korba said this in this ceremony. And then that saying has kind of survived thousands and thousands of years. And like, that sort of stuff would be really fun. And that's where I'm like, oh, it kind of would be fun to have some specifics, Frank, you don't have to be so, like, you know, restrained about it. Give us some fun world building stuff. And that's, of course, where the Dune encyclopedia sat for the first four books.

[A]

But Frank said, you'll get chair dogs and you'll be happy about it. That's the world building up.

[B]

Can we get some, like, specific details? Chair dogs? Oh, no, not that, Frank, please.

[A]

They eat and they poop.

[B]

They're eating their poop.

[A]

You want me to keep going?

[B]

Long chains of protein. They like being cuddle, like, Stop, Frank, no.

[A]

Swear in the shape of chairs.

[B]

Swear. Furniture.

[A]

It's like, Frank, stop with the world building.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

I've had enough, please.

[B]

Enough world building. Frank, back to your religious themes, please. Give us more sex shit. I don't care anymore. Just know, please. None of these furniture shaped animals.

[A]

Stop at the furniture.

[B]

Wait till you'll see my table hamsters. Oh, goodness.

[A]

Thank you so much for the great question, David. Always fun to dive deep into those big themes and ideas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, let's take a break. I truly need to process the words table hamster. Let's take a breather. Let's process those words together. But don't go anywhere, folks. We have more mailbag questions to answer.

[B]

Indeed we do.

[A]

So we'll see you in a minute. Come to me.

[B]

Focus Features invites you to succumb to the darkness. From director Robert Eggers comes a masterpiece of horror.

[A]

He is coming. This creature is a force more powerful than evil is death itself.

[B]

Nosferatu without parent Only in theaters Christmas Day special engagements in Dolby and IMAX. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info.

[A]

In places that could expose you to identity theft.

[B]

That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast terms apply. Welcome back, everybody. Oh, haven't looked for table hamsters online in a minute, but glad I still.

[A]

Have a deal right now if you jump on it quick.

[B]

They like being used as tables. Yes. Let's get to our next question and Our next question today is from Sam Stetcher. Another Patreon comment. Sam wrote, quote, where would you put Miles Tag in all time Dune character rankings?

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Excluding our boy Bronzo. Lol. For me, he is easily my favorite character of the series. And I can't wait to hear y'all talk about what happens later in the book. End quote. Sam, playing with fire. Friend playing with fire. What happens later in the book? I don't know. Haven't read it yet. Sam, calm down. But also same. Yeah, very good. So, Abu, I want to hear your top five Dune characters across the series.

[A]

Oh, good gravy. Okay, so this was incredibly tough.

[B]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

And I am going to hold the right to change this at any time on a whim.

[B]

Yeah, this is the answer on Wednesday.

[A]

Yeah, this is the. We're recording Wednesday, August 21st at 3:54pm Timestamp it, folks.

[B]

Yeah, because the answer is going to be different in two hours.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So that caveat having been said, here are my top five Dune characters across the whole Dune saga, across all six.

[B]

Of Frank's books presented by watchmojo.

[A]

Yeah, this should have been a sponsored segment. Anyway. Duke Leto, Atreides.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

He's the OG Oscar Isaac crushed it. You can't top that beard. I respect a man who respects the people that work with him. He inspired loyalty and he certainly inspired mine.

[B]

Also, anti fatigue pills. Hashtag Samequeen.

[A]

Popping left and right.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Next up, Miles Tag. Very high up in my rankings. I think he's an incredible character. I think the way he can tap dance and keep up with literally the best of the best reverend mothers out there, like Taraza and O'Draid. Incredible stuff. And for that, Miles Tag is high up in my rankings. Next up, I got Faradin. Okay. Because look, I love a guy who loves to read.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Faradin. Loves spending time in his library. I just relate to Faradin so much. He loves a good book. He doesn't want to deal with all of this responsibility as the next emperor bullshit. Don't involve me in any plots. Wencesia. Yeah, don't tell me about how many tigers you're using. I don't care. I'm going to go back to reading my book.

[B]

Also to. Doesn't seem like quite enough. Maybe three. Maybe three would be better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just saying.

[A]

Right? Just some feedback, Mom. Use more tigers. Also, I respect Farada for where he ended up, frankly. Like, he married a total babe. And from what we know in the Dune encyclopedia, they lived a very loving and generally Comfortable life together. He had excellent job security as the historian and scholar for Leto ii, the God Emperor. And frankly, he got to do what he loved for the rest of his life without the pressures of responsibility and without the pressures of anyone trying to assassinate him because he's the Emperor or whatever. Whatever, you know?

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

And so, I don't know. I think this guy, like, really hit a home run with life and sort of hacked life in a way where he got out better than most people do in the Dune universe. And for that, I gotta respect Farada.

[B]

Yeah. Good pick.

[A]

Next up, I'm gonna throw Darwy O'Draid in there. Another character we meet in in Heretics of Dune, another character that I can't talk too much about yet because we're still early in Heretics right now, but trust me, Daario Dre is gonna go down as a legendary Bene Gesserit. We meet a lot of Bene Gesserit characters over the course of the six books by Frank Herbert. Darwee easily tops most of them. She's a badass. I think some of her inherent character flaws make her one of the most compelling characters that Frank writes in all six of the books. And at the end of the day, she's very efficient and good at what she does and also incredibly endearing. And for those reasons, she makes my top five list.

[B]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

And this last spot I really struggled with. I put in, like, four or five names in here and then deleted them and then put in more. But at the end of the day, I gotta go with that rogue Melki.

[B]

What a ne'er do well. What an asshole.

[A]

What a ne'er do well. What an asshole. And, look, if you have the cojones to talk shit to the literal God Emperor of the known universe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I gotta give you props.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's out here scheming. If you listened to our little spice morsel about him from the Dune encyclopedia. We know that. He's so smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He helped install his mother in the leading council of the Ixians when He was, like, 9 years old or something. I'm not remembering that correctly, but his life has been incredible. He's a political genius. He's out here talking shit to the God Emperor's face and also earning the respect of the God Emperor. And that's an incredible double achievement. At the end of the day, I do think Leto, too, could probably count the people he respected and considered friends on one fucking flipper. And Mauki's on there.

[B]

Yeah. Plus, he, like, maybe seduced Moneo I'm still. I'm still keeping that headcanon alive.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he seduced many people. Moneo is just one on a long laundry list of people that Malky's Southern drawl seduced. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Malky fucks. There's no. That's not even a question.

[B]

True. Yep.

[A]

So that's my list again. Duke Leto, Atreides, Miles Tag, Farad and Darwio. Drade and Malky.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Top five. What about you?

[B]

Okay, well, in no particular order, and again, we are recording. It is Wednesday, August 12th now at 4:00pm So I reserve rights to change this. Talk to me at 5pm it might be different. First up, Count Hasmir. Fenring. My boy. My boy Fenring. Now, I want to reiterate. Fenring could have killed Paul at the end of Dune and then none of Dune happens, right?

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Like that's prime canon. He could have killed, fought and killed. Paul did not. The only reason we have five books is because of Fenring. He is the most. One of the single most influential characters in the books. I love him. Also, bisexual killer who is just so fucking awesome. Supports his hot wife. Everything's great about Fenring. What you say? Hell yeah, Malky.

[A]

Whoops, Sorry. Still thinking about my boy.

[B]

Still thinking about your point, Malky.

[A]

Hell yeah, Fenring.

[B]

Hell yeah. Yeah. Leah Seydoux. Your wife is Leah Seydoux? He's winning. Winning in life.

[A]

Easy.

[B]

Next up, Bee Jazz. I'm not justifying that answer. He's the best. No, I'll say. I think Bee Jazz is a tremendously fun character. He is. Like the fact that he's a Gola. He's a Zen Sunni philosopher. His scenes are so much fun. And he's such an interesting foil to the tone of Dune Messiah. I love Bee Jazz and I always forget how great he is until I reread Dune Messiah and then I'm just like, oh, another BE Jazz chapter. Fuck yeah. Like I just get the biggest smile on my face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whenever B. Jazz like cartwheels into the room, he's the best. After that, I've got Miles Tag as well. The top five list wouldn't be complete without him. He's great.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

And again, we have only scratched the surface of Miles Tagg. So very excited for the rest of this book. Next up, I've got Leto ii. Leto ii Atreides, The God Emperor himself. He fucking loves a TED Talk, but I just so happen to enjoy watching TED Talks. And I vibe with some of the Shit. He says, you know, he says some good, some thoughtful things. I also think that just for the end of Children of Dune, which is so much fun, it's fun to see him throw a 10 ton door. It's fun to see him just like whipping Alia around the room. Like, it is fun to have the desert demon Leto, Atreides and then God Emperor of Dune is such a weird, cool book that I really enjoy. I think Leto2 makes my list very easily.

[A]

Good pick.

[B]

Although that's kind of a. It's kind of a basic answer, but whatever, he's cool.

[A]

I was going to put Paul on here.

[B]

Paul's a great choice, actually. Paul as preacher is like, oh, my goodness. Is like. Actually, maybe he's on the list. Number six in my top five list. And then my number five is Darwee Odrade, because Odrade's awesome. Odrade is an excellent, excellent character. And we even saw in one of our recent book club episodes how quickly she's able to like, take control of the situation. And her relationship with Taraz is really cool. So even so far in the book, I think I already really like Teg and o'draid. And of course we're not spoiling anything, but they continue to be very likable throughout the book. So that's my list. Hasmir, Fenring, Beejaz, Miles, Tag, Leito two, and o'draid with a secret sixth spot.

[A]

Paul as the preacher.

[B]

Yeah, Paul as the preacher.

[A]

My secret sixth spot probably goes to Hui Nori, who I put on this list and removed from the list, like, no less.

[B]

I was surprised to not see her on your list.

[A]

Yeah, I really wanted to. I love Hui, but she just got beat out. You know, this is like the Olympics, really. You know, nobody here is like, really losing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you think about it, in like 100 meter dash, the person who comes in dead fucking last is still like probably the fastest person they know in their whole life. You know, like we're talking tenths of a second difference between, you know, first, second, third, fourth, and all the way to the last place. That's kind of how I'm thinking about this ranking. These are minuscule differences between the.

[B]

You're like, that guy is slow as fuck. Fastest guy on the continent he came from.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. I love the Olympics.

[B]

It's fun.

[A]

What a fun question. Thank you so much, Sam, for letting us gush about some of our favorite characters.

[B]

Indeed. Now our next question is excellent. This was so much fun. This was a discord message from Michelle B. Michelle wrote, quote, what would your top dune character names be for a pet?

[A]

Oh, goodness. I thought so long and hard about these.

[B]

I did not. But I still stand by my answers. So. Okay, hit us with your answers. Abu. Your top names for a pet. And I think we agreed we should categorize because, you know, that's a good name for a dog. That's a good name for a pet. Snake or whatever. Let's do dog, cat, and fish. Yeah, like. Like water.

[A]

I think that gives us some structure to work with. Michelle didn't clarify what pet exactly, although Michelle did share an absolutely gorgeous photo of her dog in the Discord, which we love.

[B]

What was her dog's name?

[A]

She didn't say the dog's name.

[B]

What?

[A]

Just shared a photo. Michelle, the dog. Yeah.

[B]

What the hell, Michelle, Follow up.

[A]

Please tell us the dog's name. Okay, so dog, catfish. I decided to break it down even further into male dog, female dog, male cat, female cat, just to get a couple of extra names in here. So for a female dog, I think the name Chani instantly strikes a chord with me, because the thing about dog names for me is I'm kind of weirded out by dogs that are just named like Chris. Like, why did you name your dog such a human name?

[B]

I have two friends who have dogs named Leo, and I'm like, thanks. What? I mean, it's like, after I was born, but I think before they met me, so I'm not taking it personally, but, like, Leo seems to be. But, yeah, when it's like, I got to get home. Leo's gonna be hungry.

[A]

It's, like, insane.

[B]

Oh, your fucking dog. Right? Sorry. I thought you were talking about a roommate or a human you're keeping captive. Like, what's happening?

[A]

Totally. I don't like that at all. Maybe that's a hot take. Sorry. To all the folks who have dogs named Chris out there.

[B]

Jeremy.

[A]

I think Chani is able to ride that sort of fine line. Like, obviously, I think Chani, and I think Chani, the character, the human. But for somebody who doesn't know, for a dog friend you make at the dog park with your beautiful dog Chani, that's cute.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

It's a fun name to sort of call out, right? Chani, Come here, Chani. Sit, Johnny. Yeah, I think it also a big thing for me is nicknameability when you're naming a pet. So I think a lot of nicknames can come from Johnny. A lot of things rhyme with Ani, you know, Johnny, Wanny, little, goofy little. Nicknames you could easily come up with. I think, I think for male dog I went with a bit of a curveball. But just because I think you could come up with so many cute nicknames for this Albertus. Oh, Alberta, as in Albertus, the guy who founded the Mentat school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Came up with Mentats.

[B]

You got like a collie or something. Like a really smart breed of dog, right?

[A]

Exactly, exactly. You read my mind. Like a smart breed of dog. Definitely. Like a medium sized dog. I can't. I don't see like a giant Samoyed or a Bernese Albertus. Maybe a Bernie.

[B]

I think, I think a Bernese mountain dog named Albertus with like a cute little like kerchief, like wearing around.

[A]

Oh, I'm seeing it.

[B]

And you call Alby for short.

[A]

And there you go. See, the nicknames just roll off the tongue. Albie.

[B]

Albs. Albus.

[A]

Oh my gosh, yes. Albu. Albi. Like a lot of fun nicknames can come from Albertus. You're. You're very unlikely, Bert, to call your dog Albertus all the time, but you're sure as fuck gonna call him Bert or Birdie or Albie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that would be cute. And again, not a name that you could really give to a human.

[B]

Generally speaking, when he's having a tantrum, you call him Angry Bird. Like the Angry Birds movie.

[A]

Exactly. Okay, moving on to cats.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a female cat, I went with Wences here because it just makes so much sense in my mind.

[B]

Yeah. The Laza tiger herself, she reincarnated in cat form.

[A]

Right. Wincissia is just so tied to cats in my mind already because of her character in the story. So I think a cat named Wincissi would be very cute. And cats kind of give off Wencissia energy. Yeah, a lot of the times. I mean, I love cats, but I generally do think like, if they had to, if they really wanted to take the throne, they would do it. So when Sissia for female cat, for male cat, I went with Headley. As in Headley Tuic.

[B]

Oh, love a Tuic.

[A]

I think again, I'm just like imagining like a cute black cat who you call like Headley Headley. Come here, buddy.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

It just, you're like typical high priestly ignored. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

What are you running a religion on a planet? Don't have time to cuddle.

[A]

Totally. So those two names just instantly fit for me. I liked those. And then finally to end it off, fish I didn't have to think twice about. I instantly just wrote this down and Never went back. Edric. Yeah, for any kind of fish. Male fish, female fish, androgynous fish, squid, sea cucumber.

[B]

Yeah, whatever it is.

[A]

Yeah, whatever it is, Edric, it has to be. It's the only character in Dune we know who lives in a tank. Okay. Those are my picks. I'm curious to hear yours. Dog Catfish.

[B]

Okay. I completely agree that. Especially for dogs, because you can call cats practice of futility. That is a waste of breath to call a cat to get its attention. Works for some cats. I'll be clear. Cat lovers out there, you know. Works for some cats.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Most cats do not give two shits if you want their attention. So I do think. I agree. Dog names should have some good, like, nicknames. So my first thought for a dog name, or the one that I kind of like, felt best about. Stilgar. Love the name Stilgar for a dog. Cause you mean a stilgar. You split it in half. You call him the first half or the last half, you know, Stilgar, Stil. My buddy's still.

[A]

You know what I'm imagining? Like, a mastiff, like some kind of, like, big. Some sort of hound maybe.

[B]

I just think a handsome dog. Like a really handsome. Because even like a. Like a. Like a. Like a brown lap or a golden retriever with, like, a nice, regal face, something like that has some pride to it, you know, could be a good stilgar. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, great name still.

[B]

And then the lady name, Shishakli. Oh, because you can be like, sheesh. No, because Shishakli, you know, it's a, I think, tip of the hat to Sohela Yacub. Right. Shishakli was a male character in the first Dune book, but lady character in Dune Part 2, and I loved her performance, and I liked her character a lot. I think Shishakli is a very pretty name and has lots of nicknameability, which, again, I think is very important for dogs. Now for cats, I again was tempted. Wincissy is a really good pick, so definitely came to mind as well. Instead, I went huinery. Because, you know, if you're gonna, like, cherish and love and just adore a cat and look at it and go, whoa, what a. Oh, what a great animal. What is just a beautiful. What a beaut. Having a beautiful name like Huyneri is perfect and also works because I feel like I would be one of those, you know, guards in the palace who's like, she's so pretty. But then I'd never talk to her, you know, like, owning a cat and then for boy cat name. I was thinking Duncan because kind of an asshole at times is the kind to get drunk and come home and yell at you because they think you betrayed them in some way.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But we do hear about Duncan's like cat like grace and reflexes and very like a powerful name. So I think if, if Duncan, my cat Duncan brought a dead bird back, I'd be like, typical Duncan, best sword master in the galaxy. You know, donkey, donkey bringing, bringing home the birdies, you know, why are you killing distrance? What message did that bird have? Sort of thing. I think Duncan's. Duncan's a good.

[A]

I really like Hui Nori because it. You could do the full name.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or it really, I think works as just Hui or as just Nori. Both of those really work well for cat names.

[B]

And also, you know when cats are like looking so photogenic and then you give them like chin scritches and they like lean their head into it and they just look like the most majestic, beautiful creature on the planet in that moment. Queenary. I'm like, that moment just like embodies, I think, who Huinari was made to be by the Tleilaxu.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

And then finally I had two picks for fish names. Not necessarily gendered or whatever, but just like two ideas. One, Sand Trout, which would be their full government name. Like, this is my fish, Sand Trout.

[A]

Right. That's what you put on the vet form.

[B]

That's the vet form. Sandtrout Wiggins. And then the. But casually they go by Sandy. So this is my fish Sandy. And then they go Sandy. You named him Sandy? Well, I named him Sand Trout because, you know. Yeah, but right, you know, Sandy for short.

[A]

So good beach vibes.

[B]

Beach vibes for sure. And then the other name that I came up with was Shout Out. I think Shout out is a really solid fish name. You could have a cool looking fish and name it Shout Out. And then people are like, what does it mean? And you're like, well, Dipper in Jacobsa. And they're like, whoa, it's a. Well, Dipper fish. Or whatever.

[A]

Okay, so yeah, I love it.

[B]

Sandy and. And Shoutout.

[A]

Those are good.

[B]

I guess you could Mapes. You could also just call them Mapes. Shout Out. Yeah, maybe I'm adding. I'm going to add to the script. Even though we're.

[A]

He's typing it right now in the script, folks.

[B]

Shout Out.

[A]

And we're probably never going to open this script again. But it's there for the record.

[B]

For the record. For Posterity.

[A]

For posterity. That's right.

[B]

So there you go. Dog, cat and fish.

[A]

Amazing. Good names, great names. I love Sandy. Sandy, Yeah, I might steal that in the future.

[B]

I was thinking I wanted to do like shy hulloud or something, but that's too worm. It's too like, it's a mouth dry and wormy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Sandy is great. Sandy, short for sand trout. It's funny.

[B]

Yeah. The government name of my fish is Sandra. Yeah, yeah. So excellent, excellent question. Really appreciate that. Michelle and I did just ping you in the channel. We want to know the name of your, your dog. So if you respond before we're done recording, we'll set the record straight. We might get a live answer, but we'll see. We'll see. Michelle, I hope you're checking, checking your discord mentions. Thank you, Michelle. Love that question. And for listeners out there, if you have some good picks, let us know what they are. That's the kind of thing I think would be great, especially because I do hope to get pets one day. It'd be nice to have a backlog of names to get through.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Up next, we've got a new kind of segment we're going to try here. Right now. As always in these mailbags, we take your questions, your comments and we do the research we need to do. We get into it, we talk through it, but that also limits the number of questions that we can get through. So we were thinking what if we do some rapid fire responses here and not doing too much elaboration, not getting too into it, but we wanted to take a chance to respond to more of your messages and what that looks like today is this sort of rapid fire section and we'll see how it goes. Yeah, and we'll do it in all of our mailbags. Could be fun.

[A]

Let us know if you like this sort of thing. Yeah, I know folks like our deep dives and they appreciate all the intense research we do for our episodes and none of that is ever going to change, of course.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

But we do want to try and squeeze in more questions into these mailbags and frankly we're kind of in the era of Dune lore where most things have answers and if they don't, it's just in the book and there isn't much expanded lore to do research on. So some of these answers are just like pretty straightforward because it's just in the book. So we're just going to try and blast through as many of these as we can and, and maybe in the Future, we elaborate on them if there's more to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so first up, we have a Patreon comment from bl. From user bl. It seems like there is a huge proliferation of reverent mothers just within the organizational structure of the Bene Gesserit. In the jump between God, Emperor and heretics, seems like we went from only a handful of pretty prominent hierarchical positions to it basically becoming part of the common progression for all sisters. Am I off base? Is that attributed to anything? End quote.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. BL great question. And to answer your question quickly, on the one hand, keep in mind these books are about the top 1% of the top 1% in a galaxy of trillions of people. So we are bound to have the impression that like, wow, is everyone a top performer? No, we're just following the interesting people. But also, BL keep in mind the scale of Dune. There are quintillions of people and hundreds of billions in the universe in this galaxy alone. It is almost guaranteed that even at the time of Dune, where we only knew one or two Reverend Mothers, there were oodles and oodles and oodles of them out in the galaxy that we were just not seeing because nothing was concentrated around the the Atreides that we see in Dune and Dune Messiah. We were watching Paul steal some shoes from House Corrino. We were not off following Bene Gesserit. So one of the things I would say attributes this sudden blossoming of Reverend Mothers is the fact that we are now reading Heretics of Dune, following the Bene Gesserit. So we are going to see a lot more. We're on the inside now, so we are seeing a lot more of them. That is probably one of the biggest contributing factors.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. We want to be careful not to succumb for a confirmation bias. Just because we are reading about more Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers does not mean there are more Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers. And we don't actually know what the statistical number of Bene Gesserit who become Reverend Mothers is. We aren't given that information. We're just following more of them. Because again, Heretics is a very Bene Gesserit story, whereas the previous books have been a very Atreides story indeed.

[B]

So that's our answer. BL, thank you for your comment. Next up, we have a Patreon comment from Daniel Dion. Oh my gosh. Kwis has Haderach himself, much to Shuang Yu's dismay. We have a Queezais Haderai Commenting. How do you think Shiana is controlling. Communicating with the worms? End quote.

[A]

Daniel, such a good question. And based on the reading so far, who knows?

[B]

Bluetooth?

[A]

Frankly, your guess is as good as ours because based on where we are in the book in heretics right now, we just don't know. My personal theory at the moment, my headcanon, is that maybe it's some sort of connection between the pearls of wisdom within all of the sandworms on Rakis, the little pearls of Leyto II's consciousness that maybe have some sort of connection to Shiana's heritage or her genetics. Because we know she is most likely a descendant of Siona and Duncan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thus an Atreides.

[B]

Or again, yeah, Pearls of Leto's consciousness. Maybe this is still part of his path and part of his golden path, where he is. He has them respond. Or he, his little piece of him is responding to this person who is so important for the future. Right, whatever. That looks exactly. Yeah.

[A]

There's two theories for you, Daniel, but we don't know.

[B]

It's a remote control.

[A]

Thank you so much for the pocket.

[B]

She has a play pause button. She just times it really well.

[A]

It's an RC controller. All right, next up, we have a Patreon comment from David, the altruistic misanthrope. Quote.

[B]

Excellent.

[A]

Why are the horny matres so horny? Not that it's a bad thing. End quote.

[B]

David, David, David, David, David. If you slinked around all day in tight latex all the time feeling good, looking good, you had a banging body like that of an athlete who retired but still retained many of your powers.

[A]

Yum.

[B]

You also would be trying to fuck all the time. I mean, it's just math. That's arithmetic, David. Also, Frank has an obsession with the sort of, like, line of violence and war and sexuality and kind of where those things start and stop the tension of violence as an expression of repressed sexuality and things like that. We are going to do a future episode at some point on that. But, yeah, on one hand, it's working for them. They're gonna keep doing it. They're gonna keep fucking doing great. They're conquering planets by having sex, David. It's. If it's working, they're gonna do. What are you. What are you doing, David? When is the last time you conquered a planet with sex, David? No, I didn't mean to get confrontational there. Wow. Just blacked out for a second. Okay, I'm going to take a breath. There's a theme. Frank Herbert's themes. So there you go. Great question, David. Next up, next up, Discord message from yet another Miles Tag clone. I am really wondering how much the Tleilaxu society has always been this hyper religious version of itself versus this being a post immortal Gola post God Emperor shift. It's possible Frank Herbert himself just didn't have them fleshed out before heretics. I feel like one of the only clues we get in Messiah is that they chose to make hate a Sufi philosopher, which does suggest something was already present. End quote.

[A]

Good question. Yet another Miles Teg clone. Yeah, I think the simple answer again, kind of relying on Occam's razor here. The simple answer most likely is that Frank just didn't have the Tleilag? Su fleshed out until he sat down to begin working on Heretics of Dune. Especially considering how much of it is like dramatically new stuff that was not sprinkled throughout the first books in any way that we could have connected dots to. That being said, as you pointed out in your question, the Tleilaxu do appear to have always had some sort of religious foundation underpinning their culture. But I think it's safe to say that the modern belief system that we see here in Heretics of Dune is massively shaped by the discovery of Gola technology and by the 3,000 year rule of Leto II. And so we could theorize about what their religion maybe was like before that, but I doubt it looked anything like it does today.

[B]

Yeah, and we have more to learn in Heretics about the Tleilaxu, which might give us additional clues. Can't talk too much about it yet. But I will also say that like the Dune Encyclopedia has a bunch of shit on the Tleilaxu and their religion and where maybe they came from and when their planet was settled and stuff like that. And again, the the Dune Encyclopedia, as much as it's not prime canon, was written with and containing and in between conversations with Frank Herbert who co signed the book or signed off on the book. So it's possible he had a lot of those questions answered at the time of the Dune Encyclopedia's authorship, but almost certainly he is adding details and adding a lot of the world building now in Heretics.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Okay, our last question here in the rapid fire section and the episode is a discord message from MooseHunter11b. Quote, if a Fremen only speaks Chakopsa, would an English command using the voice work? I know language is also one of the first things the Bene Gesserit learn. But I wonder if the command has to be in the language they understand or not. End quote.

[B]

Yeah, interesting question. Now, naturally, as we look at the lore, there aren't any instances of this, of a Bene Gesserit being like, give me the key to the cell, and the person being like, okay, no habloa ingles. But we do have to imagine, especially for nuanced commands of do this, or you need to go and you don't know, whatever. You have to be able to understand the command in order to follow it. Something like stop or like, a single word or something that could be communicated mostly through vocal tone alone maybe could work. But I think within that question, in that hypothetical, there's a bigger question of, like, how the Bene Gesserit sister was able to register the person they're trying to command, the Fremen they're trying to command without understanding the language they speak. Because you have to be able to understand who you're commanding for it to work. Again, the voice is not magic. It's subtle, psychological, biological. It is understanding what someone wants and how to get them to align their desires with yours. Like Frank said in many interviews, mothers use the voice all the time to make kids clean their room or to, you know, whatever, make you pick up your shit.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So the voice is not magic. Almost certainly you would have to understand what they are saying to be able to follow their orders, basically.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But, yeah, see, interesting question. And it would be very funny if you were like, give me the password. You're like, nah. Padon. Je ne compens. Je ne compens. Padant. And you're like, oh, God. Um, wait, let me get Google Translate. This is not going the way I expected it to.

[A]

Right? Then you have to voice through Google Translate. You have to open the app and you have to speak into it. Hilarious.

[B]

Excellent. Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, what would help with that is if Google Translate just came out with a voice app that just. It does the voice for you. You just tell it what language you know.

[B]

It'd be so useful. Google. Get on it.

[A]

Alas. The Butlerian Jihad.

[B]

Alas.

[A]

All right, Leo, that wraps up this Heretics of Dune mailbag episode. What a great set of questions from our listeners. I always enjoy these mailbags.

[B]

Yeah. Super fun. And again, I think the fact that people are not like, wait, I don't understand what that chapter was, means that we're doing an okay job. I'm going to tell myself that, whether or not it's true. But before we let you go. Dear listener, as we wrap up this episode, we want to remind you of some ways to support us and ways to keep in touch with us so your questions can be on future episodes. The first way, of course, the first two best ways of supporting us. On a watchmojo top two list of ways to support Gom Jabbar, we have one, becoming a patron and two, getting some dune themed swag from our merchandise store.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Those links are in the show notes and of course, make this show possible.

[A]

That's right. Also, my goodness, today's episode would not have happened if y'all didn't do this last part. We'd love to hear from you. So email us gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us cute pictures of your pets. Send it all to gomjabbarpodcastmail.com and a reminder, if we didn't get to your question today, not to worry. Continue emailing us, Continue dropping your questions in Discord and on Patreon, and we'll try to get you in the next one. We have another mailbag on the schedule for this book club series, so maybe we'll get you then.

[B]

Indeed we will. Now, if you were to combine. Okay, so we have chair dogs. We have table hamsters. Okay, what's.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know where you're at. You get what I'm saying? Yeah.

[A]

What animal would make the best furniture?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Bear couch.

[B]

Bear couch. What about like ottoman Capybara. No. Capybara ottoman. They're kind of ottoman shaped already, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Armadillo lockbox. Secure all your items within your armadillo lockbox.

[B]

That's cool. That's cool. Jellyfish nightlight.

[A]

Jellyfish nightlight. That's a great one.

[B]

Yeah. Bioluminescent mouse. Mouse. Oh, yeah. It took my brain way too long to. You can process those words.

[A]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and sponsors Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the lar party podcast network on larparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. And we are also on Tik Tok at Combar Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.